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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 83, Wake Forest 63 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
02-04-2014, 11:20 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Duvall
02-04-2014, 11:24 PM
Beaten on both backboards by Wake Forest? Duke has to do better than that.

Saratoga2
02-04-2014, 11:24 PM
Still a concern with high foul count on Hood and Parker. Can we do more to protect them with substitutions.

Nice Offensive game for Andre in around 15 minutes played

FireOgilvie
02-04-2014, 11:24 PM
Solid win, although the Wake players seemed like they were dead inside. Not much energy.

FerryFor50
02-04-2014, 11:27 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Slow, uneven start. Bad offense + bad defense + Wake hitting everything made this game seem like it might be in question.

Then Duke remembered they were Duke. And Wake remembered they were... well, Wake.

Defense still wasn't great, but got better mid-way in the game. Energy was there, but too many open drives. At least they cut that back door dunk garbage out. They also forced 18 turnovers to only 7 assists for Wake.

Sulaimon has really turned a corner... played great.

Parker also had a nice game... played in the post well and was efficient. Then he reverted to bad habits of the step back jumper...

Dawkins was awesome, too.

TT was a menace on defense. So was Matt Jones. And Sheed. Interior guys were a little off today.

Hood looked frustrated all game. Cook is still battling those ankle injuries. Need him healthy...

TONS of whistles. 50 combined fouls. Duke had 28. And a lot of them were deserved. The team has to play better D without fouling. Wake went to the line 32 times.

roywhite
02-04-2014, 11:30 PM
If there is an All-conference Pouty Face team, Devin Thomas is a lock.

UrinalCake
02-04-2014, 11:40 PM
The schedule worked out in our favor as we were able to cruise to an easy win. The energy wasn't there the whole game, but an emotional letdown was expected after Saturday's game. Tyler had a really good game. Was hoping to see more out of MP3 but I'll take a comfortable win at home.

Furniture
02-04-2014, 11:41 PM
The game was a grind. As predicted by some there was a slight Cuse hangover but a win is a win. Some positives were; Sheed was awesome! Andre scored very well for his limited minutes. Some might complain about Jabari but he does the job. Semi's three at the end was a thing out of the Dawkins 3 point shooting handbook! TT did a great job, 5 assists and 3 steals. Cook can't get any worse, there has to be an upside.

meowmix911
02-04-2014, 11:46 PM
I am now starting to believe that Sheed at the point/combo guard, used like Nolan in 2010/2011 is what can make this team advance down the stretch. We've always known he's better with the ball in his hand, but we are now starting to realize he's the teams best one-on-one penetrator, and has a pretty nasty crossover. His point guard skills are evolving rapidly--I believe his future is as a combo guard, and that going in that direction can help this team rise to new level.

kAzE
02-04-2014, 11:47 PM
Good effort at home, the level of play was a bit down from the Syracuse game, but that was to be expected.

- Sulaimon looked really good again. He's really developed into a nice ball handler. He still doesn't make the best decisions at times, but he's the quickest guy on the team, and can really get into the paint. He actually finished on a few contact layups (both with his left hand!), which is a good sign. He's actually become the point guard while Cook is hurting/slumping. He's a more creative passer than Cook, but not as accurate, highlighted by that wild overthrow on the alley-oop attempt to Hood in the 2nd half. That first half dime to Plumlee should have been an assist though, Plumlee wasn't paying attention at all.

- Speaking of Cook, I wasn't totally sold that he was being bothered by that twisted ankle, but at this point, that's the only explanation left for his extremely passive play lately. He's basically only settling for long jumpers, and seems hesitant to take it inside strong. He knocked down 2 threes in this game, but has been way off lately from deep, and making lazy passes as well. I called it that Sulaimon would start in his place this game, hoping that coming off the bench would spark something in Cook, but it seems that he's still not 100% either physically or mentally right now.

- It was an off night for Jefferson, who had been our best player, in my estimation, for the past 6 games. I'm not sure why his minutes were so limited, but even when he was in the game, he wasn't playing with his usual level of energy and aggressiveness, getting uncharacteristically outhustled for several loose balls and rebounds. Bit of a head scratcher, but more than likely just an off night for him. Luckily it was a game where we didn't need him.

- Jabari's shot selection is getting much better. He still had a couple of step back jumpers, but I thought the one from the baseline in the second half off a nice dribble move was a decent look. Elmore mentioned that he's been taking a lot more shots in the paint lately, and it's really helped his shooting percentages. He played poorly defensively for parts of this game, though. He got caught standing around in the paint when his man caught the ball on the perimeter a couple of times, allowing them space to drive and get fouled. Granted, it wasn't a close game, but a little bit more effort on defense would be nice.

Overall, we had a couple of guys who seemed to be suffering from a bit of a lull after the biggest game on the regular season schedule, but I thought Sulaimon, Thornton, and then Parker in the 2nd half really carried us through this one. We seemed to be uninterested in playing solid defense on the interior, opting instead to foul repeatedly every time they went inside, which, I guess wasn't a terrible strategy against a mediocre free throw shooting team. Still, I would have liked to see less reaching, and more foot movement on D. Really hope Cook and Jefferson get back to playing at a high level next game, and that Sulaimon continues this recent tear that he's been on. He's been terrific. Go Duke!

Furniture
02-04-2014, 11:56 PM
Good effort at home, the level of play was a bit down from the Syracuse game, but that was to be expected.

- Sulaimon looked really good again. He's really developed into a nice ball handler. He still doesn't make the best decisions at times, but he's the quickest guy on the team, and can really get into the paint. He actually finished on a few contact layups (both with his left hand!), which is a good sign. He's actually become the point guard while Cook is hurting/slumping. He's a more creative passer than Cook, but not as accurate, highlighted by that wild overthrow on the alley-oop attempt to Hood in the 2nd half. That first half dime to Plumlee should have been an assist though, Plumlee wasn't paying attention at all.

- Speaking of Cook, I wasn't totally sold that he was being bothered by that twisted ankle, but at this point, that's the only explanation left for his extremely passive play lately. He's basically only settling for long jumpers, and seems hesitant to take it inside strong. He knocked down 2 threes in this game, but has been way off lately from deep, and making lazy passes as well. I called it that Sulaimon would start in his place this game, hoping that coming off the bench would spark something in Cook, but it seems that he's still not 100% either physically or mentally right now.

- It was an off night for Jefferson, who had been our best player, in my estimation, for the past 6 games. I'm not sure why his minutes were so limited, but even when he was in the game, he wasn't playing with his usual level of energy and aggressiveness, getting uncharacteristically outhustled for several loose balls and rebounds. Bit of a head scratcher, but more than likely just an off night for him. Luckily it was a game where we didn't need him.

- Jabari's shot selection is getting much better. He still had a couple of step back jumpers, but I thought the one from the baseline in the second half off a nice dribble move was a decent look. Elmore mentioned that he's been taking a lot more shots in the paint lately, and it's really helped his shooting percentages. He played poorly defensively for parts of this game, though. He got caught standing around in the paint when his man caught the ball on the perimeter a couple of times, allowing them space to drive and get fouled. Granted, it wasn't a close game, but a little bit more effort on defense would be nice.

Overall, we had a couple of guys who seemed to be suffering from a bit of a lull after the biggest game on the regular season schedule, but I thought Sulaimon, Thornton, and then Parker in the 2nd half really carried us through this one. We seemed to be uninterested in playing solid defense on the interior, opting instead to foul repeatedly every time they went inside, which, I guess wasn't a terrible strategy against a mediocre free throw shooting team. Still, I would have liked to see less reaching, and more foot movement on D. Really hope Cook and Jefferson get back to playing at a high level next game, and that Sulaimon continues this recent tear that he's been on. He's been terrific. Go Duke!

Very good post. Jabari had the best FG% of the team. Nobody can complain if he tries a couple of jumpers.

azzefkram
02-04-2014, 11:56 PM
That first half dime to Plumlee should have been an assist though, Plumlee wasn't paying attention at all.!

That was a bad pass. Plumlee's back was to Sheed as he was blocking out and looking for the rebound.

tbyers11
02-05-2014, 12:05 AM
Slow, uneven start. Bad offense + bad defense + Wake hitting everything made this game seem like it might be in question.

Then Duke remembered they were Duke. And Wake remembered they were... well, Wake.

Defense still wasn't great, but got better mid-way in the game. Energy was there, but too many open drives. At least they cut that back door dunk garbage out. They also forced 18 turnovers to only 7 assists for Wake.


Agree with this entirely. Start was a bit of a hangover. Looked kind of hesitant on both ends. Some bad D combined Wake hitting some crazy shots in the first 10 minutes made me sweat a bit.

Then we played very well from about the 5 min mark of the 1st half to the 10 minute mark of the 2nd half. Great pressure D. Better decision making and passing on O led to good looks at 3 and we hit alot of them.

Then we let our foot off the gas. Understandable and the lead never got too low but would have liked to have seen a bit more focus and a lot less fouling. Some dumb fouls.

Big props to Andre and Sheed for seeing us through our early offensive funk

wk2109
02-05-2014, 12:05 AM
That was a bad pass. Plumlee's back was to Sheed as he was blocking out and looking for the rebound.

I think any big man with average ball awareness would have made the catch and finish. Marshall seems to lack this awareness at times. I remember a few games ago he made a block on defense then started sprinting down the court, unaware that the opponent had gotten the loose ball and was putting up another shot.

ChrisP
02-05-2014, 12:06 AM
That was a bad pass. Plumlee's back was to Sheed as he was blocking out and looking for the rebound.

Completely agree - Rasheed should have just shot it after he drove in so deep. I mean, it's not like he's not gotten stuffed before when he takes it in too deep (and actually, I am not sure he would have gotten blocked). MP3 was doing exactly what he should have been doing in that situation - i.e. turning and facing the basket with his body on his man and in position for the rebound. The turnover on that play was in no way Marshall's fault.

ICP
02-05-2014, 12:24 AM
Other than his play, is there evidence that Cook is hurt?
I remember Laura Keeley mentioning that him not starting is not due to injury, and talking about how the stuff is penciling in Tyus Jones at point next year... She's pretty well connected usually. The announcers tonight also talked about him being benched due to his poor performance, not because of injury.

oakvillebluedevil
02-05-2014, 12:42 AM
The announcers tonight also talked about him being benched due to his poor performance, not because of injury.

To be fair, the announcers were surprised when K went to his bench early. Also after the Crazies booed a no call on a three step travel, Good ol' Len insulted them for "not knowing what a Eurostep is."

DevilYouthCoach
02-05-2014, 01:13 AM
Other than his play, is there evidence that Cook is hurt?
I remember Laura Keeley mentioning that him not starting is not due to injury, and talking about how the stuff is penciling in Tyus Jones at point next year... She's pretty well connected usually. The announcers tonight also talked about him being benched due to his poor performance, not because of injury.

Clearly Quinn Cook is going through a difficult period, which seems to have started when he suffered a sprained ankle a few games ago. I think that is causing him to both have difficulty penetrating into the paint, and also it seems that his long shots have been about 6 inches short -- until the second half tonight, that is, when he hit the two excellent threes. Coach K then gave him a huge hug and a loud talking-to --- I interpreted that as encouragement. As we have seen time after time in all sports, confidence is everything when it comes to playing at a high level. He's playing without his swagger right now, and he needs to get it back. I predict the swagger will come quickly once the ankle is right. He's too talented to let this bring him down. And frankly we need him -- no one can handle the ball like he can. And as for next year, I predict Quinn's experience and smarts will keep him the starter. It's a huge jump from high school and there will be four super-duper frosh to educate.

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 01:25 AM
Agree that QC is going through a rough period. Seems like around February in each season, he starts to fade... Then again, the same coudl be said for Dawk in previous year, but he really looks like a new guy to me. He's our version of Vinnie Johnson, or Jamal Crawford, whomever microwave scorer you want to call him...

I wouldn't be surprised though if Sheed ends up playing heavy minutes for the remainder of the year if he can maintain the current level. He gives the team the 1-2-3 punch they desperately need to go deep in March. It's so important for this guy to have his hands on the ball. He plays like a different man when he's involved. Some guys don't need to dominate the ball to get their points, Sheed isn't that way just yet. But boy, his dynamic creativity continues to impress me. Feels like the #1 option for us with the shot clock winding down because of his ability to get a 3, a drive, or a kick...

uh_no
02-05-2014, 02:06 AM
Agree that QC is going through a rough period. Seems like around February in each season, he starts to fade... Then again, the same coudl be said for Dawk in previous year, but he really looks like a new guy to me. He's our version of Vinnie Johnson, or Jamal Crawford, whomever microwave scorer you want to call him...

I wouldn't be surprised though if Sheed ends up playing heavy minutes for the remainder of the year if he can maintain the current level. He gives the team the 1-2-3 punch they desperately need to go deep in March. It's so important for this guy to have his hands on the ball. He plays like a different man when he's involved. Some guys don't need to dominate the ball to get their points, Sheed isn't that way just yet. But boy, his dynamic creativity continues to impress me. Feels like the #1 option for us with the shot clock winding down because of his ability to get a 3, a drive, or a kick...

further with quinn, he's gonna let his emotions drive him....so as he plays poorly, he gets down on himself, and it prevents him from snapping out of it....i mean, where is the "beating up his teammates" in excitement after a good play? I don't see the good emotion out there for him right now

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 02:14 AM
agree with what you just said... sheed was like that earlier during the year, but snapped out of it, slowly starting from after the DNP... K is pretty good at pressing the right buttons to milk the most out of his players. here's to hoping he gets QC back to baseline for the stretch run

brevity
02-05-2014, 02:35 AM
If there is an All-conference Pouty Face team, Devin Thomas is a lock.

It's safe to say that he'll be a finalist for this season's Zellweger Award.

3863

(Source (http://www.galleryoftheabsurd.com/2005/06/renee_celebrity.html))

It would be a great story if he wins. This year Wake Forest is honoring Tim Duncan Face (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1104/nba.foul.face/content.7.html) with the George Lopez Lifetime Achievement Award.

bob blue devil
02-05-2014, 06:44 AM
i'd be surprised if quinn isn't being seriously hampered by his ankle. as others have noted, his play is far more tentative/passive.

is it appropriate to start the hand wringing about whether rasheed goes pro this year? he can defend, he can shoot, he can drive... passing is not quinn cook level, but that's a high bar. it won't take folks long to notice rasheed is back and better than ever.

SirBlueDevil
02-05-2014, 07:18 AM
"Wake Forest was great for about 10 minutes. Then it was Duke's turn to be great"! And that my fellow blue devil faithfuls was how we reminded the Deacons of what life has been like playing in our backyard.

lotusland
02-05-2014, 07:20 AM
Completely agree - Rasheed should have just shot it after he drove in so deep. I mean, it's not like he's not gotten stuffed before when he takes it in too deep (and actually, I am not sure he would have gotten blocked). MP3 was doing exactly what he should have been doing in that situation - i.e. turning and facing the basket with his body on his man and in position for the rebound. The turnover on that play was in no way Marshall's fault.

I don't think there needs to criticism or blame regarding that play. Marshall clearly didn't expect the pass so the question is should he have expected it? The better question is will he be ready for it next time? Marshall's role so far has been to rebound and play D and that is what he was doing. Those are his primary jobs but for him to score on that play he has to be ready to catch the ball WHILE establishing position AND the pass has to be made and made accurately. I never saw a replay but, assuming the pass was on target, Sheed did his job so hopefully MP3 learned a lesson and the next time he will recognize that he is open and trust that the pass will be there. This is the kind of cohesiveness that is established over time but it's a thing of beauty when it comes around. That is a long winded way if saying that getting caught with your hands down is the way you learn to expect a pass.

lotusland
02-05-2014, 07:29 AM
It's safe to say that he'll be a finalist for this season's Zellweger Award.

3863

(Source (http://www.galleryoftheabsurd.com/2005/06/renee_celebrity.html))

It would be a great story if he wins. This year Wake Forest is honoring Tim Duncan Face (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1104/nba.foul.face/content.7.html) with the George Lopez Lifetime Achievement Award.

Magic Johnson and Kevin McHale have to be on that list. Those two were "shocked" every time the whistle blew

wsb3
02-05-2014, 07:48 AM
I am now starting to believe that Sheed at the point/combo guard, used like Nolan in 2010/2011 is what can make this team advance down the stretch. We've always known he's better with the ball in his hand, but we are now starting to realize he's the teams best one-on-one penetrator, and has a pretty nasty crossover. His point guard skills are evolving rapidly--I believe his future is as a combo guard, and that going in that direction can help this team rise to new level.

I said to someone Sunday & I have been a big proponent for QC from day one on being our point guard, I wonder what would happen to our team if Sheed took over this role, & played more point. I don't know if it is ankle problems hampering him but QC is just not consistent & just does not look sharp.

I hope QC gets well & plays consistently well down the stretch but right now I like the ball in Sheed's hands.

CDu
02-05-2014, 07:48 AM
If there is an All-conference Pouty Face team, Devin Thomas is a lock.

As is Sulaimon.

MChambers
02-05-2014, 08:20 AM
As is Sulaimon.
Sulaimon doesn't dwell on it. Gets right back to playing. One of the things I really like about him.

MChambers
02-05-2014, 08:21 AM
Magic Johnson and Kevin McHale have to be on that list. Those two were "shocked" every time the whistle blew
Dave Cowens, too, if you're old enough to remember him. Used to be 3 unwritten rules in the NBA: Anybody could foul Kareem any time they wanted, Dave Cowens could foul anybody any time he wanted, and Magic could palm the ball any time he wanted.

MCFinARL
02-05-2014, 08:32 AM
As is Sulaimon.

Last night Rodney Hood was in the running, too, although I don't normally associate him with pouty face.

MCFinARL
02-05-2014, 08:33 AM
Dave Cowens, too, if you're old enough to remember him. Used to be 3 unwritten rules in the NBA: Anybody could foul Kareem any time they wanted, Dave Cowens could foul anybody any time he wanted, and Magic could palm the ball any time he wanted.

"if you're old enough to remember" Dave Cowens? Now THAT makes me feel REALLY old.

FerryFor50
02-05-2014, 08:42 AM
"if you're old enough to remember" Dave Cowens? Now THAT makes me feel REALLY old.

I remember Dave Cowens. He coached the Charlotte Hornets. :)

OldPhiKap
02-05-2014, 08:50 AM
Magic Johnson and Kevin McHale have to be on that list. Those two were "shocked" every time the whistle blew

Bill Laimbeer. "What mugging?"

Dsuke17
02-05-2014, 08:53 AM
I think it's really nice to have Tyler when some other players are in slump. When Rasheed was struggling, there was Tyler to start as SG. Now Quin is not playing well, again Tyler is there to share PG duty with Rasheed. When this team's defense was terrible, Tyler provided defensive mindset to whole team.
While he is not as talented offensively, we can always count on him for defense, hustle and toughness, not to mention some clutch plays. For young team, it's great have senior leader like him to fallback on.

El_Diablo
02-05-2014, 08:55 AM
I don't think there needs to criticism or blame regarding that play. Marshall clearly didn't expect the pass so the question is should he have expected it? The better question is will he be ready for it next time? Marshall's role so far has been to rebound and play D and that is what he was doing. Those are his primary jobs but for him to score on that play he has to be ready to catch the ball WHILE establishing position AND the pass has to be made and made accurately. I never saw a replay but, assuming the pass was on target, Sheed did his job so hopefully MP3 learned a lesson and the next time he will recognize that he is open and trust that the pass will be there. This is the kind of cohesiveness that is established over time but it's a thing of beauty when it comes around. That is a long winded way if saying that getting caught with your hands down is the way you learn to expect a pass.

Sorry, but I would say that Rasheed clearly did not "do his job" on that play. He rose up for a shot from short range. In that situation, the person with the ball has a pretty limited choice: (a) shoot it; or (b) pass it to an open player. Option (b) may make sense when the recipient has an easier shot, but it is high-risk because other players start preparing for the shot and may not be expecting a pass.

Marshall was not open; he had a guy draped over him in the post. Rasheed drove into the lane and went up for a 6-foot floater, and Marshall's defender put his arm up to challenge it (but was still hip-to-hip with Marshall at the time). Once Rasheed went up for that shot, it was on him to shoot it or find a better option, and a teammate who was both covered and turning his head towards the rim looking for the rebound is simply not a better option when Rasheed is directly behind that person. It was simply a poor decision by Rasheed, but hopefully he learned a lesson and the next time he will recognize that he cannot leave his feet and dump it off to someone just because there's a white shirt in the general vicinity.

MChambers
02-05-2014, 08:55 AM
"if you're old enough to remember" Dave Cowens? Now THAT makes me feel REALLY old.
I saw him play in college, against Artis Gilmore, I think. Beat that. Luckily, I was pretty young then.

theAlaskanBear
02-05-2014, 08:59 AM
I don't know why, but I find myself liking Jeff Bzdelik. He has this 'Mr. Rogers' way about him.

Ichabod Drain
02-05-2014, 09:04 AM
I don't know why, but I find myself liking Jeff Bzdelik. He has this 'Mr. Rogers' look about him.

FIFY :rolleyes:

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 09:08 AM
Sorry, but I would say that Rasheed clearly did not "do his job" on that play. He rose up for a shot from short range. In that situation, the person with the ball has a pretty limited choice: (a) shoot it; or (b) pass it to an open player. Option (b) may make sense when the recipient has an easier shot, but it is high-risk because other players start preparing for the shot and may not be expecting a pass.

Marshall was not open; he had a guy draped over him in the post. Rasheed drove into the lane and went up for a 6-foot floater, and Marshall's defender put his arm up to challenge it (but was still hip-to-hip with Marshall at the time). Once Rasheed went up for that shot, it was on him to shoot it or find a better option, and a teammate who was both covered and turning his head towards the rim looking for the rebound is simply not a better option when Rasheed is directly behind that person. It was simply a poor decision by Rasheed, but hopefully he learned a lesson and the next time he will recognize that he cannot leave his feet and dump it off to someone just because there's a white shirt in the general vicinity.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Well--it's not that Marshall is to blame, per se, but at this point in his career he just doesn't have the basketball instinct to be able to multi-task. It's not uncommon for post-defenders to box out their man, to be prepared for a quick entry pass, or to tip a rebound in within fractions of a second of each other. It's just that Marshall isn't there just yet. I think the better question to ask would be whether the play would have ended the same way with our other bigs...

Channing
02-05-2014, 09:16 AM
I respectfully disagree with this statement. Well--it's not that Marshall is to blame, per se, but at this point in his career he just doesn't have the basketball instinct to be able to multi-task. It's not uncommon for post-defenders to box out their man, to be prepared for a quick entry pass, or to tip a rebound in within fractions of a second of each other. It's just that Marshall isn't there just yet. I think the better question to ask would be whether the play would have ended the same way with our other bigs...

when I saw the play my initial thought was that it was an ill advised pass by Rasheed. In fact, when the play came up in this thread, it took me a couple minutes to figure out exactly what play was at issue, because it being Marshall's fault never crossed my mind. The only big who may have made that play, imo, is Jabari, and simply because he has a ridiculous knack for the ball. I don't think Hairston or Amile come close to making that play.

Speaking of Rasheed, his single biggest improvement on offense, that I can see, is utilizing the drive and dish. Earlier in the year it seemed like every time he drove to the hoop, he forced a shot. Now he penetrates for the sake of breaking down the defense, and if the shot is there he takes it but if a pass is the better play, he passes. I think it is having a very tangible effect on Andre, as he is getting good clean looks early and getting the confidence going each game.

Unrelated, I loved what Semi brought at the end of the game. I tried following him on defense, but on offense we saw a great strong move to the hoop that almost went down and a clean 3. Not bad for the 11th man. I am guessing his defense isn't where it needs to be, because I would love to see him on the court more.

MCFinARL
02-05-2014, 09:17 AM
I saw him play in college, against Artis Gilmore, I think. Beat that. Luckily, I was pretty young then.

Well, okay, you got me. I am actually old enough to have seen him play in college, but I didn't--saw him play in a couple of Celtics-Knicks games at the Gahden in the early 70's though.

roywhite
02-05-2014, 09:20 AM
Speaking of Rasheed, his single biggest improvement on offense, that I can see, is utilizing the drive and dish. Earlier in the year it seemed like every time he drove to the hoop, he forced a shot. Now he penetrates for the sake of breaking down the defense, and if the shot is there he takes it but if a pass is the better play, he passes. I think it is having a very tangible effect on Andre, as he is getting good clean looks early and getting the confidence going each game.


Rasheed is also getting better at finishing drives with made baskets, which can lead to an "and one" at the line. Still room for improvement, but I really liked a couple finishes he had last night with his left hand, soft off the backboard and accurate.

As has been noted, the sophomore class is developing nicely.

Kfanarmy
02-05-2014, 09:29 AM
Thought last nights game was less entertaining than most, seemed to be little energy for long stretches from both teams and the crowd. Duke had a couple of 5 minutes stretches where they played really well (last 5 of the first half and midway through the second half) and about 30 minutes where they seemed to simply match Wake. Some of that had to do with all the fouls being called, but honestly I think Duke earned most of the ones they were called for.
... I never saw a replay but, assuming the pass was on target, Sheed did his job so hopefully MP3 learned a lesson and the next time he will recognize that he is open and trust that the pass will be there. This is the kind of cohesiveness that is established over time but it's a thing of beauty when it comes around. That is a long winded way if saying that getting caught with your hands down is the way you learn to expect a pass.
I didn’t see this play, coincidentally I’d turned my head to talk to someone, but if Sheed actually passed the ball to MP3 because he thought he was in a position to score MP3 was probably in shock. I consider the act in itself a step forward…hopefully they’ll hook up for an assist and score down the road.


…We seemed to be uninterested in playing solid defense on the interior, opting instead to foul repeatedly every time they went inside, which, I guess wasn't a terrible strategy against a mediocre free throw shooting team. Still, I would have liked to see less reaching, and more foot movement on D. … While many don’t like Len Elmore, he kept pointing this out. At this point in the season, it was a bit difficult to watch Duke’s D continually reaching. About half the time in the first half, the Wake player being guarded took the opportunity to go hard to the rim as a Duke player reached toward the ball.

One thing I’ve not figured out about this team’s defense, maybe someone can help me out with what they are trying to do. I get the idea of trying to turn a specific player left or right, if you know he can’t shoot well from one side or another, but Duke has several players who seem always to be in a oblique defensive position with one foot well forward of the other, limiting the ability to react in both directions. Am I seeing things? To me they’d be much better off focusing on staying parallel to and directly in between their man and the rim.

BD80
02-05-2014, 09:45 AM
... This year Wake Forest is honoring Tim Duncan Face (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1104/nba.foul.face/content.7.html) with the George Lopez Lifetime Achievement Award.

Great photo gallery of "I fouled?" faces. Many seem to be struggling with the most basic concepts underlying the whistle. Duke is represented in the gallery of 40:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1104/nba.foul.face/content.36.html


Bill Laimbeer. "What mugging?"

Say what you will about Lamb, but NO opponent ever left the lane with their lunch money. Bill was sent to the Principal's office a few times.

Back to the game, Rasheed with 37 minutes. Our best returning player from last year is looking like our best returning player from last year. Everyone runs their own race ...

Great group of young men on this team, but I can't remember a team that needed a great coach as much as this one. A blend of skill levels, confidence levels, levels of effort, experience levels, communication levels, levels of athleticism. It is so hard for these guys to develop roles because their games are developing, which changes their roles, and the roles of others.

I can see this team continuing to improve all the way through the tournament.

FerryFor50
02-05-2014, 09:54 AM
Sorry, but I would say that Rasheed clearly did not "do his job" on that play. He rose up for a shot from short range. In that situation, the person with the ball has a pretty limited choice: (a) shoot it; or (b) pass it to an open player. Option (b) may make sense when the recipient has an easier shot, but it is high-risk because other players start preparing for the shot and may not be expecting a pass.

Marshall was not open; he had a guy draped over him in the post. Rasheed drove into the lane and went up for a 6-foot floater, and Marshall's defender put his arm up to challenge it (but was still hip-to-hip with Marshall at the time). Once Rasheed went up for that shot, it was on him to shoot it or find a better option, and a teammate who was both covered and turning his head towards the rim looking for the rebound is simply not a better option when Rasheed is directly behind that person. It was simply a poor decision by Rasheed, but hopefully he learned a lesson and the next time he will recognize that he cannot leave his feet and dump it off to someone just because there's a white shirt in the general vicinity.

I also wasn't a fan of Sheed's reaction to the play. He seemed angry at MP3. It's the PGs responsibility to make the right decision there.

NYBri
02-05-2014, 09:56 AM
Couple of things:

- looking at the box score, it looks like K is shortening his bench. Yes there were 11 names on the box score, but only seven or eight had substantial minutes. Different approach than just a couple of weeks ago.

- Quinn looks totally out of sync. I remember one play on defense when he stood around and watched a long rebound come at him and he just stood there. No excuse for that really.

- we now have the multiple scoring options that we all wanted to see at the beginning of the season. Jabari, Hood, Dawkins and Rashid. For too long doing the early part of the season everyone stood around watching Hood and Jabari with the ball on the offensive end.

- K has proven once again that he's willing to change things up and evolve the team as the season progresses.

- as a spectator this team is so fun to watch, because we never know from game to game who is going to show up and what combinations are going to play. This team with all of its talent depth is a spectator's dream.

roywhite
02-05-2014, 09:58 AM
I also wasn't a fan of Sheed's reaction to the play. He seemed angry at MP3. It's the PGs responsibility to make the right decision there.

yeah, have to agree; the really good PGs know who they are passing to (to whom they are passing -- eh,sounds weird) and just how they like to receive the ball.

Still, I'm loving Rasheed's aggressiveness these days. Coach K lit his fire, and now it's a virtual inferno.

roywhite
02-05-2014, 10:03 AM
Couple of things:

- looking at the box score, it looks like K is shortening his bench. Yes there were 11 names on the box score, but only seven or eight had substantial minutes. Different approach than just a couple of weeks ago.

- Quinn looks totally out of sync. I remember one play on defense when he stood around and watched a long rebound come at him and he just stood there. No excuse for that really.
- we now have the multiple scoring options that we all wanted to see at the beginning of the season. Jabari, Hood, Dawkins and Rashid. For too long doing the early part of the season everyone stood around watching Hood and Jabari with the ball on the offensive end.

- K has proven once again that he's willing to change things up and evolve the team as the season progresses.


Quinn was the object of K's individual attention last night, some up-close-and-personal counseling. In his face about some mistakes, and then in his face with praise and encouragement. This is vintage K -- strong individual coaching when he sees someone in a slump, or not fitting the team concept.

I fully expect Quinn's play to pick up as he responds to his tutoring.

bbosbbos
02-05-2014, 10:04 AM
When Rasheed was running on the court, I saw some Nolan in him, the junior year Nolan.

Lar77
02-05-2014, 10:49 AM
I haven't seen much discussion here about the fouls. Games with Wake tend to be chippy (I remember a game in Prosser's time when we had 5 guys foul out, and they had 3, at the Joel), but 50 fouls! And 28 on us?

Is this a function of being more aggressive or bad reactions (like leaving the feet to go for a desperation block)?

Also, was the first foul on Tyler really a block?

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 10:58 AM
yeah, have to agree; the really good PGs know who they are passing to (to whom they are passing -- eh,sounds weird) and just how they like to receive the ball.

Still, I'm loving Rasheed's aggressiveness these days. Coach K lit his fire, and now it's a virtual inferno.

OK--there's the consensus. Rasheed should have known he was passing to a guy with high limited abilities on the offensive end; he overestimated Marshall's ability to box his man out and with a clear space ahead of him catch a softly lofted pass? If you're boxing your guy out on the low block, and you eyes are looking up to see the shot, you should have enough peripheral vision to see that one coming. This was not a bullet pass, or a low bounce pass. I can understand Rasheed's frustration to some extent, although I agree he shouldn't have shown it so vividly... But the guy wears his heart on his sleeve; he fist pumps, and he sulks. He's an open guy. I kinda like it :)

davekay1971
02-05-2014, 10:58 AM
I haven't seen much discussion here about the fouls. Games with Wake tend to be chippy (I remember a game in Prosser's time when we had 5 guys foul out, and they had 3, at the Joel), but 50 fouls! And 28 on us?

Is this a function of being more aggressive or bad reactions (like leaving the feet to go for a desperation block)?

Also, was the first foul on Tyler really a block?

This just in from InsideCarolina:
Duke gets all the calls. This is not a theory, it is a scientific law, like gravity.
Therefore, if Duke was whistled for 28 fouls, they should been whistled for 48, but the refs were paid/intimidated by K/The ACC/The NCAA, so the 28 calls against Duke were only the fouls so egregious and obvious that the refs couldn't avoid calling them. The 22 fouls called against Wake were all crap. Wake doesn't foul. They're Switzerland, and Switzerland doesn't foul.

Back to reality:
So much good to take from this game. One good teaching point for our team is to watch their own defensive play in the first 10 minutes, followed by their defense in the next 20 minutes of game time. It wasn't just Wake being hot then going cold. In those first 10 minutes we let them get open looks, open cuts, deep penetration into the lane, etc...all the mistakes we were making a month ago on defense. In the 10 minutes after that, we played nasty, intense, hungry, talkative defense...Duke defense. In the first 10 minutes of this game, we were a bottom-of-the-top-25 team. In the 20 minutes following, we were national championship contenders.

I hope our guys watch themselves in the film room, comparing their defensive play, and the obvious results of that play. Our offense is great, especially with Dawkins and Sulaimon contributing the way they are, adding to the Parker/Hood nightmare our opponents have to try to stop. Our defense is what will determine whether or not we compete for ACC and NCAA championships.

FerryFor50
02-05-2014, 11:01 AM
OK--there's the consensus. Rasheed should have known he was passing to a guy with high limited abilities on the offensive end; he overestimated Marshall's ability to box his man out and with a clear space ahead of him catch a softly lofted pass? If you're boxing your guy out on the low block, and you eyes are looking up to see the shot, you should have enough peripheral vision to see that one coming. This was not a bullet pass, or a low bounce pass. I can understand Rasheed's frustration to some extent, although I agree he shouldn't have shown it so vividly... But the guy wears his heart on his sleeve; he fist pumps, and he sulks. He's an open guy. I kinda like it :)

Nothing about that play was MP3's fault. He was boxing out. And your peripheral vision doesn't extend over and behind your head. By the time MP3 saw the ball, it was too late. In fact, MP3 was doing EXACTLY what he should be doing - boxing out. Sheed normally either shoots that or kicks it out.

jv001
02-05-2014, 11:06 AM
Quinn was the object of K's individual attention last night, some up-close-and-personal counseling. In his face about some mistakes, and then in his face with praise and encouragement. This is vintage K -- strong individual coaching when he sees someone in a slump, or not fitting the team concept.

I fully expect Quinn's play to pick up as he responds to his tutoring.

I saw the play where Quinn could have gotten an offensive rebound with just a little effort. However he just stood there until Wake got the rebound and then headed back down court. After watching last nights game, I'm convinced Quinn's problem is more mental than physical. He may not be 100% but he's certainly healthy enough for Coach K to play him. As roywhite mentioned, Coach K had some strong individual coaching for Quinn last night. Coach K knows his players and what makes them tick. In Quinn's case, it's emotion, good and bad. When he's making shots, giving out assist, making steals he's highly emotional. But when he misses shots, makes a bad pass or get's beaten on defense, he tends to sulk. I have to say, he was playing best when he would hit a shot and do a little showboating for a moment. I had rather have that Quinn than the one we have now. I look for Coach K and staff to get Quinn back to being the real Quinn. It's going to take some patience but I believe it will happen. It's clear that the players and coaches are rallying around him. Just like they did Rasheed during his less than stellar play. GoDuke!

Kfanarmy
02-05-2014, 11:20 AM
Couple of things:

- looking at the box score, it looks like K is shortening his bench. Yes there were 11 names on the box score, but only seven or eight had substantial minutes. Different approach than just a couple of weeks ago.

- Quinn looks totally out of sync. I remember one play on defense when he stood around and watched a long rebound come at him and he just stood there. No excuse for that really.

- we now have the multiple scoring options that we all wanted to see at the beginning of the season. Jabari, Hood, Dawkins and Rashid. For too long doing the early part of the season everyone stood around watching Hood and Jabari with the ball on the offensive end.

- K has proven once again that he's willing to change things up and evolve the team as the season progresses.
- as a spectator this team is so fun to watch, because we never know from game to game who is going to show up and what combinations are going to play. This team with all of its talent depth is a spectator's dream.

Your points immediately preceeding could be seen more as regression than evolution...as in regressing back to the norm of playing a short bench. I hope that doesn't happen!

roywhite
02-05-2014, 11:21 AM
. Coach K knows his players and what makes them tick.

Had to love Coach K and Tyler Thornton slapping five after Tyler had yet another deflection.

arnie
02-05-2014, 11:32 AM
I saw him play in college, against Artis Gilmore, I think. Beat that. Luckily, I was pretty young then.

Yes I remember Cowens at Florida State- unfortunately I wasn't that young then.

jv001
02-05-2014, 11:38 AM
Had to love Coach K and Tyler Thornton slapping five after Tyler had yet another deflection.

That was great and brought a big smile on my face. It's evident how Coach K feels about TT and deservedly so. GoDuke!

daveyro
02-05-2014, 11:48 AM
It's safe to say that he'll be a finalist for this season's Zellweger Award.

3863

(Source (http://www.galleryoftheabsurd.com/2005/06/renee_celebrity.html))

It would be a great story if he wins. This year Wake Forest is honoring Tim Duncan Face (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/1104/nba.foul.face/content.7.html) with the George Lopez Lifetime Achievement Award.

Love the Renee Zellweger lemon face. Up there with Roy Willaims as Huckleberry Hound

Zeb
02-05-2014, 11:50 AM
I like this obsessive discussion of one minor play, because Rasheed's pass to MP3 was weird for several reasons...

1) MP3 almost never is targeted for a pass down low. Not saying this is bad or good, just that it almost never happens so it made this play unusual.
2) MP3 was not in position to catch. He had no eye contact with Rasheed and was facing the basket and boxing out.
3) Sheed basically jumped up and dropped the ball in front of MP3. Having played a lot of basketball, the number of times I have received a pass from behind and above my head is exceedingly rare. I bet for 7 footers it is even more rare.
4) If MP3 had caught it, he would have had a dunk. So while it was an unorthodox play, it could have been effective.
5) I don't know if Rasheed yelled something to alert Marshall to the pass. If he had, that might have better explained his annoyance after the play.

My verdict is this was mainly Rasheed's mistake--he tried a highly unusual pass to a guy who was probably the least likely player on the team to be able to handle it. Like any guard who passes up a shot for a pass, he got ticked off that the big man wasted his effort, but he probably should have been more angry with himself for pushing the envelope.

I hope this doesn't discourage further efforts to feed Marshall down low. He needs more confidence and some easy dishes underneath could really help.

Clay Feet POF
02-05-2014, 11:51 AM
I saw the play where Quinn could have gotten an offensive rebound with just a little effort. However he just stood there until Wake got the rebound and then headed back down court. After watching last nights game, I'm convinced Quinn's problem is more mental than physical. He may not be 100% but he's certainly healthy enough for Coach K to play him. As roywhite mentioned, Coach K had some strong individual coaching for Quinn last night. Coach K knows his players and what makes them tick. In Quinn's case, it's emotion, good and bad. When he's making shots, giving out assist, making steals he's highly emotional. But when he misses shots, makes a bad pass or get's beaten on defense, he tends to sulk. I have to say, he was playing best when he would hit a shot and do a little showboating for a moment. I had rather have that Quinn than the one we have now. I look for Coach K and staff to get Quinn back to being the real Quinn. It's going to take some patience but I believe it will happen. It's clear that the players and coaches are rallying around him. Just like they did Rasheed during his less than stellar play. GoDuke!

That indicated to me, his focus is not on ALL elements of the game only some! That doesn't work

Saratoga2
02-05-2014, 11:51 AM
Your points immediately preceeding could be seen more as regression than evolution...as in regressing back to the norm of playing a short bench. I hope that doesn't happen!

The issue seems to revolve around foul trouble. Didn't Hood foul out last night, Parker have 4 and Jefferson 3 fouls last night? We do have options inside that might keep Hood, Parker and Jefferson out of foul trouble. Marshall and Josh are knowns but Semi may be the most intriguing with his strength and athleticism. He also seems to have an offensive side that the others lack.

bob blue devil
02-05-2014, 11:58 AM
I saw the play where Quinn could have gotten an offensive rebound with just a little effort. However he just stood there until Wake got the rebound and then headed back down court. After watching last nights game, I'm convinced Quinn's problem is more mental than physical.

its funny how we can interpret the same thing differently - that was the play that convinced me that quinn is hurting! obviously i could easily be mistaken, but i thought he was reluctant to make a sudden change of direction to chase down the 50/50 ball. a balky ankle is something that will do that to you. i'd be really disappointed if that were mental, so perhaps i saw what i wanted to see.

Matches
02-05-2014, 12:05 PM
Realistically the game was over when we went up 10. Their best chance of winning was to stay close and hope to eke it out at the end, especially with CMM not playing. They had basically no shot at playing from behind.

Not a vintage performance, but I think under the circumstances (coming off the Syracuse game) a pretty good one. I thought it was Jabari's best game in a good while, Sheed continues to impress, overall an uneven but solid performance.

gotoguy
02-05-2014, 12:09 PM
Nothing about that play was MP3's fault. He was boxing out. And your peripheral vision doesn't extend over and behind your head. By the time MP3 saw the ball, it was too late. In fact, MP3 was doing EXACTLY what he should be doing - boxing out. Sheed normally either shoots that or kicks it out.

I disagree. When in the lane with inside position (between his man and the basket whatever the angle) the big man should always look for the pass from someone driving the lane with the ball. Even if the driving ball handler in this case Sheed has never passed it before. Marshall's fault there. And while technically true, boxing out generally applies to the defender rebounding an opponents shot and preventing his man from doing so.

UrinalCake
02-05-2014, 12:10 PM
A lot of us have mentioned the hangover effect from the Syracuse game, but also keep in mind that before that we played Pitt on the road and FSU at home. It was a brutal stretch, and the team definitely needs a mental and physical breather. Hopefully we can stay focused this weekend and not take BC for granted on the road or start looking ahead to UNC.

rsvman
02-05-2014, 12:11 PM
OK--there's the consensus. Rasheed should have known he was passing to a guy with high limited abilities on the offensive end; he overestimated Marshall's ability to box his man out and with a clear space ahead of him catch a softly lofted pass? If you're boxing your guy out on the low block, and you eyes are looking up to see the shot, you should have enough peripheral vision to see that one coming. This was not a bullet pass, or a low bounce pass. I can understand Rasheed's frustration to some extent, although I agree he shouldn't have shown it so vividly... But the guy wears his heart on his sleeve; he fist pumps, and he sulks. He's an open guy. I kinda like it :)

C'mon! Seriously?


Nobody passes the ball directly over the back and over the head of a teammate when said teammate is looking directly away from him in anticipation of a rebound. Wilt freakin' Chamberlain woudn't have made that play.

Once Marshall turned his back to Sulaimon to block out the defending rebounder and was standing almost DIRECTLY in front of Sulaimon, the opportunity to pass the ball (if one actually ever existed) was long, long gone. You don't just lob a ball up over the back of somebody's head and hope they see it in their "peripheral vision" (would actually not be his peripheral vision; peripheral vision is from side-to-side, this came right over the top of his head into his CENTRAL vision).

By the time that ball appears in your central vision it is far too late to catch it and make a play.


It was a bad decision, and a bad pass.

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 12:20 PM
I disagree. When in the lane with inside position (between his man and the basket whatever the angle) the big man should always look for the pass from someone driving the lane with the ball. Even if the driving ball handler in this case Sheed has never passed it before. Marshall's fault there. And while technically true, boxing out generally applies to the defender rebounding an opponents shot and preventing his man from doing so.

Yes, I agree. It's okay. It happened during a blowout game by 20. We've got to get him useful by March though... We need him to become BZ, and I haven't seen the signs of evolution yet (although way better than one month ago--at least he gets time)...

gam7
02-05-2014, 12:43 PM
I also wasn't a fan of Sheed's reaction to the play. He seemed angry at MP3. It's the PGs responsibility to make the right decision there.

Agree. I've paid close attention to Rasheed's body language this year, and this was perhaps the only time this year where it made me cringe - definite overreaction. Remember back to the @UVA game last year - he was all sorts of visibly frustrated and angry and pouting. He's reined it in, which is really good.

El_Diablo
02-05-2014, 12:48 PM
C'mon! Seriously?


Nobody passes the ball directly over the back and over the head of a teammate when said teammate is looking directly away from him in anticipation of a rebound. Wilt freakin' Chamberlain woudn't have made that play.

Once Marshall turned his back to Sulaimon to block out the defending rebounder and was standing almost DIRECTLY in front of Sulaimon, the opportunity to pass the ball (if one actually ever existed) was long, long gone. You don't just lob a ball up over the back of somebody's head and hope they see it in their "peripheral vision" (would actually not be his peripheral vision; peripheral vision is from side-to-side, this came right over the top of his head into his CENTRAL vision).

By the time that ball appears in your central vision it is far too late to catch it and make a play.


It was a bad decision, and a bad pass.

Having watched the play again on ESPN replay, I do not think that the bolded part is correct. Marshall was on the left block, turning to the basket (to the right) and jostling with his defender to try to seal him off for the putback once Rasheed elevated for the shot. Because the defender didn't jump, Rasheed still had a clean look at the rim, but he dropped it off to the open space to the left. So unless Marshall has eyes on the back of his head, I do not really see how it could have even entered his field of vision until it was too late.

This is why passing to a defended teammate two feet away can be a bad decision.

And for what it's worth, there was a TV timeout right after this. When play resumed, Rasheed was on the bench, while Marshall was still in the game.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 12:52 PM
Agree that QC is going through a rough period. Seems like around February in each season, he starts to fade...

This is at least the second time in recent days that I've read something like this. Not sure if it was you or someone else who said it the first time. But here are Quinn's stat lines for all of February last season and a couple games before and after (you know, "around February"). Please point out to me where he "start[ed] to fade." I don't see it.



Date Opponent Mins FG for FGA 3 for 3 att FT for FTA OR / DR Tot Rebs Assists Tos Stls Pts
26-Jan MARYLAND 40 5 for 13 1 for 5 0 for 0 0 / 5 5 9 2 2 11
30-Jan at Wake Forest 38 5 for 12 1 for 5 1 for 2 0 / 4 4 7 3 1 12
2-Feb at Fla State 32 7 for 12 4 for 6 0 for 0 1 / 4 5 6 1 0 18
7-Feb N.C. STATE 35 6 for 8 4 for 5 5 for 6 0 / 4 4 4 1 0 21
10-Feb at BC 37 3 for 11 3 for 5 0 for 0 0 / 2 2 3 4 1 9
13-Feb NORTH CAROLINA 37 6 for 12 0 for 3 6 for 6 0 / 5 5 2 5 4 18
16-Feb at Maryland 37 6 for 16 2 for 6 4 for 5 0 / 2 2 6 5 4 18
21-Feb at Va Tech 18 3 for 6 1 for 2 0 for 0 0 / 1 1 1 2 0 7
24-Feb BOSTON COLLEGE 30 3 for 9 2 for 4 4 for 4 1 / 2 3 3 1 2 12
28-Feb at Virginia 34 8 for 17 4 for 9 2 for 2 1 / 1 2 2 1 0 22
2-Mar MIAMI 39 5 for 9 3 for 5 2 for 2 0 / 4 4 5 3 0 15



We need [Marshall Plumlee] to become BZ, and I haven't seen the signs of evolution yet (although way better than one month ago--at least he gets time)...

Again, this is the second time in recent days that someone has said this, and again I don't know if it was you or someone else who said it before, but this is just silly. Before Brian Zoubek's supposed big jump, he was playing 15+ minutes, was Duke's leading defensive rebounder (based on DR%) and the country's best offensive rebounder (based on OR%). The jump was only about minutes -- after the Maryland game that year his minute-based and tempo-free stats stayed pretty similar to what he'd done before. His minute-based and tempo-free stats from the year before were pretty good too (his junior year numbers: 11.9 mpg; 18.9 DR%; 16.7 OR%; 119.7 oRtg; 57.5% FG%; 82.8 FT%; 6.5% blk pct).

Marshall hasn't shown anything near what Brian Zoubek showed. He's already had his minute jump, and even with that he's averaging fewer than half the minutes Z played before his jump. Unlike Zoubek, Marshall's defensive rebounding percentage (while improving) is still poor for a big man. His offensive rebounding is pretty good, but only about two-thirds of what Zoubek's was his senior year. And (again, unlike Zoubek) his numbers from last year and from this year before his minute jump were poor.

Put another way, we've probably already seen Marshall's jump for the year. He isn't going to "become BZ," whether we "need" it or not.

Zeb
02-05-2014, 12:53 PM
I disagree. When in the lane with inside position (between his man and the basket whatever the angle) the big man should always look for the pass from someone driving the lane with the ball. Even if the driving ball handler in this case Sheed has never passed it before. Marshall's fault there.

You can fault Marshall for boxing out too soon and not being ready for a pass. However, isn't the greater fault on Rasheed for throwing it? Marshall clearly was NOT ready, NOT looking, so what's Rasheed doing trying to pass him the ball?

Also, Marshall's inside position was really a function of him boxing out. Had he made himself a better target for a pass, he would have yielded much of that inside position to his defender. One reason Zoubek was so good at offensive rebounds, is he rarely was posting up and looking for an entry pass, which usually puts a defender between you and the basket. (That's what makes this play intriguing to me though--it would have worked well had MP3 and Rasheed been trying to set this up. Instead it was a bad impromptu decision by Rasheed.)


And while technically true, boxing out generally applies to the defender rebounding an opponents shot and preventing his man from doing so.

Huh? Boxing out is boxing out, regardless of who is shooting, and that's exactly what Marshall was doing. The term field goal "generally applies" to a kick worth three points in football, but that doesn't mean its not correct to describe a made shot in basketball too.

MarkD83
02-05-2014, 12:55 PM
Not sure which post to respond to but the better play should have been for Rasheed to shot it off the backboard on Marshalls side of the basket. He had position and the shot off the backboard would have been a great pass.

arnie
02-05-2014, 01:14 PM
Not sure which post to respond to but the better play should have been for Rasheed to shot it off the backboard on Marshalls side of the basket. He had position and the shot off the backboard would have been a great pass.

Good post and I don't want to hammer Sheed, because he is playing well. I typically blame the guard that passes to a big man that can't handle the situation. The passer needs to know the abilities of the receiver - I've watched guards pass to Hairston down low in the past few years and recall passes to Horvath and others in the same situation. These guys simply can't do much with the ball if defenders are around, so don't put them in that situation. Hopefully, Marshall will develop some post offense, but its not there yet.

DukieinSoCal
02-05-2014, 01:26 PM
I think we're a better team with Sheed over Quinn at the point. We're better now and we have a higher ceiling with Sheed getting the majority of minutes at the 1. Sheed is bigger, more athletic, a better shooter, and a better defender than Quinn. He's become very good at breaking down his man and then either finishing strong or dishing to an open teammate. He may not be the pure point guard that Quinn is but I don't think that's all that important on this year's team. We have plenty of ball-handlers.
Even if Quinn is not 100% healthy, I just don't think he's reaching the elite level that we need to make a serious run at the Final 4 this year. He's really struggled with consistency, esp. against the top teams we've played.
And another important difference I've noticed is that when Sheed reacts to a poor play, it makes him more determined and he plays harder. Quinn still pouts and stands around while the next play is starting.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 01:40 PM
I think we're a better team with Sheed over Quinn at the point.

I don't agree. With all Quinn's faults, he still runs the team better than Rasheed or anybody else on the roster. Personally, I was liking the line change thing, with Quinn going with the starting unit and Rasheed running his own unit, where he was "the man." Seemed best of both worlds to me.

Matches
02-05-2014, 01:45 PM
I don't agree. With all Quinn's faults, he still runs the team better than Rasheed or anybody else on the roster. Personally, I was liking the line change thing, with Quinn going with the starting unit and Rasheed running his own unit, where he was "the man." Seemed best of both worlds to me.

I was too but there's really no way to maintain that indefinitely with Sheed playing as well as he is right now. He's just playing too well not to be on the court for at least 28-30 minutes per game, which is going to have to overlap with Jabari and Hood.

Quinn remains the best distributor on the team, without a doubt, but until he breaks out of his slump (IMO a matter of time) Sheed's doing a more-than-capable job.

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 01:52 PM
Hi Kedsy,

You're right on both accounts. Plumlee isn't likely to become Zoubek--Brian had a better Knack for finding the ball, and for eating up more space in the lane. I'm just happy that Marshall is getting some productive minutes for himself out there. He should continue to improve. Whether it's an evolution or a revolution, guess we'll see.

And I guess Cook's fade was likely in March. I remember a stretch where he had trouble buying the 3-ball. Given he's not lightning quick, when opponents are able to back off of his 3 it really hurts the rest of his game, and the team.

Just hoping that he gets himself back in gear. I love that guy and we nee dhim.


This is at least the second time in recent days that I've read something like this. Not sure if it was you or someone else who said it the first time. But here are Quinn's stat lines for all of February last season and a couple games before and after (you know, "around February"). Please point out to me where he "start[ed] to fade." I don't see it.



Date Opponent Mins FG for FGA 3 for 3 att FT for FTA OR / DR Tot Rebs Assists Tos Stls Pts
26-Jan MARYLAND 40 5 for 13 1 for 5 0 for 0 0 / 5 5 9 2 2 11
30-Jan at Wake Forest 38 5 for 12 1 for 5 1 for 2 0 / 4 4 7 3 1 12
2-Feb at Fla State 32 7 for 12 4 for 6 0 for 0 1 / 4 5 6 1 0 18
7-Feb N.C. STATE 35 6 for 8 4 for 5 5 for 6 0 / 4 4 4 1 0 21
10-Feb at BC 37 3 for 11 3 for 5 0 for 0 0 / 2 2 3 4 1 9
13-Feb NORTH CAROLINA 37 6 for 12 0 for 3 6 for 6 0 / 5 5 2 5 4 18
16-Feb at Maryland 37 6 for 16 2 for 6 4 for 5 0 / 2 2 6 5 4 18
21-Feb at Va Tech 18 3 for 6 1 for 2 0 for 0 0 / 1 1 1 2 0 7
24-Feb BOSTON COLLEGE 30 3 for 9 2 for 4 4 for 4 1 / 2 3 3 1 2 12
28-Feb at Virginia 34 8 for 17 4 for 9 2 for 2 1 / 1 2 2 1 0 22
2-Mar MIAMI 39 5 for 9 3 for 5 2 for 2 0 / 4 4 5 3 0 15




Again, this is the second time in recent days that someone has said this, and again I don't know if it was you or someone else who said it before, but this is just silly. Before Brian Zoubek's supposed big jump, he was playing 15+ minutes, was Duke's leading defensive rebounder (based on DR%) and the country's best offensive rebounder (based on OR%). The jump was only about minutes -- after the Maryland game that year his minute-based and tempo-free stats stayed pretty similar to what he'd done before. His minute-based and tempo-free stats from the year before were pretty good too (his junior year numbers: 11.9 mpg; 18.9 DR%; 16.7 OR%; 119.7 oRtg; 57.5% FG%; 82.8 FT%; 6.5% blk pct).

Marshall hasn't shown anything near what Brian Zoubek showed. He's already had his minute jump, and even with that he's averaging fewer than half the minutes Z played before his jump. Unlike Zoubek, Marshall's defensive rebounding percentage (while improving) is still poor for a big man. His offensive rebounding is pretty good, but only about two-thirds of what Zoubek's was his senior year. And (again, unlike Zoubek) his numbers from last year and from this year before his minute jump were poor.

Put another way, we've probably already seen Marshall's jump for the year. He isn't going to "become BZ," whether we "need" it or not.

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 01:54 PM
This is now a fair debate, whereas it was completely absurd in a month ago. My feeling is that Cook has better knowledge of the offensive sets, and on average makes better decision, but when the clock is winding down, and you need to force the action--the ball won't likely be in Cook's hands to make the play. He's just far more guardable without relying on double-teams, etc.


I was too but there's really no way to maintain that indefinitely with Sheed playing as well as he is right now. He's just playing too well not to be on the court for at least 28-30 minutes per game, which is going to have to overlap with Jabari and Hood.

Quinn remains the best distributor on the team, without a doubt, but until he breaks out of his slump (IMO a matter of time) Sheed's doing a more-than-capable job.

FerryFor50
02-05-2014, 02:03 PM
This is now a fair debate, whereas it was completely absurd in a month ago. My feeling is that Cook has better knowledge of the offensive sets, and on average makes better decision, but when the clock is winding down, and you need to force the action--the ball won't likely be in Cook's hands to make the play. He's just far more guardable without relying on double-teams, etc.

On the flip side, I feel like Sheed is more turnover-prone and plays a little out of control at times, which is both a strength and a weakness for him.

MChambers
02-05-2014, 02:05 PM
I think we need both healthy and playing at a high level, and getting more minutes in the backcourt than anyone else. I don't think it matters who initiates the offense.

gotoguy
02-05-2014, 02:05 PM
Huh? Boxing out is boxing out, regardless of who is shooting, and that's exactly what Marshall was doing. The term field goal "generally applies" to a kick worth three points in football, but that doesn't mean its not correct to describe a made shot in basketball too.

A bucket discussed at a basketball game refers to a field goal worth 2 or 3 points unless the gym catches fire I suppose. If someone gets benched for not boxing out it is because they failed their defensive not offensive assignment. In that context boxing out is what a defender does, not what the offensive player does

bob blue devil
02-05-2014, 02:13 PM
I was too but there's really no way to maintain that indefinitely with Sheed playing as well as he is right now. He's just playing too well not to be on the court for at least 28-30 minutes per game, which is going to have to overlap with Jabari and Hood.

Quinn remains the best distributor on the team, without a doubt, but until he breaks out of his slump (IMO a matter of time) Sheed's doing a more-than-capable job.

agree and will add that we are an amazing offensive team with either cook or sulaimon on the floor, but defensively, where we are less strong, rasheed provides a clear advantage. i go back and forth as to who is better for our offense, but right now i think cook's distribution abilities are slightly more valuable than rasheed's driving abilities. of course, rasheed is a bit of a work in progress in that role.

i'll go back to my offseason fantasy line-up that i'd still love to see - duke goes big: rasheed, hood, parker, jefferson, plumlee. in my fantasy, that group could play some pretty nasty d as sulaimon and parker hound the ball, while on the other side of the floor parker, jefferson and plumlee menace the offensive glass. in reality, who knows.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 02:14 PM
I'm just happy that Marshall is getting some productive minutes for himself out there. He should continue to improve.

Agreed. He's giving us 10 good minutes a game, he should keep improving, and personally I think that's all we need from him.


Just hoping that he gets himself back in gear. I love that guy and we need him.

Again agreed. I think we're at our best with a focused Quinn Cook out there, on both sides of the ball.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 02:21 PM
On the flip side, I feel like Sheed is more turnover-prone and plays a little out of control at times, which is both a strength and a weakness for him.

I feel the same way, but the stats don't necessarily bear that out. Quinn's turnover percentage is 16.1 and Rasheed's is 13.0. Although maybe the numbers are skewed a little because for the first two-thirds of the season, Quinn did almost all the ball-handling and Rasheed has only been an almost-primary ballhandler for 8 games? It's hard to say from the game stats.

Quinn certainly gets more assists (28.7 assist percentage for Quinn vs. only 18.1 for Rasheed), and to my eyes the offense looks better and smoother when he's running the show.

GGLC
02-05-2014, 02:24 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Rasheed had more assists than Quinn over the last ~6 games.

Ggallagher
02-05-2014, 02:35 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Rasheed had more assists than Quinn over the last ~6 games.

According to the stats on KenPom, Rasheed has 27 assists in the last six games and Cook has 22.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 02:43 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Rasheed had more assists than Quinn over the last ~6 games.

He does -- 27 vs. 22 for Quinn over the last 6 games. And they've played approximately the same number of minutes (165 for Rasheed vs. 164 for Quinn). Still, I don't think it's representative to compare Rasheed's by-far best 6-game stretch of the season (he only had 25 total assists in the team's first 17 games) vs. by-far Quinn's worst 6-game stretch (before the UVa game, Quinn's lowest 6-game stretch was 32 assists). I get that Rasheed had somewhat of a role change in the last 6 games, but I don't think that totally conquers the small sample size.

GGLC
02-05-2014, 02:45 PM
He does -- 27 vs. 22 for Quinn over the last 6 games. And they've played approximately the same number of minutes (165 for Rasheed vs. 164 for Quinn). Still, I don't think it's representative to compare Rasheed's by-far best 6-game stretch of the season (he only had 25 total assists in the team's first 17 games) vs. by-far Quinn's worst 6-game stretch (before the UVa game, Quinn's lowest 6-game stretch was 32 assists). I get that Rasheed had somewhat of a role change in the last 6 games, but I don't think that totally conquers the small sample size.

To be fair, the season-long sample size also includes Rasheed's multigame slump at the beginning of the season, which I think we can all agree is not representative of his baseline ability (let alone his changed role, as you point out).

azzefkram
02-05-2014, 02:50 PM
I don't agree. With all Quinn's faults, he still runs the team better than Rasheed or anybody else on the roster. Personally, I was liking the line change thing, with Quinn going with the starting unit and Rasheed running his own unit, where he was "the man." Seemed best of both worlds to me.

Couldn't agree more. It also seemed to energize our D as well. I feel our D has been backsliding a bit the past few games but could also be a function of better competition.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 02:58 PM
To be fair, the season-long sample size also includes Rasheed's multigame slump at the beginning of the season, which I think we can all agree is not representative of his baseline ability (let alone his changed role, as you point out).

Yeah, but before the last 6 games, in Rasheed's best 6-game stretch for assists he had 13, less than half what he's done in the last 6 games. And looking back at last season, his assist percentage was only 12.0% (1.9 apg). Quinn's current 28.7% assist percentage is the lowest of his career. His 5.3 apg is exactly what he did last season.

If Rasheed continues getting 4.5 assists per game for the rest of the season and if Quinn continues to slump then it would be harder to say Quinn is clearly a better assist man, but I don't think we can properly judge based on just the last 6 games.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 03:03 PM
Couldn't agree more. It also seemed to energize our D as well. I feel our D has been backsliding a bit the past few games but could also be a function of better competition.

I agree with you, but I don't know that Wake Forest (especially without C-M) could be considered "better competition."

To me, the real question is whether the gimmick of the line change would have faded after awhile and our defense would have backslided (backslid?) anyway. We may just have a team of guys who, in order to succeed on defense, have to make a special effort to concentrate on it and may have trouble doing so.

If so, that would make a one-and-done scenario pretty scary for us fans (even scarier than usual, anyway). It also means Coach K may need to continually find motivational tools to keep his players focused on the defensive end.

FerryFor50
02-05-2014, 03:05 PM
I feel the same way, but the stats don't necessarily bear that out. Quinn's turnover percentage is 16.1 and Rasheed's is 13.0. Although maybe the numbers are skewed a little because for the first two-thirds of the season, Quinn did almost all the ball-handling and Rasheed has only been an almost-primary ballhandler for 8 games? It's hard to say from the game stats.

Quinn certainly gets more assists (28.7 assist percentage for Quinn vs. only 18.1 for Rasheed), and to my eyes the offense looks better and smoother when he's running the show.

Yea, I agree that the stats don't support it - yet. I think as Sheed handles the ball more and plays more minutes, the stats could shift a bit. Of course, it could be just that he FEELS more out of control. We'll see...

CDu
02-05-2014, 03:09 PM
I feel the same way, but the stats don't necessarily bear that out. Quinn's turnover percentage is 16.1 and Rasheed's is 13.0. Although maybe the numbers are skewed a little because for the first two-thirds of the season, Quinn did almost all the ball-handling and Rasheed has only been an almost-primary ballhandler for 8 games? It's hard to say from the game stats.

Quinn certainly gets more assists (28.7 assist percentage for Quinn vs. only 18.1 for Rasheed), and to my eyes the offense looks better and smoother when he's running the show.

I don't think the stats you're using here are the right ones for this argument. You'd need to consider their overall usage rate. I'm guessing that Cook has a much higher usage rate than Sulaimon. As you note, it wasn't until very recently that Sulaimon started becoming a high usage player for us. And even still, I wonder if Sulaimon's usage rate has been as high as Cook's in the last 8 games.

jv001
02-05-2014, 03:10 PM
Yeah, but before the last 6 games, in Rasheed's best 6-game stretch for assists he had 13, less than half what he's done in the last 6 games. And looking back at last season, his assist percentage was only 12.0% (1.9 apg). Quinn's current 28.7% assist percentage is the lowest of his career. His 5.3 apg is exactly what he did last season.

If Rasheed continues getting 4.5 assists per game for the rest of the season and if Quinn continues to slump then it would be harder to say Quinn is clearly a better assist man, but I don't think we can properly judge based on just the last 6 games.

When Rasheed and Quinn are both on their games, it's pretty close to who runs our offense the best. Quinn is probably the steadiest and knows our sets better. Rasheed is quicker, taller and gets to the basket better. They both shoot free throws well and they can both hit the 3 ball. I want to see them both playing their best at the same time. That hasn't happened many times this season, but I think we'll see it. GoDuke!

azzefkram
02-05-2014, 03:12 PM
I don't think the stats you're using here are the right ones for this argument. You'd need to consider their overall usage rate. I'm guessing that Cook has a much higher usage rate than Sulaimon. As you note, it wasn't until very recently that Sulaimon started becoming a high usage player for us. And even still, I wonder if Sulaimon's usage rate has been as high as Cook's in the last 8 games.

Don't know for the last 8 games but for the season they are comparable according to basketball-reference (19.9 vs 19.8).

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 03:32 PM
I don't think the stats you're using here are the right ones for this argument. You'd need to consider their overall usage rate. I'm guessing that Cook has a much higher usage rate than Sulaimon. As you note, it wasn't until very recently that Sulaimon started becoming a high usage player for us. And even still, I wonder if Sulaimon's usage rate has been as high as Cook's in the last 8 games.

Actually, while that makes sense, it's not true. For the season on the whole, Quinn's usage rate is 19.8 and Rasheed's is 19.9 (per sports-reference.com (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2014.html)). Given that, my guess is Sulaimon's usage rate has been higher than Quinn's over the past 6/7/8 games.

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 03:35 PM
When Rasheed and Quinn are both on their games, it's pretty close to who runs our offense the best. Quinn is probably the steadiest and knows our sets better. Rasheed is quicker, taller and gets to the basket better. They both shoot free throws well and they can both hit the 3 ball. I want to see them both playing their best at the same time. That hasn't happened many times this season, but I think we'll see it. GoDuke!

When I talk about running the offense, I'm thinking about how well the other players get into their offense. Rasheed is probably better than Quinn at getting his own offense, but to me the others appear to do better when Quinn's running things.

I wonder whether they both can play their best if they're playing together, at least combined with our current mix of offensive players.

jv001
02-05-2014, 03:49 PM
When I talk about running the offense, I'm thinking about how well the other players get into their offense. Rasheed is probably better than Quinn at getting his own offense, but to me the others appear to do better when Quinn's running things.

I wonder whether they both can play their best if they're playing together, at least combined with our current mix of offensive players.

Probably not if they play the majority of minutes together. If they are in together you then factor in; the ball will be in Quinn's hands, Jabar'is, Rodney's and Rasheed's. The line change/rotation helped both Quinn and Rasheed, especially Rasheed. When Coach K went to that substitution pattern, Rasheed seemed to take off. Do you think Duke's a better offensive team with or without them playing together. I think at times Quinn dribbles too much doing nothing. That's a waste of the shot clock. Rasheed on the other hand tries to create offense. We have a good problem with Quinn, Rasheed, Tyler, Matt and Hood being good perimeter players. How Coach K uses them when, not if, Quinn snaps out of his funk will be interesting. GoDuke!

Just re-read your post and my first one. I meant I want them playing their best basketball of the season at the same time. Not necessarily in the same lineup. But it is a good question anyway. GoDuke!

rsvman
02-05-2014, 04:05 PM
A bucket discussed at a basketball game refers to a field goal worth 2 or 3 points unless the gym catches fire I suppose. If someone gets benched for not boxing out it is because they failed their defensive not offensive assignment. In that context boxing out is what a defender does, not what the offensive player does

What are you talking about?

Boxing out refers to attempting to keep your opponent away from the glass so you can get the rebound rather than him. If one of your own teammates is the one who shot the ball, then you are, by definition, an offensive player boxing out a defensive player. If, on the other hand, it is one of the opponent's players that has launched the shot, then you are a defensive player boxing out an offensive player. Whether you are trying to garner an offensive rebound or a defensive rebound, boxing out is a pretty good place to start.

And if you fail to box out on either end, an astute coach might well decide that you need to spend some time on the bench.

FerryFor50
02-05-2014, 04:14 PM
What are you talking about?

Boxing out refers to attempting to keep your opponent away from the glass so you can get the rebound rather than him. If one of your own teammates is the one who shot the ball, then you are, by definition, an offensive player boxing out a defensive player. If, on the other hand, it is one of the opponent's players that has launched the shot, then you are a defensive player boxing out an offensive player. Whether you are trying to garner an offensive rebound or a defensive rebound, boxing out is a pretty good place to start.

And if you fail to box out on either end, an astute coach might well decide that you need to spend some time on the bench.

gotoguy is really Don Nelson. You know how he likes to think outside of the box. Who needs offensive boards anyway?

Kedsy
02-05-2014, 04:28 PM
What are you talking about?

Boxing out refers to attempting to keep your opponent away from the glass so you can get the rebound rather than him. If one of your own teammates is the one who shot the ball, then you are, by definition, an offensive player boxing out a defensive player. If, on the other hand, it is one of the opponent's players that has launched the shot, then you are a defensive player boxing out an offensive player. Whether you are trying to garner an offensive rebound or a defensive rebound, boxing out is a pretty good place to start.

And if you fail to box out on either end, an astute coach might well decide that you need to spend some time on the bench.

I don't want to speak for gotoguy, but in order to box out properly, you have to be in the right position. Because defensive players are generally closer to the basket, it's usually the defensive player who boxes out the offensive player. The only way the offensive player can box out is if he manages to get inside position, which happens but not if the defensive player does his job properly. And on a long rebound, the offensive player can "box in" the defensive player to keep him away from the ball, but that's the less usual case.

So in that sense, boxing out has more to do with defensive rebounding. Offensive rebounding usually involves quickness and hustle and slashing to the ball.

ncexnyc
02-05-2014, 04:54 PM
I can’t fault the kids for coming out flat last night, when we the fans can only muster five pages for a twenty point win. Heck, we had five pages after one hour after the loss the other night.

I don’t care what anyone on the staff is saying. Quinn is hurting physically. He had no lift whatsoever on his jump shot and the first two barely hit the rim. As has already been mentioned there was the rebound where he looked like he was stuck in concrete and finally there were a couple of instances where Wake players had the ball heading down court and Quinn was attempting to come-up from behind and poke the ball free, but he just didn’t have that extra burst of speed to catch them. I believe the only reason we saw him last night was because of the two early fouls Tyler came up with. If you recall, Quinn didn’t even get to finish out the half as Coach K put Tyler back in to finish up the half.

At the start of the season we had a thread asking us who we thought would be our best player. I was on the record as saying it would be Rasheed. I see we are now having some people raise the question as to whether he should be our starting PG. While I love his game, he is ultra-aggressive driving to the basket and at times finds himself in no-mans-land. I prefer Quinn and his superior ATO ratio.

We’ve had plenty of discussions on this thread and I’m happy to see that as the season has progressed so have the debates over playing time. We’ve progressed from the Bruise Brothers logging too much time, MP3 needs to see more playing time, Andre needs more minutes, and now the Rasheed should be the PG. I find this very refreshing, as usually our line-up was pretty much set from the get go. I believe this shows we have a lot of talent on the team and that these kids are continuing to evolve as the season progresses. No one can say we peaked in November or December like they have in the past. Let Matt have a few solid offensive games and people will be calling for him to get more time.

I really like what I’m seeing from this team. On any given night someone new can step-up and be the star of the team. Love seeing Hood play some serious lockdown defense. Love seeing Jabari go into beast mode on the boards and in the paint. Love the hustle plays from Tyler. Lots and lots of love for all our players, hey it must be close to Valentines Day.

lotusland
02-05-2014, 05:08 PM
The issue seems to revolve around foul trouble. Didn't Hood foul out last night, Parker have 4 and Jefferson 3 fouls last night? We do have options inside that might keep Hood, Parker and Jefferson out of foul trouble. Marshall and Josh are knowns but Semi may be the most intriguing with his strength and athleticism. He also seems to have an offensive side that the others lack.

I love how mp3 is a "known" now. He's been in the rotation for 6 games I think but he's prolly peaked already. We need to give his minutes to either Semi and / or an incoming recruit:)

CDu
02-05-2014, 05:24 PM
Actually, while that makes sense, it's not true. For the season on the whole, Quinn's usage rate is 19.8 and Rasheed's is 19.9 (per sports-reference.com (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/duke/2014.html)). Given that, my guess is Sulaimon's usage rate has been higher than Quinn's over the past 6/7/8 games.

But how much of that usage is shooting? Cook's assist% is much higher than Sulaimon's which suggests more of his usage is in passing the ball compared with Sulaimon. As such, a similar turnover percentage suggests he is more efficient at avoiding turnovers with his passing chances. Sulaimon is getting a higher percentage of his usage through shooting, which has a much lower risk of turnover.

So I guess pure usage rate wasn't what I was looking for either, but rather usage in high-risk situations (i.e. Passing, not shooting). I doubt that exists though, so assist/turnover ratio is probably the best proxy.

NYBri
02-05-2014, 05:37 PM
I think we're a better team with Sheed over Quinn at the point.

Sheed looks to drive first, (he's got a quicker first step) pass second...never stand around and look. He's always pressing from the top. QC likes to look around first, pass from there second and drive third. Sheed drives the action more. Depends on what we need at the moment.

I do like the pressure of Sheed always looking to move to the hoop. Keeps the defense on edge and they can't sit back on our wing guys.

vick
02-05-2014, 05:47 PM
But how much of that usage is shooting? Cook's assist% is much higher than Sulaimon's which suggests more of his usage is in passing the ball compared with Sulaimon. As such, a similar turnover percentage suggests he is more efficient at avoiding turnovers with his passing chances. Sulaimon is getting a higher percentage of his usage through shooting, which has a much lower risk of turnover.

So I guess pure usage rate wasn't what I was looking for either, but rather usage in high-risk situations (i.e. Passing, not shooting). I doubt that exists though, so assist/turnover ratio is probably the best proxy.


Sports-reference.com's usage figure (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html), which I think matches the original Dean Oliver metric although I don't have Basketball on Paper handy right now, is just a player's share of "true" shot attempts (so FGA + 0.44*FTA**) and turnovers while he is on the floor. Turnover percentage is just the percentage of this usage that is turnovers (as opposed to true shot attempts) There's a certain logic to this--possessions terminate on shots and turnovers, after all--but it makes comparing players with different roles' turnover rates a little problematic--for example, Tyler Thornton's is 22%, but it's not because he turns the ball over a whole lot, but because he doesn't take many shots. A player with 15 assists, 0 shot attempts, and 1 turnover would have a turnover rate of 100%, as I understand it. This is why I think turnover rate is probably the weakest of the so-called 'advanced' statistics.

** Or 0.475 instead of 0.44 to account for different free throw rules in college as opposed to NBA

CDu
02-05-2014, 06:25 PM
Sports-reference.com's usage figure (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html), which I think matches the original Dean Oliver metric although I don't have Basketball on Paper handy right now, is just a player's share of "true" shot attempts (so FGA + 0.44*FTA**) and turnovers while he is on the floor. Turnover percentage is just the percentage of this usage that is turnovers (as opposed to true shot attempts) There's a certain logic to this--possessions terminate on shots and turnovers, after all--but it makes comparing players with different roles' turnover rates a little problematic--for example, Tyler Thornton's is 22%, but it's not because he turns the ball over a whole lot, but because he doesn't take many shots. A player with 15 assists, 0 shot attempts, and 1 turnover would have a turnover rate of 100%, as I understand it. This is why I think turnover rate is probably the weakest of the so-called 'advanced' statistics.

** Or 0.475 instead of 0.44 to account for different free throw rules in college as opposed to NBA

Ah, I see. I was unaware that usage rate doesn't take into account assists at all. That would explain (a) why the usage rates for Sulaimon and Cook are so similar and (b) why their turnover percentages are so similar.

So basically, neither usage rate nor turnover percentage are useful for this discussion. Because turnover percentage is estimated relative to shooting, not overall play (i.e., excluding assists).

meowmix911
02-05-2014, 07:09 PM
Yea, I agree that the stats don't support it - yet. I think as Sheed handles the ball more and plays more minutes, the stats could shift a bit. Of course, it could be just that he FEELS more out of control. We'll see...

He is more out of control. It's his very nature. It's somewhat like looking at AI (Sheed) when he averaged 8.5 assists per game, versus Andre Miller's (Cook) 8.5 assists per game. One comes through natural flow, the other is forced in a very dynamic fashion. It would seem that Cook would be better suited at running offense and normal circumstances, but Sheed would be better in situations where running standard offense doesn't work (end of shot clock, end of game where defense is fully set, etc...).

Sheed obviously (at least in my opinion) has significantly higher upside, the downside being more volatility in general (and less control of his emotions in general). But, let's be honest--the team has some holes in it (most notably in the post), and we aren't winning the tournament without upside, which is why it makes sense to ramp up his minutes to see what he can do!

Go Duke!

Dukehky
02-05-2014, 07:35 PM
Sheed looks to drive first, (he's got a quicker first step) pass second...never stand around and look. He's always pressing from the top. QC likes to look around first, pass from there second and drive third. Sheed drives the action more. Depends on what we need at the moment.

I do like the pressure of Sheed always looking to move to the hoop. Keeps the defense on edge and they can't sit back on our wing guys.

Last night was the first time since Sulaimon emerged from his slump where he looked to finish on any of his drives. Previously he was driving with the intention to dish out. Last night he mixed it up a bit more, which for the opponent, is very dangerous.

oldnavy
02-05-2014, 08:07 PM
Ah, I see. I was unaware that usage rate doesn't take into account assists at all. That would explain (a) why the usage rates for Sulaimon and Cook are so similar and (b) why their turnover percentages are so similar.

So basically, neither usage rate nor turnover percentage are useful for this discussion. Because turnover percentage is estimated relative to shooting, not overall play (i.e., excluding assists).

I like our offense when Sulaimon has the ball in his hands. He is aggressive getting into lane, and good things are more likely to happen when you get into the lane. When Cook is getting into the lane I like our offense when he has the ball.

So, I like whoever successfully drives the ball into the lane. I absolutely HATE the pass/dribble around the perimeter until less than 10 seconds on the clock (unless we are in stall ball). I call that the "oh crap" offense.... as in "oh crap, we have to get a shot off now!"

Cook is really good at the rim. He can get the ball on the backboard with just the right spin. When he is full strength and able to get into the lane, he is really good.

Sulaimon seems to be better at getting past his man, and he isn't horrible at the rim, but I think Cook is the better finisher, but Sulaimon seems to be quicker and better at breaking down his defender.

I have no numbers to back up my observations... this is just how it seems to me when I watch.

ICP
02-05-2014, 08:45 PM
I think we're a better team with Sheed over Quinn at the point. We're better now and we have a higher ceiling with Sheed getting the majority of minutes at the 1. Sheed is bigger, more athletic, a better shooter, and a better defender than Quinn. He's become very good at breaking down his man and then either finishing strong or dishing to an open teammate. He may not be the pure point guard that Quinn is but I don't think that's all that important on this year's team. We have plenty of ball-handlers.
Even if Quinn is not 100% healthy, I just don't think he's reaching the elite level that we need to make a serious run at the Final 4 this year. He's really struggled with consistency, esp. against the top teams we've played.
And another important difference I've noticed is that when Sheed reacts to a poor play, it makes him more determined and he plays harder. Quinn still pouts and stands around while the next play is starting.

I couldn't agree more.

Newton_14
02-05-2014, 09:10 PM
If there is an All-conference Pouty Face team, Devin Thomas is a lock.
Since I have railed on ACC/College refs since childhood, I want to give a shout out to one of the refs last night despite their passion for calling fouls (2 of the same 3 are calling the foulfest that is UVA/BC right now). For the first time ever in my experience, a ref caught a guy flopping horribly and called him out on it. I think it was Thomas's 5th foul but him and MP3 were "near each other in the lane" and I am being kind here. For some odd reason Thomas grabs his head like he has been drilled and the whistle blows immediately. I came up out of my seat screaming "He flopped" thinking he was calling a foul on MP3. Before I finish the statement I see the ref pointing the other way. I was like "wow, he actually saw what did not happen". I was shocked. He called a foul on Thomas I assume for a terrible acting job. Have not seen it on TV yet but curious to check it out on the DVR. But you are right. Thomas put on the pouty face once he stopped scoring.


further with quinn, he's gonna let his emotions drive him....so as he plays poorly, he gets down on himself, and it prevents him from snapping out of it....i mean, where is the "beating up his teammates" in excitement after a good play? I don't see the good emotion out there for him right now
In fairness, Quinn did this several times last night coming off his seat on the bench during timeouts to chest bump or push Tyler, Jabari, and Andre. I fully agree with those that feel Quinn is no where near full strength. He is obviously operating on gimpy wheels.


I don't know why, but I find myself liking Jeff Bzdelik. He has this 'Mr. Rogers' way about him.
I used to feel the same thing but last night sealed it for me. I just don't think the guy can coach. They looked like a terribly coached team last night. After the great start, they stopped going to Thomas in the post. I think Thomas has a lot of talent but just needs to learn how to use it. They just did a lot of odd things last night and did not look well coached to me. Maybe it was the effect of not having one of their best players or something. Not sure.


When I talk about running the offense, I'm thinking about how well the other players get into their offense. Rasheed is probably better than Quinn at getting his own offense, but to me the others appear to do better when Quinn's running things.

I wonder whether they both can play their best if they're playing together, at least combined with our current mix of offensive players.
One thing Rasheed does much better than Quinn does is lead the spear of the defense as the on ball defender of the opposing teams PG. Even when Quinn gets back to health I would like to see the old Scheyer/Nolan strategy of letting Quinn lead the offense and Rasheed lead the defense. When our backcourt is Rasheed/Tyler or Rasheed/Matt we are very strong defensively on the perimeter at the 1&2 spots.

On the whole it was a good win following a very emotional loss. We did not come out flat so much as just being really bad on defense in the post. It took a long while to start getting stops. Did not help that Wake was raining 3's even when we played decent defense. Andre came in and got us going on offense, and Tyler was playing really good defense. They went on something like a 18-2 run there at one point. Nice to see Jabari getting it going down in the paint and rebounding well. Amile had a tough night, and Rodney offset a subpar offensive game with really good defense on McKie all game long.

Rasheed just played at a really high level most of the game. Very nice on both sides of the ball. I thought Matt and MP3 gave good minutes as well. All the fouls made for a long and choppy game that's for sure.

On to the next one. Time to rest up, heal up, and come out strong against Boston College this weekened.

tbyers11
02-05-2014, 09:29 PM
Since I have railed on ACC/College refs since childhood, I want to give a shout out to one of the refs last night despite their passion for calling fouls (2 of the same 3 are calling the foulfest that is UVA/BC right now). For the first time ever in my experience, a ref caught a guy flopping horribly and called him out on it. I think it was Thomas's 5th foul but him and MP3 were "near each other in the lane" and I am being kind here. For some odd reason Thomas grabs his head like he has been drilled and the whistle blows immediately. I came up out of my seat screaming "He flopped" thinking he was calling a foul on MP3. Before I finish the statement I see the ref pointing the other way. I was like "wow, he actually saw what did not happen". I was shocked. He called a foul on Thomas I assume for a terrible acting job. Have not seen it on TV yet but curious to check it out on the DVR. But you are right. Thomas put on the pouty face once he stopped scoring.


It was Thomas' 4th foul. I was watching on TV and rewound on the DVR because I thought we had been called for several fouls fighting for position in the post on defense that seemed questionable to me. On the play in question, MP3 was trying to get around Thomas to ball side and Thomas got down really low and used his posterior and a couple of backward steps to kind of "crab walk" MP3 out of position. Looked like an offensive foul for excessive contact. As MP3 tried to get around to ball side, his hand/forearm whacked Thomas in the back of the head. Like you I thought the ref was going to call a foul on MP3. However, I think the reaction time for the ref to blow his whistle caused it to happen after MP3 hit Thomas in the end and made us all think the foul was going to go against Duke.

Tappan Zee Devil
02-05-2014, 09:53 PM
I don't know why, but I find myself liking Jeff Bzdelik. He has this 'Mr. Rogers' way about him.





I used to feel the same thing but last night sealed it for me. I just don't think the guy can coach. They looked like a terribly coached team last night. After the great start, they stopped going to Thomas in the post. I think Thomas has a lot of talent but just needs to learn how to use it. They just did a lot of odd things last night and did not look well coached to me. Maybe it was the effect of not having one of their best players or something. Not sure.



Well, It is more than the appearance. Mr Rogers may have appeared dopey, but he was a great influence on my kids. Did you know he was an ordained Presbyterian minister with his show as his call?
That doesn't let Bzdelik off the hook, but please don't demean or underestimate Mr Rogers :)

Newton_14
02-05-2014, 09:54 PM
It was Thomas' 4th foul. I was watching on TV and rewound on the DVR because I thought we had been called for several fouls fighting for position in the post on defense that seemed questionable to me. On the play in question, MP3 was trying to get around Thomas to ball side and Thomas got down really low and used his posterior and a couple of backward steps to kind of "crab walk" MP3 out of position. Looked like an offensive foul for excessive contact. As MP3 tried to get around to ball side, his hand/forearm whacked Thomas in the back of the head. Like you I thought the ref was going to call a foul on MP3. However, I think the reaction time for the ref to blow his whistle caused it to happen after MP3 hit Thomas in the end and made us all think the foul was going to go against Duke.
Thanks for the explanation. I was in the corner nearest the Wake bench so it happened on our end. It looked like from our view he did not get hit, or certainly not enough to react as he did.

tbyers11
02-05-2014, 10:32 PM
Thanks for the explanation. I was in the corner nearest the Wake bench so it happened on our end. It looked like from our view he did not get hit, or certainly not enough to react as he did.

Yeah, the "hit" wasn't much. More than a light brush but not nearly enough to warrant the reaction that Thomas had

Zeb
02-05-2014, 10:43 PM
On the play in question, MP3 was trying to get around Thomas to ball side and Thomas got down really low and used his posterior and a couple of backward steps to kind of "crab walk" MP3 out of position. Looked like an offensive foul for excessive contact. As MP3 tried to get around to ball side, his hand/forearm whacked Thomas in the back of the head. .

You describe exactly what my DVR saw. My quibble is that it did not appear to be an offensive foul. I cannot recall a player getting called for a foul by using his butt to back up another player away from the ball. That happens 100 times a game in the paint, particularly on rebounds. I thought it was a bizarre call against Thomas, and should have been a no call. If they followed the letter of the law, the refs should have looked at the monitor to see if Plumlee hit him in the head with an elbow, which it appears he did (albeit inadvertently). I think the only explanation for the decision is that on the prior WF possession, MP3 had been called for an off the ball foul as he and Thomas fought for position, and I think the ref called Thomas this time in an attempt to calm things down before things got really chippy.

hustleplays
02-06-2014, 12:28 AM
Nothing about that play was MP3's fault. He was boxing out. And your peripheral vision doesn't extend over and behind your head. By the time MP3 saw the ball, it was too late. In fact, MP3 was doing EXACTLY what he should be doing - boxing out. Sheed normally either shoots that or kicks it out.

Could we also keep in mind that things are happening very fast, that Rasheed is making a split-second decision, with not a lot of time [ a second or two at most] to consider all options and decide what to do -- while he is motoring at full speed? Rasheed did not have study hall time to do a risk/gain probability analysis.

I love that Marshall was boxing out -- not a presumed practice on this year's team. Although, obviously, they are getting better. Even Jabari is experimenting with the boxing out concept. :-)

gofurman
02-06-2014, 12:51 AM
gotoguy is really Don Nelson. You know how he likes to think outside of the box. Who needs offensive boards anyway?

FYI - I THINK (not 100%) John wooden didn't like boxing out? He said just go get the rebound and quit worrying about the other guy. Kind of like runnin a sprint..if you constantly look over your shoulder at the competition you aren't running your best - just sprint your fastest and what happens happens...

Interesting.

rsvman
02-06-2014, 02:20 PM
I don't want to speak for gotoguy, but in order to box out properly, you have to be in the right position. Because defensive players are generally closer to the basket, it's usually the defensive player who boxes out the offensive player. The only way the offensive player can box out is if he manages to get inside position, which happens but not if the defensive player does his job properly. And on a long rebound, the offensive player can "box in" the defensive player to keep him away from the ball, but that's the less usual case.

So in that sense, boxing out has more to do with defensive rebounding. Offensive rebounding usually involves quickness and hustle and slashing to the ball.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

But if you look at the play in question, MP3 was clearly blocking out for the rebound. Just because it happens more often on the defensive end doesn't mean it can't happen on the offensive side.

CDu
02-06-2014, 02:42 PM
FYI - I THINK (not 100%) John wooden didn't like boxing out? He said just go get the rebound and quit worrying about the other guy. Kind of like runnin a sprint..if you constantly look over your shoulder at the competition you aren't running your best - just sprint your fastest and what happens happens...

Interesting.

I'm not sure that's a good strategy. I mean, what if the other guy is faster? Wouldn't it make more since to try to prevent him from running at his fastest (which is faster than your fastest)?

Boxing out (assuming you do it well) makes it much more difficult for the other player to get the rebound. Great box-outs can result in a shot literally reaching the floor before it is grabbed (my high school coach used to make a point to congratulate our big guys whenever their box-outs caused this to happen).

Unless you're Dennis Rodman and have a preternatural ability to seek out rebounds, it is a much better idea to box out when on the defensive glass. [note: Jefferson may be one of those types of guys)]

The "no boxing out" strategy certainly may have been fine for Wooden: his teams tended to have the best players, and they tended to have dominant big men who could get the boards. And he coached in a much less bruising era of basketball.

In today's game, boxing out is, and should be, standard procedure on defense.

Kedsy
02-06-2014, 04:12 PM
Thank you, Captain Obvious.

But if you look at the play in question, MP3 was clearly blocking out for the rebound. Just because it happens more often on the defensive end doesn't mean it can't happen on the offensive side.

You're welcome Miss Snark. Based on your previous posts which suggested boxing out had equal validity on both sides of the ball, it didn't seem so obvious.

As far as the play, I just re-watched it and I disagree with your assessment. Marshall spread wide, apparently looking to receive the ball, and held that position when Rasheed rose off the floor. At the moment the ball left Rasheed's hand, Marshall was still facing him, except Marshall didn't realize Rasheed had released the ball. He must have already decided he wasn't getting it so he stopped looking and turned (a split second after Rasheed let go) to attempt to box out. To me it looked like he'd turned in his mind before he did with his body.

Considering how seldom he gets that pass, you can't blame Marshall for not expecting it and wanting to get into better rebounding position. And you can't blame Rasheed for passing to a guy who was still facing him -- he had no way of knowing Marshall had stopped looking. Just basic miscommunication. Nobody's fault.

Kedsy
02-06-2014, 04:17 PM
Boxing out (assuming you do it well) makes it much more difficult for the other player to get the rebound. Great box-outs can result in a shot literally reaching the floor before it is grabbed (my high school coach used to make a point to congratulate our big guys whenever their box-outs caused this to happen).

It's funny, but I was always told that Wooden described that (when the ball hits the floor due to good boxing out) as the perfect rebound. Which runs counter to gofurman's report of Wooden's philosophy. No idea which is accurate. I guess when you're as good as Wooden, you can be quoted on both sides of any issue. ;)

-jk
02-06-2014, 04:33 PM
Play nicely, guys...

thanks,

-jk

CDu
02-06-2014, 04:34 PM
You're welcome Miss Snark. Based on your previous posts which suggested boxing out had equal validity on both sides of the ball, it didn't seem so obvious.

As far as the play, I just re-watched it and I disagree with your assessment. Marshall spread wide, apparently looking to receive the ball, and held that position when Rasheed rose off the floor. At the moment the ball left Rasheed's hand, Marshall was still facing him, except Marshall didn't realize Rasheed had released the ball. He must have already decided he wasn't getting it so he stopped looking and turned (a split second after Rasheed let go) to attempt to box out. To me it looked like he'd turned in his mind before he did with his body.

I re-watched it as well, and I had a slightly different take. I agree with you right up until the "at the moment the ball left Sulaimon's hand" part. I think that Plumlee started turning to focus on the rebound right as Sulaimon started to pass. He turned his head a split second before Sulaimon made the pass.

I agree that Plumlee wasn't yet in box-out position (though he was inside of his man). But he was definitely not still facing Sulaimon, because Sulaimon's drive had actually taken him slightly behind Plumlee at that point. Plumlee looked over his head/shoulder for a while, but eventually turned his head toward the rim (just before or just as Sulaimon threw the pass).


Considering how seldom he gets that pass, you can't blame Marshall for not expecting it and wanting to get into better rebounding position. And you can't blame Rasheed for passing to a guy who was still facing him -- he had no way of knowing Marshall had stopped looking. Just basic miscommunication. Nobody's fault.

Totally agree on this. Just an unfortunate break. Neither guy did anything specifically wrong individually - they just weren't quite on the same page.

The only thing I didn't care for was Sulaimon's response. He was a little too demonstrative in his displeasure with the result, and that could easily be interpreted as frustration with Plumlee. It may have just been frustration with himself and/or the result, but you have to be careful about such things.

DukeDevil
02-06-2014, 04:40 PM
Well, It is more than the appearance. Mr Rogers may have appeared dopey, but he was a great influence on my kids. Did you know he was an ordained Presbyterian minister with his show as his call?
That doesn't let Bzdelik off the hook, but please don't demean or underestimate Mr Rogers :)

Late and off topic, but Mr. Rogers was pretty awesome.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-moments-that-prove-mr.-rogers-was-greatest-american/

Slightly more on topic, Bzdelik rubs me the wrong way. I think he's a bad coach, but the thing that really made me dislike him initially was after a bad loss by wake. In the post game presser, he basically said something like "well we had a good game plan but nobody would follow it." I'm obviously misquoting, but he definitely put the whole blame on the loss on his players...and I just feel this is wrong to do in public. Even if you had the perfect game plan, even if the players really didn't follow it and didn't listen to you...keep that stuff in house. I just can't imagine K ever doing something like that...though I clearly have a bias.

Kedsy
02-06-2014, 04:56 PM
Totally agree on this. Just an unfortunate break. Neither guy did anything specifically wrong individually - they just weren't quite on the same page.

The only thing I didn't care for was Sulaimon's response. He was a little too demonstrative in his displeasure with the result, and that could easily be interpreted as frustration with Plumlee. It may have just been frustration with himself and/or the result, but you have to be careful about such things.

Yeah, I agree. No reason for Rasheed to take anything out on Marshall, or even give that appearance.

superdave
02-06-2014, 05:59 PM
Late and off topic, but Mr. Rogers was pretty awesome.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-moments-that-prove-mr.-rogers-was-greatest-american/

Slightly more on topic, Bzdelik rubs me the wrong way. I think he's a bad coach, but the thing that really made me dislike him initially was after a bad loss by wake. In the post game presser, he basically said something like "well we had a good game plan but nobody would follow it." I'm obviously misquoting, but he definitely put the whole blame on the loss on his players...and I just feel this is wrong to do in public. Even if you had the perfect game plan, even if the players really didn't follow it and didn't listen to you...keep that stuff in house. I just can't imagine K ever doing something like that...though I clearly have a bias.

Wake fans agree with you. Giving is down and they wont like him even if they manage to win 20+ games this year. They just really seem to hate this guy.

I thought Wake had a good strategy though. Pull everyone out of the paint and try to drive the ball. It worked pretty well for Vermont. But Wake couldnt quite sustain it.

MartyClark
02-06-2014, 06:20 PM
Late and off topic, but Mr. Rogers was pretty awesome.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-moments-that-prove-mr.-rogers-was-greatest-american/

Slightly more on topic, Bzdelik rubs me the wrong way. I think he's a bad coach, but the thing that really made me dislike him initially was after a bad loss by wake. In the post game presser, he basically said something like "well we had a good game plan but nobody would follow it." I'm obviously misquoting, but he definitely put the whole blame on the loss on his players...and I just feel this is wrong to do in public. Even if you had the perfect game plan, even if the players really didn't follow it and didn't listen to you...keep that stuff in house. I just can't imagine K ever doing something like that...though I clearly have a bias.

I agree with you. He's kind of an odd guy. He did fairly well at Colorado where, because of his NBA connections, he got a couple of current NBA guys. I was sorry to see him leave but the new coach, Tad Boyle, is far superior.

I have met Bzdelik, sort of, a couple of times. His daughter was good friends with my niece. He does not light up a room with his personality (of course, neither do I). He comes across a gloomy type of guy.

Newton_14
02-06-2014, 10:19 PM
I'm not sure that's a good strategy. I mean, what if the other guy is faster? Wouldn't it make more since to try to prevent him from running at his fastest (which is faster than your fastest)?

Boxing out (assuming you do it well) makes it much more difficult for the other player to get the rebound. Great box-outs can result in a shot literally reaching the floor before it is grabbed (my high school coach used to make a point to congratulate our big guys whenever their box-outs caused this to happen).

Unless you're Dennis Rodman and have a preternatural ability to seek out rebounds, it is a much better idea to box out when on the defensive glass. [note: Jefferson may be one of those types of guys)]

The "no boxing out" strategy certainly may have been fine for Wooden: his teams tended to have the best players, and they tended to have dominant big men who could get the boards. And he coached in a much less bruising era of basketball.

In today's game, boxing out is, and should be, standard procedure on defense.

Totally agree here. In High School we ran box out drills every single practice, guards included (I played PG) and it was taught like religion. It was drilled into our heads to ignore the ball once it left the shooters hand, find a man, box him out, and if you picked up the rebound after the ball had hit the floor that was perfect. I put that to practice as often as possible in games as it was a very effective way to steal a rebound from a bigger guy who could out jump you.

It is becoming a lost art though. Too many kids just rely on their jumping ability and never put a body on anyone. Not sure if coaches just don't emphasize it, or players just don't do it. The only time you see kids encouraging teammates to block out is on foul shots. On our current team, Josh, MP3, and Amile do it more often than anyone else. The other guys ball watch and try to use quickness and jumping ability.