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View Full Version : Quicker Release...Dawkins or Redick??



plimnko
02-05-2014, 11:10 AM
both are 2 of the fastest i can think of....

brevity
02-05-2014, 11:23 AM
quickest release.....dawkins or redick??

both are 2 of the fastest i can think of....

Pitino?

flyingdutchdevil
02-05-2014, 11:33 AM
Pitino?

Give this man pitchforks. This joke never gets old.

Matches
02-05-2014, 11:34 AM
Redick. Dawkins has an incredibly quick release, but Redick was... geez...

UrinalCake
02-05-2014, 11:36 AM
I'd have to give it to Redick when you consider how quickly he could receive the ball curling around a screen, gather himself, and get the shot off. Dre doesn't do that as much, he instead likes to receive a handoff and then shoot from behind the handoff-er, which gives him more time. Both guys have perfect form and when they're "on" they're basically impossible to stop.

JJ also used the "pump fake-step to the side-shoot" move really well. Saw Dre do that yesterday, leading to a wide open look.

Arctic Orange
02-05-2014, 11:47 AM
Man, I think I watched every game while JJ was at Duke. That kid was amazing to watch.

BlueDevilBrowns
02-05-2014, 11:55 AM
Pitino?

Really, brevity? I mean, come on man, grow up.

He was comparing who has the best form as a shooter, which clearly the most obvious answer is PJ Hairston.

UrinalCake
02-05-2014, 12:16 PM
The guy who hands out diplomas at UNC

TheTrain
02-05-2014, 12:21 PM
both are 2 of the fastest i can think of....

The quickest that I can remember in the ACC was Curtis Staples of UVA......b.k.a The Staple Gun
Redick was faster than Dawkins....but Staples was in a class of his own (obviously not as efficient as Redick or Dawkins...but that guy fired shots in nanoseconds).

Li_Duke
02-05-2014, 01:41 PM
The quickest that I can remember in the ACC was Curtis Staples of UVA......b.k.a The Staple Gun
Redick was faster than Dawkins....but Staples was in a class of his own (obviously not as efficient as Redick or Dawkins...but that guy fired shots in nanoseconds).

I suppose it's easier to fire off shots faster when you don't bother to aim.

UrinalCake
02-05-2014, 01:54 PM
I would put Staples well above Dawkins if you're talking total offensive ability. The guy held the record for career three pointers before JJ broke it. Dawkins is a long way off of that. Staples shot 39% from 3 his senior year compared to JJ's 42%.

Trinity09
02-05-2014, 02:02 PM
I think you've got to give the nod to JJ. As others have mentioned, he could come around a screen and get shots off with almost no window. He was also fantastic on step-backs and pulling up off the dribble, often in spots where you'd swear he didn't have enough room to get up a shot.

CDu
02-05-2014, 02:05 PM
I actually wouldn't call either Redick's release or Dawkins' release incredibly quick. They both are very good at elevating on their shots. The result is a slower release, but a more difficult shot to challenge. What makes their shots impressive is how quickly they can get into position to shoot given that they take a true jumper with good elevation. It takes more time, but it's impressive how much they do in that time.

A guy like Steph Curry (and his father Dell) has a much quicker release, as neither guy got off the ground much to take their shot.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 02:27 PM
I would put Staples well above Dawkins if you're talking total offensive ability. The guy held the record for career three pointers before JJ broke it. Dawkins is a long way off of that. Staples shot 39% from 3 his senior year compared to JJ's 42%.

Quick release, Staples had Andre beat. Total offensive abililty? I think all Staples had on Andre is minutes played. Here are comparative stats for Staples's senior season vs. Andre's senior season:



Curtis Staples Andre Dawkins
3-pt attempts per 40 minutes 11.36 13.64
3-pointers made per 40 minutes 4.43 6.53
oRating 112.1 135.5
eFG% 56.3% 68.9%
True Shooting% 58.8% 70.9%
Threes as a % of points 71.8% 75.3%
Free throw rate 23.6% 21.4%
Defensive rebound % 10.6% 10.3%
Offensive rebound % 3.0% 1.3%
Assist percentage 10.3% 6.2%
Turnover percentage 16.6% 9.9%
A/TO ratio 0.8 0.8


So, based on the above, if Andre had played the same minutes as Staples, then Andre might have that record. As far as total offensive ability, Staples has very small advantages in offensive rebounding and assists (although also more turnovers), and got to the line a teensy bit more, but Andre's oRating is a whole lot better. Basically, they're the same player, except Andre shoots WAY better. I'd say overall, if you assume Andre would perform the same given increased minutes, he has far more offensive ability than Staples because he's so much more efficient.

UrinalCake
02-05-2014, 02:38 PM
A guy like Steph Curry (and his father Dell) has a much quicker release, as neither guy got off the ground much to take their shot.

Sports Science agrees
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HOiH1eVCggw

As to Dawkins vs. Staples, it is true that if Andre played the same number of minutes he would put up better numbers. But he doesn't. And I would argue that if he played more minutes, then his per-minute averages would go down. Coming off the bench and scoring 15 points in 15 minutes is one thing. Sustaining that for 30 minutes is a lot harder.

And obviously if you consider their entire careers rather than just their senior seasons, it's a much different picture.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 03:17 PM
Sports Science agrees
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HOiH1eVCggw

As to Dawkins vs. Staples, it is true that if Andre played the same number of minutes he would put up better numbers. But he doesn't. And I would argue that if he played more minutes, then his per-minute averages would go down. Coming off the bench and scoring 15 points in 15 minutes is one thing. Sustaining that for 30 minutes is a lot harder.

And obviously if you consider their entire careers rather than just their senior seasons, it's a much different picture.

Yeah, I don't know if Andre could keep it up for 30 minutes or not. But if he did, I bet his numbers would be as good and probably better than Staples's numbers.

As for their entire careers, Staples generally played on bad Virginia teams and was pretty much the first or second option his whole career. If Andre had been in that situation his numbers would have been amazing.

Put another way, in my mind Staples advantage over Andre was one of opportunity, rather than total offensive ability.

dukelifer
02-05-2014, 03:20 PM
both are 2 of the fastest i can think of....

Great shooters can have a funny looking jumper- like Steph curry- but both Redick and Dawkins have pretty jumpers- good elevation, great arc, smooth release and great follow through. But who has the prettiest jumper? I am going with Dawkins but it is very close. Note that Steph's jumper is nice- but his follow through can be very quick (as his release).

rsvman
02-05-2014, 03:25 PM
Quickest release?

Justin Bieber, maybe?




But on a basketball note, as much as I hate to say it, given what I saw on Saturday and in last night's Syracuse/Notre Dame game, I'd have to put Cooney into the conversation.


But it's JJ over Andre, if those are the only two guys we're considering.

jv001
02-05-2014, 03:37 PM
Great shooters can have a funny looking jumper- like Steph curry- but both Redick and Dawkins have pretty jumpers- good elevation, great arc, smooth release and great follow through. But who has the prettiest jumper? I am going with Dawkins but it is very close. Note that Steph's jumper is nice- but his follow through can be very quick (as his release).

I agree both JJ and Andre have beautiful jumpers and for the reasons you mentioned. I can't choose between the two because they are so much alike. I wish Matt Jones would take a long look at how both shoot the ball. Matt does not get much if any elevation and seems to shoot a push shot. I wish he would work on that. I noticed last night on his free throws, he takes a very deep knee bend and uses his legs a lot on his FTs. For someone that was supposed to be a very good shooter, I have not seen it yet. GoDuke!

gus
02-05-2014, 07:25 PM
Obviously JJ is an amazing shooter and scorer, but if I were teaching someone how to shoot, I would use videos of dawkins.

Dawkins gets much better rotation than JJ, and JJ has slight hitch to the right with his hand.

But... if JJ shot the same shots Dawkins does... he'd probably have hit more than 50%. Redick is simply unbelievable.

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 08:58 PM
Kedsy--where do you get these incredible statistics from? :)


Quick release, Staples had Andre beat. Total offensive abililty? I think all Staples had on Andre is minutes played. Here are comparative stats for Staples's senior season vs. Andre's senior season:



Curtis Staples Andre Dawkins
3-pt attempts per 40 minutes 11.36 13.64
3-pointers made per 40 minutes 4.43 6.53
oRating 112.1 135.5
eFG% 56.3% 68.9%
True Shooting% 58.8% 70.9%
Threes as a % of points 71.8% 75.3%
Free throw rate 23.6% 21.4%
Defensive rebound % 10.6% 10.3%
Offensive rebound % 3.0% 1.3%
Assist percentage 10.3% 6.2%
Turnover percentage 16.6% 9.9%
A/TO ratio 0.8 0.8


So, based on the above, if Andre had played the same minutes as Staples, then Andre might have that record. As far as total offensive ability, Staples has very small advantages in offensive rebounding and assists (although also more turnovers), and got to the line a teensy bit more, but Andre's oRating is a whole lot better. Basically, they're the same player, except Andre shoots WAY better. I'd say overall, if you assume Andre would perform the same given increased minutes, he has far more offensive ability than Staples because he's so much more efficient.

DukeHLM'13
02-05-2014, 08:59 PM
A guy like Steph Curry (and his father Dell) has a much quicker release, as neither guy got off the ground much to take their shot.

I was lucky to get to see a lot of Davidson games while Steph was there, I grew up like 15 minutes away from the school, and every single time I went to a game I was amazed at how quickly he could get his shot off. Defenders were completely helpless to try to even get a hand up before the ball was already half way to the basket.

I was born and bred watching Duke basketball and the things that Curry did still blew my mind, even after 4 years of getting to watch JJ knock down 3s from a few counties over.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 09:17 PM
Kedsy--where do you get these incredible statistics from? :)

Assuming you really wish to know, I use statsheet.com (http://statsheet.com/mcb) and sports-reference.com (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/). And in the case of the stats you quoted, I calculated the per 40 numbers myself (sports-reference gives per 40 numbers but I don't think they go back quite as far as Curtis Staples).

ricks68
02-05-2014, 10:06 PM
Great shooters can have a funny looking jumper- like Steph curry- but both Redick and Dawkins have pretty jumpers- good elevation, great arc, smooth release and great follow through. But who has the prettiest jumper? I am going with Dawkins but it is very close. Note that Steph's jumper is nice- but his follow through can be very quick (as his release).

Verga.

(I also wouldn't put it past JJ that he patterned his jumper after Verga's. And if he really did, it was a very, very smart move on his part.)

ricks

kAzE
02-05-2014, 10:29 PM
Neither of them have a quick release . . . Matt Jones' shot has a quicker release than either one. Steph Curry has a quick release, Ray Allen does as well. JJ and Dawkins both have a normal release timing, but both of them jump really high in the air when they shoot it, that's the best part of their shots. However, their success has little to do with the quickness of their release.

UrinalCake
02-05-2014, 10:58 PM
Yeah, I don't know if Andre could keep it up for 30 minutes or not. But if he did, I bet his numbers would be as good and probably better than Staples's numbers.

As for their entire careers, Staples generally played on bad Virginia teams and was pretty much the first or second option his whole career. If Andre had been in that situation his numbers would have been amazing.

Put another way, in my mind Staples advantage over Andre was one of opportunity, rather than total offensive ability.


The flip side of playing on a bad team is that you draw most of the defense's attention. Dawkins gets a lot of good looks and doesn't have to create for himself. If he's not open, he can just pass the ball to someone else and let them shoot it, since he's not expected to carry the load. Which is why his efficiency numbers are off the charts. Don't get me wrong, I love that he can fill that role for this team because it's exactly what we need, I just don't think he'd be putting up the same numbers if he was playing 30 minutes a game and expected to be the primary scorer.

But I've managed to unintentionally sidetrack this thread... we're talking about who has the quickest release, and along with that who has the nicest looking shot. I know Ray Allen is usually in this conversation, but to me his form looks unconventional (while still being fundamentally sound) and his release doesn't seem that quick. Maybe because he starts with the ball so low...

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 11:22 PM
The flip side of playing on a bad team is that you draw most of the defense's attention. Dawkins gets a lot of good looks and doesn't have to create for himself. If he's not open, he can just pass the ball to someone else and let them shoot it, since he's not expected to carry the load. Which is why his efficiency numbers are off the charts. Don't get me wrong, I love that he can fill that role for this team because it's exactly what we need, I just don't think he'd be putting up the same numbers if he was playing 30 minutes a game and expected to be the primary scorer.

But I've managed to unintentionally sidetrack this thread... we're talking about who has the quickest release, and along with that who has the nicest looking shot. I know Ray Allen is usually in this conversation, but to me his form looks unconventional (while still being fundamentally sound) and his release doesn't seem that quick. Maybe because he starts with the ball so low...

Staples may have chucked it up nearly every time he touched the ball, but I doubt anybody would have accused him of creating his own shot. He had a very quick release, which allowed him to shoot even when defenders were close, but he also had a somewhat unconventional form. If Andre was our #1 option, we'd screen for him like we screened for JJ, with (in my opinion) similar results. So I think his stats would translate very well to 30 mpg, and he would have carried the load just fine, but I acknowledge that we'll never know. Obviously if K thought Andre could be JJ he'd give him more minutes, so it's likely something's going on that I'm not taking into account.

Wander
02-06-2014, 07:22 AM
Guys, Andre Dawkins is awesome, and I'm happy to have him and have him playing as well as he is lately. But JJ Redick and Stephen Curry are the best 3 point shooters in college basketball history (after the 3 point line was introduced). There's no comparison. There's a reason Redick and Curry were both lottery picks and guys like Wayne Ellington, Andre Dawkins, and Chris Lofton are not, and it's not because of athleticism or defense.

dukelifer
02-06-2014, 08:30 AM
Guys, Andre Dawkins is awesome, and I'm happy to have him and have him playing as well as he is lately. But JJ Redick and Stephen Curry are the best 3 point shooters in college basketball history (after the 3 point line was introduced). There's no comparison. There's a reason Redick and Curry were both lottery picks and guys like Wayne Ellington, Andre Dawkins, and Chris Lofton are not, and it's not because of athleticism or defense.

I am pretty sure it was because of the shooting AND everything else they did. Even the kid from Oakland shoots it at the same percentage as JJ and now has more threes but I wager that he is probably not as complete.

gus
02-06-2014, 08:48 AM
I am pretty sure it was because of the shooting AND everything else they did. Even the kid from Oakland shoots it at the same percentage as JJ and now has more threes but I wager that he is probably not as complete.

Redick is that much better a shooter.

The shots JJ had to shoot were often ridiculous. And he made over 40% of them.

If he had had the luxury of taking the shots Andre gets to shoot (primarily pass and shoot with a defender usually late to pressure), he'd have hit above 50. And duke would have lost more games.

Watch some of the clips of his college games. The work he does to get open, the shots curling off a screen, sometimes 6-8 feet behind the arc... Redick is amazing. I think Andre's form is better, but Redick is in a different class.

CDu
02-06-2014, 09:08 AM
Neither of them have a quick release . . . Matt Jones' shot has a quicker release than either one. Steph Curry has a quick release, Ray Allen does as well. JJ and Dawkins both have a normal release timing, but both of them jump really high in the air when they shoot it, that's the best part of their shots. However, their success has little to do with the quickness of their release.

Exactly. They don't have incredibly quick releases. What they DO do quickly is make the transition from catch into a good shooting motion. They both are able do that EXTREMELY quickly. They don't need much time to settle and prepare for the shot. That, combined with the elevation they get on their jumper, is what makes them so deadly (along with phenomenal touch, of course).

But in terms of release quickness, Curry (Dell and Steph) and Ray Allen blow them away. Matt Jones does appear to have that quick release as well, although (to date) his results haven't warranted discussion with the others on this list.

rsvman
02-06-2014, 01:14 PM
.....DO do .....

[Butthead voice] huh-huh, huh-huh, huh-huh.....He said doo-doo....heh-heh[/Butthead voice]





*Sorry. Couldn't resist*