PDA

View Full Version : MBB: Duke 59, Clemson 72 - Post-Game Thread



SupaDave
01-11-2014, 03:06 PM
Place your post game thoughts here.

downeastdad
01-11-2014, 03:07 PM
That's all I have to say. Wow! The sky has officially fallen.

JBDuke
01-11-2014, 03:08 PM
A reminder that destructively negative posts that bash the team and/or coaches will be deleted and cited.

duke09hms
01-11-2014, 03:08 PM
Football school. Will Cut's team be ranked higher than K's team this Monday?

Duke Football finished 23.

TKG
01-11-2014, 03:08 PM
We are a poor defensive team. We have two talented offensive players but no dependable third option. Lots of work to do.

markbdevil
01-11-2014, 03:08 PM
That's all I have to say. Wow! The sky has officially fallen.

It's over

westwall
01-11-2014, 03:09 PM
-- This was not the same Clemson team that lost -- badly -- to FSU two nights ago.

jv001
01-11-2014, 03:09 PM
There are just too many things to work on after this game, that I'm not even going to post about them. We came close to doing nothing right in the 2nd half. Dribbled too much and didn't move their feet enough. The zone actually might have been our best defense. Really surprised that Marshall didn't even play. This is not a TEAM right now. But I still love em none the less. GoDuke!

CameronDuke
01-11-2014, 03:10 PM
Pretty sure we got out rebounded. Gave up way too many offensive rebounds. Went cold from 3 down the stretch. Jabari looks out of sync with the offense at times. Way too many ticky tack fouls where we reached after being beat on defense because we didn't stay in front or move our feet. I don't think we fought down the stretch either which is disappointing. Shots weren't falling but we gave up on defense.

UVA at home on Monday just became a very important game. If we drop that one I think we are on the bubble for the NCAA tournament.

jipops
01-11-2014, 03:10 PM
Dadgummit we're 1-2.

I don't understand the logic on defense at all.

PSurprise
01-11-2014, 03:10 PM
Not sure what to say. I keep hoping that this team can make a surprise turnaround come March, but they've got a loooong way to go, and the time ain't getting any longer.

devildeac
01-11-2014, 03:11 PM
K has (a) monumental task(s) ahead of him for the rest of the year.

bbosbbos
01-11-2014, 03:11 PM
Call me Little. I think we are a very poor team now. There is not any improvement, but a lot of regression.


That's all I have to say. Wow! The sky has officially fallen.

dairedevil
01-11-2014, 03:11 PM
After reading the in-game threads, I think it's time for us to stop mocking the IC meltdown....the main difference is that Duke doesn't have an academic scandal to distract them.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 03:11 PM
Discuss the game here, but please keep it civil. Thanks!

I am worried about this team. Lots if individual talent but it is not coming together. I expected Duke to have a tough game but not to lose by double digits. The lack of inside scoring gives no ability to come back. The lack of inside D is killing Duke. They will need to figure this out. K has not made adjustments but sometimes they do not come without failure. This team will be stronger for it but be prepared for a rocky season. NCAA tourney is not a given at this point. Only good news - we are not peaking early.

jimrowe0
01-11-2014, 03:11 PM
This is one of the more frustrating teams to watch. They lack leadership, heart, and cohesion. Back to the drawing boards because we aren't getting it done on either end of the floor. I am firmly in the Plumlee needs to play boat. We got destroyed on the boards and not shot blocking allows drivers to get easy buckets. I thought the zone play should have been used more making Clemson shoot more jumpers rather than allowing them into the paint.

RoyalBlue08
01-11-2014, 03:11 PM
As long as Hood and Parker don't look to involve their teammates on offense, we are going to struggle against solid defenses.

Chicago 1995
01-11-2014, 03:11 PM
A reminder that destructively negative posts that bash the team and/or coaches will be deleted and cited.

I'm not sure what we can say that won't be destructively negative. That's how bad the last two Saturday's have been.

I kid, mostly.

We have to change the rotation and the defensive approach, and we have to find something offensively that works other than jumpshooting.

In other words, we need a mulligan on the season. The season up to this point has been, more or less, a complete and utter miss and we've got to start over from scratch.

jv001
01-11-2014, 03:12 PM
-- This was not the same Clemson team that lost -- badly -- to FSU two nights ago.

Right now FSU is better than Duke. And I'm not talking about football either. GoDuke!

lotusland
01-11-2014, 03:12 PM
I was blacked out on ESPN3. Now I have a couple of hours free this evening now as I won't need to watch the replay. Maybe I'll watch the replay of Cuse over Heels instead.

dukebluesincebirth
01-11-2014, 03:12 PM
So frustrating... No defense, no rebounding. What does this team do well? No zone in the 2nd half? No mp3 at all? Embarrassing.

wsb3
01-11-2014, 03:13 PM
I was really excited pre season about this team. I wasn't banking on them cutting down the nets but I did not think it out of the question. But with the athleticism I thought it would be a fun team to watch despite the lack of any post play, but they are exhausting to watch.

The way we finished the first half was crucial. I believe we got up by 10 and before you could blink it was 5. Maybe it is the lack of leadership I don't know but we do not play well at crucial times. We melted in the last ten minutes.

That is as civil as I can be at the moment and I am going in the garage and hit the heavy bag until my attitude improves.

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 03:13 PM
This team should be out of the top 25. Game plans are horrible, Parker looks tired all the time, the one person who does score, Hood, barely sees the ball in the 2nd half. The officiating seems quite content on not giving us the same calls, 2 times out players who had the ball get hit in the face and nothing called. Every time Mcdaniels got touched it was a foul. There is a major discrepancy in the way we are allowed to play, vs how the other team is allowed. 5 mins to go Clemson, who is as physical as any other team is in the double bonus, we haven't even made it to the single bonus. Congrats ACC this is officially becoming the Big East. All of that crap about more touch fouls beig called is garbage. You can't expect kids to keep fighting in a hostile environment when they are being manhandled physically

Matches
01-11-2014, 03:13 PM
We've known all season that this team was a work in progress.

I have to say, though, that by this point in the season I would've hoped to see more progress. We don't look much better than we did in November.

There's still time but it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a long way yet to go.

BlueDevilBrowns
01-11-2014, 03:14 PM
Place your post game thoughts here.

We're a bubble team unless we improve.

A team with good individual parts that don't fit together.

A defensive scheme that doesn't fit our personnel.

An offense that's completely reliant on jump shooting.

K and staff have a lot of work to do.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 03:14 PM
-- This was not the same Clemson team that lost -- badly -- to FSU two nights ago.

Or the one that will lose the next game. Mark it fown. You beat Duke you get on Sports Center. You beat Wake you may make your school paper. Teams come to play against Duke. This team has not learned to match that intensity.

Cameron
01-11-2014, 03:14 PM
It's over might not actually be hyperbole this time.

Obviously, I say that in jest, but we just aren't as good as we thought. That much is clear. We just got beat by 13 by a team that, despite being utterly inferior talent-wise, simply wanted to win the game more. And that has happened twice in the last three games for us. That is scary.

I thought Rodney had another excellent game offensively. He has 74 points in his last three. The kid has really stepped up his game while the majority of the team has regressed.

Other than that, there's not much positive to say, so I'll leave it at that.

CameronBlue
01-11-2014, 03:14 PM
we are getting out rebounded badly.
Is Marshall Plumlee that bad he can't give us atleast 5 mins in the post? I am perplexed at his development after 2.5 years.

It's amusing that MP3s name keeps popping up in conversation because it seems apparent that K has no plan that requires a substantive contribution from Plumlee this year. It's just the strategy he prefers with this team, nothing against Plumlee. We can divert the conversation and discuss earning minutes in practice or faulting Plumlee for a missed assignment here or there but K is not going to play him if he feels it will only marginally improve the team's chances...or not at all ..and it's his prerogative of course it's K's vision for the team and no one should doubt that in MCBB K is a visionary. It is almost comical to see Parker wailing away on defense against Clemson's bigs however but barring a change of strategy we'll see more of that for the rest of the year as we have to date. At present the trajectory of this team is not good. Hopefully it will change

Chicago 1995
01-11-2014, 03:15 PM
We've known all season that this team was a work in progress.

I have to say, though, that by this point in the season I would've hoped to see more progress. We don't look much better than we did in November.

There's still time but it's becoming increasingly obvious that we have a long way yet to go.

If anything, we're regressing, not progressing.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 03:15 PM
We're a bubble team unless we improve.

A team with good individual parts that don't fit together.

A defensive scheme that doesn't fit our personnel.

An offense that's completely reliant on jump shooting.

K and staff have a lot of work to do.

K will need to earn his money. This is a coaching issue. There is a mismatch of talent and style.

DukeDevil
01-11-2014, 03:15 PM
maybe this is a strategy to get as many teams into the tourney as possible?...maybe?

Clay Feet POF
01-11-2014, 03:16 PM
I'm not sure what we can say that won't be destructively negative. That's how bad the last two Saturday's have been.

I kid, mostly.

We have to change the rotation and the defensive approach, and we have to find something offensively that works other than jumpshooting.

In other words, we need a mulligan on the season. The season up to this point has been, more or less, a complete and utter miss and we've got to start over from scratch.

Watching this game I kept thinking what Bill Walton's commentary would be.

miramar
01-11-2014, 03:16 PM
41-22. Ouch.

Dukeface88
01-11-2014, 03:16 PM
Is anyone else tired of the whole "panic with ten minutes left, go 1 on 1 every possession, lose" thing, or is it just me? The offensive system worked great earlier this year; the players just needs to trust that the team offense will work when the game gets close instead of freaking out and trying to win the game individually.

Chicago 1995
01-11-2014, 03:18 PM
It's amusing that MP3s name keeps popping up in conversation because it seems apparent that K has no plan that requires a substantive contribution from Plumlee this year. It's just the strategy he prefers with this team, nothing against Plumlee. We can divert the conversation and discuss earning minutes in practice or faulting Plumlee for a missed assignment here or there but K is not going to play him if he feels it will only marginally improve the team's chances...or not at all ..and it's his prerogative of course it's K's vision for the team and no one should doubt that in MCBB K is a visionary. It is almost comical to see Parker wailing away on defense against Clemson's bigs however but barring a change of strategy we'll see more of that for the rest of the year as we have to date. At present the trajectory of this team is not good. Hopefully it will change

Would it matter at this point if we were worse with MP3 on the floor? We lose to ND and Clemson by 10 more points, maybe? Does that matter?

Kfanarmy
01-11-2014, 03:18 PM
so a recommendation would be to quit rejoicing in other people losing while the team is playing. It's Karma biting you in the backside when Duke all of a sudden goes cold.

The team went ice cold in the second half...and it gave Clemson a lot of chances to get the ball down quickly, they basically spanked Duke in the last 10...Duke had open perimeter shots but couldn't hit anything.

Offensively, they still absolutely refuse to pass within the interior, so a big with good initial position simply kills anything they try to do inside.
On defense, the 1st half was decent, second half was atrocious largely because Clemson was breaking them down and there is NO INTERIOR presence...no one big enough to alter a shot. When Duke's players are both smaller and out of position, I don't get not playing Marshall. Even if he gets out of position, he still has size...I just don't get it. Make the commitment now to let him grow in game situations, so he can develop. The guys out there now are not going to get any bigger and he's just as likely to improve defensively as they are.

Duke still wins this game if they don't go cold, but they can't win when the outside shot isn't working against average teams.

FerryFor50
01-11-2014, 03:18 PM
Is anyone else tired of the whole "panic with ten minutes left, go 1 on 1 every possession, lose" thing, or is it just me? The offensive system worked great earlier this year; the players just needs to trust that the team offense will work when the game gets close instead of freaking out and trying to win the game individually.

Yep. The defense isn't good, so when you start playing poorly on offense, snowball effect.

Saratoga2
01-11-2014, 03:18 PM
Drastically out-rebounded. Zero rebounds for Rodney seemed odd. Andre got 6 so he produced in that way anyway.
Out toughed
Offense sputtered in 2nd half

What can be done to help?

Could a lineup with Jabari at the 3 and Rodney at the 2 and with Amile at the 4 and Marshall at the 5 work? At this point, something drastic needs to be attempted.

Bay Area Duke Fan
01-11-2014, 03:18 PM
I thought Rodney had another excellent game offensively. He has 74 points in his last three. The kid has really stepped up his game while the majority of the team has regressed.

If only he could play defense ....

Matches
01-11-2014, 03:18 PM
41-22. Ouch.

Lack of composure down the stretch was a big factor in that margin being so large.

As soon as we got behind I felt like the game was over. I rarely feel that way about a Duke team, even playing on the road. We're just missing something.

KandG
01-11-2014, 03:19 PM
Was going to spend a lot of money to take my family to Cameron in February. But the effort and glaring weaknesses lately have been disheartening. Good guys, and they can still get better, but the flaws and execution against inferior teams are so striking that it's frankly not much fun to watch them. It's not even about winning or losing, but what kind of effort is produced regardless of the opponent.

Right now, it's just disappointing, even though I feel they'll find a way to get better, though I may be speaking out of blind faith more than anything.

CajunDevil
01-11-2014, 03:20 PM
Small ball is losing. We can not defend or rebound bigs sufficiently to withstand our offensive droughts. Offensively, there were no set plays for Jabari in the post. This is utterly ridiculous. When you have the ultimate weapon, you utilize him. You go to him consistently.

Why no Marshall? And, don't give me the usual 'practice determines playing time' garbage... When you are getting killed on the boards you play height, especially when that person has performed at least as well as the bigs you are playing instead.

This is so frustrating. I hope K has a plan, bc right now this is one of his worst coaching jobs, imho.

Lineup I want to see - Cook, Hood, Jabari, Amile, Plumlee.

wsb3
01-11-2014, 03:20 PM
41-22. Ouch.

22? as if I did not feel bad enough. Maybe another argument for Marshall playing more. I know he has a different body but don't you fear that Parker playing out of position is/will wear him down like it did Kyle when he was a freshman?

throatybeard
01-11-2014, 03:21 PM
We are misrecoupergressing!

DukeWarhead
01-11-2014, 03:21 PM
I keep telling myself that I am going to step away from Duke ball and not get so bent around the axle with each loss. Never able to really do it. But this season, I might just be able to. Games like this make you wish you didn't care so much.

hudlow
01-11-2014, 03:23 PM
K will need to earn his money. This is a coaching issue. There is a mismatch of talent and style.

Agreed - this might be Coach K's biggest challenge yet.

hud

duke4ever19
01-11-2014, 03:23 PM
I still believe that this team can come together and do something special... but only if Marshall starts seeing the floor.

Jay Bilas said that Marshall should be getting 10-15 minutes a game (with Amile getting over 20 min) for Duke to really have a chance to realize its potential by March. I happen to agree.

CajunDevil
01-11-2014, 03:23 PM
22? as if I did not feel bad enough. Maybe another argument for Marshall playing more. I know he has a different body but don't you fear that Parker playing out of position is/will wear him down like it did Kyle when he was a freshman?

I absolutely agree. Play Marshall now. Give Jabari the best chance for success, which will in turn, give this team the best chance for success long-term. Painful to watch...

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 03:24 PM
Why does Parker always look tired?

DukieInBrasil
01-11-2014, 03:24 PM
Is anyone else tired of the whole "panic with ten minutes left, go 1 on 1 every possession, lose" thing, or is it just me? The offensive system worked great earlier this year; the players just needs to trust that the team offense will work when the game gets close instead of freaking out and trying to win the game individually.

This to me is the greatest weakness of this team on offense. Duke has had the lead in the second half in each of the games it has lost this year, and by at least 10 points a few times. And then the offense just stops working, usually after a series of seriously terrible defensive possessions.

dyedwab
01-11-2014, 03:24 PM
Strategy, tactics, the rotation, Zone v Man to Man, lack of a post presence v lack of perimeter defense, etc. seem to be a moot point right now.

This team has way more talent then Clemson (or ND or Vermont), but have been outplayed. We were beaten to every loose ball in the last few games.

We can fix the specific basketball problem if this team can 1) Focus for 40 minutes (we built a 10 point lead - again - and then cruised), 2) Figure out how to play defense in spite of specific deficiencies, and 3) make smarter decision - trying to be solid instead of spectacular.

Anyway, not seeing this team improve is very, very frustrating

CajunDevil
01-11-2014, 03:25 PM
Why does Parker always look tired?

Because he's playing out of position (guarding opponents bigs) and being asked to shoulder the load on offense too...

75Crazie
01-11-2014, 03:26 PM
K will need to earn his money. This is a coaching issue. There is a mismatch of talent and style.
Three wonderfully short, succinct sentences that somehow says it all.

duke4ever19
01-11-2014, 03:27 PM
Why does Parker always look tired?

Some guys just look tired when they play. As long as he isn't actually tired. I remember frequently having the impression that Jay (Jason) Williams had just run a half-marathon before the tip-off. 3792

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 03:28 PM
Hmm is it just me, or is the scoring down in the ACC. I mean not that the whole officiating thing was a plain flat out lie, because I thought it was suppose to increase scoring. But I guess the TV doesn't stay on for blowouts. We should just change the name to the Big East, because thy apparently is what they are shooting for

DukeCrow
01-11-2014, 03:29 PM
Every time we drove inside and got blocked, Amile was open because his man went over to help. Our drivers need to look to pass on that. Also, Amile was open every time he rolled to the basket. Only Tyler found him a couple times in the first half.

Hate to say it, but the team is playing a little too selfishly right now. It especially showed after we fell behind with individuals trying to play hero ball. Hopefully, this is a correctable problem.

Furniture
01-11-2014, 03:30 PM
After reading the in-game threads, I think it's time for us to stop mocking the IC meltdown....the main difference is that Duke doesn't have an academic scandal to distract them.

I was thinking that. I think the mods should delete that thread...

Ever heard of the one that laughs last laughs loudest?

BlueDevilBrowns
01-11-2014, 03:31 PM
Why does Parker always look tired?

See Singler, Kyle circa 2008.

DrChainsaw
01-11-2014, 03:31 PM
I need something beside bourbon to help me with this one.....

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 03:32 PM
Agreed - this might be Coach K's biggest challenge yet.

hud

Well the season has been officially reset. We are out of the top 20 - maybe 25 and 1-2 in the new ACC. Duke will need to fight to make it back. This will be challenging year- fortunately there is time. But this may be a rebuilding phase. A young team and if Jabari and Hood go pro- next year will have similar issues. Quinn, Rasheed and Amile need to become leaders this season. K's resolve will also be tested as Roy's is being tested in Chapel Hill. I suspect that K has not been as focused the last few weeks. This could be affecting the team in a big way.

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 03:33 PM
See Singler, Kyle circa 2008.

Yeah I get that, but even when he comes in after being on the bench for 10 mins, he still looks tired

TKG
01-11-2014, 03:33 PM
My concern is that beating UVA (in Cameron) on Tuesday will result in a sense of all-is-well; particularly if no changes are made to the line up, rotation and/or defensive scheme. IMO that is what happened after the road loss to ND and the home win over Tech that followed.

BlueDevilBrowns
01-11-2014, 03:34 PM
We still want a team at the end of the season with some values, and more focused on winning than hoping everyone loses.

Not being political, just using a play-on-words to illustrate a need for changes.

FerryFor50
01-11-2014, 03:35 PM
I think we need to put things in perspective.

For example, isn't this puppy cute?

3793

FireOgilvie
01-11-2014, 03:35 PM
This is the softest Duke team I remember seeing. Zero toughness. That should be addressed first. Nate James can help.

Also, I would love to see us completely change our game and go really up-tempo, push the ball, and really go after the ball on defense. Lots of substitutions and more Plumlee. It would be easier to hide his weaknesses in a game like that (less sitting back on our heels in the half court sets on defense). We'd give up a lot of easy points, but it might give us the best chance to win against a lot of teams.

I knew this year would be frustrating because we have no proven inside presence and our best guys on offense have no defensive ability, but we have some of the most offensively gifted players in the country. It would be nice to maximize that.

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 03:38 PM
This is the softest Duke team I remember seeing. Zero toughness. That should be addressed first. Nate James can help.

Also, I would love to see us completely change our game and go really up-tempo, push the ball, and really go after the ball on defense. Lots of substitutions and more Plumlee. It would be easier to hide his weaknesses in a game like that (less sitting back on our heels in the half court sets on defense). We'd give up a lot of easy points, but it might give us the best chance to win against a lot of teams.

I knew this year would be frustrating because we have no proven inside presence and our best guys on offense have no defensive ability, but we have some of the most offensively gifted players in the country. It would be nice to maximize that.
Yeah every time Cook walks up the floor I want to pull my hair out

Furniture
01-11-2014, 03:38 PM
Agreed - this might be Coach K's biggest challenge yet.

hud

We do talk a lot about the team need to improve but the coaching team have to wrack their brains and get to work. The kids need help.

Kfanarmy
01-11-2014, 03:38 PM
Well the season has been officially reset. We are out of the top 20 - maybe 25 and 1-2 in the new ACC. Duke will need to fight to make it back. This will be challenging year- fortunately there is time. But this may be a rebuilding phase. A young team and if Jabari and Hood go pro- next year will have similar issues. Quinn, Rasheed and Amile need to become leaders this season. K's resolve will also be tested as Roy's is being tested in Chapel Hill. I suspect that K has not been as focused the last few weeks. This could be affecting the team in a big way. People will begin to understand why Calipari's system is high risk, high reward. the change in focus from getting pieces that fit, to getting as many great pieces as possible means sometimes the great pieces won't fit into a great team. And because they aren't around long, you never get to shape them...let's hope a team can come together as February roles around.

sagegrouse
01-11-2014, 03:39 PM
I watched the FSU-Clemson game Thursday night. Clemson was apocalyptically bad -- no energy, no skill, absolutely no offense, and unimpressive defense. Thursday vs. Saturday is night vs. day. I thought Clemson played well, especially in the second half.

I am afraid this "Lazarus show" is going to be commonplace at road games all season. Op. cit., ND vs. Duke January 6.

Well, we don't have long to lick our wounds -- UVa shows up Monday night for an ESPN game. Getting back on the court right away is probably the best thing that could happen. We'll know soon.

PSurprise
01-11-2014, 03:39 PM
The scary thing for me is that a victory over Duke this year may not be a "signature" win for a team like Clemson

devildeac
01-11-2014, 03:39 PM
I think we need to put things in perspective.

For example, isn't this puppy cute?

3793

You know I hate puppies. And little children. And, I am not in the dadgum New Year's spirit yet either. At least we were able to celebrate Christmas. No thanks to me and arnie-is-still-king.
;):o:rolleyes:

nyesq83
01-11-2014, 03:43 PM
I traded my soul to the Devil in return for a great football program at Duke.

I was wondering why he started laughing as soon as I signed the contract.

"Bwaaaaahaaaaaaahaaaaaa!"

This team needs to show improvement between now and the end of the year, especially on the road.

At this point, that is all we can ask.

dyedwab
01-11-2014, 03:46 PM
Rob Dauster's take in interesting.

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/11/clemson-to-latest-to-upset-underachieving-no-16-duke/

Here's the key quote


Coach K has more than enough offensive weapons at his disposal and more talent on his roster than everyone in the country outside of maybe 10 teams, and that’s being generous. So why are they being outscored 41-22 in the second half by a Tiger team that’s bad enough that it could end up getting the coach fired? Why is this group getting outscored 26-9 to close out a league game?

The answer: I don’t know.

And it doesn’t look like Coach K does, either. At least not right now.

Because if he did, Duke wouldn’t be losing at Notre Dame and they wouldn’t be losing at Clemson.

The Blue Devils are underachieving right now. When was the last time you could say that about one of Coach K’s teams?

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 03:48 PM
While I agree that Marshall should see more minutes, the fact is that will not teach the starters that they have to play hard all the time. K knows that, K also knows that using the zone, probably would have helped is today, BUT we didn't go zone today to slow them down, it was to protect us from silly fouls in the last couple of mins. That would also not solve this teams probs with hustle

I have a crazy theory, that when the guys who are playing, start to figure out that they have to play hard all the time, we will see more Mins for Plumlee. But if we start putting him in while the other guys aren't playing well, he will not be able to play at his full potential

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 03:51 PM
Funny how when the other guys have played hard this year That is when Marshall has seen minutes

CameronBlue
01-11-2014, 03:51 PM
I think we need to put things in perspective.

For example, isn't this puppy cute?

3793

Did it just come from the taxidermist?

brumby041
01-11-2014, 03:52 PM
Or the one that will lose the next game. Mark it fown. You beat Duke you get on Sports Center. You beat Wake you may make your school paper. Teams come to play against Duke. This team has not learned to match that intensity.

This.

Destroyed inside by a couple of nobodies. (I think GMan said that Hollingame averaged something like 2.8 points a game and Nnoke never shoots.) Those two looked like NBA first rounders out there today.

Who wants to bet that they revert to their norm for the rest of the season?

Sad.

MDarby
01-11-2014, 03:52 PM
Several earlier posts talked about the second half meltdowns. That's the thing that has really jumped out at me this year. We've played tough, gotten leads, and then a run by the opponent and we seem to panic, and lose confidence. Then the shots don't drop, and you can see the body language turn negative. Did anyone think we were going to rally today with 5 minutes left? I think Jabari needs to be a small forward, not a center on defense. Whether Marshall is the answer or not, I can't say, but we need more rebounds and better defense and as they say you can't coach 7-ft. I still think we'll be there in March, but it sure hasn't been pretty so far.

dairedevil
01-11-2014, 03:52 PM
I think we need to put things in perspective.

For example, isn't this puppy cute?

3793

Maybe it's time to bring back the pancake bunny........

3794

nyesq83
01-11-2014, 03:53 PM
"While I agree that Marshall should see more minutes, the fact is that will not teach the starters that they have to play hard all the time."

Yeah, but maybe Marshall and the coaches will learn that Marshall can improve and dominate more during his game play.

Furniture
01-11-2014, 03:54 PM
Rob Dauster's take in interesting.

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/11/clemson-to-latest-to-upset-underachieving-no-16-duke/

Here's the key quote

This article makes total sense to me.

The strange thing about K this year is that he doesn't seem to be calling time outs at critical times or he doesn't seem to give the team a hard time when things aren't going right. We may not be seeing it though...

bedeviled
01-11-2014, 03:55 PM
I would love to see us completely change our game and go really up-tempo, push the ball, and really go after the ball on defense..[SNIP]..It would be easier to hide his weaknesses in a game like that (less sitting back on our heels in the half court sets on defense). We'd give up a lot of easy points...I disagree with this except for the last line ;) I suspect that up-tempo and frenetic defense would further expose our defensive woes in positioning and communication.
--Maybe I should add that I am in the camp of a few posters here that the most pressing (haha) problem on defense is perimeter containment.
Anyway, my impression of today was that our defense really suffered from not being able to settle in. It appeared to me that our defense was at the mercy of our offense, contrary to Duke's historical mantra. Our hero ball allowed Clemson to push pace and drive directly to the basket, getting easy buckets and demoralizing us. If our perimeter can't contain an opponent, and our interior defensive positioning/communication is poor, I think aggressive defense is not in our best interest.

As an extension of the above thoughts, I think our defense would benefit from better game management, including on offense. I'm not Cook's biggest fan, so I try to take that into consideration. But, I think Coach K should be doing more play-calling. Yes, we have talented offensive players, but Parker going 1-on-4, Hood not getting any assists with all his touches, and Cook holding the ball at the top of the arc just to launch his own shot do not comprise an offensive game plan that I would like to see. Add to that Sulaimon and Dawkins also looking for their own shots, and it may lead one to appreciate having Tyler and Josh on the *offensive* end, simply for the sake of ball movement!:D

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 03:57 PM
"While I agree that Marshall should see more minutes, the fact is that will not teach the starters that they have to play hard all the time."

Yeah, but maybe Marshall and the coaches will learn that Marshall can improve and dominate more during his game play.

I know but we don't know what really goes on in practice, and we don't have any idea what his plan is for the team, and Marshall. I wish I did

Chicken Little
01-11-2014, 03:57 PM
This is the softest Duke team I remember seeing. Zero toughness. That should be addressed first. Nate James can help.

This.

My least favorite thing to see in a basketball game is the fly-in-rebound-dunk. Mugsey Bogues could stop these by being aware of his surroundings and boxing out. No seven footer needed. I think I saw at least 3 of these by Clemson today. Infuriating when a ball goes up and 5 guys in blue jerseys stand still with their mouths open.

This team needs to get tough and play like they want to win. Head hanging and standing around won't cut it.

FireOgilvie
01-11-2014, 03:58 PM
Maybe Coach K should add Nate to the coaching staff.

Yeah... toughness certainly doesn't seem like a priority in practice right now. It should be.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 04:00 PM
Are you calling Coach K insane?

After another DNP next to Marshall Plumlee's name, and another total domination by the opposing team on the boards (this time 48 to 30), I am. It's nuts, and I seriously want an explanation as to why it's happening.

He is stubborn and hard to blame him- he has been successful with his system. Not working with this bunch. We all see it- I am sure he sees it. The question is whether he will adjust. Can't expect the other team to roll over. Teams are sensing the weakness and attacking. We are making bad talent look good because we are letting them get two feet from the basket. We are also not getting close to the basket. A recipe for a loss.

nyesq83
01-11-2014, 04:01 PM
A bunch of random digits forgetting how to be a fist in these two (three if you include Arizona) road losses.

kAzE
01-11-2014, 04:12 PM
It's getting hard to be an apologist for this team . . . I just don't understand how we are this talented and lose to a team like Clemson. They had a lot of things go their way, but it's not like we lost this game by a few possessions. Our effort was horrendous. I just didn't see any desire from the guys on the court to win the game. It just looked like 5 guys going through the motions.

A couple of glaring defensive mistakes that we are making over and over again:

- Cook guards the ball WAY too high. Apparently, he thinks he's about 3 times as quick as he actually is. Is it so hard to play off the ball just slightly? I get that we want to pressure the ball, but we've got 16 games of tape now on Cook this year, and he's just letting guys get past him way too much. Add Rod Hall to the list of mediocre point guards who have destroyed Cook.
- Jabari apparently doesn't know how to box out. Don't make excuses for him, he's 6'9", 240 pounds. He's plenty big enough to body up opposing centers to compete for defensive rebounds. We got out rebounded by 12 and gave up 14 offensive boards. Add Landry Nnoko to the growing list of mediocre centers to absolutely dominate us.

Offensively, this game was even worse than than the ND game. Our offense regresses in tight games. It's unbelievable. When the game is on the line, we apparently revert to 1-on-1 offense, and when that stops working, we just start chucking threes. Right now, this team lacks both mental and physical toughness. An immensely talented group, but also incredibly soft, and unable to cope with pressure.

Sixthman
01-11-2014, 04:17 PM
Duke played reasonably hard, but made bad decisions, the coaches or the team failed to successfully implement necessary in-game changes, and, as we have been all season, we were the less physical team. This team, which has tremendous athleticism, has yet to figure out how to put that talent into effect on the court. I think we have also fallen into the trap of believing the hype that our offense is great. Our offense is particularly weak in several areas. First, we get very few transition opportunities, secondly, Parker routinely makes poor decisions as to what is a good shot, and lastly, Cook, who has shown great strides as a point guard, is, apparently by design, often not running the offense. We heard in the preseason that Hood and Parker would often have the ball in their hands, in effect running the offense. This approach has not, as of yet, paid off. One negative result, is that when it comes to making smart plays in key offensive possessions -- a situation in which Coach K's teams have ALWAYS excelled -- this team does not. It seems to me that is because often the person with the ball has a scorer's mentality instead of a play makers mentality. That might work with a team of NBA Allstars sharing the court. I don't see it working for this Duke team. One effect of this, which I'm not sure I understand, is that we are almost never in position to even try for an offensive rebound on these plays. Oh well, next play.

rocketeli
01-11-2014, 04:20 PM
One of the guys who worked for me a few years ago loved to tell this story:

Farmer Jones was a wheat farmer. Every year he planted wheat but unfortunately the wheat market had been poor for several years and he had to take out loans to cover his losses.
Finally, one year he goes to the bank and the loan officer says, “I’m sorry Famer Jones, but we can’t lend you any more money to plant wheat. It’s too big of a risk. But we can lend you some money to plant cotton instead.”
“Well, I guess, if that’s the only choice, I’ll give it a try.”
So Farmer Jones plants cotton and lo and behold he does very well and makes a bunch of money. So the next time he goes to the bank the loan officer is very chipper and says “So now that you planted cotton and it worked so well what are you going to do next year?”
“Well,” says Farmer Jones, “I did so well in cotton this year that I guess I can afford to plant wheat again!”

The point is, of course, that people like to do things they are familiar with and feel safe doing, even if those things aren’t the most productive things they could be doing.

Which is leading up to my point: I think that this has been a less than stellar season for the Duke coaching staff and some of this may be that they have a collection of talent that works best in a fashion that is outside of the coaches’ comfort zone. A fast-breaking, up and down the floor, deep team that can’t be bothered to play much defense and just outscores the other team? Take that mess to the Dean Dome! We’re going to play a trapping man-to-man, plodding half-court style if it loses us every game in the ACC!

I’ve seen this imagination failure in some of the posts on DBR—people who focus on wanting the team to play exceptional defense (because it’s the Duke way, I guess!) without stopping to ask what the point is. The point of playing is to win, and to do that you have to score more points than the other team. If the team is built for defense fine, otherwise you’re only worsening what they do well for little gain. I was hoping the coaching staff would be a bit more sophisticated/adventuresome.

I’m not the basketball expert the coaching staff is (and I do not mean that sarcastically) but for the life of me I cannot see what they must see in Josh Hairston. When he came on the court in the second half I said, “oh, great now Clemson’s going to go ahead” and lo it came to pass. I’m sure he is a great guy and works hard, it is simply that he is physically outclassed-he can’t get a rebound, can’t shoot, and despite what some posters have expressed he can’t play defense that well either-he may “know the system” but he can’t execute. (He does draw an occasional charge, but that does not outweigh the other factors.)

Clearly, other teams have been watching lots of tape and have figured out how to slow down Jabari and our current offense isn’t helping any.

I wonder if we are missing a certain coach who left to go to Northwestern more than we though we would?

I also wonder if Coach K’s brother’s illness and passing are also having an effect—I certainly wouldn’t blame anyone if they were. I know from personal experience how draining going through that is for family.

Maybe now that we aren’t in the “Top 10” and thrashing everybody by 20 points we will see who the true fans are. If we continue to struggle we will see who is a fair weather fan and who is with it for better or worse. We have the best coach in the country, so I’m going to have faith that he and his staff will continue to work to put the team in the position to improve and have success.

Bay Area Duke Fan
01-11-2014, 04:43 PM
As an extension of the above thoughts, I think our defense would benefit from better game management, including on offense. I'm not Cook's biggest fan, so I try to take that into consideration. But, I think Coach K should be doing more play-calling. Yes, we have talented offensive players, but Parker going 1-on-4, Hood not getting any assists with all his touches, and Cook holding the ball at the top of the arc just to launch his own shot do not comprise an offensive game plan that I would like to see. Add to that Sulaimon and Dawkins also looking for their own shots, and it may lead one to appreciate having Tyler and Josh on the *offensive* end, simply for the sake of ball movement!:D

Our weak defense has been an ongoing problem this season. But 22 points in the second half against Clemson indicates a problem with the offense.

rsvman
01-11-2014, 04:44 PM
I wish I had the answer, but I don't. It seems to me that this team lets off the gas really early when they get a lead. Just like the ND game, we got up by ten and then fizzled.

A little killer instinct would be nice.

CR9
01-11-2014, 04:50 PM
The most talented Duke team I've seen since the '01 squad and they'll lose a half dozen ACC games, maybe more. Incredible.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 04:56 PM
The most talented Duke team I've seen since the '01 squad and they'll lose a half dozen ACC games, maybe more. Incredible.

Why the most talented? 2004 had a ton of talent. Deng, Redick, Duhon, Ewing, Williams, Randolph. That team would eat this team for lunch.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 05:03 PM
I wish I had the answer, but I don't. It seems to me that this team lets off the gas really early when they get a lead. Just like the ND game, we got up by ten and then fizzled.

A little killer instinct would be nice.

Need to have a way to score more easily. Jump shots will not get it done. I would rather have Jabari take it to the basket rather than shoot jumpers. He is a streaky shooter. Other guys need to pass it well. End of game play is a big issue- that is mental.

CR9
01-11-2014, 05:03 PM
Why the most talented? 2004 had a ton of talent. Deng, Redick, Duhon, Ewing, Williams, Randolph. That team would eat this team for lunch.

I was debating between those 2 sides. Not a whole lot in it. '04 definitely has an intangibles advantage over the current side.

Furniture
01-11-2014, 05:09 PM
It seems that we have two standard plays.

1)walk it up the court pass around the perimeter and wait for the open shot.
2)walk it up the court pass around the perimeter and wait for an impossible opening and then drive.

I know nothing about basketball but to me its just too predictable..It must be easy to coach against.

Last year at least we could chuck it into Mason and Ryan or Seth would somehow find a way to sneakily drive in for a layup. Thats not even mentioning the three's.

Is this years team really better than last years? Seth must be a better player than most people think….

DBFAN
01-11-2014, 05:09 PM
Our weak defense has been an ongoing problem this season. But 22 points in the second half against Clemson indicates a problem with the offense.

I agree that we are struggling with offense. And as much as everyone hates to hear about officiating that is where I am going. The perception that the refs have of Parker is quite confusing. What seems to be the case is that he is 6'8 so a few bumps going to the rim shouldn't bother him. A player like McDaniels for Clemson who in my opinion is a great player, has a much smaller frame. When he was bumped in the slightest going to the rim, a foul was called. That gives a player a lot of confidence that he can go to the rim anytime he wants. For Parker it becomes, well every time I go, they are hanging on me and I don't even get a foul shot for it. Thus Parker and the rest of the team start settling for the jump shot, ala the 2nd half.

With thy being said, the boys are gonna have to convince themselves that's it's them against the world, becoming victims will never help.

The one thing I have loved most about the Duke teams is their resolve not to start sparring with the refs, but today on sev occasions their emotions got the best of them. The officiating has been unpredictable at best so far this year, and I agreed that the times we got upset with the refs that it was deserving. Unfortunately we are hated by most every college basketball fan in the world, an in this Information Age we live in, the refs have become more and more skidish about blowing the whistle on our opponents in their gym. It's not fair, in fact it's down right absurd, but it's not gonna change, and they have to get around it

wsb3
01-11-2014, 05:14 PM
Duke played reasonably hard, but made bad decisions, the coaches or the team failed to successfully implement necessary in-game changes, and, as we have been all season, we were the less physical team. This team, which has tremendous athleticism, has yet to figure out how to put that talent into effect on the court. I think we have also fallen into the trap of believing the hype that our offense is great. Our offense is particularly weak in several areas. First, we get very few transition opportunities, secondly, Parker routinely makes poor decisions as to what is a good shot, and lastly, Cook, who has shown great strides as a point guard, is, apparently by design, often not running the offense. We heard in the preseason that Hood and Parker would often have the ball in their hands, in effect running the offense. This approach has not, as of yet, paid off. One negative result, is that when it comes to making smart plays in key offensive possessions -- a situation in which Coach K's teams have ALWAYS excelled -- this team does not. It seems to me that is because often the person with the ball has a scorer's mentality instead of a play makers mentality. That might work with a team of NBA Allstars sharing the court. I don't see it working for this Duke team. One effect of this, which I'm not sure I understand, is that we are almost never in position to even try for an offensive rebound on these plays. Oh well, next play.

That is a well written post. One thing I have learned is to give little heed to what is said in the off season. We are going to be deep. Someone we don't expect to be in the top rotation is going to be. yada yada

mkline09
01-11-2014, 05:19 PM
I am finding myself quickly running out of patience with this team, something I never use to do in the past. Even in years where there were some struggles I could make myself feel better by thinking about the experience the team was getting, especially the young guys who were taking their lumps. They'd get better, grow, meld, all that jazz if not by the end of that season certainly going into the next one. But in this day and age you almost can't be patience, because you have to see a team achieve all that it can as soon as possible because of the now yearly mass exodus of the best players.

This team is clearly missing something, and I'm not sure they, and or Krzyzewski will have it figured out by year's end. The sad thing is that this team, could potentially lose 5 of its regular rotation players and if that includes Parker/Hood you have lost your two best players and start the next year from scratch. Sure next year's class is awesome but you lose that experience as well as the talent and you can't just expect three, four,or five freshman to come in and be the answer every year *Kentucky *cough couch.

Hopefully they can figure it out but right now the team looks like a conglomerate of talent with no direction and no identity.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 05:21 PM
I was debating between those 2 sides. Not a whole lot in it. '04 definitely has an intangibles advantage over the current side.

Lot of tangibles as well. Williams and Randolph could protect the rim and rebound and Duhon was experienced running the point.

wsb3
01-11-2014, 05:29 PM
Anyone got a link to the press conference after the beat down?

richardjackson199
01-11-2014, 06:02 PM
I disagree with this except for the last line ;) I suspect that up-tempo and frenetic defense would further expose our defensive woes in positioning and communication.
--Maybe I should add that I am in the camp of a few posters here that the most pressing (haha) problem on defense is perimeter containment.
Anyway, my impression of today was that our defense really suffered from not being able to settle in. It appeared to me that our defense was at the mercy of our offense, contrary to Duke's historical mantra. Our hero ball allowed Clemson to push pace and drive directly to the basket, getting easy buckets and demoralizing us. If our perimeter can't contain an opponent, and our interior defensive positioning/communication is poor, I think aggressive defense is not in our best interest.

As an extension of the above thoughts, I think our defense would benefit from better game management, including on offense. I'm not Cook's biggest fan, so I try to take that into consideration. But, I think Coach K should be doing more play-calling. Yes, we have talented offensive players, but Parker going 1-on-4, Hood not getting any assists with all his touches, and Cook holding the ball at the top of the arc just to launch his own shot do not comprise an offensive game plan that I would like to see. Add to that Sulaimon and Dawkins also looking for their own shots, and it may lead one to appreciate having Tyler and Josh on the *offensive* end, simply for the sake of ball movement!:D

I agree with this post. The bad news is that today we lost handily again to a bad team. Coach K is not coaching anywhere close to the level of guys like Sean Miller this year. That is understandable given that his brother (who he was very close to) just passed away.
The good news is it's January, and there is plenty of time for this team to get better. Clearly they need to, and I'm sure they know that. Hero ball on offense is a recipe for losing. We have talent. If we don't know how to coach effective ball movement to create good, open shots (both inside and outside), then watch some game tape of what Vermont, Drury, and Notre Dame did to us. We have much more talent than those teams, so if we can play like a team on offense and assist to better shots our offense will be fine.

I also like the idea of playing faster. We were much more fun to watch against Kansas when we played faster, and we lost that game from the free throw line. Push the ball up the court and try to get more in transition. We have the studs and athletes to make that work.

I agree that having so many of our players playing out of their natural position is hurting us right now. Jabari is more of a natural 3. Amile is not a 5. Hood is not a 4. Our team's lack of depth inside with quality big men could do us in this year if Marshall isn't good enough to play and help us. Having Okafor next year will help, but I'd keep recruiting Myles Turner as well.

Better communication on defense, and playing with enough heart to want to win more than our opponent will help. Heart makes 5 guys go hard after those rebounds and loose balls. Coach K usually is masterful at instilling heart because he has so much. His heart has probably been hurting which sadly has lowered his ability to transmit his usual passion to the team.

I think we will be fine. Changes need to be made, and changes will be made. We have great players, good kids, and great coaches. Thus I expect to see improvement and am looking forward to seeing it. Go Duke!

And Go Panthers! - you can still make this a good weekend. :)

nyesq83
01-11-2014, 06:08 PM
(I hope) Maybe the team is suffering from a flu bug or something and that their stamina is affected by it.

I didn't watch today because I worked, but I expect the team to do better going forward.

freshmanjs
01-11-2014, 06:12 PM
(I hope) Maybe the team is suffering from a flu bug or something and that their stamina is affected by it.

I didn't watch today because I worked, but I expect the team to do better going forward.

lol. you can count on someone here to raise the sickness excuse every time we lose.

NashvilleDevil
01-11-2014, 06:20 PM
I'm reminded of a thread from 4 years ago. (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?19000-MBB-NC-State-88-Duke-74-Post-Game-Thread)

Furniture
01-11-2014, 06:25 PM
I'm reminded of a thread from 4 years ago. (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?19000-MBB-NC-State-88-Duke-74-Post-Game-Thread)

I was at this game…..We went from Chumps to Champs!
LOL!!

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 06:29 PM
I'm reminded of a thread from 4 years ago. (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?19000-MBB-NC-State-88-Duke-74-Post-Game-Thread)

Huh- I even said the same thing. We are not peaking early. The difference is that the 2010 team was much older and experienced- but the point is well taken.

Clay Feet POF
01-11-2014, 06:34 PM
I think our kids are doing everything we could ask of them. I'm tired of seeing 6'8 guys guarding seven footers when you have a perfectly serviceable seven footer on the bench.

K keeps doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

The coaching is the problem. I don’t pretend to have the answer, but it frustrating to see year after year less talented players driving for easy lay ups or drawing fouls. You can see how these type plays hypes the opposing team and igniting their momentum. Then our hapless defense lets it happen again. This is not a players problem, it been going on too it long. This is a coaching problem, and if the players are soft (Sure looks like it) that a coaching problem as well.

This problem will not be covered up when our 3’s are not falling. So why not just fix it

JPtheGame
01-11-2014, 06:41 PM
Get ready to play Michigan State in the first weekend. This is what an 8 seed looks like and the tourney committee loves to set up top notch coaches in that 8/9 v 1 seed games.

Oh, and we need to zone. Its the only way Plumlee can stay on the floor and we could go Plumlee, Parker and Jefferson across the back line.

jwillfan
01-11-2014, 06:45 PM
The coaching is the problem. I don’t pretend to have the answer, but it frustrating to see year after year less talented players driving for easy lay ups or drawing fouls. You can see how these type plays hypes the opposing team and igniting their momentum. Then our hapless defense lets it happen again. This is not a players problem, it been going on too it long. This is a coaching problem, and if the players are soft (Sure looks like it) that a coaching problem as well.

This problem will not be covered up when our 3’s are not falling. So why not just fix it

What I see is a team that isn't playing as a team. A head coach that cares more about his players following what they've been taught in practice, allowing them to fail, so they learn the lesson and developing them to play at their highest potential. One play stands out to me, in the second half - a Clemson player on a semi-fast-break drove the lane and one of our players sorta kinda got in front of them, no chance of a charge, and fell softly away from him. Foul called, basket good. It wasn't until later when they showed the replay that it was revealed that the defender was Sulaimon, about whom I wondered aloud regarding his whereabouts since he'd been on the bench for a good while...as soon as I saw that replay I knew - he was benched, until Thornton, who'd been playing tough as nails, fouled out. The other example was around the 9 minute mark and we started to fall behind and my wife wondered why K didn't take a TO. I could see that he wanted the players to figure it out - they've been given all the instruction they needed, it was up them to start playing as a TEAM. Finally around the 7 minute mark as we fell further behind and there was no stoppage of play around the 8' mark K called a TO.

There are going to be some very instructional video sessions in the next couple of days illustrating the gaps on both O and D that this team needs to close. Hoping the team takes these to heart, learns and improves from them. This team has too much talent to be playing like they are now, and they will improve.

Furniture
01-11-2014, 07:09 PM
What I see is a team that isn't playing as a team. A head coach that cares more about his players following what they've been taught in practice, allowing them to fail, so they learn the lesson and developing them to play at their highest potential. One play stands out to me, in the second half - a Clemson player on a semi-fast-break drove the lane and one of our players sorta kinda got in front of them, no chance of a charge, and fell softly away from him. Foul called, basket good. It wasn't until later when they showed the replay that it was revealed that the defender was Sulaimon, about whom I wondered aloud regarding his whereabouts since he'd been on the bench for a good while...as soon as I saw that replay I knew - he was benched, until Thornton, who'd been playing tough as nails, fouled out. The other example was around the 9 minute mark and we started to fall behind and my wife wondered why K didn't take a TO. I could see that he wanted the players to figure it out - they've been given all the instruction they needed, it was up them to start playing as a TEAM. Finally around the 7 minute mark as we fell further behind and there was no stoppage of play around the 8' mark K called a TO.

There are going to be some very instructional video sessions in the next couple of days illustrating the gaps on both O and D that this team needs to close. Hoping the team takes these to heart, learns and improves from them. This team has too much talent to be playing like they are now, and they will improve.


Sheed was benched early in the game and didn't play much in the first half. Did anyone see why?

oldnavy
01-11-2014, 07:13 PM
Clemson played really good D.

We played really bad D. (except for those few possessions we were in a zone).

Clemson rebounded really well.

We rebounded poorly.

Clemson got into the paint at will and scored. (except for those few possession we were in a zone).

We got into the paint and got stuffed, so we resorted to shooting from outside which we did poorly.

Our offense is stagnant. We pass the ball around the perimeter WAY too much which really doesn't stress the other team, so they rest while we are on offense. Our opponents are attacking us on offense getting to the lane way too often, which makes us work REALLY hard on the defensive end...

Coach K needs to come up with a different game plan for this group.... not sure what it will be, but perhaps addressing the above issues may be a good place to start.

Worst part of today is I got zero time to enjoy UNC's loss... like Roy says "that's not fair"!!


NOT GIVING UP... but it is hard to enjoy this season when you are not surprised by performances like we saw today.... yuck!

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 07:16 PM
Well if we didn't need any more anxiety- UVA crushed NC State in Raleigh. Another team that plays tough D and likes to go to the hoop. Oh boy. Blood pressure up already.

Chicago 1995
01-11-2014, 07:22 PM
What I see is a team that isn't playing as a team. A head coach that cares more about his players following what they've been taught in practice, allowing them to fail, so they learn the lesson and developing them to play at their highest potential. One play stands out to me, in the second half - a Clemson player on a semi-fast-break drove the lane and one of our players sorta kinda got in front of them, no chance of a charge, and fell softly away from him. Foul called, basket good. It wasn't until later when they showed the replay that it was revealed that the defender was Sulaimon, about whom I wondered aloud regarding his whereabouts since he'd been on the bench for a good while...as soon as I saw that replay I knew - he was benched, until Thornton, who'd been playing tough as nails, fouled out. The other example was around the 9 minute mark and we started to fall behind and my wife wondered why K didn't take a TO. I could see that he wanted the players to figure it out - they've been given all the instruction they needed, it was up them to start playing as a TEAM. Finally around the 7 minute mark as we fell further behind and there was no stoppage of play around the 8' mark K called a TO.

There are going to be some very instructional video sessions in the next couple of days illustrating the gaps on both O and D that this team needs to close. Hoping the team takes these to heart, learns and improves from them. This team has too much talent to be playing like they are now, and they will improve.

What you are saying is right and its something that K's done a lot over the years. The concern I (and many, it seems) have is that even if this team figures it out, the personnel doesn't fit the strategy our coach wants to employ. I think there's a lot of evidence at this point that even when the execution is better than it was today, we still aren't good defensively, and we still struggle offensively. There's more than simple growing pains and learning to play Duke Basketball that's a problem here. We've all seen teams run through that growth before. This is different, and is going to require not just the kids getting better, but K, I think, adapting to their strengths too. Ks going to have to compromise and step outside his tried, true and successful comfort zone with this team. We've not really done that yet, and we're kind of running in mud doing the same thing over and over and over expecting different results. This loss looked an awful lot like the other three. Lead, defense collapses, offense gets completely jumpshot focused. No stops on D, panicked jumpers on O, and a loss.

We're not getting better. Heck, on offense, we're getting worse.

Dukehky
01-11-2014, 07:32 PM
That was embarrassing. Parker doesn't get the ball in positions where he can be successful. Whether that's his fault or his teammates fault I don't know, probably a mixture of both. He needs the ball on the high post or on the wing inside the line. Quinn Cook is starting to become a ball hog. I know he wants to make a play, but bro, you are 5'11 (I know he's listed at 6'1, but he's not, stand next to him and tell me I'm wrong) and don't jump that high, drive and dish. There are so many other bad things I can point out about this game that are exactly what happen in our other bad games this year. At least we keep pressuring the ball, because that is clearly one of the best parts of our defensive scheme. Oh wait.

All this talent, and if we don't hit double digit 3's, we can't win a game. So reliant on the 3 pointer.

You know what problem we won't have if Marshall is in the game? Energy, hustle, and fight. He may not be skilled, able to hit a free throw, or make every defensive rotation, but he is going to fight like hell for his team. Nobody else on the team wants to do that. Even Thornton and Hairston looked pouty today.

All we do is isolation, and since nobody that isolates ever makes a good pass, they just collapse and the driver goes into 4 defenders in the lane. Rasheed, Jabari, Quinn, Dre since apparently he drives now, all do this.

I really have no thoughts on how to improve in our deficient areas. Today was bad. Joey Harris' eyes are probably all alight seeing those Duke jerseys when he's on offense.

Everybody ready to be unranked? Because I would bet that there is no number beside our name Monday night.

jwillfan
01-11-2014, 07:39 PM
What you are saying is right and its something that K's done a lot over the years. The concern I (and many, it seems) have is that even if this team figures it out, the personnel doesn't fit the strategy our coach wants to employ. I think there's a lot of evidence at this point that even when the execution is better than it was today, we still aren't good defensively, and we still struggle offensively. There's more than simple growing pains and learning to play Duke Basketball that's a problem here. We've all seen teams run through that growth before. This is different, and is going to require not just the kids getting better, but K, I think, adapting to their strengths too. Ks going to have to compromise and step outside his tried, true and successful comfort zone with this team. We've not really done that yet, and we're kind of running in mud doing the same thing over and over and over expecting different results. This loss looked an awful lot like the other three. Lead, defense collapses, offense gets completely jumpshot focused. No stops on D, panicked jumpers on O, and a loss.

We're not getting better. Heck, on offense, we're getting worse.

Right on. I have faith in K, he's the best leader there is. 2010 didn't gel until the Maryland game, and from there on the light bulb lit up for not just Zoubek but how they would play as a TEAM. The pieces are there for this team - yes, there are some weaknesses - but will they put them together? I for one will watch, rooting hard as I can, hoping they figure it out on the journey that is the season. If they don't, I won't pull for them any less.

_Gary
01-11-2014, 07:41 PM
What you are saying is right and its something that K's done a lot over the years. The concern I (and many, it seems) have is that even if this team figures it out, the personnel doesn't fit the strategy our coach wants to employ. I think there's a lot of evidence at this point that even when the execution is better than it was today, we still aren't good defensively, and we still struggle offensively. There's more than simple growing pains and learning to play Duke Basketball that's a problem here. We've all seen teams run through that growth before. This is different, and is going to require not just the kids getting better, but K, I think, adapting to their strengths too. Ks going to have to compromise and step outside his tried, true and successful comfort zone with this team. We've not really done that yet, and we're kind of running in mud doing the same thing over and over and over expecting different results. This loss looked an awful lot like the other three. Lead, defense collapses, offense gets completely jumpshot focused. No stops on D, panicked jumpers on O, and a loss.

We're not getting better. Heck, on offense, we're getting worse.

AMEN to this. I'm very hesitant, at this point, to believe this particular group of players is going to be able to execute the schemes we are used to seeing from Duke Basketball teams. I think Coach K is going to have to do some adjusting or we will simply play about .500 ball for the season. Personally I'd like to see just a couple of things. Firstly, as others have mentioned, I think this team is built to push the ball and we need to emphasize that more. Secondly, I'd like to see Marshall and Matt get some minutes, especially when our typical rotations aren't working well. Instead of so much Thorton today I thought it would have been a nice thing to see Matt get some burn early since Rasheed wasn't playing particularly well. And we've all argued back and forth about the pros and cons of Marshall so I won't belabor that point. But I think we desperately need his size on defense. I hate seeing our guys playing out of position, and having Jabari trying to guard the other team's brute center game in and game out isn't cutting it.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 07:42 PM
That was embarrassing. Parker doesn't get the ball in positions where he can be successful. Whether that's his fault or his teammates fault I don't know, probably a mixture of both. He needs the ball on the high post or on the wing inside the line. Quinn Cook is starting to become a ball hog. I know he wants to make a play, but bro, you are 5'11 (I know he's listed at 6'1, but he's not, stand next to him and tell me I'm wrong) and don't jump that high, drive and dish. There are so many other bad things I can point out about this game that are exactly what happen in our other bad games this year. At least we keep pressuring the ball, because that is clearly one of the best parts of our defensive scheme. Oh wait.

All this talent, and if we don't hit double digit 3's, we can't win a game. So reliant on the 3 pointer.

You know what problem we won't have if Marshall is in the game? Energy, hustle, and fight. He may not be skilled, able to hit a free throw, or make every defensive rotation, but he is going to fight like hell for his team. Nobody else on the team wants to do that. Even Thornton and Hairston looked pouty today.

All we do is isolation, and since nobody that isolates ever makes a good pass, they just collapse and the driver goes into 4 defenders in the lane. Rasheed, Jabari, Quinn, Dre since apparently he drives now, all do this.

I really have no thoughts on how to improve in our deficient areas. Today was bad. Joey Harris' eyes are probably all alight seeing those Duke jerseys when he's on offense.

Everybody ready to be unranked? Because I would bet that there is no number beside our name Monday night.

It is about getting better. Ranking is irrelevant. This team has bigger issues than ranking. But seasons can turn on a dime. Hopefully they find that dime fast.

vrob90
01-11-2014, 07:46 PM
Mercifully, the game wasn't televised for me. Maybe I'll feel differently in a few days, but I have to say tonight that watching these beatdowns is causing me to wonder if this season isn't simply a write off. Various comments are pointing out this or that deficiency accurately enough, but the fact is that these bad losses involved being defeated in virtually every aspect of the game. I'm not sure there's a remedy for so many things going wrong. It's doubly hard to understand, since a number of these players are obviously very, very talented.

jv001
01-11-2014, 07:46 PM
Right on. I have faith in K, he's the best leader there is. 2010 didn't gel until the Maryland game, and from there on the light bulb lit up for not just Zoubek but how they would play as a TEAM. The pieces are there for this team - yes, there are some weaknesses - but will they put them together? I for one will watch, rooting hard as I can, hoping they figure it out on the journey that is the season. If they don't, I won't pull for them any less.

This is what it will take to get our offense going. No ball hogging, no dribbling the air out of the ball just to run the clock down and say oh! I have to shoot it now even if it's a bad shot and lastly passing the ball to an open team mate. That's the easy part. Now comes the hard part, how do we fix the defense? I don't know if our guards and wings are just slow footed or don't take pride in staying in front of their man. If it's the latter, then we can fix that. But if it's just slow footed, then we're in trouble, because we are not going to a zone. I'm anxious to see what Coach K has up his sleeve for Virginia. GoDuke!

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 07:51 PM
Mercifully, the game wasn't televised for me. Maybe I'll feel differently in a few days, but I have to say tonight that watching these beatdowns is causing me to wonder if this season isn't simply a write off. Various comments are pointing out this or that deficiency accurately enough, but the fact is that these bad losses involved being defeated in virtually every aspect of the game. I'm not sure there's a remedy for so many things going wrong. It's doubly hard to understand, since a number of these players are obviously very, very talented.

Well to be fair- this was the worst loss. Loss to number 1 team and 2 point loss at ND. The Kansas game was close for a good chunk. So not sure you have watched a lot of beatdowns.

_Gary
01-11-2014, 07:59 PM
Well to be fair- this was the worst loss. Loss to number 1 team and 2 point loss at ND. The Kansas game was close for a good chunk. So not sure you have watched a lot of beatdowns.

Agreed. But we have been close to losing some others (lest we forget Vermont, in particular), and the same problems keep manifesting themselves over and over. In particular our offense stagnates at different points, and most disturbingly we get owned in the paint. This occurs both with opposing guard penetration, backdoors, and just simple dump down passes where their average centers come off looking like Shaq by abusing our interior defense. On the other end our "in the paint" offense seems to be non-existant at times.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 08:09 PM
Agreed. But we have been close to losing some others (lest we forget Vermont, in particular), and the same problems keep manifesting themselves over and over. In particular our offense stagnates at different points, and most disturbingly we get owned in the paint. This occurs both with opposing guard penetration, backdoors, and just simple dump down passes where their average centers come off looking like Shaq by abusing our interior defense. On the other end our "in the paint" offense seems to be non-existant at times.

For sure but these are not beatdowns. Good teams win close games. Bad teams do not. This is a team that can turn it around if they play better at the end of games. The paint offense is key. Have to get easy buckets when up. Did not do that today or against ND. This went from a 5 PT lead to a 10 PT deficit very fast.

vrob90
01-11-2014, 08:15 PM
Well to be fair- this was the worst loss. Loss to number 1 team and 2 point loss at ND. The Kansas game was close for a good chunk. So not sure you have watched a lot of beatdowns.

I didn''t say I'd watched a lot of beatdowns. It's early January. The last two losses, given our opponents, were beatdowns in my book.

_Gary
01-11-2014, 08:18 PM
For sure but these are not beatdowns. Good teams win close games. Bad teams do not. This is a team that can turn it around if they play better at the end of games. The paint offense is key. Have to get easy buckets when up. Did not do that today or against ND. This went from a 5 PT lead to a 10 PT deficit very fast.

Yep, on all points. I'm afraid the only way we'll consistently get "in the paint" points is if we speed up the tempo on offense. Quinn simply has demonstrated that he can consistently break down opposing guards and get into the paint. In fact I'd say that in a half-court set this is a weakness for him. I know Rodney can get into the paint, but our guards simply haven't shown me that ability to get by their man with a nasty crossover or simple quickness. Add that to the lack of a traditional low post, back to the basket type scorer, and it makes getting points in the paint very difficult. Not sure what the answer is other than trying to push the ball more.

weezie
01-11-2014, 08:42 PM
No MOTM thread?!

Have we all gone to bed to sulk?

FerryFor50
01-11-2014, 08:46 PM
I didn''t say I'd watched a lot of beatdowns. It's early January. The last two losses, given our opponents, were beatdowns in my book.

I don't think that word means what you think it means...

Dukehky
01-11-2014, 08:49 PM
Yep, on all points. I'm afraid the only way we'll consistently get "in the paint" points is if we speed up the tempo on offense. Quinn simply has demonstrated that he can consistently break down opposing guards and get into the paint. In fact I'd say that in a half-court set this is a weakness for him. I know Rodney can get into the paint, but our guards simply haven't shown me that ability to get by their man with a nasty crossover or simple quickness. Add that to the lack of a traditional low post, back to the basket type scorer, and it makes getting points in the paint very difficult. Not sure what the answer is other than trying to push the ball more.

Isolating Jabari or Rodney is a good idea, it's just where they get isolated that is the key issue. I think they need to catch the ball on elbow or free throw line extended closer to the basket. This gives both of them a more viable triple threat option. Shorter/quicker passes they can make because they're not 23 feet from the hoop, mid range jumpers, which are great weapons for both those players, and shorter quicker drives with less time for defensive help to come. They both settle too much for 3's when they are such matchup nightmares. When they take 3's, I'm sure the defense is relieved. They have to be committed to getting the ball closer to the hoop, and their teammates need to be committed to getting them the ball in those positions. I went into a whole thing in another thread about our entry passing, but to reiterate, our entry passing is the worst that I have ever seen for a Duke team. There are times when Jabari is open in the post, and the guards are unable, or refuse to give it to him.

Jabari and Rodney have shown very few signs of being distributors since the first few games of the season, which is troubling. But passing is not this team's strong suit at all, which contributes to all the ISO and apparently "selfish" play.

duke09hms
01-11-2014, 08:49 PM
I don't think that word means what you think it means...

haha with that usage, then we totally BEATDOWN butler 61-59 in the 2010 title game.

azzefkram
01-11-2014, 08:59 PM
That really stunk. A lot of work needs to be done. No need to call anyone out. A minor huzzah for Dre for his aggressiveness on the glass. Hopefully changes are on the horizon.

JPtheGame
01-11-2014, 09:02 PM
Singler freshman year played out of position and got beat on by true bigs all year until he could barely stand, much less shoot well, by the end of the year.
Parker?

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 09:04 PM
I didn''t say I'd watched a lot of beatdowns. It's early January. The last two losses, given our opponents, were beatdowns in my book.

To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen- I know beatdowns. Beatdowns are friends of mine. Sir, these are no beatdowns.

duke09hms
01-11-2014, 09:12 PM
Singler freshman year played out of position and got beat on by true bigs all year until he could barely stand, much less shoot well, by the end of the year.
Parker?

Sure we all observed Kyle tailing off toward the end of his freshman season. How do we know that it's because he got "beat on by true bigs" and not just the typical freshman wall?

I do think we need Marshall to take hold of the center position and get more game minutes there. Hopefully K can be a bit more flexible in his approach. Sure undersized skill beats unskilled size, but right now we are undersized and unskilled in post defense. Let's put in Marshall (unskilled size) and hope he gets better.

Besides, who does Marshall have to work on post defense against big strong post players in practice? Amile? No. Josh? Please. Rodney? No. Jabari? Mayybe. Game-time reps might be his best practice.

vrob90
01-11-2014, 09:23 PM
I don't think that word means what you think it means...

We can quibble as much as you like about how to characterize the bad losses, but the following account in Sports Illustrated isn't a matter of opinion:

“After opening the season ranked No. 4 in the Associated Press Poll, three games into conference play the Blue Devils are in danger of falling out of top-25 entirely. This is the first time since 1996 that Duke has opened the season 12-4.”

Whatever you want to call it, it’s not a plus, and that’s what I’m getting at. Maybe the answers will turn up in the next few weeks. I hope so.

devildeac
01-11-2014, 09:33 PM
All four ACC teams in NC lost today. Wonder when was the last time that occurred.

I just might change my screen name to *evil*eac for a while:o.

JPtheGame
01-11-2014, 09:34 PM
Sure we all observed Kyle tailing off toward the end of his freshman season. How do we know that it's because he got "beat on by true bigs" and not just the typical freshman wall?

I do think we need Marshall to take hold of the center position and get more game minutes there. Hopefully K can be a bit more flexible in his approach. Sure undersized skill beats unskilled size, but right now we are undersized and unskilled in post defense. Let's put in Marshall (unskilled size) and hope he gets better.

Besides, who does Marshall have to work on post defense against big strong post players in practice? Amile? No. Josh? Please. Rodney? No. Jabari? Mayybe. Game-time reps might be his best practice.

Im all for Getting Marshall on the floor. I've said it before but we could go from an undersized team unable to keep teams away from the rim to a team that goes 7'0, 6'9 (with crazy long arms), 6'8, and 6'8 (at the 2!). Throw in Quinn at point and nice compilation of specialty subs (TT -D, time at the point, Josh- spell amile and Plumlee, Andre -instant o, Rasheed - spell rodney, up the D) and you have a pretty formidable team that would actually have enviable size.

dukelifer
01-11-2014, 09:35 PM
We can quibble as much as you like about how to characterize the bad losses, but the following account in Sports Illustrated isn't a matter of opinion:

“After opening the season ranked No. 4 in the Associated Press Poll, three games into conference play the Blue Devils are in danger of falling out of top-25 entirely. This is the first time since 1996 that Duke has opened the season 12-4.”

Whatever you want to call it, it’s not a plus, and that’s what I’m getting at. Maybe the answers will turn up in the next few weeks. I hope so.
All programs have down years - sometimes a team will win a NC and then the next year not even make the NCAA with a roster full of McDonald All Americans. Youth and team inexperience can be very frustrating.

dcdrumsinc
01-11-2014, 09:38 PM
As long as Hood and Parker don't look to involve their teammates on offense, we are going to struggle against solid defenses.

Kinda hard, when half the time both are on the court, thornton and hairston, the offensive stiffs, are out there with them

devildeac
01-11-2014, 09:41 PM
I enjoyed the NC Symphony performing compositions by Elgar, Mozart and Beethoven tonight far more than the performance from SC today.

_Gary
01-11-2014, 10:12 PM
Im all for Getting Marshall on the floor. I've said it before but we could go from an undersized team unable to keep teams away from the rim to a team that goes 7'0, 6'9 (with crazy long arms), 6'8, and 6'8 (at the 2!). Throw in Quinn at point and nice compilation of specialty subs (TT -D, time at the point, Josh- spell amile and Plumlee, Andre -instant o, Rasheed - spell rodney, up the D) and you have a pretty formidable team that would actually have enviable size.

I know this is an oversimplication of what are many problems, and that what I'm about to suggest doesn't solve all the problems and could create different ones. Having said that, one thing that's driven me crazy with this year's team is the fact that we do seem to matchup as undersized more times than not this year. Our two PGs are smaller than average, our shooting guards are what I'd say are average at best, our forwards are good size as long as they aren't playing a position "above" them (like Jabari or Amile playing an opposing center). If we could find some time for Marshall that would allow the rest of our talent to play at their natural positions. I know it's not that simple, per se, but it is something I wish we could see. I'd love for both Rodney and Jabari to play the forward possessions and guard other forwards, not centers. It sure would help in rebounding and interior defense. But I'm guessing that's just not in the cards this year and that we'll be playing our guys out of their position all year long.

MPandolfi
01-11-2014, 10:24 PM
All four ACC teams in NC lost today. Wonder when was the last time that occurred.


The last time Duke, UNC and State lost on the same day was at the ACC quarterfinals in '96...so we can cross anything before that off the list.

hustleplays
01-11-2014, 11:38 PM
First, Thank you DBR Mods, who have allowed so many of us to express our disappointments and our criticisms. We care about Duke basketball for specific and noteworthy reasons [heart, playing as a team, tough defense, leadership, poise, communication, sound fundamentals, did I mention heart?], and this team is not living up to historic Duke basketball standards. Not talking about wins and losses here. All of us in our adult lives, when we underperform, we expect, receive and ought to accept constructive criticism. I am impressed with the quality of the critique, given the dismal performance of this team, and how much we care about Duke b-ball. Again, thank you Mods.

That was a dispiriting performance by our players and coaches, as so many of you have already noted. Not because we lost per se, but because how we did it, and not for the first time. So many of the reasons we respect, admire and love Duke basketball, and deeply appreciate everyone associated with this incredibly classy and successful program, are rather inexplicably being not achieved by this year's team. Again, not because of the losses but because we are seeing pretty ugly, sub-Duke, sub-quality basketball. Opponents driving to the rim, and our guys just backing off? Losing poise when game pressure mounts? Hero ball? Dumb fouls? Not matching the opponents' intensity? Being out coached? [see Mike Brey]

So, what is wrong? Many of you, thank you, have pointed out a myriad of technical issues. I know a little about basketball, while many of you know more than I, and I think that almost all relevant points have been raised.

What I do know a lot about is leadership and coaching leaders. In my non-Duke b-ball and DBR life, I have coached many top leaders in many fields for many years. All of my clients and coachees are quite to very successful, very to incredibly gifted and brilliant. All have a lot of confidence, else they would not have accomplished so much. Yet, surprise, none is perfect and all have weaknesses, blind spots and proclivities. In fact, I have observed over many years, that the most gifted usually have the most powerful weaknesses, blind spots and proclivities. The combination of great talent, success and confidence too often results in stubbornness and arrogance. The central coaching challenge I find myself facing is, How do I help these gifted leaders see that "what got you here won't get you there" [Marshall Goldsmith and others].

It is ALWAYS true that when I see a group, team, or organization of underperforming individuals, the root cause is a failure of their leadership to make the painful changes from what has worked in the past to what is required now and in the future. Jay Hall said that "Competence is the ability to do what needs to be done."

I don't know, of course, exactly what this team's leadership [coaches and team leaders], technically speaking, needs to do to fix what we we have seen repeatedly this year. But what is clear to the basketball loving eyeballs is that our team is significantly underperforming in numerous, obvious, fundamental ways. Yes, there may be some "method to the madness" but that does not explain violating fundamental principles of good basketball [not boxing out, putting the ball on the floor needlessly, going to hero ball when game pressure mounts, etc, etc, etc].

I love, respect and admire Coach K, for who he is and for what he has done on and off the court. I always will, no matter how this particular team performs. But I love, respect and admire him -- and his colleagues -- and the marvelous program they have created over the years -- enough to ask, with immense respect, please, open yourselves up to new approaches. Bring in some trusted colleagues. Are your bench coaches fully able to express what they see is happening and how things can be fixed? Trust your bench more. Take some risks. Be fully honest and courageous about why this team is underperforming. Move out of your comfort zone. Thank you. Go Duke! [Jon S, can you run the point for us for a while? :-) ]

hillsborodevil
01-12-2014, 05:54 AM
Folks, Little John's (LJ's) has always been a tough place to play. There have been some great Duke teams that have lost there. LJ's is probably the 2nd toughest place to play behind Cameron - excluding irrational MD fans.

No need to panic just yet - but yes, I'm on the MP3 band wagon for several reasons.

I got up early this morning hoping to find Mr. Sumner's take. Please hurry back!!!!!!

mcdukie
01-12-2014, 06:20 AM
I think that this team is not that good right now but they are still getting every teams best shot because they are Duke. Notre Dame hadn't played that well before or after playing us and I predict the same for Clemson. UVA will be fired up for us and still see us as a win they need to get to the tournament.

eddiehaskell
01-12-2014, 06:45 AM
Because he's playing out of position (guarding opponents bigs) and being asked to shoulder the load on offense too...I believe anyone that has ever played basketball (even just pick up games) will tell you that guarding someone bigger in the post can be physically draining. If the person is a little taller/heavier, you always have to extend father/jump higher to match their length and use more muscle strength to move or support their weight. I'm not sure if this is happening to Jabari or what...

Matches
01-12-2014, 06:59 AM
I believe anyone that has ever played basketball (even just pick up games) will tell you that guarding someone bigger in the post can be physically draining. If the person is a little taller/heavier, you always have to extend father/jump higher to match their length and use more muscle strength to move or support their weight. I'm not sure if this is happening to Jabari or what...

How much time does Jabari actually spend guarding guys who are significantly bigger than him? By "significant" I mean 2-3 inches and 15+ pounds. Jabari's not a little dude. Amile played 27 minutes against Clemson and Hairston played 8 - that leaves 5 minutes of Jabari at the 5?

I recognize that Jabari is not defending well in the post or otherwise, but I think the idea that he's being worn down physically is a myth. He's just not playing the 5 all that much, and he's quite large enough to defend the 4. I don't think size is his problem.

Wander
01-12-2014, 07:05 AM
Don't make this more complicated than it is, the problem isn't toughness or any aspect of our offense, including post offense. Clemson actually has the #1 field goal percentage defense in the country. It's that our defense still sucks. That's all.

dyedwab
01-12-2014, 07:20 AM
Don't make this more complicated than it is, the problem isn't toughness or any aspect of our offense, including post offense. Clemson actually has the #1 field goal percentage defense in the country. It's that our defense still sucks. That's all.

True about Clemson and their defense, but for the some of the same reasons our defense sucks, our offense falls apart to often. Lack of team play, bad decision-making, and most importantly, a lack of communication and awareness of what other teammates are doing.

And, no matter how good Clemson's defense is, our offense should be a helluva lot better then in was even against them.

At this point I don't think we have an isolated strategic or tactical problem. We have a larger systemic problem with the way the team plays that effects both offense and defense.

arnie
01-12-2014, 07:27 AM
I think that this team is not that good right now but they are still getting every teams best shot because they are Duke. Notre Dame hadn't played that well before or after playing us and I predict the same for Clemson. UVA will be fired up for us and still see us as a win they need to get to the tournament.

But, can't we also get fired up for UVA and still see them as a win we need to get to the tournament?

Furniture
01-12-2014, 07:27 AM
I do think that the teams problems are bigger than TT and JH and I do like both of them and I think they have a role but I wonder how much of JH's time is spent on court without TT.
UVA will be really fired up now. They must be smelling blood so it will be a very good game to win and a tough one...

dukelifer
01-12-2014, 08:27 AM
I do think that the teams problems are bigger than TT and JH and I do like both of them and I think they have a role but I wonder how much of JH's time is spent on court without TT.
UVA will be really fired up now. They must be smelling blood so it will be a very good game to win and a tough one...

If Duke wins - it could be a turning point. If they lose - it could be trouble. Young teams can start to lose confidence fast. Someone needs to step up in a big way.

Troublemaker
01-12-2014, 08:34 AM
How much time does Jabari actually spend guarding guys who are significantly bigger than him? By "significant" I mean 2-3 inches and 15+ pounds. Jabari's not a little dude. Amile played 27 minutes against Clemson and Hairston played 8 - that leaves 5 minutes of Jabari at the 5?

Unfortunately, against Clemson, Jabari did spend almost all his time guarding the 5 (Nnoko). It was a strange decision because I feel Amile has shown himself to be much better guarding the post. In fact, on the few occasions where Amile got a chance on Nnoko, he did a good job defending and boxing him out. For me, Amile guarding 5s this season started out as a way to save Jabari's legs, but now it's just become the better tactic since he's much better than Jabari at it. I don't think we'll see Jabari guarding 5s as his primary assignment going forward. It's going to be back to the previous status quo. Nnoko's bossing around of Jabari in the post on rebounds and back-to-basket scoring (along with Jabari's usual mistakes defending screens, which I think is even more numerous) helped fuel Clemson to take control of the game.

77devil
01-12-2014, 08:37 AM
Don't make this more complicated than it is, the problem isn't toughness or any aspect of our offense, including post offense. Clemson actually has the #1 field goal percentage defense in the country. It's that our defense still sucks. That's all.

While I agree that defense is the more significant issue for this team, the second half demonstrates that the offense has some work to do as well. There was way too much standing around, a lack of ball movement, a lot of one on one dribbling, and forced shots. Is this how the team will continue to react when facing adversity on the road? We didn't light it up against ND either.

I'm not one who believes that the high offensive efficiency to date against a relatively weak schedule is indicative of how this team will perform during the grueling conference season. As others have noted, Coach K and the staff have much work to do, but I believe it's at both ends of the floor. Fortunately, the best coach in basketball is one the job.

Troublemaker
01-12-2014, 08:39 AM
Anyone got a link to the press conference after the beat down?

Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTGh0gYQxuk

Part Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cu7OMHqLIg

Billy Dat
01-12-2014, 08:48 AM
The team is certainly going the wrong way. Kind of like two years ago, they are a much more offensively-interested team that counts on outscoring opponents. When the offense is stalling, the defense suffers. Lately, the offense has lacked any semblance of continuity and cohesion.

I agree that this is a time to look to K for guidance. He's got a young and talented team, he's dealing with a huge personal loss that took him away from the team for big chunks of the semester break - a time for practice and tweaking, and I am sure he is freaked out by what he's seeing. I mean, Marshall didn't even get his 2 first half minutes last night.

Speaking of which, not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, I thought we looked pretty good in the first half, on the road, we could/should have been up 10 at the break, we were getting good shots, but I guess we were living and dying by the 3 a bit.

All we can do is sit back and watch what happens. I remember K saying he was legit nervous last year when Kelly went out that we'd tailspin and miss the Big Dance. I am sure he's feeling that way now. As long as we hold serve at home and get a road win soon, I'll feel ok.

CBecker
01-12-2014, 08:51 AM
How much time does Jabari actually spend guarding guys who are significantly bigger than him? By "significant" I mean 2-3 inches and 15+ pounds. Jabari's not a little dude. Amile played 27 minutes against Clemson and Hairston played 8 - that leaves 5 minutes of Jabari at the 5?

I recognize that Jabari is not defending well in the post or otherwise, but I think the idea that he's being worn down physically is a myth. He's just not playing the 5 all that much, and he's quite large enough to defend the 4. I don't think size is his problem.

To be honest, I think Jabari is best served guarding the 4. As stated, he's a big, strong guy. He has very poor lateral quickness and appears have to bad awareness as well, so I shudder to think about him guarding some quick, slashing 3 man. I hope Plumlee is back on the court next game.

Watched Arizona play the other day, boy do they execute beautiful team offense. Wish we had half that chemistry tbh. Not pretty to watch on either end right now.

Virginia should be an interesting opponent. They have some size and are starting to play well.

60's Devil
01-12-2014, 08:58 AM
A tough loss and hard to take. Equally hard to take is all the wishful thinking bred by losing. If MP3 were the answer don't we think the greatest coach ever would be playing him?

Clay Feet POF
01-12-2014, 10:07 AM
Part One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTGh0gYQxuk

Part Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cu7OMHqLIg

Thanks for the links.

Nothing new here, but I was reassured by his control and it seem his body language was saying hurry let me out of here I got work to do.

ArnieMc
01-12-2014, 10:27 AM
I think one factor we're missing is the change in the coaching staff. Maybe we need to get Chris Collins back or let Wojo go back to coaching the bigs. Not only is this a much different team from last year, but also a different coaching staff.

porkpa
01-12-2014, 10:40 AM
Will we even be in the top 25 this week?

uh_no
01-12-2014, 10:44 AM
Will we even be in the top 25 this week?

we certainly don't deserve it, that's for sure.

dukelifer
01-12-2014, 10:53 AM
I think one factor we're missing is the change in the coaching staff. Maybe we need to get Chris Collins back or let Wojo go back to coaching the bigs. Not only is this a much different team from last year, but also a different coaching staff.

Pretty sure it has more to losing three seniors who accounted for the bulk of the scoring and rebounding than losing a coach. If we only had Mason Plumlee or Ryan Kelly- this would be a different team.

clinresga
01-12-2014, 11:00 AM
I'm reminded of a thread from 4 years ago. (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?19000-MBB-NC-State-88-Duke-74-Post-Game-Thread)

Presume the link was to reassure us that the fabled '10 team went through its own dry spell. But, reading back through the old thread again, I noted this post:

Before the NC State game, kenpom had us at #1 in the country on offense and #9 on defense. After last night, that dropped to #1 and #18. I imagine that's an unusually big drop for one game.

Well, as of today, kpom has us ranked #2 in AdjO, comparable to the '10 team. But on AdjD, we're at 96. We should be so lucky as to have "fallen" to #18 like we did back in '10. I'm as dumbstruck as the rest of us today. And while I'd like to see him more, I don't think MP3 is this year's Zoubek salvation. Just gonna sit back and trust the coaching staff to have more insights than I do--though I agree that the changes this year may be a factor--and just stay loyal.

vick
01-12-2014, 11:01 AM
we certainly don't deserve it, that's for sure.

Sagarin 19, Pomeroy 22 doesn't scream "certainly" not a top-25 team to me.

CDu
01-12-2014, 11:06 AM
I know this is an oversimplication of what are many problems, and that what I'm about to suggest doesn't solve all the problems and could create different ones. Having said that, one thing that's driven me crazy with this year's team is the fact that we do seem to matchup as undersized more times than not this year. Our two PGs are smaller than average, our shooting guards are what I'd say are average at best, our forwards are good size as long as they aren't playing a position "above" them (like Jabari or Amile playing an opposing center). If we could find some time for Marshall that would allow the rest of our talent to play at their natural positions. I know it's not that simple, per se, but it is something I wish we could see. I'd love for both Rodney and Jabari to play the forward possessions and guard other forwards, not centers. It sure would help in rebounding and interior defense. But I'm guessing that's just not in the cards this year and that we'll be playing our guys out of their position all year long.

The strangest thing is Coach K's repeated references to this being a small team and a team that doesn't have a center. Well, it is certainly true that we are [i]playing[/] a small team, but it is not true that we are a small team.

At the beginning of the year, we had guys 7'0", 6'8"-6'9", 6'8"-6'9", 6'8"-6'9", 6'8", 6'7", and 6'7". There was a LOT of talk about how this year we would eliminate the undersized SF problem with Hood, Murphy, and perhaps Ojeleye taking those minutes. But the coaches quickly chose to again go small, with Hood seeing a ton of time at PF and Sulaimon and Dawkins seeing extensive action at SF. That shift resulted in one of our tallest guys deciding to transfer.

It has just been an odd season, and Coach K has made some odd comments in along the way.

Right now we are a bad defensive team on the perimeter, a bad defensive team in the post, and we don't play a team capable of erasing mistakes on the perimeter with interior shotblocking. This season has made me further appreciate how great the Landlord was. A guy like him inside would go a long way toward mitigating our weaknesses on the perimeter. Not that I think Plumlee is remotely near that caliber. But right now it is clear that nobody else is either.

Something big has to change. Whether it be going bigger, pulling back off the pressure defense to a sagging defense, trying zone, whatever, something different needs to happen. And for the sake of our tourney seeding and overall tourney chances, it needs to happen soon.

uh_no
01-12-2014, 11:16 AM
Sagarin 19, Pomeroy 22 doesn't scream "certainly" not a top-25 team to me.

polls != statistical rankings.....

polls are largely based on win/loss performance....we're 0-2 against the current AP25....with 2 losses other losses, a near loss to a terrible vermont team

we're 3 of 7 in games against the top 100......let me repeat that.....against the top 100 teams in the country, we've lost MORE than half of the time....and we all know that probably 3 of thoses losses were not to world beaters....and in reality, only the ND game was close in the end....

so tell me, what have we done to deserve being ranked among the top 25 teams in the country? we can't beat any of them...we can't beat team consistently in the top 50, or top 100

so maybe we'll be ranked, maybe we won't....i can't say how the voters will vote....i'm just saying IMO they haven't earned the ranking and if they hadn't been ranked so highly preseason, they wouldn't be ranked on monday.

i think it will be borderline....the voters simply see that duke is not playing well, and almost seems to be in freefall....my prediction? 22 or 23

Saratoga2
01-12-2014, 11:28 AM
There are numerous excuses for this team that don't seem to agree with the facts. Some of these are:

1. We are a young team!. I'll buy that we don't have a lot of experience playing together against high level competition but as far as experience we have,
Cook -experienced Jr
Thornton - experienced Sr
Hairston - experienced Sr
Dawkins - Experienced 5th year student (4 years of play)
Hood - Jr (2 years of play and an extra year of practice)
Sauliman- Soph
Plumlee - In program for two years (not much PT)
Jefferson -Soph
Parker Fr
Jones - Fr
Olijeye - Fr.

This team is probably closer to average in age and PT, so I can't see the young attribute as being that honest.

2. We always get everybody's best shot. Come on, this is Div I basketball where you should expect to get teams playing hard in all games.

3. Some of the players must be ill. Again, sounds like we are making excuses as we are no more sick or injured than other teams.

4. The referees are treating us fairly. I seriously doubt the referees get together and decide to shortchange Duke.

5. Loss of a coach and loss of coach K's brother. I understand these are blows, but our poor play in the Vermont game came in advance of these issues.

Those on the board who have indicated that we are playing team ball, particularly on defense, that we have players are small for the positions they are being asked to play, and that the defensive and offensive strategy could use some tweaking make the most sense to me. If Marshall can't make a difference, we seem doomed to have a subpar season since we have no other available big man to toughen up our inside.

Clay Feet POF
01-12-2014, 11:31 AM
Will we even be in the top 25 this week?

To try to put a positive spin pin this loss, maybe it will become a turning point to the season. It certainly has the attention of most posters on this board. (Check out how many infrequent members are now posting). I would think the coaches and players have received a huge wake up call. Hopefully like the Georgetown game in 2010 when the president attended. Time will tell!

Eakane
01-12-2014, 11:35 AM
Like most of you, I penciled in both the ND and Clemson games as Duke W's. These are inferior teams with more flaws than we have.

But I forgot the single central axiom of ACC hoops. It is hard to win on the road in the ACC. We certainly don't have a monopoly on that, but nor are we immune.

We were in a position to win both games, but we didn't close. Closing is 90& mental (the other 10% is making free throws).

So I wouldn't expect any abrupt changes in style of play or the lineup. I would hope that everyone in the program would take a good long look at himself and ask, "Am I doing everything in my power to help us win? Am I exerting 100% effort?"

We have the talent, we have the depth, we have the Coach. The other penciled in W's will come.

throatybeard
01-12-2014, 11:38 AM
At times like this, a voice of reason (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4m-lNi61Rk).

Indoor66
01-12-2014, 11:41 AM
There are numerous excuses for this team that don't seem to agree with the facts. Some of these are:

1. We are a young team!. I'll buy that we don't have a lot of experience playing together against high level competition but as far as experience we have,
Cook -experienced Jr
Thornton - experienced Sr
Hairston - experienced Sr
Dawkins - Experienced 5th year student (4 years of play)
Hood - Jr (2 years of play and an extra year of practice)
Sauliman- Soph
Plumlee - In program for two years (not much PT)
Jefferson -Soph
Parker Fr
Jones - Fr
Olijeye - Fr.

This team is probably closer to average in age and PT, so I can't see the young attribute as being that honest.

2. We always get everybody's best shot. Come on, this is Div I basketball where you should expect to get teams playing hard in all games.

3. Some of the players must be ill. Again, sounds like we are making excuses as we are no more sick or injured than other teams.

4. The referees are treating us fairly. I seriously doubt the referees get together and decide to shortchange Duke.

5. Loss of a coach and loss of coach K's brother. I understand these are blows, but our poor play in the Vermont game came in advance of these issues.

Those on the board who have indicated that we are playing team ball, particularly on defense, that we have players are small for the positions they are being asked to play, and that the defensive and offensive strategy could use some tweaking make the most sense to me. If Marshall can't make a difference, we seem doomed to have a subpar season since we have no other available big man to toughen up our inside.

RE your #1 - I think Hood transferred after his freshman year and is now a redshirt sophomore.

_Gary
01-12-2014, 12:11 PM
The strangest thing is Coach K's repeated references to this being a small team and a team that doesn't have a center. Well, it is certainly true that we are [i]playing[/] a small team, but it is not true that we are a small team.

At the beginning of the year, we had guys 7'0", 6'8"-6'9", 6'8"-6'9", 6'8"-6'9", 6'8", 6'7", and 6'7". There was a LOT of talk about how this year we would eliminate the undersized SF problem with Hood, Murphy, and perhaps Ojeleye taking those minutes. But the coaches quickly chose to again go small, with Hood seeing a ton of time at PF and Sulaimon and Dawkins seeing extensive action at SF. That shift resulted in one of our tallest guys deciding to transfer.

It has just been an odd season, and Coach K has made some odd comments in along the way.

Right now we are a bad defensive team on the perimeter, a bad defensive team in the post, and we don't play a team capable of erasing mistakes on the perimeter with interior shotblocking. This season has made me further appreciate how great the Landlord was. A guy like him inside would go a long way toward mitigating our weaknesses on the perimeter. Not that I think Plumlee is remotely near that caliber. But right now it is clear that nobody else is either.

Something big has to change. Whether it be going bigger, pulling back off the pressure defense to a sagging defense, trying zone, whatever, something different needs to happen. And for the sake of our tourney seeding and overall tourney chances, it needs to happen soon.

Excellent analysis of the situation. I concur that we've gone from looking like we'd have plenty of size to being undersized in many games.

Troublemaker
01-12-2014, 12:29 PM
Other thoughts:


This was a very disappointing loss, a confidence-shaking loss. Clemson wasn't feeling good about themselves and only had one day of rest and preparation after getting throttled at home by FSU. It's a very advantageous situation for their next opponent to be in, especially since Duke had 3 days to prepare. Unfortunately, our lack of rebounding and defense in this game supplied Clemson with more and more confidence as the game progressed (and deteriorated our own) and by the end, we had no chance. It appears the defensive gains we made from Alabama through Elon were either illusory or have been lost in the face of hostile environments in South Bend and now Clemson.
Coach K has always shaken things up after especially bad performances, ranging from fleeting changes (like starting Patrick Davidson) to more permanent changes (like moving Jon Scheyer to PG). The particular adjusments he makes may or may not be what we in the peanut gallery want, but the idea that he doesn't make them is false. Just this season, Coach K started Thornton and Hairston after the Vermont performance.
I would not expect the next game to be some sort of breakout (in terms of minutes or performance) for Marshall Plumlee. His lack of PT against Clemon was surprising. For the first time in 9 games, Marshall did not even receive first-half minutes and it appears, for the Clemson game at least, he has fallen behind Semi in the pecking order. It was Marshall who sat next to the walk-ons on the bench, and it was Semi who came into the game for the last minute of mop-up duty. Hopefully for Marshall, this was performance-related and not injury-related. (He did dress so I'm assuming performance.)
Jabari's biggest enemy is the screen right now. He just doesn't play them properly, and there's even an awareness issue. You just have to look at Clemson's first points in each half to see this. Clemson's first play of the game was a down screen set by Nnoko on Sheed to free up Roper for an open three. Jabari completely doesn't recognize what's happening and doesn't pop out to contest the shooter. Fine, a good set play by Clemson to begin the game, not totally inexcusable. But Clemson's first score in the second half? Nnoko comes out to set a ball screen on Quinn and Jabari is a second late to recognize what's happening and isn't in position to hedge, leading to a layup by Rod Hall, which gets him going. This one really isn't excusable, imo. Even when he IS aware of ball screens, he often makes mistakes hedging, switching, etc. If Jabari could just play ball screens correctly, it would make a huge difference to Duke's defensive efficiency, imo. I would be surprised if the coaches haven't bandied about moving him to the wing defensively (i.e. guarding the 3) to at least try to have him less involved with defending ball screens (from the position of a hedger). The problem is maybe he's not good defending wings as well and obviously the huge ripple effects elsewhere in the lineup that has to take place for that to happen.

Troublemaker
01-12-2014, 12:46 PM
A couple more thoughts:
KJ McDaniels in appearance resembles a 6'6" Sean Dockery
I say this with no sarcasm. Welcome to all the new posters. I hope you guys stick around and post after wins and when things are going well, too.

DevilYouthCoach
01-12-2014, 12:47 PM
Excellent analysis of the situation. I concur that we've gone from looking like we'd have plenty of size to being undersized in many games.


So far, I have not been impressed with any of our "bigs" as bigs. Some have few offensive skills. Some have few defensive skills. Clearly Jabari Parker is playing more out of position than any Duke player in recent memory. I sense that Coach K is hoping to coach him up to a good level, but he has failed all the real tests thus far. But more than that problem, it seems to me, is the question of toughness and the traditional Duke style of intense, passionate defense -- our guys right now just don't get it and I don't really understand why. I am guessing that there has not been enough teaching by example. Maybe this loss to Clemson will wake them up?

Somehow, our guys have got to understand that every game in this league is a real battle, and that only by matching (and surpassing) the intensity and the toughness of the opponent will we have a prayer of winning. We have plenty of basketball skills, but we are truly lacking mental toughness and physical toughness.

I am hoping that Coach K and the rest of the staff (come on, Coach Wojo!) can teach them, challenge them, even shame them and/or make them play harder and meaner. That's the only way the Singler teams won all those games.

The loss of Coach K's brother, in my own opinion, has been a complicating factor as well. It's been my observation that men often take on the spirit of recently deceased loved ones for a time, and I sense that in Coach K right now. His brother was a kind-hearted, dedicated soul; not an in-your-face competitive [expletive deleted]. It'll be fascinating to see what transpires.

Cameron
01-12-2014, 12:49 PM
The strangest thing is Coach K's repeated references to this being a small team and a team that doesn't have a center. Well, it is certainly true that we are [i]playing[/] a small team, but it is not true that we are a small team.

Strange is putting it gently. With the expectation of sounding redundant, anyone care to theorize a plausible explanation as to why Coach K has wholly refused to give Marshall Plumlee a chance? One that doesn't involve, "We don't see what's in practice," please.

Here's the thing. We do see what happens during games. And, in the rarest of moments that Marshall has been thrown to the wolves this season, he's not only played with great vigor, igniting his fellow teammates with unbridled energy and fire, he's also made some pretty nice plays. Against Elon, despite registering only about 15 minutes, Marshall had 4 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal and 1 block. In 11 minutes versus Eastern Michigan, he had 2 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. In both games, Marshall committed just one combined turnover and demonstrated an almost Brian Zoubek-like understanding of offensive rebounds and how a big man can turn them into efficient second-chance scoring opportunities on the perimeter.

Marshall just needs consistent playing time to officially acclimate himself to this level of competition. Playing 15 minutes one game, 4 the next and 0 after that is not the recipe for acclimation. Considering our well-documented deficiencies in the interior and consequently on the glass, Coach K's continued and total disregard of his only 7-footer on the bench is reaching the point of preposterousness. It's possible that Coach K has simply mistaken Marshall for a chair, but how many chairs are seven feet tall? A throne, I guess, but then why would we have a throne on our sideline.

The more obvious explanation is that Coach K is, with regard to this team, being held back by his own successes and seemingly unwilling to admit failure. As other posters have alluded, Coach K's pedigree is so great that it's only natural for him, as it would be for any coach of his success, to believe in his system to a fault. Just because Coach K believes so strongly in his approach, however, it doesn't mean it's impinging on this team any less.

NashvilleDevil
01-12-2014, 01:05 PM
Presume the link was to reassure us that the fabled '10 team went through its own dry spell. But, reading back through the old thread again, I noted this post:

Before the NC State game, kenpom had us at #1 in the country on offense and #9 on defense. After last night, that dropped to #1 and #18. I imagine that's an unusually big drop for one game.

Well, as of today, kpom has us ranked #2 in AdjO, comparable to the '10 team. But on AdjD, we're at 96. We should be so lucky as to have "fallen" to #18 like we did back in '10. I'm as dumbstruck as the rest of us today. And while I'd like to see him more, I don't think MP3 is this year's Zoubek salvation. Just gonna sit back and trust the coaching staff to have more insights than I do--though I agree that the changes this year may be a factor--and just stay loyal.

Not saying it's going to turn out like 2010, but when that team lost to State the way they did no one expected what the team would end up doing. This team can still do that, the pieces are there and I think Coach K knows he's going to have to make some changes. Like Cruise says in A Few Good Men when the defense starts presenting their case, "this trial starts Monday." (Tuesday for Duke fans and not Dawson and Downey fans)

dukelifer
01-12-2014, 01:13 PM
Strange is putting it gently. With the expectation of sounding redundant, anyone care to theorize a plausible explanation as to why Coach K has wholly refused to give Marshall Plumlee a chance? One that doesn't involve, "We don't see what's in practice," please.

Here's the thing. We do see what happens during games. And, in the rarest of moments that Marshall has been thrown to the wolves this season, he's not only played with great vigor, igniting his fellow teammates with unbridled energy and fire, he's also made some pretty nice plays. Against Elon, despite registering only about 15 minutes, Marshall had 4 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal and 1 block. In 11 minutes versus Eastern Michigan, he had 2 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. In both games, Marshall committed just one combined turnover and demonstrated an almost Brian Zoubek-like understanding of offensive rebounds and how a big man can turn them into efficient second-chance scoring opportunities on the perimeter.

Marshall just needs consistent playing time to officially acclimate himself to this level of competition. Playing 15 minutes one game, 4 the next and 0 after that is not the recipe for acclimation. Considering our well-documented deficiencies in the interior and consequently on the glass, Coach K's continued and total disregard of his only 7-footer on the bench is reaching the point of preposterousness. It's possible that Coach K has simply mistaken Marshall for a chair, but how many chairs are seven feet tall? A throne, I guess, but then why would we have a throne on our sideline.

The more obvious explanation is that Coach K is, with regard to this team, being held back by his own successes and seemingly unwilling to admit failure. As other posters have alluded, Coach K's pedigree is so great that it's only natural for him, as it would be for any coach of his success, to believe in his system to a fault. Just because Coach K believes so strongly in his approach, however, it doesn't mean it's impinging on this team any less.

Marshall has not shown himself to be a defensive stopper - but length is length. I am not sure how long he would last in the post (in terms of not fouling) but he should be able to give a decent stretch. That said- he has calmed down and has played better in games than even Z did as a junior. It is probably worth a shot- if only to see what Chemistry it generates. K mentioned that he has no power players. One wonders is Semi could be that guy. Time to start experimenting.

vick
01-12-2014, 01:23 PM
Marshall has not shown himself to be a defensive stopper - but length is length. I am not sure how long he would last in the post (in terms of not fouling) but he should be able to give a decent stretch. That said- he has calmed down and has played better in games than even Z did as a junior. It is probably worth a shot- if only to see what Chemistry it generates. K mentioned that he has no power players. One wonders is Semi could be that guy. Time to start experimenting.

Junior-year Zoubek was a VASTLY better player than anything Plumlee has shown this year. 119.4 ORtg on 18% usage vs. 95.6 and 15% usage is a titanic difference on offense, and Zoubek was also a MUCH better on the defensive glass (19.3% vs. 8.4%), and probably a better team defender. I think people often forget how good a player Zoubek was before his mid-senior-year "leap"--he had horrible fouling tendencies which kept him off the floor (along with injuries), but he was much, much better than MP3 to date.

Furniture
01-12-2014, 01:26 PM
Strange is putting it gently. With the expectation of sounding redundant, anyone care to theorize a plausible explanation as to why Coach K has wholly refused to give Marshall Plumlee a chance? One that doesn't involve, "We don't see what's in practice," please.

Here's the thing. We do see what happens during games. And, in the rarest of moments that Marshall has been thrown to the wolves this season, he's not only played with great vigor, igniting his fellow teammates with unbridled energy and fire, he's also made some pretty nice plays. Against Elon, despite registering only about 15 minutes, Marshall had 4 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal and 1 block. In 11 minutes versus Eastern Michigan, he had 2 points, 2 rebounds and 2 assists. In both games, Marshall committed just one combined turnover and demonstrated an almost Brian Zoubek-like understanding of offensive rebounds and how a big man can turn them into efficient second-chance scoring opportunities on the perimeter.

Marshall just needs consistent playing time to officially acclimate himself to this level of competition. Playing 15 minutes one game, 4 the next and 0 after that is not the recipe for acclimation. Considering our well-documented deficiencies in the interior and consequently on the glass, Coach K's continued and total disregard of his only 7-footer on the bench is reaching the point of preposterousness. It's possible that Coach K has simply mistaken Marshall for a chair, but how many chairs are seven feet tall? A throne, I guess, but then why would we have a throne on our sideline.

The more obvious explanation is that Coach K is, with regard to this team, being held back by his own successes and seemingly unwilling to admit failure. As other posters have alluded, Coach K's pedigree is so great that it's only natural for him, as it would be for any coach of his success, to believe in his system to a fault. Just because Coach K believes so strongly in his approach, however, it doesn't mean it's impinging on this team any less.

It's also not like the rest of the team are not making mistakes (even TT). I can't understand why Marshall isn't shown some forgiveness.

CALVET
01-12-2014, 01:32 PM
The more obvious explanation is that Coach K is, with regard to this team, being held back by his own successes and seemingly unwilling to admit failure. As other posters have alluded, Coach K's pedigree is so great that it's only natural for him, as it would be for any coach of his success, to believe in his system to a fault. Just because Coach K believes so strongly in his approach, however, it doesn't mean it's impinging on this team any less.


If K has a coaching fault here, I believe it is loyalty to two athletically limited seniors who have hung with the program and have shown great character over four years. If those minutes are given to Matt and Marshall, then everyone shifts to a more natural position and a small team becomes much bigger and better defensively on the perimeter as well as the post. Singler was the last small forward at Duke defending out of position at center but he didn't have to shoulder near the scoring load that year that Jabari has to this season. MP3 would undoubtedly make a lot of mistakes but would be much better by tournament time while continuing down the current path seems to be wearing down Parker, Hood, and Dawkins (those guarding out of position) more with each passing game. But then again what do I know?......K's loyalty is a credit to his character which, in turn, is a recruiting tool for high character kids.

DukieInBrasil
01-12-2014, 01:34 PM
Other thoughts:


This was a very disappointing loss, a confidence-shaking loss. Clemson wasn't feeling good about themselves and only had one day of rest and preparation after getting throttled at home by FSU. It's a very advantageous situation for their next opponent to be in, especially since Duke had 3 days to prepare. Unfortunately, our lack of rebounding and defense in this game supplied Clemson with more and more confidence as the game progressed (and deteriorated our own) and by the end, we had no chance. It appears the defensive gains we made from Alabama through Elon were either illusory or have been lost in the face of hostile environments in South Bend and now Clemson.
Coach K has always shaken things up after especially bad performances, ranging from fleeting changes (like starting Patrick Davidson) to more permanent changes (like moving Jon Scheyer to PG). The particular adjusments he makes may or may not be what we in the peanut gallery want, but the idea that he doesn't make them is false. Just this season, Coach K started Thornton and Hairston after the Vermont performance.
I would not expect the next game to be some sort of breakout (in terms of minutes or performance) for Marshall Plumlee. His lack of PT against Clemon was surprising. For the first time in 9 games, Marshall did not even receive first-half minutes and it appears, for the Clemson game at least, he has fallen behind Semi in the pecking order. It was Marshall who sat next to the walk-ons on the bench, and it was Semi who came into the game for the last minute of mop-up duty. Hopefully for Marshall, this was performance-related and not injury-related. (He did dress so I'm assuming performance.)
Jabari's biggest enemy is the screen right now. He just doesn't play them properly, and there's even an awareness issue. You just have to look at Clemson's first points in each half to see this. Clemson's first play of the game was a down screen set by Nnoko on Sheed to free up Roper for an open three. Jabari completely doesn't recognize what's happening and doesn't pop out to contest the shooter. Fine, a good set play by Clemson to begin the game, not totally inexcusable. But Clemson's first score in the second half? Nnoko comes out to set a ball screen on Quinn and Jabari is a second late to recognize what's happening and isn't in position to hedge, leading to a layup by Rod Hall, which gets him going. This one really isn't excusable, imo. Even when he IS aware of ball screens, he often makes mistakes hedging, switching, etc. If Jabari could just play ball screens correctly, it would make a huge difference to Duke's defensive efficiency, imo. I would be surprised if the coaches haven't bandied about moving him to the wing defensively (i.e. guarding the 3) to at least try to have him less involved with defending ball screens (from the position of a hedger). The problem is maybe he's not good defending wings as well and obviously the huge ripple effects elsewhere in the lineup that has to take place for that to happen.


Jabari's post defense is atrocious. Nnoko went after him time and again and scored. If for no other reason, MP3 needs to play simply so that Jabari doesn't have to defend the 5. He is undersized as a defender in the post and is not good enough as a defender to make up for his lack of size. It appears to also severely negatively affect his offense. K is being stubborn wrt this and the results are not pretty.
Even with the losses to teams that it seems Duke should beat, we've had the lead late in the 2nd half. To me this indicates that Duke's problems are mental and strategic. We've got good enough players, that just have to put in the right situations to succeed, and right now that is not happening.

I think Sulaimon is gonna move back to the bench and TT will start again. Rasheed did not have a good game. I think Amile should continue to start at C, and MP3 should get some minutes here and there, maybe 10 or so total, so that Jabari or Hairston plays the 5 for about 5 minutes. Obviously MP3 isn't getting anywhere close to 10mpg currently, so i wouldn't count on that happening, but it should.

dukelifer
01-12-2014, 01:39 PM
Junior-year Zoubek was a VASTLY better player than anything Plumlee has shown this year. 119.4 ORtg on 18% usage vs. 95.6 and 15% usage is a titanic difference on offense, and Zoubek was also a MUCH better on the defensive glass (19.3% vs. 8.4%), and probably a better team defender. I think people often forget how good a player Zoubek was before his mid-senior-year "leap"--he had horrible fouling tendencies which kept him off the floor (along with injuries), but he was much, much better than MP3 to date.

Memory is a funny thing. I looked at his games and he did not play well or much at the end of the year. Perhaps that is what I remembered. He was much better in the beginning as you note.

_Gary
01-12-2014, 02:11 PM
If K has a coaching fault here, I believe it is loyalty to two athletically limited seniors who have hung with the program and have shown great character over four years. If those minutes are given to Matt and Marshall, then everyone shifts to a more natural position and a small team becomes much bigger and better defensively on the perimeter as well as the post. Singler was the last small forward at Duke defending out of position at center but he didn't have to shoulder near the scoring load that year that Jabari has to this season. MP3 would undoubtedly make a lot of mistakes but would be much better by tournament time while continuing down the current path seems to be wearing down Parker, Hood, and Dawkins (those guarding out of position) more with each passing game. But then again what do I know?......K's loyalty is a credit to his character which, in turn, is a recruiting tool for high character kids.

I think it's half and half. What I mean by that is that a part of the issue is what you say - loyalty to seniors that have stuck it out in the program and been good soldiers all along (to use a metaphor befitting Coach K). But the other part is that TT and JH do realistically understand K's system, especially defensively, better than the underclassmen. Now, that's not to say they are more athletic than the underclassmen, because they clearly aren't. But Coach is obviously comfortable with them and since he honestly does view basketball, to a great extent, like being in a military battle it's no surprise he wants guys in the trenches with him that he feels he knows best and can trust to make the fewest mistakes. That's what I think he sees in Tyler and Josh. But I'm with you. I'd like to see Marshall and Matt get some of the minutes those guys are getting.

Along that same line, I thought a big mistake against Clemson, what with most of our regulars not shooting the three well in the 2nd half, was to leave Tyler in for the extended minutes he got. Matt should have gotten a little run earlier in that 2nd half to see if: 1) he could have helped with the penetration of the Clemson guards, and 2) see if he could hit a few outside shots. That was just a huge tactical error on the coaching staff's part in that game, imho. Tyler simply wasn't going to give us what we needed to fend off Clemson on Saturday, imho.

gofurman
01-12-2014, 03:32 PM
For the sake of the children - someone this team learn to REBOUND ! Clemson 48 boards, Duke 30. Just UGLY - like you aint got no alibi ugly. Noone on Dukes team had 8 rebounds. THREE guys on Clemson had 10or more boards - 6'6" guys too like KJ McDaniels - see he is 6'6" and yet is tough !!!!!!!!!!! LIke ol' Greg Buckner he gets it done. Just be tough. Then to allow Blossongame - a slender 6'7" guy to get 14 freakin rebounds.. and then for unpolished, barely known Landry Nnooko to get 13 boards?

For the love of humanity. I was there in person. Clemson beat Duke inside like a step-child. THree guys with double doubles. THREE. We made Clemson look like world beaters. Sorry, I don't usually post like this but I was mad. It was a beat-down ol' school in the paint as for the "tough-type" plays. Duke broke down the Clemson Guards and got open shots but eventually the rebound numbers and all caught up w us. THey outrebounded us by 18. Blocked 7 shots. They were tougher.

DukieInBrasil
01-12-2014, 03:41 PM
For the sake of the children - someone this team learn to REBOUND ! Clemson 48 boards, Duke 30. Just UGLY - like you aint got no alibi ugly. Noone on Dukes team had 8 rebounds. THREE guys on Clemson had 10or more boards - 6'6" guys too like KJ McDaniels - see he is 6'6" and yet is tough !!!!!!!!!!! LIke ol' Greg Buckner he gets it done. Just be tough. Then to allow Blossongame - a slender 6'7" guy to get 14 freakin rebounds.. and then for unpolished, barely known Landry Nnooko to get 13 boards?

For the love of humanity. I was there in person. Clemson beat Duke inside like a step-child. THree guys with double doubles. THREE. We made Clemson look like world beaters. Sorry, I don't usually post like this but I was mad. It was a beat-down ol' school in the paint as for the "tough-type" plays. Duke broke down the Clemson Guards and got open shots but eventually the rebound numbers and all caught up w us. THey outrebounded us by 18. Blocked 7 shots. They were tougher.

and smarter. several of those 7 blocks came on just ridiculously dumb drives into the paint with multiple defenders on them or in the area. great chance to pass to an open shooter but instead went with hero ball and got their junk tossed. Parker, Cook and Sulaimon all did this at least once.

wsb3
01-12-2014, 04:27 PM
Love Coach K and he is a great coach and like every great coach I can think of he is stubborn. Bobby Knight, come on more than stubborn. Dean Smith stubborn. Many years ago I read an article about Jordan's final college game. I watched that game and UNC should have blown them away. Steve Alford was a freshman and allowed to run free and I think he scored 27. The article alluded to how Dean insisted on trapping because he was certain it would work. His assistant coaches tried to talk him out of it and play man and let their athletic talent take over. He refused and maybe his best team ever lost. Oh the next game Virginia post Sampson era beats Indiana and goes to the final four with an unlikely crew. Simple adjustment they did not let Alford run free.

Roy is stubborn but until he can win a championship without superior talent I can't link him to great.

The point being is often we have people when we question Coach K the remark is he knows more basketball than I do so I trust him. Of course he does. But he is also stubborn and at times over the years that stubbornness has cost his team. He does fall in love with certain players. I am sure there have been years when the season was over that when he reflected he did not think he did his best coaching job. Just as their have been years when he pushed all the right buttons. 2001 Post Boozer injury might be the best coaching I have seen.

Disclaimer (no I do not think I know more than Coach K. Love him and will be forever grateful for all that he has given.)

DBFAN
01-12-2014, 04:28 PM
Marshall has not shown himself to be a defensive stopper - but length is length. I am not sure how long he would last in the post (in terms of not fouling) but he should be able to give a decent stretch. That said- he has calmed down and has played better in games than even Z did as a junior. It is probably worth a shot- if only to see what Chemistry it generates. K mentioned that he has no power players. One wonders is Semi could be that guy. Time to start experimenting.

I love this Idea of using Semi as well. Nobody else has really talked about that option. He may not be 7 feet, but he can jump out or the gym.. If I had to chose between Marshall and Semi in a jump ball, I would pick Semi 100 times out of 100 times. He has also shown the ability to hit jump shots, and of he played center a little bit, would force their big man out, which would open the driving lanes. I also like the idea of mixing Semi and Marshall

g-money
01-12-2014, 05:47 PM
To me the Clemson loss is worrisome because we had so many different things go wrong that there is not likely to be a single fix. Our defense was bad, our rebounding was bad, and our offense got bogged down and reverted to ugly hero ball in the last 10 minutes. How do you fix all that? I don't think a simple lineup change will do the trick; after all, Coach K has already been using a deeper bench than in years past.

We know the talent and athleticism is there with this team. But one of the things that occurs to me this year is that our team's two senior leaders are not among the five most talented players, and our two best players are in their first year in the program*. Could it be that this unusual (for Duke at least) combination is leading to a lack of accountability and trust on the court - which could then be underlying cause of our other problems?

If true, this issue would be somewhat reminiscent of our 2011-12 vintage, although technically I don't think we currently have a single player as ball-dominant as Austin was. How Coach K addresses this - which for him, is likely an unusual situation as well, and may take some adaptation of his traditional views of leadership - could well be the biggest factor in determining the outcome of our season. From the players' side, the better guys like Rodney and Quinn** are able to provide leadership - meaning praising others for the good things, but also holding themselves and others accountable for the bad - the better Duke will be.

* Yes, I realize Rodney was a redshirt last year. But hey, I'm on a roll!
** I singled these guys out because quite frankly I don't think Jabari's ready to be a team leader yet, but to my eye Rodney is - and Quinn is the PG.

dukelifer
01-12-2014, 06:39 PM
To me the Clemson loss is worrisome because we had so many different things go wrong that there is not likely to be a single fix. Our defense was bad, our rebounding was bad, and our offense got bogged down and reverted to ugly hero ball in the last 10 minutes. How do you fix all that? I don't think a simple lineup change will do the trick; after all, Coach K has already been using a deeper bench than in years past.

We know the talent and athleticism is there with this team. But one of the things that occurs to me this year is that our team's two senior leaders are not among the five most talented players, and our two best players are in their first year in the program*. Could it be that this unusual (for Duke at least) combination is leading to a lack of accountability and trust on the court - which could then be underlying cause of our other problems?

If true, this issue would be somewhat reminiscent of our 2011-12 vintage, although technically I don't think we currently have a single player as ball-dominant as Austin was. How Coach K addresses this - which for him, is likely an unusual situation as well, and may take some adaptation of his traditional views of leadership - could well be the biggest factor in determining the outcome of our season. From the players' side, the better guys like Rodney and Quinn** are able to provide leadership - meaning praising others for the good things, but also holding themselves and others accountable for the bad - the better Duke will be.

* Yes, I realize Rodney was a redshirt last year. But hey, I'm on a roll!
** I singled these guys out because quite frankly I don't think Jabari's ready to be a team leader yet, but to my eye Rodney is - and Quinn is the PG.
It is actually two classes with little leadership depth/experience. This is a huge issue. It comes down to Quinn and Andre as the most talented upperclassmen. Good but not ideal - particularly since Andre did not play last year. This is unusual for a Duke team and probably explains a lot. UNC is suffering the same problem.

Edouble
01-13-2014, 12:20 AM
Love Coach K and he is a great coach and like every great coach I can think of he is stubborn. Bobby Knight, come on more than stubborn. Dean Smith stubborn. Many years ago I read an article about Jordan's final college game. I watched that game and UNC should have blown them away. Steve Alford was a freshman and allowed to run free and I think he scored 27. The article alluded to how Dean insisted on trapping because he was certain it would work. His assistant coaches tried to talk him out of it and play man and let their athletic talent take over. He refused and maybe his best team ever lost. Oh the next game Virginia post Sampson era beats Indiana and goes to the final four with an unlikely crew. Simple adjustment they did not let Alford run free.

Roy is stubborn but until he can win a championship without superior talent I can't link him to great.

The point being is often we have people when we question Coach K the remark is he knows more basketball than I do so I trust him. Of course he does. But he is also stubborn and at times over the years that stubbornness has cost his team. He does fall in love with certain players. I am sure there have been years when the season was over that when he reflected he did not think he did his best coaching job. Just as their have been years when he pushed all the right buttons. 2001 Post Boozer injury might be the best coaching I have seen.

Disclaimer (no I do not think I know more than Coach K. Love him and will be forever grateful for all that he has given.)

He has been known to be stubborn.

He has also tanked a few in his time to get his team's attention. One would be foolish to ignore the big picture after this loss. This is a team loaded with talent. We play for March.

Go Devils!!!

porkpa
01-13-2014, 02:19 AM
If we keep playing like we've been, we might not make it to March. Right now this team isn't improving. Its regressing.

sagegrouse
01-13-2014, 08:50 AM
For those of you who want lineup changes, do you wonder, as Featherston noted, why we have led at halftime in all four games we lost. I wonder whether it is lack of the right people in the game or the intrusion of other negatives like conditioning, mental focus, nerves ("noives," in homage to the 3 Stooges), confidence, or physical weakness leading to erosion of intensity over the course of the game.

This team stayed strong against UCLA and Michigan but didn't on the road against Our Lady and Clemson or against Arizona or Kansas.

IMHO (where the H is silent) we need the players already on the court to play tougher and better. And, I think, this is a learning process only partially affected by coaching. We did lose over one-half of our minutes and points. Leaving out Josh and Tyler as defensive specialists, we have Cook as the only upperclass offensive force on the team. Moreover, Rasheed, one of our sophs, has had a rough go this season. Furthermore, Hood, another second-year player is playing his first season on a nationally competitive team, where the spotlight and pressure never cease. If you doubt the latter, look at the contrast between the atmosphere in Littlejohn and the play by Clemson against FSU and against Duke.

jv001
01-13-2014, 09:08 AM
Sometimes it seems no one wants to do the dirty work of playing defense, blocking out and getting back on defense. It looks like some of the players can't wait to get back on offense and score THEIR points. We look like a selfish team right now and from Coach K's press conference, I believe he's aware of it. GoDuke!

daveyro
01-13-2014, 09:23 AM
On our great teams there seemed to be a player who stepped up and controlled tempo and plays at end of game situations or mid-game dysfunction. Often but not always PG's. Wojo, mature Hurley, Schier, Battier, Laettner, Spanarkle, Billy King, J. Williams. People will certainly disagree with my sample list but i think the point stands - - on this team no one on-court senses the game in a way that leads us out of dysfucntion. By way of analogy, in the second UNLV game, when their PG Greg Anthony fouled out, the team did not know what to do and mangeld their final possessions. Other non Duke examples: Steve Alford, Croft, Steve Alford Phil Ford, Isiah etc, I like Cooke, but I don't see him organizing things on the court and there is only so much the bench can do. When people start free-lancing, while K and Wojo can tell them to stop during timeouts but I feel we still need an on-court leader to make them stop free-lancing.

Kfanarmy
01-13-2014, 11:15 AM
He has been known to be stubborn.

He has also tanked a few in his time to get his team's attention. One would be foolish to ignore the big picture after this loss. This is a team loaded with talent. We play for March.

Go Devils!!! Honestly, I think one can argue effectively that Duke has foregone playing some very talented but undeveloped players during the year while chasing high tournament seeds, which resulted in a Duke team carrying a known weakness into the tournament and being ousted early by a lower seed that was using a longer bench. I can't really think of a time in the past two decades when the big picture wasn't about seeding. Please elaborate. If you really think Coach K tanked a game to get a team's attention, cite an example. Winning generally doesn't indicate you need to get the teams attention....

I am more and more of the mind that the staff is simply being stubborn about MP3. We've said he's not ready and we aren't about to let him prove otherwise! I know if I'm MP3 my attitude slowly begins to change.

Could it be that the bigger problem is that there's no one left on the staff that knows how to coach what needs to be done on the interior? Everything needs work: defensive positioning, interior passing, mid-range jump shots, shot blocking, team offense...When was the last time that it actually looked like there was something organized happening inside the three point line?

Perhaps this game was all about toughness, but it seems other teams with less talent are much more organized in their offensive and defensive sets. IDK, I guess we'll see where this team goes over the month.

Matches
01-13-2014, 11:36 AM
If you really think Coach K tanked a game to get a team's attention, cite an example. Winning generally doesn't indicate you need to get the teams attention....



"Tanked" is perhaps the wrong word, but there have been any number of times over the years when I've felt K embraced the idea of a teaching loss. The St. Johns game in 2011 comes to mind - not that K didn't try to win that game, but when we got behind and the players weren't responding to what he was telling them - eventually he just folded his arms and watched it unfold.


I am more and more of the mind that the staff is simply being stubborn about MP3. We've said he's not ready and we aren't about to let him prove otherwise! I know if I'm MP3 my attitude slowly begins to change.


I can't fathom what possible motivation K would have to think like this. Stubborn-ness is one thing, but what you're describing is almost pathological.

Any of us on this board can second-guess K's decisions or think his evaluations of players are wrong, but intentionally holding a player back just to avoid admitting the guy was any good? Y'all really think he's THAT stubborn?

Kfanarmy
01-13-2014, 12:35 PM
"Tanked" is perhaps the wrong word, but there have been any number of times over the years when I've felt K embraced the idea of a teaching loss. The St. Johns game in 2011 comes to mind - not that K didn't try to win that game, but when we got behind and the players weren't responding to what he was telling them - eventually he just folded his arms and watched it unfold.



I can't fathom what possible motivation K would have to think like this. Stubborn-ness is one thing, but what you're describing is almost pathological.

Any of us on this board can second-guess K's decisions or think his evaluations of players are wrong, but intentionally holding a player back just to avoid admitting the guy was any good? Y'all really think he's THAT stubborn?

Letting the team work it out. Yep we've seen that.

On the second point, No. I don't think it is a conscious thought, that would be pathological. It is subconscious. Most people don't want to be proven wrong, even sometimes when being proven wrong might be the best thing for them. It is oft at the heart of being "stubborn."

superdave
01-13-2014, 12:52 PM
"Tanked" is perhaps the wrong word, but there have been any number of times over the years when I've felt K embraced the idea of a teaching loss. The St. Johns game in 2011 comes to mind - not that K didn't try to win that game, but when we got behind and the players weren't responding to what he was telling them - eventually he just folded his arms and watched it unfold.

I can't fathom what possible motivation K would have to think like this. Stubborn-ness is one thing, but what you're describing is almost pathological.

Any of us on this board can second-guess K's decisions or think his evaluations of players are wrong, but intentionally holding a player back just to avoid admitting the guy was any good? Y'all really think he's THAT stubborn?


I think a good explanation of Coach K the past week (as you identify) is that he's taught the guys how to box out, rotate, hedge etc and they are not doing it. At some point you have to sit back and let guys realize that if they do not play defense the right way, they will lose. Dropping a few games might be the best way for that process to move forward. Losing has a way of getting kids' attention while winning tends to cover up mistakes. I'd rather lose to Clemson today if it results in the right lessons being learned so we dont lose in the 2nd round in March.

hillsborodevil
01-13-2014, 12:57 PM
For those of you who want lineup changes, do you wonder, as Featherston noted, why we have led at halftime in all four games we lost. I wonder whether it is lack of the right people in the game or the intrusion of other negatives like conditioning, mental focus, nerves ("noives," in homage to the 3 Stooges), confidence, or physical weakness leading to erosion of intensity over the course of the game.

This team stayed strong against UCLA and Michigan but didn't on the road against Our Lady and Clemson or against Arizona or Kansas.

IMHO (where the H is silent) we need the players already on the court to play tougher and better. And, I think, this is a learning process only partially affected by coaching. We did lose over one-half of our minutes and points. Leaving out Josh and Tyler as defensive specialists, we have Cook as the only upperclass offensive force on the team. Moreover, Rasheed, one of our sophs, has had a rough go this season. Furthermore, Hood, another second-year player is playing his first season on a nationally competitive team, where the spotlight and pressure never cease. If you doubt the latter, look at the contrast between the atmosphere in Littlejohn and the play by Clemson against FSU and against Duke.

I didn't read the Featherston article but you can add coaching adjustments at halftime to the above. With Coach K and staff I believe this isn't true. However, if this was any other ACC team we would all be pointing towards the staff.

Kedsy
01-13-2014, 01:07 PM
I thought a big mistake against Clemson, what with most of our regulars not shooting the three well in the 2nd half, was to leave Tyler in for the extended minutes he got. Matt should have gotten a little run earlier in that 2nd half to see if: 1) he could have helped with the penetration of the Clemson guards, and 2) see if he could hit a few outside shots. That was just a huge tactical error on the coaching staff's part in that game, imho. Tyler simply wasn't going to give us what we needed to fend off Clemson on Saturday, imho.

For the season, Tyler's eFG% is 61.2% and Matt's is 32.2%, or if you're only interested in 3-point shooting percentage, Tyler's is a robust 47.6% while Matt's is a paltry 14.3%. I know Matt came in with a shooter's reputation, but that hasn't translated into college success yet. If you want to see someone hit a few outside shots, right now Tyler is a MUCH better bet than Matt. Matt's D has been pretty good this season, and I can see someone saying he'd like to see more minutes for Matt (although personally I wouldn't agree with that), but to say not playing Matt more was a "huge tactical error" doesn't make any sense to me, especially if the main reason is we needed some shooting.

greybeard
01-13-2014, 01:18 PM
At least several people have said that they see MP playing with less ease of movement this year. Stress fractures are indicative that how one habitually carries oneself and moves causes undue stress on the place of a fracture. Or, if one makes an adjustment, sometimes a form fitting shoe that throws the weight differently, the new way might simply cause another point of undue stress. Examples, Paulus, Zoubek. and Pocius. I'm not saying that he has changed the way he moved, that he is somehow off form, or that his play has been anything but effective when on the court, except for his complete inability to make a free throw which is a big "except."

Parker's game is not economical, a fair number of his baskets are scores off of plays that possibly tax, he's played an awful lot of minutes, especially for a freshman, he asked to do so much, and perhaps does more than he needs to. He might have hit a wall of sorts, a lot of physical, mental, and emotional energy and pressure.

Similarly, Cook seems to be playing way too many minutes given the number of important things he is asked to do, including to be a or the principal option late in the clock.

As an aside, straight up man-to-man comprises wide variations that belie the term: where the help comes from, whether screens are switched in what parts of the court and on or between which players, and what rotations are used to provide help, and guard high picks and rolls. I am reasonably certain that there are others. How many of these are taken out of play, or are likely to work better than others because of personnel, who knows.

It is early in the season, and as has been pointed out, outcomes have been all over the place to an unusual degree all over the place. Crazy.

Duke is a great team to watch, it has an amazing basketball tradition of which near all of you are attached by having attended. There is choice.

Kfanarmy
01-13-2014, 01:25 PM
I didn't read the Featherston article but you can add coaching adjustments at halftime to the above. With Coach K and staff I believe this isn't true. However, if this was any other ACC team we would all be pointing towards the staff.

Generally, I think the teams who've beat Duke so far this year have increased the focus and intensity on getting to the interior on offense in the second half, where they've either garnered a bunch of free throws (AZ and KS) or hit their shots (ND and Clemson).

On D oponents in the second half have put greater focus on the three point line, encouraging Duke to dribble penetrate and let Duke go one-on-two or three as their defense sags to the paint.

To date, when Duke attempts to get to the interior against decent defenses, they've tried to do it with one person penetrating with the ball. No one is moving inside in concert with the guy penetrating with the intent to recieve a pass and get a lay up or mid-range shot...making it a bit easier to defend when someone isn't having an above-average shooting night.

Frankly in a couple of cases, the bad guys have just come with more intensity and will to score inside.

SupaDave
01-13-2014, 03:31 PM
Sometimes it seems no one wants to do the dirty work of playing defense, blocking out and getting back on defense. It looks like some of the players can't wait to get back on offense and score THEIR points. We look like a selfish team right now and from Coach K's press conference, I believe he's aware of it. GoDuke!

This may have hit something. This team has no Dave McClure - someone who helped us mask lots of weaknesses in the past. Amile is our closest thing to it but he's just not strong enough yet.

Come to think of it, this team is starting to remind me a lot of those DeMarcus Nelson lead teams - with Hood playing the role of Markie.

_Gary
01-13-2014, 04:20 PM
For the season, Tyler's eFG% is 61.2% and Matt's is 32.2%, or if you're only interested in 3-point shooting percentage, Tyler's is a robust 47.6% while Matt's is a paltry 14.3%. I know Matt came in with a shooter's reputation, but that hasn't translated into college success yet. If you want to see someone hit a few outside shots, right now Tyler is a MUCH better bet than Matt. Matt's D has been pretty good this season, and I can see someone saying he'd like to see more minutes for Matt (although personally I wouldn't agree with that), but to say not playing Matt more was a "huge tactical error" doesn't make any sense to me, especially if the main reason is we needed some shooting.

I think you missed my point. Yes, I know full well that Tyler's stats on the offensive end are better than Matt's. But considering that neither Tyler nor anyone else wearing Duke blue (with the exception of Hood) could throw it in the ocean on Saturday I thought it would have been a smart move just to bring Matt in for a stint and see if he could hit a few. That's all. Had TT been doing something strong on offense I wouldn't have suggested it. That's the beauty of having a deep team, talent-wise. When one guy is off, you can try someone else. And I think Matt was someone we could and should have at least given a little run in that 2nd half just to see if he could heat up A-N-D contained the opposing team's guards better. Both sides of the ball were a part of my reasoning.

Kedsy
01-13-2014, 10:17 PM
I think you missed my point. Yes, I know full well that Tyler's stats on the offensive end are better than Matt's. But considering that neither Tyler nor anyone else wearing Duke blue (with the exception of Hood) could throw it in the ocean on Saturday I thought it would have been a smart move just to bring Matt in for a stint and see if he could hit a few. That's all. Had TT been doing something strong on offense I wouldn't have suggested it. That's the beauty of having a deep team, talent-wise. When one guy is off, you can try someone else. And I think Matt was someone we could and should have at least given a little run in that 2nd half just to see if he could heat up A-N-D contained the opposing team's guards better. Both sides of the ball were a part of my reasoning.

I have no problem with you saying it might have been worth doing. You may even be right about that. But I don't think not doing so can be fairly described as a tactical error (much less a "huge" tactical error).

Also, Tyler's stats are not just better. He's shooting really well this season, and Matt has been by far the worst shooter on the team. If you're going to try "someone else," why Matt and not Semi? Or anyone else on the team, really?

CDu
01-14-2014, 12:56 PM
I have no problem with you saying it might have been worth doing. You may even be right about that. But I don't think not doing so can be fairly described as a tactical error (much less a "huge" tactical error).

Also, Tyler's stats are not just better. He's shooting really well this season, and Matt has been by far the worst shooter on the team. If you're going to try "someone else," why Matt and not Semi? Or anyone else on the team, really?

This has been a really strange season so far. We have FIVE guys who have taken 20+ attempts from 3pt range and hit at least 39.1% of them. Four of those players are over 45% from 3pt range. Dawkins, Parker, Hood, and Thornton have been terrific for most of the season from 3pt range, while Sulaimon's recent resurgence has him as currently our highest-percentage 3pt shooter among qualifying players. And yet our highest-volume 3pt shooter this season? Quinn Cook, at just 34.9% but with 83 attempts. Not that Cook is a bad 3pt shooter, but he's clearly been our least efficient shooter among our primary weapons (with Parker joining that list more recently with his slump).

All that is to say that, yeah, Thornton has been terrific from 3pt range. Which is huge. He brings next to nothing to the offensive end other than his ability to hit open set shots, so it's critical that he be good at at least that. He's obviously worked very hard on his shooting to the point that (so long as we have other playmakers on the floor) he's not a complete liability on the offensive end.

As long as two of Cook, Sulaimon, and Hood are in the game, I'm fine with Thornton being there on offense. Where I'm starting to question (or, more accurately, questioning more) is Thornton's value on the defensive end. With Sulaimon returning to form, and with Matt Jones showing tremendous on-ball defense, I think the case can be made that Thornton is our second-worst on-ball defender among our guards. So, ironically, I'd argue that Thornton's playing time is now based in large part on his offensive value (along with his understanding of team defense).

Wander
01-14-2014, 01:41 PM
This has been a really strange season so far. We have FIVE guys who have taken 20+ attempts from 3pt range and hit at least 39.1% of them. Four of those players are over 45% from 3pt range. Dawkins, Parker, Hood, and Thornton have been terrific for most of the season from 3pt range, while Sulaimon's recent resurgence has him as currently our highest-percentage 3pt shooter among qualifying players. And yet our highest-volume 3pt shooter this season? Quinn Cook, at just 34.9% but with 83 attempts. Not that Cook is a bad 3pt shooter, but he's clearly been our least efficient shooter among our primary weapons (with Parker joining that list more recently with his slump).

This doesn't necessarily go against anything you've said, but I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the best three point shooter in the history of college basketball only led Duke in 3 point percentage one out of his four seasons, and just barely edged out "jump shots that flat that go in must violate the laws of physics" Demarcus Nelson in the other year.

greybeard
01-14-2014, 01:48 PM
This is the softest Duke team I remember seeing. Zero toughness. That should be addressed first. Nate James can help.

Also, I would love to see us completely change our game and go really up-tempo, push the ball, and really go after the ball on defense. Lots of substitutions and more Plumlee. It would be easier to hide his weaknesses in a game like that (less sitting back on our heels in the half court sets on defense). We'd give up a lot of easy points, but it might give us the best chance to win against a lot of teams.

I knew this year would be frustrating because we have no proven inside presence and our best guys on offense have no defensive ability, but we have some of the most offensively gifted players in the country. It would be nice to maximize that.

Soft. There were at least 3 defensive plays, probably at least 4, in which a Duke player could have been tossed, as in out. Tyler took the legs out from under two guys who were way off the ground ready to dunk or put back offensive rebounds. I think that he took another UVa guy down when he was about to get to the rim off the dribble. Rasheed took out a guys legs when he stepped past and skied for an offensive rebound, stuck his butt out under the guy. This was soft? Dawkins was banging too. Jefferson, 10 and 15, many of the 15 were in the range of impossible. K, "Amile was," pause to hold it back, a beast." I think he will be a first team All American if he stays 4 years, Rodmanesque in his rebounding abilities, quick and ever moving feet, amazing reads of the ball off the rim before anyone else, strong, feerless, determined beyond imagination. Tyler and another guy went to the floor about midway in the game; you take a look at the guy's face when he was wobbling away. Dawkins, the commentators were agog when he went to the floor and got there first, then went off about the intensity, all out instensity and steel Duke was showing across the board.

We watching and listening to the same game?

K, after apologizing for everything that had happened since "December 26," was "on me." He than explained that, in addition to playing some guys way too many minutes, he failed to coach at all since that point, especially during the break. As a consequence, opposing coaches had a chance to really study Duke's sets, and gamed for them perfectly--presumably, that is common, coaches like K come up with tweaks or new approaches to anticipate that and have the guys prepared to play differently if need be. So, Cook and Parker, in particular, 35 minutes per game, Hood probably similar, people gaming what Duke runs to get them the ball and where and what comes next, the offense gets thrown completely out of whack and everybody has to expend amazing energy just to get something off. There was confusion, the coach was not doing his job and the play of the court was disjointed.

K ended by saying that we will be in it as one from here on out, and we were tonight. "The kids" gave it everything they had, playing a motion offense that we had maybe an hour to put in, UVa can play with anyone in the country, then he excepted Arizona, and had one kid whose name I forget who is "every coach's dream.

In the end, it's just a game, this was a great one fought to the end, and with Duke guys making amazing plays in every single aspect of the game. You don't know that you will see the next second. If you don't, you will have seen 10 guys having played all out as a team with their backs to the wall for their coach who is wounded who deployed his forces en masse to make a stand and they did. If the next moment is your last, you had a great last day. Not a second more, take it in. It gets no better.

duke09hms
01-14-2014, 01:52 PM
Soft. There were at least 3 defensive plays, probably at least 4, in which a Duke player could have been tossed, as in out. Tyler took the legs out from under two guys who were way off the ground ready to dunk or put back offensive rebounds. I think that he took another UVa guy down when he was about to get to the rim off the dribble. Rasheed took out a guys legs when he stepped past and skied for an offensive rebound, stuck his butt out under the guy. This was soft? Dawkins was banging too. Jefferson, 10 and 15, many of the 15 were in the range of impossible. K, "Amile was," pause to hold it back, a beast." I think he will be a first team All American if he stays 4 years, Rodmanesque in his rebounding abilities, quick and ever moving feet, amazing reads of the ball off the rim before anyone else, strong, feerless, determined beyond imagination. Tyler and another guy went to the floor about midway in the game; you take a look at the guy's face when he was wobbling away. Dawkins, the commentators were agog when he went to the floor and got there first, then went off about the intensity, all out instensity and steel Duke was showing across the board.

We watching and listening to the same game?

K, after apologizing for everything that had happened since "December 26," was "on me." He than explained that, in addition to playing some guys way too many minutes, he failed to coach at all since that point, especially during the break. As a consequence, opposing coaches had a chance to really study Duke's sets, and gamed for them perfectly--presumably, that is common, coaches like K come up with tweaks or new approaches to anticipate that and have the guys prepared to play differently if need be. So, Cook and Parker, in particular, 35 minutes per game, Hood probably similar, people gaming what Duke runs to get them the ball and where and what comes next, the offense gets thrown completely out of whack and everybody has to expend amazing energy just to get something off. There was confusion, the coach was not doing his job and the play of the court was disjointed.

K ended by saying that we will be in it as one from here on out, and we were tonight. "The kids" gave it everything they had, playing a motion offense that we had maybe an hour to put in, UVa can play with anyone in the country, then he excepted Arizona, and had one kid whose name I forget who is "every coach's dream.

In the end, it's just a game, this was a great one fought to the end, and with Duke guys making amazing plays in every single aspect of the game. You don't know that you will see the next second. If you don't, you will have seen 10 guys having played all out as a team with their backs to the wall for their coach who is wounded who deployed his forces en masse to make a stand and they did. If the next moment is your last, you had a great last day. Not a second more, take it in. It gets no better.

"Soft" comment referred to the Clemson loss. Youre in the wrong thread.

Duvall
01-14-2014, 01:56 PM
"Soft" comment referred to the Clemson loss. Youre in the wrong thread.

Unless there were some significant roster changes over the last 72 hours, it's still a pretty applicable comment.