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tecumseh
09-04-2007, 10:50 PM
I think the Dream Team of the 1992 in Bacelona was overrated and I would take the 2008 edition over them. People see the names and go WOW but forget Bird was old and had a bad back and was nonfactor, Magic was HIV positive and had already retired both of these players were well past their prime. Jordan was in his prime but in the international game he was no better an offensive player than Kobe...Kobe is a much better shooter, Jordan a better defender. I will take Carmelo over Karl Malone, I will take Jason Kidd over a retired Magic Johnson, I will certainly take LeBron over a hurt Larry Bird.

Cameron
09-05-2007, 12:54 AM
^^You seem to be forgetting Charles Barkley (in his prime), Clyde Drexler (in his prime), John Stockton (in his prime), Patrick Ewing (in his prime), Scottie Pippen (in his prime), David Robinson (in his prime), Chris Mullin (in his prime), and, of course, our beloved Christian Laettner.

If Larry, Magic, Michael, and Malone weren't the "main attractions," then I'd say the 1992 team was, to use a pop culture term, pretty kick a**.

No team in the history of basketball, before or after, has ever come close to the mystique and greatness of the Original Dream Team. It was, and still remains, a team for the ages.

"You will see a team of professionals in the Olympics again, but I don't think you'll see another team quite like this. This was a majestic team."

-1992 USA Coach Chuck Daly

Cameron
09-05-2007, 01:07 AM
I'd even take the 1996 Team USA over the 2008 edition.

Charles Barkley
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Karl Malone
Reggie Miller
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Mitch Richmond
David Robinson
John Stockton

That's one hell of a team, and might have even given 1992 a run for their money.

tecumseh
09-05-2007, 09:08 AM
Yes, Yes I know but even Sir Charles was on the downside of his career, his best years were in Philly. David Robinson was great but center play does not seem so important in international play. John Stockton's game feeding the low post and a less physical game is not a great match for the international game.

The mystique of the team was great and let's face it the international teams were not so hot so the competition was lacking. The competition was similar to this FIBA tourney of the Americas. In the Dream Team era there were like 20 foreign born players in the NBA now there are over 80. There is no reason to think the Dream Team did not suffer from what plagued other US Teams ...lack of playing together, they just did not have to play anyone good.

I still stand by my original claim play the Dream Team that got off the plane in Barecelona against the one that gets off the plane in Beijing and I will take the 08 version to win.

Cameron
09-05-2007, 12:25 PM
Yes, Yes I know but even Sir Charles was on the downside of his career [in the '92 Olympics]

Really? I guess the NBA made a fatal mistake then by handing him the NBA's Most Valuable Player Award a year later.

Clipsfan
09-05-2007, 01:05 PM
Yes, Yes I know but even Sir Charles was on the downside of his career, his best years were in Philly. David Robinson was great but center play does not seem so important in international play. John Stockton's game feeding the low post and a less physical game is not a great match for the international game.

The mystique of the team was great and let's face it the international teams were not so hot so the competition was lacking. The competition was similar to this FIBA tourney of the Americas. In the Dream Team era there were like 20 foreign born players in the NBA now there are over 80. There is no reason to think the Dream Team did not suffer from what plagued other US Teams ...lack of playing together, they just did not have to play anyone good.

I still stand by my original claim play the Dream Team that got off the plane in Barecelona against the one that gets off the plane in Beijing and I will take the 08 version to win.

The 2008 team is more athletic, but I don't think that a team with no center can match up against a team that was as solid all-around as the 1992 team while also having two of the best centers to play the game in their prime. Who on the 2008 team is going to guard Ewing and Robinson? I like Amare and Howard, but they're not real centers.

hc5duke
09-05-2007, 01:13 PM
C'mon let's be serious...

1992 > 1996 > 2008* > 2000 > 2004

* projected standing since they haven't actually competed yet

tecumseh
09-05-2007, 01:38 PM
The international game usually does not feature center play much. OK Charles was near the top of his game but I still contend his best years were with Philly, the 76ers were just not a very good team.

But who exactly did the Dream Team beat...Angola? Their gold medal game was against Croatia who had Pretrovic and Kukoc but I would certainly take the Argentina team of Delfino (Raptors) Manu Ginobillo (Spurs, NBA all star) Scola (Rockets) Nocioni (Bulls) Oberto (Spurs) and others over Croatia 92. The Dream Team was just exactly that a dream, we can dream about how good they were but they never played anyone good so what can you really tell. I still say they were overrated, they did not play together much or understand the international game and later when the competition improved USA basketball realized how important that was.
I take Kobe, LeBron, Carmello, J Kidd over those retro guys.

dukeENG2003
09-05-2007, 05:37 PM
I'll take the 2008 team, better team play, and better athletes (and defense). Its a difficult comparison b/c of the huge gap in the competition though. We'll know more when we see the '08 team actually play some real competition, but so far its hard to knock them. Honestly, I think the Argentina team we beat in the finals would have ripped through the '92 field (except for, of course, the dream team). If the dream team had to face real competition, I don't think they would have gelled as well as this team did.

The dream team DEFINITELY had a better center, but really, the trapezoidal lane neutralizes a back to the basket center pretty well, not to mention, the "dream shake" would be called a walk by FIBA officials, as it should have been his whole career.

hc5duke
09-05-2007, 06:28 PM
the "dream shake" would be called a walk by FIBA officials, as it should have been his whole career.

HOW DARE YOU! YOU SIR ARE CRAZY! THERE IS NO WAY!

(p.s. yes, it was a walk, but who cares :-p MJ shoved, Hakeem walked, and Barkeley was 5'10" in real life...)

mkirsh
09-05-2007, 06:56 PM
As much as I love the 2008 team, it's hard to say the talent stacks up to the 92 team.

By position (roughly):

Stockton & Magic vs Kidd & Williams

Jordan, Drexler, & Mullin vs Kobe, Redd, Billups, and Miller

Pippen, Barkley & Bird vs Lebron & Anthony

Malone & Laettner vs Amare & Prince

Ewing & Robinson vs Howard & Chandler


I might take Kidd over a retired Magic, Kobe over Drexler, Lebron over an ailing Bird, and Carmello over Laettner, but I think the 92 team takes most of these matchups in a pretty big way. You could argue that the 2008 team has slightly better shooting, but I'd still rather take the 92 team to face Argentina, Greece, Spain, etc in the next Olympics.

tecumseh
09-05-2007, 08:14 PM
A team is more than just a sum of its parts. Part of my argument is this team is more of team and has played together more much more. They also have better coaching. Also international play is different and negates center play and puts more of premium on outside shooting (Kobe vs Jordan). More of a premium on physical point guard play (Stockton vs Kidd). Less low post play (Carmello vs Malone).

Cameron
09-06-2007, 01:42 AM
They also have better coaching [2008 versus 1992].

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Coach K, remember, was also apart of the 1992 Dream Team as an assistant coach. And he, alongside one of the greatest NBA minds of his time, Chuck Daly, made one hell of a duo. We are talking about two of the greatest minds (Daly defensively, and K All-worldy) the basketball world has ever seen, coaching the greatest team ever assembled. It doesn't get much better than that.

Coach K had just come off winning back to back national titles in college basketball while coaching on the Dream Team, and Daly just two years removed from back to back championships of his own in the NBA. Yeah, I would say that is one hell of a coaching combo.

(It's not that I dislike you, tecumseh, I just don't agree:))

tecumseh
09-06-2007, 07:41 AM
I just put that coaching comment out to pacify the masses.

devildownunder
09-07-2007, 10:05 AM
I'm not sure I've ever seen a debate staged based on a body of essential evidence that was less complete than in this one. The Dream Team never received any true tests, and never could have because players and teams who may have been able to compete with them were in awe and thus were rendered harmless. So while the basketball skill and savvy on that team may indeed be unmatched in the history of the game, the squad never truly endered the crucible of international competition the way all other u.s. teams have.

As for the 2008 team, obviously there is no basis for even discussing them as great...or terrible or anything else. It's only 2007. Their Olympics isn't even here yet. The statements being made are based on their accomplishments against a severely watered-down field on their home turf. Playing in Beijing against Spain, Greece, the REAL Argentina and company is a completely different story.

I'd be so thrilled if we could have a serious discussion about the 2008 team's greatness when it has completed the Olympics as gold medalists but right now there is no evidence to compare.

phaedrus
09-08-2007, 01:24 AM
you mean former duke assistant chuck daly? two dukies coaching the same team... beats the hell out of larry brown, no?

Hector Vector
09-10-2007, 12:45 PM
While it is correct that Bird was truly at the end of his career, and more a name than a huge factor on that team, Magic was only in retirement because of HIV, and still an absolutely exceptional player. He was basically the same age as Kidd is now.

Even if you give the perimeter group of Kobe, Lebron, Carmelo, Kidd, Billups, Redd as slight edge over Jordan, Magic, Mullin, Drexler, Pippen, Stockton, and I wouldn't, the inside capability of Robinson, Ewing, Barkely, Malone is so superior to Howard, Stoudemaire, and Tyson Chandler, that the Dream Team has to be rated higher.

It is a fair point that the international competition that the Dream Team faced is not equal to what the 2008 team will face. But that's WILL face; the 2008 edition's 40 pt wins are against competition that is significantly inferior to the best teams it will play in the Olympics. I expect them to win, but not near the walkover that we just witnessed.

Carlos
09-11-2007, 02:51 PM
As much as I love the 2008 team, it's hard to say the talent stacks up to the 92 team.

By position (roughly):

Stockton & Magic vs Kidd & Williams

Jordan, Drexler, & Mullin vs Kobe, Redd, Billups, and Miller

Pippen, Barkley & Bird vs Lebron & Anthony

Malone & Laettner vs Amare & Prince

Ewing & Robinson vs Howard & Chandler


I might take Kidd over a retired Magic, Kobe over Drexler, Lebron over an ailing Bird, and Carmello over Laettner, but I think the 92 team takes most of these matchups in a pretty big way. You could argue that the 2008 team has slightly better shooting, but I'd still rather take the 92 team to face Argentina, Greece, Spain, etc in the next Olympics.

I think you're going to have to revise that comparison for the 2008 team.

Point Guard - Magic & Stockton / Kidd & Billups

I think Kidd in 2008 may be better than what Magic and Stockton were in 1992, but Billups is clearly the last guy in that group. BTW, both Dream Teamers were on the NBA's 50 Greatest list from 1997.

Wing Players - Jordan, Drexler, Mullin, & Pippen / Kobe, Lebron, DWade, & Redd
First, you can just forget about Mike Miller being on the Olympic team. Mike, thanks a bunch for your work in Vegas, but DWade's healthy now, mmkay? This group is actually closer than you would think. Sure, three out of the four guys from the Dream Team were on that 50 list, but if that list is revised in 2012 when this generation has a legacy you can bet that Kobe, Lebron, and DWade are going to be in the mix. Mullin & Redd are about at wash. Jordan is Jordan and Kobe is not Jordan. But he's pretty special anyhow. Lebron has shown himself to be able to carry a team... something that neither Drexler or Pippen were really known for.

Baseline Forwards - Barkley, Bird, Malone, & Laettner / Carmelo & (Prince or Bosh or Marion or Lamar Odom or Durant)
And here's where the idea of 2008 being better than 1992 should stop. First, throw out Laettner because we all know he was only there because of a great college career and the fact that K was an assistant. Yep, Bird was really at the end of his career and had all the mobility of a rock. But he still averaged 20 points, 9 rebounds, and shot 40% from three that year in the NBA. Malone was in the prime of his career and as someone mentioned, all Barkley did was go on and win the MVP the next year. For the 2008 squad Carmelo has been the cornerstone of the qualifying teams and will be a key component in China. But he's still not in the same league as that troika that 1992 had.


Power Players - Ewing & Robinson / Howard, Stoudemire, & (Boozer or Brand or Brad Miller)
Hey, I'm not a huge Patrick Ewing fan. But he somehow ended up on the 50 list and David Robinson was a dominant player back in then and for several years to come. Now, perhaps someday we'll see Howard and Stoudemire in that same place. And I also think that either Boozer or Brand will be on the squad in 2008. But at best this comes out a draw for the 2008 team.

I do come up with the same conclusion - I just don't see any way that the 2008 team can be considered top to bottom to be a better squad than the original Dream Team.

Cameron
09-12-2007, 12:23 PM
One more thing:

Pippen, Sir Charles, and Larry Legend (bad back and all) circa 1992 would destroy LBJ and Mello and whomever else Team USA 2008 could find off the street.

Remember Larry's 49 vs. Clyde the Glide and the Trail Blazers in March of 1992? Legends are Legends.

And as for Scottie and Barkley, they were two of the five greatest players of the 1990s, along with Jordan, Olajawon, and Malone (in my humble opinion, of course:)) One could even argue that Scottie was the second greatest all-around player of the decade, next to Michael himself. Scottie and Charles were, simply put, better than James and Mello.

mapei
09-12-2007, 01:39 PM
Almost everyone we're talking about is a great player, but you are selling Kobe and LeBron way short IMO. I'll take them over all of the original Dream Team's wing players except Jordan. I loved Pippen's game, especially on D and on the fast break; I think he got short shrift in the media. But I'd pick those two new guys first.