Marcus Smart shoves Texas Tech fan, supsended three games

[vick]

Anyone else watching the Texas Tech-Oklahoma State game? Up 2, with less than 10 seconds on the clock, Texas Tech on a breakaway and Smart commits a hard (but clean) foul on the guy trying to lay it in. He winds up in the stands, and as he's getting up, goes up to and shoves a fan, rather dubiously being described as "elderly" by some. Somewhat amazingly to me, he wasn't ejected, not that it would have mattered, but personally I'll be surprised if that doesn't result in a suspension. A little sad to watch a guy this talented not be able to keep his head.

[FerryFor50]

Anyone else watching the Texas Tech-Oklahoma State game? Up 2, with less than 10 seconds on the clock, Texas Tech on a breakaway and Smart commits a hard (but clean) foul on the guy trying to lay it in. He winds up in the stands, and as he's getting up, goes up to and shoves a fan, rather dubiously being described as "elderly" by some. Somewhat amazingly to me, he wasn't ejected, not that it would have mattered, but personally I'll be surprised if that doesn't result in a suspension. A little sad to watch a guy this talented not be able to keep his head.

He's had several incidents where he's lost his cool. Looking more and more like a head case. Maybe a Ron Artest clone...

[Duvall]

He's had several incidents where he's lost his cool. Looking more and more like a head case. Maybe a Ron Artest clone...

Nah. Artest could shoot.

[luburch]

I would like to know what the man said to him. Not that it makes his behavior acceptable, but just out of curiousty.

[Furniture]

Smart is a Thug.

[luburch]

Smart is a Thug.

You've met him?

[Dukehky]

Smart is a Thug.

I would like to direct you to Richard Sherman's comments on the term thug, because I think that they're very accurate.

I don't know what the fan said. Who cares if he kicked a chair being frustrated? Pushing a fan is bad, really bad, no matter what was said. There is one thing this fan could have said, which I'm sure we all know what that is, which would make this border-line understandable. He's going to get suspended, his draft stock will drop, so no matter what he's going to be punished far more than that fan. Which is regrettable because Marcus Smart is 20 years old, and that fan was some older guy. Both of whom should know better.

I also hope that Artest comment was a joke. That dude has certifiable mental problems, Smart just needs to learn to keep his composure, there's a very distinct difference.

[Black Mambo]

Smart is a Thug.

In an attempt to not break one of the Forum's rule about attacking another poster, I will not make any comments against your personhood Furniture. However, I believe it is well within fair play to say that your COMMENT is ignorant, asinine, and adds absolutely nothing to this discourse.

There is absolutely nothing that excuses Smart's response. He is an individual who is afforded an opportunity to play a wonderful game and represent a good school in an opponent's facility. He knows there will be negative comments, some of which may cross the line of decency. Not even considering the ramifications on his future NBA career, he should have responded in a more appropriate and clear minded manner.

Having said that, and admitting that I am not a lip reader, there are only so many things that could be said within the course of a short time to receive the response that Smart gave to that fan. I dunno, maybe Smart is a hothead, and was mad his team was about to lose, and the guy said "I hate your orange jerseys", and Smart just lost it because he really likes orange. But i doubt that...

As it is not prudent to pass inappropriate judgement on the nature of Smart's personhood (e.g. Smart is a thug) without all of the facts, I will also not go so far as to jump to a conclusion as to the nature of the fan's comment (or the fan's personhood). However, knowing the type of society we live in, and the many hot buttons issues that still surround us, let us not be quick to take one side in this manner and absolve the side of any wrong doing.

[westwall]

Who cares if he kicked a chair being frustrated? Pushing a fan is bad, really bad, no matter what was said. .

And Smart's action caught a lot of negative attention on late-night ESPN.

[mr. synellinden]

This is the guy he shoved: http://today.ttu.edu/2010/03/texas-tech-basketball-fan-extraordinaire/

[Olympic Fan]

This is the guy he shoved: http://today.ttu.edu/2010/03/texas-tech-basketball-fan-extraordinaire/

Definitely the same guy.

He might be a super fan, but he doesn't have a super memory. He says he was in North Carolina when Darvin Ham shattered the backboard -- that was AGAINST North Carolina, but the game was played in the Richmond Coliseum (NCAA second round game in 1996).

Saw Saturday night's affair on ESPN (they showed almost nothing else) ... I don't want to prejudge the incident.

Smart was clearly wrong to shove the fan -- no matter what was said. On the other hand, a racial slur or something like could be a mitigating factor (not an excuse).

But I would like to learn more -- what Smart thought he heard, what the fan said he said and what the people around him heard. I still remember Makhtar Ndiaye claiming that a Utah player used the n-word ... then later admitting that he lied. Didn't Robbie Alomar always claim that he spit on the ump in response to a racial slur?

I want to repeat ... even if the fan said the worst thing possible (whatever that might be), that does not excuse Smart reacting with violence. But it would make it more understandable.

It's funny, I was flipping back and forth between ESPN's coverage and the HBO debut of the movie "42" ... whatever Smart heard, I doubt it was anything like Ben Chapman spewed at Jackie.

[brevity]

This is the guy he shoved: http://today.ttu.edu/2010/03/texas-tech-basketball-fan-extraordinaire/

I was just about to post the same link. If Shove Bait going is to take credit for Texas Tech's victory, then he has forfeited his anonymity, as well as that of his wife, Pointy McPointerson. A quick web search reveals their probable address in Waco. A more reckless web search reveals a guy with the same name and age range living 2 hours east, in Palestine. Good luck, folks.

[Olympic Fan]

There are tweets out there that contradict each other.

OSU's radio guy tweeted that Smart claimed the fan used the N-word.

But the fan himself, while admitting "I said something I shouldn't have said," denies that he used the n-word of a vulgarity.

There were some photographers there (they were the ones helping Smart up). I want to hear what they heard.

[mr. synellinden]

Twitter reports include the fan texting someone that he said something he shouldn't have said but not vulgar or the n-word. There are also reports that he said to Smart, "go back to Africa," which would be consistent with his texts.

But Smart apparently told his coaches, that he did hear the n-word. Welcome to your Sunday news story.

[CBecker]

Smart is a Thug.

Smart has always been noted as a high character guy. To me it seems like he's been struggling a lot lately, his team is losing, he's had to deal with all the flopping allegations which he didn't appear to enjoy, and has been showing visible signs of frustration for quite some time, and this event prompted it to all boil over. Doesn't excuse what he did of course, I just won't go as far as saying he's a bad person or anything.

[DBFAN]

The one thing that bothers me here is this: that joint was pretty loud at that moment, yet somehow Marcus Smart with his back turned, knew exactly who said something, and knew exactly what they said. Really??also listening to ESPN and I think it was Goodman who said that Smart had become frustrated that he wasn't getting the calls that others were getting. People were allowed to play him more physical, which, in his defense, I understand. I have said several times about the new rules allowing less "talented" teams be much more physical. The prob tho, is why does he think he's the only one, but I digress.

I do think it's extremely strange that everybody wants to wait to see.....See What? Everybody is looking for an excuse for Marcus, but nobody is looking for an excuse for the fan. That to me is just strange but any whose, I'm off my soapbox now

[DBFAN]

Could you imagine what would have happened if JJ had reacted like that to so,e of the things that were said to him. Honestly I would imagine ESPN would have roasted him for not being able to control his emotions. All while just talking about how rowdy the fans were and downplaying their behavior, you know, like they do with Maryland.

[doctorhook]

Could you imagine what would have happened if JJ had reacted like that to so,e of the things that were said to him. Honestly I would imagine ESPN would have roasted him for not being able to control his emotions. All while just talking about how rowdy the fans were and downplaying their behavior, you know, like they do with Maryland.

I had the same thought and regardless of what remark, racial or otherwise, JJ would probably have been ejected and still in prison.

[oldnavy]

Kid's frustrated, understood.... but he has to be "smart" (pun intended)... people will just get more aggressive if he shows that it bugs him.

It will only be worse in the NBA... so I hope Smart gets this under control or it may plague him for years...

Come on Marcus, just grin when the idiots say idiotic stuff... kill them with kindness and they will move on to someone who they can get too... easier to say than do, however!

[18258]

In an attempt to not break one of the Forum's rule about attacking another poster, I will not make any comments against your personhood Furniture. However, I believe it is well within fair play to say that your COMMENT is ignorant, asinine, and adds absolutely nothing to this discourse.

There is absolutely nothing that excuses Smart's response. He is an individual who is afforded an opportunity to play a wonderful game and represent a good school in an opponent's facility. He knows there will be negative comments, some of which may cross the line of decency. Not even considering the ramifications on his future NBA career, he should have responded in a more appropriate and clear minded manner.

Having said that, and admitting that I am not a lip reader, there are only so many things that could be said within the course of a short time to receive the response that Smart gave to that fan. I dunno, maybe Smart is a hothead, and was mad his team was about to lose, and the guy said "I hate your orange jerseys", and Smart just lost it because he really likes orange. But i doubt that...

As it is not prudent to pass inappropriate judgement on the nature of Smart's personhood (e.g. Smart is a thug) without all of the facts, I will also not go so far as to jump to a conclusion as to the nature of the fan's comment (or the fan's personhood). However, knowing the type of society we live in, and the many hot buttons issues that still surround us, let us not be quick to take one side in this manner and absolve the side of any wrong doing.

He acted like a thug in that instance, though

[theAlaskanBear]

The one thing that bothers me here is this: that joint was pretty loud at that moment, yet somehow Marcus Smart with his back turned, knew exactly who said something, and knew exactly what they said. Really??also listening to ESPN and I think it was Goodman who said that Smart had become frustrated that he wasn't getting the calls that others were getting. People were allowed to play him more physical, which, in his defense, I understand. I have said several times about the new rules allowing less "talented" teams be much more physical. The prob tho, is why does he think he's the only one, but I digress.

I do think it's extremely strange that everybody wants to wait to see.....See What? Everybody is looking for an excuse for Marcus, but nobody is looking for an excuse for the fan. That to me is just strange but any whose, I'm off my soapbox now

I don't think it's strange to withhold judgement. Obviously, Smart made a mistake, and he will get punished for it. Once he turned around to face the crowd...he lost the battle.

But I am sick of fans who think anything goes, who think that they can be a rancid and abusive human because they bought a ticket. I will admit a certain amount of joy at the shock on the faces of the women flanking the man that there might be a repercussion to something they say.

Can you look at this photo and tell me you can't understand why Smart did what he did?

3873

[77devil]

The OSU coaching staff went AWOL at the end of the game. Smart did himself no favors by continuing to argue with anyone within shouting distance while the TV cameras were on him. The coaching staff should have intervened and made him cool it or quickly escorted him off the floor.

The best thing Smart can do now if he wants to begin to rehabilitate his reputation is apologize unequivocally before the league makes an announcement, and behave under control for the rest of the season.

[theAlaskanBear]

He acted like a thug in that instance, though

No. He acted like a human. Someone with emotions and passion. The thugs are the fans hurling abuse at a kid who is playing his heart out in a close, tense game.

[DukeDevil]

I don't think it's strange to withhold judgement. Obviously, Smart made a mistake, and he will get punished for it. Once he turned around to face the crowd...he lost the battle.

But I am sick of fans who think anything goes, who think that they can be a rancid and abusive human because they bought a ticket. I will admit a certain amount of joy at the shock on the faces of the women flanking the man that there might be a repercussion to something they say.

Can you look at this photo and tell me you can't understand why Smart did what he did?

3873

I am really glad you wrote all this. I won't lie, after the Richard Sherman incident...I was like...wow....that was...interesting. He then came back with a very well thought out couple of interviews and responses and I realized "this is a fairly intelligent guy who made a huge play and is a fierce competitor and, yes he sort of went crazy, but let's be honest, he was extremely pumped up at the time." The comments about the use of the word "thug" afterward really make me shy away from use of that word except in a very extreme case.

I'm not sure what happened with Smart, but watching the video it's clear he was being abused by the fans. Does that give him license to shove? Of course not. Is he a young player who was caught up in the emotions of a close game and made a mistake? Most likely. I'll tell you who ISN'T young and should know better, those fans in the front row who got in his grill. I especially agree with your comment about people feeling they can say what they want because they paid for a ticket. I feel like people sitting courtside have an unspoken responsibility to be extra civil, like the buffer zone behind the visiting team's guests in cameron. It's just uncalled for. If a grown adult started yelling and making fun of (I'm just assuming here, I'll completely admit I have no idea what was being said) a teen in public, there would be a very different response to the whole situation.

All that being said, who knows what exactly went down. Perhaps they were energetically encouraging him and congratulating him on a game well played, and he was pulling a Quinn Cook shove of excitement back to them. Though I doubt it.

[Faison1]

My faith in humanity will be restored only if this so-called "Super fan" comes out and apologizes for what he said.

Yes, I agree it's unacceptable for Marcus to go into the stands, but c'mon.....the fan and the women who flank him are in their 50's. Do they really get off on getting into a college kids head by saying some low class junk? Get a life....actually, after reading the articles about the "Super fan", I guess he has no life.

Not only should the "Super Fan" say something, but Texas Tech should address the issue as well. Can you imagine what would happen if this played out in CIS?

As an aside, I have often wondered what Coach K hears when he paces the sidelines in an opposing gym. It must be insane.

[mpj96]

Can you look at this photo and tell me you can't understand why Smart did what he did?

3873

Sure. The kid appears to have a real problem with his temper overriding his better judgment. That's easy to understand.

Next question: Was turning around to engage and then push an opposing fan who offered no threat of physical harm excusable? Absolutely not.

Smart appears to need counseling to help him control his temper the same way Kyrie needed physical therapy to heal his toe. Hope he gets it.

[oldnavy]

He acted like a thug in that instance, though

No, he reacted like a teenaged boy who is visibly frustrated and was provoked by someone who is old enough to know better.

The term "thug" carries connotations that don't apply to this instance IMO.

On the surface, it appears that the older fan was the one who instigated the whole thing, and that is sort of sad that a fella of that age would feel the need to provoke a kid half his age.

Message to "super fan"... get a life.

Message to Smart, ignore the idiots and keep your cool.

Smart will probably get suspended, and that is OK, he needs to know that he can't react like he did.

It's a shame but the "super fan" will probably just get pats on his back from his buddies...

[mpj96]

I feel like people sitting courtside have an unspoken responsibility to be extra civil, like the buffer zone behind the visiting team's guests in cameron. It's just uncalled for.

You've noticed what the rest of CIS court side looks like, right? It has not become famous due to the extra civility of those in attendance.

[Bob Green]

The Devils in the details, which are not yet available:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFUj4YCKMyM

It appears the fan says, "Sorry about that." But what isn't available is what was said to make Smart turn into the crowd in the first place. What was the fan apologizing about? As the commentator states, Smart's behavior was disgusting.

[bbosbbos]

"Get a life" is nonsense. I do not like that saying at all. People have the right to choose their own life style. They enjoy and are happy.

[Furniture]

My Thug comment was based on not only what he did when he pushed the fan but his continuous ranting afterwards and the fact that he seemed to want to go back over after the game to continue the argument with the fan. He had to be restrained and pushed off the court.
Now, It did not cross my mind that racial abuse could be involved and if it was then that is very sad, totally unacceptable and would make mr Smarts actions somewhat understandable.

[Chicago 1995]

No. He acted like a human. Someone with emotions and passion. The thugs are the fans hurling abuse at a kid who is playing his heart out in a close, tense game.

Agreed. Smart made a mistake. Doesn't make him lacking in character. Makes him human.

There's a video of this winner from Tech flipping off and cursing out a dude from A&M three years ago.

Smart shouldn't have pushed him. He should be suspended. And that "super fan" shouldn't be in an arena ever again.

[dyedwab]

My Thug comment was based on not only what he did when he pushed the fan but his continuous ranting afterwards and the fact that he seemed to want to go back over after the game to continue the argument with the fan. He had to be restrained and pushed off the court.
Now, It did not cross my mind that racial abuse could be involved and if it was then that is very sad, totally unacceptable and would make mr Smarts actions somewhat understandable.

What Smart did was incredibly stupid and he will undoubtedly be punished for it. He will get suspended, and I'm sure his draft stock will fall.

That said, the idea that is was racial abuse was literally the first thing that crossed my mind.

And regarding the use of the word "thug". On the same weekend that Richard Sherman went of on his rant, the Calgary Flames and the Vancouver Canucks engaged in an epic hockey brawl at the start of a game, a brawl that was clearly the intended result of some of the coaches' lineup decisions. Yet the word "thug" was not as easily thrown around as it was against Sherman.

Speak personally, it has made me think far more closely about how and when I use the term "thug".

[FerryFor50]

I also hope that Artest comment was a joke. That dude has certifiable mental problems, Smart just needs to learn to keep his composure, there's a very distinct difference.

Wasn't a joke. Smart has done several things in his young career aside from this fan incident that have me questioning his mental state. Just this season I've seen a few elbows with intent and his temper tantrum meltdown where he actually left the arena area.

I'd like to see documented evidence of Artest's mental problems, such as diagnosis, because all I've seen is evidence similar to things Smart has done - cheap shots in games, elbows, and now, attacking a fan.

[bbosbbos]

I am waiting for the truth. No conclusion yet. Why do you want to ban a fan without knowing what he said? If what he said is "Loser!", or something like that, you want to ban him? If he said racist words, I agree with you.

btw, this is from ESPN: I like how these conversations turn into

"He probably called him the N word"

to "He called him the N word"

to "HE SHOULD GO TO JAIL FOR CALLING HIM THE N WORD"


And that "super fan" shouldn't be in an arena ever again.

[CameronBlue]

It appears as if the same fan puts in a cameo here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0NdJahHN0w&feature=youtu.be

If so he should be banned from Texas Tech sporting events unless he was merely suggesting the player should schedule a colonoscopy. Smart should be similarly suspended.

[Furniture]

What Smart did was incredibly stupid and he will undoubtedly be punished for it. He will get suspended, and I'm sure his draft stock will fall.

That said, the idea that is was racial abuse was literally the first thing that crossed my mind.

And regarding the use of the word "thug". On the same weekend that Richard Sherman went of on his rant, the Calgary Flames and the Vancouver Canucks engaged in an epic hockey brawl at the start of a game, a brawl that was clearly the intended result of some of the coaches' lineup decisions. Yet the word "thug" was not as easily thrown around as it was against Sherman.

Speak personally, it has made me think far more closely about how and when I use the term "thug".

I used the word originally and knowing what I know now I would definitely would not have used it and I apologize if I offended anyone.

[theAlaskanBear]

Sure. The kid appears to have a real problem with his temper overriding his better judgment. That's easy to understand.

Next question: Was turning around to engage and then push an opposing fan who offered no threat of physical harm excusable? Absolutely not.

Smart appears to need counseling to help him control his temper the same way Kyrie needed physical therapy to heal his toe. Hope he gets it.

Not having completed a psychological evaluation of him, you have no idea if needs counseling, nor do I.

What I know is that Smart's body is coursing with adrenaline. He falls out of bounds, within earshot and arms length of someone who it seems yelled a racist taunt. The adrenaline is going, it's fight or flight...it takes an great amount of self-control in a situation like that. I am not going to condemn someone for what may be a provoked lapse of judgement. We expect our athletes to be strong, tough, aggressive, to never back down, to play with emotion and passion on the court...unfortunately for Marcus Smart and the fan, it bled off the court. This isn't Malice in the Palace, though. And it's a shame that Smart will be castigated for this, that this may be all many people know about a great young basketball player.

Maybe you are right, that I am just an apologist, that Smart has anger problems. Regardless, he will undoubtedly learn from this situation...he will be forced to, because it may destroy the rest of his college career. He turned down the NBA and a high lottery pick, and did what all college fans dream of our star players doing...returning to school to achieve something great. I hope the fan has enough class to admit he went over line and apologize publicly, to urge restraint in whatever punishment the Big-12 has coming.

[Chicago 1995]

I am waiting for the truth. No conclusion yet. Why do you want to ban a fan without knowing what he said? If what he said is "Loser!", or something like that, you want to ban him? If he said racist words, I agree with you.

btw, this is from ESPN: I like how these conversations turn into

"He probably called him the N word"

to "He called him the N word"

to "HE SHOULD GO TO JAIL FOR CALLING HIM THE N WORD"

Orr incited Smart. He's admitted as much.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1953657-jeff-orr-identified-as-texas-tech-fan-shoved-by-marcus-smart

And Orr's not exactly been a gentleman in the past. He's the fan giving the TAMU player a special salute at the end of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0NdJahHN0w

I don't know what he said, and never, ever suggested I did. Good use of the jump to conclusions mat.

And while I think it's possible (maybe even likely) he said something that was, at a minimum, racially insensitive, I think Jeff Orr shouldn't be let back in Texas Tech stadium regardless of what the said. It think there's plenty of evidence here that Orr (and his wife -- who seems to relish getting in Smart's face once he's been goaded into turning around) have no sense of appropriate decorum. Incidents like this cannot happen. Smart should get a hella-long suspension to make clear that players have to turn the other cheek. But the responsibility to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen doesn't fall only on the players. It falls on the schools too. Tech's got a responsibility to make sure its fans know that there's a line you can't cross. Orr crossed that line, just like Smart did. They both should pay the price.

[MChambers]

And regarding the use of the word "thug". On the same weekend that Richard Sherman went of on his rant, the Calgary Flames and the Vancouver Canucks engaged in an epic hockey brawl at the start of a game, a brawl that was clearly the intended result of some of the coaches' lineup decisions. Yet the word "thug" was not as easily thrown around as it was against Sherman.

Speak personally, it has made me think far more closely about how and when I use the term "thug".
You make a good point about hockey being a good comparison, although I think I've heard the word "thug" used a lot in that sport, correctly in my view. Many folks used it about Flyers' goalie Ray Emery earlier this season:

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/02/nhl-no-hearing-scheduled-for-emery-after-holtby-fight/

Of course, what Emery did was far worse than what Smart or Sherman did.

[Atlanta Duke]

There's a video of this winner from Tech flipping off and cursing out a dude from A&M three years ago.

Wow - as posted earlier, Texas Tech superfan Jeff Orr is about to have his turn in the 24/7 sports talk meat grinder - YouTube is forever

I would suggest someone set up a media event sitdown for Smart and Orr to talk it out over a beer, but Smart is too young to drink legally

[miramar]

Maybe the fan dared him to do something worse than Bobby Knight ever did.

[Bluedog]

And regarding the use of the word "thug". On the same weekend that Richard Sherman went of on his rant, the Calgary Flames and the Vancouver Canucks engaged in an epic hockey brawl at the start of a game, a brawl that was clearly the intended result of some of the coaches' lineup decisions. Yet the word "thug" was not as easily thrown around as it was against Sherman.

Maybe that's because the sports media doesn't care about hockey. ;) (No offense to hockey, just you hear 1,000x more about an NFL game than a regular season NHL game in the U.S.) As for the etymology of the term "thug," it's actually originally from Sanskrit and then to Hindi meaning "thief/swindler." The term was originally used to describe a certain behavior in a small group of Indians, and has also been used for other groups, including Irish and Russians. It's historically not been used only for one specific race or ethnic group. Now, if it has evolved that way in the U.S. or some people perceive it that way, I don't know, but the term's roots are much broader. (For the record, I do not think Marcus Smart is a "thug," but certainly made a poor decision in the moment. Maryland fans have said obscene things to JJ - and others - over the years, including completely out of bounds stuff about his sister and not just "generic" taunting...somehow he kept his cool - it's part of the game and Duke players get it worse than anybody.)

[DukeDevil]

You've noticed what the rest of CIS court side looks like, right? It has not become famous due to the extra civility of those in attendance.

sorry, allow me to correct myself. I meant the people sitting in the fold out seats under the basket where the players land/jump/run into you. I don't think it's right for them to start jawing right into a player's ear when he lands right there. I don't think I see that in Cameron, or in most arenas. People there seem to cheer but I don't think I've ever seen those people get into the players when they're right there.

[chaosmage]

The problem is this. Some people believe that money allows them to act how they want, do what they want, when they want, with no consequences (See: Justin Bieber, and others over the years). We as a society either tacitly allow it by excusing it, or hoping that we'll receive reciprocity down the road. I've seen, as a teacher, multiple issues of teachers, coaches, and administrators excusing the star athlete's behavior in hopes (without being said of course) that the player can pay it forward down the road. Happened recently at my last school with a baseball player who got drafted. Now the player doesn't even claim his old coach and won't return his phone calls. Talks about how "I got myself here."

Both of the parties in this case need consequences. Money doesn't give you the ability to not act like you have human decency. It's no different than the people in a shiny new luxury car on the freeway driving without courtesy - you still have to obey the rules. The second issue I have is this: we discuss, as a culture, the excuses for people's behavior. From the courts of law to the court of basketball, adrenaline, the "heat of passion," and such. Perhaps if we started holding people accountable for their actions and didn't create new excuses for it, we'd have less of these problems. I will point out that there are cases where mitigating factors do exist. Anyone looked up Gottlieb's opinion? Curious to see if he'd make excuses based on his time and connections.

/endrant

Suspend Smart a number of games that will get his and Ford's attention, and tell the fan thank you for your time, don't come back.

[TexHawk]

Anyone looked up Gottlieb's opinion? Curious to see if he'd make excuses based on his time and connections.

Doug Gottlieb ‏@GottliebShow 10h
Eddie Sutton wouldn't bring his family to Lubbock, worst things said I have ever heard... Still have to walk away.

[mpj96]

sorry, allow me to correct myself. I meant the people sitting in the fold out seats under the basket where the players land/jump/run into you. I don't think it's right for them to start jawing right into a player's ear when he lands right there. I don't think I see that in Cameron, or in most arenas. People there seem to cheer but I don't think I've ever seen those people get into the players when they're right there.

Putting aside that the fan was approximately where the grad student section is, why is it ok to jaw into a fan's ear from the long side of the court (part of what makes Cameron famous) but not the short side?

[DukeDevil]

Putting aside that the fan was approximately where the grad student section is, why is it ok to jaw into a fan's ear from the long side of the court (part of what makes Cameron famous) but not the short side?

In my opinion, there is absolutely a difference. To be clear, I'm not referring to the grad student section/band section. I'm referring to the row of folding seats they put under the basket right behind the cameramen. Assuming you're just ribbing, trying to get into their head, and not saying anything truly offensive that would get a coach K "cut that out!" look or hand gesture. I think most players let stuff shouted from a distance wash over them, but there is something inherently antagonistic/aggressive about someone yelling in your ear when you're physically vulnerable. Obviously this is just what I think, and you're welcome to disagree, but I think it's similar to people yelling at the fan who tried to distract our shooters in Cameron. Nobody has a problem with them being yelled at across the stadium, but I think if the people in the seats next to them start yelling at them, it becomes a lot of aggressive and, I imagine, much more likely to incite violence.

Even the front row of the student section has press row between them. I grant you that the students get right in there, but I think the presence of that physical barrier is important. I love how the students get over and try to distract, hand wave, etc...but I've often thought there is no way they'd be allowed to continue that if the press row table wasn't there.

Now mind you, I'm not excusing the shove, it wasn't OK and shouldn't have happened, and he should certainly be suspended, I'm strictly commenting on the actions of the fan.

[mpj96]

Not having completed a psychological evaluation of him, you have no idea if needs counseling, nor do I.

What I know is that Smart's body is coursing with adrenaline. He falls out of bounds, within earshot and arms length of someone who it seems yelled a racist taunt. The adrenaline is going, it's fight or flight...it takes an great amount of self-control in a situation like that. I am not going to condemn someone for what may be a provoked lapse of judgement. We expect our athletes to be strong, tough, aggressive, to never back down, to play with emotion and passion on the court...unfortunately for Marcus Smart and the fan, it bled off the court. This isn't Malice in the Palace, though. And it's a shame that Smart will be castigated for this, that this may be all many people know about a great young basketball player.

Maybe you are right, that I am just an apologist, that Smart has anger problems. Regardless, he will undoubtedly learn from this situation...he will be forced to, because it may destroy the rest of his college career. He turned down the NBA and a high lottery pick, and did what all college fans dream of our star players doing...returning to school to achieve something great. I hope the fan has enough class to admit he went over line and apologize publicly, to urge restraint in whatever punishment the Big-12 has coming.

You didn't need to do a clinical evaluation of Kevin Ware to know he had a broken leg and would benefit from seeing a doctor. You don't need a psychological consult to figure out that Marcus Smart has a problem with his temper and would benefit from counseling.

I'm not saying Smart is crazy. I'm saying the kid needs help figuring out how to react when he is angry and in the heat of the moment and that there is an entire field of people out there who are well positioned to help him. If this marks the last time someone tries to take him out of his game by saying something that gets under his skin then his career really will have gone off a cliff.

It is not a shame that Smart will be castigated for this. He should be castigated. He responded to words with physical violence.

[BD80]

I would like to direct you to Richard Sherman's comments on the term thug, because I think that they're very accurate.

I don't know what the fan said. Who cares if he kicked a chair being frustrated? Pushing a fan is bad, really bad, no matter what was said. There is one thing this fan could have said, which I'm sure we all know what that is, which would make this border-line understandable. He's going to get suspended, his draft stock will drop, so no matter what he's going to be punished far more than that fan. Which is regrettable because Marcus Smart is 20 years old, and that fan was some older guy. Both of whom should know better. ...

What if the fan called him a "thug?"

Watching the exchange: http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10426105/marcus-smart-oklahoma-state-cowboys-shoves-fan

If Smart was provoked, it was just verbal, and not in an animated fashion. Smart just blew up.

Reading the stories, I was prepared to see a frothing middle-aged man trying to relive his college years (which he seems to be, but given the opportunity, so would I).
The guy first extends his hands down, palms out, to try to help absorb Smart's momentum, to try to help. The fan may have made a comment, but it didn't appear vitriolic. That said, I in no way condone racial slurs. Unless they are referring to the Dutch. Or the Irish.

What words are we allowed to use to describe Smart for his physical assault on the fan? Rapscallion? Ruffian? Meanie?

OTOH, if that shove is a "disgrace," what about what Quinn and Tyler do to their teammates after GOOD plays?




Smart has always been noted as a high character guy. To me it seems like he's been struggling a lot lately, his team is losing, he's had to deal with all the flopping allegations which he didn't appear to enjoy, and has been showing visible signs of frustration for quite some time, and this event prompted it to all boil over. Doesn't excuse what he did of course, I just won't go as far as saying he's a bad person or anything.

Flopping article came out right before the TT game:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10407828/marcus-smart-oklahoma-state-cowboys-talks-flopping

[TexHawk]

And it's a shame that Smart will be castigated for this, that this may be all many people know about a great young basketball player.

I am not a pro scout or NBA GM, but if I had a top 5 pick, I wouldn't go near Marcus Smart, and I would have said the same thing yesterday. Just this season alone, he has (a) publicly called out the media and other Big12 coaches for the attention paid to Andrew Wiggins, (b) publicly called out Wiggins himself, (c) made a mockery of college basketball by acting like he's been hit with a shotgun on the slightest contact, (d) publicly called out Big12 officials directly earlier this week, (e) whined about how "everybody flops". All of that was before this incident last night.

Can someone point out exactly what makes Smart a "great young basketball player", without falling back on his likely draft position? He famously returned for his sophomore year so he could improve his shot and shot selection. He is now shooting 28% from three, which is worse than he put up last year. He has made 5 of his last 37 three-point shots. He shoots 42% from the floor overall, which is up from 40% last year, but still pretty bad. He handles the ball extremely well for his size, and he can defend passing lanes well, but he's a subpar defender one-on-one. He gets a lot of love for his rebounding stats, but as has been pointed out before, he never has to block anyone out, because his man (the opposing PG) never attempts to get offensive boards. ESPN particularly loves calling him a "winner", even though he has never won a conference title, a conference tournament game, or an NCAA tournament game.


KU/Bill Self very famously went all out recruiting Smart out of Dallas. We all wanted him desperately. (I drool thinking about him running the point next to McLemore/Releford/Withey/Johnson last year.) He decided to go to OSU because Travis Ford was the only one to offer a scholarship to Phil Forte, his best friend since grade school. Of course, I'm a biased homer, but I have to think playing under Bill Self would be better for him (Ford's response to this whole situation has been rather odd, imo.)

Smart came into AFH as a freshman and broke KU's home winning streak, then topped it off by doing a backflip on the center court mega Jayhawk after the final horn. Some fans were offended, but most mature ones understood, a young kid winning the game of his life is bound to be excited. The KU players vowed to return the favor in Stillwater, which they did. There was some angst when Smart won the Big12 POY award over McLemore, but that passed. Smart was probably on most fan lists of Top 5 opposing players they respect/enjoy watching.

Then the 13-14 season started, and it's like he's a completely different person. I personally think that all of the shock and hand-wringing over his decision to stay in school affected his psyche somehow. Everyone calling him an idiot and crazy has to weigh on you after a while. He started well, but his shooting has fallen off a cliff after New Year's. Then the flopping got worse and worse, culminating in his return performance in AFH, which was, um, despicable. Then the game against ISU earlier this week, which was disgusting. And those are the words I keep coming back to when thinking about him. The way he plays is despicable to me. I love this sport, and Marcus Smart is actively making a mockery of it.

To head off the likely response, I really do think Smart is a good kid, caught up in a losing streak, with a lot of people talking about him negatively. I was a hot head at 20 years old, so I have a hard time getting too worked up when others act similarly. (Of course, if I were in a position to draft and make a multi-million dollar investment in that same hot head, it's a different story.) It all came to a head last night in a situation where everyone involved looks worse today. He will get suspended, there will be more angst on both sides, and ESPN wins.

[TexHawk]

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanESPN 59m
NBA GM on Smart's draft stock affected: "When you are loved more for your intangibles than your tangibles to begin with, how can it not?"

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanESPN 1h
Mixed reaction from NBA GM's on whether Marcus Smart's draft stock affected by incident. One of them: "Heavens no. His shooting does."

[mpj96]

In my opinion, there is absolutely a difference. To be clear, I'm not referring to the grad student section/band section. I'm referring to the row of folding seats they put under the basket right behind the cameramen. Assuming you're just ribbing, trying to get into their head, and not saying anything truly offensive that would get a coach K "cut that out!" look or hand gesture. I think most players let stuff shouted from a distance wash over them, but there is something inherently antagonistic/aggressive about someone yelling in your ear when you're physically vulnerable. Obviously this is just what I think, and you're welcome to disagree, but I think it's similar to people yelling at the fan who tried to distract our shooters in Cameron. Nobody has a problem with them being yelled at across the stadium, but I think if the people in the seats next to them start yelling at them, it becomes a lot of aggressive and, I imagine, much more likely to incite violence.

Even the front row of the student section has press row between them. I grant you that the students get right in there, but I think the presence of that physical barrier is important. I love how the students get over and try to distract, hand wave, etc...but I've often thought there is no way they'd be allowed to continue that if the press row table wasn't there.

Now mind you, I'm not excusing the shove, it wasn't OK and shouldn't have happened, and he should certainly be suspended, I'm strictly commenting on the actions of the fan.

At CIS there's not much of a physical barrier between the student section and the player who is in bounding the ball. I am sure there are a ton of pictures on the net that would show hands in very close proximity to an in bounding player's head and students doing their best to scream into a player's ear. I seem to recall opposing coaches complain about this from time to time.

I rewatched the video after reading your post and just don't see that Smart was reacting out of a sense of physical vulnerability or that anyone was yelling in his ear. The fan he confronted was certainly further away than the crazies are to an in bounding player. Smart had to jump up, turn around and take a few steps to get to the fan.

If the fan yelled a racial slur he should go. It doesn't matter how old he is. If the fan said something merely obnoxious or irritating to the player , well, that is part of the game ( in-Hale, ex-Hale, JR can't Reid, stand up, you let the whole team down, etc.). Being an obnoxious fan is not a perk reserved to a specific age demographic.

[killerleft]

I don't think it's strange to withhold judgement. Obviously, Smart made a mistake, and he will get punished for it. Once he turned around to face the crowd...he lost the battle.

But I am sick of fans who think anything goes, who think that they can be a rancid and abusive human because they bought a ticket. I will admit a certain amount of joy at the shock on the faces of the women flanking the man that there might be a repercussion to something they say.

Can you look at this photo and tell me you can't understand why Smart did what he did?

3873

Honestly, if this photo was taken from behind the 'fans', the expression on Smart's face would probably be just as objectionable. But having not seen the video, I just found it on youtube. I assumed, from all the comments here, that Smart must have ended up amongst those surly folks purely as a result of the momentum of his defensive efforts. But after watching the video, I'm afraid that I can find no reason to excuse Mr. Smart for his actions. HE caused the incident. HE had to take a couple of steps to reach those possibly poor excuses for human beings who were taunting him. HE had the whole situation in his control. Yet he pushed a guy who was no physical threat to him. Make whatever narrative you want out of this, but please start with an admission that Smart was the architect. The 'snapshot' you showed us was the result of Mr. Smart's actions. He shouldn't have been there at all.

I like the mention of JJ, and the taunts he had to endure, especially at Maryland. I doubt very seriously if Smart has heard worse than that.

[BD80]

... Can someone point out exactly what makes Smart a "great young basketball player", without falling back on his likely draft position? ...

He got rave reviews for his play on Team USA. He was considered a great teammate and leader.

[arnie]

Orr incited Smart. He's admitted as much.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1953657-jeff-orr-identified-as-texas-tech-fan-shoved-by-marcus-smart

And Orr's not exactly been a gentleman in the past. He's the fan giving the TAMU player a special salute at the end of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0NdJahHN0w

I don't know what he said, and never, ever suggested I did. Good use of the jump to conclusions mat.

And while I think it's possible (maybe even likely) he said something that was, at a minimum, racially insensitive, I think Jeff Orr shouldn't be let back in Texas Tech stadium regardless of what the said. It think there's plenty of evidence here that Orr (and his wife -- who seems to relish getting in Smart's face once he's been goaded into turning around) have no sense of appropriate decorum. Incidents like this cannot happen. Smart should get a hella-long suspension to make clear that players have to turn the other cheek. But the responsibility to make sure stuff like this doesn't happen doesn't fall only on the players. It falls on the schools too. Tech's got a responsibility to make sure its fans know that there's a line you can't cross. Orr crossed that line, just like Smart did. They both should pay the price.
I'm fascinated with all the posts that essentially put all blame on the fan and find excuses for Smart's behavior. Smart went into the stands to attack the fan. This could happen at Duke one day and will AlaskanBear and others want all Duke fans removed? I'm sure the fan is obnoxious (similar to Duke students) but Smart simply can't do this. This was Ron Artest behavior and comparing Smart to Artest is fair as Smart has had numerous anger management issues. Stephen A. Smith only blames Smart- Bilas is vague with his statement as the issue is not related to paying college athletes.

[gus]

Maybe that's because the sports media doesn't care about hockey. ;) (No offense to hockey, just you hear 1,000x more about an NFL game than a regular season NHL game in the U.S.) As for the etymology of the term "thug," it's actually originally from Sanskrit and then to Hindi meaning "thief/swindler." The term was originally used to describe a certain behavior in a small group of Indians, and has also been used for other groups, including Irish and Russians. It's historically not been used only for one specific race or ethnic group. Now, if it has evolved that way in the U.S. or some people perceive it that way, I don't know, but the term's roots are much broader. (For the record, I do not think Marcus Smart is a "thug," but certainly made a poor decision in the moment. Maryland fans have said obscene things to JJ - and others - over the years, including completely out of bounds stuff about his sister and not just "generic" taunting...somehow he kept his cool - it's part of the game and Duke players get it worse than anybody.)

Having a benign etymology doesn't make the word itself benign. There's a certain word relevant to this discussion that has an origin in Latin for the color "black" and became corrupted probably in its use in Spanish. Benign origin, awful word. Thug, while no where near as offensive, has come to be applied almost exclusively to African American men (at least in American English), usually in a context of being dangerously violent, and plays into some odious stereotyping.

[throatybeard]

And Smart's action caught a lot of negative attention on late-night ESPN.

It was all they talked about. All! I sat there watching just for the purpose of seeing how long it would go. I think they finally devoted about a minute to the Miami Heat, and then it was back to Smartgate. No Olympics, no NHL, no actual college basketball, nuthin.

[MCFinARL]

Wasn't a joke. Smart has done several things in his young career aside from this fan incident that have me questioning his mental state. Just this season I've seen a few elbows with intent and his temper tantrum meltdown where he actually left the arena area.

I'd like to see documented evidence of Artest's mental problems, such as diagnosis, because all I've seen is evidence similar to things Smart has done - cheap shots in games, elbows, and now, attacking a fan.

Well, I don't have any "documentation" for you, but when a guy thanks his psychiatrist immediately after winning the NBA finals, as Artest did in 2010, and then auctions his championship ring to raise money for mental health charities, I think that's a clue.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwrEy6ZC_Yw#t=30

[bbosbbos]

ESPN needs such things. I understand.


It was all they talked about. All! I sat there watching just for the purpose of seeing how long it would go. I think they finally devoted about a minute to the Miami Heat, and then it was back to Smartgate. No Olympics, no NHL, no actual college basketball, nuthin.

[Olympic Fan]

It's being reported that someone close to Orr claims that what he said was "Get up, you p---y."

If true (and it does come from an internet tweet, so take it from what it's worth) does that warrant a shove?

It also got me thinking about the difference between something said and something heard.

We all remember the chant in Cameron last year "Past your bedtime" that somehow was heard by State fans as "How's your grandma"

[Kfanarmy]

In an attempt to not break one of the Forum's rule about attacking another poster, I will not make any comments against your personhood Furniture. However, I believe it is well within fair play to say that your COMMENT is ignorant, asinine, and adds absolutely nothing to this discourse.

There is absolutely nothing that excuses Smart's response. He is an individual who is afforded an opportunity to play a wonderful game and represent a good school in an opponent's facility. He knows there will be negative comments, some of which may cross the line of decency. Not even considering the ramifications on his future NBA career, he should have responded in a more appropriate and clear minded manner.

Having said that, and admitting that I am not a lip reader, there are only so many things that could be said within the course of a short time to receive the response that Smart gave to that fan. I dunno, maybe Smart is a hothead, and was mad his team was about to lose, and the guy said "I hate your orange jerseys", and Smart just lost it because he really likes orange. But i doubt that...

As it is not prudent to pass inappropriate judgement on the nature of Smart's personhood (e.g. Smart is a thug) without all of the facts, I will also not go so far as to jump to a conclusion as to the nature of the fan's comment (or the fan's personhood). However, knowing the type of society we live in, and the many hot buttons issues that still surround us, let us not be quick to take one side in this manner and absolve the side of any wrong doing.
I have no idea what this says.

[El_Diablo]

Having a benign etymology doesn't make the word itself benign. There's a certain word relevant to this discussion that has an origin in Latin for the color "black" and became corrupted probably in its use in Spanish. Benign origin, awful word. Thug, while no where near as offensive, has come to be applied almost exclusively to African American men (at least in American English), usually in a context of being dangerously violent, and plays into some odious stereotyping.

Sure, it absolutely plays to some odious stereotyping if used to refer to someone's baggy clothes or something. But it's not just odious stereotyping when referring to someone who actually exhibits violent behavior or resorts to physical intimidation through threats of violence. For example, the media repeatedly referred to Richie Incognito as a thug when details where coming out about his behavior.

People can disagree about the severity of violence in this case or the degree to which such outbursts are becoming a pattern with Smart (e.g., the repeated chair-kicking when other people are seated in chairs that are connected to said chair). But to jump all over someone for using the T-word or to imply that such person is racist for saying it is not really fair IMO.* At least in this case, which involves an actual physical altercation.


*Please note that I am not trying to single you out here--your post was just the most recent one on the use of this word.

[gus]

Sure, it absolutely plays to some odious stereotyping if used to refer to someone's baggy clothes or something. But it's not just odious stereotyping when referring to someone who actually exhibits violent behavior or resorts to physical intimidation through threats of violence. For example, the media repeatedly referred to Richie Incognito as a thug when details where coming out about his behavior.

People can disagree about the severity of violence in this case or the degree to which such outbursts are becoming a pattern with Smart (e.g., the repeated chair-kicking when other people are seated in chairs that are connected to said chair). But to jump all over someone for using the T-word or to imply that such person is racist for saying it is not really fair IMO.* At least in this case, which involves an actual physical altercation.


*Please note that I am not trying to single you out here--your post was just the most recent one on the use of this word.

For the record, I didn't jump all over the poster who used the word thug. I didn't even criticize him/her. All I did was point it that the etymology of the word (while interesting to me) has no bearing on whether it's appropriate to use. I also tried to explain the reaction to the word. People did call Incognito a thug, so that's a good counter example. Any deeper discussion beyond this would move into verboten territory. Please let's not start using "t-word" though. That's just silly.

[rsvman]

The fan could be an obnoxious moron. I don't know him. Nor do I know what he said.

But Marcus Not-so-Smart has no excuse for what he did. None. He should pay appropriate consequences.

[drcharl]

Just announced by OSU

[Chicago 1995]

I'm fascinated with all the posts that essentially put all blame on the fan and find excuses for Smart's behavior. Smart went into the stands to attack the fan. This could happen at Duke one day and will AlaskanBear and others want all Duke fans removed? I'm sure the fan is obnoxious (similar to Duke students) but Smart simply can't do this. This was Ron Artest behavior and comparing Smart to Artest is fair as Smart has had numerous anger management issues. Stephen A. Smith only blames Smart- Bilas is vague with his statement as the issue is not related to paying college athletes.

No problem using me as an example. Thing is, I'm not putting all the blame on the fan. I'm not making excuses for Smart. He needs to be suspended. He should be suspended. I've already said that. Athletes can't go into the stands like that. They can't.

But the fan isn't blameless. The school isn't blameless. Both sides should take responsibility.

As for the Duke comparison, if the Crazies behavior ever approached inciting a riot, we'd damn sure need to make changes, and we'd damn sure be getting a ton of pressure to make changes. Maybe we should be thanking our lucky stars that we've not crossed a line leading to something like this. Maybe we've been smart to avoid those lines. Maybe we've been lucky. Maybe press row is just enough of a buffer to matter. Maybe it's sheer numbers and no one would be crazy enough to take on the entire bleachers. Whatever it is, maybe Duke -- and the Crazies -- should take this opportunity to make sure that as loud and as crazy and as active as they are, as aggressive as they are, they steer well clear of lines that might drive someone to come at them.

I think it's as odd that there are as many who want to blame Smart solely as you think its odd that there are people who want to absolve Smart. Blame in cases like this lies in both places.

[bbosbbos]

Did college player shoving fan happen before?

[Chicago 1995]

Did college player shoving fan happen before?

Fran, on twitter last night, referenced Jayson Williams going into the stands at some point in 1988. I don't have any recollection of that, nor do I know what happened to Williams when he did that. Fran would have been on the St. John's bench at that point, I think, so he'd know.

[weezie]

The fan could be an obnoxious moron. I don't know him. Nor do I know what he said.

Now there's a report that the fan was also caught flipping off and berating a tx a&m player?
Seems like he's way too old to be acting like such a tool. Yes, I know idiocy has no age, race, creed limits.

[bbosbbos]

When UNCheat lost games, their fans did the same to their players and Roy.


Now there's a report that the fan was also caught flipping off and berating a tx a&m player?

[mpj96]

As for the Duke comparison, if the Crazies behavior ever approached inciting a riot, we'd damn sure need to make changes, and we'd damn sure be getting a ton of pressure to make changes. Maybe we should be thanking our lucky stars that we've not crossed a line leading to something like...

Are you aware of some conduct by a fan last night that approached inciting a riot? Or is this a straw man?

I'll admit that, when they are on their game, the Crazies are a riot.

[weezie]

When UNCheat lost games, their fans did the same to their players and Roy.

Like I said, no limits to stupidity. Especially "over yonder."

[FerryFor50]

Fran, on twitter last night, referenced Jayson Williams going into the stands at some point in 1988. I don't have any recollection of that, nor do I know what happened to Williams when he did that. Fran would have been on the St. John's bench at that point, I think, so he'd know.

At least he didn't shoot a limo driver...

[bbosbbos]

Oregon Coach said he was spit on during the game. very bad.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10427680/oregon-ducks-coach-brian-fish-says-arizona-state-sun-devils-student-spit-him

[Chicago 1995]

Are you aware of some conduct by a fan last night that approached inciting a riot? Or is this a straw man?

Last night, obviously not. If that super fan keeps his mouth shut, there's nothing to talk about. If Smart keeps his cool, there's nothing to talk about. Neither came close to inciting a riot.

That being said, plenty of the people here on Smart's case are making a quick comparison to Ron Artest, who, along with some drunk bozo from Detroit who tossed a beer, incited a riot in the Palace at Auburn Hills. The concern, generally, with athletes going after fans, is that a brawl will be started. That's close to inciting a riot. In the larger context of this conversation, the reference was appropriate and made sense.

[Chicago 1995]

At least he didn't shoot a limo driver...

Not yet anyway. Although I'm sure that people will have that destined for Smart if the Williams comparison Frascilla made is true.

[jipops]

My Thug comment was based on not only what he did when he pushed the fan but his continuous ranting afterwards and the fact that he seemed to want to go back over after the game to continue the argument with the fan. He had to be restrained and pushed off the court.
Now, It did not cross my mind that racial abuse could be involved and if it was then that is very sad, totally unacceptable and would make mr Smarts actions somewhat understandable.

Maybe the fan is the thug... In the relative use of "thug" here.

[wavedukefan70s]

Both smart and the fan/s should Be suspended for a couple of games. If for nothing else ,to show that this kind of interaction is unacceptable .

[Bob Green]

Smart will speak at 6 pm news conference:


The Big 12 has set up a news conference for Sunday afternoon. Following that, Oklahoma State has scheduled a news conference for 6 p.m. ET at which Smart will speak.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10426105/marcus-smart-oklahoma-state-cowboys-shoves-fan

[Atlanta Duke]

But at least Metta World Peace may have mellowed since The Malice At The Palace

The Knicks were in town today to play the Thunder, which resulted in the Oklahoma City paper publishing his thoughts on Mr. Smart's encounter last night

Some excerpts below

Q: Just because they give their money, does that give a fan the right to scream something?

A: If a fan screams something at me, I don’t know what that person has been through, you know. He could have or she could have grown up rough or maybe in a single family household. I don’t know what would make somebody scream negative things at somebody, maybe they’re just having fun. In a pro game, I’ve learned to accept it because they pay to watch us play and hey, I appreciate it. Then I go home and I finish watching Breaking Bad. It’s that simple for me. I’m actually on House of Cards now. I just finished Breaking Bad. I wish there was a Season 6 actually, because Breaking Bad was amazing. Have you seen it?....

Q: Would you respond differently if it happened today?

A: (Joking) If you threw a beer at me, I probably would put you in a chokehold right now. And then we would go get some ice cream later, but I would probably tell you how much of an (expletive) you were.

http://newsok.com/article/3932174

[chaosmage]

3 game suspension per Jeff Goodman and ESPN; ironically, first game back is the OSU/TT at OSU. Coincidence?

[throatybeard]

3 game suspension per Jeff Goodman and ESPN; ironically, first game back is the OSU/TT at OSU. Coincidence?

Probably not. This way ESPN can beat this barely-a-story story to death for another two weeks.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

But at least Metta World Peace may have mellowed since The Malice At The Palace

The Knicks were in town today to play the Thunder, which resulted in the Oklahoma City paper publishing his thoughts on Mr. Smart's encounter last night

Some excerpts below

Q: Just because they give their money, does that give a fan the right to scream something?

A: If a fan screams something at me, I don’t know what that person has been through, you know. He could have or she could have grown up rough or maybe in a single family household. I don’t know what would make somebody scream negative things at somebody, maybe they’re just having fun. In a pro game, I’ve learned to accept it because they pay to watch us play and hey, I appreciate it. Then I go home and I finish watching Breaking Bad. It’s that simple for me. I’m actually on House of Cards now. I just finished Breaking Bad. I wish there was a Season 6 actually, because Breaking Bad was amazing. Have you seen it?....

Q: Would you respond differently if it happened today?

A: (Joking) If you threw a beer at me, I probably would put you in a chokehold right now. And then we would go get some ice cream later, but I would probably tell you how much of an (expletive) you were.

http://newsok.com/article/3932174

When Metta World Peace retires, he seriously should get a job with P & G making Old Spice commercials.

Both are really weird, kinda scary, and doesn't make a bit of sense, but in the end, all you can do is laugh.

[roywhite]

Probably not. This way ESPN can beat this barely-a-story story to death for another two weeks.

It would be hard to outdo the over-coverage the Worldwide Leader provided about Richard Sherman, but I guess they can try.

[Kfanarmy]

So...apparently no racial epithet as several posters implied, searching to provide just cause for the push. What Orr said was bad enough to make anyone angry, and well below the maturity a man of his age should have, but the racial component seems to have been added, or not, by the individual viewer. A pretty sad day for sports magnified by the obvious elation of a certain sports channel on having a train wreck to replay over and over for their viewers.

[FerryFor50]

So...apparently no racial epithet as several posters implied, searching to provide just cause for the push. What Orr said was bad enough to make anyone angry, and well below the maturity a man of his age should have, but the racial component seems to have been added, or not, by the individual viewer. A pretty sad day for sports magnified by the obvious elation of a certain sports channel on having a train wreck to replay over and over for their viewers.

I see you bought the "piece of crap" story Orr told.

Whether he said something racist or just vulgar, I'd bet money that he didn't say "piece of crap."

[arnie]

So...apparently no racial epithet as several posters implied, searching to provide just cause for the push. What Orr said was bad enough to make anyone angry, and well below the maturity a man of his age should have, but the racial component seems to have been added, or not, by the individual viewer. A pretty sad day for sports magnified by the obvious elation of a certain sports channel on having a train wreck to replay over and over for their viewers.

It's one thing for DBR posters to make false allegations; quite another for the Okie State announcer to claim he heard the epithet. Curious if he will be reprimanded?

[crimsonandblue]

It's one thing for DBR posters to make false allegations; quite another for the Okie State announcer to claim he heard the epithet. Curious if he will be reprimanded?

There's this video in support of the Orr story: http://youtu.be/U5tqqJ_h7ak

Nothing definitive, but you sure can't hear enough to hear anything at a media side table. The OSU radio guy claimed to only have heard a report from the bench. Not overheard the exchange.

[Kfanarmy]

I see you bought the "piece of crap" story Orr told.

Whether he said something racist or just vulgar, I'd bet money that he didn't say "piece of crap."

Yes. I guess I did. And if Marcus, six or so feet away heard it, I'm guessing there are at least a half dozen witnesses who heard what he said. "Piece of crap" are fighting words in most places MEN go, so don't understand why anyone wouldn't think that was bad enough..but your response indicates a remaining belief or hope that that he may have said something racist...why?

[-jk]

Easy. Play nice, everyone.

-jk

[FerryFor50]

Yes. I guess I did. And if Marcus, six or so feet away heard it, I'm guessing there are at least a half dozen witnesses who heard what he said. "Piece of crap" are fighting words in most places MEN go, so don't understand why anyone wouldn't think that was bad enough..but your response indicates a remaining belief or hope that that he may have said something racist...why?

"Piece of crap" is not fighting words in any place outside of the sixth grade.

I doubt that would have set Smart off. I never made any assertion about what was said. In fact, I said in this very thread that Smart is a head case. The only person who knows what was said is Orr, and my opinion is that he's lying.

[theAlaskanBear]

I'm fascinated with all the posts that essentially put all blame on the fan and find excuses for Smart's behavior. Smart went into the stands to attack the fan. This could happen at Duke one day and will AlaskanBear and others want all Duke fans removed? I'm sure the fan is obnoxious (similar to Duke students) but Smart simply can't do this. This was Ron Artest behavior and comparing Smart to Artest is fair as Smart has had numerous anger management issues. Stephen A. Smith only blames Smart- Bilas is vague with his statement as the issue is not related to paying college athletes.

I think I have said repeatedly that Smart should get suspended, and that this was a lapse in judgement. I just will hold a 50 year old man to a higher standard than a 20 year old who is filled with adrenaline. Suspend them both, make sure both of them have a chance to mature sans basketball and reflect on how much basketball means to them.

Secondly, your hyperbole is out of line. No one is suggesting removing all fans, or preventing cheering! This is nothing like Malice in the Palace, and comparing him to Artest totally unfair. Please detail Smart's numerous anger management issues? Oh, he kicked a chair? Tell me about those angry, dangerous tennis players who routinely destroy their rackets, baseball players who snap their bats and destroy gatorade coolers? Emotion is a part of sport, sometimes it gets out of hand.

For the record, if there are abusive Duke fans, they should be removed as well. Even if it was one of my DBR compatriots (I will say, I personally have never experienced any fans like this in the stands of any game, except for two drunken idiots at a Braves game). Players, even opposing players, work countless hours to play at collegiate level and they deserve respect when they are out on the court. I've just never understood the mentality that its ok to verbally abuse an athlete.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

"Piece of crap" is not fighting words in any place outside of the sixth grade.

I doubt that would have set Smart off. I never made any assertion about what was said. In fact, I said in this very thread that Smart is a head case. The only person who knows what was said is Orr, and my opinion is that he's lying.

I listened to the YouTube video and I can clearly hear someone yell "piece of (?)".

It's not clear to me if the last word was "crap" or something else but I didn't hear anything racial.

Although I think the fan needs a reality check and is probably a jerk, in this case I believe him.

[arnie]

I think I have said repeatedly that Smart should get suspended, and that this was a lapse in judgement. I just will hold a 50 year old man to a higher standard than a 20 year old who is filled with adrenaline. Suspend them both, make sure both of them have a chance to mature sans basketball and reflect on how much basketball means to them.

Secondly, your hyperbole is out of line. No one is suggesting removing all fans, or preventing cheering! This is nothing like Malice in the Palace, and comparing him to Artest totally unfair. Please detail Smart's numerous anger management issues? Oh, he kicked a chair? Tell me about those angry, dangerous tennis players who routinely destroy their rackets, baseball players who snap their bats and destroy gatorade coolers? Emotion is a part of sport, sometimes it gets out of hand.

For the record, if there are abusive Duke fans, they should be removed as well. Even if it was one of my DBR compatriots (I will say, I personally have never experienced any fans like this in the stands of any game, except for two drunken idiots at a Braves game). Players, even opposing players, work countless hours to play at collegiate level and they deserve respect when they are out on the court. I've just never understood the mentality that its ok to verbally abuse an athlete.

You're kidding- if there are abusive Duke fans? I've heard much worse (than currently reported) from Dukies and much, much worse from State fans near courtside. Anyway, will simply disagree with you on Smart's character.

[dyedwab]

"Piece of crap" is not fighting words in any place outside of the sixth grade.

I doubt that would have set Smart off. I never made any assertion about what was said. In fact, I said in this very thread that Smart is a head case. The only person who knows what was said is Orr, and my opinion is that he's lying.

I'll own it. I think the following:

1) Smart deserved to be suspended and three games seems right. You can't get into it with fans like that

2) I think Orr is lying. Maybe he said "piece of crap" but that exchange appeared to be longer than that 3 word exchange

3) The video is not conclusive. Yes I heard "piece of crap" also. But other stuff was being said and was not clear in the video release

4) Texas Tech is practicing "obfuscation by transparency". Admitting to something (but not everything), and releasing some evidence (that isn't conclusive) is a classic rapid response in my world. This isn't all there is.

5) Orr's "voluntary" decision not attend anymore TTU games this year would seem to be an overreaction to what he admits to saying.

6) It took TTU a very long time to decide what its response would be. I would have thought that they respond almost instantly with, at the very least, a "that's not what he said, he was misinterpreted" last night, not nearly 24 hours later.

So, yeah, I don't believe that the version of what happened on which a bunch of decisions were based was actually what happened.

[uh_no]

So, yeah, I don't believe that the version of what happened on which a bunch of decisions were based was actually what happened.

probably not...but in the end, I'm not sure it matters:

It doesn't matter if Orr used a slur, Smart shouldn't have engaged him.

It doesn't matter if Orr didn't use a slur, he shouldn't have continued to get in Smart's face after Smart turned around.

[-jk]

I reckon an Avuncular Letter might be in order to restore order.

Worked for us, anyway.

-jk

[FerryFor50]

probably not...but in the end, I'm not sure it matters:

It doesn't matter if Orr used a slur, Smart shouldn't have engaged him.

It doesn't matter if Orr didn't use a slur, he shouldn't have continued to get in Smart's face after Smart turned around.

Did you notice that Orr went all Hansbrough when Smart confronted him? It was reported he said "sorry about that" and my rudimentary lip reading skills agree.

[crimsonandblue]

I'll own it. I think the following:

1) Smart deserved to be suspended and three games seems right. You can't get into it with fans like that

2) I think Orr is lying. Maybe he said "piece of crap" but that exchange appeared to be longer than that 3 word exchange

3) The video is not conclusive. Yes I heard "piece of crap" also. But other stuff was being said and was not clear in the video release

4) Texas Tech is practicing "obfuscation by transparency". Admitting to something (but not everything), and releasing some evidence (that isn't conclusive) is a classic rapid response in my world. This isn't all there is.

5) Orr's "voluntary" decision not attend anymore TTU games this year would seem to be an overreaction to what he admits to saying.

6) It took TTU a very long time to decide what its response would be. I would have thought that they respond almost instantly with, at the very least, a "that's not what he said, he was misinterpreted" last night, not nearly 24 hours later.

So, yeah, I don't believe that the version of what happened on which a bunch of decisions were based was actually what happened.

I'm certainly not sure of what went on, but it was about 6 seconds from crash to dash back out on the court. We hear the piece of crap line. We see video once Smart stands up of him either saying "sorry about that" or "you're not my type" depending on the lip reading internet savant you want to trust. Maybe we can locate a third Zapruder film of the missing 1.3 racially charged seconds of stage whispers, but I have no idea why a program would obfuscate in favor of that clown. And the notion that Tech has taken "a very long time" to respond seems bizarre.

[TexHawk]

I'll own it. I think the following:
2) I think Orr is lying. Maybe he said "piece of crap" but that exchange appeared to be longer than that 3 word exchange
I think "piece of crap" is what set Smart off, and got him confronting the fan. I don't think that clip that's been played over and over again, culminating in the shove is the same exchange.



6) It took TTU a very long time to decide what its response would be. I would have thought that they respond almost instantly with, at the very least, a "that's not what he said, he was misinterpreted" last night, not nearly 24 hours later.
I have heard other versions of this said today, and I really don't understand it. (1) TTech was likely explicitly told by the Big12 to not speak to media about the incident until it had been fully investigated by the conference. (2) There was A LOT of, um, crap flying today about what the fan did or didn't say, without a real accusation by anybody. Twitter rumors don't count. I actually commend TTech for not coming out and trying to refute every last online nutjob rumor. (3) There were discussions/rumors about a possible ban by the conference for Orr. If I am him, and my courtside seats at a Jayhawk game are threatened over something I didn't do/say... Yea, sorry, I'm going to call my lawyer. And I'm sure Tech's lawyers were scared of the possibility too.

So, hey, maybe we let the conference speak and act first. There is zero reason to run and create a mess by themselves.

[TexHawk]

"Piece of crap" is not fighting words in any place outside of the sixth grade.

I doubt that would have set Smart off. I never made any assertion about what was said. In fact, I said in this very thread that Smart is a head case. The only person who knows what was said is Orr, and my opinion is that he's lying.

Well, Smart knows what was said too (or at least he thinks he does). And he's the same guy who has been quite literally LYING on the basketball court to embellish contact, and in some cases, completely make stuff up to get calls. He fully admits this.

I don't know if I believe Orr either, but we have no reason to trust Smart either.

[_Gary]

I'm just not understanding why there's one iota of excusing Smart's actions - even if just a little. There's simply no justification for him going after a fan, an older man at that, in the stands. How anyone can "side" with Marcus on this is beyond me. When I think of all the "crap" (no pun intended) that some of our guys have suffered over the years at venues like the Comcast Center without responding anywhere close to how Smart responded, I just shake my head at any justification of the young man's actions.

[Zephyrius]

I've read a lot of different accounts, but it seems liek the ones pushing the "piece of crap" angle are usually cited as "people close to Orr," so i'd take that with a grain of salt.

As for other possibilities, it seems like one larger opinion is that he said "go back to africa" which is why he (Orr) may have been apologizing after saying it

[Kfanarmy]

"Piece of crap" is not fighting words in any place outside of the sixth grade....

OK....I'll give you a little challenge. Find a local sports bar that charges less than two bucks a beer. Go find a group of locals, pick one out and use the quote...when it gets rough, tell em only a sixth grader would consider them fighting words...I'm not sure they'll be convinced.

I don't blame the player for being PO'd, but he has to be situationally aware--go out and get even on the court.

Implying a racial epithet to justify the response is, as far as I'm concerned, almost as bad as what Orr said to begin with...that's my opinion.

[TexHawk]

I've read a lot of different accounts, but it seems liek the ones pushing the "piece of crap" angle are usually cited as "people close to Orr," so i'd take that with a grain of salt.

As for other possibilities, it seems like one larger opinion is that he said "go back to africa" which is why he (Orr) may have been apologizing after saying it

Well, I hate coming across like I'm defending Orr here, but can't you also suspect that the other different/worse accounts came from people close to Smart/OSU? The "N-word" stuff that came out immediately after was from the OSU radio team. They overheard a Cowboy assistant coach telling someone else that that is what Smart told them. Soon it was reported as fact.

We will never really know the truth, unless there is more audio, or one of the fans close by speaks up. Absent any witnesses or players in the saga that are incentivized to tell the truth, all of this back-and-forth is interesting for message boards, but otherwise pointless.

[crimsonandblue]

If we're going to start inferring a buncha stuff from nothing, it might be telling that Smart started his presser by apologizing to Orr. Do you do that if a guy dropped an n-bomb or similar language on you?

[FerryFor50]

OK....I'll give you a little challenge. Find a local sports bar that charges less than two bucks a beer. Go find a group of locals, pick one out and use the quote...when it gets rough, tell em only a sixth grader would consider them fighting words...I'm not sure they'll be convinced.

I don't blame the player for being PO'd, but he has to be situationally aware--go out and get even on the court.

Implying a racial epithet to justify the response is, as far as I'm concerned, almost as bad as what Orr said to begin with...that's my opinion.

My challenge to you: find where I implied he used a racial epithet anywhere.

[FerryFor50]

I'm certainly not sure of what went on, but it was about 6 seconds from crash to dash back out on the court. We hear the piece of crap line. We see video once Smart stands up of him either saying "sorry about that" or "you're not my type" depending on the lip reading internet savant you want to trust. Maybe we can locate a third Zapruder film of the missing 1.3 racially charged seconds of stage whispers, but I have no idea why a program would obfuscate in favor of that clown. And the notion that Tech has taken "a very long time" to respond seems bizarre.

Who was on the grassy knoll?

Was there a second spitter?


http://youtu.be/tBz3PqA2Fmc

[Atlanta Duke]

If we're going to start inferring a buncha stuff from nothing, it might be telling that Smart started his presser by apologizing to Orr. Do you do that if a guy dropped an n-bomb or similar language on you?

I suppose it depends on whether you had been told the consequences of not apologizing would result in something significantly greater than a 3 game suspension, including a potential hit to your draft prospects. Hopefully someone with Mr. Smart's best interests at heart (which are not necessarily the same as the best interests of the athletic department) discussed with him what happened and the potential consequences of alternative responses by him today to what happened last night.

[FerryFor50]

Umm, he's referring to Smart, if indeed he lied about the epithet to justify his outburst.

No, he's referring to this thread, I believe.

I don't know what Smart thought he heard. I don't really care. They were both in the wrong.

[FerryFor50]

Well, Smart knows what was said too (or at least he thinks he does). And he's the same guy who has been quite literally LYING on the basketball court to embellish contact, and in some cases, completely make stuff up to get calls. He fully admits this.

I don't know if I believe Orr either, but we have no reason to trust Smart either.

So I think Smart is pretty lame on the court. But I don't think he'd get set off by something like "piece of crap." I think he genuinely heard, or thought he heard, something worse. Regardless, he deserved the suspension.

[crimsonandblue]

No, he's referring to this thread, I believe.

I don't know what Smart thought he heard. I don't really care. They were both in the wrong.

Eh caught me before I deleted. I'll let Kfan address. I certainly understand people thinking there must be more, but I'm afraid Smart may just be a little off lately. Hope he gets it together. He could make money at this game, or he could go Royce White.

[FerryFor50]

Eh caught me before I deleted. I'll let Kfan address. I certainly understand people thinking there must be more, but I'm afraid Smart may just be a little off lately. Hope he gets it together. He could make money at this game, or he could go Royce White.

Yea it's hard to say what his deal is. He didn't seem this... nutty last season.

[Furniture]

I think this is a no win situation all round. Smart and Orr plus on DBR!

[Duvall]

If we're going to start inferring a buncha stuff from nothing, it might be telling that Smart started his presser by apologizing to Orr. Do you do that if a guy dropped an n-bomb or similar language on you?

If you're trying to save your image as a professional athlete for the next decade-plus...yes.

[crimsonandblue]

If you're trying to save your image as a professional athlete for the next decade-plus...yes.

Wouldn't your reputation be further bolstered by an intimation that your actions were in response to a horrid slur? Something like, "I want to apologize for my actions. Regardless of what was said in the crowd, nothing could justify what I did." Instead, we got no attempt to rationalize. Just seems odd. But, again it's odd to think he'd go off to "piece of crap."

[Furniture]

There is nothing in this story anymore. This thread needs to die. I will be very disappointed if the Michael Sam thread gets less posts than this one from now on.

[throatybeard]

I reckon an Avuncular Letter might be in order to restore order.

Worked for us, anyway.

-jk

I gotta disagree, JK. For like one game it did, maybe the rest of 1984.

Then after that, people continued to (1) throw things on the Cameron floor in subsequent seasons, (2) call UNC players illiterate, (3) make posters about alleged liaisons between a UNC player and an assistant coach's wife, (4) make posters about un-alleged homoerotic liaisons between Carolina players but hey we thought it was hilarious in 1996, (5) chant "yo mama can't spell" at Antawn Jamison, (5) chant "Burgess got your Dad fired" at a Michigan player, (6) chant "please don't shoot me" at NC State players who may have been at a party in about 1999 where someone may have been shot but they were not involved themselves.

Now, all of this was either while I was there, or was well-documented in the press before I was there. I'm sure I missed umpteen events that unfolded at other times between 1984 and 1994 that probably would put us in a bad light.

In 2002 or 2003, we in the the Phalanx worked Thomas Nagys over so thoroughly about his sister that I drunkenly felt sorry and went over to the bench during warmups to apologize to him. (Yeah, they let me on the court during warmups. I don't know...this probably wouldn't happen now either). He just hung his head and said "you didn't have to say that about my sister." No, I don't remember what we said. I don't even remember what it was about his sister.

I'd fully respect Nagys if he punched me in the face. I respect him more since he didn't. The 1998 UNC game is a touchstone for my generation. But I'd totally understand Jamison's feelings if he pulled out some sort of laser gun and shot a bunch of us. (Dude had super powers, right?) Jamison blew us a sardonic kiss. Probably the way to go.

The Avuncular Letter fixed nothing in the next two decades. The irony now is that everyone older than 25 complains about how the Crazies aren't edgy enough.

Given all the nasty things we have said to opposing players, my initial gut sympathy was with Smart, not the TTU fan. I don't claim to know the details and none of us do know the details. From the video, it's clear that Smart is reacting after the play to something said. It's not like he charges 20 rows up, and he didn't even punch the guy.

I say all this not to be an apologist for Smart, but because I know nasty fans, and I've been one, and I also don't buy the fan's spinned press release.

I feel the best way to go with the whole thing would be truce, let's never speak of it again. But I don't think a letter from Uncle Terry would mediate it.

The irony is that most of the older Duke fans I know are mad at the current kids for acting civilized.

[-jk]

Uncle Terry's letter did reduce the Crazies' Cameron-wide vulgar chants, even if it didn't stop them. And K will quickly quash any that start even now, 30 years on.

I agree that small pockets of fans will always be unmanageable - it's virtually impossible for game mgt to single out a few fans in the greater chaos of a game. (Ok, perhaps Karl Hess can, at least in Raleigh.)

But to claim Sanford's letter had no effect is, I think, misleading.

-jk

[BD80]

I gotta disagree, JK. For like one game it did, maybe the rest of 1984.

Then after that, people continued to ... (2) call UNC players illiterate, ...

But ...

[CLW]

ESPN just played some video/audio and you can definitely hear "piece of crap" but you cannot tell who said the words (the video/audio came from one of the baseline camera men so the sound is coming from behind the camera). didn't hear any racial slurs.

[allenmurray]

Whether it was a racial slur or not . . . what we have is a wealthy older white guy hurling insults directly at a young black man, and an expectation that the young black man stand there and take, it, not react, and do nothing. Sort of like being called "boy" in a nasty tone of vice, and responding, "Yes sir". Welcome to 1952.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Whether it was a racial slur or not . . . what we have is a wealthy older white guy hurling insults directly at a young black man, and an expectation that the young black man stand there and take, it, not react, and do nothing. Sort of like being called "boy" in a nasty tone of vice, and responding, "Yes sir". Welcome to 1952.

What are you getting at? That Smart should have reacted the way he did? Or that Smart should have been the better man and let it go and report the incident either after the game or during the next time out?

[allenmurray]

What are you getting at? That Smart should have reacted the way he did? Or that Smart should have been the better man and let it go and report the incident either after the game or during the next time out?

What am I getting at is that there is a racial element whether or not a racial slur was used. There is a lengthy history in this country of white privilege allowing older white men to treat younger black men poorly. The Lubbock Texas area is 88% white and less than 8% Black. to act as though there is not a racial element here unless "certain' words were used is naive.

[Troublemaker]

But, again it's odd to think he'd go off to "piece of crap."

The context of what was happening on the court makes it more understandable, imo. I believe Marcus Smart is just one of those hypercompetitive athletes that we often see in sports. The play preceding the confrontation with the fan was OSU fumbling away a chance to tie or win the game in the final seconds, leading to Smart committing a desperation foul. At this point, things looked really bad for OSU's and Smart's chances of winning this game, especially if the TTU player hits two free throws which would basically seal the game for a bad team that OSU should've beaten. Smart, in that moment, probably felt like a bit of a loser already (i.e. like "a piece of crap") so hearing that particular taunt at that particular time set him off. I have no doubt that in road games, he has heard plenty of taunts similar to "piece of crap," especially when he is standing near student sections. He may have even been called "piece of crap" earlier in THIS game. But the timing of this particular insult (and his proximity to the insulter) set off his hypercompetitiveness, leading to a shove. That's my theory, anyway.

[davekay1971]

What am I getting at is that there is a racial element whether or not a racial slur was used. There is a lengthy history in this country of white privilege allowing older white men to treat younger black men poorly. The Lubbock Texas area is 88% white and less than 8% Black. to act as though there is not a racial element here unless "certain' words were used is naive.

Not to get all PPB, and I absolutely respect allenmurray's opinion (on just about everything he has ever written on these boards), but there is also a danger in ascribing a racial element on the basis that the guy acting like a schmuck (in this situation, the fan) is white and the guy being schmucked upon is African American. That kind of assumption leads to the very real possibility of seeing racial motivations where none are intended, which is unfair to all parties involved. If we follow allenmurray's reasoning, you almost have to assume a racial element any time a Caucasian acts like a jerk toward an African American. That's a huge, and dangerous, assumption to make. I would rather we go with what we know: a grown man, who was not in the heat of competition, acted like a jerk and a bully, in that he said something out of bounds to a young man who was in the heat of competition, and I'm sure he said it because he thought he could get away with it because Smart was in a position where he would get punished (ejected and suspended) if he reacted in any significant way.

Of course there is the real possiblity that the grown man's actions had both racist intent and wording, or racist intent without wording, but we don't KNOW that yet. FWIW, watching Smart's reaction to the fan, both the shove and his clear anger and bewilderment afterwards, I don't believe, for one second, that the fan said nothing worse than "piece of crap". I don't know what he said, but I assume it was much worse, and very well could have been a racial slur.

Even if we assume the fan is telling the truth about what he said (and I assume just the opposite), the fan should be punished severely by the university for verbally abusing an opposing player. IMHO, he should be banned from the arena at least for the remainder of the season, and should be prohibited indefinitely from seats anywhere near courtside. Fans have the right to cheer, to boo the refs, to have some fun with the other team...but they do not have the right to be verbally abusive toward the players.

As for the question of what Smart should have done: if the guy said what Smart claims, Smart should have jacked him in the face. I've got a little redneck in me, and in our world, sometimes a person just needs to get their (donkey) kicked.

[uh_no]

Whether it was a racial slur or not . . . what we have is a wealthy older white guy hurling insults directly at a young black man, and an expectation that the young black man stand there and take, it, not react, and do nothing. Sort of like being called "boy" in a nasty tone of vice, and responding, "Yes sir". Welcome to 1952.

taking this to it's conclusion....should most of the crazies stop razzing on most of duke's opponents?

[flyingdutchdevil]

What am I getting at is that there is a racial element whether or not a racial slur was used. There is a lengthy history in this country of white privilege allowing older white men to treat younger black men poorly. The Lubbock Texas area is 88% white and less than 8% Black. to act as though there is not a racial element here unless "certain' words were used is naive.

Ah. Gotcha. No disagreement from here, then.

[Channing]

Whether it was a racial slur or not . . . what we have is a wealthy older white guy hurling insults directly at a young black man, and an expectation that the young black man stand there and take, it, not react, and do nothing. Sort of like being called "boy" in a nasty tone of vice, and responding, "Yes sir". Welcome to 1952.

I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Players of every race, religion, or belief are obligated to ignore whatever comes out of the crowd, and most certainly, under all circumstances, avoid a physical confrontation. There is a very bright line dichotomy at a sporting event between those watching and those playing. Unfortunately, every now and again, a player enters the fans element or a fan enters the player element. In those dangerous encounters, it is incumbent on the player to maintain poise and not react emotionally. From our own backyard, JJ and Paulus were mercilessly taunted and verbally abused. They always handles themselves with class. The comparison everyone is making is the Malice in the Palace. Was Artest justified going into the crown? He had a beer thrown on him which would seem to be a pretty good ignition point, but all of the backlash landed directly on Artest (rightly so) because he could not keep his cool.

When I was in Cameron, I remember a Crazy dressing up in McNugget containers and taunting Nigel Dixon. Everyone thought it was great ... was it fat shaming? I remember a chant of "Sean May's hungry" in lieu of the "Lets get hungry" chant we were doing at the time. Same question.

[dyedwab]

I'm sorry, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Players of every race, religion, or belief are obligated to ignore whatever comes out of the crowd, and most certainly, under all circumstances, avoid a physical confrontation. There is a very bright line dichotomy at a sporting event between those watching and those playing. Unfortunately, every now and again, a player enters the fans element or a fan enters the player element. In those dangerous encounters, it is incumbent on the player to maintain poise and not react emotionally. From our own backyard, JJ and Paulus were mercilessly taunted and verbally abused. They always handles themselves with class. The comparison everyone is making is the Malice in the Palace. Was Artest justified going into the crown? He had a beer thrown on him which would seem to be a pretty good ignition point, but all of the backlash landed directly on Artest (rightly so) because he could not keep his cool.

When I was in Cameron, I remember a Crazy dressing up in McNugget containers and taunting Nigel Dixon. Everyone thought it was great ... was it fat shaming? I remember a chant of "Sean May's hungry" in lieu of the "Lets get hungry" chant we were doing at the time. Same question.


This gets to a different argument. Artest is a pro and that is different. He can't go into the stands, and when he does, he gets punished, and gets a chance to appeal his punishment.

Smart is not a pro. The decision was unilateral. He can't appeal. Essentially, the power relationship between the player, the fans, and the institutions is different.

This isn't to get into the argument about whether we pay players or not. But this is a different case fundamentally then Malice at the Palace.

[Duvall]

taking this to it's conclusion....should most of the crazies stop razzing on most of duke's opponents?

Maybe they *should* focus even more on rooting for Duke.

[Cameron]

Make whatever narrative you want out of this, but please start with an admission that Smart was the architect. The 'snapshot' you showed us was the result of Mr. Smart's actions. He shouldn't have been there at all. I like the mention of JJ, and the taunts he had to endure, especially at Maryland. I doubt very seriously if Smart has heard worse than that.

I have not been part of this conversation to this point, but, just to be clear, saying that Marcus Smart "shouldn't have been there [in the vicinity of the Super Fan]" is completely wrong. Smart was propelled into the stands by his forward motion while running down the court at full speed in an attempt to prevent a Texas Tech transition basket. Smart's progress caused him to fall right in front of the Super Fan, which then presented the Super Fan the opportunity to directly address him face-to-face. It's not as if Smart was just trotting down the court and, upon hearing some trash talk, charged into the bleachers in the direction of the Super Fan in a furious rage. If anything, the Super Fan entered Smart's personal space as Smart was picking himself up off the floor after a routine basketball play by getting into Smart's face to utter whatever demeaning comment was said. It was certainly not the other way around.

He was wrong to physically come into contact with the Super Fan (although, if he really did hear/or believe he heard a racial epithet, I certainly do not blame him for losing his cool in that scenario). Under no circumstances, however, was Marcus Smart the architect of this incident. The Super Fan, who has a documented history of altercations with opposing players, is the culprit/instigator of this incident for saying, in his words, something that he should not have. Which, in all likelihood, was something far more sinister than "piece of crap," as he has claimed. As a grown man, Super Fan or not, he should have known better than to yell something personal in a player's face who has just fallen to the floor after making a basketball play. That is what sparked the incident. Smart was clearly caught off-guard by what was said. Like others, there's no doubt in my mind that the comment was hideous.

The Super Fan is the real bad guy in all of this. Not Marcus Smart. I feel badly for a young and otherwise (from what we have seen in the larger picture) good kid who has simply made a few regrettable, emotionally-charged decisions during an obviously tough period in his life (as far as his basketball career goes). But let's be real here. Those bad decisions involve kicking an empty chair and pushing a fan whom he believes to have called him a racist slur. There are eviler people in the world. Give the kid a break.

[DukeWarhead]

Whether it was a racial slur or not . . . what we have is a wealthy older white guy hurling insults directly at a young black man, and an expectation that the young black man stand there and take, it, not react, and do nothing. Sort of like being called "boy" in a nasty tone of vice, and responding, "Yes sir". Welcome to 1952.

Is it possible to roll your eyes right out of their sockets? If so, I'd better be careful with this one...

[oldnavy]

What am I getting at is that there is a racial element whether or not a racial slur was used. There is a lengthy history in this country of white privilege allowing older white men to treat younger black men poorly. The Lubbock Texas area is 88% white and less than 8% Black. to act as though there is not a racial element here unless "certain' words were used is naive.

I'd be willing to bet that "super fan" is a non-discriminating jerk. I would guess that the only colors that mattered in the moment were Orange and Black and Maroon and Black... Smart was wearing the wrong color of uniform... if he were a TT Raider, "super fan" probably would have wonderful things to say about Marcus...

And, I doubt that "super fan" would be very nice to Aaron Craft from the other OSU either...

I think one thing we can all agree on is that this was neither Smart's or Orr's best moment. Both are probably nicer people away from intense sporting events.

[FerryFor50]

I'd be willing to bet that "super fan" is a non-discriminating jerk. I would guess that the only colors that mattered in the moment were Orange and Black and Maroon and Black... Smart was wearing the wrong color of uniform... if he were a TT Raider, "super fan" probably would have wonderful things to say about Marcus...

And, I doubt that "super fan" would be very nice to Aaron Craft from the other OSU either...

I think one thing we can all agree on is that this was neither Smart's or Orr's best moment. Both are probably nicer people away from intense sporting events.

My theory on humanity in general is that people often show their TRUE nature in the midst of competition. Any behavior in non-competitive scenarios is a facade.

[DukieInKansas]

Can we quit calling the idiot spectator "Super Fan"? In no way has he acted in a way to be considered a Super anything - unless the second word is a three letter word that would translate on here as "I'm a real wanker for saying this! I'm a real wanker for saying this! I'm a real wanker for saying this!".

Smart shouldn't have shoved him, no matter what was said. However, he is 19. Let's all consider, for just a moment, some of the stupid things we did at 19. I hope he learns from this and gets better control of his reactions.

It is one thing for college students to yell things at the players but an adult should just be rooting for his team and not razzing the opponents. And family members of players should be off limits.

[Duke_92]

As for the question of what Smart should have done: if the guy said what Smart claims, Smart should have jacked him in the face. I've got a little redneck in me, and in our world, sometimes a person just needs to get their (donkey) kicked.

My feelings exactly. The economist in me tells Smart to walk away and maximize his future earnings. The Robeson County redneck in me tells Smart to take him down.

[Cameron]

I believe in this case, any reference to the term Super Fan is clearly fueled by sarcasm.

[cato]

From our own backyard, JJ and Paulus were mercilessly taunted and verbally abused. They always handles themselves with class.

That's a bit of a shocker.

3878

[flyingdutchdevil]

Can we quit calling the idiot spectator "Super Fan"? In no way has he acted in a way to be considered a Super anything - unless the second word is a three letter word that would translate on here as "I'm a real wanker for saying this! I'm a real wanker for saying this! I'm a real wanker for saying this!".

Smart shouldn't have shoved him, no matter what was said. However, he is 19. Let's all consider, for just a moment, some of the stupid things we did at 19. I hope he learns from this and gets better control of his reactions.

It is one thing for college students to yell things at the players but an adult should just be rooting for his team and not razzing the opponents. And family members of players should be off limits.

19 year olds do stupid things. Most 19 year olds don't have coaches - who have extensive resources at hand - providing guidance. Most 19 year olds aren't on TV every week. Most 19 year olds aren't going to be millionaires by the time they are 20.

Smart wasn't smart. I agree with you that he shouldn't have pushed the fan, but I don't see how being 19 years old rationalizes it. Smart was wrong, pure and simple. He deserved to be suspended. And the fan? That's a completely different story, IMO.

[johnb]

First off, the fan isn't old. He's two years younger than I am, and I'm young.

2nd, it wasn't much of an "attack," and much less traumatic than what Smart had just experienced while hurling himself into the stands. Yeah, he shouldn't have done it, but it's not the end of the world. Kinda like the Sherman outburst: these players are amped up and hypercompetitive and we expect them to morph instantly into sheepish endomorphs when confronted. I'm amazed conflicts don't happen more often. 3 game suspension sounds about right.

3rd, the modal fan at a college basketball and football game is white and relatively affluent. The modal player is black and relatively poor. Communications between the two have an inevitable racial element that is more noticeable to the black players than the white fans.

I'd imagine opposing fan discomfort with that racial asymmetry lies behind the fact that our most hated players have been white.

And sure, it might help us reconsider our taunts. Fehlwurf! at Detlef Schrempf is funny. Something about class/race/money/mother/sister at a teenage black man. Hmmm.

[SupaDave]

19 year olds do stupid things. Most 19 year olds don't have coaches - who have extensive resources at hand - providing guidance. Most 19 year olds aren't on TV every week. Most 19 year olds aren't going to be millionaires by the time they are 20.

Smart wasn't smart. I agree with you that he shouldn't have pushed the fan, but I don't see how being 19 years old rationalizes it. Smart was wrong, pure and simple. He deserved to be suspended. And the fan? That's a completely different story, IMO.

You obviously have lost touch with being 19. Just ask Miley or the Beibs... Or Drew Barrymore (nude in Playboy at 19). Or Michael Phelps (DUI at 19). Or Robert Downey Jr. (who ironically at about 19 played a drug addict whose life spun out of control). I could easily go on but I hope you get the point...

[oldnavy]

I believe in this case, any reference to the term Super Fan is clearly fueled by sarcasm.

Yes Sir, that's why I used quotation marks...

Also, as far as our true humanity being exposed during competition or stressful events.... well maybe, quite possibly... we are fallen critters after all.

I know personally, I have been at my worst during competitive scenarios, and also back in the day when I would alter my personality with foreign substances...

Age, wisdom and help from above, have made this much less of an issue for me over the past several years :o

[Mike Corey]

First off, the fan isn't old. He's two years younger than I am, and I'm young.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/AlexClarke/Nelson-YoureOld.jpg

[ICP]

Even if we assume the fan is telling the truth about what he said (and I assume just the opposite), the fan should be punished severely by the university for verbally abusing an opposing player. IMHO, he should be banned from the arena at least for the remainder of the season, and should be prohibited indefinitely from seats anywhere near courtside. Fans have the right to cheer, to boo the refs, to have some fun with the other team...but they do not have the right to be verbally abusive toward the players.



I don't know about that, this whole "verbally abusive" concept is so incredibly subjective in my view that applying it in the context of a sporting event might doesn't make much sense to me. There will always be fans who hurl insults at the opposing players, it's part of the fan experience if you will for A LOT of people (think of international soccer games for example, when tens of thousands of fan are far more "verbally abusive" towards the opposing players than this guy, using words I cannot describe here). There is something about being a passionate fan that brings the worst in some men in terms of insulting others, but I doubt that the solution is to ban them. We might end up with "opera crowds" of polite fans with no passion for cheering their team.
Too much is made of this, IMO. Perhaps having grown up in Europe and being a regular on soccer stadiums made me far more accepting of what here you'd call "hotheaded behavior," but these things happen when passions run high. I don't know if this rings a bell to anyone, but the great French player Eric Cantona did something far worse to a fan. Just some perspective:)
3879

[flyingdutchdevil]

You obviously have lost touch with being 19. Just ask Miley or the Beibs... Or Drew Barrymore (nude in Playboy at 19). Or Michael Phelps (DUI at 19). Or Robert Downey Jr. (who ironically at about 19 played a drug addict whose life spun out of control). I could easily go on but I hope you get the point...

I get the point. But do you think that the managers / coaches / reps of these kids don't point out the dangers of being a teenager of a media-frenzied world? I'd be baffled if they don't. You can teach a young dog new tricks, but you can't always expect that dog to act accordingly (new phrase I just created).

Unfortunately, celebrities in their 30s and 40s do this as well. Look at Tiger, any of the Kardashians, Kanye, or a variety of horny politicians.

[oldnavy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/AlexClarke/Nelson-YoureOld.jpg

He certainly is OLD ENOUGH to know better and to behave better....

Smart is 19, and yes he is also old enough to know better, but I would expect the 50 year to be the adult in a situation like this.

It's like my wife tells me when I an goofing off with my 21 and 23 year sons, one of us has to be the "mature one"...

You know, set the example type of stuff....

[gus]

I don't know about that, this whole "verbally abusive" concept is so incredibly subjective in my view that applying it in the context of a sporting event might doesn't make much sense to me. There will always be fans who hurl insults at the opposing players,

http://www.wfuv.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/fuveleven_node/sports/photos/Strawberry.jpg

[Channing]

This gets to a different argument. Artest is a pro and that is different. He can't go into the stands, and when he does, he gets punished, and gets a chance to appeal his punishment.

Smart is not a pro. The decision was unilateral. He can't appeal. Essentially, the power relationship between the player, the fans, and the institutions is different.

This isn't to get into the argument about whether we pay players or not. But this is a different case fundamentally then Malice at the Palace.

I disagree. In both instances a player left the court and went into the stands as part of a play. In both cases a fan did something to the player (beer / insult). In both cases, that action yielded a visceral reaction from the player and caused a physical altercation to ensue. Now, the aftermath will be handled differently, and Artest was older than Smart at the time of the incident. However, in both cases is a fan who paid money to attend an event and overstepped their bounds. I know he is a kid, but he made a conscious decision to play basketball on the national stage - in front of all types of people. To lose your cool (especially if a racial slur wasn't used) because of some racial undertones (perceived or real) is unacceptable.


That's a bit of a shocker.

3878
touche. I guess I should note "classy" is a low bar, in this case, measured by getting into a px altercation with a fan.

[blUDAYvil]

All athletes (indeed all people) should learn from Adam Goodes' (Aussie rules football) response to a slur from a spectator. Of course it should begin with players having the power to point out boorish louts from the audience for immediate ejection from the arena. Had Smart acted similarly, his draft stock would only have improved as a result of the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyrbUiJCkVw

Adam won Australian of the Year 2014.

[cato]

touche. I guess I should note "classy" is a low bar, in this case, measured by getting into a px altercation with a fan.

I agree that JJ should be commended for how he dealt with all of the ish that came his way. He let his game do the talking, which is how it should be done. However, he has said he wasn't proud of some of his showboating, and, let's face it, I couldn't pass up the pun.

[Atlanta Duke]

I agree that JJ should be commended for how he dealt with all of the ish that came his way. He let his game do the talking, which is how it should be done. However, he has said he wasn't proud of some of his showboating, and, let's face it, I couldn't pass up the pun.

JJ did more than showboating but acknowledges he sometimes crossed the line. This recollection of the 2004 game at Maryland.

A chorus of “F*** you, J.J.” began, and as Redick took the pass, he raised his eyes, looked at the student section, and smirked. The shot went through, good for his 26th point, a season high.

“I probably deserved it,” Redick says. “I was sort of a prick.”

Redick says throughout that game, he and Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti, seated courtside, exchanged barbs. “He was talking noise to me the whole game, and I was just yapping back,” Redick says. “I watch video now of me in college, and I just think, What are you doing, man?”

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/i-was-sort-of-a-prick-j-j-redick-on-playing-j-j-redick/

[alteran]

Anytime someone brings up the proper response to hecklers, I'm reminded of this clip of Tony Gwynn, Jr. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTGnh0rcQsc)

Game, set, match, Gwynn.

[allenmurray]

taking this to it's conclusion....should most of the crazies stop razzing on most of duke's opponents?

I don't know, are most of the crazies more than a full generation older than the players they root against? I didn't think so.

It is not just the racial angle, but also the "man vs. boy" element. Orr was in a position where he had all the power - he could do whatever he wanted and expected Smart could do nothing in return but stand there powerless and take it. That is a very similar dynamic to white-black racial relations of just 40 years ago.

Ever been to West Texas?

[uh_no]

I don't know, are most of the crazies more than a full generation older than the players they root against? I didn't think so.

It is not just the racial angle, but also the "man vs. boy" element. Orr was in a position where he had all the power - he could do whatever he wanted and expected Smart could do nothing in return but stand there powerless and take it. That is a very similar dynamic to white-black racial relations of just 40 years ago.

Ever been to West Texas?

Well if we're busy accusing people based on circumstance, and without any evidence, lets take a look at the lacrosse case:

rich white guys
poor black stripper


so there must have been racially and class motivated rape, right? because it just had a racial "feel" to it.....


nothing ticks me off more than accusations without any evidence. the only racial element in this story is the one you are bringing into it.

[-jk]

OK, I think this one has gone full circle.

-jk