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luburch
01-07-2014, 01:22 AM
@SportsCenter: UPDATE: Cavs acquire Luol Leng for Andrew Bynum, three future draft picks and the right to swap 2015 first-round picks with Cleveland.

Kyrie and Loul is pretty cool, but I have to think the Bulls got the better end of this deal.

Duvall
01-07-2014, 01:26 AM
@SportsCenter: UPDATE: Cavs acquire Luol Leng for Andrew Bynum, three future draft picks and the right to swap 2015 first-round picks with Cleveland.

Kyrie and Loul is pretty cool, but I have to think the Bulls got the better end of this deal.

Oh, man. Does Cleveland need a new Stepien Rule?

luburch
01-07-2014, 01:41 AM
Unless their goal was to offload Bynum's contract and free up space.

brevity
01-07-2014, 01:43 AM
Here's a link (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10255605/cleveland-cavaliers-agree-trade-andrew-bynum-chicago-bulls-luol-deng).

Regarding the draft picks:


The Cavs will send a first-round pick -- top 10 protected over the next two years -- that the Sacramento Kings owe them to the Bulls, plus two future second-round picks that belong to the Portland Trail Blazers. The Bulls will also have the right to swap 2015 first-round picks with the Cavs as long as the Cavs' pick is outside the lottery.

Cavs owner Dan Gilbert issued this tweet:

Welcome @LuolDeng9 to the Cleveland Cavaliers!

Man, that never gets old.

Duvall
01-07-2014, 01:49 AM
A Cavaliers front office with draft picks is like a mule with a spinning wheel - no one knows how they got it, and danged if they know how to use it.

throatybeard
01-07-2014, 02:30 AM
A Cavaliers front office with draft picks is like a mule with a spinning wheel - no one knows how they got it, and danged if they know how to use it.

The ring came off my pudding can.

kAzE
01-07-2014, 03:31 AM
Am I the only one who thinks giving up up 3 draft picks, no matter how they are protected, is a lot to give up for a 6 month loan on a guy who has played more minutes than anyone in the league the past few years? Deng is a great player, no doubt, but the wear and tear have definitely begun to catch up to him, and he's been a fixture on the injury report since the second half of last season. Granted, they were going to cut Bynum regardless, but still. That Kings pick could turn out to be a decent value. Even if they could resign Deng, I'm not sure he's worth a huge contract (which he is going to ask for, and which he justifiably deserves) at this point in his career.

Look, I love Deng, he's one of the most consistent players in the league, and a wonderful representative of Duke University, but I'm speaking as a fan of the Cavs right now, this deal makes me nervous. Really, any All-Star player on the team who is in a contract year makes a Cavs fan nervous. I just don't think he is going to want to play for a rebuilding team. Why not just cut ties with Bynum, hold on to the picks, and see what you can get in free agency. This year is already pretty much tanking, sit on your lottery pick and see what happens. Why trade for a guy that is going to help your team get to the 7th or 8th seed in the East, where you will undoubtedly get trounced by the Heat or Pacers, and end up with a middling pick in the best draft of the past decade?

We only have enough cap space for 1 more big move before we put all the marbles on the table to keep Kyrie with the team in 2015. If this is it, Kyrie might just decide to take his talents elsewhere. Sigh . . .

AncientPsychicT
01-07-2014, 03:48 AM
Cavs owner Dan Gilbert issued this tweet:

Welcome @LuolDeng9 to the Cleveland Cavaliers!

Hmm, I see you're trying to be 'comical,' so to speak, with the typeface; however, assuming Dan Gilbert knows how to type in bold is a bit of a stretch IMO.

Oh...


Am I the only one who thinks giving up up 3 draft picks, no matter how they are protected, is a lot to give up for a 6 month loan on a guy who has played more minutes than anyone in the league the past few years?

...and to answer your question, I suggest you read the general appraisal of Dan Gilbert's mastery of the art of GM-ing in this thread (or anywhere, really).

greybeard
01-07-2014, 08:52 AM
Perhaps the intensity of style, the coach seems a tad over-amped, is causing all the Chicago breakdowns, Deng's included, and that a saner approach to play might bring back Deng's health. Perhaps also Kyrie likes Deng. If that is so, then so does Cleveland's management, right.

CDu
01-07-2014, 09:04 AM
I think it is a good deal for both sides. The Bulls desperately wanted to get out of the luxury tax, and needed to get something in return for Deng (there was no way they were going to re-sign him this offseason). The Cavs desperately wanted to get rid of Bynum but they also needed to maintain competitiveness this year to convince the fans (and Irving) that they are serious about winning. Chances are that Deng won't re-sign in Cleveland, but you just never know.

For Chicago, the actual picks themselves aren't necessarily terribly interesting. Two late-2nd round picks from Portland and a possible first round pick that could turn into a 2nd round pick or no pick depending on how Sacramento does.

The biggest thing for the Bulls was that they got out of the luxury tax this year and they now have a better shot at a lottery pick in this year's draft (with Deng they were going to make the playoffs in the crappy East).

flyingdutchdevil
01-07-2014, 09:11 AM
I think it is a good deal for both sides. The Bulls desperately wanted to get out of the luxury tax, and needed to get something in return for Deng (there was no way they were going to re-sign him this offseason). The Cavs desperately wanted to get rid of Bynum but they also needed to maintain competitiveness this year to convince the fans (and Irving) that they are serious about winning. Chances are that Deng won't re-sign in Cleveland, but you just never know.

For Chicago, the actual picks themselves aren't necessarily terribly interesting. Two late-2nd round picks from Portland and a possible first round pick that could turn into a 2nd round pick or no pick depending on how Sacramento does.

The biggest thing for the Bulls was that they got out of the luxury tax this year and they now have a better shot at a lottery pick in this year's draft (with Deng they were going to make the playoffs in the crappy East).

The Bulls could have been a mid-seeded playoff team this year without Rose (The "Leastern" Conference is just pitiful sans Miami and Indiana). However, by getting rid of Deng, I think Chicago may try to do a little tanking. Deng was their best on-ball defender and gave you at least 15 points a game.

CDu - what do you think? Bulls looking for the lottery? Or too many terrible Eastern teams in the way?

superdave
01-07-2014, 09:23 AM
From the Espn article (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10255605/cleveland-cavaliers-agree-trade-andrew-bynum-chicago-bulls-luol-deng)

"Chicago plan to waive Bynum by 5 p.m. Tuesday and clear his $12.3 million salary off their books. That will enable the Bulls to get below the luxury tax threshold, which, combined with the savings from not having to pay Deng the balance of his $14.3 million salary, will save the team in more than $20 million."

Bynum will likely retire after he gets cut. He gone.

In conjunction with this move, I would imagine the Bulls amnesty Boozer and go all in for Jabari/Wiggins/Embiid/Smart. Yep. Here you go (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24400366/report-bulls-plan-to-trade-deng-use-amnesty-provision-on-boozer).

"The second part of their house-cleaning: They intend on using their amnesty move this coming summer to part ways with Carlos Boozer. Boozer is scheduled to make $16.8 million next season. As we reported earlier, Derrick Rose has caught wind of the plans and is none too thrilled about being part of a rebuilding project. Tom Thibodeau won't be very happy with it, either."

We've gone over the Bulls rebuilding project a lot here. It made sense with Rose's knee injury two seasons ago and makes sense now. Basically, they can reload rather than rebuild. Imagine getting a top 5 pick this year via tanking, getting an extra quality player or two through the Cavs draft picks, signing a big free agent and getting Rose back from injury. They will be set for the next 5 year run assuming Rose can stay healthy.

The two problems they had were they did not want to pay Deng more $10-$12 million and Deng's performance was commanding more than that, and Boozer was not quite performing up to expectations while they have Taj Gibson in the wings.

Next year, the Bulls could have Rose, Jimmy Butler, an awesome rookie, LeBron or Melo and Gibson/Noah/Dunleavy. Their moves this week seem pretty good to me.

CDu
01-07-2014, 09:36 AM
The Bulls could have been a mid-seeded playoff team this year without Rose (The "Leastern" Conference is just pitiful sans Miami and Indiana). However, by getting rid of Deng, I think Chicago may try to do a little tanking. Deng was their best on-ball defender and gave you at least 15 points a game.

CDu - what do you think? Bulls looking for the lottery? Or too many terrible Eastern teams in the way?

I do think that the organization is now looking to tank this year (don't be shocked if Boozer gets traded as well - possibly Dunleavy, too). They see it as a lost season with the Rose injury. It's disappointing because I thought they had a decent shot at competing this year (prior to the Rose injury). But without him, their ceiling is middle of the pack in the East - good enough to give the Pacers and Heat a fight, but not good enough to beat them in a 7-game series.

The question is whether Thibs and the team will let a tank happen. Noah, Gibson, and Butler are competitors, and they'll claw their way to some victories. It'll be close, and it will depend on whether or not they can trade Boozer. But I think they can succeed in getting into the lottery.

Just a disappointing year for the Bulls, following a disappointing end of the 2012 season and the frustration of the Rose situation in the 2013 season.

CDu
01-07-2014, 09:42 AM
Next year, the Bulls could have Rose, Jimmy Butler, an awesome rookie, LeBron or Melo and Gibson/Noah/Dunleavy. Their moves this week seem pretty good to me.

I think the more likely scenario is that they finally bring over Nicola Mirotic from the Spanish League. He's probably the best player in Europe, with a game similar to that of Nowitzki. It'd be great to sign a superstar, but I don't think James or Melo are realistic options.

That being said, I do think the move is the right one for the Bulls. They aren't winning anything this year, and they'll be financially strapped to have a chance next year (after which they'd have to rebuild with no assets). This approach officially kills this season, but it gives them a shot at a promising rookie and a shot at bringing over Mirotic or attracting an NBA star this summer. And (perhaps most importantly from the Bulls' management perspective) it gets them out of the repeater tax.

flyingdutchdevil
01-07-2014, 09:50 AM
From the Espn article (http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10255605/cleveland-cavaliers-agree-trade-andrew-bynum-chicago-bulls-luol-deng)

"Chicago plan to waive Bynum by 5 p.m. Tuesday and clear his $12.3 million salary off their books. That will enable the Bulls to get below the luxury tax threshold, which, combined with the savings from not having to pay Deng the balance of his $14.3 million salary, will save the team in more than $20 million."

Bynum will likely retire after he gets cut. He gone.

In conjunction with this move, I would imagine the Bulls amnesty Boozer and go all in for Jabari/Wiggins/Embiid/Smart. Yep. Here you go (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24400366/report-bulls-plan-to-trade-deng-use-amnesty-provision-on-boozer).

"The second part of their house-cleaning: They intend on using their amnesty move this coming summer to part ways with Carlos Boozer. Boozer is scheduled to make $16.8 million next season. As we reported earlier, Derrick Rose has caught wind of the plans and is none too thrilled about being part of a rebuilding project. Tom Thibodeau won't be very happy with it, either."

We've gone over the Bulls rebuilding project a lot here. It made sense with Rose's knee injury two seasons ago and makes sense now. Basically, they can reload rather than rebuild. Imagine getting a top 5 pick this year via tanking, getting an extra quality player or two through the Cavs draft picks, signing a big free agent and getting Rose back from injury. They will be set for the next 5 year run assuming Rose can stay healthy.

The two problems they had were they did not want to pay Deng more $10-$12 million and Deng's performance was commanding more than that, and Boozer was not quite performing up to expectations while they have Taj Gibson in the wings.

Next year, the Bulls could have Rose, Jimmy Butler, an awesome rookie, LeBron or Melo and Gibson/Noah/Dunleavy. Their moves this week seem pretty good to me.

I'm not a Bulls fan in the slightest (I supported Utah growing up because my brother was a Jordan fan), but I have been following them closely ever since Luol was a key member of the team. I understand what they are doing, but I'm not sure that a) it's the smartest of strategies and b) they can land a blue chipper this off-season.

1) After Rose's second season-ending injury, he can't be trusted to build a team around. This has nothing to do about Rose's ability (he was an MVP three years into his career!) but rather that he's more injury prone than Yao Ming. Gutting the team and putting your eggs in a one handled-basket is insanely risky.

2) Given Rose's injury-prone issues, and given that the team doesn't have offensive talent outside of Rose, I don't see many blue-chippers being interested in Chicago. I think Melo may make the most sense (great offensive player with Noah to help him on D), but I see Melo going to a team with greener pastures (Clippers if they trade Griffin, Phoenix, Atlanta, or maybe even LA for the exposure). Lebron wouldn't join a team in the same division as Cleveland unless that team is Cleveland.

3) I'm not sure the Bulls can be as bad as the Bucks, Magic, 76ers, and a handful of other teams, even if they tried. Unless they luck-out with the lottery like they did with Derrick Rose, I don't see them landing a top 5er.

4) This team is really putting a lot of faith into Butler and Gibson, two players that I feel were so underrated that they are now overrated. They are great role players, but you need around 3 stars / semi-stars to win + plentiful role players, and right now they have a star-on-crutches and a stellar defensive post player. They may need a little more to compete with the best.

Troublemaker
01-07-2014, 09:53 AM
I do think that the organization is now looking to tank this year (don't be shocked if Boozer gets traded as well - possibly Dunleavy, too). They see it as a lost season with the Rose injury. It's disappointing because I thought they had a decent shot at competing this year (prior to the Rose injury). But without him, their ceiling is middle of the pack in the East - good enough to give the Pacers and Heat a fight, but not good enough to beat them in a 7-game series.

The question is whether Thibs and the team will let a tank happen. Noah, Gibson, and Butler are competitors, and they'll claw their way to some victories. It'll be close, and it will depend on whether or not they can trade Boozer. But I think they can succeed in getting into the lottery.

Just a disappointing year for the Bulls, following a disappointing end of the 2012 season and the frustration of the Rose situation in the 2013 season.

Hmm, probably not much of a chance Boozer gets traded to a contender, right? Due to his huge contract. I'd rather Chicago amnesty him then, so he can go try to sign with a contender.

I think a trade of Dunleavy could land him with a contender.

superdave
01-07-2014, 09:59 AM
Ownership is dead set on making the playoffs. The East is weak and the Cavs are only 3 games out of the 8th seed in spite of being a dozen games below .500.

They did a nice job structuring Bynum's contract to be low-risk. Now, do they have another move to go? They could package some B players and try to get an A player from another team wishing to tank or to fin some tax relief. I have not seen much on the Dion Waiters trade front lately. But that seems like it would be good for the locker room (of course, why sell low?)

The Cavs going forward are Irving, Waiters, Bennett, Thompson, Zeller. They'd have to re-sign Deng and Varejao to have them for next season. They may be all-in for Deng at this point (who just turned down 3 years and $30 million from the Bulls) and they may get Anderson back for about $8 million. That leaves little wiggle room going forward and an average team. Dealign Waiters may be their best option to get a shooter to spread the floor for Irving.

flyingdutchdevil
01-07-2014, 10:04 AM
Hmm, probably not much of a chance Boozer gets traded to a contender, right? Due to his huge contract. I'd rather Chicago amnesty him then, so he can go try to sign with a contender.

I think a trade of Dunleavy could land him with a contender.

I agree with you on Boozer. But what contender? Certainly not Indy, as they already have two offensive, power 4s in West and Scola. Miami won't get him because teams will be willing to pay a lot higher so Miami can't get him (plus Miami has zero cash). The Clippers are an interesting choice, but money is also an issue and they need more help at the 5 than any other position. The Thunder are in the same boat as the Clippers. San Antonio could be a target, given that Duncan can slide to the 5, focus on defending, and have Boozer get all the rebounds. Golden State essential has a 'Boozer' type player already in Lee (good rebounding, really good offense, poor defense).

Most contenders already have really solid 4s. I guess Boozer could come off the bench, but I think he's way more valuable than that. Unlike Elton, Boozer is still in his prime and can add real value to a team in need.

Dukehky
01-07-2014, 10:47 AM
Deng was gone after this year anyway because the Bulls' doctors almost killed him, which apparently he didn't really appreciate. Also, the Heat are going to sign Bynum within the next 24 hours if they aren't crazy. So Dan Gilbert just helped LeBron win another title.

My goodness, the Cavaliers suck. Kyrie is going to bail as soon as he can and Lou is gone after this year too. I want no Duke players in that horrible organization so that I have to pull for them. They are atrocious. If I were Kyrie, I would have pulled a Danny Ferry, and gone to play in Europe rather than have to go play for Cleveland.

Des Esseintes
01-07-2014, 12:58 PM
I agree with you on Boozer. But what contender? Certainly not Indy, as they already have two offensive, power 4s in West and Scola. Miami won't get him because teams will be willing to pay a lot higher so Miami can't get him (plus Miami has zero cash). The Clippers are an interesting choice, but money is also an issue and they need more help at the 5 than any other position. The Thunder are in the same boat as the Clippers. San Antonio could be a target, given that Duncan can slide to the 5, focus on defending, and have Boozer get all the rebounds. Golden State essential has a 'Boozer' type player already in Lee (good rebounding, really good offense, poor defense).

Most contenders already have really solid 4s. I guess Boozer could come off the bench, but I think he's way more valuable than that. Unlike Elton, Boozer is still in his prime and can add real value to a team in need.

The amnesty would not be for this year. Since the Bulls are now under the tax, they have no reason to cut Boozer. Over the off-season, however, they are expected to amnesty him, and who knows what teams will have a need then, especially on a very low post-amnesty deal?

Troublemaker
01-07-2014, 01:11 PM
I agree with you on Boozer. But what contender? Certainly not Indy, as they already have two offensive, power 4s in West and Scola. Miami won't get him because teams will be willing to pay a lot higher so Miami can't get him (plus Miami has zero cash). The Clippers are an interesting choice, but money is also an issue and they need more help at the 5 than any other position. The Thunder are in the same boat as the Clippers. San Antonio could be a target, given that Duncan can slide to the 5, focus on defending, and have Boozer get all the rebounds. Golden State essential has a 'Boozer' type player already in Lee (good rebounding, really good offense, poor defense).


Yeah, I agree. Most contenders already have better starting PFs. I was thinking one of them might bid like $2 million to acquire Booz's services as a backup PF, though, since he can rebound and score some and the Bulls would still be paying the rest of his salary.

The Bulls are known to be a frugal organization, though, and I'm sure they would rather not pay Boozer to play for someone else if they can help it. They're going to try to entice some non-contender (that has cap room) to absorb Booz's contract for some second-round picks. Now that I write this out, that doesn't seem too appealing to a non-contender, either.

Booz will probably end up as an amnesty in the offseason, as Des suggests.

CDu
01-07-2014, 01:18 PM
The amnesty would not be for this year. Since the Bulls are now under the tax, they have no reason to cut Boozer. Over the off-season, however, they are expected to amnesty him, and who knows what teams will have a need then, especially on a very low post-amnesty deal?

Yeah, if the Bulls don't trade Boozer (and that may not be very likely, though it would certainly fit with the tanking plan), they'll almost certainly amnesty him this summer. That will allow them to sign one decent-but-not-quite superstar-level player (the expectation being that they will push very hard to bring Mirotic over).

You can't actually amnesty a player during the season. It has to be during July prior to the season.

Des Esseintes
01-07-2014, 02:12 PM
Yeah, if the Bulls don't trade Boozer (and that may not be very likely, though it would certainly fit with the tanking plan), they'll almost certainly amnesty him this summer. That will allow them to sign one decent-but-not-quite superstar-level player (the expectation being that they will push very hard to bring Mirotic over).

You can't actually amnesty a player during the season. It has to be during July prior to the season.

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think midseason amnesties were even possible but wasn't sure.

toooskies
01-07-2014, 03:08 PM
This is essentially the deal that the Bynum contract was structured for, and I think Luol is the perfect player to add to the roster. The weakness at SF was absolutely killing the Cavs because they couldn't guard any tall wings. Unlike some posters say, he's not even close to over the hill, despite being a 9 year vet. If he rubs off on the young guys and teaches them some things about defense and intensity, then the Cavs go from dysfunctional to interesting. He also doesn't need to be a ball-hog, which is great for Cleveland as well-- Irving, Waiters, Jack, and Bynum all needed the ball in their hands to produce in this offense.

Chris Grant certainly has done a great job with his contracts and trades. The Bynum risk just turned into reward despite the fact that he might not play another meaningful minute in the league, and that doesn't happen without the partial guarantee on Bynum's first year of the contract. Grant needs to stop being so contrarian with his draft picks, but he has at least acquired the most talent on the market that's been available to the organization.

CDu
01-07-2014, 03:59 PM
This is essentially the deal that the Bynum contract was structured for, and I think Luol is the perfect player to add to the roster. The weakness at SF was absolutely killing the Cavs because they couldn't guard any tall wings. Unlike some posters say, he's not even close to over the hill, despite being a 9 year vet. If he rubs off on the young guys and teaches them some things about defense and intensity, then the Cavs go from dysfunctional to interesting. He also doesn't need to be a ball-hog, which is great for Cleveland as well-- Irving, Waiters, Jack, and Bynum all needed the ball in their hands to produce in this offense.

Chris Grant certainly has done a great job with his contracts and trades. The Bynum risk just turned into reward despite the fact that he might not play another meaningful minute in the league, and that doesn't happen without the partial guarantee on Bynum's first year of the contract. Grant needs to stop being so contrarian with his draft picks, but he has at least acquired the most talent on the market that's been available to the organization.

I would say that Deng is a perfect player to add to any roster - provided you aren't looking to add a playmaker. Deng plays elite defense and is unselfish on offense. He's a perfect teammate. As a Bulls fan, it stinks to be in the position where trading him for cap space/tax relief (the draft picks aren't really compensation - maybe they become useful but likely they won't) is the best option. But given our financial situation and the injuries to Rose, the championship window with Deng as a piece has likely closed. It's time to try to acquire a cheap asset to go along with Rose, Gibson, and Noah and allow us to bring Mirotic over and still be able to afford to keep Butler.

Sadly, we just aren't in a position where we can afford to keep Deng at his going rate and keep up with the Joneses - certainly not without going well into the tax for the next several years. The emergence of Butler and the potential of Snell unfortunately have made Deng (at his price) no longer cost-effective.

flyingdutchdevil
01-07-2014, 04:20 PM
I would say that Deng is a perfect player to add to any roster - provided you aren't looking to add a playmaker. Deng plays elite defense and is unselfish on offense. He's a perfect teammate. As a Bulls fan, it stinks to be in the position where trading him for cap space/tax relief (the draft picks aren't really compensation - maybe they become useful but likely they won't) is the best option. But given our financial situation and the injuries to Rose, the championship window with Deng as a piece has likely closed. It's time to try to acquire a cheap asset to go along with Rose, Gibson, and Noah and allow us to bring Mirotic over and still be able to afford to keep Butler.

Sadly, we just aren't in a position where we can afford to keep Deng at his going rate and keep up with the Joneses - certainly not without going well into the tax for the next several years. The emergence of Butler and the potential of Snell unfortunately have made Deng (at his price) no longer cost-effective.

What do you think of your team's chances in 2015 and 2016? I know a lot can (and probably will) happen between now and then, but do you think the Bulls have a strong enough core to even make it to the conference finals?'

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think best case scenario is getting lucky in the lottery with a 3-5 pick, getting Melo, and having a healthy Rose who is playing like it's 2011. Worst case? Blue chippers don't want to touch the Bulls because they're cheap and don't know the outcome of Rose, Rose not ever being 100% again, getting a late-lottery pick, and Butler not panning out to be the next Deng.

I honestly think the worst case scenario is more likely than the best case...

CDu
01-07-2014, 04:40 PM
What do you think of your team's chances in 2015 and 2016? I know a lot can (and probably will) happen between now and then, but do you think the Bulls have a strong enough core to even make it to the conference finals?'

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think best case scenario is getting lucky in the lottery with a 3-5 pick, getting Melo, and having a healthy Rose who is playing like it's 2011. Worst case? Blue chippers don't want to touch the Bulls because they're cheap and don't know the outcome of Rose, Rose not ever being 100% again, getting a late-lottery pick, and Butler not panning out to be the next Deng.

I honestly think the worst case scenario is more likely than the best case...

It's just impossible to say. The "hope" is to get lucky with the lottery this summer and get a potential star from the draft. I don't think Melo is really in play for the Bulls. We won't have the cap space to sign him outright, which would then require a sign-and-trade. But who knows? I think the goal is to get Mirotic to come over and be our third big (with Noah and Gibson). Mirotic is the best player in Europe and has drawn comparisons to Dirk. The most likely scenario is that we use a decent chunk of the savings on Boozer and Deng to convince Mirotic to come to the US, then use the rest of our cap space on complementary players.

But there are just so many unknowns. We have our unknown pick this year. We have a 1st round pick coming from Charlotte in one of the next 3 years. We have a possible mid-first round pick coming from Sacramento. We might be able to swap picks for a mid-first rounder from Cleveland. And we'll have about $10-12 million in cap space. That's a lot of unknown assets at this point.

With even a 95% Rose, Butler, Gibson, Noah, potentially two top-15 picks this summer (ideally a top-5 and Charlotte's #11 this year), a mid-first next year, and an as-advertised Mirotic (or Melo in some alternate universe where he comes to Chicago), I think we're right there again among the elite.

If we end up with an 80% Rose, Butler, Gibson, Noah, just a mid-first rounder this summer, and are unable to convince Mirotic or any NBA stars to sign, then I think we're a mediocre team and it'll be back to the drawing board.

blUDAYvil
01-07-2014, 05:18 PM
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/10258773/chier-ajou-transfer-northwestern-wildcats

The Worldwide leader reports today that Luol Deng's cousin and Northwestern C, Chier Ajou, will transfer out of Northwestern. Unclear if Luol leaving Chicago has anything to do with it. Likely the fact that he's played a grand total of 2 minutes this year is the motivating factor.

moonpie23
01-07-2014, 09:27 PM
bynum waived…..

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/10259313/chicago-bulls-understand-why-tom-thibodeau-unhappy-luol-deng-trade

what the hey?

CDu
01-07-2014, 09:33 PM
bynum waived…..

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/10259313/chicago-bulls-understand-why-tom-thibodeau-unhappy-luol-deng-trade

what the hey?

This was the plan. The Bulls traded specifically for Bynum because his contract is non-guaranteed if he's waived by today. It was a salary cap move. By trading Deng for Bynum and then waiving Bynum immediately, the Bulls get from out of the luxury tax. This is important for two reasons: first, it saves the Bulls luxury tax money this year; second, it keeps them from entering the dreaded "repeater tax" realm (they were in over the tax line last year), which saves them even more money in coming years.

Waiving Bynum was a foregone conclusion when this trade was being discussed as a possibility.

FerryFor50
01-07-2014, 10:11 PM
This was the plan. The Bulls traded specifically for Bynum because his contract is non-guaranteed if he's waived by today. It was a salary cap move. By trading Deng for Bynum and then waiving Bynum immediately, the Bulls get from out of the luxury tax. This is important for two reasons: first, it saves the Bulls luxury tax money this year; second, it keeps them from entering the dreaded "repeater tax" realm (they were in over the tax line last year), which saves them even more money in coming years.

Waiving Bynum was a foregone conclusion when this trade was being discussed as a possibility.

That, and why keep a locker room head case around that no longer wants to play basketball, just collect a check?

g-money
01-08-2014, 02:21 AM
It isn't immediately obvious to me as to which team got the better of this deal. I think a lot of it depends on whether Deng decides to stay with Cleveland after the season. Given Cleveland's recent draft history, I actually don't think the opportunity cost of giving up all those picks is very high.

In the meantime, I am going to enjoy watching a couple of kids who played high school ball in Jersey and college ball at Duke (oh so briefly) play together in the Association. Given how bad the East is, they're practically a shoe-in for the playoffs. I think Deng and Irving will be very complementary on the court.

So I guess that semi-officially makes me a Cavs fan for the next 5 months! (plus my hometown Warriors, plus the Heat if Battier ends up getting serious minutes, and... OK, I'll stop here, before I lose what little credibility I have left as a sports fan.)

CDu
01-08-2014, 08:08 AM
It isn't immediately obvious to me as to which team got the better of this deal. I think a lot of it depends on whether Deng decides to stay with Cleveland after the season. Given Cleveland's recent draft history, I actually don't think the opportunity cost of giving up all those picks is very high.

In the meantime, I am going to enjoy watching a couple of kids who played high school ball in Jersey and college ball at Duke (oh so briefly) play together in the Association. Given how bad the East is, they're practically a shoe-in for the playoffs. I think Deng and Irving will be very complementary on the court.

So I guess that semi-officially makes me a Cavs fan for the next 5 months! (plus my hometown Warriors, plus the Heat if Battier ends up getting serious minutes, and... OK, I'll stop here, before I lose what little credibility I have left as a sports fan.)

So you weren't a Bulls fan despite them having THREE former Dukies (until yesterday)? :)

g-money
01-08-2014, 07:02 PM
So you weren't a Bulls fan despite them having THREE former Dukies (until yesterday)? :)

I love the Bulls! If Rose had stayed healthy, I would have been excited to see a Bulls-Heat showdown in the playoffs. It would've been a win-win from a Duke perspective. Alas...

Now Indiana, on the other hand - they'll get no love from me.

ice-9
01-10-2014, 06:46 AM
I didn't realize Deng got such bad treatment from the Bulls - http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/1/7/5283734/luol-deng-trade-chicago-bulls-andrew-bynum

This puts the Bulls in a different light for me...as soon as Dunleavy gets traded and Boozer amnestied, I'll be rooting against them. At that point hope the Cavs destroy the Bulls with Deng leading the way.

CDu
01-10-2014, 09:12 AM
I didn't realize Deng got such bad treatment from the Bulls - http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/1/7/5283734/luol-deng-trade-chicago-bulls-andrew-bynum

This puts the Bulls in a different light for me...as soon as Dunleavy gets traded and Boozer amnestied, I'll be rooting against them. At that point hope the Cavs destroy the Bulls with Deng leading the way.

To be fair, the Bulls have no control over what hospital room the hospital puts Deng in, and the entire organization shouldn't be at fault for the trainer's misdiagnosis of the stress fracture.

The biggest no-nos the Bulls did were to have a pretty terrible team doctor/trainer and to not let Thibs know the severity of Deng's condition after the spinal tap. Thibs LOVES Deng and was furious with the trade. He would never have thrown Deng under the bus like that had he understood the situation.

This was an unfortunate situation. Deng was a beloved player in Chicago, but he was soon to cost more than the Bulls could afford to pay without going deep into the tax and killing any flexibility to replace aging players. They got a one-day opportunity to make a deal (Bynum had to be waived Jan 7 to avoid guaranteeing his deal) and they took it.

None of this is likely to change your tune about the Bulls. But I did feel the need to point out the exaggerations in that article. Reinsdorf IS a cheap owner. The Bulls' medical staff is pretty bad at their job. But the team and coach are very Duke-like in how they do things: they compete every play; they make no excuses; they put defense first; and they typically wring every ounce of success out of their talent, even when it is clear that they are undermanned.

flyingdutchdevil
01-10-2014, 09:17 AM
To be fair, the Bulls have no control over what hospital room the hospital puts Deng in, and the entire organization shouldn't be at fault for the trainer's misdiagnosis of the stress fracture.

The biggest no-nos the Bulls did were to have a pretty terrible team doctor/trainer and to not let Thibs know the severity of Deng's condition after the spinal tap. Thibs LOVES Deng and was furious with the trade. He would never have thrown Deng under the bus like that had he understood the situation.

This was an unfortunate situation. Deng was a beloved player in Chicago, but he was soon to cost more than the Bulls could afford to pay without going deep into the tax and killing any flexibility to replace aging players. They got a one-day opportunity to make a deal (Bynum had to be waived Jan 7 to avoid guaranteeing his deal) and they took it.

None of this is likely to change your tune about the Bulls. But I did feel the need to point out the exaggerations in that article. Reinsdorf IS a cheap owner. The Bulls' medical staff is pretty bad at their job. But the team and coach are very Duke-like in how they do things: they compete every play; they make no excuses; they put defense first; and they typically wring every ounce of success out of their talent, even when it is clear that they are undermanned.

CDu - I think you'd agree with me that the Bulls coaching staff and the players represent the NBA, the city, and themselves very well. I think this is very difficult to argue with. I really like Thibs and feel that he is an integral part of the future of the organization.

But the rest of the organization - the owner, the GM, the medical staff, the management -they aren't on the same page. John Paxson is only a mediocre GM in my book, and, as you said, the owner is very cheap. Furthermore, many of the stories in the Deng article - exaggerated or not - make the GM and organization look terrible, not Thibs or the other players.

ChillinDuke
01-10-2014, 09:20 AM
To be fair, the Bulls have no control over what hospital room the hospital puts Deng in, and the entire organization shouldn't be at fault for the trainer's misdiagnosis of the stress fracture.

The biggest no-nos the Bulls did were to have a pretty terrible team doctor/trainer and to not let Thibs know the severity of Deng's condition after the spinal tap. Thibs LOVES Deng and was furious with the trade. He would never have thrown Deng under the bus like that had he understood the situation.

This was an unfortunate situation. Deng was a beloved player in Chicago, but he was soon to cost more than the Bulls could afford to pay without going deep into the tax and killing any flexibility to replace aging players. They got a one-day opportunity to make a deal (Bynum had to be waived Jan 7 to avoid guaranteeing his deal) and they took it.

None of this is likely to change your tune about the Bulls. But I did feel the need to point out the exaggerations in that article. Reinsdorf IS a cheap owner. The Bulls' medical staff is pretty bad at their job. But the team and coach are very Duke-like in how they do things: they compete every play; they make no excuses; they put defense first; and they typically wring every ounce of success out of their talent, even when it is clear that they are undermanned.

Pretty much agree with all of this, but do the Chicago Bulls really not have control over what hospital room Deng is in?

Even my family had some level of control over this when my grandmother was ailing. At least got her into a private room.

And we don't own an NBA team.

- Chillin

ice-9
01-10-2014, 09:54 AM
To be fair, the Bulls have no control over what hospital room the hospital puts Deng in, and the entire organization shouldn't be at fault for the trainer's misdiagnosis of the stress fracture.

The biggest no-nos the Bulls did were to have a pretty terrible team doctor/trainer and to not let Thibs know the severity of Deng's condition after the spinal tap. Thibs LOVES Deng and was furious with the trade. He would never have thrown Deng under the bus like that had he understood the situation.

This was an unfortunate situation. Deng was a beloved player in Chicago, but he was soon to cost more than the Bulls could afford to pay without going deep into the tax and killing any flexibility to replace aging players. They got a one-day opportunity to make a deal (Bynum had to be waived Jan 7 to avoid guaranteeing his deal) and they took it.

None of this is likely to change your tune about the Bulls. But I did feel the need to point out the exaggerations in that article. Reinsdorf IS a cheap owner. The Bulls' medical staff is pretty bad at their job. But the team and coach are very Duke-like in how they do things: they compete every play; they make no excuses; they put defense first; and they typically wring every ounce of success out of their talent, even when it is clear that they are undermanned.

I'm a big fan of Thibodeau and know he's a fan of Deng -- that's not the source of it. It's the management and organization as a whole. I could repeat what's in the article, but I encourage others to read the article and the various links in it for the full story. It would do a much better job than I can on all the ways the Bulls organization wronged Deng, and I think it's more than what CDu outlined above.

What it boils down to is that the Bulls organization just never seemed to care for Deng as a person; they treated him like an asset to maximize and discard. An asset who led the league in minutes for years because his team needed him to, and now not worth what they're willing to pay because he's 29 and won't last much longer because he's, yep, logged so many minutes. Just one example among others -- there's a pattern.

I don't fault the Bulls for trading Deng or for not willing to pay him his market worth; that's just business.

It's not the outcome, it was the way they went about achieving it.

CDu
01-10-2014, 01:04 PM
Pretty much agree with all of this, but do the Chicago Bulls really not have control over what hospital room Deng is in?

Even my family had some level of control over this when my grandmother was ailing. At least got her into a private room.

And we don't own an NBA team.

- Chillin

I would imagine that family of a patient would have a higher degree of control than an employer. And furthermore, why should it be the organization's job to find him a private room? This wasn't a case of a job-related injury requiring hospitalization. This was an illness. My employer certainly wouldn't be involved with my hospitalization. Would yours? They also wouldn't likely come see me in the hospital, though who knows?

Beyond that, there could be any number of reasons related to the hospital itself as to why he wasn't in a private room. To put that blame on the employer (when that employer may or may not have had any access to such a decision) seems a bit unfair.

There are lots of things to not like about Bulls' ownership and upper management, all related to how they do their business. I agree with flyingdutchdevil. The Bulls ownership is cheap. The upper management often do things without finesse. And their trainers/team doctor are atrocious. But this particular example of Deng's hospitalization just seems like a case of folks trying to pile on.

cato
01-10-2014, 02:03 PM
To be fair, the Bulls have no control over what hospital room the hospital puts Deng in, and the entire organization shouldn't be at fault for the trainer's misdiagnosis of the stress fracture.

The article paints a different picture.

First: the entire organization should be at fault for the trainer's misdiagnosis. The team employs the trainer! Who else would be at fault?

Second: it is absurd for the team to publicly challenge Luol Deng's commitment. From the article: "The Bulls misdiagnosed what turned out to be a stress fracture in his right leg and publicly challenged him to play through it. That isn't an exaggeration. In the news release announcing the injury was this line: 'He will be encouraged to challenge himself physically.' A few weeks later, doctors were advising him not to put any weight the leg."

At the very least, Louie should have earned enough respect to avoid that kind of treatment.

Third: again, from the article about Deng's stint in the hospital: "Once he was there, the Bulls showed little concern for him. Deng didn't even have a private hospital room, much less visits from team personnel. Tom Thibodeau had the gall to say Deng had 'flu-like symptoms, whatever' when asked about Deng's illness."

Duvall
01-10-2014, 02:34 PM
Second: it is absurd for the team to publicly challenge Luol Deng's commitment. From the article: "The Bulls misdiagnosed what turned out to be a stress fracture in his right leg and publicly challenged him to play through it. That isn't an exaggeration. In the news release announcing the injury was this line: 'He will be encouraged to challenge himself physically.' A few weeks later, doctors were advising him not to put any weight the leg."

At the very least, Louie should have earned enough respect to avoid that kind of treatment.

No player should get that kind of treatment. I'm surprised that the Bulls tried it with Deng without getting a bunch of people fired.

CDu
01-10-2014, 02:34 PM
The article paints a different picture.

First: the entire organization should be at fault for the trainer's misdiagnosis. The team employs the trainer! Who else would be at fault?

Second: it is absurd for the team to publicly challenge Luol Deng's commitment. From the article: "The Bulls misdiagnosed what turned out to be a stress fracture in his right leg and publicly challenged him to play through it. That isn't an exaggeration. In the news release announcing the injury was this line: 'He will be encouraged to challenge himself physically.' A few weeks later, doctors were advising him not to put any weight the leg."

At the very least, Louie should have earned enough respect to avoid that kind of treatment.

Third: again, from the article about Deng's stint in the hospital: "Once he was there, the Bulls showed little concern for him. Deng didn't even have a private hospital room, much less visits from team personnel. Tom Thibodeau had the gall to say Deng had 'flu-like symptoms, whatever' when asked about Deng's illness."

The trainer/team doctor misdiagnosed. That happens. It is unfortunate, but sometimes it happens.

As for the hospitalization, I'll repeat:
- would YOUR employer be responsible for putting you in a private room for a non-work-related illness? If it were a workman's comp situation, I could see an employer getting involved (maybe). But for possible meningitis? Not at all likely.
- The Thibs comments were because he got asked about Deng in a post-game presser before he had been informed of the severity of the situation. Thibs loves Deng and would never have said that had he known how bad it was. It was a poorly-worded off-hand comment without complete info. Thibs wasn't trying to call out Deng (arguably his favorite player), he just didn't know.

CDu
01-10-2014, 02:39 PM
No player should get that kind of treatment. I'm surprised that the Bulls tried it with Deng without getting a bunch of people fired.

Huh? The trainers made a diagnosis. Based on that diagnosis, the team (and Deng) thought he would be able to play. It was later found that the diagnosis was wrong. Why should heads roll? Sometimes docs make mistakes. It stinks, but it happens. They didn 't knowingly suggest he play through a stress fracture.

I mean, I guess you COULD fire the trainer for the misdiagnosis. But if we fired every doc who made a misdiagnosis, there would be a lot of fired doctors.

Ichabod Drain
01-10-2014, 02:43 PM
As for the hospitalization, I'll repeat:
- would YOUR employer be responsible for putting you in a private room for a non-work-related illness? If it were a workman's comp situation, I could see an employer getting involved (maybe). But for possible meningitis? Not at all likely.


What you're saying is true...

But at the same time let's not pretend the NBA Franchise/Player relationship is anything like a regular company/employee relationship.

CDu
01-10-2014, 02:46 PM
What you're saying is true...

But at the same time let's not pretend the NBA Franchise/Player relationship is anything like a regular company/employee relationship.

And why shouldn't we believe that to be the case? More dollars changing hands doesn't really change the dynamic other than that both sides are very well compensated.

Duvall
01-10-2014, 02:59 PM
Huh? The trainers made a diagnosis. Based on that diagnosis, the team (and Deng) thought he would be able to play. It was later found that the diagnosis was wrong. Why should heads roll? Sometimes docs make mistakes. It stinks, but it happens. They didn 't knowingly suggest he play through a stress fracture.

I mean, I guess you COULD fire the trainer for the misdiagnosis. But if we fired every doc who made a misdiagnosis, there would be a lot of fired doctors.

There's a difference making a bad diagnosis, and making statements to the press based on that diagnosis that paint the player - the patient! - in a bad light. I don't think I've ever seen a team issue a statement suggesting that a player would be "encouraged" to begin physical work. Able to begin work, cleared to begin work, but never "encouraged" to begin work.

Gthoma2a
01-10-2014, 03:20 PM
There's a difference making a bad diagnosis, and making statements to the press based on that diagnosis that paint the player - the patient! - in a bad light. I don't think I've ever seen a team issue a statement suggesting that a player would be "encouraged" to begin physical work. Able to begin work, cleared to begin work, but never "encouraged" to begin work.

3790

The black knight was encouraged to walk it off...

Ichabod Drain
01-10-2014, 03:33 PM
And why shouldn't we believe that to be the case? More dollars changing hands doesn't really change the dynamic other than that both sides are very well compensated.

More dollars changing hands absolutely does change the dynamic. For one thing it puts the player/team interactions in the national spotlight. As evidence by the article and this conversation. All that attention, positive or negative, is then reflected on the franchise.

CDu
01-10-2014, 03:48 PM
More dollars changing hands absolutely does change the dynamic. For one thing it puts the player/team interactions in the national spotlight. As evidence by the article and this conversation. All that attention, positive or negative, is then reflected on the franchise.

And again, why does that mean the organization is responsible for the player's non-work-related medical care?

Unless you're extremely naive, you surely understand that the concept of the organization as a family is a myth. Players don't care about their management any more than their management cares about them. These are grown men doing jobs. Nobody likes being traded, just as I am sure that nobody likes having to trade good employees. The Bulls, like every other professional sports franchise, are a business. And they are run like a business. And as a business, it's not their job to handle the non-work-related medical care of one of their employees. Especially when that employee certainly has the means to handle it himself.

The Bears, for example, had a tough decision to make. They had an aging former superstar (Urlacher) that was entering free agency. He had never played with another team in his entire career, and had made it clear that he wanted to retire a Bear. But his play had declined due to age and injuries. And in a salary cap world, his value was in the $2-3 million range. The Bears offered him that, and he declined. He complained that it was insulting. So he went looking for work with other teams. But guess what? Nobody offered him more. That's just the reality of the business.

The Bears certainly appreciated all the time, effort, leadership, and performance that Urlacher gave them over more than a decade. Just like the Bulls appreciate the time, effort, leadership, and performance that Deng game them for nearly a decade. But, ultimately, they were in a situation where Deng was going to cost more than they could afford. So they struck on a deal when it became available and moved on. They'll miss his performance on the court (Thibs has already spoken out about how much he hates the deal and voted against making it), but they realized that they had to do it to give them a chance to open a new championship window in the next few years.

The romantics will talk about how the Bulls have wronged Deng. They'll sensationalize it in every way possible, pulling any possible perceived slight to show how cold and uncaring the Bulls were to Deng (which is what is being done in this article). But the reality is that - while they aren't warm and fuzzy - the Bulls organization not the evil, heartless organization depicted by the romantics but is basically just a typical business running with the goal of making money.

If you take a look behind the curtains, you'll see that nearly every professional team works this way. They certainly value their employees - so long as those employees help them make profit and/or win championships. The ones that get caught up in emotional loyalty generally wind up making bad deals that hurt the team.

Gthoma2a
01-10-2014, 03:58 PM
And again, why does that mean the organization is responsible for the player's non-work-related medical care?

Unless you're extremely naive, you surely understand that the concept of the organization as a family is a myth. Players don't care about their management any more than their management cares about them. These are grown men doing jobs. Nobody likes being traded, just as I am sure that nobody likes having to trade good employees. The Bulls, like every other professional sports franchise, are a business. And they are run like a business. And as a business, it's not their job to handle the non-work-related medical care of one of their employees. Especially when that employee certainly has the means to handle it himself.

The Bears, for example, had a tough decision to make. They had an aging former superstar (Urlacher) that was entering free agency. He had never played with another team in his entire career, and had made it clear that he wanted to retire a Bear. But his play had declined due to age and injuries. And in a salary cap world, his value was in the $2-3 million range. The Bears offered him that, and he declined. He complained that it was insulting. So he went looking for work with other teams. But guess what? Nobody offered him more. That's just the reality of the business.

The Bears certainly appreciated all the time, effort, leadership, and performance that Urlacher gave them over more than a decade. Just like the Bulls appreciate the time, effort, leadership, and performance that Deng game them for nearly a decade. But, ultimately, they were in a situation where Deng was going to cost more than they could afford. So they struck on a deal when it became available and moved on. They'll miss his performance on the court (Thibs has already spoken out about how much he hates the deal and voted against making it), but they realized that they had to do it to give them a chance to open a new championship window in the next few years.

The romantics will talk about how the Bulls have wronged Deng. They'll sensationalize it in every way possible, pulling any possible perceived slight to show how cold and uncaring the Bulls were to Deng (which is what is being done in this article). But the reality is that - while they aren't warm and fuzzy - the Bulls organization not the evil, heartless organization depicted by the romantics but is basically just a typical business running with the goal of making money.

If you take a look behind the curtains, you'll see that nearly every professional team works this way. They certainly value their employees - so long as those employees help them make profit and/or win championships. The ones that get caught up in emotional loyalty generally wind up making bad deals that hurt the team.

Well, in the instance of Deng, if they ever wanted to recouperate any of the money they put into him, they had a vested interest in making sure he was healthy, whether it happened at work or not. It is just common sense that when you invest in an athlete, you NEED them to be healthy. If Kobe/Lebron hurt himself on a diving board, the Lakers/Heat would be pampering him like their lives depended on it. Barca and Messi. Ronaldo and Real Madrid.

CDu
01-10-2014, 04:02 PM
Well, in the instance of Deng, if they ever wanted to recouperate any of the money they put into him, they had a vested interest in making sure he was healthy, whether it happened at work or not. It is just common sense that when you invest in an athlete, you NEED them to be healthy. If Kobe/Lebron hurt himself on a diving board, the Lakers/Heat would be pampering him like their lives depended on it. Barca and Messi. Ronaldo and Real Madrid.

Yes, and I'm sure they coordinated that he go to the best docs in the Chicago area. But how does "not having a private room" post-procedure keep him from being healthy?

Not to mention that we don't know anything about the details of the hospital's decision on Deng's rooming situation and whether or not there was much the Bulls could do about it (even if they WERE responsible for his comfort, which they are not).

cato
01-10-2014, 04:10 PM
No player should get that kind of treatment. I'm surprised that the Bulls tried it with Deng without getting a bunch of people fired.

You are absolutely right. I'm just shocked they went so overboard with a guy who earned every benefit of the doubt.

Gthoma2a
01-10-2014, 04:13 PM
Yes, and I'm sure they coordinated that he go to the best docs in the Chicago area. But how does "not having a private room" post-procedure keep him from being healthy?

Not to mention that we don't know anything about the details of the hospital's decision on Deng's rooming situation and whether or not there was much the Bulls could do about it (even if they WERE responsible for his comfort, which they are not).

I suppose the lack of availibility of a better room for him would be one reason to have Luol there, but I think that the whole thing was bungled. Not because of any one thing, but the body of evidence makes it look like there was certainly less emphasis put on his condition than you would expect. The thought is that a franchise pampers a little more for one of their best players (Deng certainly qualified). It just didn't seem like that happened here, for whatever reason.

cato
01-10-2014, 04:16 PM
They certainly value their employees - so long as those employees help them make profit and/or win championships.

Yeah, that's the real head scratcher here. The Bulls pretty clearly didn't value Deng, despite his obvious value to the team.

I'm sorry he has to do time in Cleveland, but at least he's out of Chicago.

sagegrouse
01-10-2014, 04:28 PM
Well, in the instance of Deng, if they ever wanted to recouperate any of the money they put into him, they had a vested interest in making sure he was healthy, whether it happened at work or not. It is just common sense that when you invest in an athlete, you NEED them to be healthy. If Kobe/Lebron hurt himself on a diving board, the Lakers/Heat would be pampering him like their lives depended on it. Barca and Messi. Ronaldo and Real Madrid.


And again, why does that mean the organization is responsible for the player's non-work-related medical care?

Unless you're extremely naive, you surely understand that the concept of the organization as a family is a myth. Players don't care about their management any more than their management cares about them. These are grown men doing jobs. Nobody likes being traded, just as I am sure that nobody likes having to trade good employees. The Bulls, like every other professional sports franchise, are a business. And they are run like a business. And as a business, it's not their job to handle the non-work-related medical care of one of their employees. Especially when that employee certainly has the means to handle it himself.

.


Yes, and I'm sure they coordinated that he go to the best docs in the Chicago area. But how does "not having a private room" post-procedure keep him from being healthy?

Not to mention that we don't know anything about the details of the hospital's decision on Deng's rooming situation and whether or not there was much the Bulls could do about it (even if they WERE responsible for his comfort, which they are not).

First, let me congratulate Gthoma for inventing a new word, "recouperate," for reclaiming money. I see a lot of uses for the word, and maybe it will enter the English lexicon.

Second, I tend to dispute the idea that the successful business entity is not, in many respects, like a family. Employees with personal or family issues frequently get a lot of time, TLC and resources from the employer. That would esp. be true in what is essentially a small business with a few dozen employees. And the NBA team gets huge loyalty from the players in playing and training hard and trying to win.

Third, it is really bad for external relations (and ticket sales) to treat a player shabbily, esp. a figure as sympathetic as Luol, who gives so much to other people. Therefore, I am pretty skeptical of the article referenced by the OP.

sage

Gthoma2a
01-10-2014, 04:36 PM
First, let me congratulate Gthoma for inventing a new word, "recouperate," for reclaiming money. I see a lot of uses for the word, and maybe it will enter the English lexicon.

Second, I tend to dispute the idea that the successful business entity is not, in many respects, like a family. Employees with personal or family issues frequently get a lot of time, TLC and resources from the employer. That would esp. be true in what is essentially a small business with a few dozen employees. And the NBA team gets huge loyalty from the players in playing and training hard and trying to win.

Third, it is really bad for external relations (and ticket sales) to treat a player shabbily, esp. a figure as sympathetic as Luol, who gives so much to other people. Therefore, I am pretty skeptical of the article referenced by the OP.

sage

Thanks. It is an alternate spelling for *recuperate* I like the O. I think it adds character to the word and makes it more well-rounded.

CDu
01-10-2014, 04:59 PM
Yeah, that's the real head scratcher here. The Bulls pretty clearly didn't value Deng, despite his obvious value to the team.

I'm sorry he has to do time in Cleveland, but at least he's out of Chicago.

See, that's the thing. I don't think the Bulls didn't value Deng. Paxson (the GM who drafted Deng) certainly valued him: identifying and drafting Deng was one of his best decisions as a GM. Thibs certainly valued him - he vehemently opposed trading Deng, even though it probably makes sense for the team's long-term future. He called Deng the perfect player and teammate.

I think this was a sensationalist piece by an SB Nation contributor. Not a true reflection of the Bulls' feelings toward Deng. They've taken a couple of unfortunate incidents over a 10-year period and spun them into this image of a heartless organization. And the average reader has bought it.

I mean, if the Bulls as an organization treated Deng as bad as this article suggests, why would he be upset about leaving them? Why would he have said he wanted to retire as a Bull, and that he wanted to discuss an extension? Seems like the first thing he'd want to do is get out of there, right?

BD80
01-10-2014, 06:09 PM
3790

The black knight was encouraged to walk it off...

But that was merely a flesh wound ...


Thanks. It is an alternate spelling for *recuperate* I like the O. I think it adds character to the word and makes it more well-rounded.

Rumour has it is just a different shade of the same colour

sagegrouse
01-10-2014, 06:23 PM
Thanks. It is an alternate spelling for *recuperate* I like the O. I think it adds character to the word and makes it more well-rounded.

I was referring to the use of the word to mean "regain or recover" in place of the more usual "recoup." But then I think I am now playing a game where I don't understand the rules.

throatybeard
01-10-2014, 08:39 PM
First, let me congratulate Gthoma for inventing a new word, "recouperate," for reclaiming money. I see a lot of uses for the word, and maybe it will enter the English lexicon.

Just wait until the Yankees misrecouperate all that money they committed to Alex Rodriguez.

Gthoma2a
01-10-2014, 09:47 PM
Just wait until the Yankees misrecouperate all that money they committed to Alex Rodriguez.

As a Yankees fan, that money has been "misrecouperated" for a while now.

ice-9
01-10-2014, 10:09 PM
Wow...where to start?


My employer certainly wouldn't be involved with my hospitalization. Would yours? They also wouldn't likely come see me in the hospital, though who knows?

Well, I visited an employee who had dengue fever for one. I also visited another employee in the maternity ward after she gave birth.

My company isn't big enough to have doctors on staff, but if it did, I assure you those doctors would have paid more attention to my $100 million dollar hospitalized asset. It's the smart thing to do, and it also happens to be the right thing to do.

And as cato pointed out, it's not just the misdiagnosis or even the lack of attention -- it's about challenging Deng's manhood in the press. Why would you do something like that to the league's leader in minutes? Of someone who's done everything that was asked of him? Hasn't Deng earned a certain level of respect?


Huh? The trainers made a diagnosis. Based on that diagnosis, the team (and Deng) thought he would be able to play. It was later found that the diagnosis was wrong. Why should heads roll? Sometimes docs make mistakes. It stinks, but it happens. They didn 't knowingly suggest he play through a stress fracture.

It's not about the misdiagnosis, it's about the lack of respect. I don't know why you're not seeing this.


But the reality is that - while they aren't warm and fuzzy - the Bulls organization not the evil, heartless organization depicted by the romantics but is basically just a typical business running with the goal of making money.

The point here is that they didn't treat Deng well -- Deng of all people! The ultimate teammate, a superlative individual contributor, a humanitarian for God's sake; if you can't do right by such a person (and I'm NOT talking about a huge contract), I don't know what that says about the character of your organization.


They certainly value their employees - so long as those employees help them make profit and/or win championships. The ones that get caught up in emotional loyalty generally wind up making bad deals that hurt the team.

It's about treating Deng like a person and not just an asset. Visiting him in the hospital; not challenging him in the public press to play through his injuries; putting him on the roster as possible to play on the day he got a spinal tap; being straight with him about his contract situation instead of the complete lack of communication; for not giving lowball contract offers and then pretending to the press they tried to keep him; etc. etc.

You can run a business without making emotional, bad deals and STILL treat your staff like human beings. I don't know where you work CDu to make you think this is not possible.


I think this was a sensationalist piece by an SB Nation contributor. Not a true reflection of the Bulls' feelings toward Deng. They've taken a couple of unfortunate incidents over a 10-year period and spun them into this image of a heartless organization. And the average reader has bought it.

I'm struggling to understand your intent here. By calling the author an SB Nation contributor, are you saying he doesn't have credibility? And that you the above average reader knows better? CDu maybe you should post an article on SB Nation too and put your views on record.

I don't know enough about the situation to get into a detailed debate -- but your replies have failed to sway me from the premise that the Bulls' organization mistreated Deng. The SB Nation contributor and the various authors he linked to (and the authors they linked to) have put forward a MUCH more compelling case.

I'm open to be convinced otherwise but remain unconvinced.


I mean, if the Bulls as an organization treated Deng as bad as this article suggests, why would he be upset about leaving them? Why would he have said he wanted to retire as a Bull, and that he wanted to discuss an extension? Seems like the first thing he'd want to do is get out of there, right?

Easy answer - Deng loves his coach and his teammates. And having had a nomadic childhood where he constantly moved from place to place, Chicago is also the only place he's been in for more than five years.

"You will hear a lot of can't and a lot of won't, but you give it everything you can because you believe in yourself and your teammates. You push yourself with your heart, mind and soul, and smile every night knowing you put love and passion into it. Thank you, Chicago."


Third, it is really bad for external relations (and ticket sales) to treat a player shabbily, esp. a figure as sympathetic as Luol, who gives so much to other people. Therefore, I am pretty skeptical of the article referenced by the OP.

sagegrouse, I encourage you to explore the links within the article, and the links from those links, to see what others have said of the topic. There's little to no dispute as to what factually happened, just how to interpret from it.

throatybeard
01-10-2014, 10:38 PM
As a Yankees fan, that money has been "misrecouperated" for a while now.

I think so far, it's only been misappropriated. Only when MLB suspends him for 211 games do they get to misrecouperate it.