Creighton barrels #4 Villanova, 96 - 68

[FerryFor50]

85-50 with 8min left.

Creighton led 54-41 in the first half and is on a 31-9 run in the 2nd.

Sure fire player of the year Doug McDermott only has 23...

[NashvilleDevil]

This game cannot be jinxed.

[FerryFor50]

This game cannot be jinxed.

If it is, I'd take full responsibility.

Plus, I don't care who wins either way. Was just eye opening.

[MCFinARL]

85-50 with 8min left.

Creighton led 54-41 in the first half and is on a 31-9 run in the 2nd.

Sure fire player of the year Doug McDermott only has 23...

Have only watched part of this game but it appears everything Creighton puts up goes in--looking at the box score they have made 21 of 33 3-pointers. Ridiculous!
Guess their coach must have had a good motivator after the Providence loss.

[FerryFor50]

Have only watched part of this game but it appears everything Creighton puts up goes in--looking at the box score they have made 21 of 33 3-pointers. Ridiculous!
Guess their coach must have had a good motivator after the Providence loss.

They have nearly made more threes than Nova has taken. That's gotta be pretty rare...

[Bluedog]

ESPN said their first 30 points were ALL from threes - that is crazy! One guy was 8-9 from three in the first half, I believe. And many from well beyond NBA range as that line is also on the court.

[Furniture]

If it is, I'd take full responsibility.

Plus, I don't care who wins either way. Was just eye opening.

That was a good call! Almost a first. Congrats...

[Ichabod Drain]

And after starting the season 15-0 Ohio State is about to drop its fourth straight.

[Troublemaker]

Creighton now has a 128.2 adjusted offensive efficiency in KenPom's system. (I like how his site is now updating same day as results roll in).

Probably the highest adjusted OE a team's ever had this far into the season.

[dukelifer]

And after starting the season 15-0 Ohio State is about to drop its fourth straight.

Confidence is a funny thing.

[hurleyfor3]

See, there are only two good teams this year.

[Kedsy]

See, there are only two good teams this year.

Is one of them Creighton?

[TexHawk]

Creighton now has a 128.2 adjusted offensive efficiency in KenPom's system. (I like how his site is now updating same day as results roll in).

Probably the highest adjusted OE a team's ever had this far into the season.

It's 4 points higher than the next closest team in the last 12 years, as far back as Kenpom goes (end of season numbers only). That was Wake Forest in 2005.

[TexHawk]

Is one of them Creighton?

Of all the astonishing numbers in this game, my favorite was the already mentioned "first 30 points coming on 10 threes". It's even crazier knowing that this same team got blown out over the weekend at Providence (Kenpom's #50 team), shooting 4-19 (21%) from three.

[rsvman]

Crazy.

I watched some of that Providence game, and Creighton looked pretty bad. A mediocre team, at best, I thought. They couldn't have thrown the ball into the ocean from the deck of a cruise ship that day.

[jv001]

Of all the astonishing numbers in this game, my favorite was the already mentioned "first 30 points coming on 10 threes". It's even crazier knowing that this same team got blown out over the weekend at Providence (Kenpom's #50 team), shooting 4-19 (21%) from three.

Law of averages,:cool: GoDuke!

[Bluedog]

It's even crazier knowing that this same team got blown out over the weekend at Providence (Kenpom's #50 team), shooting 4-19 (21%) from three.


Crazy.

I watched some of that Providence game, and Creighton looked pretty bad. A mediocre team, at best, I thought. They couldn't have thrown the ball into the ocean from the deck of a cruise ship that day.

It's similar to Nebraska losing by THIRTY-ONE to OSU just over two weeks ago and somehow beating them last night. I realize OSU isn't playing as well as they were, but it's not a completely different team. It goes to show you anything can happen in a single game - particularly in home conference games. Kenpom gives home court advantage about an 8-point differential from away games in the remaining Duke opponents where we have home and away with.

When a team loses by 20 in the NCAA tournament it's not conclusive that they are a much worse team than the other based on a sample size of one even though, as fans, we make sweeping conclusions and generalizations based on that single game about the entirety of the team/season. Basketball is a funny sport and if shots are falling (or not), things can happen. There is more random noise than we'd like to think there is - which should approximately average out in the end - but may not for a single Sweet Sixteen game in the NCAA's. We routinely see teams in the NBA playoffs get beaten by 20 points one night, turn around, and beat the SAME opponent by 15 the next night. But that's what makes it so much fun! :D

[flyingdutchdevil]

See, there are only two good teams this year.

I would use the phrase "really good" teams. And I'd extend the number to 3. Kansas is scaring the crap out of me now. IMO, they are the hottest team and have progressed the most in the last month.

They are athletic, they are balanced, and they have Embiid.

[jv001]

I would use the phrase "really good" teams. And I'd extend the number to 3. Kansas is scaring the crap out of me now. IMO, they are the hottest team and have progressed the most in the last month.

They are athletic, they are balanced, and they have Embiid.

I'm with you Dutch. Kansas has some talented players and they have a good coach in Self. Embiid seems to be one of the better players in the country. I think one of the so called college basketball experts said he might be the #1 pick in the next NBA draft. I would pick them to be in the list of teams likely to reach the Final Four. GoDuke!

[FerryFor50]

Embiid is ridiculous. I wondered in the Duke/Kansas matchup how Embiid was considered "raw," as he played with very natural instincts. As the season progresses, he's only gotten better.

He's got great touch around the rim. He can shoot from outside (all the way out to the 3pt line). He shoots 68% from the field (!!!). His FTs are solid - always great form (shoots 67% from the line). He rebounds well (13.1% ORB, 23.7% DRB, 19% TRB, 13.3 rebounds per 40 min). He blocks shots, and has great timing/instinct... the ones he doesn't block, he bothers. He attacks the rim aggressively. He is unstoppable on lob plays. Has great hops. Has decent post moves (running hook, etc). And he's cut down on the fouls a lot. He's jumping straight up and not fouling as much on pump fakes.

And his ball movement... he senses double teams and gets rid of the ball quick. He finds the open man often. And he doesn't make many bad passes.

His one knock is that he plays a little dirty sometimes and lets opponents' physicality take him out of his game and retaliate. And he needs to bulk up a bit to handle the NBA bigs.

But if I were an NBA GM, I'd pick that guy #1 overall.

[hurleyfor3]

I would use the phrase "really good" teams. And I'd extend the number to 3. Kansas is scaring the crap out of me now.

Beat you to it. I did write this (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?32832-Are-there-only-two-good-teams-this-year&p=693922#post693922) and this (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?32832-Are-there-only-two-good-teams-this-year&p=693928#post693928).

[flyingdutchdevil]

Embiid is ridiculous. I wondered in the Duke/Kansas matchup how Embiid was considered "raw," as he played with very natural instincts. As the season progresses, he's only gotten better.

He's got great touch around the rim. He can shoot from outside (all the way out to the 3pt line). He shoots 68% from the field (!!!). His FTs are solid - always great form (shoots 67% from the line). He rebounds well (13.1% ORB, 23.7% DRB, 19% TRB, 13.3 rebounds per 40 min). He blocks shots, and has great timing/instinct... the ones he doesn't block, he bothers. He attacks the rim aggressively. He is unstoppable on lob plays. Has great hops. Has decent post moves (running hook, etc). And he's cut down on the fouls a lot. He's jumping straight up and not fouling as much on pump fakes.

And his ball movement... he senses double teams and gets rid of the ball quick. He finds the open man often. And he doesn't make many bad passes.

His one knock is that he plays a little dirty sometimes and lets opponents' physicality take him out of his game and retaliate. And he needs to bulk up a bit to handle the NBA bigs.

But if I were an NBA GM, I'd pick that guy #1 overall.

Agree on every single point (except the dirty plays. I'm sure you're right, but I haven't noticed them). What I find amazing is that he's only played basketball for, what, 3 years? And he's this good?

Given the premium put on big men, and given his Olajuwon-type potential, I'd be baffled if he wasn't the #1 pick. The only team I can see who wouldn't choose Embiid at #1 is Milwaukee, as their best player is Larry Sanders. Given Sanders's inability to hit any type of jump shot, moving Sanders to the 4 isn't an option.

[FerryFor50]

Agree on every single point (except the dirty plays. I'm sure you're right, but I haven't noticed them). What I find amazing is that he's only played basketball for, what, 3 years? And he's this good?

Given the premium put on big men, and given his Olajuwon-type potential, I'd be baffled if he wasn't the #1 pick. The only team I can see who wouldn't choose Embiid at #1 is Milwaukee, as their best player is Larry Sanders. Given Sanders's inability to hit any type of jump shot, moving Sanders to the 4 isn't an option.

He's gotten ejected for a flagrant 2 elbow in one game, and hit a guy in the face in another game. He gets a little chippy at times and doesn't seem to like when players make contact with him on box outs. He'll need to get used to that, because teams will be physical with him.

[Troublemaker]

It's 4 points higher than the next closest team in the last 12 years, as far back as Kenpom goes (end of season numbers only). That was Wake Forest in 2005.

Hey TexHawk, thanks for that info.

I noticed that KU fans, by a wide margin, are the most numerous KenPom subscribers: http://kenpom.com/popular.php

Any reason you can think of for that being the case?

Lots of midwestern programs at the top of that list.

UCLA is tied for 30th place with fans from programs like VCU, Colorado, and Butler. Despite Wooden's championships, I kind of want to kick UCLA out of the blue bloods club of Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, UNC, and Indiana.

[FerryFor50]

Despite Wooden's championships, I kind of want to kick UCLA out of the blue bloods club of Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, UNC, and Indiana.

Didn't Ben Howland already do that for us?

[FerryFor50]

SI article on Embiid's draft prospects:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20140120/nba-prospect-watch-joel-embiid-andrew-wiggins/?eref=sihp

[flyingdutchdevil]

SI article on Embiid's draft prospects:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20140120/nba-prospect-watch-joel-embiid-andrew-wiggins/?eref=sihp

The most eye-opening conclusion from that article is how Wiggins has just fallen. Wiggins may have the most potential, but I also think is has the largest spread between floor and ceiling of any top 10 prospect. Wiggins could be the next Grant Hill or - given his inconsistency and lack of desire - the next Marvin Williams.

[MChambers]

To get back to the subject of this thread, what seems to have fueled Creighton's thrashing of Villanova was its amazing three point shooting. From the little bit I saw, it looked like many shots were very open.

Although our defense has been disappointing this year, I think we are still doing a pretty good job taking away three point shots. It occurs to me that Coach K may choose to emphasize that, because the three point shot can be a way less talented team can upset a more talented team. Of course, Vermont managed to use dribble penetration and layups to nearly upset Duke, so the extended defense does have its drawbacks.

[superdave]

To get back to the subject of this thread, what seems to have fueled Creighton's thrashing of Villanova was its amazing three point shooting. From the little bit I saw, it looked like many shots were very open.

Although our defense has been disappointing this year, I think we are still doing a pretty good job taking away three point shots. It occurs to me that Coach K may choose to emphasize that, because the three point shot can be a way less talented team can upset a more talented team. Of course, Vermont managed to use dribble penetration and layups to nearly upset Duke, so the extended defense does have its drawbacks.

Creighton was 2-19 from beyond the arc last March versus Coach K's Devils.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=330830150

[Wander]

To get back to the subject of this thread, what seems to have fueled Creighton's thrashing of Villanova was its amazing three point shooting. From the little bit I saw, it looked like many shots were very open.

Although our defense has been disappointing this year, I think we are still doing a pretty good job taking away three point shots. It occurs to me that Coach K may choose to emphasize that, because the three point shot can be a way less talented team can upset a more talented team. Of course, Vermont managed to use dribble penetration and layups to nearly upset Duke, so the extended defense does have its drawbacks.

Agreed. Playing guys like Kyle Singler or Jabari Parker or Lance Thomas at center can be a little frustrating at times, but their mobility probably leaves us much less susceptible to the Ethan Wragges of the world (ie, rangy forwards and centers).

[tommy]

The most eye-opening conclusion from that article is how Wiggins has just fallen. Wiggins may have the most potential, but I also think is has the largest spread between floor and ceiling of any top 10 prospect. Wiggins could be the next Grant Hill or - given his inconsistency and lack of desire - the next Marvin Williams.

What causes you to say that Wiggins has a "lack of desire?" Dude is killing it defensively, which would indicate just the opposite on the desire scale.

To me, the main thing Wiggins has to work on is his jump shot from beyond 15 feet. He's going to be a 3 in the NBA, so he's going to need to be able to hit that shot consistently. But even without it, there's no way he drops below 3 in the draft, and, depending on who has the pick and what they need, he still stands an excellent chance of going #1 overall.

[TexHawk]

The most eye-opening conclusion from that article is how Wiggins has just fallen. Wiggins may have the most potential, but I also think is has the largest spread between floor and ceiling of any top 10 prospect. Wiggins could be the next Grant Hill or - given his inconsistency and lack of desire - the next Marvin Williams.

Don't read too far into what Jeff Goodman has to say about Wiggins. He has found a little niche as a Wiggins-denier, he has always been down on him, and he went as far as calling him a bust after watching him practice for an hour, 3 weeks before KU's first game this year. That's not to say he isn't right sometimes, Wiggins clearly has been inconsistent at times.

But, come on now, it's not exactly hard to call a freshman inconsistent, basically anyone not named Kevin Durant or Michael Beasley struggles at times. Wiggins's game isn't about scoring 30 ppg, it never really was (despite all of the Maple Jordan nonsense). He's an A+ plus defender when he wants to be, and is tremendous in transition. His offense isn't nearly as bad as it is made out to be, ESPN wrote a nice little article (http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/83047/wiggins-excels-against-top-competition) about it recently.

[TexHawk]

What causes you to say that Wiggins has a "lack of desire?" Dude is killing it defensively, which would indicate just the opposite on the desire scale.

To me, the main thing Wiggins has to work on is his jump shot from beyond 15 feet. He's going to be a 3 in the NBA, so he's going to need to be able to hit that shot consistently. But even without it, there's no way he drops below 3 in the draft, and, depending on who has the pick and what they need, he still stands an excellent chance of going #1 overall.

If you were to ask me to grade Wiggins-Embiid as a KU fan, Embiid clearly gets an A+, Wiggins probably floats between a B+ and an A-. The guy is an absolute monster defensively when he wants to be, which is usually more often than not. I have seen him make some absolutely unreal blocks on perimeter jumpers.

But the desire has been lacking at times, especially against OSU in the 2nd half on Saturday. KU had a 17 point lead, and Wiggins's man (Markel Brown) was locked down in the 1st half. Wiggins was great. In the 2nd it flipped entirely, Brown went nuts (4-5) from three. And on most of them, Wiggins was there, he just didn't close or get his hand up. The narrative after the game was Phil Forte hitting all of those threes to keep it close, but if Wiggins had kept Brown down as he did in the 1st, it wouldn't have mattered. Bill Self eventually benched Wiggins for most of the rest of the 2nd half, only bringing him back in because we needed his foul shooting.

No idea what could have caused that lapse in concentration. I guess that's the bad side of the coin with 3 freshman starters.

[tommy]

If you were to ask me to grade Wiggins-Embiid as a KU fan, Embiid clearly gets an A+, Wiggins probably floats between a B+ and an A-. The guy is an absolute monster defensively when he wants to be, which is usually more often than not. I have seen him make some absolutely unreal blocks on perimeter jumpers.

But the desire has been lacking at times, especially against OSU in the 2nd half on Saturday. KU had a 17 point lead, and Wiggins's man (Markel Brown) was locked down in the 1st half. Wiggins was great. In the 2nd it flipped entirely, Brown went nuts (4-5) from three. And on most of them, Wiggins was there, he just didn't close or get his hand up. The narrative after the game was Phil Forte hitting all of those threes to keep it close, but if Wiggins had kept Brown down as he did in the 1st, it wouldn't have mattered. Bill Self eventually benched Wiggins for most of the rest of the 2nd half, only bringing him back in because we needed his foul shooting.

No idea what could have caused that lapse in concentration. I guess that's the bad side of the coin with 3 freshman starters.

I'm sure you're right. I didn't see that particular game.

But I just love how a thread on the Creighton-Villanova game ends up turning into a discussion of Joel Embiid and of Andrew Wiggins' intensity and desire. Gotta love these boards.

[FerryFor50]

I'm sure you're right. I didn't see that particular game.

But I just love how a thread on the Creighton-Villanova game ends up turning into a discussion of Joel Embiid and of Andrew Wiggins' intensity and desire. Gotta love these boards.

That's pretty much every board. At least there isn't a new thread started for every new thought. :)

[vick]

To get back to the subject of this thread, what seems to have fueled Creighton's thrashing of Villanova was its amazing three point shooting. From the little bit I saw, it looked like many shots were very open.

They were often reasonably open, but they were also frequently pretty long. I mean, Wragge's opening barrage was, IIRC, mostly shots from behind the NBA line, often by a few feet. If a team is hitting 25 footers, there just isn't really much a college-level defense can do (even the superior athletes in the NBA are going to struggle badly with that).

[flyingdutchdevil]

What causes you to say that Wiggins has a "lack of desire?" Dude is killing it defensively, which would indicate just the opposite on the desire scale.

To me, the main thing Wiggins has to work on is his jump shot from beyond 15 feet. He's going to be a 3 in the NBA, so he's going to need to be able to hit that shot consistently. But even without it, there's no way he drops below 3 in the draft, and, depending on who has the pick and what they need, he still stands an excellent chance of going #1 overall.

It's well-known that Wiggins disappears from certain games. It's not that he is inconsistent - he just disappears. After his excellent game against ISU, he shot only 5 times (made 1) against OKSU and had 2 rebounds. I define inconsistent as having bad statistical games and good statistical games, not disappearing from games. Jabari - for the last 5 or so games - has been inconsistent. But he continued to shoot and always tried to find his offensive game (but it never really came).

Wiggins is a defensive maestro. I will give you that. But I stand by the inconsistent and lack of desire on offense traits. These are absolutely fixable, though.

Again, he could be a top 5 SF or he could be a starter who just coasts for his career. He'll be a defensive stopper, but if he wants to cement his status as a great, he needs a lot more than that.

[FerryFor50]

They were often reasonably open, but they were also frequently pretty long. I mean, Wragge's opening barrage was, IIRC, mostly shots from behind the NBA line, often by a few feet. If a team is hitting 25 footers, there just isn't really much a college-level defense can do (even the superior athletes in the NBA are going to struggle badly with that).

Wragge was actually pretty well defended on some of those. One was several feet behind the NBA line. He was locked in, for sure. Nothing Nova could do other than doubling him off the ball.

[Wander]

See, there are only two good teams this year.

This is still silly:

Syracuse is 18-0 against the 123rd best schedule.
Wichita is 19-0 against the 139th best schedule.
Michigan State is 17-1 against the 45th best schedule.
Kansas is 14-4 against the 2nd best schedule.

The numbers are kenpom and shouldn't be taken religiously, but suffice it to say that WSU has the same record as Syracuse where both teams have played pretty easy schedules, and the other teams have a few losses but against much tougher schedules. I still don't know why you would consider Syracuse in a different class than these other teams right now.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Have only watched part of this game but it appears everything Creighton puts up goes in--looking at the box score they have made 21 of 33 3-pointers. Ridiculous!
Guess their coach must have had a good motivator after the Providence loss.

Creighton hit their first 9 threes in the game. Unreal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSjY0EPpX88&feature=share&list=FLbweNjl_KxuMAYVZX2zN5eA

[TexHawk]

It's well-known that Wiggins disappears from certain games. It's not that he is inconsistent - he just disappears. After his excellent game against ISU, he shot only 5 times (made 1) against OKSU and had 2 rebounds. I define inconsistent as having bad statistical games and good statistical games, not disappearing from games. Jabari - for the last 5 or so games - has been inconsistent. But he continued to shoot and always tried to find his offensive game (but it never really came).

I don't think it's as easy as just saying "he disappears". Wiggins has to share the ball with the possible #1 pick in the draft, another Top 10 freshman who is probably a lottery pick in 2015, plus returning starter Perry Ellis, who needs 10 shots a game too. Don't forget Naadir Tharpe, who is averaging 14ppg in conference play. And that's just the starting 5.

Every offensive set that Bill Self runs starts in the post. Everything begins with Embiid/Ellis/Traylor/Black. That would be the case if Michael Jordan, Magic, and Lebron were on the court too. So Wiggins "floats" on the perimeter because unless he has a wide open layup, he needs to look to Embiid first. And since everyone under the sun zones and doubles the post against KU these days, it is also important to swing the ball and look for open space. I think that makes it easy to appear like he's disinterested, and maybe he is at times, but he's also an unselfish player that will work for a good shot for a teammate.

Could he be better? Absolutely. He needs to drive more, because 7/10 times he's going to be fouled with the new rules (or at least he should be). He does need to be more selfish, especially when the team is in a scoring drought, or when Embiid is in foul trouble.

I am happy with him. He had a bad game against OSU, and some really poor games in the Bahamas, when he may or may not have had the flu. But even when he looks like he's had an average game, he generally steps up at the end of games... demanding the ball, rebounding, or making free throws (like last night).

[CDu]

I don't think it's as easy as just saying "he disappears". Wiggins has to share the ball with the possible #1 pick in the draft, another Top 10 freshman who is probably a lottery pick in 2015, plus returning starter Perry Ellis, who needs 10 shots a game too. Don't forget Naadir Tharpe, who is averaging 14ppg in conference play. And that's just the starting 5.

Every offensive set that Bill Self runs starts in the post. Everything begins with Embiid/Ellis/Traylor/Black. That would be the case if Michael Jordan, Magic, and Lebron were on the court too. So Wiggins "floats" on the perimeter because unless he has a wide open layup, he needs to look to Embiid first. And since everyone under the sun zones and doubles the post against KU these days, it is also important to swing the ball and look for open space. I think that makes it easy to appear like he's disinterested, and maybe he is at times, but he's also an unselfish player that will work for a good shot for a teammate.

Could he be better? Absolutely. He needs to drive more, because 7/10 times he's going to be fouled with the new rules (or at least he should be). He does need to be more selfish, especially when the team is in a scoring drought, or when Embiid is in foul trouble.

I am happy with him. He had a bad game against OSU, and some really poor games in the Bahamas, when he may or may not have had the flu. But even when he looks like he's had an average game, he generally steps up at the end of games... demanding the ball, rebounding, or making free throws (like last night).

Wiggins leads the team in FGA and FTA by a comfortable margin of more than 1.5 per game over Ellis. He averages over 10 FGA per game and has attempted more FT than Parker. He has shot fewer than 8 times in a game just twice, and one of those was a game in which he shot 7 times but attempted 12 FT. He has attempted as many or more shots as Embiid in all but one game (OSU). So with the exception of the OSU game (5 attempts, 3 points on 1-5 shooting) I'm not buying the "share the ball" argument with Wiggins.

Instead, I think the more likely argument is that he's a freak athlete whose skills (and awareness of his strengths/weaknesses) have apparently not yet caught up with his athleticism. He's not a good perimeter shooter yet he takes as many threes as anyone on the team.

I think the kid can become a terrific pro. But right now he's much more of an athlete than he is a skilled basketball player.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Wiggins leads the team in FGA and FTA by a comfortable margin of more than 1.5 per game over Ellis. He averages over 10 FGA per game and has attempted more FT than Parker. He has shot fewer than 8 times in a game just twice, and one of those was a game in which he shot 7 times but attempted 12 FT. He has attempted as many or more shots as Embiid in all but one game (OSU). So with the exception of the OSU game (5 attempts, 3 points on 1-5 shooting) I'm not buying the "share the ball" argument with Wiggins.

Instead, I think the more likely argument is that he's a freak athlete whose skills (and awareness of his strengths/weaknesses) have apparently not yet caught up with his athleticism. He's not a good perimeter shooter yet he takes as many threes as anyone on the team.

I think the kid can become a terrific pro. But right now he's much more of an athlete than he is a skilled basketball player.

And I think this is why his floor-ceiling is so wide.

I have nothing against Wiggins, but I do think that he's a more risky draft pick than Embiid, Jabari, or Randle (and possibly Exum and Smart).

Wiggins is part of what I believe to be the scariest team in America. They really have it all: size, athleticism, shooting, rebounding, defense, a strong rotation, and an excellent coach. I really want to see a Kansas-Kentucky match-up. Here's to the committee putting them in the same bracket.

[TexHawk]

Wiggins leads the team in FGA and FTA by a comfortable margin of more than 1.5 per game over Ellis. He averages over 10 FGA per game and has attempted more FT than Parker. He has shot fewer than 8 times in a game just twice, and one of those was a game in which he shot 7 times but attempted 12 FT. He has attempted as many or more shots as Embiid in all but one game (OSU). So with the exception of the OSU game (5 attempts, 3 points on 1-5 shooting) I'm not buying the "share the ball" argument with Wiggins.

Well, I was responding to the poster who sees him disappearing in games. The leading scorer and player with the most FGA of a team isn't generally considered to be non-existent. I personally don't think he disappears, but I can understand why someone who doesn't follow KU would. That's why I tried to explain the offensive philosophy, and why it may appear the way it does. Just trying to help a brutha (or sista) out.

I read someone the other day that tried to view this through a different lens. What if Embiid was the guy everyone called the next Jordan from age 16? What if he came into college with these outrageous expectations? What if he knew that 10+ NBA teams would be tanking their season for him, before he showed up on campus? What if he was on the cover of Sports Illustrated before ever appearing on college court? Would we now be complaining about his pedestrian 11ppg? Would there be posts on DBR about how he disappeared against Baylor last night? (He kinda did, he was on the bench for 12+ minutes in the 2nd half, in a competitive game, and he wasn't in foul trouble. You can't be less visible than on the bench next to Bill Self.)

Would we now be raving out this incredibly athletic Canadian kid that nobody had every heard of before, who leads the team in scoring? Would we now look for opportunities to "bash" the big center who everyone swore was the next Olajuwon, while praising the athletic swing man who could be the next Lebron?

[CDu]

Well, I was responding to the poster who sees him disappearing in games. The leading scorer and player with the most FGA of a team isn't generally considered to be non-existent. I personally don't think he disappears, but I can understand why someone who doesn't follow KU would. That's why I tried to explain the offensive philosophy, and why it may appear the way it does. Just trying to help a brutha (or sista) out.

I would say that the "disappearing" comment had less to do with not attempting shots and more to do with not making shots.


I read someone the other day that tried to view this through a different lens. What if Embiid was the guy everyone called the next Jordan from age 16? What if he came into college with these outrageous expectations? What if he knew that 10+ NBA teams would be tanking their season for him, before he showed up on campus? What if he was on the cover of Sports Illustrated before ever appearing on college court? Would we now be complaining about his pedestrian 11ppg? Would there be posts on DBR about how he disappeared against Baylor last night? (He kinda did, he was on the bench for 12+ minutes in the 2nd half, in a competitive game, and he wasn't in foul trouble. You can't be less visible than on the bench next to Bill Self.)

Would we now be raving out this incredibly athletic Canadian kid that nobody had every heard of before, who leads the team in scoring? Would we now look for opportunities to "bash" the big center who everyone swore was the next Olajuwon, while praising the athletic swing man who could be the next Lebron?[/QUOTE]

Well, that's an interesting hypothetical, but I'm not really sure it's relevant. I'd also note that Embiid is currently shooting 68% from the field, averaging a rebound every 3 minutes, and averaging a block every 8 minutes. So I'd say that the only thing he isn't doing is getting enough shots. I'd say that's especially true when that athletic Canadian kid and that Selden kid are taking many more shots while making those shots at a much lower efficiency.

But, more importantly, there's a REASON why Embiid didn't get that kind of pub. He was brought in as a project. Despite that, his play has been off the charts in quality. His rebounding and shotblocking are ridiculous, and he's taking very smart shots. If he had come in as clearly the next Olajuwon with NBA-ready post-skills, he arguably wouldn't be taking so few shots now would he?

Wiggins is suffering from the same problem as Barnes did. He was overhyped as "the next great thing" based on outathleting his competition in high school. But at the college level, he's finding that his athleticism alone isn't enough to make him dominant. He needs to improve as a player.

Right now, regardless of hype, I'd say that Embiid has been the more productive player for Kansas when he's been able to stay on the floor. The only issue he's had has been foul trouble, which is understandable given his position and his lack of experience. But he's done extremely well for Kansas, whereas Wiggins has just been good but not great.

I mean, if you want to compare two players who play similar roles for their teams and had similar hype coming into their freshman years, compare Parker to Wiggins:

Parker: 29.1 mpg, 19.1 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.1 bpg, 0.9 spg, 2.1 fpg, 2.1 tpg, 48.6 fg%, 40.9 3pt%
Wiggins: 31.7 mpg, 15.2 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.9 bpg, 0.9 spg, 2.4 fpg, 2.1 tpg, 43.9 fg%, 32.8 3pt%

Is there anything that Wiggins does clearly better than Parker right now?

Also, let's drop the "could be the next LeBron" stuff. Wiggins doesn't have nearly the all-around game to be a LeBron. He could mayb become the next Dominique, or maybe the next Vince Carter. But he's not going to be the next LeBron.

[TexHawk]

I would say that the "disappearing" comment had less to do with not attempting shots and more to do with not making shots.
Maybe, dunno, wasn't my term. In my experience, when I hear "disappearing", it usually means they don't see the guy doing anything. If it's about a guy shooting a lot and not making enough shots, it's a different word.


Well, that's an interesting hypothetical, but I'm not really sure it's relevant.
It wasn't really meant to be super relevant. It's as you said, the sooner people can drop the "next Lebron" stuff, we are all better off. I just wonder if anybody would be making these posts about your run-of-the-mill Top 10 player in any other season.



I'd also note that Embiid is currently shooting 68% from the field, averaging a rebound every 3 minutes, and averaging a block every 8 minutes. So I'd say that the only thing he isn't doing is getting enough shots. I'd say that's especially true when that athletic Canadian kid and that Selden kid are taking many more shots while making those shots at a much lower efficiency.

But, more importantly, there's a REASON why Embiid didn't get that kind of pub. He was brought in as a project. Despite that, his play has been off the charts in quality. His rebounding and shotblocking are ridiculous, and he's taking very smart shots. If he had come in as clearly the next Olajuwon with NBA-ready post-skills, he arguably wouldn't be taking so few shots now would he?

Ok, back to real basketball talk. Not sure if this is a subtle dig at Wiggins/Selden for shooting too much, but the fact is, Embiid has 2-3 defenders hanging on him every time he touches the ball. Trust me, he has the greenest light of anyone on the team, from the basket to the 3 point line, it's just that nobody let's him have the ball in space anymore. The kid is about 800% more comfortable with a double team than he was in November, he passes the ball well, but the fact is, *somebody* has to shoot. A wide open Wiggins/Selden is a better option than Embiid with two guys in his shorts.



I mean, if you want to compare two players who play similar roles for their teams and had similar hype coming into their freshman years, compare Parker to Wiggins:

Parker: 29.1 mpg, 19.1 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.1 bpg, 0.9 spg, 2.1 fpg, 2.1 tpg, 48.6 fg%, 40.9 3pt%
Wiggins: 31.7 mpg, 15.2 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.9 bpg, 0.9 spg, 2.4 fpg, 2.1 tpg, 43.9 fg%, 32.8 3pt%

Is there anything that Wiggins does clearly better than Parker right now?

As I said a couple months ago on here, I am not going to engage in a Wiggins v. Parker discussion on a Duke board. I love you all too much. Can we all just agree that you are happy with your guy, and we are happy with ours?

[CDu]

Maybe, dunno, wasn't my term. In my experience, when I hear "disappearing", it usually means they don't see the guy doing anything. If it's about a guy shooting a lot and not making enough shots, it's a different word.


It wasn't really meant to be super relevant. It's as you said, the sooner people can drop the "next Lebron" stuff, we are all better off. I just wonder if anybody would be making these posts about your run-of-the-mill Top 10 player in any other season.


Ok, back to real basketball talk. Not sure if this is a subtle dig at Wiggins/Selden for shooting too much, but the fact is, Embiid has 2-3 defenders hanging on him every time he touches the ball. Trust me, he has the greenest light of anyone on the team, from the basket to the 3 point line, it's just that nobody let's him have the ball in space anymore. The kid is about 800% more comfortable with a double team than he was in November, he passes the ball well, but the fact is, *somebody* has to shoot. A wide open Wiggins/Selden is a better option than Embiid with two guys in his shorts.


As I said a couple months ago on here, I am not going to engage in a Wiggins v. Parker discussion on a Duke board. I love you all too much. Can we all just agree that you are happy with your guy, and we are happy with ours?

I can agree that we are both happy with our guys. But can you really not admit that Parker has been more productive so far this year? I mean, if the stats were reversed, I would certainly admit that Wiggins was performing better so far. Seems pretty cut and dry.

[Des Esseintes]

I can agree that we are both happy with our guys. But can you really not admit that Parker has been more productive so far this year? I mean, if the stats were reversed, I would certainly admit that Wiggins was performing better so far. Seems pretty cut and dry.

Rather than force Texhawk into an argument he wisely seeks to avoid, I think there is a fairly straightforward case to be made for Wiggins:

*Parker is the better scorer, no question. Still, Wiggins is a gifted scorer, and 17ppg at the college level is nothing to sneeze at.

*On rebounding, though Parker boards more, he also plays more inside. Both guys are strong rebounders for their position.

*Assists are a wash. Jabari probably has a higher ceiling here, because he fires lasers when he wants to. But that's not showing yet in the production.

*Then defense, where Wiggins is elite and Parker is maybe our worst starter on defense.

It's a question of whether Jabari's significant advantage in offensive potency is matched by Wiggins's superior defense. To me, I think either fanbase could plausibly claim their guy was better. Superficial stats argue for Parker, but I'm betting the best advanced stats measuring a player's impact on defensive efficiency would be similarly preponderant for Wiggins.

[TexHawk]

I can agree that we are both happy with our guys. But can you really not admit that Parker has been more productive so far this year? I mean, if the stats were reversed, I would certainly admit that Wiggins was performing better so far. Seems pretty cut and dry.

I can admit that Parker has been more productive. Offensively, no doubt, that's easier to quantify. I do think Wiggins is an elite defender, ~80% of the time, when he really wants to be. That's not really a comparison to Parker, because IMO Wiggins is easily a top 5 defender in CBB this year. Even when he's not totally engaged defensively, he's still better than most. I do think his offense is better than many give him credit for, but I can't slice it in a way that compares to Parker. That's not a dig on Wiggins, Parker has just been very good.

My preference for Wiggins is based on what he brings to this current KU team. Embiid blocks and alters a lot of shots, but he is still learning defense, he still loses his man too much. Tharpe/Selden/Ellis are subpar defenders (Selden is getting better). The bench is also pretty poor defensively, outside of a few nice Traylor games.

All of that means that Wiggins is the only plus perimeter defender on the court. You only have to look at Monday night's Baylor game. Brady Heslip went off, 5-5 threes in the first half with Selden on him, singlehandedly keeping Baylor in the game. In the 2nd half, Self stuck Wiggins on him, and he disappeared. He didn't block a shot or pick up a steal... Heslip just never got any space. Normally you could look up the stats and just assume a bit of regression, as nobody shoots 100% from three. But Heslip only took 3 shots in the entire 2nd half, and I think at least one was in transition. That level of defense won't show up in bpg or spg.

Bill Self's teams are always near the Top 10 in AdjD. This year KU is floating in the mid-20s. Without Wiggins, I don't want to fathom how much worse that would be.

[NSDukeFan]

I can admit that Parker has been more productive. Offensively, no doubt, that's easier to quantify. I do think Wiggins is an elite defender, ~80% of the time, when he really wants to be. That's not really a comparison to Parker, because IMO Wiggins is easily a top 5 defender in CBB this year. Even when he's not totally engaged defensively, he's still better than most. I do think his offense is better than many give him credit for, but I can't slice it in a way that compares to Parker. That's not a dig on Wiggins, Parker has just been very good.

My preference for Wiggins is based on what he brings to this current KU team. Embiid blocks and alters a lot of shots, but he is still learning defense, he still loses his man too much. Tharpe/Selden/Ellis are subpar defenders (Selden is getting better). The bench is also pretty poor defensively, outside of a few nice Traylor games.

All of that means that Wiggins is the only plus perimeter defender on the court. You only have to look at Monday night's Baylor game. Brady Heslip went off, 5-5 threes in the first half with Selden on him, singlehandedly keeping Baylor in the game. In the 2nd half, Self stuck Wiggins on him, and he disappeared. He didn't block a shot or pick up a steal... Heslip just never got any space. Normally you could look up the stats and just assume a bit of regression, as nobody shoots 100% from three. But Heslip only took 3 shots in the entire 2nd half, and I think at least one was in transition. That level of defense won't show up in bpg or spg.

Bill Self's teams are always near the Top 10 in AdjD. This year KU is floating in the mid-20s. Without Wiggins, I don't want to fathom how much worse that would be.

Is the 2012 UK team reasonable as a loose comparison for the ceiling of this year's KU team? Embiid is kind of a poor man's Davis, but getting closer. Wiggins is comparable to Kidd-Gilchrist defensively, but a bit more athletic, a better perimeter scorer, but perhaps not quite as strong with some intangibles? Ellis is perhaps a less athletic version of Jones? Embiid and Wiggins give Kansas potentially two impact defensive players that, if the team improves, may make the team difficult to score against come tournament time. I jumped on the Embiid bandwagon after seeing him play last weekend. I see why some say he could go # 1 overall.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Is the 2012 UK team reasonable as a loose comparison for the ceiling of this year's KU team? Embiid is kind of a poor man's Davis, but getting closer. Wiggins is comparable to Kidd-Gilchrist defensively, but a bit more athletic, a better perimeter scorer, but perhaps not quite as strong with some intangibles? Ellis is perhaps a less athletic version of Jones? Embiid and Wiggins give Kansas potentially two impact defensive players that, if the team improves, may make the team difficult to score against come tournament time. I jumped on the Embiid bandwagon after seeing him play last weekend. I see why some say he could go # 1 overall.

Very interesting comparison. I definitely see it (gulp).

One thing though - who is the heart and soul of this Kansas team? On UK, it was clearly MKG. He was the glue and the quintessential leader. Having a freshman leader like that doesn't come around often.

[fidel]

A bit of a segway in the thread, but props to the 'Creighton Barrels' tag line. Gave me a good laugh this am.

[TexHawk]

Very interesting comparison. I definitely see it (gulp).

One thing though - who is the heart and soul of this Kansas team? On UK, it was clearly MKG. He was the glue and the quintessential leader. Having a freshman leader like that doesn't come around often.

Leaders are funny things sometimes. Bill Self calls Russell Robinson the glue and leader of the 2008 championship team, and they would not have won without him. So Robinson now has a place in KU history, everyone loves him when he comes back to campus, will never have to buy his own drink in Lawrence ever again, etc. But of course, *during* that title run, ~80% of KU fans were screaming at their TVs to get Robinson out of there, and let Sherron Collins have his minutes.

To answer your question, I don't know. I do not think there is one guy running team-only practices/workouts like MKG did. Maybe that's a flaw, I guess we will see. But we aren't in practices or the locker room (they keep kicking me out), so maybe there's a quiet Robinson-like leader that we don't know about. I DO like the fact that the team has a bit of a chip on its shoulder now, after being called soft by anyone with a internet connection in November/December. Now they are "thugs". Oh well.

I also find it interesting that some on here find KU to be a very good, possibly excellent team. I think they are good and improving, but I probably watch too closely. I focus on things like TO% (288 in Kenpom), TO% forced (302 in Kenpom), and like I said before, collectively just a pretty poor defensive team (in relation to previous Bill Self teams). Right now, I would actually put them right where the AP has them, #8.

[jv001]

I just noticed that Pomeroy has Creighton rated #2 behind Arizona. Also noted that Michigan and Virginia are rated ahead of Duke. Two teams we defeated. I just don't see how those two teams are rated higher than Duke. I guess it's because of our poor defensive numbers. But, we did beat those teams. GoDuke!

[Bluedog]

I just noticed that Pomeroy has Creighton rated #2 behind Arizona. Also noted that Michigan and Virginia are rated ahead of Duke. Two teams we defeated. I just don't see how those two teams are rated higher than Duke. I guess it's because of our poor defensive numbers. But, we did beat those teams. GoDuke!

Well, we're also rated well ahead of two teams we lost to...so....(it averages out).

[Indoor66]

Well, we're also rated well ahead of two teams we lost to...so....(it averages out).

Or maybe it shows how truly meaningless most of the ratings are?

[pfrduke]

Or maybe it shows how truly meaningless most of the ratings are?

Well, the transitive property of victories doesn't work either. You can't just say one team is better than another team overall because they won one game. You get stuck in circles. Oklahoma State-beat-Colorado-beat-Kansas-beat-Oklahoma State. Is OK State the best or worst of those teams?

[Indoor66]

Well, the transitive property of victories doesn't work either. You can't just say one team is better than another team overall because they won one game. You get stuck in circles. Oklahoma State-beat-Colorado-beat-Kansas-beat-Oklahoma State. Is OK State the best or worst of those teams?

Yea. Transitive, Intransitive, who the heck knows? :cool:

[tommy]

Don't read too far into what Jeff Goodman has to say about Wiggins. He has found a little niche as a Wiggins-denier, he has always been down on him, and he went as far as calling him a bust after watching him practice for an hour, 3 weeks before KU's first game this year. That's not to say he isn't right sometimes, Wiggins clearly has been inconsistent at times.

But, come on now, it's not exactly hard to call a freshman inconsistent, basically anyone not named Kevin Durant or Michael Beasley struggles at times. Wiggins's game isn't about scoring 30 ppg, it never really was (despite all of the Maple Jordan nonsense). He's an A+ plus defender when he wants to be, and is tremendous in transition. His offense isn't nearly as bad as it is made out to be, ESPN wrote a nice little article (http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/83047/wiggins-excels-against-top-competition) about it recently.

I came across an interesting little analysis of Wiggins' performance thus far this year, over at collegebasketballtalk.com. It's based on the writer's actual film breakdown of Wiggins' play in Big 12 action. It is both complimentary and critical, but not in a harsh way, with the primary criticisms seeming to be his inability to get to the rim consistently against set defenses, and his overall lack of physical strength. And a surprising lack of confidence on the floor. Interesting. The link is here (http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/23/film-study-andrew-wiggins-vs-aaron-gordon-and-the-power-of-hype/). I'd be curious to hear what TexHawk and others who have also watched a lot of Wiggins think of the analysis.

[throatybeard]

A bit of a segway in the thread

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