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View Full Version : Latest Updates on UNC-CH Academic Scandal - Carolina says "oops!"



FerryFor50
01-27-2014, 09:40 PM
UNC apologizes for fake classes (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-27/university-of-north-carolina-apologizes-for-fake-classes-promises-real-change)

OldPhiKap
01-27-2014, 09:47 PM
UNC apologizes for fake classes (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-27/university-of-north-carolina-apologizes-for-fake-classes-promises-real-change)

"That painful history consists of the transformation of UNC’s former African and Afro-American Studies Department into a factory churning out fake grades from phony classes disproportionately attended by varsity athletes. No one is disputing that anymore. What’s still unclear is the degree to which Chapel Hill’s powerful Athletic Department initiated and/or exploited the fraudulent Afro-Am department."

PR folks finally earning their money -- tear off the bandage and start the healing.

Good find, thanks!

Henderson
01-27-2014, 09:49 PM
UNC apologizes for fake classes (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-27/university-of-north-carolina-apologizes-for-fake-classes-promises-real-change)

Whoa, this is way much more than that. New thread please.

But let's be careful about distinguishing between what the author, Barrett, says and what the UNC people are saying in their interviews.

FerryFor50
01-27-2014, 09:51 PM
Whoa, this is way much more than that. New thread please.

I like to drop info ninja-style...

Atlanta Duke
01-27-2014, 09:58 PM
UNC apologizes for fake classes (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-27/university-of-north-carolina-apologizes-for-fake-classes-promises-real-change)

Provost Dean is still chapped about Ms. Willingham's statements but walks back his misrepresentations when he is challenged

“She’s said that our students can’t read, our athletes can’t read, and that’s a lie,” he said. “Mary Willingham has done our students a great disservice.”

The BusinessWeek writer fires back

When I interrupted Dean to point out his distortion of Willingham’s claims, he immediately conceded he had misspoken and restated his criticism in more precise terms. He also said that he doesn’t think Willingham is a liar—then why use the word “lie”?—assumes she’s well meaning, and shares with him and Folt the ultimate goal of seeing that top athletes leave Chapel Hill with an education that prepares them for life beyond the sports arena.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-27/university-of-north-carolina-apologizes-for-fake-classes-promises-real-change#p2

As I noted previously with regard to no Carolina official wanting any part of being cross-examined under oath in the O'Bannon case or any other litigation, it is a lot more difficult to peddle nonsense when someone beyond your authority can call you out

BD80
01-27-2014, 09:59 PM
UNC apologizes for fake classes (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-27/university-of-north-carolina-apologizes-for-fake-classes-promises-real-change)

BusinessWeek ...

"Dean said he had commissioned an internal study on the entire history of African and African-American studies at UNC. He said he’s determined to get to the bottom of what forces and personalities caused the program’s ugly corruption. He also vowed to “look at” whether athletes were “clustering” in other departments and classes reputed to be the source of easy grades."

Or the Onion?

Tis high comedy it tis. "We have to protect our phoney baloney jobs here, gentlemen! We must do something about this immediately! Immediately! Immediately! Harrumph! Harrumph! Harrumph!"

Why commission yet another internal study (is this #8?) when the university proclaimed previous studies showed this was all the fault of a single rogue professor?

OldPhiKap
01-27-2014, 10:01 PM
Give BD80 a harrumph!!!!!!!!

Henderson
01-27-2014, 10:04 PM
Did someone at UNC-CH use the phrase "ugly corruption" to describe the AFAM program there? Kind of an important question I think.

Reilly
01-27-2014, 10:10 PM
Reilly summed it up well when he posted the same link on Saturday. ...

That wasn't really my summing up ... it was the title of that section of the blog post that the author put on it -- like an award he was giving out. And Jason, it wasn't really a Washington Post editorial (that is, not the official voice of the editorial page, or even an op-ed columnist .... rather, just a blog post from a lawyer ... the Post is now 'hosting' the legal blog "the Volokh Conspiracy" ... so it makes it look like it may be coming from the Post or one its columnists, but it's not, really) ...

Atlanta Duke
01-27-2014, 10:15 PM
Fun fact at the end of the BusinessWeek article that might explain why Mr. Dean traveled to New York to chat with the reporter

Peter Grauer, the chairman of Bloomberg L.P., which owns Bloomberg Businessweek, is a trustee of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and sits on its Foundation Board and the UNC Global Research Institute Board.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-27/university-of-north-carolina-apologizes-for-fake-classes-promises-real-change#p2

If it gets stonewalled in the future, maybe BusinessWeek can ask the Bloomberg chairman how the "internal study on the entire history of African and African-American studies at UNC" is progressing:)

Dev11
01-27-2014, 11:45 PM
Give BD80 a harrumph!!!!!!!!

Harrumph!

gumbomoop
01-28-2014, 01:58 AM
"That painful history consists of the transformation of UNC’s former African and Afro-American Studies Department into a factory churning out fake grades from phony classes disproportionately attended by varsity athletes. No one is disputing that anymore. What’s still unclear is the degree to which Chapel Hill’s powerful Athletic Department initiated and/or exploited the fraudulent Afro-Am department.... Dean said he had commissioned an internal study on the entire history of African and African-American studies at UNC. He said he’s determined to get to the bottom of what forces and personalities caused the program’s ugly corruption."

I have "debated" several good posters re the issue of whether UNC's AFAM was founded as a sham department to keep athletes eligible. I still don't think so.

But.

I must concede that several of the scenarios here posited by the Provost do not support my position. [1] Most ominously, if the "powerful Athletic Department initiated" the program, I'm flat out, 100% wrong. [2] If the program, however legitimately begun, was early "transformed" into a "factory churning out fake grades," then any defense - mine - of its legitimacy is severely compromised. [3] Similarly, if the "ugly corruption" was pervasive enough actually to justify labeling the department generally as "fraudulent," my previously stated opinion that "a corner," rather than "the core," of the program was a sham will be shown to have been misguided.

An ominous thought has recently crossed my mind, one that would solve a most puzzling aspect of this scandal: Is it possible that the UNC faculty have seemed so reticent in defense of their AFAM colleagues because, at least until its reconstruction, the program did not merit defending? I don't believe that to be the case. But.

Although I can easily understand the skepticism with which a promise of an internal study is met, if by chance a thorough study of the program's "entire history" is undertaken, maybe it will provide something close to a definitive assessment of what proportion of AFAM was illegitimate, and what proportion, even if judged guilty by association, was nevertheless academically solid.

I dearly want the scammers and conspirators to be exposed and punished. Take away a title or two, ok by me. But more important to me is that those faculty members who provided challenging courses on interesting and important issues be vindicated. Whatever their number. Which, heaven knows, I hope is substantial.

94duke
01-28-2014, 09:09 AM
From the end of the article:

Now Dean and Folt are conceding that the story is more complicated and does have something to do with athletics.

That concession ought to bring NCAA investigators back to Chapel Hill. The sports association took a pass on probing the scandal, based on the notion that it didn’t have anything to do with athletes and therefore was outside the NCAA’s jurisdiction.


Only time will tell if the NCAA takes another look.

BD80
01-28-2014, 04:46 PM
What I find telling is that no player has stepped up to defend the school or his effort in getting a degree. No one is saying: "Hey, I don't know about others, but I went to classes and did the work."

I'm not saying all tar heels are as dumb as Stackhouse, but it wouldn't surprise me if the sense of entitlement was so great that all of the athletes were given a few grades and had at least a few fraudulent classes.

FerryFor50
01-28-2014, 08:11 PM
The hits keep on coming...

CNN remains tenacious in its UNC academic fraud coverage (http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/28/us/ncaa-athletes-unc/index.html?c=us)

CameronBornAndBred
01-28-2014, 08:43 PM
The hits keep on coming...

CNN remains tenacious in its UNC academic fraud coverage (http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/28/us/ncaa-athletes-unc/index.html?c=us)
The last line is frustrating.

The NCAA told CNN on Monday it won't comment on whether the university will take a second look.

Henderson
01-28-2014, 08:54 PM
The last line is frustrating.

Think that's frustrating? Imagine how frustrating it must be not to be able to read the word "Wisconsin." How can a kid plan his spring break?

OldPhiKap
01-28-2014, 09:30 PM
The hits keep on coming...

CNN remains tenacious in its UNC academic fraud coverage (http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/28/us/ncaa-athletes-unc/index.html?c=us)

"Day late, dollar short"

throatybeard
01-28-2014, 10:14 PM
Wait, their Provost's surname is Dean? That's hilarious.

I wonder if the Dean of Arts & Sciences' name is Provost.

duke96
01-28-2014, 10:17 PM
Wait, their Provost's surname is Dean? That's hilarious.

I wonder if the Dean of Arts & Sciences' name is Provost.

Roger, Roger.

FerryFor50
01-28-2014, 10:19 PM
Wait, their Provost's surname is Dean? That's hilarious.

I wonder if the Dean of Arts & Sciences' name is Provost.

They felt his name would bring credibility to the position...

-jk
01-28-2014, 10:19 PM
Roger, Roger.

And don't call me Shirley.

-jk

FerryFor50
01-28-2014, 10:20 PM
And don't call me Shirley.

-jk

I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue...

OldPhiKap
01-28-2014, 10:33 PM
Roger, Roger.

Major Major Major Major.

(Where is SnowdenIsCold??)

snowdenscold
01-28-2014, 11:04 PM
Major Major Major Major.

(Where is SnowdenIsCold??)

Reporting for duty :D

And here's my attempt at a Catch-22/Airplane crossover:


[Setting: in an airplane above Avignon]
I'm cold," Snowden said again in a frail, childlike voice. "I'm cold."
"You'd better tell the Captain we've got to land as soon as we can. This man has to be gotten to a hospital."
"A hospital?! What is it?"
"It's a big building with patients, but that's not what's important right now."

OldPhiKap
01-28-2014, 11:09 PM
Reporting for duty :D

And here's my attempt at a Catch-22/Airplane crossover:


I'm cold," Snowden said again in a frail, childlike voice. "I'm cold."
"You'd better tell the Captain we've got to land as soon as we can. This man has to be gotten to a hospital."
"A hospital?! What is it?"
"It's a big building with patients, but that's not what's important right now."

Could not have Airplane! without Heller having come first.

Other than Nately's -- um, female friend -- the stories are remarkably similar.

ricks68
01-29-2014, 12:21 AM
Major Major Major Major.

(Where is SnowdenIsCold??)

Darn! Beat me to it. I gotta stop reading these threads so late at night after they are posted. I would like to add, however, that Joseph Heller spent the night in my dorm talking to us after giving a lecture in the late 60's. (Gosh, I wish it was even in the 50's, or even the 40's right now! The snow sure is pretty in the mountains, though.):)

ricks

miramar
01-29-2014, 10:54 AM
First, the administration said that Mary Willingham's research was bogus.

Now they admit that some of their classes were bogus.

I wonder what's next.

TruBlu
01-29-2014, 11:25 AM
First, the administration said that Mary Willingham's research was bogus.

Now they admit that some of their classes were bogus.

I wonder what's next.

Maybe that their banners are bogus? Nah.

OldPhiKap
01-29-2014, 11:27 AM
First, the administration said that Mary Willingham's research was bogus.

Now they admit that some of their classes were bogus.

I wonder what's next.


Maybe that their banners are bogus? Nah.

"Helms degree"

PackMan97
01-29-2014, 12:05 PM
UNC apologizes for fake classes (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-27/university-of-north-carolina-apologizes-for-fake-classes-promises-real-change)


Dean, normally a measured man and every inch the courtly former business school dean, got emotional in our conversation when discussing Willingham. “She’s said that our students can’t read, our athletes can’t read, and that’s a lie,” he said. “Mary Willingham has done our students a great disservice.”

....

"When I interrupted Dean to point out his distortion of Willingham’s claims, he immediately conceded he had misspoken and restated his criticism in more precise terms"

This is the money line right here. Dean knows the truth, he knows what he is saying about MW is a lie. What he does is go to the press with the story they want told. If the Press is lazy and doesn't do any work, that lie gets printed. If Dean gets called to task it's a "misstatement". They will tell the biggest lie they can get away with.

These are not the actions of someone looking to accept responsibility and get to the bottom of the scandal.

Olympic Fan
01-29-2014, 03:15 PM
Amazing the connections that pop out at you on the web.

I was just looking at the Durham-in-Wonderland blog, which links to a story that KC Johnson wrote about the burgeoning AFAM scandal at UNC. He also has a note that UNC has listed as required reading for incoming freshmen a book by Duke prof Tim Tyson, one of the most radical of the anti-lacrosse leaders (who at one point suggested it was probably illegal and certainly unethical for the lacrosse players to demand lawyers before talking to the police).

That's an old topic, but in the course of reading Johnson's old story about Tyson, I ran across a quote from Fats Thomas, who was involved with Crystal Mangum.

Just amazing to me that Thomas, of course, shows up in the PJ Hairston scandal as the ex-felon who provided high end rentals to Hairston (and, apparently, other UNC basketball players).

OldPhiKap
01-29-2014, 03:27 PM
Amazing the connections that pop out at you on the web.

I was just looking at the Durham-in-Wonderland blog, which links to a story that KC Johnson wrote about the burgeoning AFAM scandal at UNC. He also has a note that UNC has listed as required reading for incoming freshmen a book by Duke prof Tim Tyson, one of the most radical of the anti-lacrosse leaders (who at one point suggested it was probably illegal and certainly unethical for the lacrosse players to demand lawyers before talking to the police).

That's an old topic, but in the course of reading Johnson's old story about Tyson, I ran across a quote from Fats Thomas, who was involved with Crystal Mangum.

Just amazing to me that Thomas, of course, shows up in the PJ Hairston scandal as the ex-felon who provided high end rentals to Hairston (and, apparently, other UNC basketball players).

"UNC . . . required reading . . . ."

Quit pulling our leg.

Henderson
01-29-2014, 06:57 PM
"UNC . . . required reading . . . ."

Quit pulling our leg.

No, no. You missed it. UNC: "This is required reading. We trust that you will. There won't be any classes or tests in that regard, but there will be a paper of 100 words on the subject, 'How the book felt in my hands as I flipped through it looking for pictures.' Pass/fail, and we encourage you to cooperate with your colleagues in preparing your paper."

PSurprise
01-29-2014, 07:59 PM
No, no. You missed it. UNC: "This is required reading. We trust that you will. There won't be any classes or tests in that regard, but there will be a paper of 100 words on the subject, 'How the book felt in my hands as I flipped through it looking for pictures.' Pass/fail, and we encourage you to cooperate with your colleagues in preparing your paper."

I would like to audit that class. Where do I sign up? :)

Trinity_93
01-30-2014, 12:56 AM
I would like to audit that class. Where do I sign up? :)

It's an upper-level class so there are some prerequisites. How's your jump shot?

daveyro
01-30-2014, 12:48 PM
K attains the excellence over decades and the only thing I could find on search engines using combinations of Duke + Basketball +Scandal is the Lance Thomas allegations. The man can do it clean.

Joey...you ever been in a Turskish Prison?

PackMan97
01-30-2014, 04:31 PM
K attains the excellence over decades and the only thing I could find on search engines using combinations of Duke + Basketball +Scandal is the Lance Thomas allegations. The man can do it clean.

Joey...you ever been in a Turskish Prison?

Corey Magette and Piggy before that...but most of that was from Magette's high school days.

Kedsy
01-30-2014, 05:00 PM
Wait, their Provost's surname is Dean? That's hilarious.

I wonder if the Dean of Arts & Sciences' name is Provost.

And I'm pretty sure James Dean used to be Dean of the business school at UNC, making him (at that time) Dean Dean.

Duvall
01-30-2014, 05:04 PM
And I'm pretty sure James Dean used to be Dean of the business school at UNC, making him (at that time) Dean Dean.

Oh, the provost is from the business school? That probably explains why he's been acting more like a tobacco executive than an academic.

arnie
01-30-2014, 05:10 PM
Corey Magette and Piggy before that...but most of that was from Magette's high school days.

Which part of the Piggy-Maggette story was not from Maggette's high school days?

flyingdutchdevil
01-30-2014, 05:10 PM
Oh, the provost is from the business school? That probably explains why he's been acting more like a tobacco executive than an academic.

:( We're not all bad from the business world...

DukieInKansas
01-30-2014, 05:28 PM
Which part of the Piggy-Maggette story was not from Maggette's high school days?

The made up part?

OldPhiKap
01-30-2014, 05:39 PM
The made up part?

Exactly.

This is a thread about UNC and academics. It would be appreciated by this humble reader if we kinda kept it on topic.

PackMan97
01-30-2014, 09:53 PM
Exactly.

This is a thread about UNC and academics. It would be appreciated by this humble reader if we kinda kept it on topic.

I was thinking the finding out part. I was only providing another data point to discuss.

Regardless, I do agree let's get back on topic. A new Dan Kane article where a former UNC Dean comes out and backs Mary's story.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/30/3578294/a-former-unc-dean-recalls-athletes.html

UrinalCake
01-30-2014, 10:25 PM
A new Dan Kane article where a former UNC Dean comes out and backs Mary's story.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/30/3578294/a-former-unc-dean-recalls-athletes.html

And the hits just keep on coming... in this case a highly respected professor and former Dean who speaks out in support of Willingham. This must be like Chinese water torture for UNC fans, every couple of days a new article is published that contradicts whatever excuse or diversion their administration has been trying to use.

Dr. Rosenrosen
01-30-2014, 10:28 PM
Now they're going out of their way to acknowledge the school's "past" transgressions while reminding everyone that the "new" leadership team had nothing to do with the fraud.

Sounds like they have hired Roy as their new PR consultant. Anyone not named Folt, Dean or Cunningham better watch out for speeding buses.

FerryFor50
01-30-2014, 10:32 PM
Now they're going out of their way to acknowledge the school's "past" transgressions while reminding everyone that the "new" leadership team had nothing to do with the fraud.

Sounds like they have hired Roy as their new PR consultant. Anyone not named Folt, Dean or Cunningham better watch out for speeding buses.

What's the statute of limitations on NCAA violations?

MulletMan
01-30-2014, 10:36 PM
What's the statute of limitations on NCAA violations?

One day shorter than when the NCAA wraps up thier investigation into this sham.

OldPhiKap
01-30-2014, 10:42 PM
I was thinking the finding out part. I was only providing another data point to discuss.

Regardless, I do agree let's get back on topic. A new Dan Kane article where a former UNC Dean comes out and backs Mary's story.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/30/3578294/a-former-unc-dean-recalls-athletes.html

Great link, Pack!

Big props to our Wolf cousins for breaking, exposing, and tenaciously pursuing this story.

ncexnyc
01-30-2014, 10:45 PM
And here we see a stark contrast in style. Ms. Levine says she remembers a particular event and having a discussion about the matter with a UNC counterpart and gives us a specific name. On the other hand when Mr. Dean went on the assault against Ms. Willingham, he claims to have discussed the use of the SATA test with a person from the company that makes the test, but never tells us who it was. Was it the President of the company, an office clerk, or some guy back on the shipping dock.

moonpie23
01-30-2014, 10:56 PM
when will they start calling her a liar?…..this is getting deep……and the NCAA loses as much credibility as the university…..




but Jim martin got paid, right?

77devil
01-31-2014, 08:02 AM
Now they're going out of their way to acknowledge the school's "past" transgressions while reminding everyone that the "new" leadership team had nothing to do with the fraud.

Sounds like they have hired Roy as their new PR consultant. Anyone not named Folt, Dean or Cunningham better watch out for speeding buses.

If the UNC Board was committed to the truth they would launch a truly independent investigation and instruct the President, Chancellor, and Provost to provide unfettered access and let the investigation go wherever the evidence takes it. The Martin probe was highly limited by the university and not independent to begin with. Anything less means that the board and top leadership are continuing to try to finesse the matter to protect the crown jewel, the basketball program that Dean built, and possibly 2 banners hanging in the Dome.

Whether the UNC community is successful in continuing the cover up remains to be seen. Whether or not the extent of past transgressions is ever revealed, it is almost certain that UNC athletics will suffer in the future as it's recruiting is limited to players who can do basic college level academic work.

stillcrazie
01-31-2014, 08:07 AM
If the UNC Board was committed to the truth they would launch a truly independent investigation and instruct the President, Chancellor, and Provost to provide unfettered access and let the investigation go wherever the evidence takes it. The Martin probe was highly limited by the university and not independent to begin with. Anything less means that the board and top leadership are continuing to try to finesse the matter to protect the crown jewel, the basketball program that Dean built, and possibly 2 banners hanging in the Dome.

Whether the UNC community is successful in continuing the cover up remains to be seen. Whether or not the extent of past transgressions is ever revealed, it is almost certain that UNC athletics will suffer in the future as it's recruiting is limited to players who can do basic college level academic work.

I heard on WCHL yesterday that there is an independent investigation going on.

oldnavy
01-31-2014, 09:07 AM
I honestly do not think that anything of significance is going to come of all this. The NCAA is not interested by all appearances, and UNC just has to go into the four corners and wait it out.

However the reputation has suffered a big blow, but this will die a slow death...

BD80
01-31-2014, 09:23 AM
I heard on WCHL yesterday that there is an independent investigation going on.

But they also said there will not be a new "probe," so they are probably looking to reshuffle the deck of cards already played to make it look like they have done something, and they are now very contrite.

miramar
01-31-2014, 09:29 AM
I honestly do not think that anything of significance is going to come of all this. The NCAA is not interested by all appearances, and UNC just has to go into the four corners and wait it out.

However the reputation has suffered a big blow, but this will die a slow death...

I think UNC would have been better off going to the 1979 UNC-Duke stall, but they shot themselves in the foot by attacking Willingham so strongly and in such a personal fashion. All they did was add more fuel to the fire.

If they disagree with her findings, which they have every right to do, then they should have just said so in a quiet and professional manner, but that may be asking too much.

Atlanta Duke
01-31-2014, 09:44 AM
I honestly do not think that anything of significance is going to come of all this. The NCAA is not interested by all appearances, and UNC just has to go into the four corners and wait it out.

However the reputation has suffered a big blow, but this will die a slow death...

As far as the NCAA getting involved my guess is this goes nowhere - but college sports corruption and player exploitation is an ongoing national story for which Carolina is the current symbol. I doubt this is the last time Chapel Hill will be hearing from Business Week now that Provost Dean took his field trip to New York last week and drew return fire when he tossed out his talking points regarding how awful Ms. Willingham is. One variable is whether the chairman of Bloomberg, which owns Business Week, will use his position as a UNC trustee to push for a truly independent investigation rather than a Jim Martin type review in which Martin threw up his hands and issued a recent disclaimer to the N&O that "t is always possible that some truths could not be discovered because of the limitations of our authority."

[I]Jim Martin: We found what we could at UNC
http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/01/02/2579556/jim-martin-we-found-what-we-could.html#storylink=cpy

BD80
01-31-2014, 09:45 AM
I think UNC would have been better off going to the 1979 UNC-Duke stall, but they shot themselves in the foot by attacking Willingham so strongly and in such a personal fashion. All they did was add more fuel to the fire.

If they disagree with her findings, which they have every right to do, then they should have just said so in a quiet and professional manner, but that may be asking too much.

Old saw in legal circles:

When the law is in your favor, argue the law.

When the facts are in your favor, argue the facts.

When you have neither, bang on the table ...

CameronBornAndBred
01-31-2014, 09:47 AM
I heard on WCHL yesterday that there is an independent investigation going on.
Probably led by that person ncexynyc mentioned..."some guy back on the shipping dock".

oldnavy
01-31-2014, 09:58 AM
Just took a look at IC... they have a recent thread bashing Mary Willingham.

Evidently, UNC does have student athletes who read very well (college level!) and actually do go to real classes and graduate, so they seem to think that MW doesn't have a point and is just trying to get a book deal...

I can see their point... I mean if you can point out exceptions to her claim, then the whole thing falls apart.... or does it?? :confused:

Henderson
01-31-2014, 09:59 AM
I think UNC would have been better off going to the 1979 UNC-Duke stall, but they shot themselves in the foot by attacking Willingham so strongly and in such a personal fashion. All they did was add more fuel to the fire.

If they disagree with her findings, which they have every right to do, then they should have just said so in a quiet and professional manner, but that may be asking too much.

But that tactic didn't work for them in 1979. At the end of the first half, it was 7-0 Duke. And the game ended 47-40 after Dean gave up the four corners. Ah, I remember it as though it was only 35 years ago.

There are three strikes against UNC-CH here:

1. The substance of the problems;
2. The perception and news surrounding the substance of the problems; and
3. The administration seems intent on blowing holes in its own feet at every turn.

This is going to go on a long long time. Willingham and another UNC-CH faculty member are writing a book.

alteran
01-31-2014, 10:08 AM
I heard on WCHL yesterday that there is an independent investigation going on.

Provost Dean (seriously) said there WAS no actual independent probe, just his office looking for problems and combing through old records. Presumably Willingham's.

PackMan97
01-31-2014, 10:17 AM
Provost Dean (seriously) said there WAS no actual independent probe, just his office looking for problems and combing through old records. Presumably Willingham's.

To my knowledge, there is no independent investigation going on.

I'm not sure how one would happen at this point. Someone not involved in this scandal would need to appoint the investigators. Letting UNC, the BOT, the BOG, the ACC or the NCAA appoint an investigator is not "independent" since all of those entities have shown a willingness to not only ignore this scandal but in some cases aid and assist in the coverup.

The one investigation I want is to let PackPride have all the academic transcripts and emails from the Athletic Department and just watch them go to town :) Not gonna happen, but it is what I dream about.

roywhite
01-31-2014, 10:28 AM
I was thinking the finding out part. I was only providing another data point to discuss.

Regardless, I do agree let's get back on topic. A new Dan Kane article where a former UNC Dean comes out and backs Mary's story.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/30/3578294/a-former-unc-dean-recalls-athletes.html

This linked piece also contains a link to Levine's open letter to the UNC administration.

Some of the content of that letter is blunt and IMO hits the nail on the head:


It has been painful to watch UNC spokespersons over the past few years ignoring, denying, obfuscating, and redefining the serious problem we have with revenue sports and our high-profile teams. Making one apparently corrupt faculty member the fall guy for something much larger does not help. Making a show of peering through the windows of classrooms as if all faculty members are potential crooks only demeans the faculty and is a laughable “solution” to the wrong problem. And certainly villifying a bearer of bad news as if she is the problem fools nobody and only contributes to the bad press UNC is receiving nationally and even internationally.


Perhaps chief among these questions is the extent to which the success of our basketball and football teams has depended on keeping the strongest athletes academically eligible through impermissible assistance by their tutors and by enrollment in courses, some of them spurious, in which they were guaranteed the grades necessary to meet NCAA “standards.” There are many other questions. You know what they are.

sagegrouse
01-31-2014, 10:33 AM
Here's the essence: blame others and remind everyone that we weren't in charge then.


On Thursday, Folt responded to Levine in an email, saying she valued the input and was passing the comments along to Dean and to athletic director Bubba Cunningham. “I can assure you that I and the new leadership team take the past athletic and academic issues very seriously,” Folt wrote. “We also want to be clear in saying that we accept accountability for the past and are continuing to learn as a community from those painful lessons.”

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/30/3578294/a-former-unc-dean-recalls-athletes.html#storylink=cpy

Uh, doesn't "accept accountability" truly mean that there are even more chances to blame Holden Thorp, Julius Nyang'oro, Bick Baddour, and Butch Davis for these transgressions?

alteran
01-31-2014, 10:41 AM
Here's the essence: blame others and remind everyone that we weren't in charge then.



Yeah, that sentence jumped out at me as well. Very pathetic.

UrinalCake
01-31-2014, 11:21 AM
I honestly do not think that anything of significance is going to come of all this...

I don't know, a lot of people (mostly State fans) spent all summer bemoaning the fact that "nothing will ever happen" to PJ, and that "PJ be back for Kentucky" since the NCAA is in UNC's back pocket. As it turns out, the NCAA did act appropriately. I suppose you could argue that McDonald's suspension should have been longer, but that's another discussion...

Their football team has been hit hard as well, despite the naysayers' claims that the NCAA would never punish them.

So I wouldn't be so quick to discount that the NCAA might re-open the investigation into AFAM and start a new one based on Willingham's claims. As we saw with the Penn State case, the NCAA does respond to negative publicity and public perception (not that I am in any way equating the seriousness of what happened there with what has gone on at UNC).

Henderson
01-31-2014, 11:45 AM
Their football team has been hit hard as well

Sometimes players on the football team hit (http://www.football.com/en-us/unc-lb-hughes-suspended/) back.

At this point, I'm not sure UNC-CH gets away with the whole academic fraud issue even if the NCAA doesn't take any action. The drip drip drip you hear is the reputation of the institution dribbling out bit by bit, and with Willingham working on a book, the plumbers in the UNC-CH administration will be working on the leaky pipes for some time to come, NCAA or not. Though it certainly would be nice if the NCAA reopened this case and acknowledged it for what it is: an athletics problem first and foremost.

cato
01-31-2014, 11:48 AM
As this saga has unfolded, I could not understand the silence from the faculty. Now that Ms. Levine has spoken, I am grateful for the silence. Ms. Levine's entrance into the conversation is much more powerful, coming without the background of a bunch of professors having made rash claims before the picture was at all clear (I can't image where that could happen).

duke80
01-31-2014, 02:02 PM
As this saga has unfolded, I could not understand the silence from the faculty. Now that Ms. Levine has spoken, I am grateful for the silence. Ms. Levine's entrance into the conversation is much more powerful, coming without the background of a bunch of professors having made rash claims before the picture was at all clear (I can't image where that could happen).

If I was UNC I would call Ms. Levine in as a consultant to oversee the process and report.
Because of this article, she would be seen as impartial and interested in the truth and fairness.
This would go a long way and UNC would ensure that someone involved had the best interest
of UNC at heart.

Good step, yes? Not going to happen. Status quo will prevail and they will do the minimum
they have to do to maintain it. They don't get that being proactive would lead to a much better
outcome on every level.

Too bad for them.

FerryFor50
01-31-2014, 02:08 PM
Sometimes players on the football team hit (http://www.football.com/en-us/unc-lb-hughes-suspended/) back.


LOL

So this guy was getting a parking ticket and flipped out?

This reinforces two stereotypes:

UNC Parking enforcement is insane
UNC athletes are very unlucky in the parking ticket realm

oldnavy
01-31-2014, 02:12 PM
LOL

So this guy was getting a parking ticket and flipped out?

This reinforces two stereotypes:

UNC Parking enforcement is insane
UNC athletes are very unlucky in the parking ticket realm

Three:

He wasn't smart enough to drive a rental

alteran
01-31-2014, 02:25 PM
LOL

So this guy was getting a parking ticket and flipped out?

This reinforces two stereotypes:

UNC Parking enforcement is insane
UNC athletes are very unlucky in the parking ticket realm

No, the UNC athletes are not unlucky, UNC parking enforcement is just that aggressive. They ticket constantly. When they're bored, they sometimes even wait for an actual violation.

ArnieMc
01-31-2014, 04:23 PM
So the AAS or AFAM department was created in 1992 under Julius Nyang'oro, possibly to assist revenue athletes to stay eligible. Who was the unc AD at that time and would that have anything to do with the ACC's and NCAA's disinterest in pursuing this.

TruBlu
01-31-2014, 04:32 PM
Probably led by that person ncexynyc mentioned..."some guy back on the shipping dock".

Hey now, that guy on the shipping dock probably is an ex-UNC athlete and has a full UNC diploma.

BD80
01-31-2014, 07:28 PM
Hey now, that guy on the shipping dock probably is an ex-UNC athlete and has a full UNC diploma.

That would explain the pictographic shipping orders

Newton_14
01-31-2014, 08:26 PM
Here's the essence: blame others and remind everyone that we weren't in charge then.



Uh, doesn't "accept accountability" truly mean that there are even more chances to blame Holden Thorp, Julius Nyang'oro, Bick Baddour, and Butch Davis for these transgressions?
Agree except you left out one key name. Roy Williams. Roy is every bit as accountable as Butch and even more because of the large percentage of his team members that majored in AFAM, and took part in the no show classes within that major. (I will stress again to the DBR board members, the major itself is legit, and UNC corrupted a portion of it by setting up and maintaining the no show classes for athlete's to stay eligible. Please do not lose sight of this key fact in all this. Don't slam the AFAM major. Slam UNC for abusing that major by setting up the fake classes within the major)

My main point here though Sage, is we can't name Butch without naming Roy. Almost all of his players, including almost all on the 05 and 09 teams took that major and took the no show classes. Unfortunately for UNC, this means the corruption touched both Men's Basketball and Football, and their are reports it also touched Women's Basketball, and the Baseball team.

If the NCAA does not levy new sanctions against all 4 of those sports programs, then it may as well just dissolve as an organization and do away with having any rules at all. Just let schools have free reign to pay players through boosters, give them cars, fake classes in academics, etc, whatever they wish to do to get the best athlete's to choose their school. Otherwise the NCAA owes an apology to the many schools that do things the right way and make every effort to follow and abide by the current set of rules.

sagegrouse
01-31-2014, 10:08 PM
Agree except you left out one key name. Roy Williams. Roy is every bit as accountable as Butch and even more because of the large percentage of his team members that majored in AFAM, and took part in the no show classes within that major. (I will stress again to the DBR board members, the major itself is legit, and UNC corrupted a portion of it by setting up and maintaining the no show classes for athlete's to stay eligible. Please do not lose sight of this key fact in all this. Don't slam the AFAM major. Slam UNC for abusing that major by setting up the fake classes within the major)

My main point here though Sage, is we can't name Butch without naming Roy. Almost all of his players, including almost all on the 05 and 09 teams took that major and took the no show classes. Unfortunately for UNC, this means the corruption touched both Men's Basketball and Football, and their are reports it also touched Women's Basketball, and the Baseball team.

If the NCAA does not levy new sanctions against all 4 of those sports programs, then it may as well just dissolve as an organization and do away with having any rules at all. Just let schools have free reign to pay players through boosters, give them cars, fake classes in academics, etc, whatever they wish to do to get the best athlete's to choose their school. Otherwise the NCAA owes an apology to the many schools that do things the right way and make every effort to follow and abide by the current set of rules.

Oh, I was just naming all the people who had left. Roy hasn't yet checked out.

sage
'I do give Roy a little credit for the hiring of academic advisor Jennifer Townsend in 2009, who took one look at the no-show classes and said (basically), "Not on my watch!"'

Newton_14
01-31-2014, 10:25 PM
Oh, I was just naming all the people who had left. Roy hasn't yet checked out.

sage
'I do give Roy a little credit for the hiring of academic advisor Jennifer Townsend in 2009, who took one look at the no-show classes and said (basically), "Not on my watch!"'

Yes, but, Roy brought with him from Kansas his own personal academic advisor that supported the sham until 2009 and no one will convince me unless I am shown hard evidence, that Roy himself made that change of his own free will, with the intent to put an end to the sham.

Look, I honestly never wanted this to touch their hoops program. I really didn't. The evidence however, appears to show the hoops program was "all in" with respect to allowing it to go on up until that 09 season. Even after that, the articles suggest they were just shifted into other cupcake classes such as drama. Like others, I really want a 100% independent review by people who do not care one whit where the evidence leads, who it exposes, or which sports programs are found to have been dirty. Until then we will never know for sure just how far reaching it was over there. It all needs to be brought to full light. The academic stuff, the wheels for heels stuff, runners, illegal benefits in trips, jewelry, etc etc. In the last 4 years so many different things have come to light it is actually hard to remember all aspects without keeping a log book or something. It's crazy. I did not even mention mouthpieces, Tyler's mom and her bogus job and trips, etc etc.

BigWayne
02-01-2014, 01:04 AM
It is really starting to hit the fan....

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19794788/north-carolina-cheated-and-prospered-and-now-its-time-for-the-reckoning

http://nypost.com/2014/01/31/unc-should-work-with-whistle-blowing-professor-amid-scandal/

uh_no
02-01-2014, 01:13 AM
It is really starting to hit the fan....

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19794788/north-carolina-cheated-and-prospered-and-now-its-time-for-the-reckoning

http://nypost.com/2014/01/31/unc-should-work-with-whistle-blowing-professor-amid-scandal/

i'm strongly pulling for a 60 minutes special at some point....

duke80
02-01-2014, 02:49 AM
It is really starting to hit the fan....

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19794788/north-carolina-cheated-and-prospered-and-now-its-time-for-the-reckoning

http://nypost.com/2014/01/31/unc-should-work-with-whistle-blowing-professor-amid-scandal/

After watching coach K's interview after the Pitt game I'm glad to have graduated from a school that has such a high caliber of people representing it.
Then I contrast that with what I'm hearing out of UNC. Wow.

When I read Ms Levine's letter, I was blown away. Maybe there is hope for UNC after all with people like her around. We shall see.

In the meantime, Go Duke.

BD80
02-01-2014, 04:41 AM
It is really starting to hit the fan....

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/19794788/north-carolina-cheated-and-prospered-and-now-its-time-for-the-reckoning

http://nypost.com/2014/01/31/unc-should-work-with-whistle-blowing-professor-amid-scandal/

The CBS link is a greggggg doyel piece from Aug 2012

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
02-01-2014, 06:18 AM
The CBS link is a greggggg doyel piece from Aug 2012

Thanks. Now I can skip it.

oldnavy
02-01-2014, 07:23 AM
I don't know, a lot of people (mostly State fans) spent all summer bemoaning the fact that "nothing will ever happen" to PJ, and that "PJ be back for Kentucky" since the NCAA is in UNC's back pocket. As it turns out, the NCAA did act appropriately. I suppose you could argue that McDonald's suspension should have been longer, but that's another discussion...

Their football team has been hit hard as well, despite the naysayers' claims that the NCAA would never punish them.

So I wouldn't be so quick to discount that the NCAA might re-open the investigation into AFAM and start a new one based on Willingham's claims. As we saw with the Penn State case, the NCAA does respond to negative publicity and public perception (not that I am in any way equating the seriousness of what happened there with what has gone on at UNC).

I just don't see the NCAA going back to look at UNC over this. Mary Willingham's data is basically about academics, not illegal cash benefits to players (the one thing the NCAA does seem to care about). All opening up another investigation into bogus academics at UNC would do is cost the NCAA money, and what would they get out of it?

Besides, the NCAA already looked at this once. All the info was there when they visited UNC, if they had really been interested in getting to the truth, the NCAA had their chance then. They found enough to slap UNC FB on the wrist and ban them for one bowl season and take a couple of scholarships away in FB. Besides, if they go back now it would be an admission that they were wrong or at least not thorough the first time and the media may ask the NCAA why. The cynic in me suspects that the NCAA probably knew that this touched the BB team back when they first looked into it, but didn't want to go there....

Does it make the NCAA look weak? Sure it does, but this isn't new.

UNC is being exposed and that is probably all that we can hope for at this point. I would love the see the NCAA go in and figuratively torch the place, but I just don't see that ever happening....

I expect a steady decline in interest in this over time as the media tires of it and moves on to another headline grabbing issue that will inevitably come up at some point.

MarkD83
02-01-2014, 10:12 AM
I expect a steady decline in interest in this over time as the media tires of it and moves on to another headline grabbing issue that will inevitably come up at some point.

In an odd twist in my mind I almost hope UNC is just good enough to make the NCAA tourney. All of the journalists who don't pay attention to college basketball will catch on to this story in March if UNC is in the tourney. If UNC is in the NIT the "casual" journalists will ignore this.

Olympic Fan
02-01-2014, 12:14 PM
I just don't see the NCAA going back to look at UNC over this. Mary Willingham's data is basically about academics, not illegal cash benefits to players (the one thing the NCAA does seem to care about). All opening up another investigation into bogus academics at UNC would do is cost the NCAA money, and what would they get out of it?

Besides, the NCAA already looked at this once. All the info was there when they visited UNC, if they had really been interested in getting to the truth, the NCAA had their chance then. .

yes and no ... the Willingham stuff about the poor reading levels of many players is nothing that NCAA would look at.

BUT she also testified to steering unprepared athletes into phony classes ... and in the course of this story, Michael McAdoo has testified that he was steered into bogus classes.

THAT is the time bomb that could blow up UNC athletes. Don't be distracted -- 200-plus bogus classes and 500-plus forged or unauthorized grade changes -- and that's by UNC's own admission.

The NCAA did not see any of that when they were investigating UNC three years ago because the school worked very hard to hide it -- they're still trying to hide it (at least the scope of it). So far we still don't have answers to several key questions: like who forged the fake grade changes ... how many athletes retained their eligibility because of the fake classes ... how long as this been going on (Jim Martin only investigated back to 2007, but admitted it went on before that).

THAT is what cries out for investigation.

I agree that the NCAA does not want to open that kettle of worms. There are several reasons they'll do everything possible to avoid nailing UNC for its academic scam. But the NCAA is sensitive to national media exposure. As CNN, the New York Times, ESPN and Bloomsburg News hammer at the story, it becomes harder and harder for the NCAA to turn a blind eye.

PS HBO had a film crew on campus this week working on a story. Also, CNN's Pulitzer Prize winning reporter (for her work on the Penn State case) was in North Carolina this week, working on the story. There are more media bombs about to go off. The NCAA won't be able to ignore it forever.

Henderson
02-01-2014, 12:57 PM
yes and no ... the Willingham stuff about the poor reading levels of many players is nothing that NCAA would look at.

BUT she also testified to steering unprepared athletes into phony classes ... and in the course of this story, Michael McAdoo has testified that he was steered into bogus classes.

THAT is the time bomb that could blow up UNC athletes. Don't be distracted -- 200-plus bogus classes and 500-plus forged or unauthorized grade changes -- and that's by UNC's own admission.

The NCAA did not see any of that when they were investigating UNC three years ago because the school worked very hard to hide it -- they're still trying to hide it (at least the scope of it). So far we still don't have answers to several key questions: like who forged the fake grade changes ... how many athletes retained their eligibility because of the fake classes ... how long as this been going on (Jim Martin only investigated back to 2007, but admitted it went on before that).

THAT is what cries out for investigation.

I agree that the NCAA does not want to open that kettle of worms. There are several reasons they'll do everything possible to avoid nailing UNC for its academic scam. But the NCAA is sensitive to national media exposure. As CNN, the New York Times, ESPN and Bloomsburg News hammer at the story, it becomes harder and harder for the NCAA to turn a blind eye.

PS HBO had a film crew on campus this week working on a story. Also, CNN's Pulitzer Prize winning reporter (for her work on the Penn State case) was in North Carolina this week, working on the story. There are more media bombs about to go off. The NCAA won't be able to ignore it forever.

Excellent summary. UNC is a big place with lots of faculty, athletes, former faculty and former athletes. At some point, I have to believe that some of them are going to start blowing whistles. Willingham and Levine have opened a crack in the dike. FERPA is a big impediment when it comes to details, but it only restricts the release by the university of personally-identifiable "student records" not to personally-observed information not based on those records. And a student can waive his FERPA rights and talk all he wants to about his personal experience with grades, classes, and who told him what.

oldnavy
02-01-2014, 01:22 PM
yes and no ... the Willingham stuff about the poor reading levels of many players is nothing that NCAA would look at.

BUT she also testified to steering unprepared athletes into phony classes ... and in the course of this story, Michael McAdoo has testified that he was steered into bogus classes.

THAT is the time bomb that could blow up UNC athletes. Don't be distracted -- 200-plus bogus classes and 500-plus forged or unauthorized grade changes -- and that's by UNC's own admission.

The NCAA did not see any of that when they were investigating UNC three years ago because the school worked very hard to hide it -- they're still trying to hide it (at least the scope of it). So far we still don't have answers to several key questions: like who forged the fake grade changes ... how many athletes retained their eligibility because of the fake classes ... how long as this been going on (Jim Martin only investigated back to 2007, but admitted it went on before that).

THAT is what cries out for investigation.

I agree that the NCAA does not want to open that kettle of worms. There are several reasons they'll do everything possible to avoid nailing UNC for its academic scam. But the NCAA is sensitive to national media exposure. As CNN, the New York Times, ESPN and Bloomsburg News hammer at the story, it becomes harder and harder for the NCAA to turn a blind eye.

PS HBO had a film crew on campus this week working on a story. Also, CNN's Pulitzer Prize winning reporter (for her work on the Penn State case) was in North Carolina this week, working on the story. There are more media bombs about to go off. The NCAA won't be able to ignore it forever.

You make very good points. I guess if the heat is turned up enough, the NCAA may take a second look. It would be like the scene in Casablanca where the inspector was "shocked to find gambling..."

devildeac
02-01-2014, 02:45 PM
You make very good points. I guess if the heat is turned up enough, the NCAA may take a second look. It would be like the scene in Casablanca where the inspector was "shocked to find gambling..."

Yep, and when he issued the order to "round up the usual suspects" later in the film, I suspect the analogy here would be that Cleveland State would be subsequently investigated and lose scholarships/post-season appearances:rolleyes: .

Bob Green
02-01-2014, 03:29 PM
It would be like the scene in Casablanca where the inspector was "shocked to find gambling..."

Inspector? I believe you mean Captain, as in Captain Renault. That inspector fellow was in The Pink Panther.

Turk
02-01-2014, 04:04 PM
I agree that the NCAA does not want to open that kettle of worms. There are several reasons they'll do everything possible to avoid nailing UNC for its academic scam. But the NCAA is sensitive to national media exposure. As CNN, the New York Times, ESPN and Bloomsburg News hammer at the story, it becomes harder and harder for the NCAA to turn a blind eye.

PS HBO had a film crew on campus this week working on a story. Also, CNN's Pulitzer Prize winning reporter (for her work on the Penn State case) was in North Carolina this week, working on the story. There are more media bombs about to go off. The NCAA won't be able to ignore it forever.

Plus the N&O will keep digging, since they broke the story. And the unc guy running Bloomberg News will keep the pressure on too. Even the nitwits at the NCAA won't be able to ignore this forever. Unless someone goes public with a real smoking gun, my guess is that things will move slowly enough so that nothing will happen until after the season; perhaps the NCAA will do a bit of "taking out the trash" with some noncommittal announcement on a random summer Friday afternoon. They're going to want to keep as much of it in the offseason as possible.

P.S. And since we're mixing movie characters and metaphors, I'll also open a can of fish to go with that "kettle of worms". :D

camion
02-01-2014, 05:12 PM
I have long thought that the NCAA would not come back to UNC unless they calculate that the damage caused to the NCAA by staying away is unacceptable. They will only drown UNC to save themselves from drowning. Not there yet, but much closer than before Christmas.

Am I too cynical or not cynical enough?

Kfanarmy
02-04-2014, 04:49 PM
See how efficiently that small mea culpa moved this off the front page...

OldPhiKap
02-04-2014, 05:39 PM
See how efficiently that small mea culpa moved this off the front page...

It is the smart PR thing they should have done from the start. The slow drip has been killing them.

Having let it drip for so long, though, they've sprung more leaks. So it is harder to contain now, as opposed to two years ago.

wilson
02-04-2014, 05:46 PM
It is the smart PR thing they should have done from the start. The slow drip has been killing them.

Having let it drip for so long, though, they've sprung more leaks. So it is harder to contain now, as opposed to two years ago....and Bloomberg Businessweek keeps the drip dripping, proclaiming this morning that "The University of North Carolina academic fraud scandal has entered its Tom Wolfe phase, revealing a racial subtext of the uniquely ironic and bitter American variety," and that "The sordid affair hasn’t been “overly investigated.” To the contrary, UNC has resisted getting to the bottom of it—especially the degree of culpability of the Tar Heels Athletic Department."
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-04/unc-academic-fraud-scandal-sparks-racial-recriminations

OldPhiKap
02-04-2014, 07:24 PM
The Tar Heels of the Vanities?

A Man in Full (of Guano)?

The Electric Tar Heel Lack of Test?

I Am Charlotte Simmons? (plagiarized version)

The Wrong Stuff?

JasonEvans
02-05-2014, 11:53 AM
Not sure if this has been linked earlier, but the Gaston and Wilmington newspapers both published a scathing editorial (http://www.gastongazette.com/opinion/our-opinion/editorial-so-far-unc-gets-failing-grade-on-athletic-department-integrity-1.272557) on this in recent days.


North Carolina’s flagship university has taken a prominent hit to the bow, but so far officials seem to be worried more about damage control than getting to the bottom of an embarrassing scandal that could sink the school’s reputation permanently.

This kind of local pressure may not be the sort of thing that changes the NCAA's mind about punishing Carolina, but it does keep the UNC coverup artists from feeling too good about their plan to stall and delay until no one notices anymore.

--Jason "Paul Barrett, the guy who is beating the drum on this for Bloomberg, is going after Carolina with the tenacity of the most fervent Pack Pride posters. He simply will not let it die. God bless him!"

Reilly
02-05-2014, 12:50 PM
The Tar Heels of the Vanities?

A Man in Full (of Guano)?

The Electric Tar Heel Lack of Test?

I Am Charlotte Simmons? (plagiarized version)

The Wrong Stuff?

Radical AFRAM & Mau-Mauing the Parking Office?

Back to Blood? [History of the Heels' A-to-Z, monosyllabic spelling bee]

lotusland
02-05-2014, 11:04 PM
The Tar Heels of the Vanities?

A Man in Full (of Guano)?

The Electric Tar Heel Lack of Test?

I Am Charlotte Simmons? (plagiarized version)

The Wrong Stuff?

look homeward Huck?

CDu
02-06-2014, 10:13 AM
I don't know, a lot of people (mostly State fans) spent all summer bemoaning the fact that "nothing will ever happen" to PJ, and that "PJ be back for Kentucky" since the NCAA is in UNC's back pocket. As it turns out, the NCAA did act appropriately. I suppose you could argue that McDonald's suspension should have been longer, but that's another discussion...

Their football team has been hit hard as well, despite the naysayers' claims that the NCAA would never punish them.

So I wouldn't be so quick to discount that the NCAA might re-open the investigation into AFAM and start a new one based on Willingham's claims. As we saw with the Penn State case, the NCAA does respond to negative publicity and public perception (not that I am in any way equating the seriousness of what happened there with what has gone on at UNC).

I think it should be pointed out that the NCAA technically didn't actually act at all with regard to Hairston. UNC suspended Hairston and McDonald. They then petitioned the NCAA to review McDonald and clear him for play. They decided not to petition the NCAA for Hairston's reinstatement (perhaps for fear that the evidence would look pretty bad for them?).

alteran
02-06-2014, 10:35 AM
I think it should be pointed out that the NCAA technically didn't actually act at all with regard to Hairston. UNC suspended Hairston and McDonald. They then petitioned the NCAA to review McDonald and clear him for play. They decided not to petition the NCAA for Hairston's reinstatement (perhaps for fear that the evidence would look pretty bad for them?).

I think we're talking semantics here, but my understanding is that the NCAA DID act.

The whole "we suspend our players while the NCAA investigates" quasi appeal is just kabuki theater which results in the NCAA doing something-- but off the record. It investigates and tells the school what the punishment will be SHOULD they officially/publicly appeal. UNC was told Hairston would be declared out for the season (and MacDonald would be out for a half).

I think that qualifies as action.

To save the university embarrassment (boy has that ship sailed), UNC can technically say, "we felt Hairston's actions were worthy of a season-long suspension," when, in fact, Roy thought running laps would cover it, the NCAA told him that wouldn't fly, and in fact dictated the terms of the suspension.

Yes, officially, the NCAA didn't do anything, but in reality, they handled the situation, and I honestly think the punishment was about right.

killerleft
02-06-2014, 11:08 AM
The Tar Heels of the Vanities?

A Man in Full (of Guano)?

The Electric Tar Heel Lack of Test?

I Am Charlotte Simmons? (plagiarized version)

The Wrong Stuff?

Of Crime and the River

Don't Look Homeward, Angel, the Carolina Way is Dead...

wait, wrong Tom Wolfe! Never mind.

BigWayne
02-06-2014, 04:23 PM
Latest sideshow is that the infamous Fats apparently let his name expire, got hacked or something. Somebody from PP looks to have converted an existing twitter account to the @fats315 name and is posting all sorts of stuff claiming he did all the things PP thinks he did. Now fats is back on another twitter account and not too happy about it.



FATS ‏@THEREALFATSMAN 45m

@Fats315 really stop pretended to be me wtf u have nothing better to do
Reply
Retweet
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fats315 ‏@Fats315 44m

@THEREALFATSMAN Shut up fool
Hide conversation
Reply
Retweet
Favorite

brevity
02-06-2014, 04:35 PM
@THEREALFATSMAN Shut up fool

Mr. T works for Pack Pride?

BigWayne
02-06-2014, 08:11 PM
More entertainment:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/06/3597326/jim-chavasse-perchance-to-read.html

Money quote:
"However, as Coach Williams said, they would make good babysitters for your grandchildren. Not a bad idea. This would give the grandchildren a great opportunity to read a little Shakespeare to the players."

Looks like a feisty old codger... http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/tennis/2013/07/15/90-somethings-play-tennis-asheville-open/2519395/

wsb3
02-07-2014, 11:22 AM
I think we're talking semantics here, but my understanding is that the NCAA DID act.

The whole "we suspend our players while the NCAA investigates" quasi appeal is just kabuki theater which results in the NCAA doing something-- but off the record. It investigates and tells the school what the punishment will be SHOULD they officially/publicly appeal. UNC was told Hairston would be declared out for the season (and MacDonald would be out for a half).

I think that qualifies as action.

To save the university embarrassment (boy has that ship sailed), UNC can technically say, "we felt Hairston's actions were worthy of a season-long suspension," when, in fact, Roy thought running laps would cover it, the NCAA told him that wouldn't fly, and in fact dictated the terms of the suspension.

Yes, officially, the NCAA didn't do anything, but in reality, they handled the situation, and I honestly think the punishment was about right.

I agree with your post. UNC took action because they knew he was not going to be allowed to play if they asked for PJ to be reinstated.

Duvall
02-07-2014, 06:36 PM
Folks, let us not lose sight of the real victim in all of this. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/07/3600444/jacobs-roy-williams-says-its-been.html)


“I’ve felt more vulnerable than I’ve ever felt,” Williams conceded the other day. “Coach Smith told me one time his biggest worry about me as a head coach was that the losses hurt me so much as an assistant, and he said it gets a lot worse. And he was right. As usual. This time it’s just been, I’ve felt like a punching bag at some times, the things that I’ve had to put up with. And on top of that, some losses. Some poor play. Some bad judgment. Some simple things like free throws that don’t go in, and those kind of things.”

...

Perhaps a victim of his own optimism, Williams held firm to belief in the return of Hairston, “the best player” through more than 40 practices during the fall of 2013.

“I really thought we were going to get him back. I honest to gosh thought it was going to be five games. Then it drug out and I knew it was more than five games because it went past five games. And then, when we started getting a little more information from the NCAA, it started really hitting me that it wasn’t going to be, and that was hard,” Williams said, voice quavering.

“I hated it for our program and our school because we’ve had some tough times around here, and I didn’t want another circumstance that made it any more,” he said. “It was just the most – you don’t want to say devastating because devastating really has some higher connotations, you’re talking about some more serious things than basketball – but basketball is pretty serious to us. It really is.”

Roy gonna Roy, I guess.

FerryFor50
02-07-2014, 08:51 PM
Folks, let us not lose sight of the real victim in all of this. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/07/3600444/jacobs-roy-williams-says-its-been.html)



Roy gonna Roy, I guess.

Sounds like Roy really has gotten better perspective on things. I mean, at least it wasn't Haiti, right? (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Roy-Williams-UNC-s-woes-feel-like-Haiti-catast?urn=ncaab,218876)

Newton_14
02-07-2014, 09:30 PM
Folks, let us not lose sight of the real victim in all of this. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/07/3600444/jacobs-roy-williams-says-its-been.html)



Roy gonna Roy, I guess.

Every time the man opens his mouth we all get a little dumber. Incredulous. At least he publically tells us in this latest pity party that he had no intentions at all of punishing PJ for his off season transgressions. The extent of the Ol Roy punishment was run a lot of sprints, and "no choosing the restaurant we at it for you PJ".

jv001
02-08-2014, 12:00 AM
Folks, let us not lose sight of the real victim in all of this. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/07/3600444/jacobs-roy-williams-says-its-been.html)



Roy gonna Roy, I guess.

Poor roy. Not his fault and the way the tarheels have been treated. Oh wait, the NCAA didn't suspend pj. The heels did. What cry babies. GoDuke!

oldnavy
02-08-2014, 07:07 AM
Every time the man opens his mouth we all get a little dumber. Incredulous. At least he publically tells us in this latest pity party that he had no intentions at all of punishing PJ for his off season transgressions. The extent of the Ol Roy punishment was run a lot of sprints, and "no choosing the restaurant we at it for you PJ".

A "rare" 57 minute interview"? I bet you could get Roy to blather on for hours ANY TIME if you asked him about how tough things are and have been in his sad, hard, struggle of a life....

I'd be surprised if Barry Jacobs didn't get up and walk out with Roy still yammering on about his struggles.... "sorry Roy, I've got to get home for dinner..., But I think I have it... 'life rough, Roy sad'".

Unbelievable! I didn't know if I should laugh (at the silliness of this) or cry (at the seriousness of this).

This is the kind of self pitying tripe you "may" want to write in your biography when you are done coaching... MAYBE... but to sit down for an hour with a reporter DURING a season and do a "woe is me"... pity party is... well I don't really know what it is...

What amazes me is, there are people that really look up to this guy....

Your are absolutely correct Newton_14, we are dumber every time Roy speaks....

This is just PATHETIC... no wonder UNC wants him to go through the PR consultants...

As far as hurting recruiting... if I were a coach recruiting against Roy, the FIRST thing I'd send the recruit would be this article, with a note... "you really want to play for this guy"?

FerryFor50
02-08-2014, 10:51 AM
I heard a joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Says life is harsh and cruel. Says he feels all alone in a threatening world. Doctor says, "Treatment is simple. The great clown Roy is in town tonight. Go see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. Says, "But doctor... I am Roy." Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains.

OldPhiKap
02-08-2014, 12:31 PM
A "rare" 57 minute interview"? "woe is me"

For those who constantly refer to themselves in the third person, technically it is a "woe is him" pity party.

Reilly
02-08-2014, 01:13 PM
"the things that I’ve had to put up with ... simple things like free throws that don’t go in, and those kind of things.”

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/07/3600444/jacobs-roy-williams-says-its-been.html#storylink=cpy

I fear for the man. What if some more free throws don't go in? Instead of shooting State fans in the butt, I'm afraid he may bury his bb gun up his own [radio edit] and blast away, seeking to end the pain once and for all ... He seems to be in a maze of despair that not even Blue Steel could navigate its way out of.

slower
02-08-2014, 01:21 PM
The Tar Heels of the Vanities?

A Man in Full (of Guano)?

The Electric Tar Heel Lack of Test?

I Am Charlotte Simmons? (plagiarized version)

The Wrong Stuff?

Silence of The Rams

JTH
02-11-2014, 11:16 AM
Can't say that this is any surprise.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/m/article/2014/02/mary-willingham-considers-suing-unc-provost-over-ndings

moonpie23
02-11-2014, 12:07 PM
can we just get on to the dad gum discovery??????

OldPhiKap
02-11-2014, 01:21 PM
can we just get on to the dad gum discovery??????

Roy is not in the getting deposed spirit.

Reilly
02-11-2014, 01:37 PM
This is getting expensive ... designer eyewear, criminal defense attorneys for renters, masseuses for tight muscles and therapy, security/entourage to deal with rowdy Presbyterian fans, BB gun dealers ... and now a jury consultant to determine whether slipping into ungrammatical corn pone will work in a case about illiteracy and academic fraud ...

killerleft
02-11-2014, 01:39 PM
So what did Mary Willingham think of the 4-person team that supposedly spent 200 hours going over her data?

From the dailytarheel.com article linked above:

"I think a really interesting question for them is what did they do during those 200 hours? What did they do, because they still don’t have access to the raw scores that point to the grade levels,” she said.

Sounds like an important detail.

alteran
02-11-2014, 02:23 PM
From the article:

"To me (Dean’s) the one that said I was lying and he’s the one that said it was a travesty to the University,” Willingham said. “It’s got to be against that. I mean he’s the one who pulled the IRB status and asked me for the identifiable data, so I mean it’s got to be against him. It can’t really be against anybody else."

To me, this is the core of a very rotten apple and shows the bad faith UNC has exhibited throughout this entire series of scandals. What Willingham is saying, in not so many words, is that the Provost (Dean) requested/demanded that she give him non-anonymized data so he could look into the allegations, but it was really just a bad-faith setup to get the IRB to quash her study and sanction the whistle-blower.

Willingham mentioned this at the time, but it appears she's ready and willing to take this to court. And she's alleging that the only person to ever see this data was Dean.

Stay classy, UNC.

weezie
02-11-2014, 03:23 PM
a jury consultant to determine whether slipping into ungrammatical corn pone

Lordy, I read this as "corn porn" and felt a tad ill. At least they haven't sunk to that low yet....

DukieInKansas
02-11-2014, 04:05 PM
Lordy, I read this as "corn porn" and felt a tad ill. At least they haven't sunk to that low yet....

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that had to read it twice.

Henderson
02-11-2014, 05:36 PM
Can't say that this is any surprise.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/m/article/2014/02/mary-willingham-considers-suing-unc-provost-over-ndings

Read the lead sentence of the article. This is now just "a battle over the accuracy of Mary Willingham's research." That's the only issue here. No underlying, broad or systemic issues. It's now a simple defense for UNC: If there were any inaccuracies in Mary Willingham's research, UNC-CH is completely exonerated, and the world owes UNC-CH an apology. And THAT, my friends, is where that 200 hours went.

chaosmage
02-11-2014, 06:39 PM
Read the lead sentence of the article. This is now just "a battle over the accuracy of Mary Willingham's research." That's the only issue here. No underlying, broad or systemic issues. It's now a simple defense for UNC: If there were any inaccuracies in Mary Willingham's research, UNC-CH is completely exonerated, and the world owes UNC-CH an apology. And THAT, my friends, is where that 200 hours went.

The comments section of the Daily Tarheel article is almost as good as the IC forums. Brings a smile to my plagued face ;-)

Atlanta Duke
02-12-2014, 10:27 AM
There also was a column on Ms. Willingham's findings of academic fraud (given the known facts, saying they are only "allegations" is like saying it is alleged Chapel Hill is in North Carolina) posted on CBS Sports.com yesterday.

Because, whatever happens, the scandal isn't going away anytime soon. Neither is a certain zealous former academic advisor.

Remember her words: functionally illiterate.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/dennis-dodd/24439378/unc-whistleblower-willingham-academic-sins-inexcusable-not-isolated-

On air personalities at CBS and TBS presumably will want no part of this scandal this coming March, but my bet is that such entities as Business Week and the NYT are going to run stories during the tournament on UNC in general and Ms. Willingham in particular under the theme of "what price glory."

Reilly
02-12-2014, 12:35 PM
Lordy, I read this as "corn porn" and felt a tad ill. At least they haven't sunk to that low yet....

I gather you missed the Hanstravel naked ping-pong stories from a few years ago, "Texas-style" I believe it was called. The depth of their moral depravity is limitless.

hustleplays
02-13-2014, 12:15 AM
Read the lead sentence of the article. This is now just "a battle over the accuracy of Mary Willingham's research." That's the only issue here. No underlying, broad or systemic issues. It's now a simple defense for UNC: If there were any inaccuracies in Mary Willingham's research, UNC-CH is completely exonerated, and the world owes UNC-CH an apology. And THAT, my friends, is where that 200 hours went.

I can't tell whether you are being satirical. No way that UNC can frame this issue, limit this issue, as they wish, i.e., whether or not Mary Willingham's research was flawed or not. Already we have on record Mary herself, a former player, and a former interim Dean attesting to the functional illiteracy of one or more UNC "student athletes." Plus, the UNC admin itself and the Martin report affirm that many athletes were shunted to many sham classes. UNC's admin has, under great duress, admitted at least partial culpability. But they have not affirmed full, unequivocal accountability AND their commitment to discovering what happened, how and why it happened and that they will take all necessary steps to fix the problem.

UNC will not be able to contain this story, because the reality is that a significant fraud has been committed and UNC has obviously not committed to letting the truth be known, letting alone fixing the root causes. Now, the national media has become involved. They know that this is a significant, captivating story that will deservedly attract wide attention. They know that we are only in the beginning stages of "discovery." Further, one or more legal trials are forthcoming, in which witnesses will have compelling reasons to tell their story.

Several months ago, UNC hired a professional PR person. As many of us know, there are two kinds of PR types: those who try to manipulate the facts, and shape the narrative [regardless of the facts] in order to "protect" their clients. These PR types fail more often than not. The other PR types advocate coming clean, lancing the wound, letting the chips fall, and getting to root causes, so that the client can rid itself of the poison, implement correctives, install new leadership as necessary, and move on. Seems clear that UNC has chosen the first type of PR person, and UNC will regret it. UNC's constituencies, including its student athletes, deserve better.

Henderson
02-13-2014, 11:48 AM
I can't tell whether you are being satirical.

Not satirical. I was just describing the narrative that UNC-CH now seems to be pushing: It's not about widespread academic fraud or the recruiting of functionally illiterate kids; it's about the quality of Mary Willingham's research. If that becomes the narrative (and the Daily Tarheel article shows that's the official line), all they have to do is find a flaw in her research, and they win. A committee spends 200 hours looking for flaws, finds one, then the administration announces that MW's research was flawed and discredited by an independent committee. Ergo: No problem here; just a twisted attempt by an inept researcher to bring discredit to the university. Or at least that's the strategy.

Atlanta Duke
02-13-2014, 01:30 PM
Not satirical. I was just describing the narrative that UNC-CH now seems to be pushing: It's not about widespread academic fraud or the recruiting of functionally illiterate kids; it's about the quality of Mary Willingham's research. If that becomes the narrative (and the Daily Tarheel article shows that's the official line), all they have to do is find a flaw in her research, and they win. A committee spends 200 hours looking for flaws, finds one, then the administration announces that MW's research was flawed and discredited by an independent committee. Ergo: No problem here; just a twisted attempt by an inept researcher to bring discredit to the university. Or at least that's the strategy.

If that is the strategy it is being ineptly executed. Provost Dean was in his comfort zone when he was able to denounce Willingham in front of the UNC faculty, but when he tried that same tactic with the Business Week reporter he immediately backed down when the reporter called him out after Dean claimed Willingham was a liar.

If UNC intends to issue press releases and speak to in-house audiences to "get the story out" they will not get much traction with any media reps beyond the Daily Tar Heel. If Dean or any other Chapel Hill representative sits down for an interview with anyone outside the bubble who is not invested in having this unpleasantness go away (such as whomever might interview Dean if he tries to "clear the air" during a sitdown with CBS Sports during the NCAAs) that person is going to get roasted.

davekay1971
02-13-2014, 01:56 PM
I gather you missed the Hanstravel naked ping-pong stories from a few years ago, "Texas-style" I believe it was called. The depth of their moral depravity is limitless.

If I were a Texan, I'd be looking into a slander lawsuit. Class action, with an award for every Texan associated, without their consent and undoubtedly to their great emotional distress, with the mental image of Tyler Hansbrough playing ping pong in the nude. Excuse me, I now have to take this keyboard out to the trash, as I will never get the vomit out from between the keys...

PackMan97
02-21-2014, 04:28 PM
Yet ANOTHER "independent" investigation into UNC's athletic eligibility scandal (I refuse to call it an academic scandal, because it's not). I also wonder how many other schools get to pick their "independent" investigators.

I guess this is an admission that the Martin report was largely a whitewash despite the fact it found 200 fake classes and 500 unauthorized grade changes?

http://www.unc.edu/campus-updates/independent-counsel-to-conduct-inquiry-of-information-about-academic-irregularities/


Independent counsel to conduct inquiry of information about academic irregularities
University of North Carolina President Tom Ross and UNC-Chapel Hill Chancellor Carol L. Folt have retained an outside attorney to conduct an independent inquiry of academic irregularities at UNC-Chapel Hill, based on new information that may become available.

The University has remained in contact with Orange County District Attorney Jim Woodall throughout his investigation of potential criminal activity connected to course irregularities in UNC-Chapel Hill’s former Department of African and Afro-American Studies. Woodall has indicated that he will cooperate with the inquiry and that he can now share with the independent counsel as much information acquired by his office during the criminal investigation as determined to be appropriate. Woodall relied on the SBI to help determine whether criminal activity had occurred.

Ross and Folt, on behalf of the University, jointly decided to retain Kenneth L. Wainstein, a 19-year veteran of the U.S. Justice Department, as an independent counsel to conduct the inquiry. Wainstein, a partner with Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP in Washington, D.C., has served as general counsel and chief of staff to the FBI, and was twice nominated by President George W. Bush and confirmed by the U.S. Senate for leadership positions in the Justice Department. In 2004, he was appointed the U.S. Attorney in Washington, D.C., where he oversaw the investigation and prosecution of high-profile white-collar cases. In 2006, he was confirmed as the first Assistant Attorney General for National Security, and in 2008, he was named Homeland Security Advisor by President Bush.

Based on information that the district attorney is able to offer, Wainstein will take any further steps necessary to address any questions left unanswered during previous reviews commissioned by the University. While there is no set timetable for completing the inquiry, the University will cooperate fully with Wainstein and ensure he has the full access he needs to complete his work. He will produce a written report, which will be made public.

“We — the UNC Board of Governors, UNC-Chapel Hill Board of Trustees, Chancellor Folt and I — have said all along that we would re-evaluate next steps once the SBI had completed its investigation,” Ross said. “Thanks to the cooperation of District Attorney Woodall, the University may now have access to additional information needed to address any remaining questions and bring this matter to closure. Chancellor Folt and I felt strongly that this would best be handled by bringing in the outside, independent perspective of an experienced professional like Ken Wainstein.”

Said Folt, “We have directed Mr. Wainstein to ask the tough questions, follow the facts wherever they lead, and get the job done. I have quickly grown to admire the extent to which the Carolina community has encouraged me to look within the University, to identify challenges, and to take strong actions to address them. I believe these efforts will accelerate the University’s capacity to achieve the meaningful academic and athletic reform that our entire community expects.”

Wainstein said, “I look forward to working closely with the University community to develop a full understanding of the facts and to provide an independent and comprehensive assessment of those facts for the University and the public.”

MESSAGE TO THE CAROLINA COMMUNITY

Chancellor Folt today sent the following message about the inquiry to the Carolina community.

Dear Friends:

This afternoon, UNC President Tom Ross and I are announcing an important step in addressing any questions left unanswered from previous reviews of course irregularities in our former department of African and Afro-American studies (now African, African-American and Diaspora Studies). Details will be posted at unc.edu.

We are retaining an outside attorney to conduct an independent inquiry based on information newly made available to us. The independent counselor will have the freedom to ask the tough questions, follow the facts wherever they lead, and get the job done.

I understand that this has been a troubling and difficult chapter in Carolina’s history, and I admire the extent to which the Carolina community has encouraged me from the start to look inward, to identify challenges and to take strong actions to address them. Thanks to all of you who have worked tirelessly toward understanding and resolution.

Sincerely,

Carol L. Folt

Chancellor

Published February 21, 2014.

Atlanta Duke
02-21-2014, 04:46 PM
Now UNC-Chapel Hill has to worry about an attack on another front:)

In January the N&O reported

Mary Willingham, the UNC learning specialist who blew the whistle on the lecture-style classes that never met, was named as a witness for the attorneys representing current and former college athletes in a class-action suit against the NCAA. The lawsuit is commonly known as the O’Bannon case, after former UCLA basketball star Ed O’Bannon. He sued after seeing his likeness being used in EA sports video games without being paid....

Michael Hausfeld, one of the attorneys representing the athletes, said Willingham’s experiences as a former learning specialist for the athletes’ support program, plus her research into the academic abilities of those athletes, make her a strong witness.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/15/3535977/former-unc-player-ties-counselors.html#storylink=cpy

The NCAA had moved to kill the O'Bannon case on a motion for summary judgment - nice try

Judge allows Ed O'Bannon v. NCAA to proceed to trial

Four-and-a-half years after the case was filed, a federal judge Thursday green-lighted Ed O'Bannon's class-action antitrust lawsuit against the NCAA to proceed to trial beginning June 9.

Barring a settlement before then, the plaintiffs will ask a jury to strike down the NCAA's age-old restrictions preventing athletes from cashing in on their name, likeness and image.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140220/ed-obannon-lawsuit-proceeds-to-trial/#ixzz2tzmbuDTh

BD80
02-21-2014, 04:55 PM
Yet ANOTHER "independent" investigation into UNC's athletic eligibility scandal (I refuse to call it an academic scandal, because it's not). I also wonder how many other schools get to pick their "independent" investigators.

I guess this is an admission that the Martin report was largely a whitewash despite the fact it found 200 fake classes and 500 unauthorized grade changes?

http://www.unc.edu/campus-updates/independent-counsel-to-conduct-inquiry-of-information-about-academic-irregularities/

Key phrase, repeated twice: "address any questions left unanswered during previous reviews"

Query: Did unc cheat to keep basketball players eligible, particularly players who played during championship seasons?

Anticipated reply from Folt: "Um, well. We kind of already addressed that during previous reviews - we can't identify particular players due to privacy laws. The important thing is to make sure such things never happen again."

oldnavy
02-22-2014, 07:52 AM
If UNC selects and also pays for the investigator (which I assume they must be paying someone to do this), how on earth can they be called "independent"?

No, an independent investigator is selected by and compensated by a third party that has nothing to gain or lose by the findings...

Why is this so hard for UNC to figure out? (rhetorical question)

sagegrouse
02-22-2014, 08:08 AM
If UNC selects and also pays for the investigator (which I assume they must be paying someone to do this), how on earth can they be called "independent"?

No, an independent investigator is selected by and compensated by a third party that has nothing to gain or lose by the findings...

Why is this so hard for UNC to figure out? (rhetorical question)

UNC is paying for a recognized attorney with loads of credentials to investigate new developments and unanswered questions. Three thoughts:

a. It would be naive to think that Wainstein and his law firm will throw UNC Athletics, his client, "under the bus" with embarrassing public revelations.

b. Any "smoking guns" will be vetted internally and the remedial actions mentioned in a toothless public document.

c. It will cost an arm and a leg.

Now there is an exception to these observations. The Louis Freeh Report at Penn State did throw the University under the bus, but it was done at the behest of the Penn State Trustees.

Atlanta Duke
02-22-2014, 10:17 AM
If UNC selects and also pays for the investigator (which I assume they must be paying someone to do this), how on earth can they be called "independent"?

No, an independent investigator is selected by and compensated by a third party that has nothing to gain or lose by the findings...

Why is this so hard for UNC to figure out? (rhetorical question)

It is an internal investigation - boards pay big time firms to conduct them all the time - there is nothing improper about that as long as the firm conducting the investigation maintains its independence

I do not think anyone contends the internal investigation conducted by former FBI Director Louis Freeh of the Jerry Sandusky crimes after he was reatined by Penn State was a whitewash

FWIW the attorney hired by UNC has a pretty impressive vitae

http://www.cadwalader.com/professionals/kenneth-wainstein

He was retained last year by the NCAA to conduct an internal investigation of the improper use of a private bankruptcy attorney by NCAA enforcement officials to obtain information in the University of Miami investigation

Report on the NCAA’s Engagement of a Source’s Counsel and Use of the Bankruptcy Process in its University of Miami Investigation
http://i.turner.ncaa.com/dr/ncaa/ncaa/release/sites/default/files/files/NCAAMiamiEnforcement%281%29.pdf

There was some question whether that report on the Miami investigation fully addressed how many NCAA officials were actively involved in improper conduct

The man who looked into the NCAA's botched investigation involving the University of Miami said Thursday he was aware multiple NCAA officials knew about the arrangement with Nevin Shapiro's attorney during the improper collection of evidence and that the information was included in the report released last month.

What was excluded: That director of enforcement Stephanie Hannah continued providing questions to Maria Elena Perez, Shapiro's attorney, after taking over for Ameen Najjar even though the NCAA's legal counsel advised against it.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9110551/author-ncaa-report-miami-hurricanes-says-amiss