Andre 3000/3

[cato]

After reading the note in today's recap of the Gardner-Webb game that Dawkins has 829 points, I checked to see whether he is on track to hit 1,000 career points.

With a minimum of 23 games left, Dre needs to hit 7.5 points a game to pass 1,000. He is currently averaging 8.6/game this year, which is consistent with his Junior and Soph averages of 8.4 and 8.1.

Obviously, Andre is in a battle for playing time, but he has been playing well, and getting praise from his coaches and teammates. 1,000 points seems doable, which would be a nice individual accomplishment to go along with his team hardware.

[MarkD83]

So 7.5/game means five 3's every 2 games. No problem........

[Olympic Fan]

Duke has had 62 1,000 point scorers, the third highest in NCAA history.

Only Louisville (67) and UNC (66) have more. Kentucky is fourth at 60.

It's interesting that with one-and-done, Kentucky is not much of a threat to catch us. Of course, with Jabari and Rodney potential one-and-dones, they might not get there either. Nobody does it in one year (well, to be fair, Pete Maravich did) -- only a handful of guys do it in two.

Quinn Cook should do it late this year ... he came into the season with 567 career points. With 147 points so far this year, he's now at 714. That leaves him 286 to go. In those minimum 23 games to go, he has to average 12.0 ppg. He's averaging 14.7 at the moment.

So, barring injury or a major slump, Duke could get it's total of 1,000-point scorers to 64 after this season. In fact, it could turn into an interesting race to see who gets their first -- Andre or Quinn.

Note: Sulaimon entered the season with an outside chance to get to 1,000 this year. He had 416 points as a freshman. But with his slow start, that's now nearly impossible ... he's still at 473 ... he would have to average 23-plus for 1,000 this year. Not going to happen ... maybe next year.

[Cameron]

What else is there to say about Andre Dawkins at this point other than that he's simply one of the greatest spurt scorers to ever play at Duke. And he's accomplished that, largely, as a spot player, whose minutes have really fluctuated over the course of his career. Unlike other players who've possessed that same type of trademark score-in-bunches talent, such as Jason Williams or J.J. Redick, Andre has never had the luxury of playing starter's minutes on a regular basis and is typically afforded extraordinarily short amounts of time in which to work within a game to make the kind of significant impact he often does. When the conditions are right, he can level the opposing team as abruptly as a straight-line wind.

Andre has taken that scoring efficiency to a new level this season. In just 12.4 minutes per game this year, almost 10 minutes less than he averaged as either a sophomore or junior, Andre's averaging a career high in scoring at 8.6 points a game and shooting a career-best 48% from beyond the arc (18-for-37). Look at some of the totals he has registered this year in relation to minutes played. It's sensational stuff.

17 PTS (5-of-8 threes) in 19 MINS vs. Florida Atlantic
13 PTS (3-of-6 threes) in 18 MINS vs. UNC Asheville
16 PTS (3-of-9 threes) in 20 MINS vs. Vermont
8 PTS (2-of-2 threes) in 10 MINS vs. Michigan
18 PTS (4-of-8 threes) in 22 MINS vs. Gardner Webb

That averages out to 27 points and 6 three-pointers per 40 minutes. There is no other bench in America with that kind of offensive power waiting to check into the game. And Andre's not even our sixth man on most nights. He's typically the seventh guy to get into the game, and occasionally the eighth. I cannot remember a more potent offensive player in college basketball on any team ever that far down the rotation. The kid has just been amazing in his last season as a Blue Devil, and even moreso when considering he reportedly hardly touched a ball last year during his time off from the game. So glad to see Andre make the most of his last hurrah.

[nmduke2001]

I know that it is the longest of long shots, but I hope somehow Dre makes his way onto an NBA roster. Dre has one skill that he does about as good as anyone and that's shooting and the NBA has shown that guys like Craig Hodges can stick in the league because of that one skill.

I read an article about Hodges suing the NBA after no NBA team would sign him and he thought he was being blacklisted because he was outspoken against African-American athletes not helping the poor. Phil Jackson was interviewed and had this to say, "I found it strange that not a single team called to inquire about him. Usually, I get at least one call about a player we've decided not to sign. And yes, he couldn't play much defense, but a lot of guys in the league can't, but not many can shoot from his range, either."

That quote gives me hope for Dre.

[roywhite]

Andre can hit the 3-ball from a number of positions on the court and in different circumstances, but I absolutely love:

From the top of the key after a hand-off
From the deep corner (that shot, or even the threat of it, can really shift a defense and allow others more room)

Andre definitely seems to be on track to be a significant contributor, a game changer. After his year off, I don't think we could have asked for a much better return than what we've seen so far.

[superdave]

Andre is ranked #53 among seniors by DraftExpress.
http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/NCAA-Seniors/

He does not make it into Chad Ford's top 100 prospects list.

But he does have one elite skill and his athleticism is above average. Andre will get a tryout or two, particularly if he keeps up his current pace.

[Kedsy]

Andre is ranked #53 among seniors by DraftExpress.
http://www.draftexpress.com/rankings/NCAA-Seniors/

He does not make it into Chad Ford's top 100 prospects list.

But he does have one elite skill and his athleticism is above average. Andre will get a tryout or two, particularly if he keeps up his current pace.

If he continues to shoot like he's shooting and play decent minutes, his draft stock will go up. He's got good enough size and someone who needs a shooting specialist could grab him in the second round.

[flyingdutchdevil]

If he continues to shoot like he's shooting and play decent minutes, his draft stock will go up. He's got good enough size and someone who needs a shooting specialist could grab him in the second round.

Absolutely. Andre will be a one-trick pony in the NBA (even moreso than he is now), but that one-trick is insanely valuable. Check out Zach Lowe's latest post: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10148890/the-reliance-3-pointer-whether-not-hurting-nba

SIDENOTE: At the bottom, in Zach's "10 Things I Like and Dislike," check out this blurb about Miles:


Eric Bledsoe still has turnover issues and his defense has slipped a tad under a larger scoring burden, but the dude is a beast. Miles Plumlee is hurting basketballs with his shot blocks, the Morris twins are making tough shots, and Channing Frye's shooting is forcing defenses into all sorts of painful contortions.

[ChillinDuke]

Bump.

After 3 pts against UCLA and 20 against EMU, Andre now has 852 career points at Duke.

With 21 definite games remaining on the schedule (and hopefully many more than this), he needs to average 7.0 ppg to eclipse 1K. He is currently averaging 9.1 per game.

I'd also like to point out that Andre has shot 25 for 52 on 3s this year for a ridiculous (redick-ulous?) 48.1%. "Oh My Goodness!" - Verne Lundquist

- Chillin

[Bob Green]

I'd also like to point out that Andre has shot 25 for 52 on 3s this year for a ridiculous (redick-ulous?) 48.1%.

- Chillin

Which is good enough for second in the ACC behind Trevor Cooney who is shooting 50.6% (41-81).

[Kedsy]

Which is good enough for second in the ACC behind Trevor Cooney who is shooting 50.6% (41-81).

Andre's also second in the ACC (also behind Cooney) in oRating, with 138.3. Not only that, but if Andre had enough shot attempts to qualify, he'd be leading the ACC in both eFG% (71.7%) and true shooting pct (73.3%).

[Bob Green]

Andre's also second in the ACC (also behind Cooney) in oRating, with 138.3. Not only that, but if Andre had enough shot attempts to qualify, he'd be leading the ACC in both eFG% (71.7%) and true shooting pct (73.3%).

I've always been a huge Dawkins fan so I'm really excited about how he has been playing and looking forward to watching him continue to develop over the course of the season. If teams continue to utilize a zone to defend us, Dawkins is going to be a key option off the bench. Exciting times...

[dukelifer]

After reading the note in today's recap of the Gardner-Webb game that Dawkins has 829 points, I checked to see whether he is on track to hit 1,000 career points.

With a minimum of 23 games left, Dre needs to hit 7.5 points a game to pass 1,000. He is currently averaging 8.6/game this year, which is consistent with his Junior and Soph averages of 8.4 and 8.1.

Obviously, Andre is in a battle for playing time, but he has been playing well, and getting praise from his coaches and teammates. 1,000 points seems doable, which would be a nice individual accomplishment to go along with his team hardware.
It is so great to see Andre having fun again on a basketball court. He is relaxed on the court and knows his role. I expect he will get a lot of playing time in home games. Duke's O needs an elite shooter. I thought that Jones might be that guy but his shot is not falling and has not been able to fix his mechanics as of yet. Andre has a ton of confidence in his shot.

He could make an NBA roster but if not- he will get a chance to play overseas. But right now Andre is enjoying being the old man. Quite a change for someone who was the baby on the team that won it all.

[chaosmage]

The wife was watching parts of the game yesterday, and she pointed out that she's seen Andre smile more this season than ever, excepting those huge shots on the way to the 2010 title. It was just good to see him that happy again. Whatever team he lands on (hopefully the Lakers or the Horncats), we'll be pulling for him.

Go Andre, and Go Duke!

[g-money]

Absolutely. Andre will be a one-trick pony in the NBA (even moreso than he is now), but that one-trick is insanely valuable. Check out Zach Lowe's latest post: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/10148890/the-reliance-3-pointer-whether-not-hurting-nba

Good stuff. What I notice about Andre's shot (aside from great elevation and perfect form :)) is the appearance of effortlessness. I honestly don't think his shooting percentage will drop that much when he moves back to the pro three point line.

If Andre can convince scouts that he won't be a complete liability on defense, he has a great chance to make an NBA roster next season. If I'm him, I'm doing everything I can to improve my defensive positioning and lateral mobility over the next 3 months.

[JasonEvans]

I can't believe no one else has already mentioned this but the proper pro comparison for Andre is, of course, Anthony Morrow. Dude is nothing but an outside shooter and is capable of just going ridiculously hot at times. He has made $14 mil+ in his NBA career without playing a lick of defense or being much of a passer. They are even the same height and weight (6-5, 210ish).

-Jason "there are few things this season that bring a smile to my face as much as watching Andre succeed. He deserves nothing but good stuff for a long time" Evans

[CatDevil]

3767

Nice to see Andre receiving recognition at the end of the game. First time I have seen him play up close and he was impressive!

[SupaDave]

I can't believe no one else has already mentioned this but the proper pro comparison for Andre is, of course, Anthony Morrow. Dude is nothing but an outside shooter and is capable of just going ridiculously hot at times. He has made $14 mil+ in his NBA career without playing a lick of defense or being much of a passer. They are even the same height and weight (6-5, 210ish).

-Jason "there are few things this season that bring a smile to my face as much as watching Andre succeed. He deserves nothing but good stuff for a long time" Evans

Funny you mention this b/c not only have I played against Morrow, but when he went pro and went insane the first few weeks - me and all the guys in the Ga Tech gym were like - REALLY? The difference between Morrow and Dawkins is that Hewitt had not even remotely tried to display Morrow's shooting skills during his time at Tech (he of course obliterated us in pick-up games). If that's all Dre has to compete with then I can PROMISE you - he's seeing the NBA.

[Troublemaker]

Article about Andre's maturity this season: http://m.fayobserver.com/sports/article_fd8ea4c6-205a-5ed7-a3e6-42a0d0244cb4.html?mode=jqm



Dawkins often followed a good game with a poor one during his first three seasons, with the most notable exception being a four-day stretch in which he hit five 3-pointers at Clemson and made seven against Wake Forest as a junior.

After the victory against Elon, Krzyzewski summed up the message he had delivered to Dawkins the previous day.

"The M.O. of the old Andre would be not to do anything (Tuesday)," Krzyzewski said.



He admitted that, earlier in his career, he became complacent after good games and didn't feel a need to put in as much extra work outside of practice.

Dawkins has changed his approach as a senior. He'll text a coach or manager to find someone who will join him in the gym, a sign of both commitment and maturity.

"Whether it be in the morning, whether it be at night," Dawkins said, "I'm just trying to get in the gym to get some extra shots in to keep that feeling going."



He went 4-for-4 from 3-point range in the opening 13 minutes against Elon, and the Phoenix trailed 26-9 because it had made only three of its 14 field goals. Dawkins was so effective running off screens or taking handoffs from Duke's big men that Elon coach Matt Matheny, a staunch advocate of man-to-man defense, resorted to a Plan B.

"As crazy as it seems, he made a couple and we went to zone, which is kind of counterintuitive, because we just tried to break his rhythm," Matheny said. "That was our only hope."

[Listen to Quants]

Article about Andre's maturity this season: http://m.fayobserver.com/sports/article_fd8ea4c6-205a-5ed7-a3e6-42a0d0244cb4.html?mode=jqm

Andre is almost following the JJ pattern. Not exactly, of course, but both are tremendous shooters who had a tendency to work less than needed. To my eye, Andre's release is now almost as quick as JJ's, perhaps as accurate, and he is more 'athletic.' I would luv to see Andre continue to follow the increasing-hard-work model that JJ apparently did and turn into .... well, I don't quite know what but it would be a delight to see.

[Des Esseintes]

Andre is almost following the JJ pattern. Not exactly, of course, but both are tremendous shooters who had a tendency to work less than needed. To my eye, Andre's release is now almost as quick as JJ's, perhaps as accurate, and he is more 'athletic.' I would luv to see Andre continue to follow the increasing-hard-work model that JJ apparently did and turn into .... well, I don't quite know what but it would be a delight to see.

It's easy to forget the full insanity that was JJ's senior year shooting. Andre is killing it right now. Guys are getting him the ball, and he's drilling threes as if they were layups. But JJ was often functioning as a primary ballhandler on a possession--dribbling with a man draped on him and then rising for a pull-up jumper. The degree of difficulty on such a shot is waaay higher than a catch-and-shoot three. JJ had a paucity of offensive talent around him such that he had to make his opportunities for himself. That he managed an elite three percentage under those circumstances is completely extraordinary and basically unrivaled in the last decade of college basketball. While Andre and JJ might be comparable on catch-and-shoot attempts--might--JJ was the far, far more valuable deep threat due to his handle and pull-up abilities.

Andre is much closer to the Anthony Morrow model others have mentioned. Anthony Morrow makes millions of dollars at his job, so that's not a bad thing.

[Listen to Quants]

It's easy to forget the full insanity that was JJ's senior year shooting. Andre is killing it right now. Guys are getting him the ball, and he's drilling threes as if they were layups. But JJ was often functioning as a primary ballhandler on a possession--dribbling with a man draped on him and then rising for a pull-up jumper. The degree of difficulty on such a shot is waaay higher than a catch-and-shoot three. JJ had a paucity of offensive talent around him such that he had to make his opportunities for himself. That he managed an elite three percentage under those circumstances is completely extraordinary and basically unrivaled in the last decade of college basketball. While Andre and JJ might be comparable on catch-and-shoot attempts--might--JJ was the far, far more valuable deep threat due to his handle and pull-up abilities.

Andre is much closer to the Anthony Morrow model others have mentioned. Anthony Morrow makes millions of dollars at his job, so that's not a bad thing.

Oh yeah. Agree totally on degree of difficulty of JJ's jr/sr accomplishments. I think of Potential-Andre-path as his being along about JJ's fresh/soph stage. JJ got better jr then sr year and much much better yet as a pro. A long path, but I can dream for Andre, eh?

[Des Esseintes]

Oh yeah. Agree totally on degree of difficulty of JJ's jr/sr accomplishments. I think of Potential-Andre-path as his being along about JJ's fresh/soph stage. JJ got better jr then sr year and much much better yet as a pro. A long path, but I can dream for Andre, eh?

That makes sense. And I will say that with the additions Andre as made to his game and the confidence with which he is playing, I've been impressed with his takes. With most guys, "contested 3" is far from ideal shot selection. But Andre's shooting tool is strong enough to succeed even with a hand in his face. He has taken some closely guarded, coming-off-a-curl j's, which are not as hard as pull-ups but still very hard, and nailed them. He has weapons now he didn't have two seasons ago, and it's fantastic. Hard to believe there are 360 more valuable skillsets in the NBA next season than that shot of his.

[Olympic Fan]

Moderators ... any chance of breaking off the Tyler Thornton debate into its own thread, so those of us who don't want to rehash this thing for the millionth time can avoid it?

This thread started as a look at Andre's run at 1,000 career points. Does everything have to turn into a Tyler Thornton love/hate fest? I mean, if people want to talk about it, fine ... but can't it be in its own thread so those of us who would rather talk about something else can avoid it?

[DukieInBrasil]

Moderators ... any chance of breaking off the Tyler Thornton debate into its own thread, so those of us who don't want to rehash this thing for the millionth time can avoid it?

This thread started as a look at Andre's run at 1,000 career points. Does everything have to turn into a Tyler Thornton love/hate fest? I mean, if people want to talk about it, fine ... but can't it be in its own thread so those of us who would rather talk about something else can avoid it?

not too long ago Andre needed to average ~7.5 ppg to get 1000 career points in the minimum possible games that Duke could play this year. With his increased scoring lately, he's at 867 now (169+298+285+115) and has 19 guaranteed games left and he'll need to average exactly 7ppg within that frame, if Duke plays (wins) the ACCT championship game and the NCAA championship game he'd only need to average 4.75ppg.
Of course if Andre scores a bunch more than that, i'd be ok with it. ;-)

[MarkD83]

not too long ago Andre needed to average ~7.5 ppg to get 1000 career points in the minimum possible games that Duke could play this year. With his increased scoring lately, he's at 867 now (169+298+285+115) and has 19 guaranteed games left and he'll need to average exactly 7ppg within that frame, if Duke plays (wins) the ACCT championship game and the NCAA championship game he'd only need to average 4.75ppg.Of course if Andre scores a bunch more than that, i'd be ok with it. ;-)

So he needs 7 three pointers every three games.

[Kedsy]

I thought of an interesting comp for Andre: John Jenkins of Vanderbilt. Jenkins was a great three-point shooter and prolific scorer for Vandy, he led the SEC in scoring twice, and was a third-team All American his senior year. But the difference between his stats and Andre's were mostly the number of minutes played. Here's a tempo-free and advanced stat comparison:



Player Pts40 Reb40 Ast40 Stl40 Blk40 TO40 3pt % 2pt % PER TS% eFG% DR% OR% Ast% Stl% Blk% TO% Usage Ortg DRtg WS/40
John Jenkins senior season 23.7 3.4 1.4 1.0 0.4 1.9 0.439 0.542 26.0 0.656 0.620 8.2 1.7 8.4 1.5 1.0 9.4 26.2 129.4 103.3 0.227
Andre Dawkins senior season 27.7 3.6 1.4 1.2 0.7 1.4 0.508 0.700 29.5 0.765 0.754 9.7 0.7 7.2 1.7 1.8 7.4 24.3 142.7 102.0 0.256


Andre's numbers are actually a little better, but assuming he'll drop some in conference and tournament games, the stats are remarkably similar.

Jenkins was drafted #23 (first round) in the 2012 draft. I have no idea how much stock NBA GMs put into counting stats (as opposed to tempo-free and advanced stats), but if Andre keeps up his current play, who knows what might happen?

[duke96]

One other Andre thought.

I have always believed that a key factor for each of our championship teams and most if not all of our K-era final four teams was having a player who was all of: (a) one of our most talented players; (b) a very experienced member of our team (perhaps defined as a senior or 3-year starter junior); and (c) in possssion of the leadership skills and will to win / intestinal fortitude to galvanize our team and help get us through the inevitable tough games in the tournament when our usual MO isn't hitting on all cylinders. (Which is not, of course, to say that all of our teams that did have such a player always got deep into the tournament.). Obviously having a player in this role has been more elusive over the last 15 years or so in the era where talented players dont all stay four years.

One thing I wonder about this year's team is who can play this type of role for us. Tyler and Josh have (b) and (c) in spades but not (a) in my view. I personally hope that Andre this year, with his renewed dedication to being team-oriented, hard work, and (hopefully) increased consistency can play a role like this for us and carry us through the inevitable tough times at some point down the road.

[Newton_14]

Moderators ... any chance of breaking off the Tyler Thornton debate into its own thread, so those of us who don't want to rehash this thing for the millionth time can avoid it?

This thread started as a look at Andre's run at 1,000 career points. Does everything have to turn into a Tyler Thornton love/hate fest? I mean, if people want to talk about it, fine ... but can't it be in its own thread so those of us who would rather talk about something else can avoid it?

Done. All of the Off Topic posts were removed. No need for a different thread as the same debate has been ongoing in multiple threads anyway. Apologies as I responded to a post that was complaining about TT/JH minutes and my response gave fuel to the fire. I have cleaned up my mess and only Andre related posts remain.

If everyone could keep this thread focused on Andre's chase to 1000 it would be appreciated. (myself included)

Thanks

[53n206]

Listening to L. Elmore about our Andrel: in that he says Andre must have an inside shot to be able to freely shoot from afar, makes me reflect on the famous lines of Richard Lovelace in
To Lucasta:

"I could not love thee half so much,
Love'd I not honour more."

to Andre:

His 3s would not be half as sweet,
Had he not made 2s too

[MCFinARL]

Andre now at 883 points, 117 to go. Worst case scenario--regular season games plus one ACC tournament game and no additional games--which would be a pretty bad case--he needs to average 6.9 points per game from here on out. With 5 post-season games (ACC and NCAA games in some combination) he needs to average 5.6 points per game.

[ChillinDuke]

Andre now at 883 points, 117 to go. Worst case scenario--regular season games plus one ACC tournament game and no additional games--which would be a pretty bad case--he needs to average 6.9 points per game from here on out. With 5 post-season games (ACC and NCAA games in some combination) he needs to average 5.6 points per game.

Just to point out - it's just about 100% assured that we would have an additional additional game in that we would make one of the three (are there more now?) postseason tournaments.

- Chillin

[ChillinDuke]

Andre now at 903 pts. So 97 left with 14 certain games remaining (15 ~certain games remaining).

Using 15 ~certain games (because I like to gamble), Andre needs 6.5ppg to break 1000. He's averaging 8.9 right now.

- Chillin

[MCFinARL]

Andre now at 903 pts. So 97 left with 14 certain games remaining (15 ~certain games remaining).

Using 15 ~certain games (because I like to gamble), Andre needs 6.5ppg to break 1000. He's averaging 8.9 right now.

- Chillin

As you pointed out above, though, that 15th game isn't much of a gamble. Hard to imagine a set of circumstances that wouldn't get Duke one post-ACC-tournament game in SOME tournament. Hope Andre can keep up his fairly consistent scoring numbers and hit this target.

Perhaps a bit off topic--it looks like Quinn Cook may hit 1000 points this year as well; he is currently at 802 and averaging 13.1 points per game, which would put him at 985 after 14 games. But we'll see.

[Dukehky]

I think Dre goes off for more than 20 tonight... Watch.

[Olympic Fan]

I think Dre goes off for more than 20 tonight... Watch.

If he does, Duke wins by double figures

[Dukehky]

If he does, Duke wins by double figures

That's actually what I think is going to happen tonight anyway, so that fits together nicely.

[Bob Green]

Another nice game shooting the basketball for Andre Dawkins against Florida State. He was 3-6 from the field (all 3-pointers) and 2-2 from the free throw line. On the season, Dawkins is 41-92 (44.5%) on 3-pointers and 23-26 (88.4%) on free throws. Eleven points raises his career total to 920 points with 11 games left in the regular season. I'd love to see Dawkins go over a 1000 on senior night against Carolina.

[Listen to Quants]

Another nice game shooting the basketball for Andre Dawkins against Florida State. He was 3-6 from the field (all 3-pointers) and 2-2 from the free throw line. On the season, Dawkins is 41-92 (44.5%) on 3-pointers and 23-26 (88.4%) on free throws. Eleven points raises his career total to 920 points with 11 games left in the regular season. I'd love to see Dawkins go over a 1000 on senior night against Carolina.
Or, against the 'Cuse.

[cato]

Eleven points raises his career total to 920 points with 11 games left in the regular season. I'd love to see Dawkins go over a 1000 on senior night against Carolina.

Dre's big night tonight certainly helps the cause. At this point, if he keeps to his average (and stays healthy!), he'll hit 1,000 right at the end of the regular season.

Frankly, if he's paying attention to that number at all, I hope he gets it at Wake, and then steam rolls Carolina without any statistical pressure at all.

[Son of Jarhead]

If his average holds (9.4 ppg so far this season), he should hit 1,000 during the Syracuse game at Cameron on 2/22. I love the way he is playing, his average has been going up. I have a feeling he may get to 1,000 before then.

Impressive stat shared by Bilas: Duke is 38-2 when Andre hits for double figure points.
:cool:

[gam7]

Impressive stat shared by Bilas: Duke is 38-2 when Andre hits for double figure points.
:cool:

Almost as impressive as Kelly. Duke was 41-1 in games in which Kelly scored in double figures during his career.

[Bob Green]

Impressive stat shared by Bilas: Duke is 38-2 when Andre hits for double figure points.
:cool:

I mentioned this in Section 21 Chat last night and it is worth repeating: Duke is a dangerous offensive team when Dawkins plays on the 1st team. Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins and Cook is our most offensively potent line-up. With the improvement demonstrated by Dawkins in his overall game, I expect he will see increased playing time down the stretch run.

[jv001]

I mentioned this in Section 21 Chat last night and it is worth repeating: Duke is a dangerous offensive team when Dawkins plays on the 1st team. Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins and Cook is our most offensively potent line-up. With the improvement demonstrated by Dawkins in his overall game, I expect he will see increased playing time down the stretch run.

I agree for the most part, but I would list it this way: Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins and Cook/Rasheed. These two players are both valuable in different ways. Cook the highest Assist/TO ratio, but Rasheed the better defender and not a bad assist man either. Of course you said offensively. GoDuke!

[Ichabod Drain]

3831

[MChambers]

I mentioned this in Section 21 Chat last night and it is worth repeating: Duke is a dangerous offensive team when Dawkins plays on the 1st team. Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins and Cook is our most offensively potent line-up. With the improvement demonstrated by Dawkins in his overall game, I expect he will see increased playing time down the stretch run.
I don't think we've seen that lineup much. Last night, and for the last few games, it seemed that Andre was mostly in for Rodney, or when we went small.

[Bob Green]

I don't think we've seen that lineup much. Last night, and for the last few games, it seemed that Andre was mostly in for Rodney, or when we went small.

While I agree with your observation that Dawkins typically subs for Hood, we did see the lineup some last night. Hood and Dawkins were on the court simultaneously, down the stretch, when Dawkins made his last couple of 3-pointers.

[MCFinARL]

While I agree with your observation that Dawkins typically subs for Hood, we did see the lineup some last night. Hood and Dawkins were on the court simultaneously, down the stretch, when Dawkins made his last couple of 3-pointers.

Yes--I think Dawkins came in for Jefferson, with Hood moving into Jefferson's spot. But it's possible all three of those players were on at the same time for a while as well--just watched the game again an hour ago and already can't remember. Sigh.....

[MChambers]

Yes--I think Dawkins came in for Jefferson, with Hood moving into Jefferson's spot. But it's possible all three of those players were on at the same time for a while as well--just watched the game again an hour ago and already can't remember. Sigh.....
Coach kept swapping Amile (for defense) and Andre (for offense).

My point was that I did not see the lineup Bob proposed: Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins, and Cook.

[Gthoma2a]

Coach kept swapping Amile (for defense) and Andre (for offense).

My point was that I did not see the lineup Bob proposed: Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins, and Cook.

I don't know, but whichever lineups had Dre in them were pretty effective on offense last night.

[MCFinARL]

I don't know, but whichever lineups had Dre in them were pretty effective on offense last night.

Yeah, 7-9 with 6-7 from 3-point range will do that. :)

[timmy c]

While I agree with your observation that Dawkins typically subs for Hood, we did see the lineup some last night. Hood and Dawkins were on the court simultaneously, down the stretch, when Dawkins made his last couple of 3-pointers.


Coach kept swapping Amile (for defense) and Andre (for offense).

My point was that I did not see the lineup Bob proposed: Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Dawkins, and Cook.

Bob's lineup did appear in the game. That group had the the third best +/- with +4.
http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=20075&bView=10

[SilkyJ]

With the improvement demonstrated by Dawkins in his overall game, I expect he will see increased playing time down the stretch run.

Have to take a bit of issue with the first half of the statement here, Bob. Andre is shooting lights out, but the improvement in his game has really just been his consistency. In the past he has arrived at his 8-9ppg average by having a 20 point game followed up by a 0 point game. In way less minutes (14mpg this year vs 20-22mpg during soph & junior years), Andre is averaging about the same number of points, but is doing it with consistent play and consistent shooting.

Andre has not, however, really improved his all around game and remains a minimal threat off the bounce. In fact, this year he is getting even MORE of his shots from beyond the 3 point line than in the past. This year 82% of his FGA are from 3 vs 74% in his JR year, 72% in is SO year, and 70% in his FR year. So my take is that Andre is just as reliant on his jumper as ever, but he has simply worked his way into being more focused game in and game out, which has led to greater consistency.

I'd also add that, at least according to my eye test, Andre still has plenty of defensive lapses. He has improved a touch on that end, but I think his defense is still whats keeping him from playing even more. I mean his scoring efficiency numbers are phenomenal right now--he's averaging 26 points/40min, 1.55 PPA, and an eFG% of 68%. To give some perspective:

Our Best Players Average
Jabari: 25pts/40, 1.33 PPA, eFG 51%
Rodney: 22pts/40, 1.54 PPA, eFG 60%

Dre's Competition for PT Averages
Sulaimon: 15pts/40, 1.39 PPA, eFG 48%
(Matt Jones' averages aren't worth posting)

Outlier
Amile: 14pts/40, 1.64 PPA, eFG 66%

Amile bests him in PPA as he doesnt take a shot outside 5 feet (not a bad thing!), but taken as a whole Andre appears to be our most effective scorer. So my take based on his effectiveness, my eye test, and the fact that Matt is starting and Sheed is playing more than him, is that his defense is keeping his minutes down. I hope he sees more time down the stretch, and I suspect he will...with Rodney's and Jabari's ability to get in the lane, Dre is the perfect complement outside, but we have to see some improvement on defense for that to happen.

[niveklaen]

^^I think that by Dawkin's overall game getting better he was referring to the fact that his rebounds, blocks, steals, and assists per minute had all gone up, not that he had added a drive to his arsenal

defense is still the weakness limiting his pt

[Kedsy]

Andre has not, however, really improved his all around game and remains a minimal threat off the bounce. In fact, this year he is getting even MORE of his shots from beyond the 3 point line than in the past. This year 82% of his FGA are from 3 vs 74% in his JR year, 72% in is SO year, and 70% in his FR year. So my take is that Andre is just as reliant on his jumper as ever, but he has simply worked his way into being more focused game in and game out, which has led to greater consistency.

I disagree. Anyone who shoots 48% from three-land should shoot as many open jumpers as he can get. That doesn't mean he can't drive. Andre has shown the occasional drive, including one yesterday (missed the short shot but tipped in his own miss). He takes a lot of threes because that's his role in Duke's offense -- with Jabari, Rodney, Quinn, and Rasheed around, there's not that much of a need for driving but there's always a need for shooting.


I'd also add that, at least according to my eye test, Andre still has plenty of defensive lapses. He has improved a touch on that end, but I think his defense is still whats keeping him from playing even more.

I agree that most games he has one or two defensive lapses, but I disagree that he's only improved "a touch" on defense. If you watch him on the defensive end, his positioning is much improved, his on-ball defense is much improved, and his overall defense is much improved.

What's keeping him back from playing more is we have a LOT of talented players on the team. That said, I've consistently been calling for him to get more minutes and I hope he can get up to the 18 to 22 minute range, though I'm not entirely certain from whom those extra minutes would come.

[Bob Green]

Have to take a bit of issue with the first half of the statement here, Bob. Andre is shooting lights out, but the improvement in his game has really just been his consistency.

Three responses:

1. Consistency is huge!
2. He shoots a lot of jumpers because he fully understands his role on the team, which speaks volumes on his maturity.
3. His defense is a lot better as he doesn't lose his man, switches better, provides help, etc...

Kedsy already stated points #2 and #3 better than I can.

I have no facts to back up my next statement so it is 100 percent speculation on my part; however, I suspect Dawkins is exerting himself in the locker room and in practice by setting the example. He is a 5th year senior and a national champion.

[Newton_14]

Have to take a bit of issue with the first half of the statement here, Bob. Andre is shooting lights out, but the improvement in his game has really just been his consistency. In the past he has arrived at his 8-9ppg average by having a 20 point game followed up by a 0 point game. In way less minutes (14mpg this year vs 20-22mpg during soph & junior years), Andre is averaging about the same number of points, but is doing it with consistent play and consistent shooting.

Andre has not, however, really improved his all around game and remains a minimal threat off the bounce. In fact, this year he is getting even MORE of his shots from beyond the 3 point line than in the past. This year 82% of his FGA are from 3 vs 74% in his JR year, 72% in is SO year, and 70% in his FR year. So my take is that Andre is just as reliant on his jumper as ever, but he has simply worked his way into being more focused game in and game out, which has led to greater consistency.

I'd also add that, at least according to my eye test, Andre still has plenty of defensive lapses. He has improved a touch on that end, but I think his defense is still whats keeping him from playing even more. I mean his scoring efficiency numbers are phenomenal right now--he's averaging 26 points/40min, 1.55 PPA, and an eFG% of 68%. To give some perspective:

Our Best Players Average
Jabari: 25pts/40, 1.33 PPA, eFG 51%
Rodney: 22pts/40, 1.54 PPA, eFG 60%

Dre's Competition for PT Averages
Sulaimon: 15pts/40, 1.39 PPA, eFG 48%
(Matt Jones' averages aren't worth posting)

Outlier
Amile: 14pts/40, 1.64 PPA, eFG 66%

Amile bests him in PPA as he doesnt take a shot outside 5 feet (not a bad thing!), but taken as a whole Andre appears to be our most effective scorer. So my take based on his effectiveness, my eye test, and the fact that Matt is starting and Sheed is playing more than him, is that his defense is keeping his minutes down. I hope he sees more time down the stretch, and I suspect he will...with Rodney's and Jabari's ability to get in the lane, Dre is the perfect complement outside, but we have to see some improvement on defense for that to happen.

OK, this is really odd, but Silky, I could not disagree more here. I have seen Andre do lots of things on both sides of the ball this year, he has simply not done in the past. He is way more active on defense (admittedly this is much easier to see in person than on tv), and gets beat far less than he used to. On offense, he does drive more often than he did in prior years. GAtech game was most recent where he put the ball on the floor and drove often, but he has done it in several games with success. He gets in there and hunts rebounds more often as well. I mentioned this in another thread along the way, but in the Clemson game alone he did two things I had never seen him do before. One was fill the lane on a fast break, where Quinn dished to him, and Andre went up strong and drew the foul. He also came in from the weakside and had a put back dunk off of a missed jumpshot from a teammate. I forget which game, but in one of the recent games he drove it hard from the right wing and tried to dunk on the post guy help defender. He missed but I thought he got fouled, but either way, it was a play he has always shied away from in the past. I have seen him pull a Tyler, and disrupt plays as a help defender when guarding a guy who was not a huge offfensive threat etc.

I could go on and on here. Andre is a total different player and I did not even touch on attitude, leadership, staying engaged on the bench whether he gets 35 minutes of PT or none, etc. Maybe it has not translated to huge increases in stats, but the guy is just a much different player and person. He has been a joy to watch this season.

[MCFinARL]

OK, this is really odd, but Silky, I could not disagree more here. I have seen Andre do lots of things on both sides of the ball this year, he has simply not done in the past. He is way more active on defense (admittedly this is much easier to see in person than on tv), and gets beat far less than he used to. On offense, he does drive more often than he did in prior years. GAtech game was most recent where he put the ball on the floor and drove often, but he has done it in several games with success. He gets in there and hunts rebounds more often as well. I mentioned this in another thread along the way, but in the Clemson game alone he did two things I had never seen him do before. One was fill the lane on a fast break, where Quinn dished to him, and Andre went up strong and drew the foul. He also came in from the weakside and had a put back dunk off of a missed jumpshot from a teammate. I forget which game, but in one of the recent games he drove it hard from the right wing and tried to dunk on the post guy help defender. He missed but I thought he got fouled, but either way, it was a play he has always shied away from in the past. I have seen him pull a Tyler, and disrupt plays as a help defender when guarding a guy who was not a huge offfensive threat etc.

I could go on and on here. Andre is a total different player and I did not even touch on attitude, leadership, staying engaged on the bench whether he gets 35 minutes of PT or none, etc. Maybe it has not translated to huge increases in stats, but the guy is just a much different player and person. He has been a joy to watch this season.

Agree with you, Kedsy, and Bob Green, and I would add one more thing I have seen Andre do a lot of this year that I remember less of in the past--talking on the court. He signals teammates, points, calls for the ball when open, talks with teammates between plays, shares congratulations after good plays. So he is fully engaged on the court as well as off--guess this is really just adding a bit of gloss to your point about attitude and leadership.

[SilkyJ]

^^I think that by Dawkin's overall game getting better he was referring to the fact that his rebounds, blocks, steals, and assists per minute had all gone up, not that he had added a drive to his arsenal

Yea, that's not true. His Rebounds/40 and Assists/40 are basically the same as they've always been. Rebounds/40 as a soph/jr were 1.1 vs 1.2 as a sr. Ast/40 3.6/3.7 vs 4.0 today. Marginal improvement at best.


I disagree. Anyone who shoots 48% from three-land should shoot as many open jumpers as he can get. That doesn't mean he can't drive. Andre has shown the occasional drive, including one yesterday (missed the short shot but tipped in his own miss). He takes a lot of threes because that's his role in Duke's offense -- with Jabari, Rodney, Quinn, and Rasheed around, there's not that much of a need for driving but there's always a need for shooting.

I agree that most games he has one or two defensive lapses, but I disagree that he's only improved "a touch" on defense. If you watch him on the defensive end, his positioning is much improved, his on-ball defense is much improved, and his overall defense is much improved.

What's keeping him back from playing more is we have a LOT of talented players on the team. That said, I've consistently been calling for him to get more minutes and I hope he can get up to the 18 to 22 minute range, though I'm not entirely certain from whom those extra minutes would come.

Couldn't agree more with your 2nd sentence. Never said he should be driving, heck I want him shooting all the jumpers he can. I admittedly didn't see the clemson or nc state games (traveling in asia...DVR failed me), but other than that I've seen no improvement in his driving. You're right, he had ONE SINGLE drive vs Pitt, and he threw up an 8-10 foot leaning floater that was a BRICK...not sure why you're using that as evidence--because he got lucky when the ball bounced right back to him??

Do you have any data that shows he's driving more, finishing more, in the lane? B/C right now my numbers show he's relying more on his jumper than ever and he's averaging 1.1 FG/game (meaning 2 point FG). On the eye test, I see him running off screens, looking hard for his shot, and if its not there passing out of it. I'm not criticizing either, I think he's playing great, I just haven't seen any evidence that he's improved his all around game (which, admittedly, I am mainly defining as 1. his ability to score off the bounce and 2. his defense...the two things we've always harped on for Dre).

Further, I agree that with Jabari, Rodney, Sheed, and Quinn we dont need more slashers, we need shooters to surround them. And you're right there's a lot of talent on this team, and that just means less minutes to go around. But given how effective he is as a scorer (he's our best), given that we need shooters (he's our best) out there to surround our slashers--why is he not playing more? Gotta be the D, right?


Three responses:

1. Consistency is huge!
2. He shoots a lot of jumpers because he fully understands his role on the team, which speaks volumes on his maturity.
3. His defense is a lot better as he doesn't lose his man, switches better, provides help, etc...

Kedsy already stated points #2 and #3 better than I can.

I have no facts to back up my next statement so it is 100 percent speculation on my part; however, I suspect Dawkins is exerting himself in the locker room and in practice by setting the example. He is a 5th year senior and a national champion.

Re: #2: I totally agree. I want him shooting jumpers. I just dont see evidence that he's improved beyond that. Where's the evidence?

I do think he's improved his maturity, leadership and communication. His head is clearly way more in the game than it used to be.


Agree with you, Kedsy, and Bob Green, and I would add one more thing I have seen Andre do a lot of this year that I remember less of in the past--talking on the court. He signals teammates, points, calls for the ball when open, talks with teammates between plays, shares congratulations after good plays. So he is fully engaged on the court as well as off--guess this is really just adding a bit of gloss to your point about attitude and leadership.

That's fair re: his leadership and maturity. Again I've seen improvement here. I just haven't seen improvement in his "hard skills" if you will.


OK, this is really odd, but Silky, I could not disagree more here. I have seen Andre do lots of things on both sides of the ball this year, he has simply not done in the past. He is way more active on defense (admittedly this is much easier to see in person than on tv), and gets beat far less than he used to. On offense, he does drive more often than he did in prior years. GAtech game was most recent where he put the ball on the floor and drove often, but he has done it in several games with success. He gets in there and hunts rebounds more often as well. I mentioned this in another thread along the way, but in the Clemson game alone he did two things I had never seen him do before. One was fill the lane on a fast break, where Quinn dished to him, and Andre went up strong and drew the foul. He also came in from the weakside and had a put back dunk off of a missed jumpshot from a teammate. I forget which game, but in one of the recent games he drove it hard from the right wing and tried to dunk on the post guy help defender. He missed but I thought he got fouled, but either way, it was a play he has always shied away from in the past. I have seen him pull a Tyler, and disrupt plays as a help defender when guarding a guy who was not a huge offfensive threat etc.

I could go on and on here. Andre is a total different player and I did not even touch on attitude, leadership, staying engaged on the bench whether he gets 35 minutes of PT or none, etc. Maybe it has not translated to huge increases in stats, but the guy is just a much different player and person. He has been a joy to watch this season.

I guess we're seeing different things. I see him getting beat CONSTANTLY. His communication on D is much better and demonstrative of his growth, but I don't see him getting more boards (see stats above, he's not getting more boards), he's not drive and kicking or finding teammates at a better rate, and he's shooting more 3s than ever. To suggest that he's driving more seems preposterous given the stats I posted--he's shooting more 3s than ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I see a different Dre out there on the court as well in terms of his attitude, body language, and communication and am THRILLED with his performance. Honestly, I'd love to see him playing 20mpg+ and starting, as he's a great complement to all our slashers. I'm just saying that suggesting that he's improved his hard skills (rebounding, passing, scoring off the bounce, and defense) in a significant way seems false. You show me the data.*

*His turnover % has decreased significantly, so that is definitely an important area of improvement.

[jv001]

Yea, that's not true. His Rebounds/40 and Assists/40 are basically the same as they've always been. Rebounds/40 as a soph/jr were 1.1 vs 1.2 as a sr. Ast/40 3.6/3.7 vs 4.0 today. Marginal improvement at best.



Couldn't agree more with your 2nd sentence. Never said he should be driving, heck I want him shooting all the jumpers he can. I admittedly didn't see the clemson or nc state games (traveling in asia...DVR failed me), but other than that I've seen no improvement in his driving. You're right, he had ONE SINGLE drive vs Pitt, and he threw up an 8-10 foot leaning floater that was a BRICK...not sure why you're using that as evidence--because he got lucky when the ball bounced right back to him??

Do you have any data that shows he's driving more, finishing more, in the lane? B/C right now my numbers show he's relying more on his jumper than ever and he's averaging 1.1 FG/game (meaning 2 point FG). On the eye test, I see him running off screens, looking hard for his shot, and if its not there passing out of it. I'm not criticizing either, I think he's playing great, I just haven't seen any evidence that he's improved his all around game (which, admittedly, I am mainly defining as 1. his ability to score off the bounce and 2. his defense...the two things we've always harped on for Dre).

Further, I agree that with Jabari, Rodney, Sheed, and Quinn we dont need more slashers, we need shooters to surround them. And you're right there's a lot of talent on this team, and that just means less minutes to go around. But given how effective he is as a scorer (he's our best), given that we need shooters (he's our best) out there to surround our slashers--why is he not playing more? Gotta be the D, right?



Re: #2: I totally agree. I want him shooting jumpers. I just dont see evidence that he's improved beyond that. Where's the evidence?

I do think he's improved his maturity, leadership and communication. His head is clearly way more in the game than it used to be.



That's fair re: his leadership and maturity. Again I've seen improvement here. I just haven't seen improvement in his "hard skills" if you will.



I guess we're seeing different things. I see him getting beat CONSTANTLY. His communication on D is much better and demonstrative of his growth, but I don't see him getting more boards (see stats above, he's not getting more boards), he's not drive and kicking or finding teammates at a better rate, and he's shooting more 3s than ever. To suggest that he's driving more seems preposterous given the stats I posted--he's shooting more 3s than ever!!

Don't get me wrong, I see a different Dre out there on the court as well in terms of his attitude, body language, and communication and am THRILLED with his performance. Honestly, I'd love to see him playing 20mpg+ and starting, as he's a great complement to all our slashers. I'm just saying that suggesting that he's improved his hard skills (rebounding, passing, scoring off the bounce, and defense) in a significant way seems false. You show me the data.*

*His turnover % has decreased significantly, so that is definitely an important area of improvement.

This could come from his improvement in ball handling. I know Andre's not the greatest ball handler on the team but he has improved enough that he can shot fake and take the ball into the lane for a mid-range shot. I guess his performance is in the eye of the beholder. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

Couldn't agree more with your 2nd sentence. Never said he should be driving, heck I want him shooting all the jumpers he can. I admittedly didn't see the clemson or nc state games (traveling in asia...DVR failed me), but other than that I've seen no improvement in his driving. You're right, he had ONE SINGLE drive vs Pitt, and he threw up an 8-10 foot leaning floater that was a BRICK...not sure why you're using that as evidence--because he got lucky when the ball bounced right back to him??

Do you have any data that shows he's driving more, finishing more, in the lane? B/C right now my numbers show he's relying more on his jumper than ever and he's averaging 1.1 FG/game (meaning 2 point FG). On the eye test, I see him running off screens, looking hard for his shot, and if its not there passing out of it. I'm not criticizing either, I think he's playing great, I just haven't seen any evidence that he's improved his all around game (which, admittedly, I am mainly defining as 1. his ability to score off the bounce and 2. his defense...the two things we've always harped on for Dre).

This seems inconsistent to me. First you say he shouldn't be driving then you ask for data that shows he's driving more. He isn't driving more, but he has clearly shown in several games that he has that club in his bag, that he's not afraid to use it, and that he can get a decent shot with it. To me, despite the lack of quantity, we've seen an improvement in quality and in my mind that's all we've needed to see.

As far as his defense, if you rewatch the games and chart Andre's D (which I admit I haven't), I bet he rarely if ever gets beat more than once or twice a game, and that's not "constantly" (neither lower nor upper case). And frankly, there's nobody on our team that doesn't get beat once or twice a game. To my eyes, Andre has improved every facet of his defense. And even if the only improvement is communication (which I don't think gives him enough credit), that's still a huge improvement and exactly what he needs to do.

Anyone with eyes can see this is a different player out there. To say he has not improved his all-around game I don't think is fair or accurate.

[Kedsy]

I want him shooting jumpers. I just dont see evidence that he's improved beyond that. Where's the evidence?

Also, Andre is more aggressively hunting his jumper, which is a major improvement. As evidence of that, I offer his usage %:

USAGE PERCENTAGE
Freshman year: 17.3%
Sophomore year: 16.0%
Junior year: 18.3%
Senior year: 25.2%

That's a huge jump and suggests he's not disappearing or just standing in the corner waiting for a pass (as it often seemed his first 3 years).

That's also not simply an improvement in his jumper, it's both a qualitative and quantitative improvement in the type of player he in on offense.

In addition, if you believe in this stuff, here are a couple other advanced stats that suggest he's a much different and much better overall player:

PER
Freshman year: 13.3
Sophomore year: 15.7
Junior year: 13.4
Senior year: 27.5

WIN SHARES PER 40 MINUTES
Freshman year: 0.156
Sophomore year: 0.169
Junior year: 0.120
Senior year: 0.248

These are gigunda improvements that I assume are not all attributable to his increased shooting percentage.

Finally, while the differences in the following aren't necessarily quantum, he is averaging career bests in defensive rebounding percentage (10.5%, while previous best was 8.6%); assist percentage (6.5%, while previous best was 5.1%); steal percentage (2.3%, while previous best was 1.5%); block percentage (1.3%, while previous best was 0.5%); turnover percentage (7.0%, while previous best was 9.0%), and oRating (137.3, while previous best was 126.6).

From a percentage improvement standpoint, those are all pretty big jumps. I can't see any argument that he isn't much improved this season compared to previous seasons.

[Bob Green]

You show me the data.*

Sometimes fans get too caught up in the stats. I know because I have a love affair with box scores. However, when I watch Andre Dawkins with my eyes I see improvement across the board.

BTW: His 20 points against Pitt raises his career total to 940 points with 10 games left in the regular season, which equates to two made 3 PT FGs per game to hit 1000.

BTW #2: Dawkins is currently #1 in the ACC in 3 PT FG% at 47.5%.

[jv001]

Sometimes fans get too caught up in the stats. I know because I have a love affair with box scores. However, when I watch Andre Dawkins with my eyes I see improvement across the board.

BTW: His 20 points against Pitt raises his career total to 940 points with 10 games left in the regular season, which equates to two made 3 PT FGs per game to hit 1000.

BTW #2: Dawkins is currently #1 in the ACC in 3 PT FG% at 47.5%.

Too lazy to look it up, but is Rodney #2 in the ACC in 3 pt FG%? GoDuke!

[Bob Green]

Too lazy to look it up, but is Rodney #2 in the ACC in 3 pt FG%? GoDuke!

Yes, at 44.8%. Hood has made 43 of 96, while Dawkins has made 47 of 99.

[nmduke2001]

I know this sounds silly, but it is almost as if Andre’s three point shots count more than three points. Dre’s shots are often very timely, either starting a Duke run or stopping an opponent’s run. More importantly, I think that it is incredibly deflating for an opponent when a player uses his preferred weapon to beat the scouting report. Just look at the opposing coach and players when Dre enters the game. Everyone starts yelling “shooter” to make everyone aware that Dre is in the game. If he still hits a couple, heads start to sag in disappointment and frustration. If it's a home game, the crowd goes crazy with excitement. To me, that is worth more than three points.

[jv001]

Yes, at 44.8%. Hood has made 43 of 96, while Dawkins has made 47 of 99.

Thanks Bob. Andre with 4 more threes in way less minutes than Rodney. However Rodney has made more 2 pt field goals than Dre. We are blessed to have both young men. GoDuke!

[DisplacedBlueDevil]

As a 5th year Super Senior, it's Andre's maturation that is developing before our eyes and it's effect on his teammates which holds the most value for this team. That, and his infectious smile which lights up every venue...'Dre All Day!

[sagegrouse]

As a 5th year Super Senior, it's Andre's maturation that is developing before our eyes and it's effect on his teammates which holds the most value for this team. That, and his infectious smile which lights up every venue...'Dre All Day!

Bsketball skills aside, Andre appears to be much stronger with much better muscle definition. We have seen him just tear the ball away from other players.

[NSDukeFan]

Also, Andre is more aggressively hunting his jumper, which is a major improvement. As evidence of that, I offer his usage %:

USAGE PERCENTAGE
Freshman year: 17.3%
Sophomore year: 16.0%
Junior year: 18.3%
Senior year: 25.2%

That's a huge jump and suggests he's not disappearing or just standing in the corner waiting for a pass (as it often seemed his first 3 years).

That's also not simply an improvement in his jumper, it's both a qualitative and quantitative improvement in the type of player he in on offense.

In addition, if you believe in this stuff, here are a couple other advanced stats that suggest he's a much different and much better overall player:

PER
Freshman year: 13.3
Sophomore year: 15.7
Junior year: 13.4
Senior year: 27.5

WIN SHARES PER 40 MINUTES
Freshman year: 0.156
Sophomore year: 0.169
Junior year: 0.120
Senior year: 0.248

These are gigunda improvements that I assume are not all attributable to his increased shooting percentage.

Finally, while the differences in the following aren't necessarily quantum, he is averaging career bests in defensive rebounding percentage (10.5%, while previous best was 8.6%); assist percentage (6.5%, while previous best was 5.1%); steal percentage (2.3%, while previous best was 1.5%); block percentage (1.3%, while previous best was 0.5%); turnover percentage (7.0%, while previous best was 9.0%), and oRating (137.3, while previous best was 126.6).

From a percentage improvement standpoint, those are all pretty big jumps. I can't see any argument that he isn't much improved this season compared to previous seasons.

I believe part of the reason the usage % is up even though everyone knows Andre can hit the three is that he has added more 3s off the dribble, when defenders are coming out to prevent the shot off the pass. That is a nice improvement, among others.

[Kedsy]

I believe part of the reason the usage % is up even though everyone knows Andre can hit the three is that he has added more 3s off the dribble, when defenders are coming out to prevent the shot off the pass. That is a nice improvement, among others.

I'm sure that's part of it, but there has to be more. The more I think about it, the fact that from his previous season to this season he's more than doubled his PER and win shares per 40 is evidence of unbelievable improvement that even SilkyJ ought to admit.

[greybeard]

Andre's defense will improve as he softens his carriage and his gaze, sees, sense and feels more, let's them inform action. Andres' defense will improve when he is no longer concerned about "getting it wrong or right," just with doing it and learning from outcomes, desired and not. Andre's defense will improve because it just will. Each moment provides growth, more to bring to the next, more so when an undesired outcome shows up, much more understanding produced. Andre's defense will improve as ever more he embraces seeing as thinking, sensing as thinking, feeling as thinking, breathing as thinking, all of one piece with doing, for all those in the game and not just himself. Andre is getting that more and more on offense,.he has always felt before he even began going up the difference between a sure make and miss, now the feeling is decision is action, and that sensory way of discerning and acting without intermediary is beginning to grow on offense and I think also on defense. The growth, to the extent unimpeded by judgment, the need to try to control outcomes, can spread quite quickly. He might be approaching a point where the growth will be, no way to stop it. None.

Grey, this is pretty damned weird, even for you. I'm not mad at that. Well see, all you need is to look with an open gaze, feel what you see, sense what you see, and we'll see. Now that's weirder still. no? We'll see. ;)

[Newton_14]

I'm sure that's part of it, but there has to be more. The more I think about it, the fact that from his previous season to this season he's more than doubled his PER and win shares per 40 is evidence of unbelievable improvement that even SilkyJ ought to admit.
Yeah, SilkyJ is one of my favorite posters here, and I also consider him a good "internet friend", but I cannot get onboard with his current assessment of Andre. Maybe I am spoiled by being able to see the guys play in person so often, where you can see so much more of the action, but my eyes are not lying to me on this one. Number 34 is just a much improved version over the old number 20, in every facet of his game including defense. No one is going to change my mind on that. You are the stats guru, not me, so thanks for showing the stats that back up what my eyes are seeing. Am I biased? Sure. I love the kid, appreciate what he has gone through personally, and want him to succeed. That said, he has put in the work, transformed from a sulky kid with major anger management issues (due to the depression) into a mature, man. A leader, a cheerleader, and a person with a positive outlook and approach to the game.

He is also blessed with the purest stroke in college hoops. He works to get open, takes the 3 when it is there, drives when that is there, and either finishes, draws the foul, or dishes to an open teammate. He is much more comfortable dribbling on the perimeter, even though he still does not dribble a lot. Across the full skillset he has improved marginally in some areas, a medium amount in others, and I would say, markedly in a few others. His biggest weakness is lateral quickness, but he is better with using smarts to try to overcome that weakness, than in his first 3 years. Does he get beat? Sure. But it is certainly not "constant", and like you stated, it is no more often than his more esteemed teammates. Heck Quinn gets torched way more often than Andre for one example, as does Jabari. On the whole though, Quinn, Andre, Jabari to a lesser extent, and all the others have pulled it together to improve their individual and team defense to the point where it is much better than December and even early January.

Some teams are better at defending Andre than others, but he consistently makes teams pay when they slip even a little in keeping a guy in his shorts every second of every possession. I wish K would play him more, but I also understand that those other wing guys can play well also, and bring things different than what Andre brings. That said, none of them have the ability to change a game as quickly as Andre on offense, outside of Jabari, and to a lesser extent Hood. Andre can and has turned close games into 9 to 15 point leads all by himself in very few possessions. Ask Michigan, and Pitt how that worked out for them. He turned both games in a very short timeframe. Even when he isn't scoring, the attention he demands opens up the floor and gives our other kids space and more opportunity to impose their will and make teams pay themselves.

[tommy]

Andre's defense will improve as he softens his carriage and his gaze, sees, sense and feels more, let's them inform action. Andres' defense will improve when he is no longer concerned about "getting it wrong or right," just with doing it and learning from outcomes, desired and not. Andre's defense will improve because it just will. Each moment provides growth, more to bring to the next, more so when an undesired outcome shows up, much more understanding produced. Andre's defense will improve as ever more he embraces seeing as thinking, sensing as thinking, feeling as thinking, breathing as thinking, all of one piece with doing, for all those in the game and not just himself. Andre is getting that more and more on offense,.he has always felt before he even began going up the difference between a sure make and miss, now the feeling is decision is action, and that sensory way of discerning and acting without intermediary is beginning to grow on offense and I think also on defense. The growth, to the extent unimpeded by judgment, the need to try to control outcomes, can spread quite quickly. He might be approaching a point where the growth will be, no way to stop it. None.

I'll have whatever he's having.

[blUDAYvil]

Andre's defense will improve as he softens his carriage and his gaze, sees, sense and feels more, let's them inform action. Andres' defense will improve when he is no longer concerned about "getting it wrong or right," just with doing it and learning from outcomes, desired and not. Andre's defense will improve because it just will. Each moment provides growth, more to bring to the next, more so when an undesired outcome shows up, much more understanding produced. Andre's defense will improve as ever more he embraces seeing as thinking, sensing as thinking, feeling as thinking, breathing as thinking, all of one piece with doing, for all those in the game and not just himself. Andre is getting that more and more on offense,.he has always felt before he even began going up the difference between a sure make and miss, now the feeling is decision is action, and that sensory way of discerning and acting without intermediary is beginning to grow on offense and I think also on defense. The growth, to the extent unimpeded by judgment, the need to try to control outcomes, can spread quite quickly. He might be approaching a point where the growth will be, no way to stop it. None.

Grey, this is pretty damned weird, even for you. I'm not mad at that. Well see, all you need is to look with an open gaze, feel what you see, sense what you see, and we'll see. Now that's weirder still. no? We'll see. ;)

Didn't expect to see an excerpt from Siddhartha on this forum. Though I suppose Dre's recent play has been transcendent.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Andre's defense will improve as he softens his carriage and his gaze, sees, sense and feels more, let's them inform action. Andres' defense will improve when he is no longer concerned about "getting it wrong or right," just with doing it and learning from outcomes, desired and not. Andre's defense will improve because it just will. Each moment provides growth, more to bring to the next, more so when an undesired outcome shows up, much more understanding produced. Andre's defense will improve as ever more he embraces seeing as thinking, sensing as thinking, feeling as thinking, breathing as thinking, all of one piece with doing, for all those in the game and not just himself. Andre is getting that more and more on offense,.he has always felt before he even began going up the difference between a sure make and miss, now the feeling is decision is action, and that sensory way of discerning and acting without intermediary is beginning to grow on offense and I think also on defense. The growth, to the extent unimpeded by judgment, the need to try to control outcomes, can spread quite quickly. He might be approaching a point where the growth will be, no way to stop it. None.

Grey, this is pretty damned weird, even for you. I'm not mad at that. Well see, all you need is to look with an open gaze, feel what you see, sense what you see, and we'll see. Now that's weirder still. no? We'll see. ;)

I feel like I'm reading James Joyce when I try to read Greybeard's posts...

[greybeard]

I feel like I'm reading James Joyce when I try to read Greybeard's posts...

That's because you presuppose that ever changing information taken in through the senses is necessarily and more importantly best processed through the brain in words, understandable but hardly logical.

[jv001]

That's because you presuppose that ever changing information taken in through the senses is necessarily and more importantly best processed through the brain in words, understandable but hardly logical.

You, my friend are a "hoot". GoDuke!

[Chicken Little]

Bsketball skills aside, Andre appears to be much stronger with much better muscle definition. We have seen him just tear the ball away from other players.

If I recall correctly, either an internet article or commentary during a game noted that he holds a number of records in the Duke weight room this year. It definitely shows.

[Kfanarmy]

Andre's defense will improve as he softens his carriage and his gaze, sees, sense and feels more, let's them inform action. Andres' defense will improve when he is no longer concerned about "getting it wrong or right," just with doing it and learning from outcomes, desired and not. Andre's defense will improve because it just will. Each moment provides growth, more to bring to the next, more so when an undesired outcome shows up, much more understanding produced. Andre's defense will improve as ever more he embraces seeing as thinking, sensing as thinking, feeling as thinking, breathing as thinking, all of one piece with doing, for all those in the game and not just himself. Andre is getting that more and more on offense,.he has always felt before he even began going up the difference between a sure make and miss, now the feeling is decision is action, and that sensory way of discerning and acting without intermediary is beginning to grow on offense and I think also on defense. The growth, to the extent unimpeded by judgment, the need to try to control outcomes, can spread quite quickly. He might be approaching a point where the growth will be, no way to stop it. None. ....) I get most everything here but did you mean SOFTTENS HIS GAZE? I've never seen any kind of animal concentrating on anything that required speed and accuracy that seemed to have a soft gaze...

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

Where does Dre stand on the all-time 3 point FGs made list? He's got to be getting up there. I can't seem to find a list of career records on the dukestatsgeek site.

[1 24 90]

Where does Dre stand on the all-time 3 point FGs made list? He's got to be getting up there. I can't seem to find a list of career records on the dukestatsgeek site.

He is just outside the Top 10. I believe when I looked at the media guide on goduke.com last week that Daniel Ewing was #10 with 217. At some point during the Florida St. game, I recall Doris saying he had hit #210 and when you add in the Pitt game he should be in the Top 10 shortly.

According to the media guide, Andre had 167 3's going into this season. Adding in the 47 he has hit this year, he sits at 214 for his career.

[greybeard]

I get most everything here but did you mean SOFTTENS HIS GAZE? I've never seen any kind of animal concentrating on anything that required speed and accuracy that seemed to have a soft gaze...

If you look for something that you think is necessary with tunnel vision, what is necessary might show up in a different form in a different place. When you shoot, you do not gaze, you focus on the rim. When the game is on, the broader your range of awareness, both out there and within yourself, the better. I don't see how it can be otherwise.

A lion does not pick out the target in the herd by focusing, but rather by gazing and a target pops out, something in the gait, something in the carriage of the head, a calf seemingly separated from its mother, who knows, but not by focusing as when lock in occurs, and the chase begins. Even then, is the gaze soft, or narrow, or both. If narrow, will the lion see where best to try to force the prey to go, where impediment lies, options limit. Who knows, but I suspect, like the photographer who has found the shop and narrows in, there is always simultaneously a broad gaze to find the right moment, the right angle, to create the right light, to create what is better.

Focus is narrowest when the cat is poised in waiting, locked in, but soft in carriage, ready to spring at the right moment. In fact, the stare might be to make the prey commit, force it first to freeze, from which the first movement requires readjustment, softening and then readjusting but, showing direction before "escape" is action. The lion creates advantage by creating fear, perhaps also by noticing, being sure, that the prey is occupied, head down and hanging, when the feel of greatest disadvantage emerges, the lion opens as does its gaze, the spring to action by the prey, also requires readjustment to create response, again advantage. Who knows.

When Hearns had Sugar Ray dead on the ropes, Ray's shoulders dropped, he let go, he was ducking and moving to create lines to punch, to orient to get something behind them even while he was beginning to throw, to be able to avoid by seeing, sensing, feeling even while moving to avoid and be able to throw again at the same time, and so on. Ray, like Ali, used focused stare to confuse and freeze.

Remember Austin before that shot, 4 seconds and he is bouncing and staring Zeller in the eye, or seemingly so, but also seeing the rim, seeing the floor to orient himself. Zeller felt frozen in Austin, saw it in his eyes, and that showed up in Zeller, only Austin was all illusion. Zeller had no chance, Rivers created that. At least that's what I sensed, felt, saw. Who knows.

[Kedsy]

He is just outside the Top 10. I believe when I looked at the media guide on goduke.com last week that Daniel Ewing was #10 with 217. At some point during the Florida St. game, I recall Doris saying he had hit #210 and when you add in the Pitt game he should be in the Top 10 shortly.

According to the media guide, Andre had 167 3's going into this season. Adding in the 47 he has hit this year, he sits at 214 for his career.

Yes, Andre has 214 so far, which ranks him 11th on Duke's all-time list. He recently passed #13 Chris Collins (209) and #12 Greg Paulus (210).

Next up is:

10. Daniel Ewing (217)
9. Jeff Capel (220)
8. Seth Curry (223)
7. Shane Battier (246)
6. Bobby Hurley (264)
5. Kyle Singler (267)
4. Jon Scheyer (297)
3. Jason Williams (313)
2. Trajan Langdon (342)
1. JJ Redick (457)

My guess is Andre ends up #8, or possibly #7 if a lot of things go right. That said, it's a pretty nice list to be a part of.

[pfrduke]

Yes, Andre has 214 so far, which ranks him 11th on Duke's all-time list. He recently passed #13 Chris Collins (209) and #12 Greg Paulus (210).

Next up is:

10. Daniel Ewing (217)
9. Jeff Capel (220)
8. Seth Curry (223)
7. Shane Battier (246)
6. Bobby Hurley (264)
5. Kyle Singler (267)
4. Jon Scheyer (297)
3. Jason Williams (313)
2. Trajan Langdon (342)
1. JJ Redick (457)

My guess is Andre ends up #8, or possibly #7 if a lot of things go right. That said, it's a pretty nice list to be a part of.

It's amazing with all the 3's Andre has hit that he's closer to 0 than he is to JJ. Redick was ridiculous. I think that particular record might be permanent.

[Kedsy]

It's amazing with all the 3's Andre has hit that he's closer to 0 than he is to JJ. Redick was ridiculous. I think that particular record might be permanent.

You never know. Jason Williams might have come close if he'd played four years (although he probably wouldn't have quite gotten there).

[flyingdutchdevil]

You never know. Jason Williams might have come close if he'd played four years (although he probably wouldn't have quite gotten there).

I think that's what pfrduke is trying to say. Players who are that good at 3pt shooting probably also leave school early, making the record all that more difficult. After JJ broke the ACC All-Time scoring record, I was convinced that no one would ever break it for the same reason. Unfortunately, Hansbrough came along. If you're Hansbrough, isn't 4 years of UNC the same as declaring for the NBA early? I mean, in both cases, you aren't going to class. Damn...Hansbrough has dumb...

[Wander]

It's amazing with all the 3's Andre has hit that he's closer to 0 than he is to JJ. Redick was ridiculous. I think that particular record might be permanent.

Maybe at Duke, but I think there's a guy at a smaller (D1) college who broke the record this season, or is just about to do so.

EDIT: Found it. Travis Bader at Oakland with 450. Enjoy it while it lasts for the next week or so.

[pfrduke]

Maybe at Duke, but I think there's a guy at a smaller (D1) college who broke the record this season, or is just about to do so.

EDIT: Found it. Travis Bader at Oakland with 450. Enjoy it while it lasts for the next week or so.

Yeah, I meant at Duke, largely for the reasons FDD said. Given our talent level, someone has to be good enough to come in and start (and play heavy minutes) from day 1 but not so good (or not a sufficient pro prospect) that he leaves early.

[MCFinARL]

Yes, Andre has 214 so far, which ranks him 11th on Duke's all-time list. He recently passed #13 Chris Collins (209) and #12 Greg Paulus (210).

Next up is:

10. Daniel Ewing (217)
9. Jeff Capel (220)
8. Seth Curry (223)
7. Shane Battier (246)
6. Bobby Hurley (264)
5. Kyle Singler (267)
4. Jon Scheyer (297)
3. Jason Williams (313)
2. Trajan Langdon (342)
1. JJ Redick (457)

My guess is Andre ends up #8, or possibly #7 if a lot of things go right. That said, it's a pretty nice list to be a part of.

Yes. I'd be pretty interested to see a conversion of this list into 3's made per minute of playing time--suspect Andre would rank a bit higher on that list. BUT--I don't want to know badly enough to try to figure out how many minutes each of these players played in his career.....

[Kedsy]

Yes. I'd be pretty interested to see a conversion of this list into 3's made per minute of playing time--suspect Andre would rank a bit higher on that list. BUT--I don't want to know badly enough to try to figure out how many minutes each of these players played in his career.....

Ask and ye shall receive:

DUKE MADE THREE POINTERS PER MINUTE PLAYED (minimum 200 made three pointers)

1. JJ Redick, .097
2. Andre Dawkins, .093
3. Jason Williams, .088
4. Trajan Langdon, .087
5. Chris Collins, .073
6. Seth Curry, .072
7. Jon Scheyer, .062
8. Jeff Capel, .058
9. Shane Battier, .057
10. Daniel Ewing, .057
11. Greg Paulus, .056
12. Kyle Singler, .055
13. Bobby Hurley, .055

[wk2109]

Ask and ye shall receive:

DUKE MADE THREE POINTERS PER MINUTE PLAYED (minimum 200 made three pointers)

1. JJ Redick, .097
2. Andre Dawkins, .093
3. Jason Williams, .088
4. Trajan Langdon, .087
5. Chris Collins, .073
6. Seth Curry, .072
7. Jon Scheyer, .062
8. Jeff Capel, .058
9. Shane Battier, .057
10. Daniel Ewing, .057
11. Greg Paulus, .056
12. Kyle Singler, .055
13. Bobby Hurley, .055

Thanks, very interesting. I expected Seth's number to be higher because his 3-pt total came in three years. He made 102 threes at Liberty (325 overall during college).

JJ Redick was a machine. I think Grayson is the next guy who has potential to make the list (unless Rasheed stays for 4 years and really turns it up from downtown), but I see his ceiling as a shooter in Jon Scheyer territory, not JJ Redick territory.

[Jim3k]

Bsketball skills aside, Andre appears to be much stronger with much better muscle definition. We have seen him just tear the ball away from other players.


Yes. And this may be what has triggered his visible improvement. He's now a tough rebounder who values the ball.

[throatybeard]

I feel like I'm reading James Joyce when I try to read Greybeard's posts...

Like how hardcore are we talkin here? Like, Finnegans Wake?

[throatybeard]

No. Infants are aided by language. They may not understand every word of "NOOOO! SUZIE, DO NOT STICK YOUR TONGUE IN THE ELECTRICAL SOCKET!!!!!," but they get the gist.

Most kids don't understand negation and polarity until they're about three, but your kid's mileage may vary--there's a wide range around three.

[cato]

Most kids don't understand negation and polarity until they're about three, but your kid's mileage may vary--there's a wide range around three.

Lord help them, they're trying though. More than my cat, anyway.

[Ultrarunner]

Yes, Andre has 214 so far, which ranks him 11th on Duke's all-time list. He recently passed #13 Chris Collins (209) and #12 Greg Paulus (210).

Next up is:

10. Daniel Ewing (217)
9. Jeff Capel (220)
8. Seth Curry (223)
7. Shane Battier (246)
6. Bobby Hurley (264)
5. Kyle Singler (267)
4. Jon Scheyer (297)
3. Jason Williams (313)
2. Trajan Langdon (342)
1. JJ Redick (457)

My guess is Andre ends up #8, or possibly #7 if a lot of things go right. That said, it's a pretty nice list to be a part of.

It sure wouldn't hurt if he got a touch hot and tied Kyle. Figuring maybe, 19 games left in the season? (counting the post-season, of course.)

[MCFinARL]

Ask and ye shall receive:

DUKE MADE THREE POINTERS PER MINUTE PLAYED (minimum 200 made three pointers)

1. JJ Redick, .097
2. Andre Dawkins, .093
3. Jason Williams, .088
4. Trajan Langdon, .087
5. Chris Collins, .073
6. Seth Curry, .072
7. Jon Scheyer, .062
8. Jeff Capel, .058
9. Shane Battier, .057
10. Daniel Ewing, .057
11. Greg Paulus, .056
12. Kyle Singler, .055
13. Bobby Hurley, .055

Thanks, Kedsy! Can't spork you, or I would.

Just as I suspected, Andre moves up a lot. And JJ Redick was, well, redickulous.

[phaedrus]

Ask and ye shall receive:

DUKE MADE THREE POINTERS PER MINUTE PLAYED (minimum 200 made three pointers)

1. JJ Redick, .097
2. Andre Dawkins, .093
3. Jason Williams, .088
4. Trajan Langdon, .087
5. Chris Collins, .073
6. Seth Curry, .072
7. Jon Scheyer, .062
8. Jeff Capel, .058
9. Shane Battier, .057
10. Daniel Ewing, .057
11. Greg Paulus, .056
12. Kyle Singler, .055
13. Bobby Hurley, .055

Of course, your minimum excludes one of the great 3-point gunners in Duke history, Taylor King, who achieved an astonishing rate of 0.1303 three-pointers per minute.

[TruBlu]

Of course, your minimum excludes one of the great 3-point gunners in Duke history, Taylor King, who achieved an astonishing rate of 0.1303 three-pointers per minute.

Fortunately, it was kept to a very small sample size.:p

[greybeard]

Like how hardcore are we talkin here? Like, Finnegans Wake?

Hey, that's a coincidence, my son's senior thesis was a comparison of Joyce and Jorge Luis Borges on the convention called time. Personally, I could have done without the guy who invented it. "What have they done to my brain, Ma . . . ." ;)

[Henderson]

10. Daniel Ewing (217)
9. Jeff Capel (220)
8. Seth Curry (223)
7. Shane Battier (246)
6. Bobby Hurley (264)
5. Kyle Singler (267)
4. Jon Scheyer (297)
3. Jason Williams (313)
2. Trajan Langdon (342)
1. JJ Redick (457)


Andre will indeed be in good company by the end of the season. But what leaves me shaking my head in amazement is that number 457. Zounds, JJ. No wonder it's an all time NCAA record.

Unfortunately, JJ's NCAA Division I record for most 3 pointers in a career is about to be broken. Travis Bader, senior guard for the Oakland Grizzlies is sitting at 455 right now with 8 regular season games to play plus at least one Horizon League Tournament game. He's likely to break the record tomorrow night at Milwaukee.

[greybeard]

I personally find Proust's In Search of Lost Time" more apt. My use for time, I think present somewhere in its impenetrable depths. As a commenter observed:

No single theory or approach will make Proust easily and quickly available to all inquiring minds. The very resistance of his work to simplification and analysis constitutes its most evident general characteristic. Beyond this feature, however, we discover endless contradictions in the Search. . . . Proust asks the [] question. How much of one's multitudinous self can a person reveal or embody at one time? The first answer is plain common sense: it all depends. It depends on many things, from chance and volition to memory and forgetting. The second answer is categorical. No matter how we go about it, we cannot be all of ourselves all at once. Narrow light beams of perception and of recollection illuminate the present and the past in vivid fragments. The clarity of those fragments is sometimes very great. They may even overlap and reinforce one another. However, to summon our entire self into simultaneous existence lies beyond our powers. We live by synecdoche, by cycles of being. More profoundly than any other novelist, Proust perceived this state of things and worked as an economist of the personality. . . . Through habit and convention we may find security in "the immobility of the things around us" (I 6/i5). Yet this appearance of stability affords only temporary refuge. We yield with excitement, apprehension, and a deeper sense of existence to the great wheeling motion of experience. On a single page Proust refers to that endless shifting process as both "the secret of the future" and "the darkness we can never penetrate" (II 67/iii 81, 82). He also has a word for it: our lot is "intermittence," the only steady state we know.

Say what?

[greybeard]

My personal view, in movement with a softness of not looking many layers emerge such that the past and future in smaller than milliseconds of time blend such that the past, present and future are of a piece, we sense/see/feel and thus know what is next--see the game unfold before it does, have what is called great anticipation. Proust, what did he know.;)

[DukeHLM'13]

Ask and ye shall receive:

DUKE MADE THREE POINTERS PER MINUTE PLAYED (minimum 200 made three pointers)

1. JJ Redick, .097
2. Andre Dawkins, .093
3. Jason Williams, .088
4. Trajan Langdon, .087
5. Chris Collins, .073
6. Seth Curry, .072
7. Jon Scheyer, .062
8. Jeff Capel, .058
9. Shane Battier, .057
10. Daniel Ewing, .057
11. Greg Paulus, .056
12. Kyle Singler, .055
13. Bobby Hurley, .055

This may just be because I was an awestruck kid when I watched JJ play at Duke, but I'm surprised that his 3 point rate isn't higher than that. I would have been almost certain that he would have hit at a rate greater than 4 per 40 minutes played.

[JasonEvans]

Unfortunately, JJ's NCAA Division I record for most 3 pointers in a career is about to be broken. Travis Bader, senior guard for the Oakland Grizzlies is sitting at 455 right now with 8 regular season games to play plus at least one Horizon League Tournament game. He's likely to break the record tomorrow night at Milwaukee.

So, JJ will soon hold the record for 3-pointers made at a Div 1 school that actually matters.

Oakland... sheesh! I know they managed to win the Horizon and actually make the NCAA tourney a couple years ago, but it is not like Bader is even coming close to competing against the same kind of teams as JJ. He's playing college AA ball and breaking a record that JJ set in the Majors.

-Jason "who me? Bitter? Naaah" Evans

[greybeard]

Basket same height, 3-line the same distance, no reason to think that distances shot or space and time to shoot favors either, so, the only thing that we can say that counts is . . . ?

[Henderson]

Travis Bader is by all accounts a good kid. Oakland was his only Division 1 scholarship offer, and he's made the most of it. He has several awards for his off-court work. I vote for graciousness and congratulations as JJ's record falls.

[Bob Green]

BTW: His 20 points against Pitt raises his career total to 940 points with 10 games left in the regular season, which equates to two made 3 PT FGs per game to hit 1000.



Dawkins scored 14 in the painful loss to Syracuse to raise his total to 954 points with 9 games left in the regular season.

[Kedsy]

Basket same height, 3-line the same distance, no reason to think that distances shot or space and time to shoot favors either, so, the only thing that we can say that counts is . . . ?

How about the size, quickness, and quality of the defenders?

[Henderson]

How about the size, quickness, and quality of the defenders?

How about the quality of one's team mates? Playing SG on a team with lots of other scoring options opens things up for those good looks at a 3.

[Lunchab1es]

Basket same height, 3-line the same distance, no reason to think that distances shot or space and time to shoot favors either, so, the only thing that we can say that counts is . . . ?

Isn't the 3-line distance actually longer now than when JJ played for Duke?

[rsvman]

Isn't the 3-line distance actually longer now than when JJ played for Duke?

It is.

[Henderson]

It is.

When J.J. played, it was 19 feet, 9 inches. Beginning with the 2008-09 season it was moved back to 20 feet, 9 inches.

[timmy c]

When J.J. played, it was 19 feet, 9 inches. Beginning with the 2008-09 season it was moved back to 20 feet, 9 inches.

JJ hardly ever got any looks from 19'-9". I seem to remember him frequently bombing away several feet behind the line.

[greybeard]

How about the size, quickness, and quality of the defenders?

Probably evens out, size and quickness, so difficulty getting shots off comparable. Also, athleticism and ability to defend goes very deep on all levels. Big drop off on shooting, interior size significant on the two levels, but athleticism often very high on 6'5"-6'7" inside players, some of whom can score the ball. Ran an awful lot of action for JJ, and did have a killer inside who drew significant attention, and I think another 3-shooter who needed attention, the guy who went too early, or am I mistaken as to when he played.

But, JJ did show impressive ability to clear space for himself off the dribble, and had most impressive shot I'd seen in college through his time. Don't know that that is still true.

Range and athleticism have improved so much, and so many of great scorers with the 3 ball in recent years, hard to tell if can still say that JJ had sweetest 3 style and ability I've seen. K has always loved the 3, that's just about all JJ did.

I remember sitting in baseline corner in the Georgetown game and really getting a look at him. So impactful, never seen his like.

[Listen to Quants]

Probably evens out, size and quickness, so difficulty getting shots off comparable. Also, athleticism and ability to defend goes very deep on all levels. Big drop off on shooting, interior size significant on the two levels, but athleticism often very high on 6'5"-6'7" inside players, some of whom can score the ball. Ran an awful lot of action for JJ, and did have a killer inside who drew significant attention, and I think another 3-shooter who needed attention, the guy who went too early, or am I mistaken as to when he played.

But, JJ did show impressive ability to clear space for himself off the dribble, and had most impressive shot I'd seen in college through his time. Don't know that that is still true.

Range and athleticism have improved so much, and so many of great scorers with the 3 ball in recent years, hard to tell if can still say that JJ had sweetest 3 style and ability I've seen. K has always loved the 3, that's just about all JJ did.

I remember sitting in baseline corner in the Georgetown game and really getting a look at him. So impactful, never seen his like.

The thought experiment of JJ at Oakland for 4 years and counting the 3s is fun. 1000? probably not.

[Newton_14]

JJ hardly ever got any looks from 19'-9". I seem to remember him frequently bombing away several feet behind the line.That is absolutely correct. JJ never had looks right at the line. He routinely took his shots 1 to 4 steps behind the line with 1 or 2 defenders draped all over him. It's funny that the few times he got an open look right at the line he often missed. The guy was just a machine from 21-22 even 23 feet out. Just the greatest shooter ever in college ball in my humble opinion. His Jr and Sr seasons were a true joy and amazing thing to watch.

[-jk]

I recall they had to replace his jersey something like three times during his senior year from getting stretched out of shape with all the holding.

-jk

[Newton_14]

I recall they had to replace his jersey something like three times during his senior year from getting stretched out of shape with all the holding.

-jk

Yep, I recall that too. He was battered and bruised after every game due to the 40 minutes of muggings.

[TruBlu]

I recall they had to replace his jersey something like three times during his senior year from getting stretched out of shape with all the holding.

-jk

With very few fouls called. But we get all the calls, right?

[jv001]

Yep, I recall that too. He was battered and bruised after every game due to the 40 minutes of muggings.

JJ was battered and bruised after every game with hardly any fouls being called. But the" bull in a china shop" just down the street(hanstravel) was given the benefit of each contact made against him. Free throw after free throw given. Therefore there should be an * by the ACC career scoring leader's name.:cool: GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

JJ was battered and bruised after every game with hardly any fouls being called. But the" bull in a china shop" just down the street(hanstravel) was given the benefit of each contact made against him. Free throw after free throw given. Therefore there should be an * by the ACC career scoring leader's name.:cool: GoDuke!

well the fact that Hansfeetwilltravel has had a resoundingly mediocre NBA career vs. JJ's rather accomplished career indicate the value obtained by not having the officials give you half of your career points.

[Indoor66]

well the fact that Hansfeetwilltravel has had a resoundingly mediocre NBA career vs. JJ's rather accomplished career indicate the value obtained by not having the officials give you half of your career points.

That is an interesting transitive approach. I'm not sure it is valid, but interesting.

[greybeard]

That is an interesting transitive approach. I'm not sure it is valid, but interesting.

Very impressive.

[Bob Green]

Dawkins scored 12 in the 1st half against Wake Forest to raise his total to 966 points. He needs 34 more points to hit 1000. I'd like to see him drive the ball a couple more times in the second half as he earned a couple of trips to the foul line in the first half. Those free throws add up. :D

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Dawkins scored 12 in the 1st half against Wake Forest to raise his total to 966 points. He needs 34 more points to hit 1000. I'd like to see him drive the ball a couple more times in the second half as he earned a couple of trips to the foul line in the first half. Those free throws add up. :D

as do the fouls that the drives cause

[striker219]

I recall they had to replace his jersey something like three times during his senior year from getting stretched out of shape with all the holding.

-jk

That's per game, right? I was only lucky enough to see Duke in person a few times that year, but from what I remember he was physically abused basically every time they were on offense, every game, all year long. Which makes what he accomplished that much more impressive.

[Olympic Fan]

Andre finished with 17 points against Wake to get to 971 points in his career ... 29 to go.

With four made 3-pointers in the game, he raised his career total to 222. That passes Jeff Capel (220) for No. 9 on the Duke career list and leaves him one behind Seth Curry (223) for No. 8. Then a big gap to Shane Battier at No. 7 (246).

By hitting 4 of 7 3-point tries against Wake, Andre improved his career 3-point percentage to .418 (222 of 531) to break a tie with Battier for fourth on the career 3-point percentage list. A couple of more good games could push him past Seth Curry (.420) into third place. At this point, second place -- Trajan Langdon at .426 -- is a longshot.

[NovaScotian]

well the fact that Hansfeetwilltravel has had a resoundingly mediocre NBA career vs. JJ's rather accomplished career indicate the value obtained by not having the officials give you half of your career points.


With very few fouls called. But we get all the calls, right?


JJ was battered and bruised after every game with hardly any fouls being called. But the" bull in a china shop" just down the street(hanstravel) was given the benefit of each contact made against him. Free throw after free throw given. Therefore there should be an * by the ACC career scoring leader's name.:cool: GoDuke!

let's not kid ourselves: jj led the acc in free throws twice. he's fifth all time in attempts, and shelden is third. and though tyler is #1 in both makes and attempts, his free throws only account for ~1/3 of his total points.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jj-redick-1.html

while tyler's nba career has yet to take off, it took jj at least as many years as tyler has been in the association before he was really a meaningful part of the magic.


also, go andre! i for one think he can catch battier. there's a lot of season left!

[MChambers]

Dawkins scored 14 in the painful loss to Syracuse to raise his total to 954 points with 9 games left in the regular season.
Early on, he and Rasheed subbed in for Quinn and Tyler, to create that lineup you propose (and which intrigues me). Unfortunately, it didn't do particularly well. Not sure if that lineup was used again last night or not.

[blUDAYvil]

At this point, second place -- Trajan Langdon at .426 -- is a longshot.

Good thing Dre's good at making those.

[Dukehky]

But the kids do watch. Gotta Watch what we say. Gotta work everyday.
Gotta not be cliche.
Gotta ball out like Andre 3K.

Dre is dropping bombs.

[Bob Green]

Andre finished with 17 points against Wake to get to 971 points in his career ... 29 to go.

Andre scored four points in the Maryland 1st half so he needs 25 more.

[Bob Green]

With six points in the 1st half of the GT game, Dawkins is up to 982 career points - 18 more to 1000!

[Kfanarmy]

With six points in the 1st half of the GT game, Dawkins is up to 982 career points - 18 more to 1000! I hope he passes it in the next one by 10 or so!

[Bob Green]

Dawkins has 987 career points now. After having three strong shooting performances in a row against Pittsburgh, Syracuse and Wake Forest (combined 14-23 on 3 PT FG), he has struggled the past few games with his deep shot:

Carolina: 0-3
Georgia Tech: 2-3
Maryland: 1-4
Boston College: 0-1

Hopefully, he will snap out of it soon with the recent rest and recuperation (positive spin on decreased playing time) Coach K has provided. We need Dawkins providing an offensive spark off the bench.

[richardjackson199]

Dawkins has 987 career points now. After having three strong shooting performances in a row against Pittsburgh, Syracuse and Wake Forest (combined 14-23 on 3 PT FG), he has struggled the past few games with his deep shot:

Carolina: 0-3
Georgia Tech: 2-3
Maryland: 1-4
Boston College: 0-1

Hopefully, he will snap out of it soon with the recent rest and recuperation (positive spin on decreased playing time) Coach K has provided. We need Dawkins providing an offensive spark off the bench.

I agree. Like many, I also would have liked to see Dawkins play more in the 2nd half of his last UNC game in the Dean Dome against that zone. He has shown he is more than capable of providing offensive spark off the bench. Sulaimon seems especially adept at finding him for gorgeous assists. Dawkins is a senior, and he's better than Leslie McDonald.

[Bob Green]

Dawkins scored three points tonight on 1-4 shooting to raise his career points total to 990. He continues to struggle with his shot, which is worrisome as we will really need his offensive punch down the stretch run.

[MCFinARL]

Dawkins scored three points tonight on 1-4 shooting to raise his career points total to 990. He continues to struggle with his shot, which is worrisome as we will really need his offensive punch down the stretch run.

Yes--although, really, shot for shot, tonight was not that bad. The first shot was inexplicably way off, but the second was good and the third was a decent shot that was a bit too hard and started in but bounced out. (I may have reversed 2 and 3.) The fourth, I think, was touched by a defender.

I agree that, going forward, a fully effective Andre who can come in and offer instant offense would make a huge difference, especially in the tournaments. Maybe the week-long break will give him a chance to get some extra shots up and feel more relaxed on the court; I suspect the shortening of his minutes in the last few games may make it a little harder for the shots to fall.

I am one of the many people on this board who count Andre Dawkins as one of their favorite players on the team; I would love to see him have a big finish to his Duke career. Will be rooting for him, though, no matter what.

[Furniture]

It's pre 1000 nerves...

[MCFinARL]

It's pre 1000 nerves...

Could be, if he is thinking about that--those last few points might be hard to come by. But I hope he is not thinking about it too much and I imagine he is being encouraged not to (if only by coaches not talking about it).

[jv001]

Could be, if he is thinking about that--those last few points might be hard to come by. But I hope he is not thinking about it too much and I imagine he is being encouraged not to (if only by coaches not talking about it).

Does it look like, he's not getting good screens or is he not using the screens properly? I can't remember which game it was that he had some really good screens up top, but they were precise and he really came off of them in perfect manner. Nothing but net. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

Does it look like, he's not getting good screens or is he not using the screens properly? I can't remember which game it was that he had some really good screens up top, but they were precise and he really came off of them in perfect manner. Nothing but net. GoDuke!

When he was going well, he worked really hard to get open and the team made a concerted effort to get him open and get him the ball. He was one of our top options when he was on the floor. The last few games it has looked more like past years when he stood around more and the team often ignored him; he was a secondary option, almost a safety valve. At least that's how it has looked to me, and it's a huge difference.

[nocilla]

When he was going well, he worked really hard to get open and the team made a concerted effort to get him open and get him the ball. He was one of our top options when he was on the floor. The last few games it has looked more like past years when he stood around more and the team often ignored him; he was a secondary option, almost a safety valve. At least that's how it has looked to me, and it's a huge difference.

I think part of that was the zone defenses. When facing MTM defense he does need to keep moving to try and lose his defender. Against a zone I think he hangs out around the perimeter waiting for ball movement. Although I do remember when he came in during the 2nd half of the UNC game, Coach K gave him the rolling hand over hand movement which I interpreted as 'keep moving'. Of course UNC went away from the zone shortly after Andre came in and then he went back to the bench.

[MCFinARL]

Apparently one of the things Coach K wants to work on over the mini-break is the rotation, with a particular focus on figuring out how to make the most effective use of Quinn and Andre--at least according to Billy Dat's report of the post-game presser in the post-game thread (haven't had time to listen to this yet myself). So we may see some more opportunities for Andre to take and make good shots when he is on the court going forward.

It's possible Andre tends to stand still more when he senses that his primary role is as decoy rather than shooter--not to say it still wouldn't be better for him to be moving. I also think Andre may have lost some minutes lately because, with Marshall playing more, Rodney can stay at the 3 for more of the game. As that has been happening over this last very busy period, there hasn't been time to make adjustments to redefine Andre's role when he is on the court.

And the break will also allow Andre--as well as Tyler and Quinn, both of whom missed most of their outside shots last night--to focus on their shooting.

[Bob Green]

With seven points against Wake, Dawkins' career total sits at 997 points.

[pfrduke]

With seven points against Wake, Dawkins' career total sits at 997 points.

Nothing is guaranteed, I suppose, but hitting 1,000 on senior night against Carolina is pretty darn cool. I hope the crowd shows the appropriate level of enthusiasm when that happens - Andre sure deserves it.

[Bob Green]

A big congratulations to Andre Dawkins who raised his career points total to 1,005 by scoring eight points against Carolina on Senior Night!

[DukieInBrasil]

A big congratulations to Andre Dawkins who raised his career points total to 1,005 by scoring eight points against Carolina on Senior Night!

Yes, big congrats to Dre for sticking with it, working through his problems, taking that year away to make himself right, coming back and playing with passion and love for the game again. 1000 points is no trifle and no matter what options Dre has as far as professional ball go, he can be satisfied that he scored 1000 points at (one of) the finest basketball program(s) in the country and got a great education at the same time. Congratulations, Dre! I'm glad that you worked things out, worked on becoming a better player, and worked on becoming a better man. Well done!

[Olympic Fan]

10. Daniel Ewing (217)
9. Jeff Capel (220)
8. Seth Curry (223)
7. Shane Battier (246)
6. Bobby Hurley (264)
5. Kyle Singler (267)
4. Jon Scheyer (297)
3. Jason Williams (313)
2. Trajan Langdon (342)
1. JJ Redick (457)

My guess is Andre ends up #8, or possibly #7 if a lot of things go right. That said, it's a pretty nice list to be a part of.

With his one 3-pointer against UNC, Andre upped his career total to 228 ... that's good for 8th place. Unless he goes nuts in postseason (love to see that happen!) he's probably not going to catch Shane for No. 7.

BTW ... Now that Andre has gotten to 1,000, that puts Quinn Cook on the clock -- he's at 926 points after the UNC game. It's possible he could get it this year if Duke lasts long enough in postseason.

[gep]

Yes, big congrats to Dre for sticking with it, working through his problems, taking that year away to make himself right, coming back and playing with passion and love for the game again. 1000 points is no trifle and no matter what options Dre has as far as professional ball go, he can be satisfied that he scored 1000 points at (one of) the finest basketball program(s) in the country and got a great education at the same time. Congratulations, Dre! I'm glad that you worked things out, worked on becoming a better player, and worked on becoming a better man. Well done!

And... as someone else posted elsewhere... Andre chose Duke TWICE!!!

On another note(s), is there any video of the senior introductions before the game? And, during the game, the announcers were talking about the special on Andre... anyone know where to see it again?

[bedeviled]

the announcers were talking about the special on Andre... anyone know where to see it again?Any video clip with Andre is special, but perhaps you are referring to this one (6 minutes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8xV2stWdiQ

[gep]

Any video clip with Andre is special, but perhaps you are referring to this one (6 minutes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8xV2stWdiQ

YES.... I think that's it, based on the still pictures they flashed during the game. THANK YOU!!!!

[Bob Green]

Dawkins is up to 1,014 career points now after scoring nine points on 3-5 shooting behind the arc in the ACCCG. Hopefully, his performance earned him increased playing time in the NCAAT. We need his ability to light up the scoreboard on the court.

[MCFinARL]

Dawkins is up to 1,014 career points now after scoring nine points on 3-5 shooting behind the arc in the ACCCG. Hopefully, his performance earned him increased playing time in the NCAAT. We need his ability to light up the scoreboard on the court.

Couldn't agree more--and his ability to draw defenders opens up more room for Jabari, Rodney et al. Thanks for keeping on top of the points total.