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kAzE
01-01-2014, 09:58 PM
I'm starting to get really sick of it . . . it's like they don't acknowledge that there are 11 other guys on the team. Almost every highlight tape of our games only shows Jabari highlights.

No, seriously: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10222751&ex_cid=espnapi_public

The first sentence of the AP recap is "No. 7 Duke proved it's anything but a one-man show." Somebody needs to tell the guy putting together the highlight reel that.

I'm not sure if it's this way for the other teams with high-profile freshmen, but it seems like the worst sell-out move possible. Basketball, especially college ball is about team play, and this is calling way too much attention to individual stars. What are little kids who are learning to play the game thinking when they watch this stuff? I love Jabari, but this disgusts me.

Dukehky
01-01-2014, 10:07 PM
I'm starting to get really sick of it . . . it's like they don't acknowledge that there are 11 other guys on the team. Almost every highlight tape of our games only shows Jabari highlights.

No, seriously: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10222751&ex_cid=espnapi_public

I'm not sure if it's this way for the other teams with high-profile freshmen, but it seems like the worst sell-out move possible. Basketball, especially college ball is about team play, and this is calling way too much attention to individual stars. What are little kids who are learning to play the game thinking when they watch this stuff? I love Jabari, but this disgusts me.

While I completely agree that it is obnoxious, these freshman and the hype surrounding them are the only reason your average joe watches games on ESPN. Look at ratings from the past few years, before MM, they are so far down. This is a way to get people to watch, I don't like it, but I understand. It's a business, ESPN anyways, the NCAA to most extents as well.

Also, college basketball is not the ultimate team game. Basketball is about stars at every level, and in college they can have even more of an impact if they're outstanding. If we surrounded Jabari with Todd, Nick, Debbie, and a manager and filled the bench with 5 Cameron Crazies who won the lottery, that team would win games, that team would win some games, not in the ACC but at in mid to low major conferences because Jabari would just do everything. You see that kid score 100 points in D-3? He scored all the points, as long as people pass you the ball, you can win. I wouldn't exactly call that teamwork in the Krzyzewski dictionary.

Of course, that was hyperbolic, but basketball can be played without strong teamwork and can be done at a high level without it as well. It's just not optimal and I would NOT WANT DUKE TO PLAY LIKE THAT, but stars draw audiences, which is what ESPN is trying to do. I apologize if the previous paragraph was a little snarky, but I'm still kind of crabby thanks to last night.

TexHawk
01-02-2014, 11:16 AM
I'm not sure if it's this way for the other teams with high-profile freshmen, but it seems like the worst sell-out move possible.
From a fan of another team with high-profile freshmen, it certainly is weird, but understandable. Joel Embiid has been amazing for KU over the last month, but since he doesn't fit ESPN's preseason narrative of Wiggins-Parker-Randle, he doesn't seem to mentioned much at all. Some (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/87385/mark-tituss-college-basketball-mailbag-part-2) folks over there are noticing, but it hasn't hit the mainstream yet.

flyingdutchdevil
01-02-2014, 11:21 AM
From a fan of another team with high-profile freshmen, it certainly is weird, but understandable. Joel Embiid has been amazing for KU over the last month, but since he doesn't fit ESPN's preseason narrative of Wiggins-Parker-Randle, he doesn't seem to mentioned much at all. Some (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/87385/mark-tituss-college-basketball-mailbag-part-2) folks over there are noticing, but it hasn't hit the mainstream yet.

I think a lot of people are noticing about Embiid's potential. He's the #1 and #4 picks on nbadraft.net and draftexpress, respectively. If Jabari is the next Melo, Wiggins the next Paul George, and Randle the next Chris Webber, then Embiid is the next Olajuwon. At least that's what people are saying.

FerryFor50
01-02-2014, 11:36 AM
I think a lot of people are noticing about Embiid's potential. He's the #1 and #4 picks on nbadraft.net and draftexpress, respectively. If Jabari is the next Melo, Wiggins the next Paul George, and Randle the next Chris Webber, then Embiid is the next Olajuwon. At least that's what people are saying.

I see more Serge Ibaka in Embiid than Olajuwon, personally. Embiid will need a lot of work to reach Olajuwon's status.

Also, Randle is way more physical than Webber was. Maybe more Karl Malone than Chris Webber. But I see him as more of a Dajuan Blair type. Better in college than the pros.

flyingdutchdevil
01-02-2014, 11:39 AM
I see more Serge Ibaka in Embiid than Olajuwon, personally. Embiid will need a lot of work to reach Olajuwon's status.

Also, Randle is way more physical than Webber was. Maybe more Karl Malone than Chris Webber. But I see him as more of a Dajuan Blair type. Better in college than the pros.

I agree with you on all points. My post was merely pointing out how the media loves these lofty comparisons.

TexHawk
01-02-2014, 11:52 AM
I think a lot of people are noticing about Embiid's potential. He's the #1 and #4 picks on nbadraft.net and draftexpress, respectively. If Jabari is the next Melo, Wiggins the next Paul George, and Randle the next Chris Webber, then Embiid is the next Olajuwon. At least that's what people are saying.

Oh, no disagreement. The question was couched under the "ESPN Freshman Focus" stuff. If you watch the ESPN ticker, you will always see the KU score, followed by Wiggins stats, even if Embiid outplays him.

flyingdutchdevil
01-02-2014, 12:04 PM
Oh, no disagreement. The question was couched under the "ESPN Freshman Focus" stuff. If you watch the ESPN ticker, you will always see the KU score, followed by Wiggins stats, even if Embiid outplays him.

Yeah. It's a shame, because I feel like Cook, Hood, (now) Dawkins, and many of our other stat guys deserve a lot of credit nationally (everyone deserves credit, but according to the media, stats tell the best story). I'm sure you feel the same about Embiid and Perry "Vice President of the I-Look-40-Years-Old Club" Ellis (Oden is still president of this club).

Indoor66
01-02-2014, 01:14 PM
Isn't amazing that the most ardent Duke fans found Andre to be the player of the game? We love us some Parker, but we know he is but a cog in a much bigger wheel. An important cog, be sure, but only a cog. I bet if you asked Jabari about this, he would agree with me. :cool:

BD80
01-02-2014, 02:07 PM
... Perry "Vice President of the I-Look-40-Years-Old Club" Ellis (Oden is still president of this club).

You are referring to Oden when he was in high school? If not, you should/could bump that number a decade or two.

JasonEvans
01-02-2014, 02:33 PM
You are referring to Oden when he was in high school? If not, you should/could bump that number a decade or two.

http://blacktopxchange.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/greg-oden-heat.jpg

-Jason "he could easily pass for 50 or maybe even 60" Evans

Gthoma2a
01-02-2014, 02:47 PM
http://blacktopxchange.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/greg-oden-heat.jpg

-Jason "he could easily pass for 50 or maybe even 60" Evans

And he's got the knees/ankles to prove it.

ricks68
01-02-2014, 08:28 PM
I had originally thought that he had acromegaly. Seriously. It seemed to fit. Since he hasn't changed much after entering the pro's, I don't know what the deal is.

ricks

tommy
01-02-2014, 10:12 PM
I think a lot of people are noticing about Embiid's potential. He's the #1 and #4 picks on nbadraft.net and draftexpress, respectively. If Jabari is the next Melo, Wiggins the next Paul George, and Randle the next Chris Webber, then Embiid is the next Olajuwon. At least that's what people are saying.

I don't see most of those comps. Jabari has the body of Melo, but at this point Jabari has a more well-rounded game than did Melo, and more importantly, is a far better team player. Randle isn't nearly the passer that Webber was, but he is both strong and nimble with the ball. I see Zach Randolph. As for Embiid, comparing him to a Hall of Famer before he's played what, a dozen college games and started less than that -- well, that's unfair to the kid. Lots of potential, starting to realize a little of it lately, much further along defensively than offensively, and I think it's too early on him to make any meaningful comps.

Des Esseintes
01-02-2014, 10:52 PM
I don't see most of those comps. Jabari has the body of Melo, but at this point Jabari has a more well-rounded game than did Melo, and more importantly, is a far better team player. Randle isn't nearly the passer that Webber was, but he is both strong and nimble with the ball. I see Zach Randolph. As for Embiid, comparing him to a Hall of Famer before he's played what, a dozen college games and started less than that -- well, that's unfair to the kid. Lots of potential, starting to realize a little of it lately, much further along defensively than offensively, and I think it's too early on him to make any meaningful comps.

They're both tall Africans. Play center. Rock-solid likeness if you asked me. Idi Amin was a big guy, generally in the middle of stuff. I suppose he's another possible comp. Then there's the baobab tree: thick-bodied, grows to an imposing height. It's less mobile than Embiid, but I will point out that neither the kid nor a baobab tree have ever been in my kitchen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botdmsQilnU). So they have that in common.

tommy
01-02-2014, 11:03 PM
They're both tall Africans. Play center. Rock-solid likeness if you asked me. Idi Amin was a big guy, generally in the middle of stuff. I suppose he's another possible comp. Then there's the baobab tree: thick-bodied, grows to an imposing height. It's less mobile than Embiid, but I will point out that neither the kid nor a baobab tree have ever been in my kitchen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=botdmsQilnU). So they have that in common.

I remember the Amin kid. About 6'4" out of, what was it, Koboko? Dude had some guns. Would just abuse people inside. Took no prisoners.

Des Esseintes
01-03-2014, 12:04 AM
I remember the Amin kid. About 6'4" out of, what was it, Koboko? Dude had some guns. Would just abuse people inside. Took no prisoners.

"IDI AMIN (http://www.cbv.ns.ca/dictator/Amin.html) WITH NO REGARD FOR HUMAN LIFE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tag9UmmFfY8)!"

kAzE
01-03-2014, 02:33 AM
I don't see most of those comps. Jabari has the body of Melo, but at this point Jabari has a more well-rounded game than did Melo, and more importantly, is a far better team player. Randle isn't nearly the passer that Webber was, but he is both strong and nimble with the ball. I see Zach Randolph. As for Embiid, comparing him to a Hall of Famer before he's played what, a dozen college games and started less than that -- well, that's unfair to the kid. Lots of potential, starting to realize a little of it lately, much further along defensively than offensively, and I think it's too early on him to make any meaningful comps.

Totally agree here. Jabari has Melo's game with the added bonus of being able to make his teammates better. However, I see Jabari developing into a better defensive player than Melo. He's slightly bigger than Melo, and with longer reach. Neither of them are the quickest laterally, so they will always have problems guarding smaller, quicker players, but I see Jabari as a more legitimate combo forward than Melo. It's probably blasphemous to describe a college freshman as a strict upgrade over someone who is considered basketball royalty, but I'm fine with it. He's a better, more versatile version of Melo.

Also agree with the Randle/Randolph comparison, although Randle is way more athletic, and just as much of a bull. He's not as skilled or as smooth as C-Webb, but he does have some crazy athleticism, and above average skill for a big guy. He's an underrated passer, actually. I think he and Parker are surefire perennial all-stars if they stay healthy.

As for Embiid, the Hakeem comparisons actually kind of work. It's obviously not fair to compare him to a hall of famer, but he might just become a poor man's Hakeem. First of all, he's gigantic (7'1", 250), but he moves like a guard. That's rare. Also, he's got a pretty good jumper for someone who is still so new to the game. And then obviously, he's already equipped the Dream Shake in his growing arsenal of moves. Too early to tell, but he's got the potential to be the best pro out of this whole group when it's all said and done.

kAzE
01-03-2014, 02:38 AM
And after having trashed ESPN's obssession with college freshman, I've just created and contributed towards another thread of freshmen-worship. This thing is out of control.

CBecker
01-03-2014, 06:15 AM
Yeh it's really annoying. But it is what it is. As said, it's a great way for them to get casuals excited in the college basketball season. Was watching highlights of an Arizona win a while back, and Aaron Gordon had a quiet game, but they showed like every one of his highlights even if they weren't his usual high flying dunks etc. Whilst some other guy dropped 25 and didn't get a mention.
I don't think it's all bad though, will get a bit tiring to hear them only talk about Jabari, but as a college AND NBA fan, it's pretty exciting for all this talent to be around this season as well.

flyingdutchdevil
01-03-2014, 08:26 AM
I think people on this board are forgetting how good COLLEGE Melo was. NBA Melo is one of a one dimensional player, but COLLEGE Melo was insanely good. Check out these two players:

Player A: 22.2 ppg / 10.0 rpg / 2.2 apg / 0.9 bpg / 1.6 spg / 45.3% FG
Player B: 21.4 ppg / 8.0 rpg / 1.8 apg / 1.3 bpg / 1.1 spg / 52.8% FG

Player A is Melo and Player B is Jabari. Now, Melo played a lot more minutes (over 5 more minutes per game) and Jabari is clearly the more efficient player. However, Melo's stats are very very impressive. Furthermore, Melo LED HIS TEAM TO A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. I want a player like that, and I hope that Jabari has it in him.

I think that COLLEGE Melo and COLLEGE Jabari are very similar players. Jabari is more efficient, but they are equally versatile and both great rebounders. I think the comparisons are incredibly apt.

TexHawk
01-03-2014, 08:47 AM
As for Embiid, comparing him to a Hall of Famer before he's played what, a dozen college games and started less than that -- well, that's unfair to the kid. Lots of potential, starting to realize a little of it lately, much further along defensively than offensively, and I think it's too early on him to make any meaningful comps.

I have to disagree on this point. Embiid can block some shots, yes, but he is constantly out of position, fouls way way way too much (fouls that would be called last year with the old rules too), and despite his size, he can be pushed around a bit. His shot-blocking ability is all just natural talent right now, he can be pump-faked easily, and is very susceptible to a drive and dish. He really needs someone like Danny Manning, who tutored Jeff Withey and Cole Aldrich on the fine art of understanding how to keep your feet on the ground, arms straight up until the last moment. Embiid just flails at everything right now. Good PGs can just drive straight at him and get a foul called very easily.

His offense is much further along. He is close to automatic from 7-8 feet out, with a wide variety of post moves with either hand. He can pop off a screen and hit a 18 footer pretty consistently. His biggest problem is staying on the court, averaging just over 21 mpg. (Though he has played 28-29-25-21-31 minutes in the 5 games since the Bahamas.)

Des Esseintes
01-03-2014, 04:08 PM
I have to disagree on this point. Embiid can block some shots, yes, but he is constantly out of position, fouls way way way too much (fouls that would be called last year with the old rules too), and despite his size, he can be pushed around a bit. His shot-blocking ability is all just natural talent right now, he can be pump-faked easily, and is very susceptible to a drive and dish. He really needs someone like Danny Manning, who tutored Jeff Withey and Cole Aldrich on the fine art of understanding how to keep your feet on the ground, arms straight up until the last moment. Embiid just flails at everything right now. Good PGs can just drive straight at him and get a foul called very easily.

His offense is much further along. He is close to automatic from 7-8 feet out, with a wide variety of post moves with either hand. He can pop off a screen and hit a 18 footer pretty consistently. His biggest problem is staying on the court, averaging just over 21 mpg. (Though he has played 28-29-25-21-31 minutes in the 5 games since the Bahamas.)

Those are actually pretty impressive minutes totals for a freshman center, especially for a player with such limited experience in basketball. It's easy to understand the hype.

Des Esseintes
01-03-2014, 04:14 PM
I think people on this board are forgetting how good COLLEGE Melo was. NBA Melo is one of a one dimensional player, but COLLEGE Melo was insanely good. Check out these two players:

Player A: 22.2 ppg / 10.0 rpg / 2.2 apg / 0.9 bpg / 1.6 spg / 45.3% FG
Player B: 21.4 ppg / 8.0 rpg / 1.8 apg / 1.3 bpg / 1.1 spg / 52.8% FG

Player A is Melo and Player B is Jabari. Now, Melo played a lot more minutes (over 5 more minutes per game) and Jabari is clearly the more efficient player. However, Melo's stats are very very impressive. Furthermore, Melo LED HIS TEAM TO A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP. I want a player like that, and I hope that Jabari has it in him.

I think that COLLEGE Melo and COLLEGE Jabari are very similar players. Jabari is more efficient, but they are equally versatile and both great rebounders. I think the comparisons are incredibly apt.

Great info. I would also say that Anthony isn't quite the one-dimensional player people often think. He is a lazy, bad defender, but he has always rebounded well for his position, particularly at small forward. Moreover, while he dominates the ball, he can be an effective team player under the right circumstances. Many of his Denver teams and especially last year's Knicks were tremendous offensive teams, and they fed off not only Anthony's scoring potency but also his ability to draw attention and hit the open man. A selfish player--and by many accounts not a great person generally--but possessed of a more varied game than is popular to say in the context of the radioactive wasteland that is Knick basketball this year.

kAzE
01-03-2014, 09:40 PM
Great info. I would also say that Anthony isn't quite the one-dimensional player people often think. He is a lazy, bad defender, but he has always rebounded well for his position, particularly at small forward. Moreover, while he dominates the ball, he can be an effective team player under the right circumstances. Many of his Denver teams and especially last year's Knicks were tremendous offensive teams, and they fed off not only Anthony's scoring potency but also his ability to draw attention and hit the open man. A selfish player--and by many accounts not a great person generally--but possessed of a more varied game than is popular to say in the context of the radioactive wasteland that is Knick basketball this year.

Melo is the ultimate #2 guy. On team USA, when he was playing with LeBron, he got wide open shots all the time. He was incredibly efficient, and I think he actually led the team in scoring. He just can't carry a team by himself the way LeBron can.

FerryFor50
01-03-2014, 09:57 PM
Melo is the ultimate #2 guy. On team USA, when he was playing with LeBron, he got wide open shots all the time. He was incredibly efficient, and I think he actually led the team in scoring. He just can't carry a team by himself the way LeBron can.

That's because it would require him to pass. ;)