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View Full Version : MBB: North Dakota St. 73, Notre Dame 69



matt1
12-11-2013, 08:23 PM
Fairly embarrassing loss for the ACC...

JasonEvans
12-11-2013, 08:56 PM
Fairly embarrassing loss for the ACC...

Ugh. Until they play an actual conference game, can we still consider them part of the Big East or whatever that mess of a conference is called these days?

-Jason

-jk
12-11-2013, 09:01 PM
Exams seem to start next week. Did ND over schedule?

-jk

Duvall
12-11-2013, 09:22 PM
Exams seem to start next week. Did ND over schedule?

-jk

Three games in five days, so probably.

NoDak State went 24-10 last year - this loss isn't as embarrassing as Duke's Vermont win.

Kedsy
12-11-2013, 09:41 PM
Three games in five days, so probably.

NoDak State went 24-10 last year - this loss isn't as embarrassing as Duke's Vermont win.

Well, Vermont went 21-12 last year. Not much of a difference, is it?

uh_no
12-11-2013, 09:53 PM
Three games in five days, so probably.

NoDak State went 24-10 last year - this loss isn't as embarrassing as Duke's Vermont win.


Dec 16 - Dec 20
Final examinations

gotta cram those games in!

Duvall
12-11-2013, 09:56 PM
Well, Vermont went 21-12 last year. Not much of a difference, is it?

Difference between 7-3 and 3-6 ain't exactly small.

WakeDevil
12-11-2013, 09:57 PM
I am not sure I will ever care how ND, Pitt and Syracuse do. It was enough to adjust to BC and VT.

OldPhiKap
12-11-2013, 10:03 PM
I am not sure I will ever care how ND, Pitt and Syracuse do. It was enough to adjust to BC and VT.

Gotta agree. I like Mike Brey to win, but that has nothing to do with ND or the ACC.

vick
12-11-2013, 10:12 PM
Difference between 7-3 and 3-6 ain't exactly small.

Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Duvall here. Notre Dame was only favored by 6.5. We were favored by 26.5 against Vermont. Huge difference (obviously that speaks both to our strength relative to Notre Dame as well, but North Dakota State is far better regarded than Vermont).

matt1
12-11-2013, 10:22 PM
Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Duvall here. Notre Dame was only favored by 6.5. We were favored by 26.5 against Vermont. Huge difference (obviously that speaks both to our strength relative to Notre Dame as well, but North Dakota State is far better regarded than Vermont).

I think that it is more of Duke vs. Notre Dame than anything else. I doubt that an average person will pay attention to the degree of cupcake on a team's schedule.

Kedsy
12-11-2013, 11:06 PM
Difference between 7-3 and 3-6 ain't exactly small.

I'm sorry, I must have skipped right over your mention of this year's record when you said, "NoDak State went 24-10 last year - this loss isn't as embarrassing as Duke's Vermont win." My bad.

CDu
12-12-2013, 06:51 AM
I'm sorry, I must have skipped right over your mention of this year's record when you said, "NoDak State went 24-10 last year - this loss isn't as embarrassing as Duke's Vermont win." My bad.

Come on, Kedsy. Surely you can make the connection here. A 4-pt loss to a team that was decent last year AND decent this year is not as bad as a 1-pt win over a team that was decent last year but awful this year. That is compounded by the difference in expectations for Duke versus those for Notre Dame.

Are you really going to argue simply because Duvall left out the obvious in his statement?

Kedsy
12-12-2013, 10:36 AM
Come on, Kedsy. Surely you can make the connection here. A 4-pt loss to a team that was decent last year AND decent this year is not as bad as a 1-pt win over a team that was decent last year but awful this year. That is compounded by the difference in expectations for Duke versus those for Notre Dame.

Are you really going to argue simply because Duvall left out the obvious in his statement?

Have you looked at ND State's schedule? Three of their seven wins are against non-Division I teams, so they're really 4-4, which is better but frankly isn't so different than 2-6 (Vermont's record against Div I teams), especially considering Vermont's many injuries. ND State's best win before Notre Dame was a 4 point victory over Bryant (#136 in Pomeroy; although admittedly Bryant beat Vermont by 23). So ND State may be better than Vermont, but I don't think this year's record brings them to the level of "decent," certainly not to the point where it's "obvious in his statement."

Faison1
12-12-2013, 10:50 AM
Soooooo.....out of 15 teams in the conference, I'm seeing maybe 5 get in the Tourney this year. Sweet.

I'm no genious with math, but depending on who you talk with, that's almost worse than 4 out of 12.

CDu
12-12-2013, 11:30 AM
Have you looked at ND State's schedule? Three of their seven wins are against non-Division I teams, so they're really 4-4, which is better but frankly isn't so different than 2-6 (Vermont's record against Div I teams), especially considering Vermont's many injuries. ND State's best win before Notre Dame was a 4 point victory over Bryant (#136 in Pomeroy; although admittedly Bryant beat Vermont by 23). So ND State may be better than Vermont, but I don't think this year's record brings them to the level of "decent," certainly not to the point where it's "obvious in his statement."

Firstly, Vermont's injuries are irrelevant in this discussion. We played the Vermont team with those injuries, so the injuries accurately reflect the team we faced (which stinks). We're discussing the quality of the opponent faced, not the potential quality of the teams when healthy.

4-3 (not 4-4) is better than 2-6, especially when you consider the quality of competition. As to your main question, have you looked at who each team played to accomplish those records? NDSU has had a slightly tougher schedule so far. More importantly, they've played more "losable" games than Vermont (i.e., more games against teams above the low-major level). For reference, Ken Pomeroy rates North Dakota State as the #76 team right now. Conversely, Vermont is #156.

It appears that you're nitpicking semantics. A 4-point loss by the #58 team to the #76 team is a better performance a 1-point win by the #19 team over the #156 team. Do you disagree? If so, feel free to explain why. If not, then feel free to explain why you're arguing over semantics rather than discussing the real point.

CDu
12-12-2013, 11:41 AM
Soooooo.....out of 15 teams in the conference, I'm seeing maybe 5 get in the Tourney this year. Sweet.

I'm no genious with math, but depending on who you talk with, that's almost worse than 4 out of 12.

I'd say that Duke, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, UNC, Virginia, and Florida State will make it. From there, I wouldn't be surprised to see at least 1 or 2 more make it, because someone is going to have to win in these in-conference games. Of that group, I could see Wake, Notre Dame, and Georgia Tech being in the discussion based on their starts, as each have wins over BCS schools and have played close against a high-quality opponent as well.

If we get less than 7 teams in the tourney, I'd be fairly surprised. At the back end I'm not sure who it will be. But I'd be shocked if it was only 5 of our 15 schools that make the tourney.

Kedsy
12-12-2013, 12:34 PM
Firstly, Vermont's injuries are irrelevant in this discussion. We played the Vermont team with those injuries, so the injuries accurately reflect the team we faced (which stinks). We're discussing the quality of the opponent faced, not the potential quality of the teams when healthy.

4-3 (not 4-4) is better than 2-6, especially when you consider the quality of competition. As to your main question, have you looked at who each team played to accomplish those records? NDSU has had a slightly tougher schedule so far. More importantly, they've played more "losable" games than Vermont (i.e., more games against teams above the low-major level). For reference, Ken Pomeroy rates North Dakota State as the #76 team right now. Conversely, Vermont is #156.

It appears that you're nitpicking semantics. A 4-point loss by the #58 team to the #76 team is a better performance a 1-point win by the #19 team over the #156 team. Do you disagree? If so, feel free to explain why. If not, then feel free to explain why you're arguing over semantics rather than discussing the real point.

If all these teams maintain their Pomeroy rankings once those rankings are meaningful, then perhaps I'll agree. I'll be surprised if that happens, however.

Also, if Duvall had referenced ND State's Pomeroy rank instead of their previous year's win-loss record in his original statement, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

CDu
12-12-2013, 01:16 PM
If all these teams maintain their Pomeroy rankings once those rankings are meaningful, then perhaps I'll agree. I'll be surprised if that happens, however.

Vermont has lost to Wagner, Bryant (by 23!), St Joe's (by 10 at home), San Francisco (by 11). They have no meaningful wins. Aside from the Duke game, they've looked like an awful basketball team.

Conversely, NDSU's losses are @ Saint Mary's, Southern Miss, and @North Dakota by 18. The first two are games they should be expected to lose. The last is certainly a bad loss. But aside from that game, they've played a lot like a mid-major team.

So Vermont has 3 awful losses, one bad loss, and two expected losses, and one good result. NDSU has one awful loss, no bad losses, two expected losses (one by just one point), and one good win.

Are you really not willing to agree that NDSU is better as of right now than Vermont right now? If so, I think you're either being willfully difficult or sticking your head in the sand. Because based on their resumes, NDSU has pretty clearly outplayed Vermont so far this season.


Also, if Duvall had referenced ND State's Pomeroy rank instead of their previous year's win-loss record in his original statement, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

So you are in fact choosing to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. Otherwise, why nitpick? You were obviously willing to take the time to look up Vermont's record last year and also look at each of their schedules this year (though I think you got the numbers wrong: NDSU is 5-3 against D-1 schools). Seems like you could have just as easily also looked at Pomeroy and seen that Vermont is way behind NDSU, and left the whole thing alone. Because Duvall's point still stands.

NDSU is better than the November/December version of Vermont. Duke is better than Notre Dame. Therefore, a 4-point loss by Notre Dame to NDSU is a less embarrassing performance than a 1-point win over Vermont by Duke.

If all you care about is nitpicking the completeness (or lack thereof) of the argument, well, that just brings us back to my original point that it seems like a silly thing to do.

tommy
12-12-2013, 10:01 PM
I'd say that Duke, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, UNC, Virginia, and Florida State will make it. From there, I wouldn't be surprised to see at least 1 or 2 more make it, because someone is going to have to win in these in-conference games. Of that group, I could see Wake, Notre Dame, and Georgia Tech being in the discussion based on their starts, as each have wins over BCS schools and have played close against a high-quality opponent as well.

If we get less than 7 teams in the tourney, I'd be fairly surprised. At the back end I'm not sure who it will be. But I'd be shocked if it was only 5 of our 15 schools that make the tourney.

I know we're off topic now, but if I was a Virginia fan, I'd already be worried. That loss last weekend to Green Bay was really a bad one. They've already lost to VCU, who is good but probably not as good as they've been in the last few years, and lost in an ugly game to Top-10 (for now) Wisconsin, so that's not bad, and then beaten a bunch of unimpressive teams. They really need to win at Tennessee on Dec. 30 because there's nothing else in their OOC schedule that's going to impress anyone come selection time. Of course, they can make all of that irrelevant by performing well in the ACC, but that's going to be tough. It was one or two bad losses in their pre-conference schedule that doomed UVA last year, as they didn't get a bid. I'm sure the Green Bay loss is causing their fans to see deja vu all over again.

CDu
12-14-2013, 09:15 PM
And after the NDSU loss, Notre Dame comes back and beats Indiana.