Using the Pack Line Defense

[slower]

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/BasketballPackLineDefense.html

Please forgive me if this is redundant or should be folded into an existing thread.

I'm not one of the greater basketball minds on DBR, but this, on the surface, seems to address a lot of our defensive issues. The last line of this article, in particular, stood out to me: "Using the pack line defense can help a good man-to-man team that is having difficulty stopping a good point guard and dribble-penetration."

Now, I realize that the answers to my post may be fairly self-evident:

1. You can't just switch defensive schemes mid-stream.
2. We've been doing just fine (historically, on average) with K's defense.
3. Our man-to-man scheme is the foundation of "Duke Basketball", just like Boeheim's zone or Shaka's "Havoc."
4. Our defensive struggles are purely a matter of communication.

While I gladly accept answers 1-3, I'm not sure I'm buying answer #4. We've seemingly been having the same defensive issues for several years now, haven't we? I don't recall exactly what "the difference" was in the defense we played during the 2010 title run. Was it just the heady play on D of Zoubs and Lance, or was there something beyond that?

As I said, I'm certainly not one of the experts. I'm just asking the question. Thanks for your indulgence.

[Troublemaker]

Hey slower, it would be interesting to see this team play Pack Line. My guess is a lot of the mental errors our players are making (poor awareness, poor positioning, poor but improving communication) while playing Coach K's defense would also manifest themselves, just in different ways in a Pack Line. For example, in a Pack Line, defenders are okay with giving up 3-pt attempts as long as they can close out on the shooter hard from the Pack Line. Players have to be positioned correctly to clog up driving lanes but at the same time not be too far away from the shooter. They also have to be aware that a kickout pass can come at any time so they can immediately rush out and contest the 3-pt attempt. So, awareness and positioning and communication are important in any defensive system. And defending the high pick n' roll will stress any man2man defensive system and requires proper awareness, positioning, and communication as well.

I think our players just need to continue to gain experience in our system to eliminate the mental errors as much as possible. They've made strides already since the first 6 games of the season. I'm anxious to see if they can continue to make strides as we get into the meat of the ACC schedule. I'm hopeful.

On a practical level, Coach K's not going to play Pack Line. It's too philosphically different from his preference to limit opponent's 3-pt attempts. Duke is generally among the nation's leaders in limiting 3-pt attempts (ranking 34th, 24th, 3rd, and 5th the past four years for example). UVA is probably most associated with playing Pack Line because coach Tony Bennett's father Dick innovated/popularized it. UVA's ranks the past four years in limiting 3-pt attempts: 264, 203, 153, 259.

[MarkD83]

On a practical level, Coach K's not going to play Pack Line. It's too philosphically different from his preference to limit opponent's 3-pt attempts. Duke is generally among the nation's leaders in limiting 3-pt attempts (ranking 34th, 24th, 3rd, and 5th the past four years for example). UVA is probably most associated with playing Pack Line because coach Tony Bennett's father Dick innovated/popularized it. UVA's ranks the past four years in limiting 3-pt attempts: 264, 203, 153, 259.

I think you can't underestimate that Duke's offensive success from the 3 point line plays into the defensive philosophy. Duke would be happy to give up 2 pt layups every 2d or 3rd possession as long as we are hitting 3 ptrs every 2nd or 3rd possession.

[Kfanarmy]

I think you can't underestimate that Duke's offensive success from the 3 point line plays into the defensive philosophy. Duke would be happy to give up 2 pt layups every 2d or 3rd possession as long as we are hitting 3 ptrs every 2nd or 3rd possession.

In a couple of games they've gone possession after possesion after possession giving up layups. In order to come out ahead shooting 40% on threes, you have to limit the opponent to less than 60% on 2's (all other things being equal).

[slower]

Thanks for the feedback, folks. As I said, I'm just asking the question. It seems that over the past few years, we find ourselves constantly being "out-sized" or "out-athleted". I didn't know whether we could fall back into something closer to the pack line against the stronger dribble-drive teams (where we are getting killed - perhaps more so with the new rule changes/emphases).

[Bob Green]

Virginia runs the Pack Line Defense as it was created by Dick Bennett the father of current Cavalier Coach Tony Bennett.

Edit: Oops, I see Troublemaker already posted this info.

[Troublemaker]

Thanks for the feedback, folks. As I said, I'm just asking the question. It seems that over the past few years, we find ourselves constantly being "out-sized" or "out-athleted". I didn't know whether we could fall back into something closer to the pack line against the stronger dribble-drive teams (where we are getting killed - perhaps more so with the new rule changes/emphases).

Yeah, that's the curious thing about this team - I think we have the athletes to play Coach K's defense well. While no one player is a freak athletically (like UNC's Tokoto, for example), most of our players are good to very good athletes.

That begs the question then: are we just too inexperienced to play Duke's defense well? I would lean that way, but then you have the example of the young 2007 Duke team that played Duke's defense very well (7th-ranked D in Pomeroy).

The difference between '07 and '14 is that the young '07 post players So McRoberts, So McClure, and Fr Thomas understood Duke's defense quicker and made fewer mistakes than Fr Parker, So Hood (when he plays the 4), and So Jefferson in team/help/hedge defense. (And also '07 was obviously a drastically inferior offensive team.) But like I said, I think we are making strides. I think Amile is a better defensive player now than he was earlier in the season and I think, at some point, Jabari and Rodney will make a jump defensively as well. And if MP3 can get to the point where he offers 10 good minutes, that would be nice.

Do I think this team can rank as high as #7 on defense? No, but I think we are a strong Final Four contender if we have the best offense and improve that D ranking into the top 30 or so.

Basically I want us to be a better version of last year's Michigan team that played for the national championship.

[throatybeard]

As someone who barely pays attention when the games are on my TV screen, I was surprised to learn on ESPN today that Jabari Parker has 0.8 defensive win shares, which is top 20 in the nation.

[Kedsy]

As someone who barely pays attention when the games are on my TV screen, I was surprised to learn on ESPN today that Jabari Parker has 0.8 defensive win shares, which is top 20 in the nation.

Presumably because of his blocks and steals. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think defensive win-shares take into account poor defensive positioning, bad hedging, or inadvisable and unsuccessful doubling.

[slower]

Ok, I'll ask the question again. Why can't we try something similar?

[duke09hms]

-Why do we pressure the ball so far out on teams that aren't known for shooting the 3 but possess dribble-drive prowess?
-Why no Marshall Plumlee when we are getting killed by perimeter blow-bys and rebounding?

[Cameron]

While I agree with this as an approach that could possibly help this team overcome some of its shortcomings, the biggest reason why it won't work is that Coach K is too steadfast to employ it. Like a captain of the sea, his crew will either finally run the ship as he sees fit or he will go down with the wreckage. I guess that's admirable..

While K is great at adding new wrinkles here and there, I simply don't see a total overhaul of our defense in the cards, and reverting to a pack-line system would essentially mean K abandoning what he believes in most. Not gonna happen.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Sorry if this is sort of cross posting from the other thread, but I would like to propose another plan.

If MP3 is not the answer we all wish he was (if he were, K would play him more.., therefore, he simply isn't there yet) let's focus on our strengths instead of patching our weaknesses.

Let's press full court on on ther perimeter. We have talent, experience, and depth at guard and wing. We can push on offense to keep defenses off-guard and pressure opposing offenses into bad passes. It takes good communication and quick reactions, but maximizes our strengths and forces our will on other teams making them uncomfortable. I love the idea of Hood and Parker flying into passin lanes to intercept errant frantic passes.

Slap the floor and get after them!

Go Duke!

[archand1]

Sorry if this is sort of cross posting from the other thread, but I would like to propose another plan.

If MP3 is not the answer we all wish he was (if he were, K would play him more.., therefore, he simply isn't there yet) let's focus on our strengths instead of patching our weaknesses.

Let's press full court on on ther perimeter. We have talent, experience, and depth at guard and wing. We can push on offense to keep defenses off-guard and pressure opposing offenses into bad passes. It takes good communication and quick reactions, but maximizes our strengths and forces our will on other teams making them uncomfortable. I love the idea of Hood and Parker flying into passin lanes to intercept errant frantic passes.

Slap the floor and get after them!

Go Duke!
This is the original strategy the coaching staff employed at the start of the season with no success. As you say, it takes good communication, but maximizes our strengths. The trouble is, well, our communication is a glaring weakness.

[Hoos Crazy]

While I agree with this as an approach that could possibly help this team overcome some of its shortcomings, the biggest reason why it won't work is that Coach K is too steadfast to employ it. Like a captain of the sea, his crew will either finally run the ship as he sees fit or he will go down with the wreckage. I guess that's admirable..

While K is great at adding new wrinkles here and there, I simply don't see a total overhaul of our defense in the cards, and reverting to a pack-line system would essentially mean K abandoning what he believes in most. Not gonna happen.

First off, as a Virginia fan, I'm flattered that Duke is even having this conversation. Coach K has said some nice things about UVA's defense in the past and it is encouraging to hear Duke's fans even entertain a discussion of switching to our system. I know that you guys know your hoops, so it is flattering.

That said, anyone who would seriously suggest switching (particularly mid-season) is talking crazy. Duke's defense is part of what makes Duke basketball great. The on-ball pressure, with very aggressive denial of the passing lanes, drawing charges on dribble penetration, and a focus on denying 3-point shots is a very sound defensive system. You've got banners to prove that. If your players aren't executing that scheme properly, that doesn't mean there's a problem with the system.

Part of the reason that Virginia plays the pack line defense is because we typically have not recruited athletes who can play a more aggressive style. Pete Gillen proved quite conclusively that trying to press teams with better athletes doesn't really work. I actually think that the pack line would be a bad choice for Duke. Because the pack line focuses on clogging the middle, rather than applying ball pressure, it slows down the game. In a game with fewer possessions, the talent gap between the two teams is de-emphasized. UVA does well when it can control tempo and make teams play at its pace. Honestly, I think that slowing down the game is the last thing that Duke wants to do. Duke should thrive on playing an up-tempo pace. A defense which forces the tempo means more offensive possessions, which favors Duke. As a system, the pack line would be a bad choice for a program which recruits elite talent. Frankly, I'm also not sure that the pack line wouldn't hurt Duke's recruiting - NBA prospects don't really want to slow it down.

This year, Duke has a great offense and a fairly average defense. Switching systems isn't going to make things better. The pack line isn't easy to play - no team (however well coached) could switch to it mid-season and expect good results. While it looks deceptively simple - just sag into the lane - there are a lot of subtleties which make the difference between it being decent vs. excellent. The positioning away from the ball, knowing when to double team the post, etc. are things that take a long time to develop. While I'm quite certain that given time to learn it, Duke's kids could run a pack line defense very well, I don't think that any college team could just switch systems mid-season and expect good results. The answer is that Duke's kids need to learn to execute better on defense. Coach K has to find the right lineup combinations and get his players to do things correctly. Changing systems is not the answer.

It may be that changes to the officiating this season make it harder to play Duke's style of defense. It is harder to get ball pressure when more fouls are being called on the perimeter. I haven't watched enough of your games to really know whether refs are calling fewer charges, but if you don't have a shot blocker to cover mistakes on the perimeter, I can see the problem. Fortunately for Virginia, I do not think that the changes to officiating have had much impact on UVA's pack line defense. Sagging into the lane and denying dribble penetration doesn't seem to draw a lot of foul calls. I'm not sure what adjustments Coach K will want to make over time to deal with the difference in officiating.

[MChambers]

First off, as a Virginia fan, I'm flattered that Duke is even having this conversation. Coach K has said some nice things about UVA's defense in the past and it is encouraging to hear Duke's fans even entertain a discussion of switching to our system. I know that you guys know your hoops, so it is flattering.

That said, anyone who would seriously suggest switching (particularly mid-season) is talking crazy. Duke's defense is part of what makes Duke basketball great. The on-ball pressure, with very aggressive denial of the passing lanes, drawing charges on dribble penetration, and a focus on denying 3-point shots is a very sound defensive system. You've got banners to prove that. If your players aren't executing that scheme properly, that doesn't mean there's a problem with the system.

Part of the reason that Virginia plays the pack line defense is because we typically have not recruited athletes who can play a more aggressive style. Pete Gillen proved quite conclusively that trying to press teams with better athletes doesn't really work. I actually think that the pack line would be a bad choice for Duke. Because the pack line focuses on clogging the middle, rather than applying ball pressure, it slows down the game. In a game with fewer possessions, the talent gap between the two teams is de-emphasized. UVA does well when it can control tempo and make teams play at its pace. Honestly, I think that slowing down the game is the last thing that Duke wants to do. Duke should thrive on playing an up-tempo pace. A defense which forces the tempo means more offensive possessions, which favors Duke. As a system, the pack line would be a bad choice for a program which recruits elite talent. Frankly, I'm also not sure that the pack line wouldn't hurt Duke's recruiting - NBA prospects don't really want to slow it down.

This year, Duke has a great offense and a fairly average defense. Switching systems isn't going to make things better. The pack line isn't easy to play - no team (however well coached) could switch to it mid-season and expect good results. While it looks deceptively simple - just sag into the lane - there are a lot of subtleties which make the difference between it being decent vs. excellent. The positioning away from the ball, knowing when to double team the post, etc. are things that take a long time to develop. While I'm quite certain that given time to learn it, Duke's kids could run a pack line defense very well, I don't think that any college team could just switch systems mid-season and expect good results. The answer is that Duke's kids need to learn to execute better on defense. Coach K has to find the right lineup combinations and get his players to do things correctly. Changing systems is not the answer.

It may be that changes to the officiating this season make it harder to play Duke's style of defense. It is harder to get ball pressure when more fouls are being called on the perimeter. I haven't watched enough of your games to really know whether refs are calling fewer charges, but if you don't have a shot blocker to cover mistakes on the perimeter, I can see the problem. Fortunately for Virginia, I do not think that the changes to officiating have had much impact on UVA's pack line defense. Sagging into the lane and denying dribble penetration doesn't seem to draw a lot of foul calls. I'm not sure what adjustments Coach K will want to make over time to deal with the difference in officiating.

This is a great post. I agree with everyone you wrote! (Which should make you worry, but still . . .)

Thanks for taking the time to write such a cogent analysis.

[sagegrouse]

This is a great post. I agree with everyone you wrote! (Which should make you worry, but still . . .)

Thanks for taking the time to write such a cogent analysis.

Ditto. Welcome to the Board.

[Troublemaker]

Yep, great stuff, Hoos Crazy. Hoping our teams put on a great show for us tonight. Welcome!

[Hoos Crazy]

Yep, great stuff, Hoos Crazy. Hoping our teams put on a great show for us tonight. Welcome!

Thanks. Honestly, I'm not sure I want tonight's game to be much of a show. Duke wins shows. I want an ugly, unwatchable slog of a game. :rolleyes:

Oddly, I don't really think the pack line is an optimal defense against Duke. As much as I love watching Virginia play defense, I've always thought that we match up better against post-oriented teams than against teams with multiple perimiter options. Clogging the middle doesn't really do a lot of good when you're playing a team that is trying to get 3-point shots. Ryan Kelly always scared the hell out of me, because he could stretch our defense in a way it was not intended to go. When Duke is playing a 4-out offense, it also makes it very hard to double the post when the ball goes inside. Honestly, Duke is probably the hardest team for Virginia to defend. With 5 players shooting over 40% from 3-point range, plus Cook at 35%, it is very hard to play our style and not give up good open looks. I do think that Virginia will work hard to close out on shooters and contest those 3's, but systemically, Duke's offense is the worst nightmare for a pack line team.

[Kfanarmy]

Sorry if this is sort of cross posting from the other thread, but I would like to propose another plan.

If MP3 is not the answer we all wish he was (if he were, K would play him more.., therefore, he simply isn't there yet) let's focus on our strengths instead of patching our weaknesses.

Let's press full court on on ther perimeter. We have talent, experience, and depth at guard and wing. We can push on offense to keep defenses off-guard and pressure opposing offenses into bad passes. It takes good communication and quick reactions, but maximizes our strengths and forces our will on other teams making them uncomfortable. I love the idea of Hood and Parker flying into passin lanes to intercept errant frantic passes.

Slap the floor and get after them!

Go Duke! One of the big things missing in this strategy is the timing and speed to get in the passing lanes... Cook and Thorton are the only ones who seem to ever get a hand on the ball when it is passed. I'm not sure if that is a foot speed thing or if they are just the only ones who are capable of anticipating the pass. Unfortunately Cook got his hands on seveal balls against Clemson that bounced right to another Clemson player...a microsecond slow. I'd be happier and I think it would work a lot better for this team to simply try to play pure lock-down man to man. Don't switch unless absolutely necessary, don't deny (except perhaps the opposing Center), don't overplay the lane. Stay between your guy and the rim. They are just getting smoke checked when they try to deny the pass or intercept it.

[throatybeard]

Nice SI article on this defense from a couple years ago:

http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1195699/index.htm