Will Graves arrested at home owned by Roy Williams

[plimnko]

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=9359530

[Bob Green]

Maybe Roy Williams will suspend himself while gathering all the facts:



Former UNC basketball player Will Graves is facing drug charges in Chapel Hill after an arrest at a property owned by UNC basketball coach Roy Williams.

[DukieInKansas]

Maybe Roy Williams will suspend himself while gathering all the facts:

Will he need to run extra and not be able to pick the restaurant for team maels?

[allenmurray]

So, Roy Williams hired a player he kicked off the team for bad behavior to be his video coordinator. Then he rented him a house. Brilliant.

[royalblue]

Was that the place to hang out during the no show classes? I'm thinking of writing a book called, "the Carolina way"

[OldPhiKap]

Absent more facts, it kinda looks like Roy was trying to help the kid get on his feet. That fact that Graves still had some ties to UNC despite being kicked off the team sounds to me like Roy throwing him a bone to help. Not sure what drew the cops to the property, but it does not sound like anything beyond personal use. Certainly less sensational than the headline, which Roy must hate:

"Drug bust at home owned by UNC coach Roy Williams"

Putting aside the fact that it's just another headache for a man who could retire to the beach, I don't see much here.

(Of course, I said that after PJ got cited in Durham too -- so maybe I won't jump the gun [as it were] too soon here).

[Bluedog]

So, Roy Williams hired a player he kicked off the team for bad behavior to be his video coordinator. Then he rented him a house. Brilliant.

I don't think Roy really dismissed Graves by choice, but rather was forced to after drug and academic issues...Roy sounds pretty upset when he "decides" to dismiss him:

"I hate this for Will. He worked extremely hard this summer to get himself physically in the best shape he’s been in years. This is a huge blow to our team, but an even bigger blow for Will. Playing for the Tar Heels meant so much to him.”


According to multiple sources close to the UNC program, Graves’ suspension was delivered shortly after he had failed a drug test, testing positive for marijuana...In addition, his academic track record was often less than sparkling as well. As one former teammate noted: “I think he failed Swahili. Everyone on the team takes that class and I’m pretty sure Will was the first one to fail.”

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5659504
http://blogs.fayobserver.com/accbasketball/October-2010/The-deeper-story-behind-Graves%E2%80%99-dismissal-%281%29

[Li_Duke]

I don't think Roy really dismissed Graves by choice, but rather was forced to after drug and academic issues...Roy sounds pretty upset when he "decides" to dismiss him:

"I hate this for Will. He worked extremely hard this summer to get himself physically in the best shape he’s been in years. This is a huge blow to our team, but an even bigger blow for Will. Playing for the Tar Heels meant so much to him.”

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5659504
http://blogs.fayobserver.com/accbasketball/October-2010/The-deeper-story-behind-Graves%E2%80%99-dismissal-%281%29

I think Roy felt guilty about having to dismiss Will Graves from the team and was "trying to do right by him". He gave him a job and his house to live in so Graves could finish his degree. Unfortunately, the move backfired.

Considering this and the PJ Hairston incidents, I think Roy needs a little more tough love to go with his compassion.

[TruBlu]

Any pictures of cars rented by Fats parked in the driveway?
Did any tutors or agents reside there?
Did the house have a "classroom" for AFAM studies?
Were bootleg mouthpieces being made in the basement?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Reilly]

Any pictures of cars rented by Fats parked in the driveway?
Did any tutors or agents reside there?
Did the house have a "classroom" for AFAM studies?
Were bootleg mouthpieces being made in the basement?

Inquiring minds want to know.

How many jars of peanut butter and cans of black pepper were found?

[loran16]

Yeah guys, this is pretty much nothing. Graves is at Roy's house while Graves finishes his degree. Pretty admirable from Roy, assuming Roy isn't charging him full price lol!

[FerryFor50]

Yeah guys, this is pretty much nothing. Graves is at Roy's house while Graves finishes his degree. Pretty admirable from Roy, assuming Roy isn't charging him full price lol!

Yea, definitely nothing by itself. But when you add it in with all the other things going on, then you make one of two conclusions:

1) Roy is a gullible putz
2) Roy has some shady workings going on

I think it's closer to 1 than 2, but you do have to wonder how he keeps making the same mistakes on character judgment.

[Reilly]

So now we got Roy tied to guns (BB) and drugs (his home) ... no wonder he didn't think PJ's alleged transgressions warranted much.

These Chapel Hill gangstas.

[conmanlhughes]

I feel a sense of vertigo coming on...

[Papa John]

This could all be more innocent than we think... Perhaps the weed was actually Roy's medical marijuana prescription to help him deal with the hypertension resulting from the ongoing PJ situation?

[watzone]

Roy >Heisenberg

[OldPhiKap]

Roy >Heisenberg

At least Heisenberg had principles. As uncertain as they may have been.

[OldSchool]

Will asked Roy if it was okay if he handled the weed at Roy's house.

Will was a little puzzled when Roy said that'd be great, the trimmer's in the garage.

[Merlindevildog91]

So how much does a part-time student, part-time video coordinator get paid, to afford to rent a house that size? Could there be an improper benefit somewhere buried in there?

I'm sure the NCAA will say, "nothing to see here," and go on.

Curious as to why the police were there, but betting they smelled "an odor consistent with the smell of marijuana" (borrowing a line from the police reports that come through our office). The amount of marijuana isn't much, but as the law is, any amount is illegal.

[Edouble]

So how much does a part-time student, part-time video coordinator get paid, to afford to rent a house that size? Could there be an improper benefit somewhere buried in there?

I'm sure the NCAA will say, "nothing to see here," and go on.

Curious as to why the police were there, but betting they smelled "an odor consistent with the smell of marijuana" (borrowing a line from the police reports that come through our office). The amount of marijuana isn't much, but as the law is, any amount is illegal.

Can't be an improper benefit. Graves isn't on the basketball team. He's a paid employee. Roy could let him stay there for free if he wanted to.

[Merlindevildog91]

Can't be an improper benefit. Graves isn't on the basketball team. He's a paid employee. Roy could let him stay there for free if he wanted to.

Au contraire.

This is from the Boise State athletic website, regarding NCAA rules.

http://www.broncoathleticassociation.com/ncaa-donor-guide/

Money quote:

An ENROLLED STUDENT-ATHLETE is… a student who presently is participating in athletics or has completed his/her eligibility but is still enrolled at the institution.

And, IIRC, Ol Roy got in trouble at Kansas for giving gifts to graduating players.

[OldPhiKap]

Au contraire.

This is from the Boise State athletic website, regarding NCAA rules.

http://www.broncoathleticassociation.com/ncaa-donor-guide/

Money quote:

An ENROLLED STUDENT-ATHLETE is… a student who presently is participating in athletics or has completed his/her eligibility but is still enrolled at the institution.

And, IIRC, Ol Roy got in trouble at Kansas for giving gifts to graduating players.

Graves is not a participating athlete, is he?

[Duvall]

Graves is not a participating athlete, is he?

No, but he is enrolled at the university. Or was, during the last semester. I don't know if that provision is supposed to apply to an athlete that leaves school but comes back later to take classes.

[OldPhiKap]

No, but he is enrolled at the university. Or was, during the last semester. I don't know if that provision is supposed to apply to an athlete that leaves school but comes back later to take classes.

Haven't we had grad school assistant coaches?

I do not think this is a benefits issue but NCAA compliance is a monster on to its own.

[FerryFor50]

No, but he is enrolled at the university. Or was, during the last semester. I don't know if that provision is supposed to apply to an athlete that leaves school but comes back later to take classes.

Must have been a real thorough investigation by the NCAA if they missed that one...

[Wheat/"/"/"]

After reading many posts around here for over 15 years, I feel confident there are some pretty responsible people here that try to contribute positively to people around them in their day to day lives.

And I'll wager every one of you I'm talking about has seen some disappointment from people you've tried to help out over the years.

I know it's happened to me, time and again. Doing good things does not guarantee good results.

I applaud coach Williams for not being so petty from the multiple mistakes Graves made and for standing by a player that he thinks he can help.

The easy way out would have been to wash his hands of the kid.

My personal opinion...As far as any potential NCAA crap, screw them if they attempt to get petty. This is not some case of benefits to advance a program.

[Merlindevildog91]

Graves is not a participating athlete, is he?

If he is still enrolled in the school, he is covered by the rules. And maybe even if he isn't....

Another fun quote:

" [Ol Roy] Williams said. "I did not know the rule that once you're a student-athlete, you are a student-athlete until death."

http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840

[BD80]

Graves is not a participating athlete, is he?

Is he still on athletic scholarship?

[OldPhiKap]

If he is still enrolled in the school, he is covered by the rules. And maybe even if he isn't....

Another fun quote:

" [Ol Roy] Williams said. "I did not know the rule that once you're a student-athlete, you are a student-athlete until death."

http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840

That looks like it was gifts to players within a month or two of completing their senior season. Graves was a part-time employee who was neither on scholarship nor on the roster. Nor has he been for several years.

I could be wrong -- and will laugh if I am -- but I just don't see how this should be a violation.

[OldPhiKap]

Is he still on athletic scholarship?

I am assuming not, although if so that obviously changes things.

[Duvall]

That looks like it was gifts to players within a month or two of completing their senior season. Graves was a part-time employee who was neither on scholarship nor on the roster. Nor has he been for several years.

I could be wrong -- and will laugh if I am -- but I just don't see how this should be a violation.

I agree that it shouldn't be a violation. Still, I'm curious about where the line is actually drawn.

[royalblue]

I hope they were not drawing any lines at the house

[PackMan97]

Haven't we had grad school assistant coaches?

I do not think this is a benefits issue but NCAA compliance is a monster on to its own.

I was not aware that Graves had in fact graduated and is attending Graduate School.

Question, if he hasn't graduated wouldn't him dropping out count against UNC's APR? I guess nothing wrong with a coach setting up a dropout with a $600k house and a job to make sure he stays eligible and doesn't. Ruin the team APR.

While we are on that, anyone want to guess why PJ and Leslie haven't been told they are done yet? When do fall exams end?

[OldPhiKap]

I agree that it shouldn't be a violation. Still, I'm curious about where the line is actually drawn.

Me too. Agreed that Roy's quote would really be funny if this was a violation though.


I hope they were not drawing any lines at the house

Oh my.

[arnie]

After reading many posts around here for over 15 years, I feel confident there are some pretty responsible people here that try to contribute positively to people around them in their day to day lives.

And I'll wager every one of you I'm talking about has seen some disappointment from people you've tried to help out over the years.

I know it's happened to me, time and again. Doing good things does not guarantee good results.

I applaud coach Williams for not being so petty from the multiple mistakes Graves made and for standing by a player that he thinks he can help.

The easy way out would have been to wash his hands of the kid.

My personal opinion...As far as any potential NCAA crap, screw them if they attempt to get petty. This is not some case of benefits to advance a program.

Probably not a violation. But an effective recruiting tool: if you play ball for me, you don't have to attend classes, you can drive luxury cars owned by friends of the program and I'll rent you an estate home for peanuts after your playin days are over.

[devildeac]

I agree that it shouldn't be a violation. Still, I'm curious about where the line is actually drawn.


I hope they were not drawing any lines at the house

Unless they're police lines...

[Dukeface88]

“I think he failed Swahili. Everyone on the team takes that class and I’m pretty sure Will was the first one to fail.”



....


I thought you were kidding, but that's an actual quote. I have no words.

[Merlindevildog91]

My understanding is, once a student-athlete, always a student-athlete, and therefore impermissible benefits rules still apply.

The NCAA strains at gnats and swallows camels. Were I to be invited to the wedding of a former student-athlete, it is possible that the NCAA could make me prove that the gift I bought was consistent with the gifts I normally bought for weddings.

[OldSchool]

Will: Hey Coach, thanks for letting me live at your house. Is it a problem if I handle the weed here?

Roy: A problem? Of course not! That would be great - the trimmer's in the garage.

Will: Say whaaa? No no, Coach, I don't think you get me. What I'm saying is, is it okay if I bring a little pot here?

Roy: Well, I guess if you need to. I didn't know you liked to cook! But we probably already got whatever you need in the kitchen.

Will: Coach, what I'm saying is, sometimes I need me a blunt.

Roy: Blunt? Of course Will, you don't need to mince words around me. It's Ol' Roy! Just say what's on your mind.

Will: Coach, I'm talking ganja, spliff, bud, doobage,...

Roy: Whoa! Hold on, now, I only speak English and that not very well. Oh, and by the way, Will, my only rule is: I don't want to hear about any tetrahydrocannabinol at the house.

Will: Tetras what? Uhh, no prob. I don't do those nerd games, Coach - I play NBA2K and I'm in Halo Nation!

Roy: Huh? If I were you Will, I wouldn't get my hopes up about playing in the NBA. But if you've turned over a new leaf, congratulations, and as I like to say, have a Coke and a smile, Will!

Will: Coke? Man, Coach is hard-core...

[throatybeard]

I hope they were not drawing any lines at the house

And we all in line in the bathroom...

I wish my students had a free $600K house to go back to when they flunk the advanced Grammar class. That might even get you into the Clayton school district around here, if you wanted to start a family or something.

[mapleleafdevil]

After reading many posts around here for over 15 years, I feel confident there are some pretty responsible people here that try to contribute positively to people around them in their day to day lives.

And I'll wager every one of you I'm talking about has seen some disappointment from people you've tried to help out over the years.

I know it's happened to me, time and again. Doing good things does not guarantee good results.

I applaud coach Williams for not being so petty from the multiple mistakes Graves made and for standing by a player that he thinks he can help.

The easy way out would have been to wash his hands of the kid.

My personal opinion...As far as any potential NCAA crap, screw them if they attempt to get petty. This is not some case of benefits to advance a program.

Agree. As much as I would love for Old Roy to get caught doing something improper, it seems to me like he was just trying to help a kid out. Good for him.

[weezie]

Agree. As much as I would love for Old Roy to get caught doing something improper, it seems to me like he was just trying to help a kid out. Good for him.

yeah, I guess you can't blame a guy for being a nitwit in his dealings with an idiot.

[OldPhiKap]

And we all in line in the bathroom...

I wish my students had a free $600K house to go back to when they flunk the advanced Grammar class. That might even get you into the Clayton school district around here, if you wanted to start a family or something.

Is $600k from a report, or a prior poster?

[Edouble]

Is $600k from a report, or a prior poster?

It's from a report, I believe. Give or take $100K, the house is nice. It's not like he's living in Roy's friend's basement apartment.

As far as Roy not knowing that a student athlete is a student athlete for life (paraphrasing), the buck stops with Roy. It's not his job to know all of the NCAA rulebook, but it his responsibility to surround himself with good people that advise him on these matters. UNC Athletic Dept. compliance officer, an assistant coach who knows the rules backwards and forwards, whatever... I'm a little tired of Roy always shucking responsibility. He's at the helm. The captain goes down with the ship.

It makes sense too. If every graduating player from a given program got a $100,000 and a Lexus after leaving the program, you would see a lot more kids wanting to play for that team.

[mdj]

Agree. As much as I would love for Old Roy to get caught doing something improper, it seems to me like he was just trying to help a kid out. Good for him.

This. I've had coaches and teachers who would give me the shirt off their back. Roy shouldn't be ridiculed for this IMO.

[OldPhiKap]

It's from a report, I believe. Give or take $100K, the house is nice. It's not like he's living in Roy's friend's basement apartment.

As far as Roy not knowing that a student athlete is a student athlete for life (paraphrasing), the buck stops with Roy. It's not his job to know all of the NCAA rulebook, but it his responsibility to surround himself with good people that advise him on these matters. UNC Athletic Dept. compliance officer, an assistant coach who knows the rules backwards and forwards, whatever... I'm a little tired of Roy always shucking responsibility. He's at the helm. The captain goes down with the ship.

It makes sense too. If every graduating player from a given program got a $100,000 and a Lexus after leaving the program, you would see a lot more kids wanting to play for that team.

Thanks, would like a link to the report.

As far as the rest, that would be a huge blunder at Roy's feet if a violation. Which is why I cannot believe that it is. Compliance would not let the guy work for the program, or allow the rental arrangement.

I do not really respect Roy, but this would be just blatant stupidity if a violation. Roy is a stubborn goofy cornball whack job but he ain't dumb.

I think he was trying to help a troubled former player, and this is an unfortunate public fail. To the extent a mid-twenties dude with some pot is a fail.

Edit to add: after heading to IC, sad that I am giving more benefit of doubt than most Carolina posters. "SMH" as the post-hip kids say.

[-jk]

Is $600k from a report, or a prior poster?

Property valuation for tax purposes is public record. It's a little over $630K.

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

Property valuation for tax purposes is public record. It's a little over $630K.

-jk

Thanks! Lawyers always like to know sources. Old habit by now.

Tax values, btw, are notoriously low. Most folks would not sell their house for the equalized tax assessment.

Assuming a seven year return, market rent would, estimated, be about ($630k / 86 months =) $7,500 a month. Ignoring tax and utilities. Not sure what the market comparables would be, but then again most properties of that value are not rentals. Even assuming a 33% discount for no real reason! that's still a $60k/yr rental.

Better way is to figure mortgage: $630k for 30 years at market = north of $3k-$4k a month. Even just amortizing taxes and utilities, if the house was free and clear, is a stout payment.

I am sure that Roy is willing to clarify all of this before the Kentucky game, by gum.

[sagegrouse]

As someone else suggested to me, mj violations and mj smoke are a dime a dozen in most cities -- and especially in a college town. The Chapel Hill police would do nothing else if every single one were investigated.

Perhaps there was a suspicion, possibly a report, of something more serious?

sage

[WillJ]

Make fun of Ol' Roy for speaking of himself in the third person? And for just, you know, working for UNC? By all means. But this just reflects badly on Will Graves, not on Roy.

[BD80]

Property valuation for tax purposes is public record. It's a little over $630K.

-jk

Why does ol' roy have an extra $600k house on Pinehurst Drive sitting around available to rent out to a guy who works part-time as a video coordinator?


When did news reports begin using the term "blunt" instead of "cigarette?"


The property looks to be pretty secluded from the news video, surrounded by woods, why were the police at the house to smell marijuana?

[53n206]

We will probably never know the details of why allowed Graves to occcupy the home. Pot is legal in Washington and Colorado, but not in 48 states. As soon as the feds find a good way to tax marijuana it will probably be legal in all 50. I think of all the bad people who went to jail for gambling--really bad guys--while gambling legal in Nevada--good guys. By the way, I do not think using pot is a good thing. Any did Graves do such a bad thing?
The key here is Coach Williams. I don't think for a minute that he knew Graves was using. He probably just wanted to help him. Good for Roy.

[J.Blink]

Tax values, btw, are notoriously low. Most folks would not sell their house for the equalized tax assessment.

Assuming a seven year return, market rent would, estimated, be about ($630k / 86 months =) $7,500 a month. Ignoring tax and utilities. Not sure what the market comparables would be, but then again most properties of that value are not rentals. Even assuming a 33% discount for no real reason! that's still a $60k/yr rental.


You're definitely right about tax valuations in many parts of the country, but that's not been my experience in Durham and surrounding areas.

I found that the address of the pot den is 1016 Pinehurst (src (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/former-unc-player-cited-for-drugs-at-williams-owned-home/13214249/)). It's a really nice area--near the country club and Brixx pizza!

Zillow estimates the value of the house--a 3 bed, 2 bath, 2300 sq ft--at 535k (src (http://www.zillow.com/homes/1016-Pinehurst-Drive_rb/)). The current owner--Roy--bought on 10/18/2005 for $400,000.

The current tax valuation is $633,106 (Orange County tax (http://server2.co.orange.nc.us/OrangeNCGIS/default.aspx?pin=9798587202)).

Also, I was interested in your rent calculations. I rent out a house I own in Durham (ok, so marketwise a bit less desirable than Chapel Hill). I bought the house for 150k, and the highest rental rate I've charged has been $1,100 a month. By your calculation -- 150k / 86 = ~$1,750 / month. Maybe I need to raise the rent!! :)

[OldPhiKap]

You're definitely right about tax valuations in many parts of the country, but that's not been my experience in Durham and surrounding areas.

I found that the address of the pot den is 1016 Pinehurst (src (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/former-unc-player-cited-for-drugs-at-williams-owned-home/13214249/)). It's a really nice area--near the country club and Brixx pizza!

Zillow estimates the value of the house--a 3 bed, 2 bath, 2300 sq ft--at 535k (src (http://www.zillow.com/homes/1016-Pinehurst-Drive_rb/)). The current owner--Roy--bought on 10/18/2005 for $400,000.

The current tax valuation is $633,106 (Orange County tax (http://server2.co.orange.nc.us/OrangeNCGIS/default.aspx?pin=9798587202)).

Also, I was interested in your rent calculations. I rent out a house I own in Durham (ok, so marketwise a bit less desirable than Chapel Hill). I bought the house for 150k, and the highest rental rate I've charged has been $1,100 a month. By your calculation -- 150k / 86 = ~$1,750 / month. Maybe I need to raise the rent!! :)

I am more familiar with rental values for commercial property, which uses a cap rate of 8% - 12%.

Residential, if your annual rent covers annual mortgage plus tax plus included utilities, you break even if there is no depreciation or repair. In actuality, market rent is hopefully enough to cover the above plus wear/tear plus some profit.

Using your actual market experience, if a $150k house rents for $1.1k/month what should a house worth some multiple of that rent for before we figure the location adjustment? (Not sure how long ago you bought the property, that obviously makes a difference). Somewhere between double and quadruple I guess. So that's $2.2k-$4.4k/mo. And the low end would assume that you bought that property a long time ago.

Again, though, that's from the income approach -- the comparable market is what it is. But houses in the $600k range are rarely rental homes outside of MUCH frothier markets.

I am not a RE appraiser or broker though -- would defer to those who are.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

University of North Carolina Athletic Communications
Dec. 13, 2013

Statement from former Tar Heel men's basketball player Will Graves:


"I would like to offer my sincerest apologies to Coach Williams, his family, and the University of North Carolina as well as my own family and friends for the negative attention I have brought upon them. I can blame only myself for my own stupid actions. Coach Williams has stood up for me on numerous occasions and it causes me great turmoil to let him down in this way. He gave me an opportunity to finish my degree this semester and I have successfully achieved that goal, which was a lifelong dream for my family and me. Unfortunately, I have no urge to celebrate that accomplishment because of the situation I brought upon myself. I understand my actions were wrong and I take full and complete responsibility for them and am extremely remorseful for that. I plan on continuing to pursue my career as a professional basketball player and again wish to send my most sincere apologies to Coach Williams, the Carolina family and my family, as well."

Forever a Tar Heel,
Will Graves

[OldPhiKap]

University of North Carolina Athletic Communications
Dec. 13, 2013

Statement from former Tar Heel men's basketball player Will Graves:


"I am sorry that I got caught. Coach Williams gave me a chance to redeem myself, and i screwed him. I want you to believe that I have not and would never, never, ever have smoked pot again, except for having finally punched my diploma ticket at UNC. Yay, me! But man, now it is a real bummer for y'all that I got snagged. My bad. I've got future plans, though, so sorry y'all but I'm headed to Europe."

Forever a Tar Heel,
Will Graves

Translated it for you.

I feel bad for Roy as stated in several posts above, but Will screwed Roy. No sympathy for him, and shame on him for trying to dodge it. Resign and get the hell out of Chapel Hill.

[richardjackson199]

University of North Carolina Athletic Communications
Dec. 13, 2013

Statement from former Tar Heel men's basketball player Will Graves:


"I would like to offer my sincerest apologies to Coach Williams, his family, and the University of North Carolina as well as my own family and friends for the negative attention I have brought upon them. I can blame only myself for my own stupid actions. Coach Williams has stood up for me on numerous occasions and it causes me great turmoil to let him down in this way. He gave me an opportunity to finish my degree this semester and I have successfully achieved that goal, which was a lifelong dream for my family and me. Unfortunately, I have no urge to celebrate that accomplishment because of the situation I brought upon myself. I understand my actions were wrong and I take full and complete responsibility for them and am extremely remorseful for that. I plan on continuing to pursue my career as a professional basketball player and again wish to send my most sincere apologies to Coach Williams, the Carolina family and my family, as well."

Forever a Tar Heel,
Will Graves

If Will Graves really wrote that, I guess he did better in English than Swahili

[OldPhiKap]

If Will Graves really wrote that, I guess he did better in English than Swahili

'Nasikitika kwamba mimi got hawakupata. Kocha Williams alinipa nafasi ya kuwakomboa mwenyewe, na i alikuwa kujamiiana naye. Mimi nataka wewe kuamini kuwa mimi si na kamwe, kamwe, milele na kuvuta dawa za kulevya tena, ila kwa kuwa hatimaye walimpiga diploma yangu tiketi UNC. Kubwa kwa ajili yangu! Lakini mtu, sasa ni bummer ya kweli kwa kuwa mimi got hawakupata katika tendo kuvunja sheria. My mbaya. I have got mipango ya baadaye, hivyo mimi kusema pole kwa wote yenu lakini mimi inaongozwa na Ulaya.

Best I could do, I was a Poly. Sci. / History major north of Chapel Hill.

[FerryFor50]

University of North Carolina Athletic Communications
Dec. 13, 2013

Statement from former Tar Heel men's basketball player Will Graves:


"I would like to offer my sincerest apologies to Coach Williams, his family, and the University of North Carolina as well as my own family and friends for the negative attention I have brought upon them. I can blame only myself for my own stupid actions. Coach Williams has stood up for me on numerous occasions and it causes me great turmoil to let him down in this way. He gave me an opportunity to finish my degree this semester and I have successfully achieved that goal, which was a lifelong dream for my family and me. Unfortunately, I have no urge to celebrate that accomplishment because of the situation I brought upon myself. I understand my actions were wrong and I take full and complete responsibility for them and am extremely remorseful for that. I plan on continuing to pursue my career as a professional basketball player and again wish to send my most sincere apologies to Coach Williams, the Carolina family and my family, as well."

Forever a Tar Heel,
Will Graves

I do hear it makes you tired and lethargic...

[Reilly]

... the address of the pot den ...

The NY Post needs to start a Chapel Hill edition ... I just wish a gal had been there w/ Graves, and we could refer to her as a moll ....

[Reilly]

From the article linked by JBlink: "A meter reader with the utility company called police after assessing the house that was thought to be vacant but suspected somebody was living at the residence."

Seems a bit odd. Just read the meter. People aren't allowed to live in residences, or start living there? Wonder if the meter reader saw somebody going in or out of the residence (say, a young black man) who the reader did not think belonged at a $630K house near a golf course. Was the power not hooked up and Graves was squatting? Or, if the power was hooked up ... then how is it suspicious that it's being used?

[Bob Green]

Did Will Graves not understand marijuana is against the law?


The arrest report said Graves gave police permission to search the house, at 1016 Pinehurst Drive in The Oaks subdivision in Chapel Hill.

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/12/13/3457810/former-unc-basketball-player-will.html#storylink=cpy

Denying police permission to search the house and flushing the very small amounts of illegal stuff, while they are off getting a search warrant, which probably would have been denied seems like a much smarter coarse of action.

[BD80]

Did Will Graves not understand marijuana is against the law?



Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/12/13/3457810/former-unc-basketball-player-will.html#storylink=cpy

Denying police permission to search the house and flushing the very small amounts of illegal stuff, while they are off getting a search warrant, which probably would have been denied seems like a much smarter coarse of action.

"Steve Kirschner, a UNC athletic department spokesman, ... told the Associated Press that Williams has allowed people to stay at the home periodically. "

I may be the suspicious sort, but this sounds "sketchy" to me. Is it a place big donors can stay when they visit and play golf? Get away from wives? Inquiring minds ...

Yes, he is a private citizen, and what ol' roy does with his money is his bizness, but he is also a state employee and taxpayers want to know what they're paying for. Well, at least those who wear red do ...

[oldnavy]

Oh my.

What to say about the latest in what has become a series of embarrassing events for Ol Roy and his program.

First, I think Roy is basically disengaged. This is just my opinion from a long way off, but it seems to me that Roy really doesn't have good insight into what is happening on the ground with his players and former players. It seems to be a pattern, beginning with a couple of totally "unexpected" transfers and continuing with the PJ affair.

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that Roy chooses not to know a lot. This would be the best case scenario, because at least then you could explain, not excuse Roy's lack of leadership.

What would be worse, is that I am wrong and Roy is fully engaged and is not stopping these issues before they blow up on him.

My guess is that as in most things the truth is somewhere between the two extremes.

I don't really understand why you would "rent" your very nice house to a kid with a history of making bad choices, and choices that would lead to legal charges. I just don't get it. Sure, maybe Roy was trying to help the kid, but who thinks that you "help" someone by setting them up in a $650K house?? Sure, the job makes sense, keep the kid around so you can see him and talk to him on a regular basis, give him some responsibilities and teach him while you are at it, but WHY give him your house to live in? What is that going to "teach" Will? Seems to me that just is going to reinforce an attitude of "exception" and "superiority" in a kid that already is having a hard time seeing that he is NOT above the rules, and needs to learn how to get along in the "real" world. A better way to instill these values in by giving the kid MORE responsibility, not less.

I am all for helping people and giving people the benefit of the doubt. In fact, I am considered "too easy" by my staff at work, when dealing with troubled patients/customers. The danger in doing this is that you run the risk of becoming part of the problem and not part of the solution if your actions morph into enabling folks to behave badly. You have to know when and where to draw the line. Roy seems to be having some trouble with this part of leadership/mentor-ship.

Roy may just be the nicest guy on earth, but if he is, he really needs someone around him to be a little more discerning to keep him from exposing himself to these sorts of embarrassing situations.

Oh, and good luck to Will. He really thinks that he is going to play ball professionally? Again, someone needs to sit this guy down and explain to him, look you have already been kicked off one team for smoking dope, didn't you learn anything from that??? STOP smoking pot Will.... obviously you can't get away with it.

[sagegrouse]

Oh my.

What to say about the latest in what has become a series of embarrassing events for Ol Roy and his program.



I believe Roy's problems would go up in smoke if he became the head coach at Colorado or UDub or Wazu, all in states where marijuana is legal. But perhaps he is biding his time. Colorado's marijuana retail stores open January 1, 2014; Washington's a few months later.

[Reilly]

... Denying police permission to search the house ... seems like a much smarter coarse of action.

Yes, it does. That said, when confronted with police presence, sometimes it's hard to say "no." I once found myself surrounded by three police cars, in my hometown, simply because I was driving a rental truck (there had been a series of "interstate" robberies where robbers would come off the interstate, hit a house, and hop back on .... don't know if rental trucks were used). When helping a friend move, I had briefly stopped back in my hometown for just a few minutes and was parked around the corner from the house where my family had lived for 30 years. Three police cars came and hemmed us in.

The rental truck had no contraband -- no peanut butter & pepper balls. The police asked if they could search the back of it. I was totally innocent, there was nothing there, yet I felt unnerved and guilty, and gave them permission (when I could/should have told them to get out of my way). The best part is when my saintly, elderly neighbor from across the street walked by, on her way to the church at the end of our street. Just a long way of saying that even when you are w/in your rights to say "no", sometimes it is hard to do. And I'm sure the court dockets bear out that truth.

[Merlindevildog91]

Did Will Graves not understand marijuana is against the law?



Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/12/13/3457810/former-unc-basketball-player-will.html#storylink=cpy

Denying police permission to search the house and flushing the very small amounts of illegal stuff, while they are off getting a search warrant, which probably would have been denied seems like a much smarter coarse of action.

FYI-(assuming there was probable cause for a search warrant, which is NOT a very high standard) if he had said no to the request for the search, the police would have left personnel there to make sure nothing got flushed, smoked, moved, etc., while other officers got the search warrant. Leaving personnel at the scene where contraband can be destroyed is Constitutionally permissible.

Actually, in agreeing to a search, he could have forestalled a more extensive search that could have turned up other things. If the police smell marijuana and ask for consent to search, they probably aren't going to look further than the fairly obvious marijuana. If they get a search warrant, they can look in any place in the house where marijuana could be hidden, i.e., anywhere.

[Reilly]

... Is it a place big donors can stay when they visit and play golf? Get away from wives? Inquiring minds ...

Maybe it's like that white house the Cowboys players maintained for hookers and drugs ... blunts all around, people packing BB guns, Coca-cola being drunk at all hours of the day, even breakfast ... probably dangerous stuff like swinging golf clubs indoors, too ... Fats and PJ roll up in some sleek new ride ... high frivolity and joke-y Swahili greetings being swapped all around ...

[BD80]

... but it seems to me that Roy really doesn't have good insight into what is happening on the ground with his players and former players. It seems to be a pattern, beginning with a couple of totally "unexpected" transfers and continuing with the PJ affair.

... why you would "rent" your very nice house to a kid with a history of making bad choices, and choices that would lead to legal charges. I just don't get it. Sure, maybe Roy was trying to help the kid, but who thinks that you "help" someone by setting them up in a $650K house?? ...

The article states that Williams had been aware of Graves’ arrest and was “disappointed” by the news. Surprised? Hell no. He best not have been surprised. He gets paid millions of dollars to recruit (select) and then coach a squad limited to 13 scholarship players. He sets up a drug user into a secluded high end residence and doesn't realize what will happen? Come on man

BTW: 3 bedroom 2 bath valued OVER $600 K? The place sure looks bigger in the video in the linked article.


I believe Roy's problems would go up in smoke if he became the head coach at Colorado or UDub or Wazu, all in states where marijuana is legal. But perhaps he is biding his time. Colorado's marijuana retail stores open January 1, 2014; Washington's a few months later.

Maybe the DEA should pay attention to ol' roy's private jet "recruiting" trips to those areas in the future. He might be helping some local NC farmers market their crops.

[OldPhiKap]

Maybe it's like that white house the Cowboys players maintained for hookers and drugs ... blunts all around, people packing BB guns, Coca-cola being drunk at all hours of the day, even breakfast ... probably dangerous stuff like swinging golf clubs indoors, too ... Fats and PJ roll up in some sleek new ride ... high frivolity and joke-y Swahili greetings being swapped all around ...

Don't ask what happens at Roy's beach house.

Why would Roy have two (or more) swank houses in Chapel Hill? Curious.

[Reilly]

... WHY give him your house to live in? ...

What was the timeline of Graves scholarship status? Maybe Graves had no scholarship for housing, and no money otherwise for housing, and Roy somehow felt guilty about all that, and gave him a place to live. Do we know for sure Graves was paying rent?

[Reilly]

... assuming there was probable cause for a search warrant, which is NOT a very high standard) if he had said no to the request for the search, the police would have left personnel there to make sure nothing got flushed, smoked, moved, etc.,..

What? The meter reader is suspicious that someone lives in a house. How is that probable cause to search the residence? And if police are left on site, they are not left actually *in* the house -- they cannot be in the house w/out permission or a warrant or exigent circumstances -- so how could they make sure nothing was flushed?

[BD80]

... Do we know for sure Graves was paying rent?

It was a barter arrangement. In lieu of paying rent, Will was fumigating the house for roaches ...

Or something like that

[Reilly]

... Why would Roy have two (or more) swank houses in Chapel Hill? Curious.

Yes, it is. Didn't some record show it was bought in 2006, too? Seems like he could've afforded something nicer at that time. Why buy this? Did a relative live in it? Has he not gotten around to selling it? Is he a golf-lord (slumlord for $630K houses on golf courses)?

[-jk]

Lots of people invest in real estate. Nothing weird there.

-jk

[budwom]

Fond memories of who owns what houses in Chapel Hill. Whenever a new coach is rumored over there, we hear "I think he owns a house in the Governor's Club in Chapel Hill" even though he works in Kansas
or wherever. I'm sure Nick Saban owns one, and possibly Jim Harbaugh.

I'm still waiting for Pack Pride to bring forth some more discussion of this event.

I think it's highly unusual for cops to search a place unless they expected to find something more significant.
But I could buy the argument that someone saw a black kid in a nice house and developed tremors. I think i'll go over to
PP to see what they've got. Fun!

[77devil]

I am more familiar with rental values for commercial property, which uses a cap rate of 8% - 12%.

Residential, if your annual rent covers annual mortgage plus tax plus included utilities, you break even if there is no depreciation or repair. In actuality, market rent is hopefully enough to cover the above plus wear/tear plus some profit.

Using your actual market experience, if a $150k house rents for $1.1k/month what should a house worth some multiple of that rent for before we figure the location adjustment? (Not sure how long ago you bought the property, that obviously makes a difference). Somewhere between double and quadruple I guess. So that's $2.2k-$4.4k/mo. And the low end would assume that you bought that property a long time ago.

Again, though, that's from the income approach -- the comparable market is what it is. But houses in the $600k range are rarely rental homes outside of MUCH frothier markets.

I am not a RE appraiser or broker though -- would defer to those who are.

Nor am I but have invested in real estate over the years. It's hard to generalize because residential real estate economics can vary widely by market. Excluding resort rentals, typically rents plateau at some level in every market regardless of the property value because an inflection is reached where potential renters can afford to buy a home instead and take advantage of the mortgage deduction and potential equity growth. There are always a few exceptions such as temp. corporate relocations.

I haven't owned rental properties in awhile but the partnerships in which I use to invest often were structured to break even or produce a small annual loss for tax purposes but with positive operating cash flow due to depreciation. A positive capital gain from selling properties was critical to earning the expected total return.

Don't know CH/Orange County but Roy's investment was what $400 K? I suspect that's near the top of the market for renting as a single family home and making a competitive return.

[OldPhiKap]

Lots of people invest in real estate. Nothing weird there.

-jk

Yeah, but that is typically for income-producing land or for future development. Or flipping, back in the day. I do not think that many folks buy a $600k residence for investment purposes, let alone use it to lend out or rent inexpensively.

[sagegrouse]

Yeah, but that is typically for income-producing land or for future development. Or flipping, back in the day. I do not think that many folks buy a $600k residence for investment purposes, let alone use it to lend out or rent inexpensively.

A. Roy makes millions every year.
B. He throws away some of his money on bad investments.

Why is either a surprise?

[BD80]

... As one former teammate noted: “I think he failed Swahili. Everyone on the team takes that class and I’m pretty sure Will was the first one to fail.” ...

How does one fail a "paper" class with no attendance required (or, it seems, possible) when the sole requirement, the paper, is prepared by an advisor?

Will is a special kind of stupid.

[-jk]

Yeah, but that is typically for income-producing land or for future development. Or flipping, back in the day. I do not think that many folks buy a $600k residence for investment purposes, let alone use it to lend out or rent inexpensively.

We don't know who may have occupied it in the meantime, but he paid 400k for it in '05. Likely cash. It's now assessed at 630k. He's weathered the bubble. Not bad.

-jk

[Merlindevildog91]

What? The meter reader is suspicious that someone lives in a house. How is that probable cause to search the residence? And if police are left on site, they are not left actually *in* the house -- they cannot be in the house w/out permission or a warrant or exigent circumstances -- so how could they make sure nothing was flushed?

They don't need probable cause to go to the house. If there is a call for service, for whatever reason, the police are responsible to answer. I certainly don't know the facts, but in the county where I prosecute, about once a week the police go to a house on some sort of call and smell something suspicious-marijuana, chemicals used to make meth, etc., etc., etc. I can't imagine this scenario is going to be much different. The police will put in their search warrant that based on their training and experience, the odor that they smelled is consistent with marijuana, and that's all they need for the search warrant.

If the person says, "no, you can't search my house," the police have the right to clear the house, i.e.., do a protective search and get everyone outside, or corral them all in one room until the search warrant is obtained and then executed. This is all Constitutionally permissible, though I don't remember the cases at the moment.

One other thing-search warrants are executed by people who know what they are doing and what to look for, as opposed to "knock and talk" or "call for service," which is usually a couple of guys on a shift that have plenty of other things to do and won't write more than a couple of citations on something like this unless they are disrespected.

[Clay Feet POF]

Random Acts of Kindness, No matter who!!

[jv001]

Can't wait for "Pack Pride" to uncover the real truth about will and old roy, lol. GoDuke!

[weezie]

It was a barter arrangement. In lieu of paying rent, Will was fumigating the house for roaches ...

Or something like that

Flag on the play for being too easy a punchline. Good Lord!

[weezie]

The NY Post needs to start a Chapel Hill edition ... I just wish a gal had been there w/ Graves, and we could refer to her as a moll ....

This qualifies as post of the thread.

"A moll" :D:D:D

[OldPhiKap]

Will is a special kind of stupid.

Here is how his tests were proctored:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvn-tBeLpCk

[oldnavy]

What was the timeline of Graves scholarship status? Maybe Graves had no scholarship for housing, and no money otherwise for housing, and Roy somehow felt guilty about all that, and gave him a place to live. Do we know for sure Graves was paying rent?

I don't have any idea if he was paying rent or not. I don't know that that is important, because even if he was, I highly doubt that it would be anywhere near what market value would be, therefore it has to be considered a "benefit".

My point is that sometimes in an effort to "help" someone, you can actually hurt them. Does ANYONE think that allowing Will Graves access to YOUR house would be a good idea??? Probably not, right? So, why then would Roy think that this would be a good idea?

I am not questioning Roy's motives, but I do question his judgment or level of involvement. To give Will Graves or any young person with a history of making really bad choices and breaking both team rules and Federal law access (paid or free) to your property is not a smart move under any circumstance that I can imagine. It isn't like Roy is without resources or contacts that can help.

Help him? Sure, help him by hooking him up with a responsible alum or staff member that has an extra room and who can help watch and mentor Will.

But to just give him the keys to a "pad" and let him go.... what could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait, I know...

[sagegrouse]

They don't need probable cause to go to the house. If there is a call for service, for whatever reason, the police are responsible to answer. I certainly don't know the facts, but in the county where I prosecute, about once a week the police go to a house on some sort of call and smell something suspicious-marijuana, chemicals used to make meth, etc., etc., etc. I can't imagine this scenario is going to be much different. The police will put in their search warrant that based on their training and experience, the odor that they smelled is consistent with marijuana, and that's all they need for the search warrant.

If the person says, "no, you can't search my house," the police have the right to clear the house, i.e.., do a protective search and get everyone outside, or corral them all in one room until the search warrant is obtained and then executed. This is all Constitutionally permissible, though I don't remember the cases at the moment.

One other thing-search warrants are executed by people who know what they are doing and what to look for, as opposed to "knock and talk" or "call for service," which is usually a couple of guys on a shift that have plenty of other things to do and won't write more than a couple of citations on something like this unless they are disrespected.

Perhaps the magic words would be: "Would you please mind calling Coach Williams? He owns the house."

[Reilly]

... But I could buy the argument that someone saw a black kid in a nice house and developed tremors ...

... in genteel Chapel Hill, it'd probably be a case of "the vapors" ...

[Jarhead]

Here is how his tests were proctored:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvn-tBeLpCk

Thanks for the Taxi link, OPK. Today's comedies are unwatchable compared to the comedies back then. Sorry for this temporary thread diversion. http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/21.gif

[Bob Green]

If the person says, "no, you can't search my house," the police have the right to clear the house, i.e.., do a protective search and get everyone outside, or corral them all in one room until the search warrant is obtained and then executed. This is all Constitutionally permissible, though I don't remember the cases at the moment.



Wow! And all this time I thought I was living in the Land of the Free.

[BD80]

Here is how his tests were proctored:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvn-tBeLpCk

"Slow down!"

One of my all-time favorite sitcom scenes

[MCFinARL]

As someone else suggested to me, mj violations and mj smoke are a dime a dozen in most cities -- and especially in a college town. The Chapel Hill police would do nothing else if every single one were investigated.

Perhaps there was a suspicion, possibly a report, of something more serious?

sage

Maybe they received an anonymous tip from Pack Pride.

[throatybeard]

I'm confused. Is this worse than the Haitian earthquake, or not?

[BD80]

I'm confused. Is this worse than the Haitian earthquake, or not?

What a silly question.

It happened TO ol' roy ...

[77devil]

I'm confused. Is this worse than the Haitian earthquake, or not?

TBD depending on his responses to the press after the UK game to the inevitable questions about the incident.

[Reilly]

... the inevitable questions about the incident.

"Coach, can you address the blunts-in-your-home situation?"

[BlueDevilBrowns]

"Coach, can you address the blunts-in-your-home situation?"

"Coach Williams, would you describe the constant off-the-court issues involving your team a CHRONIC problem?"

[stickdog]

Agree. As much as I would love for Old Roy to get caught doing something improper, it seems to me like he was just trying to help a kid out. Good for him.Let's see. Roy was supplying his ex-player with:

1) an off the books "job",

2) a free place to live,

3) wheels?

4) weed?

in order to induce the kid to graduate from UNC so that UNC's precarious APR would not dip below the level required to participate in the NCAA tournament.

Roy has a long history of giving improper benefits to his players once they graduate (http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840). He cannot claim ignorance to this clear NCAA violation this time around.

Now do y'all understand why this is an issue?

[stickdog]

As far as the rest, that would be a huge blunder at Roy's feet if a violation. Which is why I cannot believe that it is. Compliance would not let the guy work for the program, or allow the rental arrangement.

I do not really respect Roy, but this would be just blatant stupidity if a violation. Roy is a stubborn goofy cornball whack job but he ain't dumb.

This is the same coach who directed his kids to enroll in AA "independent studies" and no show classes.

This is the same coach who approved Fats' "Wheels for Heels" program even after his athletic department was put on probation.

This is the same coach who was already busted for giving improper benefits to his former players.

What has he done to deserve the benefit of any doubt?

[Turk]

Let's see. Roy was supplying his ex-player with:

1) an off the books "job",

2) a free place to live,

3) wheels?

4) weed?

in order to induce the kid to graduate from UNC so that UNC's precarious APR would not dip below the level required to participate in the NCAA tournament.

Roy has a long history of giving improper benefits to his players once they graduate (http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840). He cannot claim ignorance to this clear NCAA violation this time around.

Now do y'all understand why this is an issue?

"...clear NCAA violation..." ?!?! Wait, what?!? Stickdog, how did you decide that?

Sure, you can question Ol Roy's judgment, and maybe you can question the motives of a meter reader who saw people who didn't fit the demographic profile of the neighborhood. (I don't think you can question Ol Roy's financial acumen - it appears he's likely to come out well ahead if he chooses to sell the residence in question.)

Despite all the mess in the unc program, it is NOT clear this is an NCAA violation. The fact it's even being discussed is more of an indictment (pun intended) of the NCAA rather than unc. Only those clowns would spend time and effort making obscure rules about "student athletes" who are actually not on the team and will never play for the school again. I'm channelling my inner Bilastrator - the kid is finishing his degree and has a job and is paying rent. How is any of that wrong?

Maybe the NCAA should just shut down the unc program for "lack of institutional control." How do you think that will play? Why does anyone take the NCAA seriously any more?

This particular issue is clearly a matter for the police and the courts. Nothing more, nothing less. If Graves can overcome this and get his act together, good for him. If he turns out to be a loser, he won't be the first hotshot who threw away multiple opportunities from multiple people trying to give him a hand.

[-jk]

No, giving benefits to former players should be a violation. That slope is more slippery than a bobsled track!

"Come play for us. Work hard for a year or three. Get a really nice golden parachute really soon!"

Yeah, the NCAA can ignore that.

Edit: Knight and Pickens say Hi!

Sorry, not buyin'

-jk

[johnb]

while I was modestly in favor of Carolina beating Kentucky this afternoon, it seems clear that this is an infraction. (former) player, on scholarship (?), getting exceptional benefits.

while he's not suiting up, I assume he hangs with the players and probably the recruits. from a recruitment/ncaa point of view, why wouldn't this be seen--like the sham course in Swahili--as both actionable and an example of the Carolina way?

[stickdog]

"...clear NCAA violation..." ?!?! Wait, what?!? Stickdog, how did you decide that?

Unless Graves is paying fair market value for his "rental" of Roy's property and getting paid fair market value for the part-time "job" Roy gave him, these are clear NCAA violations by a coach who has a clear pattern of committing this exact kind of NCAA violation (http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840), but who pleaded ignorance to the clear and clearly understandable rules against these kinds of benefits the last time around.

[OldPhiKap]

He may have a problem with the IRS for receiving undisclosed income through below-market rent, but again we have had former players on staff (still do ) and players who jumped to the league before graduating who came back to take classes despite being on an NCAA roster. Unless he is taking one of UNC's scholarships, this is not a violation as best I can tell. He is not a roster player.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Unless Graves is paying fair market value for his "rental" of Roy's property and getting paid fair market value for the part-time "job" Roy gave him, these are clear NCAA violations by a coach who has a clear pattern of committing this exact kind of NCAA violation (http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840), but who pleaded ignorance to the clear and clearly understandable rules against these kinds of benefits the last time around.

What Roy has a clear pattern of is expressing clear devotion to his players.

So he thought it was Ok that boosters could buy graduating players (walk on's too) a suit for their banquets, etc.
but the NCAA says no. Big deal.

He's let down trying to help a former troubled player graduate, you should commend him.

You're trying to make his actions sound like the KY money in a Fed Ex box stuff, which is ridiculous.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

No, giving benefits to former players should be a violation. That slope is more slippery than a bobsled track!

"Come play for us. Work hard for a year or three. Get a really nice golden parachute really soon!"

Yeah, the NCAA can ignore that.

Edit: Knight and Pickens say Hi!

Sorry, not buyin'

-jk

In theory, everybody understands your concern.

To be practical here, this has no appearance of a case of unsavory motivation.

Zero benefits ever?...It's another stupid blanket NCAA rule in the first place, and full of grey area. Totally unenforceable.

[Bob Green]

He's let down trying to help a former troubled player graduate, you should commend him.



While his intentions are good, Coach Williams' acts of kindness are counterproductive. He is an enabler.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

While his intentions are good, Coach Williams' acts of kindness are counterproductive. He is an enabler.

That may be true, in this case.

We don't know about how the other helpful things he has likely done over the years have worked out and gotten no publicity, do we?

[Bob Green]

That may be true, in this case.

We don't know about how the other helpful things he has likely done over the years have worked out and gotten no publicity, do we?

No we do not. Fair point...

[Turk]

while I was modestly in favor of Carolina beating Kentucky this afternoon, it seems clear that this is an infraction. (former) player, on scholarship (?), getting exceptional benefits.

while he's not suiting up, I assume he hangs with the players and probably the recruits. from a recruitment/ncaa point of view, why wouldn't this be seen--like the sham course in Swahili--as both actionable and an example of the Carolina way?

Sure, I can imagine him hanging with the recruits. "Did I tell you about our great run in the NIT a few years back? Man, we were really smokin that year..." [eyeroll]

The whole notion of "exceptional benefits" is ludicrous and meaningless. It has nothing to do with recruiting, and Graves' career is over. If he doesn't get arrested the whole thing is a nonstory. Does it make sense for the NCAA to hound every kid who loses his scholly to an incoming McDonald's AA or gets kicked off a team to make sure he wallows in the gutter where he evidently belongs? How does the NCAA expect a kid (excuse me, "student-athlete") to pick himself off the floor when they've got a foot on his neck?

Thought exercise: suppose it was a Duke kid who made an ill-advised decision (William Avery, anyone?) and someone affiliated with Duke helped him out so he could come back to school and graduate, what do you think the reaction would be here?

[brevity]

You're trying to make his actions sound like the KY money in a Fed Ex box stuff, which is ridiculous.

You're right, it's completely different. Roy's actions are unlikely to get Cleveland State into trouble.

[Edouble]

Sure, I can imagine him hanging with the recruits. "Did I tell you about our great run in the NIT a few years back? Man, we were really smokin that year..." [eyeroll]

The whole notion of "exceptional benefits" is ludicrous and meaningless. It has nothing to do with recruiting, and Graves' career is over. If he doesn't get arrested the whole thing is a nonstory. Does it make sense for the NCAA to hound every kid who loses his scholly to an incoming McDonald's AA or gets kicked off a team to make sure he wallows in the gutter where he evidently belongs? How does the NCAA expect a kid (excuse me, "student-athlete") to pick himself off the floor when they've got a foot on his neck?

Thought exercise: suppose it was a Duke kid who made an ill-advised decision (William Avery, anyone?) and someone affiliated with Duke helped him out so he could come back to school and graduate, what do you think the reaction would be here?

You're not really analogizing Avery's decision to turn pro with Graves getting kicked off the UNC team for drugs are you?

[stickdog]

That may be true, in this case.

We don't know about how the other helpful things he has likely done over the years have worked out and gotten no publicity, do we?

No, we don't know about all the helpful NCAA violations Roy has committed because he doesn't agree with them and he has the best of intentions when he violates them.

We don't know how many players, players' families or former players he has helped by supplying them with free luxury housing out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players, players' families or former players he has helped by supplying them with hefty unearned paychecks out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players or former players he has "helped" to graduate from college using bogus non-classes and independent "studies" out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players or former players he has helped to party and drive around Chapel Hill in style using felons and pimps to supply them with killer rides, cutting edge phones, fine weed and VIP nightlife out of the goodness of his heart.

We only hear about all of these helpful NCAA violations in the very few incidences when UNC players are dumb enough to discuss them on social media or when Pack Pride gets its hands on the police reports.

[killerleft]

No, giving benefits to former players should be a violation. That slope is more slippery than a bobsled track!

"Come play for us. Work hard for a year or three. Get a really nice golden parachute really soon!"

Yeah, the NCAA can ignore that.

Edit: Knight and Pickens say Hi!

Sorry, not buyin'

-jk

Well stated. There are rules. I don't know if the Graves situation is a violation or not, but benefits for newly-ex-players HAVE to be regulated. Graves was dismissed from the program by Huck, for goodness' sake. As -jk says above, "Come play for us. Work hard for a year or three. Get a really nice golden parachute really soon!" does not pass the sniff test.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Well stated. There are rules. I don't know if the Graves situation is a violation or not, but benefits for newly-ex-players HAVE to be regulated. Graves was dismissed from the program by Huck, for goodness' sake. As -jk says above, "Come play for us. Work hard for a year or three. Get a really nice golden parachute really soon!" does not pass the sniff test.

At first, there may not seem to be any motivation to give an extra benefit to Graves, never a star and kicked off the team after repeated drug violations. Remember, though, that UNC's APR has been plummeting since the fraudulent department (in which the whole senior class on the '05 championship team majored) came to light. Also, Graves had not graduated and never had demonstrated much motivation to do so. In one old article a teammate noted that Graves even failed Swahili and that the teammate had never heard of anyone failing that course, even though the whole team would take it. Setting Graves up in a house that he would not appear to be able to afford to pay market value rent on, given his part-time video coordinator gig, could give him some incentive to graduate and help that APR.

Or, could have been just the dadgum blind kindness of Ole Roy's heart....

[Indoor66]

At first, there may not seem to be any motivation to give an extra benefit to Graves, never a star and kicked off the team after repeated drug violations. Remember, though, that UNC's APR has been plummeting since the fraudulent department (in which the whole senior class on the '05 championship team majored) came to light. Also, Graves had not graduated and never had demonstrated much motivation to do so. In one old article a teammate noted that Graves even failed Swahili and that the teammate had never heard of anyone failing that course, even though the whole team would take it. Setting Graves up in a house that he would not appear to be able to afford to pay market value rent on, given his part-time video coordinator gig, could give him some incentive to graduate and help that APR.

Or, could have been just the dadgum blind kindness of Ole Roy's heart....

Pinehurst Drive is the only through North-South Drive in The Oaks subdivision (http://www.bing.com/maps/#Y3A9MjYuMjMzNDAwfi04MC4xMTkzMDEmbHZsPTQmc3R5PXImc T1QaW5laHVyc3QlMjUyMERyaXZlJTI1MkMlMjUyMENoYXBlbCU yNTIwSGlsbCUyNTJDJTI1MjBOQw==) - running from NC 54 (Raleigh Road) to Ephesus Church Road. The Oaks is the subdivision that surrounds The Chapel Hill Country Club. That is quite exclusive and swanky territory.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

No, we don't know about all the helpful NCAA violations Roy has committed because he doesn't agree with them and he has the best of intentions when he violates them.

We don't know how many players, players' families or former players he has helped by supplying them with free luxury housing out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players, players' families or former players he has helped by supplying them with hefty unearned paychecks out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players or former players he has "helped" to graduate from college using bogus non-classes and independent "studies" out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players or former players he has helped to party and drive around Chapel Hill in style using felons and pimps to supply them with killer rides, cutting edge phones, fine weed and VIP nightlife out of the goodness of his heart.

We only hear about all of these helpful NCAA violations in the very few incidences when UNC players are dumb enough to discuss them on social media or when Pack Pride gets its hands on the police reports.

You are proving that anybody can say anything, but all talk and bluster just won't make it so.

[Papa John]

No, we don't know about all the helpful NCAA violations Roy has committed because he doesn't agree with them and he has the best of intentions when he violates them.

We don't know how many players, players' families or former players he has helped by supplying them with free luxury housing out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players, players' families or former players he has helped by supplying them with hefty unearned paychecks out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players or former players he has "helped" to graduate from college using bogus non-classes and independent "studies" out of the goodness of his heart.

We don't know how many players or former players he has helped to party and drive around Chapel Hill in style using felons and pimps to supply them with killer rides, cutting edge phones, fine weed and VIP nightlife out of the goodness of his heart.

We only hear about all of these helpful NCAA violations in the very few incidences when UNC players are dumb enough to discuss them on social media or when Pack Pride gets its hands on the police reports.

Sounds like you know for a fact that Graves is staying in the house for free, and that he is not actually performing the job functions assigned to him by UNC basketball. Care to cite your source for these facts? Also, as much as I agree that it's quite clear that UNC has a series of legitimate academic and car rental/improper benefits scandals to deal with, I have not seen any smoking gun thus far that proves Roy was aware of what was going on--care to share that info as well?

There's plenty of fodder here to bludgeon UNC and Roy with already... No need to make stuff up.

[El_Diablo]

First PJ, and now Graves. There's only so much the fanbase will tolerate before taking some drastic steps to make sure this type of stuff ends.

So we may end up seeing North Carolina as the next state to legalize recreational marijuana.

[stickdog]

Sounds like you know for a fact that Graves is staying in the house for free, and that he is not actually performing the job functions assigned to him by UNC basketball. Care to cite your source for these facts? Also, as much as I agree that it's quite clear that UNC has a series of legitimate academic and car rental/improper benefits scandals to deal with, I have not seen any smoking gun thus far that proves Roy was aware of what was going on--care to share that info as well?

There's plenty of fodder here to bludgeon UNC and Roy with already... No need to make stuff up.

This is the same coach whose players stayed eligible by enrolling in AA "independent studies" and no show classes.

This is the same coach whose players rolled round Chapel Hill in rides supplied by Fats' "Wheels for Heels" program even after his athletic department was put on probation.

This is the same coach who was already busted for giving improper benefits to his former players (http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840).

What has he done to deserve the benefit of any doubt?

Do you really think Will Graves was paying Roy $3,000 a month to stay in Roy's $650,000 home? With what? With the $90,000 salary he was legitimately making by working for Roy as a "part-time video coordinator"?

[Papa John]

This is the same coach whose players stayed eligible by enrolling in AA "independent studies" and no show classes.

This is the same coach whose players rolled round Chapel Hill in rides supplied by Fats' "Wheels for Heels" program even after his athletic department was put on probation.

This is the same coach who was already busted for giving improper benefits to his former players (http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840).

What has he done to deserve the benefit of any doubt?

Do you really think Will Graves was paying Roy $3,000 a month to stay in Roy's $650,000 home? With what? With the $90,000 salary he was legitimately making by working for Roy as a "part-time video coordinator"?

So what you're telling me is, you have no sources and, thus, you have no facts. I prefer to deal in the facts. We have no smoking gun info that provides the direct links you suggest.

[stickdog]

So what you're telling me is, you have no sources and, thus, you have no facts. I prefer to deal in the facts. We have no smoking gun info that provides the direct links you suggest.

What I'm telling you is that unless Roy can produce receipts showing that Will Graves is renting from him at fair market value (using what money?), Roy is committing yet another in a long line of clear NCAA violations. And I'd be willing to bet you a month's rent at Roy's hella huge house of hemp that he doesn't have those receipts.

I don't require the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" to form my opinion on a coach and a program that has does nothing to deserve the benefit of any doubt, and I can't help but wonder why so many here want to let Roy off the hook for yet another almost certain NCAA violation unless they can feel the still smoldering gun in their own hands.

[Edouble]

What I'm telling you is that unless Roy can produce receipts showing that Will Graves is renting from him at fair market value (using what money?), Roy is committing yet another in a long line of clear NCAA violations. And I'd be willing to bet you a month's rent at Roy's hella huge house of hemp that he doesn't have those receipts.

I don't require the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" to form my opinion on a coach and a program that has does nothing to deserve the benefit of any doubt, and I can't help but wonder why so many here want to let Roy off the hook for yet another almost certain NCAA violation unless they can feel the still smoldering gun in their own hands.

Also, are there any minimum job qualifications for this "video coordinator job"? I mean, this guy couldn't even pass the Swahili class. Does he really have the organizational skills even to coordinate toothpaste to toothbrush? I know we put ex-players on staff all the time, but these are guys with college degrees and really good basketball minds.

Seems like an impermissible benefit if he's given a job that he's underqualified for, albeit I admit my ignorance over what exactly the job entails.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

What I'm telling you is that unless Roy can produce receipts showing that Will Graves is renting from him at fair market value (using what money?), Roy is committing yet another in a long line of clear NCAA violations. And I'd be willing to bet you a month's rent at Roy's hella huge house of hemp that he doesn't have those receipts.

I don't require the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" to form my opinion on a coach and a program that has does nothing to deserve the benefit of any doubt, and I can't help but wonder why so many here want to let Roy off the hook for yet another almost certain NCAA violation unless they can feel the still smoldering gun in their own hands.


You don't know what you're talking about, and Roy has no obligation to show you or anybody else his personal financial information.

Graves has been playing professionally (http://basketball.latinbasket.com/player/William_Graves/Malvin/116563#Player%20Stats) the past few years, although I have no idea how much his salary is, I'm feeling pretty confident he can afford rent.

This is a non story regarding any sort of NCAA issue.

[Papa John]

What I'm telling you is that unless Roy can produce receipts showing that Will Graves is renting from him at fair market value (using what money?), Roy is committing yet another in a long line of clear NCAA violations. And I'd be willing to bet you a month's rent at Roy's hella huge house of hemp that he doesn't have those receipts.

I don't require the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" to form my opinion on a coach and a program that has does nothing to deserve the benefit of any doubt, and I can't help but wonder why so many here want to let Roy off the hook for yet another almost certain NCAA violation unless they can feel the still smoldering gun in their own hands.

I don't want to let anyone "off the hook". But I do want to deal in facts. Fact is, you have nothing to prove what you are insinuating. I'm not a fan of Roy Williams, but I do think that before you start lobbing the type of accusations you're tossing out here, you should have some supporting evidence, otherwise you're simply engaging in ad hominem attacks... And that's what the Tar Heel boards are for...

[Duke79UNLV77]

You don't know what you're talking about, and Roy has no obligation to show you or anybody else his personal financial information.

Graves has been playing professionally (http://basketball.latinbasket.com/player/William_Graves/Malvin/116563#Player%20Stats) the past few years, although I have no idea how much his salary is, I'm feeling pretty confident he can afford rent.

This is a non story regarding any sort of NCAA issue.

Playing most recently in Uruguay?? P.J. probably was better compensated last year.

[johnb]

This is the same coach whose players stayed eligible by enrolling in AA "independent studies" and no show classes.

This is the same coach whose players rolled round Chapel Hill in rides supplied by Fats' "Wheels for Heels" program even after his athletic department was put on probation.

This is the same coach who was already busted for giving improper benefits to his former players (http://alumni.unc.edu/article.aspx?SID=2840).

What has he done to deserve the benefit of any doubt?

Do you really think Will Graves was paying Roy $3,000 a month to stay in Roy's $650,000 home? With what? With the $90,000 salary he was legitimately making by working for Roy as a "part-time video coordinator"?


You don't know what you're talking about, and Roy has no obligation to show you or anybody else his personal financial information.

Graves has been playing professionally (http://basketball.latinbasket.com/player/William_Graves/Malvin/116563#Player%20Stats) the past few years, although I have no idea how much his salary is, I'm feeling pretty confident he can afford rent.

This is a non story regarding any sort of NCAA issue.


Since showing up in Durham in 1977, I've wanted UNC to lose to Duke at everything but have wanted their school and athletic programs to otherwise succeed. I've seen theirs as a top tier state university, alongside Berkeley, Michigan, Texas, UCLA, and Virginia. It's been a great institution.

Will Graves is in some ways a non-story but in others it is yet another example of a school and program that has lost sight of itself. Dean Smith would not have allowed this last decade. I still have a hard time rooting against 20 yr olds who are just trying to compete and advance themselves, but I'm happy to cast a dismissive eye at 65 year old multi-millionaire administrators and coaches who repeatedly abuse their power at the expense of a great university.

[throatybeard]

Thought exercise: suppose it was a Duke kid who made an ill-advised decision (William Avery, anyone?) and someone affiliated with Duke helped him out so he could come back to school and graduate, what do you think the reaction would be here?

The most scathing criticism would be Wheat talking about Avery's lack of post presence.

[Skitzle]

I think the real hope for UNC fans is that Will Graves didn't just add another meeting to Late Night with Roy?

[oldnavy]

In theory, everybody understands your concern.

To be practical here, this has no appearance of a case of unsavory motivation.

Zero benefits ever?...It's another stupid blanket NCAA rule in the first place, and full of grey area. Totally unenforceable.

Actually to be practical, there is.

First, either Will Graves is self sufficient and able to pay his own way as you suggest in a later post or he is in need of help. Can't have it both ways.

My guess is that he isn't self sufficient and does need help (job and rent subsidies). This would be logical. If not, then Roy is just providing a home to Will at the "fair" market value and is doing NOTHING to help him, in fact he would be profiting off of Will.

Also, why have a job? I mean if he can afford to pay for the house, then why would he be using his off time to coordinate film? This doesn't pass the smell test.

I am not willing to say that Roy has unsavory motives, but painting him as just a benevolent "friend" seems a bit much as well.

My hunch is Roy was willing to help Will out, and either did not consider that it might be improper or he just doesn't care. Also, I doubt that Roy thought this through. Will could not be trusted to behave when Roy had the most influence over him that he would ever have. Did Roy really think that Will would behave now (maybe so)? If so, he got betrayed and that is sad, however Roy is in a position in his life to where he has to be a better judge of character and show some discernment in who he places in positions to bit him in the butt. Renting a house (unsupervised, we have to assume) to a kid that has shown the inability to control himself under "tight" supervision is not smart on any level.

If this is all above board and Will is paying his own way, then Roy has to come off that pedestal because he is basically a landlord, nothing more. If it is not above board and Roy is giving Will benefits not available to a regular grad student/student, then he is not playing by the rules (regardless of how stupid they may be) and Roy has to come off the pedestal.

I just don't see Roy as being a shinning Knight either way in this case.

[jv001]

I have a golf buddy that happens to be one of my best friends. He's a graduate of unc and he is as level headed as they come when it comes to sports in general and that applies to his tarheels. When it comes to the players for the heels and when it comes to old roy, he likes to give it the "Dean Smith test". How would Dean have handled the issues. Last year, he was 100% behind old roy but as time passed he now has a different view of old roy. When it came to the pj incidents, he said that Dean would have sent pj packing after the second incident and roy dropped the ball. I have not talked to him about this latest incident(will graves) but I'm sure he is going to say that roy is a poor judge of character when it comes to will. GoDuke!

[Matches]

IMO there's nothing to see here. I understand the purpose behind the "student athlete for life" concept i.e. preventing golden parachutes but trying to use that to find some impropriety here seems like a major reach.

And I hope I'm not the only one who finds problematic the notion that players (or former players) have some sort of obligation to make public their financials, bank statements, rental agreements, or whatnot on a whim. I didn't like it when that suggestion was raised re: Lance Thomas and I don't like it here either. Getting into a discussion about how much jewelry a player "should" be able to afford, or how big a house a former player "should" be able to rent is a really slippery slope IMO, and skirts right up against forcing people to prove their innocence rather than presuming it.

[devil84]

You don't know what you're talking about, and Roy has no obligation to show you or anybody else his personal financial information.

Graves has been playing professionally (http://basketball.latinbasket.com/player/William_Graves/Malvin/116563#Player Stats) the past few years, although I have no idea how much his salary is, I'm feeling pretty confident he can afford rent.

This is a non story regarding any sort of NCAA issue.

You're right. Roy has no obligation to show anybody his personal financial information. And yes, Graves has been playing professionally, but he's not now. Assuming Graves has made financially sound decisions with his earnings (this is a kid who got kicked off the team and failed Swahili -- that's a special talent right there -- but I'll go out on a limb and say he has made a remarkable change), he could be financially independent and could afford fair market value rent for a $650K house. But then why would he be a part-time video coordinator and rent a house from his old coach? He could find a pretty sweet place that doesn't have a hint of impropriety due to those rules that have already bit Roy in the butt on no gifts for former scholarship athletes.

So I'll disagree with you on your last point. I think this does have relevance to the NCAA. Roy has been informed by the NCAA that you can't give gifts to former players. He has to show that he isn't giving him a $3K+ monthly benefit with the house (and probably that the video coordinator job is a real job -- if it were, he could afford his own place to live, no?). If he can produce documentation that Graves is paying FMV for rent, a whole lot of speculation and the NCAA goes away. If Roy chooses to say nothing, speculation amongst ABC fans will run rampant.

[stickdog]

IMO there's nothing to see here. I understand the purpose behind the "student athlete for life" concept i.e. preventing golden parachutes but trying to use that to find some impropriety here seems like a major reach.

And I hope I'm not the only one who finds problematic the notion that players (or former players) have some sort of obligation to make public their financials, bank statements, rental agreements, or whatnot on a whim. I didn't like it when that suggestion was raised re: Lance Thomas and I don't like it here either. Getting into a discussion about how much jewelry a player "should" be able to afford, or how big a house a former player "should" be able to rent is a really slippery slope IMO, and skirts right up against forcing people to prove their innocence rather than presuming it.

And what would you have thought about the Lance Thomas case if Coach K had been Lance Thomas' jeweler? Because that's what we are talking about here.

[OldPhiKap]

We have former players on our coaching staff, who are paid by the University. And have had them since Amaker, Dawkins and Bilas were on our sideline. So there's a point at which the NCAA does not find a violation to provide economic benefits to former players.

I cannot imagine that Graves was a paid (part-time) staffer without it being cleared by compliance. And if he was being paid, if part of his benefits was a below-market home that is not an NCAA problem. An IRS problem, perhaps, but not an NCAA one. Paid is paid.

I like poking Roy as much as the next guy, but I just do not see a lot here. I think he was trying to help the kid out, and clearly his relationship with the team was no secret.

[sagegrouse]

You're right. Roy has no obligation to show anybody his personal financial information. And yes, Graves has been playing professionally, but he's not now. Assuming Graves has made financially sound decisions with his earnings (this is a kid who got kicked off the team and failed Swahili -- that's a special talent right there -- but I'll go out on a limb and say he has made a remarkable change), he could be financially independent and could afford fair market value rent for a $650K house. But then why would he be a part-time video coordinator and rent a house from his old coach? He could find a pretty sweet place that doesn't have a hint of impropriety due to those rules that have already bit Roy in the butt on no gifts for former scholarship athletes.

So I'll disagree with you on your last point. I think this does have relevance to the NCAA. Roy has been informed by the NCAA that you can't give gifts to former players. He has to show that he isn't giving him a $3K+ monthly benefit with the house (and probably that the video coordinator job is a real job -- if it were, he could afford his own place to live, no?). If he can produce documentation that Graves is paying FMV for rent, a whole lot of speculation and the NCAA goes away. If Roy chooses to say nothing, speculation amongst ABC fans will run rampant.

I think the Will Graves rent situation is no big deal; the drug aspects could be serious. He left UNC three years ago (did he graduate?); he works as a video coordinator (which requires basketball knowledge -- the interns can handle the electronics); he lives in a house owned by the head coach, where (we presume) he pays reduced rent.

Yawn. Look at all the guys from the program K has hired. Who knows, and why should we or the NCAA care, what their financial deal was with Duke?

sage

[DevilWearsPrada]

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=9359530


The SAGA on CHEATER HILL continues!

It must be nice to rent an expensive home, while attending college as an undergraduate and working Part Time!!! Will Graves, is living "HIGH on the HILL" or like the old saying "High on the Hog"!!!

[BigWayne]

Yawn. Look at all the guys from the program K has hired. Who knows, and why should we or the NCAA care, what their financial deal was with Duke?

sage

I am not an expert, but I am pretty sure there are very specific rules about compensation and coaching positions. I remember Nate James shuttling back and forth between various positions and titles. Some positions are regulated by the NCAA and some are not.

[johnb]

Seems like graduation makes a difference. There are sound basketball reasons for K to line our bench with former players (knowledge of the system, etc) as well as recruiting advantages (Duke point guard = a successful career in basketball). But if the former player is still working towards getting his undergraduate degree, I'd think NCAA rules would still be in effect. By itself, it's probably trivial, but it does seem like an extended disregard for rules that Roy clearly knows.

[sagegrouse]

I am not an expert, but I am pretty sure there are very specific rules about compensation and coaching positions. I remember Nate James shuttling back and forth between various positions and titles. Some positions are regulated by the NCAA and some are not.

You are quite correct. Div I schools are limited to three assistant coaches, I believe. A supernumerary like Job Scheyer cannot participate in practice or in recruiting. Moreover, there is a limit of two on the number of staff focused specifically on the basketball program. Jon Scheyer is called a special assistant. Pat Thompson (Duke 2011) is director of basketball operations. In addition, there is a graduate assistant.

Will Graves was not in any of the above positions.

sage

[BD80]

Wonder if we could download the GPS info from Fats' rentals to see how many/often stops were made at ol' roy's "flop house?"

Which would be worse, explaining why a convicted felon was visiting roy's place, or that players were "borrowing" Fats' cars to party with Graves?

[oldnavy]

We have former players on our coaching staff, who are paid by the University. And have had them since Amaker, Dawkins and Bilas were on our sideline. So there's a point at which the NCAA does not find a violation to provide economic benefits to former players.

I cannot imagine that Graves was a paid (part-time) staffer without it being cleared by compliance. And if he was being paid, if part of his benefits was a below-market home that is not an NCAA problem. An IRS problem, perhaps, but not an NCAA one. Paid is paid.

I like poking Roy as much as the next guy, but I just do not see a lot here. I think he was trying to help the kid out, and clearly his relationship with the team was no secret.

Two years ago I would have agreed with you. Now, I am not so sure.... remember who we are discussing here. :o

[Wheat/"/"/"]

The only rational, possible "benefit" of having Graves come back for UNC was to keep the APR up.

What happened to the concern from everybody around here about the importance of education all of a sudden? Even if you buy into the cynical notion that the APR is the only reason why Roy was helping him out, isn't that what a coach is supposed to do when he recruits a player? Help him achieve the promise of a college education?

Time to move on from this non story, I'd say.

[MChambers]

The only rational, possible "benefit" of having Graves come back for UNC was to keep the APR up.

What happened to the concern from everybody around here about the importance of education all of a sudden? Even if you buy into the cynical notion that the APR is the only reason why Roy was helping him out, isn't that what a coach is supposed to do when he recruits a player? Help him achieve the promise of a college education?

Time to move on from this non story, I'd say.
Nothing to see here, huh, Wheat?

Even if there's no NCAA violation, and I'm willing to think that a violation is unlikely, we're having way too much fun to drop this!

[TruBlu]

The only rational, possible "benefit" of having Graves come back for UNC was to keep the APR up.

What happened to the concern from everybody around here about the importance of education all of a sudden? Even if you buy into the cynical notion that the APR is the only reason why Roy was helping him out, isn't that what a coach is supposed to do when he recruits a player? Help him achieve the promise of a college education?

Time to move on from this non story, I'd say.

There sure seems to be a lot of "non stories" these days from UNC fans, I'd say.

[Reilly]

Wonder if we could download the GPS info from Fats' rentals to see how many/often stops were made at ol' roy's "flop house?" ...

Getting a mental image of the types of places Bubbles would bed down in for the night on The Wire ... addicts stumbling over Roy's clubs on the way in ... rolling up light blue argyle sweaters to use as pillows they'll drool on ... and we don't know exactly what *sort* of videos Graves was coordinating, do we? ...

[stickdog]

I cannot imagine that Graves was a paid (part-time) staffer without it being cleared by compliance.

Yeah, UNC's compliance department has shown itself to be uncompromisingly vigilant and stringent. The same is true of UNC's social media monitors. UNC runs the tightest ship in the dripping business!

[OldPhiKap]

The only rational, possible "benefit" of having Graves come back for UNC was to keep the APR up.



From a guy who failed Swahilli -- a class no one else failed?

I mean, how low does the GPA have to be to need Bluto or D-Day?

If this is the case, I take back every nice thing I've said about Roy upthread.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeah, UNC's compliance department has shown itself to be uncompromisingly vigilant and stringent. The same is true of UNC's social media monitors. UNC runs the tightest ship in the dripping business!

Fair point, but a guy getting a state paycheck and working in a state campus office, wel -- even Barney Fife would see something is wrong. (And I realize, it is a never-ending spiral down to argue "how dumb could they really be?")

[stickdog]

We have former players on our coaching staff, who are paid by the University. And have had them since Amaker, Dawkins and Bilas were on our sideline. So there's a point at which the NCAA does not find a violation to provide economic benefits to former players.

A graduate's getting paid a fair wage for performing your job duties is not an improper benefit.

A student's living for free at his coach's $650,000 rental property is clearly an improper benefit.

[stickdog]

Fair point, but a guy getting a state paycheck and working in a state campus office, wel -- even Barney Fife would see something is wrong. (And I realize, it is a never-ending spiral down to argue "how dumb could they really be?")

Who is to say that this job is even on the books? I wouldn't be surprised if Graves is getting paid under the table. Seriously, nothing would surprise me at this point. UNC has obviously thought for some time and still thinks that it is invulnerable to NCAA oversight.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Even if there's no NCAA violation, and I'm willing to think that a violation is unlikely, we're having way too much fun to drop this!

True...what am I thinking that I can post anything that could spoil the party around here :)

[brevity]

A supernumerary like Job Scheyer cannot participate in practice or in recruiting.

I know he's been through a lot after he graduated, with his eye injury and all, but I don't think Mr. Scheyer's struggles have reached the biblical level.

Now Ol' Roy, on the other hand...

[Matches]

And what would you have thought about the Lance Thomas case if Coach K had been Lance Thomas' jeweler? Because that's what we are talking about here.

I would have been surprised to learn that Coach K is a jeweler.

I'm not especially surprised to learn that Roy rents out a house, given that lots of rich people own more than one house.

If you invent enough backstory (Graves is paid under the table, it's all hidden from the NCAA, etc.) then sure, it all starts to look shady. That's the problem with fictional backstory.

[OldPhiKap]

If you invent enough backstory () then sure, it all starts to look shady. That's the problem with fictional backstory.

That's what always dooms Doofenschmirtz.

[Dev11]

A student's living for free at his coach's $650,000 rental property is clearly an improper benefit.

Is the student a student-athlete? I don't think Graves is currently on an athletic scholarship, nor is he even on the basketball team, so I don't see how this is an impermissible benefit.

Is it shady? Sure, but coaches and programs don't get punished for merely appearing shady.

If there is evidence of actual violations, I am confident in the tinfoil hat army at Pack Pride to discover it and to display it in elaborate charts.

[FerryFor50]

I would have been surprised to learn that Coach K is a jeweler.

I'm not especially surprised to learn that Roy rents out a house, given that lots of rich people own more than one house.

If you invent enough backstory (Graves is paid under the table, it's all hidden from the NCAA, etc.) then sure, it all starts to look shady. That's the problem with fictional backstory.

I don't think you need fictional backstory to see the conflict of interest here.

College coach rents house to his former player that he kicked off the team.

Just on the surface, there is a hint of impropriety there. It's a slippery slope that invites the recruiting tactic of "come to my school and I'll take care of you financially no matter what."

The questions yet to be answered:

- Was the rent on par with what other people would pay?
- Did every other student have an equal chance to rent that property at the amount Graves rented it?
- Were there other perks to renting from Roy?
- As a landlord, how did Roy not have better knowledge of what was going on at the house?

At best, it's a well-meaning coach doing something that raises some eyebrows. But given the fact that Roy has been busted for giving post-graduation gifts to players before and the current state of UNC athletics, wouldn't it be prudent for UNC to avoid situations like this?

[oldnavy]

The only rational, possible "benefit" of having Graves come back for UNC was to keep the APR up.

What happened to the concern from everybody around here about the importance of education all of a sudden? Even if you buy into the cynical notion that the APR is the only reason why Roy was helping him out, isn't that what a coach is supposed to do when he recruits a player? Help him achieve the promise of a college education?

Time to move on from this non story, I'd say.

What happened to using good sense?

No one owes Will Graves anything as far as I can tell. Didn't Will defiantly break the rules to such an extent that Roy kicked him off the team? How bad did he have to be for Roy to cut him loose???

I would suggest that Will forfeited the "promise" of an education when he wouldn't abide by team rules.

PJ is running around in rental cars supplied by felons and Roy is hanging on to him like a hair on a biscuit, so I can't imagine how far Will had to push the envelope to get booted.

Come on Wheat, you know that this doesn't add up. Why do you think that there is some unfilled obligation to Will Graves that Roy must fill?

Do you think Will was unjustly kicked off the team and this is how Roy is making things right?

I ask again, who in their right mind would believe it to be a good idea to give access to a property you own to a "kid" who cannot stop smoking dope despite multiple warnings and severe consequences?

RW: Hey Will you stopped smoking weed?
WG: Sure coach.
RW: Ok, here are the keys to my second home... behave now!


Bob's right, at this point with Will, Roy is only an enabler... or just really naïve.

[sagegrouse]

The only rational, possible "benefit" of having Graves come back for UNC was to keep the APR up.



If a kid gets a degree, isn't that a benefit to all, at least a psychic benefit? -- sage

[BD80]

If a kid gets a degree, isn't that a benefit to all, at least a psychic benefit? -- sage

A degree from UNC has value, particularly to athletes (although non-athletes took the same courses),

you learn how not to show up for work, and how to pick a path that requires no work.

Looks like ol' roy is just continuing Will's education

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Come on Wheat, you know that this doesn't add up. Why do you think that there is some unfilled obligation to Will Graves that Roy must fill?



Yes, he feels an obligation.

I think Roy is loyal to the players he recruits. Despite the dismissal, once a Tar Heel always a Tar Heel and Roy does think he owes him every bit of help he can give him to become successful.

Here's what he said back when he had to dismiss him...

“I hate this for Will. He worked extremely hard this summer to get himself physically in the best shape he’s been in years, but he did not do everything he needed to do to be a part of our basketball program,” Williams said in the statement. ”This is a huge blow to our team, but an even bigger blow for Will. Playing for the Tar Heels meant so much to him.”

So I think he liked Graves, but it was something he felt he had to do at the time.

The kid came back for one semester to finish his degree, which I understand he did, from his job from out of the country.
His UNC career is over. Roy supports his determination to finish his degree by helping him out with a rental house, which the athletic department says he paid rent for, but I could care less if he didn't, what the heck would it matter? He's done.

Maybe some of you think Graves is a knucklehead and you could have kicked him to the curb...no problem.

But Roy Williams is the one who sat in his living room as a recruit and promised him he would look out for him if he came to UNC, and Roy Williams evidently takes that promise seriously.

That's how I see it.

[Turk]

A graduate's getting paid a fair wage for performing your job duties is not an improper benefit.

A student's living for free at his coach's $650,000 rental property is clearly an improper benefit.

You keep using the word "clearly." I don't think it means what you think it means.

The WTVD link upthread quotes unc as saying Graves paid for the house. So they are claiming Graves got his rent money from somewhere, just like Lance Thomas got his jewelry money from somewhere, and where it came from is really none of your business or mine. In your link about the Kansas "improper benefit" violations to graduating players, "the amounts generally were in the $25 to $50 range and possibly as high as $200." That qualifies as a golden parachute only if you land on the roof of a Burger King. I don't understand why you think this "improper benefits" witch hunt is so important, when it would be just another example of the overreach and complete lack of common sense by the NCAA.

That being said, the once-proud standards of the unc program are in tatters, and Ol' Roy's blind spot for Graves and the other misbehaving players is bringing more disgrace to the university (never mind whatever nitpicking the NCAA might dream up). I don't want my archrivals to turn into Miami-Chapel Hill, an SEC school, or a collegiate version of the Portland Jail Blazers. I also feel bad for our friend Wheat, which must be even more galling than the fallout from Carolina's legal and academic misadventures. Getting pity from members of the Duke community must be like giving him a nice paper cut and pouring lemon juice on it.

P.S. Props to Stickdog for the "Wheels for Heels" line; if I was sipping coffee I would have spewed all over the computer.

[FerryFor50]

You keep using the word "clearly." I don't think it means what you think it means.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8y-qy9N01I

[throatybeard]

What IS fair-market rent on a $650K house? I'm asking because I have no idea.

No one in my family--including my grandfather who bankrolled my entire tuition at Duke when it was cheaper in the mid-90s--has ever owned a house valued at more than $250K. I can't even imagine what the rent on such a place would be.

[Des Esseintes]

What IS fair-market rent on a $650K house? I'm asking because I have no idea.

No one in my family--including my grandfather who bankrolled my entire tuition at Duke when it was cheaper in the mid-90s--has ever owned a house valued at more than $250K. I can't even imagine what the rent on such a place would be.

Well, an 800 sq ft 1-bedroom apartment in Park Slope, Brooklyn goes for around that (and often more). You can rent it for $3000-4000.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

What IS fair-market rent on a $650K house? I'm asking because I have no idea.

No one in my family--including my grandfather who bankrolled my entire tuition at Duke when it was cheaper in the mid-90s--has ever owned a house valued at more than $250K. I can't even imagine what the rent on such a place would be.

For you, I'd probably rent you mine for about $3000 a month, with a big up front deposit.

For somebody else, I might just let them stay for a couple of months for nothing since I own it and can do what I want.

:)

[sagegrouse]

What IS fair-market rent on a $650K house? I'm asking because I have no idea.

No one in my family--including my grandfather who bankrolled my entire tuition at Duke when it was cheaper in the mid-90s--has ever owned a house valued at more than $250K. I can't even imagine what the rent on such a place would be.

It's been a while since I had a rental residence, but the thought usually was that the rent would cover the cash flow and that you made your money on property appreciation. Roy bought the place for $400 thousand. If he financed it all at 5 percent, his interest payments would be $20 thousand per year or about, $1,667 per month. Then there's taxes and insurance, which would be a few hundred per month. He would break even in cash terms at under $2500 per month.

Likely case is that Roy paid cash for the property, and if he needed a loan, he didn't mess with a mortgage but simply borrowed against his semi-massive financial assets. (K's are "massive.") His out-of-pocket expenses are property taxes insurance, and then property repairs and upkeep. Surely he doesn't depend on a 25YO to take care of the grounds. Without a mortgage, his out-of-pocket costs are, I guess, well under $10 thousand per year, or minimal rent.

You guys know better than I do what's the rental market for a nice house in CH.

sage
'Read this over, and I don't think I made much sense'

[throatybeard]

Well, an 800 sq ft 1-bedroom apartment in Park Slope, Brooklyn goes for around that (and often more). You can rent it for $3000-4000.

Yeahbut, that's an extreme example. I know Chapel Hill got a lot more expensive in the mid and late 1990s, but it ain't New! York! City!

We're renting out an 800sqft 2 bedroom we used to lived in, here, in flyover country. We're losing about $150/month on it, although that's mostly, no, all, the condo fees.

[OldPhiKap]

Yeahbut, that's an extreme example. I know Chapel Hill got a lot more expensive in the mid and late 1990s, but it ain't New! York! City!

We're renting out an 800sqft 2 bedroom we used to lived in, here, in flyover country. We're losing about $150/month on it, although that's mostly, no, all, the condo fees.

I am guessing that a college town like CH has a robust rental market. Not sure it is still true, but Duke used to guarantee on-campus housing for all four years (undergrad) if you wanted it. Larger schools like UNC, I doubt that is the case, And even if so, I would think the number of renting students (undergrad and grad) is really stout.

[Newton_14]

For you, I'd probably rent you mine for about $3000 a month, with a big up front deposit.

For somebody else, I might just let them stay for a couple of months for nothing since I own it and can do what I want.

:)

There's your problem. Just like Roy and UNC you fully believe you can "do what I want". That's what got your school into this 3 year and counting mess. It's embarassing. I miss Dean Smith. (Now I need a shower).

Whether we like the rules or not, think they are stupid (some are) or not, they must be followed or we open ourselves up for the consequences. I don't know if Roy violated the rule or not (and again it is a rule, whether you like it or not, look it up. It's posted in this thread). If Will was paying fair market value rent, then there was no violation. End of story, except for yet another UNC player or ex-player in the news for all the wrong reasons. If Will was paying substantially less than fair market value, or nothing at all, then per the rule it is a violation and Roy/UNC could be penalized.

It's common sense. If a coach or school promised a recruit that they would pay them millions of dollars, or give them brand new cars or houses or something, "right after you graduate son so it's all legal and whatnot" you don't think that impacts a kid's decision on where he is going to play his college hoops?

Let's see mom an dad, here are my choices, I can go to School X, and get nothing from them when I leave, or I can go to school "Y" and they will give me $1 million dollars, a brand new car of my choice, and a free rental house, right after graduation. Which school do you thing the kid is going to choose?

UNC is in sad shape. Two rows behind me tonight in Cameron were 3 UNC fans in UNC shirts, who apparently came to the Duke/GardnerWebb game for the sole purpose of bringing attention to their poor victim PJ Hairston. They held up signs and chanted "Free PJ". There are billboards on I-85 that read "Free PJ". Only at UNC do rule breakers get turned into helpless victims.

[77devil]

For you, I'd probably rent you mine for about $3000 a month, with a big up front deposit.

For somebody else, I might just let them stay for a couple of months for nothing since I own it and can do what I want.

:)

I suspect you, and perhaps Roy in this instance, instead of charging rent would pay a former player to house sit. Why not? Apparently Roy thinks, like you, that he can do what he wants.

[johnb]

Yeahbut, that's an extreme example. I know Chapel Hill got a lot more expensive in the mid and late 1990s, but it ain't New! York! City!



I think there is the general aim to at least break even monthly and make the money on appreciation, but the rent tends to get set based on the rental market, which oscillates differently from the sales market (and is affected in New York by the reality that people often need to put down at least 20% cash to buy (a lot of expensive co-ops require 50%), which cuts out people who don't have six or seven figures in the bank... so lots of renters and lots of small apartments.

Anyway, the rental for a $650,000 home might be similar whether you're in NYC or Chapel Hill, but the specific market rent for ol Roy's dad gum house would depend on local comparables and the rental market rather than what he personally has to pay on a mortgage and monthly upkeep.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

There's your problem. Just like Roy and UNC you fully believe you can "do what I want". That's what got your school into this 3 year and counting mess. It's embarassing. I miss Dean Smith. (Now I need a shower).

Whether we like the rules or not, think they are stupid (some are) or not, they must be followed or we open ourselves up for the consequences. I don't know if Roy violated the rule or not (and again it is a rule, whether you like it or not, look it up. It's posted in this thread). If Will was paying fair market value rent, then there was no violation. End of story, except for yet another UNC player or ex-player in the news for all the wrong reasons. If Will was paying substantially less than fair market value, or nothing at all, then per the rule it is a violation and Roy/UNC could be penalized.

It's common sense. If a coach or school promised a recruit that they would pay them millions of dollars, or give them brand new cars or houses or something, "right after you graduate son so it's all legal and whatnot" you don't think that impacts a kid's decision on where he is going to play his college hoops?

Let's see mom an dad, here are my choices, I can go to School X, and get nothing from them when I leave, or I can go to school "Y" and they will give me $1 million dollars, a brand new car of my choice, and a free rental house, right after graduation. Which school do you thing the kid is going to choose?

UNC is in sad shape. Two rows behind me tonight in Cameron were 3 UNC fans in UNC shirts, who apparently came to the Duke/GardnerWebb game for the sole purpose of bringing attention to their poor victim PJ Hairston. They held up signs and chanted "Free PJ". There are billboards on I-85 that read "Free PJ". Only at UNC do rule breakers get turned into helpless victims.

Well, I guess you missed the smiley...

So we are arguing passionately over a kid who's college career is over and who came back, trying to get his degree, (which he did)...and where he slept at night.

Just trying to keep things in prospective.

It's all so petty, and fueled by nothing more than a sports rivalry.

I live in the real world and see none of the issues you seem so concerned about with the Graves situation.

Call me a rebel, or revolutionary, out of touch or just plain defiant, but if the NCAA thinks that Roy did a bad thing helping Will Graves out just that little tiny bit with a place to stay to finish his degree...then they can stick it where the sun don't shine and we'll take one more step towards the rebellion that is coming to end that pitiful, greedy, dysfunctional, institution.

#freesomecommonsense

[oldnavy]

Yes, he feels an obligation.

I think Roy is loyal to the players he recruits. Despite the dismissal, once a Tar Heel always a Tar Heel and Roy does think he owes him every bit of help he can give him to become successful.

Here's what he said back when he had to dismiss him...

“I hate this for Will. He worked extremely hard this summer to get himself physically in the best shape he’s been in years, but he did not do everything he needed to do to be a part of our basketball program,” Williams said in the statement. ”This is a huge blow to our team, but an even bigger blow for Will. Playing for the Tar Heels meant so much to him.”

So I think he liked Graves, but it was something he felt he had to do at the time.

The kid came back for one semester to finish his degree, which I understand he did, from his job from out of the country.
His UNC career is over. Roy supports his determination to finish his degree by helping him out with a rental house, which the athletic department says he paid rent for, but I could care less if he didn't, what the heck would it matter? He's done.

Maybe some of you think Graves is a knucklehead and you could have kicked him to the curb...no problem.

But Roy Williams is the one who sat in his living room as a recruit and promised him he would look out for him if he came to UNC, and Roy Williams evidently takes that promise seriously.

That's how I see it.
It matters because, A. It is against the rules. and B. It is a really STUPID way to try and "help" someone who has proven over and over that they cannot make good decisions.
You don't give the keys to a semi-mansion sized pad to a troubled youth and not expect that trouble is just around the corner.

Like I said before, Roy may have the best of intentions, however his decision making is almost as bad as Will Graves'.

As far as feeling an obligation, the only way I see that Roy or any rational person would feel remorse at removing Will from the team, would be if they didn't give the kid a fair shot at fixing his behavior. Maybe Roy had one of his moments and hastily kicked WG off the team in a fit of some sort without due process... IDK

If not, then Ol Roy needs to go back to his massage therapist for some counseling to get over his delusion that he is the patron Saint of "young men who do really dumb things".

What would be a reasonable approach would be to help Will out by hooking him up with an accountability partner (assistant coach, staff member, mature grad student) and lay down specific conditions for the help to continue. Have him stay in someone's house for the semester that can keep an eye on him and truly "help" him learn what he needs to know to be responsible and stay out of trouble. If Roy thinks that giving (literally or figuratively) the keys to Will is all that it takes to "help" him, then he is really a terrible leader and the exact opposite of what a true mentor should be and NOT someone you would want your kids to play for. I took in a kid who needed a place to stay to finish out some school. I took responsibility for the kid and told him the "house rules", and I was actively involved with monitoring his behavior. We had a couple of course corrections along the way, but the kid soon figured out that what he had to do to make thing work.

NEVER EVER EVER in a million years would I have just given the kid the keys to a house I owned and let him "do his thing"... to me that would be irresponsible on MY part and REALLY dumb.

IF how you see it is true, then Roy is just perpetuating a problem that probably has faced Will his entire life... being given things because he can play basketball and being told that the rules really don't apply to him or those who have a certain skill set. Roy's way has now led to public embarrassment (kicked off team) and an arrest record. Some help.

[slower]

I live in the real world

No, you live in YOUR OWN "real world", just like everybody else on the planet.

You're funny, man. Your function on this board is mostly that of a foil, occasionally a troll, sometimes a seemingly-neutral fan, and quite often a UNC apologist. But sometimes it seems like you think you have some sort of "cloak of invisibility" that obscures your basic motives/orientation from the rest of us.

News flash - you don't. We all know where you're coming from.

THAT is the "real world", DBR-style.

[Newton_14]

Well, I guess you missed the smiley...

So we are arguing passionately over a kid who's college career is over and who came back, trying to get his degree, (which he did)...and where he slept at night.

Just trying to keep things in prospective.

It's all so petty, and fueled by nothing more than a sports rivalry.

I live in the real world and see none of the issues you seem so concerned about with the Graves situation.

Call me a rebel, or revolutionary, out of touch or just plain defiant, but if the NCAA thinks that Roy did a bad thing helping Will Graves out just that little tiny bit with a place to stay to finish his degree...then they can stick it where the sun don't shine and we'll take one more step towards the rebellion that is coming to end that pitiful, greedy, dysfunctional, institution.

#freesomecommonsense

Apparently I live in a world much more real than you and I have not shown one ounce of "concern" in this thread or any other thread over Will Graves and whether or not there was a violation. I simply pointed out that it is in fact a rule (and it has to be in place) and that you, like the 3 guys in Cameron last night, along with 99.9% of the UNC fanbase, along with the school, should be outraged over the mess that is UNC Athletics. Instead all of you are running around defending wrong-doings and portraying the school and the players that broke NCAA rules and the law, as victims.

Like many others here have pointed out, I used to take great pride in the rivalry because both schools did things the right way. No more. UNC has clearly shown over the last 3 years they are about winning at all costs, and keeping players eligible via any manner possible, while also turning a blind eye to the agents, runners (including one on the Football Staff), and felons like Fats, that are hanging all over the UNC players. Heck, your own dental school was using players to pimp out their fancy mouthguards.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You way over analyze me.

I'm just a college basketball fan that pulls for UNC.

Everything else you see me comment on is just what I think. Please feel free to disagree.

I'm fortunate enough to have survived past 50. I'm self employed and financially independent. I do and say what I want to, and that's pretty much it.

I try to always be civil and respectful to differing opinions, but I don't spend a lot of time worrying what other people think, you older guys know where I'm coming from.

I'm off to the next thread that interests me...

[oldnavy]

You way over analyze me.

I'm just a college basketball fan that pulls for UNC.

Everything else you see me comment on is just what I think. Please feel free to disagree.

I'm fortunate enough to have survived past 50. I'm self employed and financially independent. I do and say what I want to, and that's pretty much it.

I try to always be civil and respectful to differing opinions, but I don't spend a lot of time worrying what other people think, you older guys know where I'm coming from.

I'm off to the next thread that interests me...

I respect your opinions Wheat, I just don't agree with them on this issue. I agree that the NCAA is NOT virtuous or perhaps even a good organization and that at some point, major changes are coming and probably over due. But for now it is the system and if you agree to be in the system, then you agree to play by the rules while in the system.

You seem to think that this is only about the good intentions and well meaning (i.e., Roy is the Mother Teresa of college basketball). I see it as Roy making really poor decisions and being part of a problem and not part of a solution to the problem. Will is someone who obviously needs some structure, not a flop house...

There is a clear pattern emerging from UNC of leaders making poor decisions. Leadership comes from the top. Roy sets the tone of the MBB organization. When he uses poor judgment and willfully places UNC, himself and the reputation of the basketball program at risk he should be called on it and no one should be surprised when his players take his lead and make poor decisions.

While we are at it, what about PJ? Is the only reason he is being held out is to avoid forfeiting games?? That's amazingly weak it true.

You know what I would have respected? If Roy had come out and suspended PJ for X amount of games based on what they knew or suspected (if they couldn't know). I would have more respect for UNC right now if they had suspended PJ for 5 games and he was back now. As it is, they are letting the NCAA take charge and showing no backbone at all IMO.

Hey, if you think the NCAA is whacked, then what better statement to make than "we are suspending PJ for X games and he will be back on X date... we know what is best for UNC and PJ and the heck with the NCAA".

So what if the NCAA has you forfeit some games down the road... you guys should wear that as a badge of honor if you really think that change is needed.... as it is now you guys seem to be attempting to avoid punishment by kissing the NCAA's rear end all the while complaining about how unfair the NCAA is. Tell the NCAA to stick it!! I'd respect the heck out of that!

[Matches]

Whether we like the rules or not, think they are stupid (some are) or not, they must be followed or we open ourselves up for the consequences. I don't know if Roy violated the rule or not (and again it is a rule, whether you like it or not, look it up. It's posted in this thread). If Will was paying fair market value rent, then there was no violation. End of story, except for yet another UNC player or ex-player in the news for all the wrong reasons. If Will was paying substantially less than fair market value, or nothing at all, then per the rule it is a violation and Roy/UNC could be penalized.


Sure - but there are crimes, and there are crimes of moral turpitude, and one is only a subset of the other. If this was a rules violation (and as you note, it IS an "if"), then I'd expect Roy/ UNC to get dinged. Some folks here seem to want him brought up on charges, though, and IMO that's way out of proportion to the offense. This isn't some corrupt coach buying players - it's, at worst, a well-intentioned Coach doing something to help a guy out, possibly a dumb idea but not a war crime. If it's a rules violation so be it, but lumping this in with Fats and AFAM and all that seems to me to be misplaced.

[oldnavy]

Sure - but there are crimes, and there are crimes of moral turpitude, and one is only a subset of the other. If this was a rules violation (and as you note, it IS an "if"), then I'd expect Roy/ UNC to get dinged. Some folks here seem to want him brought up on charges, though, and IMO that's way out of proportion to the offense. This isn't some corrupt coach buying players - it's, at worst, a well-intentioned Coach doing something to help a guy out, possibly a dumb idea but not a war crime. If it's a rules violation so be it, but lumping this in with Fats and AFAM and all that seems to me to be misplaced.

Kind of hard to take each issue as a stand alone issue at this point. The problem is, that they are part of a pattern and NOT isolated cases.

I think that folks rushing to Roy's defense and claiming that he is just an amazingly nice and caring fellow without any flaw except perhaps being too amazingly nice and caring are missing a larger issue.

If Roy truly is THAT nice of a guy, then good for him.... but he is definitely guilty of weak and misguided decision making which I would say is counter productive to the goal of "helping" these kids.

[Newton_14]

Sure - but there are crimes, and there are crimes of moral turpitude, and one is only a subset of the other. If this was a rules violation (and as you note, it IS an "if"), then I'd expect Roy/ UNC to get dinged. Some folks here seem to want him brought up on charges, though, and IMO that's way out of proportion to the offense. This isn't some corrupt coach buying players - it's, at worst, a well-intentioned Coach doing something to help a guy out, possibly a dumb idea but not a war crime. If it's a rules violation so be it, but lumping this in with Fats and AFAM and all that seems to me to be misplaced.

Fair point, and again we don't know if a rule was violated or not. That point is very valid.

There are two reasons why I feel it is fair to lump this in with the ongoing saga. First, and most obvious, if your school has been under the microscope for 3 years running involving both major sports, then it would be very wise to clean house, tighten up the ship, and insure that not only is there no impropriety anywhere in the programs, there isn't even a hint of impropriety. Meaning if you have to ask the compliance department if it is ok or not, then it is best not to do it. Second, it is just very arrogant. Roy and UNC believe they can do whatever they want when they want. Again, with all the problems of the past few years, you would think there would be a bit of fear. It's not there.

If the Graves thing was the only embarassing press for UNC in years or something, then on its own, it is not a huge deal. It's not though. Plus Roy's actions with Will are that of an enabler. OldNavy said it better than me, but if you are truly trying to help the kid, you find him a room to rent, in one of your trusted friends house, who will help Will focus on school and stay out of trouble. Handing him the keys to a mansion, even if Will was paying fair rent (which it's certainly possible he did) is not a smart thing to do.

Again, I am not suggesting the NCAA should slap some penalty on the program for this. I am saying that even it there was no violation at all, it just looks bad, and added together with all the other stuff, it knocks another pillar of the foundation off the block.

[OldPhiKap]

Kind of hard to take each issue as a stand alone issue at this point. The problem is, that they are part of a pattern and NOT isolated cases.

I think that folks rushing to Roy's defense and claiming that he is just an amazingly nice and caring fellow without any flaw except perhaps being too amazingly nice and caring are missing a larger issue.

If Roy truly is THAT nice of a guy, then good for him.... but he is definitely guilty of weak and misguided decision making which I would say is counter productive to the goal of "helping" these kids.

Someone upthread made a comment that has stuck with me -- that Roy just seems very detached from what is going on around him. I kind of get the Bobby Bowden feeling -- he has his system, he recuits his players, he turns the nuts and bolts over to his assistants and the staff.

I could be wholly wrong -- I know that "Roy Williams has more 'give a @#$#' about Carolina in his little pinky" than all the fans, and all -- but he clearly is either unaware of what his charges are doing or he is remaining wilfully ignorant. I lean towards the former, understanding the view of those who say that he is not entitled to the benefit of my doubt.

[Reilly]

... he is definitely guilty of weak and misguided decision making ...

He lets things spiral out of control .... then calls timeout too late.

And then it's always somebody else's fault (PJ's, Will's, the ncaa's, the bus driver's for not hitting the body directly as instructed ...).

He's the head coach. It's his program. It's a reflection on him. Compare to, say, David Cutcliffe, who knows what's going on in his program, has systems and checks in place, and takes action, immediately, when warranted.

[Kfanarmy]

Sounds like Roscoe and Cletus showed up just as Jesse's house guest lit one up on the back patio and didn't have enough sense to call Boss Hogg before embarassing the whole county.

While this is somewhat funny stuff, I really don't see anything news worthy. Unless, of course, Graves was really "tenden the farm" for Ol' Roy and blew the whole Drugs for Cars operation by not being able to keep his hands off the product.

[moonpie23]

I'm just a college basketball fan that pulls for UNC.



hold up….i think i'm onto something here…..

[Indoor66]

Doesn't this all represent an extreme example of Lack of Institutional Control? It crosses academic departments, the athletic department, coaches, administrators, tutors, professors, department heads, dental school, AA Studies department, outside manufacturers (mouthguards), insiders and outsiders, etc. When is enough enough?

[rasputin]

It matters because, A. It is against the rules. and B. It is a really STUPID way to try and "help" someone who has proven over and over that they cannot make good decisions.
You don't give the keys to a semi-mansion sized pad to a troubled youth and not expect that trouble is just around the corner.

Like I said before, Roy may have the best of intentions, however his decision making is almost as bad as Will Graves'.

As far as feeling an obligation, the only way I see that Roy or any rational person would feel remorse at removing Will from the team, would be if they didn't give the kid a fair shot at fixing his behavior. Maybe Roy had one of his moments and hastily kicked WG off the team in a fit of some sort without due process... IDK

If not, then Ol Roy needs to go back to his massage therapist for some counseling to get over his delusion that he is the patron Saint of "young men who do really dumb things".

What would be a reasonable approach would be to help Will out by hooking him up with an accountability partner (assistant coach, staff member, mature grad student) and lay down specific conditions for the help to continue. Have him stay in someone's house for the semester that can keep an eye on him and truly "help" him learn what he needs to know to be responsible and stay out of trouble. If Roy thinks that giving (literally or figuratively) the keys to Will is all that it takes to "help" him, then he is really a terrible leader and the exact opposite of what a true mentor should be and NOT someone you would want your kids to play for. I took in a kid who needed a place to stay to finish out some school. I took responsibility for the kid and told him the "house rules", and I was actively involved with monitoring his behavior. We had a couple of course corrections along the way, but the kid soon figured out that what he had to do to make thing work.

NEVER EVER EVER in a million years would I have just given the kid the keys to a house I owned and let him "do his thing"... to me that would be irresponsible on MY part and REALLY dumb.

IF how you see it is true, then Roy is just perpetuating a problem that probably has faced Will his entire life... being given things because he can play basketball and being told that the rules really don't apply to him or those who have a certain skill set. Roy's way has now led to public embarrassment (kicked off team) and an arrest record. Some help.

This isn't just about "remorse," which is what you have when you have done something you shouldn't have. Sometimes authority figures have to do things they would rather not do, by way of discipline. My role as a school district attorney often involves me in student suspensions and expulsions. It doesn't leave you feeling warm and fuzzy, and so I can understand if Ol'Roy felt bad about booting Graves and wanted to do something else to help him. It doesn't mean he feels he shouldn't have kicked him off the team. You have to do what you have to do.

Except when you are Ol'Roy and you punish a serial miscreant by taking away his dinner-place-picking privileges.

[J.Blink]

He lets things spiral out of control .... then calls timeout too late.

...

He's the head coach. It's his program. It's a reflection on him. Compare to, say, David Cutcliffe, who knows what's going on in his program, has systems and checks in place, and takes action, immediately, when warranted.

WRAL:


Thomas told WRAL he barely knows any of these UNC basketball players, calling them “passing acquaintances.” But, on Thomas' Facebook page, WRAL found another UNC connection - Thomas is friends with former Tar Heels basketball player Barnes.

Even more Twitter posts from a now-deleted account show Thomas has relationships with former Duke wide receiver Desmond Scott and former Durham Riverside stand out Weslye Saunders

WRAL Link (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/list-of-current-former-unc-players-tied-to-convicted-felon-growing/12695738/)

I will be the first to agree that there is a world of difference between Cut and K and Roy and Butch/Fedora. I believe that Duke fans universally want programs that both win and are clean. In fact, I've been rather shocked at how how many UNC coworkers and friends are completely dismissive of PJ's infractions, the AFAM classes, etc. I honestly thought UNC fans felt the same way about their programs. How do they look down on Kentucky now?

Anyway, even with tough rules and expectations, kids can still do stupid things. There are allegations--and only allegations--that Desmond Scott and Fats were connected (as a Durham native, this seems believable). I certainly hope that things went no farther than "having a relationship." I certainly have no reason to believe that anything unsavory was going on. Given what I know of Desmond Scott, I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt! Realistically though, if one football player out of 100 is hanging around someone unsavory and borrowing cars, etc, how would anyone at the school ever know? You'd have to be incredibly stupid (see PJ) to get caught.

[throatybeard]

I'm fortunate enough to have survived past 50. I'm self employed and financially independent. I do and say what I want to, and that's pretty much it.

I try to always be civil and respectful to differing opinions, but I don't spend a lot of time worrying what other people think, you older guys know where I'm coming from.

What does any of this have to do with age?

[Duvall]

WRAL:



WRAL Link (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/list-of-current-former-unc-players-tied-to-convicted-felon-growing/12695738/)

I will be the first to agree that there is a world of difference between Cut and K and Roy and Butch/Fedora. I believe that Duke fans universally want programs that both win and are clean. In fact, I've been rather shocked at how how many UNC coworkers and friends are completely dismissive of PJ's infractions, the AFAM classes, etc. I honestly thought UNC fans felt the same way about their programs. How do they look down on Kentucky now?

Anyway, even with tough rules and expectations, kids can still do stupid things. There are allegations--and only allegations--that Desmond Scott and Fats were connected (as a Durham native, this seems believable). I certainly hope that things went no farther than "having a relationship." I certainly have no reason to believe that anything unsavory was going on. Given what I know of Desmond Scott, I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt! Realistically though, if one football player out of 100 is hanging around someone unsavory and borrowing cars, etc, how would anyone at the school ever know? You'd have to be incredibly stupid (see PJ) to get caught.

It's worth noting that the "Twitter connections" between Scott and Thomas consisted of both men knowing and communicating with some of the same Hillside grads. WRAL didn't exactly distinguish themselves with that report.

[oldnavy]

This isn't just about "remorse," which is what you have when you have done something you shouldn't have. Sometimes authority figures have to do things they would rather not do, by way of discipline. My role as a school district attorney often involves me in student suspensions and expulsions. It doesn't leave you feeling warm and fuzzy, and so I can understand if Ol'Roy felt bad about booting Graves and wanted to do something else to help him. It doesn't mean he feels he shouldn't have kicked him off the team. You have to do what you have to do.

Except when you are Ol'Roy and you punish a serial miscreant by taking away his dinner-place-picking privileges.

I agree, it isn't fun or enjoyable to discipline. Even when the ones you have to discipline are not good people it isn't enjoyable unless you are some type of sadist. I was just suggesting that remorse for being too quick to cut WG, may be one explanation for why Roy would check his good sense at the door and let Will have access to his property.

I have no idea what is really going on with Roy and his program, but from what little we can read about, it seems to me that Roy is either not fully engaged (being polite) or he is just really gullible to being sucked into helping folks that have no respect for him or care how their actions impact him.

My "guess" is that Roy is not fully engaged and just wants to be the "nice" uncle figure instead of the "responsible" father figure. The problem is that these young men often have a bunch of "nice" uncles who are willing to use them to get what they can, and no strong father figure who will hold them accountable and teach them responsibility. It is much more fun and easy to be the "nice" guy.

[BD80]

Coincidence this issue with respect to ol' roy's country club flop house comes out concurrently with this scandal in Japan?

The entire leadership of the PGA of Japan "—all 91 representatives, including chairman Shizuo Mori, four vice chairman around 20 board directors—will voluntarily give up their posts in an effort to shore up public trust in the organization.

The decision stems from the scandalous news that between March and June of 2013, then-PGA vice chairman Shinsaku Maeda, 61 and board director Tadayoshi Bando, 67, dined and played golf with the head of a yakuza organized crime syndicate on the Japanese island of Kyushu.

That isn’t just bad etiquette. It’s a rules violation. PGA policy forbids organization brass from hobnobbing with crime bosses."

http://hotlinks.golf.com/2013/12/18/taint-of-organized-crime-leads-to-mass-resignation-at-japanese-pga-2/?sct=hp1&eref=sihp

Is Fats a member of the Japanese mafia? Has ol' roy been consorting with the Yakuza? Inquiring minds ...

[jamesfrommaiden]

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=9359530
Who would expect anything less coming from UNC these days?