MBB: Duke 69, Virginia 65 -- Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[hurleyfor3]

Thoughts? My brain is blank. (Cue "so what else is new" comments.)

[Edouble]

Way to close out the game. I wanted the ball in 'Sheed's hands down the stretch and he delivered. He was incredible tonight!

[jimrowe0]

Very fortunate there. Should have lost down the stretch, got a couple of fortunate bounces. Cant blow 13 point leads at home.

[roywhite]

Good to win it at the end. That would have been crushing to have lost that game.

Rasheed and Amile --- co-men of the match.

[Les Grossman]

and yikes!

[FerryFor50]

A lot of good in that game...

- great rotation adjustment by K. Kept the guys fresh and the energy levels high.
- Great games by Amile and Sulaimon
- much better defensive effort and stronger on the boards

Some bad:

- Parker still hasn't figured out what ails him
- Cook still making some bad decisions with the ball
- gotta close the game out better. In control all but 3 min of the game. Felt more like clinging to victory. That shouldn't happen at home.

[hurleyfor3]

Can't decide between "nothing new to see here" and "we just saved our season".

[vrob90]

This was better than another loss, but not by much. I wish I felt more optimism about the next couple months, but I don't

[GGLC]

I love Amile. Easily my favorite player on this team. (Andre and Rasheed are second.)

Wow. What a game by him and Sulaimon.

What a clutch game.

[NYBri]

A win is a win, but I don't feel the least bit encouraged. Sorry, when we play that badly down the stretch at home, I shutter to think about March.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

My head is still hurting, dear lord. Way too close but at the end of the day, it was a big win for the team's overall psyche and overall resume. Virginia is a good team and will be playing in the NCAA Tournament.

What was funny is after UVA took the lead 65-64 I was getting ready to post my complete distaste for this team and put the L squarely on Sulaimon's shoulders (giving up the 3pt play, throwing the ball awwy at mid-court, missing a big FT), but WOW was that a big 3.

"Just when I thought you couldnt get any dumber, you go and do something like this...and TOTALLY redeem yourself"

Way to go Rasheed!

[duke09hms]

1. Amile was a beast tonight. 15 rebounds ...
2. Maybe it was a coincidence that UVA's comeback came with Plumlee on the bench. Or maybe it wasn't. Regardless, he didn't do anything that showed he was a liability, and the defense looked tighter with him in the game.
3. Rasheed was clutch, way to break out.
4. Matt Jones did not disappoint. Really liked his intensity, speed, and length on defense.

[Joseph]

Way to close out the game. I wanted the ball in 'Sheed's hands down the stretch and he delivered. He was incredible tonight!

We stole this one. Never should have been in a position to lose. We need more energy too much finesse way too much dribble. Suliamon and Jefferson were warriors.

[CLW]

We simply are not a Top 25 team. The defense was very bad again. Thankfully, UVA missed a TON of point blank shots and then one of the dumbest passes I've seen in a college game in quite some time to save the team from another 10+ point choke job.

107.6 D and -3 on the glass after being up like +5 or so (it felt) after the 1st half. Same issues that probably just aren't going to get fixed this year.

[CoachJ10]

A lot of good in that game...

- great rotation adjustment by K. Kept the guys fresh and the energy levels high.
- Great games by Amile and Sulaimon
- much better defensive effort and stronger on the boards

Some bad:

- Parker still hasn't figured out what ails him
- Cook still making some bad decisions with the ball
- gotta close the game out better. In control all but 3 min of the game. Felt more like clinging to victory. That shouldn't happen at home.

Parker and his teammates need to get him in positions where he can use his talents. He can drive. Get him the ball at the elbow and let him he work. He can post. Spread the offense and get him the ball on the block. He can roll off the pick. Keep drilling it in our guards to look for him on that instead of pounding the ball.

[GGLC]

So, um...did anyone else think that we were a better team this game when Jabari wasn't on the floor?

Cook, Sulaimon, Hood, Jefferson, and either Dawkins or Jones was what I was by far the most comfortable with

Hood needs to stop driving into three players and throwing up a bad shot, though

[jipops]

I think if it weren't for Cook the Cavs would have started their comeback sooner.

The Cameron bounce and Amile's crazy long arms saved us, possibly saves the season. UVA is a good team, but losing like we almost did would have been very difficult to come back from. Plus we would have been staring at .500 or sub .500 as an ACC finish.

Need to go take my heart meds.

[NashvilleDevil]

Think this was a big win and bodes well for the rest of the year. Yes giving up a 13 point lead at home sucks but they responded and won the game. I think this gives them confidence going forward after failing to close out Notre Dame and Clemson. Just need Jabari to find his offense again, I think he's getting frustrated that he's getting beat up down low and not getting the calls.

[downeastdad]

Two words: Amile. Rasheed. But for them........
I really fear for the rest of the season if this is the response to the whooping we took on Saturday. Looked pretty familiar, no penetration, standing around, hoisting threes, lack of defense.

[FerryFor50]

Parker and his teammates need to get him in positions where he can use his talents. He can drive. Get him the ball at the elbow and let him he work. He can post. Spread the offense and get him the ball on the block. He can roll off the pick. Keep drilling it in our guards to look for him on that instead of pounding the ball.

True, but a lot of it falls on Parker. He tends to get lazy on offense and takes bad jumpers.

[gus]

Without the weight of lofty expectations, basketball is fun to watch. It wasn't the prettiest game, and the collapse at the end was tough to watch, but Sheed's shot bouncing in off that that soft rim, and Jefferson fighting for that loose ball (and somehow, implausibly, making that second free throw) -- that's fun to watch.

[vick]

I do want to respond to something from the in-game thread complaining about Plumlee being on the bench during the last few minutes. He is a lifetime 0 for 15 on free throws. It would be coaching malpractice to put a player in the situation where he is, if Tony Bennett isn't a complete fool (and he isn't), going to be hacked and put on the line. No sensible coach is ever going to play someone who can't hit a free throw as the other team is trying to come back, because it's silly to do so.

[GGLC]

Also, Rasheed didn't give up that three-point play to Anderson on the offensive rebound. He didn't even touch him.

[FerryFor50]

I do want to respond to something from the in-game thread complaining about Plumlee being on the bench during the last few minutes. He is a lifetime 0 for 15 on free throws. It would be coaching malpractice to put a player in the situation where he is, if Tony Bennett isn't a complete fool (and he isn't), going to be hacked and put on the line. No sensible coach is ever going to play someone who can't hit a free throw as the other team is trying to come back, because it's silly to do so.

Also, notice that Bennett didn't keep his poor FT shooter (Mitchell) on the court in the same situation.

[rsvman]

Could be my imagination, but it seems like we swelled the lead when the B team was in and shrunk the lead when the A team was in.

Somehow I knew, and predicted at halftime, that K would stop or at least slow down the A/B substitution pattern in the second half ( he always shortens rotations down the stretch of anything--whether it's a season or a game doesn't seem to matter).

I thought the original idea was great and wish he would've stuck to it. The B team FTW!

[GGLC]

Jabari had one really nice play where he found a streaking Amile for an easy layup.

He needs to do that about eight times a game.

[jipops]

Parker is a freshman going through a slump. Nothing more. It's all mental. He'll be totally fine.

[RoyalBlue08]

Parker and his teammates need to get him in positions where he can use his talents. He can drive. Get him the ball at the elbow and let him he work. He can post. Spread the offense and get him the ball on the block. He can roll off the pick. Keep drilling it in our guards to look for him on that instead of pounding the ball.

Parker can do all these things against one defender. But he either is not good at recognizing double and triple teams or thinks he can beat them anyway and ends up forcing a lot of very poor shots (admittedly some go in). The next step for him is clearly to recognize the defense quickly and move the ball to the open man. I hope he figures this out while still at Duke.

[MCFinARL]

A win is a win, but I don't feel the least bit encouraged. Sorry, when we play that badly down the stretch at home, I shutter to think about March.

You feel how you feel--but I actually am somewhat encouraged. Not nearly as much as i would be if the game had ended with 4 minutes to play, but still somewhat encouraged. The team was fighting hard out there tonight. I thought the two lineups added some energy, and the starters didn't seem to run out of gas quite as early in the second half. Rasheed is back, at least for the time being. Some bench players contributed meaningful minutes without the sky falling. When things did go south, they held on and fixed it.

Obviously still a long, long way to go, though.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Why is it that Jabari Parker STILL looks tired and dis-interested? Is it the usual freshman funk??

BUT I'm going to try not to dwell on the negatives, it was a big win.

[miramar]

I still don't know how Rasheed's three dropped (after an air ball no less) or Amile's second FT for that matter, but I'll take it.

Amile got the offensive rebound on Rodney's miss and also made the assist to Rasheed, then on the defensive defensive end tipped the ball away and got the rebound before making the two FTs. Outstanding finish for #21.

But letting UVa outscore Duke 13-1 is disconcerting.

[CoachJ10]

True, but a lot of it falls on Parker. He tends to get lazy on offense and takes bad jumpers.

True. And I am sure the Coaching staff will hound him on that. But...it is also incumbent on his teammates to work to get him the ball so that he's not only getting the ball 25 feet from the hoop. Quin pounds the ball too much. And we never look for the roller on the pick and roll. Our guards need to start dribbling with a purpose (ie driving to the hoop to point pressure on the defense) as well as keeping their eyes aware on the pick and roll.

[NashvilleDevil]

Why is it that Jabari Parker STILL looks tired and dis-interested? Is it the usual freshman funk??

BUT I'm going to try not to dwell on the negatives, it was a big win.

He was extremely enthusiastic at the end of the game when Amile came out. I think he's frustrated that he can't find his offense right now.

[cato]

Without the weight of lofty expectations, basketball is fun to watch. It wasn't the prettiest game, and the collapse at the end was tough to watch, but Sheed's shot bouncing in off that that soft rim, and Jefferson fighting for that loose ball (and somehow, implausibly, making that second free throw) -- that's fun to watch.

Well said. This was a wonderful win, as the celebration on the Duke bench showed. Amile -- so strong.

Expectations can be a difficult thing. Any W from here on out is a good thing. I've adjusted my feelings accordingly.

[duke09hms]

I do want to respond to something from the in-game thread complaining about Plumlee being on the bench during the last few minutes. He is a lifetime 0 for 15 on free throws. It would be coaching malpractice to put a player in the situation where he is, if Tony Bennett isn't a complete fool (and he isn't), going to be hacked and put on the line. No sensible coach is ever going to play someone who can't hit a free throw as the other team is trying to come back, because it's silly to do so.

Hmm I guess that's true. Maybe if he was in toward the start of their comeback before the +13 lead got down to -1 though. Might have helped.

[MCFinARL]

Could be my imagination, but it seems like we swelled the lead when the B team was in and shrunk the lead when the A team was in.

Somehow I knew, and predicted at halftime, that K would stop or at least slow down the A/B substitution pattern in the second half ( he always shortens rotations down the stretch of anything--whether it's a season or a game doesn't seem to matter).

I thought the original idea was great and wish he would've stuck to it. The B team FTW!

That is what it looked like to me, too--thinking the plus/minus for the B team would be better than that for the A team. Would be interesting to know how the game would have played out if he had stuck with the two-team approach.

[OldSchool]

This Duke team is like the NY Knicks of the ACC. At times they almost insist on taking the shots with the highest degree of difficulty. Guys, they don't give extra points on the scoreboard for making harder shots.

[gcashwell]

Plumlee was awesome. I hope he starts making FT's so he can play at the end of games. If K could have kept rotating like he did earlier, duke wins easily.

Both teams played excellent tonight.

Plumlee and Dawkins had the best +/- by a wide margin.

[CoachJ10]

Also, notice that Bennett didn't keep his poor FT shooter (Mitchell) on the court in the same situation.

Mitchell passed the ball quickly at the end, to create that turnover exactly because he didn't want to get fouled. Not sure why he was the guy UVA inbounded to.

[Edouble]

We stole this one. Never should have been in a position to lose. We need more energy too much finesse way too much dribble. Suliamon and Jefferson were warriors.

That's my point. Way to close out the game. Way to not let us lose.

[DBFAN]

Wow, so many people on here saying we shouldn't have won, and we aren't a top 25 team. Did it ever occur to some of you that maybe UVA shouldn't have been in it at the end but some very fortunate Foul calls all night for them kept them close. A game like this can do a lot for a team. They won withoubParker again, and they refused to lose that game. Cheer up folks we just beat a team that was 3-0 coming into the game

[jcastranio]

Jabari, Rodney, and Quinn went 10-30, 5-16 from 3. The rest of the team was 12-19, 5-6 from 3. Shot selection, not really being a part of the team offense. Their defense is too weak to warrant them dominating the shots as much as they are. In addition to the defensive problems, the fool's gold of early season offense has "stunted" our growth as a team on offense. Still time to grow, though.

[kAzE]

That woulda been a double digit loss if we were at their place, so thank goodness for Cameron.

- Sulaimon is clearly more effective off the bench. He looks lost when he's in the game with Parker and Hood at the same time. When he's the #1 option on offense, he plays MUCH better on both ends.
- Jefferson was the player player on the floor for Duke. He was the toughest, smartest, and the best defensive player on either team tonight. 15 rebounds, and the biggest one of the night with the assist to win the game, then the steal and the offensive board to seal it. He was the only guy on the floor who didn't play like crap in the last 3 minutes.
- Parker is having a really tough time adjusting to the increased defensive attention he's getting. He's getting doubled in the post every time he touches it there. Instead of forcing the issue, he's got to find the open teammate. Less stepback 3s would be nice, too. He keeps passing up catch and shoot opportunities for flashy stepback fadeaways. STOP IT. JUST TAKE THE EASY SHOT.
- Hood is the most consistent offensive player on the team. Really glad we have him. He's been the MVP of the 4 ACC games so far.
- I liked the 5 for 5 substitutions. I thought we got the most out of our guys when they were on the court.

[GGLC]

This Duke team is like the NY Knicks of the ACC. At times they almost insist on taking the shots with the highest degree of difficulty. Guys, they don't give extra points on the scoreboard for making harder shots.

Better ball movement (ie, not just around the perimeter) would help with this. Pass it inside!

[GGLC]

I liked the 5 for 5 substitutions also. Maybe Semi for Hairston, though.

[CoachJ10]

Wow, so many people on here saying we shouldn't have won, and we aren't a top 25 team. Did it ever occur to some of you that maybe UVA shouldn't have been in it at the end but some very fortunate Foul calls all night for them kept them close. A game like this can do a lot for a team. They won withoubParker again, and they refused to lose that game. Cheer up folks we just beat a team that was 3-0 coming into the game

Good point on the reffing. The so called emphasis on the holding, grabbing, pulling was supposed to stop teams LIKE Virginia (and Ohio St, Wisco, etc.) from their manhandling. Yet they were able to get away with it all game long and some horrible calls on Duke really kept UVA in this game. It is a dead-horse to me at this point, and no one likes to harp on the refs all the time, but NCAA officials are really just inconsistent and incoherent and really can impact games.

[arnie]

Hmm I guess that's true. Maybe if he was in toward the start of their comeback before the +13 lead got down to -1 though. Might have helped.

Actually during most of the meltdown we were playing 3 guards, Hood and Amile. UVA killed us on the boards- if I recall he didn't put Parker back in to help until the game was essentially tied. When Hood has to play the 4 we can't defend down low or rebound.

[roywhite]

Jabari, Rodney, and Quinn went 10-30, 5-16 from 3. The rest of the team was 12-19, 5-6 from 3. Shot selection, not really being a part of the team offense. Their defense is too weak to warrant them dominating the shots as much as they are. In addition to the defensive problems, the fool's gold of early season offense has "stunted" our growth as a team on offense. Still time to grow, though.

I like that stat, actually. We don't have to rely on the big three for scoring so much.

One quick reflection -- Clemson and UVa are outstanding defensive teams; it's hard to get good quality shots against them. Playing against that caliber of defense helps us realize areas for offensive improvement.

[gcashwell]

Actually during most of the meltdown we were playing 3 guards, Hood and Amile. UVA killed us on the boards- if I recall he didn't put Parker back in to help until the game was essentially tied. When Hood has to play the 4 we can't defend down low or rebound.

When hood or Parker has to play low we can't defend or rebound. That's why Plumlee's +/- was the best tonight.

[CoachJ10]

Actually during most of the meltdown we were playing 3 guards, Hood and Amile. UVA killed us on the boards- if I recall he didn't put Parker back in to help until the game was essentially tied. When Hood has to play the 4 we can't defend down low or rebound.

I was really surprised we didn't go big once we got our double digit lead to try and mitigate their rebounding and driving. Plumlee, Jefferson and Parker at 3,4,5 is our best rebounding group...sure seemed like the right time for it.

[GGLC]

I feel like somewhere along the way Jabari has forgotten how to rebound. He was averaging ~9+ a game for a long stretch for awhile there. What is he averaging over the last four games?

[NashvilleDevil]

Good point on the reffing. The so called emphasis on the holding, grabbing, pulling was supposed to stop teams LIKE Virginia (and Ohio St, Wisco, etc.) from their manhandling. Yet they were able to get away with it all game long and some horrible calls on Duke really kept UVA in this game. It is a dead-horse to me at this point, and no one likes to harp on the refs all the time, but NCAA officials are really just inconsistent and incoherent and really can impact games.

Officiating has been terrible this year. How is Virginia bumping and grabbing Jabari not a foul but Tyler touches a guy it is? Watch in the tourney they start calling it like they did at the beginning of the year.

[Billy Dat]

Good to win it at the end. That would have been crushing to have lost that game.

Rasheed and Amile --- co-men of the match.

THIS. As we set up for the possession that ended with Rasheed's soft bounce 3, I said to myself, "If we lose this game, this team might implode". But, between that Rasheed bounce and Amile's second free throw, and the fact that Harris missed that semi-bunny after Amile weirdly lost the ball on that steal, the basketball gods smiled on us.

Regardless of the near total and epic collapse, hopefully this is a shot in the arm. Maybe Rasheed has totally turned the corner...maybe. After being quiet all game, Cook carried us from 4 minutes left until 2 minutes left until he missed that foul shot and everything started to unravel.

We're just having a weird season. Jones starts, we go A team B team, we get carried by Rasheed despite his being re-demoted to the bench, dogs and cats living together...I don't know...

As hurleyfor3 said, my brain is blank.

[arnie]

Uh, what?

What did TT do that "doomed" us? I saw several poor plays by several players. That was a team collapse that luckily resulted in a win.

You don't remember him falling down, then grabbing the player as he drove down the lane? Yes it was a team collapse, but the others had positive contributions throughout.

[Saratoga2]

We were wondering what adjustments coach K would make. He decided to play two lines in effect. His idea appears to be that the guys were wearing down in the games and would play better if they knew they would get a rest. For most of the game we played hard and well and our defense was very good against a solid team that was on a winning streak. What I liked (a lot)
1. Defensive rotation
2. Amile's great rebounding and excellent defensive play. He also chipped in on offense and sealed the game by making his free throws at the end. (clutch) and also a clutch rebound at the end.
3. Rasheed played great with excellent shooting, aggressive driving. He was not good during closeout with two fouls, a bad turnover and a missed free throw but I am glad for him that he hit the three to put Duke up. It has to help how he feels about himself.
4. I really liked what Marshall did. His size caused UVA problems inside and he blocked one but also batted the ball out to keep Duke alive and I believe Rodney hit a 3 as a result.
5 Matt is good defensively and Quinn came through with some needed scores late.
6. Rodney's defense on Harris slowed him down and he had some important scores.

What I didn't like:
1. Giving up a big lead late. Lot of poor decisions late.
2.Taking the air out of the ball and having a lot of difficultly against a good defense when we initiated our offense with 7 or 8 seconds left.
3. Having a huge disparity with free throws in the first half. We were putting up a lot of threes while they were getting inside enough to get fouled.

Other comments:
1. I didn't notice Semi. Did he get in?
2. Think Rasheed has graduated to the starting team again.

[BlueandWhite]

Parker and his teammates need to get him in positions where he can use his talents. He can drive. Get him the ball at the elbow and let him he work. He can post. Spread the offense and get him the ball on the block. He can roll off the pick. Keep drilling it in our guards to look for him on that instead of pounding the ball.

Thank you Coach J for this post -- 100% agree. The #1 problem with this offense, lack of a post presence, is glaringly obvious, agree that Parker needs to be put in a much better position to score, consistently, game after game.

Defense better tonight but needs more work - way to go Amile.

Still a work in progress, I have hope that this team can make real strides as the season progresses...

[ChicagoCrazy84]

Actually during most of the meltdown we were playing 3 guards, Hood and Amile. UVA killed us on the boards- if I recall he didn't put Parker back in to help until the game was essentially tied. When Hood has to play the 4 we can't defend down low or rebound.

It can be tricky because you want to have your best players on the court at the end (or whoever is playing the best) when it is close. You'd like to have Plumlee or Hairston (I guess) in at the end, but it would've been disaster on the offensive end.

[DBFAN]

Officiating has been terrible this year. How is Virginia bumping and grabbing Jabari not a foul but Tyler touches a guy it is? Watch in the tourney they start calling it like they did at the beginning of the year.

If I recall doesn't the NCAA want 6,002 teams in the tourney now. The easiest way for that to happen is to make these games closer, and make it hard to differentiate between the good, and mediocre squads.

[KandG]

I was actually encouraged by a lot of what I saw prior to the final 5 minutes. Really like the two five man lineups to stagger minutes and shots, even though the 2nd lineup concerned me because Sheed was the only one capable of creating his own shot in that group. (Turns out, he did really well with that five) Defense seemed more attentive, even though there was way too much fouling in the first half. Amile's effort was amazing.

Yes, Virginia missed several good looks, but I thought Duke dictated the game impressively for the majority of the time, and things fell apart late mainly because of a couple of bad breaks & brain lapses, at which point the loss of composure issues that have dogged this team started to kick in. Cook, in particular, even though he didn't shoot well throughout, was mostly restrained until things got tight and he started doing his aimless dribbling routine for 27 seconds or give-the-ball-to-Rodney-to-force-up-a-shot-with-multiple-defenders-late-in-the-shot-clock.

Jabari really should be more of a factor than he has been the last few games -- even if he doesn't score, he needs to be able to slant the defense in some way, instead of having to force things against a good defense like Virginia's or being a last second outlet when Hood can't get a shot off. Thornton has become a near liability with the new rules, especially in late game situations. Can't take charges, can't be physical with opponents, only weakens the team on offense.

Let's hope some rest and more time for the coaching staff to figure things out will eventually righten the ship. Unlike others here, I was largely encouraged by what I saw tonight. Then again, I'm not expecting a championship or even an ACC title from this group. Just a better, more competitive effort from game to game that actually optimizes the talent at hand.

[kAzE]

I like that stat, actually. We don't have to rely on the big three for scoring so much.

One quick reflection -- Clemson and UVa are outstanding defensive teams; it's hard to get good quality shots against them. Playing against that caliber of defense helps us realize areas for offensive improvement.

I wouldn't look too much into that, I'd chalk it up to those guys getting more defensive attention than our other guys, especially Jabari. He's not getting anything close to the type of easy looks he got earlier int he year. I think we're actually a better team when Cook shoots a bit less. He's not the most efficient guy off the dribble, and is better at spotting up and shooting off the catch.

[DBFAN]

I fully believe that when Jabari gets out of this slump, this team is gonna benefit greatly from learning how to win this game

[MCFinARL]

I feel like somewhere along the way Jabari has forgotten how to rebound. He was averaging ~9+ a game for a long stretch for awhile there. What is he averaging over the last four games?

Averaging 5 per game. Notre Dame--4 Georgia Tech--6 Clemson--7 Virginia--3

[flyingdutchdevil]

I like that stat, actually. We don't have to rely on the big three for scoring so much.

One quick reflection -- Clemson and UVa are outstanding defensive teams; it's hard to get good quality shots against them. Playing against that caliber of defense helps us realize areas for offensive improvement.

We don't need much offensive improvement. As a matter of fact, I'd hope Coach K never focuses on O until our D is no longer sub-par. D, D, and more D.

[sporthenry]

I agree with some sentiments that a loss there could have possibly sent this team into a tailspin. While it was nice to see everyone happy for everyone else at the end, I hope K focuses them on the ending. I guess this team needed some good vibes and they get that with the win but that ending can't happen.

I also don't understand why Hood and Parker settle for so many 3's. Game is supposed to reward driving now yet Jabari especially seems hesitant to drive. I'm sick of that stepback 3 especially early in the shot clock. You can get that any time. Why not drive and just barrel into people b/c apparently charges are nonexistent.

[NashvilleDevil]

I agree with some sentiments that a loss there could have possibly sent this team into a tailspin. While it was nice to see everyone happy for everyone else at the end, I hope K focuses them on the ending. I guess this team needed some good vibes and they get that with the win but that ending can't happen.

I also don't understand why Hood and Parker settle for so many 3's. Game is supposed to reward driving now yet Jabari especially seems hesitant to drive. I'm sick of that stepback 3 especially early in the shot clock. You can get that any time. Why not drive and just barrel into people b/c apparently charges are nonexistent.

He's hesitant to drive because he hasn't gotten a call in two months. Refs are letting them play more now then they did in October and November. I don't think teams have adjusted how they play either. I think teams that play like UVA, Ohio St and Wisconsin decided they would continue to play the way they normally do and force the refs to call and so far the refs have not done that.

[roywhite]

Nice stretch coming up -- no game until Saturday, no travel, semester just starting -- perfect occason for some good practice time to digest these past few games, and make improvements.

[throatybeard]

Jefferson's rebounding is soup that eats like Amile.

[dairedevil]

Always happy to come away with a win, but I gotta admit that this team puzzles me. There is a lot of talent, but something is lacking, and I can't quite put my finger on it. There have been a lot of folks analyzing, and I'm sure that I don't know enough to add anything much to that discussion about youth, communication, substitutions, stall ball, Plumlee, bad playmaking decisions, zone, etc.....

Except... I don't know that anyone has taken on the fiery leadership role, exhorting the team to play together, play hard. Perhaps it is because the captains aren't stars and command the respect, or don't take on that role.. I think of Laettner, Battier, James, Singler and others laying it all out on the floor, game after game and pushing the rest of the team to follow their lead. And never, ever giving up, even when nothing seems to be going right.

So, It made me glad to see the fire and enthusiasm that the boys had tonight. I don't know if any player was the instigator, but I hope that it continues.

[jipops]

We simply are not a Top 25 team. The defense was very bad again. Thankfully, UVA missed a TON of point blank shots and then one of the dumbest passes I've seen in a college game in quite some time to save the team from another 10+ point choke job.

107.6 D and -3 on the glass after being up like +5 or so (it felt) after the 1st half. Same issues that probably just aren't going to get fixed this year.

We won. Cherish it.

[hurleyfor3]

Jefferson's rebounding is soup that eats like Amile.

You were saving that, weren't you. Jim Nantz's puns are more spontaneous.

[arnie]

Jefferson's rebounding is soup that eats like Amile.

He has become the Man. By the time he's a senior (or maybe next year) when he adds another 10-20 pounds, he could be best rebounder the league.

[Bluealum]

A lot of good in that game...

- great rotation adjustment by K. Kept the guys fresh and the energy levels high.
- Great games by Amile and Sulaimon
- much better defensive effort and stronger on the boards

Some bad:

- Parker still hasn't figured out what ails him
- Cook still making some bad decisions with the ball
- gotta close the game out better. In control all but 3 min of the game. Felt more like clinging to victory. That shouldn't happen at home.

Using a two team rotation for most teams would seem silly when these are young men that can play basketball for long stretches without significantly tiring, it would just keep your best players off the court for valuable minutes. On this team however, I am not at all sure who the most valuable players are.... and we can really expend full defensive effort and concentration with frequent substitutions. It also makes us hard to prepare for.

Right now, it appears that Amile and Rodney are the most consistent and Rasheed is coming on in terms of a 2 way effort. That is it. Jabari's defense in the post is woeful but his offense can at times be sublime and is sure to return. Quinn's decision making is suspect and often gets beaten at the point of attack, but he can pass and manufacture shots like no one else. Andre's shooting can be otherworldly and his defense has really picked up, but he can still at times completely loose focus on his man on D and he can miss in bunches when off. Tyler is a defensive pest and a leader but makes bad decisions at times and is not an offensive threat. Josh has great positioning and rotations, but gets surprisingly few rebounds and is an offensive liability. Matt, Marshall, and Semi have all shown glimpses in short minutes but you have to believe they have greater limitations at this point than the 8 regulars since the coaching staff has given them less playing time.

With so much talent, and so few players that truly stand out on both sides of the ball, using our depth to apply maximum defensive pressure seems like a really effective strategy and gives us an advantage over other teams in a 40 minute game. I hope we continue to do this over the course of the season. At this point the only two players that seem to consistently earn the expectation of over 20 minutes a game of PT are Amile and Rodney, but there are a lot of great pieces that could make for a really deep and fresh team. Kudos to K for once again thinking outside the box. Hope that continues.

PS - I cannot imagine the fan meltdown and subsequent K frustration of 'expectations' at Duke if Rasheed's shot had not fallen. Thank heavens, and bravo to Amile for his energy tonight!

[kAzE]

I think Jones in the starting lineup is a good move. He's probably the best perimeter defender on the team, which is kind of unbelievable, but probably true. He's the one guy who actually can stay in front of his man. I think Sulaimon needs to come off the bench for his own good. He's way more effective when he's the first option. Liken it to how the OKC Thunder used Thabo Sefolosha as the starter, with James Harden (now Reggie Jackson, when Westbrook is healthy) off the bench as the #1 guy on the second unit.

Popint is, I think Jones should stay in the starting lineup. He's also got an uncanny knack at getting to the foul stripe. By my calculations, he makes more free throws per minute played than anyone else on the team. Easy points are nice.

[throatybeard]

You were saving that, weren't you. Jim Nantz's puns are more spontaneous.

I swear to God it sounded funnier in my head.

[DBFAN]

@laurakeeley: Woah. K says he hasn't been at his best since Xmas (brother's death implied). Says that's on him to be better. Very personal

[GGLC]

I think Jones in the starting lineup is a good move. He's probably the best perimeter defender on the team, which is kind of unbelievable, but probably true. He's the one guy who actually can stay in front of his man. I think Sulaimon needs to come off the bench for his own good. He's way more effective when he's the first option. Liken it to how the OKC Thunder used Thabo Sefolosha as the starter, with James Harden (now Reggie Jackson, when Westbrook is healthy) off the bench as the #1 guy on the second unit.

Popint is, I think Jones should stay in the starting lineup. He's also got an uncanny knack at getting to the foul stripe. By my calculations, he makes more free throws per minute played than anyone else on the team. Easy points are nice.

I completely agree with this.

[dukelifer]

A big win. Some very good moments and 2.5 bad minutes that almost killed an entire fan base. Still Sheed hit the shot- lucky as it was- and Amile- was just a force on the boards. So happy he hit those pressure throws. Not sure what we saw can translate to an away game- but baby steps. Much more inside scoring- much more passing. But if this team is going to win on the road- they need to be able to score the ball with a lead and get easy buckets. No great drivers on this team. It is an issue. Duke has given up leads a lot- that is beginning to be their MO. They need to figure this out.

[wsb3]

Relief more than anything. I just wish they would have put them away. But I will take it.

On another note I was expecting us to fall out of the rankings and I was curious when would be the last time Duke UNC neither one was ranked.

N&O had it up "Had the Blue Devils fallen out of the top 25, it would have been the first time since the Dec. 28, 1982 poll that Duke and North Carolina were unranked at the same time."

I think one of the most amazing stats in the rivalry is that it was 1955 since they played each other and neither was ranked. I realize I am one of the older people on here but that even out dates me.

[roywhite]

@laurakeeley: Woah. K says he hasn't been at his best since Xmas (brother's death implied). Says that's on him to be better. Very personal

He didn't look real healthy on TV. Pale and tired looking.

Bless you, Coach K. Hope your family and your Duke family can help you through this stretch.

[Saratoga2]

One additional thought. For all you older guys, Amile reminds me of a young Cornbread Maxwell who played for the Celtics in the old days. Same long slim sort of guy who is cute around the basket and always seems to be in the right position to rebound. He will only get better as he gains experience and strength.

[NashvilleDevil]

Reading tweets of K's press conference he appeared to really open up and has put the blame for the start of the ACC season squarely on him and it's on him to be better for the team.

[nyesq83]

K said on the radio interview post-game that the assistants urged him to play more guys so that everyone would go all-out, and he agreed to do it.

[_Gary]

One additional thought. For all you older guys, Amile reminds me of a young Cornbread Maxwell who played for the Celtics in the old days. Same long slim sort of guy who is cute around the basket and always seems to be in the right position to rebound. He will only get better as he gains experience and strength.

Ah, excellent blast from the past comparison! I concur!!

[azzefkram]

Wow, I'm glad we won or else oodles of people would be looking for some high buildings to jump off of. I was immensely encouraged by tonight's effort. We bent but didn't break. Were some bad plays made down the stretch? Yep, but the 2nd ranked D will do that to you. I loved the line change substitutions and I hope it's not a one game thing. We got positive minutes from everyone who played.

I had two minor quibbles about tonight's game. One, why go away from the substitution pattern when it was working so well? Two, given how tough Virginia is in the half court why didn't we try to run more?

I can be a debbie downer with the best of them, but for the life of me I don't get how people can be so down on this win. We led for all but about 20 seconds. We beat Kenpom's 16th ranked team. It's our best win of the season.

[throatybeard]

@laurakeeley: Woah. K says he hasn't been at his best since Xmas (brother's death implied). Says that's on him to be better. Very personal

I've been thinking about this too. I've seen the phrase "one of K's worst coaching job's ever" thrown around on the web. Jeez, have some compassion.

[Furniture]

I think that Team TT did very well. I will probably get hammered for this but I think I prefer the way Tyler ran the point to Cook.

[Duvall]

I've been thinking about this too. I've seen the phrase "one of K's worst coaching job's ever" thrown around on the web. Jeez, have some compassion.

To be fair, fans are an unfortunate blight on sports, and should be generally ignored.

[greybeard]

True, but a lot of it falls on Parker. He tends to get lazy on offense and takes bad jumpers.

He is going against Men, guys 3-4 years older, they are tough people and strong and when he fights his way clear to catch within 15 feet, there is at least one help and a shade defender, giving him very little room to operate. They are then taking away most all easy 3-looks, and were all over Duke's exterior players making well timed and placed entry passes extremely difficult. You end up with bad shots. but Duke needs him to score, and he made a couple or three incredible baskets.

[roywhite]

Coach K after Duke 69 Virginia 65 (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/newreply.php?p=694278&noquote=1)

Very proud of team and shares some personal reflections.

[dukeblue6661]

I know lots of people are calling for more PT for Marshall, but he had one rebound in 12 minutes of action. His defense did help in the middle but a rebound rate of 3.33/40min is nothing compared to Amile's 21.43/40min.

[greybeard]

Playing 10 guys, how great is that. You come to Duke, love being on the team even if you get no playing time to speak of, and the coach knows you can play. I think that this was one of the Finest Basketball games that I've seen, ever! MOTM. That's easy, K.

[OldSchool]

Better ball movement (ie, not just around the perimeter) would help with this. Pass it inside!

A couple of really nice plays in the first half were:

1. at about the 8:00 mark, Jabari throws a really great pass just past Amile's defender, Amile handles the pass well and takes it right to rim.

2. at the 6:53 mark, Quinn hits Amile with a similar pass as Amile cut to the hoop and Amile got an and-one.

With this team, we don't have the personnel to have a big man seal his defender and then bounce an entry pass to him, at least not against a team with size. But with Jabari and Amile we can certainly do a better job with screening and cutting to get a big involved at the rim and keep the defense honest.

[bbosbbos]

I thought we gonna lost all the remaining acc games. So any win is a surprise and sweet.

[ricks68]

Thoughts? My brain is blank. (Cue "so what else is new" comments.)

'cue? did someone say 'cue?

ricks

[gcashwell]

I know lots of people are calling for more PT for Marshall, but he had one rebound in 12 minutes of action. His defense did help in the middle but a rebound rate of 3.33/40min is nothing compared to Amile's 21.43/40min.
He allowed his teammates to get rebounds and he clogged up the middle on D. He had the highest +/- on the team.

[devildeac]

I think if it weren't for Cook the Cavs would have started their comeback sooner.

The Cameron bounce and Amile's crazy long arms saved us, possibly saves the season. UVA is a good team, but losing like we almost did would have been very difficult to come back from. Plus we would have been staring at .500 or sub .500 as an ACC finish.

Need to go take my heart meds.

And call me in the AM. It's a local call;).

[Furniture]

He allowed his teammates to get rebounds and he clogged up the middle on D. He had the highest +/- on the team.

I have to concur. I also think he should be credited with a offensive rebound that Sheed scored a 3 from. All in all I think he really disrupted their offense and they didn't score. I predict that the coaching staff analyze the tapes and from now on he gets this number of minutes....

[Newton_14]

You feel how you feel--but I actually am somewhat encouraged. Not nearly as much as i would be if the game had ended with 4 minutes to play, but still somewhat encouraged. The team was fighting hard out there tonight. I thought the two lineups added some energy, and the starters didn't seem to run out of gas quite as early in the second half. Rasheed is back, at least for the time being. Some bench players contributed meaningful minutes without the sky falling. When things did go south, they held on and fixed it.

Obviously still a long, long way to go, though.
Glad at least one person watched the same game I did. First UVA is a darn good conference team, who came in hot. They play physiccal as hell, bump you, grab you, hold you, push you, and in the case of Joe Harris (about 6 times tonight) just flatout run into and hit you like a linebacker hitting a wide receiver. Yet somehow they had 5 team fouls at the half and we had 12. UVA scored 28 points on only 7 made FG in the first half. Many of those 12 were petty touch fouls. We could have easily been up 15 at the half were it not for the very odd, idiotic foul discrepancy.

But back to your point. The guys played one heck of a game against a brutally physical team, and maintained an 8 to 13 point lead up until the last few minutes. They then missed a few shots, had a bad turnover that led to a runout, and UVA got 6 points in very odd ways. One was Anderson (terrible shooter) hitting a fall away 3 with a hand in his face and the shotclock running out, and the other when Anderson again, jumps over Rasheed for a putback and gets a free throw simply because he landed awkwardly. Those two plays combined with Rasheed's bad TO gave them 8 of the 11 straight points. Yeah it would have been nice to not have those plays and close them out maintaining the comfy lead, but down the road they may be better served by having to recover from losing the lead, and still pull out the win with toughness anyway. Rasheed hitting the 3 with the game on the line, Amile fighting off two football tackles by Harris to stop him from scoring and finally securing the rebound, then hitting two clutch free throws. Growing up moments for both Sophomore's. Had we closed the game out easily, those plays never happen, and those two moments of growth never happen for either kid.

People need to stop being so freaking negative and freaking spoiled. Like RoyWhite and Jipops stated, had they lost after playing so well for 37 minutes, it may very well have broken their will. Instead of giving up and losing, they fought back and got the win. Now they have to learn from the win and put the lessons of playing hard for 40 minutes into action moving forward. They now know they have to play hard and fight all of the time, not just some of the time. It's one thing to hear coaches tell you that, it's another thing altogether to figure it out on your own.

[kAzE]

He allowed his teammates to get rebounds and he clogged up the middle on D. He had the highest +/- on the team.

Yeah I seem to remember a number of shots that he altered in addition to his 1 block. He was caught out of position one time on a switch off an inbounds play, but other than that, I thought he played well. He's a worthy backup for Amile, but we can't really afford to have both of those guys on the court at the same time (obviously for offensive purposes). I think 12 minutes a game for MP3 is just about right.

[nmduke2001]

likes
Sheed's first 35 minutes
Full court pressure
Amile
Cook's five minute spurt
Lots of guys getting PT

dislikes
Jabari's shot selection
Slow offense
Lack of focus at the end
Tyler's foul on Mitchell. It was deliberate and flagrant. Mitchell could have been seriously hurt. There is no place for that sort of play in basketball.

[CALVET]

I know lots of people are calling for more PT for Marshall, but he had one rebound in 12 minutes of action. His defense did help in the middle but a rebound rate of 3.33/40min is nothing compared to Amile's 21.43/40min.


By that logic Semi, who got 2 rebounds in 2 minutes, should be playing more than Amile.

[azzefkram]

Cook still making some bad decisions with the ball


Quinn's decision making is suspect


I think that Team TT did very well. I will probably get hammered for this but I think I prefer the way Tyler ran the point to Cook.

Puhlease. Cook is averaging less than 2 TOs a game and has a 3:1 A/TO. He's averaging 35mpg at the point guard for the 2nd ranked O.

[devildeac]

K said on the radio interview post-game that the assistants urged him to play more guys so that everyone would go all-out, and he agreed to do it.

He also credited the other coaches who suggested running more motion offense so everyone playing would feel involved in the game. Credited his players for fighting tonight.

[Duvall]

By that logic Semi, who got 2 rebounds in 2 minutes, should be playing more than Amile.

Yeah, this might just be rock bottom.

[kAzE]

Puhlease. Cook is averaging less than 2 TOs a game and has a 3:1 A/TO. He's averaging 35mpg at the point guard for the 2nd ranked O.

You're right, but they are also right. He does a good job taking care of the ball and finding his teammates, but he's an inefficient scorer and often takes bad shots. I believe we're a better team when Cook shoots less. He's a good catch and shoot player, but is pretty mediocre off the bounce.

[Duvall]

You're right, but they are also right. He does a good job taking care of the ball and finding his teammates, but he's an inefficient scorer...

Well, unless you look at the efficiency with which he scores the ball.

[kAzE]

Well, unless you look at the efficiency with which he scores the ball.

He shoots 44% from the floor, which (while pretty decent) is still just 7th out of the top 8 players in the rotation, and if you take out catch and shoot baskets, that percentage probably drops below 40%. He shoots the most 3s on the team but at 35%, is shooting the lowest percentage from beyond the arc of anyone who has shot 15 or more 3s (6 players). Each of the 5 other players who have attempted 15 or more is above 40%, even Sulaimon, who is at 42%. Cook is fine, he's a good point guard, one of the best in the ACC (at least on offense), I'm not saying bench Cook, but you can't accurately describe him as an efficient shooter. He's okay, but our other guys are more efficient.

[ChrisP]

First of all - and I respect the many knowledgeable fans on this board - but if you really want to get the straight scoop, just go listen to K's post game pressers. One of the main things I hate about road games is that they don't upload the post game stuff on GoDuke.com.

But anyway, K made a real effort to place the blame for the team's recent poor play squarely on himself (due to his being "knocked back" as he said) since Dec. 26. I certainly don't know Coach personally, but I really had wondered to what extent his brother's death had affected him. Well, apparently, according to the man himself - it's affected him greatly. I also heard for the first time tonight on the ESPN broadcast tonight, that Bill K's death was "unexpected". So, that event was a big, big deal folks. Let's all try to remember that before posting stuff like, "One of K's worst coaching jobs". I do think there's something to the idea that K hasn't been at his best lately, but I feel for him and hope things get better for him personally as he goes through the grieving process.

Having said all that, I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED the heart and effort tonight. Reading this thread, I swear I'm not sure I watched the same game some other posters did, but the Duke TEAM that showed up tonight really made me happy and proud. Amile was just amazing on a bunch of levels - as was Rasheed.

One final thought, I know this is a fan message board and heck, I can be pretty negative and critical myself, but I really wish people would stop ragging on TT and Josh. They bust their butts whenever they're on the court and really seem to give it their all every minute they're in a game. They're not the most talented players on the team, but I'd take 100 Tylers and Josh's any day of the week. And I want to make one specific point about Thornton - yes he fouls a lot (and especially for a senior) BUT, I would guess that 90% of the time, Tyler gets his money's worth. In other words, if his man is going to the hoop, you can bet that TT will foul him hard enough to make sure there's no "And 1". When guys do some silly slap on the arm as their man is dunking the ball, it drives me NUTS! Tyler is smarter than that, so cut the kid some slack, huh?

[Dukehky]

I think I said, no more than a week ago, that I would pretty much eat a sock if Marshall and Josh played on the floor together... Actually I said I would send all my Star Wars action figures to somebody except Boba Fet if that happened. Well, I would have, but I can't find them, except for of course, the Fet man who has a place of honor in my room.

I was shocked to see the hockey line changes, but I really liked it.

Now, somebody said they thought Thornton was more effective than Cook tonight. Wow, I really could not disagree more. I get the impression that Tyler feels like he needs to be a big tough guy, which this team probably needs, but he hasn't been doing it the same way as in the past, where he comes in for spells and gets a little chippy. He gives bad fouls at bad times because he gambles on defense. I think that if Jones continues to improve, or even plays exactly like he did tonight, that Thornton's minutes should drop substantially. Cook's offense was all we had in the last few minutes, and he made some mistakes, but his teammates didn't exactly help that out a whole lot.

I thought it was a great game until the last 3 minutes, obviously. Quinn can't continue to pressure the ball 40 feet from the hoop. I like the aggressive mindset on defense, but he is just not capable of controlling the ball handler, he got torched frequently. They missed a lot of point blank shots that were a direct result of the poor ball containment. The rotation defense was better tonight, but still not good enough to offset the inability to keep the ball in front of them. God I sound like Seth Greenberg, but it's not exactly the most difficult thing in the world to see.

We won a tight game, which we haven't done before, and UVA was a preseason ranked team. This was a good win. We had them beat badly for long stretches of the game. Young teams need to learn to close, and this was a step in the right direction. I'm still looking okay with my 16-2 prediction. Go me, even if I was wrong on a ton of other things like Marshall and Josh playing together. I really can't believe that happened, and the fact that it was effective is still throwing me for a bit of a loop.

[Troublemaker]

I got chills watching Coach K's postgame presser: http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=3160176&db_oem_id=4200

I love that man so much. I love this team so much. We are such a tightly knit team and program.

Great win, a springboard type game.

My only regret is not picking 16-2 in the ACC Prediction thread

[duke09hms]

Yeah I seem to remember a number of shots that he altered in addition to his 1 block. He was caught out of position one time on a switch off an inbounds play, but other than that, I thought he played well. He's a worthy backup for Amile, but we can't really afford to have both of those guys on the court at the same time (obviously for offensive purposes). I think 12 minutes a game for MP3 is just about right.

I agree. I don't think we should see Amile and Marshall at the same time, but between them, we should have our answer at the 5 position. Don't see why Amile for 25 and Marshall for 15 at the 5 couldn't happen eventually. For us to maximize our ceiling, we should try to keep Jabari from guarding the other team's biggest bruiser.

1-2: Quinn, Tyler, Rasheed, Dawkins, Jones
3-4: Jabari, Rodney, Josh
5: Marshall, Amile

If we put in our small lineup with Sheed, Andre, Jones at the 3, I think it's imperative that Amile or Marshall is at the 5. Obviously this means one of Jabari/Rodney is out for a rest, meaning we only see it for ~10 mpg, which seems ideal from a defensive muscle/rebounding perspective.

[FerryFor50]

Puhlease. Cook is averaging less than 2 TOs a game and has a 3:1 A/TO. He's averaging 35mpg at the point guard for the 2nd ranked O.

You can make bad decisions and not turn the ball over. Like, dribbling and dribbling and not moving the ball. Or forcing up bad, contested shots. Or missing open teammates.

He takes care of the ball, but also doesn't make the best decisions when he has it.

[Duvall]

He shoots 44% from the floor, which (while pretty decent) is still just 7th out of the top 8 players in the rotation, and if you take out catch and shoot baskets, that percentage probably drops below 40%. He shoots the most 3s on the team but at 35%, is shooting the lowest percentage from beyond the arc of anyone who has shot 15 or more 3s. Everyone else who has attempted 15 or more is above 40%. He's fine, he's a good point guard, one of the best in the ACC (at least on offense), I'm not saying bench Cook, but you can't accurately describe him as an efficient shooter. He's okay, but our other guys are more efficient.

Well, put aside the fact that Hood, Dawkins and (until recently) Parker have been posting absurd shooting numbers. So comparisons there aren't exactly helpful.

Even after Cook's mini-slump he's still hitting 52% from two and 35% from three, and converting well from the FT line. He's capable of better, especially from three, but that's not *in*efficient scoring.

[devil84]

On the ride home from the game, I was thinking how DBR must be euphoric. I mean, all 11 recruited players played in the first 10 minutes of the game in a novel platoon substitution pattern, Plumlee got more playing time, Hairston and Thornton got less playing time, we played much better defense particularly in the first half, some bounces didn't go our way at all for a stretch but we hung on, and Amile -- the worst free throw shooter in the league* -- steps up and sinks his two free throws. We beat a 3-0 team coming off a fantastic win.

This is what DBR has been clamoring for, right? So everyone has to be over the moon, right?

The team leaves the court jubilantly high-fiving/pushing each other, something I haven't seen in a long time. Even Coach K uncharacteristically ran over and leaped on Wojo, giving him a bear hug! The post-game radio show interview featured a very happy Coach K praising the UVA team and really excited about the performance of his Duke team. Rasheed was interviewed -- SO happy, so impressed with Amile's play, the platoon substitution keeping fresh legs, the teamwork, improved D. He noted the team wound up ripping Amile's jersey during the celebration. Surely DBR will be celebrating, right?

Then I read this thread.

WOW. Apparently I watched a different game, perhaps in a parallel universe. I'm going to stop reading DBR tonight and go back to the wonderful feeling of seeing a team that was really excited about winning a game as a team, with some very different strategies employed in about a one-hour practice (per Coach K's radio interview). That's impressive, IMHO.

Coach K did not mention his coaching or personal situation in the post-game interview on the radio. However, it looks like he did to the media and must have opened up. Having met Bill Krzyzewski and his family and seeing first-hand for four years how close Coach is to his family, the loss of his brother has to be absolutely devastating to him. I think this has more of an impact on the team's performance than most people think. I saw this game as a one where a lot of issues on many different levels have been overcome, together as a team, allowing them to move on to another level. I'm very encouraged. I'm going to bed before anyone else can drag me down.


* Minimums FT/game to make it on that list -- I know, Plumlee is 0-for-career. But Marshall hasn't taken enough to make that list.

[Gmadaduke]

As horrible as the last few minutes were, I come away from tonight's game with a very hopeful feeling.

Takeaways:
For this team to win, they need to play as a team - 8, 9, 10 guys deep. They have the bench to do it. Plumlee was a great stand in, not a liability. Jefferson stepped up. Sulaimon showed confidence. Jones contributed. Good stuff.

Parker needs to learn to be a team player. I haven't studied his box scores from the past few games, but I think (maybe?) his shots were down a little tonight. Either way, as talented as he is, he needs to understand that he's not going to impress anyone without a supporting cast, and maybe, in some cases, being a supporting actor himself. Gotta stop forcing shots.

Toughness. I actually think that giving up the lead and having to claw back late (admittedly with a few lucky bounces) will help this team. They didn't fold. They dug in, fought for the loose balls, made things chaotic, and pulled it out. Ugly as heck, but baby steps - like drinking water and eating rice after a bad stomach ache. We're on the mend.

Just got to work on keeping the focus for the full 40 minutes.

If Sulaimon starts playing like he did tonight, Parker can accept being less greedy with the ball, and we can get tougher and more focused, I'm optimistic about what this team can do.

[Gmadaduke]

PS - devil84, I'm right there with you. Done for the night. This board is bringing me down.

[azzefkram]

You can make bad decisions and not turn the ball over. Like, dribbling and dribbling and not moving the ball. Or forcing up bad, contested shots. Or missing open teammates.

He takes care of the ball, but also doesn't make the best decisions when he has it.

Except that he doesn't dribble and dribble and not move the ball. If he did, his USG% would be much higher. Can he force up a bad shot? Yeah but they aren't as frequent as Jabari's, or Rodney's, or Sheed's. I do wish he'd take fewer threes. Every point guard misses open teammates. Considering that our A% is the highest it's been since 2006 and Quinn is getting the lion's share of them, I don't think he's missing too many.

[Troublemaker]

PS - devil84, I'm right there with you. Done for the night. This board is bringing me down.

Yes, thank you devil84 for providing some sanity!

Sheesh! I retract what I wrote previously in the Clemson postgame thread about the new posters that popped up after that loss. Please do NOT post after wins.

[Rudy]

My only regret is not picking 16-2 in the ACC Prediction thread

So nice to be optimistic. So you think this team will beat Syracuse twice in the regular season?

Good effort by a lot of guys, especially Sulaimon. They stood up to the pressure and didn't crack. That should give them some confidence.

[kAzE]

Well, put aside the fact that Hood, Dawkins and (until recently) Parker have been posting absurd shooting numbers. So comparisons there aren't exactly helpful.

Even after Cook's mini-slump he's still hitting 52% from two and 35% from three, and converting well from the FT line. He's capable of better, especially from three, but that's not *in*efficient scoring.

Okay, perhaps I misspoke. He's not "inefficient," just not AS efficient as everyone else. Like I said, he's 7th out the top 8 players on the rotation for FG%. But he has 2 NBA lottery picks on the floor with him, and still sometimes decides to take a pull up 3 with 32 seconds left on the shot clock. That's why people are saying he makes bad decisions. The 3:1 A/T ratio is great, he just needs to shoot a little bit less.

[burnspbesq]

You can make bad decisions and not turn the ball over. Like, dribbling and dribbling and not moving the ball. Or forcing up bad, contested shots. Or missing open teammates.

He takes care of the ball, but also doesn't make the best decisions when he has it.

This. The way Virginia was aggressively blowing up high screens and dribble handoffs, Quinn could have had 20 assists by getting the ball out of his hands more quickly.

[MCFinARL]

likes
Sheed's first 35 minutes
Full court pressure
Amile
Cook's five minute spurt
Lots of guys getting PT

dislikes
Jabari's shot selection
Slow offense
Lack of focus at the end
Tyler's foul on Mitchell. It was deliberate and flagrant. Mitchell could have been seriously hurt. There is no place for that sort of play in basketball.

I don't know about this--on the replay, it looked like Tyler's original foul was a pretty standard foul on the arm--probably intentional, to keep him from making the shot, but not nearly strong enough to knock Mitchell down--after the foul, it looked like Mitchell sort of pushed against Tyler to shake him off, and like that was what actually caused him to fall, not the original foul. But I haven't gone back to look at it again, so I could be wrong.

[KandG]

Think Rasheed has graduated to the starting team again.

I hope not. I think he's better when he's a primary option and not fighting for touches with other ball-dominant guys. Seems to make poorer decisions when he's with Cook, Hood and Parker, at least at the start of games. I'd love to see Jones continue to start in the short term.

[greybeard]

Okay, perhaps I misspoke. He's not "inefficient," just not AS efficient as everyone else. Like I said, he's 7th out the top 8 players on the rotation for FG%. But he has 2 NBA lottery picks on the floor with him, and still sometimes decides to take a pull up 3 with 32 seconds left on the shot clock. That's why people are saying he makes bad decisions. The 3:1 A/T ratio is great, he just needs to shoot a little bit less.

I forget, didn't he score 7 straight the last few minutes, that would be 7 with no one scoring in between, a three and two ridiculous drives to the basket, that tore through UVa's defense, as if it hadn't had the middle locked down all night. The guy has been playing 35 plus minutes a game, all season until this game.

Makes horse races I suppose.

[dukepsy1963]

It felt kinda like a loss to me.
I will be at the State -Duke on Saturday, but whereas in the past I was never worried in Cameron (or its been a long, long time anyway...:)), I am now. It's a long drive back home (mountains) and it will be longer if my boys don't "get down" a little better. We are Duke guys!!!

[Kedsy]

We were wondering what adjustments coach K would make. He decided to play two lines in effect.

Kind of funny, if you think about it. After all the angst and supposition about the changes to come, Coach K came up with something none of us even dreamed of. The big question is whether we'll continue the two line thing in future games.


- Sulaimon is clearly more effective off the bench. He looks lost when he's in the game with Parker and Hood at the same time. When he's the #1 option on offense, he plays MUCH better on both ends.

Totally agree with this. Rasheed has been lost on offense all year because Rodney and Jabari are playing the role in which Rasheed is most comfortable. Playing on an NBA-style second unit, Rasheed can do what he does best.


2. Think Rasheed has graduated to the starting team again.

I hope not, at least as long as we continue to play two lines. Rasheed is clearly better when he's the number one slashing option.


1. I didn't notice Semi. Did he get in?

He played a couple minutes. On one of the line changes, he came in instead of Josh.


[Amile] has become the Man. By the time he's a senior (or maybe next year) when he adds another 10-20 pounds, he could be best rebounder the league.

Based on rebounding percentage, he's the best rebounder in the league right now.


I can be a debbie downer with the best of them, but for the life of me I don't get how people can be so down on this win. We led for all but about 20 seconds. We beat Kenpom's 16th ranked team. It's our best win of the season.

Well said. This was a good win. It was just what the team needed.

[Kedsy]

I know lots of people are calling for more PT for Marshall, but he had one rebound in 12 minutes of action. His defense did help in the middle but a rebound rate of 3.33/40min is nothing compared to Amile's 21.43/40min.


I was really surprised we didn't go big once we got our double digit lead to try and mitigate their rebounding and driving. Plumlee, Jefferson and Parker at 3,4,5 is our best rebounding group...sure seemed like the right time for it.

Based on defensive rebounding percentage, Amile, Jabari, and anybody on the team (other than Josh or Matt) is a better rebounding group than any group involving Marshall. I know he's 7 foot tall, but he has been poor at defensive rebounding all season, and tonight was no different (as dukeblue6661 pointed out).


He allowed his teammates to get rebounds and he clogged up the middle on D. He had the highest +/- on the team.

It's an easy claim to say Marshall allowed his teammates to get rebounds, but I'm not sure it's true. His boxing out didn't seem so superb to me. Really, no better than Josh in that department.

Also, putting aside that one-game plus/minus is generally considered a useless stat, when you're substituting 5 at a time, there's no way you can give plus/minus credit to any one of the five subs. Marshall played reasonably well tonight, but he didn't show me anything that suggests he should be playing more minutes.

[hustleplays]

I agree with some sentiments that a loss there could have possibly sent this team into a tailspin. While it was nice to see everyone happy for everyone else at the end, I hope K focuses them on the ending. I guess this team needed some good vibes and they get that with the win but that ending can't happen.

I also don't understand why Hood and Parker settle for so many 3's. Game is supposed to reward driving now yet Jabari especially seems hesitant to drive. I'm sick of that stepback 3 especially early in the shot clock. You can get that any time. Why not drive and just barrel into people b/c apparently charges are nonexistent.

IMO, Jabari is still adjusting to much better defense than he is used to. Can't drive so easily against single coverage, and good ACC defenses help double better. When he is stopped, he shoots. i don't think he's comfortable and skilled yet at dishing, kicking out. He will probably learn.

I like Hood shooting 3's, to a certain extent, because he's proficient. He also drives and scores well, so I'm happy when he drives, but he too can improve his kicking out.

[nmduke2001]

I don't know about this--on the replay, it looked like Tyler's original foul was a pretty standard foul on the arm--probably intentional, to keep him from making the shot, but not nearly strong enough to knock Mitchell down--after the foul, it looked like Mitchell sort of pushed against Tyler to shake him off, and like that was what actually caused him to fall, not the original foul. But I haven't gone back to look at it again, so I could be wrong.

Let me know what you think after watching it again. I watched it about five times and it looked dirty to me. Tyler pushes Mitchell's legs while he was in the air causing him to lose his balance. I'm shocked a flagrant was not called.

[Dukehky]

I said Rasheed would be better coming off the bench since before the season started. Toot toot. For just the reasons Kedsy elaborated on. I wanted Dre to start, I'll take Jones. Sulaimon is a better passer off drives than Rodney or Jabari (kid can pass, he just doesn't enough IMO), and Dre doesn't get lost with Rasheed, so I'll take Jones in the starting line-up. Not sure if that will stick, but I thought he was great tonight.

[hustleplays]

Always happy to come away with a win, but I gotta admit that this team puzzles me. There is a lot of talent, but something is lacking, and I can't quite put my finger on it. There have been a lot of folks analyzing, and I'm sure that I don't know enough to add anything much to that discussion about youth, communication, substitutions, stall ball, Plumlee, bad playmaking decisions, zone, etc.....

Except... I don't know that anyone has taken on the fiery leadership role, exhorting the team to play together, play hard. Perhaps it is because the captains aren't stars and command the respect, or don't take on that role.. I think of Laettner, Battier, James, Singler and others laying it all out on the floor, game after game and pushing the rest of the team to follow their lead. And never, ever giving up, even when nothing seems to be going right.

So, It made me glad to see the fire and enthusiasm that the boys had tonight. I don't know if any player was the instigator, but I hope that it continues.

I agree. in his book, "Leading with the Heart", Coach K emphasizes that his teams need at least one person who has true Duke, warrior heart. If you read the book, or watch/listen to him over the years, you can see that "heart" means something much more than, and is different from, just playing hard. It is a fierce determination to bring it, all the time, not giving in to circumstance and adversity, and instilling that in teammates. Other than TT, this team lacks that kind of leader, and TT isn't dominant enough as a player to fill this role. Quinn is strong sometimes, not others.

An indication of this issue for this team is that Coach K, in his post-VA presser, honestly acknowledged that he had been "set back" and "wasn't observant" over the last several weeks. He, clearly, was referring to the effects of his grieving his brother. I wish that one or more of our players would have filled the leadership void.

[SoCalDukeFan]

is get some assists. The defense collapses on him because they know he will force up the shot. He did have one very nice assist tonight.

After the UCLA game Kyle Anderson said he jhad played with and against Jabari in the past and Jabari knew he was the best player on the floor.
And he probably will be in about every game Duke plays this year. But he has teammates that are very very good. Better passing by Jabari would make the defense more honest and open up the game for him.

I liked the hockey style sub pattern. Last saw it tried by Steve Lavin at UCLA.

This is a good win for Duke. UVa has been playing very well and Duke has nit been.

SoCal

[Kedsy]

I don't understand why anybody is complaining about our offense. According to Pomeroy, we're #2 in the nation, and pretty darn close to #1. And tonight, I felt good about our defense as well.

Every team has its Achilles Heel, and I've been under the assumption that team defense is this team's bugaboo, but now I'm wondering if it's actually something else.

Mid- or Late-second half runs:

Kansas 15-4
Vermont 10-0
Arizona 19-6
Notre Dame 20-4
Clemson 18-5
Virginia 13-1

During those runs, our defense was poor and our decision-making was poor, and our offense generally became a stagnant festival of ill-conceived one-on-one moves or out-of-rhythm three-point attempts. But this team is too talented to think that doing everything wrong is a physical or basketball weakness. It's clearly psychological.

If the players can learn to not let an opponent's run get in their heads, and to respond calmly, with maturity, then we're as good as any team in the country. I think tonight's game was a great first step in that direction. After Virginia came all the way back, we did what we needed to do and grabbed the victory with both hands.


I wanted Dre to start, I'll take Jones. Sulaimon is a better passer off drives than Rodney or Jabari (kid can pass, he just doesn't enough IMO), and Dre doesn't get lost with Rasheed, so I'll take Jones in the starting line-up. Not sure if that will stick, but I thought he was great tonight.

Yeah, if we continue the two-line thing, Matt makes a lot of sense in the first unit, because he really appears to be a plus defender and that's what we need in a unit including Quinn, Rodney, and Jabari (three excellent offensive players who have not yet risen to the level of plus defender).


It felt kinda like a loss to me.

Wow, really? I could see this sort of comment after the Vermont game, but not tonight. No way. We played a very tough conference foe, built a comfortable lead and then when the other team fought back, we absorbed the punches and countered for the win. So, to me, it felt great.

[MaxAMillion]

I agree. in his book, "Leading with the Heart", Coach K emphasizes that his teams need at least one person who has true Duke, warrior heart. If you read the book, or watch/listen to him over the years, you can see that "heart" means something much more than, and is different from, just playing hard. It is a fierce determination to bring it, all the time, not giving in to circumstance and adversity, and instilling that in teammates. Other than TT, this team lacks that kind of leader, and TT isn't dominant enough as a player to fill this role. Quinn is strong sometimes, not others.

An indication of this issue for this team is that Coach K, in his post-VA presser, honestly acknowledged that he had been "set back" and "wasn't observant" over the last several weeks. He, clearly, was referring to the effects of his grieving his brother. I wish that one or more of our players would have filled the leadership void.

Absolutely, the press conference was very revealing. People forget that the coaches and players are human beings (not machines). I am thrilled that Coach K is the coach of this team and I love the fight they showed tonight. Amazing how people look at this performance as a let down. Probably explains some of the student support. Real easy to be a front runner.

[hustleplays]

I don't know about this--on the replay, it looked like Tyler's original foul was a pretty standard foul on the arm--probably intentional, to keep him from making the shot, but not nearly strong enough to knock Mitchell down--after the foul, it looked like Mitchell sort of pushed against Tyler to shake him off, and like that was what actually caused him to fall, not the original foul. But I haven't gone back to look at it again, so I could be wrong.

I am grateful that Tyler is one guy who is determined to stop easy lay-ups. Stop the ball -- make em earn their 2 points.

[Clay Feet POF]

Think this was a big win and bodes well for the rest of the year. Yes giving up a 13 point lead at home sucks but they responded and won the game. I think this gives them confidence going forward after failing to close out Notre Dame and Clemson. Just need Jabari to find his offense again, I think he's getting frustrated that he's getting beat up down low and not getting the calls.

Apparently I’m in the minority, but I thought this game was a breath of fresh air compared to the last couple.

I loved the Line change strategy, all of sudden the players are not competing against each other for minutes, but are focus on competing against the opponent. Naturally there will be many mistakes as they develop under game speed and condition. The beauty is the energy and camaraderie of the units inter twining and many more players getting minutes. It also gives us a longer look at little used players. (I like what I saw from Matt Jones and would like to see more)

There were many sloppy passes, little help for Jefferson (let see if Semi can help) Jabari not letting the game come to him and many other miscues that I sure will be posted. But even if we lost I would still be happy, (of course we were Lucky). But its so nice to the development of these units. My God, our roster has more talented players than 70% of the teams we play, let develop it Now! IMHO this was really we played as a “Team”

I think the camaraderie in the locker room must be sky high when so many players are involved on the floor. Can’t wait for the next game.

[DukeCrow]

Rasheed seems to excel in an offense where he is one of the main options and not just an afterthought. It was definitely a great move to put him on the 2nd line. What's crazy (and I'm sure unexpected to most) is that it seemed to me like the 2nd line played better than the 1st. They extended the lead more when they were in than the 1st line did (and often the lead would shrink with the 1st line in). It would have been nice to see them get the chance to close out the game.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

An indication of this issue for this team is that Coach K, in his post-VA presser, honestly acknowledged that he had been "set back" and "wasn't observant" over the last several weeks. He, clearly, was referring to the effects of his grieving his brother. I wish that one or more of our players would have filled the leadership void.

What about Wojo and Capel?

[hustleplays]

[QUOTE=Kedsy;694370]I don't understand why anybody is complaining about our offense. According to Pomeroy, we're #2 in the nation, and pretty darn close to #1. And tonight, I felt good about our defense as well.

Every team has its Achilles Heel, and I've been under the assumption that team defense is this team's bugaboo, but now I'm wondering if it's actually something else.

Mid- or Late-second half runs:

Kansas 15-4
Vermont 10-0
Arizona 19-6
Notre Dame 20-4
Clemson 18-5
Virginia 13-1

During those runs, our defense was poor and our decision-making was poor, and our offense generally became a stagnant festival of ill-conceived one-on-one moves or out-of-rhythm three-point attempts. But this team is too talented to think that doing everything wrong is a physical or basketball weakness. It's clearly psychological.

If the players can learn to not let an opponent's run get in their heads, and to respond calmly, with maturity, then we're as good as any team in the country. I think tonight's game was a great first step in that direction. After Virginia came all the way back, we did what we needed to do and grabbed the victory with both hands.

Yeah, if we continue the two-line thing, Matt makes a lot of sense in the first unit, because he really appears to be a plus defender and that's what we need in a unit including Quinn, Rodney, and Jabari (three excellent offensive players who have not yet risen to the level of plus defender).

I agree with both of your contrasting views on our offense and defense. :-) Overall, we've been doing pretty well. But too often, we do become stagnant, passing the ball around the perimeter rather aimlessly, or driving pell-mell into to the basket and not kicking out. I thought that our offense tonight was much better overall. More motion and lots of energy. and more rebounds!

I also agree re the mental dimension. We know that the physical talent is there. We've needed more mental toughness and poise when adversity strikes.

I also agree -- playing almost our entire bench juiced our entire team. I love this hockey approach. Everyone is involved. Rather than sitting on the bench wondering whether I might get in, and I better be perfect or I'll be benched in a NY minute, guys are going in as a team. One could see the unified energy spread among our players -- we're all in the battle, we need each other, we can do this together. Playing the bench is much more than a technical calibration of individual player's abilities and stats. I have felt for years that K's use of his bench collides with his concept of team and family: Trust all your mates to contribute. The joy I saw among the players was, IMO, not only because of the W, but because they were all in it together. They could fully rejoice and celebrate, because they didn't have to be sensitive to the reality -- the true emotional hurt -- of knowing that some of their buddies didn't play. That is a real issue among true comrades.

I have full compassion, and empathy, regarding Coach K's losing his brother. I deeply respect and admire his being so transparent regarding how his grief has affected his coaching engagement and effectiveness. That said, I am further appreciative and encouraged by his trusting his bench coaches [according to reports] in playing more of his players. A good leader builds a strong leadership team, so that when the #1 leader cannot fully engage, his team can fill the void. It took several weeks, but I am very happy that Coach K listened to his very competent colleagues. I am also happy, for him mostly, that he seems to be healing.

Finally, I am so very grateful for the privilege of being part of our Duke community, including our basketball community. We care about excellence, encompassing success, but also how we win and who we are. We feel pretty passionate about all three of these dimensions and cannot possibly view these three ideals in the same way. But we do care and we do so with respect and care. Go Duke!

[hustleplays]

Apparently I’m in the minority, but I thought this game was a breath of fresh air compared to the last couple.

I loved the Line change strategy, all of sudden the players are not competing against each other for minutes, but are focus on competing against the opponent. Naturally there will be many mistakes as they develop under game speed and condition. The beauty is the energy and camaraderie of the units inter twining and many more players getting minutes. It also gives us a longer look at little used players. (I like what I saw from Matt Jones and would like to see more)

There were many sloppy passes, little help for Jefferson (let see if Semi can help) Jabari not letting the game come to him and many other miscues that I sure will be posted. But even if we lost I would still be happy, (of course we were Lucky). But its so nice to the development of these units. My God, our roster has more talented players than 70% of the teams we play, let develop it Now! IMHO this was really we played as a “Team”

I think the camaraderie in the locker room must be sky high when so many players are involved on the floor. Can’t wait for the next game.

Yo Clay Feet, I read your post after posting mine. We must be brilliant, not to mention correct, because we agree, regarding the value of all the guys playing, and not just in dribbles. The dynamics change qualitatively, from how many minutes do I get to how can my own unit contribute to our team? To me, the benefits were starkly evident. You said it well -- there are technical miscues, but there is double the camaraderie and energy. I also think you nailed it with conjecturing that the truly "TEAM" win must have brought much joy to the locker room. Coaches, please take note! :-)

[hustleplays]

What about Wojo and Capel?

Good point. i fully agree with that. But Coach K has to let that happen. Has he given them full freedom to fill the void? Don't know, of course. We have an allegedly very strong coaching staff, so if our Head Coach is not able to give his best, one would hope that some very able assistants would be able, and allowed, to fill the breach.

[bedeviled]

During those runs, our defense was poor and our decision-making was poor, and our offense generally became a stagnant festival of ill-conceived one-on-one moves or out-of-rhythm three-point attempts. But this team is too talented to think that doing everything wrong is a physical or basketball weakness. It's clearly psychological.
If the players can learn to not let an opponent's run get in their heads, and to respond calmly, with maturity, then we're as good as any team in the countryMy previous comments about offense (didn't see the UVA game) were not to suggest that it was the primary problem. Quite the contrary, I think it is our strength and should be maximized. You pointed out our opponents runs. This is something that has struck me as well. We have put ourselves in position to win games, but then suffer runs by the opponents. Those lapses, as you wrote, involve both defense and offense and a resultant strong psychological component. My hope has been for improved game management on the offensive end to prevent or break those runs. I think it should be easier to dictate the game when we have possession, especially given our offensive prowess. Improvements in psychology and defense (positioning, communication, chemistry) seem a lot harder to me to implement (and understand ;) ) than better use of plays and shot selection.
I agree that we are as good as anyone if we can stop those runs. I see maximizing our offense as a way to offset defensive liabilities and to stop the runs while the team develops in the other areas without need of dramatic overhaul. It's not the only way (and definitely seems weird given Duke history our current offensive output), but I think it's warranted to discuss offensive execution.

[kAzE]

Kind of funny, if you think about it. After all the angst and supposition about the changes to come, Coach K came up with something none of us even dreamed of. The big question is whether we'll continue the two line thing in future games.


Can't remember where I read it, but apparently, this wasn't coach K's idea. He made this decision based on suggestions from Wojo and Capel. During the press conference, Coach K mentioned he hasn't been at his best lately and that he needed to be more observant of the team. He said part of the reason why we were getting dominated by opposing frontcourts was fatigue, so I think we may begin to see this type of NBA substitution pattern more from now on.

I, for one, am thrilled with this, and I hope we continue to do it as long as it's working. At least for one game, it seems to have helped our defensive intensity tremendously, and has also allowed our lower usage players, such as Sulaimon, Plumlee, and Jones to play more minutes, be effective in bigger roles, and gain confidence. It says a ton about Coach K that's he's even trying something like this. It speaks to his willingness to adapt and do what's best to help the team win, regardless of what's worked for him in the past.

As cliche as it sounds, I actually buy this "springboard" theory that some of the optimists on this message board are selling. This was a big win, and one that we really needed. The fact that it got so close and we still managed to come out on top may even be more of a positive. I think this game was huge for team chemistry, you could see how happy everyone was for Sulaimon and Jefferson,who both played fantastic. Coach K even promised that this would be a different team from now on, and I'm inclined to believe in him. Consider that we haven't seen this team firing on all cylinders yet, with the possible exception of the Davidson game. (that game was either a fluke, or just the hottest shooting night we're going to have all year, I think a bit of both) Our best player has had 4 straight brutal off games. He's going to bust out of this slump sooner or later, and now that Jefferson and Sulaimon are both playing at a high level, which wasn't the case earlier in the year, I think we can definitely make a run at this. I'm pretty optimistic.

[sporthenry]

My previous comments about offense (didn't see the UVA game) were not to suggest that it was the primary problem. Quite the contrary, I think it is our strength and should be maximized. You pointed out our opponents runs. This is something that has struck me as well. We have put ourselves in position to win games, but then suffer runs by the opponents. Those lapses, as you wrote, involve both defense and offense and a resultant strong psychological component. My hope has been for improved game management on the offensive end to prevent or break those runs. I think it should be easier to dictate the game when we have possession, especially given our offensive prowess. Improvements in psychology and defense (positioning, communication, chemistry) seem a lot harder to me to implement (and understand ;) ) than better use of plays and shot selection.
I agree that we are as good as anyone if we can stop those runs. I see maximizing our offense as a way to offset defensive liabilities and to stop the runs while the team develops in the other areas without need of dramatic overhaul. It's not the only way (and definitely seems weird given Duke history our current offensive output), but I think it's warranted to discuss offensive execution.

I agree. I think everyone agrees that our offense is good but in Kedsy's previous post, he brings up these big runs other teams have against us. In order to have those runs against us, it takes both offensive and defensive ineptitude. And I think Duke's problem, at least in the past few weeks has been on both sides. Our defense isn't going to be elite so we need to rely on our bread and butter which is that offense to win us games. Yes, we need to get better defensively as well but there is no reason with 2 lottery picks, Sheed, Cook, etc. that we should go 4-5 minutes with little to no offense. In the past, when other teams went on runs, Duke settle down, got the ball in Singler, Curry, JJ's hand and got us a basket. Jabari seemed in line for this role but he has obviously struggled the last few weeks and it almost seems like they have too many options that nobody takes this role. Add in the offense sputtering a bit and we get these droughts. I think that is why we saw more motion offense b/c this team was too predictable running that double screen from the wing play. Conference play comes down to execution and Duke just wasn't executing.

And yes, I know Kenpom's numbers have us as #2. But the offense has been trending down with the exception of the Tech game. I know Clemson and UVA are very good defensively as well but we also put up the #6 and #4 best offensive games vs these teams so it isn't like our offense was that good against them. Bilas mentioned it and obviously K wasn't happy with the offense either or else he wouldn't have changed it up much. And ultimately I agree, seems like it would be easier to fix the offense than it would the defense at this point. As unlucky we might have been with fouls, we were that lucky with missed lay ups and I'm not really sure how they fix the defense.

[dukelifer]

I agree. I think everyone agrees that our offense is good but in Kedsy's previous post, he brings up these big runs other teams have against us. In order to have those runs against us, it takes both offensive and defensive ineptitude. And I think Duke's problem, at least in the past few weeks has been on both sides. Our defense isn't going to be elite so we need to rely on our bread and butter which is that offense to win us games. Yes, we need to get better defensively as well but there is no reason with 2 lottery picks, Sheed, Cook, etc. that we should go 4-5 minutes with little to no offense. In the past, when other teams went on runs, Duke settle down, got the ball in Singler, Curry, JJ's hand and got us a basket. Jabari seemed in line for this role but he has obviously struggled the last few weeks and it almost seems like they have too many options that nobody takes this role. Add in the offense sputtering a bit and we get these droughts. I think that is why we saw more motion offense b/c this team was too predictable running that double screen from the wing play. Conference play comes down to execution and Duke just wasn't executing.

And yes, I know Kenpom's numbers have us as #2. But the offense has been trending down with the exception of the Tech game. I know Clemson and UVA are very good defensively as well but we also put up the #6 and #4 best offensive games vs these teams so it isn't like our offense was that good against them. Bilas mentioned it and obviously K wasn't happy with the offense either or else he wouldn't have changed it up much. And ultimately I agree, seems like it would be easier to fix the offense than it would the defense at this point. As unlucky we might have been with fouls, we were that lucky with missed lay ups and I'm not really sure how they fix the defense.
Yes- Duke has not responded to runs because beyond their D- they have trouble scoring inside. For all their strengths - none of the players are strong driving to the basket. Sheed tries to do this but somehow contorts his body and limit the effectiveness of the drive. Hood does not appear confident dribbling in traffic. Andre has always had his issues with his handle. Cook is just too slight and not a great leaper. Matt Jones might be able to do this better than anyone as he is longer than the other guards but lacks experience. The spread O needs to be rethought- not working great with this team and I thought it would have been something they would do with ease.

[porkpa]

The last guy I remember utilizing this two team system to advantage was of all people Dean Smith. Remember when he would reload with his "blue team" to give all his primary guys a blow? More often than not it helped.

[dukelifer]

The last guy I remember utilizing this two team system to advantage was of all people Dean Smith. Remember when he would reload with his "blue team" to give all his primary guys a blow? More often than not it helped.

Roy has done this as well but often to send a message. Here it was interesting that Sheed saw himself the offensive star of that Blue team and it got him going. The youth of this team is so apparent - guys figuring out how to be consistent with no one on the team who has ever done it before at this level to show them. Just have to battle like yesterday and hope that their are a few easy games along the way.

[CBecker]

Fascinating game. I was shocked when the mass substitutions started to happen, but it seemed to work. Infact the all bench lineup did extremely well.. helped by Rasheed going off of course.
Happy to see Plumlee get 12 mins tonight. He got hardly any stats, but did make a positive impact on defense.

[COCO]

I thought it was a terrific game. It was the first time I feel like I have seen Duke play like this all year and this is the way I like them to play. I liked the way Coach K ran in the two different lineups as it seemed like it invigorated everyone. The second team more than acquitted itself in its play. The chemistry of the two different teams worked well. I particularly liked the Sulaimon/Dawkins combo. There seems to be an ease between the two of them that seems to help Sulaimon though maybe not so much Andre.

I guess I am thinking about Andre in particular after watching Coach K's presser. Clearly, Coach is profoundly affected by his brother's death. Hopefully he realizes from witnessing Andre's experience that these life events are not so easily put behind. It seems to me that the entire team has been understandably mourning his brother's death. I almost feel like Coach decided that no matter what he was going to bring more joy to the game for his players -- win or lose -- by playing more of them. It felt like he was saying that life is too short to put winning over the sheer pleasure of the game.

Coach K's ability to see and make a change like that to me shows why the suggestion that he is past his prime is patently silly.

[CDu]

I don't know about this--on the replay, it looked like Tyler's original foul was a pretty standard foul on the arm--probably intentional, to keep him from making the shot, but not nearly strong enough to knock Mitchell down--after the foul, it looked like Mitchell sort of pushed against Tyler to shake him off, and like that was what actually caused him to fall, not the original foul. But I haven't gone back to look at it again, so I could be wrong.


Let me know what you think after watching it again. I watched it about five times and it looked dirty to me. Tyler pushes Mitchell's legs while he was in the air causing him to lose his balance. I'm shocked a flagrant was not called.

Pretty sure that nmduke is correct here. Definitely seemed like a push from behind by Thornton.

[CDu]

I am grateful that Tyler is one guy who is determined to stop easy lay-ups. Stop the ball -- make em earn their 2 points.

Except he didn't make the stop. Mitchell scored. And his attempt at making the stop was a dirty play. I am all for the "no easy layups" concept, but not through dirty play.

[hillsborodevil]

Too many positives to write about. Quite a few freshman posters including myself should feel pretty low after hearing Coach K's presser. Very humbling indeed.

Congrats to the team and staff!!!!!

btw - this caught my eye this morning that gave me a big laugh.

#2 Syracuse 4-0 -- 17-0
#22 Pittsburgh 3-0 .5 15-1
Virginia 3-1 1 12-5
Clemson 2-1 1.5 11-4
Florida State 2-1 1.5 11-4
#23 Duke 2-2 2 13-4
Maryland 2-2 2 10-7
North Carolina State 1-2 2.5 11-5
Wake Forest 1-2 2.5 11-5
Georgia Tech 1-2 2.5 10-6
Notre Dame 1-2 2.5 10-6
Miami (FL) 1-2 2.5 9-6
Virginia Tech 1-2 2.5 8-7
Boston College 1-3 3 5-12
North Carolina 0-3 3.5 10-6

Hurry back Mr. Sumner

[Native]

Happy to see Plumlee get 12 mins tonight. He got hardly any stats, but did make a positive impact on defense.

This. From where I was, it seemed that a Plumlee/Amile duo in the post has a chance to be very effective. Plumlee gums up so much around the rim due to his sheer size and Amile has a knack for picking up the garbage down low. I would be very interested to see what would happen if we primarily employ both at the same time.

[bob blue devil]

glad we won. really enjoyed rasheed's and amile's games.

net-net, i don't see how beating a mediocre UVa team by the skin of our teeth bodes any better for our future than our other recent results. but i do find cause for optimism. usually when people start blaming poor performance on psychology it's just another rationalization, but there is some evidence of it here with our choking away leads (as chronicled above), jabari's bizarre foray into bad shot selection, and coach k's personal distractions. here is to hoping all of that is behind us soon.

i don't know if line changes are a long-term solution for us, but it was fun to watch! not to second guess the staff, but i think the lack of firepower on the second line hurts dawkins tremendously on offense because the only other threat on the floor is rasheed. maybe it works because andre's presence keeps the focus not entirely on rasheed, which would presumably be the case if you swapped dawkins for jones (?).

[jv001]

This. From where I was, it seemed that a Plumlee/Amile duo in the post has a chance to be very effective. Plumlee gums up so much around the rim due to his sheer size and Amile has a knack for picking up the garbage down low. I would be very interested to see what would happen if we primarily employ both at the same time.

I think rebounding and inside defense would be better, but on offense the middle might be clogged up. And it wouldn't work end game because of their foul shooting woes. But I like them sharing the 5 position for most of the game. Big improvement in imo. GoDuke!

[jv001]

A great win in which the team pulled one out after giving up the lead. I believe this will give the team some confidence going forward. Great coaching job by Coach K and the staff. I am humbled by Coach's post game interview. I don't think I've ever heard him be so forthright. This could be the start of something special, guys. I can't wait until Saturday. GoDuke and beat State!!!

[77devil]

I got chills watching Coach K's postgame presser: http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=3160176&db_oem_id=4200

I love that man so much. I love this team so much. We are such a tightly knit team and program.

Great win, a springboard type game.

My only regret is not picking 16-2 in the ACC Prediction thread

I'm with you except for the last part which seems a tad optimistic for which I'm pretty confident you are kidding. This team has experienced a fair share of adversity so far which can draw them together and motivate them to work harder to fix the problems. It has a lot of upside and the best coach to help it reach its potential. I love that K is listening to his assistants when things aren't going well and not reverting back to total control.

Could be a rollacoaster ride. Hold on tight.

[Matches]

Apparently I’m in the minority, but I thought this game was a breath of fresh air compared to the last couple.

I loved the Line change strategy, all of sudden the players are not competing against each other for minutes, but are focus on competing against the opponent. Naturally there will be many mistakes as they develop under game speed and condition. The beauty is the energy and camaraderie of the units inter twining and many more players getting minutes. It also gives us a longer look at little used players. (I like what I saw from Matt Jones and would like to see more)


Totally agreed. In addition to solving the "what is Sheed's role" problem, it minimizes the amount of time that Cook and TT spend on the floor together, while keeping them both involved. Having both of those guys in at the same time is one of my little bugaboos - I think it makes us too small in the backcourt when they play together. OK with it in late game/ "good hands" situations but I'd prefer it be minimized otherwise.

I thought Jones and MP3 both acquitted themselves well, and made good cases for being part of the regular rotation. And somehow the line change strategy made the game feel like more of a team effort. Everyone was involved, and at the same time we weren't leaning too heavily on any particular player.

Yes the last few minutes were gut-wrenching, and I was starting to feel ill near the end. But I'm pleased we made plays to win the game - we showed much more heart and tenacity than.. oh... Saturday.

Clearly there's still work to be done. But this was a good step. Nice win over a good opponent.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

K said on the radio interview post-game that the assistants urged him to play more guys so that everyone would go all-out, and he agreed to do it.

That's the second time he's given good credit to the assistant coaches. He referred to a tactic Wojo suggested that worked out for us in an earlier game.

I think it has been a rough few weeks for the Ks. Micky was obviously not well in the stands last night either. Take care of them, girls.
Love, Ima

[DukieInBrasil]

glad we won. really enjoyed rasheed's and amile's games.

net-net, i don't see how beating a mediocre UVa team by the skin of our teeth bodes any better for our future than our other recent results. but i do find cause for optimism. usually when people start blaming poor performance on psychology it's just another rationalization, but there is some evidence of it here with our choking away leads (as chronicled above), jabari's bizarre foray into bad shot selection, and coach k's personal distractions. here is to hoping all of that is behind us soon.

i don't know if line changes are a long-term solution for us, but it was fun to watch! not to second guess the staff, but i think the lack of firepower on the second line hurts dawkins tremendously on offense because the only other threat on the floor is rasheed. maybe it works because andre's presence keeps the focus not entirely on rasheed, which would presumably be the case if you swapped dawkins for jones (?).

the key to having Jones on the 1st or A-team is that he allows them to play the pressure D in a way that Duke can't otherwise. Also, As mentioned above, Sheed on the B-side Players frees him to be the playmaker/lead option, whereas he was struggling with being the 3rd or 4th option on the A-team. People sell TT short, but when he's on the B-side Players he also stretches the floor since he is a respectable stand-still 3pt shooter (47.6%), he doesn't shoot high volume but if left alone he'll make a 3. However, neither Hairston nor MP3 command much attention in the post, but MP3 can get some alley-oops due to his hops if forgotten about. I'd like to see Ojeleye and Hairston split those minutes, as Semi s a better rebounder than Josh and has more offensive potential too.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Props to the crowd and the crazies for last night! As an example, this was the first time I can ever recall when the entire crowd, above and below the rail, stood of it's own accord, cheering and clapping for an entire time out. It was awesome.
Love, Ima

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I thought intensity won the game for Duke, and that was totally necessary because UVA is a well balanced team that played tough all night.

Sure there were some fortunate breaks needed to pull it out, but that usually comes to the team that plays with the most purpose. Duke absolutely did not want to lose that game.

As for quick thoughts on players, Jefferson is coming along nicely, active, good hands and aggressive. He matched up well inside last night, but I wouldn't get too excited. He still needs to develope strength to become a force inside against teams with bigger post players.

Parker looks out of shape to me, and he's starting to see better athletes every game that he didn't see early in the season. Not to mention teams are very aware of him and often drop double teams on him. He is a complete player. He's never going to be explosive, but he will get better as he gets into shape. He's forcing some shots, looks mainly out of frustration, it's the freshman funk and he's too good to not snap out of it.

I like Hood's skill level, he's a stud player. I don't see that he has great feel for the flow on the floor. He just overpowers the play, or not. He's better in freelance offense than set plays, so credit coach K in the change to the more motion offense to keep him involved. That also helped Rasheed get more involved as well.

Final thought: Duke's going to have to find a way to defend the post better to go far this year.

[slower]

I'm still looking okay with my 16-2 prediction.

Well, for another week or two, maybe.

I'll be pleasantly shocked if this team finishes with less than 6 conference losses (2 to Syracuse, 1 to UNC and at least another loss somewhere along the way).

I'm not sure that I remember another Duke team where the preseason hype (presumptive Final Four team, National Championship contender, crazy deep and athletic and able to play suffocating defense) has so far exceeded the actual results.

[Wander]

Every team has its Achilles Heel, and I've been under the assumption that team defense is this team's bugaboo, but now I'm wondering if it's actually something else.

Mid- or Late-second half runs:

Kansas 15-4
Vermont 10-0
Arizona 19-6
Notre Dame 20-4
Clemson 18-5
Virginia 13-1

During those runs, our defense was poor and our decision-making was poor, and our offense generally became a stagnant festival of ill-conceived one-on-one moves or out-of-rhythm three-point attempts. But this team is too talented to think that doing everything wrong is a physical or basketball weakness. It's clearly psychological.

If the players can learn to not let an opponent's run get in their heads, and to respond calmly, with maturity, then we're as good as any team in the country. I think tonight's game was a great first step in that direction. After Virginia came all the way back, we did what we needed to do and grabbed the victory with both hands.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of games in college basketball history* feature a similar run being given up by the losing team. It'd just be very rare statistically for a winning team to outscore a losing team by trading 4-2 runs for the entire game (one notable exception is the Duke-Butler title game). So the fact that we're giving up these runs isn't really enlightening at all, and the points scored during these runs count just as much as the points scored during the rest of the game. Don't overthink this - you were right the first time, it's just the case that our team defense sucks (and while I'm excited about the win, wasn't really great last night either).

*As one example, in Duke's losses last year, we gave up runs of 17-2 (Louisville), 18-6 (Maryland), 10-0 (Virginia), 11-2 (Maryland), 25-1 (Miami), and 9-0 (NC State). All those were in the 2nd half except Miami.

[DevilYouthCoach]

I thought intensity won the game for Duke, and that was totally necessary because UVA is a well balanced team that played tough all night.

Sure there were some fortunate breaks needed to pull it out, but that usually comes to the team that plays with the most purpose. Duke absolutely did not want to lose that game.

As for quick thoughts on players, Jefferson is coming along nicely, active, good hands and aggressive. He matched up well inside last night, but I wouldn't get too excited. He still needs to develope strength to become a force inside against teams with bigger post players.

Parker looks out of shape to me, and he's starting to see better athletes every game that he didn't see early in the season. Not to mention teams are very aware of him and often drop double teams on him. He is a complete player. He's never going to be explosive, but he will get better as he gets into shape. He's forcing some shots, looks mainly out of frustration, it's the freshman funk and he's too good to not snap out of it.

I like Hood's skill level, he's a stud player. I don't see that he has great feel for the flow on the floor. He just overpowers the play, or not. He's better in freelance offense than set plays, so credit coach K in the change to the more motion offense to keep him involved. That also helped Rasheed get more involved as well.

Final thought: Duke's going to have to find a way to defend the post better to go far this year.


This was the first game this season in which I have seen and felt the old Duke Intensity, and that will have to be the difference going forward. From here on out every team is going to be a tough team to beat; every game will be a battle, and this kind of heart, passion, intensity, gutsiness, fury will be necessary to prevail.

Using the five-man substitution scheme was brilliant. Both of our two teams had great scorers and defenders, and we had the energy left to win at the end.

Regarding Coach K -- he's back! I love it!

And as for Marshall Plumlee, what I saw today is very promising. I believe that this young man is going to really be good for us! He looked much more in sync with the game than ever before -- playing time against the best teams is essential.

[oldnavy]

Statement game? Time will tell, but I think I saw a team grow up a little last night.

Loved the line subs, very nice and I hope we continue to do it... everybody gets involved. Jabari is pushing too hard. He needs to take what is given him. He is fantastic, but really needs to do a better job of recognizing double teams, etc...

GREAT game from Amile, just GREAT.

My take on losing leads is that it is as much our offensive struggles as defensive lapses. When we get up, we seem to get a little more reckless on O. If we are up by 10 or more and we continue to score that puts more game pressure on the other team. However, if we fail to score, that gives them hope and momentum... not just a defensive issue IMHO.


Side Note:

*I am not enjoying basketball as much this year and it may be due in part to our "struggles", but I think it is how the games are called. So disjointed with whistles on just about every possession....

Jay made mention last night that the "old timers" want the refs to let them play. He said it sort of as a joke, but both my wife and I said YES! I guess we are old timers.

I miss the flow of the game.....

[flyingdutchdevil]

I didn't do this for the Clemson game as I was too upset / confused to post on DBR.

1) Sulaimon and Amile were tough. That's the best way to describe it. This team, as we all known, isn't a vintage Duke team. They aren't playing with a chip on their shoulder. They aren't imposing their will. But Sulaimon and Amile were tough.

2) I have not been advocating for MP3 to start or play a lot of minutes, but I will say that his defense when he was out there was really good. Having MP3 out there prevents big men from just shooting over their man (see Hairston, Josh and Parker, Jabari). Also, there were at least two sequences when MP3 effectively boxed out, allowing a guard to grab a rebound. If MP3 isn't a good rebounder, that's fine. I just like that he effectively boxes out.

3) Hood has been stellar these last few games. He didn't shoot well, but I liked what I saw on D from him. D is 50% ability, 50% desire. We're seeing a lot of the desire come through.

4) It has been said before, but we looked better with Jabari on the bench. I understand that Jabari is going through a freshman slump, but that doesn't excuse the pull-up Js, the dribbling into triple-coverage, and the lack-luster defense. He's better than that; he just can't force anything.

5) Quinn is back to his Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde routine. I thought he got over it, but you don't know what Quinn you're going to get. A consistently good Quinn is better than an inconsistent Quinn, but I'd also take a consistently poor Quinn over an inconsistent Quinn because at least that is more fixable. Quinn is absolutely essential to this team. We need him to consistently be at his best.

6) Good to see Coach K experimenting out there. Like many posters, I think a lot of our issues stem from the coaching side. Glad to see them mix things up.

7) If you put Tyler's leadership, Jones's defense, Dawkins's defense, and Sulaimon's intangibles into one, what player would you get? Can we get the Duke bio department to work on splicing a few cells together? Please?

[fuse]

The last guy I remember utilizing this two team system to advantage was of all people Dean Smith. Remember when he would reload with his "blue team" to give all his primary guys a blow? More often than not it helped.

I seem to recall the platooning approach was just one of the many reasons the 1999 Duke team was so much fun to watch.
We came at our opponents in waves.
I really like the change up and I hope it sticks.

[Reilly]

... I am not enjoying basketball as much this year and it may be due in part to our "struggles", but I think it is how the games are called. So disjointed with whistles on just about every possession....

Jay made mention last night that the "old timers" want the refs to let them play. He said it sort of as a joke, but both my wife and I said YES! I guess we are old timers.

I miss the flow of the game.....

The funny thing is that it was the lack of the (free)flow of the players in the game -- the hand-checking, the arm-barring, the knocking-cutters-off-pathing -- that has led to the current emphasis on "let them play (freely, without all of that)" and the current spate of whistles. I'm OK w/ the whistles (hopefully, just short-term) if we can get back to a more freely flowing game. Watching the 2010 national championship game was like watching a wrestling match.

[daveyro]

So much to love about this game, esp the broadend rotatation and all-out effort. But one thing puzzles me:
Why do we end up running the clock down and jacking up bad shots at end of games? This surely contributed to the UVA "comeback" as well as recent losses. These guys have been playing long enough to read a shot clock right on top of the backboard.
is it:
We don't get enough early offense b/c when we do get a d-rebound, no one can throw the outlet? Guys are gang rebounding so there is no one to outlet it to?
K knows that teams have figured out how to defend us so outscoring the opponent is not feasible, so he runs the clock down?
Lack of floor general?
Not enough set plays, too much dribbling?
Other teams simply upping the man pressure?

Again, great win and happy for us but K has always been good at end of game situations.

[MCFinARL]

Pretty sure that nmduke is correct here. Definitely seemed like a push from behind by Thornton.

Since I probably won't have the patience to to look back for it, I'll concede the point--I may have been more focused on the upper bodies and not have seen a push to the legs.

[RepoMan]

I got chills watching Coach K's postgame presser: http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=3160176&db_oem_id=4200

I love that man so much. I love this team so much. We are such a tightly knit team and program.



Agree 100%. That press conference demonstrates precisely why Coach K is one of the best leaders around, not just in the basketball coach business, but anywhere. He gets it. His players would run through a brick wall for him right now. Win or lose, the life messages that he teaches last forever. What an exceptional role model.

[gumbomoop]

... it was interesting that Sheed saw himself the offensive star of that Blue team and it got him going.


The second team more than acquitted itself in its play. The chemistry of the two different teams worked well. I particularly liked the Sulaimon/Dawkins combo.


the key to having Jones on the 1st or A-team is that he allows them to play the pressure D in a way that Duke can't otherwise. Also, As mentioned above, Sheed on the B-side Players frees him to be the playmaker/lead option, whereas he was struggling with being the 3rd or 4th option on the A-team.

These posts raise a key point to the platoon strategy: the staff must surely have put Jones with the A+ unit to provide tight perimeter D, as DIB points out. Sulaimon and Dawkins became not only the primary O-options on the A unit, but virtually the only options, meaning that when the A unit was on the floor, plays were designed to get Sulaimon and Dawkins the shots.

So I assume the reason Sulaimon saw himself as one of the two stars on his unit is that the staff planned it exactly that way. Can't have that A unit on the floor for more than a sequence or two if it's nothing but a tactic to give the A+ unit a quick breather. But with 2 clear O-weapons, it's something more.

I'm hoping to see more of this 2-platoon this Sat. Keep Jones with the A+ unit, let Thornton continue to coach his A unit [as he did when they were on the bench], and as second-half situations develop, move whomever to the A+ unit.

Maybe it was only a one-off, but it sure energized Sulaimon, and probably Plumlee, too. And in the end, Sulaimon got A+ minutes, during which he was hero, goat, and sorta-GOAT.

[oldnavy]

The funny thing is that it was the lack of the (free)flow of the players in the game -- the hand-checking, the arm-barring, the knocking-cutters-off-pathing -- that has led to the current emphasis on "let them play (freely, without all of that)" and the current spate of whistles. I'm OK w/ the whistles (hopefully, just short-term) if we can get back to a more freely flowing game. Watching the 2010 national championship game was like watching a wrestling match.

I think I get what the attempt is, but it is hard for me to watch.

What confounds me the most is the "anticipated" calls. There was one play last night where Matt Jones was called for a foul when a UVa player was going to the basket. It was an "and one" call. I watched it on replay and neither Matt nor Amile even made contact with the player. The ref had made up his mind to make the call BEFORE the play happened. I see this all the time.... another play was when Amile went to the floor and save the ball. The ref called him out of bounds. Clearly he was not out of bounds (by several inches), so the ref must have made up his mind that he was "going to be" out of bounds.

(DISCLAIMER) not saying all the calls went against Duke, there were plenty of calls for Duke that I wish they didn't call...

I understand that calling a game is very difficult. I think they refs would be much better to have "late" whistles vice the "quick" whistle so that the actually see what happens rather than anticipate what may happen.

My take is to let them play and not call every single touch because you cannot possibly call every bit of contact. Basketball is a contact sport. Call the contact that matters... not just contact because you will inevitably be inconsistent if you try to call everything. Touch fouls 30 feet away from the basket are called and collisions under the basket by the bigs are let go????

If nothing else... don't call what you don't see...

[Chicago 1995]

Pretty sure that nmduke is correct here. Definitely seemed like a push from behind by Thornton.

It looked bad live, and the replay made it look like he was really, really lucky not to get a flagrant. The foul at the end where he tripped and then hacked was bad, but I think it was just desperation because he knew he was beat after stumbling.

The foul under the basket though, was an ugly foul.

[Zeke]

I really loved the 2 platoon system last night.In addition to keeping the players more rested after an early turnaround from Clemson, it really seemed to generate MUCH more enthusiasm from all the team. I haven't seen that all season and I can imagine riding the pine for most on the game is not appealing particularly to good players.

[77devil]

Agree 100%. That press conference demonstrates precisely why Coach K is one of the best leaders around, not just in the basketball coach business, but anywhere. He gets it. His players would run through a brick wall for him right now. Win or lose, the life messages that he teaches last forever. What an exceptional role model.

Yep, who would you follow, Bob Knight, Roy Williams, or Coach K? When I was in the corporate world I occasionally used short video clips of those three to demonstrate different styles of leadership: tough love, sympathetic/empathetic, and by example. All have useful purposes depending on the circumstances, but while Bob and Roy tend to operate in one mode and deflect accountability, what sets K apart is his ability to use various styles, adapt, and, importantly, always take responsibility.

[Channing]

Also, As mentioned above, Sheed on the B-side Players frees him to be the playmaker/lead option, whereas he was struggling with being the 3rd or 4th option on the A-team. People sell TT short, but when he's on the B-side Players he also stretches the floor since he is a respectable stand-still 3pt shooter (47.6%), he doesn't shoot high volume but if left alone he'll make a 3. However, neither Hairston nor MP3 command much attention in the post, but MP3 can get some alley-oops due to his hops if forgotten about. I'd like to see Ojeleye and Hairston split those minutes, as Semi s a better rebounder than Josh and has more offensive potential too.

I think these are some really astute points, and I agree whole heartedly with the point about Rasheed. From what I have seen, Rasheed will excel when he can be a rhythm shooter. He needs to touch the ball a couple times per possession, and he thrives on being "the guy" when the shot clock is running down. While that sometimes results in ugly/wasted possessions, I think that it will, more often than not, lead to performances like last night. When Rasheed was consistently playing with Rodney and Jabari (and Quinn), he was the 3rd (or 4th) option on offense, and seemed to force bad shots every time he touched the ball, all in an effort to get into the game flow. The freedom of being the primary option when he is on the floor will, hopefully, prove to be a very positive revelation.

As for the other points ... not sure that the "PG" of the B-team being no more than a stand still shooter on offense is a great thing. As mentioned above, it would be great if Rasheed could work off the ball a little, but I think the next time TT blows by a guy from the PG position will be the first. I can't wait to see how MP3 progresses. Personally, I think that Aaron Gray (or was it Grey), the former center at Pitt, is his floor if he continues to work hard, and he was an excellent college center later in his career. I think MP3's ceiling is all-ACC; he is so tall and athletic that it is just a matter of slowing the game down, getting game reps, and letting the game come to him.

I also hope that Semi starts seeing some of Hairston's minutes. As a senior, he shouldn't be as flustered as he was when the shot clock was winding down. If he can't bring poise and composure to the court, I'm not sure what he brings. Occasionally he'll flash some real skill and make a tough inside basket, but it will be really tough to win consistently with an offensive non-factor on the floor for extended periods.

[DukeDevil]

A few people have mentioned that they think Rasheed was demoted this game as he played off the bench. I'm not convinced of that. I mentioned this in the chat, (and sorry if someone mentioned this a few pages back, didn't get through all the posts) but I think that K wanted 2 teams with differing styles and a few offensive go-to options, and rasheed was the 2nd teams go-to for offense. I think the idea was more then to just have fresh bodies. I think the 5 for 5 maneuver provides a few things:

1) It's no longer a marathon, playing hard for 40 minutes when people are getting wiped out and/or conserving energy and not playing their best. I think K is asking them to give him 3 ALL OUT minutes, knowing they'll be sat for rest, and not because they aren't performing/making mistakes.

2) More bodies in the game allows the team to actually press despite the emphasis on the arm bars/ballhandler contact this year (admittedly it's being erratically called at this point in the season). Less worry about fouling out.

3) Two different teams with different styles allows K to keep the other team off rhythm. As soon as they get used to one team's style of play, he throws another at you. The opposing team can't just prep to play a single team with a few different pieces to mix in, it's basically having to prepare to place two very different teams in one game.

I don't recall ever going into a Duke game thinking we would lose, but I admit I felt that way about this game. Just when I thought I was out...they PULL me back in. I have a feeling we won't be going to this 5 for 5 thing as much as we did this game, but honestly...I loved it. I hope it becomes our signature for the rest of the season.

DD

[Billy Dat]

So much to love about this game, esp the broadend rotatation and all-out effort. But one thing puzzles me:
Why do we end up running the clock down and jacking up bad shots at end of games? This surely contributed to the UVA "comeback" as well as recent losses. These guys have been playing long enough to read a shot clock right on top of the backboard.
is it:
We don't get enough early offense b/c when we do get a d-rebound, no one can throw the outlet? Guys are gang rebounding so there is no one to outlet it to?
K knows that teams have figured out how to defend us so outscoring the opponent is not feasible, so he runs the clock down?
Lack of floor general?
Not enough set plays, too much dribbling?
Other teams simply upping the man pressure?

This observation crystallizes one of the great mysteries about this team, and one that I share. Even though we look bad on offense, especially recently, the stats don't support that conclusion. As many have said, we are currently ranked the #2 offense in the country according to KenPom, yet our defense is back to being ranked in the 100s. So, while I agree that it feels like our offense is a problem (the shot clock hurries, the one-on-one play, Jabari's recent lack of effectiveness, Hood's tendancy to go one-on-one, our seeming predictability, etc.), we are still very highly ranked.

But, earlier this thread, Kedsy made a point about our true weakness, perhaps, being our tendency to give up game changing second half runs. I bet if we looked at our offensive efficiency during those times, it would stink - and those are probably the times that loom largest in our minds. Maybe, in fact, stretches of bad offense are leading to bad defense?

[Kfanarmy]

…. Same long slim sort of guy who is cute around the basket and always seems to be in the right position to rebound... I thought Amile did a great job…but I wouldn’t necessarily describe it as “cute.” :cool:


… I think that this was one of the Finest Basketball games that I've seen, ever!… It was a really fun game, except for the period from 4 to 2 minutes left in the 2nd half…that part was a bit dicey.


So nice to be optimistic. So you think this team will beat Syracuse twice in the regular season?.... I don’t know about anyone beating Syracuse twice, but I watched their scrap with BC last night, and for the first time really thought they can be had. That said at the end of the game, Cuse had more points. Duke’s biggest challenge will again be on Defense. Cuse has some really quick hands and length in the paint, though BC schooled them for long stretches last night. May need to play Amile and MP3 in that game unless Duke wants to give up 20 offensive Rebounds.


…Marshall. I know he's 7 foot tall, but he has been poor at defensive rebounding all season, and tonight was no different (as dukeblue6661 pointed out)…Marshall played reasonably well tonight, but he didn't show me anything that suggests he should be playing more minutes. Has someone actually run the Plus-minus for each player last night? Obviously you aren’t a MP3 fan, but he blocked one and altered several other VA shots as they tried to shoot over him. But who knows maybe JP will be able to guard Syracuse 7 footers by the time that game arrives.


net-net, i don't see how beating a mediocre UVa team by the skin of our teeth bodes any better for our future than our other recent results. I think UVA was picked fourth in the ACC, was 3-0 walking on to the floor and is by all accounts an extremely good defensive team. I was impressed for most of the night with Duke’s performance.


…. What confounds me the most is the "anticipated" calls…If nothing else... don't call what you don't see... Absolutely. I also don’t get why an official doesn’t wave it off when they’ve clearly anticipated a foul, blown the whistle, and the foul didn’t happen as they anticipated. The crew last night did that several times without reversing themselves. I think that is unprofessional.

Good learning win. The team is learning and the challenges make this season an unpredictable adventure.

[Highlander]

My take:

- Plumlee was serviceable in his time on the floor. He didn't wow me with a ton of great contributions (12 min, 1 rebound, 1 block, 0 points), but he didn't look lost either. I would love for him to be a more effective rebounder, as I think it is an need area he can address. But he is going to need to do more than just take up space in the paint for us to be great. Those that think he is the answer saw what they wanted to see. Those that think he doesn't bring much to the table did as well. Great point to the poster who said his FT woes will keep him out of the game in crunch time until he improves in that area.

- Jefferson. Wow! What an awesome game by Amile! He rebounded TOUGH and contributed on the offensive end as well. His tip out to Rasheed at the end, clutch rebound, and sinking of both FT's won us the game. One of his best games as a Blue Devil. Well deserved MOTM.

- Sheed played much more in control with the second unit. I did notice that with the second unit in we were offensively challenged because Sheed was the only person who could create his own shot and was the #1 option on offense. Dawkins was #2, and everyone else was kind of an afterthought. Yet he seemed to still get some good looks and scored effectively. I agree he seems to play better off the bench.

- Cook was invisible for much of the game, but caught fire at the end and really ran the delay pretty well for 3-4 possessions in a row. He is our go-to guy when we need a bucket 1 on 1, and is pretty good in those situations. I trust him more than Hood or Parker right now. He is too good to go scoreless in a game.

- Parker - For someone who has the raw talent he has, I have not seen it lately. What I have seen is a sub par defender who is not incredibly quick and has trouble creating his own shot off the dribble. His post skills are pretty rudimentary. He gets by hitting some pretty difficult shots, but when those are not falling the bad tends to outweigh the good. He still has tons of potential, but he certainly doesn't look like an NBA level talent right now.

- We really didn't have much of an interior passing game to speak of. If one of our guys was driving, they were either going all the way to the rack or kick out for a three. I would like to see Hood, Parker, and Suliamon improve in this area.

- UVA made the decision to hedge every time we ran a high screen. This repeatedly left the screener open to crash the basket. Would have liked to have seen Amile, Parker, Jefferson, and Plumlee get some midrange jumpers out of that instead of Cook and Hood always looking to drive or get open for a 3. Amile could get 6-8 points a game off this if he can hit the short jumper and we pass him the ball.

- UVA made a run when we went into our stall ball routine and we couldn't get points. It doesn't take long to blow a 10 point lead when you aren't scoring, even to a mediocre team. We saw that at Clemson where we went the last 6 minutes of the game without a FG, and we had a 3-4 minute run at the end of this game where we went cold as well. It is a disturbing trend that we cannot seem to put decent teams away and instead allow them to hang around. Would like to see that killer instinct.

I think we played much better on defense last night for 30-35 minutes, but panicked a bit in the last 5 and UVA took full advantage. Luckily we made some plays and got a few breaks at the end to pull this one out. I don't think we're a really good team right now without Parker playing to his potential, but this was a good win which will build confidence that we can pull out a close one, especially when our top scorers have an off night. Plenty of room for improvement, but a much better team effort than Clemson, so that is progress.

[wilson]

Parker looks out of shape to me, and he's starting to see better athletes every game that he didn't see early in the season. Not to mention teams are very aware of him and often drop double teams on him. He is a complete player. He's never going to be explosive, but he will get better as he gets into shape. He's forcing some shots, looks mainly out of frustration, it's the freshman funk and he's too good to not snap out of it.I would attribute Jabari's seeming weariness more to playing out of position than to being out of shape. I'm reminded a lot of Kyle Singler's freshman year, when we had a similarly undersized team. Kyle was the player on that team who was closest to having the physique necessary to contend with opposing bigs, and it was clearly a physical burden as the season wore on, particularly for a freshman. By the end of the '06-'07 campaign, everybody was wondering "What's wrong with Kyle?" His shot was off, his legs were rubber, and he was a shell of his usual dynamic self. I hope we don't experience such a precipitous decline in Jabari's production this season (and I also hope this doesn't reopen the "Why doesn't Marshall get more minutes?" debate), but I can't help but notice the parallels.

[freshmanjs]

I would attribute Jabari's seeming weariness more to playing out of position than to being out of shape. I'm reminded a lot of Kyle Singler's freshman year, when we had a similarly undersized team. Kyle was the player on that team who was closest to having the physique necessary to contend with opposing bigs, and it was clearly a physical burden as the season wore on, particularly for a freshman. By the end of the '06-'07 campaign, everybody was wondering "What's wrong with Kyle?" His shot was off, his legs were rubber, and he was a shell of his usual dynamic self. I hope we don't experience such a precipitous decline in Jabari's production this season (and I also hope this doesn't reopen the "Why doesn't Marshall get more minutes?" debate), but I can't help but notice the parallels.

that is really weird, because singler wasn't on that team.

[wilson]

that is really weird, because singler wasn't on that team.Excuse me...'07-'08. My mistake, but my above point remains.

[uh_no]

not to ruin the party....but I think a lot of people's opinions are highly clouded by the fact that the basketball gods gave rasheed the bounce of a lifetime...and had that not fallen, we would have had a pretty good chance of losing this game....and everyone here would be moping about the end of the world....

i choose NOT to take that view...i'm going to mope about the end of the world anyway!

things that still wen't pretty poorly:
defense: we surrendered 105 pts/100pos on defense....this is STILL worse than our adjusted efficiency on the year, and even though it was not as atrocious as the performance in some of the losses, it's still pretty bad....and uva's offense is simply not that good....they are outside the top 100 in the country.

crunch time offense: we seem to forget how to play offense in the last 10 minutes of the game, allowing, as someone has pointed out, a now very situation of giving up a big run late....we seem to get nothing done for the 25 seconds of the shotclock, and then someone tries to break down the defense in ISO....just because the clock is down under 15 does not mean you can stop moving without the ball....this happens consistently game to game when we're up near the end....and every time we stop scoring....this team is about as bad as playing stall ball as any team i've seen at duke, and the late runs back that up


so is there some rosiness? yeah....given i'm not going to really change my outlook on the team until there is marked improvement in the above two points...

amile: killed it on the boards, scored some points....great game....

rebounding in general: MUCH better...still a few times where guys gave up on rebounds, started heading down the court, and allowed for easy put backs for uva....you can't give up on boxing out because nobody seems behind you...there was one instance i remember where i think it was sheed allowed a guy to come flying in (and sheed ended up fouling him...) to grab a rebound....but it was BETTER....and that's a start

marshall: doesn't show up in the stats, but watching the game, the man changes our look on the floor....there were several times on rebounds when he didn't end up with it, but he clearly takes his man away from the rebound, allowing someone else to get it. he's a big guy....he can say "you will not get this rebound...i don't care if I don't, but you won't either" and it results in someone from duke having the chance to snag it. this is extremely valuable IMO

lineups: loved to see the lineups get mixed up....not sure why...but i liked it....

so was I happy with the improvement in some areas? yes, of course. I'm not sure the performance allayed my unease about some of the things that may prove fatal in the end.

[Matches]

I would attribute Jabari's seeming weariness more to playing out of position than to being out of shape. I'm reminded a lot of Kyle Singler's freshman year, when we had a similarly undersized team. Kyle was the player on that team who was closest to having the physique necessary to contend with opposing bigs, and it was clearly a physical burden as the season wore on, particularly for a freshman. By the end of the '06-'07 campaign, everybody was wondering "What's wrong with Kyle?" His shot was off, his legs were rubber, and he was a shell of his usual dynamic self. I hope we don't experience such a precipitous decline in Jabari's production this season (and I also hope this doesn't reopen the "Why doesn't Marshall get more minutes?" debate), but I can't help but notice the parallels.

I've seen this theory a lot, but I just don't buy it. Singler wore down/ slumped in late February/ March, not early-to-mid January. And Singler spent a lot more time playing the 5 than Jabari has. How many teams have we even played that sported big, punishing front lines? Some, sure, but not that many.

(And even though it's generally accepted wisdom that playing the post wore Kyle down, that's really only an assumption. He had a pretty prolonged shooting slump his senior season as well, even though he played primarily on the perimeter that year. It's entirely possible that he's just a streaky player.)

Of course every player is different, so it's possible they'll wear down at different rates. Only Jabari knows how Jabari feels. He doesn't look tired to me. He looks frustrated. I believe firmly that he will get through it.

[bob blue devil]

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of games in college basketball history* feature a similar run being given up by the losing team. It'd just be very rare statistically for a winning team to outscore a losing team by trading 4-2 runs for the entire game (one notable exception is the Duke-Butler title game). So the fact that we're giving up these runs isn't really enlightening at all, and the points scored during these runs count just as much as the points scored during the rest of the game. Don't overthink this - you were right the first time, it's just the case that our team defense sucks (and while I'm excited about the win, wasn't really great last night either).

*As one example, in Duke's losses last year, we gave up runs of 17-2 (Louisville), 18-6 (Maryland), 10-0 (Virginia), 11-2 (Maryland), 25-1 (Miami), and 9-0 (NC State). All those were in the 2nd half except Miami.
My gut agrees with Kedsy. Your counterargument ignores the issue of when the runs occur (time and score). Every loss we had a lead at the half. I wish I had time to statistically define the type of choke we've been seeing out of this team and then test it, but I don't need to in order to convince myself it's happening - it feels pretty obvious. Yes, everyone gives up a run, but we're doing something worse.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

The funny thing is that it was the lack of the (free)flow of the players in the game -- the hand-checking, the arm-barring, the knocking-cutters-off-pathing -- that has led to the current emphasis on "let them play (freely, without all of that)" and the current spate of whistles. I'm OK w/ the whistles (hopefully, just short-term) if we can get back to a more freely flowing game. Watching the 2010 national championship game was like watching a wrestling match.

I was glad to see the new rules when they first came out because I have long thought the game was getting too physical.

But as the season has gone on, its clear to me that the emphasis is not where it should be. I hate all the touch fouls being called. That's not the problem. A hand on the dribbler as he drives by is no big deal to me, as long as he's not pushed.

The problem is with the Texas's and the Creighton's of the game that like to use the body to bang and push dribblers/cutters to disrupt the players motion, and some excessive banging in the low post to root out a player that had already established his spot with better footwork and quickness.

[vick]

not to ruin the party....but I think a lot of people's opinions are highly clouded by the fact that the basketball gods gave rasheed the bounce of a lifetime...and had that not fallen, we would have had a pretty good chance of losing this game....and everyone here would be moping about the end of the world....


I basically agree with you, in that we shouldn't overreact to single wins any more than single losses, but on this specific point, had the ball not fallen in, I think Parker very likely gets the rebound and stuffs it (as I saw it, not only was he unguarded on the weak side under the rim, there wasn't anyone really close to him), so we'd still have had the lead had it not dropped, albeit by 1 instead of 2.

[Duvall]

I'll be pleasantly shocked if this team finishes with less than 6 conference losses (2 to Syracuse, 1 to UNC and at least another loss somewhere along the way).

UNC? Duke has several games much tougher than that - @Pitt, FSU, @Miami.

[devildeac]

On the ride home from the game, I was thinking how DBR must be euphoric. I mean, all 11 recruited players played in the first 10 minutes of the game in a novel platoon substitution pattern, Plumlee got more playing time, Hairston and Thornton got less playing time, we played much better defense particularly in the first half, some bounces didn't go our way at all for a stretch but we hung on, and Amile -- the worst free throw shooter in the league* -- steps up and sinks his two free throws. We beat a 3-0 team coming off a fantastic win.

This is what DBR has been clamoring for, right? So everyone has to be over the moon, right?

The team leaves the court jubilantly high-fiving/pushing each other, something I haven't seen in a long time. Even Coach K uncharacteristically ran over and leaped on Wojo, giving him a bear hug! The post-game radio show interview featured a very happy Coach K praising the UVA team and really excited about the performance of his Duke team. Rasheed was interviewed -- SO happy, so impressed with Amile's play, the platoon substitution keeping fresh legs, the teamwork, improved D. He noted the team wound up ripping Amile's jersey during the celebration. Surely DBR will be celebrating, right?

Then I read this thread.

WOW. Apparently I watched a different game, perhaps in a parallel universe. I'm going to stop reading DBR tonight and go back to the wonderful feeling of seeing a team that was really excited about winning a game as a team, with some very different strategies employed in about a one-hour practice (per Coach K's radio interview). That's impressive, IMHO.

Coach K did not mention his coaching or personal situation in the post-game interview on the radio. However, it looks like he did to the media and must have opened up. Having met Bill Krzyzewski and his family and seeing first-hand for four years how close Coach is to his family, the loss of his brother has to be absolutely devastating to him. I think this has more of an impact on the team's performance than most people think. I saw this game as a one where a lot of issues on many different levels have been overcome, together as a team, allowing them to move on to another level. I'm very encouraged. I'm going to bed before anyone else can drag me down.


* Minimums FT/game to make it on that list -- I know, Plumlee is 0-for-career. But Marshall hasn't taken enough to make that list.

Hope you had time to enjoy a dunkelweizen or brown ale before retiring for the evening;) . I had a meeting last PM and was sorry to have missed the game. I did listen to K's interview on the radio from the locker room and he was very pleased. I didn't know about the contents of the presser until reading the N&O this AM. His brother's death obviously affected him greatly, more than I would have thought/imagined and I'm glad/proud/pleased/admiring that he was able/willing to share those personal/private thoughts publicly. Heck, I guess he threw himself under the bus when he said all the problems in the last 3 games were on him.;):rolleyes:

[Kedsy]

net-net, i don't see how beating a mediocre UVa team by the skin of our teeth bodes any better for our future than our other recent results.

Virginia was the hottest team in the ACC coming into this game, and is ranked #17 by Pomeroy (i.e., 5 spots better than Duke). I believe UVa was also ranked pre-season, so it's not like their recent stellar play was a fluke. They are far, far better than "mediocre."


I'm pretty sure the vast majority of games in college basketball history* feature a similar run being given up by the losing team. It'd just be very rare statistically for a winning team to outscore a losing team by trading 4-2 runs for the entire game (one notable exception is the Duke-Butler title game). So the fact that we're giving up these runs isn't really enlightening at all, and the points scored during these runs count just as much as the points scored during the rest of the game. Don't overthink this - you were right the first time, it's just the case that our team defense sucks (and while I'm excited about the win, wasn't really great last night either).

*As one example, in Duke's losses last year, we gave up runs of 17-2 (Louisville), 18-6 (Maryland), 10-0 (Virginia), 11-2 (Maryland), 25-1 (Miami), and 9-0 (NC State). All those were in the 2nd half except Miami.

You may be right, but there also may be something to it, since all of the runs this season have come in the last 10 minutes of the 2nd half, and most of them came in the last 5 minutes. So based on the timing of the runs, it may be more than just the statistical truth that losing teams give up runs.



Why do we end up running the clock down and jacking up bad shots at end of games? This surely contributed to the UVA "comeback" as well as recent losses. These guys have been playing long enough to read a shot clock right on top of the backboard.


Against Virginia, we were running the shot clock down the entire game, as many of UVa's opponents do, because Virginia is a very good defensive team, against which it is difficult to get a good shot early in the clock.

In other games, the only times we commonly run the shot clock down is when we're doing it on purpose to use game clock, the so-called "stall ball," but if that's what you're talking about, it has been debated back and forth on these boards for years.


Has someone actually run the Plus-minus for each player last night? Obviously you aren’t a MP3 fan, but he blocked one and altered several other VA shots as they tried to shoot over him. But who knows maybe JP will be able to guard Syracuse 7 footers by the time that game arrives.

You are incorrect, I am totally an MP3 fan. I expect him to be a solid 10 to 15 backup next season and a starter his senior season, and I'm looking forward to it. But I also know there are only 200 player-minutes available each game and I think the other options generally bring more to the table than Marshall does at this time.

In addition, I think there are people around here who are convinced that we desperately need Marshall's size and those people seem to trumpet how well he played if he simply gets on the court and doesn't fall down. I have already said I thought his D was decent last night, but his defensive rebounding has been poor all season (including last night). And yet people clamor for him to play to fix our "rebounding problem."

And despite his decent D last night, I haven't seen anything from Marshall that suggests he'd guard an offensively gifted big man (from Syracuse or anywhere else) any better than Amile would.

Finally, as I said earlier, plus/minus for one game doesn't tell us much, and when we're doing five-for-five substitutions it tells us absolutely nothing. Marshall, Andre, and Tyler all played pretty much the same 12 minutes. Why would you credit the plus/minus to Marshall and not the others?



- UVA made the decision to hedge every time we ran a high screen. This repeatedly left the screener open to crash the basket. Would have liked to have seen Amile, Parker, Jefferson, and Plumlee get some midrange jumpers out of that instead of Cook and Hood always looking to drive or get open for a 3. Amile could get 6-8 points a game off this if he can hit the short jumper and we pass him the ball.


Speaking only for myself, I don't think I want to see Amile or Marshall shooting mid-range jumpers anytime soon. It's not a high percentage shot for either of them.

[pfrduke]

This observation crystallizes one of the great mysteries about this team, and one that I share. Even though we look bad on offense, especially recently, the stats don't support that conclusion. As many have said, we are currently ranked the #2 offense in the country according to KenPom, yet our defense is back to being ranked in the 100s. So, while I agree that it feels like our offense is a problem (the shot clock hurries, the one-on-one play, Jabari's recent lack of effectiveness, Hood's tendancy to go one-on-one, our seeming predictability, etc.), we are still very highly ranked.

One thing that is improving our efficiency dramatically is the lack of turnovers. On the season we're 10th nationally at 14% turnover percentage (i.e., we turn it over roughly 1 out of every 7 possessions) and in conference play thus far it's been even better - 11.2%, with just 28 turnovers in our four games. It's been the best part of our conference offense - looking at conference games only, we're the best ACC team at turnover percentage against 3rd in EFG (hurt by our abysmal 2 pt shooting - we're 13th in the conference at 41.8%), 7th in getting to the line, and (no surprise) 14th in offensive rebounds

While low turnovers have helped our efficiency stay strong, I think it has a somewhat inverse effect on the perception of the offense. Ignoring turnovers, our offense doesn't execute that much better than opponents (or, at least, it hasn't recently). In conference play, our efficiency rating on non-turnover possessions is good but not exceptional (about 1.28, which is very similar to Florida State (1.27); Boston College is converting at 1.35, Syracuse at 1.31). But we don't throw away opportunities to score by turning the ball over. Our possessions, when they end badly, more likely end in missed shots than turnovers, and the missed shots tend to come from stagnant offense.

I don't mean to suggest by this that our offense is somehow less good overall than we've shown. However, it does suggest that if we stop turning the ball over at such a historically low rate, we'll need to improve our half-court execution (or, heaven forbid, start getting some points in transition) to stay as efficient as we've been.

[uh_no]

I basically agree with you, in that we shouldn't overreact to single wins any more than single losses, but on this specific point, had the ball not fallen in, I think Parker very likely gets the rebound and stuffs it (as I saw it, not only was he unguarded on the weak side under the rim, there wasn't anyone really close to him), so we'd still have had the lead had it not dropped, albeit by 1 instead of 2.

most likely. i think the main takeaway is that we were a roll of the dice away from losing this game....and we shouldn't let the fact that a ball or two bounced our way affect the way we analyze the rest of the game....which too often happens when folks say "give your criticism a rest...can't you enjoy a win?" (which is what i'm sure the team is doing in practice today....celebrating on a throne of victory) given there doesn't seem to be as much of that today as there is often after tight wins.

[pfrduke]

most likely. i think the main takeaway is that we were a roll of the dice away from losing this game....and we shouldn't let the fact that a ball or two bounced our way affect the way we analyze the rest of the game....which too often happens when folks say "give your criticism a rest...can't you enjoy a win?" (which is what i'm sure the team is doing in practice today....celebrating on a throne of victory) given there doesn't seem to be as much of that today as there is often after tight wins.

Part of the overall reaction, too, comes from the fact that we played like the better team for almost all but the 3-4 minute stretch at the end of the game. Yes, we put ourselves in position to lose by our play during that stretch, but it didn't seem like a bounce of the ball gave us a win we didn't deserve to have - to the contrary, I think we earned the bounce of the ball by our play through the game.* My reaction had we lost wouldn't have been, ugh, we played awful again; it would have been more disappointed that we played so well for so much of the game and still couldn't find away to win.


*I know that our play overall had absolutely nothing to do with the way the ball bounced, but still. Ball don't lie.

[Duvall]

most likely. i think the main takeaway is that we were a roll of the dice away from losing this game....

Isn't that true of every one-possession game ever?

[roywhite]

Part of the overall reaction, too, comes from the fact that we played like the better team for almost all but the 3-4 minute stretch at the end of the game. Yes, we put ourselves in position to lose by our play during that stretch, but it didn't seem like a bounce of the ball gave us a win we didn't deserve to have - to the contrary, I think we earned the bounce of the ball by our play through the game.* My reaction had we lost wouldn't have been, ugh, we played awful again; it would have been more disappointed that we played so well for so much of the game and still couldn't find away to win.


*I know that our play overall had absolutely nothing to do with the way the ball bounced, but still. Ball don't lie.

We certainly would have felt bad if we had lost that game after playing so well until UVa's late comeback. Felt bad as fans and really felt bad for our team, who all played and all put their hearts into the game.

But we somehow should let a bounced shot detract from this win? We'd deserve to feel great about it if Rasheed's shot had swished? That's just too picky.

SCOREBOARD.

....and damn happy about it.

[DukeWarhead]

so was I happy with the improvement in some areas? yes, of course. I'm not sure the performance allayed my unease about some of the things that may prove fatal in the end.

Guess what. For every team in the tournamnet, minus one, something proves fatal in the end.

[Kfanarmy]

...You are incorrect, I am totally an MP3 fan. I expect him to be a solid 10 to 15 backup next season and a starter his senior season, and I'm looking forward to it. But I also know there are only 200 player-minutes available each game and I think the other options generally bring more to the table than Marshall does at this time.

In addition, I think there are people around here who are convinced that we desperately need Marshall's size and those people seem to trumpet how well he played if he simply gets on the court and doesn't fall down. I have already said I thought his D was decent last night, but his defensive rebounding has been poor all season (including last night). And yet people clamor for him to play to fix our "rebounding problem."

And despite his decent D last night, I haven't seen anything from Marshall that suggests he'd guard an offensively gifted big man (from Syracuse or anywhere else) any better than Amile would.

Finally, as I said earlier, plus/minus for one game doesn't tell us much, and when we're doing five-for-five substitutions it tells us absolutely nothing. Marshall, Andre, and Tyler all played pretty much the same 12 minutes. Why would you credit the plus/minus to Marshall and not the others.... fan of a player you want to achieve backup status -- next year ? I haven't seen anyone on this team effectively guard an offensively "gifted" big man, but clearly JP trying to deny the post hasn't worked on several occasions; folks are simply shooting over JH. Amile is playing the best, but I think his slim build limits his ability somewhat. He's got the quickest hands and length to rebound a miss however.

I don't think the five-for-five substitution continued for the whole game...meaning that the +- for this game will be different for each player. Hard to understand why you even mention that as you then argue one game doesn't matter statistically anyway. Wouldn't that also mean his lack of rebounds last night could be statistically insignificant? IDK. The rest of MP3's "sample size" in games for this season is also too small to mean anything because he's really not been in long enough in most games to establish any kind of comfort, rhythm, etc. I think you can safely argue that any player getting scant minutes (1-2) at a time will never have a sample size that you can conclude anything on...as challenging as it may be to someone who likes statistics, sometimes the eye test has to be used when stats aren't useful. So I concur that he hasn't been rebounding well. I do think he challenges other teams interior shooting. I thought he played well against UVA and I think there are only two players on the team who have shown the ability to alter interior shots with their presence: Amile and MP3...just my take. I'm more a fan of the team so I don't really root for any of them to achieve backup status next year if they can contribute this year.

[rtnorthrup]

Last night was a pure emotion game. With the loss to Clemson on Saturday and the short turnaround, there really was no time to make substantive tactical changes to the team. Instead Coach K just willed them to win. Last night was about getting a win, by whatever means. UVa presented a lot of the same problems that Clemson posed (btw, whatever happened to the handcheck fouls that were being called earlier in the season?). We were a tired team facing a top ACC defense on short rest. You could tell Coach K was emotionally invested in the game from the beginning. I honestly can't remember seeing so much post-game emotion from a Duke team in a January home ACC contest.

IF, and I don't mean to insinuate that there will be, but if there are tactical changes to be made, my guess is that they will be started this week, since we have 4 practices before we face NC State. That is a much more realistic time frame for making offensive or defensive adjustments. I'm sure Coach K will look at his substitution patterns, his rotations, which guys play well together, etc.

[CDu]

We came into last night's game absolutely needing a win. We got that. So for that I'm extremely happy. I think a loss (especially if we'd lost the way we almost did last night) could have been devastating, both from our season's outlook as well as our team's psyche. That's the type of loss that could send a team into a spiral.

Despite the win, though, in a way I'm glad we had the letdown near the end. Had we simply won by 10-15 points in a game that we led by 5+ for most of the game, I would worry about complacency setting back in. But now Coach K has a teaching point - you can't lose your grip on the game at any point. Very few leads are safe, especially in conference play. You have to play hard and smart through the entire game.

As for the game itself:

1. I LOVED the idea to shake up the lineup and play more guys. I think it energized everybody on the team. You could see it in Matt Jones' play. You could see it in Marshall's energy, getting a block, a defensive board, and tipping a missed shot out to Hood who then drained a 3. Everybody seemed fired up, everybody seemed into the game. Heck, even Hairston got a rebound! :)

2. Despite that, I think there are still plenty of concerns with our pressure defense. Namely, we don't play pressure defense very well. Last night was not an exception. UVa missed several layups, and nearly won in spite of those missed layups. The effort was definitely better for us than against Clemson, but there is still work to do on that end of the floor.

3. Loved the "lines" concept for a second reason: it gave Sulaimon a defined role. Instead of getting lost in the shuffle alongside Hood and Parker, he got to be the go-to guy on the second unit, with Dawkins and Thornton serving as the spot-up guys and Plumlee/Hairston/Ojeleye as the dirty-work guys. I don't know if we'll see it moving forward, but it was pretty effective last night. I suspect that we fared better with that second unit than we did with the first unit.

4. We spent very little time with Hood at PF. That, I think, is a recipe for success moving forward. If we can avoid having Parker play C and Hood play PF, we're a much better team on the boards and a much better team in terms of interior defense. I think that's true regardless of whether we're talking about Jefferson, Plumlee, Hairston, or perhaps even Ojeleye. Parker and Hood just aren't interested in banging inside, either to hold defensive position or to get defensive rebounds. Those other four are willing and able to do that dirty work. Ultimately, I think a rotation of Jefferson for 25-30 mpg, Plumlee for 10-15 mpg, and Hairston/Ojeleye for 5 mpg is a good way to keep Parker and Hood fresh and able to focus on what they do best. Last night we basically saw that, with Jefferson getting 28 mpg, Plumlee getting 12 mpg, and Hairston/Ojeleye getting 9 mpg. I hope we continue to see that moving forward.

5. Speaking of Jefferson, he had a great game. Sure, he missed a few assignments on ball screens, but he killed it on the glass on both ends of the floor. His willingness to do the dirty work and do it well has been huge for this team. And he's become quite a rebounder this year.

6. Welcome back Sulaimon! As I mentioned above, he clearly thrived in the role of go-to guy on the second unit. 21 points in 24 minutes is fantastic.

7. I thought that, aside from a few minutes late in the game, this was perhaps Cook's worst game of the season. His shot selection was poor. He was sloppy with the ball. He wasn't creating much off the dribble. And he was getting beaten off the dribble on defense. Once we get the rest of the guys' roles figured out, we'll need him to return to playing better to steer the ship.

8. Parker is a phenomenal talent, but right now he's running into some of the same hurdles that Rivers faced at Duke. Namely, that he's facing more capable and better-coached defenses who are prepared to challenge him when he attacks off the dribble. His response has been to settle for jumpers (often the off-balance kind). He's probably going to need to ditch hero ball for a while and start (a) passing out of double/triple teams and (b) working off the ball to get easier looks. It's a learning process for any freshman, and hopefully he figures it out.

9. Hood has clearly benefited from the extra attention being paid to Parker. And he's started to do a better job of attacking the basket again (rather than just relying on 3pt shots). For him, it's going to be a constant balancing act: do I take the open 3, or do I attack the basket?

Still plenty of work to do, but it was nice to see us respond early to our poor play over the weekend. Hopefully this is just the beginning of things to come!

[bbosbbos]

imho, Parker is the best freshman in the nation. However, he's struggling now.

His performance always looks like this in the last few games:

1. At the beginning of every game, he tried playing down low once or twice to test opponents' D. Usually 2 or 3 opponent players clogged the lane or blocked his shot.

2. Then he tried to do some very difficult jump shots, including 3 and long 2s.

3. Afterwards, he tried to make some plays by passing.

4. Then he disappeared in O for a long time. In D, he grabbed few D rebounds to contribute.

5. When opponents caught up or led the game. Our whole team lost confidence. Teammates were looking at Parker. He responded by going inside and played hero ball. Teammates were watching, not helping. Very often his shots did not go in due to tough D.

6. Lost the game or became a close one.

Frankly say, his struggle is caused by bad shot selection, weak D. And his teammates seldom ran to his back to establish inside-out O.

[azzefkram]

Virginia was the hottest team in the ACC coming into this game, and is ranked #17 by Pomeroy (i.e., 5 spots better than Duke). I believe UVa was also ranked pre-season, so it's not like their recent stellar play was a fluke. They are far, far better than "mediocre."

I think they were 16 before we played them. We knocked them down a peg. :D




Against Virginia, we were running the shot clock down the entire game, as many of UVa's opponents do, because Virginia is a very good defensive team, against which it is difficult to get a good shot early in the clock.

I agree. I think too many people are sleeping on Virginia. Aside from Arizona and Kansas, Virginia was the best team we played. I'm too lazy to look it up again but I think we pretty much out performed their numbers across the board.



In addition, I think there are people around here who are convinced that we desperately need Marshall's size and those people seem to trumpet how well he played if he simply gets on the court and doesn't fall down. I have already said I thought his D was decent last night, but his defensive rebounding has been poor all season (including last night). And yet people clamor for him to play to fix our "rebounding problem."

And despite his decent D last night, I haven't seen anything from Marshall that suggests he'd guard an offensively gifted big man (from Syracuse or anywhere else) any better than Amile would.

Finally, as I said earlier, plus/minus for one game doesn't tell us much, and when we're doing five-for-five substitutions it tells us absolutely nothing. Marshall, Andre, and Tyler all played pretty much the same 12 minutes. Why would you credit the plus/minus to Marshall and not the others?

I think you are selling Marshall short on the defensive end. He does a really good job of staying in front of his man and bodying him off the block without fouling. He is not an elite defender but I think he would do a better job than Amile against a offensively gifted big man just because he wouldn't be giving up so much bulk. I do think Amile has gotten better defending the post.

Marshall's rebounding is problematic. I can't remember seeing a player get into good rebounding position as often as Marshall does and not get the rebound. Maybe it's hyperactivity, maybe they butter his hands. It's a puzzle. I think many were/are clamoring for Marshall because, as bad as Marshall's been, he's still significantly better than Josh.



Speaking only for myself, I don't think I want to see Amile or Marshall shooting mid-range jumpers anytime soon. It's not a high percentage shot for either of them.

I wouldn't want Amile to make a habit of it but I don't think it would be cringe worthy.

[CDu]

fan of a player you want to achieve backup status -- next year ? I haven't seen anyone on this team effectively guard an offensively "gifted" big man, but clearly JP trying to deny the post hasn't worked on several occasions; folks are simply shooting over JH. Amile is playing the best, but I think his slim build limits his ability somewhat. He's got the quickest hands and length to rebound a miss however.

I don't think the five-for-five substitution continued for the whole game...meaning that the +- for this game will be different for each player. Hard to understand why you even mention that as you then argue one game doesn't matter statistically anyway. Wouldn't that also mean his lack of rebounds last night could be statistically insignificant? IDK. The rest of MP3's "sample size" in games for this season is also too small to mean anything because he's really not been in long enough in most games to establish any kind of comfort, rhythm, etc. I think you can safely argue that any player getting scant minutes (1-2) at a time will never have a sample size that you can conclude anything on...as challenging as it may be to someone who likes statistics, sometimes the eye test has to be used when stats aren't useful. So I concur that he hasn't been rebounding well. I do think he challenges other teams interior shooting. I thought he played well against UVA and I think there are only two players on the team who have shown the ability to alter interior shots with their presence: Amile and MP3...just my take. I'm more a fan of the team so I don't really root for any of them to achieve backup status next year if they can contribute this year.

Count me in the group that thought Plumlee played well last night. Also count me in the group that thinks statistics aren't really useful given Plumlee's VERY limited action - that applies to ALL of his statistics. He hasn't produced much statistically, but he seems to be in the right spots and he is certainly challenging and altering shots on defense.

None of this is to suggest that he should start. But I think he brings more to the table at this point than, say, Hairston. And I think he's absolutely a better option at C than Parker. I think that the C position moving forward this year should be Jefferson and Plumlee, with Jefferson taking the vast majority and Plumlee taking the lesser share. But if we can get 40 solid mpg from those two at C, I think that's where this team reaches its ceiling.

[Kedsy]

fan of a player you want to achieve backup status -- next year ?

Why should being a fan preclude having realistic expectations of his playing time? My favorite player on the team is Andre Dawkins and yet I'm not clamoring for him to start.

And, wait, do you really think Marshall will start next year over Jahlil Okafor? If not, then you think he's going to be a backup, too. As do most people, would be my guess.

If Marshall plays close to 10 mpg this season, I'll be thrilled. If he plays significantly more than that, I'll be surprised.

[roywhite]

Last night was a pure emotion game. With the loss to Clemson on Saturday and the short turnaround, there really was no time to make substantive tactical changes to the team. Instead Coach K just willed them to win. Last night was about getting a win, by whatever means. UVa presented a lot of the same problems that Clemson posed (btw, whatever happened to the handcheck fouls that were being called earlier in the season?). We were a tired team facing a top ACC defense on short rest. You could tell Coach K was emotionally invested in the game from the beginning. I honestly can't remember seeing so much post-game emotion from a Duke team in a January home ACC contest.

IF, and I don't mean to insinuate that there will be, but if there are tactical changes to be made, my guess is that they will be started this week, since we have 4 practices before we face NC State. That is a much more realistic time frame for making offensive or defensive adjustments. I'm sure Coach K will look at his substitution patterns, his rotations, which guys play well together, etc.

Well, sorry, but I'd say the use of full-platoon substituting was a tactical change, and a big one.

I do agree that this week is a key practice week. Going from Monday to Saturday for the next game, no travel, and being early in the academic semester allows for a good stretch of practice. Based on what we saw last night, the motivation level of the players and coaches is high. I expect the team to play well Saturday vs NCSU and am eager to see whether the platoon system survives or just what the gameplan is.

[sagegrouse]

Well, sorry, but I'd say the use of full-platoon substituting was a tactical change, and a big one.

I do agree that this week is a key practice week. Going from Monday to Saturday for the next game, no travel, and being early in the academic semester allows for a good stretch of practice. Based on what we saw last night, the motivation level of the players and coaches is high. I expect the team to play well Saturday vs NCSU and am eager to see whether the platoon system survives or just what the gameplan is.

The platoon system was a big change.

Not only did it allow the first-tem players to play with greater energy, it also enable Duke to run a pressure defense against the Wahoos, which helped immensely until the last four minutes.

sage

[El_Diablo]

Has someone actually run the Plus-minus for each player last night? Obviously you aren’t a MP3 fan, but he blocked one and altered several other VA shots as they tried to shoot over him.

Yes, SCACCHoops runs these numbers. Marshall's +/- was the highest on the team last night, at +11.


Finally, as I said earlier, plus/minus for one game doesn't tell us much, and when we're doing five-for-five substitutions it tells us absolutely nothing. Marshall, Andre, and Tyler all played pretty much the same 12 minutes. Why would you credit the plus/minus to Marshall and not the others?

Because they were not actually in the game at the exact same times for the entire game. You credit the plus/minus to those actually on the court, and when Marshall was on the court, we were +11. When Andre was on the court, we were +10. When Tyler was on the court, we were +6. When Amile was on the court, we were -6.

As far as lineups, the top 4 combinations (in terms of +/-) all had Plumlee in them. The worst 4 combinations (in terms of +/-) all had Jefferson in them. Does this mean that Plumlee should be starting over Jefferson and playing 40 mpg? No. Definitely no. But it suggests that he may be bringing something extra to the table when he's in there. I agree that one game's worth of +/- does not tell us much, but if Marshall continues to rack up high +/- numbers, it would be foolish to continue to say that those numbers are not relevant. I remember early in the 09-10 season, Zoubek's +/- numbers stood out as very good despite the low playing time. This was way before the Maryland game, when he started getting the minutes to show it to the skeptics more focused on total rebounds or some other metric. If people want to continue to think that, e.g., Plumlee's tipped rebound to Hood for an open three is not relevant because Hood was given credit for the rebound rather than Plumlee, then fine. Same for Plumlee's tipped rebound to Semi--doesn't show up on the box score, so Plumlee did not really do much there. Okay, but I will continue to think he adds value, even where he doesn't produce a measurable stat on the box score.

You take particular issue with his defensive rebounding. I actually think he is an asset in that respect, even last night when his individual numbers did not show much. If you watch him when the shot goes up, he generally puts his head down and searches out the nearest opponent and works to get in position and seal him off. Amile, on the other hand, tends to watch the ball in flight and float to the rim sometimes. It gets Amile rebounds, but it also allows people to come in for offensive boards. I started commenting on it in the in-game chat because Amile was doing it so often--even on a free throw, where he just turned and stepped towards the rim (and gave up an o-board to the guy he should have boxed out). I am not saying there is not value to Amile's ball-hawking approach, because it lets him grab some boards that others might not get and because when he does box out he sometimes just gets pushed under the rim due to his size (which happened a few times last night). But to say Marshall is a poor defensive rebounder because he doesn't personally end up grabbing the rebound is doing a disservice to his effort (which is clearly there) and the results (which may mean someone else on our team gets the rebound). He's clearly not perfect on the glass, but I think he's better than he is getting credit for.

All that said, I am fine with Marshall getting 12 minutes per game like he did last night vs. Amile's 28.

[uh_no]

Isn't that true of every one-possession game ever?

yep. which is why using whether one won or lost as the starting point for analyzing a game is silly.

[CDu]

Yes, SCACCHoops runs these numbers. Marshall's +/- was the highest on the team last night, at +11.

Because they were not actually in the game at the exact same times for the entire game. You credit the plus/minus to those actually on the court, and when Marshall was on the court, we were +11. When Andre was on the court, we were +10. When Tyler was on the court, we were +6. When Amile was on the court, we were -6.

As far as lineups, the top 4 combinations (in terms of +/-) all had Plumlee in them. The worst 4 combinations (in terms of +/-) all had Jefferson in them. Does this mean that Plumlee should be starting over Jefferson and playing 40 mpg? No. Definitely no. But it suggests that he may be bringing something extra to the table when he's in there. I agree that one game's worth of +/- does not tell us much, but if Marshall continues to rack up high +/- numbers, it would be foolish to continue to say that those numbers are not relevant. I remember early in the 09-10 season, Zoubek's +/- numbers stood out as very good despite the low playing time. This was way before the Maryland game, when he started getting the minutes to show it to the skeptics more focused on total rebounds or some other metric. If people want to continue to think that, e.g., Plumlee's tipped rebound to Hood for an open three is not relevant because Hood was given credit for the rebound rather than Plumlee, then fine. Same for Plumlee's tipped rebound to Semi--doesn't show up on the box score, so Plumlee did not really do much there. Okay, but I will continue to think he adds value, even where he doesn't produce a measurable stat on the box score.

You take particular issue with his defensive rebounding. I actually think he is an asset in that respect, even last night when his individual numbers did not show much. If you watch him when the shot goes up, he generally puts his head down and searches out the nearest opponent and works to get in position and seal him off. Amile, on the other hand, tends to watch the ball in flight and float to the rim sometimes. It gets Amile rebounds, but it also allows people to come in for offensive boards. I started commenting on it in the in-game chat because Amile was doing it so often--even on a free throw, where he just turned and stepped towards the rim (and gave up an o-board to the guy he should have boxed out). I am not saying there is not value to Amile's ball-hawking approach, because it lets him grab some boards that others might not get and because when he does box out he sometimes just gets pushed under the rim due to his size (which happened a few times last night). But to say Marshall is a poor defensive rebounder because he doesn't personally end up grabbing the rebound is doing a disservice to his effort (which is clearly there) and the results (which may mean someone else on our team gets the rebound). He's clearly not perfect on the glass, but I think he's better than he is getting credit for.

All that said, I am fine with Marshall getting 12 minutes per game like he did last night vs. Amile's 28.

I can't recommend this post enough. It summarizes my thoughts on the matter exactly.

I thought Plumlee had a very solid game last night. I'm not a +/- fan, and I think looking at it overstates his play last night. But I thought it very clear that he provided more in his minutes last night than can be found in his stat line.

And I completely agree with your comments on Plumlee's defensive rebounding role. I think what he provides is the ability and willingness to box out hard along with the ability and willingness to challenge shots at the rim. Jefferson provides some ability to challenge shots at the rim and some great hands and go-go-gadget-arms, but he doesn't box out and I don't think he'd be great at it if he focused on doing that. Hairston boxes out well but can't challenge shots and can't go up and get rebounds.

From an interior defense perspective, I think a Plumlee/Jefferson duo would be incredibly dynamic. Both could challenge shots around the rim. Plumlee could be in charge of putting a body on the opposing team's big rebounder, while Jefferson could be in charge of "going and getting it" on missed shots. I suspect that opposing teams would have a great deal of trouble scoring around the basket, and I'd suspect opponents would get VERY few second-chance points. Whether or not it could work on the other end, I don't know. Obviously neither can shoot outside of 3 feet, so they'd be screener/rebounders on offense. It would put a lot of pressure on the perimeter guys. But it could work.

But, that's just a thought experiment. We aren't going to go with a primary lineup that doesn't include Parker. I would like to see our lineup include 10-15 minutes per game of Plumlee though, along with 25-30 mpg of Jefferson.

[throatybeard]

Kind of funny, if you think about it. After all the angst and supposition about the changes to come, Coach K came up with something none of us even dreamed of. The big question is whether we'll continue the two line thing in future games.

Cue speculation about whether Coach K will become the next coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

[BD80]

So, um...did anyone else think that we were a better team this game when Jabari wasn't on the floor? ...

Coach K. Jabari was on the bench most of the last 5 minutes


Parker is a freshman going through a slump. Nothing more. It's all mental. He'll be totally fine.

There is a lot to it. Physical in that he is playing against guys bigger and older than him, practicing every day longer and harder than he ever has. Add the mental/emotional toll of his first year of being challenged academically at such a high level while traveling practicing and playing - it will take some adjustment.

Of course unc players are completely isolated from the emotional/mental toll of academics.


That woulda been a double digit loss if we were at their place, so thank goodness for Cameron. ...

Bilas even noted how quiet (comparatively) Cameron was. Of course, he is one of us old alums that remember when the Crazies were so good that we tilted the floor to make loose balls roll toward our players.


K said on the radio interview post-game that the assistants urged him to play more guys so that everyone would go all-out, and he agreed to do it.

Kudos to the assistants. It seems THEY read these boards! The blue team is well thought out, Rasheed being the offensive leader, having Andre to dish to once he draws the D in, having Marshall for energy and rebounding, and Josh and Tyler to play D and keep things on track.


By that logic Semi, who got 2 rebounds in 2 minutes, should be playing more than Amile.

Either use stats or don't, but be consistent. I don't mind him getting some of Josh's minutes on the blue team.


... Marshall played reasonably well tonight, but he didn't show me anything that suggests he should be playing more minutes.

The energy and the blocked shot were enough for me.


... I haven't seen anything from Marshall that suggests he'd guard an offensively gifted big man (from Syracuse or anywhere else) any better than Amile would. ...

But Amile can't guard for 40 minutes. Marshall is far better (and more expendable from a foul standpoint) than option #2.

[Kfanarmy]

...And, wait, do you really think Marshall will start next year over Jahlil Okafor? If not, then you think he's going to be a backup, too. As do most people, would be my guess..... worrying about next year in a January post-UVA-Duke matchup thread is your gig. I'm hoping he'll be developed as much as possible so THIS team can go as far as possible. I'll meet you back here to wring our hands over PT for next year's team after this one wins an NCAA tournament game or 6.

[wilson]

yep. which is why using whether one won or lost as the starting point for analyzing a game is silly.Funny...I thought that was, like, the whole point.

[CDu]

Funny...I thought that was, like, the whole point.

If you're only interested in analyzing the end result, then sure: whether we won or lost matters. If you're interested in analyzing the process (as part of a "looking forward" approach), then no.

From the perspective of winning or losing, I'm very pleased with last night's result. But from a perspective of "how well the team played", the actual W/L result doesn't matter much.

[rsvman]

...Finally, as I said earlier, plus/minus for one game doesn't tell us much, and when we're doing five-for-five substitutions it tells us absolutely nothing. Marshall, Andre, and Tyler all played pretty much the same 12 minutes. Why would you credit the plus/minus to Marshall and not the others?....

This is a problem with the plus/minus system in general; why would you EVER attribute the team's advantage to any one player when there are ALWAYS five guys playing? This is the fundamental limitation of the plus/minus. I don't think the team-for-team substitution thing plays into it at all. All it tells us is that our team scored more points than did the other team when Marshall was in the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

You're probably going to say that if the remaining players were subbed in and out a lot, and Marshall retained a positive plus/minus that that would tell us more about Marshall's contribution. I'm going to counter that that's nothing more than an over-interpretation of what plus-minus means. Put Marshall on the Heat for one night, have him play the entire game, but rotate the other 11 players randomly. Oh, and have the Heat play against your local high school team. In this scenario, Marshall's plus/minus would be astronomical, and it still probably wouldn't be reflecting his actual value to the team.

In short, plus-minus is perfectly fine, but tends to be overinterpreted.

[bob blue devil]

Virginia was the hottest team in the ACC coming into this game, and is ranked #17 by Pomeroy (i.e., 5 spots better than Duke). I believe UVa was also ranked pre-season, so it's not like their recent stellar play was a fluke. They are far, far better than "mediocre."


I'll concede that mediocre is too harsh - they're roughly the equivalent of a 7 seed. We barely pulled out a home win against an opponent we'd be lucky to see in the round of 32. I don't see how that is particularly good news unless your expectations are lower than mine. I'm still optimistic things get better for us.

p.s. hottest/stellar play is a big stretch - two weeks ago they lost by 35 to an unranked team and since then they've beaten FSU, WFU, and NCSU... so just 1 decent win. No need to exaggerate to make your point.

[Duvall]

I'll concede that mediocre is too harsh - they're roughly the equivalent of a 7 seed.

Based on what?

[Chard]

First of all - and I respect the many knowledgeable fans on this board - but if you really want to get the straight scoop, just go listen to K's post game pressers. One of the main things I hate about road games is that they don't upload the post game stuff on GoDuke.com.

But anyway, K made a real effort to place the blame for the team's recent poor play squarely on himself (due to his being "knocked back" as he said) since Dec. 26. I certainly don't know Coach personally, but I really had wondered to what extent his brother's death had affected him. Well, apparently, according to the man himself - it's affected him greatly. I also heard for the first time tonight on the ESPN broadcast tonight, that Bill K's death was "unexpected". So, that event was a big, big deal folks. Let's all try to remember that before posting stuff like, "One of K's worst coaching jobs". I do think there's something to the idea that K hasn't been at his best lately, but I feel for him and hope things get better for him personally as he goes through the grieving process.

Having said all that, I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED the heart and effort tonight. Reading this thread, I swear I'm not sure I watched the same game some other posters did, but the Duke TEAM that showed up tonight really made me happy and proud. Amile was just amazing on a bunch of levels - as was Rasheed.

One final thought, I know this is a fan message board and heck, I can be pretty negative and critical myself, but I really wish people would stop ragging on TT and Josh. They bust their butts whenever they're on the court and really seem to give it their all every minute they're in a game. They're not the most talented players on the team, but I'd take 100 Tylers and Josh's any day of the week. And I want to make one specific point about Thornton - yes he fouls a lot (and especially for a senior) BUT, I would guess that 90% of the time, Tyler gets his money's worth. In other words, if his man is going to the hoop, you can bet that TT will foul him hard enough to make sure there's no "And 1". When guys do some silly slap on the arm as their man is dunking the ball, it drives me NUTS! Tyler is smarter than that, so cut the kid some slack, huh?

Not sure why I can't leave a comment as I'm continually prevented from doing so and asked to login. So I'll just take it public and say what a great post, Chris. Count me in on the make-a-foul-count camp. I thought the take down of the UVA player near the end of the game was a wise choice once TT was beaten.

Also, I really liked how the "role" players stepped up and won this game. I was happy at the end of the game, even with the near collapse at the end. A good win over a great UVA squad.

[Matches]

I'll concede that mediocre is too harsh - they're roughly the equivalent of a 7 seed. We barely pulled out a home win against an opponent we'd be lucky to see in the round of 32. I don't see how that is particularly good news unless your expectations are lower than mine. I'm still optimistic things get better for us.


I've no idea where they'll eventually be seeded but as noted KenPom has UVa at #17, which is the equivalent of a #5 seed. They're a good team. Hopefully we're all always optimistic that things will get better.


p.s. hottest/stellar play is a big stretch - two weeks ago they lost by 35 to an unranked team and since then they've beaten FSU, WFU, and NCSU... so just 1 decent win. No need to exaggerate to make your point.

I don't think it's a stretch or an exaggeration. They came in tied for 1st and undefeated in the ACC, and 2 days before playing us they destroyed NC State by 31 in Raleigh. Mediocre though State may be, winning an ACC road game by 31 is not a small feat.

[77devil]

WOW. Apparently I watched a different game, perhaps in a parallel universe. I'm going to stop reading DBR tonight and go back to the wonderful feeling of seeing a team that was really excited about winning a game as a team, with some very different strategies employed in about a one-hour practice (per Coach K's radio interview). That's impressive, IMHO.

Cautiously optimistic is more like it. Plenty of posters while pleased are concerned that the team was in a position to lose the game after giving up another big lead in the 2nd half. That pattern justifiably tempers euphoria.


I don't understand why anybody is complaining about our offense. According to Pomeroy, we're #2 in the nation, and pretty darn close to #1. And tonight, I felt good about our defense as well.

Every team has its Achilles Heel, and I've been under the assumption that team defense is this team's bugaboo, but now I'm wondering if it's actually something else.

Mid- or Late-second half runs:

Kansas 15-4
Vermont 10-0
Arizona 19-6
Notre Dame 20-4
Clemson 18-5
Virginia 13-1

During those runs, our defense was poor and our decision-making was poor, and our offense generally became a stagnant festival of ill-conceived one-on-one moves or out-of-rhythm three-point attempts. But this team is too talented to think that doing everything wrong is a physical or basketball weakness. It's clearly psychological.

If the players can learn to not let an opponent's run get in their heads, and to respond calmly, with maturity, then we're as good as any team in the country. I think tonight's game was a great first step in that direction. After Virginia came all the way back, we did what we needed to do and grabbed the victory with both hands.

I think you answered your own question exactly right. It's the 2nd half runs and how the offense has deteriorated during these periods that's the concern. Like uh_no writes below we were a bounce away from likely losing on our court, but like you I think this team has significant upside and can compete at a championship level. I am circumspect for now, however.


not to ruin the party....but I think a lot of people's opinions are highly clouded by the fact that the basketball gods gave rasheed the bounce of a lifetime...and had that not fallen, we would have had a pretty good chance of losing this game....and everyone here would be moping about the end of the world....

i choose NOT to take that view...i'm going to mope about the end of the world anyway!

things that still wen't pretty poorly:
defense: we surrendered 105 pts/100pos on defense....this is STILL worse than our adjusted efficiency on the year, and even though it was not as atrocious as the performance in some of the losses, it's still pretty bad....and uva's offense is simply not that good....they are outside the top 100 in the country.

crunch time offense: we seem to forget how to play offense in the last 10 minutes of the game, allowing, as someone has pointed out, a now very situation of giving up a big run late....we seem to get nothing done for the 25 seconds of the shotclock, and then someone tries to break down the defense in ISO....just because the clock is down under 15 does not mean you can stop moving without the ball....this happens consistently game to game when we're up near the end....and every time we stop scoring....this team is about as bad as playing stall ball as any team i've seen at duke, and the late runs back that up


so is there some rosiness? yeah....given i'm not going to really change my outlook on the team until there is marked improvement in the above two points...

amile: killed it on the boards, scored some points....great game....

rebounding in general: MUCH better...still a few times where guys gave up on rebounds, started heading down the court, and allowed for easy put backs for uva....you can't give up on boxing out because nobody seems behind you...there was one instance i remember where i think it was sheed allowed a guy to come flying in (and sheed ended up fouling him...) to grab a rebound....but it was BETTER....and that's a start

marshall: doesn't show up in the stats, but watching the game, the man changes our look on the floor....there were several times on rebounds when he didn't end up with it, but he clearly takes his man away from the rebound, allowing someone else to get it. he's a big guy....he can say "you will not get this rebound...i don't care if I don't, but you won't either" and it results in someone from duke having the chance to snag it. this is extremely valuable IMO

lineups: loved to see the lineups get mixed up....not sure why...but i liked it....

so was I happy with the improvement in some areas? yes, of course. I'm not sure the performance allayed my unease about some of the things that may prove fatal in the end.

This pretty much sums up my sentiment which is why I am cautiously optimistic.

[oldnavy]

Part of the overall reaction, too, comes from the fact that we played like the better team for almost all but the 3-4 minute stretch at the end of the game. Yes, we put ourselves in position to lose by our play during that stretch, but it didn't seem like a bounce of the ball gave us a win we didn't deserve to have - to the contrary, I think we earned the bounce of the ball by our play through the game.* My reaction had we lost wouldn't have been, ugh, we played awful again; it would have been more disappointed that we played so well for so much of the game and still couldn't find away to win.


*I know that our play overall had absolutely nothing to do with the way the ball bounced, but still. Ball don't lie.

Everybody remembers Austin River's dead on three to win at UNC, but what about the bounce when Zeller tipped in the airball for us.... we really didn't play better than UNC that game, but I don't know of any Duke fan that wasn't happy, happy, happy over that game.

[Kfanarmy]

This is a problem with the plus/minus system in general; why would you EVER attribute the team's advantage to any one player when there are ALWAYS five guys playing? This is the fundamental limitation of the plus/minus. I don't think the team-for-team substitution thing plays into it at all. All it tells us is that our team scored more points than did the other team when Marshall was in the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

You're probably going to say that if the remaining players were subbed in and out a lot, and Marshall retained a positive plus/minus that that would tell us more about Marshall's contribution. I'm going to counter that that's nothing more than an over-interpretation of what plus-minus means. Put Marshall on the Heat for one night, have him play the entire game, but rotate the other 11 players randomly. Oh, and have the Heat play against your local high school team. In this scenario, Marshall's plus/minus would be astronomical, and it still probably wouldn't be reflecting his actual value to the team.

In short, plus-minus is perfectly fine, but tends to be overinterpreted. If Marshall had the highest +-, or lowest for that matter, it would still indicate performance relative to his team mates for the enitirety of the game. Not sure I get your point here. No one is suggesting he won the game, but rather that he was a positive contributor.

[CDu]

If Marshall had the highest +-, or lowest for that matter, it would still indicate performance relative to his team mates for the enitirety of the game. Not sure I get your point here. No one is suggesting he won the game, but rather that he was a positive contributor.

Not really. It would indicate that the team happened to have produced better results during the time that he was on the floor compared to others. Not quite the same thing as a measure of HIS performance relative to his teammates' performances.

I agree that he was a positive contributor. And I don't know if rsvman was making the argument that Plumlee wasn't a positive contributor. I think rsvman's point was simply that +/- isn't really a great tool for measuring an individual's performance, because the stat doesn't really measure that at all. It's at best a proxy measure of individual performance, and a VERY flawed proxy at that.

[uh_no]

Everybody remembers Austin River's dead on three to win at UNC, but what about the bounce when Zeller tipped in the airball for us.... we really didn't play better than UNC that game, but I don't know of any Duke fan that wasn't happy, happy, happy over that game.

there are only a few situations where the "how you played" thing goes out the window

1) tournament time.....who cares if you played well and lost....because your season is over....who cares if you played lousy and won...because it's better than the alternative

2) UNC....i don't care if we shoot 10% from the floor, jack up threes, and have 50 turnovers....beating carolina is always the objective...second only to winning titles.

[Kfanarmy]

yep. which is why using whether one won or lost as the starting point for analyzing a game is silly.



Funny...I thought that was, like, the whole point.

Yep...there's also a lot more emotion exhibited in vanquishing an opponent than there is in establishing a new points per possession or OR%, etc. Not sure why, but just seems people like to win more than they like statistics.

[pfrduke]

Everybody remembers Austin River's dead on three to win at UNC, but what about the bounce when Zeller tipped in the airball for us.... we really didn't play better than UNC that game, but I don't know of any Duke fan that wasn't happy, happy, happy over that game.

Well sure, but I think we all also felt like we stole that game.

[vick]

there are only a few situations where the "how you played" thing goes out the window

1) tournament time.....who cares if you played well and lost....because your season is over....who cares if you played lousy and won...because it's better than the alternative

2) UNC....i don't care if we shoot 10% from the floor, jack up threes, and have 50 turnovers....beating carolina is always the objective...second only to winning titles.

eh...I mean, from an analytical standpoint, I totally agree--you shouldn't like decide to radically change your game plan because you won by 2 vs. lost by 2. But in the real world, well first, winning is fun!, but second, the tournament selection committee looks at wins and losses. Maybe they shouldn't and should focus entirely on (more predictively accurate) Pomeroy, Sagarin predictor, and the like (I actually don't think they should, though reasonable people could definitely disagree with me), but at the end of the day, wins and losses get you better tournament locations, easier first and second round opponents, etc. So celebrate the wins!

[oldnavy]

there are only a few situations where the "how you played" thing goes out the window

1) tournament time.....who cares if you played well and lost....because your season is over....who cares if you played lousy and won...because it's better than the alternative

2) UNC....i don't care if we shoot 10% from the floor, jack up threes, and have 50 turnovers....beating carolina is always the objective...second only to winning titles.

AMEN!!

[Neals384]

What was funny is after UVA took the lead 65-64 I was getting ready to post my complete distaste for this team and put the L squarely on Sulaimon's shoulders (giving up the 3pt play, throwing the ball awwy at mid-court, missing a big FT), but WOW was that a big 3.


Throwing the ball away at mid-court - that one's not on Rasheed. Sure it's a mistake to pick up your dribble like that. But when it happens it's the point guard's job to come get the ball - he has 5 seconds to get there.

[rsvman]

If Marshall had the highest +-, or lowest for that matter, it would still indicate performance relative to his team mates for the enitirety of the game. Not sure I get your point here. No one is suggesting he won the game, but rather that he was a positive contributor.

I was actually attempting to directly refute Kedsy's argument that the plus/minus was particularly worthless last night because of the substitution pattern. I was arguing that it is no better and no worse in that setting than it is in any other. CDu's post sums up the idea pretty well, too.

I was certainly not arguing that Marshall didn't contribute to the win. I have been a supporter of Marshall throughout, and thought he did exactly what we needed him to do last night.

[jv001]

We came into last night's game absolutely needing a win. We got that. So for that I'm extremely happy. I think a loss (especially if we'd lost the way we almost did last night) could have been devastating, both from our season's outlook as well as our team's psyche. That's the type of loss that could send a team into a spiral.

Despite the win, though, in a way I'm glad we had the letdown near the end. Had we simply won by 10-15 points in a game that we led by 5+ for most of the game, I would worry about complacency setting back in. But now Coach K has a teaching point - you can't lose your grip on the game at any point. Very few leads are safe, especially in conference play. You have to play hard and smart through the entire game.

As for the game itself:

1. I LOVED the idea to shake up the lineup and play more guys. I think it energized everybody on the team. You could see it in Matt Jones' play. You could see it in Marshall's energy, getting a block, a defensive board, and tipping a missed shot out to Hood who then drained a 3. Everybody seemed fired up, everybody seemed into the game. Heck, even Hairston got a rebound! :)

2. Despite that, I think there are still plenty of concerns with our pressure defense. Namely, we don't play pressure defense very well. Last night was not an exception. UVa missed several layups, and nearly won in spite of those missed layups. The effort was definitely better for us than against Clemson, but there is still work to do on that end of the floor.

3. Loved the "lines" concept for a second reason: it gave Sulaimon a defined role. Instead of getting lost in the shuffle alongside Hood and Parker, he got to be the go-to guy on the second unit, with Dawkins and Thornton serving as the spot-up guys and Plumlee/Hairston/Ojeleye as the dirty-work guys. I don't know if we'll see it moving forward, but it was pretty effective last night. I suspect that we fared better with that second unit than we did with the first unit.

4. We spent very little time with Hood at PF. That, I think, is a recipe for success moving forward. If we can avoid having Parker play C and Hood play PF, we're a much better team on the boards and a much better team in terms of interior defense. I think that's true regardless of whether we're talking about Jefferson, Plumlee, Hairston, or perhaps even Ojeleye. Parker and Hood just aren't interested in banging inside, either to hold defensive position or to get defensive rebounds. Those other four are willing and able to do that dirty work. Ultimately, I think a rotation of Jefferson for 25-30 mpg, Plumlee for 10-15 mpg, and Hairston/Ojeleye for 5 mpg is a good way to keep Parker and Hood fresh and able to focus on what they do best. Last night we basically saw that, with Jefferson getting 28 mpg, Plumlee getting 12 mpg, and Hairston/Ojeleye getting 9 mpg. I hope we continue to see that moving forward.

5. Speaking of Jefferson, he had a great game. Sure, he missed a few assignments on ball screens, but he killed it on the glass on both ends of the floor. His willingness to do the dirty work and do it well has been huge for this team. And he's become quite a rebounder this year.

6. Welcome back Sulaimon! As I mentioned above, he clearly thrived in the role of go-to guy on the second unit. 21 points in 24 minutes is fantastic.

7. I thought that, aside from a few minutes late in the game, this was perhaps Cook's worst game of the season. His shot selection was poor. He was sloppy with the ball. He wasn't creating much off the dribble. And he was getting beaten off the dribble on defense. Once we get the rest of the guys' roles figured out, we'll need him to return to playing better to steer the ship.

8. Parker is a phenomenal talent, but right now he's running into some of the same hurdles that Rivers faced at Duke. Namely, that he's facing more capable and better-coached defenses who are prepared to challenge him when he attacks off the dribble. His response has been to settle for jumpers (often the off-balance kind). He's probably going to need to ditch hero ball for a while and start (a) passing out of double/triple teams and (b) working off the ball to get easier looks. It's a learning process for any freshman, and hopefully he figures it out.

9. Hood has clearly benefited from the extra attention being paid to Parker. And he's started to do a better job of attacking the basket again (rather than just relying on 3pt shots). For him, it's going to be a constant balancing act: do I take the open 3, or do I attack the basket?

Still plenty of work to do, but it was nice to see us respond early to our poor play over the weekend. Hopefully this is just the beginning of things to come!

I completely agree with 1-9 on your post. Great job.
1. Great job by our assistant coaches in getting Coach K's attention and playing 2 units. Putting Rasheed on that unit let him be the creator on offense and putting Matt on the first unit, gave the first unit a good perimeter defender.
2. We still let some guys drive by us. Quinn, Tyler and Rasheed. We struggle with the pressure out front.
3. See #1 regarding Rasheed.
4. Moving Jabari off the 5 and Hood off the 4 helped really helped on defense and possibly gave them more energy on offense. I hope we see that moving forward.
5. Amile is a relentless rebounder and deserves high praise for his hard work.
6. It was evident that Rasheed liked being the #1 option with the 2nd group. I like having him with the ball in his hands more than Quinn. I know he's not an elite point guard, but he has the tools to be a very good one with more work.
7. Quinn was having a bad game until about 5 minutes to go and he played well for a short stretch that probably saved the game as much as Rasheed did in the end. But he still has work to do on his on the ball defense and stopping some of his lazy passes. Plus he missed Amile 2 or 3 times on the pick and roll.
8. Good catch on the comparison of Jabari and Austin. Jabari will get out of his so called slump when he passes out of this double and triple team defense to another player. He needs to do it quickly and not over think the situation. We have too much dribbling as it is.
9. Rodney is a very good inside outside player. He's become our go to guy lately. I think with better ball movement we will become an even better offensive team.
I will add, I know our defense is not that of prior Duke teams yet. But one thing that will help our defense is better ball movement and better shot selection. There have been several instances where an ill advised shot has been taken and the opponent gets a run out for a lay up. Most of our problems are mental and can be fixed. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

I'll concede that mediocre is too harsh - they're roughly the equivalent of a 7 seed. We barely pulled out a home win against an opponent we'd be lucky to see in the round of 32.

Virginia is ranked #17 by Pomeroy and #22 by RPI. That's a 4 or 5 seed, maybe a 6. Duke, by the way, is ranked #22 in Pomeroy and #27 in RPI, so we may be the equivalent of a 7 seed (though I think we'll get a much better seed by the end of the season). The point is, so far this season, UVa has earned a better ranking than we have. You're selling Virginia way short and selling Duke short by saying it wasn't much of a win.

[wilson]

If you're only interested in analyzing the end result, then sure: whether we won or lost matters. If you're interested in analyzing the process (as part of a "looking forward" approach), then no.

From the perspective of winning or losing, I'm very pleased with last night's result. But from a perspective of "how well the team played", the actual W/L result doesn't matter much.I'll admit that I was engaging in a bit of facetious oversimplification. But for me, the first question is always, "Did we win?" Then I am willing, in fact eager, to engage in some of the deeper statistical and tactical analysis. It just seems to me that there are a bunch of people around here who are too busy staring at the trees to notice the forest.

[bob blue devil]

Based on what?

I've no idea where they'll eventually be seeded but as noted KenPom has UVa at #17, which is the equivalent of a #5 seed. They're a good team. Hopefully we're all always optimistic that things will get better.

I don't think it's a stretch or an exaggeration. They came in tied for 1st and undefeated in the ACC, and 2 days before playing us they destroyed NC State by 31 in Raleigh. Mediocre though State may be, winning an ACC road game by 31 is not a small feat.

Latest poll has them out of top 25 with votes putting them in the low 30's - that would be 7 or 8 seed. Latest lunardi bracket has them at 10 seed. I'm a fan of pomeroy, which, as you note would give them a 5, but it's one of many measures. I'm surprised my characterization of UVa received any protest. Of course it's just a guess, but it provides a real anchor instead of having us debate an nebulous word like mediocre or good.

You are welcome to put as much stock as you'd like in 3 games as you'd like. To me that is a very small n, with two against below average teams. And of course the argument completely falls apart when you extend your definition of recent to the past 4 games instead of 3. I don't think anything magical happens once a game is 4 in the rear view mirror that makes it so much less relevant than 3.

I don't think UVa is a bad team, but, unless our aspiration is to be roughly as good as they are (borderline ranked team), how can yesterday's result be particularly encouraging. I think we will be better than this, but the evidence is not there.

[greybeard]

Count me in the group that thought Plumlee played well last night. Also count me in the group that thinks statistics aren't really useful given Plumlee's VERY limited action - that applies to ALL of his statistics. He hasn't produced much statistically, but he seems to be in the right spots and he is certainly challenging and altering shots on defense.

None of this is to suggest that he should start. But I think he brings more to the table at this point than, say, Hairston. And I think he's absolutely a better option at C than Parker. I think that the C position moving forward this year should be Jefferson and Plumlee, with Jefferson taking the vast majority and Plumlee taking the lesser share. But if we can get 40 solid mpg from those two at C, I think that's where this team reaches its ceiling.

Damn good.

[weezie]

Funny moment from last hoos inbound under their basket: Quinn set to guard, pretty fierce concentration (and moment) ref waves hand in front of Cook's face as if to break his stare along with clearing the space in front of the baseline and starts laughing, took Quinn a downbeat to register the ref and the laugh and then Quinn started laughing at the ref and shrugged his shoulders.
I'm up in the seats practically keeling over and here they are, chortling on the court. Just another reminder that I will never truly know what it's really like out there on the court. :cool:

[rtnorthrup]

Well, sorry, but I'd say the use of full-platoon substituting was a tactical change, and a big one.

I do agree that this week is a key practice week. Going from Monday to Saturday for the next game, no travel, and being early in the academic semester allows for a good stretch of practice. Based on what we saw last night, the motivation level of the players and coaches is high. I expect the team to play well Saturday vs NCSU and am eager to see whether the platoon system survives or just what the gameplan is.

Disagree. It felt more motivational than tactical to me. But everyone sees things different. Either way, it didn't require hours of practice to put into place, like say adding a zone wrinkle or a new offensive set.

[slower]

UNC? Duke has several games much tougher than that - @Pitt, FSU, @Miami.

UNC has been a Jekyll and Hyde team this year. So, one Jekyll and one Hyde game from them equals one loss for us. Those other games (@Pitt, FSU, @Miami) all fall into the "one more loss somewhere along the way" category. Add that to 2 losses to Syracuse and that's, best case, at least 6 conference losses.

[devil84]

http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by devil84 http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=694330#post694330)

WOW. Apparently I watched a different game, perhaps in a parallel universe. I'm going to stop reading DBR tonight and go back to the wonderful feeling of seeing a team that was really excited about winning a game as a team, with some very different strategies employed in about a one-hour practice (per Coach K's radio interview). That's impressive, IMHO.
Cautiously optimistic is more like it. Plenty of posters while pleased are concerned that the team was in a position to lose the game after giving up another big lead in the 2nd half. That pattern justifiably tempers euphoria.Cautiously optimistic is more like it. Plenty of posters while pleased are concerned that the team was in a position to lose the game after giving up another big lead in the 2nd half. That pattern justifiably tempers euphoria.

I'd have been thrilled with cautious optimism. The post-game comments were pretty depressing. Little mention of the changes that were made (and there were some huge changes), lots of finding other things to complain about. They started to get better about the time I posted, maybe because a lot of the people who were at the game were able to start posting? Today's are also a bit more optimistic, perhaps because people are able to sleep on it? Or do the curmudgeons post directly after the game?

While, yes, we did put ourselves in a position to lose the game (from my memory, they were equal parts our own mistakes and a number of lucky bounces that went UVA's way). Instead of resigning themselves to the pattern of giving up another big lead, the team did something about it, in a pretty big way. Yes, that too included some lucky bounces. But they happened. And when you see the players leaving the court so overjoyed, even Coach K nearly tackled Wojo to give him the biggest bear-hug I've seen. Why do we have to be "cautiously optimistic" (and I wasn't seeing much optimism, quite frankly) when the players and coaches were as euphoric as I've seen them this year? That team euphoria that left the floor can be incredibly contagious. They overcame some things, particularly in light of Coach K's personal situation, in this game -- and they did that together. That is a HUGE benefit for team-building. I see that as plenty of reason to be optimistic.

Wildly Polyannaish? No. Optimistic and very excited about the win against a good team? Yes.

[Duvall]

UNC has been a Jekyll and Hyde team this year. So, one Jekyll and one Hyde game from them equals one loss for us. Those other games (@Pitt, FSU, @Miami) all fall into the "one more loss somewhere along the way" category. Add that to 2 losses to Syracuse and that's, best case, at least 6 conference losses.

I mean, that's not the *best* case - this Syracuse team shouldn't be confused with Vegas '91 or anything. And UNC has been more of a Jekyll and Jekyll-taking-advantage-of-sloppy-early-season play team this year.

[Kedsy]

You take particular issue with his defensive rebounding. I actually think he is an asset in that respect, even last night when his individual numbers did not show much. If you watch him when the shot goes up, he generally puts his head down and searches out the nearest opponent and works to get in position and seal him off. Amile, on the other hand, tends to watch the ball in flight and float to the rim sometimes. It gets Amile rebounds, but it also allows people to come in for offensive boards. I started commenting on it in the in-game chat because Amile was doing it so often--even on a free throw, where he just turned and stepped towards the rim (and gave up an o-board to the guy he should have boxed out). I am not saying there is not value to Amile's ball-hawking approach, because it lets him grab some boards that others might not get and because when he does box out he sometimes just gets pushed under the rim due to his size (which happened a few times last night). But to say Marshall is a poor defensive rebounder because he doesn't personally end up grabbing the rebound is doing a disservice to his effort (which is clearly there) and the results (which may mean someone else on our team gets the rebound). He's clearly not perfect on the glass, but I think he's better than he is getting credit for.


I hear what you're saying and do appreciate good boxing out, but boxing out and getting the rebound aren't mutually exclusive. When he's out there, Marshall grabs only 8.5% of the available defensive rebounds. That's not particularly good for a guard, much less a center. In fact, even if you hypothesized that he's responsible for twice as many rebounds as he grabs himself (which I assume is way high), the resulting 17% is OK for a big man but nowhere near outstanding. Amile, on the other hand, has grabbed 27.3% of available rebounds, which is 2nd in the ACC and 21st in the country. Even if he gives up a couple offensive rebounds by not boxing out (which I'm not sure whether I agree with or not), his performance has still been outstanding.


Well sure, but I think we all also felt like we stole that game.

That UNC game, maybe. But I don't get why anybody would feel that way about last night's game. We controlled the game for 37 minutes and we won. The doom and gloom some posters are sharing seems unwarranted to me.

[slower]

I mean, that's not the *best* case - this Syracuse team shouldn't be confused with Vegas '91 or anything. And UNC has been more of a Jekyll and Jekyll-taking-advantage-of-sloppy-early-season play team this year.

I suppose I'm just trying to manage my own expectations. :p

[Kedsy]

UNC has been a Jekyll and Hyde team this year. So, one Jekyll and one Hyde game from them equals one loss for us. Those other games (@Pitt, FSU, @Miami) all fall into the "one more loss somewhere along the way" category. Add that to 2 losses to Syracuse and that's, best case, at least 6 conference losses.

I don't know why you're conceding two losses to Syracuse. They almost lost to Miami at the Dome. And sure, it's always possible that we lose to UNC, but I think the better chance is that we win both against them. So, while we could lose 6 or even 7 conference games, and I'm still sticking with the 13-5 that I chose in the predict our record poll, I think we have a decent shot at 14-4.

[wk2109]

I mean, that's not the *best* case - this Syracuse team shouldn't be confused with Vegas '91 or anything.

I agree. There's no reason to expect Duke to lose both games to Syracuse. I'm pretty certain that Duke, with its plethora of three-point shooters and high-scoring wings, is pretty frightening to Syracuse.

[pfrduke]

That UNC game, maybe. But I don't get why anybody would feel that way about last night's game. We controlled the game for 37 minutes and we won. The doom and gloom some posters are sharing seems unwarranted to me.

To be clear, I was talking only about that UNC game. I felt exactly the opposite about our victory last night (had Virginia won, it would have felt like they stole the game, for the reason you describe).

[slower]

I don't know why you're conceding two losses to Syracuse. They almost lost to Miami at the Dome. And sure, it's always possible that we lose to UNC, but I think the better chance is that we win both against them. So, while we could lose 6 or even 7 conference games, and I'm still sticking with the 13-5 that I chose in the predict our record poll, I think we have a decent shot at 14-4.


I agree. There's no reason to expect Duke to lose both games to Syracuse. I'm pretty certain that Duke, with its plethora of three-point shooters and high-scoring wings, is pretty frightening to Syracuse.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see and revisit our predictions at the end of the season. And there's NOT "no reason to expect Duke to lose both games to Syracuse" - that's just a ridiculous statement. And I don't know whether there's just a core group of folks on DBR who think every Duke team is as intimidating as the Jwill/Battier teams, but it's not my impression that this team, as the season currently stands, "frightens" most of the better teams.

[NashvilleDevil]

Or do the curmudgeons post directly after the game?

They never stop posting. Duke could win the title this year and there would be a pessimistic post in the first 10 of the post game thread.