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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 79, Georgia Tech 57 - Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
01-07-2014, 07:51 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

uh_no
01-07-2014, 07:53 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

wow.....what a second half....THAT is the national championship contender......

Duvall
01-07-2014, 07:54 PM
Good to have Sheed back.

Dev11
01-07-2014, 07:54 PM
We started slow, then we figured out to move the ball and get to the rim, and we won. I'll take 79-55 ACC games all day.

FerryFor50
01-07-2014, 07:55 PM
Great game!

Positives:

- much better effort and defense overall
- less hero ball and settling for contested 3s
- more drives and getting to the line
- Amile, Sulaimon, Hood and Dawkins
- monster effort on the boards

Negatives:

- Parker still struggling on both ends, but showed signs of life on offense a little
- Miller scored at will for the most part
- still allowed some easy points in the paint
- wide margin of victory will not allow me to spend the next 5 days arguing in this thread whether the season is over
- 1-17 ACC prediction utterly incorrect

Dukehky
01-07-2014, 07:55 PM
Amile 10 boards. We started hitting threes and pulled away. I thought Marshall played well in his 2 minutes. Would have liked to see him a little more, but whatevs. Good win. I don't like playing at Clemson, but you gotta play who and where the schedule says we're supposed to play.

17-1 ACC prediction still in play. Why not, right?

Saratoga2
01-07-2014, 07:56 PM
Great production from Rodney and from the combination of Andre and Rasheed. Jabari is still trying to find his way in the ACC. He has what it takes. Prefer hearing from those directly at the game.

CDu
01-07-2014, 07:56 PM
That second half was a thing of beauty. We dominated in nearly every way after a pretty poor first half.

The ONLY quibble is that we had no answer for Miller inside. Thankfully, Georgia Tech was content to ignore him for much of the game. Well, and another not-so-hot performance from Parker. Hopefully that gets corrected soon.

Aside from that, we just dominated the second half. 45-24 in the second half. And we even outrebounded Tech - the first team to do so this year (though some of that may be a function of them losing their best post player).

Nice to see Hood stepping up. Solid game from Sulaimon as well. And Dawkins did a good job of producing even when his 3pt shot wasn't falling tonight. That's great to see.

Loved Jefferson's work on the boards. He fought valiantly inside to keep Miller from getting many offensive rebounds.

I'll take it. It wasn't a thing of beauty early, but it was gorgeous late.

DukieInBrasil
01-07-2014, 07:56 PM
After a chunky start, the offense came alive quite nicely: 5 guys in double figures, Hood with 27, very nice balance.
Also nice to see Andre contributing in so many ways, particularly when his shooting was off. He got to the line, rebounds, a steal, a block and an assist, nice balance.
Rasheed had a very solid game as did Amile.
Even though neither Quinn or Jabari shot all that well, they both played well enough.
Our defense totally disrupted GT in the second half, turning a 1pt game at the half to a 22pt win.

CLW
01-07-2014, 07:57 PM
shots fell in the 2nd half were they didn't in the 1st. this team can score no doubt about it but the defensive concerns with dribble penetration and post defense were again exposed for quite a bit for a final game total of 94.4 points per 100 possessions.

glad to see the +8 on the boards and the free throw shooting was excellent all night.

Furniture
01-07-2014, 08:00 PM
Tyler's and Josh's stats vs Rasheed's and Amiles justifies K's starters tonight...

Player PTS AST OR REB STL BLK TO PF FG FGA FT FTA 3P 3PA MINS +/- **
Rodney Hood * 27 3 2 6 0 0 1 1 8 12 6 6 5 7 39 17
Quinn Cook * 13 5 0 1 0 0 1 1 4 10 4 4 1 4 37 10
Jabari Parker * 12 0 3 6 0 0 2 4 4 12 4 4 0 2 22 5
RashSulaimon * 11 2 1 5 0 0 1 1 4 7 1 2 2 2 36 13
Andre Dawkins 10 1 0 3 1 1 0 0 2 7 5 6 1 5 25 6
Amile Jeff. * 6 1 2 10 0 1 0 2 2 3 2 3 0 0 28 19
Marshall Plumlee0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 -3
Matt Jones 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 -3
Tyler Thornton 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0
Josh Hairston 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 -7

How long will it be before Amile gets a double double?

FerryFor50
01-07-2014, 08:03 PM
Tyler's and Josh's stats vs Rasheed's and Amiles justifies K's starters tonight...

Player PTS AST OR REB STL BLK TO PF FG FGA FT FTA 3P 3PA MINS +/- **
Rodney Hood * 27 3 2 6 0 0 1 1 8 12 6 6 5 7 39 17
Quinn Cook * 13 5 0 1 0 0 1 1 4 10 4 4 1 4 37 10
Jabari Parker * 12 0 3 6 0 0 2 4 4 12 4 4 0 2 22 5
RashSulaimon * 11 2 1 5 0 0 1 1 4 7 1 2 2 2 36 13
Andre Dawkins 10 1 0 3 1 1 0 0 2 7 5 6 1 5 25 6
Amile Jeff. * 6 1 2 10 0 1 0 2 2 3 2 3 0 0 28 19
Marshall Plumlee0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 -3
Matt Jones 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 -3
Tyler Thornton 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0
Josh Hairston 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 -7

Eh, hard to get stats in such limited minutes.

kAzE
01-07-2014, 08:03 PM
Some observations:
- Thornton and Hairston's minutes went down the drain
- Jefferson and Sulaimon played very well
- Offense was good throughout, got much more action in the paint (big improvement over the ND game), better passing, finding the open man
- Great job rebounding against a good rebounding team, beat them on the glass 33 to 25
- Defense on the perimeter was better, defense inside still lacking
- 22 of 25 from the foul line (88%) Home court is good
- Dawkins can drive!!
- Still not much of a transition game, not forcing many live ball turnovers


Parker's playing a bit too aggressively, he needs to slow down and just try to make the easy play. He's pressing and forcing things to get out of his slump right now. That's not the way to do it. His interior defense is also really bad right now. We're going to get mauled by below average big men all season long if he can't push guys a bit off the block.

_Gary
01-07-2014, 08:07 PM
Eh, hard to get stats in such limited minutes.

My only concern with those stats are that only 6 guys got the majority of the minutes. I'm very happy we won, and did so in nice fashion in the 2nd half. But I sincerely hope we don't dip down to primarily 6 guys the rest of the way. I think we'll be seriously gassed come March if that continues. Other than that, I was pleased with what I saw in the 2nd half all the way around.

sagegrouse
01-07-2014, 08:11 PM
Shiver me timbers! We outrebounded the Yellow Jackets 33-25 in the prelim totals.

Arrgghh! That Amile has some Bill Russell/Dennis Rodman qualities in seeing and grabbing the ball. it is fun to watch him work underneath.

Rodney was the star, but Andre had a very good all-around game (except for 3-pt shooting).

I thought the largest part of the improvement in our defense was that, in the second half, the Yellow Jackets quit making every shot they threw up. Some times the defense is good, but yu still ahve to walk the plank.

kAzE
01-07-2014, 08:11 PM
Tyler's and Josh's stats vs Rasheed's and Amiles justifies K's starters tonight...

Player PTS AST OR REB STL BLK TO PF FG FGA FT FTA 3P 3PA MINS +/- **
Rodney Hood * 27 3 2 6 0 0 1 1 8 12 6 6 5 7 39 17
Quinn Cook * 13 5 0 1 0 0 1 1 4 10 4 4 1 4 37 10
Jabari Parker * 12 0 3 6 0 0 2 4 4 12 4 4 0 2 22 5
RashSulaimon * 11 2 1 5 0 0 1 1 4 7 1 2 2 2 36 13
Andre Dawkins 10 1 0 3 1 1 0 0 2 7 5 6 1 5 25 6
Amile Jeff. * 6 1 2 10 0 1 0 2 2 3 2 3 0 0 28 19
Marshall Plumlee0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 -3
Matt Jones 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 -3
Tyler Thornton 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0
Josh Hairston 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 4 -7

How long will it be before Amile gets a double double?

Thornton's value was never quantifiable by stats to begin with.

CDu
01-07-2014, 08:18 PM
Thornton's value was never quantifiable by stats to begin with.

Well, theoretically it should be captured by +/-. Of course +/- is very limited as a stat (especially over just a 6-minute sample size).

Still, I don't think Hairston or Thornton did much good or bad. It was more a situation where Georgia Tech didn't have much size at PF (hence we could go small and didn't need Hairston) and our other wings were having really good games (lessening the need for Thornton).

This was an example of the "ceiling" difference between our true seniors and their counterparts.

Furniture
01-07-2014, 08:27 PM
Well, theoretically it should be captured by +/-. Of course +/- is very limited as a stat (especially over just a 6-minute sample size).

Still, I don't think Hairston or Thornton did much good or bad. It was more a situation where Georgia Tech didn't have much size at PF (hence we could go small and didn't need Hairston) and our other wings were having really good games (lessening the need for Thornton).

This was an example of the "ceiling" difference between our true seniors and their counterparts.

Who knows. Maybe K thought its time to give the true talented starters a chance and also give them plenty of minutes. It doesn't mean however that he will always give these 6 the majority of minutes. He may back off again next game.

CoachJ10
01-07-2014, 08:31 PM
Shiver me timbers! We outrebounded the Yellow Jackets 33-25 in the prelim totals.

Arrgghh! That Amile has some Bill Russell/Dennis Rodman qualities in seeing and grabbing the ball. it is fun to watch him work underneath.

Rodney was the star, but Andre had a very good all-around game (except for 3-pt shooting).

I thought the largest part of the improvement in our defense was that, in the second half, the Yellow Jackets quit making every shot they threw up. Some times the defense is good, but yu still ahve to walk the plank.

One of the downsides of taking everyone's best shot (the Duke effect)...is teams do hit a higher percentage of high difficulty shots against us. The crown is a heavy thing to wear!

Also, can someone set up one of those online petitions to have Len Elmore banned from "calling" anymore Duke games. Our opponents' home radio announcers are more objective than he is.

dukelifer
01-07-2014, 08:33 PM
Happy with the win and the greater energy in the second half. Amile is really doing his job well. If they would pass to him inside - he probably would score as well. But he is boxing out and bounding with strength. Jabari will get it back but the team needs learn to play when he is not on. This bench sitting will help Jabaru relax and help the other guys to step up. Andre did a great job of driving and Rasheed continues to get better. Still wish he would pull up and not try to take it to the basket. Cook is an enigma. He never seems to be the guy dictating the flow of the game and makes a lot of unforced errors. He has moments but he does not impose his will enough. Hood is an excellent shooter - a huge weapon. He is definitely playing with confidence now. The D remains a huge concern as does the lack of inside scoring. Tech is not a good team and Duke eventually won my the margin I expected. Clemson will be a big test for Duke.

CDu
01-07-2014, 08:37 PM
Who knows. Maybe K thought its time to give the true talented starters a chance and also give them plenty of minutes. It doesn't mean however that he will always give these 6 the majority of minutes. He may back off again next game.

I'm not sure if the bolded part was intended as a sarcastic slap at my post, but I felt I should clarify just in case: "true senior" was used because we also have two redshirt seniors (Dawkins and Zafirovski). It was just a way of specifying that I was referring to Thornton and Hairston. Using the parlance of football, they are true seniors and not redshirt seniors.

DU82
01-07-2014, 08:42 PM
My only concern with those stats are that only 6 guys got the majority of the minutes. I'm very happy we won, and did so in nice fashion in the 2nd half. But I sincerely hope we don't dip down to primarily 6 guys the rest of the way. I think we'll be seriously gassed come March if that continues. Other than that, I was pleased with what I saw in the 2nd half all the way around.

The tempo was slow tonight, running deep into the shot clock, so the guys didn't tire out as quickly as they would playing an up tempo game against somebody else. Therefore less reason to sub out the five that were playing so well.

Jabari looked tired again. Perhaps the flu or some bug in addition to learning how difficult it is to play ACC games.

millerecu
01-07-2014, 08:42 PM
Pick up basketball is the only way I have ever played so I do not always see basketball with the structure that some of you on this forum do. I honestly do not understand why Plumlee does not get more time just for his defense. It seems to me he comes in and plays good defense (better than the matador defense). Gets a good block and then gets yanked. What is he doing incorrectly that he can't get more playing time when they are getting killed in the paint?

OldSchool
01-07-2014, 08:44 PM
One of the best plays of the night to my eyes came at the 4:24 mark of the second half when Amile slipped his screen and rolled to the basket and Andre hit him with a pass thrown over the reach of their big guy Miller.

Why don't we do that play, say, eight times a game? For example, have Jabari slip his screen and hit him as he rolls to the rim. Or Amile, or MP3. It's a way to attack the paint and get our bigs involved, maybe get fouls on their big guys.

We need to be stronger in bread-and-butter plays off screens so we have something to go to when the threes aren't falling beyond Jabari iso on his man or Quinn or Sheed going one-on-the-other-team to the rim.

jipops
01-07-2014, 08:47 PM
A lot of Jabari's shots hitting the front of the rim.

I believe we held Tech to 7 points for the last 10 minutes. And 2 of those was meaningless dunk we gave away just to have the clock run.

roywhite
01-07-2014, 08:48 PM
Lots of positives, particularly about the second half.

One gripe -- didn't like the way Quinn let the shot clock run waaay down while dribbling around on the perimeter; on a few occasions, didn't end up with a good shot at all.

53n206
01-07-2014, 08:55 PM
Agree, all shot clock wind down shots were painful. Wild, off balanced shots--- what the...?

bedeviled
01-07-2014, 08:57 PM
... time to give the true talented starters a chance and also give them plenty of minutes....Hahaha, I think I finally know how you feel about the situation. ;) As others pointed out, those particular stats aren't very meaningful. For gits and shiggles, though, I looked at the SCACCHoops +/- for the first half. Perhaps you'd be surprised to see that Thorton was +1, while Rasheed was -6 and Andre was -8 for the first half (and Quinn -9)

Furniture
01-07-2014, 08:59 PM
I'm not sure if the bolded part was intended as a sarcastic slap at my post, but I felt I should clarify just in case: "true senior" was used because we also have two redshirt seniors (Dawkins and Zafirovski). It was just a way of specifying that I was referring to Thornton and Hairston. Using the parlance of football, they are true seniors and not redshirt seniors.

Nope. Never even crossed my mind...

Ima Facultiwyfe
01-07-2014, 09:00 PM
Sure seemed to me that Plumlee, given the chance, could have played/neutralized Miller. Only thing I could think of as to why he didn't get more minutes is that maybe they wanted better free throw shooters going into the fray. Whoever taught Mason to hit 'em needs to go to work.

Terrific to hear K give credit to Wojo for play calling.

Nice contributions by everybody.
Love, Ima

GGLC
01-07-2014, 09:01 PM
One of the best plays of the night to my eyes came at the 4:24 mark of the second half when Amile slipped his screen and rolled to the basket and Andre hit him with a pass thrown over the reach of their big guy Miller.

Why don't we do that play, say, eight times a game? For example, have Jabari slip his screen and hit him as he rolls to the rim. Or Amile, or MP3. It's a way to attack the paint and get our bigs involved, maybe get fouls on their big guys.

We need to be stronger in bread-and-butter plays off screens so we have something to go to when the threes aren't falling beyond Jabari iso on his man or Quinn or Sheed going one-on-the-other-team to the rim.

I could not agree more with this.

azzefkram
01-07-2014, 09:01 PM
Much better second half. Really liked how Andre was playing even though his outside shot wasn't falling. We never really saw that Andre during his first three years. Amile may not always be in the right spot but I can live with that if he's going to grab 10 boards. He was moderately effective against Miller (two of his baskets were just good shots over good defense). I finally saw why some like Josh out there (not being sarcastic) as I saw him moving and directing people on D. Unfortunately I also saw why I don't like him out there as both Miller and Holsey basically abused him on D. Starting to wonder if Marshall kicked Coach K's dog. While I can't say I'm happy to see Jabari struggle I'm glad it's happening now instead of late February/early March.

It wasn't always pretty but it still qualifies as a good win.

CDu
01-07-2014, 09:05 PM
One of the best plays of the night to my eyes came at the 4:24 mark of the second half when Amile slipped his screen and rolled to the basket and Andre hit him with a pass thrown over the reach of their big guy Miller.

Why don't we do that play, say, eight times a game? For example, have Jabari slip his screen and hit him as he rolls to the rim. Or Amile, or MP3. It's a way to attack the paint and get our bigs involved, maybe get fouls on their big guys.

We need to be stronger in bread-and-butter plays off screens so we have something to go to when the threes aren't falling beyond Jabari iso on his man or Quinn or Sheed going one-on-the-other-team to the rim.

We actually try the slip screen several times a game. It just doesn't always work. You have to get the "big" defender to commit to the hedge but still have enough space for the passer to feed the post. And you have to do it all within the brief window before the "big" recovers.

If you run the slip screen too often, teams will pick up on it. So you have to run it sparingly for it to be effective. And even then, it isn't going to be effective every time.

azzefkram
01-07-2014, 09:11 PM
Hahaha, I think I finally know how you feel about the situation. ;) As others pointed out, those particular stats aren't very meaningful. For gits and shiggles, though, I looked at the SCACCHoops +/- for the first half. Perhaps you'd be surprised to see that Thorton was +1, while Rasheed was -6 and Andre was -8 for the first half (and Quinn -9)

Unless I misunderstand +/-, I don't see how Quinn's could be -9 in the first half. Quinn was only on the bench for 1:30 and Duke was -2 during that stretch. We ended the half +1.

OldSchool
01-07-2014, 09:12 PM
We actually try the slip screen several times a game. It just doesn't always work. You have to get the "big" defender to commit to the hedge but still have enough space for the passer to feed the post. And you have to do it all within the brief window before the "big" recovers.

If you run the slip screen too often, teams will pick up on it. So you have to run it sparingly for it to be effective. And even then, it isn't going to be effective every time.

Our bigs frequently slip, but almost always our guard gives little more than a pro forma look toward that. Look, it's a hard pass to make and I suspect the guards don't trust the bigs to make the right play if they do get the ball in that spot. But I think especially with Jabari we need to develop that more and that with practice on timing he will be able to make the right decision with the ball if they can get it to him. There is a reason that play is so basic in the NBA.

CDu
01-07-2014, 09:20 PM
Our bigs frequently slip, but almost always our guard gives little more than a pro forma look toward that. Look, it's a hard pass to make and I suspect the guards don't trust the bigs to make the right play if they do get the ball in that spot. But I think especially with Jabari we need to develop that more and that with practice on timing he will be able to make the right decision with the ball if they can get it to him. There is a reason that play is so basic in the NBA.

And part of the reason is that the quality of both the passers and the finishers is MUCH better in the NBA.

It is a great play. But it takes tremendous timing on both players' part. And given that our offense is REALLY good already, I support the hesitance to throw that pass unless it is very open.

Ultrarunner
01-07-2014, 09:20 PM
We actually try the slip screen several times a game. It just doesn't always work. You have to get the "big" defender to commit to the hedge but still have enough space for the passer to feed the post. And you have to do it all within the brief window before the "big" recovers.

If you run the slip screen too often, teams will pick up on it. So you have to run it sparingly for it to be effective. And even then, it isn't going to be effective every time.

I suspect that it may be especially effective with Andre if he continues to drive. In tonight's game, he had already taken it inside about three times and you have to honor his shooting ability. That kind of offensive threat will freeze the big for the fraction of a second that it takes to achieve separation.

Andre over the last two seasons that he played has tried to feed the post. With his height, he can create better angles to deliver those passes. Tonight's was just a very pretty pass that lead Amile perfectly.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings to run that particular play a few more times a game and mix it up with Hood heading to the corner so the defenders have three potential attackers, at three distances. If Andre can continue to attack the basket to keep the defense honest and make the right pass, life could get downright pleasant.

azzefkram
01-07-2014, 09:22 PM
Our bigs frequently slip, but almost always our guard gives little more than a pro forma look toward that. Look, it's a hard pass to make and I suspect the guards don't trust the bigs to make the right play if they do get the ball in that spot. But I think especially with Jabari we need to develop that more and that with practice on timing he will be able to make the right decision with the ball if they can get it to him. There is a reason that play is so basic in the NBA.


And part of the reason is that the quality of both the passers and the finishers is MUCH better in the NBA.

It is a great play. But it takes tremendous timing on both players' part. And given that our offense is REALLY good already, I support the hesitance to throw that pass unless it is very open.

Is this going to be one of those OldSchool/NewSchool type of discussions?:p

bedeviled
01-07-2014, 09:28 PM
I don't see how Quinn's could be -9 in the first halfWell, I knew better than joining that debate! I guess we can chalk it up to another example of why not to find those stats meaningful :) SCACCHoops has Quinn playing 17 minutes of the first half, but I think you are still right to be suspicious (it's not like GT stopped the clock and made free throws). I have no answer for you

OldSchool
01-07-2014, 09:28 PM
And part of the reason is that the quality of both the passers and the finishers is MUCH better in the NBA.

It is a great play. But it takes tremendous timing on both players' part. And given that our offense is REALLY good already, I support the hesitance to throw that pass unless it is very open.

I've been griping about this ever since we first got Miles and Mason (finally, we had highly mobile and athletic bigs with decent hands). We had way too many missed open cuts to the basket by those guys and too much lazy dribble screening. I lay it at the feet of the guards.

At the present time, I think we need to use Jabari in more dimensions. Hey, I completely understand why you would give him the ball and isolate him on his man. At times he's almost unguardable and it's a great way to rack up fouls, often on one of their best defenders. But I think we should work him more seriously with screen-and-roll and and I also think we should have him running off screens just for open jump shots. Jabari is an outstanding jump shooter, let's give him some bunnies from time to time to get him an easy look.

Clay Feet POF
01-07-2014, 09:30 PM
I suspect that it may be especially effective with Andre if he continues to drive. In tonight's game, he had already taken it inside about three times and you have to honor his shooting ability. That kind of offensive threat will freeze the big for the fraction of a second that it takes to achieve separation.

Andre over the last two seasons that he played has tried to feed the post. With his height, he can create better angles to deliver those passes. Tonight's was just a very pretty pass that lead Amile perfectly.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings to run that particular play a few more times a game and mix it up with Hood heading to the corner so the defenders have three potential attackers, at three distances. If Andre can continue to attack the basket to keep the defense honest and make the right pass, life could get downright pleasant.

I hope Andre continues to Drive to the basket like he did today, because together with Sulaiman it gives us two power drivers as opposed to Cook who relies on more finesses on his drives. I think it adds another dimension to our offence.

LBF
01-07-2014, 09:40 PM
It's amazing how often jp and rh lose track of their man. I think k's help defense confuses them. Hopefully they will pick it up by mid February. Also, we need a shot blocking threat in the middle if we are going to overplay on the perimeter. I thought this was a sluggish and poorly played game all around. GT was horrendous in the second half. They stopped taking the ball to the rim and it seemed like they missed so many open looks. This was more them playing badly to us playing tight D. This was a very lackluster game but a win is a win. I hope they start to play to their ability.

bedeviled
01-07-2014, 10:00 PM
I don't see how Quinn's could be -9 in the first halfI should be replying to my own perplexed post, but I'm too embarrassed. Here is how Quinn had a -9 +/- in the first half.
According to goduke.com, he played the following segments (parsed by score):
0-0 to 12-12. Since it is still tied, there is no net +/- for this segment.
16-12 to 18-16. Here, he got -2 because GT scored 4, while we only scored 2.
22-20 to 34-33. Here, there's an additional -1 because GT scored 13, while we only scored 12.
So, the point differential during Quinn's participation in the first half was -3.
But, as dawned on me later, the +/- calculation is based on 100 possessions. People calculate possession with slightly different coefficients, but we basically had ~32 possessions in the first half. So, his calculated +/- ended up to be -9.

kAzE
01-07-2014, 10:19 PM
One of the best plays of the night to my eyes came at the 4:24 mark of the second half when Amile slipped his screen and rolled to the basket and Andre hit him with a pass thrown over the reach of their big guy Miller.

Why don't we do that play, say, eight times a game? For example, have Jabari slip his screen and hit him as he rolls to the rim. Or Amile, or MP3. It's a way to attack the paint and get our bigs involved, maybe get fouls on their big guys.

We need to be stronger in bread-and-butter plays off screens so we have something to go to when the threes aren't falling beyond Jabari iso on his man or Quinn or Sheed going one-on-the-other-team to the rim.

We do run that play, probably way more than 8 times a game. That play happened because Jefferson's man completely left him to double Dawkins at the top of the key. Pick and rolls never happen the same way over and over again, that's why you need your ball handler to be a good decision maker when you run P&R. Dawkins made the right play, and it was an easy pass, because the double team came late and he was able to jump up and pass over the top. Point is, the screener is usually not going to be that open. I agree that we should try to do more P&R with Jabari and Amile though, especially Jabari, but he seems to prefer to get the ball at the top or on the wing and play 1 on 1.

We run lots of screens, they are just usually defended much better than that play, and up until this particular game, Hairston was the main guy setting those screens, and he's not exactly the master of catching and finishing.

OldSchool
01-07-2014, 10:39 PM
We do run that play, probably way more than 8 times a game.

When I say run that play, I mean actually trying to hit the big with a pass.

Among the things that impresses me about Jabari is his hands. He has extraordinarily good hands for a big. One can see that in tonight's game in the way he finished an and-one right through an attempted block at the rim. You can see it in how he is so good with picking up loose balls. And grabbing lobs out of the air and finishing.

Since we have a big with such good hands, I think he will be able to grab those passes as he is moving and cutting. Let's reward him when he sets a good screen and makes a strong cut to the rim.

kAzE
01-07-2014, 11:35 PM
When I say run that play, I mean actually trying to hit the big with a pass.

Among the things that impresses me about Jabari is his hands. He has extraordinarily good hands for a big. One can see that in tonight's game in the way he finished an and-one right through an attempted block at the rim. You can see it in how he is so good with picking up loose balls. And grabbing lobs out of the air and finishing.

Since we have a big with such good hands, I think he will be able to grab those passes as he is moving and cutting. Let's reward him when he sets a good screen and makes a strong cut to the rim.

Catching the ball isn't the problem. Delivering the ball is the hard part. Successfully passing off the pick and roll to a cutting screener isn't always easy. Many times, the screener doesn't have a clear path to the rim, and most times, he won't be open. If you play basketball, try to set up a screen and roll with your buddies, you'll understand why it's so difficult to pull off successfully. Even when the opportunity presents itself, it takes a really smart player with good vision, instincts, and passing ability to make good entry passes consistently. Again, they decided to completely leave Jefferson to double Dawkins 22 feet from the basket, which was obviously a terrible decision, and the wrong one. Dawkins just made the easy read and did what he was supposed to do. That's not going to happen most of the time.

Kedsy
01-07-2014, 11:54 PM
I thought Andre played a really good game. He continues to lead the ACC in oRating, and is currently 12th in the nation.

Amile's rebounding percentages continue to rise. He's currently 3rd in the ACC in both offensive rebounding percentage and defensive rebounding percentage, and he's in the top 35 in the country in both categories. Imagine how good his numbers would be if he'd gotten more than 2 rebounds combined in our first two games.

Duke's defensive rebounding percentage rose to #53 in the country (unadjusted). To put that number in perspective, here's our national rank in unadjusted defensive rebounding percentage in selected past seasons:

2013: #194
2010: #174
2006: #309
2004: #291
2001: #249
1999: #155

I don't know why people continue to talk about defensive rebounding as if it's one of our biggest weaknesses this season.


Good to have Sheed back.

Actually, I was pretty disappointed in Rasheed's defense in this game. He got beat on the dribble consistently and on top of that lost his man several times. His offense was decent, but overall I think he still has a ways to come.



- Miller scored at will for the most part


Well, he did while Jabari guarded him. I counted four or five times when Miller scored on Jabari primarily because Jabari was out of position at the time Miller caught the ball. That's 4 or 5 out of 7 made baskets. I thought Amile did a really good job on Miller.


- Thornton and Hairston's minutes went down the drain

I know a lot of people have been calling for this, and some predicted it would happen this game, but I'm very surprised at Tyler getting just 6 minutes and Josh getting just 4. FWIW, in their brief time I thought Tyler didn't play so well but I was somewhat impressed with Josh's defensive positioning and communication.

Even after this game, I'll be surprised if these two play so little. I guess time will tell.


My only concern with those stats are that only 6 guys got the majority of the minutes. I'm very happy we won, and did so in nice fashion in the 2nd half. But I sincerely hope we don't dip down to primarily 6 guys the rest of the way. I think we'll be seriously gassed come March if that continues.

Who had January 7 in the pool?

OldSchool
01-08-2014, 12:27 AM
Catching the ball isn't the problem. Delivering the ball is the hard part. Successfully passing off the pick and roll to a cutting screener isn't always easy. Many times, the screener doesn't have a clear path to the rim, and most times, he won't be open. If you play basketball, try to set up a screen and roll with your buddies, you'll understand why it's so difficult to pull off successfully. Even when the opportunity presents itself, it takes a really smart player with good vision, instincts, and passing ability to make good entry passes consistently. Again, they decided to completely leave Jefferson to double Dawkins 22 feet from the basket, which was obviously a terrible decision, and the wrong one. Dawkins just made the easy read and did what he was supposed to do. That's not going to happen most of the time.

If you are measuring what elite players at a big time program like Duke are capable of doing by what you and your buddies are able to do in your pickup games, you're not even in the conversation (unless you happen to be Kyrie Irving or Mason Plumlee pretending to post from China).

Yes, obviously, the pass is the hard part, and if you read my posts above you would have seen where I wrote "it's a hard pass to make." but I've seen this for years, our guards looking off open cutting bigs even when we had talented guys like Mason wide open on a roll. In my opinion, it's one of those few recurring weakness at Duke, like punishing a full-court press.

No doubt it is correct, as CDu noted above, that given how good our offense has been with what the coaches have installed, working the screen-and-roll has not been a point of emphasis. And I appreciate the point that our two best players are playing their first season of games in the system. Nevertheless, I remain concerned that it would behoove us to improve our screening and passing to make us less dependent against a strong defensive team on just hitting threes or having Jabari take his man or sending Sheed into the lane with his head down.

JPtheGame
01-08-2014, 12:53 AM
Great to see the change in the starting lineup and distribution of minutes. Love TT and JH and the contribution they have made over the years but Duke is better when you actually have to guard all five of their players.

Bob Green
01-08-2014, 04:07 AM
What I see with our offense is it is all about ball movement. When two or three passes are executed, and when we dish and drive, good things happen. This analysis is simplistic but true.

dukelifer
01-08-2014, 05:50 AM
What I see with our offense is it is all about ball movement. When two or three passes are executed, and when we dish and drive, good things happen. This analysis is simplistic but true.

I see it - you see it- why don't the players see it. A simple game.

DukeDevil
01-08-2014, 06:17 AM
I was really happy with the win and the 2nd half performance...at least offensively. On the defense, there were still a ton of times where GT was wide open in the middle, and the rotation from our players seemed to come extremely late. You could see it in the way they would scramble to the open man/missed rotation, like nobody communicated it to them and they just saw it. I worry that a team with a well executing PG could have easily torched us for another 15-20 points with those looks. I love watching this team, and I believe they're going to make a statement down the conference and into the tournament...but it can be SO frustrating as well. It feels like they can either shine or fall apart at any given moment.

As for Jabari, the biggest thing I've noticed in his "slump" is that, whereas before he always seemed to be taking his time, never rushing his shots or moves...it feels like he's pushing too hard to make something happen. I know someone said this earlier in the thread, but I felt it deserved repeating. His skill is how he lets the game come to him. I'll note: I've always hated that saying, never thought it made sense before...but it makes sense with Parker. To paraphrase Bruce Lee: His game is like water...you put him on the perimeter he BECOMES the perimeter. You put him in the mid range he BECOMES the mid range. You put him in the post he BECOMES the post. (well that last one needs some work).

CDu
01-08-2014, 07:15 AM
When I say run that play, I mean actually trying to hit the big with a pass.

Among the things that impresses me about Jabari is his hands. He has extraordinarily good hands for a big. One can see that in tonight's game in the way he finished an and-one right through an attempted block at the rim. You can see it in how he is so good with picking up loose balls. And grabbing lobs out of the air and finishing.

Since we have a big with such good hands, I think he will be able to grab those passes as he is moving and cutting. Let's reward him when he sets a good screen and makes a strong cut to the rim.


Catching the ball isn't the problem. Delivering the ball is the hard part. Successfully passing off the pick and roll to a cutting screener isn't always easy. Many times, the screener doesn't have a clear path to the rim, and most times, he won't be open. If you play basketball, try to set up a screen and roll with your buddies, you'll understand why it's so difficult to pull off successfully. Even when the opportunity presents itself, it takes a really smart player with good vision, instincts, and passing ability to make good entry passes consistently. Again, they decided to completely leave Jefferson to double Dawkins 22 feet from the basket, which was obviously a terrible decision, and the wrong one. Dawkins just made the easy read and did what he was supposed to do. That's not going to happen most of the time.

Bingo. The hard part is the pass. If the screener is wide open, that means two guys are potentially harassing the ballhandler. That can make it quite tough to deliver a good pass.

Now, when the defense leaves the screener AND doesn't get tight on the ball (like the Dawkins/Jefferson play) then the pass is easy and the preferred play.

But when the pass isn't easy, I much prefer that we not try to force it. Instead, we just continue to run our top-5 in the nation offense.

CDu
01-08-2014, 07:48 AM
Well, he did while Jabari guarded him. I counted four or five times when Miller scored on Jabari primarily because Jabari was out of position at the time Miller caught the ball. That's 4 or 5 out of 7 made baskets. I thought Amile did a really good job on Miller.

I agreed with your entire post except for this part. Miller shot 7-11 from the field. His only misses were on 15 foot jumpers and a missed dunk. The only reason he didn't score more was because Tech inexplicably didn't feed him the ball more. I wouldn't give Jefferson credit for a "really good" job on Miller. More accurately, I'd say that he didn't do an atrocious job on Miller and was helped a LOT by Tech's poor perimeter play.

hillsborodevil
01-08-2014, 08:00 AM
Hood’s experience is really paying off big time. I believe he is the best player on the team.

Dawkin’s dribble penetration is a blessing. Dawkins can hit FT’s better than Hansbrough. :^)

Jabari is getting hammered inside posting up at the 5 spot on defensive switches. I agree Jabari is in a slump but I also believe other teams are realizing how to play Duke. A true 6’8” freshman with great offensive power should not be guarding opposing bigs with experience. Not having or playing a true low post guy will make for a long and grueling season. Below average centers appear as “world beaters” when playing Duke.

Hey, on the bright-side Coach K keeps Jabari under the basket that he is hammered to the point his offense takes a beating and he has to stay another year before jumping to the NBA. Maybe we get to see Jabari and Okafor play together next season.

I also agree with previous posts that the pick n roll is not being executed enough. This is a new team from last year but I recall a ton of pick n rolls for MP2 with Kelly and Curry feeding Mason – not Cook or Sheed.

CDu
01-08-2014, 08:29 AM
I do feel a bit bad for Georgia Tech. They have a solid starting backcourt of Golden and Georges-Hunt. They have a scrappy SF in Morris. They have a very tough C in Miller. But the loss of Carter exploits a GAPING hole in their lineup at PF.

Last night really exploited this. Holsey (originally their backup PF/C) is very limited. In a backup role, that's not so bad. But Tech is now counting on him to give them 25-30 productive minutes each night, and that's just not going to happen. Last night, he got in foul trouble and played just 18 mpg. And while on the surface that may not seem huge, it meant that Tech had to essentially go small for most of the game. They played their third-string PF (a 6'8", 185 lb kid who makes Jefferson look like Hercules) and they played Morris (a G-F) at PF for most of the night.

With Carter, they had a menacing interior presence with two widebody rebounding machines and two post scoring threats, which helps mask a lack of depth and talent on the perimeter. Without him, their lack of depth/talent on the perimeter gets really exploited.

All that said, I'm not THAT sad about it. :) It certainly made our lives easier in that we just had to worry about Miller (who is the less gifted scorer of the two) inside.

azzefkram
01-08-2014, 08:33 AM
I agreed with your entire post except for this part. Miller shot 7-11 from the field. His only misses were on 15 foot jumpers and a missed dunk. The only reason he didn't score more was because Tech inexplicably didn't feed him the ball more. I wouldn't give Jefferson credit for a "really good" job on Miller. More accurately, I'd say that he didn't do an atrocious job on Miller and was helped a LOT by Tech's poor perimeter play.

I'd split the difference between you and Kedsy. 2 of those makes occurred when Amile was playing good D. Miller just made a pair of tough shots. GT should have tried to feed him more but I think our improved D in the second half made it harder to do then it was in the first half.

JBDuke
01-08-2014, 08:40 AM
I agreed with your entire post except for this part. Miller shot 7-11 from the field. His only misses were on 15 foot jumpers and a missed dunk. The only reason he didn't score more was because Tech inexplicably didn't feed him the ball more. I wouldn't give Jefferson credit for a "really good" job on Miller. More accurately, I'd say that he didn't do an atrocious job on Miller and was helped a LOT by Tech's poor perimeter play.


I'd split the difference between you and Kedsy. 2 of those makes occurred when Amile was playing good D. Miller just made a pair of tough shots. GT should have tried to feed him more but I think our improved D in the second half made it harder to do then it was in the first half.

I think Miller was just "on" last night, perhaps abetted by some pretty woeful defense from Jabari early on that let him get a hot start. By the time Amile was playing him more, and playing some pretty good D in spots, IMO, Miller was making tough shots as well.

flyingdutchdevil
01-08-2014, 08:43 AM
1) Although very surprised to see this new talented starting 5, I can't say that I'm not too upset. We knew the changing of the guards (and forward) was inevitably coming. What did surprise me is the minutes played. IMO, I don't think that this will be the norm. I think Coach K wanted to see what our most talented 6 players could do on the floor together against an ACC team (a bad ACC team, no less).

2) Rodney Hood has a beautiful, beautiful jump shot. He is absolutely tearing it up the last two games, which is great, because it kept us in the game against ND and blew the GT game wide open. He is the best second banana that Duke has had since Shelden Williams!

3) Speaking of Rodney, he is relatively emotionless when he hits a three. I rewatched the second half today and saw that he just goes about his business after hitting a three (on the other hand, Sulaimon and Cook react a little after they hit a three). However, when Rodney dunks, it's a completely different story. Overreactions, yelling, hanging on the rim, technical fouls, you name it. I always look for the "Rodney Reaction". It's really entertaining.

4) Ummm...when did Dawkins learn to penetrate like that? We've seen Andre drive on a few occasions, but never with the consistency and effectiveness of last night. If this skillset is here to stay, this gives us 5 players who can take it to the hole (in order of effectiveness): Hood, Jabari, Cook, Sulaimon, Dawkins. Wow. Wow.

5) Defense, especially with Amile, Sulaimon, and Cook playing better D, was better. Jabari still can't guard the post. Hood was better, though, and I hope to see this team continue to improve on this front.

6) In the first, what, 3 games, we just weren't a good rebounding team. Now? Rebounding has turned into an asset. With Amile, Jabari, and team rebounding by the guards (including Cook!), rebounding is a huge asset. Unfortunately, with us packing the lanes, it doesn't lead to many fast break opportunities. But I'd rather get a rebound than a fast break opportunity any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

7) I will be looking at the rotation in the next few games. Only 6 players really played (the seventh player got only 6 minutes). Not saying it's good or bad, but I'd be very surprised if our rotation wasn't a solid 8 players. If we do stick to primarily a 6 man rotation with this team, we can come to the conclusion that Coach K likes tight, short rotations regardless of who is on his team.

Gthoma2a
01-08-2014, 09:22 AM
Rodney is looking clutch in ACC play. Dre helped get us going, too. Jabari will find himself again. He's too good not to. Rasheed looks to be hitting his stride at the right time, as well. I am very happy to see that.

The duality of the halves was a great illustration of this team. We could defend, but we just don't at times. When we do, we are a very good team, but when we don't we are on par with lesser teams like GT.

Kedsy
01-08-2014, 09:44 AM
I agreed with your entire post except for this part. Miller shot 7-11 from the field. His only misses were on 15 foot jumpers and a missed dunk. The only reason he didn't score more was because Tech inexplicably didn't feed him the ball more. I wouldn't give Jefferson credit for a "really good" job on Miller. More accurately, I'd say that he didn't do an atrocious job on Miller and was helped a LOT by Tech's poor perimeter play.

After watching Miller torch Jabari for 3 or 4 baskets in the first half, I specifically kept an eye on Miller when Ga Tech had the ball. Amile stayed with him, bodied him, bumped him, forced him a step or two further from the basket. That's good interior D, as long as you don't get called for a foul. He may not have made Miller miss many shots, but he was certainly a factor in Miller not getting so many. And also a factor in him taking more low-percentage 15 foot jumpers. Miller looked frustrated in the 2nd half, and not just because he wasn't getting the ball.

Perhaps if Georgia Tech had force fed Miller in the post it would have been tougher for Amile, but in my opinion he totally slowed him down and, as I said before, played pretty good D on him.


Hood’s experience is really paying off big time. I believe he is the best player on the team.

Jabari is still the best player on the team, at least on offense. A couple slow games don't change that.


Not having or playing a true low post guy will make for a long and grueling season. Below average centers appear as “world beaters” when playing Duke.

In 2006, when Shelden Williams roamed the paint for Duke, opposing centers routinely led their team in scoring. Guys like Marco Killingsworth, Cedric Simmons, and Al Thornton had career games against us, and even guys like Coleman Collins and Eric Williams seemed able to score at will against us.

And yet Shelden Williams won National Defensive Player of the Year that season. The problem obviously wasn't him. It was our perimeter not stopping the drive. Same as this year.

Billy Dat
01-08-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: the Offense
The free throw disparity was extremely important as we had little offensive flow throughout the entire game. I think the various posts about our offense are telling because it was obvious, as many have pointed out, that the ball wasn't moving much. I think these guys are still figuring out their roles as the line-ups continue to be pretty fluid and opposing defenses have had success against Jabari recently. This post game quote from Jabari (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/92196/parker-needs-room-to-grow) is instructive,

"Parker said he’s noticed teams defending him more effectively than they did earlier in the season. Scouting reports have thoroughly exposed his go-to moves.
'They’re doing different stuff, but that’s where I’ve got to work on my counters and find other ways to score the ball instead of the first initial part of the attack,' Parker said."

Earlier on, with Jabari rolling and commanding an instant double team, guys were open and he was finding them. When he's not on the floor, or when he struggling, we seem to struggle to get shots within a continuity, what I have heard K refer to as "connecting plays". The Amile screen and roll that has been referenced in this thread was a good example, but I think most of that stuff comes as a result of read-and-react rather than the bench calling something set. However, as others have referenced, K gave credit to Wojo (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209362094) for the offensive wrinkles that sprung Rodney for that flurry of 4th quarter 3s,

"It’s Wojo’s [Steve Wojciechowski] scout, so he made a great suggestion toward the last eight minutes, to go into a set that incorporated Rodney [Hood] in a ball screen. And then popping out. It was a great suggestion and it turned out four three’s. He had four three’s from that."

It's no small feat that Dawkins is getting better, and is looking for, his drive, and that Rasheed's drives are getting slightly better in terms of less head-down-and-pray and more under-control. Andre shot 6 free throws in 25 minutes.

Right now, our offense has a next-man-up quality in that Jabari, Rodney and Quinn can all put up 20+, but they don't quite play off each other very well. When the first read fails, we seem to take a long time getting back into our stuff, almost like everyone has to "reset", and that resulted in a ton of rushed shots at the end of the shot clock. That tells me our offense still has upside.

Other smaller observations:
-Rasheed's crazy off-balance 3, as the shot clock expired, right at the start of the game, was really cool.
-The Quinn Cook open court blindingly tight and quick spin-lay-up is becoming a signature.
-Cook hit two really big second half shots. The 3 from the wing, kind of on the break, a minute and a half in to the second half pushed the lead to six and helped us get some separation. With 5 minutes to go, they had knocked our 16 point lead to 11 very quickly and seemed poised for a final push when he nailed a nifty step back jumper over Miller that answered the mini charge and shut them up for good.
-The officiating seems like it has gone nearly all the way back to last year. There was maybe one ticky tack foul called on the perimeter and, in general, I thought the refs were pretty much "letting them play".
-I got a hold of Marshall Plumlee's LOI and he somehow snuck in there that during the 2013/14 season, K is required to play him for at least two minutes of the first half of every game.

roywhite
01-08-2014, 09:52 AM
After watching Miller torch Jabari for 3 or 4 baskets in the first half, I specifically kept an eye on Miller when Ga Tech had the ball. Amile stayed with him, bodied him, bumped him, forced him a step or two further from the basket. That's good interior D, as long as you don't get called for a foul. He may not have made Miller miss many shots, but he was certainly a factor in Miller not getting so many. And also a factor in him taking more low-percentage 15 foot jumpers. Miller looked frustrated in the 2nd half, and not just because he wasn't getting the ball.

Perhaps if Georgia Tech had force fed Miller in the post it would have been tougher for Amile, but in my opinion he totally slowed him down and, as I said before, played pretty good D on him.



Amile's development is one of the most positive elements currently for Duke IMO. He is rebounding, playing more effectively on defense, scoring inside, and even looks more comfortable at the free throw line. He's not bulky or as big as some of the guys he'll face, but he's definitely finding his role.

wilko
01-08-2014, 09:54 AM
No need for me to badmouth and nit pick a win.

We have some issues to overcome.
Some nites they are less obvious than others. Clearly there is much to like and much work to be done.

Like MP3's energy. Hes giving good spot relief. I think his minutes will increase with his FT%.
Like seeing glimpses of the real Sheed again. He got some key buckets in critical spots.
Andre is a monster off the bench. Seems to be having fun out there and enjoying things. Good for him.
Hood is as advertised. When I think what he could have done for LAST yrs squad...
Parker will adjust and play thru challenges in front of him. Hes too skilled to wither.

FerryFor50
01-08-2014, 09:56 AM
Like MP3's energy. Hes giving good spot relief. I think his minutes will increase with his FT%.
.

Hitting at least one would be a nice start... :)

Duke76
01-08-2014, 09:59 AM
I could not agree more with this.


why are we not running more set plays…to me Quinn needs to be calling a play out every time we have a possession unless it is a fast break..
this team needs order and structure to be successful, especially when Jabari is not out there, imo

Lar77
01-08-2014, 10:03 AM
Some observations:

1. Amile had a great game, especially in the second half (for the question earlier - the scoreboard showed 10 rebounds)
2. Rodney has a beautiful touch on the outside, especially when we drive and pass out.
3. Dre's "newly found" driving ability was very effective.
4. GT couldn't miss in the first half and was woeful in the second half - part of that was improved defense on the perimeter.
5. Regarding perimeter defense, can we stay in front of a man? We may be too focused on making the "big" play and losing focus on our surroundings.
6. Jabari is human. Remember everything that was said about Rasheed at this time last year.
7. Speaking of Rasheed, he is coming back to what has been expected.
8. Not to get on Quinn, but our offense at times in the first half was lax with him dribbling around with no apparent purpose. Did Rasheed's off-balance 3 make Sportscenter?
9. Watched the end of State at ND - they are going to be a challenge for us next week.

vick
01-08-2014, 10:05 AM
In 2006, when Shelden Williams roamed the paint for Duke, opposing centers routinely led their team in scoring. Guys like Marco Killingsworth, Cedric Simmons, and Al Thornton had career games against us, and even guys like Coleman Collins and Eric Williams seemed able to score at will against us.

And yet Shelden Williams won National Defensive Player of the Year that season. The problem obviously wasn't him. It was our perimeter not stopping the drive. Same as this year.

I'd argue it wasn't even that big of a "problem." In Shelden's two NDPOY years, our opponents shot by far fewer three pointers, as a percentage of their field goal attempts, than any other team in the country*, and they made a poor percentage of the ones they took. That, to me, is indicative of a general strategy of sticking to players on the perimeter far more aggressively than most teams, which lets people score on your center. Even with all those big games, a defense that started two freshmen, one of whom was Paulus, and Redick, who was underrated as a defender but not exactly Stacey Augmon out there, managed to be #18 in Pomeroy defense. Point is (and I think you agree with me here), looking at who scores on whom is a terrible way of judging players' defensive abilities.

* It's a really remarkable difference--the gap between Duke and the #2 team in 2006 on this metric was the same as the gap between #2 and #47!

Gthoma2a
01-08-2014, 10:07 AM
Hitting at least one would be a nice start... :)

It's coming. Although, we may need to tweak his form a little.

3783

roywhite
01-08-2014, 10:11 AM
Two games in a row where the score at a point in the 2nd half was Duke 60 and Opponent 50; certainly different outcomes from that point

Factors in the different outcome?
Better defense, better energy, better rebounding

Clay Feet POF
01-08-2014, 10:13 AM
Paging Dr Tom Amberry!

Kfanarmy
01-08-2014, 10:16 AM
And part of the reason is that the quality of both the passers and the finishers is MUCH better in the NBA.

It is a great play. But it takes tremendous timing on both players' part. And given that our offense is REALLY good already, I support the hesitance to throw that pass unless it is very open.

I think the biggest issue here is commitment to interior play. Perhaps the team has become so perimeter oriented that they just aren't practicing enough on set plays to/in the paint, resulting in lack of precision and confidence.

Gthoma2a
01-08-2014, 10:17 AM
Two games in a row where the score at a point in the 2nd half was Duke 60 and Opponent 50; certainly different outcomes from that point

Factors in the different outcome?
Better defense, better energy, better rebounding

Sounds like a good pizza. Papa Mike's.

DukeDevil
01-08-2014, 10:19 AM
On a separate note....I'm loving Dawkins' photobombing cameos in all the dukeblueplanet "top plays" interviews...makes me laugh out loud every single time!

FerryFor50
01-08-2014, 10:19 AM
Two games in a row where the score at a point in the 2nd half was Duke 60 and Opponent 50; certainly different outcomes from that point

Factors in the different outcome?
Better defense, better energy, better rebounding

Also, hitting shots. That was key.

wilko
01-08-2014, 10:20 AM
Hitting at least one would be a nice start... :)

Ever hopeful (see! keeping it positive!)

Kedsy
01-08-2014, 10:22 AM
I'd argue it wasn't even that big of a "problem." In Shelden's two NDPOY years, our opponents shot by far fewer three pointers, as a percentage of their field goal attempts, than any other team in the country*, and they made a poor percentage of the ones they took. That, to me, is indicative of a general strategy of sticking to players on the perimeter far more aggressively than most teams, which lets people score on your center. Even with all those big games, a defense that started two freshmen, one of whom was Paulus, and Redick, who was underrated as a defender but not exactly Stacey Augmon out there, managed to be #18 in Pomeroy defense. Point is (and I think you agree with me here), looking at who scores on whom is a terrible way of judging players' defensive abilities.

* It's a really remarkable difference--the gap between Duke and the #2 team in 2006 on this metric was the same as the gap between #2 and #47!

Yes, I do agree. Another example would be in 2010, where in our losses Greg Monroe, Jon Leuer, Gani Lawal, and Tracy Smith all punished us scoring-wise. Doesn't mean our centers defended poorly (although my recollection of at least 3 of those 4 games is our whole team defended poorly).

I also acknowledge some people's argument that part of our perimeter defensive issues come from our players attempting to compensate for a lack of size inside. But not entirely. I apologize for the overused metaphor, but our players are still defending as fingers rather than the fist. If we can fix that, and our perimeter guys can stay in front of their men (on ball) and not lose them to backdoor cuts (off ball), then my guess is our interior defense will be just fine.

FerryFor50
01-08-2014, 10:25 AM
Yes, I do agree. Another example would be in 2010, where in our losses Greg Monroe, Jon Leuer, Gani Lawal, and Tracy Smith all punished us scoring-wise. Doesn't mean our centers defended poorly (although my recollection of at least 3 of those 4 games is our whole team defended poorly).

I also acknowledge some people's argument that part of our perimeter defensive issues come from our players attempting to compensate for a lack of size inside. But not entirely. I apologize for the overused metaphor, but our players are still defending as fingers rather than the fist. If we can fix that, and our perimeter guys can stay in front of their men (on ball) and not lose them to backdoor cuts (off ball), then my guess is our interior defense will be just fine.

I think some of the interior defense (and perceived defensive rebounding issues) also come from over-commits by Jabari and others to try to block a shot. They leave their man entirely, abandon rebounding position and totally sell out to challenge the shot. More often than not, the shot either goes in, or the board goes directly to the man they left. More discipline is needed on the inside and these guys need to understand that no one on the team is an elite enough shot blocker to keep taking that risk.

noworries
01-08-2014, 10:27 AM
Paging Dr Tom Amberry!

I've read his book...pretty interesting from what I remember, but it's been some time. On that note, great FT shooting tonight.

daveyro
01-08-2014, 10:31 AM
I think the biggest issue here is commitment to interior play. Perhaps the team has become so perimeter oriented that they just aren't practicing enough on set plays to/in the paint, resulting in lack of precision and confidence.

As a 35 year fan, albeit with a series of flames for my contrarion view, we have always been a perimeter oriented team except when we had real big men like Boozer, Brand, Laettner, Gminski. But there are things we can do in the interior even small, that I don't see - hard boxing out to get rebounds, interior passing, offensive rebounds that get sent out to the guards (a la Zoubs) instead of forcing up against three defenders.

Duvall
01-08-2014, 10:35 AM
As a 35 year fan, albeit with a series of flames for my contrarion view, we have always been a perimeter oriented team except when we had real big men like Boozer, Brand, Laettner, Gminski.

Add Ferry to the mix and you've got what, 15 seasons out of 36? That's almost half the time.

CDu
01-08-2014, 10:42 AM
Two games in a row where the score at a point in the 2nd half was Duke 60 and Opponent 50; certainly different outcomes from that point

Factors in the different outcome?
Better defense, better energy, better rebounding


Also, hitting shots. That was key.

Also, Georgia Tech is just MUCH less talented offensively than Notre Dame.

The 60-50 score in the Notre Dame game was achieved because both teams were playing great offense and we were just slightly more effective. The end result in the Notre Dame game was because Notre Dame continued to score well and we didn't.

The 60-50 score in the Georgia Tech game was achieved in part because we struggled a bit offensively while Georgia Tech was getting lots of scores. The end result in that game was because water finally found its level on both ends of the floor (Tech realized they stink offensively and we started hitting shots).

We did play better defense in the Tech game, but we did so against a MUCH less capable offense.

FerryFor50
01-08-2014, 10:43 AM
Also, Georgia Tech is just MUCH less talented offensively than Notre Dame.

The 60-50 score in the Notre Dame game was achieved because both teams were playing great offense and we were just slightly more effective. The end result in the Notre Dame game was because Notre Dame continued to score well and we didn't.

The 60-50 score in the Georgia Tech game was achieved in part because we struggled a bit offensively while Georgia Tech was getting lots of scores. The end result in that game was because water finally found its level on both ends of the floor (Tech realized they stink offensively and we started hitting shots).

We did play better defense in the Tech game, but we did so against a MUCH less capable offense.

Part of the better defense, as you mentioned, was GT going away from what was working - pounding it inside. Perhaps that was Duke denying that, but I think it was more of GT panicking and jacking up contested jumpers. Much like Duke did in the waning minutes against ND...

CDu
01-08-2014, 10:44 AM
Add Ferry to the mix and you've got what, 15 seasons out of 36? That's almost half the time.

Throw Parks' junior and senior years and Plumlee's senior year in there and you're right at 50%.

Of course, one might counter that we were actually still a perimeter-oriented team when we had Williams, Brand, Boozer, and Plumlee (and that we perhaps underutilized Brand and Boozer).

wilko
01-08-2014, 10:50 AM
Add Ferry to the mix and you've got what, 15 seasons out of 36? That's almost half the time.

No Love for Parks? ...

CDu
01-08-2014, 10:52 AM
After watching Miller torch Jabari for 3 or 4 baskets in the first half, I specifically kept an eye on Miller when Ga Tech had the ball. Amile stayed with him, bodied him, bumped him, forced him a step or two further from the basket. That's good interior D, as long as you don't get called for a foul. He may not have made Miller miss many shots, but he was certainly a factor in Miller not getting so many. And also a factor in him taking more low-percentage 15 foot jumpers. Miller looked frustrated in the 2nd half, and not just because he wasn't getting the ball.

Perhaps if Georgia Tech had force fed Miller in the post it would have been tougher for Amile, but in my opinion he totally slowed him down and, as I said before, played pretty good D on him.


Part of the better defense, as you mentioned, was GT going away from what was working - pounding it inside. Perhaps that was Duke denying that, but I think it was more of GT panicking and jacking up contested jumpers. Much like Duke did in the waning minutes against ND...

I watched the interior play on Miller pretty closely throughout, and I saw him repeatedly getting good post position but not getting the ball. That occurred regardless of who covered him. Yes, Jefferson battled with Miller, but he didn't prevent Miller from getting position any moreso than Parker. I agree with Ferry that Miller's lack of scoring was much more a result of Tech just running poor offense and not going to the guy who wasn't guarded.

The times that Parker got torched early were not because he didn't battle Miller for post position, but instead because he tried to jump the entry pass (leaving Miller an uncontested layup) or because he bit on the pass fake by Miller (leaving Miller an uncontested hook shot).

I give Jefferson a TON of credit for his work on the boards (preventing Miller from offensive rebounds) and for battling inside. But I don't think he did anything noteworthy in guarding Miller in the post (he did have a nice helpside block on Miller late in the game when Parker was covering Miller). I really do think it was the case of Georgia Tech just failing to consistently identify and exploit the mismatch.

tommy
01-08-2014, 10:55 AM
I think some of the interior defense (and perceived defensive rebounding issues) also come from over-commits by Jabari and others to try to block a shot. They leave their man entirely, abandon rebounding position and totally sell out to challenge the shot. More often than not, the shot either goes in, or the board goes directly to the man they left. More discipline is needed on the inside and these guys need to understand that no one on the team is an elite enough shot blocker to keep taking that risk.

Jabari's problem isn't trying to block shots that he has no real chance to block. Rather, a couple of times per game, he is out of position in guarding the post, tries to compensate by going over the top but he's too late, and the opposing big easily seals him off, and receives the simple pass for the easy layup. It's defensive positioning with him. Georgia Tech barely got any offensive rebounds against us last night. But they did get a number of very high quality interior shots. And Jabari's positioning, as in a number of prior games, was one of the primary causes.

FerryFor50
01-08-2014, 10:57 AM
Jabari's problem isn't trying to block shots that he has no real chance to block. Rather, a couple of times per game, he is out of position in guarding the post, tries to compensate by going over the top but he's too late, and the opposing big easily seals him off, and receives the simple pass for the easy layup. It's defensive positioning with him. Georgia Tech barely got any offensive rebounds against us last night. But they did get a number of very high quality interior shots. And Jabari's positioning, as in a number of prior games, was one of the primary causes.

I've seen him in other games sell out to go for a block and then the other team gets the board.

In the GT game, when he sold out for the block, there was no chance for an offensive board either because the shot went in or it took a Duke-friendly bounce away from the guy he left.

azzefkram
01-08-2014, 11:04 AM
In 2006, when Shelden Williams roamed the paint for Duke, opposing centers routinely led their team in scoring. Guys like Marco Killingsworth, Cedric Simmons, and Al Thornton had career games against us, and even guys like Coleman Collins and Eric Williams seemed able to score at will against us.

And yet Shelden Williams won National Defensive Player of the Year that season. The problem obviously wasn't him. It was our perimeter not stopping the drive. Same as this year.

They are inter-related. Shelden masked a boat load of sins. In 2006, Shelden was 27th in Block% and 39th in DR%. Amile is rebounding better than Shelden (even with his first 2 games which makes it more impressive in my book). What we lack is someone who can erase mistakes. Josh is absolutely dreadful at this. Amile is better but still significantly worse than Shelden (or Marshall for that matter).

As a team in 2006, Duke was 102nd in 2P% and 50th in Block%. Now we are 235th and 253rd respectively.

I agree that it starts on the perimeter. Defensively, which perimeter would you rather have; Quinn, Sheed and Rodney, or Greg, JJ and DeMarcus? I'd take Quinn and Sheed over Greg and JJ. A changing of the forward seems to have occurred (your change of phrase in the other thread was a good one, so I thought I'd steal it). I think it will work out okay if we maybe not change the guard but give them slightly relaxed marching orders. We are elite at guarding the three. Maybe if we dial back the pressure slightly it will help contain the penetration.

Billy Dat
01-08-2014, 11:07 AM
Jabari's problem isn't trying to block shots that he has no real chance to block. Rather, a couple of times per game, he is out of position in guarding the post, tries to compensate by going over the top but he's too late, and the opposing big easily seals him off, and receives the simple pass for the easy layup. It's defensive positioning with him. Georgia Tech barely got any offensive rebounds against us last night. But they did get a number of very high quality interior shots. And Jabari's positioning, as in a number of prior games, was one of the primary causes.

It would be nice if Professor Battier could take a few days off and school the young fella in the art of the ground war (http://www.nba.com/heat/news_recap/dwyane-wade-agent-chaos).

"Wade jumps the lane in anticipation of a pass to Elton Brand, the ball instead finds its way, slowly, to Mayo in the corner. Mayo hits it and the Mavericks go up six with four minutes to play.

“He guessed [Collison] was going to throw it to the top of the key and not the corner and that’s where a gamble bites you in the butt,” Battier said. “Versus being solid, playing it halfway in the middle and then the pass goes and you play the pass.

“In certain situations you can get away with it. Some guys have instincts. Dwyane has instincts. He’s going to make some spectacular plays. He’s going to make some plays where you’re like, ‘D, What are you doing?’”

There’s a philosophical difference here, but it isn’t tension-fueled. Battier’s position on defense is clear:

“I believe in ground wars. I believe in position. I think over time that wins,” Battier said."

Troublemaker
01-08-2014, 11:14 AM
Thoughts:

It was important to have a dominant second half (after playing a very bad first half) to give this team confidence heading into the huge road game at Clemson on Saturday. If we can beat Clemson (and Vegas will probably have that game as a pick'em or Duke -1), then we can hopefully get on a roll and be 6-1 heading into the Hell Week of @Pitt and @Syracuse. Had we sputtered to an 8-10 point win against GaTech, I personally wouldn't have felt good about the Clemson game.
I think Coach K is gaining confidence in the Amile at the 5, Rodney at the 4 smallball lineup. It's been effective at times the past two games, especially this game. I think we'll see more of it when the opportunity presents itself in future games. (Note: I don't like the Jabari at the 5, Rodney at the 4 smallball lineup. Jabari's defense is just not there yet).
Our team leaders are constantly talking to Jabari during this 3-game mini-slump, encouraging him, making sure he stays positive. I love how tight-knit the team appears to be. Jabari will get through this, and he has Rasheed's example from earlier in the season to look to. It got so bad for Sheed that he registered a DNP against Michigan, but now a few games later he's playing 36 minutes against GaTech. Jabari's situation isn't as bad, of course, but seeing Sheed's response to adversity first-hand will help Jabari end this slump quickly, hopefully now.
Did Rodney have a hot hand in the second half? No study will ever convince me that when Rodney shot his last couple of threes, those shots' odds of going in were only equal to Rodney's average shooting percentages.
I still think when facing m2m defense, Amile needs to look to drive the opposing center. Miller played 32 minutes and committed 0 fouls. Against good centers, we need to pressure them with Amile's driving ability; sometimes it will lead to foul trouble for them and a completely different flavor to the game and to their performance.
I wouldn't expect Tyler to ever see so few minutes again. He played poorly and fouled himself out of the game (not technically, but 3 fouls in 6 minutes; Coach K couldn't stick with him). But he'll be back to 15+ mpg in the next game.

jv001
01-08-2014, 11:14 AM
I have just finished reading all the posts and have to admit there are some very good takes on the GT game. There were some really good things to take away from the game. 1. Andre demonstrated an ability to drive to the basket(good handle). I guess he really did work on some things in the summer. This gives Duke another option on offense and should open up shooters as his pass to Amile for a layup demonstrated. 2. Amile continues to amaze me with his rebounding. He played Miller well on defense with physicality. Amile looks to have a good knowledge of the game. 3. Rodney was a terror on offense and really put the game away for us. Great to see Coach K give credit to Wojo for the suggestion. 4. Rasheed continues to get better with another good game. 5. Quinn with 5 assists to 1 turnover was good. Now some not so good things: 1. Quinn at times dribbled way too much and we ended up forcing a shot to beat the clock. Better ball movement will take care of that. 2. Jabari was lost at times trying to guard Miller. I don't care that Quinn said, Jabari played good defense. He did not. 3. Marshall only 2 minutes. Nothing else to say on that. 4. We just didn't play with energy in the 1st half. Too much like the ND game. Coach K seemed to agree in his post game comments. All in all, the good really outweighed the bad and I'm looking for a good effort against Clemson. GoDuke!

roywhite
01-08-2014, 11:15 AM
It would be nice if Professor Battier could take a few days off and school the young fella in the art of the ground war (http://www.nba.com/heat/news_recap/dwyane-wade-agent-chaos).

"Wade jumps the lane in anticipation of a pass to Elton Brand, the ball instead finds its way, slowly, to Mayo in the corner. Mayo hits it and the Mavericks go up six with four minutes to play.

“He guessed [Collison] was going to throw it to the top of the key and not the corner and that’s where a gamble bites you in the butt,” Battier said. “Versus being solid, playing it halfway in the middle and then the pass goes and you play the pass.

“In certain situations you can get away with it. Some guys have instincts. Dwyane has instincts. He’s going to make some spectacular plays. He’s going to make some plays where you’re like, ‘D, What are you doing?’”

There’s a philosophical difference here, but it isn’t tension-fueled. Battier’s position on defense is clear:

“I believe in ground wars. I believe in position. I think over time that wins,” Battier said."

Thanks for posting. Do you suppose there is the slightest chance Battier ends up in college coaching (and I'll assume he'd be on the Duke staff if he did)?

I realize the guy has talent and interest in many areas, but he'd be a terrific leader and coach IMO.

cato
01-08-2014, 11:16 AM
Throw Parks' junior and senior years . . .

Can we leave out Parks' senior year? I've been trying to forget that year ever since it happened.

jv001
01-08-2014, 11:18 AM
Can we leave out Parks' senior year? I've been trying to forget that year ever since it happened.

Yeh, bad year, but not because of the Chief. GoDuke!

flyingdutchdevil
01-08-2014, 11:23 AM
It would be nice if Professor Battier could take a few days off and school the young fella in the art of the ground war (http://www.nba.com/heat/news_recap/dwyane-wade-agent-chaos).

"Wade jumps the lane in anticipation of a pass to Elton Brand, the ball instead finds its way, slowly, to Mayo in the corner. Mayo hits it and the Mavericks go up six with four minutes to play.

“He guessed [Collison] was going to throw it to the top of the key and not the corner and that’s where a gamble bites you in the butt,” Battier said. “Versus being solid, playing it halfway in the middle and then the pass goes and you play the pass.

“In certain situations you can get away with it. Some guys have instincts. Dwyane has instincts. He’s going to make some spectacular plays. He’s going to make some plays where you’re like, ‘D, What are you doing?’”

There’s a philosophical difference here, but it isn’t tension-fueled. Battier’s position on defense is clear:

“I believe in ground wars. I believe in position. I think over time that wins,” Battier said."

Hard to disagree with Battier. As amazing as blocks and steals are (especially for fans), they are high-risk, high-reward. With positional D, you can become a defensive anchor for your team and more effectively prevent the team from scoring.

Would you rather have DeAndre Jordan as your defensive anchor (who is 3rd in the NBA in blocks and 1st in rebounds), or Marc Gasol, who isn't great in either category but provides his team with more efficiency.

Another way of looking at it is Defensive Efficiency. In the 2012-13 season, Indiana had the best defensive efficiency. However, its Defensive Plays Rate (defined as 100*(BLK+STL+CHR) / Opp. Possessions), was 8th. The Clippers were the inverse - best in Defensive Plays Rate and 8th in Defensive Efficiency.

Billy Dat
01-08-2014, 11:23 AM
Thanks for posting. Do you suppose there is the slightest chance Battier ends up in college coaching (and I'll assume he'd be on the Duke staff if he did)?

I realize the guy has talent and interest in many areas, but he'd be a terrific leader and coach IMO.

I honestly don't...he's made too many cracks over the years about not really enjoying spending time with most of his fellow players to think that he'd elect to spend the rest of his life around them. I think a front office job, where he'd get to match wits with fellow quants is a possibility if staying close to the game is something he wants to do.

FerryFor50
01-08-2014, 11:24 AM
Thanks for posting. Do you suppose there is the slightest chance Battier ends up in college coaching (and I'll assume he'd be on the Duke staff if he did)?

I realize the guy has talent and interest in many areas, but he'd be a terrific leader and coach IMO.

Going to be difficult to coach while being president of Earth.

roywhite
01-08-2014, 11:35 AM
Going to be difficult to coach while being president of Earth.

Yeah, I'd like to vote for the guy some day. He's got a lot to offer whether he ends up in business, politics, media, whatever.

I hear what Billy is saying about Shane moving away from the front lines of basketball; was kind of hoping that an association with Duke would appeal to his broad intellectual range. Heck, I could see him as a University President, and what better place than his alma mater at some point.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread -- I recall Battier being on some Duke teams that absolutely blew out some decent Yellow Jacket teams.

flyingdutchdevil
01-08-2014, 11:46 AM
I honestly don't...he's made too many cracks over the years about not really enjoying spending time with most of his fellow players to think that he'd elect to spend the rest of his life around them. I think a front office job, where he'd get to match wits with fellow quants is a possibility if staying close to the game is something he wants to do.

And on top of that, why coach college when you can coach the NBA? Pay is higher, you don't have to recruit, players already know your MO. I guess Jason Kidd is a reason not to coach in the NBA, but I think Battier would take the more conventional approach of digging one's toe in the water (ie become an assistant coach) rather than diving in (player-to-coach in 1 month).

pfrduke
01-08-2014, 12:09 PM
Jabari's problem isn't trying to block shots that he has no real chance to block. Rather, a couple of times per game, he is out of position in guarding the post, tries to compensate by going over the top but he's too late, and the opposing big easily seals him off, and receives the simple pass for the easy layup. It's defensive positioning with him. Georgia Tech barely got any offensive rebounds against us last night. But they did get a number of very high quality interior shots. And Jabari's positioning, as in a number of prior games, was one of the primary causes.

Jabari's additional problem is that he has no intuitive feel for defending screens/two-man action. He seems to almost always make the wrong decision on when and how far to hedge, when to switch, etc. The give and go dunk that Morris got and the wide open sky hook that Miller got both came from Jabari making the wrong decision when put in a two-on-two scenario.

CDu
01-08-2014, 12:35 PM
Jabari's additional problem is that he has no intuitive feel for defending screens/two-man action. He seems to almost always make the wrong decision on when and how far to hedge, when to switch, etc. The give and go dunk that Morris got and the wide open sky hook that Miller got both came from Jabari making the wrong decision when put in a two-on-two scenario.

I agree. It definitely seems like Parker struggles with making the right decisions on defense. Sometimes he does well on the hedge and recover, but sometimes he does it halfway (indecisively?) and allows his man to turn the corner. And sometimes he over-commits on the hedge and is unable to recover to his man.

I think the hook shot play was a fluke though. Tech had Georges-Hunt (their leading scorer) curling around Miller about 15-18 feet from the hoop (with Miller facing away from the basket). I'd have expected the pass there, too, as I'd have never thought Miller would fake the pass and take it to the basket from that far out. That was just a great play by Miller and caught Parker off-guard.

But I agree with the general point that he's frequently making the wrong decisions and sometimes not committing enough to the decisions that he does make correctly.

dukelifer
01-08-2014, 12:36 PM
Also, Georgia Tech is just MUCH less talented offensively than Notre Dame.

The 60-50 score in the Notre Dame game was achieved because both teams were playing great offense and we were just slightly more effective. The end result in the Notre Dame game was because Notre Dame continued to score well and we didn't.

The 60-50 score in the Georgia Tech game was achieved in part because we struggled a bit offensively while Georgia Tech was getting lots of scores. The end result in that game was because water finally found its level on both ends of the floor (Tech realized they stink offensively and we started hitting shots).

We did play better defense in the Tech game, but we did so against a MUCH less capable offense.

yes- which is why last nights game is not an indicator of much. This team needs to continue to fine tune. Clearly K is trying to make adjustments- had a different starting 5- has put Jabari on the bench to watch more. I expect Amile to improve and that could help a bit but he is not a great athlete. This team just is what it is and needs to play very good offense to overcome the mediocre defense. This is why I think they need to find easier ways to score the ball. Andre driving could help- he is bigger and stronger than Sheed or Quinn and will likely get the call. Of all that happened yesterday- that seemed to be the biggest tweak.

roywhite
01-08-2014, 12:47 PM
yes- which is why last nights game is not an indicator of much. This team needs to continue to fine tune. Clearly K is trying to make adjustments- had a different starting 5- has put Jabari on the bench to watch more. I expect Amile to improve and that could help a bit but he is not a great athlete. This team just is what it is and needs to play very good offense to overcome the mediocre defense. This is why I think they need to find easier ways to score the ball. Andre driving could help- he is bigger and stronger than Sheed or Quinn and will likely get the call. Of all that happened yesterday- that seemed to be the biggest tweak.

Well, let's realize just how good this team can be offensively as we see Rasheed, Amile, Andre Dawkins, and now even Rodney Hood step up their games. We've seen what Jabari can do and how Quinn Cook can score and pass. Perhaps too reliant on 3-point shooting (32.3% of points overall come from 3-pt; on the other hand, there are numerous capable 3-pt shooters, and the team is hitting 41.5% from 3-pt YTD), but this team can score, and score in bunches. That can go a long way.

flyingdutchdevil
01-08-2014, 01:04 PM
Well, let's realize just how good this team can be offensively as we see Rasheed, Amile, Andre Dawkins, and now even Rodney Hood step up their games. We've seen what Jabari can do and how Quinn Cook can score and pass. Perhaps too reliant on 3-point shooting (32.3% of points overall come from 3-pt; on the other hand, there are numerous capable 3-pt shooters, and the team is hitting 41.5% from 3-pt YTD), but this team can score, and score in bunches. That can go a long way.

But is that what you want the team to focus on? We're already a top 2 offensive team in the country. Our offense - even if a few players are having off nights - is insanely efficient. Whether it's 3pt, driving, FTs, or mid-range, this team can do it all.

I hope that the offensive gets better without having to work at it in practice. I do hope that Coach K is focusing 95% of his practices and time on the defensive end. Right now, that's the direction that we need to go.

CDu
01-08-2014, 01:13 PM
The other thing I've noticed is that Parker is not alone on handling the ball screen defense poorly. I'm re-watching the game now, and have no seen two plays in the first 10 minutes where Jefferson goofed up a bit on these. Once by not hedging enough and thus getting caught in a switch (he was then beaten to the hoop) and once by defending the wrong side of the screen (allowing the ballhandler to go right to the rim). Similarly, Hood just anticipated a screen that didn't come and left his teammate on an island (Sulaimon fouled so nothing came of the play).

[Note: Parker just did the same thing, resulting in a drive and dish for a 3.]

This is not meant to bash our guys. Defending the high ball screen is probably the hardest thing for a big guy to do, because there are so many things you have to consider and it is easy to end up doing the wrong thing. Just wanted to say that it's not all on Parker here. As a team, we don't appear to handle those situations well. And our guards' struggles with perimeter defense only exacerbate the problem. Parker is clearly the worst of our interior defenders, but I wouldn't characterize any of our guys as notably good at it.

Follow-up note. I've seen several comments about how Plumlee was out of position defensively last night. I've now watched all of Plumlee's minutes, and not once was he out of position on defense. Granted, it was just 2 minutes. But there was nothing in his play last night that suggested he shouldn't be on the floor. It's certainly possible that he's not showing it in practice. But his game play last night was not such evidence.

pfrduke
01-08-2014, 01:45 PM
This is not meant to bash our guys. Defending the high ball screen is probably the hardest thing for a big guy to do, because there are so many things you have to consider and it is easy to end up doing the wrong thing. Just wanted to say that it's not all on Parker here. As a team, we don't appear to handle those situations well. And our guards' struggles with perimeter defense only exacerbate the problem. Parker is clearly the worst of our interior defenders, but I wouldn't characterize any of our guys as notably good at it.

I agree, and I think this more than anything else is to blame for our defensive woes this year. It's so easy to get our defense off balance and scrambling because there are so many places on the floor where an opponent can get someone lost in a pick and roll.

Moreover, Mason and Ryan were both pretty darn good at this - not perfect, but very good. Our defense last season was not left scrambling as much as this year's has been, and I think it starts from difficulty in screen action.

Indoor66
01-08-2014, 01:54 PM
I agree, and I think this more than anything else is to blame for our defensive woes this year. It's so easy to get our defense off balance and scrambling because there are so many places on the floor where an opponent can get someone lost in a pick and roll.

Moreover, Mason and Ryan were both pretty darn good at this - not perfect, but very good. Our defense last season was not left scrambling as much as this year's has been, and I think it starts from difficulty in screen action.

Isn't all of this an expression of our youth and lack of experience? This is a young team - especially the one that played last night. Give Time Time.

pfrduke
01-08-2014, 02:01 PM
Isn't all of this an expression of our youth and lack of experience? This is a young team - especially the one that played last night. Give Time Time.

I certainly don't mean to suggest that it's not a fixable problem. I completely agree that it's fixable, and that as time goes by they should show improvement. To a point, I'm glad this is one of our issues, because coaching can fix it (as opposed to size and speed, which coaching can't do much about). Improvement on pick and roll defense would do wonders for our overall defense. It's not a cure-all, and it wouldn't fix every issue, but it would help immensely.

jv001
01-08-2014, 02:02 PM
Isn't all of this an expression of our youth and lack of experience? This is a young team - especially the one that played last night. Give Time Time.

Absolutely, and think of the 3 great players we lost from last year. Most teams would struggle in the beginning of the season after losing those 3 guys. Duke is not immune just because we are Duke. GoDuke!

Troublemaker
01-08-2014, 02:44 PM
Interesting little tidbit:

Jabari had at least one blocked shot in Duke's first 8 games this season. In the 7 games since, he's had three blocked shots total.

Amile had a total of one blocked shot in Duke's first 8 games this season. In the 7 games since, he's had at least one blocked shot every game.

Would be nice if they could start blocking shots at the same time. Throw in a few from MP3's alligator arms as well.

Luther
01-08-2014, 03:18 PM
Pick up basketball is the only way I have ever played so I do not always see basketball with the structure that some of you on this forum do. I honestly do not understand why Plumlee does not get more time just for his defense. It seems to me he comes in and plays good defense (better than the matador defense). Gets a good block and then gets yanked. What is he doing incorrectly that he can't get more playing time when they are getting killed in the paint?

I could not agree more. I believe he should take most if not all of Josh's minutes.

Luther
01-08-2014, 03:23 PM
I believe Andre should start. Sheed is improving every week but Andre is much more of a threat on the offensive end at the moment. Starting line up should be Jabari, Rodney, Andre, Quinn and Amile.

BD80
01-08-2014, 03:32 PM
Going to be difficult to coach while being president of Earth.

Just Earth?

jv001
01-08-2014, 03:33 PM
I certainly don't mean to suggest that it's not a fixable problem. I completely agree that it's fixable, and that as time goes by they should show improvement. To a point, I'm glad this is one of our issues, because coaching can fix it (as opposed to size and speed, which coaching can't do much about). Improvement on pick and roll defense would do wonders for our overall defense. It's not a cure-all, and it wouldn't fix every issue, but it would help immensely.

I think you are correct it's fixable and I thought we were heading in that direction until ND and last night's first half. So, I guess that focus really comes into play. That and having the desire to excel on defense and not just improve your individual offense. The term Coach K has used over the years "FIST" really fits this team. When they play as individuals, they under perform and when they play as a TEAM, they succeed. I will add improvement in "on the ball defense" needs to improve as well. GoDuke!

Newton_14
01-08-2014, 07:36 PM
wow.....what a second half....THAT is the national championship contender......
Like I said Sunday, keep the faith. Long long conference grind ahead with many ups and downs in their level of play to come. Tonight was a better performance than
Saturday. After a sluggish start, they played excellent in the 2nd half on both sides of the ball


I thought Marshall played well in his 2 minutes. Would have liked to see him a little more, but whatevs.
K has finally convinced me there is some type of master plan at work with MP3. I no longer believes he plays him, and then bases his minutes off of how he is playing in any particular game. I think K is just going to play him a small, set amount of minutes each game for a predetermined amount of games, and then if MP3 keeps improving, K will start to play him more minutes down the stretch. I am not sure if the small minutes are health related/precaution with the foot, or allowing him to get his feet wet for x amount of set minutes with health/foot not being a factor, etc. Either way I am content to sit back and wait to see where K goes with this. I know this thought process is a bit of a reach, but I just don't think the small minutes each game is based on quality of play. He is not out there long enough to get a read on that.


We started slow, then we figured out to move the ball and get to the rim, and we won. I'll take 79-55 ACC games all day.

Yep, bank the win to draw interest, and move to the next opponent.

I thought they had a bit of a hangover in the first half from the ND loss. K shook up the starting lineup to try to spark them, but they just had low energy, especially on defense,Jabari The Kid Parker was continuing to struggle like Saturday, and they just could not get separation. In the 2nd half, they shook off the effects of the hangover, found some energy, and things started to click. The defense was much improved in the 2nd half, they moved the ball and executed better on offense, and the solid rebounding carried over from half 1to half two. Result was the traditional methodical beat down.

While the defense yielded some drives in the first half from guards/wings that resulted in non-post play paint points, it was still much better than ND, and that part of the defense tightened considerably in the 2nd half. The Miller kid went 7-11 for 14 points, but the thing is, it did not hurt us. Unless some post player goes nuts and hits for 25 or something then so what? Stopping the dribble penetration and looks at the rim by the guards/wings is where this team needs to improve to give themselves a chance to compete against the best. We
won the rebounding battle with Amile leading the way despite being way undersized compared to Miller, and our wings did a great job of rebounding by committee. Jabari and Rodney had 6, Rasheed had 5, and Andre had 3. That is their recipe for success in the rebounding department. Amile also had a great block against Miller as well. Quinn did a good job most of the night again, especially in the 2nd half, stopping Golden from breaking down the defense, and Rasheed, Hood, and Andre all did nice jobs defending on the perimeter and stopping or limiting dribble penetration. That's a nice recovery against a team with good size, and athletic ability at the wings in GaTech. K even mixed in some traps just acrosshalfcourt and near the timeline, which was good to see. Hope he throws in more wrinkles like that moving forward.

Jabari worked hard to get it going, and I can't wait until he figures it out and has that explosion game announcing that The Kid is back. Interesting that both Elmore and Adrian Branch mentioned that Jabari has possibly hit that "freshman wall" a bit. That's a good thing if true because he has plenty of time to recover from that, re-energize, and get back to a dominant state. I think he will be fine. Once he gets back to playing like normal that will be a huge shot in the arm.

Meanwhile Hood has stepped up and is doing a great job of leading the way on offense. I thought both he and Andre were key tonight, especially in the secondhalf, for our offense. Andre driving the ball puts a lot of pressure on thedefense. Coaches can't just plan to stop him at the line anymore. They now have to worry about his driving. I loved seeing Hood get hot from 3 in the second half. Rasheed was very solid as well, as was Quinn.

Great team win. On to the next one

ncexnyc
01-08-2014, 08:00 PM
Like my buddy Carlton Ridenhour used to sing, “Don’t Believe the Hype.”

After Saturday’s game many board members had a very doom and gloom view of the team. I doubt many felt much better after the first half of last night’s game as well. Now that second half was something else and suddenly all is well in the world.

I’m pretty sure the majority of us were shocked with our new starting line-up. I guess the question that needs to be asked is what caused it. Was it because Dre and Sheed are finally getting it? Or was it because Coach K. wanted to compensate for Parker’s reduced production as of late?

I saw where someone commented about our great ball movement in the second half. This was basically the same around the horn passing we saw on Saturday; fortunately Rodney buried all of those shots last night.

I’m not sure what game some of you were watching, as Miller had no problem backing Amile down off the dribble for an easy basket. We were extremely fortunate that Tech didn’t try harder to establish Miller in the post, as Amile just doesn’t have the bulk to keep Miller off the blocks.

We aren’t a finished product by any stretch of the imagination. There will be more bumps along the way and people will make more pronouncements of our early flameout come March. However, I firmly believe the talent is there for a very deep run in March. The question is, “Will all the pieces gel in time?”

NYBri
01-08-2014, 08:04 PM
This is why I think they need to find easier ways to score the ball.

The pass that Andre through to Amile on the give and go last night was the first time I had seen anyone hit a cutting picker for a layup in a Duke uniform in at least five years.

I have seen that play work countless times against people in Duke uniforms until the cows come home. Notre Dame did it over and over.

I would love to see it happen more by QC...or whoever plays the point. Seems like a great way score more points.

Kedsy
01-08-2014, 09:15 PM
I’m not sure what game some of you were watching, as Miller had no problem backing Amile down off the dribble for an easy basket. We were extremely fortunate that Tech didn’t try harder to establish Miller in the post, as Amile just doesn’t have the bulk to keep Miller off the blocks.

If you say so. Miller scored 4 baskets while Jabari was guarding him (maybe 5) and I'm pretty sure 1 while Josh was guarding him, which (since he only had 7 baskets and only shot 1 free throw) means he scored at most 2 times against Amile. And at least one of his scores against Amile was a midrange shot while being guarded pretty well. So if you're saying he had no problems backing Amile down one time, then OK. Not sure you can infer anything more than that, though.

Personally, I don't think the fact that Miller didn't get the ball every possession is the only reason he wasn't able to score more against Amile. I think Amile did a pretty good job defending him.

devildeac
01-08-2014, 09:23 PM
Today's Raleigh N&O article about last night's game:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/01/07/3513955/duke-defeats-georgia-tech-79-57.html

Interesting quote from the piece:

"When asked if he was hitting a freshman wall—the college season is longer and more physical than anything the high school or AAU circuits offer—Parker said, "yeah, I think so."

OldSchool
01-09-2014, 01:05 PM
The pass that Andre through to Amile on the give and go last night was the first time I had seen anyone hit a cutting picker for a layup in a Duke uniform in at least five years.

I have seen that play work countless times against people in Duke uniforms until the cows come home. Notre Dame did it over and over.

I would love to see it happen more by QC...or whoever plays the point. Seems like a great way score more points.

Maybe Sheed is the guy that can make it happen. About three minutes into the game Amile set a screen for Sheed and cut to the basket, Sheed hit him with a nice crisp pass and Amile took it right to the rack and got fouled - and almost got it to drop for an and-one.

A little later, on the other side of the basket Quinn looked off Amile on a similar screen-and-cut and then dribbled around a while, and as the shot clock ran out Sheed had to jack up a wild three that actually went in.

wk2109
01-09-2014, 08:05 PM
If you say so. Miller scored 4 baskets while Jabari was guarding him (maybe 5) and I'm pretty sure 1 while Josh was guarding him, which (since he only had 7 baskets and only shot 1 free throw) means he scored at most 2 times against Amile. And at least one of his scores against Amile was a midrange shot while being guarded pretty well. So if you're saying he had no problems backing Amile down one time, then OK. Not sure you can infer anything more than that, though.

Personally, I don't think the fact that Miller didn't get the ball every possession is the only reason he wasn't able to score more against Amile. I think Amile did a pretty good job defending him.

FWIW, the author of this article agrees that Amile did a good job on Miller

http://www.rockymounttelegram.com/blogs/accblog/jeffersons-trash-talk-key-stopping-georgia-techs-miller-2286939


Georgia Tech center Daniel Miller was killing Duke through the first 22 minutes of Tuesday's game. He made his first five field goals and had eight rebounds, by far a game-high at that point.

Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said the Blue Devils were unprepared to defend Miller as the Yellow Jackets were using him, freeing him as more of a mid-range threat than the pure post-up player he normally is. That's when Duke put Amile Jefferson on Miller – a terrible matchup on paper for the skilled Miller, who is 65 pounds heavier and nearly three inches taller.

Miller's final 18:35 speaks to the job Jefferson did: 1-for-5 from the field, one assist, one turnover and zero rebounds.