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adukeforduke
01-11-2014, 04:39 PM
Very disappointed in the way Duke played against Clemson today and pretty much the whole season. We really haven't beat a good team yet; maybe michigan and ucla but their in no way world beaters. The team has a lot of talent (I think) but this is the most underachieving and hard to watch Duke team Ive seen in recent memory.

So heres the problems I see and the changes I would make to the team now.

Marshall needs to get 20-25 mins a game and we will see what he can do. From what Ive seen of him defensively I just don't get him playing little to no minutes per game. He could be a real difference maker and can stop Jabari and Amile from playing out of position. A lineup of Quinn, Hood, Jabari, Amile, and Marshall with Dawkins and Sheed being the first off the bench sounds like the best lineup to me.

Josh just can't get it done and needs to play basically none sorry. Hell, I would trade him for several of the Clemson bigs and can say the same about post players on almost any team we've played. He has the worst hands of any Duke player Ive ever seen.

Thornton should be played only in certain situations (creating a spark when the team is showing less effort/focus, etc.) But needs to lose most of his PT to sheed, dawkins, and jones. I think every team can use a Thornton; hes not afraid to foul and play a little dirty when needed but the talent just isn't there to play significant minutes at Duke.

Im starting to think Quinn isn't a point guard that can beat high-level teams with any consistency. He has shown good ability to drive and finish with his great spin move but gets blocked far too much due to lack of quickness and athleticism. He also doesn't pass to open players when he drives (sub-par court vision). Im not sure how to fix this however, since hes really our only option at the PG this year. Maybe getting the ball out of his hands and letting Jabari or Hood play the point forward on certain possessions is worth a try. Thornton could also spell Quinn for a few minutes; he would be a pass-first Point Guard.

Thoughts and additional fixes??

NashvilleDevil
01-11-2014, 04:46 PM
Thoughts? This thread will be locked in 10 minutes.

Karl Beem
01-11-2014, 05:02 PM
Yes MP3 should play. However, who exactly is going to play instead of TT and Jiggy? Our guards were crap today. Jiggy only got 8 minutes. Maybe he should have played more.

sagegrouse
01-11-2014, 05:06 PM
Thornton should be played only in certain situations (creating a spark when the team is showing less effort/focus, etc.) But needs to lose most of his PT to sheed, dawkins, and jones. I think every team can use a Thornton; hes not afraid to foul and play a little dirty when needed but the talent just isn't there to play significant minutes at Duke.



How about "playing hard," which Tyler was doing? He didn't have a lot of company in doing so. Three of his fouls were to stop easy baskets (one went in anyway), when other players failed to defend.

I expect Tyler to start Monday night, given the lack of production from Rasheed, Quinn, and Andre.

wsb3
01-11-2014, 05:20 PM
I don't know what would happen if Marshall got left on the court for more than 2 minutes. It sure could not hurt to see. How could he have been good enough to be the sixth man his freshman year, get injured and now can't get a whiff of the court. Well as stated earlier I guess I don't believe much that is said in the off season. Except maybe Hood was the best offensive player on the team last year as has been said often, but there is another side to the ball.

vick
01-11-2014, 05:38 PM
I don't know what would happen if Marshall got left on the court for more than 2 minutes. It sure could not hurt to see. How could he have been good enough to be the sixth man his freshman year, get injured and now can't get a whiff of the court. Well as stated earlier I guess I don't believe much that is said in the off season. Except maybe Hood was the best offensive player on the team last year as has been said often, but there is another side to the ball.

What? Of course it could, what has Marshall done in his two years at Duke to indicate he is not a very poor--by ACC standards--player on the offensive end of the court, and frankly not great on defense either? You guys are acting like barely in the top-25 is as bad as it gets. Ask fans of any other school in the country whether that's the case. I'm not saying playing Plumlee would necessarily make us worse--though I sure as heck don't see what other people are seeing, and for certain it isn't in his numbers. Would we certainly be worse? Of course not. But definitely possible.

CDu
01-11-2014, 05:40 PM
I don't know what would happen if Marshall got left on the court for more than 2 minutes. It sure could not hurt to see. How could he have been good enough to be the sixth man his freshman year, get injured and now can't get a whiff of the court. Well as stated earlier I guess I don't believe much that is said in the off season. Except maybe Hood was the best offensive player on the team last year as has been said often, but there is another side to the ball.

Well, the easy answer is that Plumlee wasn't really anywhere near our sixth man at any point last year. Coach K was just dropping some coachspeak on us. If Coach K really believed that then I would argue that our practices just aren't a good indicator of who should play. My guess is its the former: Plumlee just wasn't really a top-6 player.

CatDevil
01-11-2014, 05:46 PM
Yes MP3 should play. However, who exactly is going to play instead of TT and Jiggy? Our guards were crap today. Jiggy only got 8 minutes. Maybe he should have played more.

I had not heard "Jiggy" before tonight. In a pretty nasty mood but that made me laugh outloud....don't know why but it tickled my funny bone.;)

_Gary
01-11-2014, 05:47 PM
Well, the easy answer is that Plumlee wasn't really anywhere near our sixth man at any point last year. Coach K was just dropping some coachspeak on us. If Coach K really believed that then I would argue that our practices just aren't a good indicator of who should play. My guess is its the former: Plumlee just wasn't really a top-6 player.

I'm not sure what's happened with Marshall, but I don't think last season's early comments were just "coachspeak." Practice reports and such seemed to indicate he really was playing well, and I've never had the impression that Coach K engages in that type of hyperbole when it comes to such matters. He generally says what he really believes, imho.

Matches
01-11-2014, 06:06 PM
Well, the easy answer is that Plumlee wasn't really anywhere near our sixth man at any point last year. Coach K was just dropping some coachspeak on us. If Coach K really believed that then I would argue that our practices just aren't a good indicator of who should play. My guess is its the former: Plumlee just wasn't really a top-6 player.

Possible. Also possible that MP3 was playing really well until he hurt his foot, and has just never gotten his groove back.

Dukehky
01-11-2014, 08:02 PM
I'm not sure what's happened with Marshall, but I don't think last season's early comments were just "coachspeak." Practice reports and such seemed to indicate he really was playing well, and I've never had the impression that Coach K engages in that type of hyperbole when it comes to such matters. He generally says what he really believes, imho.

Josh Hairston is 6'7 with a low vertical, and he's not real quick. He's is one of our centers. K loves Hairston, so that's who we are going to see, but I find it really hard to believe that Marshall could prove to be less effective than Josh.

wsb3
01-11-2014, 08:26 PM
Josh Hairston is 6'7 with a low vertical, and he's not real quick. He's is one of our centers. K loves Hairston, so that's who we are going to see, but I find it really hard to believe that Marshall could prove to be less effective than Josh.

All emotion aside I think this post makes the most sense. Maybe Marshall would not help but with this lineup and the same repeated problems don't you have to try? i really worry that Parker is getting worn out just like Kyle did by playing out of position.

As far as coach speak from earlier post, one of many things I have admired about him is honesty. Remember when UNC had a super team and was killing us & he said, They are simply better than we are. So no I don't believe it was Coach speak.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2014, 09:27 PM
K sees MP3 every day at practice. K also sees where our weak interior spots are.

We see moments of exuberance in garbage time.

Don't you think that if Marshall was some sort of hidden gem, Coach K might have identified him as such in the past three years?

Seriously, for all of you clamoring for more play... what ia the conceivable reason fof K to hold him back?

I will assume that K sees he isn't ready. Play with what you have, not what you wish guys were. Unless we are packing it in and developing next year's players. And if you think Coach K is playing for next year, you haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years.

As far as what changes are called for... I have a hard time seeing it. We are talented and inexperienced. We have insane talent on the perimeter with shooters and guys who can create their own shot.

I would like to see us push the pace on offense, score in bunches, and play some pressure defense. Our strengths are all outside the paint, and I want us to impose our will on other teams rather than letting other teams feel us out and exploit their advantages.

My two cents...

Go Duke!

Dukehky
01-11-2014, 09:34 PM
K sees MP3 every day at practice. K also sees where our weak interior spots are.

We see moments of exuberance in garbage time.

Don't you think that if Marshall was some sort of hidden gem, Coach K might have identified him as such in the past three years?

Seriously, for all of you clamoring for more play... what ia the conceivable reason fof K to hold him back?

I will assume that K sees he isn't ready. Play with what you have, not what you wish guys were. Unless we are packing it in and developing next year's players. And if you think Coach K is playing for next year, you haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years.

As far as what changes are called for... I have a hard time seeing it. We are talented and inexperienced. We have insane talent on the perimeter with shooters and guys who can create their own shot.

I would like to see us push the pace on offense, score in bunches, and play some pressure defense. Our strengths are all outside the paint, and I want us to impose our will on other teams rather than letting other teams feel us out and exploit their advantages.

My two cents...

Go Duke!

What have you seen that makes you think that we can play effective pressure defense? I think if anything we need to back off. Sulaimon is the only guy who has shown that he can pressure the ball and stay in front of his man.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2014, 09:41 PM
What have you seen that makes you think that we can play effective pressure defense? I think if anything we need to back off. Sulaimon is the only guy who has shown that he can pressure the ball and stay in front of his man.

I am saying we have a wealth of athletic, quick, savvy guys at 1, 2 and 3 and we can score quickly. Let's use that to our advantage instead of scoring 22 points in a half and getting outrebounded.

Dukehky
01-11-2014, 09:47 PM
I am saying we have a wealth of athletic, quick, savvy guys at 1, 2 and 3 and we can score quickly. Let's use that to our advantage instead of scoring 22 points in a half and getting outrebounded.

I agree with your assessment of our athletes, but they haven't shown they can guard like I think you want. Pressure defense also takes people farther away from the basket, which makes our lack of size more evident on the defensive boards. Jefferson and Parker aren't strong enough, and parker not a good enough rebounder to get all those rebounds by themselves, which they will be left to do if everyone is extended into pressure positions. We try and pressure the ball as it is, and I think extending that pressure will only make our defense worse. Other point guards feast on Quinn's pressure defense. Use that length to disrupt passing lanes closer to the basket.

Also, when we play QC and TT together, which K does fairly frequently, there goes our athleticism and quickness on the perimeter.

Our aggressive hedging 30 feet from the hoop also just destroys us. If you're going to insist on doing that, then at least trap it.

Wildling
01-11-2014, 09:49 PM
I am saying we have a wealth of athletic, quick, savvy guys at 1, 2 and 3 and we can score quickly. Let's use that to our advantage instead of scoring 22 points in a half and getting outrebounded.

Can I get an amen!

I liked this team better when we were up and down the court dropping 80 and 90 points and no defense, rather than scoring 50 and 60 and still no defense.

SoCalDukeFan
01-11-2014, 09:50 PM
To see Parker and Hood get some assists.

DoCal

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-11-2014, 09:51 PM
I agree with your assessment of our athletes, but they haven't shown they can guard like I think you want. Pressure defense also takes people farther away from the basket, which makes our lack of size more evident on the defensive boards. Jefferson and Parker aren't strong enough, and parker not a good enough rebounder to get all those rebounds by themselves, which they will be left to do if everyone is extended into pressure positions. We try and pressure the ball as it is, and I think extending that pressure will only make our defense worse. Other point guards feast on Quinn's pressure defense. Use that length to disrupt passing lanes closer to the basket.

Also, when we play QC and TT together, which K does fairly frequently, there goes our athleticism and quickness on the perimeter.

You may be right, but I guess I see it as a more likely path to success than wishing MP3 turn into a unicorn and put the team on his back as a high-impact shot blocking dynamo.

I'd rather see us develop our stengths and force our will than place all our hopes on an underdeveloped oft-injured good kid who isn't ready.

Dukehky
01-11-2014, 09:57 PM
You may be right, but I guess I see it as a more likely path to success than wishing MP3 turn into a unicorn and put the team on his back as a high-impact shot blocking dynamo.

I'd rather see us develop our stengths and force our will than place all our hopes on an underdeveloped oft-injured good kid who isn't ready.

Don't need Marshall to pack it in defensively. In fact, I think as you say I wish he was Marshall is more necessary to the style of defense you propose more so than it would the other. Help defense is closer and thus negates the need for a rim protector/beast rebounder than is necessary in a pressure defense style (Louisville last year had Dieng, pressured like crazy but he could play eraser a lot of the time). I would like to see Marshall play more, but I don't think its happening hence my desire for a more compressed defensive philosophy. It works like a zone does, without being a zone.

Regardless, I think that Rasheed should be on the primary ball handler no matter what defense we play. He would be most effective in either style IMO

UrinalCake
01-11-2014, 09:59 PM
We've seen Coach K make drastic changes mid-season before: moving Elliot Williams into the starting lineup, moving Seth Curry back to SG after starting the season trying him at the point, benching Paulus, and numerous others that were necessitated by injury. So even though many view him as being stubborn, I won't be surprised to see some changes made after this loss. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with Hood and Parker trying to guard the 2 and 3, but at this point things really can't get any worse so why not...

NYBri
01-11-2014, 10:04 PM
Changes are coming. That's the only thing I really know. I don't know what changes they will be, my changes will be made.

BDBob
01-11-2014, 10:33 PM
First post so be gentle... Been watching Duke basketball for some 50 years now... Way north of 1000 games starting with Vic. Don't have any wins yet, much less 950+. But IMO the problem today was a lack of coaching like I am unfamiliar with. The staff's collective biorhythms must have been way low.

All of us could have seen within the first 5 minutes today that our lack of size and strength inside is a major flaw that no amount of impressive practicing can help. Having Marshall on the bench today was beyond reason. K has wasted half a season that could have been used to bring MP3 along to help this team. It's great to finally have such a talented set of athletes but in today's game, no team can reach its potential without size. Surely K should have learned that lesson over the past several years, especially 2010.

I think that we all had high expectations for this team and we still do, but it's sad to see the missing piece continue to sit at the end of the bench ... I can see where MP3 may be K's last chance to develop a big. A lot can still be done in January and February ...

Furniture
01-11-2014, 10:53 PM
Can I get an amen!

I liked this team better when we were up and down the court dropping 80 and 90 points and no defense, rather than scoring 50 and 60 and still no defense.

I have been thinking exactly this! Are the coaches just practicing D all day and everyday and forgetting about the O?
A Scotsman i used to work with in the UK said this about my soccer team. If you don't score you don't win!

miramar
01-11-2014, 11:23 PM
The triangle teams are 2-7, and I don't remember when that has happened before.

UVa is 3-0 in conference and coming to Cameron on Monday, so something has to give. No matter what, Coach K will have something prepared two days from now.

BigWayne
01-11-2014, 11:42 PM
I came home today from watching my son's HS game, where I saw 80% of the guys on his team failing to block out on rebounds, to watch the Clemson game on the DVR. Maybe it was the perspective, but it sure seemed like we had guys standing around not blocking out very much. I was not surprised to see Duke fall to the same fate as my son's team today after I saw that. Fortunately for Duke, I think the coaching staff has a bit more of a clue than my son's coach and may figure out some way to get the guys that get minutes to block out, either by switching personnel or lighting a fire under a few young blue devil's posteriors.

DBFAN
01-12-2014, 12:48 AM
To see Parker and Hood get some assists.

DoCal

I would like that as well, but that would require the other guys not standing around and being spectators.

UrinalCake
01-12-2014, 04:09 AM
Yes MP3 should play. However, who exactly is going to play instead of TT and Jiggy? Our guards were crap today. Jiggy only got 8 minutes. Maybe he should have played more.

Yeah, a couple weeks ago I was in the "Tyler and Josh need less minutes" camp, but I mean Josh played 9 minutes at ND and 8 min at Clemson which were our two worst losses of the year. He played 9 minutes against Vermont, our "worst win" of the season. So the numbers seem to indicate that we're a better team with him playing more minutes, even if this disagrees with what we think we see on the court. Regardless, I don't think Josh is our problem right now. The fact that Jabari's scoring has fallen off a cliff is a much bigger issue, whether it's him hitting the freshman wall or other teams adjusting or him still getting over the flu, I don't know.

MIKESJ73
01-12-2014, 05:33 AM
How is it possible that MP3 doesn't look like an NBA all-star in practice? Every big man we face looks like an All-American. The fact that he can't dominate us in practice is the most telling reason he isn't on the floor.

jv001
01-12-2014, 06:27 AM
Yeah, a couple weeks ago I was in the "Tyler and Josh need less minutes" camp, but I mean Josh played 9 minutes at ND and 8 min at Clemson which were our two worst losses of the year. He played 9 minutes against Vermont, our "worst win" of the season. So the numbers seem to indicate that we're a better team with him playing more minutes, even if this disagrees with what we think we see on the court. Regardless, I don't think Josh is our problem right now. The fact that Jabari's scoring has fallen off a cliff is a much bigger issue, whether it's him hitting the freshman wall or other teams adjusting or him still getting over the flu, I don't know.

I don't think Josh, Marshall, Matt or Semi are the problems right now. The problem is the TEAM. There seems to be no team. Not of offense or defense. GoDuke!

CajunDevil
01-12-2014, 07:13 AM
As I mentioned in the post-game thread - coaching was the biggest issue today. K is not infallible. He is quite stubborn, and can be slow to see and embrace change. Well, now is the time to change.

What's not working?
1. Pressure D - we haven't displayed the ability to defend quick guards on the perimeter. Trying to pressure opposing guards simply allows them more of an opportunity to beat us off the dribble. Also, we aren't getting a high rate of turnovers and opposing teams are shooting quite well against us. We need to back up 1/2-1 step and play solid defense focused on containing not stifling the opposing guards.

2. Rebounding in small ball - we get dominated by opposing bigs because our bigs that are playing aren't really bigs. Jabari's natural position is 3/4, Amile's natural position is HS 4, and is trying to beef up to a college 4. Rodney's natural position is wing. He has no business defending the post ever. Josh has an old man's game but at 6'7" with limited athleticism he has a lot of trouble rebounding. Now, Josh does play good position defense, but he isn't physically equipped to compete at major college level, imo. These are the bigs Coach K is playing and it's clearly not getting it done.

3. Post offense - Jabari didn't get one touch in the post in the Clemson game. This is BAD coaching. Jabari is our only real post threat, and as K was doing at the beginning of the year - moving Jabari from interior to perimeter - K needs to do the same now. Whenever we needed a basket against Zona - K put Jabari in the post and we went to him and he delivered.

Where to go from here?
1. New lineup - Cook, Hood, Jabari, Amile, Marshall
2. Play contain, not pressure, D. Use our length to contest shots and rebound
3. Move Jabari around... put in post, on perimeter.
4. Have Amile and Marshall crash offensive boards
5. Reserves - Rasheed, Dawkins, Matt Jones should get primary minutes as wing reserves; Hairston & Semi should spell Amile & Marshall. Tyler? I guess he can spell Cook for a few minutes a game, but no more. He tends to be a defensive liability because of his propensity to foul and continues to get beat off the dribble and back door. Offensively, he's no real help. I'd much rather see Matt take his spot in the rotation.

It's time for our coaches to step up. It doesn't matter how many W's a coach has, he still must be flexible enough to make changes and realize when "his" way is not working. K's way is clearly not working and he must tweak it some. He has done it in the past and I'm sure he can do it again. Also, I'm sure K's loss of his brother has affected his focus on this team and the amount of emotional energy he can give to this team. Hopefully, Coach K and the team can bounce bac

Wander
01-12-2014, 07:19 AM
There seems to be no team. Not of offense or defense. GoDuke!

The offense is fine. People need to realize this. It was not a great performance against Clemson - although as I mentioned in the other thread, they have the #1 field goal defense in the country - but overall it is fine. We rarely turn the ball over and we have a decent assist rate. Our biggest weakness on offense is probably offensive rebounding, which I think just says something about our lack of size and not much about chemistry or "playing like a team."

Our defense is bad and I think the comment is spot on there. I don't think it's as much of a silver bullet as some others do, but I agree we should experiment with giving Marshall more minutes to help this.

Furniture
01-12-2014, 07:34 AM
As I mentioned in the post-game thread - coaching was the biggest issue today. K is not infallible. He is quite stubborn, and can be slow to see and embrace change. Well, now is the time to change.

What's not working?
1. Pressure D - we haven't displayed the ability to defend quick guards on the perimeter. Trying to pressure opposing guards simply allows them more of an opportunity to beat us off the dribble. Also, we aren't getting a high rate of turnovers and opposing teams are shooting quite well against us. We need to back up 1/2-1 step and play solid defense focused on containing not stifling the opposing guards.

2. Rebounding in small ball - we get dominated by opposing bigs because our bigs that are playing aren't really bigs. Jabari's natural position is 3/4, Amile's natural position is HS 4, and is trying to beef up to a college 4. Rodney's natural position is wing. He has no business defending the post ever. Josh has an old man's game but at 6'7" with limited athleticism he has a lot of trouble rebounding. Now, Josh does play good position defense, but he isn't physically equipped to compete at major college level, imo. These are the bigs Coach K is playing and it's clearly not getting it done.

3. Post offense - Jabari didn't get one touch in the post in the Clemson game. This is BAD coaching. Jabari is our only real post threat, and as K was doing at the beginning of the year - moving Jabari from interior to perimeter - K needs to do the same now. Whenever we needed a basket against Zona - K put Jabari in the post and we went to him and he delivered.

Where to go from here?
1. New lineup - Cook, Hood, Jabari, Amile, Marshall
2. Play contain, not pressure, D. Use our length to contest shots and rebound
3. Move Jabari around... put in post, on perimeter.
4. Have Amile and Marshall crash offensive boards
5. Reserves - Rasheed, Dawkins, Matt Jones should get primary minutes as wing reserves; Hairston & Semi should spell Amile & Marshall. Tyler? I guess he can spell Cook for a few minutes a game, but no more. He tends to be a defensive liability because of his propensity to foul and continues to get beat off the dribble and back door. Offensively, he's no real help. I'd much rather see Matt take his spot in the rotation.

It's time for our coaches to step up. It doesn't matter how many W's a coach has, he still must be flexible enough to make changes and realize when "his" way is not working. K's way is clearly not working and he must tweak it some. He has done it in the past and I'm sure he can do it again. Also, I'm sure K's loss of his brother has affected his focus on this team and the amount of emotional energy he can give to this team. Hopefully, Coach K and the team can bounce bac

I agree with this especially Jabari at post offense. I think he scores with so much ease at this position. I can't understand why we don't play that more especially since his perimeter shot confidence is down..

rthomas
01-12-2014, 08:24 AM
K needs to move Wojo back to coaching the bigs.

gurufrisbee
01-12-2014, 08:44 AM
How is it possible that MP3 doesn't look like an NBA all-star in practice? Every big man we face looks like an All-American. The fact that he can't dominate us in practice is the most telling reason he isn't on the floor.

I've been firmly in the camp wanting to see him get more time in games, but this is a fantastic point.

Here is another one that is pretty foreign to Duke basketball, but very true. Sometimes you're just a BAD team. The solution to becoming a winning team isn't anywhere to be found in line up or style changes, because you just aren't good.

I have no doubt Coach K and all will keep working and tinkering to try to find the right solution, but sometimes its just a team that isn't that good.

Think about this - who is actually playing well for Duke both on offense and on defense?

NO ONE. Absolutely no one. How long do you have to go back to find a Blue Devil team without one single player who was doing well on both ends.

Fish80
01-12-2014, 09:56 AM
One word: Zone.

When we played a couple of possessions of zone, sure it was shocking, but it was effective.

DukeDevilDeb
01-12-2014, 10:17 AM
One word: Zone.

When we played a couple of possessions of zone, sure it was shocking, but it was effective.

...but actually I agree with you. The zone seemed to befuddle Clemson. I'm not advocating becoming Syracuse, but I do think changing things up with a zone a couple of times in the game would help. I don't know why we didn't try it again in the second half.

Two other questions:

1. We had a lead in the first half and looked awful in every way in the second. One of the things I have most admired about K over the years has been his ability to make half-time adjustments. Yesterday, if there were adjustments, they didn't work. When that happens, usually K calls a full timeout early and fixes again. That didn't happen. Why did we come out for the second half looking worse than we did in the first half?

2. How much are we missing Chris Collins? Is this a relevant issue or one that shouldn't be worried over?

This isn't the end of the world, but it sure feels like it. I've been at virtually every Cameron game of the team since 1986, and even during the real droughts (like 1995), I didn't think we were as befuddled as we were yesterday in the second half. This team hasn't gelled even though we are three games into the ACC season (and about to be 4 games in). I just don't know why it hasn't happened and am not sure that it is because someone is getting too few (too many) minutes or whatever. This just isn't Duke basketball... :(

DUKIE V(A)
01-12-2014, 10:21 AM
A few points on the much maligned duo of Josh and Tyler...

1. They ALWAYS play with great effort.
2. They are two of the few players on the team that consistently help and play physical, team-oriented defense. Many of their fouls are doing the dirty work that others are failing to do on the front end and unwilling to do on the back end (we have enough guys willing to stand right next to the basket with their hands straight up or stand near the 3 point line and watch while their teammates get beat to the hoop -- watch the tape). Thank goodness we have at least 2 guys willing to support their teammates and play solid team-oriented defense.
3. They generally avoid taking bad/selfish shots. We have enough guys to score (and who at times get too self-focused).
4. They are exceptional and positive teammates.
5. I wish some of our supposed more talented players were more of 1-4.

This thing can get turned around if more players consistently play in the passionate, team-focused way that Josh and Tyler do.

DUKIE V(A)
01-12-2014, 10:29 AM
...but actually I agree with you. The zone seemed to befuddle Clemson. I'm not advocating becoming Syracuse, but I do think changing things up with a zone a couple of times in the game would help. I don't know why we didn't try it again in the second half.

Two other questions:

1. We had a lead in the first half and looked awful in every way in the second. One of the things I have most admired about K over the years has been his ability to make half-time adjustments. Yesterday, if there were adjustments, they didn't work. When that happens, usually K calls a full timeout early and fixes again. That didn't happen. Why did we come out for the second half looking worse than we did in the first half?

2. How much are we missing Chris Collins? Is this a relevant issue or one that shouldn't be worried over?

This isn't the end of the world, but it sure feels like it. I've been at virtually every Cameron game of the team since 1986, and even during the real droughts (like 1995), I didn't think we were as befuddled as we were yesterday in the second half. This team hasn't gelled even though we are three games into the ACC season (and about to be 4 games in). I just don't know why it hasn't happened and am not sure that it is because someone is getting too few (too many) minutes or whatever. This just isn't Duke basketball... :(

I thought we looked lousy in the first half (even though we had the lead); however, I too noticed that Coach K seems to be attempting to let this team play through many of the rough patches. It seems that our guys are generally resorting to one-on-one/me-oriented offense too often in these moments.

clg003
01-12-2014, 10:47 AM
K sees MP3 every day at practice. K also sees where our weak interior spots are.

We see moments of exuberance in garbage time.

Don't you think that if Marshall was some sort of hidden gem, Coach K might have identified him as such in the past three years?

Seriously, for all of you clamoring for more play... what ia the conceivable reason fof K to hold him back?

I will assume that K sees he isn't ready. Play with what you have, not what you wish guys were. Unless we are packing it in and developing next year's players. And if you think Coach K is playing for next year, you haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years.

As far as what changes are called for... I have a hard time seeing it. We are talented and inexperienced. We have insane talent on the perimeter with shooters and guys who can create their own shot.

I would like to see us push the pace on offense, score in bunches, and play some pressure defense. Our strengths are all outside the paint, and I want us to impose our will on other teams rather than letting other teams feel us out and exploit their advantages.

My two cents...

Go Duke!

what big guy is K watching Plumlee go up against in practice?

mattman91
01-12-2014, 11:14 AM
what big guy is K watching Plumlee go up against in practice?

Zafirovski!

sagegrouse
01-12-2014, 11:17 AM
A few points on the much maligned duo of Josh and Tyler...

1. They ALWAYS play with great effort.
2. They are two of the few players on the team that consistently help and play physical, team-oriented defense. Many of their fouls are doing the dirty work that others are failing to do on the front end and unwilling to do on the back end (we have enough guys willing to stand right next to the basket with their hands straight up or stand near the 3 point line and watch while their teammates get beat to the hoop -- watch the tape). Thank goodness we have at least 2 guys willing to support their teammates and play solid team-oriented defense.
3. They generally avoid taking bad/selfish shots. We have enough guys to score (and who at times get too self-focused).
4. They are exceptional and positive teammates.
5. I wish some of our supposed more talented players were more of 1-4.

This thing can get turned around if more players consistently play in the passionate, team-focused way that Josh and Tyler do.

To which we can add the variant of the old carpet ad, "A title on the door rates a Bigelow on the floor." To wit,

"A body all a-tore shows that Tyler's on the floor."

Ain't no such thing as a cheap foul with Tyler and Josh.

Furniture
01-12-2014, 11:19 AM
How do players like Sheed, Amile, Matt and even Murphy feel when players with less talent(let's face it) get preferred as starters and get more minutes when things don't go to plan? Yes, it sends a tough message but it can go another way. I think we may have chemistry, morale and confidence issues.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-12-2014, 11:37 AM
what big guy is K watching Plumlee go up against in practice?

I'm sorry, I'm just not in the "MP3 is the answer to all our prayers" camp. I don't understand why so many folks here think that since he hasn't played much, he's some hidden gem and Coach K is intentionally impeding his development.

Please, show me some evidence rather than just "he hasn't played, but he's the solution." In the absence of any evidence, I'm sticking with what I have seen with my eyes on the court and assuming that Coach K is playing the best players.

In the meantime, I will continue to say "increase the pace, gamble on full court D, outscore the other team" rather than pinning our hopes on an "unknown' with 2.5 years in the program and some conspiracy theory that K is waiting for the right moment to unleash the unholy beast that is Marshall.

Keep in mind, I would LOVE to be wrong. If MP3 goes in for 25 minutes next game and posts 10 and 10, I will be elated. I'm just not sure where all this unbridled optimism about Marshall is coming from.

He's tall, he's enthusiastic, and he's related to really good big men. I should be so lucky.

I think we can still win 14 conference games without some divine play from MP3 if we can refocus our team and come up with some "out of the box" scenarios that don't involve giving away minutes to an unproven commodity.

Go Duke!

wsb3
01-12-2014, 11:46 AM
One word: Zone.

When we played a couple of possessions of zone, sure it was shocking, but it was effective.

I realize we are wasting our breath talking about zone but am I the only one that thinks this team might be a really good zone defensive team? The length and the athletes we have.

Karl Beem
01-12-2014, 11:48 AM
How do players like Sheed, Amile, Matt and even Murphy feel when players with less talent(let's face it) get preferred as starters and get more minutes when things don't go to plan? Yes, it sends a tough message but it can go another way. I think we may have chemistry, morale and confidence issues.

Say What? If you're referring to Josh and Tyler, the team improved when they started. Sheed and Amile were awful yesterday.

Ben1029
01-12-2014, 11:51 AM
As I mentioned in the post-game thread - coaching was the biggest issue today. K is not infallible. He is quite stubborn, and can be slow to see and embrace change. Well, now is the time to change.

What's not working?
1. Pressure D - we haven't displayed the ability to defend quick guards on the perimeter. Trying to pressure opposing guards simply allows them more of an opportunity to beat us off the dribble. Also, we aren't getting a high rate of turnovers and opposing teams are shooting quite well against us. We need to back up 1/2-1 step and play solid defense focused on containing not stifling the opposing guards.

2. Rebounding in small ball - we get dominated by opposing bigs because our bigs that are playing aren't really bigs. Jabari's natural position is 3/4, Amile's natural position is HS 4, and is trying to beef up to a college 4. Rodney's natural position is wing. He has no business defending the post ever. Josh has an old man's game but at 6'7" with limited athleticism he has a lot of trouble rebounding. Now, Josh does play good position defense, but he isn't physically equipped to compete at major college level, imo. These are the bigs Coach K is playing and it's clearly not getting it done.

3. Post offense - Jabari didn't get one touch in the post in the Clemson game. This is BAD coaching. Jabari is our only real post threat, and as K was doing at the beginning of the year - moving Jabari from interior to perimeter - K needs to do the same now. Whenever we needed a basket against Zona - K put Jabari in the post and we went to him and he delivered.

Where to go from here?
1. New lineup - Cook, Hood, Jabari, Amile, Marshall
2. Play contain, not pressure, D. Use our length to contest shots and rebound
3. Move Jabari around... put in post, on perimeter.
4. Have Amile and Marshall crash offensive boards
5. Reserves - Rasheed, Dawkins, Matt Jones should get primary minutes as wing reserves; Hairston & Semi should spell Amile & Marshall. Tyler? I guess he can spell Cook for a few minutes a game, but no more. He tends to be a defensive liability because of his propensity to foul and continues to get beat off the dribble and back door. Offensively, he's no real help. I'd much rather see Matt take his spot in the rotation.

It's time for our coaches to step up. It doesn't matter how many W's a coach has, he still must be flexible enough to make changes and realize when "his" way is not working. K's way is clearly not working and he must tweak it some. He has done it in the past and I'm sure he can do it again. Also, I'm sure K's loss of his brother has affected his focus on this team and the amount of emotional energy he can give to this team. Hopefully, Coach K and the team can bounce bac

I really like the idea of getting Parker more touches in the post but I'm not sure it works well with your proposed lineup. Having 2 guys who can't shoot with him does not really give him much space to operate or 3pt shooters to kick the ball out to if the other team were to double. It makes the paint really crowded. The other team's bigs do not have to guard Jefferson & Plumlee. If you have another guard in there it would make it harder for the team to double.

MarkD83
01-12-2014, 12:38 PM
I'm sorry, I'm just not in the "MP3 is the answer to all our prayers" camp. I don't understand why so many folks here think that since he hasn't played much, he's some hidden gem and Coach K is intentionally impeding his development.

Please, show me some evidence rather than just "he hasn't played, but he's the solution." In the absence of any evidence, I'm sticking with what I have seen with my eyes on the court and assuming that Coach K is playing the best players.

In the meantime, I will continue to say "increase the pace, gamble on full court D, outscore the other team" rather than pinning our hopes on an "unknown' with 2.5 years in the program and some conspiracy theory that K is waiting for the right moment to unleash the unholy beast that is Marshall.

Keep in mind, I would LOVE to be wrong. If MP3 goes in for 25 minutes next game and posts 10 and 10, I will be elated. I'm just not sure where all this unbridled optimism about Marshall is coming from.

He's tall, he's enthusiastic, and he's related to really good big men. I should be so lucky.

I think we can still win 14 conference games without some divine play from MP3 if we can refocus our team and come up with some "out of the box" scenarios that don't involve giving away minutes to an unproven commodity.

Go Duke!

This may be repeating what I read in other threads, but the use of MP3 is not so much that he would be an elite big man, but that he would allow our top players to move to their more natural positions. IF MP3 is added to the rotation his role might be to clog up the lane and get rebounds (scoring is not required). This means Duke's current style of defense and offense would have to change. Not to bring back dreams of 2010, but the insertion of Zoubs into the line-up is the type of thing I would hope to see IF MP3 is used as a way to change the team dynamics.

El_Diablo
01-12-2014, 01:36 PM
Where to go from here?
1. New lineup - Cook, Hood, Jabari, Amile, Marshall
2. Play contain, not pressure, D. Use our length to contest shots and rebound
3. Move Jabari around... put in post, on perimeter.
4. Have Amile and Marshall crash offensive boards
5. Reserves - Rasheed, Dawkins, Matt Jones should get primary minutes as wing reserves; Hairston & Semi should spell Amile & Marshall. Tyler? I guess he can spell Cook for a few minutes a game, but no more. He tends to be a defensive liability because of his propensity to foul and continues to get beat off the dribble and back door. Offensively, he's no real help. I'd much rather see Matt take his spot in the rotation.

I don't think this would work spacing-wise. It would be pretty difficult to have Jabari post up effectively if Amile and Marshall are both on the court (because neither is a threat outside of the paint). What are we going to do--have all three in paint? Have Marshall and Amile feeding the post from the perimeter? What will we do when Jabari gets double-teamed if there are only (at most) two other players on the court who can hit a shot from outside of 8 feet? As much as I would like to see Marshall play more, I don't think that lineup would work if we want to get Jabari more post opportunities.

IMO, the main benefit to having Marshall in the game is that he can protect the rim in ways that Josh and Amile cannot. And he's actually been more productive statistically than one may think. He is not a huge offensive threat, although he does have the highest effective FG% on the team, at 71.4% (Dawkins is next at 65.9%). He's not a great one-on-one defender, although his stop percentage is 55.2% (compared to Hairston's 41.1%, which is higher than only Pagliuca right now). Statistically, Marshall is a good, but not great rebounder (although I suppose if people want to discount his offensive production because a relatively high proportion of his playing time is in "garbage time" then they should be willing to admit that his pace-adjusted rebounding numbers are disproportionately affected by frequently playing in stall ball mode). I am not saying Marshall should be getting 25-30 minutes per game, but when we are getting out-rebounded by 18 (which is what happened yesterday...Clemson 48, Duke 30), then surely Marshall should be getting more than 0 minutes of playing time. Is 10 minutes per game really too much to ask, even if he is merely serviceable during that time? If only to keep Jabari out of the post on defense? Even if Marshall makes a couple mistakes throughout his 10 minutes, maybe a better-rested Parker can make up for it by hitting a couple shots that he's missing now (and let's not pretend that our other options at center play mistake-free basketball as it is).

That said, I think our main problems lie elsewhere. First, improved help-side defense across the board would make a much bigger difference to our bottom line, and that needs to come from Hood, Parker and the guards, in addition to whoever is playing center (Plumlee can help here with his ability to block shots and/or make it more difficult to get to the rim--especially because he tends to stay in the paint on defense--but this needs to get better from everyone). Second, Cook also needs to remain locked-in mentally for the entire game, or at least be shown the bench as soon as he starts into one of those multi-possession second-half slumps; let Thornton take over the point for a few minutes while Cook refocuses. Third, Sulaimon needs to find the happy medium between disappearing from the offense and forcing bad shots. I would put more playing time for Plumlee fourth in the order of importance.

Given those priorities, I am of the belief that our help-side defense will improve in fits and starts over the next couple months (with occasional lapses, of course, but hopefully not for entire games or halves) just by sheer blunt-force experience, if not also by improved communication. Getting Cook and Sulaimon primed mentally may or may not ever happen. So even though getting contributions from Plumlee may not be the most pressing concern at the moment, it is the easiest to fix while we work on the other issues. Getting 10 minutes for Plumlee does not require wholesale changes or bumping someone entirely from the rotation, as some people suggest would have to happen. For example, we could use a rotation like this:

Player/Minutes (change from season average)
Cook/34 (-1.5)
Sulaimon/20 (-1)
Dawkins/18 (+2.5)
Thornton/17 (-3)
Hood/33 (+0.5)
Parker/30 (+0.5)
Jefferson/25 (+7)
Hairston/8 (-5)

That would give Plumlee 10 minutes per game and still leave a buffer of 5 extra minutes to be distributed to Jones/Ojeleye or amongst the other rotational players. It would require two of Plumlee/Hairston/Jefferson to be in the game at the same time for only 3 minutes per game. And note that the only rotational player getting squeezed here is Hairston...others are seeing marginal decreases or even increases, including a substantial increase for Jefferson over his season average. Even then, it is pretty much what Hairston is already getting in ACC play. Jones would also see a drop from his average of 8 mpg, but that is largely happening anyway too (5 total minutes in three ACC games).

EDIT: If Marshall can handle that, then we can talk about increasing his playing time from 10 to 15 or so. But let's not too far ahead of ourselves now. :)

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-12-2014, 03:12 PM
This may be repeating what I read in other threads, but the use of MP3 is not so much that he would be an elite big man, but that he would allow our top players to move to their more natural positions. IF MP3 is added to the rotation his role might be to clog up the lane and get rebounds (scoring is not required). This means Duke's current style of defense and offense would have to change. Not to bring back dreams of 2010, but the insertion of Zoubs into the line-up is the type of thing I would hope to see IF MP3 is used as a way to change the team dynamics.

Thank you. This is the most sensible rationale I have heard for inserting MP3 into the lineup.

_Gary
01-12-2014, 03:16 PM
Thank you. This is the most sensible rationale I have heard for inserting MP3 into the lineup.

Several people have suggested this, but Mark did put it succinctly. Still, I don't think that the vast majority of posters asking for more of Marshall are suggesting it's because he's all-world and will immediately start playing like Miles or Mason. For me, at least, it's as much about clogging the lane defensively and allowing Jabari and the others to play their more natural positions as anything else.

CajunDevil
01-12-2014, 03:28 PM
I really like the idea of getting Parker more touches in the post but I'm not sure it works well with your proposed lineup. Having 2 guys who can't shoot with him does not really give him much space to operate or 3pt shooters to kick the ball out to if the other team were to double. It makes the paint really crowded. The other team's bigs do not have to guard Jefferson & Plumlee. If you have another guard in there it would make it harder for the team to double.

Jabari in the post would pull Plumlee's man and result in easy dunks for Plumlee. We've seen that earlier this yr. We'd have to overload one side with Hood, Cook & Jabari. But, I was really thinking more about getting Jabari in the post at different times during the game regardless who is in the game.

Someone else mentioned that Plumlee wouldn't be feeding the post... of course not. Plumlee's role on offense is to set picks, to make himself available for a dump-off from penetration or when his man goes to double Jabari and to get offensive rebounds.

I'd have Plumlee play 20+ minutes/game...

DukieInBrasil
01-12-2014, 03:51 PM
I'm sorry, I'm just not in the "MP3 is the answer to all our prayers" camp. I don't understand why so many folks here think that since he hasn't played much, he's some hidden gem and Coach K is intentionally impeding his development.

Go Duke!

nice straw man. nobody is saying MP3 is the solution to all our problems, but rather that he could help strengthen one of our glaring weaknesses. When Parker was getting worked over by (?)Nnoko(?) because he is like 4 inches shorter, Marshall could have been a reasonable response there by a) being tall b) causing Clemson to look to another player b/c the obvious size advantage was gone or c) preventing the offensive rebound and then and-1 foul due to a). Even if it was for only 3 or 4 minutes MP3 could have made a difference, b/c there was a 3-4 minute stretch there when Nnoko scored directly over Parker several times.
Parker has shown he is an excellent offensive player, but playing him as a 5 is a mistake, one that K keeps repeating with absolutely no change in the results. Parker has poor timing, poor positioning and poor instincts when it comes to screens/picks etc. If he were defending the 4, i think at least some of those deficiencies would be reduced. The kid can play, but he needs to be used in a way that maximizes his talents and minimizes his weaknesses. The way the coaches are currently asking him to play exposes his weaknesses more and reduces his chances to use his talents. That is a poor strategy, and one that needs to change if this team is to reach its potential.

JNort
01-12-2014, 05:51 PM
What? Of course it could, what has Marshall done in his two years at Duke to indicate he is not a very poor--by ACC standards--player on the offensive end of the court, and frankly not great on defense either? You guys are acting like barely in the top-25 is as bad as it gets. Ask fans of any other school in the country whether that's the case. I'm not saying playing Plumlee would necessarily make us worse--though I sure as heck don't see what other people are seeing, and for certain it isn't in his numbers. Would we certainly be worse? Of course not. But definitely possible.

I don't know what you aren't seeing. His 2mpg are usually pretty good. He alters the way opposing teams shoot in the paint and he boxes out better than Josh and doesn't take those stupid long range jumpers. I wish Josh and Marshall switched up their minutes and see how Marshall does. I'd bet he gets more points, rebounds, and blocks. Not to mention him just being on the court would change how teams attacked the paint.

JNort
01-12-2014, 06:02 PM
I'm sorry, I'm just not in the "MP3 is the answer to all our prayers" camp. I don't understand why so many folks here think that since he hasn't played much, he's some hidden gem and Coach K is intentionally impeding his development.

Please, show me some evidence rather than just "he hasn't played, but he's the solution." In the absence of any evidence, I'm sticking with what I have seen with my eyes on the court and assuming that Coach K is playing the best players.

In the meantime, I will continue to say "increase the pace, gamble on full court D, outscore the other team" rather than pinning our hopes on an "unknown' with 2.5 years in the program and some conspiracy theory that K is waiting for the right moment to unleash the unholy beast that is Marshall.

Keep in mind, I would LOVE to be wrong. If MP3 goes in for 25 minutes next game and posts 10 and 10, I will be elated. I'm just not sure where all this unbridled optimism about Marshall is coming from.

He's tall, he's enthusiastic, and he's related to really good big men. I should be so lucky.

I think we can still win 14 conference games without some divine play from MP3 if we can refocus our team and come up with some "out of the box" scenarios that don't involve giving away minutes to an unproven commodity.

Go Duke!

You're right! Sorta... It's like this for me, we know what we got in Josh which is IMO not very good. Josh has been atrocious defensively, takes bad shots, doesn't rebound well, doesn't block shots, to small to alter shots and to small to defend bigger post players. Now that said Plumlee may be an unknown on something's but we know he would automatically be able to make people alter shots because of his height, defend the post better and I doubt he will take those long range jumpers. So I say give him Josh's minutes.

rsvman
01-12-2014, 06:14 PM
I honestly don't understand all the enthusiasm for the zone. We played it for maybe three Clemson possessions in the first half.

Of course they were flummoxed by it; they had probably been told by their coach that Duke hadn't played a zone since the Roosevelt administration.

My memory is that on the third possession one of their guards nailed an open three from the wing. We didn't see a zone again.

When we played zone against Arizona they shredded it by going to the deep baseline.

I'm not opposed to zone, and, in fact, I think we should mix it in at random times in every game, but I don't think it worked as well in the Clemson game as you guys seem to think it did.

Kedsy
01-12-2014, 06:43 PM
Up front, I admit I didn't see the Clemson game and didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.



What's not working?
2. Rebounding in small ball - we get dominated by opposing bigs because our bigs that are playing aren't really bigs.

We didn't rebound well against Clemson, but for the season leading into the game, defensive rebounding has been one of our team strengths. So I disagree that "rebounding in small ball" isn't working.



It's time for our coaches to step up. It doesn't matter how many W's a coach has, he still must be flexible enough to make changes and realize when "his" way is not working. K's way is clearly not working and he must tweak it some.

If by "step up," you mean follow the instructions of random fans, I disagree. I think your proposed lineup would probably be a disaster.


...That would give Plumlee 10 minutes per game and still leave a buffer of 5 extra minutes to be distributed to Jones/Ojeleye or amongst the other rotational players. It would require two of Plumlee/Hairston/Jefferson to be in the game at the same time for only 3 minutes per game.

This all sounds reasonable, but do you really think 10 minutes of Marshall would have made the difference between winning and losing at Clemson?


Not to bring back dreams of 2010, but the insertion of Zoubs into the line-up is the type of thing I would hope to see IF MP3 is used as a way to change the team dynamics.

The thing is, Brian Zoubek was already playing more than 15 minutes a game when he was inserted into the starting lineup. I don't think that trick works with a player who hardly plays.


b/c there was a 3-4 minute stretch there when Nnoko scored directly over Parker several times.

I just checked the play-by-play, and unless "several" means two, this statement isn't true.



If he were defending the 4, i think at least some of those deficiencies would be reduced.

Except Jabari's worst defensive performances (e.g., guarding Perry Ellis against Kansas) came when he was defending the 4.

CajunDevil
01-12-2014, 07:04 PM
If by "step up," you mean follow the instructions of random fans, I disagree. I think your proposed lineup would probably be a disaster.

I always appreciate your condescending tone... and especially your substantive analysis above. Nice work.

"Step up" means putting players in position to succeed. This is something that K hasn't been doing a good job of this year. Any questions?

Also, at least my proposed lineup could actually grab a rebound against a team with strong, aggressive big men... but maybe you'd call that a disaster.

DUKIE V(A)
01-12-2014, 07:23 PM
You're right! Sorta... It's like this for me, we know what we got in Josh which is IMO not very good. Josh has been atrocious defensively, takes bad shots, doesn't rebound well, doesn't block shots, to small to alter shots and to small to defend bigger post players. Now that said Plumlee may be an unknown on something's but we know he would automatically be able to make people alter shots because of his height, defend the post better and I doubt he will take those long range jumpers. So I say give him Josh's minutes.

I have no problem with MP3 getting more opportunity, but saying Josh plays atrocious defense and implying he hoists up a bunch of ill advised jumpers is just not accurate. Josh is one of the few players who consistently plays solid help defense and rarely forces shots. I think there are ways to make your point without being overly harsh and flat out inaccurate.

MChambers
01-12-2014, 07:35 PM
I always appreciate your condescending tone... and especially your substantive analysis above. Nice work.

"Step up" means putting players in position to succeed. This is something that K hasn't been doing a good job of this year. Any questions?

Also, at least my proposed lineup could actually grab a rebound against a team with strong, aggressive big men... but maybe you'd call that a disaster.
Count me in the group who appreciates Kedsy's analysis and found it more convincing than yours.

Many folks have tried to point out to you that a front line of Jabari, Amile, and Marshall won't work. I found their points well reasoned.

CajunDevil
01-12-2014, 07:50 PM
Count me in the group who appreciates Kedsy's analysis and found it more convincing than yours.

Many folks have tried to point out to you that a front line of Jabari, Amile, and Marshall won't work. I found their points well reasoned.

I'm not claiming to have all the answers, I just know continuing to do what we've been doing and expecting different results is really pretty stupid.

gep
01-12-2014, 07:54 PM
I think Marshall should start with Quinn, Rasheed, Jabari, and Rodney. After all, the legend of Patrick Johnson was from his 2.5 minutes when starting the Wake game. So... Marshall plays 2-3 minutes per game... why not the first 2-3 minutes, instead of mid-first half. Maybe throw the other team off their game plan.

On defense, all Marshall has to do is the camp out just outside of the charge circle, between the ball handler and the basket. If they drive, he just puts his hand up... no other movement necessary. Let the perimeter guys work. If the driver goes all the way in, most likely a charge. If the driver tries to go around, at least Marshall altered the shot, maybe a tougher shot, and maybe even a block. And if they lob to their big guy, Marshall at least can contest the shot.

Fouls on Marshall should not be an issue... except the other team gets to the bonus earlier. Win some, lose some, I guess.

On offense, I think he should be at the foul line corner, on the opposite side of the court from Jabari. Shouldn't that open up the middle? Maybe Jabari can even go to the opposite low post, and work his magic from there. If Rodney drives, and if Marshall's man leave him, Marshall is open for a lob... if not, Rodney can do his magic. Of course, maybe Marshall gives up offensive rebounding. But it's not like Duke will "lose" any more offensive rebounding that they now don't have.

So... the ball is mainly in Jabari's or Rodney's hands initiating offense. Rasheed and Quinn can be on the perimeter, waiting for kick-outs should they be necessary.

If Marshall starts... maybe 2-3 minutes or first TV timeout, then maybe he gets back in the game in the first half depending on how he did in his first go-around, or matchups. Then, he should start the second half... again, 2-3 minutes or first TV timeout... and then only go back in if it's necessary or "makes sense". Otherwise, maybe he's not in during crunch time.

I obviously don't know much about the nuances of basketball, but from what I saw from the GTech and Clemson games, this is my 1/2 cents.

DukieInBrasil
01-12-2014, 08:05 PM
Count me in the group who appreciates Kedsy's analysis and found it more convincing than yours.

Many folks have tried to point out to you that a front line of Jabari, Amile, and Marshall won't work. I found their points well reasoned.

Alternating between MP3 and Amile seems to me to be a good idea, playing both at the same time for more than a few seconds does not seem like a good idea.

Schep
01-12-2014, 08:06 PM
Could someone please explain to me why Marshall Plumlee does not play any substantial minutes? One of our main defensive problems is not having a shot blocker in the middle to at least make opposing players think twice before entering the paint- He has 5 fouls to give each game- He certainly could be an intimidator and a much needed potential rebounder- He has been in the program for 3 years, he must know the system, if he is not to be used then talk to him and maybe he can salvage the last 2 years of his eligibility with another school- Appreciate any thoughts

azzefkram
01-12-2014, 08:08 PM
We didn't rebound well against Clemson, but for the season leading into the game, defensive rebounding has been one of our team strengths. So I disagree that "rebounding in small ball" isn't working.

I know what the stats say but I'm wondering if some of Amile's huge performances on the boards are masking an issue.


This all sounds reasonable, but do you really think 10 minutes of Marshall would have made the difference between winning and losing at Clemson?

Probably not but you never know. Clemson had 30 shots at the rim and made about 57% of them. They grabbed 14 offensive rebounds (50% of their misses), six of which occurred in the 8 minutes Josh was on the floor. I'm under no illusions that Marshall is going to don his Superman underoos and save the season, but I think he has the potential to be a solid contributor.

Cameron
01-12-2014, 08:31 PM
Several people have suggested this, but Mark did put it succinctly. Still, I don't think that the vast majority of posters asking for more of Marshall are suggesting it's because he's all-world and will immediately start playing like Miles or Mason. For me, at least, it's as much about clogging the lane defensively and allowing Jabari and the others to play their more natural positions as anything else.

Exactly. In addition to moving several of our guys back to their natural positions, inserting Marshall into the lineup -- or just consistently into the rotation -- would also provide much needed help on the glass as well as better protection of the basket in the way of shot altering and a more robust "wall" in the middle of the paint to help block dribble penetration.

Nobody here is confusing Marshall for the next Mikan, but, contrary to what some might believe, he is not just some tall ladder that we can stand in front of the basket and hope it throws off opposing players. He is a mobile seven-footer with athleticism and a large, physical frame that would provide a size advantage over most opposing centers (compared to Amile and Josh, who are often inches and/or many pounds smaller). Most important of all, Marshall is a worker and willing to do what almost no one else wants to -- give up his body defensively, fight for loose balls amongst the giants, defer to teammates after offensive rebounds to set up second-chance opportunities. Having a guy of his size on the roster with that type of eagerness to partake in what amounts to trench warfare is quite a luxury. And because of his all-in attitude, similarly to Andre and his bubbly spirit, Marshall has a rather unique ability to inject an emotional shot in the arm of this team whenever in the game. Simply put, he plays with maximum effort because he does not take his time on the floor for granted.

If the experiment doesn't work, then fine. We tried. Why not try it, though?

Cameron
01-12-2014, 08:40 PM
I want to note that Josh and Amile are also extremely hard workers. Amile is personally one of my favorite guys on the team. He's tremendous. He exhibits many, if not all, of the attributes ascribed to Marshall in my post above. However, due to Marshall's sheer size, I think he's worth taking a chance on and tossing "into the fire," so to speak. Simply increase the kid's minutes for a few games and step back to see what that sort of consistency does to his confidence and overall production.

gep
01-12-2014, 08:44 PM
Exactly. In addition to moving several of our guys back to their natural positions, inserting Marshall into the lineup -- or just consistently into the rotation -- would also provide much needed help on the glass as well as better protection of the basket in the way of shot altering and a more robust "wall" in the middle of the paint to help block dribble penetration.

Nobody here is confusing Marshall for the next Mikan, but, contrary to what some might believe, he is not just some tall ladder that we can stand in front of the basket and hope it throws off opposing players. He is a mobile seven-footer with athleticism and a large, physical frame that would provide a size advantage over most opposing centers (compared to Amile and Josh, who are often inches and/or many pounds smaller). Most important of all, Marshall is a worker and willing to do what almost no one else wants to -- give up his body defensively, fight for loose balls amongst the giants, defer to teammates after offensive rebounds to set up second-chance opportunities. Having a guy of his size on the roster with that type of eagerness to partake in what amounts to trench warfare is quite a luxury. And because of his all-in attitude, similarly to Andre and his bubbly spirit, Marshall has a rather unique ability to inject an emotional shot in the arm of this team whenever in the game. Simply put, he plays with maximum effort because he does not take his time on the floor for granted.

If the experiment doesn't work, then fine. We tried. Why not try it, though?

You said it better than I did. Marshall doesn't need to play much... 2-3 minute stretches during the game, consistently in the rotation (like Zoubs before he broke out at Maryland)... enough to throw the other team off. And, maybe he then gets to the Zoubs point. But unless he plays in games, I don't think he'll get to that Zoubs point. And, as I've said earlier, his first 2-3 minutes should be at the start of the game.:cool:

Edouble
01-12-2014, 08:47 PM
Count me in the group who appreciates Kedsy's analysis and found it more convincing than yours.

Count me in the other camp. I loved Cajun's post.


Many folks have tried to point out to you that a front line of Jabari, Amile, and Marshall won't work. I found their points well reasoned.

I just checked the thread, and unless "many" means two (Ben1029 and El Diablo), this statement isn't true.

Furniture
01-12-2014, 08:52 PM
The Golden Globe Awards are great tonight. Looking forward to the game tomorrow!
Let K ring in the changes...

El_Diablo
01-12-2014, 08:57 PM
I just checked the thread, and unless "many" means two (Ben1029 and El Diablo), this statement isn't true.

To clarify, I don't necessarily think that the "big" lineup won't work (it could work beautifully, in fact). I just don't think it would be ideal for getting Jabari more opportunities in the post if Amile and Marshall are also on the court.

uh_no
01-12-2014, 09:23 PM
To clarify, I don't necessarily think that the "big" lineup won't work (it could work beautifully, in fact). I just don't think it would be ideal for getting Jabari more opportunities in the post if Amile and Marshall are also on the court.

what would concern me about such a lineup is that marshall and amile would clog the middle enough that jabari couldn't do what he wanted to....and even if marshall and amile didn't clog it up and moved out of the way, that would leave jabari with three defenders to beat....his own, amiles, and marshalls

IMO amile and marshall don't have enough of a game outside the paint (on the whole) that their defenders wouldn't be able to stay at home on the jabari drive. as it is currently, whoever is guarding the 3 has to stay with their guy....as whomever it is (andre, sheed...whoever) can shoot the three or break down the defense on a dribble as it is.

so yes we get jabari a mismatch, but we also have a potential situation where 2 guys can hedge on him instead of just 1.

gep
01-12-2014, 09:24 PM
To clarify, I don't necessarily think that the "big" lineup won't work (it could work beautifully, in fact). I just don't think it would be ideal for getting Jabari more opportunities in the post if Amile and Marshall are also on the court.

Count me in as fully agreeing. I don't think Amile and Marshall should be on the court together... ever. Just like some say that Quinn and Tyler shouldn't be on the court together too. But I still say that Marshall should be in the rotation... and even start.

uh_no
01-12-2014, 09:30 PM
Count me in as fully agreeing. I don't think Amile and Marshall should be on the court together... ever. Just like some say that Quinn and Tyler shouldn't be on the court together too. But I still say that Marshall should be in the rotation... and even start.

i'm hoping to see tyler matt semi marshall and josh start....not that i'm unhappy with the regulars starters' effort....but i think the message needs to be "this team WILL get better, and I don't care if I have to sit LeBron James to make it happen"

and maybe a bunch of guys fighting for playing time might show the regulars what it means to box out as if your life was on the line.....

arnie
01-12-2014, 09:32 PM
Count me in as fully agreeing. I don't think Amile and Marshall should be on the court together... ever. Just like some say that Quinn and Tyler shouldn't be on the court together too. But I still say that Marshall should be in the rotation... and even start.

Yes, there are 80 minutes for the combined 4-5 positions. Would like to see those 80 split among the 3 players that can rebound/ block shots. Parker, Amile and Marshall fit that description - Hood and Hairston don't. Hood's talents are not at the 4. Won't happen, but I'd like to see it,

Kedsy
01-12-2014, 09:42 PM
I think before anyone decides what changes, if any, need to be made, the actual problem needs to be diagnosed. In 2010, we had a team that lacked classic run/jump athleticism. The prevailing wisdom was we'd have problems with strong, athletic teams.

Despite the prevailing wisdom, we seemed to do OK against athletic teams like Connecticut and our *real* problems came against teams that spread the floor with 4-out, 1-in offenses, teams like Wisconsin, NC State, and Georgetown. Nevertheless, many posters around here opined that we needed to play Miles and Mason Plumlee (who both played, but whose minutes generally stayed in the mid-teens) a lot more and play Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas a lot less, which would supposedly solve our problems and allow us to play with the Baylors and West Virginias of the world.

Coach K didn't buy in to the prevailing wisdom and actually went the other way, increasing Zoubek's and Thomas's minutes and decreasing minutes for the Plumlees. If we'd run into a 4-out, 1-in offense in the tourney, it may have come back to bite him, but we got lucky and faced Baylor and West Virginia instead.

I think there are some parallels here. The prevailing wisdom is big centers will kill us, but our losses have featured late second half runs by our opponents (Kansas 15-4; Arizona 19-6; Notre Dame 20-4; Clemson 18-5) during which the opposing center contributed next to nothing on offense. Nevertheless, many posters around here are clamoring for Marshall Plumlee, who I don't think will do very much to stem those second-half runs in which the perimeter guys do all the damage.

Why the second half runs? I don't know. Is there a pattern to who's able to go off on those runs? I don't know that, either. What's the solution? No idea. But one thing I do believe is whatever solution Coach K finally opts for will have little to do with the prevailing wisdom.

Chicago 1995
01-12-2014, 09:57 PM
i'm hoping to see tyler matt semi marshall and josh start....not that i'm unhappy with the regulars starters' effort....but i think the message needs to be "this team WILL get better, and I don't care if I have to sit LeBron James to make it happen"

and maybe a bunch of guys fighting for playing time might show the regulars what it means to box out as if your life was on the line.....

If we were looking at a situation where the problem was effort or execution alone, this type of message might work.

But unless that kind if change is accompanied by strategic changes we need to make, it's not going to matter.

Another way of putting it, I guess, is that if you are going to go with that lineup, Capel should be coaching it. 'Cause if you are benching underperformers, K sits too.

Kedsy
01-12-2014, 09:59 PM
On defense, all Marshall has to do is the camp out just outside of the charge circle, between the ball handler and the basket.

I think it's a lot more complicated than that. In Coach K's defensive system, the center has to move around quite a bit. Hedges, switches, helping on drivers, rotating on the baseline, etc. If all he does is camp out in front of the charge circle, he'd probably cause more harm than good.


If they drive, he just puts his hand up... no other movement necessary. Let the perimeter guys work. If the driver goes all the way in, most likely a charge. If the driver tries to go around, at least Marshall altered the shot, maybe a tougher shot, and maybe even a block.

Depending on when he puts his hands up, with the new rules this could often be called a block, probably more often than a charge.


And if they lob to their big guy, Marshall at least can contest the shot.

If he's out in front of the charge circle, then he'd have little chance to contest the layup/dunk if the driver dishes to Marshall's man standing under the rim behind him. The only way for us to contest that shot would be the PF rotating over to help, which would leave us susceptible to either a dump off to the opposing PF, or a kickout to the wing for a three.

Marshall could only improve our defense if he plays good, fundamentally sound positional defense. Saying anything less than that is a major oversimplification.

Newton_14
01-12-2014, 10:04 PM
what would concern me about such a lineup is that marshall and amile would clog the middle enough that jabari couldn't do what he wanted to....and even if marshall and amile didn't clog it up and moved out of the way, that would leave jabari with three defenders to beat....his own, amiles, and marshalls

IMO amile and marshall don't have enough of a game outside the paint (on the whole) that their defenders wouldn't be able to stay at home on the jabari drive. as it is currently, whoever is guarding the 3 has to stay with their guy....as whomever it is (andre, sheed...whoever) can shoot the three or break down the defense on a dribble as it is.

so yes we get jabari a mismatch, but we also have a potential situation where 2 guys can hedge on him instead of just 1.
Yeah, while defensively, that lineup could possibly be effective, it would be hard pressed to have any success on offense. Neither MP3 or Amile are back to the basket scoring threats, and neither can shoot outside of layups and dunks. Like you said, even if they wandered out to the 3 point line, unless they were setting ball screens for shooters, the defender on them could lay way off of them and clog the paint. Especially on the weak side, where it would be even worse. On the weak side the defender would not have to worry at all about "recovering to their man to prevent a good look from three". If a cross pass or kickout pass went to MP3 or Amile out there, the defender would not even need to sprint out to them. Neither are going to shoot from out there.


I think before anyone decides what changes, if any, need to be made, the actual problem needs to be diagnosed. In 2010, we had a team that lacked classic run/jump athleticism. The prevailing wisdom was we'd have problems with strong, athletic teams.

Despite the prevailing wisdom, we seemed to do OK against athletic teams like Connecticut and our *real* problems came against teams that spread the floor with 4-out, 1-in offenses, teams like Wisconsin, NC State, and Georgetown. Nevertheless, many posters around here opined that we needed to play Miles and Mason Plumlee (who both played, but whose minutes generally stayed in the mid-teens) a lot more and play Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas a lot less, which would supposedly solve our problems and allow us to play with the Baylors and West Virginias of the world.

Coach K didn't buy in to the prevailing wisdom and actually went the other way, increasing Zoubek's and Thomas's minutes and decreasing minutes for the Plumlees. If we'd run into a 4-out, 1-in offense in the tourney, it may have come back to bite him, but we got lucky and faced Baylor and West Virginia instead.

I think there are some parallels here. The prevailing wisdom is big centers will kill us, but our losses have featured late second half runs by our opponents (Kansas 15-4; Arizona 19-6; Notre Dame 20-4; Clemson 18-5) during which the opposing center contributed next to nothing on offense. Nevertheless, many posters around here are clamoring for Marshall Plumlee, who I don't think will do very much to stem those second-half runs in which the perimeter guys do all the damage.

Why the second half runs? I don't know. Is there a pattern to who's able to go off on those runs? I don't know that, either. What's the solution? No idea. But one thing I do believe is whatever solution Coach K finally opts for will have little to do with the prevailing wisdom.
One troubling pattern that I have noticed during the runs, is something others have mentioned in the post game thread. Panic sets in on offense, which just kills us. This team loses their poise really really quickly. Not sure how you fix that but it is a definite problem. Only in the Notre Dame game did they calm down and execute well enough to come back, but even then Rodney made the bad play on the key possession of the game that ended the comeback bid. (Got trapped under the basket after driving too deep and turned it over).

Saturday was the worst by far. They were in full panic mode down 5 with like 7 minutes left. It was a mix of "one on one play" with one guy trying to score all by himself, or a jacked up 3 ball with no chance of going in. All that did was just add fuel to the Clemson fire, leading to runouts or more easy scores. That has to be fixed. They had plenty of time to come back from a 5 point lead, yet you would have thought it was 30 seconds left in the game on every possession with less than 8 minutes to go. That behaviour has to be corrected somehow.

Neals384
01-12-2014, 10:32 PM
I came home today from watching my son's HS game, where I saw 80% of the guys on his team failing to block out on rebounds, to watch the Clemson game on the DVR. Maybe it was the perspective, but it sure seemed like we had guys standing around not blocking out very much. I was not surprised to see Duke fall to the same fate as my son's team today after I saw that. Fortunately for Duke, I think the coaching staff has a bit more of a clue than my son's coach and may figure out some way to get the guys that get minutes to block out, either by switching personnel or lighting a fire under a few young blue devil's posteriors.

Lotta people here saying Marshall's not ready, but one thing he does very well is block out.

Neals384
01-12-2014, 10:37 PM
What's not working?
1. Pressure D - we haven't displayed the ability to defend quick guards on the perimeter. Trying to pressure opposing guards simply allows them more of an opportunity to beat us off the dribble. Also, we aren't getting a high rate of turnovers and opposing teams are shooting quite well against us. We need to back up 1/2-1 step and play solid defense focused on containing not stifling the opposing guards.



This!

Neals384
01-12-2014, 10:41 PM
I realize we are wasting our breath talking about zone but am I the only one that thinks this team might be a really good zone defensive team? The length and the athletes we have.

Our problems have been largely due to guard penetration...zone might help.

Edouble
01-12-2014, 10:48 PM
what would concern me about such a lineup is that marshall and amile would clog the middle enough that jabari couldn't do what he wanted to....and even if marshall and amile didn't clog it up and moved out of the way, that would leave jabari with three defenders to beat....his own, amiles, and marshalls

IMO amile and marshall don't have enough of a game outside the paint (on the whole) that their defenders wouldn't be able to stay at home on the jabari drive. as it is currently, whoever is guarding the 3 has to stay with their guy....as whomever it is (andre, sheed...whoever) can shoot the three or break down the defense on a dribble as it is.

so yes we get jabari a mismatch, but we also have a potential situation where 2 guys can hedge on him instead of just 1.

I agree. I think that Cajun had some good thoughts in his post, but took things a step too far. I would prefer a lineup of Quinn, Sheed, Hood, Parker, and Marshall. At this point, I believe that everyone, in particular our two stars, is playing his natural position. I think it's a net gain on O, particularly since we aren't running that much anyway. The D can't get any worse (knock on wood).

uh_no
01-12-2014, 10:53 PM
I think before anyone decides what changes, if any, need to be made, the actual problem needs to be diagnosed. In 2010, we had a team that lacked classic run/jump athleticism. The prevailing wisdom was we'd have problems with strong, athletic teams.

Despite the prevailing wisdom, we seemed to do OK against athletic teams like Connecticut and our *real* problems came against teams that spread the floor with 4-out, 1-in offenses, teams like Wisconsin, NC State, and Georgetown. Nevertheless, many posters around here opined that we needed to play Miles and Mason Plumlee (who both played, but whose minutes generally stayed in the mid-teens) a lot more and play Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas a lot less, which would supposedly solve our problems and allow us to play with the Baylors and West Virginias of the world.

Coach K didn't buy in to the prevailing wisdom and actually went the other way, increasing Zoubek's and Thomas's minutes and decreasing minutes for the Plumlees. If we'd run into a 4-out, 1-in offense in the tourney, it may have come back to bite him, but we got lucky and faced Baylor and West Virginia instead.

I think there are some parallels here. The prevailing wisdom is big centers will kill us, but our losses have featured late second half runs by our opponents (Kansas 15-4; Arizona 19-6; Notre Dame 20-4; Clemson 18-5) during which the opposing center contributed next to nothing on offense. Nevertheless, many posters around here are clamoring for Marshall Plumlee, who I don't think will do very much to stem those second-half runs in which the perimeter guys do all the damage.and we

Why the second half runs? I don't know. Is there a pattern to who's able to go off on those runs? I don't know that, either. What's the solution? No idea. But one thing I do believe is whatever solution Coach K finally opts for will have little to do with the prevailing wisdom.

Where this analogy falls apart, though, is that the 2010 team dropped down to around the 20th best defense, and that was where are concerns were....this team's defense is ~100th.....so unlike 2010, we can't double down and hope to not run into our kryptonite....in 2010 we increased doing what we already did well....and that covered up some other things....right now we're doing NOTHING well on the defensive end, and despite the offense being second best in the country ATM, we still haven't been able to get it done....no amount of scoring more is going to overcome a defense as bad as ours is RIGHT NOW.

basically, we gotta find something we do well on the defensive end first, and then figure out how to use that to mitigate the other weaknesses on defense.....but so far we got nothing. we can't stop people on the perimeter, we can't force turnovers, we can't stop people in the post, we can't deny entry passes, and we can't get rebounds. teams executing well against us can get whatever they want.

so what is the change gonna be to get us that edge that we can exploit? I'm not sure I can answer that. but that is my analysis of the problem. unfortunately, the TL/DR version is "we're so bad at every part of defense that we can't get better at defense," but I don't want to be sound so pessimistic, because I'm not. I think the answer is, we just need to figure out how to do one thing well, and other things will follow. using the run to set up the pass....using the penetration defense to force teams into turnovers, or penetration defense forcing big men to shoulder the whole load, or blocking shots to force guards to make tough shots away from the rim, or getting rebounds to allow each stop the defense makes to be more meaningful by limiting opponent possessions......thats one of the reasons i want to change up the lineup...not because of effort, not because we should bench underperformers, but because we have no idea what our strength is going to be, and it appears that the coaching staff is just as clueless....so IMO, you mix it up....maybe you find there is something we CAN do well that we're not seeing because we're running the same guys doing the same things over and over again.

Neals384
01-12-2014, 10:58 PM
i'm hoping to see tyler matt semi marshall and josh start....not that i'm unhappy with the regulars starters' effort....but i think the message needs to be "this team WILL get better, and I don't care if I have to sit LeBron James to make it happen"

and maybe a bunch of guys fighting for playing time might show the regulars what it means to box out as if your life was on the line.....

We've seen this before. A few years ago, following a loss @ Clemson. None of the regular starters started the next game.

Kedsy
01-12-2014, 11:11 PM
Lotta people here saying Marshall's not ready, but one thing he does very well is block out.

If so, he doesn't get many defensive rebounds. His DR% is worse than everybody's on the team except for Josh (who also seems to box out) and Matt.

uh_no
01-12-2014, 11:18 PM
If so, he doesn't get many defensive rebounds. His DR% is worse than everybody's on the team except for Josh (who also seems to box out) and Matt.

the more important question is, how is the teams DR% affected while either is in the game? though not as much as getting a rebound yourself, there is a good value to preventing someone on the other team from having the opportunity to get a rebound, especially in the case of mason, when it is likely one of the teams better rebounders.

Kedsy
01-12-2014, 11:21 PM
the more important question is, how is the teams DR% affected while either is in the game? though not as much as getting a rebound yourself, there is a good value to preventing someone on the other team from having the opportunity to get a rebound, especially in the case of [Marshall], when it is likely one of the teams better rebounders.

Yeah, and you could ask the same question about Josh. I don't know how to find that information, though, without going through the play-by-play, which I'm not willing to do right now.

UrinalCake
01-12-2014, 11:24 PM
What kills me is that I feel like if we took our top 8 guys and had them play Clemson's in a pickup game, out on a playground with no coaches and no refs (call your own fouls), we would completely destroy them. We just have such a huge talent advantage. Same with ND and certainly Vermont and ECU. So what the heck is going on? Conventional wisdom would suggest that when you have more talent and lose it's the coach's fault, but Coach K's career speaks for itself and I don't believe he all of a sudden forgot how to coach three months ago. So the only other explanation is that I (and many others) have completely, grossly overestimated the talent levels of the players on this team. And I don't believe that to be true either. I'm just stumped.

Troublemaker
01-12-2014, 11:28 PM
If the experiment doesn't work, then fine. We tried. Why not try it, though?

Some of you must think Marshall's only role in practice is to fetch water for Josh and Tyler or something.

Of course Coach K has tried Marshall at center. Of course Coach K has given Marshall plenty of time in lineups with Jabari and Rodney and the rest of the starters and evaluated him.

What you're actually asking for is this: you want Coach K to use Marshall for extended minutes in a televised non-blowout game so you yourself can confirm whether he deserves those minutes or not. Because, in reality, Coach K has already tried Marshall and already has an opinion about this.

Now maybe his opinion is awful, and sight unseen, us fans have a better idea than him about the amount of minutes that Marshall should play in competitive games. Fine. I'm actually less bothered by that argument than the "Why not try?" one. And I have been as hopeful as anyone on the Marshall front, going back to the offseason.

uh_no
01-12-2014, 11:39 PM
Yeah, and you could ask the same question about Josh. I don't know how to find that information, though, without going through the play-by-play, which I'm not willing to do right now.

not willing to go through every shot taken on the team this year and tabulating who was in the game? it's almost like your heart isn't in this, kedsy!

Kedsy
01-12-2014, 11:54 PM
"Step up" means putting players in position to succeed. This is something that K hasn't been doing a good job of this year. Any questions?


Yeah, I do have a question: why do you equate the fact that Coach K is not employing the lineup and rotation that you'd like to see with him doing a poor coaching job?

Troublemaker
01-12-2014, 11:58 PM
what would concern me about such a lineup is that marshall and amile would clog the middle enough that jabari couldn't do what he wanted to

Yeah, I think people who want Hood at the 2, Parker at the 3, and Jefferson at the 4 should actually be hoping for Semi to step into the 5 spot instead of Marshall (or Josh) because Semi would maintain the offensive spacing. I don't think Coach K will play either of those huge lineup possibilities, but I do think the Semi one is more likely than the Marshall one if he does.

Edouble
01-13-2014, 12:05 AM
Yeah, I do have a question: why do you equate the fact that Coach K is not employing the lineup and rotation that you'd like to see with him doing a poor coaching job?

Because we got stomped at Clemson. The buck stops at Coach K, and I know the man would not have it any other way. He said in his presser that there is responsibility that lies with the staff. It's not just that some people aren't seeing their preferred line-up, but that we went into panic mode for a significant part of the second half of the Clemson game. It helps to have seen what happened. It was ugly. We were not tough. It was not Duke basketball.

bedeviled
01-13-2014, 12:07 AM
right now we're doing NOTHING well on the defensive end, and despite the offense being second best in the country ATM, we still haven't been able to get it done....no amount of scoring more is going to overcome a defense as bad as ours is RIGHT NOWYikes! I hear your frustration, but isn't that overstating things? Haven't we had the potential to win every game? Since I suffer from the syndrome of only remembering the last game, I tend to think the games turn when we begin to mismanage our strength (offense), rather than the opponent suddenly unlocking our defense. Yeah, our defense unlocks, alright, but it's largely due to our mental composure, isn't it? When our offense is clicking, there is not a single...um..."one" to be given that day :p

bedeviled
01-13-2014, 12:17 AM
I admit, I am certainly curious about getting more PT for Plumlee. So, I've tried to think of why that experiment has not yet been performed. First, it's probably important to note that Coach K did mention our smallness in the Clemson post-game inteview. So, it's not that he is unaware of this feature.

So, if he is aware of the smallness, is he just being stubborn in not changing it? I presume that he thinks the team has the best chance of achieving its potential in other ways. His take, at least for interview purposes, is that the players we play are talented but the team needs to grow with respect to "experience, blend, determination, and chemistry." To me, this is consistent with his use (diminishing use as well) of Tyler and Josh, as role players who are experienced and determined within the system. Thus, it appears like he has a different diagnosis, not just dumb stubbornness.

In support of his diagnosis, there was lots of clamor about Mason Plumlee's "matador defense," especially when Ryan Kelly was injured. Mason definitely had height and athletic ability, yet teams had lay-up drills against us. Some posited that Mason was overindulging attempts to keep from fouling. That may be, though evidence revealed that defense continued to be poor even when fouls were not an issue. As such, it could also have been that the loss of Ryan took away the chemistry and communication that Ryan offered. Our defense suffered, and Mason stood in the middle, looking like a fool, despite his size and athleticism. The same could be true for Marshall....what if we get a tree in the middle, but opponents just ski around it? As Kedsy pointed out, even the center's role on defense at Duke is one of teamwork. Does Marshall have this understanding? Will he really provide defensive benefit outside of mop-up minutes? Has he demonstrated this to Coach K? IDK.

But, historically, Coach K has shown clear willingness to make changes, so I think believing he is stubborn is a false accusation. People say that he is refusing to change style of play to fit the team's best potential. Yet, isn't that EXACTLY opposite of the meme we normally ascribe to? (See posts differentiating K and Roy for further details). Isn't he known for best utilizing the specific talents of his players? My impression is that is a big reason why Colangelo begs for his services. No?

The biggest strengths of this team are on offense, right? Some posters have offered cogent analysis on how Plumlee's presence would hinder our offense, and I have not been persuaded otherwise. So, to me, I guess I've reconciled that Coach K is playing to our strengths. It seems reasonable that, without better experience/determination/chemistry as a team, the benefit of Marshall on defense may not make up for the detriment to the offense. This team is still learning, as K pointed out when he referred to the players as not foreseeing the atmosphere of ACC road games. Are they learning quick enough? Will they ever get there? I don't know. But, I'm actually pleased to see that we still consider this a journey - it has felt like, with all our success, more emphasis has been placed on winning every game instead of growing into a championship team. Thus, while I'm VERY interested in how things would go with more Marshall, I suppose I can be patient and put my trust in the coaching staff....for now ;)
Props to Kedsy and Newton_14, in posts above this, for inspiring my thoughts....even if I butchered theirs!

Edouble
01-13-2014, 12:30 AM
I admit, I am certainly curious about getting more PT for Plumlee. So, I've tried to think of why that experiment has not yet been performed. First, it's probably important to note that Coach K did mention our smallness in the Clemson post-game inteview. So, it's not that he is unaware of this feature.

So, if he is aware of the smallness, is he just being stubborn in not changing it? I presume that he thinks the team has the best chance of achieving its potential in other ways. His take, at least for interview purposes, is that the players we play are talented but the team needs to grow with respect to "experience, blend, determination, and chemistry." To me, this is consistent with his use (diminishing use as well) of Tyler and Josh, as role players who are experienced and determined within the system. Thus, it appears like he has a different diagnosis, not just dumb stubbornness.

In support of his diagnosis, there was lots of clamor about Mason Plumlee's "matador defense," especially when Ryan Kelly was injured. Mason definitely had height and athletic ability, yet teams had lay-up drills against us. Some posited that Mason was overindulging attempts to keep from fouling. That may be, though evidence revealed that defense continued to be poor even when fouls were not an issue. As such, it could also have been that the loss of Ryan took away the chemistry and communication that Ryan offered. Our defense suffered, and Mason stood in the middle, looking like a fool, despite his size and athleticism. The same could be true for Marshall....what if we get a tree in the middle, but opponents just ski around it? As Kedsy pointed out, even the center's role on defense at Duke is one of teamwork. Does Marshall have this understanding? Will he really provide defensive benefit outside of mop-up minutes? Has he demonstrated this to Coach K? IDK.

But, historically, Coach K has shown clear willingness to make changes, so I think believing he is stubborn is a false accusation. People say that he is refusing to change style of play to fit the team's best potential. Yet, isn't that EXACTLY opposite of the meme we normally ascribe to? (See posts differentiating K and Roy for further details). Isn't he known for best utilizing the specific talents of his players? My impression is that is a big reason why Colangelo begs for his services. No?

The biggest strengths of this team are on offense, right? Some posters have offered cogent analysis on how Plumlee's presence would hinder our offense, and I have not been persuaded otherwise. So, to me, I guess I've reconciled that Coach K is playing to our strengths. It seems reasonable that, without better experience/determination/chemistry as a team, the benefit of Marshall on defense may not make up for the detriment to the offense. This team is still learning, as K pointed out when he referred to the players as not foreseeing the atmosphere of ACC road games. Are they learning quick enough? Will they ever get there? I don't know. But, I'm actually pleased to see that we still consider this a journey - it has felt like, with all our success, more emphasis has been placed on winning every game instead of growing into a championship team. Thus, while I'm VERY interested in how things would go with more Marshall, I suppose I can be patient and put my trust in the coaching staff....for now ;)
Props to Kedsy and Newton_14, in posts above this, for inspiring my thoughts....even if I butchered theirs!

The point that many have made is that inserting Marshall might be beneficial to our offense, not our defense, as it would allow our two special offensive talents to play at their natural positions on both offense and defense. On defense, there may be some value in having Jabari not guarding the other team's biggest player, as he has looked tired as of late. Kyle Singer faded down the stretch his freshman season when he did the same thing. I'm sure you have read these posts.

I agree with you completely, though, that this is about the journey, in other words, we build our teams for a March run. January means nothing when all is said and done. Stubbornness might be measurable over the course of a season, but we are only 3 games into conference play. The guy can't go changing the lineup every game! Sometimes you just have a bad game. Sometimes you have to let players get crushed to get their attention. You would be hard pressed to argue that Coach K hasn't used this tactic before.

uh_no
01-13-2014, 12:51 AM
Yikes! I hear your frustration, but isn't that overstating things? Haven't we had the potential to win every game? Since I suffer from the syndrome of only remembering the last game, I tend to think the games turn when we begin to mismanage our strength (offense), rather than the opponent suddenly unlocking our defense. Yeah, our defense unlocks, alright, but it's largely due to our mental composure, isn't it? When our offense is clicking, there is not a single...um..."one" to be given that day :p

win or lose, the defensive effort has been not been good...and the stats exist to back that up, it's not an eye test sort of thing, it simply is

we eked out a win at vermont, we had the "potential" to beat a very mediocre ND team....but these are not teams we should just have the potential to beat....these are teams that we SHOULD be beating....one can certainly argue that all the losses are on the road, but it can be countered that one does not have a defense hovering around #100 in the country by simply playing poorly on the road. we've played poorly on that end even in games we did end up winning (perhaps even in double digit margins)...but we can't let the success of the offense turning those particular games into blowouts overlook the fact that the defense was not nearly equally up to snuff

there's a great quote from K that they used to use int he pump up video, something akin to "you don't do things right sometimes, you do them right all the time"....and though I can't remember the exact quote, i think it rings true here.

we can spout about how we were in all these games, but we should not have been proud to only have "been in" those games, because we were not playing defense well. wins are great, and being close to winning is great....but if you're not doing it right, then i don't think they as a team, K as a coach, or we as fans can be satisfied. "do things the right way all the time"

#96 ranked defense is not the the outcome of doing things the right way. not for duke, not for K, and not for these super talented guys.

offenses will go through times where scoring is tough to come by. on the whole though, duke scores a lot of points....our issue is that we can't get stops on our opponents for equal stretches of time, or stops when the offense is struggling.....and I think there is a bit of a selective perception bias here....the defense is not good for large stretches of the game.....but we only notice it when the offense isn't scoring points....so it looks like "oh the offense slowed down! that's why we lost!"....when it's more like "the defense could not give the offense a cushion when the shots were falling, so the offense didn't have any wiggle room"

i'm not saying the offense is perfect here, it certainly is not. and I'm sure duke will continue to work on the offense in practice....there's certainly room to improve....

but #2 offense....#96 defense.....it's not hard to reason which side of the floor is the main culprit of the struggles.

Edouble
01-13-2014, 12:56 AM
win or lose, the defensive effort has been not been good...and the stats exist to back that up, it's not an eye test sort of thing, it simply is

we eked out a win at vermont, we had the "potential" to beat a very mediocre ND team....but these are not teams we should just have the potential to beat....these are teams that we SHOULD be beating....one can certainly argue that all the losses are on the road, but it can be countered that one does not have a defense hovering around #100 in the country by simply playing poorly on the road. we've played poorly on that end even in games we did end up winning (perhaps even in double digit margins)...but we can't let the success of the offense turning those particular games into blowouts overlook the fact that the defense was not nearly equally up to snuff

there's a great quote from K that they used to use int he pump up video, something akin to "you don't do things right sometimes, you do them right all the time"....and though I can't remember the exact quote, i think it rings true here.

we can spout about how we were in all these games, but we should not have been proud to only have "been in" those games, because we were not playing defense well. wins are great, and being close to winning is great....but if you're not doing it right, then i don't think they as a team, K as a coach, or we as fans can be satisfied. "do things the right way all the time"

#96 ranked defense is not the the outcome of doing things the right way. not for duke, not for K, and not for these super talented guys.

offenses will go through times where scoring is tough to come by. on the whole though, duke scores a lot of points....our issue is that we can't get stops on our opponents for equal stretches of time, or stops when the offense is struggling.....and I think there is a bit of a selective perception bias here....the defense is not good for large stretches of the game.....but we only notice it when the offense isn't scoring points....so it looks like "oh the offense slowed down! that's why we lost!"....when it's more like "the defense could not give the offense a cushion when the shots were falling, so the offense didn't have any wiggle room"

i'm not saying the offense is perfect here, it certainly is not. and I'm sure duke will continue to work on the offense in practice....there's certainly room to improve....

but #2 offense....#96 defense.....it's not hard to reason which side of the floor is the main culprit of the struggles.

Statistical backing or not, we sure weren't the #2 offense in the last half of the Clemson game. 22 points.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-13-2014, 05:12 AM
nice straw man. nobody is saying MP3 is the solution to all our problems, but rather that he could help strengthen one of our glaring weaknesses. When Parker was getting worked over by (?)Nnoko(?) because he is like 4 inches shorter, Marshall could have been a reasonable response there by a) being tall b) causing Clemson to look to another player b/c the obvious size advantage was gone or c) preventing the offensive rebound and then and-1 foul due to a). Even if it was for only 3 or 4 minutes MP3 could have made a difference, b/c there was a 3-4 minute stretch there when Nnoko scored directly over Parker several times.
Parker has shown he is an excellent offensive player, but playing him as a 5 is a mistake, one that K keeps repeating with absolutely no change in the results. Parker has poor timing, poor positioning and poor instincts when it comes to screens/picks etc. If he were defending the 4, i think at least some of those deficiencies would be reduced. The kid can play, but he needs to be used in a way that maximizes his talents and minimizes his weaknesses. The way the coaches are currently asking him to play exposes his weaknesses more and reduces his chances to use his talents. That is a poor strategy, and one that needs to change if this team is to reach its potential.

I think perhaps you are misusing "straw man," but I digress. I do acknowledge that no one here was suggesting Marshall will ride on a white horse with lance (Thomas) in hand to lead us to a title. But there does seem to be unwarranted optimism that MP3 has talents we have not seen.

Several posters on this thread have said that all MP3 needs to do is put his hands up, be tall, and be enthusiastic and this will somehow represent a major upgrade. This oversimplification denegrates our current team and our opponents.

I again acknowledge that I would love to see MP3 start tonight and be the answer to a lot of our deficiencies, but, I would like someone to please offer an explanation of why Coach K would not be playig him more if he had talents we are not seeing? I sincerely doubt it comes down to stubborness.

Go Duke! Beat UVA!

TruBlu
01-13-2014, 05:27 AM
What kills me is that I feel like if we took our top 8 guys and had them play Clemson's in a pickup game, out on a playground with no coaches and no refs (call your own fouls), we would completely destroy them. We just have such a huge talent advantage. Same with ND and certainly Vermont and ECU. So what the heck is going on? Conventional wisdom would suggest that when you have more talent and lose it's the coach's fault, but Coach K's career speaks for itself and I don't believe he all of a sudden forgot how to coach three months ago. So the only other explanation is that I (and many others) have completely, grossly overestimated the talent levels of the players on this team. And I don't believe that to be true either. I'm just stumped.

The bolded is true IMHO. A few years ago (don't remember which game), we were trailing. Coach K told his players during a pause in the action to "just play", and we came back to win. Possibly our guys (including coaches) are over-thinking the game instead of "just playing" the game.

OldPhiKap
01-13-2014, 06:31 AM
The bolded is true IMHO. A few years ago (don't remember which game), we were trailing. Coach K told his players during a pause in the action to "just play", and we came back to win. Possibly our guys (including coaches) are over-thinking the game instead of "just playing" the game.

That was against Maryland in the ACC semi I believe, maybe 2001 or so.


On the broader topic: I think that many are discounting the fact that this is a young team, and road games are a challenge. Not saying we are playing great -- but a conference road loss doesn't send me into a blue funk either.

This team has not learned how to play with full efficient effort for 40 minutes. I do not think it is a matter of X's and O's or line-up. One of the captains needs to call a players-only meeting, and get their minds right.

Wander
01-13-2014, 06:45 AM
Statistical backing or not, we sure weren't the #2 offense in the last half of the Clemson game. 22 points.

Sure, but it's one half of one game against a team with a fantastic defense. No real need to panic about anything on that end right now. Look at the big picture - our offense has been great all year, our defense has sucked all year.

kAzE
01-13-2014, 07:04 AM
Well, we're not going to switch entirely to zone, so we're going to have to switch up our defense while staying true to M2M principles. I wonder if the 2010 defense might be the realistic answer for this team. Just back off and don't let them in the paint. If they get a step on you, funnel them towards a help defender and make it tough for them to get a clean run to the rim. What we're doing right now isn't working. Cook is getting consistently beat off the dribble, and it's causing a ton of problems for the rest of the defense. If someone has to come help off their man to stop penetration, that's one guy who isn't going to be covered or boxed out, and will likely get an open pass or an easy offensive rebound. Against a team like Clemson that doesn't have a ton of great outside shooters, I just really don't get why we were playing them so close on the perimeter. Obviously, we don't have the quickness to pressure for 40 minutes, so why not shrink the defense just a tad?

Matches
01-13-2014, 07:46 AM
If we were looking at a situation where the problem was effort or execution alone, this type of message might work.

But unless that kind if change is accompanied by strategic changes we need to make, it's not going to matter.



Yea, I think as fans anytime the team is underperforming, we want to "fix" the problem by:

1. Having K yell at the team (i.e. make them try harder);
2. Changing the starting lineup/ rotation; or
3. Playing zone.

Hopefully we can all acknowledge that 3. isn't happening, at least not for more than a possession here or there. 1. is essentially a gimmick - it might work with a team that is just in a funk but will not cure our problems.

We have a lot of talented parts that do not fit together in an obvious way. K's run a ton of different combinations out there - think about how all over the map minutes have been for Sheed, TT, Hairston, Amile, and Dawkins. Yet our defense still sucks.

How to fix it? It's the proverbial sticky wicket.

Cook in particular is getting killed off the dribble. The fix many have suggested is to play more sagging MTM, 2010-style. The problem with that is that our backcourt is much shorter than it was in 2010, esp. when Cook and TT are in the game together. Sagging MTM will allow easier access to the post, which then exploits our other weakness - interior D.

As such, sagging MTM requires lineup changes. I know some folks want to see a shift to a big lineup, with Jabari at the 3 and Amile/ MP3 playing the 4/5. This is, however, not workable. There are 80 minutes to be played at the 4/5, and realistically we're not going to get more than 50-55 combined out of Amile/ MP3 (and that's probably a major stretch). So unless we want Josh playing 30 minutes in the post, Jabari has to slide down to the 4 and take a lot of those minutes - meaning Hood's back at the 3 and we're once again small in the backcourt. As others have pointed out, also, a two-big lineup with Jabari at the 3 creates a ton of spacing issues and clogs the paint.

IOW the problems we have are not solved with a simple adjustment - they are systemic. Putting MP3 in the game for 10-15 minutes doesn't keep our guards from getting killed off the dribble - all is does is put our best rebounder (Amile) on the bench.

I'm flummoxed, to be honest. It's hard for me to fathom how a team so full of terrific athletes can be so bad at defending MTM. I'm not buying the "youth" defense - we've had young teams before, and they were much better at defending than this team. If the solution was easy, I feel pretty confident K would have reached it by now.

dyedwab
01-13-2014, 08:25 AM
To me, it feels like the Marshall conversation is like the discussion we had two years ago involving Michael Gbinje. (and let me state from the outset that I'm not opposed at all to giving Marshall more minutes, esp. after the 2nd half on Clemson. But here goes.

1) Duke has an obvious physical weakness (This year height/inside "presence" and in 2011-12, no athletic wings.)
2) Just watching Duke play on television or in the stands it is is to see that this problem exists.
3) Coach K, because he has eyes and is on the bench in every game, sees that this is a problem. (I realize this is a supposition, but I'm assuming we all can go along with it, since someone like me sees it and all I do is watch basketball on TV)
4) Duke has a player of the physical type that would seem to fix the problem (Marshall this year, Gbinje in 2011-12).
5) Despite having a player of a physical type to fix the problem, he plays sparingly. Yet the problem continues to exists.
6) This, despite the fact the Coach K sees all the games, plus has collected game tape which he and his coaches study, plus he sees them in practice, which those of us who only have "fan access" to the team don't.
7) Despite that, many people argue that the problem will be solved if only we insert said player were inserted into the lineup.

To me, what this suggests, besides typical fan "backup quarterback syndrome" is the following:

1) Our problems are more complicated then just changing the rotation would suggest.
2) Changing our player rotation is not separate from systemic changes in strategy and tactics.
3) Coach K may not be ready, willing, or able to make that systemic change - perhaps because he's stubborn, or because the team is having enough trouble picking up the system we are currently using that changing to another one would be harmful, or because our personnel don't fit the new system, or any number of reasons for not making the change.
4) The fact that we can't change our system radically in January when what we are currently doing has obvious and exploitable flaws that have cost us games against vastly inferior teams may have larger repercussions for any potential run into and through the tournament.

Cameron
01-13-2014, 09:00 AM
Some of you must think Marshall's only role in practice is to fetch water for Josh and Tyler or something.

Of course Coach K has tried Marshall at center. Of course Coach K has given Marshall plenty of time in lineups with Jabari and Rodney and the rest of the starters and evaluated him.

What you're actually asking for is this: you want Coach K to use Marshall for extended minutes in a televised non-blowout game so you yourself can confirm whether he deserves those minutes or not. Because, in reality, Coach K has already tried Marshall and already has an opinion about this.

Now maybe his opinion is awful, and sight unseen, us fans have a better idea than him about the amount of minutes that Marshall should play in competitive games. Fine. I'm actually less bothered by that argument than the "Why not try?" one. And I have been as hopeful as anyone on the Marshall front, going back to the offseason.

My own feeling is that you are treating that "why not try" comment with far too much seriousness, but yeah. I get that Coach K attends Duke practices. And I have laid out my reasons why I think Marshall would be a positive contributor to this team if granted a larger role in several posts on this board now. As for what’s happening in practice, none – or very few – of us here really know. Maybe Marshall isn’t great in practice. Maybe he is and Coach K just wants to play a different way. I will say this. It wouldn’t be the first time in the history of basketball that a player, for whatever reason, simply got the short end of the straw. The coach is typically right when it comes to evaluating his team, especially at this level, but nobody is right or makes the correct decisions 100 percent of the time. This isn't some revolutionary insight, but we're all human.

Above all, I am frustrated with Marshall's inconsistent playing time despite the many bright spots he has demonstrated in the limited minutes he has been out there – most notably, in his fearless pursuit to shift his massive frame around inside, attack the glass for boards and disrupt shot attempts, as well as his already strong understanding of the importance of second-chance points from offensive rebounds. I am interested to see what he could do if his minutes were significantly increased to a steady, every-game role -- even just 15 to 18 minutes -- and given the trust of the staff to truly learn on the job. (Sending him onto the court ice cold at a random juncture of the game and essentially saying, "Show us what you got. You have 90 seconds," is not learning on the job.) No other variation of our rotation to this point in the season has worked particularly well or helped to solve our deficiencies in the post. So let's throw Marshall into real game action against not just mid-majors but top teams and give him the opportunity to grow. Dude's built like a baby oak tree and super athletic with ever-improving mobility as he continues to mature into his body. Given his upside, I believe it would be in our best interests to begin to develop Marshall's future right now. Feel free to disagree.

As far as Marshall's actual participation in game action this season goes, I am at complete odds with your suggestion that he has spent "plenty of time" on the court and that the sample size we have is enough to make a sufficient determination of whether or not he should be afforded more minutes in "competitive games." In our eight games against teams from the Big Five conferences (Big XII, SEC, Pac-12, Big Ten and ACC), Marshall has registered a combined 19 minutes of action, which averages out to 2.3 minutes per game, mostly coming in sporadic intervals. His eight games against opponents from Big Five schools include two DNP-CD, (1) one-minute game, (1) two-minute game, (2) three-minute games and (1) four-minute game. Coach K is pretty much a hero of mine and it’s true that he has more national championships than I do wins, but I simply disagree with the premise that one or two minutes is enough time to properly evaluate a player's performance in "competitive games." All we have to really go by is what Marshall has done against lower-level mid-major teams, and he's done an admirable if not great job in the rare chunks of minutes alloted. And yet, his playing time is still pretty much non-existent.

We can simply disagree on agreeing.

ice-9
01-13-2014, 09:01 AM
This is a tough one. But I don't know that line-up changes are the answer. I think the best return for training time is to focus on defensive fundamentals. Like blocking out; running back to stop the break; switching; hedging; etc. We were fine in the first half, and we looked lost in the second; like a team with poor defensive IQ.

I remember one sequence where Rodney was fronting his man in the post on defense as a Clemson guard drove in from the top of the key and successfully got near the basket. Rodney continued to front his man and as the Clemson guard missed his layup, Rodney's man easily corralled the offensive rebound and went up for an and one. Ouch.

This is just one example of poor defensive IQ; I noticed many similar mistakes like that during the game. Parker is guilty for a lot of this as well. Those two guys play a lot of minutes, and when they continue to make mistakes like that the team suffers. So you guys might talk about Marshall vs. Amile vs. Hairston, but to me, it's about those two guys getting better on defense.

I know there's a thread showing we're "OK" in terms of defensive rebounding so far in the season, but anyone who watched the Clemson game will plainly see that defensive rebounding was a major reason why we lost. Possibly the biggest. And as the Al Featherston article pointed out, we were outrebounded in every loss and outrebounded our opponents in 11 of our 12 wins. This is a very telling stat. We just don't have a very good defensive IQ right now, and we don't seem to work hard to do all the dirty, physical things necessary to be a good defensive team.

There's no easy fix for stuff like that. These are the fundamentals, and changing players around won't get a significantly different result when your two key players can't defend at a consistently high level. Players just need to look in the mirror, admit there are problems, and focus on getting better on the fundamentals; on doing all the little things that a great defense requires. The kind of stuff Battier is such a master on.

Get the details right, and the right picture will eventually emerge.

Wildling
01-13-2014, 09:16 AM
Some changes I would like to see to add on to the discussion.

1.Something needs to be done to get Jabari out of the lane and out on the wing slashing to the hole. He's in the lane on offense way too much for my liking. Having both Jabari and Hood out on the wings slashing or pulling up for jumpers makes this team indefensible at times. We need this I feel in order to strike fear in opponents. Right now, there isn't a team out there that fears Duke in any way, shape or form. We look wounded, and everyone smells blood in the water.

2. Coach's defensive philosophy isn't working with this team. I think up to this point, it's fair to say Coach K isn't adjusting to the players strengths. He's shoving down their throats his defensive principles, and it's not working.

Defensively, how do does he fix the problem? We know Coach won't go to a zone. And I don't think he should. You can just up and change to a 2-3 zone in the middle of the season and expect it to be effective. I think it can work, but every time he tries it, the players immediately relax in the zone, and leave the wings wide open. K see's that, and that's the end of the 2-3 zone. But that takes time to fix, which he doesn't have. What he can do in my humble opinion, is back off. Sag the defense. Stop hedging the big men on screens, keep them at the free throw line extended and below. Ball pressure on the point guard needs to stop now! Cook is getting eaten up like fried chicken every game. Have him pick up the point a few steps past the 3 point line. We can still deny the pass on the wings, because Cook still has his guy in front of him.

That's it for now. Until I start conjuring up why I'm a better coach then Coach K! :o

bedeviled
01-13-2014, 09:16 AM
#2 offense....#96 defense.....it's not hard to reason which side of the floor is the main culprit of the struggles.Hey, just wanted to respond that I totally agree; there's no doubt about that. But, I don't think our defensive woes necessarily equate to doom. Our offense has been able to cover up our ugliness, including against Arizona, not just mediocre teams.

UrinalCake
01-13-2014, 09:24 AM
Thanks dyedwab, I agree the similarities between Gbinije and Marshall are striking. To a lesser extent I am reminded of Taymon Domzalski, who never seemed to play despite filling a position of need and, according to rumors, dominating in practice.

A few weeks ago Coach K made that comment about us not having a center, and then the next game he played Marshall for like six minutes, his longest stretch, and Marshall played very well. I was hoping this would start an upward trend in his minutes, but it hasn't happened. Something doesn't add up. What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall during practice....

Jarhead
01-13-2014, 09:35 AM
Thanks dyedwab, I agree the similarities between Gbinije and Marshall are striking. To a lesser extent I am reminded of Taymon Domzalski, who never seemed to play despite filling a position of need and, according to rumors, dominating in practice.

A few weeks ago Coach K made that comment about us not having a center, and then the next game he played Marshall for like six minutes, his longest stretch, and Marshall played very well. I was hoping this would start an upward trend in his minutes, but it hasn't happened. Something doesn't add up. What I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall during practice....

Just ask Mrs. Jarhead what I shout at the TV during those stumbling moments. "K, hey, put in Plumlee!" In case it hasn't been discussed, check out today's Al Featherston (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/1/13/5303272/dukes-struggles) take on the issue. I'm just saying.

bedeviled
01-13-2014, 09:37 AM
The point that many have made is that inserting Marshall might be beneficial to our offense, not our defense, as it would allow our two special offensive talents to play at their natural positions on both offense and defenseI re-read previous posts, and I didn't find convincing "natural position" arguments for offensive purposes. If we shift to "natural position" on offense, players will probably be guarded by quicker (and often more athletic) players. The logical approach would then be to post up (or shoot over top) instead of slash. But, as others have pointed out, the taller offensive lineup would clog the lane. Despite the height increase, we'd likely have less available feeds, less effective post play, and more congestion to battle toward the rim. I think our current lineup is a positive mismatch on offense as we have quicker, more skilled players than the lugs they are going up against. It seems to me that the greatest gain from a switch on offense would be in rebounding, which I'm not toooooo concerned about.
Addendum: Offense could get a boost from better defense (eg more transition game instead of inbounding after opponent layups!). And defense is clearly our biggest wound. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the points of the "natural position" argument that you considered as aiding both ends of the court

Troublemaker
01-13-2014, 11:12 AM
I am at complete odds with your suggestion that he has spent "plenty of time" on the court

I said that in relation to my comment about practice. You were asking why not try and just experiment with MP3. I'm saying Coach K does have a laboratory and has extensively experimented with him there. Laboratory results don't usually get ignored. Can't pass the flight simulator, can't fly. But now we're starting to cover well-tread ground on the merits of practice evaluation. Didn't mean to drag us there. I will take you up on your offer to agree to disagree.



I am interested to see what he could do if his minutes were significantly increased

Yep, you and a lot of folks. On some level people clamoring for this just want to see for themselves. "Prove it to me, Coach K!" is basically the subtext, if we're being frank.

Kfanarmy
01-13-2014, 11:26 AM
I said that in relation to my comment about practice. You were asking why not try and just experiment with MP3. I'm saying Coach K does have a laboratory and has extensively experimented with him there. Laboratory results don't usually get ignored. Can't pass the flight simulator, can't fly. But now we're starting to cover well-tread ground on the merits of practice evaluation. Didn't mean to drag us there. I will take you up on your offer to agree to disagree.



Yep, you and a lot of folks. On some level people clamoring for this just want to see for themselves. "Prove it to me, Coach K!" is basically the subtext, if we're being frank.

I for one, want to see him be developed in-game, because there is no one at practice capable of replicating other teams bigs. He is not being developed by playing against Duke's undersized (in height and/or weight) interior players in practice. Without one player capable of replicating his competition, how is he being evaluated in practice? It is a frustrating arguement. In the end you are probably right, I do want to see it with my own eyes over a few games.

Kedsy
01-13-2014, 11:36 AM
Yep, you and a lot of folks. On some level people clamoring for this just want to see for themselves. "Prove it to me, Coach K!" is basically the subtext, if we're being frank.

This is a great point. Thanks for making it.

Wildling
01-13-2014, 11:42 AM
In regards to Marshall. He's an able body who can grab a rebound or two, maybe a blocked shot and make some hustle plays. More importantly, give Jabari a break from guarding in the paint. I'm all for it.

uh_no
01-13-2014, 11:42 AM
Hey, just wanted to respond that I totally agree; there's no doubt about that. But, I don't think our defensive woes necessarily equate to doom. Our offense has been able to cover up our ugliness, including against Arizona, not just mediocre teams.

no doubt...i mean the offense is largely very good....unfortunately, they have no margin for error, and an off streak in a game does seem to equate to doom, as it has down the stretch in our 4 losses this year. for all we know, it could have been michigan or UCLA, and we just happened to not have a slow streak on O during that game.

what I can say, though, is it's really tough to string together 4 or 6 straight wins against very good teams if you know your defense is not going to be able to pick you up if the offense is slightly off for a few minutes.

Cameron
01-13-2014, 11:55 AM
Yep, you and a lot of folks. On some level people clamoring for this just want to see for themselves. "Prove it to me, Coach K!" is basically the subtext, if we're being frank.

Not at all. I have seen really good things from Marshall in the games where he's played 12 to 15 minutes and those things are the very areas where this team needs improvement. Against the more "competitive" teams, he only gets two minutes of playing time and often plays decently before being yanked in favor of our regular rotation that is working out so tremendously.

Not sure why the above quote is even a good point. I am not in any way, and I doubt seriously if anyone else here is either, hoping to shove anything into Coach K's face. Just because some here have criticized some of his moves and abstained from full on hero worship, it doesn't mean we have any less respect or admiration for the man. As I said before, Coach K is my guy and I couldn't be happier that he leads my favorite team. However, that doesn't mean I always agree with every move he makes.

oldnavy
01-13-2014, 11:56 AM
Personally, I think the best argument put forward about playing MP3 more is not so much what MP3 would do as an individual, but how it may allow Parker, Hood, and others play more to their strengths.

I would love to see MP3 come in and play lights out himself, but even if he didn't do that, maybe it would help JP et al, ???

... sort of the sum being greater than the parts perhaps?? Lose a little gain a lot?


But once again, who knows better than our staff? Not me.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
01-13-2014, 12:32 PM
This is a great point. Thanks for making it.

I agree. Seems people on both sides would be happy to see MP3 get on the court so that SOMEONE can say "I told you so," either way.

Myself, I am content to let Coach K evaluate talent and I will just watch from my sofa and sip an adult beverage.

Hope to see vast improvement today again UVa,

Go Duke!

uh_no
01-13-2014, 12:35 PM
I agree. Seems people on both sides would be happy to see MP3 get on the court so that SOMEONE can say "I told you so," either way.

Myself, I am content to let Coach K evaluate talent and I will just watch from my sofa and sip an adult beverage.

Hope to see vast improvement today again UVa,

Go Duke!

hot chocolate?????? :P

i think we all hope to see better play tonight....there's no way around it.....the end of the season isn't getting any further away

Matches
01-13-2014, 12:49 PM
I agree. Seems people on both sides would be happy to see MP3 get on the court so that SOMEONE can say "I told you so," either way.


I think sometimes the concept of change is inherently appealing. We look and see that what we're doing now isn't working, and want to try something different. It's the "how could it get worse?" line of logic.

Constant tinkering can do its own type of damage, though. I kind of think K and the staff have tinkered a bit too much this year - guys seem to fall in and out of favor at the drop of a hat. I have no idea what Rasheed Sulaimon's role on the team is, for example, because it seems to change from one game to the next. If changes are made, and I'm not denying that some may be needed, hopefully it would be with an eye toward stabilizing the team and the rotation rather than just trying new combinations because they are new.

dukelion
01-13-2014, 12:51 PM
I foresee relatively minor changes tonight. I fully expect Matt Jones to get some run (he was inserted late against Clemson doing the defense for offense rotation with Dawkins) especially considering his defense was praised earlier in the year.

And yes I also see Marshall getting some minutes but most likely in 3-4 range as has been the case recently.

To me the biggest improvement that needs to happen is the post-game of Jabari. IMO he was (and Duke was) at their best against Michigan when he operated almost exclusively in the mid to high post and more importantly defended/rebounded solidly against a pretty physical Michigan front line. Like it or not, at 6 9 and 240 Jabari is our most talented post defender and will be for the remainder of this season. He needs to step up and not allow guys like to Nnoko to play volleyball in front of the rim.

Jabari played better last game but I still feel hes in a bit of rut.

As he goes Duke goes from here on out.

Saratoga2
01-13-2014, 01:15 PM
Some of you must think Marshall's only role in practice is to fetch water for Josh and Tyler or something.

Of course Coach K has tried Marshall at center. Of course Coach K has given Marshall plenty of time in lineups with Jabari and Rodney and the rest of the starters and evaluated him.

What you're actually asking for is this: you want Coach K to use Marshall for extended minutes in a televised non-blowout game so you yourself can confirm whether he deserves those minutes or not. Because, in reality, Coach K has already tried Marshall and already has an opinion about this.

Now maybe his opinion is awful, and sight unseen, us fans have a better idea than him about the amount of minutes that Marshall should play in competitive games. Fine. I'm actually less bothered by that argument than the "Why not try?" one. And I have been as hopeful as anyone on the Marshall front, going back to the offseason.


Marshall has seen little floor time in recent games, but that which he has seen has been competitive with our other bigs. That argument has been used by several contributors and to me has validity. He is 7' and 260 pounds and plays with energy. He might well do as well or better than some of the alternatives.

Troublemaker
01-13-2014, 01:50 PM
Not sure why the above quote is even a good point. I am not in any way, and I doubt seriously if anyone else here is either, hoping to shove anything into Coach K's face.

I don't think you want to "shove it" in Coach K's face. Not sure how you got that. I have no issues with you, Cameron. Quite the contrary, actually. I enjoy most of your posts.


Marshall has seen little floor time in recent games, but that which he has seen has been competitive with our other bigs. That argument has been used by several contributors and to me has validity. He is 7' and 260 pounds and plays with energy. He might well do as well or better than some of the alternatives.

I haven't been unhappy with Marshall's performances in his short stints, either. Although I don't really have a strong opinion either way because the samples are so small. As I've said before, I'm a big fan of Marshall and have been hopeful since the preseason that he is good enough to play 10-15 mpg eventually.

Troublemaker
01-13-2014, 02:38 PM
Getting back to the thread topic, possible changes...

One thing that will likely change from the Clemson game is Amile will go back to guarding the center primarily. He has generally done much better than Jabari at that assignment.

For a really wacky change, though, it's possible the coaches could have Jabari and Rodney flip defensive assignments as well. That is, Jabari guards the 3 and Rodney guards the 4. While I don't love the idea of Rodney guarding 4s and I have no clue how well Jabari guards wings, I see this as a possibility because Jabari has struggled so much defending ball screens.

Typically teams will ball screen using their 4s and 5s, so theoretically, making this move would decrease Jabari's involvement in those actions. Now, it's possible Rodney wouldn't fare better at defending them but I'd be surprised since Jabari has been, imo, very poor hedging, communicating, and overall making the proper decisions when his man goes to screen. Obviously, some teams (including UVA) can post up Rodney if he were guarding 4s, but I view that as the lesser of two evils at this point (and Jabari doesn't fare well with post defense anyway). We have to get better at defending penetration, which can be helped tremendously by getting better at ball screen defense. That's my wacky thought of the day.

gurufrisbee
01-13-2014, 04:22 PM
1. What is wrong with Duke?

Andy Katz: Defense. Defense. Defense. Duke cannot defend at the level it has in previous seasons. The Blue Devils don't have a stopper on the perimeter and they certainly don't possess one inside. They continue to get exploited. Shot selection continues to be an issue as well. Duke associate head coach Steve Wojciechowski said these are fixable. The Blue Devils will find out Monday against a suddenly resurgent Virginia.

Eamonn Brennan: For a while there -- shortly after they gave up 90 points in 65 possessions in a home win over Vermont -- it looked as if Duke was trending in the right direction defensively. The Blue Devils looked better in a loss against Arizona; they handled Michigan in the Big Ten-ACC Challenge; they held an explosive UCLA offense to 63 points in 72 possessions in Madison Square Garden. But they've regressed again, and if you can't guard on the road in conference play, you're doomed to inconsistency.

C.L. Brown: The Blue Devils' undersized frontcourt will be vulnerable defensively against just about every league opponent. Sometimes they can mask it. Some teams will take advantage the way Clemson just did with its starting frontcourt accounting for 48 points and 37 rebounds.