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UrinalCake
02-17-2014, 12:41 PM
As was mentioned in the post-game thread, the officials messed up the possession arrow in the second half, giving us the ball when it should have gone to Maryland.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/terrapins-insider/wp/2014/02/16/acc-acknowledges-jump-ball-error-in-terps-duke-game/

Without spending too much time discussing this particular mistake and its impact on the game, my question is, why does the possession arrow even exist? Why don't we do a jump ball like they do in the NBA? There must be a reason, but I've never heard one.

uh_no
02-17-2014, 12:52 PM
As was mentioned in the post-game thread, the officials messed up the possession arrow in the second half, giving us the ball when it should have gone to Maryland.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/terrapins-insider/wp/2014/02/16/acc-acknowledges-jump-ball-error-in-terps-duke-game/

Without spending too much time discussing this particular mistake and its impact on the game, my question is, why does the possession arrow even exist? Why don't we do a jump ball like they do in the NBA? There must be a reason, but I've never heard one.

I personally hate the NBA jump ball...it almost always ensures the team with a taller player gets possession....

I like to use the baylor women of the last few years when they had griner.....she was already dominant because she was bigger than everyone else....should we then give baylor even MORE of an advantage by allowing them to win every tie ball? personally I think alternating is more fair in that regard.

the main argument against alternating, is that it can decide the game down the stretch.....but that ignores the fact that if team A got possession down the stretch, than team B had gotten possession at some previous point.....of course that assumes that all possessions are created equally...which i'm not sure is entirely true, but I think the difference between a late possession and an early one is less than some people think....two points is two points whether it's scored with 35 minutes left or 35 seconds left.

that all said, the team that wins the jump is on average going to have slightly more than .5 possessions a game than the team that doesn't win the initial jump....rather than winning EVERY jump.

Jarhead
02-17-2014, 12:54 PM
As was mentioned in the post-game thread, the officials messed up the possession arrow in the second half, giving us the ball when it should have gone to Maryland.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/terrapins-insider/wp/2014/02/16/acc-acknowledges-jump-ball-error-in-terps-duke-game/

Without spending too much time discussing this particular mistake and its impact on the game, my question is, why does the possession arrow even exist? Why don't we do a jump ball like they do in the NBA? There must be a reason, but I've never heard one.

It was a very long time ago, but my recollection is that the officials screwed it up too often. At least, the rule makers thought that was so. It must have been too hard for the officials to toss the ball in the same way every time. http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/69.gif

Wander
02-17-2014, 12:56 PM
As was mentioned in the post-game thread, the officials messed up the possession arrow in the second half, giving us the ball when it should have gone to Maryland.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/terrapins-insider/wp/2014/02/16/acc-acknowledges-jump-ball-error-in-terps-duke-game/

Without spending too much time discussing this particular mistake and its impact on the game, my question is, why does the possession arrow even exist? Why don't we do a jump ball like they do in the NBA? There must be a reason, but I've never heard one.

Well, why is a jump ball better? The triggering event is both teams having equal possession of the ball, so it seems pretty reasonable to me to split awarding those possessions in a straight-up 50/50 manner.

DukeUsul
02-17-2014, 12:58 PM
Because then what else would Dick Vitale have to talk about?

pfrduke
02-17-2014, 01:06 PM
I like to use the baylor women of the last few years when they had griner.....she was already dominant because she was bigger than everyone else....should we then give baylor even MORE of an advantage by allowing them to win every tie ball? personally I think alternating is more fair in that regard.

If you followed the NBA method, Baylor would only win every tie ball that Griner is a part of. The teams don't get to choose their jumpers - instead it's the people who had joint possession that jump. That doesn't change your fundamental point, which is that the taller player involved in the tie-up likely wins the tip.

UrinalCake
02-17-2014, 01:17 PM
My complaint about the arrow is how it affects games at the very end. A team can play good defense to force a tie up and then have to give the ball right back. I don't agree that a possession with 30 minutes left is equal to a possession with 30 seconds. With 30 minutes left you can alter your strategy for the rest of the game according to the score, but on the last possession the game is done.

Let's say we're down by a point with a minute left and our opponent has the ball and the arrow. In this case, we're not even going to try to force a tie up because that would give them the ball right back. So we have to alter our defense based on the arrow. Whereas if we did a jump ball then we would play our normal aggressive defense and go after the ball.

Conversely, if we have the lead and the ball and the arrow then we don't need to worry so much about retaining possession. If a player gets into trouble he can just hold the ball and let the other team tie him up or foul him, without worrying about committing a turnover.

I also disagree that a jump ball rewards the taller player. Winning the jump is a combination of factors - height, vertical jumping ability, timing, and luck. A good percentage of the time I see both players miss the ball on the way up, then swat it on the way down, which means the shorter player could have won it with better timing. Yes, the taller/more athletic player does have an advantage, but that's kind of how basketball works.

gus
02-17-2014, 01:24 PM
As was mentioned in the post-game thread, the officials messed up the possession arrow in the second half, giving us the ball when it should have gone to Maryland.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/terrapins-insider/wp/2014/02/16/acc-acknowledges-jump-ball-error-in-terps-duke-game/

Without spending too much time discussing this particular mistake and its impact on the game, my question is, why does the possession arrow even exist? Why don't we do a jump ball like they do in the NBA? There must be a reason, but I've never heard one.

As an aside, everyone who complains about refs here should read the comments to this story and reflect a little.

Wander
02-17-2014, 01:32 PM
Let's say we're down by a point with a minute left and our opponent has the ball and the arrow. In this case, we're not even going to try to force a tie up because that would give them the ball right back. So we have to alter our defense based on the arrow. Whereas if we did a jump ball then we would play our normal aggressive defense and go after the ball.

Conversely, if we have the lead and the ball and the arrow then we don't need to worry so much about retaining possession. If a player gets into trouble he can just hold the ball and let the other team tie him up or foul him, without worrying about committing a turnover.

Maybe someone who's played basketball at a high level can correct me, but I don't think anyone really tries to force tie ups. They try for steals and blocks and poking the ball away and getting loose balls and sometimes this results in a tie up. I also can't remember ever seeing a team with the arrow intentionally surrendering a tie up - there are still many more bad things that can happen as a result of being trapped or having a defender get their hands on the ball than good things. So I don't think the possession arrow actually affects strategy that much.

Dev11
02-17-2014, 01:37 PM
My complaint about the arrow is how it affects games at the very end. A team can play good defense to force a tie up and then have to give the ball right back. I don't agree that a possession with 30 minutes left is equal to a possession with 30 seconds. With 30 minutes left you can alter your strategy for the rest of the game according to the score, but on the last possession the game is done.

Let's say we're down by a point with a minute left and our opponent has the ball and the arrow. In this case, we're not even going to try to force a tie up because that would give them the ball right back. So we have to alter our defense based on the arrow. Whereas if we did a jump ball then we would play our normal aggressive defense and go after the ball.

Conversely, if we have the lead and the ball and the arrow then we don't need to worry so much about retaining possession. If a player gets into trouble he can just hold the ball and let the other team tie him up or foul him, without worrying about committing a turnover.

I also disagree that a jump ball rewards the taller player. Winning the jump is a combination of factors - height, vertical jumping ability, timing, and luck. A good percentage of the time I see both players miss the ball on the way up, then swat it on the way down, which means the shorter player could have won it with better timing. Yes, the taller/more athletic player does have an advantage, but that's kind of how basketball works.

A couple of points here to address:

If the team that controlled the ball before the tie-up gets it back, they have the ball less the seconds that have ticked off the shot clock. Getting to the tie-up point often takes a few seconds, so it's still better than not doing so. Plus, after the tie-up, the offensive team has to reset knowing that the defense just stopped whatever plan they had before. Certainly, it's better to just get the ball back, but forcing the tie-up and giving it back can be beneficial, especially at the end of the shot clock.

I believe that in the NBA, the jump ball occurs near where the tie-up happens, and in that case, many players are bunched tightly around the jumpers. Just because your guy 'wins' the tip doesn't mean that your team is going to corral the ball that has been inexactly forced in a particular direction.

How do the hockey or lacrosse fans around here feel? One of the Duke Lacrosse team's greatest weapons is our elite faceoff specialist, Brendan Fowler, who has been excellent at his role. Despite only playing about a minute of total game time, he affects the game in a profound way. I bet for the opponent, it can feel highly unfair. In hockey, they have faceoffs all the time, but I don't know the sport well enough to know how often games are won by an elite faceoff player or unit.

BigWayne
02-17-2014, 02:34 PM
If you followed the NBA method, Baylor would only win every tie ball that Griner is a part of. The teams don't get to choose their jumpers - instead it's the people who had joint possession that jump. That doesn't change your fundamental point, which is that the taller player involved in the tie-up likely wins the tip.

The original rule as practiced, that the two players involved jump, is very fair. Yes, the taller player is likely to win. However, smaller players are more likely to be involved in a tie up as they more often occur on ground balls. Rewarding a taller player that successfully ties up a ground ball is exactly the behavior I want to see. If they start to make basketball rules to make it "fairer" for short people or track and field rules "fairer" for slow runners, I will stop watching.

vick
02-17-2014, 02:38 PM
The original rule as practiced, that the two players involved jump, is very fair. Yes, the taller player is likely to win. However, smaller players are more likely to be involved in a tie up as they more often occur on ground balls. Rewarding a taller player that successfully ties up a ground ball is exactly the behavior I want to see. If they start to make basketball rules to make it "fairer" for short people or track and field rules "fairer" for slow runners, I will stop watching.

It's not like it's impossible for shorter players to win the jump anyway:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlRxBXjB7LI

Edouble
02-17-2014, 02:45 PM
The original rule as practiced, that the two players involved jump, is very fair. Yes, the taller player is likely to win. However, smaller players are more likely to be involved in a tie up as they more often occur on ground balls. Rewarding a taller player that successfully ties up a ground ball is exactly the behavior I want to see. If they start to make basketball rules to make it "fairer" for short people or track and field rules "fairer" for slow runners, I will stop watching.

When it is a short player versus tall player jump, it is oftentimes due to a tall player bringing the ball down to a short player's level and the short player getting his hands on it.

If the tall player is then able to corral the jump ball for his team, this rewards poor fundamentals to a degree. As a tall player, you should keep the ball up, say, after an offensive rebound.

Black Mambo
02-17-2014, 02:56 PM
The original rule as practiced, that the two players involved jump, is very fair. Yes, the taller player is likely to win. However, smaller players are more likely to be involved in a tie up as they more often occur on ground balls. Rewarding a taller player that successfully ties up a ground ball is exactly the behavior I want to see. If they start to make basketball rules to make it "fairer" for short people or track and field rules "fairer" for slow runners, I will stop watching.

No. Rewarding a defensive player that successfully ties up any kind of ball is exactly the behavior I want to see. Why should the offense be rewarded with a second opportunity when their initial opportunity proved futile? Nowhere else in the game does the defense make a successful stand against the offense and then have to do it again immediately just because.*

Forget the possession arrow. Forget the jumpball. Reward the defensive effort...always.

* Note that I consider a blocked shot that goes out of bounds, or where the offense retains possession, a not-yet-completed defensive stand. Maybe somebody could make the argument that a tie-up in which the possession arrow favors the offense is also a not-yet-completed defensive stand, but that argument would be circular IMHO.

luvdahops
02-17-2014, 03:18 PM
It's not like it's impossible for shorter players to win the jump anyway:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlRxBXjB7LI

As a Bulls season ticket holder, I witnessed Nate Robinson win at least 3-4 jump balls against taller players last year. Jimmy Butler has also shown a knack for "stealing" taps. All things considered, I prefer the jump ball to the alternating possession.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-17-2014, 03:34 PM
College basketball had the jump ball instead of the possession arrow for many years. It was a far more interesting way to deal with held balls than the possession arrow..... made the flow of the game more vital and less scripted or orchestrated.

brevity
02-17-2014, 03:42 PM
College basketball had the jump ball instead of the possession arrow for many years. It was a far more interesting way to deal with held balls than the possession arrow..... made the flow of the game more vital and less scripted or orchestrated.

I don't know the history that prompted the change, but might there have been a problem in which referees would use the jump ball as a crutch so they wouldn't have to properly determine possession? Because I could see that happening, particularly back when their decision relied on live evaluation rather than video replay.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-17-2014, 03:49 PM
I don't know the history that prompted the change, but might there have been a problem in which referees would use the jump ball as a crutch so they wouldn't have to properly determine possession? Because I could see that happening, particularly back when their decision relied on live evaluation rather than video replay.
I don't remember any such argument being made at the time. I attended many games during that era and don't remember such an issue. Some seemed to think the jump ball didn't reward the defensive player in the held ball situation. The alternating possession was supposed to address that concern.

Turk
02-17-2014, 04:09 PM
Interesting thread. Wiki says alternate possession in college started in 1981. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_ball

My recollection is they changed the rule because it was too random, and coaches HATE HATE HATE random. Here's what I remember (comments in parens).

1. The two guys who got tied up would be random, because there's no telling where a loose ball will bounce, or who might deflect it somewhere. You could have "fair" matchups of big vs. big or little vs. little, or "unfair" big vs. little. (So what? Breaks of the game.)
2. The toss by the ref would be VERY random - throwing it too high is just as bad as throwing it too low, never mind throwing it (however slightly) toward one jumper or the other. (I think this was the main reason - refs looking bad and possibly deciding games by chance tosses).
3. The 8 players not jumping can line up randomly around the tipoff circle. There was a lot of jousting as two teammates would try to get next to each other on one side of the circle so their teammate has a good place to tip it, so refs often had to sort that out before they could even toss the jump ball. (Slows the game down.)
4. The circle used for the jump ball is random - closest to wherever the ball got tied up, but one of three different spots on the floor. (half court, or at either free throw line). This created different situations and threats depending on which end of the court the jump occurs. (So what?)

Teams with the smaller guy jumping have a few options to counter the other guy's height: stealing the tip (as noted above) by jumping first and tapping before the ball is at its apex (against the rules, randomly enforced); guessing where the other guy will tap, and trying to beat the other team to that spot (sometimes before the jump ball is actually tossed, also against the rules, and also randomly enforced). I am guessing they got rid of the jump ball to save coaches and refs a lot of aggravation for a minor issue. There was a lot of ideas being tested out for the first time in the early 1980s - the first shot clock and three point line, for example.

Main benefit of alternate possession is that it's simple and no one should have to think to get it right. Held balls happen infrequently and should even out in the long run (of course, except the one time every five years when it could decide a game). It also quickly resolves all non-held ball situations, such as double fouls, "crotch shots" where the ball wedges between the rim and the backboard, and any other situation where possession is unclear, keeping the game moving. Going back to the jump ball would be fixing something that isn't broken.

If you wanted to reward the defense, you could change the rule so that the defense gets all held balls. Then you would need to figure out how to handle all those cases where it isn't clear who actually has possession, which is common in many loose ball situations. I wonder if any of the NBA analytics geeks have done anything with jump ball stats. I doubt it happens enough to make it worthwhile.

royalblue
02-17-2014, 04:19 PM
The ACC Tourney had a great finish in 1971 with a jump ball in the last few moments of the game. Kevin Joyce who was about 7 inches shorter than Lee Dedmon won a jump ball and got the ball to Tom Owens so he could lay it in for the win and a Dean Smith loss 52-51.:) This would be a vote for the jump ball. How about a poll on this issue?

OldPhiKap
02-17-2014, 04:30 PM
I think they should just award the ball to the team whose coach has the most wins. It evens out over time.

DBFAN
02-17-2014, 04:42 PM
I saw this article earlier in the day and all I could think was, "so what". I mean seriously a possession arrow that went the wrong way with 16:50 left in the game, that apparently the Maryland Coaches didn't even know about, had no effect on this game. The idea that Maryland fans and reporters think that they would have gone on. 50-0 run after that is just ludicrous. You have no way of telling what would happen. This is no different than missing an out of bounds call like they had at City Hall, but nobody is writing stories about it. I know what, how about we just start making a collage of videos of Parker getting hammered going to the rim, and not getting called, and how often the Maryland offense would sit in the lane for 10 sec without the ball. I know it so better to take the high road on this stuff but I am amazed at the lack of responsibility these teams and fans have when it comes to losing. And tired of the excrement that is considered journalism by ESPN and other sports outlets.

But a little part of me loves the fact that Maryland is going out whining and shouting conspiracy theories as they leave. It's very fitting for that fan base. You know I noticed it during the game, and if I received a paycheck from Maryland I sure as heck would have seen it and alerted them.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-17-2014, 04:46 PM
I think they should just award the ball to the team whose coach has the most wins. It evens out over time.
I like how you think.:cool:

Henderson
02-17-2014, 05:14 PM
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but for decades there was a jump ball after every basket. http://www.sportsknowhow.com/basketball/history/basketball-history-2.shtml That rule was discarded (in the 1930s?) in favor of alternate possession because of how badly it slowed the game down. It's been a while, but my recollection is that such was the thinking in going to alternating possessions in CBB in the early 1980s.

throatybeard
02-17-2014, 06:54 PM
Because then what else would Dick Vitale have to talk about?

Derek Jeter, A-Rod, Paris Hilton, Duke and Carolina in games Duke and Carolina aren't playing in, his alopecia, his missing second organically grown eye. It's a not-very-rich tapestry.

wsb3
02-17-2014, 08:07 PM
The ACC Tourney had a great finish in 1971 with a jump ball in the last few moments of the game. Kevin Joyce who was about 7 inches shorter than Lee Dedmon won a jump ball and got the ball to Tom Owens so he could lay it in for the win and a Dean Smith loss 52-51.:) This would be a vote for the jump ball. How about a poll on this issue?

That is the jump ball that stands out in my memory of the ACC.

UrinalCake
02-17-2014, 10:09 PM
What if we just changed the rule so that when a tie-up occurs, each team gets to choose which player does the jump? That would eliminate the whole "Tyler Thornton forced a tie-up with Yao Ming and is being penalized" argument. Under the current scenario, the team with the arrow gets to choose which player gets to inbounds the ball, so I don't see why this would be any different.

Either that or we could just award possession to whichever team yells "first" first.

gep
02-17-2014, 10:19 PM
What if we just changed the rule so that when a tie-up occurs, each team gets to choose which player does the jump? That would eliminate the whole "Tyler Thornton forced a tie-up with Yao Ming and is being penalized" argument. Under the current scenario, the team with the arrow gets to choose which player gets to inbounds the ball, so I don't see why this would be any different. ...

Best idea yet (to me, at least :cool:) They do that at the beginning of the game, beginning of overtime. Why not on a held ball? Only that it has to be one of the 5 players on the court at the time of the held ball...

uh_no
02-17-2014, 10:46 PM
Best idea yet (to me, at least :cool:) They do that at the beginning of the game, beginning of overtime. Why not on a held ball? Only that it has to be one of the 5 players on the court at the time of the held ball...

because teams with unnaturally tall guys need ANOTHER way to be dominant over everyone else?

what if UNC not only had hansbrough not getting called for travelling for four years, but also winning EVERY JUMP BALL?

BigWayne
02-18-2014, 02:05 AM
No. Rewarding a defensive player that successfully ties up any kind of ball is exactly the behavior I want to see. Why should the offense be rewarded with a second opportunity when their initial opportunity proved futile? Nowhere else in the game does the defense make a successful stand against the offense and then have to do it again immediately just because.*

Forget the possession arrow. Forget the jumpball. Reward the defensive effort...always.

* Note that I consider a blocked shot that goes out of bounds, or where the offense retains possession, a not-yet-completed defensive stand. Maybe somebody could make the argument that a tie-up in which the possession arrow favors the offense is also a not-yet-completed defensive stand, but that argument would be circular IMHO.

Determining who the offense/defense is in many jump ball situations would be virtually impossible and/or lead to things working out exactly oppositely of what you are desiring to happen.

BD80
02-18-2014, 06:53 AM
Jump balls are pretty difficult for a ref to toss. It has to be directly upwards, to either side or front or back would give a big advantage to one player. The ball must be tossed higher than either player can reach by jumping, and cannot be tapped until after it has reached its highest point. Further, the ref has to stay out of the way of the jump, so it is not like a volleyball set where you handle the ball directly above your head/eyes.

It would be a fairly easy skill to practice and master though. Stand under one basket facing the other so that your head is under the rim and toss he ball up so that it rises 2 or 3 feet above the rim and lands where it started.

OldPhiKap
02-18-2014, 07:25 AM
The last thing we need is another way to slow down a game. When Duke is scheduled behind certain teams on TV, you know you're gonna miss the beginning of the game already.

ChillinDuke
02-18-2014, 08:27 AM
I don't like the alternate possession either.

However, I also think the jump ball is stupid.

In my view, if the offense gets tied up, the defense should get the ball. Every time. Loose balls, trapped balls, held balls, stuffed balls. They all mean that the offense, in one way or another, failed to control and handle the ball on their possession to the point where the defense was able to regain 50/50 possession.

That's an offensive fail. Deserving of a turnover, IMO. No jump balls, no retention with the arrow, no second chances. The offense failed at offensive fundamental #1: possess the ball.

$0.02

- Chillin (tab: $4.42)

PS - I don't know about all of you, but when Duke gets the ball b/c of the arrow and we were previously on offense, I feel guilty almost.

Scorp4me
02-18-2014, 08:43 AM
I saw this article earlier in the day and all I could think was, "so what". I mean seriously a possession arrow that went the wrong way with 16:50 left in the game, that apparently the Maryland Coaches didn't even know about, had no effect on this game. The idea that Maryland fans and reporters think that they would have gone on. 50-0 run after that is just ludicrous. You have no way of telling what would happen. This is no different than missing an out of bounds call like they had at City Hall, but nobody is writing stories about it. I know what, how about we just start making a collage of videos of Parker getting hammered going to the rim, and not getting called, and how often the Maryland offense would sit in the lane for 10 sec without the ball. I know it so better to take the high road on this stuff but I am amazed at the lack of responsibility these teams and fans have when it comes to losing. And tired of the excrement that is considered journalism by ESPN and other sports outlets.

But a little part of me loves the fact that Maryland is going out whining and shouting conspiracy theories as they leave. It's very fitting for that fan base. You know I noticed it during the game, and if I received a paycheck from Maryland I sure as heck would have seen it and alerted them.

I think DBFAN is the only one focused on the right issue. I mean the story isn't that the jump ball was mistakenly given to the wrong team...it's that Maryland spotted it. I mean think about. There are 351 Division 1 teams. With tournaments and such I can't say how many games are played exactly, but I think it's easily over 5000. Let's say there are 3 jump balls a game. That's over 15,000 jump balls in just one season. You think out of all that there aren't some mistakes made? Yet, it's Maryland that finds it. So what's more surprising, that there is a conspiracy against Maryland (or for Duke)...or that Maryland was able to cry conspiracy against them (or for Duke)? Exactly!

On a related note, I tried to think the other day how I would feel if any other ACC school were to leave. There are some schools that seem alright but obviously haven't been around long enough, like BC or Pitt. There are some that claerly can be an embarrassment to the conference like UNC or FSU, but they bring some positives too and they've been around long enough (like a crazy cousin you make allowances for). And then there are those you may genuinely like, who seem to be in it with you, like State and Wake or even Clemson and Virginia. But I seriously can't find any of that in Maryland. They've been with us a long time, but that's it. No positives, no niceties, no reason to make allowances for them. See ya!

UrinalCake
02-18-2014, 09:14 AM
As a brief aside to discuss the MD game... I think the issue was not that the ref made a bad call. Bad calls happen all the time. The issue was that it was a procedural error. Those are correctable, while errors in judgment are not.

It's similar to a few years ago when the refs were suspended after mistakenly calling a double foul in a game against FSU. The issue wasn't that the refs made a bad call, it was that they failed to follow proper procedure in consulting the video replay to determine what happened. Again, procedural mistakes are correctable and when they occur refs can be punished or admonished. Judgment calls are considered an inherent part of the game and are not up for discussion.

Highlander
02-18-2014, 03:20 PM
No. Rewarding a defensive player that successfully ties up any kind of ball is exactly the behavior I want to see. Why should the offense be rewarded with a second opportunity when their initial opportunity proved futile? Nowhere else in the game does the defense make a successful stand against the offense and then have to do it again immediately just because.*

Forget the possession arrow. Forget the jumpball. Reward the defensive effort...always.

* Note that I consider a blocked shot that goes out of bounds, or where the offense retains possession, a not-yet-completed defensive stand. Maybe somebody could make the argument that a tie-up in which the possession arrow favors the offense is also a not-yet-completed defensive stand, but that argument would be circular IMHO.

IIRC, they experimented with this a few years ago in preseason tournaments and it didn't really work. Reason I didn't like it was because it was difficult to determine who was the offensive player and who was defensive in a loose ball situation. For example, if a center goes up and has his shot blocked and then the defensive guard gains possession, he's now an offensive player, right (because the defensive stand is complete)? If the center then ties him up a half second later before he can even start his dribble, the ball stays on that end of the court because the defender (now the center) forced the tie up. What do you do when it's a loose ball where both teams possess the ball briefly and both players tie it up? Who's defense and who's offense?

I have never had a problem with alternating possession. It's essentially an official version of the playground rule of calling "first."

Black Mambo
02-18-2014, 03:46 PM
IIRC, they experimented with this a few years ago in preseason tournaments and it didn't really work. Reason I didn't like it was because it was difficult to determine who was the offensive player and who was defensive in a loose ball situation. For example, if a center goes up and has his shot blocked and then the defensive guard gains possession, he's now an offensive player, right (because the defensive stand is complete)? If the center then ties him up a half second later before he can even start his dribble, the ball stays on that end of the court because the defender (now the center) forced the tie up. What do you do when it's a loose ball where both teams possess the ball briefly and both players tie it up? Who's defense and who's offense?

I have never had a problem with alternating possession. It's essentially an official version of the playground rule of calling "first."

Good points. My initial thought is that the possession changes when there is a new shot clock, but your specific scenario would present a challenge. Tie ups on rebounds would also be difficult. I admit it's not as clear cut as I was initially hoping.

GGLC
02-18-2014, 03:52 PM
I like the alternating possession rule as it is.

-jk
02-18-2014, 04:25 PM
"Team Control" tells us who is on offense and who is defending (the rule is quoted below).

You could make a clear and reasonable rule rewarding the defense with a turnover on a defensive tie-up using Team Control. I suspect many coaches would agree - good defense should be rewarded. There's a precedent: in the early 80's, the 5 second closely-guarded rule changed from a jump ball to a turnover to reward good defense the same way.

By definition, though, no one has possession after an attempted shot until it's rebounded or out of bounds, etc. Trying to make a tie up there a turnover wouldn't make much sense in light of Team Control, and will probably remain an alternating possession.



Rule 4, Section 9. Control—Player, Team

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates;
c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in; or
d. During an interrupted dribble.

Art. 3. Team control shall continue until the ball is in flight during a try for goal, an opponent secures control or the ball becomes dead.

Art. 4. There shall be no team control during:
a. A jump ball;
b. The tapping of a rebound (unless it is a try for goal);
c. A try for goal after the ball is in flight;
d. The period that follows any of these acts (a-c) while the ball is being batted (from the vicinity of other players) in an attempt to secure control; or
e. A dead ball.

Art. 5. Team control is re-established in Article 4 of this rule when a player secures control.

Art. 6. “Control” for purposes of establishing the alternating-possession procedure occurs when:
a. A player is in control; or
b. The ball is handed/bounced to or placed at the disposal of the free-thrower after a common foul or placed at the disposal of a thrower-in.

-jk

calltheobvious
02-18-2014, 08:01 PM
Jump balls are pretty difficult for a ref to toss. It has to be directly upwards, to either side or front or back would give a big advantage to one player. The ball must be tossed higher than either player can reach by jumping, and cannot be tapped until after it has reached its highest point. Further, the ref has to stay out of the way of the jump, so it is not like a volleyball set where you handle the ball directly above your head/eyes.

It would be a fairly easy skill to practice and master though. Stand under one basket facing the other so that your head is under the rim and toss he ball up so that it rises 2 or 3 feet above the rim and lands where it started.

As an official, I wouldn't call jump balls "difficult" to execute, but I'll say that with practice they become very easy. And I very much like the drill you came up with.