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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 80, UCLA 63 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
12-19-2013, 08:20 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

hurleyfor3
12-19-2013, 08:22 PM
Second half was a good ol' Seventh Avenue Freeze Out.

Potato Head
12-19-2013, 08:24 PM
Great game for Rasheed's confidence, and the team's confidence as well to get a big win. UCLA beat themselves in that second half, but it was nice to see our guys execute against a top team.

miramar
12-19-2013, 08:26 PM
Good Parker 23 points

Bad Parker 2 points

Troublemaker
12-19-2013, 08:28 PM
Great second half for Duke! Held UCLA to 26 points, attacked the zone much better.

We may have found two "new" starters.

vick
12-19-2013, 08:28 PM
For all the crying this year about "free throw contests," this game moved at a nice pace (about 1:50 of real time). It turns out it is possible to play basketball without fouling every possession!

GGLC
12-19-2013, 08:28 PM
Great job by our guys. Really happy to see Rasheed and Amile out there at crunch time.

gocanes0506
12-19-2013, 08:29 PM
It was good to see the team attack the zone alittle more in the 2nd half. It definitely lead to better chances and getting to the free throw line more. The 2nd 10 minutes in the 1st half were tough to watch.

Im glad Sul has been doing better in practice and getting into the game today. That 3 with less than 2 left was the dagger.

Marshall Plumlee is hard to watch. He brings energy but his skill level/coordination really lacks for the collegiate level. Hopefully he can put it together sometime soon.

davekay1971
12-19-2013, 08:30 PM
Held the number 3 scoring team in the nation to 26 second half points. Yes, UCLA left a bunch on the table, but Duke played some better defense, as well. Oh, and nice to see Sulaimon put the dagger in them. And Amile had a nice game. And more coherent thoughts may come later. Very good 2nd half, very good win.

subzero02
12-19-2013, 08:31 PM
Without looking at the numbers, I thought our defensive rebounding was great in the second half... Amile and Parker had the inside position consistently and secured the ball when they got their hands on it

CLW
12-19-2013, 08:32 PM
Much better defense the 2nd half with a game total .900 defensive efficiency. My guess the 2nd half was WAY better than the 1st. Hopefully, the team can build off the 2nd half defensive effort and become a solid team on that end of the court.

Looks like Sheed may be shaking out of his funk as well and Jefferson played well. I think the unit with the highest ceiling is Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Sheed, Cook with Dawkins, Thornton and Josh off the bench.

dukelifer
12-19-2013, 08:32 PM
Great to see Sheed get confidence. Amile played well but HAS to hit free throws. Overall a strong second half.

Troublemaker
12-19-2013, 08:34 PM
Oh, and nice to see Sulaimon put the dagger in them.

Yes! And seeing our coaches and players on the bench go nuts for Sheed. Goosebumps. This is family.

kAzE
12-19-2013, 08:34 PM
Tony Parker and Tarik Black averaging a combined 9 points and 9 rebounds a game. Safe to say we dodged a couple of bullets there . . .

Great to see Sulaimon back in the mix.

brevity
12-19-2013, 08:36 PM
I've covering Tony Parker's postgame press conference. I'll report just as soon as it's over.

Matches
12-19-2013, 08:36 PM
Best game Amile has played at Duke. He was terrific tonight.

Great step in the right direction for the team as a whole.

CLW
12-19-2013, 08:36 PM
Tony Parker and Tarik Black averaging a combined 9 points and 9 rebounds a game. We sure missed out!

they certainly haven't panned out for KU and UCLA but MP3 ain't exactly putting up the stats either. It would still be nice to have someone with some beef to put out on the floor.

Dukehky
12-19-2013, 08:37 PM
That Alford kid looked like kind of a punk in the first half, glad he got shut down in the second stanza.

Good, solid win. Defense looked better but ucla also missed a ton of shots they made in the first half which were contested anyways.

David Wear? Seriously?

Saratoga2
12-19-2013, 08:41 PM
The most effective group in my mind was one consisting of:

Quinn
Rasheed
Rodney
Jabari
Amile

They played exceptionally well together. Amile does need to work on his foul shot, but otherwise the guys looked good and stayed aggressive. Amile also picked up guarding Anderson later in the game. He tried but that kid is really good and hard to stop.

For those thinking we needed more opportunities for Marshall, we may have been dissuaded by what we saw of him tonight. To me he seemed to lack aggression tonight and didn't provide anything much positive. Maybe Marshall is not going to contribute much this year, although he should have additional chances against some of the weaker teams.

Josh, Tyler and Andre provided good support and I think that Matt was in but didn't recognize him out there. Did Semi get in?

DukeHLM'13
12-19-2013, 08:42 PM
David Wear? Seriously?


He doubled his total for made 3's on the season.

But as with much of UCLA, he was pretty much shut out in the second half. Pretty much have to like everything that we did in the second, figured out how to attack the zone and got a lot better on the rotations on D and stopped giving up the wide open long jumpers that we were in the first half.

kAzE
12-19-2013, 08:42 PM
they certainly haven't panned out for KU and UCLA but MP3 ain't exactly putting up the stats either. It would still be nice to have someone with some beef to put out on the floor.

Eh . . . I'll take a skinny Amile over both of them. Would he qualify for this if he ate a quarter pounder prior to each game?

dukebballcamper90-91
12-19-2013, 08:43 PM
The most effective group in my mind was one consisting of:

Quinn
Rasheed
Rodney
Jabari
Amile

They played exceptionally well together. Amile does need to work on his foul shot, but otherwise the guys looked good and stayed aggressive. Amile also picked up guarding Anderson later in the game. He tried but that kid is really good and hard to stop.

For those thinking we needed more opportunities for Marshall, we may have been dissuaded by what we saw of him tonight. To me he seemed to lack aggression tonight and didn't provide anything much positive. Maybe Marshall is not going to contribute much this year, although he should have additional chances against some of the weaker teams.

Josh, Tyler and Andre provided good support and I think that Matt was in but didn't recognize him out there. Did Semi get in?


Took the words right out of my mouth.

hurleyfor3
12-19-2013, 08:44 PM
David Wear? Seriously?

He missed his career high (17) by one. Almost a Bootsy.

mgtr
12-19-2013, 08:47 PM
I think that, particularly in the second half, everyone who played had a role to play, and did a good job of playing that role. Thornton and Hairston get some bad knocks on these boards, including from me, but tonight they proved their worth. They are both tough hombres, and sometime that is what we need. The last ten minutes of the game were a joy.

miramar
12-19-2013, 08:48 PM
I've covering Tony Parker's postgame press conference. I'll report just as soon as it's over.

The presser could take longer than the 12 days of Christmas.

cwarner62
12-19-2013, 08:49 PM
Great second half and I think a really big win!

First, the bad: obviously we were too quick to settle for 3s against the zone, especially in the 1st half. And in the 1st half, we were lazy sometimes getting back on D, closing out, or rotating.

The good: It was awesome to see Rasheed playing aggressively again and I was so happy to see him put the dagger in UCLA! You could see how happy all his teammates were for him too. Quinn's defense in the second half was amazing - 7 steals, that's crazy! We really did a great job rebounding on both ends. We stepped up the D in the second half and did a much better job contesting shots. Amile had a great game and even Josh did too! If both of them and Rasheed can turn in more performances like that, we'll be really tough to beat. Loved seeing how excited the 3 seniors were on the bench after Amile's dunk at the end of the game. I think even though none of them is a star player, their senior leadership will be a huge factor. And obviously there's not much more to be said about Jabari - he like all freshmen still has a lot of room for improvement defensively but Kevin Durant is the only other player I can think of to have such a polished and complete offensive game as a true freshman.

Go Duke!

Dukeblue91
12-19-2013, 08:50 PM
The second half was just beautiful Duke basketball for the most part and I'm very happy with and for the team.
Well done young men.

BD80
12-19-2013, 08:51 PM
He doubled his total for made 3's on the season. ...

I think Wear just doubled his college career scoring total.

bbosbbos
12-19-2013, 08:59 PM
I thought Wears twin had graduated. I am wrong. One of them played like a SG while another one disappeared in this game. How is that possible two top 10 forwards perform like this after N years' training. Blame UNC or UCLA?


I think Wear just doubled his college career scoring total.

jaytoc
12-19-2013, 08:59 PM
Parker seemed to want more than a perfunctory handshake from K in the post-game handshake line. K
blew him off pretty hard.

Newton_14
12-19-2013, 09:02 PM
Really really great win and the guys needed this one badly for their mental psychy. UCLA is a really good team that will be ranked in the Top 12-15 before all is said and done. UCLA threw a heavy punch in that first half and knocked our guys back and had them playing tentative, while the Bruins were cocky and feeling it (did the cocky Alford kid head bob irritate anyone other than me?). I thought Duke hit some big shots late in the first half to get back to even and a fresh start for the 2nd half. That was big.

2nd half, Duke threw the opening punch, then followed with a counter-punch and got it to 61-50, with a great chance to throw the knockout punch. That was my only real disappointment about this game. We had 5 straight possessions with the score at 61-50, and UCLA was reeling, and we took 5 "bad three's", which was puzzling because we had been taking "good three's" the entire half. I thought we sensed the kill but got impatient there. Fortunately, we played solid enough the rest of the way to not get bit by that lapse.

I thought this was also our second best defensive effort in a big game, and perhaps overall. (Still rank the Michigan game as our best defensive game). There were less mistakes, communication was better, help defense was better. In fairness, from the 15min mark of the first half to about the 5min of the first half, the defense slipped, mainly defending transition, and defending the 3. Pick and pop outside was hurting us, especially with D Wear pulling a Bobby Frasor in Cameron North. 2nd half defense was much better.

Welcome back Amile and Rasheed! Amile had the bigger game between the two, but Rasheed looked much better in limited minutes than he has most of the year. Both 3's were big, and he was very active on defense. He looked like the old Rasheed. I have not checked the stats yet, but Amile was strong on the boards, and had at least 3 blocks by my count. The best part was if my memory is correct, Amile only had 2 fouls, and spent a fair amount of time on Kyle.

The 3 amigo's, Jabari, Hood, and Quinn led the way but tonight they had a very good supporting cast. Josh played well and had good moments, Tyler did not shoot well, but was good on defense, Andre hit the NBA 3, but did have a bad turnover, and a couple of defensive mistakes, but loved seeing him become Rasheed's biggest fan. Andre has such a different outlook and obviously has become a "great teammate". Awesome to see.

Just a great team win against a worthy opponent. A sign of growth, and a nice step in the right direction if they are to become the team they want to be.

Can't way to see them back in Cameron on the 28th.

Go Duke!

Go To Hell Carolina!

ChrisP
12-19-2013, 09:03 PM
I actually didn't think our first half offensive strategy or execution were that bad at all - UCLA was giving us MULTIPLE open looks at 3's and we have a lot of guys who can shoot it really well so I didn't have a problem with most of our shots. Unfortunately, we just didn't make many of them. But I gotta believe that won't happen often and if we had hit like we're capable of hitting from outside, we could have had a 6-9 point lead at the half.

Anyways...SUPER happy for Rasheed and truly ecstatic that he hit that dagger 3 near the end - it was a bigtime shot for sure! Another poster said it seemed like Amile's best game at Duke and I'd concur with that assessment. He looked really confident (dare I say cocky at times) and I loved seeing him rip a rebound away from Tony Parker. Quinn had a really nice game as well, but I guess he just wouldn't be Quinn Cook without throwing in a smattering of boneheaded plays here and there :)

Overall, really pleased with the win and I hope we can build on that 2nd half performance and that this team can reach it's full potential. I think there is a LOT of room for us to grow and gel and get better and I just hope we can make it happen in the coming weeks! Go Duke!!!!

ChillinDuke
12-19-2013, 09:05 PM
I'll save deeper thoughts for tomorrow. But for now, the main thought that keeps ringing through my head (and keeps a smile on my face) is that Rasheed Sulaimon grew up tonight.

He didn't try to do too much. He wasn't passive and sit around scared. He played a role.

A very important role.

Rasheed... Hats off.

- Chillin.

azzefkram
12-19-2013, 09:06 PM
Great second half and a great win. Really positive minutes from Amile and Sheed. Quinn got a little careless with the ball but 7 steals more than made up for it. Dre didn't have his shot but still managed to grab 3 boards in his limited minutes.

Duke79UNLV77
12-19-2013, 09:13 PM
Jefferson played a huge role in turning the game around. On defense he guarded Anderson and blocked 2 shots. On offense his ability to flash to the middle, catch the ball, and then make the correct read got us out of our funk against the zone, and he was opportunistic and efficient in scoring. His 18 rebounds over the past 2 games are a huge improvement over the 2 he had in the first 2 games of the year. Other than free throws, he did everything asked of him.

It's great to see him and Rasheed respond to being challenged. 6 rebounds and 4 assists for Rasheed.

CameronDuke
12-19-2013, 09:13 PM
Amile was a beast tonight. Good rebounding effort from him and the team as a whole. He also is crafty under the basket and knows how to shoot reverse lay ups while using the rim to his advantage to block defenders trying to block his shot. This mitigates his lack of bulk and weight so he doesn't have to take contact when he goes up for his lay ups.

Sheed shot just 3-9 but most of his shots were in rhythm and a couple barely missed. It just felt like he was much more in the flow of things tonight and he defended well. We need him! The last 3-pointer he hit was huge and it was great seeing the bench react to the basket he made.

I felt the guys were a bit 3-pointer happy and rushed the possessions a lot in the first half but as soon as we started flashing a big to the free throw line and getting it into him, this collapsed the defense which allowed the ball to be passed diagonally for open jumpers. If we can start figuring out the zone more like we did in the second half this will force more teams to play us man to man. With Parker, Hood, and Cook usually giving us 50-60 points a game, and Sheed and Amile proving they're capable scorers, we will be problems for teams that try to match up man to man against us.

Holding UCLA to 26 points in the second half is huge for our defense. Hopefully we can learn what we did well and apply it in practice in the long lay off until our next game vs Eastern Michigan.

Jabari is the total package. He is always in control of his emotions and body on the court. He has grounded confidence and is articulate. He's a beautiful person and player.

Rodney is the silent assassin because sometimes in a quiet manner, he racks up 14 and 5 like he did tonight.

Quinn is the most improved player we have. 7 steals proves just how good of a defender he can be. We have the pieces to be really good in March.

I loved Hairston continuing to make an extra effort to tip rebounds out for extra possessions when he couldn't fully grasp the ball with both hands in traffic. Keep it up!

Let's Go Duke!

flyingdutchdevil
12-19-2013, 09:16 PM
Really really great win and the guys needed this one badly for their mental psychy. UCLA is a really good team that will be ranked in the Top 12-15 before all is said and done. UCLA threw a heavy punch in that first half and knocked our guys back and had them playing tentative, while the Bruins were cocky and feeling it (did the cocky Alford kid head bob irritate anyone other than me?). I thought Duke hit some big shots late in the first half to get back to even and a fresh start for the 2nd half. That was big.

2nd half, Duke threw the opening punch, then followed with a counter-punch and got it to 61-50, with a great chance to throw the knockout punch. That was my only real disappointment about this game. We had 5 straight possessions with the score at 61-50, and UCLA was reeling, and we took 5 "bad three's", which was puzzling because we had been taking "good three's" the entire half. I thought we sensed the kill but got impatient there. Fortunately, we played solid enough the rest of the way to not get bit by that lapse.

I thought this was also our second best defensive effort in a big game, and perhaps overall. (Still rank the Michigan game as our best defensive game). There were less mistakes, communication was better, help defense was better. In fairness, from the 15min mark of the first half to about the 5min of the first half, the defense slipped, mainly defending transition, and defending the 3. Pick and pop outside was hurting us, especially with D Wear pulling a Bobby Frasor in Cameron North. 2nd half defense was much better.

Welcome back Amile and Rasheed! Amile had the bigger game between the two, but Rasheed looked much better in limited minutes than he has most of the year. Both 3's were big, and he was very active on defense. He looked like the old Rasheed. I have not checked the stats yet, but Amile was strong on the boards, and had at least 3 blocks by my count. The best part was if my memory is correct, Amile only had 2 fouls, and spent a fair amount of time on Kyle.

The 3 amigo's, Jabari, Hood, and Quinn led the way but tonight they had a very good supporting cast. Josh played well and had good moments, Tyler did not shoot well, but was good on defense, Andre hit the NBA 3, but did have a bad turnover, and a couple of defensive mistakes, but loved seeing him become Rasheed's biggest fan. Andre has such a different outlook and obviously has become a "great teammate". Awesome to see.

Just a great team win against a worthy opponent. A sign of growth, and a nice step in the right direction if they are to become the team they want to be.

Can't way to see them back in Cameron on the 28th.

Go Duke!

Go To Hell Carolina!

Newton - we haven't really seen eye to eye lately, but I couldn't agree more with your post. I think this way by far our best defensive effort. We looked active, only got beat a few times, and the raining threes in the first half couldn't be prevented by this year's Pacers. Very impressed with the defensive improvement.

My $0.07:

1) Sulaimon! SULAIMON! S-U-L-A-I-M-O-N! My favorite player had a great game. He's slowly finding his role, and he's two steps closer to realizing what that role is. He had 1-2 offensive mistakes, but his D was top-notch and he finally broke out of his slump. Can't wait until he's got 100% confidence back. Watch out ACC. Watch out.

2) Cook is proving time and time again that he is a top 2 most important player. He is playing great offense, and his D is getting better and better. 7 steals. 7 steals! When was the last time a Duke player had 7 steals.

3) Cook's spin move is a thing of beauty. It is highly effective and he has clearly been working on it. He uses it around 2-3 times again, but when he does, it usually, if not always, throws off the defense.

4) Amile had his best game. He is extremely effective on the offensive end waiting for drop passes and getting open offensive rebounds. On defense, he is starting to really get it.

5) I'm happy that we didn't shot the 3 well and still won. Shows that we can score in a variety of ways (also, due to the law of averages, this game is probably 2-3 standard deviations away from what we normally shoot. Hopefully, it won't happen again).

6) I am very jealous that UCLA has Kyle Anderson. I love his game. He belongs in a Duke jersey.

7) I heard the Duke chants loud and clear. This was a home game. I'm not buying anyone who says it's a neutral site.

Newton_14
12-19-2013, 09:23 PM
I thought Wears twin had graduated. I am wrong. One of them played like a SG while another one disappeared in this game. How is that possible two top 10 forwards perform like this after N years' training. Blame UNC or UCLA?
In my honest opinion, T Wear, and Tony Parker are mid-major talent players. D Wear shoots it and handles the ball well enough to be on a high major team. Despite that, I was very impressed with the UCLA team. If they can get the rook's to calm down and mature a little bit they will be a solid Top 15 team. Need to shore up the defense, but with these new rules (thanks Bilas) the zone is going to become a staple of college hoops which is sad. UNC played zone almost exclusively last night against Texas. So we will either get a foul-fest game with both teams playing m2m or we will get 35-40 minutes of zone, neither of which are very appealing to me.

To finish my rant, if you are going to call a bump on a cutter moving on the court a foul, then you have to call a bump on a driver attempting to score a foul, but once again, the college refs swallow the whistle when our guys drive the lane and attack the basket. Rodney, Amile, and Rasheed all had drives tonight where they took significant contact with no call, Rodney moreso than the others. They balance that with the infamous phantom call when a defender is in the neighborhood on a putback, or a fastbreak (especially on a steal in the backcourt), and blow the whistle for the And-1 when the defender makes no contact at all. That call above all others in college hoops just irks me for some reason.

Potato Head
12-19-2013, 09:23 PM
I actually didn't think our first half offensive strategy or execution were that bad at all - UCLA was giving us MULTIPLE open looks at 3's and we have a lot of guys who can shoot it really well so I didn't have a problem with most of our shots. Unfortunately, we just didn't make many of them. But I gotta believe that won't happen often and if we had hit like we're capable of hitting from outside, we could have had a 6-9 point lead at the half.

This is spot on. Dickie V and Wojo both said we were impatient in the first half, but I think you don't always fail because you did something wrong. The looks were good. We did some other stuff in the second half to get some good mo' going and the shots started falling.

lotusland
12-19-2013, 09:28 PM
Thought the guys showed a bit more cohesiveness tonight on offense and defense and got in the open court a lot and were effective. That is more like I envisioned we would play with our lineup. Glad to see Sheed get to work through some mistakes tonight and make a positive contribution over all. I thought rebounding as a team was good. Everyone seemed to have a nose for the ball including Amile, Parker, Hood and Josh. Speaking of Josh he really looks more confident in his role now than ever. He looks to be in great shape and moves really well on defense. Cook is my favorite player this year. Dude is fearless. He definitely has his share of miscues but some of that inevitable playing as aggressively as he does. Amile is playing really well defensively and on the boards and he has some nifty moves against other bigs from 15 feet in. I don't expect much FT improvement this year. He just doesn't look comfy from the line at all.

I'm not sure UCLA is a good test for our weakness in the post though. They don't seem at comparable to Arizona or Kansas. Their bigs are all pretty passive down low. It seemed like we played off them a bit allowing them to settle for perimeter shots and they were more than willing to oblige. I hope we play UNC the same way but I still hope for Marshall to become a reliable option for post defense when we need him.

vick
12-19-2013, 09:28 PM
This is spot on. Dickie V and Wojo both said we were impatient in the first half, but I think you don't always fail because you did something wrong. The looks were good. We did some other stuff in the second half to get some good mo' going and the shots started falling.

I think the truth is between these views. They weren't bad looks but they weren't great--and too many were at or beyond the NBA line, which really does make a difference in percentages.

bbosbbos
12-19-2013, 09:39 PM
Why NCAA makes such a rule change? Who is in the control?

And I did notice that refs gave different calls to body contact against us. I do not know why this keeps happening. It is very hard to attack the rim when fouls are not called. Can anybody make an analysis on how many fouls have been called on us and on our opponent?


In my honest opinion, T Wear, and Tony Parker are mid-major talent players. D Wear shoots it and handles the ball well enough to be on a high major team. Despite that, I was very impressed with the UCLA team. If they can get the rook's to calm down and mature a little bit they will be a solid Top 15 team. Need to shore up the defense, but with these new rules (thanks Bilas) the zone is going to become a staple of college hoops which is sad. UNC played zone almost exclusively last night against Texas. So we will either get a foul-fest game with both teams playing m2m or we will get 35-40 minutes of zone, neither of which are very appealing to me.

To finish my rant, if you are going to call a bump on a cutter moving on the court a foul, then you have to call a bump on a driver attempting to score a foul, but once again, the college refs swallow the whistle when our guys drive the lane and attack the basket. Rodney, Amile, and Rasheed all had drives tonight where they took significant contact with no call, Rodney moreso than the others. They balance that with the infamous phantom call when a defender is in the neighborhood on a putback, or a fastbreak (especially on a steal in the backcourt), and blow the whistle for the And-1 when the defender makes no contact at all. That call above all others in college hoops just irks me for some reason.

WillJ
12-19-2013, 09:44 PM
Kyle Anderson was really fun to watch. His game goes to show that good ball-handling and the use of hesitation and misdirection can overcome a lack of conventional foot speed. Also helps to be 6-9.

Newton_14
12-19-2013, 09:53 PM
I actually didn't think our first half offensive strategy or execution were that bad at all - UCLA was giving us MULTIPLE open looks at 3's and we have a lot of guys who can shoot it really well so I didn't have a problem with most of our shots. Unfortunately, we just didn't make many of them.


This is spot on. Dickie V and Wojo both said we were impatient in the first half, but I think you don't always fail because you did something wrong. The looks were good. We did some other stuff in the second half to get some good mo' going and the shots started falling.

Just a slight quibble. Totally agree we had good shooters taking the shots, but like I said in my earlier post, to me, there are "good three's" and "bad three's", even if the shooter is capable and open. Examples of bad three's are for instance, 1.too early in the shotclock and/or ball has not been moved around much, 2. This sort of goes with 1, but "settling", meaning taking the 3 without first trying to get it inside or get the defense moving, such that a driving lane presents itself, 3. Impatient, which again goes with 1 and 2, where you take the 3 the very first time it presents itself, off 1 pass or even no passes. For whatever reason, unless a guy or team is just smoking hot, those 3's often don't go in. Those are the type 3's we took in the first half to a large degree.

In the second half, we started going inside, making the defense collapse, and then kicked it out to the open shooter, or we made multiple passes and made the defense rotate, and those 3's, to me are "good 3's" and we were hitting them at a high rate. One example was Quinn hitting Amile in the High Post, and then Amile kicks it to Rodney on the wing and he nailed it as the defense was slow to get a hand in his face. Actually I think Rodney made two of them like that in the 2nd half.

On almost every Duke team for years and years, when we take 3's off of a kickout from a post guy, or a wing who drives and dishes, we make a very high percentage.

The few times in the 2nd half where we took "bad three's" were mainly when the score was stuck at 61-50 and we missed them all. If my memory is correct, Quinn missed two, Rasheed missed 1, Hood missed 1, and Jabari missed 1. All 5 were either early in the clock, after only 1 or 2 passes, and/or before the ball ever went inside.

Kedsy
12-19-2013, 09:53 PM
I thought Wears twin had graduated. I am wrong. One of them played like a SG while another one disappeared in this game. How is that possible two top 10 forwards perform like this after N years' training. Blame UNC or UCLA?

Don't blame anyone. The Wears were ranked #37 and #38 in the RSCI. Josh Hairston was ranked #32. I don't think the Wears have developed any less than Josh. While it's true that sometimes players in that range develop into stars, a lot of times they don't.


1) Sulaimon! SULAIMON! S-U-L-A-I-M-O-N! My favorite player had a great game. He's slowly finding his role, and he's two steps closer to realizing what that role is. He had 1-2 offensive mistakes, but his D was top-notch and he finally broke out of his slump. Can't wait until he's got 100% confidence back. Watch out ACC. Watch out.

Before the game we were talking about Rasheed embracing his role, and tonight I think he did. With Jabari, Rodney and Quinn being the primary slashers on this team, Rasheed's role needs to be outside shooting and passing. And tonight four of his seven shots were three-point attempts and he had four assists in 18 minutes. Assuming he continues to embrace his role, I expect he'll keep getting better.


2) 7 steals. 7 steals! When was the last time a Duke player had 7 steals.

Everyone keeps talking about Quinn's 7 steals, but that's not what the official box score says.

It says 8. ;)


3) Cook's spin move is a thing of beauty. It is highly effective and he has clearly been working on it. He uses it around 2-3 times again, but when he does, it usually, if not always, throws off the defense.

Except at least once tonight, he started the spin and got stripped. He shouldn't get too enamored with it, IMO.


5) I'm happy that we didn't shot the 3 well and still won. Shows that we can score in a variety of ways (also, due to the law of averages, this game is probably 2-3 standard deviations away from what we normally shoot. Hopefully, it won't happen again).

Here's the thing about shooting the three in pro arenas: for whatever reason, the players tend to shoot from beyond the NBA line. I don't know if they don't realize it or they do and they want to show everyone they can shoot a pro 3, but this is something I've been noticing for years. Tonight it seemed at least half our three-point attempts were out at the NBA line, and I'd expect to shoot a much lower percentage from out there.


6) I am very jealous that UCLA has Kyle Anderson. I love his game. He belongs in a Duke jersey.

Someone in the pre-game thread said Anderson wasn't a first round draft pick, but I think that's crazy talk. To me, he looked very much like a pro out there.


7) I heard the Duke chants loud and clear. This was a home game. I'm not buying anyone who says it's a neutral site.

There were certainly more Duke fans than UCLA fans in the stands, but it didn't really feel like a home game. The fans weren't loud enough or the arena was too big for them to be heard or whatever. Maybe halfway between home and neutral?

roywhite
12-19-2013, 09:57 PM
Really really great win and the guys needed this one badly for their mental psychy. UCLA is a really good team that will be ranked in the Top 12-15 before all is said and done. UCLA threw a heavy punch in that first half and knocked our guys back and had them playing tentative, while the Bruins were cocky and feeling it (did the cocky Alford kid head bob irritate anyone other than me?). I thought Duke hit some big shots late in the first half to get back to even and a fresh start for the 2nd half. That was big.

2nd half, Duke threw the opening punch, then followed with a counter-punch and got it to 61-50, with a great chance to throw the knockout punch. That was my only real disappointment about this game. We had 5 straight possessions with the score at 61-50, and UCLA was reeling, and we took 5 "bad three's", which was puzzling because we had been taking "good three's" the entire half. I thought we sensed the kill but got impatient there. Fortunately, we played solid enough the rest of the way to not get bit by that lapse.



Yeah, really like the boxing analogy here. The challenger was landing blows in the first half and scorecards were even, but the champ controlled the action in the second half. We had the Bruins wobbly, but couldn't quite get the knockout for a while -- too many haymakers that just missed, and not enough patience. Still, we had key defensive plays and didn't allow the lead to shrink much. Eventually, the champ kept punching and the challenger faltered. Kind of a TKO result; got to feel like the trainer, Coach K, was pretty happy with this one.

jipops
12-19-2013, 10:11 PM
2nd half was great ball. We played with purpose on offense going inside out. And for possibly the first time all year the defense didn't let the other team's offense get behind them. Drives were actually contested and we made kick outs difficult. I thought Amile was key on D. Anderson was still able to score a few but it took away from the Bruins' entire offense.

Rasheed making a turnaround now? The guys really seem to love playing right now.

Troublemaker
12-19-2013, 10:13 PM
Jefferson played a huge role in turning the game around. On defense he guarded Anderson and blocked 2 shots. On offense his ability to flash to the middle, catch the ball, and then make the correct read got us out of our funk against the zone

Yes! I was so impressed with Amile in this game. In a long post elsewhere, I wrote that I was worried about Amile playing the backline against zones. I never thought to make him the flasher at the free-throw line area. Apparently he has good enough passing skills to do that, and the requisite length to operate from there. Coach K's a genius. That leaves the more athletic Jabari to catch lobs from the back and also to stand in the corner for threes and help crash down for offensive rebounds. I like that configuration a lot. Coach K's the man.

Loved the rebounding, the two blocked shots, the passion. Love Amile. You can do a lot of things with him. Very versatile player.

Troublemaker
12-19-2013, 10:23 PM
The guys really seem to love playing right now.

Yeah, I've been impressed with this team's personal chemistry and camraderie all season. (Something that, say, Kentucky would love to cultivate for their team.) Our guys are starting to develop basketball chemistry as well, having played more games and becoming more familiar with where each other will be and each other's strengths within the offense and defense. Good stuff is happening.

roywhite
12-19-2013, 10:25 PM
Yes! I was so impressed with Amile in this game. In a long post elsewhere, I wrote that I was worried about Amile playing the backline against zones. I never thought to make him the flasher at the free-throw line area. Apparently he has good enough passing skills to do that, and the requisite length to operate from there. Coach K's a genius. That leaves the more athletic Jabari to catch lobs from the back and also to stand in the corner for threes and help crash down for offensive rebounds. I like that configuration a lot. Coach K's the man.

Loved the rebounding, the two blocked shots, the passion. Love Amile. You can do a lot of things with him. Very versatile player.

Yep, some really good stuff from Amile. He even got out on the perimeter and guarded Anderson some; did a pretty decent job, I thought, or as well as any of our guys did vs Anderson. On the year, Amile is an ugly 9-30 from the FT line; last year, he finished at 61% from the line, so there's some hope. Other parts of his game seem to be coming together nicely.

mapleleafdevil
12-19-2013, 10:25 PM
I feel like Jabari could take over the game at any time and drop 40. But he just lets it come to him. Every once in a while he pulls a "look what I can do," and then settles in and plays team ball for the next 8 min. I'd love to see one game where they go to him all game.

DU82
12-19-2013, 10:29 PM
Kedsy, saw the same thing on threes, shooting too often behind the NBA line. We were shouting "the BLUE line, not the white line!"

I agree that it was Amile's best game. Besides theD and rebounding, I liked how he was used on O in the second half. Just inside the Key near the foul line, pivoting to find the open man. Very effective. We also found extra passes to get better shots, not just open shots.

UCLA looked slow and tired in the second half. Their Parker looked like he'd spent a little too much time at the cafeteria. Something Steve will need to work on with his team. His kid shot like an Alford, though.

The crowd was definitely majority Duke. Late in the game, during a timeout, the video board alternated between UCLA and Duke fans, with alternating boos and cheers. That was the loudest it ever really got. As expected in NYC, far too many fans came to see and be seen, rather than watch the game. (would have really bothered this board's namesake.) Back to a discussion about the NIT and/or the football championship. They did serve alcohol.

I presume on TV they showed one current Duke student and her father, the Boss, at least once or twice. Maybe he'd like to sing the national anthem at Cameron, perhaps for the Carolina game.

Troublemaker
12-19-2013, 10:38 PM
UCLA, complimenting Duke's defense


"Quinn Cook did a good job of pressuring the ball. That 94 feet of pressure is tough," said Anderson, who had six turnovers. "They didn't let us execute our offense. Duke's signature is the pressure defense, That's what they want to do and we fell into it."



Jordan Adams, the Bruins' leading scorer coming in with a 21.2 average, was held to 10 points on 4-of-10 shooting.

"I thought they did a really good job on him," Alford said. "This was the first time this season he's been held like that, containing him and keeping him off the free throw line."

Furniture
12-19-2013, 10:48 PM
On the ESPN half time show Jay called MsG "Cameron North"!

Dukehky
12-19-2013, 11:04 PM
Anyone know where the post-game presser can be seen? Or do we just have to wait for the quotes to be posted on goduke?

Thanks

Furniture
12-19-2013, 11:11 PM
Bruce Willis was in the crowd and rooting for Duke! I guess Dicky V didnt know that his daughter goes there!

Newton_14
12-19-2013, 11:20 PM
Anyone know where the post-game presser can be seen? Or do we just have to wait for the quotes to be posted on goduke?

Thanks

WRAL.com sports section normally will have the post-game presser up by the next morning. I would check there tomorrow morning if you have not seen it on GoDuke. Not sure if GoDuke still makes you pay to see those or not. They did at one time. WRAL almost always has them though and they are free there.

HCheek37
12-19-2013, 11:43 PM
Jefferson played a huge role in turning the game around. On defense he guarded Anderson and blocked 2 shots. On offense his ability to flash to the middle, catch the ball, and then make the correct read got us out of our funk against the zone, and he was opportunistic and efficient in scoring. His 18 rebounds over the past 2 games are a huge improvement over the 2 he had in the first 2 games of the year. Other than free throws, he did everything asked of him.

It's great to see him and Rasheed respond to being challenged. 6 rebounds and 4 assists for Rasheed.

Read my mind. Amile is a GREAT zone breaker. Strong with the ball and good decision maker...plus he is good around the hoop with reverse layups and going up strong on a feed from Q or another guard.

Awesome game from the Philly native

heyman25
12-19-2013, 11:44 PM
Bruce Willis was in the crowd and rooting for Duke! I guess Dicky V didnt know that his daughter goes there!What? Bruce Springteen? For history buffs Springsteen and the original E Street Band played at then called Duke Indoor Stadium in the Fall of 1975. I was in charge of ticket sales as an undergraduate and had great seats.

FireOgilvie
12-20-2013, 12:25 AM
Bruce Willis was in the crowd and rooting for Duke! I guess Dicky V didnt know that his daughter goes there!

That's just a Rumer.

BD80
12-20-2013, 02:35 AM
... Someone in the pre-game thread said Anderson wasn't a first round draft pick, but I think that's crazy talk. To me, he looked very much like a pro out there. ...

Well Kendall Marshall is a pro (again). May even start for the Lakers

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24381413/report-lakers-to-sign-point-guard-kendall-marshall-from-d-league


That's just a Rumer.

Scout was incorrect.

Bob Green
12-20-2013, 04:00 AM
I'm late to the discussion here (actually I'm early ;)) and I haven't read all the previous post so this has probably already been pointed out multiple times, our ball movement against UCLA's zone, in the 2nd half, was awesome. Teams will have an extremely hard time running a zone against us when we crisply move the ball inside-out like we did in the 2nd half. We did not shoot be ball as well as we could have but the ball movement created many excellent looks.

oldnavy
12-20-2013, 05:17 AM
For all the crying this year about "free throw contests," this game moved at a nice pace (about 1:50 of real time). It turns out it is possible to play basketball without fouling every possession!

Yes, this game was called different than the UNC Texas game thank goodness. It was a much more enjoyable game to watch. I wonder since Karl Hess was involved in the UNC game if someone said something to him and the crew about NOT mucking the game up with a gadzillion foul calls???

jv001
12-20-2013, 05:45 AM
Very satisfying win for Duke going into Christmas break. Great effort from the entire team. Led by Amile, Rasheed, Jabari, Cook and Hood. Hey that's five. Think this group will be seen more in the ACC season? Quinn played what I thought was one of his best games ever. He led the team like an elite point guard. When he missed a shot, he hustled back down court and stole the ball. He was encouraging his teammates and really into the game. Amile was a warrior and passed out to the high post like a veteran(good move by K). His work on the boards is what the team needs going forward. Rasheed got back on track and he showed how valuable his defense is. I look for him to build on this performance. Hood was terrific as well and he is more athletic than I thought coming into the season. And Jabari was just the best all around player on the court last night(most nights). Like someone else said, he could average 40 points if he wasn't such a good teammate. Great Christmas present for me and all Duke fans. GoDuke!

UrinalCake
12-20-2013, 06:20 AM
Excellent work on the boards, out rebounding them 41-33 (10-6 offensive), led by Jabari's 10. It was a team effort, as our guards came in and grabbed several. I was especially impressed with the board that Andre grabbed in traffic. If we can rebound and defend like we did today, we can beat anyone even when the three isn't falling. In the second half it really felt like one and done for UCLA every time down the court, which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on their offense. UCLA isn't a huge team, but still it was very satisfying to be the team exerting their will on the boards instead of the other way around.

SheltonBob
12-20-2013, 06:26 AM
Yes! And seeing our coaches and players on the bench go nuts for Sheed. Goosebumps. This is family.

Attended the game at MSG last night and planned to list my four highlights, and Troublemaker took my first point. Did not know if it was shown on TV, but the three super plays by Rasheed (the two treys and the GREAT pass for a lay up) were met by virtually the entire Duke bench leaping to its collective feet at once. Was a chilling moment as was his reaction.

Other three comments:

#1 - Amile Jefferson brought great energy and played great defense - covered Anderson for some minutes as well - GREAT

#2 - As smooth as he looks on TV, Jabari (also saw him in Arizona game at MSG) he is so efficient and terrific in person - A PLEASURE

#3 - What could be better than watching Duke Basketball in person in a great venue against an historic program - WHILE EATING A VERY LEAN CORNED BEEF SANDWICH FROM CARNEGIE DELI (one of the new food court items at MSG)!!!

77devil
12-20-2013, 07:40 AM
On the ESPN half time show Jay called MsG "Cameron North"!

Jay should know that The Meadowlands is Cameron North. Nevertheless, our fans are dominant in MSG too, given the alumni base in the area, unless the opponent is St. John or another area school.

As others have noted, last night's Duke crowd was pretty subdued for much of the game. It was more the crowd reacting to good play rather than generating its own energy. But that's typical for these games.

I echo much of the praise already written. It felt like the team made a big move forward in its development. One criticism, however, remains Jabari's defense. He was easily beaten too many times, missed switches, and rarely rotated to help. But he is so smooth and efficient on offense. I was a few rows from the court at the Duke end in the second half, and he makes it look almost effortless.

kAzE
12-20-2013, 08:00 AM
I'm just now getting to watching the game, since I wasn't able to catch it live. Good lord . . . are we sure Bryce Alford isn't the illegitimate son of Neil Patrick Harris?

That head bob after the 3 was legen . . . . wait for it . . . DARY!

Troublemaker
12-20-2013, 08:24 AM
Anyone know where the post-game presser can be seen? Or do we just have to wait for the quotes to be posted on goduke?

Thanks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWtb0fCeKM4

burnspbesq
12-20-2013, 08:42 AM
I'm late to the discussion here (actually I'm early ;)) and I haven't read all the previous post so this has probably already been pointed out multiple times, our ball movement against UCLA's zone, in the 2nd half, was awesome. Teams will have an extremely hard time running a zone against us when we crisply move the ball inside-out like we did in the 2nd half. We did not shoot be ball as well as we could have but the ball movement created many excellent looks.

Last night was the midterm in BB 208, Principles of Zone Offense. I'd say our guys got a B or B-plus.

The final is on February 1.

BD80
12-20-2013, 08:45 AM
. . . are we sure Bryce Alford isn't the illegitimate son of Neil Patrick Harris? ...

Pretty sure ...

Bob Green
12-20-2013, 08:51 AM
Last night was the midterm in BB 208, Principles of Zone Offense. I'd say our guys got a B or B-plus.

The final is on February 1.

Well I don't have to check the schedule to know who we play that day. :cool: I agree it will be a tough test.

Billy Dat
12-20-2013, 08:53 AM
Really happy to see Rasheed and Amile out there at crunch time.

I agree, and I was loving the Amile and Rasheed with Parker/Hood/Cook line-up, but it got me wondering if we are best served by sticking with the Hairston/Thornton starting combo and using the others as the closers. I can't find the quote, but K re-iterated, post-game, how much he loves and trusts Tyler and Josh and I am betting the starting roles are theirs for the foreseeable future as I bet K doesn't want to see any defensive slippage. Obviously, Parker, Hood and Cook give us plenty of scoring, and being able to bring Rasheed and Amile off the bench as, potentially, the next two guys might be a nice shot in the arm.


But as with much of UCLA, he was pretty much shut out in the second half. Pretty much have to like everything that we did in the second, figured out how to attack the zone and got a lot better on the rotations on D and stopped giving up the wide open long jumpers that we were in the first half.

My seats were on high in the corner, and our D in the first half was out of synch at times. Its very hard to stop Jordan Adams one-on-one, and their 3 point shooting was forcing us to extend a bit. I was not happy that they were getting wide open 3s, but I guess we didn't expect them to hit so many. At halftime, I was on the food line next to a seasoned UCLA alum who (A) thought we'd win by 10+ even with the score tied and (B) was killing Alford for playing the Wears at the expense of Levine. Still and all, we held them to 37 in the first half which was OK. Second half D they weren't getting the same penetration, save for Anderson who is a really tough match-up.


Cook is my favorite player this year. Dude is fearless. He definitely has his share of miscues but some of that inevitable playing as aggressively as he does. Amile is playing really well defensively and on the boards and he has some nifty moves against other bigs from 15 feet in. I don't expect much FT improvement this year. He just doesn't look comfy from the line at all.

I'm not sure UCLA is a good test for our weakness in the post though. They don't seem at comparable to Arizona or Kansas. Their bigs are all pretty passive down low. It seemed like we played off them a bit allowing them to settle for perimeter shots and they were more than willing to oblige. I hope we play UNC the same way but I still hope for Marshall to become a reliable option for post defense when we need him.



Except at least once tonight, he started the spin and got stripped. He shouldn't get too enamored with it, IMO.

Here's the thing about shooting the three in pro arenas: for whatever reason, the players tend to shoot from beyond the NBA line. I don't know if they don't realize it or they do and they want to show everyone they can shoot a pro 3, but this is something I've been noticing for years. Tonight it seemed at least half our three-point attempts were out at the NBA line, and I'd expect to shoot a much lower percentage from out there.

Someone in the pre-game thread said Anderson wasn't a first round draft pick, but I think that's crazy talk. To me, he looked very much like a pro out there.

There were certainly more Duke fans than UCLA fans in the stands, but it didn't really feel like a home game. The fans weren't loud enough or the arena was too big for them to be heard or whatever. Maybe halfway between home and neutral?

For both quotes, I agree about Quinn. He's starting to play at an extremely high level and if he continues to reduce his emotional distractions (bad face, excessive celebrating, impetuous hero ball), I think he's becoming one of top point guards in all of college basketball.

I was thinking the same thing as lotus as I walked out, because UCLA has no post presence (sorry TP), they were a good match-up for us. Like us, they were all perimeter and 3s.

Kedsy's point about pro arenas is dead on, they either get confused about which 3 line is correct or they get jacked up under the lights and in front of the NBA scouts. We launched a bunch of 24 footers last night.

Yes, Anderson is a pro. He's very much like Jalen Rose.

As for the fans, MSG may be Cameron North but, as others have said, its always an occasion for alums to gather with friends they haven't seen in a while and everyone is chatting and not paying close attention and cheering play by play. The fans got hyped up in the last 5 minutes, but otherwise it was a big snore. I feel like it has gotten much worse over the years, and I am going to add the blame of everyone also being buried in their phone 24/7. The last hugely charged Duke game in the NY metro area, to me, was when we lost to Pitt back in 2007 (same year as the iPhone introduction - draw your own conclusions). There was a lot of energy against Arizona, but I felt like it was coming from the Zona fans, even when the game was close.


I feel like Jabari could take over the game at any time and drop 40. But he just lets it come to him. Every once in a while he pulls a "look what I can do," and then settles in and plays team ball for the next 8 min. I'd love to see one game where they go to him all game.

I hope as the team evolves, we get smarter, and he gets more aggressive, about making sure he touches the ball ALL THE TIME. Forget Melo, the kid is reminding me of Magic Johnson. He doesn't have that kind of handle, but he can really pass and he draws so much attention that simply running the ball through him more will make great things happen. I am glad we finally started getting the ball into the middle of that zone, and Amile was very Zoubek-like (aka against Baylor) in his catch and redistribute role. My one nitpick about the offense was Rodney's tendancy to let the ball stick while he jab-stepped for 3-4 seconds. Keep it moving Rodney, don't bog down the offense, see if you have anything and, if not, move the rock and it will come back to you in a better spot. Better yet, get it to #1 and see how quickly you come open as they double and triple team him!

Very solid win.

vick
12-20-2013, 09:02 AM
Yes, this game was called different than the UNC Texas game thank goodness. It was a much more enjoyable game to watch. I wonder since Karl Hess was involved in the UNC game if someone said something to him and the crew about NOT mucking the game up with a gadzillion foul calls???

I'm not sure it was called that differently, to be honest. Aside from a couple of instances of bumping into shooters, I didn't notice very many instances that could have been called fouls in this game but weren't. It's not like Rick Barnes coached teams haven't been known to foul a lot--the guy ended a game against UNC with four players on the court back when he was at Clemson. Fouling UNC a ton might well be good strategy anyway given how dreadful a free throw shooting team they have been this year.

For the most part, the "new rules" aren't really new. Other than the near-impossibility of taking charges in the early few games, which they do seem to have walked back on (and rightly so, IMO), all they are doing is saying "that part in the rule book about not impeding players? Yeah, we're going to call it 50 times a game if you do it 50 times a game." Coaches are a somewhat cynical group, and in the past they have taught fouling precisely because they know many fans will react like you seem to have here and blame refs for calling "too many" rather than players for committing too many. I think it's quite right that the NCAA is cleaning up the game, it obviously can be done--see the success at the NBA, which has never been played at a higher level--and this game is an example of what I think more games will look like in the future if the NCAA has the guts to stick with it.

luburch
12-20-2013, 09:06 AM
It's been legitimately exciting to watch this team develop over these first few months. I can't wait to watch them come March.

kAzE
12-20-2013, 09:48 AM
Even though Sulaimon seems to be "back," I wouldn't be surprised to see him settle into a bench role for the rest of the year, kind of like what UCLA is doing with Zach LaVine. He's obviously one of our most talented guys, and I would expect him to get starter's minutes/be out there in crunch time, but I think Coach K lind of likes having a senior captain in the starting lineup and having an extra ball handler/playmaker off the bench. I think Sulaimon's best asset that could really help this team this year (other than his defense) is his great passing ability. He's such an underrated distributor, and even in some of his bad games earlier this year, he had some really nice dimes.

While I can definitely see Thornton as the permanent starter, I think it's only a matter of time before Jefferson supplants Hairston. This has already been discussed ad nauseum, so there's no need to go into major detail. Jefferson just brings so much to the table in terms of his rebounding and ability to catch and finish in the paint. If he can get a couple of blocks every game like in this game, that's going to be huge. He's just got so much potential . . . and no matter how many times I see him, I just can't believe how freakin long his arms are. Man, those are some long arms. I don't have any doubt he that despite his size of bulk, he is 100% capable of playing the center position with those arms. Just gotta keep feeding him and throwing him in the weight room. He is going to be all-ACC next year, once he slides over to his natural position as a 4, playing next to Okafor.

flyingdutchdevil
12-20-2013, 10:02 AM
Even though Sulaimon seems to be "back," I wouldn't be surprised to see him settle into a bench role for the rest of the year, kind of like what UCLA is doing with Zach LaVine. He's obviously one of our most talented guys, and I would expect him to get starter's minutes/be out there in crunch time, but I think Coach K lind of likes having a senior captain in the starting lineup and having an extra ball handler/playmaker off the bench. I think Sulaimon's best asset that could really help this team this year (other than his defense) is his great passing ability. He's such an underrated distributor, and even in some of his bad games earlier this year, he had some really nice dimes.

While I can definitely see Thornton as the permanent starter, I think it's only a matter of time before Jefferson supplants Hairston. This has already been discussed ad nauseum, so there's no need to go into major detail. Jefferson just brings so much to the table in terms of his rebounding and ability to catch and finish in the paint. If he can get a couple of blocks every game like in this game, that's going to be huge. He's just got so much potential . . . and no matter how many times I see him, I just can't believe how freakin long his arms are. Man, those are some long arms. I don't have any doubt he that despite his size of bulk, he is 100% capable of playing the center position with those arms. Just gotta keep feeding him and throwing him in the weight room. He is going to be all-ACC next year, once he slides over to his natural position as a 4, playing next to Okafor.

I see Hairston and (certainly moreso) Thornton being starters for at least another month, if not more. However, I will not be surprised if there is a changing of the guard, especially as we get closer to March. Hairston and Thornton bring stability and leadership, but it's becoming very evident that leadership is also coming from Jabari and, moreso, Cook. Sulaimon and Amile clearly have significantly more talent and potential than Thornton and Hairston, so I could easily see both of them starting as games becoming increasingly more important.

With Amile, rebounding ceases to be a liability and can potentially be an asset, especially on the offensive end (not Zoubs good, but enough to get a few extra buckets a game). Sulaimon brings the best balance of offense, defense, and playmaking. He's just a smart player that is slowly finding his own.

I haven't been this excited about this Duke team since the Davidson game. I feel that the team grew up for and during the UCLA game. Our D was significantly improved and the players are really discovering their roles:

Jabari - 1st Banana
Cook - Facilitator and Emotional Leader
Hood - Quiet Assassin
Dre - 3pt Bomber (and Destroyer of Opposing Wills)
Thornton - Scrappy Glue Guy
Sulaimon - 3, D, and See (ie, assess the situation which usually leads to a strong pass)
Hairston - Defensive Coordinator

I think that Amile's roll is still getting carved out. But I like where this team is going.

NYBri
12-20-2013, 10:47 AM
Attended the game at MSG last night and planned to list my four highlights, and Troublemaker took my first point. Did not know if it was shown on TV, but the three super plays by Rasheed (the two treys and the GREAT pass for a lay up) were met by virtually the entire Duke bench leaping to its collective feet at once. Was a chilling moment as was his reaction.

Other three comments:

#1 - Amile Jefferson brought great energy and played great defense - covered Anderson for some minutes as well - GREAT

#2 - As smooth as he looks on TV, Jabari (also saw him in Arizona game at MSG) he is so efficient and terrific in person - A PLEASURE

#3 - What could be better than watching Duke Basketball in person in a great venue against an historic program - WHILE EATING A VERY LEAN CORNED BEEF SANDWICH FROM CARNEGIE DELI (one of the new food court items at MSG)!!!

Indeed. Best post of the thread.

devildeac
12-20-2013, 11:02 AM
What? Bruce Springteen? For history buffs Springsteen and the original E Street Band played at then called Duke Indoor Stadium in the Fall of 1975. I was in charge of ticket sales as an undergraduate and had great seats.

Did they play there twice? I only remember spring, 1976 on their Born to Run tour. I recall that vividly as it was the night after my future wife and I had our hearing permanently damaged at a concert at the Greensboro Coliseum that featured Wet Willie, Journey and ELO. If they played there in 1975, I will start bawling like a child because I missed the show and was on the Major Attractions committee.

Kfanarmy
12-20-2013, 11:07 AM
Kyle Anderson was really fun to watch. His game goes to show that good ball-handling and the use of hesitation and misdirection can overcome a lack of conventional foot speed. Also helps to be 6-9. Every time someone mentions a player breaking down a defense with hesitation and misdirection I think of Jon Scheyer...he was a magician at times.

Kedsy
12-20-2013, 11:17 AM
Excellent work on the boards, out rebounding them 41-33 (10-6 offensive), led by Jabari's 10. It was a team effort, as our guards came in and grabbed several. I was especially impressed with the board that Andre grabbed in traffic. If we can rebound and defend like we did today, we can beat anyone even when the three isn't falling. In the second half it really felt like one and done for UCLA every time down the court, which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on their offense. UCLA isn't a huge team, but still it was very satisfying to be the team exerting their will on the boards instead of the other way around.

UCLA didn't appear to try to score inside, but they are a huge team. They start 6'10, 6'10, 6'9, 6'5, 6'4, and their subs go 6'9, 6'5, 6'3. They don't rebound so well for all that height, but they are big.

Remember when everyone was fretting about how defensive rebounding was a huge problem for this year's team? Well, here's a fun fact: right now Duke's raw defensive rebounding percentage (71.2) is 90th in the country. By comparison, in 2010 we were 174th and in 1999 we were 155th. If we can continue that percentage (and obviously that's not likely against a tough ACC), we'll have the best defensive rebounding percentage since at least 1996-97 (as far back as I looked).

It's funny how the comments here often don't go back more than one game. Two days ago, a lot of people were calling for Andre to start and essentially saying Rasheed was probably a lost cause. Now, Rasheed is "back" and nobody's talking about Andre. Well, I know he only played 7 minutes and shot 1 for 5, but I was encouraged by Andre's play. I've never seen him so aggressively looking for his shot. At one point, Josh had the ball at the top of the key and Andre stood on the wing, ready to shoot, clapping his hands repeatedly calling for the ball (deservedly so, he was wide open, but in the past he's just stood there hoping). Josh finally threw it to him, but too late -- the defender had closed and Andre's moderately contested shot missed, but to me it was a hopeful sign.

Listen to Quants
12-20-2013, 11:29 AM
Kedsy, saw the same thing on threes, shooting too often behind the NBA line. We were shouting "the BLUE line, not the white line!"

<snip>

Yeah. Like you guys, I think I see that a lot. I'm a little surprised by it, too. You'd think a NBA stripe painted, temporarily, on the Duke practice floor would fix it. Do the arenas the tournament sometimes have the NBA line? If not, that may be why K doesn't dwell on the problem.

77devil
12-20-2013, 11:29 AM
What? Bruce Springteen? For history buffs Springsteen and the original E Street Band played at then called Duke Indoor Stadium in the Fall of 1975. I was in charge of ticket sales as an undergraduate and had great seats.

Duke Indoor Stadium became Cameron in 1972. See below re: Springsteen.


Did they play there twice? I only remember spring, 1976 on their Born to Run tour. I recall that vividly as it was the night after my future wife and I had our hearing permanently damaged at a concert at the Greensboro Coliseum that featured Wet Willie, Journey and ELO. If they played there in 1975, I will start bawling like a child because I missed the show and was on the Major Attractions committee.

DD you are correct. The Boss played CIS on March 28, 1976. You may remember that there was a February 1975 Springsteen show that was scheduled but cancelled.

devildeac
12-20-2013, 11:34 AM
Duke Indoor Stadium became Cameron in 1972. See below re: Springsteen.



DD you are correct. The Boss played CIS on March 28, 1976. You may remember that there was a February 1975 Springsteen show that was scheduled but cancelled.

Whew! I didn't miss a Springsteen show on campus when I was there. I had forgotten about the cancelled show.

BTW, his daughter needs to buy him a Duke hat:D .

Duvall
12-20-2013, 11:36 AM
Yeah. Like you guys, I think I see that a lot. I'm a little surprised by it, too. You'd think a NBA stripe painted, temporarily, on the Duke practice floor would fix it. Do the arenas the tournament sometimes have the NBA line? If not, that may be why K doesn't dwell on the problem.

NCAA Tournament now uses its own floors, so that shouldn't be an issue.

lotusland
12-20-2013, 12:26 PM
Just a slight quibble. Totally agree we had good shooters taking the shots, but like I said in my earlier post, to me, there are "good three's" and "bad three's", even if the shooter is capable and open. Examples of bad three's are for instance, 1.too early in the shotclock and/or ball has not been moved around much, 2. This sort of goes with 1, but "settling", meaning taking the 3 without first trying to get it inside or get the defense moving, such that a driving lane presents itself, 3. Impatient, which again goes with 1 and 2, where you take the 3 the very first time it presents itself, off 1 pass or even no passes. For whatever reason, unless a guy or team is just smoking hot, those 3's often don't go in. Those are the type 3's we took in the first half to a large degree.

In the second half, we started going inside, making the defense collapse, and then kicked it out to the open shooter, or we made multiple passes and made the defense rotate, and those 3's, to me are "good 3's" and we were hitting them at a high rate. One example was Quinn hitting Amile in the High Post, and then Amile kicks it to Rodney on the wing and he nailed it as the defense was slow to get a hand in his face. Actually I think Rodney made two of them like that in the 2nd half.

On almost every Duke team for years and years, when we take 3's off of a kickout from a post guy, or a wing who drives and dishes, we make a very high percentage.

The few times in the 2nd half where we took "bad three's" were mainly when the score was stuck at 61-50 and we missed them all. If my memory is correct, Quinn missed two, Rasheed missed 1, Hood missed 1, and Jabari missed 1. All 5 were either early in the clock, after only 1 or 2 passes, and/or before the ball ever went inside.
I've always thought the ones that go in are good and the rest are bad unless there is a shooting foul that turns bad to good.

Eakane
12-20-2013, 12:26 PM
Happy not just that they both played well and logged bigger minutes, but also that they were in at crunch time with the outcome still in doubt.

Say what you want about the rotation (and I've said plenty myself), K has always had the knack for finding the hot hand. That was the case with Dawkins in the Michigan game. And doubly so last night with both Jefferson and Sulaimon. They both made big plays on both ends of the floor. I also thought Josh had a better game -- I didn't notice him taking any ill-advised shots, and my only quibble with TT in this game is that when he's out there with Quinn, Dawkins, Hood and Parker (as he was for one stanza), he really needs to look to pass first and only shoot second. Other than that, I thought he played good defense and had the nice backdoor basket.

This was good practice for the Syracuse games. Like Newton14 pointed out, all open threes are not created equal. In the first half, we were chucking; in the second we were shooting. Like Wojo said at the end of the first half, we didn't do a good job of breaking down the zone with dribbling and passing. We did that in the 2nd and won the game going away.

Really really satisfying win.

lotusland
12-20-2013, 12:33 PM
That's just a Rumer.

I heard it from a Scout.

azzefkram
12-20-2013, 01:04 PM
... nobody's talking about Andre. Well, I know he only played 7 minutes and shot 1 for 5, but I was encouraged by Andre's play. I've never seen him so aggressively looking for his shot. At one point, Josh had the ball at the top of the key and Andre stood on the wing, ready to shoot, clapping his hands repeatedly calling for the ball (deservedly so, he was wide open, but in the past he's just stood there hoping). Josh finally threw it to him, but too late -- the defender had closed and Andre's moderately contested shot missed, but to me it was a hopeful sign.

I was one of the people who thought Andre was too one dimensional to earn significant minutes but he is light-years better than he was his first three seasons. The defense still lags, but he is more engaged on that end and his errors are more of the "he made a bad play" than "what was he thinking" variety. His willingness to drive is a very welcome sight. You might have been impressed with his calling for the ball but I loved that he got 3 boards in 7 minutes.

jv001
12-20-2013, 01:12 PM
I was one of the people who thought Andre was too one dimensional to earn significant minutes but he is light-years better than he was his first three seasons. The defense still lags, but he is more engaged on that end and his errors are more of the "he made a bad play" than "what was he thinking" variety. His willingness to drive is a very welcome sight. You might have been impressed with his calling for the ball but I loved that he got 3 boards in 7 minutes.

Andre looks to be reacting rather than thinking too much. He's moving without the ball much better. He's a weapon against zones. GoDuke!

sagegrouse
12-20-2013, 01:21 PM
Having enjoyed your posts, I can only add an interpretation to the posts above:

This game unfolded like a fairy tale:

Duke showed its early prowess with its traditional lineup, moving to an 18-8 lead.
The evil Bruins then surged, led by the annoying young Alford, to take the lead.
Duke managed to gain a tie at halftime.
Duke again moved to a lead in the second half, and extended it to 61-49.
The evil Bruins charged again, but were foiled by the new Duke lineup, featuring Amile and Rasheed in addition to Sir Quinn, Sir Rodney and Sir Jabari.
The Blue Devils marched off into the sunset with their new lineup in the lead.


The Duke fans are euphoric and expect the new lineup to carry the day in all future games. There is even Sir Andre to throw into the breech in case the enemy is persistent.

Valiant yeomen, Josh and Tyler, will continue to provide toughness in hand-to-hand combat and have racked up many casualties. (Scalps provided upon requent.) Their confreres, Marshall and Semi, are available to man the catapults.

sage

flyingdutchdevil
12-20-2013, 01:46 PM
Having enjoyed your posts, I can only add an interpretation to the posts above:

This game unfolded like a fairy tale:

Duke showed its early prowess with its traditional lineup, moving to an 18-8 lead.
The evil Bruins then surged, led by the annoying young Alford, to take the lead.
Duke managed to gain a tie at halftime.
Duke again moved to a lead in the second half, and extended it to 61-49.
The evil Bruins charged again, but were foiled by the new Duke lineup, featuring Amile and Rasheed in addition to Sir Quinn, Sir Rodney and Sir Jabari.
The Blue Devils marched off into the sunset with their new lineup in the lead.


The Duke fans are euphoric and expect the new lineup to carry the day in all future games. There is even Sir Andre to throw into the breech in case the enemy is persistent.

Valiant yeomen, Josh and Tyler, will continue to provide toughness in hand-to-hand combat and have racked up many casualties. (Scalps provided upon requent.) Their confreres, Marshall and Semi, are available to man the catapults.

sage

Sage - your fairy tale storyline works better than Michael Bay's story line:


Duke showed its early prowess with solid play, humorous dialogue, and excitement, moving to an 18-8 lead.
The evil Bruins then surged, led by the annoying young Alford (dressed as a Russian or Megatron), to take the lead.
Duke slightly losses its confidence, but gets some back to a tie at halftime.
Coach K - dressed as Megan Fox - provides Duke with inspiration at halftime.
Duke again moves to a lead in the second half through a combination of high-octane explosions, multiple firing squads, and nuclear defenses to expend the lead to 61-49.
The evil Bruins charged again, but were foiled by the new Duke lineup, featuring Amile and Rasheed (dressed as the goofy sidekick and Martin Lawrence) in addition to Det. Quinn, Capt. Rodney and Jabari Witwicky. Duke fought back with even more high-octane explosions, gratuitous firing squads, and drone defenses
The Blue Devils marched off with cuts and bruises, the girls, and, of course, more high-octane explosions needed for the ACC-play sequel.

Newton_14
12-20-2013, 01:52 PM
I was one of the people who thought Andre was too one dimensional to earn significant minutes but he is light-years better than he was his first three seasons. The defense still lags, but he is more engaged on that end and his errors are more of the "he made a bad play" than "what was he thinking" variety. His willingness to drive is a very welcome sight. You might have been impressed with his calling for the ball but I loved that he got 3 boards in 7 minutes.

Totally agree with this. Andre has been a blessing. He works his tail off out there on defense even if it doesn't always pan out , and over the course of the season to date, he has made several really good defensive plays. Probably more than I have ever seen him make. I thought the 3 rebounds were huge as well and on one of them he had to fight like mad to secure the ball in traffic. If the effort is there, and he is in the right spot but just gets beat, I can live with it. Especially given how good he is on the other end.

Furniture
12-20-2013, 01:53 PM
I actually see TT dropping out of the starting line up at sometime and back to his tough, when needed, defense off the bench role but I am starting to think that Hairston might start for a long time and perhaps the whole season. I also think he is getting better. He knows his role and K values it! Also I feel that K doesn't make three captains to keep two on the bench.
Part of my reasoning is that I am now starting to think that MP3 may only come good next year.

miltk
12-20-2013, 03:12 PM
I felt playing against duke was like playing a mirror image of us only a team with more talent. Our front line? Forget it. The Wears are the worst forwards we've ever had and I'd have to run my list backwards to find them. Linear thinkers, can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Can't rebound, can't D. All they do is shoot the midrange. The fact that the two former bench players from unc are integral to our game speaks volumes of our talent level.

Kyle averages more rpg than Parker/Wear/Wear combined. Slow feet are slow feet whether man or zone - it doesn't matter.

We're the kind of team that has just enough talent to give good teams a run,,,,,,,,,for one half. Adams hasn't been hitting his 3's all season nor is he a go-to type guy. He's a 2nd option guy, and LaVine hasn't shown up in our two losses. Essentially, Kyle is forced to try to deliver a triple double in every game because no one is showing up, and no one is finishing. We run and play well in the open court unimpeded...that's it. We should start playing Loyola Marymount ball because that's all we do - let the other team score so'z we can get the ball back and try to score,,,maybe 15sec possessions. Ben had the ability to jerryrig this kind of team to play above it's combined talent, but these are HIS recruits.

So that's who you played last night

Troublemaker
12-20-2013, 04:31 PM
Good thoughts on your Bruins, miltk. Hopefully UCLA has more potential than what you're saying. Will be rooting for you guys to have a good season (except against Stanford) to give Duke a quality win.

Bob Green
12-20-2013, 04:41 PM
What? Bruce Springteen? For history buffs Springsteen and the original E Street Band played at then called Duke Indoor Stadium in the Fall of 1975. I was in charge of ticket sales as an undergraduate and had great seats.

Duke Indoor Stadium was renamed Cameron Indoor Stadium on January 22, 1972.

oldnavy
12-20-2013, 04:42 PM
Duke Indoor Stadium was renamed Cameron Indoor Stadium on January 22, 1972.

Wasn't that the "Robbie West" game?

heyman25
12-20-2013, 05:14 PM
Duke Indoor Stadium became Cameron in 1972. See below re: Springsteen.



DD you are correct. The Boss played CIS on March 28, 1976. You may remember that there was a February 1975 Springsteen show that was scheduled but cancelled.

I was thinking that Bruce could not have played during basketball season. I was guessing at the date.In any event it was a fantastic experience and I am glad Jessica Springsteen took her dad to see Duke beat UCLA last night.
Just an interesting fact about Major Attractions was in my freshman year, Duke had the opportunity to have David Bowie and his 1st American tour.That would have been Ziggy Stardust. The homophobic members of the committee that were predominately Deadheads booed and hissed Eric Greenspan for that possibility.We did manage to get The Faces featuring Rod Stewart, Ronnie Wood , Tetsu Yamauchi, Ian McLagan and Kenny Jones, despite all the Deadhead majority in those days who also objected to anything that was foreign to their narrow musical tastes.

devildeac
12-20-2013, 07:44 PM
I was thinking that Bruce could not have played during basketball season. I was guessing at the date.In any event it was a fantastic experience and I am glad Jessica Springsteen took her dad to see Duke beat UCLA last night.
Just an interesting fact about Major Attractions was in my freshman year, Duke had the opportunity to have David Bowie and his 1st American tour.That would have been Ziggy Stardust. The homophobic members of the committee that were predominately Deadheads booed and hissed Eric Greenspan for that possibility.We did manage to get The Faces featuring Rod Stewart, Ronnie Wood , Tetsu Yamauchi, Ian McLagan and Kenny Jones, despite all the Deadhead majority in those days who also objected to anything that was foreign to their narrow musical tastes.

Just curious-what year?

Saratoga2
12-20-2013, 08:47 PM
The lineup with Amile, Sheed, Jabari, Rodney and Quinn gives us enough offensive weapons such that teams can't double and triple Jabari without getting burned. This team also rebounds well and is decent on the defensive end. If we looked for pluses in the game, I would think the majority was with that lineup.

I think Andre can come in and give a scoring lift to the team, even though it didn't happen last night. If he had been in when Amile was playing the top of the key, he might have gotten more open shots. Matt also was in to play good defense and he has the ability to score and needs to work to get good shots when in.

I see Josh and Tyler as supporting players more than starters as the season wears on. Marshall got to improve a lot to contribute to the team. The guy we haven't seen much of is Semi. He is a terrific athlete with excellent strength. Love to see him gain some experience against the weaker opponents.

SoCalDukeFan
12-20-2013, 10:11 PM
UCLA didn't appear to try to score inside, but they are a huge team. They start 6'10, 6'10, 6'9, 6'5, 6'4, and their subs go 6'9, 6'5, 6'3. They don't rebound so well for all that height, but they are big.



The 6' 10"" Wear Twins don't really go inside and rebound nor does 6' 9" Anderson.

SoCal

heyman25
12-21-2013, 01:02 AM
Just curious-what year?

Fall or Winter of 1972 for Bowie.Could be mistaken. I didn't have the right dates for the name change of Cameron or Springsteen's show. I think Faces was 1974 and the Grateful Dead did play in Cameron with Speakers that nearly went to the ceiling.Since I grew up in Durham, I did see Traffic with Steve Winwood, Chris Wood and Jim Capaldi. That may have been spring of 1972.

devildeac
12-21-2013, 06:05 AM
Fall or Winter of 1972 for Bowie.Could be mistaken. I didn't have the right dates for the name change of Cameron or Springsteen's show. I think Faces was 1974 and the Grateful Dead did play in Cameron with Speakers that nearly went to the ceiling.Since I grew up in Durham, I did see Traffic with Steve Winwood, Chris Wood and Jim Capaldi. That may have been spring of 1972.

The Bowie dates were before my participation with Major Attractions. Faces in 1974 sounds about right and so does the Grateful Dead. Traffic was also before my time at the
Gothic Wonderland. I'll investigate a bit today and see if I can find as list of Major Attractions concerts at Duke from 1972-76.

And, getting back on topic, I was quite pleased with the overall performance against UCLA.

NYBri
12-21-2013, 08:45 AM
The Bowie dates were before my participation with Major Attractions. Faces in 1974 sounds about right and so does the Grateful Dead. Traffic was also before my time at the
Gothic Wonderland. I'll investigate a bit today and see if I can find as list of Major Attractions concerts at Duke from 1972-76.

And, getting back on topic, I was quite pleased with the overall performance against UCLA.

I was a frosh in '70 and IIRC there was an all day concert at Wade Stadium with the Beach Boys and the Dead. Not as odd a combination as The Eagles opening for John MaLaughlin and the Mahavishnu Orchestra in CIS.

I digress.

Watched the game on DVR for the first time last evening and was struck how this group is becoming a team. Good sign.

I also love Anderson's game. He and Jabari were in a league of their own.

CBecker
12-21-2013, 10:00 AM
I felt playing against duke was like playing a mirror image of us only a team with more talent. Our front line? Forget it. The Wears are the worst forwards we've ever had and I'd have to run my list backwards to find them. Linear thinkers, can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Can't rebound, can't D. All they do is shoot the midrange. The fact that the two former bench players from unc are integral to our game speaks volumes of our talent level.

Kyle averages more rpg than Parker/Wear/Wear combined. Slow feet are slow feet whether man or zone - it doesn't matter.


So that's who you played last night

Yeh, most UCLA fans call the Wears Tavis Wea and Avi Wea, as they don't rebound or defend :d
I wouldn't be excited about beating them on the boards. Still a very pleasing win overall though!

Skitzle
12-21-2013, 10:51 AM
I also love Anderson's game. He and Jabari were in a league of their own.

Anderson reminds me of Zidane (for any Soccer fans...). Not the most atheltic guy, but plays within himself so well that he always knows how to beat you.

I think he will have a long career as an NBA 2nd string player on great teams. If Jon Scheyer was 4 inches taller and had 2 eyes, he would also be in the NBA.

arnie
12-21-2013, 12:40 PM
Yeh, most UCLA fans call the Wears Tavis Wea and Avi Wea, as they don't rebound or defend :d
I wouldn't be excited about beating them on the boards. Still a very pleasing win overall though!

Careful now - this year David Wear grabs 1 bound every 5.0 minutes, Josh Haiston grabs 1 bound every 7.8 minutes . Tavis Wea deserves his name with 1 bound every 9+ minutes.

Ichabod Drain
12-21-2013, 01:59 PM
The 6' 10"" Wear Twins don't really go inside and rebound nor does 6' 9" Anderson.

SoCal

Anderson averages almost 9 rebounds a game.

richardjackson199
12-21-2013, 04:38 PM
The lineup with Amile, Sheed, Jabari, Rodney and Quinn gives us enough offensive weapons such that teams can't double and triple Jabari without getting burned. This team also rebounds well and is decent on the defensive end. If we looked for pluses in the game, I would think the majority was with that lineup.

I think Andre can come in and give a scoring lift to the team, even though it didn't happen last night. If he had been in when Amile was playing the top of the key, he might have gotten more open shots. Matt also was in to play good defense and he has the ability to score and needs to work to get good shots when in.

I see Josh and Tyler as supporting players more than starters as the season wears on. Marshall got to improve a lot to contribute to the team. The guy we haven't seen much of is Semi. He is a terrific athlete with excellent strength. Love to see him gain some experience against the weaker opponents.

I agree 100%. Our core lineup should be Quinn, Sheed, Jabari, Rodney, and Amile. Andre and Matt are the 2 subs who can bring us the most explosive potential on both ends of the floor. The only thing I'd add is that I also like the idea of Rasheed playing on the floor some with Andre (not always subbing them for each other). As others pointed out above, one of Rasheed's most underappreciated strengths is his passing and assists. He makes everyone around hm better. That beautiful assist to Jabari seemed to get him going against UCLA. (I envision Quinn to Amile, pass to Jabari (who gets double-triple teamed) pass over to Rasheed who whips it to Dawkins for wide open 3.) Of course Hood is also a core starting 5 player, just any of those guys can get hot and hurt teams on both ends of the floor. The key as Newton pointed out is good ball movement on offense, good 3's vs. bad 3's. We need to keep focusing on being patient on offense, with Jabari & Amile getting touches.
I called it a core lineup because although it's our best lineup, I'm fine if K wants to keep our captains Hairston & Thornton as starters for chemistry & leadership. They are providing solid, tough roles for this team. We just have to use them judiciously so that opposing teams aren't exploiting us 5 against 3 when we're on offense. I'd also love to see improvement & development from Marshall & Semi. They both have so much potential to help this Duke team at our positions of greatest need, especially against teams with more size. Improved defense, rebounding, and free throw shooting from early in the season are very encouraging. I love watching this Duke team play and grow. Go Duke!

dukelifer
12-21-2013, 05:21 PM
Tony Parker and Tarik Black averaging a combined 9 points and 9 rebounds a game. Safe to say we dodged a couple of bullets there . . .

Great to see Sulaimon back in the mix.

Black had 17 against GTown today.

kAzE
12-22-2013, 01:12 AM
Black had 17 against GTown today.

. . . bringing his total for the last 5 games to . . . 17. He's a 5th year senior, he's not going to suddenly become a dominant force. Credit to him, he had a good game, but it's just 1 good game.

dukelifer
12-22-2013, 09:51 AM
. . . bringing his total for the last 5 games to . . . 17. He's a 5th year senior, he's not going to suddenly become a dominant force. Credit to him, he had a good game, but it's just 1 good game.

Also a bit early to call him non-productive. Kansas is deep.

greybeard
12-24-2013, 12:52 AM
I agree 100%. Our core lineup should be Quinn, Sheed, Jabari, Rodney, and Amile. Andre and Matt are the 2 subs who can bring us the most explosive potential on both ends of the floor. The only thing I'd add is that I also like the idea of Rasheed playing on the floor some with Andre (not always subbing them for each other). As others pointed out above, one of Rasheed's most underappreciated strengths is his passing and assists. He makes everyone around hm better. That beautiful assist to Jabari seemed to get him going against UCLA. (I envision Quinn to Amile, pass to Jabari (who gets double-triple teamed) pass over to Rasheed who whips it to Dawkins for wide open 3.) Of course Hood is also a core starting 5 player, just any of those guys can get hot and hurt teams on both ends of the floor. The key as Newton pointed out is good ball movement on offense, good 3's vs. bad 3's. We need to keep focusing on being patient on offense, with Jabari & Amile getting touches.
I called it a core lineup because although it's our best lineup, I'm fine if K wants to keep our captains Hairston & Thornton as starters for chemistry & leadership. They are providing solid, tough roles for this team. We just have to use them judiciously so that opposing teams aren't exploiting us 5 against 3 when we're on offense. I'd also love to see improvement & development from Marshall & Semi. They both have so much potential to help this Duke team at our positions of greatest need, especially against teams with more size. Improved defense, rebounding, and free throw shooting from early in the season are very encouraging. I love watching this Duke team play and grow. Go Duke!

I'm not getting this 5 on 3 business. Duke more often than not has played with a defensive specialist starting. The 2010 Championship team had two bigs starting who were not scoring threats, nor were the Plumlees who rotated with them. I can understand the preference for the lineup being mentioned, but 5 on 3 strikes me as gratuitously demeaning. If Hairston or Thorton are left unguarded inside, they get it and score (ie, the 3 point play off a pass behind the zone). Thorton is far less likely than the team's big time scorers to shoot when open, but will if the situation calls for it or he is feeling it. That does not distinguish him from a starter or starters on most Division one schools. If Thorton shots early in the clock and misses, he might get some time to stay on the court, but more often will come out just like everyone else not named Parker, Hood, or Cook. Hairston wears people out, he is a rough and decent defender and rebounder. He usually contributes a few points on offense.

Most importantly, what is overlooked here is that Thorton and Hairston make Duke present as Duke. The new guys not so much. You want Kentucky?

Rasheed gave the ball up nicely against UCLA. That was missing from his game before he sat. He is the best that Duke has to run with Quin, but I think that he needs to develop more of that to belong on the court for longer periods. Cook needs to rest, and Sheed needs to improve his ability to control his game on offense, to be a point or point wing to really be impactful. Duke needs that from him. Glad to see it is beginning to get it.

kAzE
12-24-2013, 01:00 AM
I'm not getting this 5 on 3 business. Duke more often than not has played with a defensive specialist starting. The 2010 Championship team had two bigs starting who were not scoring threats, nor were the Plumlees who rotated with them. I can understand the preference for the lineup being mentioned, but 5 on 3 strikes me as gratuitously demeaning. If Hairston or Thorton are left unguarded inside, they get it and score (ie, the 3 point play off a pass behind the zone). Thorton is far less likely than the team's big time scorers to shoot when open, but will if the situation calls for it or he is feeling it. That does not distinguish him from a starter or starters on most Division one schools. If Thorton shots early in the clock and misses, he might get some time to stay on the court, but more often will come out just like everyone else not named Parker, Hood, or Cook. Hairston wears people out, he is a rough and decent defender and rebounder. He usually contributes a few points on offense.

Most importantly, what is overlooked here is that Thorton and Hairston make Duke present as Duke. The new guys not so much. You want Kentucky?

Rasheed gave the ball up nicely against UCLA. That was missing from his game before he sat. He is the best that Duke has to run with Quin, but I think that he needs to develop more of that to belong on the court for longer periods. Cook needs to rest, and Sheed needs to improve his ability to control his game on offense, to be a point or point wing to really be impactful. Duke needs that from him. Glad to see it is beginning to get it.

Just so we're all on the same page here, are we talking about the villian from the X-Men series (http://www.comicvine.com/the-professor/4005-9392/) or the Pokemon character? (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Factory_Head_Thorton)

I always get those 2 mixed up.

greybeard
12-24-2013, 01:34 AM
Just so we're all on the same page here, are we talking about the villian from the X-Men series (http://www.comicvine.com/the-professor/4005-9392/) or the Pokemon character? (http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Factory_Head_Thorton)

I always get those 2 mixed up.

Generational; I haven't a clue about the players, in your games, not Dukes, although I do butcher the spelling which is your point. You don't disagree with the analysis. How could you.? Nothing particularly controversal; just stating the obvious facts, seeming elusive to some, but obvious nonetheless. Or, is there an opinion lurking; you know, just say where you stand, maybe defend, It's late, I do apologize sincerely for the rotten spelling Perfectly okay not to get a pass. Would I give one, just what you see, what pops out. No harm in that.

kAzE
12-24-2013, 02:46 AM
Generational; I haven't a clue about the players, in your games, not Dukes, although I do butcher the spelling which is your point. You don't disagree with the analysis. How could you.? Nothing particularly controversal; just stating the obvious facts, seeming elusive to some, but obvious nonetheless. Or, is there an opinion lurking; you know, just say where you stand, maybe defend, It's late, I do apologize sincerely for the rotten spelling Perfectly okay not to get a pass. Would I give one, just what you see, what pops out. No harm in that.

I mean, I agree with you for the most part that it's not "5 on 3" when Thornton and Hairston are in the game, that's just ridiculous. They are certainly not Parker and Hood on offense, but it's not like they leave the court when we are on offense. Hairston is still a dependable screener and Thornton can hit that corner 3 if he's open.

However, I disagree that Sulaimon was "missing" that part of his game before the UCLA contest. Sulaimon has always been a pretty good ball handler and distributor. Even in his bad games this year, he's made some pretty nice plays passing the ball. The problem (aside from consistent effort on defense) is that he needs to learn how to play when he doesn't have the ball. I think he's probably making progress in that area, considering what coaches have said about his performance in practice recently.

richardjackson199
12-24-2013, 09:17 AM
I'm not getting this 5 on 3 business. Duke more often than not has played with a defensive specialist starting. The 2010 Championship team had two bigs starting who were not scoring threats, nor were the Plumlees who rotated with them. I can understand the preference for the lineup being mentioned, but 5 on 3 strikes me as gratuitously demeaning. If Hairston or Thorton are left unguarded inside, they get it and score (ie, the 3 point play off a pass behind the zone). Thorton is far less likely than the team's big time scorers to shoot when open, but will if the situation calls for it or he is feeling it. That does not distinguish him from a starter or starters on most Division one schools. If Thorton shots early in the clock and misses, he might get some time to stay on the court, but more often will come out just like everyone else not named Parker, Hood, or Cook. Hairston wears people out, he is a rough and decent defender and rebounder. He usually contributes a few points on offense.

Most importantly, what is overlooked here is that Thorton and Hairston make Duke present as Duke. The new guys not so much. You want Kentucky?

Rasheed gave the ball up nicely against UCLA. That was missing from his game before he sat. He is the best that Duke has to run with Quin, but I think that he needs to develop more of that to belong on the court for longer periods. Cook needs to rest, and Sheed needs to improve his ability to control his game on offense, to be a point or point wing to really be impactful. Duke needs that from him. Glad to see it is beginning to get it.

I wasn't meaning to demean Thornton or Hairston. I love the roles, toughness, and leadership I believe they bring to the team. That's why I said I'm fine with them starting; they're good captains. This year's team just has so much talent that I believe our ceiling is highest with majority minutes going to the lineups agreed upon by many in this thread. Arizona I believe exploited us by having Thornton or Hairston's man double or triple team Jabari when he got the ball. That is what I meant by 5 on 3. Other teams can afford to do that because Hairston & Thornton's offensive potential are fairly limited compared to some of our other guys. I don't see us beating really good teams with both Thornton and Hairston playing huge chunks of minutes together on the offensive end of the floor. I'm glad they're on our team, I love their games, and I believe they will help us be successful this year. They represent Duke well.

I get your point, but I don't see anything about our Duke team resembling Kentucky. Even next year I don't see that. Coach K always likes to blend experience and leadership with young talent. He always recruits quality young men who put the team above themselves and who like being part of something bigger than themselves.

Indoor66
12-24-2013, 09:22 AM
I mean, I agree with you for the most part that it's not "5 on 3" when Thornton and Hairston are in the game, that's just ridiculous. They are certainly not Parker and Hood on offense, but it's not like they leave the court when we are on offense. Hairston is still a dependable screener and Thornton can hit that corner 3 if he's open.

However, I disagree that Sulaimon was "missing" that part of his game before the UCLA contest. Sulaimon has always been a pretty good ball handler and distributor. Even in his bad games this year, he's made some pretty nice plays passing the ball. The problem (aside from consistent effort on defense) is that he needs to learn how to play when he doesn't have the ball. I think he's probably making progress in that area, considering what coaches have said about his performance in practice recently.

I have to agree with Greybeard here. Sulaimon has a tendency, no, a proclivity, to put his head down and go with the drive to his right. When he sets up, he goes and rarely checks the whole court. He often drives into heavy traffic and fails to pull up or look to pass. In the UCLA game he was a little better with his view of the court. If he continues to progress and look to pass when the lane clogs, I think he will see more court time. If he fails to continue to develop that ability he will sit a lot.

richardjackson199
12-24-2013, 09:27 AM
In the UCLA game he was a little better with his view of the court.

A little better? He had 4 assists in 18 minutes against UCLA. That is pretty efficient for a 2 guard. I love Sulaimon and think he makes everybody around him better, so I admit I'm biased!

Kedsy
12-24-2013, 10:16 AM
...although I do butcher the spelling which is your point.

You've spelled Tyler Thornton's last name the exact same way for four years now, despite that way being incorrect and you being corrected more times than most people can count. That's not butchering so much as a deliberate disregard for accuracy. Personally, I think it's disrespectful to Tyler, although I've assumed for some time now that you do it on purpose to get the goat of people (like me) who care about such things.

Troublemaker
12-24-2013, 12:56 PM
This article about Sheed is a few days old, but I hadn't seen the quotes discussed yet. (Sorry if already posted and I missed it) http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/12/20/3475479/rasheed-sulaimon-returned-to-his.html

Good stuff with answers to questions we've been wondering about.


“I just have to thank the coaches and my teammates; they helped me through the ups and downs and never lost faith in me. It was up to me to get it back going, and I think you kind of saw that today. Every time I made a big play or a mediocre play, the excitement. It was easy for me to play hard for those guys who always have my back.”

The bolded statements below seems like the answer to what Sheed "needed to do."


Sulaimon said the 12-day break in between the Michigan and the Gardner-Webb games was the best thing that could have happened to him. It allowed him to refocus, to show his teammates his value in practice by bringing energy and defense.

He had been pressing in past games, he said, trying too hard to make something positive happen.

“It’s just a mental thing,” he said. “To be honest, I probably wasn’t as mentally tough as I should have been. Once I got that out of the way and stopped thinking about, ‘Woe (is) me,’ I just focused on what can I do to help this team win.”

Before his renaissance in practice, there weren’t many pats on the back. It was more tough love, which Thornton displayed after the Michigan game when he said of Sulaimon, “As a man, he has to step up and accept what he needs to do.”

“They just expect a lot out of me,” Sulaimon said of teammates and coaches. “That’s just our whole program, we don’t allow any weaknesses, and they expect excellence. I wasn’t giving that at first, and they definitely got on me for that. When I started making the turn in practices, then they started jumping on the bandwagon and tried to get my confidence back.




“Every single person has always had my back. Whether it’s getting on me when something is going wrong or picking me up when I’m down, nobody has ever turned against me or anything like that. I’m very thankful and grateful to be in this situation where I have a team like that.”

Great kid, great teammates, great coaches. Proud of this program, as always.

greybeard
12-24-2013, 10:20 PM
You've spelled Tyler Thornton's last name the exact same way for four years now, despite that way being incorrect and you being corrected more times than most people can count. That's not butchering so much as a deliberate disregard for accuracy. Personally, I think it's disrespectful to Tyler, although I've assumed for some time now that you do it on purpose to get the goat of people (like me) who care about such things.

Not so, not purposeful, for practical purposes it is what it is.

subzero02
12-24-2013, 10:27 PM
Not so, not purposeful, for practical purposes it is what it is.

And it is Thornton...

greybeard
12-24-2013, 10:35 PM
And it is Thornton...

Do you think he deserves to be out there, or just know how to spell his name.

subzero02
12-24-2013, 11:17 PM
Right now I give Thornton the slight edge over Matt Jones but want to see both receive significant playing time as we work our way into conference play.

Kedsy
12-24-2013, 11:20 PM
Right now I give Thornton the slight edge over Matt Jones but want to see both receive significant playing time as we work our way into conference play.

You rate Matt above Rasheed and Andre? While I think they're all really good, I'd personally put Matt fourth on the SG ladder right now.

BD80
12-25-2013, 09:31 AM
You've spelled Tyler Thornton's last name the exact same way for four years now, despite that way being incorrect and you being corrected more times than most people can count. That's not butchering so much as a deliberate disregard for accuracy. Personally, I think it's disrespectful to Tyler, although I've assumed for some time now that you do it on purpose to get the goat of people (like me) who care about such things.

Has Greybeard been a ThorNton in your side?

Kedsy
12-25-2013, 12:57 PM
Has Greybeard been a ThorNton in your side?

Better than a Thor in my side...

subzero02
12-25-2013, 01:00 PM
You rate Matt above Rasheed and Andre? While I think they're all really good, I'd personally put Matt fourth on the SG ladder right now.

1. Rasheed.. 2.Andre.. 3.Tyler 4. Matt

That's the order I predict for them in terms of what their impacts will be over the course of the entire season...

greybeard
12-25-2013, 03:17 PM
That's what I thought: you guys are right, K is wrong, and T doesn't belong on the court except as little more than a bit player. That would be T, the guy whom K calls a coach on the floor; they already have lots of those on the bench. The guy who has defined tough, hustle, and good judgment on the court since he arrived. And, I am not saying that you disrespect anyone. It's just . . . .

Indoor66
12-25-2013, 03:47 PM
That's what I thought: you guys are right, K is wrong, and T doesn't belong on the court except as little more than a bit player. That would be T, the guy whom K calls a coach on the floor; they already have lots of those on the bench. The guy who has defined tough, hustle, and good judgment on the court since he arrived. And, I am not saying that you disrespect anyone. It's just . . . .

...that he isn't flashy or super "athletic" or a driver or or or or or - he is just a winner. The kind of player K likes! :cool:

Des Esseintes
12-25-2013, 03:50 PM
That's what I thought: you guys are right, K is wrong, and T doesn't belong on the court except as little more than a bit player. That would be T, the guy whom K calls a coach on the floor; they already have lots of those on the bench. The guy who has defined tough, hustle, and good judgment on the court since he arrived. And, I am not saying that you disrespect anyone. It's just . . . .

You know what's tiresome? Acting like K agrees with you when he doesn't. By the end of this season, it's very likely Andre and Rasheed will have had bigger impacts than Tyler. No discredit to Tyler: that's just what K has previously done. In the 2011 season, Andre played 778 minutes; Tyler played 337. In 2012, Andre played 760 minutes; Tyler played 717. Last year, Andre didn't play. That season, Rasheed played 1050 minutes; Andre played 791. It is not only *not* disrespectful for subzero to suggest Rasheed and Andre will end up with more court time than Tyler, it will also be EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST. Maybe not the imaginary past of the universe you inhabit in which Marshall and Zoubek dribble two basketballs between their legs at once and cure cancer with a good, hard stare, but the actual human past the rest of us experienced. K does not agree with you.

There is unreasonable criticism of Tyler and Josh on this board, but that's not what you are responding to here. To say Tyler will be a useful, admired rotation piece who plays less than two other guys is not "disrespect."

greybeard
12-25-2013, 05:18 PM
You know what's tiresome? Acting like K agrees with you when he doesn't. By the end of this season, it's very likely Andre and Rasheed will have had bigger impacts than Tyler. No discredit to Tyler: that's just what K has previously done. In the 2011 season, Andre played 778 minutes; Tyler played 337. In 2012, Andre played 760 minutes; Tyler played 717. Last year, Andre didn't play. That season, Rasheed played 1050 minutes; Andre played 791. It is not only *not* disrespectful for subzero to suggest Rasheed and Andre will end up with more court time than Tyler, it will also be EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST. Maybe not the imaginary past of the universe you inhabit in which Marshall and Zoubek dribble two basketballs between their legs at once and cure cancer with a good, hard stare, but the actual human past the rest of us experienced. K does not agree with you.

There is unreasonable criticism of Tyler and Josh on this board, but that's not what you are responding to here. To say Tyler will be a useful, admired rotation piece who plays less than two other guys is not "disrespect."

Who "played" when the game was on the line, more? Andre or T? Right now, if those two guys with all this experience are not getting minutes compared to T, you might be right but IT DOES NOT SEEM LIKE THEY NEED OTHER SHOOTER/SCORERS on the court this year, at least not for extended minutes. They need to get the ball to the two guys who are killing people. So far it seems that A will get time when they need a spark, they need instant 3s. He misses, he's done. Otherwise, so far, K must see him as marginal. Was he marginal in previous years? It doesn't seem like it. And, really, 760 to 717, proves? Who was in when the game was close going down the stretch or at crucial times. Don't answer.

R had a terrific freshman year, outstanding. This year not yet. R showed last game that he could begin to see himself as a third option, that his job is to get it to either P or H, and to try to do that multiple times on each possession, either that or to keep it moving so someone else might. I have said that I think that they need someone who could do that and score late in the clock if C is out, and that I think that that is what K wants to see from R. I will repeat, T was in the game at crucial times, at points when the game seemed to hang in the balance and at the end, when it unquestionably did. So was R. Hopefully, he will show discernment such that it will be so again this season. Last game was a good start.

T's presence on the court tells the rest of the team how to play. How does he do that and what is the message? Come on. And, he remains the toughest, most determined, get-the-ball at all costs, and most generous guy on the team. He is the enforcer; Duke almost always has had one, and he is it. If there comes a time when K determines that he does not need T on the court at crucial times, it is alright with me. It seems that, when it is otherwise, it is not alright with you. So be it. I get the point. I do not think that you DO!

If Z was not the key piece on the Championship team, how come the next year's team went relatively nowhere. And, it just so happens that Wojo has said almost exactly what I have been saying, which is that MP is key if Duke is to reach its "potential." I suppose you see Wojo as living in an "imaginary universe" too.

I have not said that I disrespect anyone, and I don't.

Newton_14
12-25-2013, 05:35 PM
Not so, not purposeful, for practical purposes it is what it is.

Ok GB, thou must type "Thornton" on your computer 100 times as your punishment!

Merry Christmas!

greybeard
12-25-2013, 06:06 PM
Ok GB, thou must type "Thornton" on your computer 100 times as your punishment!

Merry Christmas!

Shelden, Shelden, Shelden, Shelden, or is it Sheldon, Sheldon, Sheldon. I could never be sure. I think Tyler is a mensch; he can play some too.

greybeard
12-25-2013, 06:31 PM
Ok GB, thou must type "Thornton" on your computer 100 times as your punishment!

Merry Christmas!

Hey, Newton, I almost forgot, a very Merry Christmas to you. May the embodied peace bless us all.

Newton_14
12-25-2013, 06:41 PM
Hey, Newton, I almost forgot, a very Merry Christmas to you. May the embodied peace bless us all.

Thank you! I appreciate it. Good job getting Shelden correct!

On a serious note, I am likely the leader or co-leader with ncexnyc of the Tyler Thornton Fan Club. I have loved his play since his first game at Duke. He just "gets it" and has from Day 1 for the most part. Were he 6'7 or 6'8, he would be akin to Billy King and wreak more havoc on the court than he already does. I will definitely miss him next year.

kAzE
12-25-2013, 08:12 PM
Thank you! I appreciate it. Good job getting Shelden correct!

On a serious note, I am likely the leader or co-leader with ncexnyc of the Tyler Thornton Fan Club. I have loved his play since his first game at Duke. He just "gets it" and has from Day 1 for the most part. Were he 6'7 or 6'8, he would be akin to Billy King and wreak more havoc on the court than he already does. I will definitely miss him next year.

Good grief, if he were that big, I would fear for our opponents safety. And speaking of safety, TT has always struck me as a guy who would have been a great safety in football. He'd be a sure tackler, he can deliver some pretty hard hits, he wouldn't back down from anyone, and would have great instincts in reading where the opposing QB is going with the ball. It's interesting to think about.

Des Esseintes
12-26-2013, 02:26 AM
If Z was not the key piece on the Championship team, how come the next year's team went relatively nowhere.

I just wanted to highlight this little master class in sanity and clear-eyed argument, since I assume very few readers got all the way to the bottom of the post.

In other news, the '94 team made the NCAA Final because it no longer had Bobby Hurley to hold it back. Boom. Greybearded.

Skitzle
12-26-2013, 06:34 AM
Who "played" when the game was on the line, more? Andre or T?


Against UCLA, neither. It was Rasheed.

Here are the second half Substitutions and scores for Rasheed:
Source (http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2013/12/19/ucla-63-duke-80/play_by_play)

Time Score (Duke First)
15:21 47-45 Sulaimon In Thornton Out
10:24 61-50 Sulaimon Out Dawkins In
9:29 61-50 Dawkins Out Sulaimon In
7:48 63-51 Sulaimon Out Thornton In
5:13 65-57 Sulaimon In Thornton Out
No more subs...
Final Score 80-63

Total Minutes played in second half:
Rasheed: 11:51
Thornton: 7:14
Dawkins: :55

Total game minutes:
Sheed: 18
Thornton: 19
Dawkins: 7
Matt Jones: 2


You'll get no argument from as to TT's value to this team. After his sneaky 3pt play, Duke lost the lead (they tied once), and I love him starting.

Andre Dawkins will rarely see more time in a game than Thornton, but this team will be at it's best when Sheed is playing more minutes than Thornton.

Kedsy
12-26-2013, 10:58 AM
If Z was not the key piece on the Championship team, how come the next year's team went relatively nowhere.

Come on, greybeard. Even you must realize what a ridiculous statement this is. But in case you really don't:

(a) The 2010 team had three starters that didn't come back the following season, two of whom played significantly more minutes than Brian Zoubek;

(b) The 2011 team lost arguably its most important player for almost three-quarters of the season;

(c) Despite the aforementioned injury to Kyrie Irving, the 2011 team had a better record than the 2010 team (30-4 vs. 29-5) going into the NCAAT;

(d) If LaceDarius Dunn of Baylor had hit 83% of his three-pointers against Duke in 2010 the way Derrick Williams did against Duke in 2011, the 2010 team would have gone just as "relatively nowhere" as the 2011 team. Do you intend to argue that difference was due to Zoubek?

I think everyone agrees that Brian Zoubek was an important part of the 2010 championship, but your repeated assertion that he was the "key piece" is just plain silly.

tommy
12-26-2013, 01:16 PM
Come on, greybeard. Even you must realize what a ridiculous statement this is. But in case you really don't:

(a) The 2010 team had three starters that didn't come back the following season, two of whom played significantly more minutes than Brian Zoubek;

(b) The 2011 team lost arguably its most important player for almost three-quarters of the season;

(c) Despite the aforementioned injury to Kyrie Irving, the 2011 team had a better record than the 2010 team (30-4 vs. 29-5) going into the NCAAT;

(d) If LaceDarius Dunn of Baylor had hit 83% of his three-pointers against Duke in 2010 the way Derrick Williams did against Duke in 2011, the 2010 team would have gone just as "relatively nowhere" as the 2011 team. Do you intend to argue that difference was due to Zoubek?

I think everyone agrees that Brian Zoubek was an important part of the 2010 championship, but your repeated assertion that he was the "key piece" is just plain silly.


You're understating the importance of Kyrie Irving, IMO. He was a transcendent player. Coach K even stated that he was revamping the entire way Duke was going to play that season to take advantage of Kyrie's unique and surpassing talents. And he did. At the time of Kyrie's injury, we weren't just the best team in the country. We were clearly the best team, to the point that sober and thoughtful basketball people were talking openly about Duke going undefeated that season. Despite the gigantic disruption to the team's chemistry caused by his absence, Duke still was one of the top teams in the country, earning a #1 seed in the tournament, and only falling because of Derrick Williams having a career half of basketball and Arizona's other guys having everything they threw up go in in the second half. Oh, and Kyrie did score 28 points in that game.

I know I'm preaching to the choir on this one, but the ludicrous nature of Greybeard's assertion that the 2011 team "went relatively nowhere," with the implication being they weren't very good, without any acknowledgement of the impact of the loss of the best player in the country for almost the entire season, is exceeded only by the silliness of his contention that the 2011 team's falling short was due in any way, shape, or form to the absence of Brian Zoubek.

77devil
12-26-2013, 02:41 PM
You're understating the importance of Kyrie Irving, IMO. He was a transcendent player. Coach K even stated that he was revamping the entire way Duke was going to play that season to take advantage of Kyrie's unique and surpassing talents. And he did. At the time of Kyrie's injury, we weren't just the best team in the country. We were clearly the best team, to the point that sober and thoughtful basketball people were talking openly about Duke going undefeated that season. Despite the gigantic disruption to the team's chemistry caused by his absence, Duke still was one of the top teams in the country, earning a #1 seed in the tournament, and only falling because of Derrick Williams having a career half of basketball and Arizona's other guys having everything they threw up go in in the second half. Oh, and Kyrie did score 28 points in that game.

I know I'm preaching to the choir on this one, but the ludicrous nature of Greybeard's assertion that the 2011 team "went relatively nowhere," with the implication being they weren't very good, without any acknowledgement of the impact of the loss of the best player in the country for almost the entire season, is exceeded only by the silliness of his contention that the 2011 team's falling short was due in any way, shape, or form to the absence of Brian Zoubek.

For some of us who have witnessed Greybeard's sometimes bewildering posts going as far back as the Sagamartha board, it is simply better not to respond and reduce the clutter. I'm never sure whether it's trolling (I think he's a closet Terp) or just oddness, but rarely do his posts truly advance the conversation IMHO. I've probably crossed the line with this commentary, but that's how I see it.

greybeard
12-26-2013, 04:21 PM
Come on, greybeard. Even you must realize what a ridiculous statement this is. But in case you really don't:

(a) The 2010 team had three starters that didn't come back the following season, two of whom played significantly more minutes than Brian Zoubek;

(b) The 2011 team lost arguably its most important player for almost three-quarters of the season;

(c) Despite the aforementioned injury to Kyrie Irving, the 2011 team had a better record than the 2010 team (30-4 vs. 29-5) going into the NCAAT;

(d) If LaceDarius Dunn of Baylor had hit 83% of his three-pointers against Duke in 2010 the way Derrick Williams did against Duke in 2011, the 2010 team would have gone just as "relatively nowhere" as the 2011 team. Do you intend to argue that difference was due to Zoubek?

I think everyone agrees that Brian Zoubek was an important part of the 2010 championship, but your repeated assertion that he was the "key piece" is just plain silly.

Kyrie never really played for Duke; his presence in the last game of the season was the only thing that stopped Nolan Smith all season. Kyrie had 28; how many did Nolan have? Personally, I think that Duke played poorly because of Kyrie's presence in that game; not the other way around. Curry, Kyrie's replacement, averaged 17 points per game on 57% shooting; how did he do in that last game? And, how many seasons has Kyrie lasted without serious injury.

Kyrie is irrelevant to this discussion. A straw man at best.

The Plumlees played what most here say was the same screen game that most of you say that Z did. How'd that work out. See a lot of open 3s come from off ball screens. Oops, were there off ball screens, and, if so, how well did Singler do coming off them?

Scheyer was a loss, but Curry was by far the better shooter/scorer; in fact, he had a stunning season. Kelly, who was nowhere to be found the previous year, had a real impact during the 2011 season. I should think that, comparing a 2011 Kelly and a 2010 Lance, no would be angry if you called it a wash. Also, I think somebody besides me would have to agree that Mason and Miles had far better seasons in 2011 than 2010. The game changer was Zoubek. He played a game that was extremely effective in the ways I have described that gave Duke an edge, a significant one, over everyone they played.

I don't even know what to say about your references to a guy I have never heard of and Derrick Williams.

Every guy on the Championship team who got meaningful minutes made a real contribution to the Championship season, actually, probably every guy on the team. Without Singler, Scheyer and Smith, any of the three of them, there is no shot at a championship. However, they, along with the rest of the very talented Duke team that year (you play Miles, Mason, Lance, two of them first rounders and the other a walk on pro more minutes), you still have no Championship, imo, not even close. You play Kelly some of those minutes, the same. The key ingredient that made that team different, better than a number of Duke teams in the last say 7 years, was the way they played with Brian on the court. That made that team special.

Your opinion seems to rest on gossamer--we had a team that had Kyrie Irving on it only he couldn't play almost the entire season and Duke lost the one meaningful game that Kyrie did play, that would be Duke's last of the season, and so Kyrie made the 2011 team better than the 2010 team even though the 2010 team won it all and the 2011 team didn't. Breathtaking.

uh_no
12-26-2013, 04:28 PM
Kyrie is irrelevant to this discussion. A straw man at best.


To be fair, greybeard, you were the one who pulled out the championship and the relevance of Zoubek as somehow countering arguments that TT will not be a big piece on the floor come march... (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?32653-MBB-Duke-80-UCLA-63-Post-Game-Thread&p=689309#post689309)

this thread is full of more straw men than the kingdom of oz in a parallel universe where everyone reproduces like tribbles....

now I'm lost, how does this all relate to our win over UCLA last week?

timmy c
12-26-2013, 04:35 PM
For some of us who have witnessed Greybeard's sometimes bewildering posts going as far back as the Sagamartha board, it is simply better not to respond and reduce the clutter. I'm never sure whether it's trolling (I think he's a closet Terp) or just oddness, but rarely do his posts truly advance the conversation IMHO. I've probably crossed the line with this commentary, but that's how I see it.

May I recommend you do what I have done -- add him to your ignore list.

greybeard
12-26-2013, 05:09 PM
this team will be at it's best when Sheed's playing more minutes than Thornton.

Point well taken but better made without reference to T. When S is right, he belongs on the court. This year "right" is different than last year, and he showed in my opinion more discernment this last game than he has previously. Discernment with the ball I think is a key ingredient of "right" this year, understanding offensive priorities and facilitating them. I think that K expects to see much more of that. I hope S produces.

Oh, T, did I say that I think that he is a mensch, that his play leads, demands, demands DUKE. Need more be said? Will less do? My answer to both is the same.

Skitzle
12-26-2013, 06:32 PM
this team will be at it's best when Sheed's playing more minutes than Thornton.

Point well taken but better made without reference to T. When S is right, he belongs on the court. This year "right" is different than last year, and he showed in my opinion more discernment this last game than he has previously. Discernment with the ball I think is a key ingredient of "right" this year, understanding offensive priorities and facilitating them. I think that K expects to see much more of that. I hope S produces.

Oh, T, did I say that I think that he is a mensch, that his play leads, demands, demands DUKE. Need more be said? Will less do? My answer to both is the same.

People will always disagree with opinions on what the rotation should be like. (See Pocius, Martynas)

But I think you overestimate how many people on the board disagree with you. From reading this thread it seems like the majority of the board see the 2 guard rotation as follows:

The ideal scenario in order of minutes played
1) Sheed - getting most minutes means he has improved and learned to adapt to this team. He is better physically than Thornton at most aspects of the game. Mentally Thornton has him beat
2) Thornton - most likely the starter for the rest of the season, leader on and off the floor. He'll be in the game when Duke is lacking mental toughness. His contributions won't be shown in the box score. (His revolution will not be televised.)
3) Dawkins - He's started to learn how to put the ball on the floor, but still makes defensive mistakes. This is the reason he is third on this list. That said, when Duke needs instant offense, enter Dawkins. He could have the 4th or 5th best avg ppg on the team with the 8th most minutes. He'll get some extra minutes at the 3 when Hood sits, and would see even more time with further improvements to his D. For now I think when Hood is resting, K prefers to play -Cook, Thornton, Sheed- to -Cook, Thornton/Sheed, Dawkins-
4) Matt Jones - We all have liked what we've seen from Jones, but I just don't think he's going to get the time on the court this year. His two minutes against UCLA weren't spectacular. He needs more development time, but he's going to be fun to have around.

I think the people on this board, BY AND LARGE, see the scenario mentioned above as the most likely outcome (you included!). The only people suggesting otherwise appear to be the Matt Jones mega fan boys. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Jones too. I love what we've seen of him, but being realistic: he is the 4th best 2 guard on this team.

Him moving up the list happens two ways.
1) he plays 10x better than he has been. Somewhere some light of potential turns on and he never misses a shot or a defensive matchup. It's not impossible it is unlikely.
2) Sheed doesn't continue to progress (AKA the UCLA game was a fluke rather than a light switch getting turned on). In that case the top spot in 2 guard minutes definitely goes to Thornton. Matt Jones would get more minutes because he is a better defender than Dawkins, but still loses minutes to Dawkins because Dre is the better shooter. That said, Jones potential on the court right now isn't as high as Sheed's potential, and in this situation Duke wouldn't be playing its best potential team.

greybeard
12-26-2013, 08:27 PM
People will always disagree with opinions on what the rotation should be like. (See Pocius, Martynas)

But I think you overestimate how many people on the board disagree with you. From reading this thread it seems like the majority of the board see the 2 guard rotation as follows:

The ideal scenario in order of minutes played
1) Sheed - getting most minutes means he has improved and learned to adapt to this team. He is better physically than Thornton at most aspects of the game. Mentally Thornton has him beat
2) Thornton - most likely the starter for the rest of the season, leader on and off the floor. He'll be in the game when Duke is lacking mental toughness. His contributions won't be shown in the box score. (His revolution will not be televised.)
3) Dawkins - He's started to learn how to put the ball on the floor, but still makes defensive mistakes. This is the reason he is third on this list. That said, when Duke needs instant offense, enter Dawkins. He could have the 4th or 5th best avg ppg on the team with the 8th most minutes. He'll get some extra minutes at the 3 when Hood sits, and would see even more time with further improvements to his D. For now I think when Hood is resting, K prefers to play -Cook, Thornton, Sheed- to -Cook, Thornton/Sheed, Dawkins-
4) Matt Jones - We all have liked what we've seen from Jones, but I just don't think he's going to get the time on the court this year. His two minutes against UCLA weren't spectacular. He needs more development time, but he's going to be fun to have around.

I think the people on this board, BY AND LARGE, see the scenario mentioned above as the most likely outcome (you included!). The only people suggesting otherwise appear to be the Matt Jones mega fan boys. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Jones too. I love what we've seen of him, but being realistic: he is the 4th best 2 guard on this team.

Him moving up the list happens two ways.
1) he plays 10x better than he has been. Somewhere some light of potential turns on and he never misses a shot or a defensive matchup. It's not impossible it is unlikely.
2) Sheed doesn't continue to progress (AKA the UCLA game was a fluke rather than a light switch getting turned on). In that case the top spot in 2 guard minutes definitely goes to Thornton. Matt Jones would get more minutes because he is a better defender than Dawkins, but still loses minutes to Dawkins because Dre is the better shooter. That said, Jones potential on the court right now isn't as high as Sheed's potential, and in this situation Duke wouldn't be playing its best potential team.

This is really good, much more detail than I could even attempt to supply. A little disagreement around the edges, especially as regards S's development. My previous use of the terms"discernment" and "ingredients" purposefully. Duke is playing a terrific up tempo game. Cook might be as good as Duke has had, except for some loose moments. He could use to play less minutes, if possible, and lo\sing him to fouls, or I shouldn't even say it, injury is a possibility. S, to the extent he continues to grow his ability to play with more discernment, to see and explore with changes in tempo, no where to go, UNTIL, and continues to grow his ability to blend, to put a dash of this, a dash of that, let it simmer, you know, feel/see/taste the mix of ingredients that comprise his floor game, can be the guy who can supply up-tempo point play if K wants or it from someone other than Cook. Growing in the ways I just mentioned, will make S. much more mature and well rounded a player/contributor, whether he plays the point or not. If I did not see these abilities in him I would not be suggesting that this is something that K might be nurturing. Cook has what I am talking about and more to the 9s. Whether a guy like S. who has shown tinges can develop these qualities to really meaningful dimension I could only guess. The extent to which he shows more of this in his play, in my opinion, will be very interesting to watch; if he moves in the "right" direction, you'll see or sense it.

A, on the other hand, I see as having had such a gift that he put his attention mostly there. You develop facility based upon what attracts and what you take to. A has a beautiful shooting game and has added an off-the-bounce aspect to his offense that is nothing to sneeze at. The type of things that I have been talking about, frankly I have not seen enough of his play, but I think that those are perspectives that did not get much nurture during his early development, and might detract from his overall game. But, he is not a kid anymore, he is a man out there, plays tough, is strong and alert and focused. Can he see and feel more of the game, relax into it;? You don't get your shot off in as many ways that are so lethal as he does without seeing the game. If he only broadened his gaze. Okay, I'll stop. A wants on the court, belongs on the court, and is going to hurt people most every time he gets there. He will make his mark on this season, and it will not be small. He softens his senses, takes in a little more, the time he gets to make that mark might grow. Who knows, he might be my next Zman.

Troublemaker
12-26-2013, 09:44 PM
Had previously posted a "Rasheed's back" article. Here's the "Amile's back" version: http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/12/24/rising-star-duke-forward-amile-jefferson/

Very short article. All the interesting excerpts are below, I think:


For a stretch earlier this season, Jefferson was not playing up to his potential. “I was at a point where I really couldn’t do any worse,” he said after last Thursday’s win over UCLA. “So I talked to myself and said, ‘Just play.’ I [had been] overthinking it when I was out there. I was too conservative. Now I’m giving it all I’ve got and I feel like I’ve been playing a lot better.”

Sounds like Sheed and Amile were both up in their heads for awhile. Many slumps are mental.


His favorite thing to do on the court is crash the offensive glass and kick the ball out to a shooter for an open three, something the Duke coaching staff stresses. “Those can be backbreakers,” Jefferson said.

Amile's really improved his rebounding since Kansas (as Kedsy had previously noted). If Amile can be a consistent force on the offensive boards while playing 25mpg, it will go a long way towards helping Duke become the top offense in the country. When you look at Duke's team page on kenpom, all our offensive categories are lit up green, with the only red exception being offensive rebounding. If we can capture some ground in that area, and get the scoring we should be getting from the 2 and 5 positions, Duke can become over-the-top great offensively.


Parker credits Jefferson for his own development this season, on and off the court: “He’s a guy who likes to drive and has a lot of moves. He’s not your typical big man,” Parker said in reference to the challenges of guarding Jefferson.

Amile went through a stretch recently where he wasn't scoring too much because he was focused on defense and rebounding, but he has the talent to score around 10ppg for this team, imo. I want to see him put it all together -- scoring, rebounding, defense.

greybeard
12-26-2013, 11:14 PM
I said this in the UCLA MOTG thread:

Cook might be the best point guard in college basketball, some improvident plays notwithstanding. . . . That said I go with Jefferson. Let's just say that I've seen what lots of you have been talking about. He is that guy who you might tend to forget about but wind up being oh so sorry in the morning if you do. Made a number of really nice plays you don't think can be made. . . . Makes Duke better. (numerous edits not noted)

CDu
12-27-2013, 11:55 AM
Kyrie never really played for Duke; his presence in the last game of the season was the only thing that stopped Nolan Smith all season. Kyrie had 28; how many did Nolan have? Personally, I think that Duke played poorly because of Kyrie's presence in that game; not the other way around. Curry, Kyrie's replacement, averaged 17 points per game on 57% shooting; how did he do in that last game? And, how many seasons has Kyrie lasted without serious injury.

Kyrie is irrelevant to this discussion. A straw man at best.

Well, first of all, Curry did not average 17ppg on 57% shooting. He averaged 9ppg on 42% shooting. I'm not sure where you got 57% shooting - Curry never averaged over 46.5% shooting. His senior year he averaged 17 ppg and 46.5% shooting. But that was 2 years later than the year in question.

But the bigger point you've missed is that the team developed its identity with Irving. From summer workouts through the first practice until early December, the team developed its identity with Irving running the show. That's several months' worth of work thrown down the drain with the injury in early December. He didn't return until the NCAA tournament. So Duke spent the next 3+ months trying to develop a new identity from scratch. And they did a darn good job if it, too. They went 22-4 during that stretch, won the ACC tournament, and earned a #1 seed.

Then Irving returned, which threw the team's new identity for a loop. They again had to try to find chemistry, but now they were doing it against teams in a one-and-done situation. And in spite of all that, it took an otherworldly shooting effort by Williams and Arizona to beat us.


The Plumlees played what most here say was the same screen game that most of you say that Z did. How'd that work out. See a lot of open 3s come from off ball screens. Oops, were there off ball screens, and, if so, how well did Singler do coming off them?

Worked pretty well, actually. We shot 37.4% from 3pt range (not far off the 38.7% in 2010). Our offensive efficicency was 117.7, just a shade off of that in 2010 (120.0).


Scheyer was a loss, but Curry was by far the better shooter/scorer; in fact, he had a stunning season.

No, Curry didn't. He averaged 9 ppg. Hardly stunning. Certainly nowhere near good enough to offset the loss of Scheyer.


Kelly, who was nowhere to be found the previous year, had a real impact during the 2011 season. I should think that, comparing a 2011 Kelly and a 2010 Lance, no would be angry if you called it a wash.

I would be quite angry with that assertion actually. Thomas was a FAR FAR FAR better defensive player than sophomore year Kelly. More importantly, Thomas's defensive versatility was a huge part of the 2010 team's success. Kelly was not a very good defender yet as a sophomore. In fact, Thomas's absence was probably the biggest reason why we lost to Arizona in 2011. We didn't have anyone capable of guarding their extremely-athletic, hot-shooting PF. That was Thomas's bread and butter. I'm not saying Thomas would have completely shut down Williams, but I think he would have done enough that they wouldn't have been in the game at the end of the first half.


I don't even know what to say about your references to a guy I have never heard of and Derrick Williams.

Lacedarius Dunn was one of Baylor's leading scorers in 2010. He averaged over 14 ppg and shot 42% from 3pt range. In the game against us, he had a tough night shooting the 3. Kedsy's point was that if Dunn goes 6-8 from 3 instead of 2-8, we likely lose to Baylor in the Elite-8 in 2010. Conversely, if Derrick Williams doesn't have the first half of his career (hitting 5 3s in the first half; he went 1-6 from 3 the next game against UConn), we have probably a 15-point lead going into the second half (instead of 6). With that cushion, I suspect we go on to win that game. Who knows what happens from there.

The point, which you apparently missed, is that when talking about 6 elimination games, there is a HUGE amount of luck that goes into winning it all. The 2010 team was very good but also pretty darn lucky in some of their games. The 2011 team was very good but pretty darn unlucky in one game. And that one unlucky game masks what was otherwise a pretty similar season to the 2010 season.


Every guy on the Championship team who got meaningful minutes made a real contribution to the Championship season, actually, probably every guy on the team. Without Singler, Scheyer and Smith, any of the three of them, there is no shot at a championship. However, they, along with the rest of the very talented Duke team that year (you play Miles, Mason, Lance, two of them first rounders and the other a walk on pro more minutes), you still have no Championship, imo, not even close. You play Kelly some of those minutes, the same. The key ingredient that made that team different, better than a number of Duke teams in the last say 7 years, was the way they played with Brian on the court. That made that team special.

And here you even allude to what we've been trying to tell you. EVERYONE on the 2010 team was critical to the 2010 team's success. Take Zoubek off that team, and we don't win it. That much is true. But that can be said of ANY of the key regulars. Take Scheyer off that team? We're lucky to be a 3-seed. Take Singler off that team? Same story. Take Thomas off that team? Anyone with an athletic PF would go nuts on us. As noted above, I would argue that if we had Thomas on the 2011 team, we probably beat Arizona. Take Smith off that 2010 team? I'd hate to think about it.

The error in your argument is this: Zoubek was not THE reason we won the title in 2010. He was A reason. He was certainly critical to the team's success that year, but he was no more the reason we won than any other member of the starting lineup.

But at a simpler level, your argument that Zoubek is why we won in 2010 and didn't in 2011 is just silly. As Kedsy said: the losses of Scheyer and Thomas were just as big as the loss of Zoubek; the midseason loss of Irving threw the team for a loop, and the NCAA tourney return of Irving again threw the team for a loop; and we had the misfortune of catching Arizona on a night when Derrick Williams couldn't miss.

But that 2011 team went 32-5 overall, 13-3 in conference, and won the ACC tournament. The 2010 team went 35-5 overall, 13-3 in conference, and onw the ACC tournament. We had nearly identical efficiencies offensively and defensively. We just had the misfortune of catching the wrong team on the wrong night in 2011, something that thankfully didn't happen in 2010. And Zoubek wouldn't have done a thing to stop Williams of Arizona, so his absence is quite clearly NOT the reason that we didn't win the title in 2011.

greybeard
12-28-2013, 09:44 AM
Bringing the 2011 team into this was foolish. Defending with ever increasing adamancy deserved what it got. Everything written was exceptional. CDu's last piece, masterful.

Henderson
12-28-2013, 03:23 PM
Kyrie never really played for Duke.


Exactly. I hate when people fake this stuff with computer animation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFVj_aQ4h98

Even worse when they fake stats: http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/duke/kyrie-irving

And when the player himself is complicit in pretending to have played for a school, I don't know what to say: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/04/18/2832060/nba-star-kyrie-irving-im-a-dukie.html

Plus, when Coach K goes on national radio to say that Kyrie will "be associated with Duke and our program forever", you know the contention that he played for Duke is a sham. http://nesn.com/2013/12/mike-krzyzewski-says-theres-a-minimal-chance-jabari-parker-stays-at-duke-for-sophomore-season/

See? Kyrie never really played for Duke.

greybeard
12-28-2013, 05:57 PM
Exactly. I hate when people fake this stuff with computer animation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFVj_aQ4h98

Even worse when they fake stats: http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/duke/kyrie-irving

And when the player himself is complicit in pretending to have played for a school, I don't know what to say: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/04/18/2832060/nba-star-kyrie-irving-im-a-dukie.html

Plus, when Coach K goes on national radio to say that Kyrie will "be associated with Duke and our program forever", you know the contention that he played for Duke is a sham. http://nesn.com/2013/12/mike-krzyzewski-says-theres-a-minimal-chance-jabari-parker-stays-at-duke-for-sophomore-season/

See? Kyrie never really played for Duke.

11 games, 10 at the very beginning of the season? My point, he wasn't a meaningful component of Duke's season. Poetic license, easily understood, and read well. It stays where it stays, as do you.