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Channing
01-13-2014, 10:07 PM
This is a serious question - do we actually run an offense? I see guys moving around and I see screens being set, but we rarely pass to the roller on the screen and roll, we never seem to run back door cuts, we rarely if ever run the ball through the post (high or low) meaning that we rarely have any interior passing, and the only drive and dish we ever see is the occasional pass to the three point line. More often than not it seems our offense relies on throwing the ball around the perimeter and someone either shooting a three or attempting a drive and contested shot. Amile and Jabari may not be 7 feet but they can both play on the low block. We have seen it out of Rodney. Rodney and Rasheed should be great slashers. There is no shortage of talent on this team, bu it seems like our offensive flow tends to stagnate and we never really get as good of looks as we should, and certainly not on a consistent basis.

Can someone with a better understanding of basketball than I explain why I am wrong? I would like more than someone pointing out that Coach K knows what he is doing and has won more national championships and gold medals than I have ... I am aware of all those facts.

AncientPsychicT
01-13-2014, 10:34 PM
This is a serious question - do we actually run an offense? I see guys moving around and I see screens being set, but we rarely pass to the roller on the screen and roll, we never seem to run back door cuts, we rarely if ever run the ball through the post (high or low) meaning that we rarely have any interior passing, and the only drive and dish we ever see is the occasional pass to the three point line. More often than not it seems our offense relies on throwing the ball around the perimeter and someone either shooting a three or attempting a drive and contested shot. Amile and Jabari may not be 7 feet but they can both play on the low block. We have seen it out of Rodney. Rodney and Rasheed should be great slashers. There is no shortage of talent on this team, bu it seems like our offensive flow tends to stagnate and we never really get as good of looks as we should, and certainly not on a consistent basis.

Can someone with a better understanding of basketball than I explain why I am wrong? I would like more than someone pointing out that Coach K knows what he is doing and has won more national championships and gold medals than I have ... I am aware of all those facts.

This, this, 1000 times this.

We saw it in action once again today; our big (usually Amile this game) sets a pick for one of our perimeter players and rolls to the basket virtually uncovered (sometimes completely uncovered). Yet we almost never pass him the ball. Why ever not? I can understand the defenders on the passer preventing a good pass, but still, with a wide open target almost every time we run this play, our guards/Rodney/Jabari should be able to get off a clean pass once every 2 or 3 times we run it. One of the reasons the roller is almost always wide open is that other teams realize that we usually completely ignore the roller, thus they leave him undefended near the basket at minimal risk. This situation should never happen to an offense (an open player near the basket being a nonfactor to the defense). With how perimeter-focused our offense is, getting the opposing center to back off our guard and cover our big whenever we screen would make our screens that much more effective and open up much bigger lanes for our guards to drive into. They way that is done is by passing to the rolling big when the defense elects to leave him completely unguarded.

Speaking of the pick and roll, I've noticed that we have been running the roll play off of the screen quite a bit more in the past few games than we normally do; perhaps the coaches are trying to integrate the play into our offense quite a bit more, and we just haven't practiced it enough for our perimeter players to hit the rolling big confidently or consistently. If so, I would imagine that this will be an emphasis in practice in the long layoff until our next game Saturday against State.

Also, Channing, to address your larger point about our offense being stagnant recently, I believe that has much to do with Coach K admitting he hasn't been entirely himself recently, and for good reason, according to this tweet. (https://twitter.com/stevewisemanNC/status/422921493543022593) I would imagine as coach regains his focus, so will our offensive strategy.

GGLC
01-13-2014, 10:37 PM
Couldn't agree more with the first post in the thread.

mike88
01-13-2014, 10:41 PM
This is a serious question - do we actually run an offense? I see guys moving around and I see screens being set, but we rarely pass to the roller on the screen and roll, we never seem to run back door cuts, we rarely if ever run the ball through the post (high or low) meaning that we rarely have any interior passing, and the only drive and dish we ever see is the occasional pass to the three point line. More often than not it seems our offense relies on throwing the ball around the perimeter and someone either shooting a three or attempting a drive and contested shot. Amile and Jabari may not be 7 feet but they can both play on the low block. We have seen it out of Rodney. Rodney and Rasheed should be great slashers. There is no shortage of talent on this team, bu it seems like our offensive flow tends to stagnate and we never really get as good of looks as we should, and certainly not on a consistent basis.

Can someone with a better understanding of basketball than I explain why I am wrong? I would like more than someone pointing out that Coach K knows what he is doing and has won more national championships and gold medals than I have ... I am aware of all those facts.

well, tonight they ran a lot of their motion offense- it doesn't emphasize the low post (and when we went to Jabari in the low post, they immediately doubled us)

when not running motion, we run a lot of sideline pick and roll, or we start the offense from the elbow (rather than the high post)- something they have emphasized more in the past few years

driving and kicking for open threes is our "bread and butter" but you have to give teams like Virginia credit- they know what we do well and are pretty good at limiting our best options, so in some cases we end up settling for suboptimal shots- once Jabari gets a little more savvy and selective about which parts of his arsenal to use, the offense will look more polished, but this year we are always going to be limited by a lack of another low-post scorer

GGLC
01-13-2014, 10:45 PM
I think Amile is eminently capable of being a low post scorer if they get him the ball.

Channing
01-13-2014, 10:51 PM
well, tonight they ran a lot of their motion offense- it doesn't emphasize the low post (and when we went to Jabari in the low post, they immediately doubled us)

when not running motion, we run a lot of sideline pick and roll, or we start the offense from the elbow (rather than the high post)- something they have emphasized more in the past few years

driving and kicking for open threes is our "bread and butter" but you have to give teams like Virginia credit- they know what we do well and are pretty good at limiting our best options, so in some cases we end up settling for suboptimal shots- once Jabari gets a little more savvy and selective about which parts of his arsenal to use, the offense will look more polished, but this year we are always going to be limited by a lack of another low-post scorer

Ok, motion offense should call for hitting cutters though and getting some shots moving towards the hoops. I may have missed it, but I didn't see it. Further, since we never pass to the cutter, the cutters don't attack the hoop on their cuts and seem to just coast through the interior of the three point arc until they circle back out to he three point arc.

I'm not saying we don't move on offense and don't set screens. But, when the rubber meets the road and it is time to actually take a shot, it seems to be a contested drive or a three point shot after some perimeter passing.

Marshall is big and athletic ... Why not drive and toss one up to him? Surely Amile could catch a lob or a bounce pass of a drive?

bbosbbos
01-13-2014, 10:54 PM
Our A team did not move the ball well. Cook slowed everything down, while his 4 teammates liked to be a screener but not a shooter. Very strange, when Parker was surrounded by 2 or 3 opponents, no one was in his back to create an inside-out shot. Probably everyone trusted Parker so much and thought he'd never need help. The consequence was a bad jump shot or a block.

B team moved the ball a lot quicker, space was made relatively easy for a 3. B team actually had 2 PGs, RS and TT. The weakness of B team is their scoring efficiency. Dre missed several shots. Josh and MP3 were good D but weak O.

I think a two teams competition is good for us. Team A gives physical pressure to opponents and team B changes the team speed.

Edouble
01-13-2014, 10:58 PM
I think Amile is eminently capable of being a low post scorer if they get him the ball.

I find just the opposite to be true. He is such an effective driver from the top of the key. He is quick enough to get by most centers that are guarding him, and with his length, he is at the rim in about two steps.

I don't see him being an effective post player. His put backs after rebounds are usually due to his quickness, not his power. When he doesn't have a quick put back he tends to pass it out to a guard.

I suppose he could execute a lightening fast drop step, but to be capable, I think you have to have a post move and a counter move. With his lack of brute strength, I think it would be hard for Amile to have enough post moves in his arsenal to fool defenders for too long.

OldPhiKap
01-13-2014, 11:01 PM
Carlos Boozer made a living on the pick and roll -- Karl Malone-like on a college level -- so it is obviously part of the bag of tricks. Not sure why Parker cannot feed on this.

I know we want Parker everywhere, but does he set screens up top and roll? Have to think about that, not sure.

If Marahall has good hands, he and Cook or TT could run this and either score or draw the foul.

Edouble
01-13-2014, 11:04 PM
Carlos Boozer made a living on the pick and roll -- Karl Malone-like on a college level -- so it is obviously part of the bag of tricks. Not sure why Parker cannot feed on this.

I know we want Parker everywhere, but does he set screens up top and roll? Have to think about that, not sure.

If Marahall has good hands, he and Cook or TT could run this and either score or draw the foul.

IMHO, Boozer's effectiveness with the pick and roll though, was due to JDub's insane quickness and insanely quick decision making coming off the screen.

OldPhiKap
01-13-2014, 11:06 PM
IMHO, Boozer's effectiveness with the pick and roll though, was due to JDub's insane quickness and insanely quick decision making coming off the screen.

Big part, true, but I do not see why QC cannot do the same.

Rudy
01-13-2014, 11:23 PM
I see guys moving around and I see screens being set, but we rarely pass to the roller on the screen and roll

This has been true of Duke for a few years. I started watching for it in the '09-'10 team. During the ACC tournament that year I had a low seat near one basket end and I was shocked how open Zoubek and Thomas were time and time again without receiving feeds off the pick and roll. Now, the other three guys were great scorers, of course, and they likely learned after a year or two that Brian and Lance did not have the softest of hands. A lot of that season only one or two of the top three of Scheyer, Singler and Smith were shooting well in the same game and it was enough to get by. It was sweet to see all three get their shooting going in the ACC tournament and carry it into March Madness. But they still didn't feed the bigs on pick-and-rolls.

Jefferson does seem to have good hands, so maybe we'll see more feeds to him off screens.

Des Esseintes
01-14-2014, 02:32 AM
This, this, 1000 times this.

We saw it in action once again today; our big (usually Amile this game) sets a pick for one of our perimeter players and rolls to the basket virtually uncovered (sometimes completely uncovered). Yet we almost never pass him the ball. Why ever not? I can understand the defenders on the passer preventing a good pass, but still, with a wide open target almost every time we run this play, our guards/Rodney/Jabari should be able to get off a clean pass once every 2 or 3 times we run it. One of the reasons the roller is almost always wide open is that other teams realize that we usually completely ignore the roller, thus they leave him undefended near the basket at minimal risk. This situation should never happen to an offense (an open player near the basket being a nonfactor to the defense). With how perimeter-focused our offense is, getting the opposing center to back off our guard and cover our big whenever we screen would make our screens that much more effective and open up much bigger lanes for our guards to drive into. They way that is done is by passing to the rolling big when the defense elects to leave him completely unguarded.

Speaking of the pick and roll, I've noticed that we have been running the roll play off of the screen quite a bit more in the past few games than we normally do; perhaps the coaches are trying to integrate the play into our offense quite a bit more, and we just haven't practiced it enough for our perimeter players to hit the rolling big confidently or consistently. If so, I would imagine that this will be an emphasis in practice in the long layoff until our next game Saturday against State.

Also, Channing, to address your larger point about our offense being stagnant recently, I believe that has much to do with Coach K admitting he hasn't been entirely himself recently, and for good reason, according to this tweet. (https://twitter.com/stevewisemanNC/status/422921493543022593) I would imagine as coach regains his focus, so will our offensive strategy.

It's actually none of these things. Duke's offense is not stagnant. It's hung steady in the top 2 of pace-adjusted efficiency the entire season. We just happened to play the #8 defense in the country on Saturday and the #3 defense in the country tonight. These teams are exceptionally good at preventing points. Considering that Jabari is going through some bizarre doldrums right now, we should feel pretty bullish about the O. The D comprises 98% of what we have to worry about this season. Duke will go right back to putting up gaudy scoring totals as soon as it starts playing less spectacular defenses, same as everyone else.

I would also point out that everybody loves to call for post-ups. To paraphrase Charlie Babbitt, post-ups suck, Ray. They are one of the least efficient ways to put up a shot. The NBA has drifted further and further from them over the years, using post-ups instead as a place from which to pass. Is that Amile's skillset, or even Hood's? It might be Jabari's, but the offense is already built around getting him the ball in a variety of spots. I don't think K is missing a trick there. Interior passing: not a strength of the 2013-14 Duke Blue Devils.
The coaching staff is smart to emphasize Duke's elite attributes, which are perimeter shooting and attacking the basket.

TKG
01-14-2014, 08:54 AM
I attended last night's game and was seated a few rows behind the bench in the upper section of Cameron. At the 11:43 mark of the second half K pulled Jabari from the game after getting on Parker as Jabari was making his way to the bench for a TO. On the offensive possesion prior to the timeout Wojo was off the bench screaming at Jabari and poinitng to where Jabari was supposed to be to run the offense. Jabari had no clue what was going on. I was thinking, this kid doesn't know the offense. It's January and he doesn't know the offense? Perhaps Jabari didn't hear the play call as it did get loud a few times last night; and I would love believe that was the case. But the fact that K really got after him at the next TO and then pulled him from the game makes me think otherwise.

This kid is talented beyond words. Perhpas it is similar to the discriptions offered by young quarterbacks in the NFL who remark that the game is too fast and they need to learn to slow the game down. Maybe that is what Jabari is experiencing right now on both ends of the floor. But it was pretty clear last night Jabari's struggles are not limited to learning to play D. He is struggling to learn the O as well.

MCFinARL
01-14-2014, 09:04 AM
Our A team did not move the ball well. Cook slowed everything down, while his 4 teammates liked to be a screener but not a shooter. Very strange, when Parker was surrounded by 2 or 3 opponents, no one was in his back to create an inside-out shot. Probably everyone trusted Parker so much and thought he'd never need help. The consequence was a bad jump shot or a block.

B team moved the ball a lot quicker, space was made relatively easy for a 3. B team actually had 2 PGs, RS and TT. The weakness of B team is their scoring efficiency. Dre missed several shots. Josh and MP3 were good D but weak O.

I think a two teams competition is good for us. Team A gives physical pressure to opponents and team B changes the team speed.

Small but important correction: Andre took three shots. One was a three-pointer, which he made. Two were drives, one of which he missed, not drawing a foul, and one of which he missed, drawing a foul and making both shots. To me, three field goal attempts resulting, ultimately, in five points is fairly efficient.

devildeac
01-14-2014, 09:41 AM
IMHO, Boozer's effectiveness with the pick and roll though, was due to JDub's insane quickness and insanely quick decision making coming off the screen.

I thought Boozer had great hands, too. (And yes, he was fouled:mad:.)

TKG
01-14-2014, 10:02 AM
I thought Boozer had great hands, too. (And yes, he was fouled:mad:.)

Matt Christensen would agree and he was in attendance at the game last night!

mike88
01-14-2014, 10:47 AM
It's actually none of these things. Duke's offense is not stagnant. It's hung steady in the top 2 of pace-adjusted efficiency the entire season. We just happened to play the #8 defense in the country on Saturday and the #3 defense in the country tonight. These teams are exceptionally good at preventing points. Considering that Jabari is going through some bizarre doldrums right now, we should feel pretty bullish about the O. The D comprises 98% of what we have to worry about this season. Duke will go right back to putting up gaudy scoring totals as soon as it starts playing less spectacular defenses, same as everyone else.

I would also point out that everybody loves to call for post-ups. To paraphrase Charlie Babbitt, post-ups suck, Ray. They are one of the least efficient ways to put up a shot. The NBA has drifted further and further from them over the years, using post-ups instead as a place from which to pass. Is that Amile's skillset, or even Hood's? It might be Jabari's, but the offense is already built around getting him the ball in a variety of spots. I don't think K is missing a trick there. Interior passing: not a strength of the 2013-14 Duke Blue Devils.
The coaching staff is smart to emphasize Duke's elite attributes, which are perimeter shooting and attacking the basket.

This is right on-target- I am not sure we have given enough credit to how good Clemson and Virginia's defenses are- against teams like these, everyone is going to look bad on some possessions. I thought we did a good job last night and a good job for the first 30 minutes Saturday in getting good scoring opportunities. Our basic offensive schemes are sound- and will work even better once Jabari matures a little and lets the game come to him- I feel like he is forcing a little right now.

Bob Green
01-14-2014, 10:56 AM
I see guys moving around and I see screens being set, but we rarely pass to the roller on the screen and roll...

While I definitely desire to see the pass to the roller attempted more, in defense of the team, it is a difficult pass as the roller is normally open for just a split second (unless the defense completely breaks down) so a quick decision is required. A great example of pick-n-roll success is the Dawkins to Jefferson pass in a recent game. My memory is failing me as I cannot remember if the play took place during the Georgia Tech or Clemson game. The bottom line is success will not be achieved without attempting to execute the pass.

Channing
01-14-2014, 11:00 AM
While I definitely desire to see the pass to the roller attempted more, in defense of the team, it is a difficult pass as the roller is normally open for just a split second (unless the defense completely breaks down) so a quick decision is required. A great example of pick-n-roll success is the Dawkins to Jefferson pass in a recent game. My memory is failing me as I cannot remember if the play took place during the Georgia Tech or Clemson game. The bottom line is success will not be achieved without attempting to execute the pass.

Agreed, it is not an easy play. However, if teams with SIGNIFICANTLY less talent than us can successfully execute pick-and-roll, backdoor cuts, interior passing, etc. against us, I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to do the same.

GGLC
01-14-2014, 11:29 AM
Matt Christensen would agree and he was in attendance at the game last night!

Did I see Lee Melchionni next to Gerald Henderson, as well?

Kedsy
01-14-2014, 11:33 AM
Agreed, it is not an easy play. However, if teams with SIGNIFICANTLY less talent than us can successfully execute pick-and-roll, backdoor cuts, interior passing, etc. against us, I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to do the same.

A lot of the teams who execute those things well have made those plays the centerpieces of their offense, in other words their offenses are designed to yield those plays and little else (except perhaps three-pointers). Coach K likes to play a more open offense where the players have a lot more freedom, so it's a lot harder to see and connect on the rolls and backdoor cuts to the basket.

TKG
01-14-2014, 11:46 AM
Did I see Lee Melchionni next to Gerald Henderson, as well?

You did, indeed. Mr. Justise Winslow was seated with that group as well.

CDu
01-14-2014, 01:17 PM
A lot of the teams who execute those things well have made those plays the centerpieces of their offense, in other words their offenses are designed to yield those plays and little else (except perhaps three-pointers). Coach K likes to play a more open offense where the players have a lot more freedom, so it's a lot harder to see and connect on the rolls and backdoor cuts to the basket.

Agreed. Teams like Princeton of old and Georgetown run a very specific offense designed to overcome talent deficiencies. But they succeed because they commit to an offense based on those principles. Just like playing zone defense (or man-to-man for that matter), to make that work consistently you have to make that the focus of everything you do.

Duke doesn't do that on offense. Instead, we run a lot of situations. Players work on those situations with the freedom to freelance. That makes us less susceptible to struggles against any particular defense we face (by giving us practice with a greater variety of options), but the tradeoff is that it makes running any particular timing play that much more difficult.