WBB: Duke vs UNC

[wandalee]

Round 1 is Mon at Cameron. Game time is 7:00. It's on ESPN2, but there are still tickets available. Here are the game notes from GoDuke.com

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=209401164&DB_OEM_ID=4200

GTHC!!!

[throatybeard]

Round 1 is Mon at Cameron. Game time is 7:00. It's on ESPN2, but there are still tickets available. Here are the game notes from GoDuke.com

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22760&SPID=1846&DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=209401164&DB_OEM_ID=4200

GTHC!!!

I'm so glad this is on national TV. It's hard to follow the women if you aren't in ACC country.

[CameronBornAndBred]

The Tarheels are coming into Cameron on a three game losing streak. Duke moved back to third in the most recent poll, while the Heels dropped to 17th.
A decent team on a three game skid is a scary group to play, I expect this won't be an easy game for us tonight, especially if we don't come out on fire. I really have not idea what to predict, it could be a close call or a blowout win for us. I only ask for a strong start...we need it!
LGD, GTHC!!!

[-jk]

For those with access and so inclined, DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open!

-jk

[dukelifer]

Sloppy play and poor shooting by Duke. Letting UNC get confidence.

[Duvall]

Did the Crazies just fool the ref into an inadvertent whistle?

[dukelifer]

Duke getting blown out. Horrible game

[Duvall]

Duke doesn't have a talent advantage tonight, so.

[duke09hms]

Duke pretending like they're playing UConn.

What is it with women basketball players and missing layups?

[uh_no]

Duke pretending like they're playing UConn.

What is it with women basketball players and missing layups?

they are on average much further from the rim at the point of release, since they are shorter, and likely more importantly, cannot jump as high. This more than accounts for the smaller ball.

[miramar]

In recent Carolina losses Miami went on a 22-4 run and Syracuse overcame an 18 point deficit.

This would be a great time for a win one for the Gipper halftime speech.

[dukelifer]

Duke doesn't have a talent advantage tonight, so.

But they have experience. Clearly not using that either. UNC is killing them from deep.

[Duvall]

But they have experience. Clearly not using that either. UNC is killing them from deep.

The ineffectiveness of the matchup zone against quality opponents is a problem.

[dukelifer]

The ineffectiveness of the matchup zone against quality opponents is a problem.

Thought they had a chance. Got it to 1 with the ball but back to 9 and a chance at 11 or 12. Not gonna happen tonight.

[Duvall]

Duke at a real disadvantage against UNC with Sylvia Hatchell watching at home.

[duke09hms]

Duke PG Alexis Jones really came to play tonight. Catalyst.
Still might have a chance to pull it out despite UNC shooting lights out from 3.

[Duvall]

Duke PG Alexis Jones really came to play tonight. Catalyst.
Still might have a chance to pull it out despite UNC shooting lights out from 3.

Nah, that last series should just about do it.

[duke09hms]

McCallie's offensive sets are quite unimaginative. Seems like they just pass it into Elizabeth Williams down low and hope she can create some magic.

Defense is getting gashed.

[Duvall]

Will the Wake Forest streak survive this year?

[dukelifer]

Duke at a real disadvantage against UNC with Sylvia Hatchell watching at home.

And Ivory Latta on the bench

[Duvall]

That's okay, this kind of thing happened to John Wooden all the time.

[miramar]

That's okay, this kind of thing happened to John Wooden all the time.

For fifteen years, or so I've heard.

[Kfanarmy]

That's okay, this kind of thing happened to John Wooden all the time.. I only saw the last six minutes...what's going on with the d? Why in heaven try to press over and over after the other team breaks it easily?

[CameronBornAndBred]

The Tarheels are coming into Cameron on a three game losing streak. Duke moved back to third in the most recent poll, while the Heels dropped to 17th.
A decent team on a three game skid is a scary group to play, I expect this won't be an easy game for us tonight, especially if we don't come out on fire. I really have not idea what to predict, it could be a close call or a blowout win for us. I only ask for a strong start...we need it!
LGD, GTHC!!!

Note that a constant 10 point tarheel lead was not one of my predicted options. Ugh. We are missing too many pieces again.

[dukelifer]

Not sure UNC is as good as they looked tonight- but Duke was not able to stop their threes all night. Duke is definitely struggling with good teams. Hopefully they can find their D again.

[Duvall]

. I only saw the last six minutes...what's going on with the d? Why in heaven try to press over and over after the other team breaks it easily?

Matchup zone wasn't working, and Duke doesn't run too many defenses.

[msdukie]

Note that a constant 10 point tarheel lead was not one of my predicted options. Ugh. We are missing too many pieces again.

Starting at the top.

[MCFinARL]

And Ivory Latta on the bench

Still the scariest person I have ever seen play women's hoops.


Matchup zone wasn't working, and Duke doesn't run too many defenses.

Can't claim any expertise as I have not studied the strategies of the Duke women that closely over the years, but I feel like the knock on McCallie's teams used to be that, while they were awesome on defense (except against UConn), they were inept or inconsistent on offense. This year it seems like neither offense nor defense can be relied on consistently, though both have been good in some games.

I feel bad for this team. Losing Chelsea Gray is obviously huge, but even with the talent they have, they should be able to play a bit better than they do. The effort seems to be there, but the results are not--it has to be frustrating for these players.

[Duvall]

I feel bad for this team. Losing Chelsea Gray is obviously huge, but even with the talent they have, they should be able to play a bit better than they do. The effort seems to be there, but the results are not--it has to be frustrating for these players.

It's awful to watch a great group of seniors end their careers like this.

[Sixthman]

Not sure UNC is as good as they looked tonight- but Duke was not able to stop their threes all night. Duke is definitely struggling with good teams. Hopefully they can find their D again.

Duke played with no passion, and a genuine, consistent, never faultering, indifference. Part of the problem was the defensive game plan could not have been more poorly calculated to defend against the particular Carolina team that showed up. I think that is to Carolina's credit. But Duke's failure to adjust, and failure to meet the passion of Carolina, was, frankly, embarrassing.

[ricks68]

Duke played with no passion, and a genuine, consistent, never faultering, indifference. Part of the problem was the defensive game plan could not have been more poorly calculated to defend against the particular Carolina team that showed up. I think that is to Carolina's credit. But Duke's failure to adjust, and failure to meet the passion of Carolina, was, frankly, embarrassing.

Unfortunately, couldn't agree more.

ricks

[Duvall]

Duke played with no passion, and a genuine, consistent, never faultering, indifference. Part of the problem was the defensive game plan could not have been more poorly calculated to defend against the particular Carolina team that showed up. I think that is to Carolina's credit. But Duke's failure to adjust, and failure to meet the passion of Carolina, was, frankly, embarrassing.

This strikes me as wrong, and badly so. Duke had plenty of passion tonight - the numerous jump balls and forced turnovers attested to that. But it was poorly focused, undirected effort.

[ricks68]

This strikes me as wrong, and badly so. Duke had plenty of passion tonight - the numerous jump balls and forced turnovers attested to that. But it was poorly focused, undirected effort.

I can agree with that, also. (Not trying to be a fence-sitter, here, however. Just think that both sides have a point.)

ricks

[captmojo]

This was on Coach. The game plan was wrong. But to unc's credit, they made the best advantage of what Duke's defense was allowing. Nearly every 3 they hit was defensively uncontested. I suppose the plan was to matchup zone against inside play and it left WIDE OPEN shooters on the wings, that hit shots they were offered. In contrast, Duke's offensive plan was to work the ball into the paint and see just how many layups they could miss. Ugghhhh! It was seldom appearing that Liston was working to look for HER shot, choosing rather to look to the inside for a drop-down pass that was many times off target. Not just Liston, by the way. Therefore, it seems to have been the game plan to put dependence on Williams.

These ladies need to learn how backboard caroms work. Those were some ugly missed layups.

[MCFinARL]

I can agree with that, also. (Not trying to be a fence-sitter, here, however. Just think that both sides have a point.)

ricks

I think sometimes when teams seem unable to shift into another gear and fight back when challenged, we are too quick to interpret that as indifference or lack of passion. It's a lack of something--but I'm not sure it is passion. The team didn't look to me like they didn't care, and in fact they fought back and cut the margin several times, but then each time gave up points in clusters. For whatever reason, they didn't have the presence of mind, or the trained reflexes, to get key defensive stops after closing the gap. I don't think the reason is that they didn't care.

[GGLC]

Winning the games we're supposed to win would also be good.

[ricks68]

I think sometimes when teams seem unable to shift into another gear and fight back when challenged, we are too quick to interpret that as indifference or lack of passion. It's a lack of something--but I'm not sure it is passion. The team didn't look to me like they didn't care, and in fact they fought back and cut the margin several times, but then each time gave up points in clusters. For whatever reason, they didn't have the presence of mind, or the trained reflexes, to get key defensive stops after closing the gap. I don't think the reason is that they didn't care.

I guess I should have read the original post more carefully, as I don't think "indifference" was a good description of what I consider what went wrong, either. We just seem to fall apart sometimes, and just cannot seem to get over the hump, and while coaching may be a large part of the problem, I have a very difficult time assigning "blame" in that direction. I am not a coach, and do not consider myself qualified to make those kind of judgments in a situation such as this. I do think, however, that we lose a number of important games too many times for my liking because something appears to be "missing".:(

ricks

[CameronBornAndBred]

Starting at the top.

Strongly disagree. I love P, I am a huge supporter of hers. I wonder who else we would have come in as she did and keep an elite program actually in the elite status? I have no more qualms with her coaching than I have with K's, and there are many games that I turn off my TV wondering what the hell he and his staff were thinking.
I am talking players only. Missing Chloe and Chelsea is a huge chunk gone.

[throatybeard]

I watched the game, and my first interest, even more than the result was, oh please let's don't have that thread again on DBR.

Wherever you go, there you are.

I suppose I should say something else to make this substantive. I'm frustrated by our inability to get Liston free on offense. Over and over, I was screaming at the TV LISTONN! and then she wasn't open anymore.

[CameronBornAndBred]

These ladies need to learn how backboard caroms work. Those were some ugly missed layups.
That one I will agree with, also strongly. I have no idea what it is specifically about Duke women's hoops, but it is like they are instructed to practice missing layups and two foot shots. I have never seen a team miss so many consistently year after year; it is so frustrating.

[Duvall]

That one I will agree with, also strongly. I have no idea what it is specifically about Duke women's hoops, but it is like they are instructed to practice missing layups and two foot shots. I have never seen a team miss so many consistently year after year; it is so frustrating.

Must be a coincidence, I guess.

[dubldvman]

Duke played with no passion, and a genuine, consistent, never faultering, indifference. Part of the problem was the defensive game plan could not have been more poorly calculated to defend against the particular Carolina team that showed up. I think that is to Carolina's credit. But Duke's failure to adjust, and failure to meet the passion of Carolina, was, frankly, embarrassing.

Haven't missed a men's or women's home game in over 20 years so I think I have some perspective although I offer only my opinion-no special knowledge or insight and certainly my thoughts are open to disagreement. Until tonight, we had beaten Carolina 7 straight times and something like 10 of last 12. We have recently dominated while if we are honest they have been a notch below us talent-wise and really had a bunch of injuries that make ours look minor...I mean 4-5 players at a time. So the eventual loss to them when at full strength was not unexpected. However, I do think we saw a couple of things tonight of relevance. One think I personally did not see was lack of passion from our players-I think our women wanted it badly- however not sure our coach has yet to recognize the importance of the Carolina game to her fan base and listening to her radio show I think she really sees every game equally-which may admittedly be effective, she has certainly dominated the series since her arrival.

First, Carolina was only averaging 5 made threes per game so our first half defensive game plan was a risk but understandable. However, when DeShields couldn't miss and others were getting wide open shots we needed, at least in second half, to change our defensive strategy. But honestly, did I mention I have been there for every McCallie-coached game(?), we really do have a coach who cannot/does not make in-game adjustments against big-time opponents. She is able to amass a gaudy record in the ACC vs.also-rans-which has included Carolina the past few years-but she is simply not capable of elevating our program to national contender status because she gets outcoached in our marquis match ups. That does not mean that she is not a very good coach, it is just all about what a program aspires to be. Duke Athletics administration may be satisfied with the consistent 20+ win seasons but we are not a Final Four caliber program at this point. Name the really big, national game in McCallie's career at Duke that she has won? You can't.

I also think that we saw one of the youngest teams in the ACC take apart the most veteran team in the conference tonight and, while we can certainly beat them this year in CH and/or in Greensboro if given the chance, I think we saw the passing of the torch tonight to an extremely talented, incredibly quick team who is going to give us fits for years to come. Everyone wants to talk about Chelsea and, while her loss is significant, how many McDonalds All Americans are there to take her place. Carolina has a couple of players who made Alexis, Tricia and Haley look pedestrian. They finally have the young players who are going to run teams out of the gym in the next few years.

And, as an aside, the reason that we miss so many layups is that we are trying to draw contact per McCallie's approach and it has not worked during her tenure. She is really about team development over player development and that is why we sometimes see some players like Haley and Che on this team actually regress during their years at Duke.

This is not written as a slam on the program although some will take it that way. It is a realistic assessment of where we are. I don't like to lose to the Heels but this is not written based on this one game or my disappointment. Again we have been dominant of late in this series. It is using this game as an example of where we are and in recognition that we are a consistent top 10 program that, in my opinion and only my opinion, will not be able to compete with the NDs, Tenns, Stanfords and Louisvilles-much less the UCONNs-consistently under McCallie. Ideally it is about who we aspire to be and practically it is about how many fewer season tickets will be sold next year...I am hearing enough rumblings in my center court section that I bet we are down 10-15% next year.

Now, if you have managed to read to this point and not given up out of boredom it may also be that this group has just run its course and, despite our high hopes for them, are really just a solid top 10 team, just not any better than the past few years. And I suppose what is wrong with that?

[Dukehky]

I would call in 12 offensive lineman from the football team. Give them each a pad and tell them to each stand under one of the 12 baskets in the K center, and then tell each player on DWB to split up one to each goal. Then for 45 minutes just have the football players beat the hell out of them with pads while the team tries to make lay-ups.

The box in one defense was... ineffective tonight. We have no depth on the perimeter right now due to injuries so we can't play man to man because we just can't lose Lex to foul trouble. She's our only player who can create with quickness with the ball.

The team has been decimated by injuries, and they didn't play well. I don't think Coach P has the chops to pull off miracles, and think she's doing the absolute best she can with what she has to work with right now. I also think Haley needs to take up more of a scoring load. She has the ability I just think she always tries to make the unselfish, perfect basketball play and it ends up hurting the team. Just shoot the ball girl, you have all the skill in the world.

[fisheyes]

Haven't missed a men's or women's home game in over 20 years so I think I have some perspective although I offer only my opinion-no special knowledge or insight and certainly my thoughts are open to disagreement. Until tonight, we had beaten Carolina 7 straight times and something like 10 of last 12. We have recently dominated while if we are honest they have been a notch below us talent-wise and really had a bunch of injuries that make ours look minor...I mean 4-5 players at a time. So the eventual loss to them when at full strength was not unexpected. However, I do think we saw a couple of things tonight of relevance. One think I personally did not see was lack of passion from our players-I think our women wanted it badly- however not sure our coach has yet to recognize the importance of the Carolina game to her fan base and listening to her radio show I think she really sees every game equally-which may admittedly be effective, she has certainly dominated the series since her arrival.

First, Carolina was only averaging 5 made threes per game so our first half defensive game plan was a risk but understandable. However, when DeShields couldn't miss and others were getting wide open shots we needed, at least in second half, to change our defensive strategy. But honestly, did I mention I have been there for every McCallie-coached game(?), we really do have a coach who cannot/does not make in-game adjustments against big-time opponents. She is able to amass a gaudy record in the ACC vs.also-rans-which has included Carolina the past few years-but she is simply not capable of elevating our program to national contender status because she gets outcoached in our marquis match ups. That does not mean that she is not a very good coach, it is just all about what a program aspires to be. Duke Athletics administration may be satisfied with the consistent 20+ win seasons but we are not a Final Four caliber program at this point. Name the really big, national game in McCallie's career at Duke that she has won? You can't.

I also think that we saw one of the youngest teams in the ACC take apart the most veteran team in the conference tonight and, while we can certainly beat them this year in CH and/or in Greensboro if given the chance, I think we saw the passing of the torch tonight to an extremely talented, incredibly quick team who is going to give us fits for years to come. Everyone wants to talk about Chelsea and, while her loss is significant, how many McDonalds All Americans are there to take her place. Carolina has a couple of players who made Alexis, Tricia and Haley look pedestrian. They finally have the young players who are going to run teams out of the gym in the next few years.

And, as an aside, the reason that we miss so many layups is that we are trying to draw contact per McCallie's approach and it has not worked during her tenure. She is really about team development over player development and that is why we sometimes see some players like Haley and Che on this team actually regress during their years at Duke.

This is not written as a slam on the program although some will take it that way. It is a realistic assessment of where we are. I don't like to lose to the Heels but this is not written based on this one game or my disappointment. Again we have been dominant of late in this series. It is using this game as an example of where we are and in recognition that we are a consistent top 10 program that, in my opinion and only my opinion, will not be able to compete with the NDs, Tenns, Stanfords and Louisvilles-much less the UCONNs-consistently under McCallie. Ideally it is about who we aspire to be and practically it is about how many fewer season tickets will be sold next year...I am hearing enough rumblings in my center court section that I bet we are down 10-15% next year.

Now, if you have managed to read to this point and not given up out of boredom it may also be that this group has just run its course and, despite our high hopes for them, are really just a solid top 10 team, just not any better than the past few years. And I suppose what is wrong with that?

This is exactly what I was thinking while the clock was ticking down. Has the coach lost the respect of her team?

I am still shaking my head over Coach's use of #s to identify the ND players in the post game presser.

[ricks68]

I watched the game, and my first interest, even more than the result was, oh please let's don't have that thread again on DBR.

Wherever you go, there you are.

I suppose I should say something else to make this substantive. I'm frustrated by our inability to get Liston free on offense. Over and over, I was screaming at the TV LISTONN! and then she wasn't open anymore.


No reason to bring Professor Irwin Corey into the discussion.;)

ricks

[Kedsy]

I watched the game, and my first interest, even more than the result was, oh please let's don't have that thread again on DBR.

I agree. I'm just too tired. We lost the game, I get that. We're 22-3 now. Why does every loss have to be a referendum on the head coach and the future of the program?

[uh_no]

I agree. I'm just too tired. We lost the game, I get that. We're 22-3 now. Why does every loss have to be a referendum on the head coach and the future of the program?

because that's what happens when fans get frustrated?

[Kedsy]

because that's what happens when fans get frustrated?

Only some fans. There can't be more than three or four fanbases that are as -- what's the word? Unforgiving? (that's as polite as I can make it, "entitled" might be better) -- as Duke's fanbase in situations like this.

[Des Esseintes]

Only some fans. There can't be more than three or four fanbases that are as -- what's the word? Unforgiving? (that's as polite as I can make it, "entitled" might be better) -- as Duke's fanbase in situations like this.

Someday we may get a program Duke fans truly deserve. That'll be an interesting day.

[Class of '94]

Only some fans. There can't be more than three or four fanbases that are as -- what's the word? Unforgiving? (that's as polite as I can make it, "entitled" might be better) -- as Duke's fanbase in situations like this.

I really purposely tried not to comment to this thread and just let things go......But I have to say say something now. Personally, I have had some of the same critical thoughts about the women's program under P that many posters have stated; and I clearly haven't followed all of the post game threads after DWB losses, so maybe there is something to what you're saying or implying about the Duke fanbase. Clearly, you and some others are strong supporters of Coach P and that's fine; but why are fans who are frustrated "unforgiving" or "entitled" just because they disagree with Coach P's coaching philosophies and women's performances against really good, elite teams?

Last night was another example imo of the pattern of flaws (missed layups, bad turnovers, stretches throughout a game where they don't score, getting beat on the boards at key times, for example) that the women have shown over the years against a lot of teams; the difference being that they can get away with it against lesser competition but not against really good to elite teams.

Can you honestly defend last night's performance of the team n the Carolina game? The defense wasn't very good at key moment's when they needed a stop, they were too loose and sloppy with the ball throughout the game, they couldn't guard the freshman Diamond Deshields and consistently left 3 pt shooters wide open (something they've consistently been doing this year).......

Again, I get it P has won a lot of games and has had sustained success at Duke (and that's great); she took her Michigan State team to a Final 4 with arguably lesser talent than her Duke squads and in less time compared to her years at Duke, which I think adds to the frustration. But is it being unreasonable to want more from your program? It appears that you and some others are basically saying this is as good as it gets, be happy with it and don't complain about it. We should be happy with what the team is accomplishing and not expect anything more out of them. I'm note saying Final 4s and NC should define how good or successful a coach a program are; but it would be nice to aspire to a level where the team could make it there every now and then or at some point. And because we've seen Duke advance and accomplish so much (beating the UConns and Tenns multiple times in the regular season and NCAAT), it's hard (at least for me) to just settle for elite 8 appearances (when you believe the teams are capable of doing more). I appreciate what Coach has accomplished, but I believe she has brought in the talent to accomplish more.

Maybe many of us are delusional in that we see the DWB program as an elite program with enough talent (injuries aside) to make it a Final 4 and someday win a NC; and the reality is that Duke just isn't that kind of program. However, the problem with that thinking is Duke has been to Final 4s (with less talent) and to NC games, so we know it can be done. I believe to think otherwise would be unreasonably lowering expectations and settling when the program is talented enough to do great things.

As great as you think Coach P is, can you honestly say without a doubt that P can and will take a Duke team to a Final 4 based on her teams' performances (and consistent trends that have emerged) during her tenure? I know I can't. I think you would be hard-pressed to truly believe we can beat MD one time this season right now with the way the women are playing. I just don't think this team is currently trending in the right direction (Haley hasn't been playing well against good competition, turnovers, shot selection, poor defense, rebounding, etc.); and I think it's on both the team and the coach; and they have to come together to fix this now or I believe they won't even make to the elite 8 this year.

Maybe I am spoiled from the previous success of DWB; but I don't think it should be considered blasphemy to criticize Coach P; and I don't believe anyone is asking for P to be fired; rather, people are wondering how far she can take the Duke program.

I'm done talking on this subject and commenting on DWB for now. It's not worth getting into anymore arguments, or people taking shots at another group simply because they disagree with them. I'm just going to sit back for the rest of the year, root for the ladies and their coach, and hope this team can right the ship, overcome the injury adversities and make a deep run in the post-season.

People have their strong stances about Coach P on both sides of the fence; but remember we all want DWB to be extremely successful and I think it's ok and healthy to have differing opinions on DWB should best go about it without being labelled as "unreasonable", "unforgiving" or "entitled".

[dubldvman]

I really purposely tried not to comment to this thread and just let things go......But I have to say say something now. Personally, I have had some of the same critical thoughts about the women's program under P that many posters have stated; and I clearly haven't followed all of the post game threads after DWB losses, so maybe there is something to what you're saying or implying about the Duke fanbase. Clearly, you and some others are strong supporters of Coach P and that's fine; but why are fans who are frustrated "unforgiving" or "entitled" just because they disagree with Coach P's coaching philosophies and women's performances against really good, elite teams?

Last night was another example imo of the pattern of flaws (missed layups, bad turnovers, stretches throughout a game where they don't score, getting beat on the boards at key times, for example) that the women have shown over the years against a lot of teams; the difference being that they can get away with it against lesser competition but not against really good to elite teams.

Can you honestly defend last night's performance of the team n the Carolina game? The defense wasn't very good at key moment's when they needed a stop, they were too loose and sloppy with the ball throughout the game, they couldn't guard the freshman Diamond Deshields and consistently left 3 pt shooters wide open (something they've consistently been doing this year).......

Again, I get it P has won a lot of games and has had sustained success at Duke (and that's great); she took her Michigan State team to a Final 4 with arguably lesser talent than her Duke squads and in less time compared to her years at Duke, which I think adds to the frustration. But is it being unreasonable to want more from your program? It appears that you and some others are basically saying this is as good as it gets, be happy with it and don't complain about it. We should be happy with what the team is accomplishing and not expect anything more out of them. I'm note saying Final 4s and NC should define how good or successful a coach a program are; but it would be nice to aspire to a level where the team could make it there every now and then or at some point. And because we've seen Duke advance and accomplish so much (beating the UConns and Tenns multiple times in the regular season and NCAAT), it's hard (at least for me) to just settle for elite 8 appearances (when you believe the teams are capable of doing more). I appreciate what Coach has accomplished, but I believe she has brought in the talent to accomplish more.

Maybe many of us are delusional in that we see the DWB program as an elite program with enough talent (injuries aside) to make it a Final 4 and someday win a NC; and the reality is that Duke just isn't that kind of program. However, the problem with that thinking is Duke has been to Final 4s (with less talent) and to NC games, so we know it can be done. I believe to think otherwise would be unreasonably lowering expectations and settling when the program is talented enough to do great things.

As great as you think Coach P is, can you honestly say without a doubt that P can and will take a Duke team to a Final 4 based on her teams' performances (and consistent trends that have emerged) during her tenure? I know I can't. I think you would be hard-pressed to truly believe we can beat MD one time this season right now with the way the women are playing. I just don't think this team is currently trending in the right direction (Haley hasn't been playing well against good competition, turnovers, shot selection, poor defense, rebounding, etc.); and I think it's on both the team and the coach; and they have to come together to fix this now or I believe they won't even make to the elite 8 this year.

Maybe I am spoiled from the previous success of DWB; but I don't think it should be considered blasphemy to criticize Coach P; and I don't believe anyone is asking for P to be fired; rather, people are wondering how far she can take the Duke program.

I'm done talking on this subject and commenting on DWB for now. It's not worth getting into anymore arguments, or people taking shots at another group simply because they disagree with them. I'm just going to sit back for the rest of the year, root for the ladies and their coach, and hope this team can right the ship, overcome the injury adversities and make a deep run in the post-season.

People have their strong stances about Coach P on both sides of the fence; but remember we all want DWB to be extremely successful and I think it's ok and healthy to have differing opinions on DWB should best go about it without being labelled as "unreasonable", "unforgiving" or "entitled".



Well stated, reasoned comments. Thank you. Duke is about "outrageous ambition" in all things and it is ok to reflect on what it will take to move forward. Thank you.

[miramar]

Well stated, reasoned comments. Thank you. Duke is about "outrageous ambition" in all things and it is ok to reflect on what it will take to move forward. Thank you.

I agree with both of you. While we may have friendly disagreements, I think we all want the best for Duke, in WBB and in everything else. There is certainly no reason to take things personally or to get upset over different points of view as long as we are looking forward towards the same goals.

We all know that with Coach P there are the good news and the bad news, so it's no surprise that there are differences of opinion on her tenure. She has won a whole lot of games at Duke, including a very impressive seven game stretch vs. UNC. She has also suffered 24 double-digit losses and has yet to reach to Final Four despite having outstanding talent.

Nevertheless, all of a sudden we seem to be standing at the crossroads, which I don't think anyone would have predicted just a couple of weeks ago. Duke had a one point victory over Miami on January 30 and then two tough losses in the last three games. Over the next three weeks Maryland comes to Cameron, and then there are away games with Notre Dame and UNC.

By the time the ACC and the NCAA tournaments come around, we should have a pretty good fix on the future of Duke basketball, one way or another.

[Kedsy]

Maybe many of us are delusional in that we see the DWB program as an elite program with enough talent (injuries aside) to make it a Final 4 and someday win a NC; and the reality is that Duke just isn't that kind of program.

No, here's the reality: after the UConn and Notre Dame games, the anti-P crowd was yammering about how we can't beat elite teams. Now some people are spouting the same nonsense after we lose a rivalry game against a team we'd beaten the previous seven times we've played them. Notwithstanding the normal internet message board reaction, most of the time when you lose a game, it's just a loss, it's not part of some larger pattern or downward spiral.

Here's another reality: the men's team and coach got a pass from the fan base when Kyrie Irving got injured; nobody around here freaked out too much when we lost four of the 13 games in which Ryan Kelly was injured last season. And yet, people seem to think the women's team should just cruise right on after losing a first-team All American PG for the season? Did you know that since the start of the 2012-13 season, Duke women have gone 40-2 in games in which Chelsea Grey has played? And the only two losses both came to a UConn team that won the national championship last season and is undefeated this season? Among those 40 wins were 7 against ranked teams (including 4 such wins in true road games).

You think if Coach G had lost Michelle Van Gorp in '99 or Alana Beard in '02 or '03 or Lindsey Harding in '06 those teams would have made the Final Four? If so, I guess there's nothing more to say, but assuming you don't, why are you making judgments about the "kind of program" Duke is now? This whole discussion is ridiculous.

[uh_no]

No, here's the reality: after the UConn and Notre Dame games, the anti-P crowd was yammering about how we can't beat elite teams. Now some people are spouting the same nonsense after we lose a rivalry game against a team we'd beaten the previous seven times we've played them. Notwithstanding the normal internet message board reaction, most of the time when you lose a game, it's just a loss, it's not part of some larger pattern or downward spiral.

Here's another reality: the men's team and coach got a pass from the fan base when Kyrie Irving got injured; nobody around here freaked out too much when we lost four of the 13 games in which Ryan Kelly was injured last season. And yet, people seem to think the women's team should just cruise right on after losing a first-team All American PG for the season? Did you know that since the start of the 2012-13 season, Duke women have gone 40-2 in games in which Chelsea Grey has played? And the only two losses both came to a UConn team that won the national championship last season and is undefeated this season? Among those 40 wins were 7 against ranked teams (including 4 such wins in true road games).

You think if Coach G had lost Michelle Van Gorp in '99 or Alana Beard in '02 or '03 or Lindsey Harding in '06 those teams would have made the Final Four? If so, I guess there's nothing more to say, but assuming you don't, why are you making judgments about the "kind of program" Duke is now? This whole discussion is ridiculous.

cmon kedsy...you're better than that argument. you know darn well the parity in the women's game isn't half a lick what it is on the men's side. the comparison is simply not valid.

[Saratoga2]

No, here's the reality: after the UConn and Notre Dame games, the anti-P crowd was yammering about how we can't beat elite teams. Now some people are spouting the same nonsense after we lose a rivalry game against a team we'd beaten the previous seven times we've played them. Notwithstanding the normal internet message board reaction, most of the time when you lose a game, it's just a loss, it's not part of some larger pattern or downward spiral.

Here's another reality: the men's team and coach got a pass from the fan base when Kyrie Irving got injured; nobody around here freaked out too much when we lost four of the 13 games in which Ryan Kelly was injured last season. And yet, people seem to think the women's team should just cruise right on after losing a first-team All American PG for the season? Did you know that since the start of the 2012-13 season, Duke women have gone 40-2 in games in which Chelsea Grey has played? And the only two losses both came to a UConn team that won the national championship last season and is undefeated this season? Among those 40 wins were 7 against ranked teams (including 4 such wins in true road games).

You think if Coach G had lost Michelle Van Gorp in '99 or Alana Beard in '02 or '03 or Lindsey Harding in '06 those teams would have made the Final Four? If so, I guess there's nothing more to say, but assuming you don't, why are you making judgments about the "kind of program" Duke is now? This whole discussion is ridiculous.

I don't see the discussion as ridiculous at all. Coach P has done a good job of recruiting but the points being made about player development and team direction seem to be valid to me. What can coach P do to improve the team performance going forward? Surely reduce sloppy play and lack of competitiveness against the better teams indicates there is room for improvement. Certainly last night wasn't encouraging. Yes, the injuries are a factor but it seems to be more than that.

[Kedsy]

cmon kedsy...you're better than that argument. you know darn well the parity in the women's game isn't half a lick what it is on the men's side. the comparison is simply not valid.

What does that have to do with fan reaction? Also, is the women's game so lacking in parity that any team losing its best player wouldn't have trouble beating "elite" competition? Tell me, do you think G's Duke teams would have made the Final Four without Van Gorp or Beard or Harding? Do you think UConn would be undefeated right now without Breanna Stewart?

[GGLC]

I would like to see some semblance of an effective offensive and defensive gameplan when we play good teams, including in-game adjustments as necessary. I don't know why this is such a terrible thing to ask for out of a supposedly elite coach.

[Kedsy]

I would like to see some semblance of an effective offensive and defensive gameplan when we play good teams, including in-game adjustments as necessary. I don't know why this is such a terrible thing to ask for out of a supposedly elite coach.

So far this season, Duke has beaten five nationally ranked teams (including, at the time, #5 and #9), and four of those wins were on the road. Were those not good teams? Did you not see "some semblance of an effective offensive and defensive gameplan" in those games?

[GGLC]

I also don't think the way that P goes out of her way to blame her players for the loss in the postgame conference is particularly confidence-inspiring.

Your mileage may vary.

[GGLC]

So far this season, Duke has beaten five nationally ranked teams (including, at the time, #5 and #9), and four of those wins were on the road. Were those not good teams? Did you not see "some semblance of an effective offensive and defensive gameplan" in those games?

I watched last night. I didn't watch the other games. Did you see some semblance of an effective offensive and defensive gameplan last night? Or did you see us trying the same thing over and over again without adjusting when it was demonstrably not working?

[Kedsy]

I watched last night. I didn't watch the other games. Did you see some semblance of an effective offensive and defensive gameplan last night? Or did you see us trying the same thing over and over again without adjusting when it was demonstrably not working?

Maybe you ought to watch the games before declaring what you'd "like to see."

[jv001]

I know that Coach P is a very good recruiter and has brought some great players to Duke. But it seems something is missing when it comes to the offense Duke plays. Way too many turnovers and missed layups. The offense just doesn't seem to run smooth. Getting rid of Coach P isn't the answer, but maybe hiring an assistant that has a good offensive mind would help. But Coach P would have to trust the assistant and let them have a say in how the offense is run. Coach P has been a good defensive coach and usually a good defense wins games, but it takes both to win the big games. I've watched DWB and it's hard to watch. Like I said way too many turnovers, missed layups and an offense that looks out of kilter. GoDuke!

[SirBlueDevil]

Morning Blue Devil Nation;

My take on last nights disappointing loss to the lady heels is that i've got a major headache this morning due to my late night over drinking and screaming at the tv as i came to the realization our girls were in fact going to lose, we simply couldn't get in front them once we either tied the game or came within two or three points.

Oh well the game is over and i'll have to take solace in knowing that we did beat them the last 7 meetings between our match ups, probability states they were due for a win eventually. I hate that it came on our court and can only imagine how energized they'll be when we visit their court at the end of this regular season.

Go Duke Blue!

[GGLC]

Maybe you ought to watch the games before declaring what you'd "like to see."

Thanks for not answering the question.

[GGLC]

“I think that defense is something that this team generally wants other people to do,” coach Joanne P. McCallie said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/deshields-leads-no-17-unc-past-no-3-duke-89-78/2014/02/10/aa6c853e-92c1-11e3-b3f7-f5107432ca45_story.html

Doesn't she know how many ranked teams we've beaten?

[Kedsy]

Thanks for not answering the question.

OK, here you go. I thought we had a reasonable offensive gameplan -- pound it in to Elizabeth, who they couldn't guard and if they doubled down on her take some opportunistic threes. I thought the team executed that gameplan reasonably well, Elizabeth got a career-high 28 points and we shot 6 for 12 from three. I thought we had a reasonable defensive gameplan -- pack it in and dare UNC to shoot from the outside. UNC averages something like 5 or 6 three-attempts per game so the plan made sense. No way to predict they'd take 29 threes and make 40%+ of them.

I assume during the game, Coach P instructed her team to stop McDaniel and especially DeShields, who was killing us. The players weren't able to do it, in large part because our best perimeter defender was on the bench in street clothes.

That said, I'm not sure you should be so snarky after you announce in no uncertain terms what the team/coach does or doesn't do when you don't even watch the games.

[burnspbesq]

When we choose to defend, we win. When we choose not to defend, we're in trouble.

Duke is 21-0 in games where the opponent scores less than 80, and 1-3 in games when the opponent scores 80 or more.

And I don't think P's post game comment about defense being something the players hope somebody else will take care of is off base at all, although I don't think it applies to every player on a continuing basis and didn't apply to every player last night.

In my view, based on watching every minute of every game that has been on TV or internet this season, the primary offender on the defensive end is Alexis Jones. She doesn't fight to get around or over screens, and she's slow to recover and close out on shooters. Tricia is fundamentally sound but slow. Haley has the toolkit to be an elite defender, but the effort isn't always there; she did a fantastic job on McDaniel in the second half, but was mostly MIA in the first half. Chidom still has a lot to learn. Of the current rotation, only EWill, Richa, and Ka'lia bring it every night.

Defense is primarily about effort, and that means it's primarily a player-level issue, not a staff-level issue. If I were P and had my complete backcourt rotation available, I would bench Alexis until her commitment to defense improved, but that's not a viable option with Chelsea and Chloe both out.

I hope and expect that this will be a week of hard, nasty practices with an emphasis on defense. We'll know next Monday.

[burnspbesq]

I watched last night. I didn't watch the other games.

I'm sure you'll understand if I take that into consideration in evaluating whether you have anything to say that is worth taking seriously.

[Des Esseintes]

Maybe many of us are delusional in that we see the DWB program as an elite program with enough talent (injuries aside) to make it a Final 4 and someday win a NC; and the reality is that Duke just isn't that kind of program. However, the problem with that thinking is Duke has been to Final 4s (with less talent) and to NC games, so we know it can be done. I believe to think otherwise would be unreasonably lowering expectations and settling when the program is talented enough to do great things.


What? P has gotten a team into the national title game and taken Duke to three straight Elite Eights. Of course we are a program with the potential to go to Final Fours. These threads are just insane. I mean, do you think entrance into the Final Four is magical and that P has, what, been stripped of her magic admittance badge?

[Kedsy]

What? P has gotten a team into the national title game and taken Duke to three straight Elite Eights. Of course we are a program with the potential to go to Final Fours. These threads are just insane. I mean, do you think entrance into the Final Four is magical and that P has, what, been stripped of her magic admittance badge?

Actually, she's taken Duke to four straight Elite Eights. Just makes your point stronger, I know.

[Kedsy]

When we choose to defend, we win. When we choose not to defend, we're in trouble.

Duke is 21-0 in games where the opponent scores less than 80, and 1-3 in games when the opponent scores 80 or more.

And I don't think P's post game comment about defense being something the players hope somebody else will take care of is off base at all, although I don't think it applies to every player on a continuing basis and didn't apply to every player last night.

In my view, based on watching every minute of every game that has been on TV or internet this season, the primary offender on the defensive end is Alexis Jones. She doesn't fight to get around or over screens, and she's slow to recover and close out on shooters. Tricia is fundamentally sound but slow. Haley has the toolkit to be an elite defender, but the effort isn't always there; she did a fantastic job on McDaniel in the second half, but was mostly MIA in the first half. Chidom still has a lot to learn. Of the current rotation, only EWill, Richa, and Ka'lia bring it every night.

Defense is primarily about effort, and that means it's primarily a player-level issue, not a staff-level issue. If I were P and had my complete backcourt rotation available, I would bench Alexis until her commitment to defense improved, but that's not a viable option with Chelsea and Chloe both out.

I hope and expect that this will be a week of hard, nasty practices with an emphasis on defense. We'll know next Monday.

You may be right about this, but I'm not sure it's that simple. Chelsea was the linchpin of our defense, everyone else keyed off of her, and Chloe is a pretty good defender too. When they were anchoring our backcourt defense, Alexis could kind of sit back and use her quick hands to get steals. Now she needs to be the backcourt stopper and she hasn't entirely learned how yet.

For those who think our offense hasn't flowed very well in recent games, I'd argue it's the same issue. Chelsea was our starting PG and the offense flowed great earlier this year when she was running the show and Alexis could be the slashing combo guard. Chloe is a senior and while not nearly as dynamic as Chelsea, she's pretty steady. Alexis is mercurial, she's really quick and is very exciting to watch. But as the lead guard she also sometimes turns the ball over more than might be ideal and the offense doesn't flow as well with her at the helm. She's still young, so it's a learning process.

[DU82]

So far this season, Duke has beaten five nationally ranked teams (including, at the time, #5 and #9), and four of those wins were on the road. Were those not good teams? Did you not see "some semblance of an effective offensive and defensive gameplan" in those games?

My answer to the first part of your question is no, I do not believe I saw a semblance of an effective offensive gameplay in those games. We'll let me back up. I believe the gameplay was we'll give the ball to Chelsea, and let her figure out what to do. Having a Chelsea erases a lot of bad, poor or missing planning. But overall, other than waving her arm in a "Go! Go! Go," manner, I'm not sure I've seen a lot of direction on the offensive side over the X number of years since Coach P was hired (X because I don't remember exactly how many years it is.)

What I've seen is a lot of dribbling around the perimeter by our point guard, and unfortunately in spite of her obvious talent and eagerly, Alexis doesn't have the experience or game knowledge to direct the team. I attribute a lot of that to lack of direction of what she should be doing.

[GGLC]

Given the lack of parity in women's college basketball and Duke's continued success in recruiting top high school players, I feel confident in saying that Duke will be able to continue to post gaudy win totals in the regular season...whether or not those totals translate to the ultimate goal of playing for a national championship.

My question to the unmitigated Coach P supporters is this: under what circumstances do you (or would you) consider a Duke season to be an underachievement or a disappointment? As long as we compete for an ACC title, would you be thoroughly satisfied with the state of the program, even if we continue to post double-digit losses in the Elite Eight?

[CameronBlue]

Morning Blue Devil Nation;

My take on last nights disappointing loss to the lady heels is that i've got a major headache this morning due to my late night over drinking and screaming at the tv as i came to the realization our girls were in fact going to lose, we simply couldn't get in front them once we either tied the game or came within two or three points.

Oh well the game is over and i'll have to take solace in knowing that we did beat them the last 7 meetings between our match ups, probability states they were due for a win eventually. I hate that it came on our court and can only imagine how energized they'll be when we visit their court at the end of this regular season.

Go Duke Blue!

So it's come to this, DBR has become our new Facebook. Headin' out for my afternoon jog guys! Sweat out all the bad mojo from last night's game.

J/k

[Des Esseintes]

Given the lack of parity in women's college basketball and Duke's continued success in recruiting top high school players, I feel confident in saying that Duke will be able to continue to post gaudy win totals in the regular season...whether or not those totals translate to the ultimate goal of playing for a national championship.

My question to the unmitigated Coach P supporters is this: under what circumstances do you (or would you) consider a Duke season to be an underachievement or a disappointment? As long as we compete for an ACC title, would you be thoroughly satisfied with the state of the program, even if we continue to post double-digit losses in the Elite Eight?

Oh, please Lord! Deliver us from the Hell of making the Elite Eight every year! We DESERVE so much better!

[GGLC]

Oh, please Lord! Deliver us from the Hell of making the Elite Eight every year! We DESERVE so much better!

If you could turn the sarcasm/sanctimony meter down just a notch, you'll see that mine was a sincere question sincerely meant.

[Class of '94]

Oh, please Lord! Deliver us from the Hell of making the Elite Eight every year! We DESERVE so much better!

No, "We" don't......However, those ladies (and especially the Seniors) on the Duke team, who bust their butts each and every day of the season, do deserve better than losing in the Elite 8, and falling short of reaching a Final 4 and competing for a NC.

[Des Esseintes]

No, "We" don't......However, those ladies (and especially the Seniors) on the Duke team, who bust their butts each and every day of the season, do deserve better than losing in the Elite 8, and falling short of reaching a Final 4 and competing for a NC.

You know what? No, they don't. Every team has girls that invest. Every team has girls that play their hearts out. There are only four teams that play in the Final Four every year. It's not some crime against all the other teams not to make it. Players deserve respect and a fair playing field. They deserve support from their administration and fans. They do NOT deserve to win championships just because they tried hard. That goes to the team that plays the best.

You can try to make this into some sanctified crusade where you just want what's best for the players, but no one is going to believe you. You, as a fan, want a (bigger) winner. Stand behind that claim. Don't hide behind the players.

[Des Esseintes]

If you could turn the sarcasm/sanctimony meter down just a notch, you'll see that mine was a sincere question sincerely meant.

Serious answer: Yeah, I'm happy with the direction of the program. To my eyes, if you keep making the Elite Eight, you'll get to your Final Fours eventually. In a season in which our best player is injured, I'm just going to hope for the best. Asking for a ton more than that seems unreasonable.

[Kedsy]

Given the lack of parity in women's college basketball and Duke's continued success in recruiting top high school players, I feel confident in saying that Duke will be able to continue to post gaudy win totals in the regular season...whether or not those totals translate to the ultimate goal of playing for a national championship.

My question to the unmitigated Coach P supporters is this: under what circumstances do you (or would you) consider a Duke season to be an underachievement or a disappointment? As long as we compete for an ACC title, would you be thoroughly satisfied with the state of the program, even if we continue to post double-digit losses in the Elite Eight?


Serious answer: Yeah, I'm happy with the direction of the program. To my eyes, if you keep making the Elite Eight, you'll get to your Final Fours eventually. In a season in which our best player is injured, I'm just going to hope for the best. Asking for a ton more than that seems unreasonable.

What he said.

[Class of '94]

What? P has gotten a team into the national title game and taken Duke to three straight Elite Eights. Of course we are a program with the potential to go to Final Fours. These threads are just insane. I mean, do you think entrance into the Final Four is magical and that P has, what, been stripped of her magic admittance badge?

LOL!!!! I really didn't want to get back into this; but fine........Let's do this.....

Your magical admittance comment is about as asinine as me making the comment that Coach P's lone trip to the Final 4 with her Michigan State team was an anomaly based on what she's accomplished before and after that one Final 4 year; and that she was "lucky" to get to play in the NC game.

Coach P, despite her success, is far from reproach; and I think it's disturbing that apparently think she is. Coach K, with 4 NCs and 11 Final 4 appearances, can still have his coaching decisions questioned; and P has come no where near having the level of success K has achieved.

And while it does take some luck imo to reach the Final 4, it takes hard work, players that work well together, and good coaching. Injuries aside, there's obviously something missing from past teams that have not allowed it to reach a Final 4 (a feat that a lesser talented team like Louisville has done); and as I mentioned earlier, Duke had a healthy Chelsea for 2 years and they didn't make it to a Final 4; and what's going to happen next year when Chelsea is not on the team. Should we go ahead and assume that they're not going to be good enough to make it to the Final 4 and compete for a NC?

Coaches like Geno A, Pat S, and Tara V didn't always have the best or most talented team; but through their coaching willed their teams to Final 4s. They were consistently good at making adjustments to stay competitive. There are issues about the offense of this team that were existent in P's first team. And while the offense has improved, there are still stretches where this team doesn't score and there is no flow to the offense (with or without Chelsea); and until these types of things are fixed or changed, Duke will continue to struggle against the really good/elite teams.

I know you're going to come back with some snide remark about what I've said; and God bless you when you do. It still won't change the fact that Duke has issues and has had issues for a while; and some of that is contributed to the HC. That said, it doesn't make her a bad coach. Coach P is still the HC; and she should be for years to come.

[Des Esseintes]

LOL!!!! I really didn't want to get back into this; but fine........Let's do this.....

Your magical admittance comment is about as asinine as me making the comment that Coach P's lone trip to the Final 4 with her Michigan State team was an anomaly based on what she's accomplished before and after that one Final 4 year; and that she was "lucky" to get to play in the NC game.

Coach P, despite her success, is far from reproach; and I think it's disturbing that apparently think she is. Coach K, with 4 NCs and 11 Final 4 appearances, can still have his coaching decisions questioned; and P has come no where near having the level of success K has achieved.

And while it does take some luck imo to reach the Final 4, it takes hard work, players that work well together, and good coaching. Injuries aside, there's obviously something missing from past teams that have not allowed it to reach a Final 4 (a feat that a lesser talented team like Louisville has done); and as I mentioned earlier, Duke had a healthy Chelsea for 2 years and they didn't make it to a Final 4; and what's going to happen next year when Chelsea is not on the team. Should we go ahead and assume that they're not going to be good enough to make it to the Final 4 and compete for a NC?

Coaches like Geno A, Pat S, and Tara V didn't always have the best or most talented team; but through their coaching willed their teams to Final 4s. They were consistently good at making adjustments to stay competitive. There are issues about the offense of this team that were existent in P's first team. And while the offense has improved, there are still stretches where this team doesn't score and there is no flow to the offense (with or without Chelsea); and until these types of things are fixed or changed, Duke will continue to struggle against the really good/elite teams.

I know you're going to come back with some snide remark about what I've said; and God bless you when you do. It still won't change the fact that Duke has issues and has had issues for a while; and some of that is contributed to the HC. That said, it doesn't make her a bad coach. Coach P is still the HC; and she should be for years to come.

I apologize for suggesting magic has been what is keeping Duke from Final Fours under McCallie. I completely overlooked the telekinesis angle. McCallie used to be able to move women and basketballs with her mind, but she has apparently lost the discipline. You can win three games in the NCAA tournament with players and gameplans, which Duke bumbles its way to pretty much every year. To win that fourth game and make the FF, though, you really need vast mutant powers. There's really no other explanation, is there?

[Class of '94]

You know what? No, they don't. Every team has girls that invest. Every team has girls that play their hearts out. There are only four teams that play in the Final Four every year. It's not some crime against all the other teams not to make it. Players deserve respect and a fair playing field. They deserve support from their administration and fans. They do NOT deserve to win championships just because they tried hard. That goes to the team that plays the best.

You can try to make this into some sanctified crusade where you just want what's best for the players, but no one is going to believe you. You, as a fan, want a (bigger) winner. Stand behind that claim. Don't hide behind the players.

First of all, I don't care what you or anyone else believes; and you will not tell me what I think or believe. These girls do deserve it. It doesn't mean that they'll get to a Final 4 but they do deserve it. JJ never made it to a Final 4; and he busted his butt to get better and earn that opportunity. Unfortunately, it never happened; and I genuinely felt bad for him.

No one is entitled to a NC; but they deserve to be put into the best possible position by their coach to try and win a NC. I honestly don't believe P has done that every time. That being said, i don't think K has done that either; but I believe K has done it more than P though.

Second of all, it only appears that you care about being right (or at least arguing loudly with your words that you believe you're right); and are not interested in calm discussion.

Great job with continuing to make asinine comments; it appears that you are a master of it. I hate that it has come down to this where you appear to be attacking vehemently anyone that disagrees with you. It's funny that some posters will paint the "dissenters" as being unruly; but imo the Pro P posters have been the ones that have been the most unreasonable. I can keep going back and forth with you; and what would it really accomplish? You'll keep sounding like a jerk and I'll eventually stoop down to your level (although I don't know that I have the ability to go that low). I don't want to keep doing this. I made the mistake of continuing to read this thread; and broke my own personal rule that I would stop posting on this matter because it doesn't go anywhere and it only gets me ticked off when I read comments like yours. Have fun; I'm done, even if you don't believe it to be the case.

[uh_no]

I apologize for suggesting magic has been what is keeping Duke from Final Fours under McCallie. I completely overlooked the telekinesis angle. McCallie used to be able to move women and basketballs with her mind, but she has apparently lost the discipline. You can win three games in the NCAA tournament with players and gameplans, which Duke bumbles its way to pretty much every year. To win that fourth game and make the FF, though, you really need vast mutant powers. There's really no other explanation, is there?

the mincing words isn't helpful....especially since OP has a point....

in the 2001 big east championship, uconn lost 2001 big east POY, final 4 MOP, All american, and Honda award winner in basketball Shea Ralph....and yet went on to make the final four

ND lost arguably the best guard in the country to graduation, Skyler Diggins....and yet where are they this year?

[Des Esseintes]

the mincing words isn't helpful....especially since OP has a point....

in the 2001 big east championship, uconn lost 2001 big east POY, final 4 MOP, All american, and Honda award winner in basketball Shea Ralph....and yet went on to make the final four

ND lost arguably the best guard in the country to graduation, Skyler Diggins....and yet where are they this year?

I don't think anyone is saying the season's over. I would love for Duke to make the Final Four. Will they do it this year? I have no idea. But I know any team's ceiling is diminished when it loses its best player. Are you seriously arguing otherwise?

Also, if you're going to argue that Geno is a better coach than P, I won't argue with you. Geno is better than P. But I don't require my school to have the absolute best of everything always. P is a good coach, one with whom Duke can and has won big games.

[-jk]

Part of the fun of college ball (men's or women's) is that there are lots of ways to win, even if they all boil down to a few fundamentals: You need to recruit players with some level of athleticism and skills, and build on them. You need to teach teamwork - both how to attack and to defend. Hide your own weaknesses and exploit your opponents'. And keep everyone mentally engaged. Whether you're Chaney's old Temple teams or Westhead's Loyola Marymount, there are different ways to win.

P is a very good coach, and yet I still think it's fair to wish she were a better coach. Despite her asserted lack of desire to recruit, she routinely brings in very athletic players. I think she focuses more on athleticism than skills; lots of coaches do - you can overpower almost every team that way. I also think she doesn't manage the teamwork side of it as well as I might hope - her teams don't always adapt to the opponent well. (Of course that's said of K sometimes, too. Doesn't everyone want him to zone?)

In K we have someone who recruits skill over athleticism. He also teaches them to play together (we have improved on the early struggles on D this year). When he does get the skilled athletic players playing together, he can do awesome things. There's too much parity on the men's side for him to dominate as Geno can, though, and the one-and-done undercuts the teaching side.

With the singularly few dominating women's programs out there, Geno has his pick of recruits, and goes after a balance of skills and athleticism, teaches teamwork well, preps well, and so dominates - everyone.

K and Geno are truly exceptional coaches - veritable coaches for the ages - and to use them as a measuring stick for P is a fool's errand. (That said, I'd love to see some focus on skill - layups, anyone!? - and teamwork from P.)

-jk

[Kedsy]

Injuries aside, there's obviously something missing from past teams that have not allowed it to reach a Final 4 (a feat that a lesser talented team like Louisville has done); and as I mentioned earlier, Duke had a healthy Chelsea for 2 years and they didn't make it to a Final 4; and what's going to happen next year when Chelsea is not on the team. Should we go ahead and assume that they're not going to be good enough to make it to the Final 4 and compete for a NC?

This is where your argument goes off the rails in my opinion. You can't leave injuries aside, at least to key players. The team is structured a certain way, the offensive and defensive schemes are tailored to the personnel. If you lose a key player in the middle of the season, you can't always change that stuff on the fly.

Let's go through it year by year:

2008: Coach G leaves Coach P with a good team, but not a Final Four worthy one. Coach P makes the Sweet 16, about all we could have expected.

2009: One year later, Coach P has molded her team into a #1 seed. The NCAA made her play a true road game at her old school. Should we have won the game? Sure. Is it understandable that we lost without ascribing some sort of fatal flaw to Coach P? I sure think so.

2010: We get a #2 seed and lose in the Elite Eight by 3 to Baylor with Brittney Griner. You can't say we didn't have a chance or the coach is incapable of making the Final Four based on this game. We just fell three points short.

2011: A team with five freshmen in the rotation makes the Elite Eight and gets crushed by Connecticut. Live and learn.

2012: Really young team; top 6 in the rotation are freshmen or sophomores. Should have been top 7, but freshman Amber Henson, expected to play a major role, gets hurt and has to redshirt. Then starter Chloe Wells has to sit out for academic reasons. Then starter Richa Jackson tears her ACL in mid-February and is out for the year. A week before the NCAA tournament, national freshman of the year Elizabeth Williams is diagnosed with a stress fracture in her foot. She tries to play through it, but isn't the same player and can't play a lot of minutes.

How can you put these injuries "aside"? Duke played the NCAA tournament down two starters and with a third starter playing at half speed. Yet they still made the Elite Eight and lost by just 11 to a #1 seed. I think that's pretty darn good under the circumstances.

2013: Elizabeth Williams and Richa Jackson are still hurt at the beginning of the season. Amber Henson has another season-ending injury. 6'4" Freshman Katie Heckman also has a season-ending injury. In mid-February, first team All-American, ACC POY (and Duke's best and most important player) Chelsea Gray suffers a season-ending knee injury. The team still makes the Elite Eight and loses by just 12 to a #1 seed.

2014: Amber Henson still hobbled, Katie Heckman out for her career, freshman Kianna Holland has a pre-season injury and then transfers, expected contributor Rebecca Greenwell suffers a season-ending injury in pre-season, and then Chelsea Gray (still Duke's best and most important player) breaks her kneecap and is out for the rest of the season for the second straight year. Duke is currently 23-3 and getting excoriated by its own fans because we've failed to go undefeated.


Look, I get that injuries are part of the game and you have to play with the cards your dealt, and all that. And you should be able to deal with most of the pre-season injuries because the coaches can plan for the season without the redshirts. Similarly, next Fall when Chelsea, Tricia, Haley, Chloe, and Richa are gone, the coaching staff will plan for the season based on our returning players and a strong incoming class.

But if you don't believe mid-season injuries to stars and starters make it a lot harder to compete, then I don't understand what you could possibly be thinking. The fact that, despite the adversity, Duke has reached the Elite Eight four years in a row should, under the circumstances, be cause to praise how well Coach P and the players have done, not condemn them for not making a Final Four.

[Kedsy]

JJ never made it to a Final 4; and he busted his butt to get better and earn that opportunity. Unfortunately, it never happened; and I genuinely felt bad for him.

Actually, JJ Redick made the Final Four in 2004. So you can feel better now.

[summerwind03]

Serious answer: Yeah, I'm happy with the direction of the program. To my eyes, if you keep making the Elite Eight, you'll get to your Final Fours eventually. In a season in which our best player is injured, I'm just going to hope for the best. Asking for a ton more than that seems unreasonable.

Yes, this is where I stand too. I could wish for some more tact from Coach G in her tweets and her post-game references to opposing players. I'm curious as to why so many assistant coaches have left. But overall, I think she's done a good job, in a difficult environment.

[Kedsy]

ND lost arguably the best guard in the country to graduation, Skyler Diggins....and yet where are they this year?

As I said before, it's a lot easier to plan for a loss through graduation, or even a pre-season injury, than it is to deal with a mid-season injury.

And UConn may have made a Final Four without its best player 13 years ago (and then got clobbered in the semifinal game), but it was an amazing achievement, wasn't it? Not expected. If UConn had lost in the regional final, would you have thought Geno did a poor coaching job?

Despite all its injuries the past three years, Duke made the Elite Eight all three years. In my opinion that's also an amazing achievement, something to praise, not something to use as evidence that there's a fatal flaw with Coach P.

Also, you didn't answer my question from an earlier post: do you think Coach G would have made the Final Four in '99 without Van Gorp or in '02/'03 without Alana Beard or in '06 without Lindsey Harding? Do you think UConn would be undefeated right now if they were playing without Breanna Stewart?

[DU82]

Yes, this is where I stand too. I could wish for some more tact from Coach G in her tweets and her post-game references to opposing players. I'm curious as to why so many assistant coaches have left. But overall, I think she's done a good job, in a difficult environment.

Freudian slip? Coach G has tact, not sure Coach P has as much as needed, sometimes.

[Kedsy]

Freudian slip? Coach G has tact, not sure Coach P has as much as needed, sometimes.

Honest question: in March 2007, the day before Duke played Rutgers in the Sweet 16, do you think Coach G acted with tact in the way she dealt with her impending employment decision? They're all human, even the best of them.

[jv001]

Honest question: in March 2007, the day before Duke played Rutgers in the Sweet 16, do you think Coach G acted with tact in the way she dealt with her impending employment decision? They're all human, even the best of them.

We all need to remember this and consider Romans 3:23. Beat UNC! GoDuke!

[summerwind03]

Freudian slip? Coach G has tact, not sure Coach P has as much as needed, sometimes.

Ha! I do miss Coach G, even though I think Coach P has been fine!

[DU82]

Honest question: in March 2007, the day before Duke played Rutgers in the Sweet 16, do you think Coach G acted with tact in the way she dealt with her impending employment decision? They're all human, even the best of them.

I think perhaps the difference is that Twitter wasn't around for Coach G while she was here.

I don't recall public disclosures at the time, although it has been seven years (ah, that's the X I had in my previous post.) Obviously, the decision was pending, and I think that affected her concentration and preparation for the Rutgers game. (I missed that with a stomach bug, watched it in agony at home for multiple reasons!) Had the better team won that day, perhaps Coach G is still here and Don Imus still would be on his main radio show.

What I'm pretty sure I didn't hear was criticism about Lindsey missing free throws or other direct criticism of players, unlike some of Coach P's after-game comments. Singling out players negatively by coaches is not right. A quick search of game stories showed only a couple of comments by Coach G, both supportive of Lindsey and the team.

(Note in an earlier post in this thread, I criticized Alexis's decision making. My comment should have made clear that my criticism was directed more at the coaches and game preparation, primarily on offense.)

[burnspbesq]

On reflection, I have two beefs with the coaching staff.

(1) we learned three years ago that our 1-2-2 matchup zone benefits greatly from size at the top. Even when the size at the top is in the form of Allison Vernerey, the player for whom the term "modestly talented" was invented, it greatly disrupts the offense's ability to move the ball from one side of the floor to the other quickly. This year we have three 6'4" players available to play at the top of the zone, and I can't recall even one possession all year where any of them were deployed at that spot.

(2) after one full season and 2/3 of another in the program, Alexis Jones should have the beginning of some rudimentary idea how to stop the ball in defensive transition. She continues to be La Matadora.

[burnspbesq]

(Note in an earlier post in this thread, I criticized Alexis's decision making. My comment should have made clear that my criticism was directed more at the coaches and game preparation, primarily on offense.)

That's downright bizarre. A point guard's poor decision-making in the context of running an offense she appears to know and understand is the staff's fault? None of the coaches got over-excited, over-penetrated, tried to throw a home-run-ball pass to the corner under duress and put it in Row F last night. Only one person did that.

[DU82]

That's downright bizarre. A point guard's poor decision-making in the context of running an offense she appears to know and understand is the staff's fault? None of the coaches got over-excited, over-penetrated, tried to throw a home-run-ball pass to the corner under duress and put it in Row F last night. Only one person did that.

A lot of Alexis's problems at the point is her decision making. But my primary point is that without a decent offensive game plan, she dribbles the ball at the top of the key, then tries an impossible pass or takes a poor jump shot. I'm not sure she knows what the context of the offense is right now. Do you see a decent plan in the half court? I don't. (Sorry I didn't word that clearer; you were correct in that it sounded bizarre in re-reading it..)

And you're right. Alexis was the only one with a pass to row F. Elizabeth's pass to Tricia late in the game was put in row G or H. (I'm joking, not disagreeing with you about trying to make the tough pass.)

We discussed the relatively poor passing we see at times in the women's game, with a lot of interior steals. We were wondering if they see these passes in the men's game, or in the pros, and try to do the same thing, but don't have the full physical ability to make it happen. Chelsea would do the same things at times, but she was more able to make these passes possible. A few times last night, I was yelling at Alexis (from Row N, so she probably didn't hear me :o) to stop trying to make the tough play, just make a decent one.

I see the primary strengths of Coach P and her program are:

Great recruiting (although more so in the women's game, the Duke education opportunities play a great deal in that; witness the story last week about the medical center "shadowing" that Elizabeth, Haley and Jenna do)
The players are in good shape, unlike other programs (UConn's players in particular are not in top-of-the-line physical shape compared to Duke's)
For the most part, the team doesn't lose to teams they shouldn't lose to. Last night was a particular exception. (Losing on the road to a Miami or FSU in past years isn't really an upset.)


I see the primary weaknesses of Coach P as:

Not winning against the top teams, or more specifically not winning in an upset. There's a pretty clear break between the top teams (UConn, ND, Stanford) and Duke.
Poor or minimal planning on offense, especially in the half court. If the break doesn't work, there doesn't seem any clear idea of what to do on offense.
Lack of development of many players. There's few players that have shown clear improvement, but there's a lot more that have shown limited improvement (less that would be expected moving from a freshman to a senior) or have regressed. Certainly there's Jasmine, Tricia, Krystal in her senior year; on the other hand you have Abby, Alison and I think Elizabeth. Injuries play a part, especially for the latter two.)
Questionable public or personal relations, both in post game comments, and in what appears to be dealing with assistant coaches. (The number of ACs that have moved to other programs for no apparent benefit. If it was just one, who also left a rival school for a D3 job, would tell me it was probably the AC. Three others, then there's probably fire with the smoke. I don't know, I don't have inside information other than what I see at games.)


And of course, her biggest sin: She's not Coach G.

Coach P has a tough job, especially in that she doesn't have to live up to one coach's reputation, she has to deal with two, Coach K and Coach G. There's few coaches anywhere that can live up to that.

If my complaints were limited to the lack of offensive "smoothness" it would be one thing, but the public relations and especially the post-game comments about specific players, strange tweets, and assistant coaches leaving, worry me about the direction of the program. There were some fans seven years ago, when she was hired, that expressed concerns about her personality. I had attributed many of them to not wanting anybody but Coach G, and I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. (Coach G left, she's not coming back, let's support the person who wants to be here.) Now, I'm wondering if they were right from the start.

Could it be we're spoiled, and don't think losing in the Elite Eight is acceptable. Perhaps, but we've seen a lot better from the program. I said 25 years or so ago that Steve Spurrier ruined the Duke football program for future coaches. They couldn't get by with saying it was impossible to win at Duke anymore. Four coaches couldn't get by with that. (Fortunately the fifth seems to be doing OK.)

I know you're one of the top WBB followers here, I'd love to read your assessment of the program at this point.

[msdukie]

I would like to see some semblance of an effective offensive and defensive gameplan when we play good teams, including in-game adjustments as necessary. I don't know why this is such a terrible thing to ask for out of a supposedly elite coach.

And this is the most concise and accurate dissection of the key problem.

[uh_no]

The players are in good shape, unlike other programs (UConn's players in particular are not in top-of-the-line physical shape compared to Duke's)

hate to nit-pik an otherwise phenomenal post, but uconn would routinely run duke up and down the floor, often beating duke 3 or 4 vs 1 in transition...leading to huge amounts of points on the break....so I'm not sure what your justification for that line is....but I'm not sure I buy it.

Duke's players are always, as you say, in good shape....but pretending they wipe the floor with uconn in "in-shapeness" is out of touch with reality.

[DU82]

hate to nit-pik an otherwise phenomenal post, but uconn would routinely run duke up and down the floor, often beating duke 3 or 4 vs 1 in transition...leading to huge amounts of points on the break....so I'm not sure what your justification for that line is....but I'm not sure I buy it.

Duke's players are always, as you say, in good shape....but pretending they wipe the floor with uconn in "in-shapeness" is out of touch with reality.

I never said that Duke would "wipe the floor" with UConn. But are you going to tell me Dolson or Mosqueda-Lewis are in top shape? I said that the Duke players were in great shape, compared to others, including specifically UConn. The fast breaks to me come from anticipation and expectation of making plays (rebounds and outlet passes in particular) not that they really blew by the Duke players. (or many other teams, of course.)

Second, I first heard this comment from my niece, who is in a position to comment on this.

[uh_no]

I never said that Duke would "wipe the floor" with UConn. But are you going to tell me Dolson or Mosqueda-Lewis are in top shape? I said that the Duke players were in great shape, compared to others, including specifically UConn. The fast breaks to me come from anticipation and expectation of making plays (rebounds and outlet passes in particular) not that they really blew by the Duke players. (or many other teams, of course.)

Second, I first heard this comment from my niece, who is in a position to comment on this.

In terms of dolson, absolutely. THe amount she has remade her body in 4 years of college has been incredible. Take a look at the pictorial evidence:

young dolson:
3897

current dolson: (apologies, for some reason the board doesn't like the link...)
http://www.concordmonitor.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls%3FSTREAMOID%3D_ msXGIBMy3_wrIi9ADFnI8%24daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtfaouVk VP%24104UE7xNIFWlWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZ mXF%249l%244uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h 8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-%26CONTENTTYPE%3Dimage/jpeg

for a 6'5 center to look like THAT?

she gets up and down the floor at least as well as any other person her size in the country, and watching her play, she is in incredible shape.

I think watching KML completely lose her defender multiple times while playing against duke a couple months ago would be enough to demonstrate her shape.

Nothing against your niece, but the my (quite extensive in uconn's case) observation doesn't jibe with her assertion

[DU82]

In terms of dolson, absolutely. THe amount she has remade her body in 4 years of college has been incredible. Take a look at the pictorial evidence:

young dolson:
3897

current dolson: (apologies, for some reason the board doesn't like the link...)
http://www.concordmonitor.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls%3FSTREAMOID%3D_ msXGIBMy3_wrIi9ADFnI8%24daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtfaouVk VP%24104UE7xNIFWlWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZ mXF%249l%244uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h 8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-%26CONTENTTYPE%3Dimage/jpeg

for a 6'5 center to look like THAT?

she gets up and down the floor at least as well as any other person her size in the country, and watching her play, she is in incredible shape.

I think watching KML completely lose her defender multiple times while playing against duke a couple months ago would be enough to demonstrate her shape.

Nothing against your niece, but the my (quite extensive in uconn's case) observation doesn't jibe with her assertion

Dolson's transformation is impressive. Tricia's done similar work. Bad example in terms of what she's done.

I had pulled up the box score from the Dec game, and noted that Duke actually had more fast beak points,c10 to 8. UConn had a lot more second chance points. So it wasn't necessarily their team speed. It was making plays and knowing from practice and play where their teammates were going to be on the court. (something they do to just about every team, not just Duke. My original comment put this in the wrong place, implying that UConn was out of shape compared to most teams.)

And I'm guessing my niece has seen UConn up close more often recently than you have. (got to defend her! :) )

And Mosqueda-Lewis was open time after time because we lost her on defense, rather than her quickness and being in shape. But, to be fair to her as well, she was coming off an injury.

Let's agree that one of Duke's strengths is their general physical fitness and

[throatybeard]

These girls do deserve it. It doesn't mean that they'll get to a Final 4 but they do deserve it. JJ never made it to a Final 4; and he busted his butt to get better and earn that opportunity. Unfortunately, it never happened; and I genuinely felt bad for him.

Ignoring the fact that JJ did make it to a FF, what does these girls do deserve it even mean? Just about everybody with a scholarship in D1 has busted their butts to get where they are. Why do the Duke women deserve that more than any other squad of butt-busters?

[captmojo]

For the record, I support Coach P and all the players. Everyone is subject to mistakes. This goes from the top to the bottom. You lost this game. So what? Get over it. The other bunch played well enough to overcome our favorites. (I just threw up a little bit)
You guys shouldn't make this a time to point to a forum referendum on the coach. I'd ask the mods to shut this one down. It has reached a point of nothing positive to be further added.
Tip your hat and just wish our bunch the best.
GTHC,GTH!

[jv001]

For the record, I support Coach P and all the players. Everyone is subject to mistakes. This goes from the top to the bottom. You lost this game. So what? Get over it. The other bunch played well enough to overcome our favorites. (I just threw up a little bit)
You guys shouldn't make this a time to point to a forum referendum on the coach. I'd ask the mods to shut this one down. It has reached a point of nothing positive to be further added.
Tip your hat and just wish our bunch the best.
GTHC,GTH!

Yeh, we need to stick together for tonight's game. We need all the mojo we can muster. Beat the evil empire, the low lifes, the ones going to hell, and oh yeh, the cheaters. GoDuke!