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wandalee
12-12-2013, 08:45 PM
Big game on Tues night vs UConn. It would be great to have a full house. General admission tickets are only $4 and reserved seats are $9 is you buy at goduke.com using the promo code DukePERQ (you may have to have a valid Dukecard for this price - not sure).

uh_no
12-15-2013, 10:58 AM
duke's game notes are up. some interesting tidbits

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209340224

and from uconn:

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/121513aab.html

there is no word on the return of connecticuts Kalena Mosqueda-Lewis, but it was reported that she might return to practice last week, so nobody knows if she will be back, thought that would likely have a big impact on the game

Gargoyle
12-15-2013, 03:33 PM
duke's game notes are up. some interesting tidbits

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209340224

and from uconn:

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/121513aab.html

there is no word on the return of connecticuts Kalena Mosqueda-Lewis, but it was reported that she might return to practice last week, so nobody knows if she will be back, thought that would likely have a big impact on the game

Tuck and Mosqueda-Lewis are both probable for Tuesday's game.

uh_no
12-15-2013, 04:18 PM
Tuck and Mosqueda-Lewis are both probable for Tuesday's game.

where have you seen that? out of curiousity.

Gargoyle
12-15-2013, 05:04 PM
where have you seen that? out of curiousity.

John Altivilla (Hartford Courant):

“They are both probable,” Auriemma said. “It’s just a matter of how much they can play.”

brevity
12-15-2013, 05:35 PM
John Altivilla (Hartford Courant):

“They are both probable,” Auriemma said. “It’s just a matter of how much they can play.”

Links to sources are helpful.

http://courantblogs.com/uconn-women/auriemma-says-kml-and-tuck-probable-for-duke/

uh_no
12-15-2013, 05:56 PM
Big game on Tues night vs UConn. It would be great to have a full house. General admission tickets are only $4 and reserved seats are $9 is you buy at goduke.com using the promo code DukePERQ (you may have to have a valid Dukecard for this price - not sure).

unfortunately the students will already be heading homeside.....i don't know why the heck duke scheduled this after most exams have already ended......actually yes i do, and the key initialism would be E.S.P.N.

that said, i'm not sure why ESPN wouldn't want the student section packed for this....but i guess the pull of having a big time game for the jimmy v game was too great....

le sigh. hopefully at least some students will still be around.

wandalee
12-15-2013, 08:39 PM
The students really don't support WBB, so no big deal that they're on break.

Gargoyle
12-15-2013, 08:48 PM
The students really don't support WBB, so no big deal that they're on break.

But they might against CT, ND, UNC and MD. I believe it would be a big boost for the Duke women.

uh_no
12-15-2013, 08:55 PM
The students really don't support WBB, so no big deal that they're on break.

that's not fair to the students that DO come out for games, and they do exist

Having been to high profile uconn games at duke in the past that were during the semester (both as a student and alumnus), students WILL come out, but unfortunately they will not have the opportunity to this year

Boaz
12-16-2013, 07:08 AM
that's not fair to the students that DO come out for games, and they do exist

All 3 of them.

In all fairness, those three are just as Crazy as for the Men's. And most of the time members of other sports teams show up.

At the Maryland game last year, they taped off bleacher seats for the students. If you tape it off, they will come? Nah. Up until almost game time, this poor student monitor fended us Durhamites off, hoping his compadres would show. After those three students, and a few more, showed up, to avoid embarrassment, they let us fill the empty space.


Having been to high profile uconn games at duke in the past that were during the semester (both as a student and alumnus), students WILL come out, but unfortunately they will not have the opportunity to this year

Last year, I came for the last 10 minutes of the game (had to work, just like this year, darn Tuesday UCONN games). I paid more attention to the game than half the students around me. Having said that, a bunch of parents who have to leave early to get their kids to bed does not a cheering section make. I expect that even with the students there, the UCONN faithful would still match the students if not in numbers than in volume. UCONN brings the alumni in force. Guess a gazillion Final Fours and championships will motivate that.

Hoping for a 2 point victory, expecting a 10 point loss. Baby steps.

MCFinARL
12-16-2013, 07:47 AM
But they might against CT, ND, UNC and MD. I believe it would be a big boost for the Duke women.

My daughter ('08) was not a regular Crazy for either the men or the women, but she used to go to at least one big (on the level of Tennessee, UConn, UNC) women's game every year, and they usually had a pretty good student crowd for those, though she never needed to line up much before tipoff. I suspect they could do pretty well for UConn if school were in session. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

wandalee
12-17-2013, 11:29 AM
There are a few dedicated students who make it to the games, but not very many. Hopefully, those who are still in town will come cheer for the ladies. We need as many Duke fans in the crowd as possible. Probs to the PA announcer at the men's game last night who promoted the game on multiple occasions. It would have been a great time to have Coach P and some of the players on hand to encourage folks to buy tickets.

uh_no
12-17-2013, 11:38 AM
There are a few dedicated students who make it to the games, but not very many. Hopefully, those who are still in town will come cheer for the ladies. We need as many Duke fans in the crowd as possible. Probs to the PA announcer at the men's game last night who promoted the game on multiple occasions. It would have been a great time to have Coach P and some of the players on hand to encourage folks to buy tickets.

i've read it's near a sellout...so i think at least the ticketed seats should be close to packed

Dukehky
12-17-2013, 02:34 PM
The students would have filled up 3/4 of the students section if they were there for the UCONN game. While they're not going to go watch Duke play NC State, they will come to a top ten game.

Regardless, I think that it may actually prove to be a better environment without them tonight, because the only people there will be the ones that really want to be there instead of it just being something to do.

Headed there now. I just want it to be a good game. P is going to get out coached by Geno, but we have the talent to off-set that enough to win at home. Need a big night from beyond the arc. This is the time girls, let's do it.

Go Duke.

burnspbesq
12-17-2013, 03:44 PM
A few things to watch for:

Historically, one of UConn's core defensive principles was " they can't call everything." Well, this year they are trying to call anything. Will the Huskies still be able to deny the paint if they can't turn it into a mosh pit?

If Mosqueda-Lewis can't go or is at less than full speed, who is UConn's zone-buster?

Can Duke get good looks for Liston, and if so, how? Drive-and-dish, or throw it into the post and relocate? Related question, can Dolson handle EWill without help? If yes, that hurts Duke's inside-out game.

Can Gray and/or Jones keep Hartley out of the paint? Can Haley keep Stewart under control?

Duvall
12-17-2013, 05:20 PM
Tuck and Mosqueda-Lewis are both probable for Tuesday's game.

Both dressed and playing, of course.

-jk
12-17-2013, 05:29 PM
I think I saw UCon as a 9 point favorite.

-jk

Duvall
12-17-2013, 05:34 PM
I think I saw UCon as a 9 point favorite.

-jk

Are there sites that take wagers on women's college basketball? If so...

-jk
12-17-2013, 05:49 PM
Huge opportunity for the women! ESPN2. 7:00. Be there!

DBR Chat (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/misc.php?do=cchatbox) is open. Let's go Duke!

-jk

Duvall
12-17-2013, 05:59 PM
Huge opportunity for the women!

Eh, it's not like either team can win a championship tonight.

Duvall
12-17-2013, 06:24 PM
A few things to watch for:

Historically, one of UConn's core defensive principles was " they can't call everything." Well, this year they are trying to call anything. Will the Huskies still be able to deny the paint if they can't turn it into a mosh pit?

Assuming facts not in evidence.

MattC09
12-17-2013, 06:44 PM
I will admit to not paying much attention to the women's team after graduating, but it seems that teams under McCallie are solidly second tier in the women's basketball hierarchy. Uconn, Baylor, Stanford, and Notre Dame have been on a different level to Duke, despite Duke being almost continuously a top 10 team. Under Coach G, Duke was an elite team even though they never won the title. They beat or stayed competitive with Tennessee, Uconn, Maryland, etc.

What's the difference between the teams of the last few years that have gotten killed by the "elite" teams and the others? It seems like the team is always very good but never a genuine national title contender. Is it talent level, coaching, or something else? There have been some insanely good teams for Baylor and Uconn, admittedly.

AtlDuke72
12-17-2013, 06:52 PM
It is just too hard to watch with Doris Burke talking non stop. Does she get paid by the word?

Duvall
12-17-2013, 07:15 PM
What's the difference between the teams of the last few years that have gotten killed by the "elite" teams and the others? It seems like the team is always very good but never a genuine national title contender. Is it talent level, coaching, or something else?

That doesn't leave too many options.

It's both. UConn has better talent, and better developed talent, but the coaching deficit plays a big role.

GGLC
12-17-2013, 07:16 PM
It is just too hard to watch with Doris Burke talking non stop. Does she get paid by the word?

That's what makes it hard to watch?

chadlee989
12-17-2013, 07:29 PM
I hate to watch any game she calls. One game early on in the season for the men and i want to say the Davidson game. I put her on mute at the first tv timeout and found the radio channel and listen to Bob Harris call the game.

msdukie
12-17-2013, 09:30 PM
I hate to watch any game she calls. One game early on in the season for the men and i want to say the Davidson game. I put her on mute at the first tv timeout and found the radio channel and listen to Bob Harris call the game.

Lucky for you the Dave O'Brien/Doris Burke crew is the men's ACC ESPN midweek and weekend crew.

chadlee989
12-17-2013, 10:24 PM
Lucky for you the Dave O'Brien/Doris Burke crew is the men's ACC ESPN midweek and weekend crew.

Guess that means I will be going with the Bob Harris option more often than I had planned to

Troublemaker
12-17-2013, 10:28 PM
How is the Bob Harris option? Does the radio feed run behind the TV feed, thus making it easy to pause the TV & synch up? Or does the radio feed typically run ahead of the TV feed, thus no synch possible, unless there's a way to pause radio? Thanks!

Dukehky
12-17-2013, 10:57 PM
Well, I'm glad I had a two hour drive home from this game to settle down, because I most assuredly would have gotten some infractions if I had been able to post directly after/during the game.

First of all, in the first 15 minutes, I'm not sure if Duke could have played any worse. It really looked like they came out scared. Elizabeth Williams did not come to play at all tonight. Not that there's a better option behind her, but she was not good tonight.

I was proud with the effort the girls played with, they just played poorly, shot terribly. I said before the game that to win, we would have to be really good from deep. We weren't. I was disgusted with the coaching this game. Good gracious. How do you let UConn get rolling and not even try and stem the momentum by calling a timeout. Coach P did not use a timeout until the one minute mark of the first half. Are you serious. It was clear that Mosqueda Lewis was out of shape and that all she was going to do was stand in the corner and shoot threes, how does she keep getting open? Well, Coach P refused to come out of her one two two zone which they call "one" which leaves the corners extremely vulnerable. Very little adjustment, with results that show. Coach P was terrible tonight. I don't expect her to out coach Geno, who while I feel he is a total scumbag, is an incredible coach, but don't get dominated in the coaching department, jeeze its like she just bowed down to him tonight.

I actually don't think that their talent is that superior to our own. They have a better Center and Stewart was incredible in the first half, she made everything (again attributed to the insistence on playing zone), but overall we're not that far beneath them talent-wise, theoretically beating them wouldn't exactly be Duke over the 91 UNLV team. Which makes this 22 point drubbing, it should have been much worse, all the more embarrassing. I cannot tell people how proud I was when they cut it to 13, that showed real guts and real fight, but you know what happened when we did cut it to 13? Geno called a timeout and set up a play to get an open three. While the fact they made it made things worse, he still called a time out to stop our momentum a little bit. I mean the crowd was jacked at that point, it was men's games level loud, and they just totally shut that down like flipping a switch.

Please excuse me if this is harsh, but I care more about DWB in some ways than the men's team because I was a practice player for four whole years, I feel like I'm a part of the program (don't get me wrong, if you asked me which championship I'd prefer it would be the men's team hands down). I just felt that this was the year that Duke could potentially win the national championship with the experience and talent on the roster, and while this is only a december game, I'm not sure we can do that unless someone knocks UCONN off for us. Reactionary fan here maybe, but I don't have confidence in Coach P to prepare for and beat great teams. I would LOVE for her to prove me wrong, and have us beat UCONN in the national championship game or the semi's, but I would not bet money on that happening. You never know what can happen if you put game pressure on a team like this, but hot starts are essential, you can't climb back from double digit deficits and expect to win against Connecticut.

Okay, on to the next, Albany, should be a pushover, then a big time matchup against Kentucky at Kentucky, we'll see the resilience of this team. I would be shocked if Chelsea Gray and Haley Peters let this team lose to UK less than a week after a loss like this. Despite all my naysaying above, a final four would still be a big step for coach P's program, and I would be excited about it.

uh_no
12-17-2013, 11:14 PM
First on the macro:

if anyone doesn't think this duke team can't beat this uconn team in march is on something....lets look at the game in segments:

20:00-15:00 14-11 uconn
15:00-5:00 38-15 uconn (note: cumulative)
5:00-8:00 65-52 uconn
8:00-0 83-61

in the first and third segments of the game duke outscored uconn 48 to 41, in the second and fourth, uconn outscored them 35 to 20.

Lets be honest, for 22 minutes of the game, duke beat uconn, and for the 17 minutes surrounding the half, duke almost made them look silly...outscoring them 37-27 over that stretch, forcing bad shots and silly turnovers.....and even in the other segments of the game, duke didn't look beat, they looked like they were competing, and it showed when they turned the game on its head....they fought back, something that they haven't done.....it would be silly to think they can't do that the whole game in march...and without that 10 minute stretch in the first half that uconn won by 20 points, this is a 2 point game down the stretch...and duke leads at some points....as a uconn fan, that's scary to think about...


anyway, how was duke able to do it? (and please, this was NOT a 22 point game...it was much closer....to pretend that 22 points tells the whole story you're not doing credit to how well duke played)

running: unlike previous years, uconn couldn't run duke off the floor...it used to be that uconn wouldn't beat them down on offense and get easy fast breaks, and then beat them down on defense preventing the defense from creating fast break.....not anymore...duke was every bit as quick up and down the floor, preventing a couple moriah jefferson breaks (two consecutive if i recall) and forcing some of their own...that was HUGE in preventing this from being the blowout that has been of years past

recovering: duke didn't wait to get beat down by the big run and then play dead for the rest of the game, as i talked about, they fought their butts off with the expectation that they would come back, and they were on the verge of it....they brought the game back from 23 to 13 points...thats NUTS and it put uconn in a position they weren't ready for....they had to really slow down the offense to ensure that duke didn't get closer...taking uconn's offense off their game and forcing them into a different tempo is not something most teams have been able to do, and duke did it for nearly 20 minutes in the middle of the game...forcing them into bad passes, bad shots, and lacksidasical effort on D. props for that

being patient on offense: uconn makes a killing off forcing opposing offenses to do silly things...duke didn't do silly things...they remained patient and tried to get their shot....result? 61 points...10 more than duke has ever scored against uconn in the coach P era


so now on the flipside: what cost duke this game

Kalena mosqueda-lewis: 7-11 3pt......and they weren't contested....they were wide open. there were times when the entire defense was on the opposite side of the court when she got the skip pass...you can't leave a 50% 3pt shooter open....duke did, and KML drained them...time after time

free throws: uconn made 11-13, duke made 3-5, i'm sure people will complain about the refs (i thought the game was largely well officiated, though at least one blown out of bounds call, and the fouls were largely even), but duke needs to figure out how to even this out....dolson and stewart both can get in foul trouble, but duke needs to get those fouls on shots instead of on the floor so they can get to the line and get some freebies....they get to the line, if i recall, more than anyone in the country....they need to do that against uconn...not that it's an easy task, but you can't spot uconn 8 points at the line and expect to beat them

shot selection: for certain, credit uconn for forcing duke into some bad shots during their run, but duke needs to be patient, get it inside, draw those fouls instead of closely guarded threes.....result? 24-4 run

adjusting to the slow down: when uconn close the gap to 13 with 8 minutes to go, they effectively scared uconn to slowing the clock down....the result? uconn expanded the lead effectively until the buzzer....duke gave up 18 points in those slow 8 mintues, a few fouls late in the shot clock, a few wide open threes....maybe they were tired, who knows, but if your'e huge comeback is going to scare uconn slowing down, you gotta figure out how to keep closing the gap at the new tempo, or continue to force the tempo....and in the end, it was this late push that made the outcome as lopsided as it was


jury is still out? breanna stewart: she went to town at times, and looked lost at times....she had 24 and is really really special, but duke was able to exploit her inexperience (sophomore) and force her into some REALLY bad plays, unless they go UL against griner and triple team her, I think they did about as good as they could have, and thus their time is better focused on fixing the other things?

as a preemptive response to any complaints of geno leaving starters in: it was a very nervous 13 point game with 8 minutes to go....as a uconn fan in the game, i was worried....uconn doesn't relinquish big leads....and tonight, duke was a shot away from closing a 23 point lead to single digits....credit duke for scaring uconn....all the credit in the world....and it wasn't until 5 minutes to go when uconn pushed the lead back up to 20 was the lead safe....and even at that point, uconn wasn't on the gas, they had, as I said, slowed the tempo down, very similar to how duke men '09-'10 did....i think once the rope snapped and it hit 25, uconn probably could have tried to push it to 30, but they didn't.....



slow down that uconn run when it comes, and this is a game. coming off exams, and only a month+ into the season....this is a matchup that should be excellent if it happens again in march.....and you're nuts if you slough this off as "just another uconn duke blowout"

Dukehky
12-17-2013, 11:24 PM
You're right for the vast majority of what you say, I was just really disappointed in the coaching more than the playing. The players can hang with this team if the Coach helps them out a little bit. Tonight Coach P just made some errors that I thought were crucial and kind of obvious. That is where I'm really down on this game. Of course she can learn from watching film just like the players can. Al Brown, show Joanne what's up!!!

Kedsy
12-17-2013, 11:25 PM
I hope we get to play them again this season.

uh_no
12-17-2013, 11:41 PM
You're right for the vast majority of what you say, I was just really disappointed in the coaching more than the playing. The players can hang with this team if the Coach helps them out a little bit. Tonight Coach P just made some errors that I thought were crucial and kind of obvious. That is where I'm really down on this game. Of course she can learn from watching film just like the players can. Al Brown, show Joanne what's up!!!

I was debating taking the coach P angle, especially when i received messages from duke fans such as:


we have just as much talent at every position on the floor except one

the coach...

but I didn't because i'm not sure i agree. were there things that she could have done differently? sure....but so could tara vanderveer...whose stanford team lost by 19 this year, or PSU's coach, whose team also lost by 19....but I think she has done admirably to mold this team.

as i indicated, the improvement on offense has been marked...increasing their output by 20% over any previous game P has had against uconn at duke.....and they didn't look lost, as they have for entire games before....and they made uconn look downright silly at times on defense....that's coaching

could she have done more to stem the tide when uconn went on their first half run? probably (did she even call a timeout???)...but it's hindsight, they were able to close the gap by 8 before halftime, and another few in the second half, and keep it there until uconn finally pulled away....you don't pull back that deficit without some good coaching somewhere.

That all said, I can't fault coach P for not outcoaching geno in the long term in the same way I can't fault Haley for not shutting down Breanna Stewart tonight...it's not a fair thing to ask of either of them.

what she HAS done, though is show the ability to adjust over the years...she seems very aware of what her team needed to do better tonight, but didn't....I hope she comes away with a few things she wants the team to work on so if the matchup should be repeated in march, the team feels it has a better chance to come away with the W, and I think she does....is she going to instill the flowing offense geno runs? no. just like haley isn't going to grow arms 7" longer, but she is going to give her team a good chance to win, and hope her players can execute.

she's been here for 6 years, she is still learning.

g-money
12-18-2013, 01:21 AM
UConn....sigh....

Is Geno going to be able to keep this up in the long term, with UConn buried down in the AAC? I hope not. The outcome is so predictable that it's hard to stay engaged.

BigWayne
12-18-2013, 02:04 AM
It is just too hard to watch with Doris Burke talking non stop. Does she get paid by the word?

Being on the west coast, I watch everything on the DVR. About 5 minutes of Doris and I just skipped to the middle of the second half. I never thought there could be an announcer that would make me wish Dickie V was doing the game, but I was wrong.

dukelifer
12-18-2013, 05:25 AM
Did not watch the game- but this was a tough one to have after a layoff. You just never know what you will get. The men said it was like pre- season. No question Duke gets intimidated by UConn. Still Coach P has fashioned a program that is a consistent winner. So to judge her by the performance against one team is unfair. I am sure she is disappointed but you use it for motivation. UConn is a force. The real question is will the best talent go to such a weak league where they will not be tested every night. Time will tell. Geno may go. Right now they are the best but a lot can happen from now until March. Not playing in tight games all year can hurt a teams mental toughness. There are still a few teams that tend to play UConn tough. Duke is definitely in th hunt.

SheltonBob
12-18-2013, 06:42 AM
That's what makes it hard to watch?

Right - Doris Burke is the reason why the best shooter in the country was left wide open to make SEVEN 3 point shots - her most ever. Cara Lawson, Rebecca Lobo (yes a UCONN grad), and Doris Burke were pleading - begging - imploring Duke to COMPETE, and Duke did not. Simple as that!! Why Duke is 0-7 in its last 7 games against UCONN and lost by an average of 28 points a game, is beyond me. Its up to the coaches and players to figure it out - but until Duke does, the WBB team will not be an elite team, something we all want!! Better to be done in December, than in March. Good luck ladies to figuring it out!!

miramar
12-18-2013, 08:31 AM
Lets be honest, for 22 minutes of the game, duke beat uconn, and for the 17 minutes surrounding the half, duke almost made them look silly...outscoring them 37-27 over that stretch, forcing bad shots and silly turnovers.....and even in the other segments of the game, duke didn't look beat, they looked like they were competing, and it showed when they turned the game on its head....they fought back, something that they haven't done.....it would be silly to think they can't do that the whole game in march...and without that 10 minute stretch in the first half that uconn won by 20 points, this is a 2 point game down the stretch...and duke leads at some points....as a uconn fan, that's scary to think about...

While the glass half full would say that Duke had a ten point advantage over 22 minutes, the glass half empty would say that they were down by 32 points the rest of the game.

The problem with UConn is that they always seem to have that ten minute stretch where they win by 20, which is why UConn fans don't have anything that's scary to think about.

killerleft
12-18-2013, 10:17 AM
I guess we have to blame this game on someone. It was obvious that our players did not show the mental toughness they needed to make a serious game of it. The effort was there. I expect the coaches had a good plan. When you're playing a team with the weapons UCONN has, you will give up something you don't want to give up. If the opponent can't respond well, you've got a great chance to win if the players execute. If the opponent doesn't oblige, you still have a good chance if your team shows poise. And hits a few shots. And doesn't treat the ball like its going to blow up in hand if they don't get rid of it.

Nerves of steel were required.

Poise? Sometimes we had it, but UCONN was able to undermine it when needed.

It was a learning experience. Just like the Duke men against UNLV in '90 and '91, the ladies can find what it takes to beat UCONN. The answer is, foremost, between the ears of the players, not Coach P or the coaching staff. Like Coach K told his players when Maryland threatened to run us out of the Final Four, "Just play!". Like we've seen them play.

That's my take, anyway. Please disregard if you believe UCONN is that much better than the #2 team in the land. Please disregard if you believe the coaches are to blame. I'm sure everybody had a hand in the loss. Glad this is early season, glad we can spend the rest of the year getting better. It wasn't a throwaway game, but an important one, especially if our players and coaches learn and respond accordingly.

tieguy
12-18-2013, 10:40 AM
Please disregard if you believe the coaches are to blame.

In the past six seasons, through a great number of different players, but exactly one head coach, we're 1-12 against teams that go on to be #1 seeds. In only 5 of those games did we keep it to less than 15 points. In essentially all of those games, we've had long stretches where the offense has devolved into standing around, going one-on-one, having horrible shots; last night's game was no different, with the totally expected/predictable 26-4 run where our offense fell totally flat.

You can blame that on "nerves" and "lack of poise" or whatever unquantifiable mystical thing you want. Or you can observe that the coach called this game an "opportunity to grow" when we've had the same awful, predictable, ineffective offensive schemes for seven years now, to the point where during the 2011 elite eight ESPN's announcers openly said "the thing with Duke is that you know there will be a long stretch during the game that they don't score any baskets".

So you can go ahead and blame this on the players if you want, because given three years (for the seniors) they haven't "learned" to have NERVES OF STEEL. Or you can blame it on the coach, who given seven years, is the only person in women's basketball who still seems surprised when her offensive schemes completely fall apart against top-tier opponents and has made no changes to resolve the problem. I know which I think is more reasonable.

~tieguy

GGLC
12-18-2013, 10:55 AM
In the past six seasons, through a great number of different players, but exactly one head coach, we're 1-12 against teams that go on to be #1 seeds. In only 5 of those games did we keep it to less than 15 points. In essentially all of those games, we've had long stretches where the offense has devolved into standing around, going one-on-one, having horrible shots; last night's game was no different, with the totally expected/predictable 26-4 run where our offense fell totally flat.

You can blame that on "nerves" and "lack of poise" or whatever unquantifiable mystical thing you want. Or you can observe that the coach called this game an "opportunity to grow" when we've had the same awful, predictable, ineffective offensive schemes for seven years now, to the point where during the 2011 elite eight ESPN's announcers openly said "the thing with Duke is that you know there will be a long stretch during the game that they don't score any baskets".

So you can go ahead and blame this on the players if you want, because given three years (for the seniors) they haven't "learned" to have NERVES OF STEEL. Or you can blame it on the coach, who given seven years, is the only person in women's basketball who still seems surprised when her offensive schemes completely fall apart against top-tier opponents and has made no changes to resolve the problem. I know which I think is more reasonable.

~tieguy

Yup.

Guess we must be pretty unlucky to keep getting players who lack mental toughness.

Pretttty unlucky.

killerleft
12-18-2013, 11:06 AM
In the past six seasons, through a great number of different players, but exactly one head coach, we're 1-12 against teams that go on to be #1 seeds. In only 5 of those games did we keep it to less than 15 points. In essentially all of those games, we've had long stretches where the offense has devolved into standing around, going one-on-one, having horrible shots; last night's game was no different, with the totally expected/predictable 26-4 run where our offense fell totally flat.

You can blame that on "nerves" and "lack of poise" or whatever unquantifiable mystical thing you want. Or you can observe that the coach called this game an "opportunity to grow" when we've had the same awful, predictable, ineffective offensive schemes for seven years now, to the point where during the 2011 elite eight ESPN's announcers openly said "the thing with Duke is that you know there will be a long stretch during the game that they don't score any baskets".

So you can go ahead and blame this on the players if you want, because given three years (for the seniors) they haven't "learned" to have NERVES OF STEEL. Or you can blame it on the coach, who given seven years, is the only person in women's basketball who still seems surprised when her offensive schemes completely fall apart against top-tier opponents and has made no changes to resolve the problem. I know which I think is more reasonable.

~tieguy

Oh, I quantified that mystical thing. I saw it with mine own eyes. There was no mistaking it. I did not quantify that Doris Burke knows all, though she does do a great job of beating a thing into your head.

tieguy
12-18-2013, 11:25 AM
Oh, I quantified that mystical thing. I saw it with mine own eyes.

To quote the great scholar Inigo Montoya, "I do not think [quantified] means what you think it means. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)"
~tieguy

CameronBlue
12-18-2013, 11:25 AM
I don't want to contribute to the collective "it's the coach" harangue which I find exceedingly tedious (this is not a shot at tieguy) because the current state of Duke's WBB is very good when judged by all other standards except the UConn "rivalry"...(heh, heh, I crack myself up.) Truly I like Coach P and consider her stewardship of DWBB to be very positive. But neither can I agree with a post or two upthread that intimated this is a well coached team, making progress toward a National Championship. There were just too many possessions that ended up with someone either taking a desperation shot because it was the only option left, or someone taking a shot that was well out of their comfort range. EW being blocked repeatedly down low or taking shots from the elbow/top of the key where she is clearly uncomfortable is not a failure of execution (more on the player) it's a sign of a player not put in a position to play to their strengths (coaching failure). There are many other examples, Liston our best 3-point shooter tossed up an 0-fer impeded by frequent double-teams while UConn's 3 point shooters burned Duke repeatedly.

But as I said the harangue is becoming tiresome which presumably filtered back to the team and to the coach long ago. Their only recourse is to keep slugging away at the Geno pinata until they eviscerate the bastard. Hopefully it happens this year.

tieguy
12-18-2013, 11:56 AM
I agree that the "it's the coach" harangue is tedious; I've been bored of it for several years now. That is why I only bring it up when someone is unfairly blaming the players, and especially when someone is unfairly criticizing their effort/"nerves"/etc. We've only got three options: (1) break the tedium by winning, or at least by losing in less tedious/predictable ways; (2) place blame in tedious places (coaching, player skill, player execution) (3) unfairly place blame on player motivation. I can't force #1 to happen but I can fight against #3.

I disagree that this is about UConn. That's why I posted our record against all #1 seeds. UConn is obviously fresh in our memory, but I'm still burned by the incredibly similar offensive groaner I saw in person at Stanford in '09 (with a completely different roster); I'm sure others have similar stories about Stanford in '12 or ND last year. Those are the top-tier teams of the past half-decade. We're simultaneously achingly close to those teams (consistently top-10/elite eight) and obviously vastly far away from joining them as perpetual top-3/final four teams.

[Note that winning against #1 seeds is always hard. And I really don't want to get into the G/P debate yet again. But by the metric of being competitive against #1 seeds, we were a top-tier team for the six years pre-P, going 5-11 but losing by an average of less than two points and never losing by more than 15.]

~tieguy

killerleft
12-18-2013, 12:00 PM
Yup.

Guess we must be pretty unlucky to keep getting players who lack mental toughness.

Pretttty unlucky.

I saw what I saw. Dribbling into bad situations without even looking up, missing open players to pass to, holding the ball out for somebody to swipe. Hesitating until the moment to act was past, then acting. Maybe the players need to have some little earbuds wired up and a separate coach to whisper in their ears not to do some pretttttty unlucky things.

But the key to misunderstanding what I said is to ignore an important word that I wrote. I used the word 'foremost', as I recall, which doesn't rule out some bad coaching as well. You also have to ignore that I mentioned that we didn't shoot well.

Virtually every sports team I have ever seen has these moments when they lose poise for a bit. Christian Laettner lost it when he stepped on Timberlake. Avoiding them almost always is a prerequisite for accomplishing an upset. Our team did not avoid them - this time. Coach P seemed to be mentally engaged, trying to raise their level of play. I was mentally engaged, saying "No, no, no..." even as they made mistakes, admit it, that we could see coming before they happened.

We made a nice comeback, so the women know they can outplay UCONN when they are mentally engaged. If you want to blame the coaches, fine. Your's and tieguy's examples would seem to make idiots out of virtually every college coach who ever had the audacity to have a very good program but has so far failed to win a national championship.

Saratoga2
12-18-2013, 12:51 PM
UCONN has really talented players who seem to know how to play the game together. Duke also has really talented players, so where does this team seem to struggle?

1. What I saw was uncontested shots on defense, wide open over and over. In addition, backdoor cuts that were uncontested. Otherwise, poor defensive execution.

2. On offense, too many turnovers caused by ill conceived passes right into double teams. Add bad shot selection early in the play and you have lots of turnovers and a low offensive efficiency.

If one swapped coaches, would Duke put up a better battle? Don't know the answer, but it appears that all the Duke talent should end up giving a better account of itself.

killerleft
12-18-2013, 12:58 PM
To quote the great scholar Inigo Montoya, "I do not think [quantified] means what you think it means. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk)"
~tieguy

I thought it was assumed that I saw 17 stupid things not attributible to coaching errors. 17 is my mystical number. Sorry.:D:o

Uh, the Doris Burke part was a joke about a joke.

Mike Corey
12-18-2013, 02:19 PM
Coach Auriemma is 7-0 against Duke since McCallie took over, with an average margin of victory of about 25 points, and the closest game being a 16-point win in 2012.

At some point, we need to expect progress against the standard-bearing Huskies.

AtlDuke72
12-18-2013, 09:04 PM
How is the Bob Harris option? Does the radio feed run behind the TV feed, thus making it easy to pause the TV & synch up? Or does the radio feed typically run ahead of the TV feed, thus no synch possible, unless there's a way to pause radio? Thanks!

I found a way to drown her out in tonight's UNC-Texas game. It should work to mute Vitale too. If you have surround sound, turn the speaker on the TV all the way down and turn up the background sounds. It sounds like being at the game without having to hear the announcers.

throatybeard
12-18-2013, 11:22 PM
Can someone explain to me a rational reason why people hate Doris Burke and Beth Mowins so much?

I'm at a loss.

throatybeard
12-18-2013, 11:36 PM
Coach Auriemma is 7-0 against Duke since McCallie took over, with an average margin of victory of about 25 points, and the closest game being a 16-point win in 2012.

At some point, we need to expect progress against the standard-bearing Huskies.

Well, OK, yeah. On the one hand.

But on the other, give me a name of someone who would have done better than McCallie, frequently winning the conference and mostly going to the Region Final every year.

Look, y'all. I love Gail Goestenkors. Probably in an unhealthy fashion. I miss her. I rended my garments in 2007. I said a lot of stuff about Alleva.

But if she was gonna leave, tell me who was available and probably would have done better then McCallie. Last few times I've asked this question, I've gotten crickets.

AtlDuke72
12-19-2013, 01:27 PM
Can someone explain to me a rational reason why people hate Doris Burke and Beth Mowins so much?

I'm at a loss.

My reason is that she never shuts up. Every play does not require a 30 second over analysis by the color person. She talks about 3 times as much as she should.

Duvall
12-19-2013, 01:38 PM
But if she was gonna leave, tell me who was available and probably would have done better then McCallie. Last few times I've asked this question, I've gotten crickets.

There are names. Not sure it would be helpful to discuss them at this point. But the real question is whether we should be happy Joe Alleva didn't find a way to screw up even worse.

jv001
12-19-2013, 01:45 PM
My reason is that she never shuts up. Every play does not require a 30 second over analysis by the color person. She talks about 3 times as much as she should.

I can put up with Doris much better than Vitale. I have to mute him and listen to Bob Harris on the radio. If the radio feed is ahead of the TV, then I just leave the tv muted and make my own observations. GoDuke!

Mike Corey
12-19-2013, 03:03 PM
But if she was gonna leave, tell me who was available and probably would have done better then McCallie. Last few times I've asked this question, I've gotten crickets.

I don't mean to move us back toward the "shoulda woulda" conversation; I only mean to say that we have to see progress now with the coach we've got. Coach McCallie's done very well in certain areas--recruiting, winning the conference, and winning the games we're supposed to win.

But we haven't been to a Final Four on her watch, and we have been manhandled by UConn. That's got to begin to change for Coach McCallie.

GGLC
12-19-2013, 03:26 PM
Well, OK, yeah. On the one hand.

But on the other, give me a name of someone who would have done better than McCallie, frequently winning the conference and mostly going to the Region Final every year.

Look, y'all. I love Gail Goestenkors. Probably in an unhealthy fashion. I miss her. I rended my garments in 2007. I said a lot of stuff about Alleva.

But if she was gonna leave, tell me who was available and probably would have done better then McCallie. Last few times I've asked this question, I've gotten crickets.

As Duvall said, there are definitely names.

sagegrouse
12-19-2013, 04:59 PM
I can put up with Doris much better than Vitale. I have to mute him and listen to Bob Harris on the radio. If the radio feed is ahead of the TV, then I just leave the tv muted and make my own observations. GoDuke!

As my late father said twenty or so years ago, "Dick Vitale is the reason they invented the mute button."

sage

throatybeard
12-19-2013, 08:52 PM
But we haven't been to a Final Four on her watch, and we have been manhandled by UConn. That's got to begin to change for Coach McCallie.

Or else what?

You can't really fire someone for making the Region Final every year. Can you?

msdukie
12-19-2013, 09:54 PM
Or else what?

You can't really fire someone for making the Region Final every year. Can you?

Not with her buyout.

uh_no
12-19-2013, 10:08 PM
Or else what?

You can't really fire someone for making the Region Final every year. Can you?

they COULD, but who are they going to bring in?

the only viable people I can think of are
Gary Blair from texas A&M and
jeff walz from louisville

they both have final fours and big wins, but have had similar success against uconn to P.

Duvall
12-19-2013, 10:11 PM
they COULD, but who are they going to bring in?

the only viable people I can think of are
Gary Blair from texas A&M and
jeff walz from louisville

they both have final fours and big wins, but have had similar success against uconn to P.

The goal is not beating UConn. The goal is competing for a national championship.

But anyway, TAMU and Louisville have more money than Duke anyway.

uh_no
12-19-2013, 10:21 PM
The goal is not beating UConn. The goal is competing for a national championship.

But anyway, TAMU and Louisville have more money than Duke anyway.

I wasn't suggesting it wasn't....I think the more important factor is the big wins in the tournament....UL has now 2 championship games in 4 years, I think....and A&M I think has but the single championship, but I don't think either has been as consistent in the tournament...and UL even missed the tournament but a few years ago....

is there some coach out there who could get duke over the hump? probably....but in terms of knowns, I don't think we can do much better than what we have

Dukehky
12-19-2013, 10:21 PM
I've said this before. Duke isn't a great women's job. G left because she was tired of being pushed around by the administration who wouldn't pay her, quite frankly, what I thought she deserved. K, for as much as I love him, could not care less about the women's program and sees them more as a hindrance to his program because he has to share facilities with them. Who knows, Kevin White, who was been phenomenal, may see things differently. Duke is not going to be able to bring in a huge name coach. They would have to bring in an up and comer, which is what they did with Coach P. Can she ever get the job done (win a natty), I think she can, but she's probably the best of the reasonable available options anyway.

On the K comment about what he thinks and feels. Of course I don't know what he's actually thinking, but from my time around the women's program, that was certainly what I gathered as well as what the women's program thought.

Dukehky
12-19-2013, 10:24 PM
I wasn't suggesting it wasn't....I think the more important factor is the big wins in the tournament....UL has now 2 championship games in 4 years, I think....and A&M I think has but the single championship, but I don't think either has been as consistent in the tournament...and UL even missed the tournament but a few years ago....

is there some coach out there who could get duke over the hump? probably....but in terms of knowns, I don't think we can do much better than what we have

I can't spork you because I do it on nearly every post you make concerning women's basketball. I feel like I agree with everything you say concerning DWB and sometimes you bring me back down to earth off some of the more games that I get too emotional on. So, thank you for that.

uh_no
12-19-2013, 10:31 PM
I've said this before. Duke isn't a great women's job. G left because she was tired of being pushed around by the administration who wouldn't pay her, quite frankly, what I thought she deserved. K, for as much as I love him, could not care less about the women's program and sees them more as a hindrance to his program because he has to share facilities with them. Who knows, Kevin White, who was been phenomenal, may see things differently. Duke is not going to be able to bring in a huge name coach. They would have to bring in an up and comer, which is what they did with Coach P. Can she ever get the job done (win a natty), I think she can, but she's probably the best of the reasonable available options anyway.

On the K comment about what he thinks and feels. Of course I don't know what he's actually thinking, but from my time around the women's program, that was certainly what I gathered as well as what the women's program thought.

Coach P already had 300+ wins, a final four (runner up) and another sweet 16, national coach of the year, and was head coach of the national U21 team....I'm not sure that still qualifies as an up and comer.

Dukehky
12-19-2013, 10:40 PM
Coach P already had 300+ wins, a final four (runner up) and another sweet 16, national coach of the year, and was head coach of the national U21 team....I'm not sure that still qualifies as an up and comer.

Not going to argue the semantics of the terminology, but in no way could Duke have been considered a lateral move for her. It was a bump up in class. It seems what people are kind of asking for if they want to get rid of Coach P is a lateral coaching move, a BIG name. My point is that that is not going to happen. If we \,for some reason, decided to go get a new coach, say, next year, it would not be a lateral move, it would be another coach who would see the job as a "promotion" in status.

uh_no
12-19-2013, 11:34 PM
Not going to argue the semantics of the terminology, but in no way could Duke have been considered a lateral move for her. It was a bump up in class. It seems what people are kind of asking for if they want to get rid of Coach P is a lateral coaching move, a BIG name. My point is that that is not going to happen. If we \,for some reason, decided to go get a new coach, say, next year, it would not be a lateral move, it would be another coach who would see the job as a "promotion" in status.

Gotcha. and yeah, I agree....

throatybeard
12-20-2013, 12:50 AM
The goal is not beating UConn. The goal is competing for a national championship.

Except when Ms Griner is Grining, those are pretty much the same thing.

Ggallagher
12-21-2013, 08:58 AM
I can put up with Doris much better than Vitale. I have to mute him and listen to Bob Harris on the radio. If the radio feed is ahead of the TV, then I just leave the tv muted and make my own observations. GoDuke!

I'm also LOTS happier with Doris than Dick. While it wouldn't hurt if she'd take a break and catch a breath every once in a while - she is generally actually talking about the game in progress. Not that I could stomach doing it, but I think it would be interesting to track Dick during an entire game and figure out just what percentage of his air time is actually involved with the game he's attending or has any relevance to the action. I'm guessing it would be a pretty low number.

jv001
12-21-2013, 04:33 PM
I'm also LOTS happier with Doris than Dick. While it wouldn't hurt if she'd take a break and catch a breath every once in a while - she is generally actually talking about the game in progress. Not that I could stomach doing it, but I think it would be interesting to track Dick during an entire game and figure out just what percentage of his air time is actually involved with the game he's attending or has any relevance to the action. I'm guessing it would be a pretty low number.

What you say here is pretty much the same thing I told my wife after our last game. Dickie knows basketball but he just doesn't do a good job of commenting on the game. He's all about the past and his "All what ever teams". Like you say, it would be nice to know the percentage of his air time spent on the game in progress. GoDuke!