Are there only two good teams this year?

[hurleyfor3]

Cuse and Zona. MAYBE Michigan State. I presume Bucky is the same old Bucky that busts the curve on all the dork polls.

[JNort]

No, I'd say about 8 teams or so. Missou, Kansas, Baylor, Duke, Mich St, and maybe Ohio St.

[Ichabod Drain]

Cuse and Zona. MAYBE Michigan State. I presume Bucky is the same old Bucky that busts the curve on all the dork polls.

I think that would be a mistake this year... their scoring average is up pretty significantly from years past.

[Reisen]

If you define good as a legit FF threat & unbeaten, sure.

Both Arizona and Syracuse look very beatable, though.

[hurleyfor3]

I think that would be a mistake this year... their scoring average is up pretty significantly from years past.

Yeah, that's why I'm asking. I start with the premise the B1G is the same conference it is every year, the same teams doing the same stuff maybe in a slightly different order.


If you define good as a legit FF threat & unbeaten, sure.

By "good" I mean "at the top of the rankings all year and beating most of the other decent teams they play". Not necessarily undefeated tho.

[Bluedog]

No, I'd say about 8 teams or so. Missou, Kansas, Baylor, Duke, Mich St, and maybe Ohio St.

Coach K would disagree. ;) But seriously, we played even with Arizona 3/4 of a game and they're the undisputed #1 team in the country - hardly world-beaters. Likewise, I think this shows that although we had disappointing performances against ND and Clemson, college basketball is really fickle and anything can happen in a single game. I think people take too much from a single game - after UCLA, we were unstoppable on offense and on a major upswing, poised to dominate the ACC (except 'Cuse). Now, we are a lowly 1-2, lucky to finish .500 in the ACC. The truth probably falls somewhere in the middle. If one guy gets hot and shots are falling, we can beat anybody. Likewise, we can lose to almost anybody. Hopefully, we'll hit our stride, continue to improve, play hard, and get some good W's down the road!

[TexHawk]

No, I'd say about 8 teams or so. Missou, Kansas, Baylor, Duke, Mich St, and maybe Ohio St.

Curious as to why you think this, especially after losing a home game to a bad Georgia team, and being taken to the wire by a bad Auburn team (at least that was on the road) in the last week. Kenpom has them at 57th in the country, with an SOS at 259, RPI is at 41. In the prior Frank Haith years, they have been very very good on offense and horrible on defense. This year they are still horrible on defense, but down at 65th in AdjO. They are a tourney team no doubt, they will beat up on an awful SEC. I just don't see them in the national title discussion.

As far as KU goes, every time we think they have turned the corner, they drop another one. After two great wins to start the conference season, they face the 'clones in Ames tonight. Vegas has it close to a pick em, since Kane is injured, but Ames is always a tough place to play. Some of KU's best teams have fallen there, Danny Manning never won there in 4 years.

[hurleyfor3]

As far as KU goes, every time we think they have turned the corner, they drop another one. After two great wins to start the conference season, they face the 'clones in Ames tonight. Vegas has it close to a pick em, since Kane is injured, but Ames is always a tough place to play. Some of KU's best teams have fallen there, Danny Manning never won there in 4 years.

I would unequivocally put KU above Duke right now.

My rule of thumb with KU is they need to be dominating their conference to be considered good, because be honest, most years there isn't a whole lot of meat there.

[Hoos Crazy]

16-0 and no love at all?

[TexHawk]

I would unequivocally put KU above Duke right now.

My rule of thumb with KU is they need to be dominating their conference to be considered good, because be honest, most years there isn't a whole lot of meat there.

Most years, yea. But not this year. ISU, KU, OSU are 10-11-12 in Kenpom, Baylor is 29. In last week's AP poll, half of the conference was in the Top 25. Three were in the Top 11 (KU was not one of them). The "middle" is pretty decent too. Oklahoma will be a 7-10 seed, WVU is a tough out at home, and Texas is better than anyone expected them to be. Only TCU and TTech are truly bad teams (and I bet Tech wins a couple they shouldn't by the end of the year).

The Big12 isn't the Big10, but they are probably the 2nd best hoops conference (at least right now).

[hurleyfor3]

And down goes Bucky.

[77devil]

Cuse and Zona. MAYBE Michigan State. I presume Bucky is the same old Bucky that busts the curve on all the dork polls.

Could anything be more indeterminate and irrelevant at the less than halfway point in the season?

[luburch]

And down goes Bucky.

That was one heck of a game and atmosphere.

[Ichabod Drain]

The ending to this kentucky arkansas game was simply amazing

[uh_no]

The ending to this kentucky arkansas game was simply amazing

incredible!

[Duvall]

The ending to this kentucky arkansas game was simply amazing

Cal asking for a technical for people on the court. Schmuck.

[uh_no]

Cal asking for a technical for people on the court. Schmuck.

eh, can't fault him for asking...but refs are not going to give a technical if the clock did actually go to 0....albeit if incorrectly.

to add to the hilarity the UK guy then got the ball stuck in the scoreboard on the inbounds heave....quite the ending

[luburch]

And that's why they call it Super Tuesday.

[Wander]

Short answer is no.

For starters, you guys know that there's another team that went to the Final Four last year that's still undefeated, right?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Short answer is no.

For starters, you guys know that there's another team that went to the Final Four last year that's still undefeated, right?

Wichita State is good, but they don't have a chance to win it all. Yes - they may make it to another FF and they will probably make the second weekend, but there are a few knocks against them:

1) They haven't played a single ranked team all year.

2) They only bring back 2 starters. While the other starters have some experience, it wasn't like the 2012-2013 Wichita State team.

3) This team is exactly like St. Joe's in 2003-2004. They have a chance to go undefeated until the NCAA tournament, where they will be untested against the big boys. And the outcome won't look so pretty.

[Channing]

16-0 and no love at all?

Pretty sure the OP acknowledged Wisconsin in his post.

[vick]

Wichita State is good, but they don't have a chance to win it all. Yes - they may make it to another FF and they will probably make the second weekend, but there are a few knocks against them:

1) They haven't played a single ranked team all year.

2) They only bring back 2 starters. While the other starters have some experience, it wasn't like the 2012-2013 Wichita State team.

3) This team is exactly like St. Joe's in 2003-2004. They have a chance to go undefeated until the NCAA tournament, where they will be untested against the big boys. And the outcome won't look so pretty.

I don't actually think it's all that likely Wichita State runs the table, although certainly they could, but St. Joe's lost by 2 in the Elite Eight, which is actually a pretty much average result for a 1 seed (who average, IIRC, a little over 3 wins in a tournament). I don't think this Wichita State team is as good as St. Joe's was that year, but it's hardly like St. Joe's embarrassed themselves once they played 'the big boys.'

[flyingdutchdevil]

I don't actually think it's all that likely Wichita State runs the table, although certainly they could, but St. Joe's lost by 2 in the Elite Eight, which is actually a pretty much average result for a 1 seed (who average, IIRC, a little over 3 wins in a tournament). I don't think this Wichita State team is as good as St. Joe's was that year, but it's hardly like St. Joe's embarrassed themselves once they played 'the big boys.'

Read my post above. They may make it to the FF and probably the second weekend, which is the EE. But expecting them to have a real chance to win is not a possibility. May teams can make it to the FF, but winning those 2 games is just so much harder.

[Wander]

Wichita State is good, but they don't have a chance to win it all. Yes - they may make it to another FF and they will probably make the second weekend, but there are a few knocks against them:

1) They haven't played a single ranked team all year.

2) They only bring back 2 starters. While the other starters have some experience, it wasn't like the 2012-2013 Wichita State team.

3) This team is exactly like St. Joe's in 2003-2004. They have a chance to go undefeated until the NCAA tournament, where they will be untested against the big boys. And the outcome won't look so pretty.

Trivia. Name the following team:

This team made the Final Four a year ago. They return their leading scorer from that team, but lose three other starters, leaving just two starters remaining. They were ranked in the preseason, and are now ranked in the top five and are still undefeated halfway through the season. Their schedule is not very good - according to kenpom, they've got something like the 155th toughest schedule in college basketball so far.

(by the way, Wichita State has played a ranked team - they beat #24 St Louis on the road)

[luburch]

Trivia. Name the following team:

This team made the Final Four a year ago. They return their leading scorer from that team, but lose three other starters, leaving just two starters remaining. They were ranked in the preseason, and are now ranked in the top five and are still undefeated halfway through the season. Their schedule is not very good - according to kenpom, they've got something like the 155th toughest schedule in college basketball so far.

(by the way, Wichita State has played a ranked team - they beat #24 St Louis on the road)


Syracuse?

[Native]

I think that would be a mistake this year... [Bucky's] scoring average is up pretty significantly from years past.

Every year I fall into this trap. Every year, I say, "Things are different this time around." And then they screw up my bracket. Repeatedly. Like clockwork.

But maybe things are different this time around!

[hurleyfor3]

Every year I fall into this trap. Every year, I say, "Things are different this time around." And then they screw up my bracket. Repeatedly. Like clockwork.

But maybe things are different this time around!

Yeah, I want Bucky as our 1-seed. Or our 2-seed if somehow we weasel into a 1. That's a standing offer every year btw. That doesn't make Bucky bad, but when I'm picking poisons I'll be happy to use it to wash down "5-seed that terrifies me" or "15-seed that should be more like a 12".

I get "St. Joes in 2004" vibes from Wichita State as well. And I got "Temple in 1988" vibes from St. Joes at the time fwiw. Those were the two years in which I've won tournament pools.

My original point, which I figured was going to get deconstructed to hell because we all went to Duke here, is that right now there's Zona and Cuse in either order and then there's everyone else. Nothing I've seen or read in the last few days dissuades me from this stance -- stuff like Arky over Kentucky reaffirms it. It is called the Final FOUR, of course; I'm on to that.

[CDu]

Syracuse?

Yes, Syracuse. They lost Triche, Southerland, and Carter-Williams from last year's team. They replaced them with just Ennis and expanded roles for Cooney and Grant (oh, and some token minutes for Gbinije).

The difference I guess is that (a) Wichita State was a bit of a fluke last year and (b) Syracuse does at least have two big wins over good teams (#18 Baylor in Maui and a 16-point home win over #8 Villanova).

But one can make similar arguments about Syracuse as are being made about Wichita State.

[cato]

Yes, Syracuse. They lost Triche, Southerland, and Carter-Williams from last year's team. They replaced them with just Ennis and expanded roles for Cooney and Grant (oh, and some token minutes for Gbinije).

The difference I guess is that (a) Wichita State was a bit of a fluke last year and (b) Syracuse does at least have two big wins over good teams (#18 Baylor in Maui and a 16-point home win over #8 Villanova).

But one can make similar arguments about Syracuse as are being made about Wichita State.

Thanks for that exercise. It is interesting.

Now, if Syracuse and Wichita State were playing tonight on a neutral court: who would you pick to win?

ETA: I see that Wander posed the initial question, so this question is really more general. I think I'd pick Syracuse over just about anyone at this point in the season.

[Wander]

Yes, Syracuse. They lost Triche, Southerland, and Carter-Williams from last year's team. They replaced them with just Ennis and expanded roles for Cooney and Grant (oh, and some token minutes for Gbinije).

The difference I guess is that (a) Wichita State was a bit of a fluke last year and (b) Syracuse does at least have two big wins over good teams (#18 Baylor in Maui and a 16-point home win over #8 Villanova).

But one can make similar arguments about Syracuse as are being made about Wichita State.

Right. The description I gave applies equally to Syracuse and Wichita State.

I'm not calling WSU the title favorites or anything. I am saying that it's a little silly that we had a thread asking how many good teams there are this year, and we had ~15 replies without mentioning a team that went to the Final Four last season, gave the national champion its toughest game of the postseason, returned its leading scorer, is currently ranked 5th, and is still undefeated with half the season over (while we did have a small discussion about kenpom's 63rd ranked team).

I'm not even saying Wichita State is better than Syracuse. I'm just saying that right now, they look pretty close to each other - former Final Four teams that returned two starters including the leading scorer, ranked in the top five, undefeated, played mediocre schedules so far (kenpom has Wichita at 154, Syracuse at 156). As CDU points out, Syracuse has two really good wins (home over #6, neutral over #12), while Wichita State only has one (road over #24) - but that's not enough to say there's some huge gap. Either Arizona's a step ahead of everyone, or there are some small group of teams that are a step ahead of everyone that includes both Syracuse and WSU.

[TexHawk]

Wichita State is good, but they don't have a chance to win it all. Yes - they may make it to another FF and they will probably make the second weekend, but there are a few knocks against them:

1) They haven't played a single ranked team all year.

2) They only bring back 2 starters. While the other starters have some experience, it wasn't like the 2012-2013 Wichita State team.

3) This team is exactly like St. Joe's in 2003-2004. They have a chance to go undefeated until the NCAA tournament, where they will be untested against the big boys. And the outcome won't look so pretty.

Just checking, people are aware that St. Joe's didn't *actually* run the table before the NCAA tournament, right?

[TexHawk]

Right. The description I gave applies equally to Syracuse and Wichita State.

I'm not calling WSU the title favorites or anything. I am saying that it's a little silly that we had a thread asking how many good teams there are this year, and we had ~15 replies without mentioning a team that went to the Final Four last season, gave the national champion its toughest game of the postseason, returned its leading scorer, is currently ranked 5th, and is still undefeated with half the season over (while we did have a small discussion about kenpom's 63rd ranked team).

I'm not even saying Wichita State is better than Syracuse. I'm just saying that right now, they look pretty close to each other - former Final Four teams that returned two starters including the leading scorer, ranked in the top five, undefeated, played mediocre schedules so far (kenpom has Wichita at 154, Syracuse at 156). As CDU points out, Syracuse has two really good wins (home over #6, neutral over #12), while Wichita State only has one (road over #24) - but that's not enough to say there's some huge gap. Either Arizona's a step ahead of everyone, or there are some small group of teams that are a step ahead of everyone that includes both Syracuse and WSU.

The difference, at least in my head, is that we know Syracuse is going to have a chance to prove themselves in the next couple of months. Using Kenpom rankings, they have #8 Pittsburgh twice, #21 Duke twice, #17 UVA, #18 FSU. Two of their final 14 are below 100. Their SOS will get better.

Now looking at WSU, only 3(!) of their final 14 games are against teams higher than 100. And those are 61 (twice) and 73. Six of their final 14 opponents are below 250. Their SOS isn't going anywhere positive.

Look, I'm not saying they shouldn't be considered "good". They are just an enigma wrapped in a noodle, nobody can seriously say that they are a national championship-type team right now. So much of the love being shown them is because of their undefeated status. a- Do you really think they would be undefeated if they faced Duke's schedule? b- Do you really think they would be in this conversation if they had one loss?

Syracuse is going to sink or swim. If they sink, they won't show up in these threads anymore. That's what's fun about watching good teams get tested. WSU will not be tested, so you have to forgive anyone who might question them.

[JNort]

Curious as to why you think this, especially after losing a home game to a bad Georgia team, and being taken to the wire by a bad Auburn team (at least that was on the road) in the last week. Kenpom has them at 57th in the country, with an SOS at 259, RPI is at 41. In the prior Frank Haith years, they have been very very good on offense and horrible on defense. This year they are still horrible on defense, but down at 65th in AdjO. They are a tourney team no doubt, they will beat up on an awful SEC. I just don't see them in the national title discussion.

As far as KU goes, every time we think they have turned the corner, they drop another one. After two great wins to start the conference season, they face the 'clones in Ames tonight. Vegas has it close to a pick em, since Kane is injured, but Ames is always a tough place to play. Some of KU's best teams have fallen there, Danny Manning never won there in 4 years.

I didn't mean to put Missou. That's my bad I meant to put Ok State and not sure how I put Missou instead

[Wander]

The difference, at least in my head, is that we know Syracuse is going to have a chance to prove themselves in the next couple of months. Using Kenpom rankings, they have #8 Pittsburgh twice, #21 Duke twice, #17 UVA, #18 FSU. Two of their final 14 are below 100. Their SOS will get better.

Now looking at WSU, only 3(!) of their final 14 games are against teams higher than 100. And those are 61 (twice) and 73. Six of their final 14 opponents are below 250. Their SOS isn't going anywhere positive.

Look, I'm not saying they shouldn't be considered "good". They are just an enigma wrapped in a noodle, nobody can seriously say that they are a national championship-type team right now. So much of the love being shown them is because of their undefeated status. a- Do you really think they would be undefeated if they faced Duke's schedule? b- Do you really think they would be in this conversation if they had one loss?

Syracuse is going to sink or swim. If they sink, they won't show up in these threads anymore. That's what's fun about watching good teams get tested. WSU will not be tested, so you have to forgive anyone who might question them.

I don't know why future schedules have anything to do with this discussion. I completely agree with you that if Wichita State and Syracuse are both 30-4 or whatever at the end of the season, then you have to say Syracuse is ahead. But we're talking about right now, and right now they have the same record against a very similar strength of schedule.

I don't think Wichita (or Syracuse!) would be undefeated against Duke's schedule. I would put money on them being better than 13-4. Consider that Duke is 0-2 in road games, against kenpom's #34 and and #76 teams, while Wichita has road wins against #24 and #68. I'm still optimistic that Duke can be better by season's end, but that's another story.

Again, my point is not that so much that WSU is a title contender, but just that nearly every criticism that one can make against them can also be made against Syracuse, so I don't see how we can consider them in completely different categories right now as the original post suggests.