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View Full Version : Congratulations to Kyrie - NBA ASG Starter



mr. synellinden
01-23-2014, 07:44 PM
Kyrie was voted to start in the NBA All-Star game:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10341370/kevin-love-stephen-curry-earn-first-all-star-starting-spots

West:

Curry
Kobe
Love
Durant
Griffin

East:

George
LeBron
Wade
Kyrie
Carmelo

Interesting, there are no true centers voted as starters. I suspect Chris Paul will replace Kobe in the west's starting lineup.

brevity
01-23-2014, 08:25 PM
West:

Curry
Kobe
Love
Durant
Griffin

East:

George
LeBron
Wade
Kyrie
Carmelo

Democracy doesn't work.

kAzE
01-24-2014, 03:43 AM
Democracy doesn't work.

Works as intended, people just don't always make the right collective decision . . .

While I'm thrilled Kyrie is an all-star starter, he hasn't really had the type of year that most of us expected. If he were in the western conference, I'm not sure he would have been a starter. He's been injury free for the most part, but for some reason, is playing at a lower level than last year when he was healthy. While still an outstanding guard, and easily one of the most dynamic players in the league, his true shooting and rebounding percentages have dipped each season since his rookie campaign, and he hasn't improved significantly as a distributor, defender, or leader. His PER so far this season is 1.5 points lower than last season.

He's my favorite player in the league, so I'm extremely happy to see him make the starting roster in the All-Star game, but I'm hoping he turns it on in the second half of the season. Hopefully the acquisition of Deng (which I'm not sure was the best move for the future of the franchise, but it's irrelevant now) helps with the team chemistry issues. I think he could be a really nice role model for Kyrie because he's such a pro.

flyingdutchdevil
01-24-2014, 09:16 AM
Works as intended, people just don't always make the right collective decision . . .

While I'm thrilled Kyrie is an all-star starter, he hasn't really had the type of year that most of us expected. If he were in the western conference, I'm not sure he would have been a starter. He's been injury free for the most part, but for some reason, is playing at a lower level than last year when he was healthy. While still an outstanding guard, and easily one of the most dynamic players in the league, his true shooting and rebounding percentages have dipped each season since his rookie campaign, and he hasn't improved significantly as a distributor, defender, or leader. His PER so far this season is 1.5 points lower than last season.

He's my favorite player in the league, so I'm extremely happy to see him make the starting roster in the All-Star game, but I'm hoping he turns it on in the second half of the season. Hopefully the acquisition of Deng (which I'm not sure was the best move for the future of the franchise, but it's irrelevant now) helps with the team chemistry issues. I think he could be a really nice role model for Kyrie because he's such a pro.

I have to agree. Kyrie, if anything, has slightly digressed. He is still one of the most exciting players on the court, but that excitement hasn't translated to effectiveness. He is still a great scorer, but only an okay distributor, a mediocre leader, and an atrocious defender.

Given the marketing around Kyrie (Uncle Drew, NBA Live) and given his exciting play, it's no surprise that he was voted in by the 'fans'. But I've been reading a lot that if the All-Star game was to be selected solely by the media or coaches, Kyrie wouldn't even be on the East roster.

blazindw
01-24-2014, 09:22 AM
Works as intended, people just don't always make the right collective decision . . .

While I'm thrilled Kyrie is an all-star starter, he hasn't really had the type of year that most of us expected. If he were in the western conference, I'm not sure he would have been a starter. He's been injury free for the most part, but for some reason, is playing at a lower level than last year when he was healthy. While still an outstanding guard, and easily one of the most dynamic players in the league, his true shooting and rebounding percentages have dipped each season since his rookie campaign, and he hasn't improved significantly as a distributor, defender, or leader. His PER so far this season is 1.5 points lower than last season.

He's my favorite player in the league, so I'm extremely happy to see him make the starting roster in the All-Star game, but I'm hoping he turns it on in the second half of the season. Hopefully the acquisition of Deng (which I'm not sure was the best move for the future of the franchise, but it's irrelevant now) helps with the team chemistry issues. I think he could be a really nice role model for Kyrie because he's such a pro.

I mean, there's no way he'd supplant Kobe or Steph in number of votes to become starter no matter how good he is (Kobe has played all of 6 games and still got voted in). But, he's one of the best players in the league and deserves to be on the team. I don't like the "he didn't deserve to start" argument because it's all based on fan votes, and when you vote someone to start who only played 6 games just a few years after Yao led all players in votes even though he hadn't played a second that year due to injury, you learn very quickly that the starters are for the fans (though almost all of them deserve to be on the team) and the rest of the team is for merit.

UrinalCake
01-24-2014, 09:34 AM
I have to confess that I haven't watched him much this year, but from what I've read it seems a lot of his regression is due to the personnel around him. It's an oddly constructed team, with like eight power forwards, and apparently he and Dion Waiters have clashed both on the court and off. The last two drafts since Irving have been disasters.

He kind of reminds me of Chris Paul, being a great player on a terrible team and having to shoot a ton because nobody else can score. Hopefully he can hook onto a better team and then we'll see his overall game develop.

flyingdutchdevil
01-24-2014, 09:41 AM
I have to confess that I haven't watched him much this year, but from what I've read it seems a lot of his regression is due to the personnel around him. It's an oddly constructed team, with like eight power forwards, and apparently he and Dion Waiters have clashed both on the court and off. The last two drafts since Irving have been disasters.

He kind of reminds me of Chris Paul, being a great player on a terrible team and having to shoot a ton because nobody else can score. Hopefully he can hook onto a better team and then we'll see his overall game develop.

You are probably right that Kyrie's personnel around him isn't helping, but it's a two-way street. Players should be improving because Kyrie is great, just like Kyrie shouldn't be as great because he has terrible teammates. Unfortunately, Kyrie isn't making his teammates that much better.

Also, Chris Paul - during his third year - was averaging 11.6 assists (and 21.1 points!). Yes, Paul did have slightly better personnel, but I would argue that Paul made them so much better. Kyrie is the slightly better scorer at 21.7 points but his assists, at 6.1 per game, are pretty atrocious for a PG. Those are essentially Monta Ellis-level assists numbers. Not good at all.

UrinalCake
01-24-2014, 10:06 AM
Excellent point about the PG's job to make those around him better. Makes me wonder how things would have been different had he stayed another year at Duke. Would he have developed better leadership skills and better defense? Did the early success and stardom stunt his desire to continue to improve?

Obviously it was the right decision for him to go when he did, but I'll take any excuse I can to wonder "what if?" He and Austin would have made an unstoppable backcourt, maybe the best ever in college ball.

throatybeard
01-24-2014, 10:12 PM
I have to agree. Kyrie, if anything, has slightly digressed.

Is Dick Vitale coaching him?

kAzE
01-24-2014, 11:07 PM
Excellent point about the PG's job to make those around him better. Makes me wonder how things would have been different had he stayed another year at Duke. Would he have developed better leadership skills and better defense? Did the early success and stardom stunt his desire to continue to improve?

Obviously it was the right decision for him to go when he did, but I'll take any excuse I can to wonder "what if?" He and Austin would have made an unstoppable backcourt, maybe the best ever in college ball.

I'm not sure how that would have worked out perfectly for Rivers, to be quite honest. Rivers isn't a great off-the-ball guy. Both of those guys would have needed to have the ball in their hands to be effective, and Rivers definitely would not have had the type of year he did if he had shared the back court with Kyrie. Of course, it obviously would have been a better team regardless just due to the fact that Kyrie is amazing.

Edouble
01-25-2014, 12:33 AM
You are probably right that Kyrie's personnel around him isn't helping, but it's a two-way street. Players should be improving because Kyrie is great, just like Kyrie shouldn't be as great because he has terrible teammates. Unfortunately, Kyrie isn't making his teammates that much better.

Also, Chris Paul - during his third year - was averaging 11.6 assists (and 21.1 points!). Yes, Paul did have slightly better personnel, but I would argue that Paul made them so much better. Kyrie is the slightly better scorer at 21.7 points but his assists, at 6.1 per game, are pretty atrocious for a PG. Those are essentially Monta Ellis-level assists numbers. Not good at all.

The comparison to Ellis is spot on. Kyrie's numbers are also comparable to Goran Dragic's.



I mean, there's no way he'd supplant Kobe or Steph in number of votes to become starter no matter how good he is (Kobe has played all of 6 games and still got voted in). But, he's one of the best players in the league and deserves to be on the team. I don't like the "he didn't deserve to start" argument because it's all based on fan votes, and when you vote someone to start who only played 6 games just a few years after Yao led all players in votes even though he hadn't played a second that year due to injury, you learn very quickly that the starters are for the fans (though almost all of them deserve to be on the team) and the rest of the team is for merit.

He is definitely one of the most exciting.

Most talented, I'll give you that too.

But Kyrie is not on the level of CP3, Curry, John Wall, Kyle Lowry, Mike Conley, or Damian Lillard.

For me, to be one of the best, I think you should be a top five player at your position, league-wide, forgetting for a moment the East/West divisions for the All-Star game.

Right now, he belongs in a second tier with guys like Isiah Thomas, Monta Ellis, Michael Carter-Williams, Ty Lawson, and the above mentioned guys.

Edouble
01-25-2014, 12:39 AM
I'm not sure how that would have worked out perfectly for Rivers, to be quite honest. Rivers isn't a great off-the-ball guy. Both of those guys would have needed to have the ball in their hands to be effective, and Rivers definitely would not have had the type of year he did if he had shared the back court with Kyrie. Of course, it obviously would have been a better team regardless just due to the fact that Kyrie is amazing.

Yes. Agree.

Words like "unstoppable" and "best ever" should not be used to describe an Irving-Rivers backcourt.

I would be more likely to rank an Irving-Smith backcourt as one of potential legend, and even then it would be far from best ever.

Did anyone around here ever see the backcourt of Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver?

blazindw
01-25-2014, 01:26 AM
He is definitely one of the most exciting.

Most talented, I'll give you that too.

But Kyrie is not on the level of CP3, Curry, John Wall, Kyle Lowry, Mike Conley, or Damian Lillard.

For me, to be one of the best, I think you should be a top five player at your position, league-wide, forgetting for a moment the East/West divisions for the All-Star game.

Right now, he belongs in a second tier with guys like Isiah Thomas, Monta Ellis, Michael Carter-Williams, Ty Lawson, and the above mentioned guys.

I would disagree with him not being on the level of Lowry or Conley and I'd argue Wall as well. I think he's a better player than all those.

To get a sense of the best point guards in the NBA, check out the point guards on the recently released roster pool for USA Basketball:


Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors; Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers; Damian Lillard, Portland Trail Blazers; Chris Paul, Los Angeles Clippers; Derrick Rose, Chicago Bulls; Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City Thunder; Deron Williams, Brooklyn Nets.

Source (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2014/01/23/usa-basketball-announces-2014-16-roster-team-usa-nba/4793925/)

I can give you that Kyrie is at the bottom of that group, but he's still one of the best players in the NBA, IMHO. And breaking that list down by conference, he's in a group of 3 with Rose and Williams...great company and I think he rightfully belongs in that group.

throatybeard
01-25-2014, 01:32 AM
Did anyone around here ever see the backcourt of Kenny Anderson and Brian Oliver?

I did. I bet everyone born before 1978 did.

But me, I mean, Keith Gatlin and Adrian Branch, dang. Oh, that's right. They're leaving the conference. No turtles. Wait, how about Ranzino Smith and...

Bruce Dalrymple was always my favorite of that era at GT. Ain't saying he was the best.

Yvon Joseph was the best "rim protector" of all time. At least of those from Haiti. At Georgia Tech. I mean, Brook Steppe? No "rim protector," he.

OK, I'll stop with the snide.

Edouble is right about an Irving-Rivers backcourt. I think both of them would be trying to eat the ball with a fork.

-bdbd
01-25-2014, 01:32 AM
Is Dick Vitale coaching him?

If so, he's probably gone deaf by now!!!

Des Esseintes
01-25-2014, 03:30 AM
He is definitely one of the most exciting.

Most talented, I'll give you that too.

But Kyrie is not on the level of CP3, Curry, John Wall, Kyle Lowry, Mike Conley, or Damian Lillard.

For me, to be one of the best, I think you should be a top five player at your position, league-wide, forgetting for a moment the East/West divisions for the All-Star game.

Right now, he belongs in a second tier with guys like Isiah Thomas, Monta Ellis, Michael Carter-Williams, Ty Lawson, and the above mentioned guys.


I would disagree with him not being on the level of Lowry or Conley and I'd argue Wall as well. I think he's a better player than all those.

To get a sense of the best point guards in the NBA, check out the point guards on the recently released roster pool for USA Basketball:

Source (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2014/01/23/usa-basketball-announces-2014-16-roster-team-usa-nba/4793925/)

I can give you that Kyrie is at the bottom of that group, but he's still one of the best players in the NBA, IMHO. And breaking that list down by conference, he's in a group of 3 with Rose and Williams...great company and I think he rightfully belongs in that group.

I think the primary reason for daylight between your positions is that we don't quite know yet how much to blame Mike Brown. Coming into this season, Kyrie was ahead of Lillard, Wall, Conley, and Lowry. He had preternatural shooting from deep with an effortless ability to get to the cup. His defensive issues, while real, were something that people thought might come around with further seasoning. Now we're halfway through the 2014 season, and Lillard has shot ahead of Kyrie. Wall, Conley, and Lowry are all debatable, but the point is that before the season they WEREN'T debatable. He was way better than all of them. So: how much of this is Kyrie failing to develop, and how much of this is the listless, unimaginative offense Mike Brown is making the Cavs play? I don't have the expertise to answer the question, but it's inarguable that Kyrie is taking more long twos and playing a generally much less efficient brand of offense these days. He also is not improving much as a defender, if people who pay closer attention than I do are to be believed. Very likely, Kyrie will not *play* like one of the best players in the NBA while Brown mans the sidelines.

sagegrouse
01-25-2014, 08:53 AM
I would disagree with him not being on the level of Lowry or Conley and I'd argue Wall as well. I think he's a better player than all those.

To get a sense of the best point guards in the NBA, check out the point guards on the recently released roster pool for USA Basketball:


Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors; Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers; Damian Lillard, Portland Trail Blazers; Chris Paul, Los Angeles Clippers; Derrick Rose, Chicago Bulls; Russell Westbrook, Oklahoma City Thunder; Deron Williams, Brooklyn Nets.
Source (http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2014/01/23/usa-basketball-announces-2014-16-roster-team-usa-nba/4793925/)

I can give you that Kyrie is at the bottom of that group, but he's still one of the best players in the NBA, IMHO. And breaking that list down by conference, he's in a group of 3 with Rose and Williams...great company and I think he rightfully belongs in that group.

I agree with you, Blazindw. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! This thread is raising self-flagellation to a high art. Kyrie is a wonderful player. who is a pure magician with the ball. Assist numbers? Doesn't that require teammates to actually make shots?

SupaDave
01-25-2014, 12:59 PM
So Duke coaches have TWO players in the starting line-ups of the All-Star and UNC has 0. I'll take it.

Supa "Takes feather - puts it in hat" Dave

jv001
01-25-2014, 07:26 PM
So Duke coaches have TWO players in the starting line-ups of the All-Star and UNC has 0. I'll take it.

Supa "Takes feather - puts it in hat" Dave

You mean the black pigeon is not on the team,lol. GoDuke!

_Gary
01-26-2014, 08:24 PM
I think the primary reason for daylight between your positions is that we don't quite know yet how much to blame Mike Brown. Coming into this season, Kyrie was ahead of Lillard, Wall, Conley, and Lowry. He had preternatural shooting from deep with an effortless ability to get to the cup. His defensive issues, while real, were something that people thought might come around with further seasoning. Now we're halfway through the 2014 season, and Lillard has shot ahead of Kyrie. Wall, Conley, and Lowry are all debatable, but the point is that before the season they WEREN'T debatable. He was way better than all of them. So: how much of this is Kyrie failing to develop, and how much of this is the listless, unimaginative offense Mike Brown is making the Cavs play? I don't have the expertise to answer the question, but it's inarguable that Kyrie is taking more long twos and playing a generally much less efficient brand of offense these days. He also is not improving much as a defender, if people who pay closer attention than I do are to be believed. Very likely, Kyrie will not *play* like one of the best players in the NBA while Brown mans the sidelines.

B-I-N-G-O. Any perceived downgrade in Kyrie should be linked, first and foremost, to Mike Brown. I hope he and Kyrie do NOT have a long relationship, because I think his style doesn't mesh in any way, shape or form with Irving's strengths. One or the other needs to go from Cleveland, and the quicker the better.

SupaDave
01-27-2014, 09:37 AM
B-I-N-G-O. Any perceived downgrade in Kyrie should be linked, first and foremost, to Mike Brown. I hope he and Kyrie do NOT have a long relationship, because I think his style doesn't mesh in any way, shape or form with Irving's strengths. One or the other needs to go from Cleveland, and the quicker the better.

Mike Brown has been sent packing by how many star players at this point?

flyingdutchdevil
01-27-2014, 09:57 AM
B-I-N-G-O. Any perceived downgrade in Kyrie should be linked, first and foremost, to Mike Brown. I hope he and Kyrie do NOT have a long relationship, because I think his style doesn't mesh in any way, shape or form with Irving's strengths. One or the other needs to go from Cleveland, and the quicker the better.

Mike Brown is a defensive genius. Kyrie is on offensive genius. This relationship was going to fail from day 1.

Des Esseintes
01-27-2014, 12:07 PM
Mike Brown is a defensive genius. Kyrie is on offensive genius. This relationship was going to fail from day 1.

That's a bit simplistic. D. Rose is a far better offensive player than defensive, and when healthy has been tremendously successful alongside defensive genius Tom Thibodeau. Same with Curry at Golden State, where Mark Jackson and (before he left) Mike Malone hung their hats on D. Curry will never be even an average defender, but he gets along fine with the staff.

I'd also say that calling Brown a defensive genius impoverishes the term somewhat. He's not Thibodeau, or even Ron Turner, now with the Celtics. He's a capable defensive coach whose unsophisticated offensive schemes fail in the modern NBA. He's not once gotten more from his team than its underlying talent profile would suggest.

flyingdutchdevil
01-27-2014, 12:26 PM
That's a bit simplistic. D. Rose is a far better offensive player than defensive, and when healthy has been tremendously successful alongside defensive genius Tom Thibodeau. Same with Curry at Golden State, where Mark Jackson and (before he left) Mike Malone hung their hats on D. Curry will never be even an average defender, but he gets along fine with the staff.

I'd also say that calling Brown a defensive genius impoverishes the term somewhat. He's not Thibodeau, or even Ron Turner, now with the Celtics. He's a capable defensive coach whose unsophisticated offensive schemes fail in the modern NBA. He's not once gotten more from his team than its underlying talent profile would suggest.

I may be simplistic, but it's the truth. Mike Brown is really good at D. That's the whole philosophy behind hiring him. The Cavs were a bottom 5 defensive team last year. They had offensive weapons in Irving, Waiters, Thompson, and Jack coming into the season. But they couldn't defend their own shadow. Unfortunately, Irving is incapable of playing defense, and the others players are mediocre at best. As a result, they are playing uninspiring basketball that is neither good at offense nor defense. It's a mess.

You are absolutely right that Mike Brown is old school. Had this been a Thibodeau team, the players would have bought into defense much moreso. But, unlike Thibodeau teams, this Cavs team doesn't have a defensive wing specialist. All they have is Varejao, who isn't the same player anymore.

Lastly, D Rose's O is better than his D, but his D isn't a liability like Irving's or Curry's. When healthy, I'd take Rose over either of those players in a heartbeat. The problem is that Rose hasn't been healthy in a long, long time.

Des Esseintes
01-27-2014, 01:45 PM
I may be simplistic, but it's the truth. Mike Brown is really good at D. That's the whole philosophy behind hiring him. The Cavs were a bottom 5 defensive team last year. They had offensive weapons in Irving, Waiters, Thompson, and Jack coming into the season. But they couldn't defend their own shadow. Unfortunately, Irving is incapable of playing defense, and the others players are mediocre at best. As a result, they are playing uninspiring basketball that is neither good at offense nor defense. It's a mess.

You are absolutely right that Mike Brown is old school. Had this been a Thibodeau team, the players would have bought into defense much moreso. But, unlike Thibodeau teams, this Cavs team doesn't have a defensive wing specialist. All they have is Varejao, who isn't the same player anymore.

Lastly, D Rose's O is better than his D, but his D isn't a liability like Irving's or Curry's. When healthy, I'd take Rose over either of those players in a heartbeat. The problem is that Rose hasn't been healthy in a long, long time.

Here's the thing: what does it mean that Mike Brown is "really good" at D? Does it make him a top-15 NBA coach? I would say definitely not. Is he top-20? I mean, maybe, and that's because there are a bunch of dudes who have almost no head coaching track records this season. When we start to include guys like George Karl, who is sitting out at the moment but is far and away a better coach than Brown, top-20 looks like a longshot, too. All of which is to say that the Cavs are failing not because of the coach is defensive and talent offensive. The Cavs are failing because:

1) Bad roster construction by a hapless front office and impatient owner.
2) Bad coaching by a retread coach.
3) Failure of on-hand talent to develop internally.

And look, D. Rose is a better defender than Kyrie, but he was a weak defender early in his career. Thibodeau put together a sterling defensive team with Rose and Boozer on the court for huge stretches of time. *That* is what a defensive genius looks like. You say that Thibodeau benefits from the perimeter stopper he "needs." But look at what has happened to the Bulls' roster! Injuries as far as the eye can see AND they just traded away their perimeter stopper--to the Cavs! Yet Chicago has played like warriors and continued to defend like mad amid all of the attrition, while Cleveland... has not. Thibodeau is just a much, much better defensive coach than Brown.

He's also a better offensive coach. Because it's not like a team has to pick. You want a guy who can help the team succeed on both sides of the ball. Last year, as you say, the Cavs sans-Varejao were awful on defense, ranked 26th. So they needed to improve there. On OFFENSE, though, they were 23rd. Nearly as awful. Brown has come in, and, with Varejao in the fold, has gotten them to 18th in defense. But they are down to 25th in offense. With so much youth on the roster, failure to get better simply as a result of natural aging curves is inexcusable. Brown is a bad head coach. I'm sure he has value as a defensive assistant, but that's not what we are talking about here. Bad coach.

OZZIE4DUKE
01-27-2014, 02:17 PM
Congrats to Kyrie, but, just think, he could have been a senior this year... :cool:

flyingdutchdevil
01-27-2014, 02:59 PM
Here's the thing: what does it mean that Mike Brown is "really good" at D? Does it make him a top-15 NBA coach? I would say definitely not. Is he top-20? I mean, maybe, and that's because there are a bunch of dudes who have almost no head coaching track records this season. When we start to include guys like George Karl, who is sitting out at the moment but is far and away a better coach than Brown, top-20 looks like a longshot, too. All of which is to say that the Cavs are failing not because of the coach is defensive and talent offensive. The Cavs are failing because:

1) Bad roster construction by a hapless front office and impatient owner.
2) Bad coaching by a retread coach.
3) Failure of on-hand talent to develop internally.

And look, D. Rose is a better defender than Kyrie, but he was a weak defender early in his career. Thibodeau put together a sterling defensive team with Rose and Boozer on the court for huge stretches of time. *That* is what a defensive genius looks like. You say that Thibodeau benefits from the perimeter stopper he "needs." But look at what has happened to the Bulls' roster! Injuries as far as the eye can see AND they just traded away their perimeter stopper--to the Cavs! Yet Chicago has played like warriors and continued to defend like mad amid all of the attrition, while Cleveland... has not. Thibodeau is just a much, much better defensive coach than Brown.

He's also a better offensive coach. Because it's not like a team has to pick. You want a guy who can help the team succeed on both sides of the ball. Last year, as you say, the Cavs sans-Varejao were awful on defense, ranked 26th. So they needed to improve there. On OFFENSE, though, they were 23rd. Nearly as awful. Brown has come in, and, with Varejao in the fold, has gotten them to 18th in defense. But they are down to 25th in offense. With so much youth on the roster, failure to get better simply as a result of natural aging curves is inexcusable. Brown is a bad head coach. I'm sure he has value as a defensive assistant, but that's not what we are talking about here. Bad coach.

I never said that Mike Brown is a good coach. I said that he is a very, very good defensive coach. He is really only known for his D. Check out these articles: http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/34111/heat-read-defense-will-make-or-break-mike-brown, http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mike-brown-cavaliers-solution-old-problem-163000258.html.

Both articles state that Mike Brown puts defense first. And second. And third. And forth. He is all about defense, and his track record on D is pretty good. In 2007, when Brown took the Cavs to the NBA Finals, he had the 4th best defensive efficiency. He's not Thibodeau, but he is one of the best defensive coaches out there.

I also think we're arguing similar things: the Cavs are terrible, Mike Brown is probably not the man for the job, and the personnel doesn't match the system. I think where we differ is I think the personnel cannot play defense at all (especially Kyrie) and all good-to-great defensive teams have defensive anchors and stoppers (the Bulls have Butler, Noah, and previously Deng and the Cavs have...well...nobody really).

I also have been very critical of Kyrie's D. I think many on this board fail to realize how had his D is. To me, it's what will prevent Kyrie from being a top 3 PG in the league.

sporthenry
01-31-2014, 12:44 AM
I never said that Mike Brown is a good coach. I said that he is a very, very good defensive coach. He is really only known for his D. Check out these articles: http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/lakers/post/_/id/34111/heat-read-defense-will-make-or-break-mike-brown, http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mike-brown-cavaliers-solution-old-problem-163000258.html.

Both articles state that Mike Brown puts defense first. And second. And third. And forth. He is all about defense, and his track record on D is pretty good. In 2007, when Brown took the Cavs to the NBA Finals, he had the 4th best defensive efficiency. He's not Thibodeau, but he is one of the best defensive coaches out there.

I also think we're arguing similar things: the Cavs are terrible, Mike Brown is probably not the man for the job, and the personnel doesn't match the system. I think where we differ is I think the personnel cannot play defense at all (especially Kyrie) and all good-to-great defensive teams have defensive anchors and stoppers (the Bulls have Butler, Noah, and previously Deng and the Cavs have...well...nobody really).

I also have been very critical of Kyrie's D. I think many on this board fail to realize how had his D is. To me, it's what will prevent Kyrie from being a top 3 PG in the league.

His D is bad. Brown hasn't helped much and the locker room is atrocious. Deng will only help so much. And the Cavs have done a terrible job of putting good players/people around him. Waiters is a cancer. Bennett is a project.

Reports coming out that Kyrie has said he wants out that he just publicly refuted. http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10380685/kyrie-irving-cleveland-cavaliers-insists-want-exit

Personally, I see no way he stays in Cleveland without a major upheaval. He has his own issues and needs to get into a stable locker room situation with some vets.

g-money
01-31-2014, 01:22 AM
Reports coming out that Kyrie has said he wants out that he just publicly refuted. http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10380685/kyrie-irving-cleveland-cavaliers-insists-want-exit

Personally, I see no way he stays in Cleveland without a major upheaval. He has his own issues and needs to get into a stable locker room situation with some vets.

I hate that this is happening to Kyrie. He's no Lebron, capable of carrying a team by himself. Like you say, he needs a stable locker room, talent around him, and a coach he can trust and believe in. He has none of the above in Cleveland (with the possible exception of Luol). I do think a coaching change is in order as a first step.

It's like the Cleveland franchise is this black hole that is killing the kid's spirit. It's tough to watch. I guess all he can do is focus on being the best he can be and try not to get too frustrated.

flyingdutchdevil
01-31-2014, 09:21 AM
His D is bad. Brown hasn't helped much and the locker room is atrocious. Deng will only help so much. And the Cavs have done a terrible job of putting good players/people around him. Waiters is a cancer. Bennett is a project.

Reports coming out that Kyrie has said he wants out that he just publicly refuted. http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10380685/kyrie-irving-cleveland-cavaliers-insists-want-exit

Personally, I see no way he stays in Cleveland without a major upheaval. He has his own issues and needs to get into a stable locker room situation with some vets.

I'm with you. Kyrie is on his way out. It'll be good for him and it'll allow the Cavs to rebuild (again). Cleveland needs to pull a Suns and just clean house. They also need a competent GM and young coach.

Kyrie needs to play with a superstar that he can trust and a 2 who is a super defender (essentially, a 3 and D type player). I would love to see him with Boston. I think that's a great fit (and, of course, I'd be able to see him live every night!).

Troublemaker
01-31-2014, 09:56 AM
Here's a related article that Windhorst wrote about Kyrie's upcoming decision to re-sign or not with Cleveland: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10381034/kyrie-irving-future-cleveland

Excerpts:


.....Irving's future will likely be determined this summer because of something team owner Dan Gilbert vowed back in 2012. Gilbert said he learned a major lesson from 2010 when he lost LeBron James, and that is to never let his franchise player get to free agency again. He said so himself.....

It seems likely the Cavs will indeed offer Irving a contract this summer that would kick start in 2015. It will probably be a maximum contract because All-Stars like Irving are so rare and valuable. If Irving takes it, the team will control him for perhaps the next six years.....

If Irving doesn't sign it, well, Gilbert said it all. No matter who they are ... you cannot wait.....

Would it be a risky maneuver for Irving, who has had injury problems in his career, to play it this way? Absolutely. Would it hurt his sterling reputation among the fans, who just voted him in as a starter in the All-Star Game? Probably. Would he truly go through with that? It depends on just how displeased he is with his current situation. And he is not looking very happy when he's playing.

The bold seems extremely important to me. With Kyrie's injury history, he almost certainly has to sign eventually. What he can do is bluff that he won't sign to try to force Cleveland to trade him, but imo, it wouldn't look like a very convincing bluff.

sporthenry
02-02-2014, 03:30 PM
As Deng recently told one close friend, “the stuff going on in practice would never be tolerated by the coaching staff or the front office back in Chicago. It’s a mess.”

Deng was brought in to help clean it up when he arrived in a deal for Andrew Bynum on Jan. 7. But since then, he’s seen players get thrown out of practice, take off their uniform tops at halftime and threaten not to play, mouth off to Brown and generally act like spoiled brats. …

There is no accountability, as Dion Waiters found out when he was kicked out of practice last week but still got his usual minutes against the Knicks.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/02/report-luol-deng-shocked-at-mess-that-is-the-cavaliers/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Not sure how Mike Brown still has a job. Guess they don't want to pay him not to coach but they need to do something.