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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 69, Maryland 67 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-15-2014, 08:26 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

ice-9
02-15-2014, 08:26 PM
So this is what happens when we have a bad shooting night! We can't let that affect the rest of our game. Jefferson and Jabari were BIG for us.

jimrowe0
02-15-2014, 08:27 PM
Lucky. Poor shooting and bad defense

Dukeblue91
02-15-2014, 08:28 PM
Wow that was bad but I take it.
Next play err game :p

gotoguy
02-15-2014, 08:28 PM
Heads up play there at the end by Thornton to bat the ball to Amile

Les Grossman
02-15-2014, 08:29 PM
I hate it when the game is close enough that the blockheads in striped shirts are tempted to have a role in the outcome.

TampaDuke
02-15-2014, 08:29 PM
Guess refs can't do math. Although it was a shot clock violation, Terps got an extra second on that last possession. Coulda cost the game if not for Amile's rebound.

miramar
02-15-2014, 08:30 PM
Mitchell had two really obvious walks in the paint at the ten second and eight second mark before the ball was knocked out with 6.4. Plus he was in the paint from the 12 second mark to seven seconds.

These guys need to pay attention.

Chicken Little
02-15-2014, 08:31 PM
Whew. Good Riddance.

luburch
02-15-2014, 08:31 PM
Good teams figure out how to win games when they play bad, and that's what Duke just did.

Billy Dat
02-15-2014, 08:31 PM
I give huge props to Tyler who I thought led us the whole game and actually punched away the Mitchell miss as Dez Wells was ready to lay it in. We were taking control when he picked up his 4th. I also credit Rodney who despite having a horrible first 35 minutes made plays in the final 5, along with Amile. Jabari's dunk was huge, Rasheed was a solid presence. Dez Wells tried to kill us again but he just came up a little short. We won ugly. Mitchell's miss was unlucky for them, but you need luck once in a while. We showed toughness and gutted it out.

Faison1
02-15-2014, 08:32 PM
Real mixed emotions right now. It's a real shame that's the last time we'll see Maryland in CIS. And I'm not being sarcastic.

Many great games against those guys. Never liked them, but always looked forward to the games.

Bay Area Duke Fan
02-15-2014, 08:34 PM
Where was Josh?

ElSid
02-15-2014, 08:35 PM
Poor shooting.
We played well in a lot of other capacities.
Rodney Hood forced it all game.
Thornton maybe player of the game if he hits even one or two three pointers. Great d most of the night.
Jabari Dunk maybe the best Duke play I've seen in a decade.

Faison1
02-15-2014, 08:36 PM
How about Quinn? Totally absent the last quarter of the game. Was that covered in the In-Game Thread?

dukelifer
02-15-2014, 08:36 PM
You are going to have one of these bad shooting games every year. Duke was very lucky not to lose tonight. But I do not expect Duke to shoot this badly again. I blame it on the snow and loss of rhythm. Still - a loss tonight would have really hurt this teams chances for a good seed. Happy that Duke survived and hope they will put this away and get ready for Tech. Really, really tough week ahead!

Highlander
02-15-2014, 08:37 PM
Too close for comfort.

I wondered about the shot clock violation. Went back and looked at the replay. With 21.2 seconds on the clock, the shot clock had 2 seconds on it. I can live with calling Duke for a shot clock violation, but MD should have received the ball with around 19.2 seconds, not 20.8. They basically gave MD the ball when the shot clock went off, but it went off b/c the timer thought it hit the rim, not because it hit zero.

Luckily we held on defense so it didn't matter. And Jefferson was still able to make the key rebound to seal the win.

Did anyone notice that Coach K used the Zoubek/Butler game missed FT at the end to seal it? Works a lot better with less than 2 seconds left.

CDu
02-15-2014, 08:38 PM
How about Quinn? Totally absent the last quarter of the game. Was that covered in the In-Game Thread?

Cook had a rough night. So Coach K went with Thornton down the stretch .

dukelifer
02-15-2014, 08:38 PM
Real mixed emotions right now. It's a real shame that's the last time we'll see Maryland in CIS. And I'm not being sarcastic.

Many great games against those guys. Never liked them, but always looked forward to the games.

Not a good game - but a memorable one to end the run. Duke- MD games have been very good for a very long time and I too will miss them in the league- mainly because the games were intense and Duke usually won.

jv001
02-15-2014, 08:39 PM
Where was Josh?

As bad as I've disliked Maryland over the years, tonight I have to give them credit for a great effort. They just wouldn't go away. Tyler and Amile don't get the headlines but they have the heart to do what is necessary to win games. Tyler calmed us down and had the best game at point since he's been at Duke. He came through in the first half against their 1-3-1 zone. Amile once again did a great job on the boards and showed he can take the ball to the hoop. He's a player.Ok, let's get Tech. GoDuke!
Oh, Josh didn't play did he?

jipops
02-15-2014, 08:40 PM
Where was Josh?

I think the more relevant question is, where has Cook gone? I thought pg play was a big issue today and probably had a lot to do with the poor fg%. We're a fairly ordinary offense with Quinn not on his game.

Defense ended up winning this one.

Chicken Little
02-15-2014, 08:41 PM
Cook had a rough night. So Coach K went with Thornton down the stretch .

Yup. Probably tough for him because he knows all the Maryland/DC-area guys. Looking forward to him having a huge game against UNC to make up for it ;)

This game was just that game where the shots/layups just don't go down and the other guy is hitting some that don't belong. I will say though that I've liked how the offense runs with the ball in Rasheed's hands. I think he and Quinn can be used to run this offense, and it's a nice luxury to have in case someone is having an off night.

duke09hms
02-15-2014, 08:41 PM
Lucky. Poor shooting and bad defense

Actually the Duke defense was much better than our season average.

CDu
02-15-2014, 08:42 PM
Too close for comfort.

I wondered about the shot clock violation. Went back and looked at the replay. With 21.2 seconds on the clock, the shot clock had 2 seconds on it. I can live with calling Duke for a shot clock violation, but MD should have received the ball with around 19.2 seconds, not 20.8. They basically gave MD the ball when the shot clock went off, but it went off b/c the timer thought it hit the rim, not because it hit zero.

Luckily we held on defense so it didn't matter. And Jefferson was still able to make the key rebound to seal the win.

Did anyone notice that Coach K used the Zoubek/Butler game missed FT at the end to seal it? Works a lot better with less than 2 seconds left.

I am not sure that those 1.5-2 seconds matter. If Maryland starts with 19.2, they just run their play a second sooner. I only really quibble with shot clock error when it actually affects the likelihood of getting a good shot off. In this case, the clock was wrong, but it made little practical difference.

LBF
02-15-2014, 08:42 PM
Big defensive lapses, bad shooting, out rebounded, but we win. I take that as very good news and reflective of the progress we are making. When you can win on a very bad night against a motivated and talented team that's a very good sign that we may go deep in the tourney

CDu
02-15-2014, 08:45 PM
Big defensive lapses, bad shooting, out rebounded, but we win. I take that as very good news and reflective of the progress we are making. When you can win on a very bad night against a motivated and talented team that's a very good sign that we may go deep in the tourney

Our defense was solid, actually. Maryland shot just 42% and had 14 turnovers. It was our offense that kept Maryland alive.

Billy Dat
02-15-2014, 08:46 PM
I think the more relevant question is, where has Cook gone? I thought pg play was a big issue today and probably had a lot to do with the poor fg%. We're a fairly ordinary offense with Quinn not on his game.

Defense ended up winning this one.

Quinn is definitely in a downward spiral initiated by his injuries. How hurt he is we can't know, but he is a different player. At one point, Nate was giving him a pep talk on the bench, and he didn't start the second half. The thing is, Rasheed's explosion back onto the scene kind of mitigates Quinn. He's a better defender, his playmaking has come a really long way (he's very effective at the drive and kick), and his slashing is heading to a new level making him a very very tough guard. Thornton played great tonight, despite the foul trouble. Before Rasheed's recovery this season, I had Quinn pegged as our second most important player after Jabari. Now, I am not as worried about his poor play, but would still like to see him get back to where he was.

duke09hms
02-15-2014, 08:46 PM
Our defense was solid, actually. Maryland shot just 42% and had 14 turnovers. It was our offense that kept Maryland alive.

Yeah our defense actually won us the game. If we had played our typical D with today's O, we likely would have lost by 10+ points. Defense helped us eke out a win.

And to me, that is the most encouraging thing about tonight. We are not championship contenders with such a poor D. Hopefully tonight represents baby steps in the right direction.

Faison1
02-15-2014, 08:48 PM
I bet Juan Dixon is really bummed about their move.

I mean, there's nothing there for them in the Big 10. Who is their rival going to be? Penn St.?

Troublemaker
02-15-2014, 08:49 PM
This game was more about Maryland playing well + a horrible shooting night from Duke (which hopefully will be end up being our worst shooting game of the season) than Duke playing all that poorly, imo. Certainly Duke's effort was outstanding. We played so hard.

In any case, Duke needed the experience of winning a close game. Our winning streak has included a lot of blowouts. The close game against Syracuse, we lost. And UVA only got close because we didn't play well down the stretch. So it's great for our team to add this experience to our memory bank. Going down 3 when Wells hit that three-pointer, and then executing well on both ends to get the lead and survive for the win.

Now let's get back to blowing teams out.

jv001
02-15-2014, 08:49 PM
If Tyler could stay out of foul trouble, he would be even more valuable to this team. I can't say enough about his toughness. He has no fear. I said in the in game thread, Quinn looks like he's lost his quickness. I have to believe he's hurt. GoDuke!

LBF
02-15-2014, 08:49 PM
Yeah our defense actually won us the game. If we had played our typical D with today's O, we likely would have lost by 10+ points. Defense helped us eke out a win.

And to me, that is the most encouraging thing about tonight. We are not championship contenders with such a poor D. Hopefully tonight represents baby steps in the right direction.

I'm surprised you guys think our defense was good. It seemed to me that we were getting beat off the dribble and Maryland had many uncontested shots in the paint as a result

KandG
02-15-2014, 08:52 PM
Much too exciting for any rational Duke fan's blood pressure. Pretty rough display of composure for most of the 2nd half when the shots wouldn't fall (seemed like there was a big regression toward one-on-one play when the lead started to shrink), but games like this happen in the ACC. I don't think it's the worst thing for the team to have a learning experience like this for situations down the road when players like Rodney are in foul trouble early or shots aren't falling, and the team needs to learn how to manage their play (and emotions) better in tight games.

The defense was generally a plus tonight relative to games of this type earlier this season when it seemed Duke couldn't stop the Vermonts of the world running simple pick and rolls in the closing minutes.

That doghouse Quinn is in continues to grow to the point that it's becoming quite the mansion. I have issues with Tyler's play from time to time, but he attacked Maryland's 1-3-1 so much better and was so much more savvy throughout the game that I don't blame K one bit for giving up on Quinn after one or two mistakes and rolling with Tyler and Sheed (even though Sheed himself had many, many shaky moments, albeit ones arising out of aggression).

Would have been nice to have Quinn's shooting given Tyler and Sheed threw up their share of bricks, but dribbling into the teeth of a zone and throwing lazy passes, not to mention not stopping the ball in transition and giving up an and-1 to Wells, just doesn't cut it for Quinn. He has to step it up, period.

I have no idea what's going to happen next Thursday in Chapel Hill at this point, but I'd like to see the team apply the lessons from this nail-biter and make Tuesday's game a little less stressful.

GTHC
02-15-2014, 08:52 PM
I am not sure that those 1.5-2 seconds matter. If Maryland starts with 19.2, they just run their play a second sooner. I only really quibble with shot clock error when it actually affects the likelihood of getting a good shot off. In this case, the clock was wrong, but it made little practical difference.

I have a big problem with that shot clock violation. Yes, the ball didn't hit the rim and so it should have been a violation. But I don't think the refs should be able to go back and change the call. The refs only reviewed the play then because we called a timeout immediately. First of all, you shouldn't penalize Duke for calling a timeout by changing the call. Second, what if Amile kicked it out and Duke burned 10 more seconds off the clock? Do you go back and give the ball to Maryland? What if Duke hit a three before the next dead ball? Does that come off too?

It's one thing to review which team hit the ball out of bounds or whether a shooter had a foot on the three point line because more time has not come off the clock before the review. But to go "back in time" and change a crucial call after play continued does not seem fair to me. Sure, here it was only 2 seconds and doesn't seem like a big deal. But other times there will be more unfair consequences.

hudlow
02-15-2014, 08:53 PM
Burn something.

Buh Bye.....

duke09hms
02-15-2014, 08:54 PM
I'm surprised you guys think our defense was good. It seemed to me that we were getting beat off the dribble and Maryland had many uncontested shots in the paint as a result

We held MD to 41% FG and forced 14 TOs, a relatively stellar performance by our defense. If we had even an average night on offense, it would have been a blowout.

wsb3
02-15-2014, 08:54 PM
This game was more about Maryland playing well + a horrible shooting night from Duke (which hopefully will be end up being our worst shooting game of the season) than Duke playing all that poorly, imo. ....Now let's get back to blowing teams out.

I will beg to differ. I thought we were horrible & not just the shooting. How many times did we just carelessly hand the ball to Maryland?

I certainly will agree with your last sentence. Very lucky to win this game.

& why Maryland could not elevate their level of play against UNC...like they do against us.

PS My new wife got a real taste of my frustration tonight. I believe my cuss word quota is used up till Spring..:)

BlueDevilBrowns
02-15-2014, 08:55 PM
I think the more relevant question is, where has Cook gone? I thought pg play was a big issue today and probably had a lot to do with the poor fg%. We're a fairly ordinary offense with Quinn not on his game.

Defense ended up winning this one.

In fairness to our offense, we missed several wide open looks from 3, especially a few from Dawkins that are usually automatic. If we make 3 or 4 more 3's, we win somewhat comfortably, as there would have been much less game pressure on us.

Having said that, Cook was "off" tonight, and we're ARE going to need him on his game to defeat our more elite opponents.

But my guess is the issue with Quinn is confidence more than anything. He's going east to west almost exclusively instead of attacking the basket. And he's not looking to push the ball like Sulaimon is. Cook just seems to be trying to be too careful with the ball, whether that's because of not trusting his injured ankle yet or not, I don't know.

I think Cook's at his best when he's playing instinctively with aggression. Let's hope he get's back to that soon.

rocketeli
02-15-2014, 08:56 PM
I'm surprised you guys think our defense was good. It seemed to me that we were getting beat off the dribble and Maryland had many uncontested shots in the paint as a result

If by "we" you mean Quinn Cook, I'll agree with you. I also agree with other posters that he must still be injured a bit, as he seems slowed down. Overall our defense was pretty good, but oddly enough, since the game was at home, we couldn't buy a basket.

Saratoga2
02-15-2014, 08:58 PM
This was certainly not the best Duke offensive effort, perhaps due to the aggressive and quick Maryland defense but also due to sloppy Duke playand perhaps confusion over playing against the 1-3-1 defense

I thought Quinn wasn't focused. He telegraphed passes which got picked off and did too much slow dribbling around the perimeter. Coach K finally gave him some time to sit and think. I think Rodney was also telegraphing passes by winding up and was unable to drive in and finish and didn't shoot well from 3. He also wound up in foul trouble through bad choices on offense and defense. Personally, I think his play has slumped after and excellent start. Toward the end of the game he did seem to recover and helped us out but the bulk of the game he just didn't seem to be playing his A game. Add to that Rasheed having difficulty finishing, but he at least put pressure on the defense and is into dishing when heavily guarded. Tyler had a good defensive game and didn't turn the ball over but he just was way off on his 3 point shots. Jabari had the majority of his field goals early and had to go to the foul line to get points. He seemed to be out of control a lot, but he was able to draw fouls. Like to see him kick it out when he is triple teamed. I think Jabari played the entire game and looked fatigued at the end.

Amile played extremely well. He is such a smart player. Twelve rebounds, excellent defensive play near the end may have been the game saver. He also has a way of scoring if they give him a slot. Great overall game for him. Both Andre and Matt played okay but were in for only brief periods. No one shot the three well tonight.

This game exposed the weakness of being small inside as for a while we couldn't stop Maryland inside. It probably will be disputed, but I thought our best result came with Marshall in the game. We were up by 9 when he left, having built it up after losing much of the lead. I think Andre, Rasheed, Amile and Jabari were in with him at that time, but I may not remember that quite right.

I really dislike our playing two small guards together, especially when one seems out of focus. We have Andre, Matt and Rasheed available. Why not use them?

Chicken Little
02-15-2014, 09:01 PM
Burn something.

Buh Bye.....

Agreed. Almost posted that I wouldn't want to be a dumpster in Maryland tonight, then I realized I wouldn't want to be anything in Maryland, any night.

Utley
02-15-2014, 09:02 PM
Loving me some Amile - I'd like to see him be even more offensive minded. He can score well down low and it would open up the outside.

I still think this team is at its best when it plays deep and fear that we will keep creeping in the rotation as the season goes on.

Channing
02-15-2014, 09:03 PM
Aside from the win not much to love about this one. Loved Jabari dominating down low. Loved Amiles toughness all game. But, most of all, I loved TT's presence of mind on the last play to go up and swat the ball to Amile. After Mitchell missed there were two umd players with a chance to tip it in. Made spite being outsized tt went up and swatted the rebound out to Amile. Kept umd from getting a put back opportunity. A real cerebral play.

kAzE
02-15-2014, 09:04 PM
I'm gonna need some kind of heart medication after today . . . that USA-Russia hockey thriller plus that last shot from Charles Mitchell that hung on the rim for about 20 minutes . . . good lord. We played very poorly in comparison to our recent stretch, but I'm just glad we got the win.

Positives:

- Jefferson is back to being himself after a 2 game hiatus. This is who he's been. He just shows up in big games, in big moments, and the ball just finds it way into his hands when it really matters. He's a clutch rebounder, shoots a high percentage from the field, and he's been a surprisingly good free throw shooter for some time now. I actually think he missed that last free throw on purpose, Zoubek style. Can't praise him enough. He almost single handedly won us that crucial home game against Virginia down the stretch, which could have crushed our season. There's no question in my mind he's been the catalyst and arguably the MVP of this 9 game stretch since the Clemson loss.

Negatives:

- There was only one positive.

- Cook has really regressed. He seems to have lost all confidence. He was letting guys blow by him every time on defense (no surprise there), but on offense, he's just become a one-dimensional player who takes bad shots early in possessions, and he's also begun to make a habit of throwing extremely lazy passes. By my count, he had 4 passes which were tipped by the opposing defense in this game, three of which resulted in live ball turnovers, and transition opportunities for Maryland. That's unacceptable for the starting point guard, and it wasn't a surprise at all to see him sitting on the bench during crunch time. It's incredibly frustrating to see this type of regression from a veteran player, especially a guy who is such an emotional person. I just hope he doesn't take this benching too hard, and just works on getting his mojo back. Aside from a nice shooting game against BC he has been just plain bad lately. We need 2012 Bahamas Quinn Cook back.

- Atrocious shooting. Oy . . . what happened? I don't think we've had a game like this where not a single guy had it going from deep. Thornton had 3 or 4 wide open gimmes that he just couldn't knock down in this one. He played extremely well otherwise, but he's GOT to hit a couple of those. Thank goodness we made just enough threes to win this one. That Sulaimon three off the Layman turnover was the biggest shot of the night. I like that he's starting to make a habit of hitting big shots. We don't have Tyler Ennis, but between Amile's scrappiness and Sulaimon's willingness to take and make the big shot (we needed both plus some luck from the basketball gods all in the same play to beat UVA), we might just have enough clutch-osity to pull out some close ones.

- Atrocious defense for much of the game, especially the first 17 minutes in the 2nd half. They had 14 turnovers, but that number is misleading, because several of those were unforced turnovers. I was feeling some serious deja vu from the Clemson game when Dez Wells went off and brought them all the way back and took the lead. He was doing whatever he wanted, and they were scoring at will on fast break after fast break. I don't know if it was fatigue or what, but if we're already getting tired now, I don't even want to know what we look like on D by the 4th game of this ridiculous stretch. I really hope we can afford to go deep into the bench at GT, we need to save our legs for the brutal stretch @UNC/Syracuse in 3 days.

I'm chalking up this one as a little bit of a fluke. This was probably the worst we've been offensively for a while, and Cook can't possibly be this bad for the rest of the year. I expect us to head into the Syracuse game without an additional loss, and that game should be another toss up. I really hope we show some improvement next game though. Go Duke!

KandG
02-15-2014, 09:07 PM
But my guess is the issue with Quinn is confidence more than anything. He's going east to west almost exclusively instead of attacking the basket. And he's not looking to push the ball like Sulaimon is. Cook just seems to be trying to be too careful with the ball, whether that's because of not trusting his injured ankle yet or not, I don't know.

I think Cook's at his best when he's playing instinctively with aggression. Let's hope he get's back to that soon.


I'm been especially tough on Quinn, perhaps unfairly lately given his injuries. But the "east to west" meandering around isn't a recent development, it's been an issue that's popped up in games throughout his Duke career. Sometimes good opposing defenses will do that to even the best point guards, but Quinn has a tendency to lose concentration and dribble too much, at worst no longer looking for teammates late in the shot clock and throwing up inefficient contested jumpers.

I agree he needs to get back to playing more instinctively. But being more instinctive and aggressive has to be balanced with running a good offense that moves the ball and creates superior opportunities for teammates. He's very lost in that regard right now.

DrChainsaw
02-15-2014, 09:10 PM
I'm surprised you guys think our defense was good. It seemed to me that we were getting beat off the dribble and Maryland had many uncontested shots in the paint as a result
I think our defense came through when it counted, especially on the last Maryland possession. That was a situation when we could have easily put them on the line to seal the game. Instead, we played straight up and sealed the game.

Good riddance to the bastards. Despite the few Maryland players I've respected in the past, they were an annoyance, not a rival.

GGLC
02-15-2014, 09:12 PM
We got really lucky, and our defense the second half was not good. (Maryland's low field goal percentage is deceiving, because many of those misses were not the result of our defense)

Definitely want to see Amile get more involved in the offense; he's a sneakily good driver and I love his post moves.

Troublemaker
02-15-2014, 09:13 PM
I will beg to differ. I thought we were horrible & not just the shooting. How many times did we just carelessly hand the ball to Maryland?


Well, we only had 11 turnovers. It's true I would rather see that number be around 8 or so (in an ideal world, 0 obviously) but I wouldn't say ball-handling was all that terrible.



& why Maryland could not elevate their level of play against UNC...like they do against us.


I think they have some players that give us trouble and have for two seasons now. This isn't hindsight either. My post in the pre-game thread was that I was wary of them.

I would rank the "reasons" for this being only a 2-pt victory as follows:
1. Horrible shooting night from Duke. Hopefully will be the worst of the season.
2. Maryland matching up pretty well against Duke with some players.
3. Maryland playing extremely hard and very well.
4. Duke playing poorly.

ChrisP
02-15-2014, 09:16 PM
6 FG's in the second half? From a team with a TON of offensive weapons? Are you freakin' kidding me??? There was a stretch there late in the game where we couldn't buy one (layups, putbacks, 3's, you name it - we missed it). Ugh.

Obviously, you gotta give MD credit for some of that but...wow, we stunk it up with a bunch of missed, good shots. I can't stand UMD, but have to tip my hat to them tonight on a hard-fought game. Those kids NEVER gave up and came within a couple inches of winning if that last shot had bounced in instead of out.

As others have said, I was disappointed in Quinn's play and Rodney's as well (at least for the first 35 minutes or so). Oh well, next game, I guess.

But...am I the only one who'd like another crack at Maryland in the ACC Tourney? I think that if we'd hit even a tiny bit better from 3, we might have created enough separation for the Terps to wilt like they did when they played at UNC. I kinda want another shot at them.

GGLC
02-15-2014, 09:19 PM
I have a big problem with that shot clock violation. Yes, the ball didn't hit the rim and so it should have been a violation. But I don't think the refs should be able to go back and change the call. The refs only reviewed the play then because we called a timeout immediately. First of all, you shouldn't penalize Duke for calling a timeout by changing the call. Second, what if Amile kicked it out and Duke burned 10 more seconds off the clock? Do you go back and give the ball to Maryland? What if Duke hit a three before the next dead ball? Does that come off too?

It's one thing to review which team hit the ball out of bounds or whether a shooter had a foot on the three point line because more time has not come off the clock before the review. But to go "back in time" and change a crucial call after play continued does not seem fair to me. Sure, here it was only 2 seconds and doesn't seem like a big deal. But other times there will be more unfair consequences.

I agree with this completely. Extremely well-said. If we had lost because of that shot clock violation (especially when Amile was pretty clearly fouled during his shot), I would have been livid.

Would love to know how they would have handled the situation if Amile had kicked it out rather than calling a timeout.

Billy Dat
02-15-2014, 09:19 PM
Positives:

- Jefferson is back to being himself after a 2 game hiatus. This is who he's been. He just shows up in big games, in big moments, and the ball just finds it way into his hands when it really matters. He's a clutch rebounder, shoots a high percentage from the field, and he's been a surprisingly good free throw shooter for some time now. I actually think he missed that last free throw on purpose, Zoubek style. Can't praise him enough. He almost single handedly won us that crucial home game against Virginia down the stretch, which could have crushed our season. There's no question in my mind he's been the catalyst and arguably the MVP of this 9 game stretch since the Clemson loss.

Negatives:

- There was only one positive.


28-34 from the line was a huge positive, as was our composure in the final 5 minutes when the game was in the balance.

jv001
02-15-2014, 09:19 PM
6 FG's in the second half? From a team with a TON of offensive weapons? Are you freakin' kidding me??? There was a stretch there late in the game where we couldn't buy one (layups, putbacks, 3's, you name it - we missed it). Ugh.

Obviously, you gotta give MD credit for some of that but...wow, we stunk it up with a bunch of missed, good shots. I can't stand UMD, but have to tip my hat to them tonight on a hard-fought game. Those kids NEVER gave up and came within a couple inches of winning if that last shot had bounced in instead of out.

As others have said, I was disappointed in Quinn's play and Rodney's as well (at least for the first 35 minutes or so). Oh well, next game, I guess.

But...am I the only one who'd like another crack at Maryland in the ACC Tourney? I think that if we'd hit even a tiny bit better from 3, we might have created enough separation for the Terps to wilt like they did when they played at UNC. I kinda want another shot at them.

Not me. They match up well with us. Wells must love playing us. I hope we don't play them again in my lifetime and I live to be 100 years old. GoDuke!

greybeard
02-15-2014, 09:25 PM
As bad as I've disliked Maryland over the years, tonight I have to give them credit for a great effort. They just wouldn't go away. Tyler and Amile don't get the headlines but they have the heart to do what is necessary to win games. Tyler calmed us down and had the best game at point since he's been at Duke. He came through in the first half against their 1-3-1 zone. Amile once again did a great job on the boards and showed he can take the ball to the hoop. He's a player.Ok, let's get Tech. GoDuke!
Oh, Josh didn't play did he?

impressive. However, you have to give a shout out to Parker, and you MUST mention Amile's moves to the basket from the foul line. Outstanding.

Plumlee I thought played quite well. It must be Plumlee's difficulty on the line because I think he was wide open or had terrific position 3-4 times, and has shown the ability to catch and score the ball inside.

An aside: driving the lane, the best shot, even from dead in front, is off the backboard in most all instances. Much more forgiving than no-backboard shoot, much. Wide range of speed of the shot that will result in a make; also, angles off the board. Nolan Smith dramatically improved his finishes when he began using the backboard. Many people believe that using the backboard when shooting in front of the rim improvident. Not so.

Which brings me to Rasheed, whom I thought very impactful. Played tough and poised in every facet of the game, and I thought his ability to get inside the lane and threaten the basket or kick a major contribution. Off the backboard might have helped.

fogey
02-15-2014, 09:27 PM
Marshall does very good things every time he gets in the game. Even though he is the largest Devil by far, he truly is the only one who focuses on defensive rebounding positioning and actually blocks out, pins his man. (take that back, Tyler does as well). Used to be you'd hold your breath a bit when he was in, but now he is very valuable. Wish he had been put back in late in the game, would have helped to prevent easy finishes by Maryland off of their penetration.

I loved Amile tonite, his progess has been spectacular, and Marshall's improvement really bodes well for the team. Stinky shooting tonight, but this team is fun to watch. Can't wait to see how things go this week!

Luther
02-15-2014, 09:28 PM
Once again Amile is the key to the win. The kids a winner.

Saratoga2
02-15-2014, 09:31 PM
Where was Josh?

I don't know why he didn't get into the game, but in reality he hasn't been impressive in recent games and has lost PT as a result. Marshall offers more size and speed and even Semi seems to be playing more effectively although he also didn't get in tonight. The game was too close to risk a 10 or 11 player off the bench.

kAzE
02-15-2014, 09:31 PM
28-34 from the line was a huge positive, as was our composure in the final 5 minutes when the game was in the balance.

Yes, you're right, what I meant to say was "only 1 positive that I could think of" The outstanding performance from the foul stripe was something that we weren't capable of earlier in the year. It especially hurt us against Kansas, so I'm glad to see that we've shored up that weakness and turned it into a strength.

I also agree that we played very well down the stretch, especially defensively. We didn't commit any silly fouls or give away any bad turnovers, so it's nice to know that our guys won't crap the bed in a tense situation.

jv001
02-15-2014, 09:34 PM
impressive. However, you have to give a shout out to Parker, and you MUST mention Amile's moves to the basket from the foul line. Outstanding.

Plumlee I thought played quite well. It must be Plumlee's difficulty on the line because I think he was wide open or had terrific position 3-4 times, and has shown the ability to catch and score the ball inside.

An aside: driving the lane, the best shot, even from dead in front, is off the backboard in most all instances. Much more forgiving than no-backboard shoot, much. Wide range of speed of the shot that will result in a make; also, angles off the board. Nolan Smith dramatically improved his finishes when he began using the backboard. Many people believe that using the backboard when shooting in front of the rim improvident. Not so.

Which brings me to Rasheed, whom I thought very impactful. Played tough and poised in every facet of the game, and I thought his ability to get inside the lane and threaten the basket or kick a major contribution. Off the backboard might have helped.

Great point about using the backboard. It's a much easier shot from in front to the basket. Allen did that tonight against us. He made a driving shot coming straight to the basket. I don't know why players don't use the backboard more. The bank shot is really an easier shot than the floater. I agree Marshall played a good game and made some key plays that in the end helped win a two point game. GoDuke!

wsb3
02-15-2014, 09:38 PM
Well, we only had 11 turnovers. It's true I would rather see that number be around 8 or so (in an ideal world, 0 obviously) but I wouldn't say ball-handling was all that terrible.



I think they have some players that give us trouble and have for two seasons now. This isn't hindsight either. My post in the pre-game thread was that I was wary of them.

I would rank the "reasons" for this being only a 2-pt victory as follows:
1. Horrible shooting night from Duke. Hopefully will be the worst of the season.
2. Maryland matching up pretty well against Duke with some players.
3. Maryland playing extremely hard and very well.
4. Duke playing poorly.

Only 11 turnovers so I stand corrected though the ones in my mind were crucial and unforced. I hear you about the match up issues they give us but the energy they play with against us vs UNC is not the same to me.

1-4 I certainly agree with you.

On another note was it 2 3's for us for the entire second half?

mgtr
02-15-2014, 09:39 PM
I have been thinking about Mr. Cook. At least tonight, I thought he played more like he was sick than injured. He used to be Mr. Sure handling the ball, but tonight he dribbled the ball off his foot at least once and maybe twice. And all of our outside players need to study the video of Kyrie (and later Nolan) taking the ball inside on the hip to protect it. However, a win is a win, and I think that I can now put my digitalis away, and get out the sleeping potion -- the one with the black label.

Billy Dat
02-15-2014, 09:41 PM
Yes, you're right, what I meant to say was "only 1 positive that I could think of" The outstanding performance from the foul stripe was something that we weren't capable of earlier in the year. It especially hurt us against Kansas, so I'm glad to see that we've shored up that weakness and turned it into a strength.

I also agree that we played very well down the stretch, especially defensively. We didn't commit any silly fouls or give away any bad turnovers, so it's nice to know that our guys won't crap the bed in a tense situation.

kAzE - I am just trying to get you back into the light, glass is half full head space.

Wildling
02-15-2014, 09:41 PM
I don't have anything positive to take away from this game.

Cook is in K's doghouse. And K isn't giving a lot of minutes to the bench. Which means these guys will be dead tired come next Saturday.

I just don't get it with Coach K sometimes. Plumlee makes a positive impact when he get's minutes. He has earned more minutes.

mapleleafdevil
02-15-2014, 09:45 PM
Long stretches not feeding the ball to Jabari. Not a good idea.

Clay Feet POF
02-15-2014, 09:47 PM
Somewhere in CIS there is a Blue Angel!!

Billy Dat
02-15-2014, 09:48 PM
I don't have anything positive to take away from this game.

Cook is in K's doghouse. And K isn't giving a lot of minutes to the bench. Which means these guys will be dead tired come next Saturday.

I just don't get it with Coach K sometimes. Plumlee makes a positive impact when he get's minutes. He has earned more minutes.

I think Cook is still not 100% healthy, it doesn't feel like a doghouse thing, he seems to be lacking his pop.

I agree that Marshall could have gotten some more run, but Mitchell didn't play for much of the stretch run, and who would Marshall have guarded? Layman would have killed him, he can't guard Wells, or Faust, or Allen or even Smotrycz. I think K was worried about the match-up.

jv001
02-15-2014, 09:48 PM
I don't have anything positive to take away from this game.

Cook is in K's doghouse. And K isn't giving a lot of minutes to the bench. Which means these guys will be dead tired come next Saturday.

I just don't get it with Coach K sometimes. Plumlee makes a positive impact when he get's minutes. He has earned more minutes.

Doghouse? Quinn is just not playing well right now. I have to believe he's sick or his ankle injuries are not healed. I do think Marshall could have helped out on the boards. Even though he's not a good defensive rebounder. I would have liked to see some plays ran for Andre to get off a 3 after he hit the one he did make. Too much helter skelter offense at times. GoDuke!

GGLC
02-15-2014, 09:48 PM
Somewhere in CIS there is a Blue Angel!!

That angel could have done a better job with some of our wide-open three-point looks.

Duke84
02-15-2014, 09:48 PM
I don't have anything positive to take away from this game.

Cook is in K's doghouse. And K isn't giving a lot of minutes to the bench. Which means these guys will be dead tired come next Saturday.

I just don't get it with Coach K sometimes. Plumlee makes a positive impact when he get's minutes. He has earned more minutes.

I don't see Marshall Plumlee having more impact on this game than he had in his minutes. He gets his chance to show what he does - and if successful at it on any given night, he stays in a little longer. I didn't see that in this game.

NashvilleDevil
02-15-2014, 09:51 PM
I don't have anything positive to take away from this game.

Cook is in K's doghouse. And K isn't giving a lot of minutes to the bench. Which means these guys will be dead tired come next Saturday.

I just don't get it with Coach K sometimes. Plumlee makes a positive impact when he get's minutes. He has earned more minutes.

Here's one. At one point Duke was shooting 10% in the 2nd half, 10 freaking percent, and still won the game.

GGLC
02-15-2014, 09:53 PM
I don't see Marshall Plumlee having more impact on this game than he had in his minutes. He gets his chance to show what he does - and if successful at it on any given night, he stays in a little longer. I didn't see that in this game.

He did a great job being disruptive on defense. I thought it was a very positive game for him.

Duke84
02-15-2014, 09:59 PM
He did a great job being disruptive on defense. I thought it was a very positive game for him.

I pretty much said that. He did his job and deserved the minutes he got - no more, no less. More Plumlee would not have made this a 5, 10 or 15 point win, in my opinion. I would be more concerned with subpar games by the players who Duke will really need down the stretch. Right now, those players of concern to me are Quinn Cook and Rodney Hood. They had a week off and didn't look to be their best. Need them back.

GGLC
02-15-2014, 10:01 PM
I pretty much said that. He did his job and deserved the minutes he got - no more, no less. More Plumlee would not have made this a 5, 10 or 15 point win, in my opinion. I would be more concerned with subpar games by the players who Duke will really need down the stretch. Right now, those players of concern to me are Quinn Cook and Rodney Hood. They had a week off and didn't look to be their best. Need them back.

Yeah, I'm definitely not in favor of anything that gives Amile fewer minutes. :)

On another note, I found it pretty shocking how easily Maryland was able to get into the lane and score during their second half run. It's like it took almost no effort at all from them.

rogermortimer
02-15-2014, 10:01 PM
Agreed. Almost posted that I wouldn't want to be a dumpster in Maryland tonight, then I realized I wouldn't want to be anything in Maryland, any night.

The use of the word "dumpster" and the University of Maryland isn't all that off the mark. Except to alums, Maryland is a difficult school and athletic program to like. The reasons are legion: (1) the athletic department is poorly run, awash in debt and dependent on a business model which has football playing the financial role of a powerful V-8 engine, when in reality it cannot be any better than a Honda lawnmower engine - the loss to Marshall in a bowl game played in a stadium which holds 30,000 speaks eloquently to the state of affairs at Maryland (2) given the athletic department's financial problems, the move to the Big 10 was in no way strategic as it was done in desperation - I am from the midwest and no one in Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan, and so on could care less about Maryland - their brand means nothing in these areas and the projected income from the deal will in my view be illusory (3) the basketball program, despite having great facilities and being located in an exceedingly strong recruiting market, has been no better than mediocre for the past 10 years as the school is simply not an attractive draw (4) the mediocrity of the basketball program reflects the struggles the school has itself - while back in my competitive days Maryland was essentially little more than an open admissions university, it is actually quite competitive in terms of admissions today - but that doesn't help its attractiveness - so many students in Montgomery County - one of the wealthiest in the country - go anywhere, I mean anywhere, but Maryland - the sizable Maryland contingent at schools like Michigan, Pitt, Syracuse, Penn State, and so on is surprising - UVA in contrast experiences nothing like this - it is highly desired in Fairfax County and most everywhere else in the Commonwealth (5) the school's location is unfortunate as the area surrounding College Park has become increasingly dismal - almost everything about PG County is miserable - among the worst schools in the country despite the county being in the top 100 in income - the incredibly high crime - the auto thefts - the lack of physical beauty - College Park's unenviable position astride the I-95 drug corridor - the political corruption - and the list goes on and on (6) the behavior of their fans is yet another reflection of why Maryland is difficult to like - it goes beyond the boorish and sometimes violent behavior - so many of their fans have an inferiority complex, as if they know they are stuck going to an unattractive academic factory in PG County - and this of course is exemplified by the local press coverage - the Washington Post treats the Terps as an also ran source of entertainment - I don't know how many times, even on a slow sports day, that coverage of the Terps is found on the third or fourth pages of the Post's sports page - even the presence of a large number of alums don't elevate the coverage.

OK, I get it, this isn't the most balanced piece. But it really isn't even a case of Duke fans being happy or sad to see Maryland go. Maryland has simply put themselves in a position where no one really cares about them any more, save for the outcome of a lawsuit which will likely be settled at some point and which will involve Maryland spending more money than they don't have.

Duke84
02-15-2014, 10:06 PM
Yeah, I'm definitely not in favor of anything that gives Amile fewer minutes. :)

On another note, I found it pretty shocking how easily Maryland was able to get into the lane and score during their second half run. It's like it took almost no effort at all from them.

I have more relatives than you can possibly imagine who are Maryland alums. They actually grew up in College Park. Maryland recruits a team that is engineered to beat Duke. They have for 20 years. So it's no real surprise to me that they give Duke a tough game almost every time out. I don't know what they'll live for when Duke is gone.

Wildling
02-15-2014, 10:09 PM
I don't see Marshall Plumlee having more impact on this game than he had in his minutes. He gets his chance to show what he does - and if successful at it on any given night, he stays in a little longer. I didn't see that in this game.
I disagree. In 6 minutes, he had 2 points, 3 rebs and a steal. In 6 minutes..... He also altered a couple shots. 2 players had more rebounds, and they played 34 and 39 minutes respectively.

He hustles and makes plays that don't show up on the stat sheet. Not to mention it would give Jabari a break from banging inside and let him dribble drive to the hole.

Is he 1st team all ACC? No. But in my opinion, he is more of an asset then a liability.


I think Cook is still not 100% healthy, it doesn't feel like a doghouse thing, he seems to be lacking his pop.


I hope it's an injury deal and I'm overreacting. When Cook is playing to his potential, he's one of, if not the best point guard in the ACC. But when he's not playing to his potential, it's ugly.

Billy Dat
02-15-2014, 10:09 PM
The use of the word "dumpster" and the University of Maryland isn't all that off the mark.....

Rog, your well timed lancings of the Terp boil are always welcome. I just went back and read some of your prior iterations after enjoying this one so much. Well played, sir.

BlueandWhite
02-15-2014, 10:13 PM
Cook had a rough night. So Coach K went with Thornton down the stretch .

Cook's issues seem to be nearly 100% mental. He's too talented to just have "rough nights" with lackadaisical play like we saw tonight.

Clay Feet POF
02-15-2014, 10:15 PM
That angel could have done a better job with some of our wide-open three-point looks.

Coffee Break!

Duke84
02-15-2014, 10:21 PM
I disagree. In 6 minutes, he had 2 points, 3 rebs and a steal. In 6 minutes..... He also altered a couple shots. 2 players had more rebounds, and they played 34 and 39 minutes respectively.

He hustles and makes plays that don't show up on the stat sheet. Not to mention it would give Jabari a break from banging inside and let him dribble drive to the hole.

Is he 1st team all ACC? No. But in my opinion, he is more of an asset then a liability.



I hope it's an injury deal and I'm overreacting. When Cook is playing to his potential, he's one of, if not the best point guard in the ACC. But when he's not playing to his potential, it's ugly.

Everyone here has favorites, and has from the day DBR was launched. There are crazies with Alex Murphy jerseys and silent g fan tribute sites. I waited three years for Doug McNeely to make a shot that counted. I like MP3. But he's no game changer. Even in this game. You get what you get in his minutes right now.

Wildling
02-15-2014, 10:22 PM
That angel could have done a better job with some of our wide-open three-point looks.

I think we need to give Maryland's defense some credit for the poor shooting.

The 1-3-1 zone they were using made Duke rush those 3 point attempts. It didn't seem like it was in the flow of the offense to me. I thought they were very effective at disrupting the flow of Duke's offense with that zone trap.

devilwood
02-15-2014, 10:23 PM
I do not understand all of the negative posts. This was a great effort to beat a team playing to their potential (Md - which they have not been doing all year) in a very emotional situation. Our team is great. They made the plays when they needed to. One thing is their mindset - when the refs gave the ball to Md and put time back on the clock, when the decision was relayed to K, he immediately went to work on the next play. No griping, no complaining, he was completely focused. Jabari spoke of it when he was interviewed after the game, as well - they saw that development as a "no change" - we were going to have to play defense, anyway, no matter what happened. These guys are mentally at a very high level. Shots that usually fall were not falling, and they still found a way to win. Be proud!

moonpie23
02-15-2014, 10:24 PM
Real mixed emotions right now. It's a real shame that's the last time we'll see Maryland in CIS. And I'm not being sarcastic.

.

you mean, like, "it's a real shame i'm not slamming my finger in the car door anymore?" kind os shame?

Wildling
02-15-2014, 10:25 PM
Everyone here has favorites, and has from the day DBR was launched. There are crazies with Alex Murphy jerseys and silent g fan tribute sites. I waited three years for Doug McNeely to make a shot that counted. I like MP3. But he's no game changer. Even in this game. You get what you get in his minutes right now.

He's not my favorite by any stretch. Duke lacks size. And we have a guy with size who makes a positive impact when he plays. To me that spells minutes. More than he's getting.

GGLC
02-15-2014, 10:27 PM
I think we need to give Maryland's defense some credit for the poor shooting.

The 1-3-1 zone they were using made Duke rush those 3 point attempts. It didn't seem like it was in the flow of the offense to me. I thought they were very effective at disrupting the flow of Duke's offense with that zone trap.

Definitely agree that Maryland did a great job defensively and we didn't adjust to their look as well as we could have. Our problems were compounded by missing a number of open shots, though.

azzefkram
02-15-2014, 10:29 PM
A win is a win.

The good stuff
- Amile making good plays both on the offensive end and the defensive end. His strip of Wells was the co-play of the game with Tyler's tip.
- Marshall playing very well. 3 boards, a putback and a steal in 6 minutes. I would have liked to see more minutes for him but that would have meant less of Amile.
- We got to the free throw line and made them
- It wasn't pretty but we closed out the game.

The not so good stuff
- I don't have the words to describe how much I dislike putting a player back in with two fouls in the first half. It is such a high risk, low reward move and, in this game, nearly bit us in the tush.
- Our board work wasn't very good.
- Our O in the second half was dreadful. Maryland is a respectable defensive team and they do pose some match-up issues but they shouldn't be able to make us look ordinary.
- Quinn is just not right at the moment. I don't know if it's injury or a slump but we need him to get better. The half court O runs a lot better when he's in there.

GGLC
02-15-2014, 10:29 PM
I do not understand all of the negative posts. This was a great effort to beat a team playing to their potential (Md - which they have not been doing all year) in a very emotional situation. Our team is great. They made the plays when they needed to. One thing is their mindset - when the refs gave the ball to Md and put time back on the clock, when the decision was relayed to K, he immediately went to work on the next play. No griping, no complaining, he was completely focused. Jabari spoke of it when he was interviewed after the game, as well - they saw that development as a "no change" - we were going to have to play defense, anyway, no matter what happened. These guys are mentally at a very high level. Shots that usually fall were not falling, and they still found a way to win. Be proud!

I don't call what we did for most of the second half as a great effort at all. Reasonable minds can differ, though.

Wildling
02-15-2014, 10:29 PM
Definitely agree that Maryland did a great job defensively and we didn't adjust to their look as well as we could have. Our problems were compounded by missing a number of open shots, though.

Agreed. If we hit just a couple of those open 3's, I suppose I'm not being such a negative nanny tonight!

mapei
02-15-2014, 10:29 PM
I won't miss UMCP at ALL. Living in DC, and being a Georgetown alum (as well as Duke fan), I'm sick of all the media coverage they get. Try listening to sports radio around here - they openly root for the Terps and ignore other local teams, including GWU, which is having a good year. (The Hoyas are having an off year, but for the last decade they have been much better than Maryland.) Then the way their fans act toward Duke is shameful, far beyond a mere sports "rivalry." Good riddance. Syracuse has the potential to be a much better #2 rival to UNCCH.

That said, UMCP gets up for Duke like no other team gets up for anyone. Tonight they made Duke look mediocre, and if they had shot better or gotten a few breaks from the refs it might not have been close. Major props to Amile and Jabari, and to Tyler when Quinn was . . . what, exactly, other than MIA?

Agree with a couple of other posters who felt like that last shot from Mitchell was going to hang on the rim and go in. Whew. I feel relief but little joy over this game.

FerryFor50
02-15-2014, 10:29 PM
I have a big problem with that shot clock violation. Yes, the ball didn't hit the rim and so it should have been a violation. But I don't think the refs should be able to go back and change the call. The refs only reviewed the play then because we called a timeout immediately. First of all, you shouldn't penalize Duke for calling a timeout by changing the call. Second, what if Amile kicked it out and Duke burned 10 more seconds off the clock? Do you go back and give the ball to Maryland? What if Duke hit a three before the next dead ball? Does that come off too?

It's one thing to review which team hit the ball out of bounds or whether a shooter had a foot on the three point line because more time has not come off the clock before the review. But to go "back in time" and change a crucial call after play continued does not seem fair to me. Sure, here it was only 2 seconds and doesn't seem like a big deal. But other times there will be more unfair consequences.

Agreed.

And if they went back in time to call the shot clock violation, why not call the foul on Amile's shot attempt while you were at it? He missed so badly because he got hit on the elbow.

jipops
02-15-2014, 10:30 PM
Quinn is definitely in a downward spiral initiated by his injuries. How hurt he is we can't know, but he is a different player. At one point, Nate was giving him a pep talk on the bench, and he didn't start the second half. The thing is, Rasheed's explosion back onto the scene kind of mitigates Quinn. He's a better defender, his playmaking has come a really long way (he's very effective at the drive and kick), and his slashing is heading to a new level making him a very very tough guard. Thornton played great tonight, despite the foul trouble. Before Rasheed's recovery this season, I had Quinn pegged as our second most important player after Jabari. Now, I am not as worried about his poor play, but would still like to see him get back to where he was.

I don't entirely agree with Rasheed's pg play. Yes he can drive and dish but he does tend to dominate the ball leaving other scorers standing and waiting. His drives are of course valuable but the offense overall is better when it goes through Quinn. We attained the most efficient offense in the country with him at the point. I actually think we're diminished a good deal if Quinn is no longer on his game and Rasheed takes over play making duties.

azzefkram
02-15-2014, 10:40 PM
I pretty much said that. He did his job and deserved the minutes he got - no more, no less. More Plumlee would not have made this a 5, 10 or 15 point win, in my opinion. I would be more concerned with subpar games by the players who Duke will really need down the stretch. Right now, those players of concern to me are Quinn Cook and Rodney Hood. They had a week off and didn't look to be their best. Need them back.

I think you are minimizing Marshall's contributions. Three boards, a put-back, a steal, two drawn fouls and high energy with no TOs or fouls in six minutes is a really good game. Marshall did deserve more minutes. Unfortunately for him, Amile deserved them more.

MaxAMillion
02-15-2014, 10:42 PM
I do not understand all of the negative posts. This was a great effort to beat a team playing to their potential (Md - which they have not been doing all year) in a very emotional situation. Our team is great. They made the plays when they needed to. One thing is their mindset - when the refs gave the ball to Md and put time back on the clock, when the decision was relayed to K, he immediately went to work on the next play. No griping, no complaining, he was completely focused. Jabari spoke of it when he was interviewed after the game, as well - they saw that development as a "no change" - we were going to have to play defense, anyway, no matter what happened. These guys are mentally at a very high level. Shots that usually fall were not falling, and they still found a way to win. Be proud!

Because some fans have expectations that Duke should never struggle. You look all around college basketball and you see top teams struggle but somehow Duke should be different. Just ridiculous expectations is all.

GGLC
02-15-2014, 10:48 PM
Because some fans have expectations that Duke should never struggle. You look all around college basketball and you see top teams struggle but somehow Duke should be different. Just ridiculous expectations is all.

Show me anyone in this thread who has the expectation that Duke should never struggle.

I respectfully suggest that you are micharacterizing people who are simply observing that we had stretches of poor play and were pretty fortunate to come away with the win.

Duke84
02-15-2014, 11:00 PM
I think you are minimizing Marshall's contributions. Three boards, a put-back, a steal, two drawn fouls and high energy with no TOs or fouls in six minutes is a really good game. Marshall did deserve more minutes. Unfortunately for him, Amile deserved them more.

I think I am accurately characterizing MP's minutes. On the one hand (yours), he was on a pace for 12 points, 18 rebounds and 6 steals if he'd have played 36 minutes. On the other hand, he'd have scored zero points if his putback rimmed out. You know, math. He's a bench player now, and to me he played the bench minutes that he should have played in this game. I understand if you disagree.

gep
02-15-2014, 11:10 PM
I have a big problem with that shot clock violation. Yes, the ball didn't hit the rim and so it should have been a violation. But I don't think the refs should be able to go back and change the call. The refs only reviewed the play then because we called a timeout immediately. First of all, you shouldn't penalize Duke for calling a timeout by changing the call. Second, what if Amile kicked it out and Duke burned 10 more seconds off the clock? Do you go back and give the ball to Maryland? What if Duke hit a three before the next dead ball? Does that come off too?

It's one thing to review which team hit the ball out of bounds or whether a shooter had a foot on the three point line because more time has not come off the clock before the review. But to go "back in time" and change a crucial call after play continued does not seem fair to me. Sure, here it was only 2 seconds and doesn't seem like a big deal. But other times there will be more unfair consequences.


I agree with this completely. Extremely well-said. If we had lost because of that shot clock violation (especially when Amile was pretty clearly fouled during his shot), I would have been livid.

Would love to know how they would have handled the situation if Amile had kicked it out rather than calling a timeout.

I don't know the rules... but if Amile *did* get the ball out to the perimeter with no stop in play, what really would have happened? Would play have continued with no ability to review the shot clock violation? Is it like football that once the ball is snapped, the previous play is "over"?:confused: At least they gave Duke the timeout back... I was screaming for that:cool:

ricks68
02-15-2014, 11:11 PM
I, too, was kind of dismayed after Marshall was last put in the game. He disrupts their offense, gets a rebound and then a great put back after a teammate's missed shot, and gets pulled immediately afterwards at a time out. I think he was put in for Rodney at the time due to Rodney's foul trouble. We had been getting killed on the inside, both offensively and defensively, up until then. So, why did he never return? Rodney had been having a terrible night up until then. I think that it was a big mistake to not let Marshall continue playing IMHO.

ricks

Waynne
02-15-2014, 11:13 PM
Positive game for our team, because it proved we can win a game when we can't hit the broad side of a barn and when our D leaves something to be desired. We were out of sync both on O and D but our guys played hard, were tough, and gritted out an important win. Good teams have to be able to do that. Huge week coming up.

Newton_14
02-15-2014, 11:15 PM
I don't have anything positive to take away from this game.

Cook is in K's doghouse. And K isn't giving a lot of minutes to the bench. Which means these guys will be dead tired come next Saturday.

I just don't get it with Coach K sometimes. Plumlee makes a positive impact when he get's minutes. He has earned more minutes.

NOt sure I follow. K used the bench exclusively most of the night. Way moreso than times past when only 6 maybe 7 guys would see the floor in a game like that. Have not seen the box score but just going from memory he subbed very liberally in the first half, using Rasheed, Andre, Matt, and Marshall off the bench. K went 9 deep in both halves trying to keep guys fresh in a very tight game. In years past in a tight, high intense game like tonight we would have seen 7, maybe 8 guys in the first half, and then 6 in all of the second half. He did not do that at all tonight. Playing 9 guys in both halves is the very definition of going deep and utilizing the bench, and goes against the grain of what K has typically done for years. I was surprised it was not 10 deep with Josh getting in, but I will remind folks again, we never know when illness or minor injury earns a kid a DNP, especially a bench role player where Duke is absolutely not going to disclose a minor injury or illness.

I thought our guys played really hard, played good defense except for a few lapses on runouts. maryland played at a high level on both ends, and hit some tough shots even in the paint when defended well. It came down to our guys just having a poor shooting night mostly. I do credit Maryland's defense too. They played a very strange/odd looking 1-3-1 zone with tall lengthy guys way out front. Just a weird look that definitely gave us trouble.

I could not be prouder of our defense and mental toughness in those last 3 minutes though. I thought it fitting we got the win with a huge defense stop vs getting it with a great offensive play at the end. We did make two very strong offensive plays down the stretch with the Rasheed 3 and then Jabari's grown man dunk play to give us the lead back. A huge play and I thought he got fouled. They called everything else all night so why that was a non-call that made little sense at all.

The little short bald headed white ref is the absolute worse ref in the ACC. He makes bad calls time an time again in every game he refs. I have seen him in many non-Duke games and he is just awful.

All in all, another growing experience for the team having to find a way to win when the offense is not clicking very well. Also a fitting way to end the Maryland series. Much better to win a squeaker where the Terps thought they were fixing to pull the upset. Has more impact than just coasting to a 10-12 point lead imo,

Waynne
02-15-2014, 11:16 PM
I, too, was kind of dismayed after Marshall was last put in the game. He disrupts their offense, gets a rebound and then a great put back after a teammate's missed shot, and gets pulled immediately afterwards at a time out. I think he was put in for Rodney at the time due to Rodney's foul trouble. We had been getting killed on the inside, both offensively and defensively, up until then. So, why did he never return? Rodney had been having a terrible night up until then. I think that it was a big mistake to not let Marshall continue playing IMHO.

ricks

Agree good things happened the 6 minutes Marshall was in the game.

MaxAMillion
02-15-2014, 11:20 PM
Show me anyone in this thread who has the expectation that Duke should never struggle.

I respectfully suggest that you are micharacterizing people who are simply observing that we had stretches of poor play and were pretty fortunate to come away with the win.

Go look at the last page and you will see a post saying there is nothing positive to take away from a game that Duke wins. If that isn't a sign that expectations are out of whack then I don't know what better example there could be.

Atlanta Duke
02-15-2014, 11:21 PM
I bet Juan Dixon is really bummed about their move.

I mean, there's nothing there for them in the Big 10. Who is their rival going to be? Penn St.?

Yep - this from football coach Randy Edsall

Maryland’s football program will have an easier time breaking away from the Atlantic Coast Conference than other schools, Edsall said, because the Terps are not leaving behind a rival. Games against Penn State will likely produce a more fervent atmosphere than the schools current “rivals,” he said.

“In the two years that I’ve been here you really couldn’t tell me who our rival is in football,” Edsall said. “Because I haven’t seen it from the standpoint of the energy, the excitement and everything else.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2013/03/27/maryland-football-coach-edsall-on.html?page=all

FerryFor50
02-15-2014, 11:22 PM
Go look at the last page and you will see a post saying there is nothing positive to take away from a game that Duke wins. If that isn't a sign that expectations are out of whack then I don't know what better example there could be.

Generally, most posters take positives and negatives from every game. Sometimes you get one or two that are only satisfied when Duke shoots 70% from the field and wins by 30.

FerryFor50
02-15-2014, 11:24 PM
Yep - this from football coach Randy Edsall

Maryland’s football program will have an easier time breaking away from the Atlantic Coast Conference than other schools, Edsall said, because the Terps are not leaving behind a rival. Games against Penn State will likely produce a more fervent atmosphere than the schools current “rivals,” he said.

“In the two years that I’ve been here you really couldn’t tell me who our rival is in football,” Edsall said. “Because I haven’t seen it from the standpoint of the energy, the excitement and everything else.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2013/03/27/maryland-football-coach-edsall-on.html?page=all

Want rivals? Have a good football team.

Edsall is 13-24 at Maryland.

Atlanta Duke
02-15-2014, 11:25 PM
I bet Juan Dixon is really bummed about their move.

I mean, there's nothing there for them in the Big 10. Who is their rival going to be? Penn St.?

Yep - this from football coach Randy Edsall

Maryland’s football program will have an easier time breaking away from the Atlantic Coast Conference than other schools, Edsall said, because the Terps are not leaving behind a rival. Games against Penn State will likely produce a more fervent atmosphere than the schools current “rivals,” he said.

“In the two years that I’ve been here you really couldn’t tell me who our rival is in football,” Edsall said. “Because I haven’t seen it from the standpoint of the energy, the excitement and everything else.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2013/03/27/maryland-football-coach-edsall-on.html?page=all

Gary also thinks it is a good move to renew what Maryland thinks is a rivalry with Penn State while escaping ACC basketball co-hegemons Duke and North Carolina.

Williams thinks that many older fans will look forward to renewing a rivalry with Penn State in football -- the teams last played in 1993 -- and that the basketball team will get out from the shadow of Duke and North Carolina to play in what is arguably a stronger league right now.

"Who's our rival in football? You can't come up with a name and neither can I," Williams said. "Who's our rival in basketball? We can say Duke and Carolina, but we basically will be playing them once a year now. Duke and Carolina, that's the rivalry. They don't look at it as Maryland being their rival. The old ACC where you play everyone twice a year and see who's the best team at the end of the year, that's not happening anymore. The Big Ten, last I checked, had five teams in the top 20 in basketball."

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2012-11-18/sports/bal-excoach-gary-williams-says-move-to-big-ten-would-help-university-of-maryland-20121118_1_big-ten-network-gary-williams-maryland-athletic-director

GGLC
02-15-2014, 11:29 PM
Go look at the last page and you will see a post saying there is nothing positive to take away from a game that Duke wins. If that isn't a sign that expectations are out of whack then I don't know what better example there could be.

The final score goes without saying.

Was the Vermont game an unqualified success in your eyes as well?

Newton_14
02-15-2014, 11:30 PM
Generally, most posters take positives and negatives from every game. Sometimes you get one or two that are only satisfied when Duke shoots 70% from the field and wins by 30.

Max does have a point though. There is a small faction here that feels it is their God given birthright to watch Duke blowout every single opponent home and away, an by God if that does not happen, they are fit to be tied and rip the players an coaches to shreds in their posts. Every single team is going to go through bad stretches and struggle in certain games no matter how good they are. just the way college hoops works. We have to be realists. Over the years I only get really upset if it is a very high level/really good/great Duke team, and they lay an egg against a team that has absolutely no business beating them. Does not happen often though, and with the parity today, the opportunity for that circumstance is just not as prevalent as in years past. Most of the lower teams are more than capable of pulling an upset on any given night.

The Vermont game this year was the only one that really dismayed me. The clemson and ND games I wrote off to odd circumstances...

UrinalCake
02-15-2014, 11:32 PM
Did anyone notice that Coach K used the Zoubek/Butler game missed FT at the end to seal it? Works a lot better with less than 2 seconds left.

That's exactly what I was thinking about when Amile stepped to the line for his second shot. Though the circumstances were not exactly the same:

- 1-ish seconds left rather than 3-ish seconds, as you stated
- In the Butler game, Coach K said afterwards that he felt like if the game went into overtime we would lose, based on fatigue and the crowd. In this game that wasn't the case; I would have felt pretty comfortable going into OT.
- Maryland helped us out by heaving the ball immediately, when really they had time to take a dribble and then shoot moving towards the basket
- I couldn't actually tell if Amile was trying to miss that free throw or not. It was good that he missed it short rather than missing it long (which my fuzzy memory tells me that Zoubek did)... missing it long makes the ball bounce up where it's easier to corral and then make your move.

BobbyFan
02-15-2014, 11:36 PM
Loving me some Amile - I'd like to see him be even more offensive minded. He can score well down low and it would open up the outside

Amile could have had a few more FGs in this game (and in earlier games as well) had we had found him open near the basket, often the result of a screen with him dropping free towards the basket.

House G
02-15-2014, 11:39 PM
Long stretches not feeding the ball to Jabari. Not a good idea.

By my estimation, the only time Jabari had the ball in the last three minutes of the game was for his monster dunk. Meanwhile, Maryland is running their offense through Dez Wells every time. He is even posting our big guys up right under the basket. Jabari is arguably the best player in college basketball--if I am going to lose a game, I would like to go down with the ball in his hands.

Troublemaker
02-15-2014, 11:59 PM
Amile had similar thoughts (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209408272) to what I said upthread about needing a close game:


On how a close game like this helps Duke:
“It definitely helps us, especially moving forward, because we’re going to be in tough, close games. To have that under our belt, knowing that we’re going to have to do that again, probably multiple times, is really good for our guys. I think a game like this is just going to bring us closer. We bonded, especially on that last play. Guys were talking, guys were scrambling, switching, and it was great to see. I think Jabari [Parker] ended up on the point guard at one point, just through switching. It was great – our guys really buckled down and got a stop.”


On what Maryland was doing defensively against Duke:
“I think they were playing really hard. They’re a really physical team and they have some big guys. But we just couldn’t find the net today. Shots just weren’t going down. I think we were getting really good shots – Duke shots, shots that we normally hit. They just weren’t falling. For a while, we had a lapse where couldn’t make shots and couldn’t get stops. But then we buckled down after the timeout and we started getting stops again, and that really helped us to win the game.”

Watching the postgame interviews, it seems our coaches and players thought this was a very good win, unlike their reactions following the Vermont win. I'm inclined to agree with them.

The close win here won't have any predictive value or bearing on future games, imo. Except perhaps in a positive fashion, in that the next time we play a close game, we'll be a little bit more comfortable because of this experience.

miramar
02-16-2014, 12:12 AM
I previously noted that before the last in-bounds play, Mitchell spent five seconds in the lane and walked twice, at the ten and eight second marks (both were of the bunny hop variety, as Chick Hearn used to say). I went back to the last 6.4 seconds, and it turns out that he took four steps before he took the shot that fortunately rolled out.

I know it's harder when you are watching the game live, but the refs should be able to spot four violations in just over ten seconds of action.

UrinalCake
02-16-2014, 12:39 AM
I think Jabari [Parker] ended up on the point guard at one point, just through switching.

According to the announcers, it was Maryland's game plan to use our switches to create mismatches, which would then allow them to drive past our guys and get to the basket. Worked pretty well for most of the second half.

NYBri
02-16-2014, 01:13 AM
Don't like Hood running the show at the top of the key. Don't get enough good looks.

Kedsy
02-16-2014, 01:24 AM
(seemed like there was a big regression toward one-on-one play when the lead started to shrink)

I agree with this for the most part. For the first time this season I thought our problem was on the offensive end, rather than defensive.


I don't have anything positive to take away from this game.

Oh, please. I thought we played pretty well. You can't blow every team out of the water. Maryland played well, but we took their best shot and won the game. To me, that's a huge positive.


Cook is in K's doghouse.

He only played 14 minutes, and I hope that doesn't continue, but I didn't get the feeling that K was mad at him, or anything else that would suggest a doghouse, other than the low minutes.


And K isn't giving a lot of minutes to the bench. Which means these guys will be dead tired come next Saturday.

Seriously? I don't know what's the appropriate letter/number combination from Throatybeard's manifesto for this, but they're either going to be dead tired no matter what, or the number of bench minutes isn't going to make any difference at all. I'm so tired of this debate.


I don't see Marshall Plumlee having more impact on this game than he had in his minutes. He gets his chance to show what he does - and if successful at it on any given night, he stays in a little longer. I didn't see that in this game.

Totally disagree. Despite his 7 and 7 game earlier in the season, I thought this was Marshall's best game of the season. He really showed me something tonight. I'm still not sure we could justify him playing much more than 10 mpg this season, but he looked really good on both sides of the court tonight.


I do not understand all of the negative posts. This was a great effort to beat a team playing to their potential (Md - which they have not been doing all year) in a very emotional situation. Our team is great. They made the plays when they needed to. One thing is their mindset - when the refs gave the ball to Md and put time back on the clock, when the decision was relayed to K, he immediately went to work on the next play. No griping, no complaining, he was completely focused. Jabari spoke of it when he was interviewed after the game, as well - they saw that development as a "no change" - we were going to have to play defense, anyway, no matter what happened. These guys are mentally at a very high level. Shots that usually fall were not falling, and they still found a way to win. Be proud!

Preach on, brother. I'm totally with you.


A win is a win.

The good stuff
- Amile making good plays both on the offensive end and the defensive end. His strip of Wells was the co-play of the game with Tyler's tip.
- Marshall playing very well. 3 boards, a putback and a steal in 6 minutes. I would have liked to see more minutes for him but that would have meant less of Amile.
- We got to the free throw line and made them
- It wasn't pretty but we closed out the game.

The not so good stuff
- I don't have the words to describe how much I dislike putting a player back in with two fouls in the first half. It is such a high risk, low reward move and, in this game, nearly bit us in the tush.
- Our board work wasn't very good.
- Our O in the second half was dreadful. Maryland is a respectable defensive team and they do pose some match-up issues but they shouldn't be able to make us look ordinary.
- Quinn is just not right at the moment. I don't know if it's injury or a slump but we need him to get better. The half court O runs a lot better when he's in there.

I made the same comment (to myself) when K put Rodney back in at the end of the first half. Oh well. I agree with most of your points, but actually I thought our board work was pretty good. Amile and Jabari were both outstanding on the boards tonight.

For whatever reason, that 1-3-1 completely flummoxed us. Hopefully, next time someone throws a junk D at us, we'll respond better.

I completely agree that the offense works better when Quinn is in control. And I disagree with those who thought Rasheed did a good job running the team tonight. I don't think it's a coincedence that our worst offensive showing came when Quinn played his fewest minutes of the season.

Rasheed looked great on his two opening drives and hit probably the biggest shot of the game with his three at the end, but he didn't score another basket and he never seemed to look for his teammates. To me it appeared he put his head down and looked to drive the lane every single time he touched the ball. Several times, Amile screened for him and rolled to an open spot, but Rasheed didn't even look up. He rarely if ever passed to Andre, or Rodney, or even Jabari. He needs to improve drastically if he's going to be our primary PG.


By my estimation, the only time Jabari had the ball in the last three minutes of the game was for his monster dunk. Meanwhile, Maryland is running their offense through Dez Wells every time. He is even posting our big guys up right under the basket. Jabari is arguably the best player in college basketball--if I am going to lose a game, I would like to go down with the ball in his hands.

I couldn't believe that after Wells decimated us for the entire second half, he didn't touch the ball on Maryland's last two possessions. I get that they wanted Mitchell to go after it since we had nobody who could match up with him sizewise, but I sure breathed a sigh of relief when Mitchell and not Wells got the ball.

heyman25
02-16-2014, 01:37 AM
Glad we won this nailbiter.Rasheed, Quinn, and Tyler did not impress me with their point guard duties. Amile saved the game. Jabari came through on a critical possession.

Quinn may be spending some time on the pine next season when Tyus Jones takes over. Our guards need to focus on making better decisions in the half court offense.Dez Wells smoked our guards on the defensive end. If Mitchell had hit that point blank shot it would have been OT.

1999ballboy
02-16-2014, 01:52 AM
Dear Seth Allen: this is how games end when, as a visiting player, you dare to come into Cameron and slap our floor. Now don't ever come back.

Wildling
02-16-2014, 01:54 AM
Max does have a point though. There is a small faction here that feels it is their God given birthright to watch Duke blowout every single opponent home and away, an by God if that does not happen, they are fit to be tied and rip the players an coaches to shreds in their posts. Every single team is going to go through bad stretches and struggle in certain games no matter how good they are. just the way college hoops works. We have to be realists. Over the years I only get really upset if it is a very high level/really good/great Duke team, and they lay an egg against a team that has absolutely no business beating them. Does not happen often though, and with the parity today, the opportunity for that circumstance is just not as prevalent as in years past. Most of the lower teams are more than capable of pulling an upset on any given night.

The Vermont game this year was the only one that really dismayed me. The clemson and ND games I wrote off to odd circumstances...

I know some of these comments you and MaxAMillion are making are directed at me. And that's fine.

I didn't say, nor do I expect Duke to blow out teams that have less talent than they do every time they play. Please don't put words in my mouth either. I haven't ripped anyone to shreds. I stated my opinion, and I stand by it. I understand that you guys feel differently. But I, unlike you guys, can respect your opinion.

I thought the effort was okay, execution on both ends of the floor was poor for a good portion of the game. I also thought it wasn't one of Coach K better coaching jobs. He's allowed a bad night once in a while, so are the kids. That doesn't mean we can't point that out does it?

I fully expect a better effort these next 3 games. Coach K isn't the greatest coach in the NCAA by accident! But as of right now, at this moment, as a fan, I'm not happy with what I saw tonight. I'll take the win, but I don't feel good about it.

I apologize if I expect a more comfortable win against lessor talent teams than most of the regulars here. Next time I'll keep my opinions to myself unless they win by 30 :rolleyes:

papa whiskey
02-16-2014, 01:59 AM
I just want to say that I have talked a great deal of smack to my Maryland leaning friends about their departure to the BIG whatever. I have to be honest however in saying that I can't blame them for leaving. Maryland is not exactly a powerhouse in the ACC. This is not anyone's fault but their own of course. If they were winning 28 games a year in basketball or 11 games in football, they would surely be much more of a player. However, I think they would leave anyway, even if they were. The Big 10 offered them a better financial situation than the ACC could offer. Their super booster agreed and helped steer their administration toward leaving. It was fitting that the crazies were chanting ACC...ACC...ACC... as the clock expired tonight. But is there any doubt in anyone's mind that if future circumstances should see the ACC crumbling and other conferences come calling, and let's say for example the almighty SEC came calling to Duke, UNC, GaTech, CLemson, FSU, VaTech, or any combination including Duke, you might just hear three different letters echoing through Cameron? I certainly hope not, and I hate seeing a founding member leave. But don't get all butthurt about it. They are chasing the bottom line. Just like Miami and VaTech and BC and Syracuse, and Pitt. Just like Mizzou and A&M. Just like Duke and/or UNC might do if they are ever given an offer they can't refuse.

Wildling
02-16-2014, 02:26 AM
Oh, please. I thought we played pretty well. You can't blow every team out of the water. Maryland played well, but we took their best shot and won the game. To me, that's a huge positive.

See my above post.


He only played 14 minutes, and I hope that doesn't continue, but I didn't get the feeling that K was mad at him, or anything else that would suggest a doghouse, other than the low minutes.

He's not playing well, hanging his head and making silly mistakes. The lack of minutes reflect that. To me, that equals the dog house. Hopefully it's the injuries that's the problem and I am overreacting. I'm praying that's the case! We need him to play well.

Edouble
02-16-2014, 02:37 AM
He's not playing well, hanging his head and making silly mistakes. The lack of minutes reflect that. To me, that equals the dog house. Hopefully it's the injuries that's the problem and I am overreacting. I'm praying that's the case! We need him to play well.

No, that's really not the dog house. I don't think it's just a matter of semantics either. When you're in Coach K's dog house, there is no question about it. Everybody knows that you are in the dog house, because you are not playing at all. Players that have been in the dog house include Greg Newton, Ricky Price, and earlier this year, Rasheed Sulaimon.

Thornton was having a really good game, and so he got the nod to close things out over Quinn, who was not having a great game. Quinn's minutes were down because he wasn't playing as well as our other guards were, but that doesn't put him in the dog house.

Duke84
02-16-2014, 05:05 AM
I think Chip Engelland was the first inhabitant of Coach K's doghouse. Ironic when you consider that he could hit from 25 feet in his sleep.

jv001
02-16-2014, 07:28 AM
I agree with this for the most part. For the first time this season I thought our problem was on the offensive end, rather than defensive.



Oh, please. I thought we played pretty well. You can't blow every team out of the water. Maryland played well, but we took their best shot and won the game. To me, that's a huge positive.



He only played 14 minutes, and I hope that doesn't continue, but I didn't get the feeling that K was mad at him, or anything else that would suggest a doghouse, other than the low minutes.



Seriously? I don't know what's the appropriate letter/number combination from Throatybeard's manifesto for this, but they're either going to be dead tired no matter what, or the number of bench minutes isn't going to make any difference at all. I'm so tired of this debate.



Totally disagree. Despite his 7 and 7 game earlier in the season, I thought this was Marshall's best game of the season. He really showed me something tonight. I'm still not sure we could justify him playing much more than 10 mpg this season, but he looked really good on both sides of the court tonight.



Preach on, brother. I'm totally with you.



I made the same comment (to myself) when K put Rodney back in at the end of the first half. Oh well. I agree with most of your points, but actually I thought our board work was pretty good. Amile and Jabari were both outstanding on the boards tonight.

For whatever reason, that 1-3-1 completely flummoxed us. Hopefully, next time someone throws a junk D at us, we'll respond better.

I completely agree that the offense works better when Quinn is in control. And I disagree with those who thought Rasheed did a good job running the team tonight. I don't think it's a coincedence that our worst offensive showing came when Quinn played his fewest minutes of the season.

Rasheed looked great on his two opening drives and hit probably the biggest shot of the game with his three at the end, but he didn't score another basket and he never seemed to look for his teammates. To me it appeared he put his head down and looked to drive the lane every single time he touched the ball. Several times, Amile screened for him and rolled to an open spot, but Rasheed didn't even look up. He rarely if ever passed to Andre, or Rodney, or even Jabari. He needs to improve drastically if he's going to be our primary PG.



I couldn't believe that after Wells decimated us for the entire second half, he didn't touch the ball on Maryland's last two possessions. I get that they wanted Mitchell to go after it since we had nobody who could match up with him sizewise, but I sure breathed a sigh of relief when Mitchell and not Wells got the ball.

Most of the time I agree with every thing you post, but on this I don't. Well, I do in a way. I think Coach K sees that Quinn is not himself right now. He's lost his quickness and his confidence. When the Terps went to their 1-3-1 zone, Quinn made a couple of lazy passes and didn't have the quickness to penetrate. When Coach put TT in our offense ran much smoother. I do believe that it's an injury that's holding Quinn back because of the lack of quickness. He's usually good in half court sets and at one time was getting into the lane, but he can't do that now. If it's his ankle, I wish Coach K would have sit him for a couple of games. If it's his confidence and not his health, he'll have to play through it like Rasheed did. I also think we should have run some set plays to get Andre open. I think he would have hit a couple more and that would have open up the middle a little more. GoDuke!

Newton_14
02-16-2014, 07:28 AM
I know some of these comments you and MaxAMillion are making are directed at me. And that's fine.

I didn't say, nor do I expect Duke to blow out teams that have less talent than they do every time they play. Please don't put words in my mouth either. I haven't ripped anyone to shreds. I stated my opinion, and I stand by it. I understand that you guys feel differently. But I, unlike you guys, can respect your opinion.

I thought the effort was okay, execution on both ends of the floor was poor for a good portion of the game. I also thought it wasn't one of Coach K better coaching jobs. He's allowed a bad night once in a while, so are the kids. That doesn't mean we can't point that out does it?

I fully expect a better effort these next 3 games. Coach K isn't the greatest coach in the NCAA by accident! But as of right now, at this moment, as a fan, I'm not happy with what I saw tonight. I'll take the win, but I don't feel good about it.

I apologize if I expect a more comfortable win against lessor talent teams than most of the regulars here. Next time I'll keep my opinions to myself unless they win by 30 :rolleyes:

Actually no, my comments were not directed at you at all. Sorry if it came across as such. Our offense was not clicking at all last night, but the effort and energy were great. Meanwhile Maryland conitnued their recent trend of playing well. End result was a two point game.

Newton_14
02-16-2014, 07:36 AM
No, that's really not the dog house. I don't think it's just a matter of semantics either. When you're in Coach K's dog house, there is no question about it. Everybody knows that you are in the dog house, because you are not playing at all. Players that have been in the dog house include Greg Newton, Ricky Price, and earlier this year, Rasheed Sulaimon.

Thornton was having a really good game, and so he got the nod to close things out over Quinn, who was not having a great game. Quinn's minutes were down because he wasn't playing as well as our other guards were, but that doesn't put him in the dog house.

I fully agree. Not a doghouse situation in my few. Quinn is just really struggling and not playing with any kind of verve or confidence. With that K is limiting his minutes and trying to coach him back to his normal self. To his credit, Quinn is staying engaged and being a great teammate on the sidelines. Often the first off the bench to congratulate teammates. K did start him yesterday as well.

I think he bounces back before all is said and done.

NashvilleDevil
02-16-2014, 07:44 AM
I do not understand all of the negative posts. This was a great effort to beat a team playing to their potential (Md - which they have not been doing all year) in a very emotional situation. Our team is great. They made the plays when they needed to. One thing is their mindset - when the refs gave the ball to Md and put time back on the clock, when the decision was relayed to K, he immediately went to work on the next play. No griping, no complaining, he was completely focused. Jabari spoke of it when he was interviewed after the game, as well - they saw that development as a "no change" - we were going to have to play defense, anyway, no matter what happened. These guys are mentally at a very high level. Shots that usually fall were not falling, and they still found a way to win. Be proud!

Why so negative? It always happens because some posters think Duke should win every game and win them all by 20+ and use 10 guys when doing it.

Matches
02-16-2014, 07:52 AM
I fully agree. Not a doghouse situation in my few. Quinn is just really struggling and not playing with any kind of verve or confidence. With that K is limiting his minutes and trying to coach him back to his normal self. To his credit, Quinn is staying engaged and being a great teammate on the sidelines. Often the first off the bench to congratulate teammates. K did start him yesterday as well.

I think he bounces back before all is said and done.

I think he'll get through it, but - and I say this not to put the kid down - I've seen enough of the Quinn Cook Cryface. I get that he is an emotional guy but he needs - REALLY needs - to rein it in.

In the first half last night Quinn had zero assists and three TOs. The last one was off a very lazy pass that ended up going the other way. That's simply not an acceptable performance from a starting PG. When he came in in the 2nd half he almost immediately put up a bad shot, got yanked, and threw a cup when he got back to the bench. Nate was in his face trying to settle him down.

We can't have that. It'd be one thing if he was an inexperienced freshman, but he's not. Quinn is the best ballhandler on the team and the best passer. He's the 3rd or 4th best pure shooter and a capable driver and finisher. But he's in a bad place right now and a huge portion of it is mental. It's time for him to get out of his own head and buck up a bit, IMO. We got by without him last night but we will need him before all is said and done.

bob blue devil
02-16-2014, 07:55 AM
it would be a mistake to over analyze this game - a win is a win and there were lots of fluky aspects that are unlikely to resurface. for instance, how often will our (arguably) best player be in foul trouble the entire game, or this duke team shoot 5-24 from 3 with decent shot selection, or we play a guy that loves playing duke like wells does? i'm not saying all the fluky stuff was in our favor (maryland's foul trouble was worse than ours), but it made the game something where both teams were simply not playing like themselves. i do think hood's foul trouble was a very big deal - he's a beast on both ends of the court.

Saratoga2
02-16-2014, 07:58 AM
He's not my favorite by any stretch. Duke lacks size. And we have a guy with size who makes a positive impact when he plays. To me that spells minutes. More than he's getting.

Was it a coincidence that Duke was doing better when he was in the game?

CLW
02-16-2014, 08:09 AM
I wanted to see what would happen when the shots didn't fall. They didn't last night and the team gutted out a W. The D was a little better but the Terps killed us on the glass rebounding roughly 1/2 of their missed shots giving them extra chances.

kAzE
02-16-2014, 08:17 AM
Was it a coincidence that Duke was doing better when he was in the game?

But who does he replace? Our best offensive player, Jabari, or our best defensive player, Amile? Plumlee is a valuable guy, and he does a few things very well, when he is in the game. He brings a lot of energy and enthusiasm, he's a factor on the offensive glass, and he is capable of providing some level of interior presence on defense. Nobody (at least not me) is saying he doesn't play well when he is in the game, but there's no denying that he has brick hands, which limits his rebounding ability (he had another easy defensive board bounce right off his hands in this one), as well as his ability to be a meaningful contributor on offense, not to mention that he's also just not a skilled offensive player.

Just because he does a few things very well doesn't make up for the fact that he just can't replace what our starting bigs do on both ends. You just have to play Parker and Jefferson 30+ minutes when it's a close game, they are 2 of the best 3 players on the team. That doesn't leave many minutes for a back up big. In this game, Parker played 39 minutes, and Jefferson 34. Who got all the rest of the minutes in the front court? Marshall Plumlee. I think Coach K has a pretty good handle on this. 10 minutes a game for Plumlee is totally fine by me. You guys are overlooking the fact that he's actually passed Hairston on the depth chart, and he's the first big off the bench, which is a pretty good sign in my opinion. If the game weren't so close, he probably would have played a few more minutes.

But the bottom line is, he's not as good as Jefferson or Parker, and you can't play all 3 of them at once.

Saratoga2
02-16-2014, 08:26 AM
I didn't notice any discussion of the lack of motion by our offense. I thought that Jabari had early success and players started standing around watching. Both Rasheed and Rodney tried to drive into the teeth of the defense with initial success for Rasheed and virtually none for Rodney, but again, others were not moving well. When Quinn took the ball up there was little threat of fast break and the east to west movement without penetration and dishing. He seemed slow and unfocused. Tyler did a better job but his ball handling is not super nor is his slashing ability. We just didn't seem to be running the motion offense and we had little movement by people off the ball. Andre did fake one shot, drove the middle and got fouled but so little we did was threatening other than Jabari and I felt he was often out of control but was bailed out with fouls.

The last offensive play we had was an indication of bad strategy in my opinion. We sat on the ball until deep in the clock and finally wound up turning the ball over leaving more than 20 seconds on the clock. We then played heroic defense and were lucky that the Maryland shot rolled out. Why instead didn't we put pressure on immediately, get a shot away and then have 10 seconds left to win the game even if we missed and Maryland hit? Did the strategy seem to be incorrect to anyone else?

hillsborodevil
02-16-2014, 08:28 AM
Fortunate to come out with a win. Duke tried hard to give the game away. Duke played stall ball up by 1 point, with something like a 10 second difference with the shot clock. They deserved the shot clock violation - embarrassing.

I agree with Billy Dat. TT made the game winner with the tip out under MD’s basket.

devilnfla
02-16-2014, 08:29 AM
I previously noted that before the last in-bounds play, Mitchell spent five seconds in the lane and walked twice, at the ten and eight second marks (both were of the bunny hop variety, as Chick Hearn used to say). I went back to the last 6.4 seconds, and it turns out that he took four steps before he took the shot that fortunately rolled out.

I know it's harder when you are watching the game live, but the refs should be able to spot four violations in just over ten seconds of action.

With the phantom charge call on Suliamon earlier, I thought Mitchell should have been called for an offensive foul on that last shot. He used his arm and elbow to create space against Hood.

duke96
02-16-2014, 08:56 AM
A win is a win.

The good stuff
- Amile making good plays both on the offensive end and the defensive end. His strip of Wells was the co-play of the game with Tyler's tip.

Could Jabari's monster drive and jam to take the lead with the game on the line perhaps also be considered a co-play of the game? Maybe I missed it, but haven't seen as much mention of that in this thread as I woulda thought. Seems to me we really take this kid for granted sometimes.

Faison1
02-16-2014, 09:12 AM
I hate seeing a founding member leave. But don't get all butthurt about it. They are chasing the bottom line.

I mainly wanted to reply with your line highlighted. (Very funny)

I wouldn't say I'm butthurt, but I'm still bummed this morning. I'll get over it pretty quickly, because, you know, it's Maryland. So screw those guys.

I lived in that State for a little while. I'm not sure how they manage their school finances, but if it's anything like the State finances, I can see why the school is broke.

bob blue devil
02-16-2014, 09:13 AM
But the bottom line is, (Plumlee's) not as good as Jefferson or Parker, and you can't play all 3 of them at once.

why not?

DukieInBrasil
02-16-2014, 09:26 AM
Jabari played a fantastic game, when attacking the basket. That step-back pull-up 3 (or long jumper) needs to be eliminated from his repertoire, it really diminishes his offensive efficiency and lets the defense off easy.
Massive game on the boards from Amile, it's nice to see him bringing down boards even when he's outweighed by roughly a thousand pounds.
Who knows what's up with Quinn? He was a ghost of himself in this game. What a mercurial player, sometimes he dominates his matchup, and the game, other times he brings almost no value to the table.
Why didn't MP3 get more run? In the few minutes he was on the court he made an obvious difference, contesting their inside presence in a way that nobody else on the team can. Parker's interior defense is still terrible, Hood was saddled with foul trouble pretty much all night, and Amile just can't contend with that many big bodies all night. I really thought that using him in defense-for-offense substitutions would have made a lot of sense. Plus, he got that follow shot for a score. Jabari's gonna need more rest than he got tonight over the coming week, and MP3 seems to be an obvious choice to give him some rest.
Overall, a pretty poor shooting night, especially from 3. Our offense made their defense look amazing, and they did close out well on the jump shooters, but we missed many, many good looks. Maryland played with great passion, and Dez Wells' second half performance was spectacular. Charles Mitchell and Jake Layman were both nearly unstoppable during stretches of the game. What i don't get is why Mitchell didn't get a T after he picked up his 4th foul, he was physically and verbally showing up the ref for giving him the foul, and right in front of the ref. He got lucky there.
Overall, i feel like Duke was lucky to win that game, MD brought more fight than the Blue Devils. Duke shot poorly and the defense was far from stellar. We got a couple of bounces to go our way, and in the end that was enough. It's gonna be a tough week coming up.

mgtr
02-16-2014, 09:27 AM
why not?

Exactly. Move Hood to the 2, and use whoever is playing PG the best that night.

CDu
02-16-2014, 09:30 AM
I don't know the rules... but if Amile *did* get the ball out to the perimeter with no stop in play, what really would have happened? Would play have continued with no ability to review the shot clock violation? Is it like football that once the ball is snapped, the previous play is "over"?:confused: At least they gave Duke the timeout back... I was screaming for that:cool:

They can absolutely stop play to check for a shot-clock violation. Whether or not they would have is unknown.

flyingdutchdevil
02-16-2014, 09:37 AM
1) Thank God we won. Can you imagine Maryland leaving the ACC knowing that they won their last game against Duke? Thank God I don't have to think about that...

2) Our team just couldn't find the bottom of the net. You have games like this, and we were fortunate to come out the winner. And it's not like we took bad shots (okay, we took a few bad shots). A lot of easy shots, especially wide open 3s, just didn't go in like they usually do.

3) Speaking of bad shots, can Jabari please stop taking step back 3 pointers? When was the last time one went in? November?

4) I loved the energy of Amile, Thornton, and Jabari in the game. Our lack of settling and getting in the face of the opponents won it for us.

5) Rasheed may not be the PG of the future, but I thought he played well offensively and defensively. We missed Quinn, but I disagree with those who say our offense was poor because Quinn wasn't there. Our offense was poor because we couldn't make easy shots, especially 3pt shots.

6) I have a feeling Dez Wells lives to play well against Duke. He was unstoppable. If he didn't have foul trouble in the first half, I think Maryland wins pretty handily. That guy is a monster against Duke.

7) Win by 30, win by 2, lose by 2, doesn't matter. DBR will always find a way to blame refs for something!

camion
02-16-2014, 09:38 AM
why not?

Okay I'll give it a shot.

Neither MP3 or Amile is an outside threat so having them both in the game clogs the middle giving Jabari less space to operate on the interior and less room for the guards to drive. Most of our offensively skilled players are guards. We need to use them.

We probably gain in interior defense and rebounding with both in the game, but lose on perimeter defense and offensive flow. We might actually lose offensive rebounding with the big lineup since opposing bigs could sag near the basket more.

devilnfla
02-16-2014, 09:39 AM
Exactly. Move Hood to the 2, and use whoever is playing PG the best that night.

Wouldn't mind seeing (for at least a few minutes each half) a line up of:

Suilamon
Hood
Parker
Jefferson
Plumlee

This would allow for everyone to play at their natural position.

moonpie23
02-16-2014, 10:06 AM
i can't see how anyone can complain about winning an incredibly tight game where the opponent's star had a cape on…….



wondering what's up with dre, tho….

bedeviled
02-16-2014, 10:11 AM
They can absolutely stop play to check for a shot-clock violationCorrect. And, since you guys made me curious, here's some info (https://www.arbitersports.com/Groups/104883/Library/files/Interpretations_Clarifications_Arbiter_111313.pdf) about how to handle any subsequent play that transpires after the violation (bold highlight is mine):

A rule change this year permits officials to use instant replay in the last two minutes of the second period and the last two minutes of
each overtime period to determine whether a shot clock violation has occurred.

There are two ways in which this violation may occur. First, if the shooter fails to release the try or goal prior to the expiration of time on the shot clock and second, if the try is released timely but fails to contact the rim.

[SNIP]
3. When the shot clock issue is whether or not the try contacted the rim, the officials should stop the game immediately and use the monitor to determine if there was a timing mistake for failing to properly start, stop, set or reset the shot clock. This can only be determined by seeing if the shot hit the rim. If the shot hit the rim, award the ball to Team A at the point of interruption. If the shot did not hit the rim, a violation has occurred. Award the ball to Team B out of bounds at the spot nearest to where the violation occurred and put the time elapsed back on the game clock to the time of the violation. Any activity after the mistake and until it has been rectified shall be cancelled, excluding a flagrant 1 or 2 personal foul or any technical foul.

DukieInBrasil
02-16-2014, 10:18 AM
Okay I'll give it a shot.

Neither MP3 or Amile is an outside threat so having them both in the game clogs the middle giving Jabari less space to operate on the interior and less room for the guards to drive. Most of our offensively skilled players are guards. We need to use them.

We probably gain in interior defense and rebounding with both in the game, but lose on perimeter defense and offensive flow. We might actually lose offensive rebounding with the big lineup since opposing bigs could sag near the basket more.

if both Amile and MP3 are in the game, i highly doubt Jabari would be too.

bob blue devil
02-16-2014, 10:38 AM
Okay I'll give it a shot.

Neither MP3 or Amile is an outside threat so having them both in the game clogs the middle giving Jabari less space to operate on the interior and less room for the guards to drive. Most of our offensively skilled players are guards. We need to use them.

We probably gain in interior defense and rebounding with both in the game, but lose on perimeter defense and offensive flow. We might actually lose offensive rebounding with the big lineup since opposing bigs could sag near the basket more.

i agree with most of your points as a risk to the lineup. it would be much more obvious if amile had an outside shot ala ryan kelly (although how could we ask more from amile!). the downside is more on offense, but we would still have hood, parker and sulaimon (i'd take him over cook) who all can create their own shot and shoot from long range. on defense (where the current duke team struggles more) i think the bigger line-up is a slam dunk - i think sulaimon and hood would have their way with opposing guards - i don't see how we'd lose on perimeter defense, unless jabari really couldn't handle an opposing 3.

at any rate, we could have a decent debate as to whether this would or would not be an optimal 5 on the floor, but the idea that they couldn't be on the floor at the same time doesn't make sense to me.

Atlanta Duke
02-16-2014, 10:39 AM
I just want to say that I have talked a great deal of smack to my Maryland leaning friends about their departure to the BIG whatever. I have to be honest however in saying that I can't blame them for leaving.

I agree it's a business. But rather than just say that, Randy Edsall has to come out and claim Maryland has no football rivals in the ACC but now will get to develop a great rivalry with Penn State (Penn State and its fans do not care if Maryland lives or dies) while Gary Williams says Maryland no longer had any ACC basketball rivalries since those meanies at Duke and North Carolina would not treat the Terps as a rival but now has a chance to go to a basketball conference with 5 top 20 teams. Maryland could have left by saying they have great ACC memories but this was just too good a financial incentive to leave - of course that is not how Maryland rolls

Duke76
02-16-2014, 10:41 AM
andre didn't touch the ball much…there was a lot of dribbling by the guys not much passing in and out swing the ball effectively..against the zone you have to pass the ball effectively to get open shots from the wing and I didn't thin we did much of that…we need to work on our offense against a 1-3-1.

IMO, the guys simple weren't looking for Andre or the plays weren't designed if there were any yesterday at all…for Andre. game offensively reminded me of the the old stagnant pro game of isolation and one on one

NSDukeFan
02-16-2014, 11:02 AM
Wouldn't mind seeing (for at least a few minutes each half) a line up of:

Suilamon
Hood
Parker
Jefferson
Plumlee

This would allow for everyone to play at their potential NBA, but not college position.

Fixed it for you, though I think it would be fun to see a big lineup every once in awhile. The problem is stopping quick players driving to the basket has been the team's (and probably most teams') biggest challenge. The big lineup, while improving the team's ability to contest shots inside, put big bodies on opponents' big bodies and rebound, likely makes the team's biggest defensive weakness bigger. camion made the nice post above why the big lineup may not be the best offensively.

Kedsy
02-16-2014, 11:14 AM
I also think we should have run some set plays to get Andre open. I think he would have hit a couple more and that would have open up the middle a little more. GoDuke!

To my eyes, Andre didn't look like himself last night. He didn't seem to have the absolute confidence in his shooting that he usually does, even from the free throw line. When he hit that three at the end of the first half, his face lit up and I hoped he'd use it as a springboard to a big second half. But then I don't think he took a shot in the second half. Hopefully he snaps out of it against Georgia Tech.



But the bottom line is, he's not as good as Jefferson or Parker, and you can't play all 3 of them at once.

I agree. Marshall looked great last night, but I don't think he should play big minutes this season. Let's let the kid run his own race.


why not?

Because that lineup wouldn't be as good as lineups featuring our many outstanding wing players. It's not just that Marshall isn't as good as Amile and Jabari. I'm not putting Marshall down when I say he's not as good as Rodney, Rasheed, Quinn, Andre, or Tyler, either. He's the 8th man in the rotation, and I think that's where he should be. Personally, I would have liked to see him play close to the 10 minutes he's been averaging lately, but not much more than that.

I think camion's post above was pretty spot on, too.

Also, people always say that SF is Jabari's "natural position," and maybe it will be, someday in the NBA, but I don't think it is right now. I'm not convinced he can guard a lot of the college SFs out there.

Finally, ironically, it's possible a lineup featuring Marshall, Amile, and Jabari would rebound worse than our current lineup on the defensive end. Marshall hasn't shown himself yet to be even an adequate defensive rebounder, and moving Jabari away from the basket would limit his defensive rebounding opportunities.


Amile just can't contend with that many big bodies all night.

I don't know why you say this. He clearly did contend with that many big bodies all night and not only was the leading rebounder in the game (for either team), but was still making great defensive plays until the final second. To me, he contended just fine.

LBF
02-16-2014, 11:23 AM
Exactly. Move Hood to the 2, and use whoever is playing PG the best that night.


Yea, let's just abandon the three now. This game has shown us all we can't shoot and so we should just pack it in and get physical.

Papa John
02-16-2014, 11:28 AM
The Big 10 offered them a better financial situation than the ACC could offer. Their super booster agreed and helped steer their administration toward leaving. It was fitting that the crazies were chanting ACC...ACC...ACC... as the clock expired tonight. But is there any doubt in anyone's mind that if future circumstances should see the ACC crumbling and other conferences come calling, and let's say for example the almighty SEC came calling to Duke, UNC, GaTech, CLemson, FSU, VaTech, or any combination including Duke, you might just hear three different letters echoing through Cameron? I certainly hope not, and I hate seeing a founding member leave. But don't get all butthurt about it. They are chasing the bottom line. Just like Miami and VaTech and BC and Syracuse, and Pitt. Just like Mizzou and A&M. Just like Duke and/or UNC might do if they are ever given an offer they can't refuse.

The problem is, I'm not sure you could characterize this as a smart business move for MD. First, they get stuck with a $50 million exit fee when their athletic program is already drowning in so much debt that they have to cut 7 programs. And the debt stems primarily from the fact that they shelled out millions to buy out the contract of a relatively successful head football coach, millions more to acquire a fairly middling D1 head football coach as his replacement, millions more to acquire a fairly middling head basketball coach, and many millions more to update their football facilities to attempt to compete against the big boys (which they are absolutely failing to do). Second, they're entering a conference that has no natural rivalries for them aside from Penn State, and with a geographic footprint that will force MD to shell out more money each year to transport their teams from venue to venue. Third, the conference they are entering lies in a region of the country in demographic decline. That's a big reason why the B1G wanted to expand in the DC and NY markets--their numbers crunchers recognize that the demographics are not working in their favor, and they needed to make additions that triaged the bleeding... Problem is, MD and Rutgers aren't going to bring much benefit to the conference in the long run, because they don't command that great of an audience in their respective markets. Though the move benefits the B1G in the short run, I don't think it will make much of a difference in the long run. So MD, bleeding dollars due to a series of poor business decisions, chose to leave a conference that they helped to found, with a long tradition of great matchups against nearby schools, within their natural geographical footprint, in a region that is among the fastest growing in the US (the demographics are working in favor of the ACC) to move to a conference in which they have no history, outside of their geographic footprint, in a region that is in demographic decline... And they get to pay $50 million to do so...

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-16-2014, 11:31 AM
7) Win by 30, win by 2, lose by 2, doesn't matter. DBR will always find a way to complain about lineups and playing time!
Fixed that last one for you.

We have the winningest armchair coaches in the country. It's uncanny. Must be the 20-20 hindsight they possess.

COYS
02-16-2014, 11:34 AM
I don't know why you say this. He clearly did contend with that many big bodies all night and not only was the leading rebounder in the game (for either team), but was still making great defensive plays until the final second. To me, he contended just fine.

I think people assume Amile can't bang with big bodies because that has been one of espn's primary talking points about Duke all season as well as many Duke fans' greatest concern leading up to this season (remember when many of us thought a guy like Tarik Black would be the key to us having enough rebounding this year?). In reality, Amile has been one of the best rebounders in the ACC and is a far superior post defender than the much bigger Jabari. Most of Maryland's post up points came against Jabari 1- on - 1, not Amile. Amile hedges better than any of our other forwards and he's also quick enough to bother guards in the event of a switch on a ball screen. He even has shown an ability to execute some crafty post moves. Amile has really developed nicely. Defense is a concern for the team, but Amile has perhaps improved more than any individual player on the team on that end of the court. I would argue that he might be our number one defensive player.

Also, to give some credit to ESPN, Doris Burke did make a point to say that Amile made a number of winning plays for Duke last night. So it's not like no one notices him. However, for whatever reason no one in the sports media world seems to realize he's not just a good rebounder for his size, he's an elite rebounder, period.

devildeac
02-16-2014, 11:40 AM
The problem is, I'm not sure you could characterize this as a smart business move for MD. First, they get stuck with a $50 million exit fee when their athletic program is already drowning in so much debt that they have to cut 7 programs. And the debt stems primarily from the fact that they shelled out millions to buy out the contract of a relatively successful head football coach, millions more to acquire a fairly middling D1 head football coach as his replacement, millions more to acquire a fairly middling head basketball coach, and many millions more to update their football facilities to attempt to compete against the big boys (which they are absolutely failing to do). Second, they're entering a conference that has no natural rivalries for them aside from Penn State, and with a geographic footprint that will force MD to shell out more money each year to transport their teams from venue to venue. Third, the conference they are entering lies in a region of the country in demographic decline. That's a big reason why the B1G wanted to expand in the DC and NY markets--their numbers crunchers recognize that the demographics are not working in their favor, and they needed to make additions that triaged the bleeding... Problem is, MD and Rutgers aren't going to bring much benefit to the conference in the long run, because they don't command that great of an audience in their respective markets. Though the move benefits the B1G in the short run, I don't think it will make much of a difference in the long run. So MD, bleeding dollars due to a series of poor business decisions, chose to leave a conference that they helped to found, with a long tradition of great matchups against nearby schools, within their natural geographical footprint, in a region that is among the fastest growing in the US (the demographics are working in favor of the ACC) to move to a conference in which they have no history, outside of their geographic footprint, in a region that is in demographic decline... And they get to pay $50 million to do so...

(Not picking on you whatsoever) As others have pointed out here before in this and other threads, that is some rivalry:rolleyes:;):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland%E2%80%93Penn_State_football_rivalry

OldPhiKap
02-16-2014, 11:44 AM
I think people assume Amile can't bang with big bodies because that has been one of espn's primary talking points about Duke all season as well as many Duke fans' greatest concern leading up to this season (remember when many of us thought a guy like Tarik Black would be the key to us having enough rebounding this year?). In reality, Amile has been one of the best rebounders in the ACC and is a far superior post defender than the much bigger Jabari. Most of Maryland's post up points came against Jabari 1- on - 1, not Amile. Amile hedges better than any of our other forwards and he's also quick enough to bother guards in the event of a switch on a ball screen. He even has shown an ability to execute some crafty post moves. Amile has really developed nicely. Defense is a concern for the team, but Amile has perhaps improved more than any individual player on the team on that end of the court. I would argue that he might be our number one defensive player.

Also, to give some credit to ESPN, Doris Burke did make a point to say that Amile made a number of winning plays for Duke last night. So it's not like no one notices him. However, for whatever reason no one in the sports media world seems to realize he's not just a good rebounder for his size, he's an elite rebounder, period.

Excellent post. Amile is consistently filling his role -- a every important one -- at a very high level. I like that several times last night, he looked to pass out but took it strong and scored when the pass was not there. I think we even ran a few plays for him.

He is one tough kid.

OldPhiKap
02-16-2014, 11:48 AM
(Not picking on you whatsoever) As others have pointed out here before in this and other threads, that is some rivalry:rolleyes:;):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryland%E2%80%93Penn_State_football_rivalry

I wonder who cancelled the series?

That's like saying Clemson and UNC are basketball rivals.

devilnfla
02-16-2014, 11:54 AM
Fixed it for you, though I think it would be fun to see a big lineup every once in awhile. The problem is stopping quick players driving to the basket has been the team's (and probably most teams') biggest challenge. The big lineup, while improving the team's ability to contest shots inside, put big bodies on opponents' big bodies and rebound, likely makes the team's biggest defensive weakness bigger. camion made the nice post above why the big lineup may not be the best offensively.

Agreed.....that's why I said just a few minutes each half.

Atlanta Duke
02-16-2014, 12:01 PM
I wonder who cancelled the series?

That's like saying Clemson and UNC are basketball rivals.

Irony alert - the series was cancelled when Penn State went to the Big Ten Or So.

That which the Big Ten had drawn asunder can now be reunited

bob blue devil
02-16-2014, 12:09 PM
Kedsy, as always, you are policing the board with some insightful perspective. here are some humble responses to your comments.



Because that lineup wouldn't be as good as lineups featuring our many outstanding wing players. It's not just that Marshall isn't as good as Amile and Jabari. I'm not putting Marshall down when I say he's not as good as Rodney, Rasheed, Quinn, Andre, or Tyler, either. He's the 8th man in the rotation, and I think that's where he should be.


That's certainly a reasonable opinion. I do disagree. Basketball is more than a sum of the parts - it's also about match-ups and roles. To simply look at it as a question of Marshall vs. Quinn, Andre or Tyler (let's focus the conversation on who this is really about) has value, but is a bit naive if you do not look at the bigger picture. If we agreed that Duke's best five individuals were Tyler, Andre, Quinn, Rasheed and Rodney, should that be a regular line-up we play? I'm pretty confident you provided this view to focus the conversation, not because you don't understand the match-ups/roles stuff, but in doing so, may have led the conversation astray.



Also, people always say that SF is Jabari's "natural position," and maybe it will be, someday in the NBA, but I don't think it is right now. I'm not convinced he can guard a lot of the college SFs out there.


i agree, people focus too much on nba positions in college - it is a very different game (another reason to leave early, but i digress). I think you've fallen into the trap of supposing someone has to play the same position on offense and defense. With Rasheed, Rodney and Amile all being extremely versatile defenders, certainly there is someone we could find for Jabari to guard.



Finally, ironically, it's possible a lineup featuring Marshall, Amile, and Jabari would rebound worse than our current lineup on the defensive end. Marshall hasn't shown himself yet to be even an adequate defensive rebounder, and moving Jabari away from the basket would limit his defensive rebounding opportunities.


Did you just say substituting Marshall Plumlee for Quinn or Tyler would make us a worse rebounding team? Because Jabari would be playing the 3 not 4? Okay, okay, you said it's possible, that's fair, but a stretch. As noted above, Jabari might not wind-up playing 3 on defense.

greybeard
02-16-2014, 12:20 PM
Did anyone but me notice that Plumlee on two possessions set several screens, boom-boom, in a single set. Remind you of anyone?

Don't agree that Plumlee, Jefferson Parker, creates a problem with clogging the middle. What it does do, however, is take away one three-shooter which K is unlikely to do. If this multiple screen deal works anywhere near as it did with Zoubek, that is a big "if", then giving Parker more rest becomes much more an option, and gives the offense and defense whole other, very effective looks. It could be a key to stretching Duke's potential, as per Wojo's statement of what Plumlee represented.

El_Diablo
02-16-2014, 12:42 PM
The whole "MP3 shouldn't play because he's not as good as Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Sulaimon and Cook" argument goes out the window when Hood is ALREADY ON THE BENCH in foul trouble and Cook is also sitting because he is playing poorly overall. I am not too bent out of shape over his PT, as I am not an advocate of playing MP3 more than 10 minutes on a regular basis, but (given the opponent's front line) last night was a game in which he could have and probably should have gotten more than six minutes, so it is completely reasonable for people to question his relative lack of PT when he was actually doing good things during those six minutes. But maybe the knee injury is playing a role...he was wearing a brace of some sort, so maybe we were limiting him on purpose or maybe he said it was bothering him a little when he went back to the bench.

He will certainly get more opportunities this week, with three more games by Saturday. I don't see him playing all that much against Syracuse, but hopefully we have lots of garbage time against GT, and we will probably need some quality time from him against UNC. If he keeps playing like he did against Maryland, and if the team keeps playing well with him in the game (we were +5 in his six minutes...by far the best rate on the team, and one of only three players with a positive +/-), then his minutes will increase.

Troublemaker
02-16-2014, 12:56 PM
www.BluePlanetShots.com put up this:

http://www.blueplanetshots.com/2013-14/Players/2013-14-GIFs/i-MdLx4kb/0/X2/MD-%20TY%20TIP-X2.gif

Troublemaker
02-16-2014, 12:59 PM
BTW, Rodney really needs to put a butt into Mitchell after he took that shot.

Rodney's been missing boxouts all season long. I think it's improved as the season's progressed, but it still happens way too much. If it happens against UNC, we'll be seeing monstrous Tokoto tip dunks.

bob blue devil
02-16-2014, 01:12 PM
www.BluePlanetShots.com put up this:


wow, great clip. well done tyler, and nice to see jabari creating some space too.

CDu
02-16-2014, 01:47 PM
Also, people always say that SF is Jabari's "natural position," and maybe it will be, someday in the NBA, but I don't think it is right now. I'm not convinced he can guard a lot of the college SFs out there.

I totally agree on this. For some reason, folks frequently do this (conceptually moving a player down a position to their "natural" position). Another recent example: people were constantly saying that Mason's natural position was PF, when he was so clearly a college C (heck, he's even playing quite a bit of NBA C).

Parker is the epitome of a college PF. He's great as a post player. He can stretch the defense. He can defend in the paint (sometimes). He can rebound very well. His natural college position is PF.

On an unrelated note, I'm beginning to wonder (or more accurately, have been wondering for a while) if Hood's natural college position is really closer to SG than it is PF. He just doesn't seem at all comfortable defending inside. He doesn't box out at all well and also isn't a great rebounder. So one of the reasons I'm pleased with Plumlee seeing more time is that it means less time with Hood playing a position at which he really isn't strong.


Finally, ironically, it's possible a lineup featuring Marshall, Amile, and Jabari would rebound worse than our current lineup on the defensive end. Marshall hasn't shown himself yet to be even an adequate defensive rebounder, and moving Jabari away from the basket would limit his defensive rebounding opportunities.

I think you're falling prey to relying too much on stats and not seeing the bigger picture. I think there's virtually no chance that replacing Cook or Thornton with Plumlee would make us a worse rebounding team. And citing individual rebound percentages isn't the way to determine whether a group would be a better (or worse) rebounding team.

It is true that Plumlee does not rebound well defensively. But he is a FANTASTIC box-out guy. That much was evidenced last night when his box-outs drew two over-the-back fouls. He's so devoted to his box-out that he doesn't wind up going after it on the glass. But his box-outs make it easier for teammates to get boards. It would not shock me at all if our team rebounding percentage is better with him on the floor than without him. And having him box out the opponent's biggest guy and/or best rebounder would allow Jefferson and Parker (guys who aren't great at boxing out but are terrific at going after the ball) to do what they do best: ballhawk on the glass.

There are plenty of other reasons why a lineup with Plumlee, Jefferson, and Parker on the floor might not work. But I feel quite certain that rebounding is not one of them.

That being said, I would be interested in seeing a lineup which could legitimately push Hood to SG. It's too bad that Ojeleye isn't quite up to the speed of the D-1 game, because I think a lineup of Jefferson/Plumlee, Parker, Ojeleye, Hood, and Sulaimon/Cook could really allow Hood to flourish. Clearly, though, that lineup isn't going to see much time, because Ojeleye just doesn't seem to quite be ready for prime time.

azzefkram
02-16-2014, 01:50 PM
I agree with most of your points, but actually I thought our board work was pretty good. Amile and Jabari were both outstanding on the boards tonight.

We did give up 17 offensive boards but you are right Amile and Jabari (with a nod to Marshall) were outstanding. No complaints from the 4 and 5 spot. I think most would be ecstatic with 23 boards from the 4 and 5. The rest of the lineup needed to step up with Rodney's foul trouble.


Could Jabari's monster drive and jam to take the lead with the game on the line perhaps also be considered a co-play of the game? Maybe I missed it, but haven't seen as much mention of that in this thread as I woulda thought. Seems to me we really take this kid for granted sometimes.

That was awesome and should probably be considered a co-co-play.


Rasheed may not be the PG of the future, but I thought he played well offensively and defensively. We missed Quinn, but I disagree with those who say our offense was poor because Quinn wasn't there. Our offense was poor because we couldn't make easy shots, especially 3pt shots.

We did miss some open shots and maybe more than usual but the ball movement was pretty poor in the second half. We only had 6 assists on 18 makes. I am not positive but I think our only assists in the second half came on broken plays. I love what Sheed brings to the game but I think the offense takes a step back when he is running the half court sets. I often wonder why we don't run more when he is in there since I think he would be awesome in the open court.


To my eyes, Andre didn't look like himself last night. He didn't seem to have the absolute confidence in his shooting that he usually does, even from the free throw line. When he hit that three at the end of the first half, his face lit up and I hoped he'd use it as a springboard to a big second half. But then I don't think he took a shot in the second half. Hopefully he snaps out of it against Georgia Tech.

I thought the same thing but I loved the fact that when he shot wasn't falling he put the ball on the deck and drove it. We've seen a lot more of that from Dre this season. It's a welcome addition in my opinion.



Because that lineup wouldn't be as good as lineups featuring our many outstanding wing players. It's not just that Marshall isn't as good as Amile and Jabari. I'm not putting Marshall down when I say he's not as good as Rodney, Rasheed, Quinn, Andre, or Tyler, either. He's the 8th man in the rotation, and I think that's where he should be. Personally, I would have liked to see him play close to the 10 minutes he's been averaging lately, but not much more than that.

In just about every other game I'd agree with you. Last night was an off night for our wing players. Quinn, Dre and Rodney were not bringing what they usually do. Marshall, Amile, Jabari, Tyler and Sheed is basically a "break glass in case of emergency" lineup and last night might have been a situation where it could have been beneficial.

kAzE
02-16-2014, 01:51 PM
My issue with the Plumlee/Parker/Jefferson + 2 guards lineups has less to do with shooting and rebounding than ball handling. None of those 3 guys are natural ball handlers who are capable of initiating a play. Parker has nice handles for his size, but compared to a guard, he's still not that great. Hood is actually not a great ball handler either, so the proposed lineup with him at the 2 is really relying heavily on 1 guy to beat ball pressure. Compound that with the fact that neither Plumlee nor Jefferson can hit a jumper, and you're looking at an extremely limited offensive lineup. Also, due to our limited front court depth, you run the risk of tiring out or fouling out our entire front court. Come on guys, Coach K knows what he's doing . . .

LBF
02-16-2014, 02:14 PM
None of those 3 guys are natural ball handlers who are capable of initiating a play. Parker has nice handles for his size, but compared to a guard, he's still not that great.

Really? I think Parker handles the ball very well as a third ball handling option.

FerryFor50
02-16-2014, 02:23 PM
Really? I think Parker handles the ball very well as a third ball handling option.

Plus, look at a team like Syracuse.

Ennis, and maybe Fair, are the only natural ball handlers. Cooney's not that great a distributor.

Same with teams like Kansas, Arizona, etc. Very few teams have 3 distributors on the floor at a given time.

Des Esseintes
02-16-2014, 02:26 PM
On an unrelated note, I'm beginning to wonder (or more accurately, have been wondering for a while) if Hood's natural college position is really closer to SG than it is PF. He just doesn't seem at all comfortable defending inside. He doesn't box out at all well and also isn't a great rebounder. So one of the reasons I'm pleased with Plumlee seeing more time is that it means less time with Hood playing a position at which he really isn't strong.
This is the classic small ball debate, no? You're 100% correct about Rodney's shortcomings on interior D and rebounding. But do we come out ahead given the mismatch into which the opposing PF is forced on the other end? I'll say straight out that I don't know the answer to this question. I do think there is at least the possibility that the tradeoff works generally in Duke's favor. The equation, probably only against certain teams would be: defensive disadvantage + massive offensive advantage (Hood at PF) > moderate advantage on both ends (Hood at SG). We fans probably lack the access to data needed to satisfactorily settle the issue.

bob blue devil
02-16-2014, 02:28 PM
r.e. playing marshall, amile and jabari at the same time

the analogy could be made to zoubek, lance and kyle... no analogy is perfect, but neither zoubek nor lance were real scoring threats.

Furniture
02-16-2014, 02:35 PM
- I've seen enough of the Quinn Cook Cryface. I get that he is an emotional guy but he needs - REALLY needs - to rein it in.


I'm not the greatest fan of Quinn personally but I really don't see what the deal is that he pulls a face if he mess's up. So what? Is there any proof that it really affects his game. In fact several of the rest of the team do it a bit too. Nobody picks on them.

Des Esseintes
02-16-2014, 02:37 PM
r.e. playing marshall, amile and jabari at the same time

the analogy could be made to zoubek, lance and kyle... no analogy is perfect, but neither zoubek nor lance were real scoring threats.

1. That was an overwhelming defensive lineup. A '14 giant lineup is not going to prevent points anywhere near that level. It's not even clear a '14 giant lineup is defensively superior to our main lineups given the perimeter cover speed we lose. So we take a step back on offense for a questionable defensive gain. That was not the case in '10.
2. That was a lineup using our best five players from '10. Marshall is not one of our five best players this year. Seems like a bad use of personnel resources, what with our terrific depth on the wing.

vick
02-16-2014, 02:45 PM
1. That was an overwhelming defensive lineup. A '14 giant lineup is not going to prevent points anywhere near that level. It's not even clear a '14 giant lineup is defensively superior to our main lineups given the perimeter cover speed we lose. So we take a step back on offense for a questionable defensive gain. That was not the case in '10.
2. That was a lineup using our best five players from '10. Marshall is not one of our five best players this year. Seems like a bad use of personnel resources, what with our terrific depth on the wing.

Precisely. Putting players on the floor based on "natural" positions is the classic Roy mistake. If a lineup featuring Plumlee-Jefferson-Parker-Hood-X plays anything more than situational/gimmicky spots, you're putting Cook/Sulaimon/Dawkins/Thornton on the bench for large stretches of time. Given that they are by any rational standard much better at the game of basketball than Plumlee, you'd have to believe there's a huge advantage to moving Jefferson, Parker, and Hood down a spot, which I think is dubious, especially in the case of Parker and Jefferson (on offense).

bob blue devil
02-16-2014, 05:08 PM
r.e. playing marshall, amile and jabari at the same time

the analogy could be made to zoubek, lance and kyle... no analogy is perfect, but neither zoubek nor lance were real scoring threats.



1. That was an overwhelming defensive lineup. A '14 giant lineup is not going to prevent points anywhere near that level. It's not even clear a '14 giant lineup is defensively superior to our main lineups given the perimeter cover speed we lose. So we take a step back on offense for a questionable defensive gain. That was not the case in '10.
2. That was a lineup using our best five players from '10. Marshall is not one of our five best players this year. Seems like a bad use of personnel resources, what with our terrific depth on the wing.

i made the analogy to counter the criticism that the big line-up wouldn't be able to play offense because it had two non-shooters on the floor (2010, two-non shooters, did very well offensively - #1 in the country). i agree that no machinations of the 2014 line-up will turn it into 2010 defensively. however, i don't think the perimeter cover argument you make is strongly supported by the 2010 example - rasheed and hood vs. scheyer and smith?

in my mind 2014 duke could take a big step up in defense by having more length and athleticism around the perimeter (vs. our current line-ups) with a questionable loss in offense (less shooters, but more rebounding).

others have made the same point of using our five "best" players. i agree that it's a useful concept, but one shouldn't get carried away with it. cook/thornton/dawkins vs. plumlee - making that type of switch changes the roles of everyone, you can't look at it in isolation.

as a little reminder, this whole debate was spawned by a comment that plumlee, jefferson, and parker couldn't be on the floor at the same time. i've never argued this is definitely our best line-up, but i think there is a chance it would be - certainly i don't see anything that conclusively demonstrates that the 3 couldn't be successful on the floor at the same time.

Ima Facultiwyfe
02-16-2014, 05:12 PM
www.BluePlanetShots.com put up this:

http://www.blueplanetshots.com/2013-14/Players/2013-14-GIFs/i-MdLx4kb/0/X2/MD-%20TY%20TIP-X2.gif

Tyler Thornton is a grown up!!!!!

Love, Ima

-jk
02-16-2014, 06:54 PM
In the first half, Maryland's really big guy, Mitchell, knocked Tyler to the floor, and hard. Shortly after, Tyler had his right wrist taped. After that, I think he went 1-2 FT and missed all his 3's.

Anyone know how he's doing? I like him as a 50% 3 shooter...

-jk

Channing
02-16-2014, 10:06 PM
I'm not the greatest fan of Quinn personally but I really don't see what the deal is that he pulls a face if he mess's up. So what? Is there any proof that it really affects his game. In fact several of the rest of the team do it a bit too. Nobody picks on them.

For starters, I imagine that it doesn't play well with teammates to see any of their teammates get so down on themselves after a bad play. However, more importantly, getting down like that after a bad play means that you aren't hustling your butt back on defense. For what should be done, Jabari had a bad play on offense, but busted tail back down court and made a great defensive play. When Quinn (or others) throw their hands up or pout, even for half a second, after a bad play, they let the opposition get out to a head start heading the other way.

Kedsy
02-16-2014, 10:57 PM
That's certainly a reasonable opinion. I do disagree. Basketball is more than a sum of the parts - it's also about match-ups and roles. To simply look at it as a question of Marshall vs. Quinn, Andre or Tyler (let's focus the conversation on who this is really about) has value, but is a bit naive if you do not look at the bigger picture. If we agreed that Duke's best five individuals were Tyler, Andre, Quinn, Rasheed and Rodney, should that be a regular line-up we play? I'm pretty confident you provided this view to focus the conversation, not because you don't understand the match-ups/roles stuff, but in doing so, may have led the conversation astray.

If Marshall was so important for our matchups, he'd already be starting and playing big minutes. But he's been relegated right now (rightly in my opinion) to be the third big, subbing in for Amile or Jabari. If you talk about playing all three of Amile, Jabari, and Marshall together, you are absolutely suggesting that Marshall take minutes from Tyler, Andre, Quinn, Rasheed, or Rodney. Because those are the players taking those minutes now. So I provided this view because at this moment in time I'd rather see Tyler, Andre, Quinn, Rasheed or Rodney play those minutes than Marshall.

Put another way, you talk about roles, but the big lineup proposed here would be expanding Marshall's role in a big way, and I think for this year's team his best role is his current one as a backup big.


i agree, people focus too much on nba positions in college - it is a very different game (another reason to leave early, but i digress). I think you've fallen into the trap of supposing someone has to play the same position on offense and defense. With Rasheed, Rodney and Amile all being extremely versatile defenders, certainly there is someone we could find for Jabari to guard.

Most college teams play a PG and two quick wing players. Which means one of Jabari, Amile, or Marshall would need to guard a quick wing player. Maryland, for example, spent a lot of time with Allen, Faust, and Wells on the floor. If not Jabari guarding one of them, do you think Amile could adequately defend Faust or Wells for any length of time? A possession here or there on a switch, sure, but for most of the game?


Did you just say substituting Marshall Plumlee for Quinn or Tyler would make us a worse rebounding team? Because Jabari would be playing the 3 not 4? Okay, okay, you said it's possible, that's fair, but a stretch. As noted above, Jabari might not wind-up playing 3 on defense.

Obviously I don't know for sure, but just because you're tall doesn't mean you're a good rebounder. For the season, Marshall grabs 12.8% of available defensive rebounds. Rodney grabs 12.6%, Andre gets 10.4%, Rasheed 9.0%, Tyler 8.2%, and Quinn 8.0%. For now, I'll assume that Amile playing PF would continue his current percentage of 23.7%, although it's possible he wouldn't. But Jabari, who gathers 22.4% of defensive rebounds available to him at PF would certainly get fewer rebounds as a SF, because he'd generally be a lot further from the basket when shots go up. Probably a lot fewer. I can't say how many defensive rebounds would be available at each position, so I can't really finish the math, but despite it sounding counter-intuitive, unless Marshall suddenly became a significantly better defensive rebounder than he's shown so far in his career, there's a very good chance we'd rebound less on the defensive end with the big lineup than we do now.

As further proof that it might not be as big a stretch as you think, try this exercise: name the biggest, baddest, best rebounding Duke team you can think of during Coach K's time here. OK? Now, I can tell you with certainty (unless you said "2013-14") the team you named rebounded worse on the defensive end than our current Duke team (with Marshall playing as little as he's played). I'm certain because this year's Duke team is the best defensive rebounding team since they started keeping the offensive rebound stat in 1986-87. So of course I don't know for sure whether Marshall getting more minutes would make us better or worse at defensive rebounding, but based on the numbers there's a decent chance it would make us worse.


As noted above, Jabari might not wind-up playing 3 on defense.

If Jabari doesn't play the 3 on defense, then Amile would have to play it, right? With an even more deleterious effect on our defensive rebounding. Unless you want Marshall to guard the other team's SF, but I assume we can all agree that's not such a good idea?

Kedsy
02-16-2014, 11:11 PM
Did anyone but me notice that Plumlee on two possessions set several screens, boom-boom, in a single set. Remind you of anyone?

Yeah, most of the bigs who've played for Duke over the past 30 years. Including Amile Jefferson several times last night against Maryland.

I'm as big a Brian Zoubek fan as anybody, but there's no reason to make him out as some sort of Michelangelo, whose brilliant screening innovations the world has never seen before or since, is there? Lots of guys set good screens.


I think you're falling prey to relying too much on stats and not seeing the bigger picture. I think there's virtually no chance that replacing Cook or Thornton with Plumlee would make us a worse rebounding team. And citing individual rebound percentages isn't the way to determine whether a group would be a better (or worse) rebounding team.

You could be right. I do rely on the stats a great deal. But considering this team is already rebounding better on the defensive end than any other Duke team in Coach K's time, it's also hard for me to see that adding a poor defensive rebounder in the middle (who I agree does box out well) and pushing a really good defensive rebounder to the wing would make our defensive rebounding better. People assume it automatically because he's tall, but that doesn't make it true.

Furniture
02-16-2014, 11:54 PM
For starters, I imagine that it doesn't play well with teammates to see any of their teammates get so down on themselves after a bad play. However, more importantly, getting down like that after a bad play means that you aren't hustling your butt back on defense. For what should be done, Jabari had a bad play on offense, but busted tail back down court and made a great defensive play. When Quinn (or others) throw their hands up or pout, even for half a second, after a bad play, they let the opposition get out to a head start heading the other way.

Can you tell me a specific play where he did pull a face yesterday? I have rewatched 3/4 of the game so far and didn't see him pull a face once.
I think there is so much labeling on this forum of Quinn doing it that people automatically assume that when he makes a bad play he make the so called "face". Since the kid is only human then from time to time he will make a bad play.....if people want to see something they will....

El_Diablo
02-17-2014, 12:24 AM
Can you tell me a specific play where he did pull a face yesterday? I have rewatched 3/4 of the game so far and didn't see him pull a face once.
I think there is so much labeling on this forum of Quinn doing it that people automatically assume that when he makes a bad play he make the so called "face". Since the kid is only human then from time to time he will make a bad play.....if people want to see something they will....

Sure, I can give an example. In the first half, he made a bad pass from the top of the key, which was intercepted. Rather than immediately sprinting back on defense, he stood there and pouted while Maryland was starting the fast break.

Hope that helps.

Wildling
02-17-2014, 10:20 AM
Sure, I can give an example. In the first half, he made a bad pass from the top of the key, which was intercepted. Rather than immediately sprinting back on defense, he stood there and pouted while Maryland was starting the fast break.

Hope that helps.

I was going to say the same thing. That "poor me I made a mistake" look while he stands still, then trots back on defense happens far too often. And whoever he is guarding get's a step ahead of him leading the other way. I've seen it time, and time again.

It's getting old. I'm sure it drives Coach K nuts.

El_Diablo
02-17-2014, 10:22 AM
Here is that particular play:

3923

3924

Matches
02-17-2014, 10:29 AM
IIRC that play landed Quinn on the bench. When I made the original comment about the cryface, I was thinking of the sequence in the 2nd half where Nate James spent an extended time on the bench trying to calm him down.

It's a correctable problem. Jason Williams used to have the cryface when things didn't go his way. Nolan Smith had it occasionally. Even Bobby Hurley had it from time to time. They all grew out of it - it's a maturity issue. Our PG needs to play with composure, period. One can play with emotion without losing composure. Quinn's a junior - it's time for him to find that balance.

Kedsy
02-17-2014, 10:44 AM
Even Bobby Hurley had it from time to time.

Didn't Bobby Hurley do it so much they made a video clipping together lots of instances and made him watch it after his freshman year?

(That's what I heard at the time, though I have no idea if it's really true.)

greybeard
02-17-2014, 10:48 AM
Sure, I can give an example. In the first half, he made a bad pass from the top of the key, which was intercepted. Rather than immediately sprinting back on defense, he stood there and pouted while Maryland was starting the fast break.

Hope that helps.

Was his momentum going forward when the pas was made/intercepted such that the train had well left the station before beginning to stop the momentum of forward, just not the movement of it, and then reorganizing to go the other way such that any attempt to catch the play was pointless? I'm just asking. Cook is usually out front. Stuff like that happens rather frequently from that position.

Face, or not, the reality is that he might have been cooked and that Cook knew it.;)

Listen to Quants
02-17-2014, 10:49 AM
But who does he replace? Our best offensive player, Jabari, or our best defensive player, Amile? Plumlee is a valuable guy, and he does a few things very well, when he is in the game. He brings a lot of energy and enthusiasm, he's a factor on the offensive glass, and he is capable of providing some level of interior presence on defense. Nobody (at least not me) is saying he doesn't play well when he is in the game, but there's no denying that he has brick hands, which limits his rebounding ability (he had another easy defensive board bounce right off his hands in this one), as well as his ability to be a meaningful contributor on offense, not to mention that he's also just not a skilled offensive player.

Just because he does a few things very well doesn't make up for the fact that he just can't replace what our starting bigs do on both ends. You just have to play Parker and Jefferson 30+ minutes when it's a close game, they are 2 of the best 3 players on the team. That doesn't leave many minutes for a back up big. In this game, Parker played 39 minutes, and Jefferson 34. Who got all the rest of the minutes in the front court? Marshall Plumlee. I think Coach K has a pretty good handle on this. 10 minutes a game for Plumlee is totally fine by me. You guys are overlooking the fact that he's actually passed Hairston on the depth chart, and he's the first big off the bench, which is a pretty good sign in my opinion. If the game weren't so close, he probably would have played a few more minutes.

But the bottom line is, he's not as good as Jefferson or Parker, and you can't play all 3 of them at once.

Sounds sensible. Remember before the year began all the angst about whether Duke had a center?

The box score of the Duke center position (adding Jefferson and Plumlee.):
40 min, 9 pts (4/6 fg/fga), 15 rebounds (6 Offensive), 2 steals, 1 block, 0 turn-overs, 2 fouls. sweet.

Matches
02-17-2014, 10:51 AM
Didn't Bobby Hurley do it so much they made a video clipping together lots of instances and made him watch it after his freshman year?

(That's what I heard at the time, though I have no idea if it's really true.)

I've always heard the same thing. Could be an urban legend, but having watched the games - there was plenty of material from which to compile such a video.

Wildling
02-17-2014, 11:01 AM
Was his momentum going forward when the pas was made/intercepted such that the train had well left the station before beginning to stop the momentum of forward, just not the movement of it, and then reorganizing to go the other way such that any attempt to catch the play was pointless? I'm just asking. Cook is usually out front. Stuff like that happens rather frequently from that position.

Face, or not, the reality is that he might have been cooked and that Cook knew it.;)

No, Cook was too busy telling Jabari the pass was for him when Jabari wasn't expecting the pass in the first place. One of those plays where those two weren't on the same page.

greybeard
02-17-2014, 11:04 AM
Another possibility, added to the previous, in my view likely scenario, has to do with injury. Cook began his career with one arm tied behind him, I forget which knee it was, but the knee had to have been bad because it had failed to resolve from before his prep school days had ended. It took away from his play through this season. This season he was smashing.

What makes a play that you make in your sleep, a seemingly difficult kind of deadly pass that you "know" is money, turn into a steal that takes the ball the other way as it is being made, perhaps you need to ask Cook. Or maybe Paulus.

Cook is competing on an extraordinarily high level all year, and doing so with joy. Walk in his shoes. Might be more difficult than we imagine.

OldPhiKap
02-17-2014, 11:43 AM
Didn't Bobby Hurley do it so much they made a video clipping together lots of instances and made him watch it after his freshman year?

(That's what I heard at the time, though I have no idea if it's really true.)


I've always heard the same thing. Could be an urban legend, but having watched the games - there was plenty of material from which to compile such a video.


No, that is a true story and not urban legend. And it worked.

davekay1971
02-17-2014, 11:47 AM
Didn't Bobby Hurley do it so much they made a video clipping together lots of instances and made him watch it after his freshman year?

(That's what I heard at the time, though I have no idea if it's really true.)

Yes he did and yes it true. I can't recall where it was reported, but I distinctly remember Hurley himself talking about them doing that and the impact it made on him. I am pretty sure it was done in the offseason between his Freshman and Sophomore years and the change in his on-court demeanor was noticeable.

(edit: or what OPK just said...)

uh_no
02-17-2014, 11:53 AM
IIRC that play landed Quinn on the bench. When I made the original comment about the cryface, I was thinking of the sequence in the 2nd half where Nate James spent an extended time on the bench trying to calm him down.

It's a correctable problem. Jason Williams used to have the cryface when things didn't go his way. Nolan Smith had it occasionally. Even Bobby Hurley had it from time to time. They all grew out of it - it's a maturity issue. Our PG needs to play with composure, period. One can play with emotion without losing composure. Quinn's a junior - it's time for him to find that balance.

he's halfway through his junior season...when are we expecting him to grow out of it?

my biggest issue with quinn is that he DOESN'T seem to have grown out of these things, to have really fixed the big issues with his game.

Yeah he's a pretty good point guard, and yeah he will have big games now and then, but he still faces the same challenges he did two years ago

poor perimeter defense
getting flustered against the press
inability to run a slow down defense (or defense late in the clock in general)
ability to not let negative emotions affect his play

Those I think are all fair criticisms of Quinn's game, and they've all been there from day one, and as a fan, it's been very frustrating to watch the same things dog him year after year, especially since only one of them really correlates to ability. He's a good athlete and a good basketball player, but unless he takes some steps now and over the summer, I think he's going to leave duke being just that.

sagegrouse
02-17-2014, 12:24 PM
IIRC that play landed Quinn on the bench. When I made the original comment about the cryface, I was thinking of the sequence in the 2nd half where Nate James spent an extended time on the bench trying to calm him down.

It's a correctable problem. Jason Williams used to have the cryface when things didn't go his way. Nolan Smith had it occasionally. Even Bobby Hurley had it from time to time. They all grew out of it - it's a maturity issue. Our PG needs to play with composure, period. One can play with emotion without losing composure. Quinn's a junior - it's time for him to find that balance.


Didn't Bobby Hurley do it so much they made a video clipping together lots of instances and made him watch it after his freshman year?

(That's what I heard at the time, though I have no idea if it's really true.)

True story, although it was probably during or after his sophomore season. But there is a little more to it, I think. Bobby Hurley's normal facial expression looks like a pout. Consequently, when he displayed any emotion after a bad play, it appeared that he was throwing a temper tantrum. The video was used to help him understand how he appeared.

The other problem is that, to the great pimply faced, unwashed mass of basketball fans, Bobby Hurley was the object of an intense physical jealousy. Why him? Why not me??? He looked physically like an intramural player, but there he was in a starring role on college basketball's biggest stage.

Ferry and JJ, who got a lot of riding by opposing fans, had obvious gifts. Bobby's talents were more hidden, like having the quickest hands on the planet, seeing the court in at least three dimensions and having nerves of steel.

roywhite
02-17-2014, 12:40 PM
he's halfway through his junior season...when are we expecting him to grow out of it?

my biggest issue with quinn is that he DOESN'T seem to have grown out of these things, to have really fixed the big issues with his game.

Yeah he's a pretty good point guard, and yeah he will have big games now and then, but he still faces the same challenges he did two years ago

poor perimeter defense
getting flustered against the press
inability to run a slow down defense (or defense late in the clock in general)
ability to not let negative emotions affect his play

Those I think are all fair criticisms of Quinn's game, and they've all been there from day one, and as a fan, it's been very frustrating to watch the same things dog him year after year, especially since only one of them really correlates to ability. He's a good athlete and a good basketball player, but unless he takes some steps now and over the summer, I think he's going to leave duke being just that.

The lapses in concentration and errors against the press seem like correctable problems, but, yes, I agree, these problems seem to persist.

Quinn is finding his playing time diminish; there are alternatives, and there will be next year, too, with Tyus Jones coming in with excellent PG skills. Rather than relegating Quinn to the bench, I think the staff believes he can still be a key player, and will give him every opportunity to prove it.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-17-2014, 01:00 PM
http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/17/nbcsports-com-bracketology-a-couple-of-saints-march-into-first-four/#/2014/02/17/acc-admits-officiating-error-in-marylands-loss-to-duke/

If this has already been posted and discussed, I apologize.

But apparently, there was an error in the possession arrow by the officials that allowed Duke to get an extra possession.

Surprised I haven't heard more Terping about this already.


EDIT: I now see that this was posted in another thread earlier today, soooo... nevermind. :)

DukieInBrasil
02-17-2014, 01:18 PM
Can you tell me a specific play where he did pull a face yesterday? I have rewatched 3/4 of the game so far and didn't see him pull a face once.
I think there is so much labeling on this forum of Quinn doing it that people automatically assume that when he makes a bad play he make the so called "face". Since the kid is only human then from time to time he will make a bad play.....if people want to see something they will....

I can, after throwing a poor pass that was stolen out above the top of the key against the 3-1-1 zone, as the MD player was racing for a layup, Quinn simply bowed his head down and half- his way in pursuit. Quinn didn't play again after that, IIRC. Although that may not be the "face" in question, it's the same lame attitude that often gets to Quinn after a mistake.

Furniture
02-17-2014, 01:21 PM
Sure, I can give an example. In the first half, he made a bad pass from the top of the key, which was intercepted. Rather than immediately sprinting back on defense, he stood there and pouted while Maryland was starting the fast break.

Hope that helps.

Hello. Yes that does help. Not sure that this is me changing my mind but I agree that if the face stops him from getting back and trying to correct mistake then it's not acceptable. He needs to hustle! Full stop. I think he does hustle most times.
But if a play stops because of one of his mistakes or he pulls a face afterwards then let him do it. I thought I saw Sheed pull a face after a bad play on Saturday and nobody gave him a hard time.

Dr. Rosenrosen
02-17-2014, 01:35 PM
Hello. Yes that does help. Not sure that this is me changing my mind but I agree that if the face stops him from getting back and trying to correct mistake then it's not acceptable. He needs to hustle! Full stop. I think he does hustle most times.
But if a play stops because of one of his mistakes or he pulls a face afterwards then let him do it. I thought I saw Sheed pull a face after a bad play on Saturday and nobody gave him a hard time.
It's one thing for a player to be upset about a play and briefly show it (in their face). It's another thing entirely when bad plays/decisions affect your attitude beyond that play. Quinn is not playing with great energy or hustle right now. And it affects not just him but the entire team. If your PG is playing sluggishly, the rest of the players on the court are going to have a hard time keeping their energy level up. As a leader, it's okay to be frustrated on the inside as long as you are diligent about not letting everyone see your sad face. It's not inspiring. He's not leading by example. You make a bad pass - sprint back and play tough D. But that's not what he's doing right now. And it's bad for the team. Just look at the difference in team energy level when Sheed has the ball in his hands... it just doesn't appear to be close to the same right now when QC is handling the rock out top, dribbling the ball around, not penetrating, slowing down the perimeter passing, etc. Frankly, it's odd.

gus
02-17-2014, 02:01 PM
Here is that particular play:

3923

3924

And yet, Quin was the 1 in the two on 1 break that resulted. Not sure what he could have done better after that pass. The person who was late there was Parker who had has arms up and was still complaining to Cook when the fast break started.

gus
02-17-2014, 02:14 PM
Let's see if I can get the upload to work:

After Cook and Parker botch the pass, Cook immediately gets back on defense, and is the victim of a well executed, classic 2 on 1. Parker is late:

3925

3926

rsvman
02-17-2014, 04:13 PM
Apropos of not much, here is my post-post-game obligatory "I can coach better than Coach K" post:

1) We are ahead by about 9 points or so and holding our own with Rodney on the bench and then K puts him in. Right after I told my 16-year-old son, "We don't need Hood right now; we are keeping separation without him; this bodes well, because Coach K can keep him on the bench for the rest of the half."

2) To me the key strategy that could potentially have turned this into a comfortable 10 to 15-point victory was to go after Dez Wells on the offensive end in an attempt to get his 4th and 5th fouls. Maryland was employing a strategy of screening to produce switches and then trying to exploit match-up inequalities, and they did so fairly effectively.

Why could we have not run a weave of sorts with lots of screens, watching carefully for a time when Wells would end up on Parker, and then feed the ball to Parker. With three fouls, Dez would've either had to play passively, which would allow Jabari to score pretty easily, or play aggressively, which could potentially have gotten him a 4th foul pretty quickly. After he had 4, I would've tried to go at him over and over again and exploit that problem as much as possible.

I really believe that this could've substantially altered the dynamics of the game.


/I can coach better than Coach K rant

LBF
02-17-2014, 06:11 PM
Cook is a good PG. he's just not a great and consistent one. But, no one on this team has been solid every time out. That's the nature of the beast unless you are talking about the relatively rare player who is solid night in and night out. For everyone clamoring for Rasheed to run point, look at how many times he turned the ball over in critical situations down the stretch. I'd much rather have Quinn running point unless he is having a really off night like this game. I agree it would be nice for him to play with a bit more energy at times, not pump up forced threes early in the sets, and to have a defensive lateral quickness transplant. It's just now going to happen. We are expecting him to be someone he is not. Accept him for what he brings and don't diminish what he does contribute. It is significant and vital to our team.

Kfanarmy
02-17-2014, 06:36 PM
Apropos of not much, here is my post-post-game obligatory "I can coach better than Coach K" post:

1) We are ahead by about 9 points or so and holding our own with Rodney on the bench and then K puts him in. Right after I told my 16-year-old son, "We don't need Hood right now; we are keeping separation without him; this bodes well, because Coach K can keep him on the bench for the rest of the half."

2) To me the key strategy that could potentially have turned this into a comfortable 10 to 15-point victory was to go after Dez Wells on the offensive end in an attempt to get his 4th and 5th fouls. Maryland was employing a strategy of screening to produce switches and then trying to exploit match-up inequalities, and they did so fairly effectively.

Why could we have not run a weave of sorts with lots of screens, watching carefully for a time when Wells would end up on Parker, and then feed the ball to Parker. With three fouls, Dez would've either had to play passively, which would allow Jabari to score pretty easily, or play aggressively, which could potentially have gotten him a 4th foul pretty quickly. After he had 4, I would've tried to go at him over and over again and exploit that problem as much as possible.

I really believe that this could've substantially altered the dynamics of the game.


/I can coach better than Coach K rant In the previous four minutes or so, MP3 had caused two MD fouls, gotten a put back and helped disrupt MD's offense...I really didn't understand taking him out for someone with four fouls at that point.

Furniture
02-17-2014, 06:55 PM
Cook is a good PG. he's just not a great and consistent one. But, no one on this team has been solid every time out. That's the nature of the beast unless you are talking about the relatively rare player who is solid night in and night out. For everyone clamoring for Rasheed to run point, look at how many times he turned the ball over in critical situations down the stretch. I'd much rather have Quinn running point unless he is having a really off night like this game. I agree it would be nice for him to play with a bit more energy at times, not pump up forced threes early in the sets, and to have a defensive lateral quickness transplant. It's just now going to happen. We are expecting him to be someone he is not. Accept him for what he brings and don't diminish what he does contribute. It is significant and vital to our team.

In end this is exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for putting it so eloquently

Atlanta Duke
02-17-2014, 07:08 PM
Yes he did and yes it true. I can't recall where it was reported, but I distinctly remember Hurley himself talking about them doing that and the impact it made on him. I am pretty sure it was done in the offseason between his Freshman and Sophomore years and the change in his on-court demeanor was noticeable.

(edit: or what OPK just said...)

Probably reported elsewhere, but the Hurley video counseling was reported in the Sports Illustrated story on the 1991 Final Four wins over UNLV & Kansas to win the NC.

Last season the Duke staff found his gestures and facial expressions so petulant that they produced a videotape to shock him into reforming himself. With the help of Laettner, who constantly reminded Hurley of how important a point guard's composure is to the stability of the entire team, it worked.

http://cnnsi.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1139807/3/index.htm

Having Laettner as locker room sheriff to reinforce the point no doubt helped.:) Do not know who can assume that role with this team.

roywhite
02-17-2014, 07:13 PM
Cook is a good PG. he's just not a great and consistent one. But, no one on this team has been solid every time out. That's the nature of the beast unless you are talking about the relatively rare player who is solid night in and night out. For everyone clamoring for Rasheed to run point, look at how many times he turned the ball over in critical situations down the stretch. I'd much rather have Quinn running point unless he is having a really off night like this game. I agree it would be nice for him to play with a bit more energy at times, not pump up forced threes early in the sets, and to have a defensive lateral quickness transplant. It's just now going to happen. We are expecting him to be someone he is not. Accept him for what he brings and don't diminish what he does contribute. It is significant and vital to our team.


In end this is exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for putting it so eloquently

I don't think Coach K is satisfied with the way Quinn is playing. Quinn is an experienced, talented player from whom much was expected, and lately, he has not been delivering. We've seen the coaches giving Quinn extra attention, a combination of praise and criticism, designed to get him going. In addition, he's been benched for periods of time. Seems clear to me that he is falling short of expectations lately, not that the expectation are unrealistic.

Newton_14
02-17-2014, 10:51 PM
Apropos of not much, here is my post-post-game obligatory "I can coach better than Coach K" post:

1) We are ahead by about 9 points or so and holding our own with Rodney on the bench and then K puts him in. Right after I told my 16-year-old son, "We don't need Hood right now; we are keeping separation without him; this bodes well, because Coach K can keep him on the bench for the rest of the half."

2) To me the key strategy that could potentially have turned this into a comfortable 10 to 15-point victory was to go after Dez Wells on the offensive end in an attempt to get his 4th and 5th fouls. Maryland was employing a strategy of screening to produce switches and then trying to exploit match-up inequalities, and they did so fairly effectively.

Why could we have not run a weave of sorts with lots of screens, watching carefully for a time when Wells would end up on Parker, and then feed the ball to Parker. With three fouls, Dez would've either had to play passively, which would allow Jabari to score pretty easily, or play aggressively, which could potentially have gotten him a 4th foul pretty quickly. After he had 4, I would've tried to go at him over and over again and exploit that problem as much as possible.

I really believe that this could've substantially altered the dynamics of the game.


/I can coach better than Coach K rant

I think those are fair thoughts. Our two main guys defending Wells were Tyler and Hood. We shut him down totally in the 1st Half (no points). Tyler and Rodney played a large portion of the 2nd Half with both having 4 fouls. That made it much easier for Wells to attack.

K is the GOAT but not perfect. Sometimes he will roll the dice with something that probably is not the best idea, and sometimes it works out and sometimes not. Like OT in the Syracuse game. I would like to have seen MP3, Josh or both defending down low in that OT, with Rasheed, Rodney, and Andre in there with them trying to do the scoring. Seeing as we forced the OT, we had Cuse on the ropes and had we been able to defend them with a normal size line up, we may very well have gotten enough stops to win.

We will never know but I think it could have been possible.

Anyway your thoughts on Saturday are not out in left field. K could have played that a little differently and its possible we keep a decent lead vs Maryland coming all the way back to go up 3.

At the end of the day though, it worked out. We got the W, and also, I personally think it was really good that we sealed the game with a defensive stop vs winning it by scoring on the last possession were we down 1 or 2 points. Like the UVa ending, it is a good experience they guys can draw on later down the road, having the confidence to know they can get a key stop to preserve a win having done it in a prior game.

Those are growing moments for a team even though it gives us fans heart failure!

Kedsy
02-18-2014, 12:13 AM
For everyone clamoring for Rasheed to run point, look at how many times he turned the ball over in critical situations down the stretch.

I'm on record several times as saying I think the offense runs much better with Quinn as PG than with Rasheed. That said, Rasheed only had two turnovers for the entire Maryland game. One was eight minutes into the second half, with Duke sporting a 9 point lead. It's true the other was with three minutes to play in a tie game, but when you tell us to "look at how many times he turned the ball over in critical situations down the stretch," the answer is *one*. Kind of hard to complain too much about that, wouldn't you say?

greybeard
02-18-2014, 12:16 AM
No, Cook was too busy telling Jabari the pass was for him when Jabari wasn't expecting the pass in the first place. One of those plays where those two weren't on the same page.

not good. would like to have been the fly in that conversation. not the right time for it, unless the run out was gone, even still probably not. but, there is a point, or is there a point?

LBF
02-18-2014, 02:16 AM
I'm on record several times as saying I think the offense runs much better with Quinn as PG than with Rasheed. That said, Rasheed only had two turnovers for the entire Maryland game. One was eight minutes into the second half, with Duke sporting a 9 point lead. It's true the other was with three minutes to play in a tie game, but when you tell us to "look at how many times he turned the ball over in critical situations down the stretch," the answer is *one*. Kind of hard to complain too much about that, wouldn't you say?

Ok kind of, but not really. Let's review what really happened. At 12:02, the ugliest one, he lost the crossover on penetration, which led to a critical Wells run out. At 7:49 he mishandled the ball badly, lost it and got lucky that it came back into our possession. And at 6:39 same thing happened with an out of control drive to the hole. However, this was the infamous tie up, wrong arrow that we maintained possession. He actually was out of bounds as well. At 2:59 he got called with the Phantom push off, so that was bs. I count 4 critical plays in 9 minutes. They are not all on the books as turnovers but man they made for some nervous moments. I reiterate that I'd much rather have Quinn at point.

Kedsy
02-18-2014, 02:24 AM
Ok kind of, but not really. Let's review what really happened. At 12:02, the ugliest one, he lost the crossover on penetration, which led to a critical Wells run out. At 7:49 he mishandled the ball badly, lost it and got lucky that it came back into our possession. And at 6:39 same thing happened with an out of control drive to the hole. However, this was the infamous tie up, wrong arrow that we maintained possession. He actually was out of bounds as well. At 2:59 he got called with the Phantom push off, so that was bs. I count 4 critical plays in 9 minutes. They are not all on the books as turnovers but man they made for some nervous moments. I reiterate that I'd much rather have Quinn at point.

I agree with your basic point. I'd rather have Quinn at PG as well. But it's a stretch to label a turnover with 12 minutes to play and us leading by 9 as "critical." The fact remains that Rasheed didn't turn it over much against Maryland, and even the best PGs turn it over sometimes.

LBF
02-18-2014, 03:02 AM
But it's a stretch to label a turnover with 12 minutes to play and us leading by 9 as "critical." .

Really? Did you watch the game? This was the most critical part of the game. It was the start of a 12-1 run where wells and Maryland went off. This is when they got back in the game.

And, yes even though they weren't all recorded as turnovers they were 4 lost balls in 9 minutes. Sheed is a solid wing, but let's not go crazy and make him point just yet.

jv001
02-18-2014, 06:53 AM
Ok kind of, but not really. Let's review what really happened. At 12:02, the ugliest one, he lost the crossover on penetration, which led to a critical Wells run out. At 7:49 he mishandled the ball badly, lost it and got lucky that it came back into our possession. And at 6:39 same thing happened with an out of control drive to the hole. However, this was the infamous tie up, wrong arrow that we maintained possession. He actually was out of bounds as well. At 2:59 he got called with the Phantom push off, so that was bs. I count 4 critical plays in 9 minutes. They are not all on the books as turnovers but man they made for some nervous moments. I reiterate that I'd much rather have Quinn at point.

There are turnovers and then there are turnovers, lol. I had rather see a player make a turnover driving to the basket than a sloppy/lazy pass out front that goes for a layup the other way any day. The good Quinn runs Duke's offense very well and commits few turnovers, but the bad Quinn loses focus and makes the 2nd turnover(sloppy/lazy). The bad Quinn cannot play good on the ball defense but the good Quinn can. I want the good Quinn back!!!!!!!!!GoDuke!!

BD80
02-18-2014, 08:16 AM
... I'm as big a Brian Zoubek fan as anybody, but there's no reason to make him out as some sort of Michelangelo, ...

I see Zoub more as Raphael, more physical, less finesse than the other turtles


Didn't Bobby Hurley do it so much they made a video clipping together lots of instances and made him watch it after his freshman year? ...

Did they have video back then? If so, I'll bet it was Beta.

El_Diablo
02-18-2014, 08:55 AM
Let's see if I can get the upload to work:

After Cook and Parker botch the pass, Cook immediately gets back on defense, and is the victim of a well executed, classic 2 on 1. Parker is late:

3925

3926

Rather than "after Cook and Parker botch the pass," I think you mean "after Cook botches the pass." I think you also mean "Cook stands there gesturing in frustration for 2 seconds before turning to head back on defense." And despite your second screenshot, he does not really "get back on defense"...he ultimately just flies past the guy going in for the layup but does not actually affect the shot or foul the guy. Maybe if he had not stood around pouting at the outset, he might have had a chance to plant his feet for a charge or meet the ball a few feet further out (rather than running by near the blocks while the offensive player is already in his shooting motion).

From that first screenshot, it looks like Parker did shrug his arms to Cook as he started running back, but how does that excuse Cook's behavior at all? Parker is clearly responding to Cook, who is just standing there still...so please explain again how Cook did everything right. Because he beat Parker down the court? It would be pretty hard not to beat Parker down the court, given how far out front Cook started. If you want to take issue with Parker's reaction, I would say that makes it even worse for Cook, because not only are his emotions affecting his own play but dragging others down with him.

gus
02-18-2014, 09:36 AM
Rather than "after Cook and Parker botch the pass," I think you mean "after Cook botches the pass." I think you also mean "Cook stands there gesturing in frustration for 2 seconds before turning to head back on defense." And despite your second screenshot, he does not really "get back on defense"...he ultimately just flies past the guy going in for the layup but does not actually affect the shot or foul the guy. Maybe if he had not stood around pouting at the outset, he might have had a chance to plant his feet for a charge or meet the ball a few feet further out (rather than running by near the blocks while the offensive player is already in his shooting motion).

From that first screenshot, it looks like Parker did shrug his arms to Cook as he started running back, but how does that excuse Cook's behavior at all? Parker is clearly responding to Cook, who is just standing there still...so please explain again how Cook did everything right. Because he beat Parker down the court? It would be pretty hard not to beat Parker down the court, given how far out front Cook started. If you want to take issue with Parker's reaction, I would say that makes it even worse for Cook, because not only are his emotions affecting his own play but dragging others down with him.

I think you're being way too hard on Cook here. There was clearly a miscommunication between him and Parker. We don't know whose mistake it really was, but we can choose between the junior guard who was calling a play given to him from the bench, or the forward who (as phenomenal as he is) is still a freshman, and has been caught out of position several times this season. You choose A. Without more facts I'm not going to assign blame, but I think it's fair to say there is a chance that Parker was to blame too. What I do know is they both looked at each other, and had a quick conversation after the ball was inbounded.

But at least you now agree that Cook, despite your earlier posts, did indeed get back on the break. That's a step forward at least. But I have to make a few observations:

I think you need to rewatch the play if you think Cook "just flies past the guy going in for the layup".
If Cook had stood around for "2 seconds" before getting back, he would have been no where near the defensive play.
If you think Cook had any chance of drawing a charge on the play, you're crazy. The 2-1 break was executed perfectly.

daveduke76
02-18-2014, 10:14 AM
One thing I saw a couple times was Amile coming off of a screen, wide open, headed towards the basket with his arms up wanting a pass. He never seems to get that pass, although he is very open.
Any ideas why he is ignored in that situation?

Kedsy
02-18-2014, 11:37 AM
Really? Did you watch the game? This was the most critical part of the game. It was the start of a 12-1 run where wells and Maryland went off. This is when they got back in the game.

Yeah, I did watch the game. In the four minutes after Rasheed's turnover, we shot zero for 8 from the field and Maryland made four layups in four attempts. I suppose the difference between us is I don't see how you can blame the later stuff on the first turnover.

Kedsy
02-18-2014, 11:48 AM
Rather than "after Cook and Parker botch the pass," I think you mean "after Cook botches the pass."

I'm going to agree with gus on this one. Quinn clearly expected Jabari to cut toward the ball before he threw that pass. Whether he should have expected Jabari to go there is something that's really hard to evaluate, but he wasn't just throwing the ball away as you suggest.

Also, if he'd really stopped to sulk there's no way he could have gotten back before the layup.


One thing I saw a couple times was Amile coming off of a screen, wide open, headed towards the basket with his arms up wanting a pass. He never seems to get that pass, although he is very open.
Any ideas why he is ignored in that situation?

I noticed this as well, and agree it's a little frustrating that the guards never even seem to consider throwing that pass.

That said, in most (maybe even all) of the ones that I saw, the passing angle was pretty difficult. I'm not at all convinced that any passes in those situations would have gotten to Amile in such a way that he could have converted them, or at least they would have been risky propositions.

So, it bothered me that the guards didn't seem to evaluate the situation before ignoring Amile alone under the basket, but I can certainly see why they didn't actually try the pass.

El_Diablo
02-18-2014, 01:29 PM
I'm going to agree with gus on this one. Quinn clearly expected Jabari to cut toward the ball before he threw that pass. Whether he should have expected Jabari to go there is something that's really hard to evaluate, but he wasn't just throwing the ball away as you suggest.

Also, if he'd really stopped to sulk there's no way he could have gotten back before the layup.


Yes, it was clearly a miscommunication. But only one of them is credited with a turnover (the passer), and rightly so. But he made the pass, not Jabari. As a ballhandler, he needs to be more focused and careful with his passes rather than assume someone is going to be somewhere where he's not. But I don't mind the turnover itself (miscommunications do happen), just his reaction afterwards. And yes, he did stop to sulk. I don't know why you can't see that, but look at the screenshots. I posted one earlier, where Quinn is already standing there with his hands up at 12:11 when the Maryland player has the ball. Then gus' screenshot at 12:10 shows Quinn standing there gesturing, yet he still hasn't turned around to run back.

This is just one play, and not the end of the world...someone asked for an example of Quinn's emotional responses to bad plays, and I provided one. If people want to pick it apart and say he did everything right, so be it. You won't get me to agree with you, however.

EDIT: fixed the timestamps

devildeac
02-18-2014, 02:22 PM
No, that is a true story and not urban legend. And it worked.


Yes he did and yes it true. I can't recall where it was reported, but I distinctly remember Hurley himself talking about them doing that and the impact it made on him. I am pretty sure it was done in the offseason between his Freshman and Sophomore years and the change in his on-court demeanor was noticeable.

(edit: or what OPK just said...)

I'm pretty sure that story was told in K's/Brill's book, A Season Is a Lifetime. I'll see if I can find it tonight.