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Duvall
12-20-2013, 11:55 AM
UNC will not seek to have Hairston reinstated. (http://www.goheels.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=3350&ATCLID=209345978)


The University of North Carolina will not seek reinstatement from the NCAA for men's basketball junior guard P.J. Hairston. The Greensboro, N.C., native has already sat out 10 games this season due to eligibility issues.

"Unfortunately P.J. made a number of mistakes that placed his eligibility at risk and the University's joint review with the NCAA made it clear that seeking reinstatement for P.J. would not be possible," says director of athletics Bubba Cunningham. "The University thanks him for his contributions to Carolina Basketball."

FerryFor50
12-20-2013, 12:15 PM
UNC will not seek to have Hairston reinstated. (http://www.goheels.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=3350&ATCLID=209345978)

It's a Christmas miracle!

-bdbd
12-20-2013, 12:17 PM
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW............. SEEEEEEE - YA!!!!

;)



Well, and IC faithful rejoice as they now have a built-in excuse for when the team falls short again...

lotusland
12-20-2013, 12:20 PM
So time to move in to Roy's "rental" crib?

tommy
12-20-2013, 12:24 PM
PJ got what he deserved, but in all honesty, I'm not sure that it's going to make all that much difference in terms of how Carolina's season plays out. And I know, he'd have been their best outside shooter, but still. With or without PJ, it sure seems like Carolina is/was going to be a very inconsistent team, a team capable of impressive highs and humiliating lows. They're playing a lot of guys, trying to find combinations, trying to figure out roles, and I just don't think PJ's presence would have changed much of that. McDonald can shoot it, Paige can shoot it, so sure PJ would be another shooter, but most of Carolina's issues -- on both ends of the floor -- would remain even were he to have been reinstated. They're still a team that if they get their heads together could make a run (not all the way, but a solid run) in March, or they could go the other direction and be a marginal NCAA team. And that would've been true with PJ as well.

PSurprise
12-20-2013, 12:26 PM
I hear they might have a video coordinator position opening up soon

CDu
12-20-2013, 12:29 PM
PJ got what he deserved, but in all honesty, I'm not sure that it's going to make all that much difference in terms of how Carolina's season plays out. And I know, he'd have been their best outside shooter, but still. With or without PJ, it sure seems like Carolina is/was going to be a very inconsistent team, a team capable of impressive highs and humiliating lows. They're playing a lot of guys, trying to find combinations, trying to figure out roles, and I just don't think PJ's presence would have changed much of that. McDonald can shoot it, Paige can shoot it, so sure PJ would be another shooter, but most of Carolina's issues -- on both ends of the floor -- would remain even were he to have been reinstated. They're still a team that if they get their heads together could make a run (not all the way, but a solid run) in March, or they could go the other direction and be a marginal NCAA team. And that would've been true with PJ as well.

I disagree. With Hairston, UNC has two 1st/2nd All-ACC caliber scorers in Paige (shocking, but it appears to be true) and Hairston, along with X-factor types like McAdoo, Johnson, and McDonald. So on any given night there are two guys on the floor that you absolutely have to account for defensively.

Without Hairston, they really need those X-factors to move into a more leading role. If you handle Paige and don't hand them easy scores inside, they are a pretty pedestrian team.

They would have been inconsistent even with Hairston. But without Hairston, their ceiling drops substantially.

tommy
12-20-2013, 12:33 PM
I disagree. With Hairston, UNC has two 1st/2nd All-ACC caliber scorers in Paige (shocking, but it appears to be true) and Hairston, along with X-factor types like McAdoo, Johnson, and McDonald. So on any given night there are two guys on the floor that you absolutely have to account for defensively.

Without Hairston, they really need those X-factors to move into a more leading role. If you handle Paige and don't hand them easy scores inside, they are a pretty pedestrian team.

They would have been inconsistent even with Hairston. But without Hairston, their ceiling drops substantially.

IIRC, Hairston was not 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC last season. I seriously doubt had he come in cold in the middle of the season that he would've played at an all-ACC level this year either. He's a one dimensional player, and while I'm not denying he's a solid shooter, Carolina's offense seems to me to be pretty similar regardless of his presence. You still have to worry about Paige, McAdoo, Johnson, and McDonald, as well as a couple of other x-factor types, so Hairston would've been one more of them, that's all.

Kedsy
12-20-2013, 12:34 PM
I disagree. With Hairston, UNC has two 1st/2nd All-ACC caliber scorers in Paige (shocking, but it appears to be true) and Hairston, along with X-factor types like McAdoo, Johnson, and McDonald. So on any given night there are two guys on the floor that you absolutely have to account for defensively.

Without Hairston, they really need those X-factors to move into a more leading role. If you handle Paige and don't hand them easy scores inside, they are a pretty pedestrian team.

They would have been inconsistent even with Hairston. But without Hairston, their ceiling drops substantially.

I completely agree with CDu here. PJ was UNC's best player. It's like saying Hood, Cook, and Sulaimon are good, slashing scorers, so Duke wouldn't play any better or worse whether Jabari Parker played or not. And, no, I'm not saying PJ is as good as Jabari; I'm saying that you can't take away a team's best player and say the team will perform the same whether he's there or not.

luburch
12-20-2013, 12:34 PM
I was trying to think of a gun related pun but I kept drawing blanks.

Kedsy
12-20-2013, 12:39 PM
IIRC, Hairston was not 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC last season. I seriously doubt had he come in cold in the middle of the season that he would've played at an all-ACC level this year either. He's a one dimensional player, and while I'm not denying he's a solid shooter, Carolina's offense seems to me to be pretty similar regardless of his presence. You still have to worry about Paige, McAdoo, Johnson, and McDonald, as well as a couple of other x-factor types, so Hairston would've been one more of them, that's all.

Well, other than McAdoo, nobody currently in the ACC was first or second team all-ACC last season. Of returning players, PJ would have been the fifth-leading vote-getter in last year's all-ACC voting.

Also, he's been practicing with the team, hasn't he? He wouldn't have really been coming in cold.

It's not unexpected at this point, but it's a big loss for Heeldom.

TKG
12-20-2013, 12:41 PM
It's a Christmas miracle!

I think you meant a Festivus Miracle.

Duvall
12-20-2013, 12:52 PM
IIRC, Hairston was not 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC last season. I seriously doubt had he come in cold in the middle of the season that he would've played at an all-ACC level this year either. He's a one dimensional player, and while I'm not denying he's a solid shooter, Carolina's offense seems to me to be pretty similar regardless of his presence. You still have to worry about Paige, McAdoo, Johnson, and McDonald, as well as a couple of other x-factor types, so Hairston would've been one more of them, that's all.

Hairston was the second-best player on an average team, so all-ACC honors would have been a stretch. But his second-half of the season positioned him to be an elite player for UNC this season before he decided to toss away his college career.

CDu
12-20-2013, 12:53 PM
IIRC, Hairston was not 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC last season. I seriously doubt had he come in cold in the middle of the season that he would've played at an all-ACC level this year either. He's a one dimensional player, and while I'm not denying he's a solid shooter, Carolina's offense seems to me to be pretty similar regardless of his presence. You still have to worry about Paige, McAdoo, Johnson, and McDonald, as well as a couple of other x-factor types, so Hairston would've been one more of them, that's all.

Hairston was only off the All-ACC team last year because Williams inexplicably kept him out of the starting lineup (and limited his playing time) until midway through the season. It wasn't until the Duke game that Williams committed to "small ball", moving Hairston into the starting lineup for good. From that time on (nearly half the season), Hairston averaged 18.2 ppg and 5.5 rpg in 30.5 mpg. Once Williams woke up and starting playing Hairston, it was clear that Hairston was UNC's best (or at worst second-best) player. And he was without question their best returning player.

And he's not one-dimensional. Yes, he's a terrific shooter. He's also a terrific slasher and finisher off the dribble. He's a fairly decent rebounder as well for a perimeter player. He would have been one of the 5 best offensive players in the conference. He's the type of guy you can hand the ball and he can score in a variety of ways without help from a PG. That's a HUGE loss for a team that lacks capable playmakers.

And he wouldn't have been "coming in cold." He's been practicing with the team for months.

BD80
12-20-2013, 12:57 PM
So we'll never get the full story. Figures.

We won't even get to find out how many games he would have been suspended and the "value" (de-value?) of the impermissible benefits he was CAUGHT receiving.

With PJ safely under the bus, and Leslie "freed" after 8 games - with no consequence for endorsing or using at least one custom ($1500) mouthguard - the inquiry into any connection between Fats and other heels is OVER.

ol' roy is disappointed for poor PJ, at least I think that's what he said, the grinding of the bus gears was pretty loud.

unc won't even TRY to get PJ back into uniform, why not even try???????

CDu
12-20-2013, 12:57 PM
Hairston was the second-best player on an average team, so all-ACC honors would have been a stretch. But his second-half of the season positioned him to be an elite player for UNC this season before he decided to toss away his college career.

Slight quibble here: Hairston was probably the best player on that average team last year. And since the third-best player (McAdoo) made 2nd Team All-ACC, it is not a stretch that Hairston should have made All-ACC.

jv001
12-20-2013, 12:58 PM
Link: www.northcarolina.scout.com/2/1358892.html. ole roy says that pj was called a perfect teammate by one of our other players. That player must have been McDonald. GoDuke!

MChambers
12-20-2013, 01:05 PM
Wonder if he'll move in with Will Graves?

BD80
12-20-2013, 01:06 PM
Link: www.northcarolina.scout.com/2/1358892.html. ...

"We first learned of this situation back in the summer and getting to this point took a great deal of time because the University, the NCAA and P.J.'s family took great care to learn as many of the facts as were possible to learn."

Of course, unc probably had advised PJ to say nothing so that few of the facts would be learned.

sagegrouse
12-20-2013, 01:10 PM
IIRC, Hairston was not 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all-ACC last season. I seriously doubt had he come in cold in the middle of the season that he would've played at an all-ACC level this year either. He's a one dimensional player, and while I'm not denying he's a solid shooter, Carolina's offense seems to me to be pretty similar regardless of his presence. You still have to worry about Paige, McAdoo, Johnson, and McDonald, as well as a couple of other x-factor types, so Hairston would've been one more of them, that's all.

He was Honorable Mention, and from the order of listing, appears to be about three places from being third team. He ranked just above Ryan Kelly, who missed 13 ACC games due to injury.

sage

Newton_14
12-20-2013, 01:12 PM
So we'll never get the full story. Figures.

We won't even get to find out how many games he would have been suspended and the "value" (de-value?) of the impermissible benefits he was CAUGHT receiving.

With PJ safely under the bus, and Leslie "freed" after 8 games - with no consequence for endorsing or using at least one custom ($1500) mouthguard - the inquiry into any connection between Fats and other heels is OVER.

ol' roy is disappointed for poor PJ, at least I think that's what he said, the grinding of the bus gears was pretty loud.

unc won't even TRY to get PJ back into uniform, why not even try???????

In my opinion, UNC has known for sometime that PJ was gone and Leslie was getting 30%, and like most suspected they kept PJ around long enough to finish the semester and not hurt the APR. Why make him practice and go through the charade of "we are working with/waiting on/being delayed by the NCAA and hope to have PJ back soon". Hogwash. It was all a game. Chapel Hill Mafia strikes again.

Notice too how most articles have the Faulcone kid being "Suspended for 9 games" and Leslie McDonald was "cleared to play after being held out 9 games by the University"

CameronBlue
12-20-2013, 01:18 PM
I was trying to think of a gun related pun but I kept drawing blanks.

A parody of Queen's hit as Roy tosses "another one under the bus" would do nicely.

And yes, it is perfectly acceptable to now ridicule Roy for abandoning PJ after months of ripping him for not kicking PJ off the team immediately.

CDu
12-20-2013, 01:19 PM
He was Honorable Mention, and from the order of listing, appears to be about three places from being third team. He ranked just above Ryan Kelly, who missed 13 ACC games due to injury.

sage

Hairston's stats before Williams finally woke up and committed to small ball (which allowed Hairston to actually play major minutes): 23 games, 19.2 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 3.6 rpg. After Williams put Hairston in the starting lineup: 13 games, 30.8 mpg, 18.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg.

For whatever reason, Williams couldn't figure out that Hairston was probably his best player until over halfway through the season. He finally figured it out and played Hairston leading player's minutes, and Hairston produced.

Had Williams not been so stubborn about his lineup for the first half of the year, I have zero doubt that Hairston would have been All-ACC last year. But because the ACC voters are count-stats driven, Hairston's limited minutes early in the year kept him off the list.

But make no mistake: he was one of the 5 or 10 best offensive players in the conference last year. And he would have been one of the 5 best offensive players in the conference this year had he played. HUGE loss for UNC.

BD80
12-20-2013, 01:25 PM
... Had Williams not been so stubborn about his lineup for the first half of the year, I have zero doubt that Hairston would have been All-ACC last year. But because the ACC voters are count-stats driven, Hairston's limited minutes early in the year kept him off the list.

But make no mistake: he was one of the 5 or 10 best offensive players in the conference last year. And he would have been one of the 5 best offensive players in the conference this year had he played. HUGE loss for UNC.

But convenient excuse for ol' roy. If the NCAA hadn't taken so long, the ordeal would not have been so disruptive and his team would have been more consistent. It is so dadgum hard to concentrate with the specter of the NCAA lurking.

At year end, he will be able to wistfully speculate how much more successful they might have been if the NCAA hadn't robbed him of his best player.

sagegrouse
12-20-2013, 01:28 PM
In my opinion, UNC has known for sometime that PJ was gone and Leslie was getting 30%, and like most suspected they kept PJ around long enough to finish the semester and not hurt the APR. Why make him practice and go through the charade of "we are working with/waiting on/being delayed by the NCAA and hope to have PJ back soon". Hogwash. It was all a game. Chapel Hill Mafia strikes again.

Notice too how most articles have the Faulcone kid being "Suspended for 9 games" and Leslie McDonald was "cleared to play after being held out 9 games by the University"

Naw! It was a negotiation strategy. P.J. was the supposed treasure for whom UNC was ready to fall on its sword, even though his sins were many. The Heels were using PJ to get a better deal on Leslie McDonald. In the end, UNC said, "We'll give up on PJ, but only if you accept our estimates of the impermissible benefits for LMcD." UNC probably got his games missed reduced to nine from possibly twice that many.

sage

Kedsy
12-20-2013, 01:28 PM
But convenient excuse for ol' roy. If the NCAA hadn't taken so long, the ordeal would not have been so disruptive and his team would have been more consistent. It is so dadgum hard to concentrate with the specter of the NCAA lurking.

At year end, he will be able to wistfully speculate how much more successful they might have been if the NCAA hadn't robbed him of his best player.

I'll be happy to read his wistful speculation after a UNC first round NCAAT loss.

BD80
12-20-2013, 01:31 PM
I'll be happy to read his wistful speculation after a UNC first round NCAAT loss.

That's spelled N-I-T

wilko
12-20-2013, 01:35 PM
Wonder if he'll move in with Will Graves?

I have to wonder if Graves issues came at a REALLY REALLY bad time and influenced the decision.

The UNC AD/Chancellor as a result took the decision out of Roy's hands and made a University decision (These clowns wont stop calling me..) as opposed to a basketball decision.

Kedsy
12-20-2013, 01:38 PM
I have to wonder if Graves issues came at a REALLY REALLY bad time and influenced the decision.

The UNC AD/Chancellor as a result took the decision out of Roy's hands and made a University decision (These clowns wont stop calling me..) as opposed to a basketball decision.

I assume this decision was made a long time ago. UNC was trying to weasel their way out of it and finally gave up as part of the McDonald negotiation.

luburch
12-20-2013, 01:52 PM
A parody of Queen's hit as Roy tosses "another one under the bus" would do nicely.


What about Steve Miller's "Take the Money and Run"... or in this case drive away in a luxury vehicle you don't own.

Matches
12-20-2013, 02:04 PM
unc won't even TRY to get PJ back into uniform, why not even try???????

Because they know, through informal conversations with the NCAA, that a petition for reinstatement will not be granted. It would be a (further) waste of time for everyone involved.

McDonald's application was filed once UNC had reason to believe it would be granted.

I do agree with Newton_14, though, that it's awfully convenient for all this to finally play out right at the end of the semester. If UNC has been confident for some time that a reinstatement was not in the cards for PJ, they should've told him so he could get started playing overseas, or whatever it is he will do next. Maybe they DID tell him and he chose to finish the semester, but it's odd to keep him practicing with the team if all involved know he's done playing.

Newton_14
12-20-2013, 02:13 PM
Because they know, through informal conversations with the NCAA, that a petition for reinstatement will not be granted. It would be a (further) waste of time for everyone involved.

McDonald's application was filed once UNC had reason to believe it would be granted.

I do agree with Newton_14, though, that it's awfully convenient for all this to finally play out right at the end of the semester. If UNC has been confident for some time that a reinstatement was not in the cards for PJ, they should've told him so he could get started playing overseas, or whatever it is he will do next. Maybe they DID tell him and he chose to finish the semester, but it's odd to keep him practicing with the team if all involved know he's done playing.

This UNC article gives credence to our thought process.

"PJ's Fate Sealed Almost Two Months Ago" (http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/1358921.html)

PSurprise
12-20-2013, 02:19 PM
So is PJ technically a free agent now? Can he/Does he sign with a pro team, or does UNC try to keep him in school to save the APR? Wuddy'all think he's gonna do?

Duvall
12-20-2013, 02:22 PM
In my opinion, UNC has known for sometime that PJ was gone and Leslie was getting 30%, and like most suspected they kept PJ around long enough to finish the semester and not hurt the APR. Why make him practice and go through the charade of "we are working with/waiting on/being delayed by the NCAA and hope to have PJ back soon". Hogwash. It was all a game. Chapel Hill Mafia strikes again.

Maybe, but doesn't that only work if UNC assumes Hairston will leave school as soon as it's clear that he isn't getting back on the court, and is misleading Hairston about his chances? I mean, there's nothing preventing Hairston from finishing out the semester or the year at UNC regardless of when he is determined to be ineligible.

Matches
12-20-2013, 02:23 PM
So is PJ technically a free agent now? Can he/Does he sign with a pro team, or does UNC try to keep him in school to save the APR? Wuddy'all think he's gonna do?

Most likely he will play overseas next spring and then enter the 2014 NBA Draft. I'm sure he wishes he'd declared for the 2013 Draft.

Dr. Rosenrosen
12-20-2013, 02:28 PM
Not that he has any incentive to do so, but I wonder if he'll end up talking now that he's been used and finally cut loose...

HaveFunExpectToWin
12-20-2013, 02:30 PM
UNC is now officially #PJ_Free

Newton_14
12-20-2013, 02:34 PM
Maybe, but doesn't that only work if UNC assumes Hairston will leave school as soon as it's clear that he isn't getting back on the court, and is misleading Hairston about his chances? I mean, there's nothing preventing Hairston from finishing out the semester or the year at UNC regardless of when he is determined to be ineligible.

Agree. Just not sure what incentive he has to stay on if he is kicked off the team and no longer practicing etc. Maybe he stays on maybe not. In reading the article I linked, and another article linked inside of that one, there were several interesting points. Bubba wanted to dismiss PJ for good in July, but Roy said no. UNC knew two months ago that there was no way he would play again, but decided to package their announcement of PJ together with their announcement of Leslie. The NCAA originally wanted Leslie to sit 18 games, UNC negotiated that down to 9.

A few key snippets from the article


While the details that would ultimately dictate Hairston’s fate became clear
after those Oct. 24 interviews, UNC intended to package the decision along with
Leslie McDonald’s case once it was resolved. According to sources, UNC and the
NCAA went back and forth on the length of McDonald’s suspension over a period of
weeks. The


In the report was the acknowledgement that "McDonald’s reinstatement request is
the only one the NCAA has received from North Carolina.” This highlights the key
distinction in how UNC handled its investigation of Hairston. According to
sources, UNC intended to control and rule on the Hairston investigation and
decision itself, rather than leave it solely in the hands of the NCAA.

bob blue devil
12-20-2013, 02:50 PM
Y'all have the spin wrong. PJ has finally been cleared by the NCAA to pursue other opportunities.

BD80
12-20-2013, 02:51 PM
Not that he has any incentive to do so, but I wonder if he'll end up talking now that he's been used and finally cut loose...

And give up ol' roy's ex-player benefit package? Rent free use of 1/2 million $ estate on the golf course + ??????

We will never know the extent of excess benefits ol roy provides, because dadgummit, it's nobody's business!

4Gen
12-20-2013, 02:51 PM
What the 5:00 practice session had to do with PJ's situation is beyond me, but it must have been relevant because ole Roy mentioned it several times. No matter the setting, Roy's shtick always includes his self described Clint Eastwood badass impersonation. It's always about Roy.

4Gen
12-20-2013, 03:22 PM
P.J. Hairston Family Statement - Friday, December 20, 2013:

We are displeased with the University of North Carolina’s decision not to submit the necessary paperwork to the NCAA requesting to have P.J. reinstated. This process has been long, and for to end without having a final decision from the governing body is a shame. Ultimately this affects P.J., and his eligibility to play Division 1 collegiate basketball for the remainder of this season, as well as next season.

Despite our disappointment, we wish the team continued success.

P.J. will be making an announcement about his future plans within the next few weeks. For now, we respectfully ask the media to refrain from contacting us, so that they can enjoy a peaceful holiday season at home.

Well now. It seems the UNC administration basically strung PJ out and lied to him, and even persuaded Bilas that the NCAA was the foot-dragging culprit.
Something's rotten in Orange County. It's foreseeable that this action may impact much about the program in months and even years to come.

Dr. Rosenrosen
12-20-2013, 03:44 PM
P.J. Hairston Family Statement - Friday, December 20, 2013:

We are displeased with the University of North Carolina’s decision not to submit the necessary paperwork to the NCAA requesting to have P.J. reinstated. This process has been long, and for to end without having a final decision from the governing body is a shame. Ultimately this affects P.J., and his eligibility to play Division 1 collegiate basketball for the remainder of this season, as well as next season.

Despite our disappointment, we wish the team continued success.

P.J. will be making an announcement about his future plans within the next few weeks. For now, we respectfully ask the media to refrain from contacting us, so that they can enjoy a peaceful holiday season at home.

Well now. It seems the UNC administration basically strung PJ out and lied to him, and even persuaded Bilas that the NCAA was the foot-dragging culprit.
Something's rotten in Orange County. It's foreseeable that this action may impact much about the program in months and even years to come.
Hmmmmm... now that is interesting. Does make you wonder at what point the anger boils over and he starts talking.

Duvall
12-20-2013, 03:52 PM
Hmmmmm... now that is interesting. Does make you wonder at what point the anger boils over and he starts talking.

Hairston is still practicing with the team, so he may not share his family's anger.

Kedsy
12-20-2013, 04:11 PM
Hairston is still practicing with the team, so he may not share his family's anger.

I heard he practiced yesterday, but you think he's still practicing today???

richardjackson199
12-20-2013, 04:17 PM
This whole thing is showing a pattern of gross impermissable benefits at UNC. From the football mess, academic scandal, Roy renting expensive house for Will Graves to smoke his weed; to Leslie McDonald receiving multiple impermissable benefits, to PJ lying and receiving so many benefits that he has to be dismissed from team; this is pitiful. Given everything, the Carolina Way is dead and apparently has been for some time. I think Roy and UNC athletics should have the book thrown at them by the NCAA for loss of institutional control. Roy is responsible for knowing about benefits received by his players. It's looking more like a pattern than isolated incident. And what is pathetic is UNC's continued lack of taking responsibility, minimizing (oh what an outstanding young man who made some mistakes), and continued damage-control approach which resembles cover-up. What kind of message does this send to the student-athletes? It seems like they're sending the message - "don't get caught." UNC-Cheat is more appropriate. If I was a UNC fan, I'd be embarrassed and appalled.

gam7
12-20-2013, 04:24 PM
In the picture of Hairston on the front page, I believe that's Harry Gilles III, the stud 2016 prospect in the background.

Troublemaker
12-20-2013, 04:25 PM
UNC fans must be devastated, I'd imagine. Those wins against Louisville, Kentucky, and Mich St ratcheted up the importance of when/if Hairston could return. Hard not to dream about contending for a Final Four and conference titles with PJ in the lineup, whether that would've been too optimistic or not. Now, to have that snatched away. Couldn't have happened to a nicer fanbase.

Interesting that UNC gave up on re-instatement but the family did not. Was there something PJ was involved with that UNC did not want to be made public, or the NCAA to dig deeper into? PJ's case file is probably more interesting than McDonald's.

arnie
12-20-2013, 04:28 PM
What the 5:00 practice session had to do with PJ's situation is beyond me, but it must have been relevant because ole Roy mentioned it several times. No matter the setting, Roy's shtick always includes his self described Clint Eastwood badass impersonation. It's always about Roy.

Heard Roy's comments including- this is worst situation that he's faced as a coach. I guess if his other tribulations were "Haiti or Philippines tsunami like" then this PJ incident is comparable to the great plagues in Europe, potato famines, etc. A poster called him a douche bag, I think that's slandering all other douche bags.

Kedsy
12-20-2013, 04:28 PM
Interesting that UNC gave up on re-instatement but the family did not. Was there something PJ was involved with that UNC did not want to be made public, or the NCAA to dig deeper into?

Nah, it's probably as simple as the NCAA said you have no chance to win the appeal. It's possible giving up on PJ was part of the deal to drop McDonald's games down from 18 to 9.

oldnavy
12-20-2013, 04:40 PM
I heard he practiced yesterday, but you think he's still practicing today???

Can you continue to practice if you are removed from the team??? This makes no sense to me. First, I can see why PJ may want to practice (stay in BB shape and keep skills up), but if he is deemed ineligible, then why would he be allowed to still be a "part" of the team? He would continue to benefit, and UNC would continue to benefit since he would be a great practice player to use in prep for the starters....

Maybe there is no rule against who can and cannot practice with the team, but it sure would seem odd if a kid can be booted off the team, yet still practice with them...

FerryFor50
12-20-2013, 04:42 PM
Hairston's stats before Williams finally woke up and committed to small ball (which allowed Hairston to actually play major minutes): 23 games, 19.2 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 3.6 rpg. After Williams put Hairston in the starting lineup: 13 games, 30.8 mpg, 18.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg.

For whatever reason, Williams couldn't figure out that Hairston was probably his best player until over halfway through the season. He finally figured it out and played Hairston leading player's minutes, and Hairston produced.

Had Williams not been so stubborn about his lineup for the first half of the year, I have zero doubt that Hairston would have been All-ACC last year. But because the ACC voters are count-stats driven, Hairston's limited minutes early in the year kept him off the list.

But make no mistake: he was one of the 5 or 10 best offensive players in the conference last year. And he would have been one of the 5 best offensive players in the conference this year had he played. HUGE loss for UNC.

Agreed. But I'll add this - while PJ would have been their best outside shooter, he wasn't *just* a shooter. He was able to slash and was a strong finisher, as well as a solid defender and rebounder. He would have filled many holes for the Holes.

I wonder what he'll do with all that free time (http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2013/7/28/4566576/pj-hairston-reckless-driving-citation)? Maybe hang out with Will Graves?

oldnavy
12-20-2013, 04:49 PM
Although I think he nails, he didn't call out UNC as much as I would have. No body is looking good in this mess.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24382287/pj-hairstons-family-doesnt-realize-he-real-shame-here

CameronBornAndBred
12-20-2013, 04:49 PM
"We first learned of this situation back in the summer and getting to this point took a great deal of time because the University, the NCAA and P.J.'s family took great care to learn as many of the facts as were possible to learn."

Of course, unc probably had advised PJ to say nothing so that few of the facts would be learned.
The biggest fact they learned was that they could beat top 10 teams without him on the court.

weezie
12-20-2013, 04:56 PM
Can you continue to practice if you are removed from the team???

Not that I give a toot but is there any avenue for him to play some kind of organized ball anywhere right now?
Haha, maybe he can be Dennis Rodman's video coordinator in North Korea. Yeah, that sounds good.

But can he get on any kind of a team at this point?

FerryFor50
12-20-2013, 04:59 PM
Not that I give a toot but is there any avenue for him to play some kind of organized ball anywhere right now?
Haha, maybe he can be Dennis Rodman's video coordinator in North Korea. Yeah, that sounds good.

But can he get on any kind of a team at this point?

Maybe I can get him to play on my rec league team. Selling point: no drug testing! Heck, I'll even throw in a car rental or two.

Duvall
12-20-2013, 05:49 PM
I heard he practiced yesterday, but you think he's still practicing today???

That's what the beat writer for the Daily Tar Heel said.

I don't think Hairston has been removed from the team - he's just not eligible to play. His status is probably like that of Enes Kanter during the year he was at Kentucky.

subzero02
12-20-2013, 05:56 PM
Hairston's stats before Williams finally woke up and committed to small ball (which allowed Hairston to actually play major minutes): 23 games, 19.2 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 3.6 rpg. After Williams put Hairston in the starting lineup: 13 games, 30.8 mpg, 18.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg.

For whatever reason, Williams couldn't figure out that Hairston was probably his best player until over halfway through the season. He finally figured it out and played Hairston leading player's minutes, and Hairston produced.

Had Williams not been so stubborn about his lineup for the first half of the year, I have zero doubt that Hairston would have been All-ACC last year. But because the ACC voters are count-stats driven, Hairston's limited minutes early in the year kept him off the list.

But make no mistake: he was one of the 5 or 10 best offensive players in the conference last year. And he would have been one of the 5 best offensive players in the conference this year had he played. HUGE loss for UNC.

Interesting numbers... His minutes went up approximately 50 percent which led to proportional increases in points, rebounds and assists...

CDu
12-20-2013, 07:16 PM
Agreed. But I'll add this - while PJ would have been their best outside shooter, he wasn't *just* a shooter. He was able to slash and was a strong finisher, as well as a solid defender and rebounder. He would have filled many holes for the Holes.

I wonder what he'll do with all that free time (http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2013/7/28/4566576/pj-hairston-reckless-driving-citation)? Maybe hang out with Will Graves?

Yeah, I mentioned that in an earlier post too. He was one of the most versatile scorers in th ACC.


Interesting numbers... His minutes went up approximately 50 percent which led to proportional increases in points, rebounds and assists...

Yeah, he was playing really well in limited minutes. Williams finally realized Hairston should play more, so he played PJ more. And Hairston just continued to play really well with the added minutes.

devildeac
12-20-2013, 07:46 PM
It's a Christmas miracle!

And some folks thought I had ruined Christmas last PM:rolleyes:;) .

-jk
12-20-2013, 08:07 PM
And some folks thought I had ruined Christmas last PM:rolleyes:;) .

Well, you tried!

-jk

devildeac
12-20-2013, 08:16 PM
Well, you tried!

-jk

Bah, humbug! (kidding, kidding)

duke4ever19
12-20-2013, 08:42 PM
This is a fine time to summarize what has been going on over at UNC the last several years.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/12/19/2553041/whos-who-in-the-unc-chapel-hill.html

ncexnyc
12-20-2013, 08:57 PM
Based on the Kanter ruling, I find it hard to see how PJ could still be practicing with the team.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest+News/2011/January/Kanter+ruled+permanently+ineligible

OldPhiKap
12-20-2013, 09:29 PM
Based on the Kanter ruling, I find it hard to see how PJ could still be practicing with the team.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest+News/2011/January/Kanter+ruled+permanently+ineligible

And based on the statement put out by PJ's family, I doubt he will anyway.

Could get ugly.

Dukehky
12-20-2013, 09:39 PM
It sounds like the more powerful institution kind of hung the kid out to dry. I'm not really thrilled with the whole celebratory nature that a lot of people have taken on this decision. A kid's college career has just essentially ended. Yeah, he did stupid things, probably more stupid than most people would have done but he's still just a kid, who got very little support from an institution he gave 2 years of hard work to. Also, I've been given infractions before while playfully indicating that I wished blank player would fall over in warm-ups and be out for the game (obviously a joke), but it's okay to wish that kids from other schools make boneheaded moves and are punished in ways in which they have no recourse? I know it's not exactly the same, this whole thing just kind of rubs me the wrong way. The NCAA and college administrations are, for the most part, bullies who will do anything to protect themselves and each other, while not hesitating to drop the hammer on kids. Duke has done the same thing, that was a while ago now, and it was a completely different scenario, but Duke kicked those lacrosse kids out of school to cover its backside. Well, with all the lawsuits, it came back to bite them in the I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. a little bit, and I hope PJ gets a little retribution at UNC too.

UNC wouldn't even try to get him reinstated, not even a shot in the dark effort? If I were Hairston, and UNC did anything wrong that he knew about, I would tell the NCAA every single thing I knew.

I hope he has a solid career in the league because he's got a lot of talent, and I hope he grows up, because he needs to.

I'm sure this isn't going to be a very popular sentiment, and all the fun puns people use are understandable, and it happened to a rival school that has had a lot of problems in this area before, but we are just railing on a kid who made a mistake, even a series of mistakes, which makes the razzing more understandable. I just wanted to get my opinion on the matter out there before we forget all about this in a few weeks. I'm not surprised PJ is done, and would have been more understanding if HIS SCHOOL HAD EVEN TRIED TO TAKE A LONG SHOT TO GET HIM REINSTATED. If you want to trash somebody, trash UNC and the adminstration, not the kid. He's been punished enough (I know, he's probably not reading the thread, but you know, bad vibes coming from DBR can really ruin somebody's day)/

sagegrouse
12-20-2013, 09:39 PM
And based on the statement put out by PJ's family, I doubt he will anyway.

Could get ugly.

This could be a bit of a squabble, OR -- Ol' Grouse being the suspicious sort -- it could a pas de deux arranged in advance.

(a) UNC doesn't want the horrid details of PJ and his escapades to come out, so it does not request a reinstatement.

(b) PJ and his family want to maintain a figleaf of innocence so they pronounce themselves truly upset, even spitting mad, that UNC did not request a reinstatement, thereby ending the college career he did not intend to pursue.

Plausible?

sage

Furniture
12-20-2013, 09:50 PM
This could be a bit of a squabble, OR -- Ol' Grouse being the suspicious sort -- it could a pas de deux arranged in advance.

(a) UNC doesn't want the horrid details of PJ and his escapades to come out, so it does not request a reinstatement.

(b) PJ and his family want to maintain a figleaf of innocence so they pronounce themselves truly upset, even spitting mad, that UNC did not request a reinstatement, thereby ending the college career he did not intend to pursue.

Plausible?

sage

I do believe it is....

OldPhiKap
12-20-2013, 10:12 PM
This could be a bit of a squabble, OR -- Ol' Grouse being the suspicious sort -- it could a pas de deux arranged in advance.

(a) UNC doesn't want the horrid details of PJ and his escapades to come out, so it does not request a reinstatement.

I am confident this is correct.

(b) PJ and his family want to maintain a figleaf of innocence so they pronounce themselves truly upset, even spitting mad, that UNC did not request a reinstatement, thereby ending the college career he did not intend to pursue.

The tone to me does not support this; OPK's guess is that the fine UNC and the NCAA were discussing was more that PJ was willing to do. UNC had said they were working out details with the family, and after LMac it is clear that restitution/disgorgement is part of the deal. I think it more likely that PJ, who considered the NBA draft last year, decided he'd rather chill or make money somewhere for the next few months than pay a fine and still miss some more games.



FWIW, in bold.

ncexnyc
12-20-2013, 10:27 PM
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I believe both parties deserve each other. Call me a tin foil hat nut case, better suited for Pack Pride than DBR, but I don’t believe this was just some isolated incident.

Based on what we’ve witnessed with UNC’s academic/football scandal, we’ve seen no change whatsoever in how UNC operates. Tons of parking tickets being issued to players, who drive a different car every week (ok, slight exaggeration), stonewalling by the university, complete lack of control by their coach who is clueless as to what is going on and one can only come to the conclusion that they are following a well scripted playbook on how to cheat.

Do I believe PJ was played by UNC? Yes, I do. Do I feel sorry for the kid? No I don’t. He bought into the system and he had a chance to leave the school last spring, but he made the decision to return.

If PJ and his parents really believe they were shafted by UNC then hold a press conference and give their side of the story, or better yet get a lawyer.

I’m also very annoyed when people keep saying PJ’s just a kid and kids make mistakes. Yes, kids do make mistakes, but PJ’s made a whole series of mistakes, which shows me a person who is totally out of control, or who believes he is above the rules because of whom he is, or who he plays for. And one last comment on PJ. On what should be one of the worst days of his life, all he can post on Twitter, is that in 4 days it will be his 21st birthday. I guess now he can legally shotgun a few beers.

diablesseblu
12-20-2013, 10:37 PM
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I believe both parties deserve each other. Call me a tin foil hat nut case, better suited for Pack Pride than DBR, but I don’t believe this was just some isolated incident.

Based on what we’ve witnessed with UNC’s academic/football scandal, we’ve seen no change whatsoever in how UNC operates. Tons of parking tickets being issued to players, who drive a different car every week (ok, slight exaggeration), stonewalling by the university, complete lack of control by their coach who is clueless as to what is going on and one can only come to the conclusion that they are following a well scripted playbook on how to cheat.

Do I believe PJ was played by UNC? Yes, I do. Do I feel sorry for the kid? No I don’t. He bought into the system and he had a chance to leave the school last spring, but he made the decision to return.

If PJ and his parents really believe they were shafted by UNC then hold a press conference and give their side of the story, or better yet get a lawyer.

I’m also very annoyed when people keep saying PJ’s just a kid and kids make mistakes. Yes, kids do make mistakes, but PJ’s made a whole series of mistakes, which shows me a person who is totally out of control, or who believes he is above the rules because of whom he is, or who he plays for. And one last comment on PJ. On what should be one of the worst days of his life, all he can post on Twitter, is that in 4 days it will be his 21st birthday. I guess now he can legally shotgun a few beers.

Well said!! This, plus the football/AFAM debacle, just screams "lack of institutional control." It's not clear to me that anyone in the UNC athletics department really "gets it" about how tarnished their brand is. They really need to do a complete "reboot" in terms of culture/oversight.

That said, I have little to no sympathy for PJ and/or Roy in this "process" (watch the Roy presser for the ultimate overuse of that word!).

wk2109
12-20-2013, 10:48 PM
I've been following this story from the beginning (mainly through the threads on DBR) and I feel like today's announcement raised more unanswered questions:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if UNC is not applying for PJ's "reinstatement," doesn't that necessarily imply that PJ was suspended or in some non-active status with the NCAA? Was it ever announced that the NCAA had suspended PJ or was not permitting him to play? Why did UNC/Roy make it seem like they were making the choice to hold PJ out while the NCAA finished its investigation? If the rumors are true that the NCAA handed down the suspension several months ago, UNC appealed, and UNC lost the appeal, what exactly does UNC get out of spinning the story like they did?

Unless there are some crazy unknown facts, this doesn't seem that much worse than other cases of impermissible benefits/criminal charges. Not that I'm saying what he did wasn't that bad, but plenty of NCAA athletes have been caught receiving benefits and plenty have been arrested for making stupid decisions -- is it the combination that makes this case unique? Why would UNC try to hide what was going on? It's not like the media hadn't written all about the Fats connection, speeding tickets, and whatever else happened with PJ. The logical thing for a school to do would be to announce that the NCAA suspended PJ indefinitely for his many transgressions, not to hide the NCAA suspension. Was UNC just being stupid or was UNC being shady?

There's still something fishy about this whole story -- UNC might think today's announcement allows them to wipe their hands clean of this matter, but I don't think it does.

FerryFor50
12-20-2013, 10:59 PM
Remember when Duke was recruiting PJ (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/UNC-recruit-P-J-Hairston-Duke-couldn-8217-t-?urn=ncaab-wp2870)?

Let's think about the bullets Duke has dodged...

PJ Hairston
Shabazz Muhammad
Tony Parker

I'm sure there are plenty of others. Those are just the ones at the top of my mind...

Dukehky
12-20-2013, 11:02 PM
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I believe both parties deserve each other. Call me a tin foil hat nut case, better suited for Pack Pride than DBR, but I don’t believe this was just some isolated incident.

Based on what we’ve witnessed with UNC’s academic/football scandal, we’ve seen no change whatsoever in how UNC operates. Tons of parking tickets being issued to players, who drive a different car every week (ok, slight exaggeration), stonewalling by the university, complete lack of control by their coach who is clueless as to what is going on and one can only come to the conclusion that they are following a well scripted playbook on how to cheat.

Do I believe PJ was played by UNC? Yes, I do. Do I feel sorry for the kid? No I don’t. He bought into the system and he had a chance to leave the school last spring, but he made the decision to return.

If PJ and his parents really believe they were shafted by UNC then hold a press conference and give their side of the story, or better yet get a lawyer.

I’m also very annoyed when people keep saying PJ’s just a kid and kids make mistakes. Yes, kids do make mistakes, but PJ’s made a whole series of mistakes, which shows me a person who is totally out of control, or who believes he is above the rules because of whom he is, or who he plays for. And one last comment on PJ. On what should be one of the worst days of his life, all he can post on Twitter, is that in 4 days it will be his 21st birthday. I guess now he can legally shotgun a few beers.

I can jive with this. He did screw up probably beyond repair in college, and as I said, I would have been comfortable if there had been a decision made by the NCAA to disqualify him. This does just stink on UNC's behalf, in my opinion they do not come out of this situation looking clean like I'm sure they hoped. Well said on all fronts. I didn't mean to sound like a PJ apologist, based on the mistakes he made, because he should have learned after the first round of screw ups, or Roy should have made it abundantly clear that if that behavior continued he'd be gone regardless. Once UNC made the decision to kind of see things through, they should have seen it all the way through. They looked like they were going to make a stand on the kids' behalf, which I support, even if it may have been the wrong move at the time, but they didn't.

Matches
12-21-2013, 06:37 AM
I'm not surprised PJ is done, and would have been more understanding if HIS SCHOOL HAD EVEN TRIED TO TAKE A LONG SHOT TO GET HIM REINSTATED. If you want to trash somebody, trash UNC and the adminstration, not the kid. He's been punished enough (I know, he's probably not reading the thread, but you know, bad vibes coming from DBR can really ruin somebody's day)/

Marc James on The Drive yesterday all but said outright that UNC did attempt to get PJ reinstated. They didn't file a formal petition but supposedly have been working with the NCAA for months. According to him the NCAA would have allowed reinstatement but only after a lengthy suspension and a sizeable fine (at least sizeable compared to what McDonald got).

PJ's family (understandably, IMO) did not want to pay the fine just to salvage what would have been a small portion of the season.

I think folks are interpreting "didn't file a petition" as "didn't try to get PJ reinstated", but they're not really the same thing. UNC has been trying for months to get this kid cleared to play, but it's a fairly complex negotiation between the NCAA, the school, and the Hairstons, and it just didn't work out.

arnie
12-21-2013, 07:01 AM
Remember when Duke was recruiting PJ (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/UNC-recruit-P-J-Hairston-Duke-couldn-8217-t-?urn=ncaab-wp2870)?

Let's think about the bullets Duke has dodged...

PJ Hairston
Shabazz Muhammad
Tony Parker

I'm sure there are plenty of others. Those are just the ones at the top of my mind...

Truly believe that under K and our assistants, PJ wouldn't have been close to Fats or his influence. Roy doesn't teach the same values or instill discipline the way K does. In fact, I really believe that's what's makes Roy a great recruiter- come play for me and have a great time, don't worry, be happy.

OldPhiKap
12-21-2013, 07:07 AM
The logical thing for a school to do would be to announce that the NCAA suspended PJ indefinitely for his many transgressions, not to hide the NCAA suspension.

That would have been the honest, honorable and fair way. Not #TheCarolinaWay.

cspan37421
12-21-2013, 07:48 AM
I’m also very annoyed when people keep saying PJ’s just a kid and kids make mistakes.

Me too. It's one of those "I don't think that word means what you think it means." A mistake implies the person did something accidentally. That's never been the case here.

lotusland
12-21-2013, 08:06 AM
Truly believe that under K and our assistants, PJ wouldn't have been close to Fats or his influence. Roy doesn't teach the same values or instill discipline the way K does. In fact, I really believe that's what's makes Roy a great recruiter- come play for me and have a great time, don't worry, be happy.

no way to know that. PJ evidently had a somewhat sketchy past coming in. Being a local kid it's not as easy to leave the old gang behind especially in the off season. The old pals are just a phone call away.

weezie
12-21-2013, 10:16 AM
Maybe I can get him to play on my rec league team. Selling point: no drug testing! Heck, I'll even throw in a car rental or two.


Well, ok then. Maybe I should join your team...sounds like a fun bunch! :cool:

Olympic Fan
12-21-2013, 10:50 AM
I've been following this story from the beginning (mainly through the threads on DBR) and I feel like today's announcement raised more unanswered questions:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if UNC is not applying for PJ's "reinstatement," doesn't that necessarily imply that PJ was suspended or in some non-active status with the NCAA? Was it ever announced that the NCAA had suspended PJ or was not permitting him to play? Why did UNC/Roy make it seem like they were making the choice to hold PJ out while the NCAA finished its investigation? If the rumors are true that the NCAA handed down the suspension several months ago, UNC appealed, and UNC lost the appeal, what exactly does UNC get out of spinning the story like they did?
There's still something fishy about this whole story

What's fishy is the UNC spin machine ... neither PJ nor Leslie were ever suspended by the NCAA ... both were suspended by UNC.

That's the way it works -- or is supposed to. When a school (or a school alerted by the NCAA) finds a problem, the SCHOOL suspends the players in question, then ultimately petitions the NCAA for clearance to play them.

But the expensive PR firm that UNC first hired in 2010, persuaded the school to cast it differently. UNC was always "holding out" players while the "NCAA" investigated. Then, after a number of games, the players would be "cleared to play." UNC would never admit that their players were actually suspended for x-number of games. An amazing number of UNC fans bought the story and came away with the perception that innocent players were held out of action unnecessarily, while the NCAA twiddled its thumbs. That's what led to all the stuff after the football scandal about how UNC was "the most cooperative school" in the history of NCAA investigations.

Ole Roy didn't help matters back two months ago when he put the blame on the NCAA for the delay in getting a decision on his two cheaters (remember his complaint that Johnny Manziel got a decision in two days). Well, we know now that he should have been blaming his own administration -- the NCAA acted promptly once UNC applied for the reinstatement of McDonald ...

To this day, many UNC fans blame the NCAA for their troubles. Or they blame Packpride for exposing their many transgressions. Last night a UNC fan posted a link to a story about Duke's Tyree Glover being arrested on a drug charge ... amazing responses by fans gushing about how much fun its going to be to watch this develop ... of course, the story was from 2011 -- and what they don't note is the Glover never played a game (or practiced with) Duke after the transgression. Duke didn't spend years and millions of dollars trying to get the kid eligible again.

Anything to deflect ...

But don't worry, there is more to come. Eric Prisbell, the USA Today writer who has been all over this story, tweeted in the wake of Friday's news that a major bomb is about to drop. Speculation on Packpride (and, hey, they've been mostly right so far) is that he has evidence that the "Wheels for Heels" program has been going on for a long time -- with the knowledge and maybe support of the administration.

Stay turned ...

subzero02
12-21-2013, 12:45 PM
Intriguing

Gthoma2a
12-21-2013, 12:54 PM
It sounds like the more powerful institution kind of hung the kid out to dry. I'm not really thrilled with the whole celebratory nature that a lot of people have taken on this decision. A kid's college career has just essentially ended. Yeah, he did stupid things, probably more stupid than most people would have done but he's still just a kid, who got very little support from an institution he gave 2 years of hard work to. Also, I've been given infractions before while playfully indicating that I wished blank player would fall over in warm-ups and be out for the game (obviously a joke), but it's okay to wish that kids from other schools make boneheaded moves and are punished in ways in which they have no recourse? I know it's not exactly the same, this whole thing just kind of rubs me the wrong way. The NCAA and college administrations are, for the most part, bullies who will do anything to protect themselves and each other, while not hesitating to drop the hammer on kids. Duke has done the same thing, that was a while ago now, and it was a completely different scenario, but Duke kicked those lacrosse kids out of school to cover its backside. Well, with all the lawsuits, it came back to bite them in the I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. a little bit, and I hope PJ gets a little retribution at UNC too.

UNC wouldn't even try to get him reinstated, not even a shot in the dark effort? If I were Hairston, and UNC did anything wrong that he knew about, I would tell the NCAA every single thing I knew.

I hope he has a solid career in the league because he's got a lot of talent, and I hope he grows up, because he needs to.

I'm sure this isn't going to be a very popular sentiment, and all the fun puns people use are understandable, and it happened to a rival school that has had a lot of problems in this area before, but we are just railing on a kid who made a mistake, even a series of mistakes, which makes the razzing more understandable. I just wanted to get my opinion on the matter out there before we forget all about this in a few weeks. I'm not surprised PJ is done, and would have been more understanding if HIS SCHOOL HAD EVEN TRIED TO TAKE A LONG SHOT TO GET HIM REINSTATED. If you want to trash somebody, trash UNC and the adminstration, not the kid. He's been punished enough (I know, he's probably not reading the thread, but you know, bad vibes coming from DBR can really ruin somebody's day)/

I don't really agree with most of this. If he has ammo, he can use it on UNC. That is fine, but he not only did what he did on MANY occasions... he lied about it. He was unrepentant enough that he wouldn't even tell the truth. Boo hoo that he lost his eligibility as an amateur. He isn't an amateur when he gets free cars all of the time. He got lucky that others were willing to take the blame for the gun/drugs. He didn't need more luck here. He didn't deserve it. This is not to mention that the NCAA stated clearly what they expected. Hairston just didn't comply. He volunteered to play the game for an NCAA team. He took on the responsibility of those rules. It isn't bullying when a bully punishes you, after you agree to the bully's terms on your own and then decide you don't want to abide by them. He may be a kid, but any 18 year-old who signs into a legal agreement will be forced to live with the consequences of a breach of contract. His athletic status should make no difference. The worst thing that happened to him was that he lost the ability to play basketball at a university. He can still attend the university, if he pays. He can still play basketball if anyone wants him, in Europe right now, and in the NBA later.

Poor PJ.

subzero02
12-21-2013, 01:12 PM
Wouldn't he be able to sign with a D-league team?...

Potato Head
12-21-2013, 01:33 PM
Wouldn't he be able to sign with a D-league team?...

I think he could, actually. I suspect he won't though, since the D-League salary is so poor compared to playing professionally abroad. The only advantage of the D-League is easier access to the NBA, where even a minimum salary would put you reasonably close to the upper echelon of Europe's highest paid players. PJ of course not being eligible for the NBA until next season.

ancienteagle
12-21-2013, 02:48 PM
Since it appears that A&E may be needing a new reality show, may I suggest one?

How about one set in a "flagship" southern university's athletic department, where the BBall team loses to other hapless teams with names like Belmont...er, Kannapolis; where they have a character named, say, P Doobie, whose zany antics get him thrown off the team for blunts, gats and boosters' cars; but whose Athletic Director named, say, "Bubba," waits to toss him until the semester ends so he won't hurt their APR; another lovable loser who gets in trouble with the NCAA via the college's dental school for appearing in ads for their new mouthguard; another sad sack who gets thrown off the team, and later arrested for having blunts in the house he "rents" from the Coach while "working" a part time job for the BBall team! When all these merry pranksters get together, hilarity ensues!

A&E could play upon their recent miseries, and call the new reality show "Dud Dynasty"! In a nod to their "progressive" audience, they could even have the team always dress in baby blue!

Too unbelievable? The public would never buy it? Maybe you're right.

How about a reality show about a college football team addicted to earbobs, with an Assistant Coach nicknamed "Black Santa" and a corrupt but hapless President . . .

ChrisP
12-21-2013, 04:20 PM
I don't really agree with most of this. If he has ammo, he can use it on UNC. That is fine, but he not only did what he did on MANY occasions... he lied about it. He was unrepentant enough that he wouldn't even tell the truth. Boo hoo that he lost his eligibility as an amateur. He isn't an amateur when he gets free cars all of the time. He got lucky that others were willing to take the blame for the gun/drugs. He didn't need more luck here. He didn't deserve it. This is not to mention that the NCAA stated clearly what they expected. Hairston just didn't comply. He volunteered to play the game for an NCAA team. He took on the responsibility of those rules. It isn't bullying when a bully punishes you, after you agree to the bully's terms on your own and then decide you don't want to abide by them. He may be a kid, but any 18 year-old who signs into a legal agreement will be forced to live with the consequences of a breach of contract. His athletic status should make no difference. The worst thing that happened to him was that he lost the ability to play basketball at a university. He can still attend the university, if he pays. He can still play basketball if anyone wants him, in Europe right now, and in the NBA later.

Poor PJ.

Do we know that for a fact though? In other words, is it a fact that PJ loses his scholarship to UNC? I agree that he's far from a "victim" here, but I would hope that - if he so chooses - he could still at least get his college degree. That would be the smart thing to do but...it doesn't seem like the words "PJ Hairston" and "smart" belong in the same sentence.

sagegrouse
12-21-2013, 05:14 PM
UNC wouldn't even try to get him reinstated, not even a shot in the dark effort? If I were Hairston, and UNC did anything wrong that he knew about, I would tell the NCAA every single thing I knew.



Not to pick on you, Dukehky, but please don't drink any of the kool-aid the various parties are ladling out.

"Apply for reinstatement" only occurs after there has been an agreement among the school, the NCAA, and the family of the athlete (because of the repayments required).

The only reason there was no application for reinstatement is that either the suspension would be unacceptably long to UNC (and the player) or the amount of money to be paid to compensate for "impermissible benefits" was too big for the family to swallow.

Here's my take on PJ:


He repeatedly did a series of things against the rules and which he knew was against the rules. PJ is a "knucklehead."

He was not straight with either UNC or the NCAA about what he did. (Lying to the NCAA is a real no-no; ask Bruce Pearl who just had a recruit over for dinner, lied about it, and was thrown out of college hoops for three years.) PJ is a "lying weasel."

Now the family is excoriating UNC for not applying for reinstatement, when the family was in on the entire process and knew it was either (a) hopeless or (b) way too expensive. The Hairston clan are "lying weasels."

UNC is certainly not blameless in being "unvigilant" about actions occurring right on campus. And UNC is certainly being "artful" in refusing to apply for reinstatement; that way, the sordid mess is largely buried (except for what can be gleaned from the Leslie McD. evidence).

richardjackson199
12-21-2013, 05:49 PM
Wheat I am curious to hear your take from a Carolina fan's perspective because I respect your opinions. What do you make of this UNC mess? of Roy's blathering press conference? (Just read my statement. PJ made some mistakes but he paid for it by running some sprints. Woe is me, I got up at 4am. Don't ask me these questions, the head coach is not part of the NCAA process. I'm just the poor guy who gets put in the middle and sits on the couch." BS The head coach is responsible for his players' NCAA compliance and following the rules. Then Bubba's press conference of just dodging questions (not answering direct close-ended questions at all) by repeating the same line from his prepared statement. The message I took away is (We tried to get PJ back on the team in time for ACC play, but he got caught with too many impermissable benefits.) Then they spin it as one player who made some mistakes. This is not one player who made some mistakes. Now we also find out that LMac didn't just get a mouthguard. He also got luxury cars, cell phones, and free hotel rooms. And UNC keeps playing dumb. The football scandal, academic no-show classes, agents, felons, drugs, gun, Tami Hansbrough, Julius Peppers, Will Graves, Wheels for Heels, and that's just what we know. PJ likely got caught with so many improper benefits they're trying to bury it from public view. How is all this corruption and improper benefits in UNC athletics not lack of institutional control? What do you think Wheat? I feel bad for the UNC fans, players, and students who are trying to do the right thing while UNC athletics continues to operate this way. 10 years ago I never would have thought this could happen at UNC. I would expect this from Calipari, not Roy Williams. Dean Smith ran a program where UNC won with integrity and the right way. Aren't UNC fans sick of this enduring mess perpetuated by lack of accountability? Are we really to believe that all these players just made some mistakes? I hope the USA today guy brings forth evidence on Wheels for Heels & that UNC gets cleaned out and starts over. At this point, that is what they need. Come clean, fire everybody, and start over with dedication to integrity. What do you think Wheat?

arnie
12-21-2013, 06:18 PM
Wheat I am curious to hear your take from a Carolina fan's perspective because I respect your opinions. What do you make of this UNC mess? of Roy's blathering press conference? (Just read my statement. PJ made some mistakes but he paid for it by running some sprints. Woe is me, I got up at 4am. Don't ask me these questions, the head coach is not part of the NCAA process. I'm just the poor guy who gets put in the middle and sits on the couch." BS The head coach is responsible for his players' NCAA compliance and following the rules. Then Bubba's press conference of just dodging questions (not answering direct close-ended questions at all) by repeating the same line from his prepared statement. The message I took away is (We tried to get PJ back on the team in time for ACC play, but he got caught with too many impermissable benefits.) Then they spin it as one player who made some mistakes. This is not one player who made some mistakes. Now we also find out that LMac didn't just get a mouthguard. He also got luxury cars, cell phones, and free hotel rooms. And UNC keeps playing dumb. The football scandal, academic no-show classes, agents, felons, drugs, gun, Tami Hansbrough, Julius Peppers, Will Graves, Wheels for Heels, and that's just what we know. PJ likely got caught with so many improper benefits they're trying to bury it from public view. How is all this corruption and improper benefits in UNC athletics not lack of institutional control? What do you think Wheat? I feel bad for the UNC fans, players, and students who are trying to do the right thing while UNC athletics continues to operate this way. 10 years ago I never would have thought this could happen at UNC. I would expect this from Calipari, not Roy Williams. Dean Smith ran a program where UNC won with integrity and the right way. Aren't UNC fans sick of this enduring mess perpetuated by lack of accountability? Are we really to believe that all these players just made some mistakes? I hope the USA today guy brings forth evidence on Wheels for Heels & that UNC gets cleaned out and starts over. At this point, that is what they need. Come clean, fire everybody, and start over with dedication to integrity. What do you think Wheat?

Wheat is watching Davidson ahead of heels by 2 with 29 secs left

Duvall
12-21-2013, 06:27 PM
Wheat is watching Davidson ahead of heels by 2 with 29 secs left

Why. Why do this.

Furniture
12-21-2013, 06:28 PM
Wheat is watching Davidson ahead of heels by 2 with 29 secs left

Arne. I think you just jinxed Davidson! LOL!

arnie
12-21-2013, 06:32 PM
Arne. I think you just jinxed Davidson! LOL!

Yep, my fault and I take all the blame. It looks like it will go down as another inspiring win for the Heels after facing endless imposed adversity.

timmy c
12-21-2013, 06:36 PM
Yep, my fault and I take all the blame. It looks like it will go down as another inspiring win for the Heels after facing endless imposed adversity.

Ugh. This was supposed to be my Christmas present from Davidson.

devildeac
12-21-2013, 06:36 PM
Wheat is watching Davidson ahead of heels by 2 with 29 secs left

Devildeac, devildeac, why are there no Christmas presents this year?

Because arnie is still king ruined Christmas.

:rolleyes:

FerryFor50
12-21-2013, 06:37 PM
Devildeac, devildeac, why are there no Christmas presents this year?

Because arnie is still king ruined Christmas.

:rolleyes:

Yes, yes he did.

OldPhiKap
12-21-2013, 08:38 PM
Devildeac, devildeac, why are there no Christmas presents this year?

Because arnie is still king ruined Christmas.

:rolleyes:

Santa was sleighed?

Wheat/"/"/"
12-22-2013, 06:41 AM
Wheat I am curious to hear your take from a Carolina fan's perspective because I respect your opinions. What do you make of this UNC mess? of Roy's blathering press conference? (Just read my statement. PJ made some mistakes but he paid for it by running some sprints. Woe is me, I got up at 4am. Don't ask me these questions, the head coach is not part of the NCAA process. I'm just the poor guy who gets put in the middle and sits on the couch." BS The head coach is responsible for his players' NCAA compliance and following the rules. Then Bubba's press conference of just dodging questions (not answering direct close-ended questions at all) by repeating the same line from his prepared statement. The message I took away is (We tried to get PJ back on the team in time for ACC play, but he got caught with too many impermissable benefits.) Then they spin it as one player who made some mistakes. This is not one player who made some mistakes. Now we also find out that LMac didn't just get a mouthguard. He also got luxury cars, cell phones, and free hotel rooms. And UNC keeps playing dumb. The football scandal, academic no-show classes, agents, felons, drugs, gun, Tami Hansbrough, Julius Peppers, Will Graves, Wheels for Heels, and that's just what we know. PJ likely got caught with so many improper benefits they're trying to bury it from public view. How is all this corruption and improper benefits in UNC athletics not lack of institutional control? What do you think Wheat? I feel bad for the UNC fans, players, and students who are trying to do the right thing while UNC athletics continues to operate this way. 10 years ago I never would have thought this could happen at UNC. I would expect this from Calipari, not Roy Williams. Dean Smith ran a program where UNC won with integrity and the right way. Aren't UNC fans sick of this enduring mess perpetuated by lack of accountability? Are we really to believe that all these players just made some mistakes? I hope the USA today guy brings forth evidence on Wheels for Heels & that UNC gets cleaned out and starts over. At this point, that is what they need. Come clean, fire everybody, and start over with dedication to integrity. What do you think Wheat?

My views can be found through out these threads. Sorry I don't have time to expand.

Cliff note version...

PJ is to blame for his actions. He knew the consequences and is paying for them.

There is no booster involved with PJ and UNC did nothing wrong, but UNC compliance can do a better job of watching these kids to protect the program from their mistakes.

I like how Roy is handling it all, sticking with him even tho he has to be dissapointed in him. Roy says he will be there for them, and he is. You guys can go all coach K disciplinarian on him, but that's not Roy.

I don't like how players are treated, or any of these NCAA rules. I don't like the NCAA.

Will graves came back to UNC to finish his degree. Good for him. Will Graves had a joint in his rental house. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care.

Tammi and Matt. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care. Somebody else can worry about expense accounts.

The AFAM deal is serious and is being taken care of. I see it as individuals making huge mistakes, not the university as a whole.

Merry Christmas to all...

TruBlu
12-22-2013, 06:57 AM
My views can be found through out these threads. Sorry I don't have time to expand.

Cliff note version...

PJ is to blame for his actions. He knew the consequences and is paying for them.

There is no booster involved with PJ and UNC did nothing wrong, but UNC compliance can do a better job of watching these kids to protect the program from their mistakes.

I like how Roy is handling it all, sticking with him even tho he has to be dissapointed in him. Roy says he will be there for them, and he is. You guys can go all coach K disciplinarian on him, but that's not Roy.

I don't like how players are treated, or any of these NCAA rules. I don't like the NCAA.

Will graves came back to UNC to finish his degree. Good for him. Will Graves had a joint in his rental house. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care.

Tammi and Matt. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care. Somebody else can worry about expense accounts.

The AFAM deal is serious and is being taken care of. I see it as individuals making huge mistakes, not the university as a whole.

Merry Christmas to all...

Wow! "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" :p

77devil
12-22-2013, 07:23 AM
Wow! "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" :p

We'll see if Wheat can, and the NCAA for that matter, continue to rationalize these events as disconnected, isolated events if Wheels for Heels noted above by Oly proves to be accurate. Dare we say lack of institutional control?

OldPhiKap
12-22-2013, 07:43 AM
My views can be found through out these threads. Sorry I don't have time to expand.

Cliff note version...

PJ is to blame for his actions. He knew the consequences and is paying for them.

agreed.

There is no booster involved with PJ and UNC did nothing wrong, but UNC compliance can do a better job of watching these kids to protect the program from their mistakes.

the University turned a blind eye, this kid was driving multiple high-priced cars around campus for an extended period of time. UNC shares blame in this.

I like how Roy is handling it all, sticking with him even tho he has to be dissapointed in him. Roy says he will be there for them, and he is. You guys can go all coach K disciplinarian on him, but that's not Roy.

Roy should also care about the integrity of the University and the program, but he is more concerned with wins and having these kids be his buddies. You can love your kids and expect discipline, too. It is not mutually exclusive.

I don't like how players are treated, or any of these NCAA rules. I don't like the NCAA.

agreed.

Will graves came back to UNC to finish his degree. Good for him. Will Graves had a joint in his rental house. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care.

agree by and large.

Tammi and Matt. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care. Somebody else can worry about expense accounts.

no, this goes to the whole university integrity thing again. UNC appears to have a culture that prefers win to honor if there is a conflict. Once upon a time there was The Carolina Way, but it is dead and gone.

The AFAM deal is serious and is being taken care of. I see it as individuals making huge mistakes, not the university as a whole.

of course the university shares the blame, if not the bulk of it. Sham programs with sham classes, and athletes directed to it. It was an organized deception.

Merry Christmas to all...

Thoughts in bold above.

Merry Christmas Wheat, may the fish be large and plentiful!

Indoor66
12-22-2013, 08:44 AM
Wow! "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" :p

I always knew that the dump was filled with monkeys.

devildeac
12-22-2013, 10:02 AM
Wow! "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" :p


I always knew that the dump was filled with monkeys.

There's another evil:


http://whoismob.webs.com/Hear%20no%20evil%20see%20no%20evil%20speak%20no%20 evil%20post%20no%20evil.jpg

richardjackson199
12-22-2013, 10:08 AM
My views can be found through out these threads. Sorry I don't have time to expand.

Cliff note version...

PJ is to blame for his actions. He knew the consequences and is paying for them.

There is no booster involved with PJ and UNC did nothing wrong, but UNC compliance can do a better job of watching these kids to protect the program from their mistakes.

I like how Roy is handling it all, sticking with him even tho he has to be dissapointed in him. Roy says he will be there for them, and he is. You guys can go all coach K disciplinarian on him, but that's not Roy.

I don't like how players are treated, or any of these NCAA rules. I don't like the NCAA.

Will graves came back to UNC to finish his degree. Good for him. Will Graves had a joint in his rental house. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care.

Tammi and Matt. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care. Somebody else can worry about expense accounts.

The AFAM deal is serious and is being taken care of. I see it as individuals making huge mistakes, not the university as a whole.

Merry Christmas to all...

Thank you for your response. I'm sure I wouldn't want to defend my opinions on a UNC board. Roy is a legendary and great coach. I believe he does deeply care about his players. I have seen some very well-meaning people with big hearts actually serve to enable atrocious behavior with the attitude of "first I need to care about this kid and help them."

I believe Roy means well. But by enabling his players and turning a blind eye he is not helping them. Given that he benefits from having them on his team, it looks very bad for the university given the continued scandals. The way UNC and Roy handled LMac & PJ is appalling to me. It appears PJ is being punished with the whole season only because UNC had no choice. They did everything they could to try to get him back on the team by the time the games mattered. To help PJ? BS. So UNC could compete for a championship. Then we find out LMac has also been getting multiple improper benefits only because UNC was able to reduce his suspension down to 9 games. UNC is trying to minimize these suspensions for players so they can play for UNC. They were trying to have scrimmage practices and exhibitions games count toward the games missed for crying out loud. This is not "having the players backs"; it is enabling them. It is sending a message that what they did is a problem because they got caught, but that UNC will try everything in their power to minimize it.

Hey Roy & Bubba, what the hell is going on at UNC? "Um, I can't comment on that. Read my statement. We tried as hard as we could, but after talking with the NCAA this is what we have to do and the kids made some mistakes."

I agree the NCAA has major problems. That does not excuse multiple players across programs (or their mothers) getting this many academic and financial improper benefits. I don't care if Will Graves smokes weed at home either. But Roy "renting" him his super-expensive rental home after he gets kicked off the team for drugs is another example of enabling and poor judgment. Just pick any example and look at UNC's cover-up response. An appropriate response IMO would be as soon as it's clear what the players did, kick them off the team and immediately say "this cannot be tolerated at UNC." UNC has shown their team would be fine without PJ and LMac. Sure then go & help PJ & LMac learn from mistakes & make the most of their lives. But teach accountability and taking responsibility for actions by paying the consequences. Show everyone it won't be tolerated because UNC doesn't stand for that. Sadly, the Carolina way is now winning is more important than integrity. They're justifying their enabling by telling themselves this is "caring about & helping these kids succeed." They're sending a message to win at all costs, cheating is only a "mistake" if you get caught (and even then we've got your back and we'll do damage control to cover it up and minimize your punishment).

That is not how it works in the real world. Breeches of integrity for example can cause you to lose a medical license you worked your whole life for, or get fired, lose your career, and have a very tough time getting hired again with that on your record. College is a great time to teach young men to value integrity above winning, and to teach winning the right way. I am proud that Coach K, Coach Cutcliffe, Duke athletics, and the university do that. If Duke did not do that, I would not accept it or defend them. I am very disappointed in what UNC has become. They used to be a valued, respected rival because they were also a wonderful university providing an amazing education on a beautiful campus and standing for integrity. Now they really are UNC-Cheat. Bill Friday and Dean Smith would vomit if they could see what UNC athletics has become.

devildeac
12-22-2013, 10:15 AM
There's another evil:


http://whoismob.webs.com/Hear%20no%20evil%20see%20no%20evil%20speak%20no%20 evil%20post%20no%20evil.jpg

Well, maybe one more:

3752

Bob Green
12-22-2013, 10:44 AM
Merry Christmas to all...

Merry Christmas, Wheat/"/"/".

Furniture
12-22-2013, 11:31 AM
Merry Christmas to all...

Merry Xmas Wheat. Thanks for sharing your views as always.

JStuart
12-22-2013, 05:57 PM
:confused:
My views can be found through out these threads. Sorry I don't have time to expand.

Cliff note version...

PJ is to blame for his actions. He knew the consequences and is paying for them.

There is no booster involved with PJ and UNC did nothing wrong, but UNC compliance can do a better job of watching these kids to protect the program from their mistakes.


Merry Christmas to all...

Wheat; no booster involved? Is that because you consider Fats a felon, as opposed to a regular, country club, Rams Club contributor?

No Booster Involved?

Did I read that right?
Who rented the cars, then? A passerby?

ncexnyc
12-22-2013, 07:33 PM
:confused:

Wheat; no booster involved? Is that because you consider Fats a felon, as opposed to a regular, country club, Rams Club contributor?

No Booster Involved?

Did I read that right?
Who rented the cars, then? A passerby?

Repeat after me, it's all a coincidence, it's all a coincidence.

The fact that Dr. Howard, a UNC hotshot is the cousin of Mr. Fats and Mr. Fats works in some capacity for said cousin. Also the dentists (UNC fan boys) who gave LMac the mouth guard are tight with the good Dr., well again it's all just coincidence. Heck, Fats rental car bill is nearly as much as I earn in a year. Yet this dude who has some sketchy job, working out of a closet size room for his cousin has this kind of money to rent all these high dollar cars.

Again, it's all just coincidence.

kAzE
12-22-2013, 08:28 PM
I'm just thankful for the type of program that Coach K has built at Duke. It's probably something that most of us take for granted, but we almost never have problems with off the court issues, whether it's academics (Boy, losing Jerian Grant is going to be rough for ND, he was playing out of his mind), legal issues, or eligibility issues. We might not always have the best players, but we always have high character guys who take schoolwork seriously and don't get involved in sketchy behavior off the court. (The JJ pot incident aside) So even if Coach K isn't necessarily the best X's and O's guy, he's absolutely the best motivator and mentor a college kid could ask for, and just really special. He's going to top 1000 wins, but how many of his guys, especially those who weren't NBA guys, has he coached to a successful career? That's his real achievement.

Dr. Rosenrosen
12-22-2013, 10:51 PM
:confused:

Wheat; no booster involved? Is that because you consider Fats a felon, as opposed to a regular, country club, Rams Club contributor?

No Booster Involved?

Did I read that right?
Who rented the cars, then? A passerby?
Rationalization has given way to delusion. It's sad really.

stickdog
12-22-2013, 11:59 PM
Hairston's stats before Williams finally woke up and committed to small ball (which allowed Hairston to actually play major minutes): 23 games, 19.2 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 3.6 rpg. After Williams put Hairston in the starting lineup: 13 games, 30.8 mpg, 18.2 ppg, 5.5 rpg.

For whatever reason, Williams couldn't figure out that Hairston was probably his best player until over halfway through the season. He finally figured it out and played Hairston leading player's minutes, and Hairston produced.

Had Williams not been so stubborn about his lineup for the first half of the year, I have zero doubt that Hairston would have been All-ACC last year. But because the ACC voters are count-stats driven, Hairston's limited minutes early in the year kept him off the list.

But make no mistake: he was one of the 5 or 10 best offensive players in the conference last year. And he would have been one of the 5 best offensive players in the conference this year had he played. HUGE loss for UNC.

Had he played more early, he would have declared for the draft. Roy keeps them around by any means necessary.

stickdog
12-23-2013, 12:07 AM
This could be a bit of a squabble, OR -- Ol' Grouse being the suspicious sort -- it could a pas de deux arranged in advance.

(a) UNC doesn't want the horrid details of PJ and his escapades to come out, so it does not request a reinstatement.

(b) PJ and his family want to maintain a figleaf of innocence so they pronounce themselves truly upset, even spitting mad, that UNC did not request a reinstatement, thereby ending the college career he did not intend to pursue.

Plausible?

sage

very tenable

stickdog
12-23-2013, 12:38 AM
Repeat after me, it's all a coincidence, it's all a coincidence.

The fact that Dr. Howard, a UNC hotshot is the cousin of Mr. Fats and Mr. Fats works in some capacity for said cousin. Also the dentists (UNC fan boys) who gave LMac the mouth guard are tight with the good Dr., well again it's all just coincidence. Heck, Fats rental car bill is nearly as much as I earn in a year. Yet this dude who has some sketchy job, working out of a closet size room for his cousin has this kind of money to rent all these high dollar cars.

Again, it's all just coincidence.

Yep. It's a just long string of coincidental improper benefits that were coincidentally given to dozens of current (and former) UNC athletes and coincidental fake courses that coincidentally guaranteed dozens of UNC athletes' eligibility. Why be a conspiracy theorist when you can be a coincidence theorist?

Class of '94
12-23-2013, 07:53 AM
Thank you for your response. I'm sure I wouldn't want to defend my opinions on a UNC board. Roy is a legendary and great coach. I believe he does deeply care about his players. I have seen some very well-meaning people with big hearts actually serve to enable atrocious behavior with the attitude of "first I need to care about this kid and help them."

I believe Roy means well. But by enabling his players and turning a blind eye he is not helping them. Given that he benefits from having them on his team, it looks very bad for the university given the continued scandals. The way UNC and Roy handled LMac & PJ is appalling to me. It appears PJ is being punished with the whole season only because UNC had no choice. They did everything they could to try to get him back on the team by the time the games mattered. To help PJ? BS. So UNC could compete for a championship. Then we find out LMac has also been getting multiple improper benefits only because UNC was able to reduce his suspension down to 9 games. UNC is trying to minimize these suspensions for players so they can play for UNC. They were trying to have scrimmage practices and exhibitions games count toward the games missed for crying out loud. This is not "having the players backs"; it is enabling them. It is sending a message that what they did is a problem because they got caught, but that UNC will try everything in their power to minimize it.

Hey Roy & Bubba, what the hell is going on at UNC? "Um, I can't comment on that. Read my statement. We tried as hard as we could, but after talking with the NCAA this is what we have to do and the kids made some mistakes."

I agree the NCAA has major problems. That does not excuse multiple players across programs (or their mothers) getting this many academic and financial improper benefits. I don't care if Will Graves smokes weed at home either. But Roy "renting" him his super-expensive rental home after he gets kicked off the team for drugs is another example of enabling and poor judgment. Just pick any example and look at UNC's cover-up response. An appropriate response IMO would be as soon as it's clear what the players did, kick them off the team and immediately say "this cannot be tolerated at UNC." UNC has shown their team would be fine without PJ and LMac. Sure then go & help PJ & LMac learn from mistakes & make the most of their lives. But teach accountability and taking responsibility for actions by paying the consequences. Show everyone it won't be tolerated because UNC doesn't stand for that. Sadly, the Carolina way is now winning is more important than integrity. They're justifying their enabling by telling themselves this is "caring about & helping these kids succeed." They're sending a message to win at all costs, cheating is only a "mistake" if you get caught (and even then we've got your back and we'll do damage control to cover it up and minimize your punishment).

That is not how it works in the real world. Breeches of integrity for example can cause you to lose a medical license you worked your whole life for, or get fired, lose your career, and have a very tough time getting hired again with that on your record. College is a great time to teach young men to value integrity above winning, and to teach winning the right way. I am proud that Coach K, Coach Cutcliffe, Duke athletics, and the university do that. If Duke did not do that, I would not accept it or defend them. I am very disappointed in what UNC has become. They used to be a valued, respected rival because they were also a wonderful university providing an amazing education on a beautiful campus and standing for integrity. Now they really are UNC-Cheat. Bill Friday and Dean Smith would vomit if they could see what UNC athletics has become.

Hi Wheat/"/"/"......I agree with this response. I've enjoyed and appreciated your responses in regards to Carolina and their issues. I've always felt that Coach Williams should have suspended PJ for the entire season based on the PJ's repeated mistakes and lack of a sincere willingness to learn from his mistakes and change. By suspending PJ for the entire season, I thought that would be be the best way for PJ to truly learn from his mistakes and make him understand how serious these mistakes were. Yet, Coach Williams failed to do that. His idea for atonement was to have PJ go through an intense conditioning program to earn his way back on the team. That's it??? I think Coach Williams was genuinely upset with PJ and wants to help him; but Coach failed to do what was best for PJ in the long run in terms of life beyond basketball. By choosing not to suspend PJ for the entire season, Coach Williams basically sent the message that what PJ did wasn't really that bad. And I don't believe Coach Smith would've sent the same message. I think Coach Smith would've suspended him for the season and would've forced PJ to earn his way back onto the team for the following season. This is my biggest problem with how UNC and Coach Williams have handled this situation. The best way to protect the image of UNC is to open things up and deal with the root of the problems in an honest way as opposed to having the appearance of trying to cover things up and put a PR spin on it.

DukieInKansas
12-23-2013, 08:31 AM
Hi Wheat/"/"/"......I agree with this response. I've enjoyed and appreciated your responses in regards to Carolina and their issues. I've always felt that Coach Williams should have suspended PJ for the entire season based on the PJ's repeated mistakes and lack of a sincere willingness to learn from his mistakes and change. By suspending PJ for the entire season, I thought that would be be the best way for PJ to truly learn from his mistakes and make him understand how serious these mistakes were. Yet, Coach Williams failed to do that. His idea for atonement was to have PJ go through an intense conditioning program to earn his way back on the team. That's it??? I think Coach Williams was genuinely upset with PJ and wants to help him; but Coach failed to do what was best for PJ in the long run in terms of life beyond basketball. By choosing not to suspend PJ for the entire season, Coach Williams basically sent the message that what PJ did wasn't really that bad. And I don't believe Coach Smith would've sent the same message. I think Coach Smith would've suspended him for the season and would've forced PJ to earn his way back onto the team for the following season. This is my biggest problem with how UNC and Coach Williams have handled this situation. The best way to protect the image of UNC is to open things up and deal with the root of the problems in an honest way as opposed to having the appearance of trying to cover things up and put a PR spin on it.

Maybe the intense conditioning was due to Roy knowing that PJ wouldn't be back. He was trying to get PJ in the best shape possible to somehow get into the D League or a foreign team when the NCAA gave the final word. UNC carried it out as long as possible so they could paint themselves as the victims of the unreasonable NCAA.

Just a new spin to show how caring Roy is about his players. ;-)

Actually, I do think Roy cares about his players - but just more about himself.

allenmurray
12-23-2013, 09:42 AM
My views can be found through out these threads. Sorry I don't have time to expand.

Cliff note version...

PJ is to blame for his actions. He knew the consequences and is paying for them.

There is no booster involved with PJ and UNC did nothing wrong, but UNC compliance can do a better job of watching these kids to protect the program from their mistakes.

I like how Roy is handling it all, sticking with him even tho he has to be dissapointed in him. Roy says he will be there for them, and he is. You guys can go all coach K disciplinarian on him, but that's not Roy.

I don't like how players are treated, or any of these NCAA rules. I don't like the NCAA.

Will graves came back to UNC to finish his degree. Good for him. Will Graves had a joint in his rental house. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care.

Tammi and Matt. Wheat/"/"/" doesn't care. Somebody else can worry about expense accounts.

The AFAM deal is serious and is being taken care of. I see it as individuals making huge mistakes, not the university as a whole.

Merry Christmas to all...

A player who accepted gifts from a convicted felon, thereby bringing disgrace to the university, continues to sit on the bench with the team during games. And Wheat thinks that is okay and honorable.

Drugs, guns, (reportedly) huge amounts of gifts, all provided by a felon (I lived in Durham for 30 years - I know exactly where PJ was pulled over - no one is in that neighborhood who doesn't live there for a good reason. No one.) What exactly would it take before you thought things should have been handled differently? Does someone have to get hurt? Does the gun have to kill someone? Does the cargoing 93 mph and driving recklessly (the week after the first violations were discovered) have to cause an accident? Is it okay to double up on the wrongding by lying about it? Given the nature of the offenses and the person PJ was associated with it is sheer luck that something tragic didn't happen.

Even if Roy felt the player "made mistalkes" and still needed support, PJ lied to both UNC and the NCAA about the events. At what point do yhou actually do something? Never if your name is Wheat. Never is too soon.

richardjackson199
12-23-2013, 10:34 AM
It was also amusing how Roy actually said at his press conference that PJ is the best perimeter player he has ever coached. Come on. It's obvious Roy said that to try to boost PJ's draft stock. So PJ is better than Paul Pierce, Ty Lawson, Ray Felton, Harrison Barnes, Kirk Hinrich, and Wayne Ellington? I haven't seen anything to suggest he is better than Rashad McCants, except being better at immaturity. And that's hard to do. So Roy, if PJ is the best perimeter player you ever coached, then why did you wait until February last year to get him off the bench?

Dr. Rosenrosen
12-23-2013, 11:44 AM
You know what, I'm so tired of the spin. By everyone. Sorry, Wheat, but you too.

Where is the outrage? Where is the leadership? Where is the gumption? Where is the sense of honor and self respect?

Story upon story, lie upon lie, cover-up upon cover-up, spin upon spin... it's so ridiculously out of control and the dumpers have painted themselves into such a small corner that they really can do nothing but continue to delude themselves and seek to rationalize each individual instance of impropriety as isolated, circumstantial, coincidental or otherwise unmanageable and out of their control. Otherwise, waking up each day and beating back a guilty conscience would have to become overwhelming. At least you would think that it would. But, well...

One might say they cannot see the forest for the trees. But I say it's far worse than that because they have chosen to ignore the fact (deny?) that a forest even exists.

Yesterday, I had to go to the hump on an errand. I freely admit that I purposefully wore duke gear head to toe. Man, it feels good to walk proudly in the colors.

Kedsy
12-23-2013, 12:04 PM
You know what, I'm so tired of the spin. By everyone. Sorry, Wheat, but you too.

Where is the outrage? Where is the leadership? Where is the gumption? Where is the sense of honor and self respect?

I'm going the other way. I understand (and share) the outrage over the fake courses, because that undermines the credibility of a supposed institution of higher learning. But the PJ thing? The kid screwed up. He got punished. UNC enabled PJ, and the team got punished too, losing its best player. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? Who cares about the spin on this one?

It's over. Let's get back to playing basketball.

Dr. Rosenrosen
12-23-2013, 12:50 PM
I'm going the other way. I understand (and share) the outrage over the fake courses, because that undermines the credibility of a supposed institution of higher learning. But the PJ thing? The kid screwed up. He got punished. UNC enabled PJ, and the team got punished too, losing its best player. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? Who cares about the spin on this one?

It's over. Let's get back to playing basketball.
I was referring, though not with clarity, to the multiple years worth of UNC issues, not just PJ-gate. Anyway...

howardlander
12-23-2013, 03:20 PM
You know what, I'm so tired of the spin. By everyone. Sorry, Wheat, but you too.

Where is the outrage? Where is the leadership? Where is the gumption? Where is the sense of honor and self respect?

Story upon story, lie upon lie, cover-up upon cover-up, spin upon spin... it's so ridiculously out of control and the dumpers have painted themselves into such a small corner that they really can do nothing but continue to delude themselves and seek to rationalize each individual instance of impropriety as isolated, circumstantial, coincidental or otherwise unmanageable and out of their control. Otherwise, waking up each day and beating back a guilty conscience would have to become overwhelming. At least you would think that it would. But, well...

One might say they cannot see the forest for the trees. But I say it's far worse than that because they have chosen to ignore the fact (deny?) that a forest even exists.

Yesterday, I had to go to the hump on an errand. I freely admit that I purposefully wore duke gear head to toe. Man, it feels good to walk proudly in the colors.

I don't know about calling out poor Wheat, but I have to agree with the rest of it. At what point do these people look in the mirror?

Howard "Trinity 81, UNC MSCS 1988" Lander

Wheat/"/"/"
12-23-2013, 04:46 PM
Extremely busy time for me, and I'm only one guy that tries to reply to comments from a whole board it seems at times......

There's no evidence Fats is any kind of UNC booster. It all appears to me he was the "cool" guy with money that befriended Lmac and PJ. Including others in the area. When you are 18-20 years old, you think you know it all, they are finding out some hard truths about their choices.

At any rate, you'll never convince me that Roy or anybody in the AD department knew about the cars, encouraged it or was Ok with it. Argue they should have known about it, but don't accuse "UNC" of cheating without any evidence they knew. This was no situation of trying to get a competitive advantage by an institution offering benefits to keep or recruit a player.

PJ was a discipline/maturity problem from day 1. Not a bad kid, just a problem. I have no doubt Roy held him back last season trying to coach him, trying to get him to understand the game and how to conduct himself.
Roy recruited PJ and is invested in PJ. He likes PJ and he's stubborn and not gonna give up on him, no matter what some you guys think from the high horse.
Everybody knew his talent last season, including Roy. All you have do do is go back to post game comments from his fresh/soph years and read between the lines from Roy's comments on PJ.
It wouldn't surprise me to see PJ stay through spring and continue going to class. Make every effort to be a good teammate from the bench to show that he has learned from his mistakes and prepare himself for the draft.
Roy will not give up on him, and he shouldn't.

Of course nobody at UNC or us fans likes any of this controversy.
UNC is at its core people, not some "thing" you can lump together as one. It's a whole lot of people. Good people. Include us fans and it's huge amount of people.

These problems have been caused by very few people who have let the majority of UNC fans, faculty and administrators down.
The "Carolina Way" is alive and well, it was just forgotten by some, and they are out as discovered.

You guys should take a step back and consider how it's gonna be someday when something happens at Duke. And it's gonna happen, it's just a matter of time and human nature because all it takes is a bad decision by a player or two and the internet.

I'm ready to just play basketball too. I'm looking forward to a good season from an interesting team.
And I have to admit, it will be a little sweeter than normal beating Duke this season after all the trash talk that's gone on about this Heels team from some Duke fans.

howardlander
12-23-2013, 05:03 PM
Extremely busy time for me, and I'm only one guy that tries to reply to comments from a whole board it seems at times......


These problems have been caused by very few people who have let the majority of UNC fans, faculty and administrators down.
The "Carolina Way" is alive and well, it was just forgotten by some, and they are out as discovered.


See this is the part where you get in trouble. To all appearances, it's not just a few people, unless by a few you mean a dozen or more. And there does seem to be a lack of anything that could reasonably be called institutional control. Ask yourself this: do you really think that only PJ and LM had cars? Maybe, but maybe not. Where's the investigation? Where, after 3 years of almost continual scandal, is the shame? Does anyone in Chapel Hill or any of their fans actually admit that they did anything wrong? Face it, the response by the University has been inadequate. And that's putting it mildly. Speaking for myself, as an alumni, (but not a fan) I'm pissed.

Howard

Eakane
12-23-2013, 05:07 PM
I'm ready to just play basketball too. I'm looking forward to a good season from an interesting team.
And I have to admit, it will be a little sweeter than normal beating Duke this season after all the trash talk that's gone on about this Heels team from some Duke fans.

Oh Wheat, Wheat, fields of Wheat... flame much?

I don't know about the Duke UNC games (other than I really hope there are three of them this year), ever since the Capel game (that's Jeff, not Jason), you just never know whom the gods of basketball may bless.
But I like your team too, and I think they have an excellent chance of doing better than Kentucky did in this year's NIT. Of course, they may have to host a Robert Morris or a Drexel at home, and those could be nail-biters... for UNC's opponents.

ncexnyc
12-23-2013, 05:48 PM
My wife was working on a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle based on Van Gogh's, "Irises." She had it about 2/3rd's complete, yet I knew what it was.

Funny how all these UNC fans and apologists never have enough facts to get the full picture of what is going on.

rogermortimer
12-23-2013, 07:51 PM
Extremely busy time for me, and I'm only one guy that tries to reply to comments from a whole board it seems at times......

There's no evidence Fats is any kind of UNC booster. It all appears to me he was the "cool" guy with money that befriended Lmac and PJ. Including others in the area. When you are 18-20 years old, you think you know it all, they are finding out some hard truths about their choices.

At any rate, you'll never convince me that Roy or anybody in the AD department knew about the cars, encouraged it or was Ok with it. Argue they should have known about it, but don't accuse "UNC" of cheating without any evidence they knew. This was no situation of trying to get a competitive advantage by an institution offering benefits to keep or recruit a player.

PJ was a discipline/maturity problem from day 1. Not a bad kid, just a problem. I have no doubt Roy held him back last season trying to coach him, trying to get him to understand the game and how to conduct himself.
Roy recruited PJ and is invested in PJ. He likes PJ and he's stubborn and not gonna give up on him, no matter what some you guys think from the high horse.
Everybody knew his talent last season, including Roy. All you have do do is go back to post game comments from his fresh/soph years and read between the lines from Roy's comments on PJ.
It wouldn't surprise me to see PJ stay through spring and continue going to class. Make every effort to be a good teammate from the bench to show that he has learned from his mistakes and prepare himself for the draft.
Roy will not give up on him, and he shouldn't.

Of course nobody at UNC or us fans likes any of this controversy.
UNC is at its core people, not some "thing" you can lump together as one. It's a whole lot of people. Good people. Include us fans and it's huge amount of people.

These problems have been caused by very few people who have let the majority of UNC fans, faculty and administrators down.
The "Carolina Way" is alive and well, it was just forgotten by some, and they are out as discovered.

You guys should take a step back and consider how it's gonna be someday when something happens at Duke. And it's gonna happen, it's just a matter of time and human nature because all it takes is a bad decision by a player or two and the internet.

I'm ready to just play basketball too. I'm looking forward to a good season from an interesting team.
And I have to admit, it will be a little sweeter than normal beating Duke this season after all the trash talk that's gone on about this Heels team from some Duke fans.

Wheat - my brother is a former Phi Beta Kappa student and All American athlete at UNC. He is also a PhD economist and a very renowned investment manager. He indicates to me that the academic scandal, which is not just an athletic department scandal but a huge university issue as a whole because it impacts the integrity of the school in a way that is almost unrecoverable. UNC had an entire department which was essentially a sham, with the result obtained a massive exploitation of students who received little education? And school leadership wasn't aware of what was going on? Heck, a less politically connected school could lose their accreditation over such conduct. When my brother attended Carolina, I think there was some truth to the Carolina Way. But UNC is light years away from it now. Don't entertain any delusions. The entire school lost its way, denigrated centuries of a reputation as the crown public institution of the state and the region, and the only way back is to recognize it. Caterwauling about Duke is irrelevant.

jipops
12-23-2013, 08:38 PM
Extremely busy time for me, and I'm only one guy that tries to reply to comments from a whole board it seems at times......

There's no evidence Fats is any kind of UNC booster. It all appears to me he was the "cool" guy with money that befriended Lmac and PJ. Including others in the area. When you are 18-20 years old, you think you know it all, they are finding out some hard truths about their choices.

At any rate, you'll never convince me that Roy or anybody in the AD department knew about the cars, encouraged it or was Ok with it. Argue they should have known about it, but don't accuse "UNC" of cheating without any evidence they knew. This was no situation of trying to get a competitive advantage by an institution offering benefits to keep or recruit a player.

PJ was a discipline/maturity problem from day 1. Not a bad kid, just a problem. I have no doubt Roy held him back last season trying to coach him, trying to get him to understand the game and how to conduct himself.
Roy recruited PJ and is invested in PJ. He likes PJ and he's stubborn and not gonna give up on him, no matter what some you guys think from the high horse.
Everybody knew his talent last season, including Roy. All you have do do is go back to post game comments from his fresh/soph years and read between the lines from Roy's comments on PJ.
It wouldn't surprise me to see PJ stay through spring and continue going to class. Make every effort to be a good teammate from the bench to show that he has learned from his mistakes and prepare himself for the draft.
Roy will not give up on him, and he shouldn't.

Of course nobody at UNC or us fans likes any of this controversy.
UNC is at its core people, not some "thing" you can lump together as one. It's a whole lot of people. Good people. Include us fans and it's huge amount of people.

These problems have been caused by very few people who have let the majority of UNC fans, faculty and administrators down.
The "Carolina Way" is alive and well, it was just forgotten by some, and they are out as discovered.

You guys should take a step back and consider how it's gonna be someday when something happens at Duke. And it's gonna happen, it's just a matter of time and human nature because all it takes is a bad decision by a player or two and the internet.

I'm ready to just play basketball too. I'm looking forward to a good season from an interesting team.
And I have to admit, it will be a little sweeter than normal beating Duke this season after all the trash talk that's gone on about this Heels team from some Duke fans.

Have to admit, I think this is a great response. I hope you don't get your wish.

Chicago 1995
12-23-2013, 08:46 PM
There's no evidence Fats is any kind of UNC booster. It all appears to me he was the "cool" guy with money that befriended Lmac and PJ. Including others in the area. When you are 18-20 years old, you think you know it all, they are finding out some hard truths about their actions.
....

These problems have been caused by very few people who have let the majority of UNC fans, faculty and administrators down.

The "Carolina Way" is alive and well..

Fats was just the money man? Where, prey tell, did Fats come up with all the money to throw at PJ and LM? That connection to the dental school just doesn't even merit mention? Since that's about the only place he could have got the money, I think that would bring at least a half-I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.ed defense.

And while I get that the NCAA only cracked down on PJ and LM, it's fair to raise an eyebrow to the assertion that they're two lone wolves here. There's enough evidence on social media of PJ having these cars back into last season, of JMM driving some pretty nice rentals, of pictures of Fats with enough UNC hoopsters of recent vintage that just passing this off as just PJ and LM is sticking your head in the sand here.

But that's the Carolina Way. This is the same administration who argued the no-show classes weren't an NCAA violation because non-students could get those benefits too. It's an athletic department that was already on probation and under an edict to monitor social media, only to have Pack Pride find enough evidence of violations on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook that UNC couldn't run from this and mainstream media had to report on it. The Carolina Way is a coach who had a known troublemaker in PJ get caught with weed and a gun and did nothing. That same coach had a guy he kicked off the team for being a giant knucklehead living in a house he homes while he was doing the same knucklehead things that got him booted from the team. It's an AD and a university whose whole strategy was to let the NCAA take the heat for PJ not playing only to find out they'd never asked.

The Carolina Way at this point, is nothing more than an exercise in branding, allowing hypocritical alums to thumb their noses at win at all costs schools like those in the SEC, when in fact, UNC's no different.

I get why Wheat just wants to get to the basketball. Rome's burning around him, but Roy's fiddle music can sound pretty good.

gumbomoop
12-23-2013, 08:48 PM
UNC had an entire department which was essentially a sham....

Second time I've read this comment in this thread, but I don't agree with it. Save for what I infer is a general skepticism re AFAM across institutions (including, presumably, Duke), there's no evidence that AFAM courses were or are "shams." Prof Nyang'Oro's ghost courses were indeed shams, and the fact that grades were changed and signatures were forged in other profs' courses is outrageous.

Nyang'Oro's contemptible behavior unfortunately tainted an entire department, but I hope we can avoid perpetuating the myth that the entire department and its profs and courses were shams. A year or so ago (or 2 - how long has this been going on?), I looked at some of UNC's AFAM course offerings, including syllabi, and they looked academically and intellectually solid to me. Challenging, even, in many cases.

AAA, I note that in Dan Kane's latest, we are slyly reminded that (the under-investigated) Jan Boxill "has said little as new details of the academic (sic: athletic/academic, heavy emphasis on the former) fraud emerged." There's still a story there. Possibly involving a sham.

richardjackson199
12-23-2013, 09:56 PM
Extremely busy time for me, and I'm only one guy that tries to reply to comments from a whole board it seems at times......

There's no evidence Fats is any kind of UNC booster. It all appears to me he was the "cool" guy with money that befriended Lmac and PJ. Including others in the area. When you are 18-20 years old, you think you know it all, they are finding out some hard truths about their choices.

At any rate, you'll never convince me that Roy or anybody in the AD department knew about the cars, encouraged it or was Ok with it. Argue they should have known about it, but don't accuse "UNC" of cheating without any evidence they knew. This was no situation of trying to get a competitive advantage by an institution offering benefits to keep or recruit a player. When you add up the years of even just what we do know (which is certainly less than the full truth), that is what it looks like. We don't have all the evidence because UNC keeps covering it up. Even UNC's basketball team has had a lot of guys reject a certain first round draft pick to return to school since Roy arrived. I'm sure some of them made the decision for good reasons. But now I don't know, it's curious. The decision to return seemed out of character for PJ. And now we know he was getting lots of improper benefits.

Yes Roy and the Athletic department should have known about it and should have prevented it. At the very least they should have responded with sound and fury when it happened. Their response was embarrassing. Especially given the climate of improper benefits at UNC, they should have made it abundantly clear this behavior would not be tolerated. Trying to reduce LMac's suspension after multiple improper benefits and trying to get PJ back on the team until the "mistakes (evidence)" were too great is not saying this behavior won't be tolerated. I believe it sends the opposite message. It enables and even reinforces that behavior. Punishments will be minimized.

Roy and Bubba are responsible for making sure their players understand NCAA compliance. There is evidence of something regarding PJ. That is why originally Bubba said PJ would play. Only after "all the mistakes" PJ made became clear, did Bubba come to the tough decision not to apply for reinstatement. That application would have meant exposing information they did not want exposed. Note in the PR, "PJ made mistakes," "LM made mistakes", "Marvin Austin made mistakes," "Greg Little made mistakes" "Quinn made mistakes" "Jennifer Wiley made mistakes" on and on. How about someone in the UNC athletic department taking responsibility for their mistakes in this ongoing disaster. I'd prefer Bubba & Roy stating that they've seen enough (rather than dodging questions) and backing that up with action. I would have preferred that response as soon as they knew more benefits were being received. I remember back when the football stuff was going on Roy implying that no improper benefits were in his basketball program. Maybe none had been exposed, yet.

PJ was a discipline/maturity problem from day 1. Not a bad kid, just a problem. I have no doubt Roy held him back last season trying to coach him, trying to get him to understand the game and how to conduct himself.
Roy recruited PJ and is invested in PJ. He likes PJ and he's stubborn and not gonna give up on him, no matter what some you guys think from the high horse.
Everybody knew his talent last season, including Roy. All you have do do is go back to post game comments from his fresh/soph years and read between the lines from Roy's comments on PJ.

I'm not saying give up on him. Obviously we disagree on how to help instill discipline, maturity, integrity, and a sense of taking responsibility for your actions in a guy like PJ.

It wouldn't surprise me to see PJ stay through spring and continue going to class. Make every effort to be a good teammate from the bench to show that he has learned from his mistakes and prepare himself for the draft.
Roy will not give up on him, and he shouldn't.

Of course nobody at UNC or us fans likes any of this controversy.
UNC is at its core people, not some "thing" you can lump together as one. It's a whole lot of people. Good people. Include us fans and it's huge amount of people.

Yes, and those people deserve much better from the leaders in their university and athletic department. Those people should be appalled.
These problems have been caused by very few people who have let the majority of UNC fans, faculty and administrators down. I would argue that it's not very few people any more. This is a pattern.

The "Carolina Way" is alive and well, it was just forgotten by some, and they are out as discovered.

You guys should take a step back and consider how it's gonna be someday when something happens at Duke. And it's gonna happen, it's just a matter of time and human nature because all it takes is a bad decision by a player or two and the internet.

You're right. Things happen at Duke too, and will continue to happen. I will judge my university by how they respond. When the football player got in trouble for drugs a few years ago, he was immediately kicked off the team. When Jela Duncan had an academic issue a few days ago, he certainly could have gotten the standard 2 semester suspension (which includes the summer) and played next year. He was suspended not only for the bowl game, but also for next football season. That was an immediate and appropriate response. The response at Notre Dame with the Grant kid releasing that statement was even better. He was accountable for his actions. Nothing got dragged out for months with a response meant to minimize the punishment, cover up evidence, and ensure the highest chance of wins for an athletic team.



I'm ready to just play basketball too. I'm looking forward to a good season from an interesting team.
And I have to admit, it will be a little sweeter than normal beating Duke this season after all the trash talk that's gone on about this Heels team from some Duke fans.

My responses in bold above.

As I've said in other threads - I agree UNC has an interesting team. You should love players like Paige. The key for your team this year will be JMM, and he's more than capable. Our team is interesting this year too. Go Duke!

Thanks for your responses and Merry Christmas Wheat!

Furniture
12-23-2013, 10:56 PM
The entire school lost its way, denigrated centuries of a reputation as the crown public institution of the state and the region, and the only way back is to recognize it.

"Entire school"

That seems to me to be a little bit of an exaggeration!

Anyway, I feel sorry for Wheat. The guy is quite often asked to come on here to give his opinion and then his is quite plainly ripped apart by all. Not very nice in my opinion....

moonpie23
12-23-2013, 11:10 PM
wheat is a good guy, but he doesn't know when to drop the resistance……i mean, how could he? Unc am his homies……….he's got to stick by them no matter how ridiculous the position….

richardjackson199
12-24-2013, 12:14 AM
"Entire school"

That seems to me to be a little bit of an exaggeration!

Anyway, I feel sorry for Wheat. The guy is quite often asked to come on here to give his opinion and then his is quite plainly ripped apart by all. Not very nice in my opinion....

I tried to make it clear that I respect Wheat's opinions. I really wanted to hear it from his perspective. Sometimes I disagree with his opinions just as others disagree with mine. I am trying to disagree respectfully, and it sounds like other posters are too. Wheat adds quite a bit to this board, and I believe it's very helpful to hear things from the perspective of an intelligent, die-hard Tar Heel. I respect your opinion that we aren't being nice to Wheat. He has thicker skin than me because I would not try to defend my position over on the IC. We are all just calling it like we see it. I may sound like I'm on a high horse, but I believe integrity is paramount, especially when compared to winning a sporting event. Thankfully I believe Coach K, a West Point guy, likely feels that way too.

oldnavy
12-24-2013, 06:04 AM
I disagree with Wheat on one particular. He seems to think that the majority of UNC is still honoring "The Carolina Way". I see no evidence at all that this is true. The vast majority of fans, alumni, staff, etc... seem to take Wheat's position.

As far as how would we handle it if it happened at Duke? We can cross that bridge when we get to it, but this is also reflective of how UNC fans that I know are dealing with the issue... deflect, duck, defend.... bring up Lance Thomas, Corey Maggette, anything that can get the discussion off of UNC.

Here's the thing. The UNC faithful are not going to be swayed. Wheat for example has already made up his mind that no one knew about the cars, etc... that tells you all you need to know about how "open" to discovering what really happened the UNC fan base and staff are. No one will ever convince them, because they have already decided that there is nothing to any of this. Just a few bad apples who are really "good" people who made "mistakes". Well, maybe. But the real issue isn't what PJ or LM did, it is how UNC has reacted to what they did...

Duke and non-UNC fans can go on and on about this, but don't expect anything other than what we have seen from the UNC folks. They just can't see that their baby is ugly.

nocilla
12-24-2013, 06:46 AM
You guys should take a step back and consider how it's gonna be someday when something happens at Duke. And it's gonna happen, it's just a matter of time and human nature because all it takes is a bad decision by a player or two and the internet.


You mean like academic fraud from a big time athlete? See Jela Duncan. Here's the difference; Duke handled the situation. UNC would have tried to hide it. When it was finally unveiled by Pack Pride, UNC would then blame the NCAA for being to harsh.

JasonEvans
12-24-2013, 07:45 AM
Even UNC's basketball team has had a lot of guys reject a certain first round draft pick to return to school since Roy arrived. I'm sure some of them made the decision for good reasons. But now I don't know, it's curious. The decision to return seemed out of character for PJ. And now we know he was getting lots of improper benefits.

Richard, it appears you are saying that one of the things that motivated PJ to return to UNC versus entering the draft was that he was getting large improper benefits to entice him to stick around. I think that's a pretty weak argument as there is no way the rental cars and other "favors" given to PJ come anywhere close to matching the salary and other fun benefits of being in the NBA. I think PJ stuck around because he and Roy decided it would be best for his career and would enhance his draft stock.

-Jason "I'm glad folks are largely playing nicely with Wheat. There aren't many Carolina faithful willing to engage in this kind of debate here so he is to be praised!" Evans

Wheat/"/"/"
12-24-2013, 07:48 AM
Here's the thing. The UNC faithful are not going to be swayed. Wheat for example has already made up his mind that no one knew about the cars, etc... that tells you all you need to know about how "open" to discovering what really happened the UNC fan base and staff are. No one will ever convince them, because they have already decided that there is nothing to any of this.


"Here's the thing. The Duke faithful are not going to be swayed. oldnavy for example has already made up his mind that no one knew about the jewelry, etc... that tells you all you need to know about how "open" to discovering what really happened the Duke fan base and staff are. No one will ever convince them, because they have already decided that there is nothing to any of this."


I changed four words from that statement... I hope you see the irony from my perspective.

CharlestonDevil
12-24-2013, 08:02 AM
I disagree with Wheat on one particular. He seems to think that the majority of UNC is still honoring "The Carolina Way". I see no evidence at all that this is true. The vast majority of fans, alumni, staff, etc... seem to take Wheat's position.

As far as how would we handle it if it happened at Duke? We can cross that bridge when we get to it, but this is also reflective of how UNC fans that I know are dealing with the issue... deflect, duck, defend.... bring up Lance Thomas, Corey Maggette, anything that can get the discussion off of UNC.

Here's the thing. The UNC faithful are not going to be swayed. Wheat for example has already made up his mind that no one knew about the cars, etc... that tells you all you need to know about how "open" to discovering what really happened the UNC fan base and staff are. No one will ever convince them, because they have already decided that there is nothing to any of this. Just a few bad apples who are really "good" people who made "mistakes". Well, maybe. But the real issue isn't what PJ or LM did, it is how UNC has reacted to what they did...

Duke and non-UNC fans can go on and on about this, but don't expect anything other than what we have seen from the UNC folks. They just can't see that their baby is ugly.

Dead on. Wheat is an amazing contributor to the board and puts up with far more disagreement and contention than most of us would be willing to if the situation were reversed. And for that he deserves major credit.

However, two significant items where I believe he is wrong on this topic:
1) Where there is smoke there is fire. And the entire University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has been BILLOWING smoke for several years now. You cannot limit their problems to just a few individuals "going astray". There is a crisis of culture over there and while it is certainly reasonable to discuss the extent, it is undeniable that the problems are at a minimum prevalent just under the surface across all levels of the university. We have several years of data/examples from different athletic departments, to academics, and at different levels going all the way up to the leadership. I'm not discounting that good, upstanding people exist in their fan base, but it is past the point of trying to explain away every scenario that pops up. There is an core issue and the first step is ADMITTING IT.
2) If and when Duke faces a PR issue such as those at UNC I believe the reaction will be vastly different. Why? Because I know too many Duke fans including people on this board who regardless of the consequences want to get to the truth. The lacrosse scandal and the Thomas controversy are two excellent examples. While there will always be those fans who will just be homers, I think Duke University and DBR in particular is comprised of more reasonable people than other average fan bases. Even Wheat can't disagree with that because if it weren't true he wouldn't be an active member over here.

Whew, with all that said.... MERRY CHRISTMAS to all. And Go Duke.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-24-2013, 08:07 AM
Thanks to the majority for having a spirited, friendly conversation. If you've ever wonder'd why I continue to hang out here despite the beatings I have to try and fend off all the time...and not other boards...that's the reason.

At the end of the day I remind myself it's just a message board full of varying opinions and hope nobody takes a view so serious that we can't have a frank, lively, mature discussion....no matter what the topic is revolving around our favorite sport.

Again, Merry Christmas to all and I'm ready to gear up for some hoops talk in another week as things get rolling.

moonpie23
12-24-2013, 08:11 AM
"Here's the thing. The Duke faithful are not going to be swayed. oldnavy for example has already made up his mind that no one knew about the jewelry, etc... that tells you all you need to know about how "open" to discovering what really happened the Duke fan base and staff are. No one will ever convince them, because they have already decided that there is nothing to any of this."


I changed four words from that statement... I hope you see the irony from my perspective.

complete deflection……….thanks for proving his point….

richardjackson199
12-24-2013, 08:45 AM
"Here's the thing. The Duke faithful are not going to be swayed. oldnavy for example has already made up his mind that no one knew about the jewelry, etc... that tells you all you need to know about how "open" to discovering what really happened the Duke fan base and staff are. No one will ever convince them, because they have already decided that there is nothing to any of this."


I changed four words from that statement... I hope you see the irony from my perspective.

Haha Wheat, I was waiting for you to bring up Lance Thomas. :) To me, the difference is that from everything I could find out, no one at Duke knew anything about that until Lance Thomas was no longer a student at Duke. If Lance was a student going into a new season, I would have expected him to make a statement. What we know: Lance Thomas got scammed by a jeweler. He had gone home for Christmas break and was away from Duke. It appears he tried to loan out some expensive jewelry to wear to a party and then return it. He got scammed when they told him he didn't read the fine print and owed them lots of money. By the time anyone hears about this, Duke has already won the 2010 National Championship and Lance is no longer a student athlete at Duke. Of course I would like to know exactly what happened. It appears Lance's family had money that he could have used to loan out the jewelry. But it's true, we don't really know exactly what happened. Duke and Coach K can't make Lance Thomas talk. He isn't a student here. The NCAA has nothing to investigate - Lance and the jeweler aren't talking. Duke doesn't know anything. It sounds like Lance made a stupid decision. To me it looks pretty highly unlikely that anyone associated with Duke was giving Lance Thomas (certainly not one of the standouts on that team at that point) improper benefits. This happened in New Jersey when he was home for Christmas break. Lance was smart not to talk in this situation. He doesn't have to talk, he is no longer a student athlete at Duke. Why would he want to expose whatever stupid decision he likely made to get scammed? Wheat is right - I'll choose to believe here that based on what I know, Duke absolutely does not deserve to forfeit their 2010 National Championship. However, if Coach K or Duke somehow learned that Lance was being paid improper benefits, then I would expect them to value integrity over winning and even over a national championship. I'm confident that Coach K does not believe Lance was being paid improper benefits. And this certainly looks like an isolated incident of at worst a kid making a stupid mistake and getting scammed (not benefitted). In my mind this is not even in the same area code as the pattern of enabling, corruption, and improper benefits that has been going on at UNC for years.
And I agree with Wheat on one thing - can't wait for the ACC season so we can talk some current hoops!

jv001
12-24-2013, 08:55 AM
I disagree with Wheat on one particular. He seems to think that the majority of UNC is still honoring "The Carolina Way". I see no evidence at all that this is true. The vast majority of fans, alumni, staff, etc... seem to take Wheat's position.

As far as how would we handle it if it happened at Duke? We can cross that bridge when we get to it, but this is also reflective of how UNC fans that I know are dealing with the issue... deflect, duck, defend.... bring up Lance Thomas, Corey Maggette, anything that can get the discussion off of UNC.

Here's the thing. The UNC faithful are not going to be swayed. Wheat for example has already made up his mind that no one knew about the cars, etc... that tells you all you need to know about how "open" to discovering what really happened the UNC fan base and staff are. No one will ever convince them, because they have already decided that there is nothing to any of this. Just a few bad apples who are really "good" people who made "mistakes". Well, maybe. But the real issue isn't what PJ or LM did, it is how UNC has reacted to what they did...

Duke and non-UNC fans can go on and on about this, but don't expect anything other than what we have seen from the UNC folks. They just can't see that their baby is ugly.

And there is the real carolina way. Winning above everything else. I have seen posts on this topic from unc alum and almost all are upset over the way roy and the school have handled all this mess. One of my very best friends who is unc alum is ashamed of the the way things have been been handled by roy and the school. Someone at Duke may really mess up, but I bet it will not be swept under the rug. GoDuke!

richardjackson199
12-24-2013, 08:56 AM
Richard, it appears you are saying that one of the things that motivated PJ to return to UNC versus entering the draft was that he was getting large improper benefits to entice him to stick around. I think that's a pretty weak argument as there is no way the rental cars and other "favors" given to PJ come anywhere close to matching the salary and other fun benefits of being in the NBA. I think PJ stuck around because he and Roy decided it would be best for his career and would enhance his draft stock.

-Jason "I'm glad folks are largely playing nicely with Wheat. There aren't many Carolina faithful willing to engage in this kind of debate here so he is to be praised!" Evans

I'll have to agree with Jason here. That is a pretty weak argument on my part. Since Roy has been there, I have just been somewhat amazed that he has gotten so many UNC guys to pass up the draft to return to school. He got 3 years out of Ty Lawson? James McAdoo has passed up a certain NBA draft pick twice now, and each year it seems to hurt his draft stock. I couldn't believe Harrison Barnes came back for his 2nd year. He started slow, but his worth and potential were pretty obvious to NBA scouts even by the end of his freshman year. UNC has had lots of guys return. I have no evidence that improper benefits contributed to any of those decisions. But we do know now multiple players are getting improper benefits - including 2 basketball players supposed to be on this year's team. Sure NBA riches are greater, but driving luxury cars, free cell phones, paid parking tickets, and hotel rooms can improve college lifestyle and could weigh into a decision to stay or leave in my mind. It looks clear to me that even from what Bubba implied "PJ made so many mistakes" that he got more improper benefits at higher financial value than UNC wanted to be made public. I guess I should not imply that guys are coming back to Carolina partly because of these improper benefits. But I do find it curious.

oldnavy
12-24-2013, 09:50 AM
"Here's the thing. The Duke faithful are not going to be swayed. oldnavy for example has already made up his mind that no one knew about the jewelry, etc... that tells you all you need to know about how "open" to discovering what really happened the Duke fan base and staff are. No one will ever convince them, because they have already decided that there is nothing to any of this."


I changed four words from that statement... I hope you see the irony from my perspective.

This is exactly my point. You guys are wallowing in a mess over there and the best you can do is to bring up LT to rationalize. It is pure deflection.

One other point. I find it somewhat puzzeling that UNC takes "comfort" in saying Roy or the AD knew nothing of PJ's or LM's extra benefits.

So as long as Roy and the Administration are unaware of what is happening, then everything is good?? If that is the attitude, then Roy shouldn't come out of his office except to coach practice and games! He is much better off being totally disengaged if all he has to do is claim ignorance to shirk his responsibility as head coach.

The people you are paying MILLIONS of dollars a year to steward your program don't know squat, but that is OK and you are cool with it?? My background is quite different. We held out leaders to a much higher standard, so excuse me if I just don't buy this.

You mentioned that PJ was a problem from the beginning. That Roy was more than aware of PJ and his proclivity for finding trouble. Yet, Roy and apparently everyone else on the basketball staff had NO IDEA that PJ was driving cars that he could not possibly afford? No one asked PJ where he got the cool rides?? Chapel Hill is a SMALL place. I find it extremely hard to believe that PJ and LM could be tooling around the hill without being noticed and people talking. I don't think you would have to be Matlock to "discover" this.

But for arguments sake, lets say that they could go unnoticed. Wouldn't it be in PJ's best interest and UNC's best interest, since he was KNOWN to be a problem, to have some sort of accountability measures in place? In other words, shouldn't the staff have made sure that PJ WAS NOTICED? I realize that no one can watch a kid 24/7 nor should they be expected to, but how about putting the word out to the staff and others to keep an eye out for anything that looks out of place.... like PJ pulling up to the gym in a different ride each week.

Roy is a great friend and mentor to those kids. He stands behind them 100% after they make their "mistakes". How about a little proactive leadership that helps keep the screw ups from happening in the first place?

I find it telling that Coach K writes books on leadership and Roy writes books on his struggles....

Anyway, Merry Christmas Wheat, I know we will never see this the same way, but I do enjoy your opinions and comments. I wish you and yours the best in 2014.

grad_devil
12-24-2013, 10:10 AM
...One other point. I find it somewhat puzzeling (sic) that UNC takes "comfort" in saying Roy or the AD knew nothing of PJ's or LM's extra benefits.

So as long as Roy and the Administration are unaware of what is happening, then everything is good?? If that is the attitude, then Roy shouldn't come out of his office except to coach practice and games! He is much better off being totally disengaged if all he has to do is claim ignorance to shirk his responsibility as head coach. ...

Definition: See "Lack of Institutional Control".

OldPhiKap
12-24-2013, 10:40 AM
Definition: See "Lack of Institutional Control".

Since you asked, I found this to be helpful:

compliance.pac-10.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

edit: that is a pdf that I cannot get to link. I Googled NCAA lack of institutional control" and got that PDF from the PAC-10. More information here:

http://ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/enforcement/process/charging

"What is institutional control?

Institutional control refers to the efforts institutions make to comply with NCAA legislation and to detect and investigate violations that do occur. NCAA member institutions are obligated to maintain appropriate levels of institutional control."

oldnavy
12-24-2013, 11:47 AM
Since you asked, I found this to be helpful:

compliance.pac-10.org/thetools/instctl.pdf

edit: that is a pdf that I cannot get to link. I Googled NCAA lack of institutional control" and got that PDF from the PAC-10. More information here:

http://ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/enforcement/process/charging

"What is institutional control?

Institutional control refers to the efforts institutions make to comply with NCAA legislation and to detect and investigate violations that do occur. NCAA member institutions are obligated to maintain appropriate levels of institutional control."

You can't control what you choose to ignore. If you can't "detect" players driving better cars than you have, then I think it is reasonable to assume that you are not trying very hard.

Just had an interesting talk with a UNC buddy. He is rather put out by Roy having PJ on the bench. He seems to think that it is Roy's way of protesting the AD's decision to not appeal for PJ.

I think that keeping PJ on the bench is a BAD idea. First, it keeps the PJ mess on the front page, and every game that is played on TV will result in the commentators discussing the issue. Second, it is not fair to the teammates that didn't take stuff. It is a distraction. If Roy feels strongly about letting PJ practice, then fine... but what is the point of having him sit on the bench at home games? At least one UNC fan thinks it is Roy massaging his ego...

Kedsy
12-24-2013, 12:29 PM
I think that keeping PJ on the bench is a BAD idea. First, it keeps the PJ mess on the front page, and every game that is played on TV will result in the commentators discussing the issue. Second, it is not fair to the teammates that didn't take stuff. It is a distraction. If Roy feels strongly about letting PJ practice, then fine... but what is the point of having him sit on the bench at home games? At least one UNC fan thinks it is Roy massaging his ego...

Maybe he thinks he can slip him into the game without anybody noticing. ;)

OldPhiKap
12-24-2013, 12:47 PM
From the same link:

"What does it mean when an institution is found to have a lack of institutional control?

A lack of institutional control is found when the Committee on Infractions determines that major violations occurred and the institution failed to display:
* Adequate compliance measures.
* Appropriate education on those compliance measures.
* Sufficient monitoring to ensure the compliance measures are followed. [or]
* Swift action upon learning of a violation."

Sound familiar?

BD80
12-24-2013, 01:05 PM
... Just had an interesting talk with a UNC buddy. He is rather put out by Roy having PJ on the bench. ...

... but what is the point of having him sit on the bench at home games? At least one UNC fan thinks it is Roy massaging his ego...

To help count the timeouts ol' roy is keeping in his pocket

sagegrouse
12-24-2013, 01:31 PM
From the same link:

"What does it mean when an institution is found to have a lack of institutional control?

A lack of institutional control is found when the Committee on Infractions determines that major violations occurred and the institution failed to display:
* Adequate compliance measures.
* Appropriate education on those compliance measures.
* Sufficient monitoring to ensure the compliance measures are followed. [or]
* Swift action upon learning of a violation."

Sound familiar?

This reads like an audit analysis of any compliance staff and operation, including, most importantly, its overseers.

In other contexts, the director of the compliance staff would document every single thing the c-staff did, in order to show a lot of attention to the subject and immediate actions on discovering a problem. This would include communications with other executives. In that way, when a huge problem appears, the staff can claim it acted promptly when it first heard of problems.

The UNC Compliance Office on l'affaire PJ might say: "When we heard of his arrest and the subsequent revelations about rental cars, we jumped all over it, reported it to the higher ups, the coaching staff and the NCAA [all of whom read the papers and follow the internet]. Here are our records. We did the same thing with LMcD. It is not our job, or UNC's, to follow our athletes around and spy on them."

Unhappily, no matter how awful and repeated the episodes of athlete misbehavior, the insititution will skate if it can show a record of action and followup.

sage

77devil
12-24-2013, 02:16 PM
This reads like an audit analysis of any compliance staff and operation, including, most importantly, its overseers.

In other contexts, the director of the compliance staff would document every single thing the c-staff did, in order to show a lot of attention to the subject and immediate actions on discovering a problem. This would include communications with other executives. In that way, when a huge problem appears, the staff can claim it acted promptly when it first heard of problems.

The UNC Compliance Office on l'affaire PJ might say: "When we heard of his arrest and the subsequent revelations about rental cars, we jumped all over it, reported it to the higher ups, the coaching staff and the NCAA [all of whom read the papers and follow the internet]. Here are our records. We did the same thing with LMcD. It is not our job, or UNC's, to follow our athletes around and spy on them."

Unhappily, no matter how awful and repeated the episodes of athlete misbehavior, the insititution will skate if it can show a record of action and followup.

sage

This is largely correct. However, an institution, starting with the President and the Board, must additionally set an unequivocally honest tone at the top an reinforce it continuously. The culture of an institution reflects the behaviors and priorities of its leaders over time. They must walk the talk. Even the best organizations have transgressors. How the infractions are handled speak volumes to the rest of the institution and its regulators. Having a substantive, well documented compliance program is critically important, but it cannot be truly effective without strong tone at the top. There is no evidence that I have seen to date to suggest that UNC has either.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-24-2013, 02:20 PM
Haha Wheat, I was waiting for you to bring up Lance Thomas. :) To me, the difference is that from everything I could find out, no one at Duke knew anything about that until Lance Thomas was no longer a student at Duke. If Lance was a student going into a new season, I would have expected him to make a statement. What we know: Lance Thomas got scammed by a jeweler. He had gone home for Christmas break and was away from Duke. It appears he tried to loan out some expensive jewelry to wear to a party and then return it. He got scammed when they told him he didn't read the fine print and owed them lots of money. By the time anyone hears about this, Duke has already won the 2010 National Championship and Lance is no longer a student athlete at Duke. Of course I would like to know exactly what happened. It appears Lance's family had money that he could have used to loan out the jewelry. But it's true, we don't really know exactly what happened. Duke and Coach K can't make Lance Thomas talk. He isn't a student here. The NCAA has nothing to investigate - Lance and the jeweler aren't talking. Duke doesn't know anything. It sounds like Lance made a stupid decision. To me it looks pretty highly unlikely that anyone associated with Duke was giving Lance Thomas (certainly not one of the standouts on that team at that point) improper benefits. This happened in New Jersey when he was home for Christmas break. Lance was smart not to talk in this situation. He doesn't have to talk, he is no longer a student athlete at Duke. Why would he want to expose whatever stupid decision he likely made to get scammed? Wheat is right - I'll choose to believe here that based on what I know, Duke absolutely does not deserve to forfeit their 2010 National Championship. However, if Coach K or Duke somehow learned that Lance was being paid improper benefits, then I would expect them to value integrity over winning and even over a national championship. I'm confident that Coach K does not believe Lance was being paid improper benefits. And this certainly looks like an isolated incident of at worst a kid making a stupid mistake and getting scammed (not benefitted). In my mind this is not even in the same area code as the pattern of enabling, corruption, and improper benefits that has been going on at UNC for years.
And I agree with Wheat on one thing - can't wait for the ACC season so we can talk some current hoops!


No deflection intended, just pointing out the irony of the demand for more investigation when it suits a fan base.

richardjackson199
12-24-2013, 03:01 PM
No deflection intended, just pointing out the irony of the demand for more investigation when it suits a fan base.

Yes, but the demand for more investigation to end years of continuous improper benefits should come from the members of that institution who purport The Carolina Way, and then redefine that term by their actions. It is the members of that institution who are the biggest losers here, not the opposing fan base. That is what is ironic. It now means at Carolina we look the other Way.

Wander
12-24-2013, 03:04 PM
Does every single Carolina-related thread here have to devolve into a conversation about whether Wheat is a good poster or not? This should be added to the pocket reference thing.

sagegrouse
12-24-2013, 03:21 PM
This is largely correct. However, an institution, starting with the President and the Board, must additionally set an unequivocally honest tone at the top an reinforce it continuously. The culture of an institution reflects the behaviors and priorities of its leaders over time. They must walk the talk. Even the best organizations have transgressors. How the infractions are handled speak volumes to the rest of the institution and its regulators. Having a substantive, well documented compliance program is critically important, but it cannot be truly effective without strong tone at the top. There is no evidence that I have seen to date to suggest that UNC has either.

I agree 100 percent, but the NCAA will not, I believe, convict a school of "lack of institutional control" if it checks all the compliance boxes.

JasonEvans
12-24-2013, 04:39 PM
Maybe he thinks he can slip him into the game without anybody noticing. ;)

AP (Chapel Hill, NC) - UNC Head Basketball Coach Roy Williams today expressed disappointed that PJ Hairston will not be able to suit up for UNC ever again. However, Williams took the opportunity to introduce a new walk-on to the UNC team. TJ Harrison has really impressed Roy in practice thus far and will be taking a large role for the team moving forward...

-Jason "the above idea was first expressed in an email to me... but I just had to share" Evans

OldPhiKap
12-24-2013, 04:59 PM
AP (Chapel Hill, NC) - UNC Head Basketball Coach Roy Williams today expressed disappointed that PJ Hairston will not be able to suit up for UNC ever again. However, Williams took the opportunity to introduce a new walk-on to the UNC team. TJ Harrison has really impressed Roy in practice thus far and will be taking a large role for the team moving forward...

-Jason "the above idea was first expressed in an email to me... but I just had to share" Evans

Maybe UNC has been spelling his name wrong all these years, and Duke actually had it right!

duke80
12-24-2013, 05:51 PM
No deflection intended, just pointing out the irony of the demand for more investigation when it suits a fan base.

I'm not surprised or upset at UNC wanting to gain every advantage possible and support their student athletes.
I am surprised and upset that they cheat in order to achieve it and then say oops mistakes were made but not
by anyone in any position of responsibility, just a few bad apples. Most people in this country want to forgive
and move on, but cheating and breaking the rules tends to spoil it for everyone else. I got caught cheating once
and that's all it took. I didn't like what I saw about myself. I hear nothing of the kind from UNC or Wheat for that matter.

What I have always found impressive is Duke's standard of excellence that has withstood the test of time.
Further, when compared to comparable schools like Stanford, it is even more impressive.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-24-2013, 07:16 PM
I'm not surprised or upset at UNC wanting to gain every advantage possible and support their student athletes.
I am surprised and upset that they cheat in order to achieve it and then say oops mistakes were made but not
by anyone in any position of responsibility, just a few bad apples. Most people in this country want to forgive
and move on, but cheating and breaking the rules tends to spoil it for everyone else. I got caught cheating once
and that's all it took. I didn't like what I saw about myself. I hear nothing of the kind from UNC or Wheat for that matter.

What I have always found impressive is Duke's standard of excellence that has withstood the test of time.
Further, when compared to comparable schools like Stanford, it is even more impressive.

There were some rules broken, and the price is being paid. But repeating UNC cheated with every breath just won't make it so.

Here's an article worth reading (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season) regarding Roy and dealing with the off season and PJ. You guys will love the Roy trademarked 3rd person references.

Duvall
12-24-2013, 07:30 PM
Roy on Roy: A study in self-pity. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season)


“I know Roy Williams,” he said. “My friends know Roy Williams. I’ve been the designated driver since I was 14 years old. I’ve never had a regular cigarette in my mouth in my entire life. Not marijuana, not anything. Never.

“To act like I don’t have principles or morals is something that’s really bothered me. To act like I’m a win-at-all-costs guy bothers me. I’ve never been about that. I’ve done so many things in recruiting over the years to back off of certain situations just because it wasn’t something I believed in.

“Yet right now, for the last six months, people have feelings or thoughts about Roy Williams that they never would’ve had. The disturbance this has caused and the feelings this has caused is unlike anything I’ve ever dealt with before.”

This is unbecoming of a head coach.

OldPhiKap
12-24-2013, 07:33 PM
Roy on Roy: A study in self-pity. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season)



This is unbecoming of a head coach.

Odd, considering the representation up thread that everyone knew PJ was a problem child. . . .

77devil
12-24-2013, 07:51 PM
I agree 100 percent, but the NCAA will not, I believe, convict a school of "lack of institutional control" if it checks all the compliance boxes.

Indeed. In fact it would appear that certain schools don't even have to check all the boxes to satisfy the NCAA.

77devil
12-24-2013, 07:59 PM
Here's an article worth reading (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season) regarding Roy and dealing with the off season and PJ. You guys will love the Roy trademarked 3rd person references.

Nauseating. Fear and loathing in Chapel Hill

BlueDevilBrowns
12-24-2013, 08:01 PM
Roy on Roy: A study in self-pity. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season)



This is unbecoming of a head coach.

So true. My first reaction was to laugh but I actually find it sad and embarrassing for a leader of men to portray himself this way.

duke80
12-24-2013, 08:07 PM
There were some rules broken, and the price is being paid. But repeating UNC cheated with every breath just won't make it so.

Here's an article worth reading (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season) regarding Roy and dealing with the off season and PJ. You guys will love the Roy trademarked 3rd person references.

Hey Wheat, thanks for the link. It's nice to get some insight into Roy and what kind of person and coach he is.
I frankly didn't know he cares as much as he does. Merry Christmas.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-24-2013, 08:20 PM
Roy on Roy: A study in self-pity. (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season)



This is unbecoming of a head coach.

I see him as refreshingly open and honest over a difficult last few months in that article.

And it wasn't so much PJ was a problem as he was just a little immature and didn't listen and follow instructions as well as Roy expected. He has always been well liked and accepted by the players and staff.

oldnavy
12-25-2013, 07:32 AM
Odd, considering the representation up thread that everyone knew PJ was a problem child. . . .

So, PJ is bigger than the University? LM is bigger than the University? Players before the reputation and integrity of the school??? Not a philosophy that will endear you to your employer or stakeholders.

I am not sure I follow this line of thinking... I would think that no one player is bigger than the school or reputation of the school... oh well..

Also, it is quite telling that the Administration at UNC has such little faith in Roy Williams. That he was not heavily involved in the decision regarding PJ tells me that they don't trust Roy to do what is right by the University. Which, when you read the comments makes sense, and it also may explain why PJ is on the bench... (Roy's way of making a statement to the AD), it will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the long run.

sagegrouse
12-25-2013, 10:04 AM
There were some rules broken, and the price is being paid. But repeating UNC cheated with every breath just won't make it so.

Here's an article worth reading (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season) regarding Roy and dealing with the off season and PJ. You guys will love the Roy trademarked 3rd person references.

The money quotes are at the end, with the self-referential (ooohh!) in the third person:


“I know Roy Williams,” he said. “My friends know Roy Williams. I’ve been the designated driver since I was 14 years old. I’ve never had a regular cigarette in my mouth in my entire life. Not marijuana, not anything. Never.

“To act like I don’t have principles or morals is something that’s really bothered me. To act like I’m a win-at-all-costs guy bothers me. I’ve never been about that. I’ve done so many things in recruiting over the years to back off of certain situations just because it wasn’t something I believed in.

“Yet right now, for the last six months, people have feelings or thoughts about Roy Williams that they never would’ve had. The disturbance this has caused and the feelings this has caused is unlike anything I’ve ever dealt with before.”

OK, guys, back off! ;) Especially you who post at Pack Pride. We're getting to him.

I won't pick his words apart. I did enough textual criticism -- and badly -- when I took Religion 55, back when the ink was still wet on the New Testament. Boy! The price of having a rotten apple in the program is hu-u-u-u-ge! And, it makes me think what the recruitment of "second-story man" Chris Washburn did to Valvano. He was never the same after that.

sagegrouse

chaosmage
12-25-2013, 11:17 AM
As so many others have said, thinks that the whole point was designed to get some pity and some marketing for dadgummed ol' Huckleberry. I simply ask this question of the board - because I wouldn't know. Were there ever articles like this from K? Perhaps discussing his work and struggles with his back and hips, but I can't imagine that the wallowing in one's self that Roy displays would ever come out of K. As a teacher, I can understand the struggling and pushing through that coaches have to do. I just fought through the flu during Christmastime for a band director (a parade and a concert), but you didn't hear me griping about it other than the occasional "this sucks, but we push on."

If there is any proof to the contrary, lay it on me.

Happy Holidays to the best fans in the world!

hudlow
12-25-2013, 12:10 PM
I can imagine how Coach Williams might describe a day on the links...

"Ol' Roy hooked it into the dadgum trees."

"I made a birdie putt."

ricks68
12-25-2013, 12:44 PM
Wheat - my brother is a former Phi Beta Kappa student and All American athlete at UNC. He is also a PhD economist and a very renowned investment manager. He indicates to me that the academic scandal, which is not just an athletic department scandal but a huge university issue as a whole because it impacts the integrity of the school in a way that is almost unrecoverable. UNC had an entire department which was essentially a sham, with the result obtained a massive exploitation of students who received little education? And school leadership wasn't aware of what was going on? Heck, a less politically connected school could lose their accreditation over such conduct. When my brother attended Carolina, I think there was some truth to the Carolina Way. But UNC is light years away from it now. Don't entertain any delusions. The entire school lost its way, denigrated centuries of a reputation as the crown public institution of the state and the region, and the only way back is to recognize it. Caterwauling about Duke is irrelevant.

Outstanding post in my opinion. Great information and right to the point. Kudos.

ricks

devildeac
12-25-2013, 12:51 PM
According to this article, it appears that PJ is eligible for the (D) League:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/12/23/3482748/uncs-hairston-eligible-for-d-league.html

ricks68
12-25-2013, 12:52 PM
wheat is a good guy, but he doesn't know when to drop the resistance……i mean, how could he? Unc am his homies……….he's got to stick by them no matter how ridiculous the position….

How true.

ricks

Duvall
12-25-2013, 03:43 PM
Second time I've read this comment in this thread, but I don't agree with it. Save for what I infer is a general skepticism re AFAM across institutions (including, presumably, Duke), there's no evidence that AFAM courses were or are "shams." Prof Nyang'Oro's ghost courses were indeed shams, and the fact that grades were changed and signatures were forged in other profs' courses is outrageous.

Nyang'Oro's contemptible behavior unfortunately tainted an entire department, but I hope we can avoid perpetuating the myth that the entire department and its profs and courses were shams. A year or so ago (or 2 - how long has this been going on?), I looked at some of UNC's AFAM course offerings, including syllabi, and they looked academically and intellectually solid to me. Challenging, even, in many cases.

Well, it's been very convenient for UNC and its athletic partners to have the Af-Am scandal portrayed as an academic department suborning a few student-athletes rather than as an athletic department suborning a few professors. After all, when the last time, ESPN paid millions to broadcast the rights to show a history lecture?

So it's probably not an accident that the UNC administration has shown little interest in ever asking the obvious question of whether anyone in the athletic department *asked* for any of the fake classes.

BD80
12-25-2013, 04:01 PM
... I took Religion 55, back when the ink was still wet on the New Testament. ...

I'm so old that when I went to school God was still wrathful and full of vengeance! Forgiveness? Please! I'm talking OLD school!

El_Diablo
12-25-2013, 04:17 PM
There were some rules broken, and the price is being paid. But repeating UNC cheated with every breath just won't make it so.

Isn't that the definition of cheating?

Newton_14
12-25-2013, 06:30 PM
There were some rules broken, and the price is being paid. But repeating UNC cheated with every breath just won't make it so.

Here's an article worth reading (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season) regarding Roy and dealing with the off season and PJ. You guys will love the Roy trademarked 3rd person references.

You are missing/denying the point and likely always will, which is surprising to be honest. It's not "repeating UNC cheated, and it's not actually true". Look, like I have shared, I am 47 years old and have been following ACC Hoops religiously since I was 5 years old. My dad (RIP) was a diehard UNC fan, my brother-in-law is a current diehard UNC fan, but in our conversation at our family Christmas gathering last night, he 100% agreed with me when I stated that UNC is an absolute mess right now, and I went on to say that if Dean Smith was of sound mind right now, none of this stuff would be going on. He said "Amen to that". It would take a very long post to document and spell out all of the many violations that have been exposed in the last 5 years and not all of it is about players breaking rules. The AFAM professor and his sham courses that were set up specifically for athlete's. The Debbie Crowder email proved that beyond reasonable doubt because she was complaining about "regular students becoming aware of the classes" and asking advice on how to keep them out of it since it is for the athelete's. The Dental School's involvement with the Tami Hansbrough fake job scandal, and using UNC money and planes to fly around and watch Tyler play for UNC and Ben for Notre Dame, and the Dental School's involvement with the felon Fats and his Wheels for Heels. The mouthguard thing is nothing to me as I feel they should be able to provide the football team with high quality mouthguards. The only issue there was pimping McDonald to promote private sales for a profit. That, like all the other stuff mentioned above, is not about "kids making mistakes". That's adults blatantly breaking multiple NCAA rules, then lying about them and covering them up.

The kids that broke rules were punished and rightfully so, and for the most part the punishments doled out were fair. Exception being McDonald, who should have gotten 18 games instead of 9.

The bottom line, and what most here are upset about, is how the UNC Adult Administrators, from coaches to AD's, to admins' have either participated in the rule breaking, or those that had to handle it and failed miserably. That's what the uproar is about. It's arrogant, it's elitist, and it's despicable. If those of us who are in an uproar over all this lead you to feel that "beating Duke this year will be so much sweeter", then that's just sad, and shows you have totally missed the boat in all this.

Could a Duke kid, or NC State kid, or Wake Forest kid, accept illegal benefits tomorrow? Absolutely. That could happen anywhere, especially with all the scumbag leeches hanging all over these kids today, and using the heck out of them hoping to cash in when the kid makes it in the Pro's. It can and will happen. The difference will be how these school's handle it when it does happen. I dare say I would be shocked beyond belief if any of those schools handle it in the same manner as UNC has handled it. UNC has deflected, denied, spun, twisted facts, and taken their arrogance to record levels.

I hated UNC while growing up in the glory days of Dean Smith, but the man had character, and I always respected the fact that they abided by the rules, graduated their kids, and did everything possible to maintain a high character program, while dealing properly with kids that fell off the wagon and broke rules. They did not need to create that silly "Carolina Way" crapola, but whatever, they did things the right way.

Anyway, I am pulling a Forrest Gump, this is "all I got to say about that" in response to you.

All that said, I do sincerely wish you and your family a Merry Christmas. I hope ya'll had a good day in sunny Florida. Happy Fishing.

slower
12-25-2013, 09:06 PM
But repeating UNC cheated with every breath just won't make it so.


Just as you presenting your personal versions of things doesn't make them true, either.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-25-2013, 09:13 PM
You are missing/denying the point and likely always will, which is surprising to be honest. It's not "repeating UNC cheated, and it's not actually true". Look, like I have shared, I am 47 years old and have been following ACC Hoops religiously since I was 5 years old. My dad (RIP) was a diehard UNC fan, my brother-in-law is a current diehard UNC fan, but in our conversation at our family Christmas gathering last night, he 100% agreed with me when I stated that UNC is an absolute mess right now, and I went on to say that if Dean Smith was of sound mind right now, none of this stuff would be going on. He said "Amen to that". It would take a very long post to document and spell out all of the many violations that have been exposed in the last 5 years and not all of it is about players breaking rules. The AFAM professor and his sham courses that were set up specifically for athlete's. The Debbie Crowder email proved that beyond reasonable doubt because she was complaining about "regular students becoming aware of the classes" and asking advice on how to keep them out of it since it is for the athelete's. The Dental School's involvement with the Tami Hansbrough fake job scandal, and using UNC money and planes to fly around and watch Tyler play for UNC and Ben for Notre Dame, and the Dental School's involvement with the felon Fats and his Wheels for Heels. The mouthguard thing is nothing to me as I feel they should be able to provide the football team with high quality mouthguards. The only issue there was pimping McDonald to promote private sales for a profit. That, like all the other stuff mentioned above, is not about "kids making mistakes". That's adults blatantly breaking multiple NCAA rules, then lying about them and covering them up.

The kids that broke rules were punished and rightfully so, and for the most part the punishments doled out were fair. Exception being McDonald, who should have gotten 18 games instead of 9.

The bottom line, and what most here are upset about, is how the UNC Adult Administrators, from coaches to AD's, to admins' have either participated in the rule breaking, or those that had to handle it and failed miserably. That's what the uproar is about. It's arrogant, it's elitist, and it's despicable. If those of us who are in an uproar over all this lead you to feel that "beating Duke this year will be so much sweeter", then that's just sad, and shows you have totally missed the boat in all this.

Could a Duke kid, or NC State kid, or Wake Forest kid, accept illegal benefits tomorrow? Absolutely. That could happen anywhere, especially with all the scumbag leeches hanging all over these kids today, and using the heck out of them hoping to cash in when the kid makes it in the Pro's. It can and will happen. The difference will be how these school's handle it when it does happen. I dare say I would be shocked beyond belief if any of those schools handle it in the same manner as UNC has handled it. UNC has deflected, denied, spun, twisted facts, and taken their arrogance to record levels.

I hated UNC while growing up in the glory days of Dean Smith, but the man had character, and I always respected the fact that they abided by the rules, graduated their kids, and did everything possible to maintain a high character program, while dealing properly with kids that fell off the wagon and broke rules. They did not need to create that silly "Carolina Way" crapola, but whatever, they did things the right way.

Anyway, I am pulling a Forrest Gump, this is "all I got to say about that" in response to you.

All that said, I do sincerely wish you and your family a Merry Christmas. I hope ya'll had a good day in sunny Florida. Happy Fishing.

I have no problem agreeing with you that the past few years has been a mess at UNC. Nobody who is a fan that I know wants to see anything like what's happened...and everybody wants to see things righted ASAP and those responsible run out on a rail.

What gets me fired up is the self righteous crowd that wants to take down the people at UNC and the fans that that had nothing to do with any of this, and those who continue to spout lies and half truths, because some sense of rival fandom they feel gives them the right to attack the character of good people caught in the middle.

I've never met Roy Williams, but it's hard to hold my tongue when I see people call Roy a cheat, when I have no doubt he's always tried to do things right.

I'm OK with criticism that he could have done some things better, but my take after watching him for years is I know he's a little, no, strike that, a lot... hokey...a country bumpkin kind of guy...and it's not an act... but he's also genuine in his caring for players and and wears his heart on his sleeve..and he tries to live up to the standards Dean set.

I didn't follow the AFAM stuff, I'm not an alumni, I'm not a football guy...but from what I read, the professor was taking some advantages, and athletes were gravitating to what they thought were easy classes, like athletes do at every school. If it turns out that it was something the AD knew about and it was done only to keep players eligible...then I'm sure appropriate actions will be taken, an they should. I saw where the Professor was indicted, so things are evidently moving along towards finding out what happened, even if the timetable doesn't suit rival fans.

My understanding was Tammi Hansbrough was hired as a fund raiser and was qualified for that job. I understand she was very good at it. My understanding was she brought in lots of money and got involved with the boss, who made poor decisions regarding use of the expense accounts to pay for game trips.
They both got fired, right? End of story. That's not an uncommon story in the corporate world. Go all conspiracy theory on that if you want, but I'm moving on from that.

If there was some booster connection to this Fats guy and evidence he was used to specifically provide cars to athletes, show it to me. All I've seen appears to be a shady felon befriending many athletes from various schools and loaning out cars to be cool...and a UNC player dumb enough to accept them.

I'm a basketball fan, not an apologist for UNC. I like to try and look at things rationally. I expect them to straighten out their house from these mistakes and I have confidence it's happening.

Let's play ball....

OldPhiKap
12-25-2013, 09:40 PM
I have no problem agreeing with you that the past few years has been a mess at UNC. Nobody who is a fan that I know wants to see anything like what's happened...and everybody wants to see things righted ASAP and those responsible run out on a rail.

agreed, although I think there is a part of the fan base who does not see a problem. They see a bunch of wannabe Pack Priders being vindictive, and a putative NCAA. If everyone had your view, there would be a lot less blowback.

What gets me fired up is the self righteous crowd that wants to take down the people at UNC and the fans that that had nothing to do with any of this, and those who continue to spout lies and half truths, because some sense of rival fandom they feel gives them the right to attack the character of good people caught in the middle.

I tend to agree, but that is the nature of the beast. UNC fans do the same.

I've never met Roy Williams, but it's hard to hold my tongue when I see people call Roy a cheat, when I have no doubt he's always tried to do things right.

I go back to what I said before, and would love your view -- Roy seems detached and it feels like he has just turned things over to underlings. I really wonder how much longer he will keep coaching. But I think Roy wants to do it right and wants to be seen as doing it right.

I'm OK with criticism that he could have done some things better, but my take after watching him for years is I know he's a little, no, strike that, a lot... hokey...a country bumpkin kind of guy...and it's not an act... but he's also genuine in his caring for players and and wears his heart on his sleeve..and he tries to live up to the standards Dean set.

agreed.

I didn't follow the AFAM stuff, I'm not an alumni, I'm not a football guy...but from what I read, the professor was taking some advantages, and athletes were gravitating to what they thought were easy classes, like athletes do at every school. If it turns out that it was something the AD knew about and it was done only to keep players eligible...then I'm sure appropriate actions will be taken, an they should. I saw where the Professor was indicted, so things are evidently moving along towards finding out what happened, even if the timetable doesn't suit rival fans.

this is my main disagreement in my opinion. Athletes were steered to these classes. Tutors wrote papers. This was systematic academic fraud. And the administration did everything it could to sweep it under the rug. I have rooted against Carolina for over 30 years, but until a few years ago I respected the hell out of the institution. This is a fraud and a tragedy. Unforgivable. These are the circumstances as I have seen reported, although if the facts are to the contrary someone can correct my misunderstanding.

My understanding was Tammi Hansbrough was hired as a fund raiser and was qualified for that job. I understand she was very good at it. My understanding was she brought in lots of money and got involved with the boss, who made poor decisions regarding use of the expense accounts to pay for game trips.
They both got fired, right? End of story. That's not an uncommon story in the corporate world. Go all conspiracy theory on that if you want, but I'm moving on from that.

a neutral investigation would get to the bottom and resolve the questions surrounding this issue. Won't happen though. So conspiracy theories will continue.

If there was some booster connection to this Fats guy and evidence he was used to specifically provide cars to athletes, show it to me. All I've seen appears to be a shady felon befriending many athletes from various schools and loaning out cars to be cool...and a UNC player dumb enough to accept them.

agreed.

I'm a basketball fan, not an apologist for UNC. I like to try and look at things rationally. I expect them to straighten out their house from these mistakes and I have confidence it's happening.

well, I thought that after the football fiasco. . . . .

Let's play ball....

Response in bold.

Merry Christmas, happy New Year, may the fish be large and plentiful!

Wheat/"/"/"
12-25-2013, 09:52 PM
Roy is a relationship guy, not a disciplinarian like coach K.

Unfortunately he's been let down by players, and probably by those he depends on to handle compliance. He has to accept the consequences as head coach, however.

It wouldn't surprise me if dealing with this stuff hasn't taken a couple of years off Roy's career. But I think he's too stubborn/competitive to quit and say "the heck with it I don't need this aggravation".

ricks68
12-25-2013, 11:09 PM
Roy is a relationship guy, not a disciplinarian like coach K.

Unfortunately he's been let down by players, and probably by those he depends on to handle compliance. He has to accept the consequences as head coach, however.

It wouldn't surprise me if dealing with this stuff hasn't taken a couple of years off Roy's career. But I think he's too stubborn/competitive to quit and say "the heck with it I don't need this aggravation".

Maybe it might be the right thing to do for Roy to leave for a job at an institution with more integrity. I don't think stubbornness or competitiveness has anything to do with it.

ricks

oldnavy
12-26-2013, 05:53 AM
Roy is a relationship guy, not a disciplinarian like coach K.

Unfortunately he's been let down by players, and probably by those he depends on to handle compliance. He has to accept the consequences as head coach, however.

It wouldn't surprise me if dealing with this stuff hasn't taken a couple of years off Roy's career. But I think he's too stubborn/competitive to quit and say "the heck with it I don't need this aggravation".

You imply that you cannot be both.

I would suggest that K is as much a "relationship" guy as anyone if by that you mean he cares for his players and is involved in their lives both on and off the court.

You want to cover up Roy's flaws by painting him as some super kind guy. Just a good Ol boy that only has the best interest of his "kids" at heart. A country bumpkin that gets taken advantage of because he is just so daggum nice and open. Fine, if that is how you want to look at it, but I suggest that Roy just doesn't want to do or possibly can't do the hardest part of being a good leader. He comes off to me as being extremely insecure, defensive, and desperately needing affirmation. And before you bring it up, yes I know that Coach K has flaws as well. The main difference is that Coach K keeps his mouth in check and we get a lot less insight into his psyche than we do of Roy's.

Roy reminds me of the parent that wants to be the child's "pal" and "friend". If that is what you mean by relationship guy, then I would agree. That is just one type of relationship however. And, I suggest that it is not ideal. Kids and in this case players have enough "pals", they need someone who has their best interest at heart. Someone who can be tough when the circumstances call for it. A father figure, not a doltish Uncle (see avatar).

Roy wins a lot of basketball games. Therefore he will coach until he decides to stop or stops winning, bottom line.

What is going to be interesting going forward is the divide between Roy and the AD. It is very clear that Roy was unhappy with Bubba's handling of the PJ affair. It appears that the UNC camp is somewhat split between those who wanted PJ gone as far back as the speeding ticket, and those who wanted PJ back sooner versus later.

Winning will cure a lot of this, but if times get hard and wins are not coming in large numbers as we move into league play, the rift could become a big story especially with PJ sitting right there on the bench for all to see.

Roy may end up cutting his nose off to spite his face....

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-26-2013, 08:32 AM
...

What gets me fired up is the self righteous crowd that wants to take down the people at UNC and the fans that that had nothing to do with any of this, and those who continue to spout lies and half truths, because some sense of rival fandom they feel gives them the right to attack the character of good people caught in the middle...



I'm as big of a Duke fan as you will ever meet and I have been defending Duke's honor specifically against UNC fans since the third grade, but I'm going to acknowledge that if we get into a Duke/UNC whizzing contest over who has the more self-righteous fans... well, let's just say that no one will end up looking good. I think insinuating that nearly any college coach doesn't care about the kids is ludicrous, particularly K and Roy who both have decades of solid relationships with players.

I am going to echo the fans on this board that recognize and appreciate Wheat's POV on this board and offer a "Happy Holidays" in the spirit of the rivalry.

Now, to get back on track, I do agree that leaving PJ on the bench is at the very least odd, and more likely a rather intense distraction for both players and media discussion.

I'm not going to throw any stones about how anything "should" have been handled, but I'd wager that if you gave anyone involved with the fiasco a chance at a do-over they would take it.

Go Duke!

roywhite
12-26-2013, 08:46 AM
Roy is a relationship guy, not a disciplinarian like coach K.

Unfortunately he's been let down by players, and probably by those he depends on to handle compliance. He has to accept the consequences as head coach, however.

It wouldn't surprise me if dealing with this stuff hasn't taken a couple of years off Roy's career. But I think he's too stubborn/competitive to quit and say "the heck with it I don't need this aggravation".

Sounds like a tough Holiday season for Ole Roy

Inside Roy Williams' Most Trying Season (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season)


“I never in my life thought I’d have these kind of things happen,” said Williams, 63. “It’s cast a light on our program that I don’t like, and it’s cast a light on me that I don’t like at all.”


The turmoil often prevents Williams from sleeping more than four hours a night. His friends say he seems distant and preoccupied, and even Williams admits to being irritable and cranky. Williams said the only time he’s happy is when he’s on the practice court, coaching his team.

**note -- I see Wheat posted this same article

OldPhiKap
12-26-2013, 09:14 AM
Now, to get back on track, I do agree that leaving PJ on the bench is at the very least odd, and more likely a rather intense distraction for both players and media discussion.

I'm not going to throw any stones about how anything "should" have been handled, but I'd wager that if you gave anyone involved with the fiasco a chance at a do-over they would take it.

Go Duke!

Agree with all of your post, but I think in Roy's case the last two sentences are somewhat incompatable. MOST peoiple would take a do-over. By keeding PJ on the bench, isn't Roy doubling down?

In any event, I would assume that PJ will be in Europe or the D-league very soon and it will be a moot point. But if there is a fight behind the scenes between Roy and Bubba, Roy's gonna win that one unless he decides to hit the links at the beach after the season and call it a career.

Duvall
12-26-2013, 10:00 AM
But if there is a fight behind the scenes between Roy and Bubba, Roy's gonna win that one unless he decides to hit the links at the beach after the season and call it a career.

Seen a lot of speculation about tension between Williams and Cunningham, but I'm not sure what the source of the tension would be. By all indications UNC bent over backwards to keep Hairston until it was obvious that he had burned any chance of playing college basketball again. What does Williams have to complain about?

BD80
12-26-2013, 10:08 AM
Agree with all of your post, but I think in Roy's case the last two sentences are somewhat incompatable. MOST peoiple would take a do-over. By keeping PJ on the bench, isn't Roy doubling down?

In any event, I would assume that PJ will be in Europe or the D-league very soon and it will be a moot point. But if there is a fight behind the scenes between Roy and Bubba, Roy's gonna win that one unless he decides to hit the links at the beach after the season and call it a career.

With ol' roy advising, and considering roy's Kansas history, it will be a moo point.

In light of multiple transgressions, the deflections, the denials, the laments ... I think the description is apt: a moo point.

Newton_14
12-26-2013, 10:25 AM
Seen a lot of speculation about tension between Williams and Cunningham, but I'm not sure what the source of the tension would be. By all indications UNC bent over backwards to keep Hairston until it was obvious that he had burned any chance of playing college basketball again. What does Williams have to complain about?

I have read in a couple of places that Bubba wanted to dismiss PJ from the team back in the summer when all the bad things were going on and Roy was adamant about not doing that. Then in the end Bubba made the decision to not file for reinstatement and Roy was very upset about that. Roy felt they should file for reinstatement and fight to get PJ back on the team this year just like McDonald. So if those articles were correct, that seems to be the rift between Roy and Bubba. (One source was Greg Barnes articles on IC. Not packpride or other forums)

Also, after reading the Bleacher Report article, it appears to me that when Roy made the comment awhile back about "just wish someone would tell me what the heck is going on about reinstatement", he was referring to Bubba and the UNC administration, rather than the NCAA like most (including me) assumed. Sounds like they froze Roy out from the discussions and final decision making on to file or not to file. I would speculate that is the reason Roy is keeping PJ in practices and having him sit on the bench during the games. Roy appears to be making a statement there.

Bizarre situation. Even though I have been very vocal about my disdain for the mess over there, I have commented more than once (and with sincerity) that I do worry about Roy's health with all this going on. It appears those concerns are valid.

OldPhiKap
12-26-2013, 10:55 AM
I have commented more than once (and with sincerity) that I do worry about Roy's health with all this going on. It appears those concerns are valid.

I share your concerns, Newton_14. This may be as good a spot as any to add:

Over the course of the last few months there have been some unkind references to Roy's vertigo, etc. As many will recall, for years IC was riddled with posters claiming K faked a back injury to get out of a tough year, or laughed when he had an episode of lightheadedness a few years ago. Those were deporable, and I would hope we can avoid such comments in relation to Roy.

There is plenty of material to work with as it is -- no need to go there.

$.02


(Not trying to sidetrack the thread, but this has bothered me and there does not appear to be much good from debating an independent new thread on it).

Des Esseintes
12-26-2013, 11:12 AM
You want to cover up Roy's flaws by painting him as some super kind guy. Just a good Ol boy that only has the best interest of his "kids" at heart. A country bumpkin that gets taken advantage of because he is just so daggum nice and open. Fine, if that is how you want to look at it, but I suggest that Roy just doesn't want to do or possibly can't do the hardest part of being a good leader. He comes off to me as being extremely insecure, defensive, and desperately needing affirmation. And before you bring it up, yes I know that Coach K has flaws as well. The main difference is that Coach K keeps his mouth in check and we get a lot less insight into his psyche than we do of Roy's.

Roy reminds me of the parent that wants to be the child's "pal" and "friend". If that is what you mean by relationship guy, then I would agree. That is just one type of relationship however. And, I suggest that it is not ideal. Kids and in this case players have enough "pals", they need someone who has their best interest at heart. Someone who can be tough when the circumstances call for it. A father figure, not a doltish Uncle (see avatar).



I'm not sure this is entirely fair. For one thing, I think rival message boards with have a quibble or twenty with the notion that K "keeps his mouth in check." He has said plenty of things over the years that could irritate an opposing fan base. Nothing wrong with that, it goes with being a fierce competitor and tremendously successful, but we shouldn't pretend it hasn't happened.

Second, I see little evidence that Roy wants to be his players' friend or pal. I've seen coaches who do that, and it looks nothing like the arrangement at UNC. Pete Carroll is much closer to that model. And Pete Carroll, by the way, is probably among the top 10 coaches currently working in American sports. Maybe his style is "not ideal," but it sure is successful and fun to watch. If you want a bad example of this model, maybe Frank Martin. I remember my shock back when Michael Beasley and Jacob Pullen were at K-State that the players would refer to "Frank" in interviews, as though he were a peer or something. Roy resembles neither of these styles. I feel confident that he has his players' best interests at heart and that his method for helping kids achieve is an effective one.

BlueDevilBrowns
12-26-2013, 01:38 PM
Roy Williams is an excellent coach, it would be foolish to argue otherwise. He's been to 7 FF's, won countless amounts of regular season "championships", and won 2 NT's. HOF-worthy for sure. In his era(1990-2015), he's the 2nd best coach in CBB, IMO.

But what I find lacking in him is his seemingly inability to accept personal responsibility when the going get's tough, whether on-the-court(see UNC 09/10) or off of it(see UNC 13/14). He explains why bad things happen "TO HIM" not to the team or the school, and certainly not "BECAUSE OF HIM" or his actions. It's the classic victim mentality.

Leadership = Responsibility. Part of responsibility is admitting when you're wrong. It doesn't make you weak, it makes you human, and it allows those that follow you to respect you that much more, because they see that real courage is admitting when you've done something you shouldn't and then take steps to correct it to ensure it doesn't happen again, not deflecting it to other people because you're afraid of how it makes you look.

This lack of responsibility doesn't make him criminal, evil, or even bad. But it does make him appear weak. And, to me, it set's him apart from the Dean's, K's, Wooden's, Lombardi's, and Paul Brown's of the world.

Roy's a great coach, just not a great leader.

chaosmage
12-26-2013, 01:39 PM
I'm not sure this is entirely fair. For one thing, I think rival message boards with have a quibble or twenty with the notion that K "keeps his mouth in check." He has said plenty of things over the years that could irritate an opposing fan base. Nothing wrong with that, it goes with being a fierce competitor and tremendously successful, but we shouldn't pretend it hasn't happened.

Second, I see little evidence that Roy wants to be his players' friend or pal. I've seen coaches who do that, and it looks nothing like the arrangement at UNC. Pete Carroll is much closer to that model. And Pete Carroll, by the way, is probably among the top 10 coaches currently working in American sports. Maybe his style is "not ideal," but it sure is successful and fun to watch. If you want a bad example of this model, maybe Frank Martin. I remember my shock back when Michael Beasley and Jacob Pullen were at K-State that the players would refer to "Frank" in interviews, as though he were a peer or something. Roy resembles neither of these styles. I feel confident that he has his players' best interests at heart and that his method for helping kids achieve is an effective one.

The only thing I can remember hearing that would possibly explain this was that Frank Martin didn't play ball in HS/college... he got into the game much later as a coach, and perhaps that gives him a different perspective. As a teacher, none of my students use anything less than just my last name (no Mr.), and I'm ok with that. Per his wikipedia article, he used to be a bouncer, and after getting shot at, he decided it was time to move on. If he's ok with no "Coach" in front of his name, I have no issue with that. I think we, as Duke fans, have a different view because even Jordan probably doesn't call Coach Smith "Dean."

Wheat/"/"/"
12-26-2013, 01:59 PM
You imply that you cannot be both.

I would suggest that K is as much a "relationship" guy as anyone if by that you mean he cares for his players and is involved in their lives both on and off the court.

You want to cover up Roy's flaws by painting him as some super kind guy. Just a good Ol boy that only has the best interest of his "kids" at heart. A country bumpkin that gets taken advantage of because he is just so daggum nice and open. Fine, if that is how you want to look at it, but I suggest that Roy just doesn't want to do or possibly can't do the hardest part of being a good leader. He comes off to me as being extremely insecure, defensive, and desperately needing affirmation. And before you bring it up, yes I know that Coach K has flaws as well. The main difference is that Coach K keeps his mouth in check and we get a lot less insight into his psyche than we do of Roy's.

Roy reminds me of the parent that wants to be the child's "pal" and "friend". If that is what you mean by relationship guy, then I would agree. That is just one type of relationship however. And, I suggest that it is not ideal. Kids and in this case players have enough "pals", they need someone who has their best interest at heart. Someone who can be tough when the circumstances call for it. A father figure, not a doltish Uncle (see avatar).

Roy wins a lot of basketball games. Therefore he will coach until he decides to stop or stops winning, bottom line.

What is going to be interesting going forward is the divide between Roy and the AD. It is very clear that Roy was unhappy with Bubba's handling of the PJ affair. It appears that the UNC camp is somewhat split between those who wanted PJ gone as far back as the speeding ticket, and those who wanted PJ back sooner versus later.

Winning will cure a lot of this, but if times get hard and wins are not coming in large numbers as we move into league play, the rift could become a big story especially with PJ sitting right there on the bench for all to see.

Roy may end up cutting his nose off to spite his face....

Yo, I didn't imply anything, I just made a general statement.

Of course coach K has good relationships with his players. And of course Roy maintains discipline on his teams.

Roy does fine as a leader. A man doesn't become head coach at a major university and earn a spot in the Hall Of Fame without leadership skills.

Class of '94
12-26-2013, 02:27 PM
I have read in a couple of places that Bubba wanted to dismiss PJ from the team back in the summer when all the bad things were going on and Roy was adamant about not doing that. Then in the end Bubba made the decision to not file for reinstatement and Roy was very upset about that. Roy felt they should file for reinstatement and fight to get PJ back on the team this year just like McDonald. So if those articles were correct, that seems to be the rift between Roy and Bubba. (One source was Greg Barnes articles on IC. Not packpride or other forums)

Also, after reading the Bleacher Report article, it appears to me that when Roy made the comment awhile back about "just wish someone would tell me what the heck is going on about reinstatement", he was referring to Bubba and the UNC administration, rather than the NCAA like most (including me) assumed. Sounds like they froze Roy out from the discussions and final decision making on to file or not to file. I would speculate that is the reason Roy is keeping PJ in practices and having him sit on the bench during the games. Roy appears to be making a statement there.

Bizarre situation. Even though I have been very vocal about my disdain for the mess over there, I have commented more than once (and with sincerity) that I do worry about Roy's health with all this going on. It appears those concerns are valid.

if there is a rift between Coach Williams and the AD, having PJ remain a visible part of the team by attending practices and sitting on the bench makes sense now. It would appear that the coach is doing this to spite the AD and UNC administration. If this is true, Coach Williams once again is sending the wrong message to the PJ and the other players as well as the outside world. It would be best for everyone involved if PJ and UNC went their separate ways in order for both parties to have closure and move-on. As many posters have noted, by having PJ remain a visible part of the team, it continues to create more distractions and take the focus away from the team imo. I have no problem with PJ staying at UNC as a student and if Roy feels responsible PJ, he can continue to stay in contact with PJ privately. And if it is true that Williams wanted the university to fight for PJ's reinstatement, then it would be hard for me to view him as a true leader and disciplinarian. You have to draw the line at some point (even if the kids are still in school) and say enough is enough. I wonder if PJ would've been kicked off the team had Coach Williams suspended him for the entire season back in the summer. It's hard for me to understand how Coach Williams could determine that an intense off-season conditioning program, being suspended from the team in the summer, being left off the front page of the school's media guide, and not playing in 9 games would be a significant punnishment for PJ's actions and deter him from making bad decisions in the future.

oldnavy
12-26-2013, 04:13 PM
Yo, I didn't imply anything, I just made a general statement.

Of course coach K has good relationships with his players. And of course Roy maintains discipline on his teams.

Roy does fine as a leader. A man doesn't become head coach at a major university and earn a spot in the Hall Of Fame without leadership skills.

I think we must have very different ideas about what a leader is. Winning basketball games is what got Roy and every other coach into the HOF, not their leadership skills.

And I can think of about a dozen examples of people in sports, politics, clergy, business, military, etc. who have obtained high levels of success without being good leaders.

sagegrouse
12-26-2013, 06:34 PM
I have read in a couple of places that Bubba wanted to dismiss PJ from the team back in the summer when all the bad things were going on and Roy was adamant about not doing that. Then in the end Bubba made the decision to not file for reinstatement and Roy was very upset about that. Roy felt they should file for reinstatement and fight to get PJ back on the team this year just like McDonald. So if those articles were correct, that seems to be the rift between Roy and Bubba. (One source was Greg Barnes articles on IC. Not packpride or other forums)

Also, after reading the Bleacher Report article, it appears to me that when Roy made the comment awhile back about "just wish someone would tell me what the heck is going on about reinstatement", he was referring to Bubba and the UNC administration, rather than the NCAA like most (including me) assumed. Sounds like they froze Roy out from the discussions and final decision making on to file or not to file. I would speculate that is the reason Roy is keeping PJ in practices and having him sit on the bench during the games. Roy appears to be making a statement there.

Bizarre situation. Even though I have been very vocal about my disdain for the mess over there, I have commented more than once (and with sincerity) that I do worry about Roy's health with all this going on. It appears those concerns are valid.

Not to take sides with some UNC guy named "Bubba," but would it surprise anyone if the UNC hierarchy thought Roy was being irrational, if not downright erratic, and that by taking total control of the process was protecting Roy from himself and NCAA sanctions that might keep him from coaching.

And of course, this is one of many reasons why "Compliance" is under the AD not the individual coaches.

sage

Duvall
12-27-2013, 12:35 AM
I have no problem agreeing with you that the past few years has been a mess at UNC. Nobody who is a fan that I know wants to see anything like what's happened...and everybody wants to see things righted ASAP and those responsible run out on a rail.

What gets me fired up is the self righteous crowd that wants to take down the people at UNC and the fans that that had nothing to do with any of this, and those who continue to spout lies and half truths, because some sense of rival fandom they feel gives them the right to attack the character of good people caught in the middle.

I've never met Roy Williams, but it's hard to hold my tongue when I see people call Roy a cheat, when I have no doubt he's always tried to do things right.

No doubt? None at all? We have seen too many honorable men revealed to be frauds in college sports for that to be a reasonable position. We give coaches too prominent a role at our universities as it is - to have that role without careful and constant observation would be foolish.


I'm OK with criticism that he could have done some things better, but my take after watching him for years is I know he's a little, no, strike that, a lot... hokey...a country bumpkin kind of guy...and it's not an act... but he's also genuine in his caring for players and and wears his heart on his sleeve..and he tries to live up to the standards Dean set.

How do you know? You don't know Roy Williams, you know a character you see on television. I wouldn't presume to say that I know Mike Krzyzewski, or anyone else I know mostly through observation at a distance, and it's irresponsible to pretend otherwise.


I didn't follow the AFAM stuff, I'm not an alumni, I'm not a football guy...but from what I read, the professor was taking some advantages, and athletes were gravitating to what they thought were easy classes, like athletes do at every school. If it turns out that it was something the AD knew about and it was done only to keep players eligible...then I'm sure appropriate actions will be taken, an they should. I saw where the Professor was indicted, so things are evidently moving along towards finding out what happened, even if the timetable doesn't suit rival fans.

How do you know, if you aren't following the story? How can you be sure that appropriate action will be taken, if you haven't been following the story?

If there is any indication - any indication at all - that UNC has or is planning to review the athletic department's knowledge of the Af-Am scandal, please point it out. Because every indication is that UNC is happy to let the professors, the department, an entire discipline take the fall for actions that benefits the coaches and athletic programs.

I hope that isn't true. I would rather not believe that UNC is capable of doing that. But UNC has thus far proven unwilling to do anything that would show that they aren't doing just that.


My understanding was Tammi Hansbrough was hired as a fund raiser and was qualified for that job. I understand she was very good at it. My understanding was she brought in lots of money and got involved with the boss, who made poor decisions regarding use of the expense accounts to pay for game trips.

But that's not really what happened. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/09/12/2334880/uncs-kupec-worked-to-establish.html) Her boyfriend, a senior UNC official, cajoled the school into creating a second job for her in his office, from which they vigorously abused their expense accounts.

If you aren't following these stories closely enough to know the details, how can you discuss them?


I'm a basketball fan, not an apologist for UNC. I like to try and look at things rationally. I expect them to straighten out their house from these mistakes and I have confidence it's happening.

Why? What news has there been from UNC in the last 3.5 years that would generate any confidence that UNC is willing or able to straighten out its affairs?

Wheat/"/"/"
12-27-2013, 06:29 AM
No doubt? None at all? We have seen too many honorable men revealed to be frauds in college sports for that to be a reasonable position. We give coaches too prominent a role at our universities as it is - to have that role without careful and constant observation would be foolish.



How do you know? You don't know Roy Williams, you know a character you see on television. I wouldn't presume to say that I know Mike Krzyzewski, or anyone else I know mostly through observation at a distance, and it's irresponsible to pretend otherwise.



How do you know, if you aren't following the story? How can you be sure that appropriate action will be taken, if you haven't been following the story?

If there is any indication - any indication at all - that UNC has or is planning to review the athletic department's knowledge of the Af-Am scandal, please point it out. Because every indication is that UNC is happy to let the professors, the department, an entire discipline take the fall for actions that benefits the coaches and athletic programs.

I hope that isn't true. I would rather not believe that UNC is capable of doing that. But UNC has thus far proven unwilling to do anything that would show that they aren't doing just that.



But that's not really what happened. (http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/09/12/2334880/uncs-kupec-worked-to-establish.html) Her boyfriend, a senior UNC official, cajoled the school into creating a second job for her in his office, from which they vigorously abused their expense accounts.

If you aren't following these stories closely enough to know the details, how can you discuss them?



Why? What news has there been from UNC in the last 3.5 years that would generate any confidence that UNC is willing or able to straighten out its affairs?


This is a message board, not a court.

What you see from me are my opinions, which I'll readily admit are sometimes based on the incomplete information we all get, but also on my super power level of keen observation that I understand is hard to comprehend by a mere Duke fan.

It's weird, I can see through dung, but not concrete, go figure?

Wheat/"/"/"
12-27-2013, 07:01 AM
:)

Realized I forgot to add that...

BD80
12-27-2013, 08:32 AM
This is a message board, not a court. ...

Actually, we prefer the title "inquisition:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

Although I fear we are losing one of our prime weapons: surprise. It seems that the favored sport here has become threshing, particularly during the long breaks between games.

Personally, I prefer my "wheat" whole grained, so I'll just leave it at: thanks for adding your perspective. I find it illuminating in the same way I prefer to receive world news from international broadcasts rather than the US broadcasts.

MChambers
12-27-2013, 08:39 AM
Actually, we prefer the title "inquisition:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

Although I fear we are losing one of our prime weapons: surprise. It seems that the favored sport here has become threshing, particularly during the long breaks between games.

Personally, I prefer my "wheat" whole grained, so I'll just leave it at: thanks for adding your perspective. I find it illuminating in the same way I prefer to receive world news from international broadcasts rather than the US broadcasts.
You mean Wheat = Al Jazeera? Never thought of it that way, but I will say I value Wheat's posts and his willingness to be double and triple teamed.

Duke79UNLV77
12-27-2013, 09:13 AM
@ EricPrisbell Will Graves address given to police same as Melinda Woodard near Greensboro, owner of Range Rover in LesMCD video?


7:06 AM - 23 Dec 13
Eric Prisbell ‏ @ EricPrisbell 20m
@ ACCRecruitingXP yup, I was told that last week. Fascinating stuff.

oldnavy
12-27-2013, 09:30 AM
This is a message board, not a court.

What you see from me are my opinions, which I'll readily admit are sometimes based on the incomplete information we all get, but also on my super power level of keen observation that I understand is hard to comprehend by a mere Duke fan.

It's weird, I can see through dung, but not concrete, go figure?

But can you see dung? That is the question.

I think that you will admit that you see more of what you want to see, not unlike myself or other Duke fan,s or people in general.

Nobody that I have ever met wants to admit that their baby is ugly, and totally understand that.

OldPhiKap
12-27-2013, 09:41 AM
@ EricPrisbell Will Graves address given to police same as Melinda Woodard near Greensboro, owner of Range Rover in LesMCD video?


7:06 AM - 23 Dec 13
Eric Prisbell ‏ @ EricPrisbell 20m
@ ACCRecruitingXP yup, I was told that last week. Fascinating stuff.

Not really sure what this means. Who is Melinda Woodard?

(thanks for posting it though -- Eric said there was another shoe to drop, I just don't know what the shoe is)

JasonEvans
12-27-2013, 10:43 AM
Eric said there was another shoe to drop, I just don't know what the shoe is

Your last line made me think of this: "The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me."

I'm sure Roy wonders if this mess will ever be over. But, was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

-Jason "ok, that was a real stretch" Evans

brevity
12-27-2013, 10:45 AM
This is a message board, not a court.

What? You mean that all these cross-examiners won't make you break down and cry on the stand?

Honestly, I don't understand what the Duke fans on this thread are trying to accomplish.

Wheat isn't going to abandon UNC fandom, or make pronouncements like "I'm done with this program until Roy leaves or retires."

Wheat is also unlikely to leave DBR due to a lack of patience. Well-versed in fishing, one of the most boring pastimes on our planet, Wheat has nothing but patience.

I credit Wheat, and not just for providing an outsider perspective. (To extend BD80's news analogy*, limiting the board to just Duke fans makes DBR a single news channel that promotes one agenda, mostly by cannibalizing and regurgitating itself.) I also credit Wheat for accepting and embracing the changing circumstances at UNC. It's hard to show unconditional love when the conditions stay the same.

*I thought I'd leave the bread analogy alone.

plimnko
12-27-2013, 11:33 AM
http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20131227/COLUMNISTS12/312270014/Jarrett-Tarnished-Tar-Heels-play-on?nclick_check=1

Wheat/"/"/"
12-27-2013, 11:43 AM
Wheat is also unlikely to leave DBR due to a lack of patience. Well-versed in fishing, one of the most boring pastimes on our planet, Wheat has nothing but patience.


I'm actually not known for my patience in the fishing world, my friends dubbed me "Flitterfly" years ago because I'm rarely in one place long, unless they are biting.

Boring? You must have never caught a tarpon.

3765

OldPhiKap
12-27-2013, 11:48 AM
http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20131227/COLUMNISTS12/312270014/Jarrett-Tarnished-Tar-Heels-play-on?nclick_check=1

Wow, brutal take-down. Especially for an Asheville paper.

Hard for me to argue with any of it, really.

sagegrouse
12-27-2013, 11:54 AM
http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20131227/COLUMNISTS12/312270014/Jarrett-Tarnished-Tar-Heels-play-on?nclick_check=1

Holy sacred cow!

Money quotes -- the million-dollar variety:


UNLV under Jerry Tarkanian?

Nope, it’s coach Roy Williams and North Carolina, the tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith.

........
Not too many years ago, UNC was an institution to be proud of, where the desire for excellence in academics and athletics didn’t seem to be competing interests.

You know, like Duke does.

But the Tar Heels have lost their way, with layer after layer revealed of an athletic program and academic leadership that looked the other way while football and basketball players took fake classes for more than a decade, where athletes’ parking lots boasted more luxury cars than a Hollywood premiere.

Lessee.... "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith." Anyone need a new signature quote?

And twisting the knife, "You know, like Duke does."

Duvall
12-27-2013, 12:14 PM
What? You mean that all these cross-examiners won't make you break down and cry on the stand?

Honestly, I don't understand what the Duke fans on this thread are trying to accomplish.

Why does Rice play Texas?

It's often hard to tell what any thread on a message board is trying to accomplish. Basically we're dealing with different ways of looking at college sports - the Carolina Way, in which a fan takes pride (often too much pride) in the idea that his school wins while doing things the right way, and the Calipari Way, in which a fan just enjoys watching the athletes and the games and doesn't care about how the sausage is made. Either way is fine, but you can't combine the self-satisfaction of the Carolina Way with the cheerful indifference to rulebreaking of the Calipari Way.

Also, don't underestimate the impact of a stretch in which Duke plays two games in 25 days.

CharlestonDevil
12-27-2013, 12:57 PM
http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20131227/COLUMNISTS12/312270014/Jarrett-Tarnished-Tar-Heels-play-on?nclick_check=1

"If the Tar Heels learn how to make free throws, they will no doubt have another successful season and maybe even make a run at a national championship.

And on the Road to the Final Four, they already know where they can get a good deal on a Porsche to take them there."

And boom goes the dynamite....

oldnavy
12-27-2013, 01:37 PM
Holy sacred cow!

Money quotes -- the million-dollar variety:



Lessee.... "[T]he tarnished Tar Heels that bear little resemblance to the revered program built by Dean Smith." Anyone need a new signature quote?

And twisting the knife, "You know, like Duke does."

Hmmm, sounds a lot like some posts on this thread. I believe I and others had mentioned that it wouldn't be very difficult to see what kind of cars PJ and LM (or others) were driving around CH... if you had an interest in such things...

I guess someone else is throwing the old bs flag on the "we didn't know" explanation coming out of CH.

OldPhiKap
12-27-2013, 01:41 PM
Not really sure what this means. Who is Melinda Woodard?

(thanks for posting it though -- Eric said there was another shoe to drop, I just don't know what the shoe is)

Bump?

OldPhiKap
12-27-2013, 01:42 PM
Your last line made me think of this: "The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me."

I'm sure Roy wonders if this mess will ever be over. But, was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

-Jason "ok, that was a real stretch" Evans

Jaason, will you be our big toe? Sgt. Hulka may not always be there for us.

richardjackson199
12-27-2013, 01:51 PM
Hmmm, sounds a lot like some posts on this thread. I believe I and others had mentioned that it wouldn't be very difficult to see what kind of cars PJ and LM (or others) were driving around CH... if you had an interest in such things...

I guess someone else is throwing the old bs flag on the "we didn't know" explanation coming out of CH.

Great article - reading it sounded so familiar like the writer had read our thread.

howardlander
12-27-2013, 01:53 PM
Outstanding post in my opinion. Great information and right to the point. Kudos.

ricks


http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20131227/COLUMNISTS12/312270014/Jarrett-Tarnished-Tar-Heels-play-on?nclick_check=1

Ouch ...

77devil
12-27-2013, 02:09 PM
Not really sure what this means. Who is Melinda Woodard?

(thanks for posting it though -- Eric said there was another shoe to drop, I just don't know what the shoe is)


Bump?

There is an old thread from mid October in PP that documents that she is a teacher at Ben L. Smith high school in Greensboro, and the owner of a car that was ticketed in CH. It goes on to allege it's a car LM was seen driving around campus. Looks pretty thin without more evidence.

gumbomoop
12-27-2013, 02:25 PM
If there is any indication - any indication at all - that UNC has or is planning to review the athletic department's knowledge of the Af-Am scandal, please point it out. Because every indication is that UNC is happy to let the professors, the department, an entire discipline take the fall for actions that benefits the coaches and athletic programs.

My comment here isn't directed at Wheat's view, but I do agree with Duvall on the athletic scandal. Very reluctantly, I'm willing to label it an "athletic/academic" scandal, but even that is imprecise.

From the beginning, Roy mislabeled it an "academic" scandal. Although internally, and unobtrusively, some authority within UNC did implicitly admit to a "problem" in the athlete-counselor bailiwick [they moved it away from the athletic dept], that move hasn't garnered sufficient attention, given its obvious implications. Said implication is not, "We don't want our student-athletes being enticed into ghost courses"; rather, it's "Some of our athlete-counselors have been steering players into Nyang'oro's fake courses."

The blithe acceptance of the oft-repeated misdiagnosis as "academic scandal" has tarnished a perfectly reputable program and group of professors. Indeed, even Keith Jarrett [Asheville Times article], otherwise spot on and bravo, maddeningly refers to teachers [plural] giving undeserved A's; afaik, the rogue or an administrative co-conspirator forged signatures and changed grades. Several AFAM profs were undermined; presumably they were intimidated or more likely simply ignorant of the scam to which their names were unwitting parties.

The PJ catastrophe is bad publicity, and Roy is deservedly taking his lumps. But as Duvall pointedly notes, there's no "indication at all" that on the much - much - deeper issue of the athlete eligibility scam, UNC has done anything other than what Jarrett calls dodging and weaving. We may never know: (1) what, if anything, Roy and others knew about the eligibility scam, and when; (2) how many athlete counselors steered athletes into ghost courses, and during which years, precisely; (3) what role, if any, and by either commission or omission, athlete counselor supervisor Jan Boxill played. What exactly did she do as supervisor? What did she know, or make sure not to know, and when? Dan Kane says she's not talking.

Or maybe [hallucinating here] that phrase, "academic scandal," has all along been a sly reference to ethics-expert Professor Boxill's ascension to Chair of the Faculty, where, thanks to the gods of whimsy and irony, she oversaw a faculty report on the scam.

Coach Roy Williams has not acknowledged the role his program has played in undermining the academic/intellectual integrity of a once, and possibly once again, great university. He's agonized publicly about PJ and Graves, but as those cases have thrown him for a loop, maybe the deeper quagmire into which his and the football program have consigned the University is beyond his comprehension.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
12-27-2013, 02:26 PM
Wow, brutal take-down. Especially for an Asheville paper.

Hard for me to argue with any of it, really.

Asheville generally fawns all over UNC and all things Roy, as he is a hometown hero. I'm really surprised to see that article and that tone.

Go Duke!

richardjackson199
12-27-2013, 02:37 PM
There were some rules broken, and the price is being paid. But repeating UNC cheated with every breath just won't make it so.

Here's an article worth reading (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season) regarding Roy and dealing with the off season and PJ. You guys will love the Roy trademarked 3rd person references.

This article about Roy on the other hand portrays Roy as pathetic. I don't know Roy, but I agree with Wheat in that he appears to genuinely care about his players. Roy seems to mean well. But everything I've seen shows that in trying to help his players, Roy is just clueless. And he seems to be too stubborn to see things any other way.

After reading that article, would you want your son star basketball player to go play for Roy Williams? A guy who is under such mental and emotional duress, that it's physically worn him down? A guy whose only enjoyment in a day is a brief exercise or escaping from reality on the basketball court? A guy who thinks "renting" his $600,000 home to a guy he kicked off the team for drugs is going to teach him responsibility? A guy who is so upset because PJ deserves yet another chance and to play on this year's team? Does that teach PJ responsibility? Does cutting L-Mac's suspension in half teach him responsibility for taking impermissable benefits?

So Roy is irritable, cranky, and depressed. Roy says "I can’t stand it. It’s given me feelings that I don’t like having. Look, P.J. was wrong. I know that. Will was wrong. But in today’s world, with all the sensationalism...things just get blown up. You’ve got people out there that have no information putting stuff out there for others to read.” Sounds like Roy needs a psychiatrist and a therapist, but would that help? Roy is so egosyntonic that his coping defense is denial that he is responsible for any of the mess. It's hard for therapy to treat someone when the problem is always "everybody else." There appear to be some cluster B personality traits like narcissm (referring to himself in the 3rd person).

That article shows he doesn't get it. Roy, no one accused you of smoking a regular cigarette. That's not what this is about. Your players are receiving improper benefits, driving porsches, getting free hotel rooms and cell phones. Your 4-year star player's mom gets a fake job created for her which abuses state university funds to pay for her travel to games. And after all the improper benefits to the football team and systemic academic fraud, you think it's a good idea to say the player made some mistakes, reduce the player's suspension, give them another chance, and get them back on your team asap? And you're shocked that the media is implying wrongdoing by UNC's athletic program? Woe is Roy Williams.

Roy Williams is an amazing basketball coach. He genuinely cares about his players. But in my opinion his cluelessness is part of the problem. The entire athletic department's approach for years shows that others have also been in denial. I'm not blaming UNC fans who aren't to blame. I'm not suggesting there is any evidence that Roy Williams needs to be fired. I am saying that Roy and UNC should be handling this much better.

I would not want my kid playing for a coach like that, regardless of how much he genuinely cared for helping my son.

UrinalCake
12-27-2013, 02:39 PM
There is an old thread from mid October in PP that documents that she is a teacher at Ben L. Smith high school in Greensboro, and the owner of a car that was ticketed in CH. It goes on to allege it's a car LM was seen driving around campus. Looks pretty thin without more evidence.

The evidence goes further than LM being seen in the car... he himself actually posted a video of some parking tickets he had received on campus, and in the video you can clearly read the license plates of the cars involved, one of which matches the land rover owned by Melinda Woodard. So it's pretty clear that he was driving her car.

Then there is a separate YouTube video in which another player (maybe MacAdoo?) is seen driving another land rover that looks similar, but is not definitively the same car.

The fact that Graves is using Woodard's address suggests that something is going on above and beyond what we already know about.

bob blue devil
12-27-2013, 02:47 PM
Not really sure what this means. Who is Melinda Woodard?)

Not much concrete that I've seen.

Supposedly she's a nc school teacher and the owner of a land rover McDonald was driving around/getting parking tickets with. Then there is this new connection with Will Graves giving her address as his. On the even more circumstantial side, her siblings apparently have criminal records with drugs and she is rumored to share circles with Rodney blackstock (agent in the Ben mclemore situation, and suspected to have had contact with Leslie).

Yeah, at the very least I expect u*nc to get to the bottom of these strange connections to avoid the appearance of impropriety... Haha.

BigWayne
12-27-2013, 02:51 PM
Not really sure what this means. Who is Melinda Woodard?

(thanks for posting it though -- Eric said there was another shoe to drop, I just don't know what the shoe is)

Prisbell deleted that tweet, presumably because he was in error, though it was based on some "in the neighborhood" info.

I went and looked this up the other day to sort it out. Original info from PP http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=178&f=2515&t=12160409

Leslie McDonald put up a youtube video for some class he was taking as part of his exalted UNC education.
The video involved him complaining about how tough it is to find parking at UNC and how he ends up getting parking tickets
as a result. One of the parking tickets he shows is for a 2005 LandRover with the unique license plate NDUETYM.
This vehicle is registered to Melinda Woodard and is shown in the thread as being parked at her residence in Whitsett, NC.
PP unearthed that she also owns a condo at 504 Mystic Drive in Greensboro. She was placed as being a former Dudley HS
teacher and currently at Smith HS. I believe PJ and Will Graves attended Dudley.

Will Graves gave an address of 507 Mystic Dr Apt. B as his permanent address when he was arrested at Roy's house.
http://p2c.chpd.us/viewreport.aspx?id=635237563172829014

Google maps view of Mystic Dr. shows this block to have a series of large condo buildings with 504 and 507 being across the street
from each other.

So Prisbell saw the the address and recognized it from the PP thread I suppose and shot his tweet a little too quickly.
All that being said, McDonald obviously used this LandRover in addition to the cars from Fats that UNC admitted to the NCAA.
I wonder if leaving this one off the list will come back to bite them in the end.

richardjackson199
12-27-2013, 02:52 PM
Not much concrete that I've seen.

Supposedly she's a nc school teacher and the owner of a land rover McDonald was driving around/getting parking tickets with. Then there is this new connection with Will Graves giving her address as his. On the even more circumstantial side, her siblings apparently have criminal records with drugs and she is rumored to share circles with Rodney blackstock (agent in the Ben mclemore situation, and suspected to have had contact with Leslie).

Yeah, at the very least I expect u*nc to get to the bottom of these strange connections to avoid the appearance of impropriety... Haha.

Sounds like another project for Pack Pride.

ricks68
12-27-2013, 02:53 PM
What? You mean that all these cross-examiners won't make you break down and cry on the stand?

Honestly, I don't understand what the Duke fans on this thread are trying to accomplish.

Wheat isn't going to abandon UNC fandom, or make pronouncements like "I'm done with this program until Roy leaves or retires."

Wheat is also unlikely to leave DBR due to a lack of patience. Well-versed in fishing, one of the most boring pastimes on our planet, Wheat has nothing but patience.

I credit Wheat, and not just for providing an outsider perspective. (To extend BD80's news analogy*, limiting the board to just Duke fans makes DBR a single news channel that promotes one agenda, mostly by cannibalizing and regurgitating itself.) I also credit Wheat for accepting and embracing the changing circumstances at UNC. It's hard to show unconditional love when the conditions stay the same.

*I thought I'd leave the bread analogy alone.

I, too have to give Wheat a lot of credit for adding his perspective around here. I also think (not to claim to be able to read his mind) he realizes that we are a different kind of board than other fan sites (i.e: UNC, Maryland, etc.) So, I think that as long as the discourse remains civil, rational (although tainted by unabashed bias) discussion should continue to be tolerated.

I believe that the more Wheat and the rest of us go back and forth, the more we should be able to understand the reasoning behind the other's point of view. (Certainly not an easy task when dealing with Heels, Terps or Wildcats, of course.) Wheat has offered us the rare opportunity to access the mindset of a devoted UNC fan for years, now, and I would like that to continue.

I do take issue with the "fishing" comment, however. "Real" fishermen, like myself, are never bored while fishing. We know how and where to catch fish. Lots of action the vast majority of the time. Other fishermen (myself about to be included in that category due to my move to the mountains) enjoy using "goin' fishin'" as an excuse to get out of the house and into the woods and streams to enjoy nature at its finest. Watching a soccer ("football" to everywhere else in the world) game--------now that's boredom, and the only pastime possibly more boring than watching a baseball game. Nope, I think I am wrong. Baseball is definitely more boring to watch.:eek:

ricks

bob blue devil
12-27-2013, 02:55 PM
There is an old thread from mid October in PP that documents that she is a teacher at Ben L. Smith high school in Greensboro, and the owner of a car that was ticketed in CH. It goes on to allege it's a car LM was seen driving around campus. Looks pretty thin without more evidence.

LM made a home video and posted it on YouTube showing the parking ticket, which had the vehicle info on it, which was used to identify the owner (ms woodward). I'd argue that is a solid connection, but the why is the thin part.

UrinalCake
12-27-2013, 03:17 PM
Ok, so the address that Graves gave the police was not identical to the one owned by Woodard, but it is across the street. Does that makes things any less suspicious? How many houses/condos in this block are inhabited by people connected to UNC? And from what I can remember from the original PP thread, these are relatively nice houses - not mansions, but beyond what a teacher would normally afford (or a video coordinator, for that matter).

77devil
12-27-2013, 03:35 PM
LM made a home video and posted it on YouTube showing the parking ticket, which had the vehicle info on it, which was used to identify the owner (ms woodward). I'd argue that is a solid connection, but the why is the thin part.

It's old news. There's been no connection established to the university. Doubt anything more will come of it, but we'll see.

bob blue devil
12-27-2013, 03:46 PM
It's old news. There's been no connection established to the university. Doubt anything more will come of it, but we'll see.

I agree it is old news, but I do not understand your point. Do you mean this issue has been well vetted? Tell us more.

Wheat/"/"/"
12-27-2013, 03:51 PM
Ok, so the address that Graves gave the police was not identical to the one owned by Woodard, but it is across the street. Does that makes things any less suspicious? How many houses/condos in this block are inhabited by people connected to UNC? And from what I can remember from the original PP thread, these are relatively nice houses - not mansions, but beyond what a teacher would normally afford (or a video coordinator, for that matter).

Geez...I guess a kid in college can't innocently borrow a car if he plays for UNC? I've seen almost every other conspiracy theory but the one where he has friends that were kind enough to loan him a car.

I would just about guarantee you that there is a recent Duke player who's borrowed a car from a fellow student...gone to the movies, whatever. If we find out that car was bought by dad, an alumni, can I scream benefit? Should I?

It's all so stupid, unless it's proven that UNC was somehow behind a coordinated effort or knew about it and supported it.

Does anybody really think any of this got these players that most of you don't think aren't any good anyways to come to UNC ...or to stick around longer?

Whatever the rules are they should be followed. That said, they are ridiculous. Separate sports from academics and play ball, amateurism has been dead for years.

Graves...Suspicious?
Maybe it's as simple as that address was a friend where Will Graves wanted his mail delivered while he was out of the country? Heaven forbid!

sagegrouse
12-27-2013, 04:19 PM
PackPride is collectively aghast that the Asheville Citizen-Times would publish ANYTHING negative about UNC or hometown boy Roy Williams.

We'll take this hit any day:


mstroud90 wrote: The only problem I have with this article is the "like Duke does" comment. I would be willing to bet that there is some skeletons in Durham also.
RESPONSE: true, but I'm glad he put it in there just so it pisses off unc fans a little more


And a little philosphy and history:


doubt this was an act of individual conscience getting to the writer.

They sent out Art Chansky to do the same thing to Butch Davis a couple years ago, to seal off the scandal and keep it in the football program. In effect, it sent the signal that Butch was no longer protected and was fair game. Chansky took some flack short term from the Walmart contingent, but that was short lived.

The Asheville paper is "inner circle", they don't do stuff like that on their own without sanction. This is Roy's hometown paper, Roy Williams sleeps with the fishes.

BigWayne
12-27-2013, 04:24 PM
Ok, so the address that Graves gave the police was not identical to the one owned by Woodard, but it is across the street. Does that makes things any less suspicious? How many houses/condos in this block are inhabited by people connected to UNC? And from what I can remember from the original PP thread, these are relatively nice houses - not mansions, but beyond what a teacher would normally afford (or a video coordinator, for that matter).
Mystic Dr complex appears to be cheap condos. Tax values are under $50K. I'm guessing the teacher lived here before she was able to afford the place in Whitsett, which also is not that expensive, with recent sales on her street around $80-90K. I do believe Woodard, PJ, and Graves know each other from Dudley HS and are more or less from the same neighborhood at some point in time, but there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself.

Also, to Wheat's point, if all McDonald did was drive the teachers car, it's probably not a big deal. The issue comes from it being one of many cars he has driven and the fact that evidence of these cars has been posted all over social media, which UNC was cited for not adequately monitoring as part of the football sanctions letter in 2011. Because of that letter, whether UNC knew about these cars is less relevant. They were put on notice in 2011 that they should know what the players are doing on social media, so they should have known about the cars.

bob blue devil
12-27-2013, 04:37 PM
Geez...I guess a kid in college can't innocently borrow a car if he plays for UNC? I've seen almost every other conspiracy theory but the one where he has friends that were kind enough to loan him a car.

I would just about guarantee you that there is a recent Duke player who's borrowed a car from a fellow student...gone to the movies, whatever. If we find out that car was bought by dad, an alumni, can I scream benefit? Should I?

It's all so stupid, unless it's proven that UNC was somehow behind a coordinated effort or knew about it and supported it.

Does anybody really think any of this got these players that most of you don't think aren't any good anyways to come to UNC ...or to stick around longer?

Whatever the rules are they should be followed. That said, they are ridiculous. Separate sports from academics and play ball, amateurism has been dead for years.

Graves...Suspicious?
Maybe it's as simple as that address was a friend where Will Graves wanted his mail delivered while he was out of the country? Heaven forbid!

You almost had me fisherman, almost. Well done.

Furniture
12-27-2013, 04:51 PM
I have many thoughts on this and here are a couple.

-I don't think it's inappropriate for PJ to be on the bench with the UNC team from now on. I think Roy should recognize that even if he thinks that PJ is hard done by. Having said all that I think it's absolutely possible that Roy have a very strong connection with these kids and feel partly responsible for their bad decisions. He therefore does want to support them as much as he can. I mean let's face it many of the kids from Dudley HS in GSO have no chance in life as soon as they are born. As somebody else said it could be easy to fall in with the wrong crowd during summertime go down a bad path and make a bad decision. This summer PJ did that and maybe Roy feels that he should not abandon him.

77devil
12-27-2013, 04:56 PM
I agree it is old news, but I do not understand your point. Do you mean this issue has been well vetted? Tell us more.


Geez...I guess a kid in college can't innocently borrow a car if he plays for UNC? I've seen almost every other conspiracy theory but the one where he has friends that were kind enough to loan him a car.

I would just about guarantee you that there is a recent Duke player who's borrowed a car from a fellow student...gone to the movies, whatever. If we find out that car was bought by dad, an alumni, can I scream benefit? Should I?

It's all so stupid, unless it's proven that UNC was somehow behind a coordinated effort or knew about it and supported it.

Does anybody really think any of this got these players that most of you don't think aren't any good anyways to come to UNC ...or to stick around longer?

Whatever the rules are they should be followed. That said, they are ridiculous. Separate sports from academics and play ball, amateurism has been dead for years.

Graves...Suspicious?
Maybe it's as simple as that address was a friend where Will Graves wanted his mail delivered while he was out of the country? Heaven forbid!

While I am loath to agree with Wheat, (Unlike some on the board, I find much of his commentary about Duke to be bait and trolling.) I'm afraid he stumbled into the correct perspective on this one. I suspect there are more UNC violations to be discovered. This isn't one of them.

oldnavy
12-27-2013, 05:13 PM
Geez...I guess a kid in college can't innocently borrow a car if he plays for UNC? I've seen almost every other conspiracy theory but the one where he has friends that were kind enough to loan him a car.

I would just about guarantee you that there is a recent Duke player who's borrowed a car from a fellow student...gone to the movies, whatever. If we find out that car was bought by dad, an alumni, can I scream benefit? Should I?

It's all so stupid, unless it's proven that UNC was somehow behind a coordinated effort or knew about it and supported it.

Does anybody really think any of this got these players that most of you don't think aren't any good anyways to come to UNC ...or to stick around longer?

Whatever the rules are they should be followed. That said, they are ridiculous. Separate sports from academics and play ball, amateurism has been dead for years.

Graves...Suspicious?
Maybe it's as simple as that address was a friend where Will Graves wanted his mail delivered while he was out of the country? Heaven forbid!

The true "Carolina Way" mission statement.

bob blue devil
12-27-2013, 05:30 PM
While I am loath to agree with Wheat, (Unlike some on the board, I find much of his commentary about Duke to be bait and trolling.) I'm afraid he stumbled into the correct perspective on this one. I suspect there are more UNC violations to be discovered. This isn't one of them.

Why do you say this (not the wheat part, I'm on board with that)? I agree that it could be nothing, but why would you assume at? A lower middle class person loaning her luxury SUV to an irresponsible college. And not just for a trip to the grocery store, but to Chapel Hill. And, of course, the only time it happened Leslie got a ticket and made a video about it (or was this a regular thing where she was willing to part with her luxury vehicle). do you really think leslie gets that treatment if he's just another kid she knew? If not, then its a violation (one that i dont care a ton about, but a violation nonetheless). of course this is not just another athlete, but one who has a history of borrowing luxury vehicles from ... party planners. And this doesn't touch on the rumored affiliations of said vehicle loaner. While that could easily be a dead end, u*nc should dig deep with transparency, as there is the appearance of some ugly stuff. By not doing lends credibility to the worst scenarios.

ricks68
12-27-2013, 05:57 PM
Asheville generally fawns all over UNC and all things Roy, as he is a hometown hero. I'm really surprised to see that article and that tone.

Go Duke!

I haven't experienced that so far in Asheville. In fact, I have been shocked at so much Duke gear I have spotted around town. In talking to a lot of people around here, many have told me that they have been won over by Coach K's integrity.

By the way, I liked the Ninja Porter you suggested during the game the other night. We have been drinking more of that. We were able to score some Cold Mountain over at The Chestnut a few days ago, however, and it is remarkable. It's so difficult to find since the whole batch was bought up in just a single day. I guess we will just have to go back for dinner there for more.:D

ricks

Zebraman32
12-27-2013, 06:17 PM
There were some rules broken, and the price is being paid. But repeating UNC cheated with every breath just won't make it so.

Here's an article worth reading (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1900606-inside-roy-williams-most-trying-season) regarding Roy and dealing with the off season and PJ. You guys will love the Roy trademarked 3rd person references.

I generally lurk and read, rather than post. And I have to say, I generally enjoy reading Wheat's posts. He's a sports lover and adds a useful perspective to the discussion.

That said, I could not fail to respond to the "rules were broken" post.

Well, it's certainly true that rules were broken. But UNLV at Chapel Hill hasn't come close to paying the price yet. There are rule violations of which the public is unaware. Not just in PJ's case. And that's the way the folks at UNLV at Chapel Hill want it. UNC has been cheating, Wheat. For a good while now. And denying it doesn't make it so either.

There is no greater prostitution of an academic institution that to run "no show" classes. For athletes. For anyone. Period. I mean, seriously, all schools have some "crip courses," but "no show" classes? Get serious. That 2009 National Championship banner was procured by kids enrolled in "no show" classes. Have you taken a look at the academic majors of the kids who scratched minutes in the Final Four that year? No fewer than seven (7) AFAM majors. You should know, the entirety of the University's response to the "football"/ academic scandal was positioned to avoid reckoning with that fact.

The interesting thing to me is that for 15 years or more UNC was cheating in football and beating Duke by a few points. Wow ! I mean, if you're gonna cheat, figure out how to win a championship for goodness sakes. Duke's actually won an ACC championship in football since i showed in 1973 as a freshman.

The folks at UNC needed to come clean, but there was a cost with doing so. And, it's a cost those in charge of the institution were not prepared to pay. PJ's banishment is, at least, some positive motion toward communicating that there are to be some standards at the Flagship going forward. So, let's give UNC credit for that. It's an important institution. We need it to actually be a decent academic institution. They need to be a decent institution rather than to simply seem to be one in the minds of their graduates and administration. For the state, for the students and for the rivalry.

Oh, and with respect to Roy, spare me the stuff about how much he cares about his kids. I'm confident he does. But, so did Tark. The difference is that Tark was not pretentious about it. He did not say it about himself. He let others draw that conclusion. Roy's a country boy, for sure. But, the problem our brothers at UNC have is one of pretense. Poop stinks. It's a fact. Duke's does. (See, e.g., the Brodhead administration's handling of the lacrosse matter.) So does that of other schools when wrong is done. There are definitely those associated with UNC who seem to think that their poop does not stink. And for those of us who recognize the stench, the pretense is a bit much.

timmy c
12-27-2013, 07:39 PM
...

There is no greater prostitution of an academic institution that to run "no show" classes. For athletes. For anyone. Period. I mean, seriously, all schools have some "crip courses," but "no show" classes? Get serious. That 2009 National Championship banner was procured by kids enrolled in "no show" classes. Have you taken a look at the academic majors of the kids who scratched minutes in the Final Four that year? No fewer than seven (7) AFAM majors. You should know, the entirety of the University's response to the "football"/ academic scandal was positioned to avoid reckoning with that fact...

Zebra, thanks for posting.

The suggestion that 7 basketball players majored in AFAM in 08-09 suprised me. I took a look at the player bios and did not notice any. http://www.goheels.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=667867&SPID=12965&SITE=UNC&DB_OEM_ID=3350&Q_SEASON=2008
Am I missing something?

Furniture
12-27-2013, 08:08 PM
So when ole Roy was asked before tonight's game if PJ would be on the bench he responded "frankly I do not know". Indeed he is not there....

dukebluelemur
12-27-2013, 08:57 PM
Zebra, thanks for posting.

The suggestion that 7 basketball players majored in AFAM in 08-09 suprised me. I took a look at the player bios and did not notice any. http://www.goheels.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=667867&SPID=12965&SITE=UNC&DB_OEM_ID=3350&Q_SEASON=2008
Am I missing something?

2009 was the year the entire basketball team mysteriously stepped away from AFAM. The bios there have been updated to reflect that fact. I don't know where you could find information to show the state before that sudden, across the board, switch. I don't find it implausible that some of those Communications majors were AFAM before the basketball program suddenly, and quietly, swore off the AFAM department, but the number 7 does seem a bit high based on this article (http://thebiglead.com/2012/07/26/north-carolina-academic-scandal-why-did-basketball-players-stop-majoring-in-african-and-afro-american-studies-in-2009/). He may be confusing it with 2005, which did have 7.

UrinalCake
12-27-2013, 11:07 PM
Geez...I guess a kid in college can't innocently borrow a car if he plays for UNC? I've seen almost every other conspiracy theory but the one where he has friends that were kind enough to loan him a car.

Actually he can't... CJ Leslie got suspended for three games for doing just that, while his own car was in the repair shop. I agree that the rule is pretty asinine when it fails to take things into context, but it's the rule nonetheless.

In isolation, a player driving someone else's car wouldn't be a big deal. But UNC now has a documented history of players receiving rental cars, so when you factor that in I don't think it's unreasonable to raise suspicion when we hear of McDonald getting a parking ticket in someone else's car.

As for PJ being on the bench, I guess my issue is that it gives me the impression he's still part of the team, and therefore practicing with them, just not playing in games. I have no idea whether he's actually practicing or not, but I would think that he wouldn't be allowed to. I could be wrong...

sagegrouse
12-27-2013, 11:26 PM
As for PJ being on the bench, I guess my issue is that it gives me the impression he's still part of the team, and therefore practicing with them, just not playing in games. I have no idea whether he's actually practicing or not, but I would think that he wouldn't be allowed to. I could be wrong...

Although I am skeptical of the motives of P.J.'s family's statement, it did appear to burn bridges with UNC. I would guess that P.J. is through with Carolina and will take his act somewhere else. If true, whether he is welcomed by UNC to hang around becomes a moot question.

oldnavy
12-28-2013, 06:07 AM
So when ole Roy was asked before tonight's game if PJ would be on the bench he responded "frankly I do not know". Indeed he is not there....

This is a very odd answer to me. Roy doesn't know what PJ is doing? Roy is pretty invested in PJ at this point. It would be reasonable to expect him to know what is going on with PJ.

Roy is an enigma to me. I sometimes just SMH and wonder if he really knows what is going on around him.

Allowing a kid who has been "kicked off" the team to come and go without "knowing" from YOUR team bench during nationally televised games seems to me to send exactly the type of message that you would NOT want to send during all of this fallout, and that is "I really don't know what is going on here".

It may just be a small thing, but to "not know" the answer to a question you KNOW people are going to ask is weak. Roy really doesn't do himself any favors at all. How difficult would it have been to just say, PJ isn't back in town and will not be on the bench tonight? A simple phone call to PJ to ask, "are you going to be in town for the game?", or to tell PJ to take another day off and don't come to the game tonight, see you next week.... or better yet, if you have not confirmed that PJ is going to be at the game, then make a decision and say "no PJ is not going to be on the bench tonight" and let the staff know that if PJ just shows up that he is to sit somewhere else. It really is a very simple thing and easy to control - 30 seconds tops!

Roy created this issue with PJ on the bench, Roy should know that it is going to be a topic of interest with the media and fans,therefore Roy should be controlling this issue. Instead, Roy really doesn't know what is going on, and this if you are a UNC fan, cannot be comforting especially when your ship is in a storm and folks are looking to the head coach to take charge and steer the ship. To say "I don't know" gives the appearance that PJ is making the decisions and Roy isn't. Maybe this is true.

This was not some out of the blue trick question. Roy really needs to know the answer to who is going to be sitting on HIS bench during any given game, especially when he has made PJ sitting on the bench a defiant and 'in your face' statement for him being in charge of the basketball program.

Is it just me or does Roy just seem foolish at times? Maybe I am too hard on him. :confused:

Indoor66
12-28-2013, 06:16 AM
This is a very odd answer to me. Roy doesn't know what PJ is doing? Roy is pretty invested in PJ at this point. It would be reasonable to expect him to know what is going on with PJ.

Roy is an enigma to me. I sometimes just SMH and wonder if he really knows what is going on around him.

Allowing a kid who has been "kicked off" the team to come and go without "knowing" from YOUR team bench during nationally televised games seems to me to send exactly the type of message that you would NOT want to send during all of this fallout, and that is "I really don't know what is going on here".

It may just be a small thing, but to "not know" the answer to a question you KNOW people are going to ask is weak. Roy really doesn't do himself any favors at all. How difficult would it have been to just say, PJ isn't back in town and will not be on the bench tonight? A simple phone call to PJ to ask, "are you going to be in town for the game?", or to tell PJ to take another day off and don't come to the game tonight, see you next week.... or better yet, if you have not confirmed that PJ is going to be at the game, then make a decision and say "no PJ is not going to be on the bench tonight" and let the staff know that if PJ just shows up that he is to sit somewhere else. It really is a very simple thing and easy to control - 30 seconds tops!

Roy created this issue with PJ on the bench, Roy should know that it is going to be a topic of interest with the media and fans,therefore Roy should be controlling this issue. Instead, Roy really doesn't know what is going on, and this if you are a UNC fan, cannot be comforting especially when your ship is in a storm and folks are looking to the head coach to take charge and steer the ship. To say "I don't know" gives the appearance that PJ is making the decisions and Roy isn't. Maybe this is true.

This was not some out of the blue trick question. Roy really needs to know the answer to who is going to be sitting on HIS bench during any given game, especially when he has made PJ sitting on the bench a defiant and 'in your face' statement for him being in charge of the basketball program.

Is it just me or does Roy just seem foolish at times? Maybe I am too hard on him. :confused:

At his executive and salary level, he has to know. No, you are not being too hard on him.