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moonpie23
12-10-2013, 09:19 PM
63-57 with 26 seconds left…….

looks like kansas going down again…..

jimrowe0
12-10-2013, 09:21 PM
26 turnovers will do that

FerryFor50
12-10-2013, 09:22 PM
Florida is doing their best Duke impression at the FT line to keep KU in it.

moonpie23
12-10-2013, 09:25 PM
wiggins not happy. they had that "how could this be happening" UK look on their faces…..

kAzE
12-10-2013, 09:45 PM
As good as Jabari, Andrew Wiggins, and the Kentucky freshmen are, it's pretty clear that the preseason rankings were way overblown in terms of their immediate impact. Kentucky is far from being the #1 team, and Kansas is definitely not looking like a top 10 team anymore. It's almost ridiculous how much coverage the star freshmen are getting on all media channels. Arizona is #1, and Aaron Gordon is basically getting all the credit, when it's really the combined effort of their starting 5, 4 of whom are sophomores and juniors. Despite Wiggin's great performance in this Florida game, he really hasn't been close to the dominant type of player some made him out to be. I think Duke is still top 10, although our problems have been more about the inexplicable regression of our sophomores and overall team defense than our freshmen.

I've never been a huge fan of the rankings, but they do bring a lot of attention and sometimes unfair expectations to the top teams, and I hope the talking heads don't annoint us #1 in next year's preseason poll. These freshmen need time to learn how to play college ball.

vick
12-10-2013, 09:49 PM
Florida was favored by 3. Home court advantage is a real thing...

kAzE
12-10-2013, 09:56 PM
Florida is doing their best Duke impression at the FT line to keep KU in it.

We had a tough time earlier in the year at the foul stripe, but come on, we've been pretty money the last few games. Cook going 10-10 down the stretch last game was pretty nice, and Hood has stepped up his free throw game. We're actually shooting a very respectable 74% as a team, and Jefferson is the only guy in the regular rotation who is below 70%. (Although he shooting an abysmal 33%) UK has way more free throw issues than us, although no one in the world is surprised that a Calipari team can't hit free throws.

FerryFor50
12-10-2013, 10:06 PM
We had a tough time earlier in the year at the foul stripe, but come on, we've been pretty money the last few games. Cook going 10-10 down the stretch last game was pretty nice, and Hood has stepped up his free throw game. We're actually shooting a very respectable 74% as a team, and Jefferson is the only guy in the regular rotation who is below 70%. (Although he shooting an abysmal 33%) UK has way more free throw issues than us, although no one in the world is surprised that a Calipari team can't hit free throws.

I was referring to the game Duke lost against KU. Duke shot 57% that game. KU's FT defense is for real!

Newton_14
12-10-2013, 10:46 PM
As good as Jabari, Andrew Wiggins, and the Kentucky freshmen are, it's pretty clear that the preseason rankings were way overblown in terms of their immediate impact. Kentucky is far from being the #1 team, and Kansas is definitely not looking like a top 10 team anymore. It's almost ridiculous how much coverage the star freshmen are getting on all media channels. Arizona is #1, and Aaron Gordon is basically getting all the credit, when it's really the combined effort of their starting 5, 4 of whom are sophomores and juniors. Despite Wiggin's great performance in this Florida game, he really hasn't been close to the dominant type of player some made him out to be. I think Duke is still top 10, although our problems have been more about the inexplicable regression of our sophomores and overall team defense than our freshmen.

I've never been a huge fan of the rankings, but they do bring a lot of attention and sometimes unfair expectations to the top teams, and I hope the talking heads don't annoint us #1 in next year's preseason poll. These freshmen need time to learn how to play college ball.

Good post. I still maintain that Arizona is the best team I have seen play thus far in this very early part of the season, and like you say it isn't Gordon that makes them go. He is just a nice complementary player. Their guards are really good. Kansas will bounce back, and Kentucky will get better but there is no way UK is the best team now or were they at the beginning of the season.

Mich St showed us how good they aint (still can't get over watching Sparty jumpshoot themselves to a 7th straight loss to Ol roy)

Going to be a fun year. Like you, I still think Duke is a Top 10 team that can get much better. We should revisit this thread in say early February to see what the Top 5 an Top 10 looks like at that point. There may be more than a few surprises in the poll at that time.

TexHawk
12-10-2013, 11:32 PM
Despite Wiggin's great performance in this Florida game, he really hasn't been close to the dominant type of player some made him out to be.

Who exactly expected Wiggins to be dominant? And what is your definition of "dominant"?

From the very beginning, the overwhelming expectation by anyone with an opinion was that Wiggins was an A+++ athlete, with the potential to be one of the greats someday, but far from a guy like Kevin Durant or even Michael Beasley, who each took CBB by the throat with their basketball skill. Wiggins would bring value by his ability to score in transition, off the bounce, and by playing defense. Anything more than something like a 16/6/2 line would be cream cheese.

As a KU fan who has watched almost every possession, I could not be more thrilled with the guy. KU doesn't need a Durant or Parker or Randle with the talent around him on the team, it needs a guy who can take over games and defend. Wiggins is getting better on the first, but has been absolutely fantastic on the second. He is a high-level NBA defender right now.

throatybeard
12-10-2013, 11:37 PM
would be cream cheese

I'm going to start using that.

"If I woke up on New Years Day, and the headline in the newspaper said 'Devils beat Johnny Football,' it would be cream cheese."

CBecker
12-11-2013, 12:55 AM
Yeah I agree that Arizona is playing the best basketball I've seen so far. They play very nice team basketball, great ball movement and chemistry.

flyingdutchdevil
12-11-2013, 09:05 AM
63-57 with 26 seconds left…….

looks like kansas going down again…..

Saw the whole game. Patric Young is an absolutely beast. Not the best scorer, but his energy and fire really helped out the team. The stats don't show it, but - my God - any team would be lucky to have him.

Florida dominated Kansas in the first half with their energy and hustle. I could have sworn that Coach K has out there instead of B. Donovan, getting the most out of his players.

Billy Dat
12-11-2013, 09:55 AM
I watched the whole game, too.

First off, Florida's point guard, Scottie Wilbekin, was flat out brilliant. This kid was not on my radar, and maybe he just had one of those great games, but he totally ran the show and was the most important player on the court. Doing some research, it seems that he has been suspended from the team twice and is kind of a knuckle head, but he was balling last night. Dorrian Finney-Smith of VaTech fame also helped by nailing 4 threes, most of them in the first half.

After Kansas jumped to an early lead, Florida threw a zone at them, kind of a hybrid 1-3-1 and some 2-3 and Kansas had absolutely no clue what to do against it. They committed tons of turnovers and Florida ran ahead and pushed the lead to 18 in the first half. Kansas adjusted well to it in the second half and threatened a few times to make it really interesting with 10-11 minutes left but Florida hit a few huge buckets to keep the margin at around 10 until 5 minutes left when Kansas, playing frantically and desperately, created the kind of choatic foul shooting and run-and-gun environments that can sometimes make a lead disappear, but they couldn't quite get there.

As for Wiggins, he did have 26 and 11. Granted, a bunch of that production came in those last few frantic minutes, but the kid is tough. I think the problem is that people expect him to be as offensively aggressive as Parker. That's what is hurting Wiggins, the impression that he doesn't have the instinct to impose his will on games. I agree that when you watch him play, it does seem like he could be more aggressive on offense, but I think he will be. And, let's remember, the kid has 26 and 11!

Let's also remember that now that Mason is that starting PG, Kansas is starting 4 freshmen, as many as Kentucky. If we think Duke needs time to integrate Parker and Hood while trying to figure out leadership in the absence of Mason/Seth/Ryan, these other teams need the same allowances. Let it also be mentioned that the guys who helped slay us...Selden, Ellis and Mason, all had really subpar games against Florida. Kansas has a brutal non-conf schedule coming up...New Mexico, San Diego State and Georgetown. Don't be surprised if they lose again, but certainly don't be surprised if they are in the Final Four, because they have tons of talent and they are going to get a lot better, as we are.

As for Florida, that team is potentially a lot better than I thought because I had no idea Wilbekin had that kind of ceiling. They are a really tough team who is just getting healthy and have only lost to ranked teams. Fear the Gator.

Chicago 1995
12-11-2013, 09:59 AM
As for Florida, that team is potentially a lot better than I thought because I had no idea Wilbekin had that kind of ceiling. They are a really tough team who is just getting healthy and have only lost to ranked teams. Fear the Gator.

UF is also getting Chris Walker eligible sometime in the next week or two, and he's another impact freshman. Fear the Gator is right.

flyingdutchdevil
12-11-2013, 10:02 AM
I watched the whole game, too.

First off, Florida's point guard, Scottie Wilbekin, was flat out brilliant. This kid was not on my radar, and maybe he just had one of those great games, but he totally ran the show and was the most important player on the court. Doing some research, it seems that he has been suspended from the team twice and is kind of a knuckle head, but he was balling last night. Dorrian Finney-Smith of VaTech fame also helped by nailing 4 threes, most of them in the first half.

After Kansas jumped to an early lead, Florida threw a zone at them, kind of a hybrid 1-3-1 and some 2-3 and Kansas had absolutely no clue what to do against it. They committed tons of turnovers and Florida ran ahead and pushed the lead to 18 in the first half. Kansas adjusted well to it in the second half and threatened a few times to make it really interesting with 10-11 minutes left but Florida hit a few huge buckets to keep the margin at around 10 until 5 minutes left when Kansas, playing frantically and desperately, created the kind of choatic foul shooting and run-and-gun environments that can sometimes make a lead disappear, but they couldn't quite get there.

As for Wiggins, he did have 26 and 11. Granted, a bunch of that production came in those last few frantic minutes, but the kid is tough. I think the problem is that people expect him to be as offensively aggressive as Parker. That's what is hurting Wiggins, the impression that he doesn't have the instinct to impose his will on games. I agree that when you watch him play, it does seem like he could be more aggressive on offense, but I think he will be. And, let's remember, the kid has 26 and 11!

Let's also remember that now that Mason is that starting PG, Kansas is starting 4 freshmen, as many as Kentucky. If we think Duke needs time to integrate Parker and Hood while trying to figure out leadership in the absence of Mason/Seth/Ryan, these other teams need the same allowances. Let it also be mentioned that the guys who helped slay us...Selden, Ellis and Mason, all had really subpar games against Florida. Kansas has a brutal non-conf schedule coming up...New Mexico, San Diego State and Georgetown. Don't be surprised if they lose again, but certainly don't be surprised if they are in the Final Four, because they have tons of talent and they are going to get a lot better, as we are.

As for Florida, that team is potentially a lot better than I thought because I had no idea Wilbekin had that kind of ceiling. They are a really tough team who is just getting healthy and have only lost to ranked teams. Fear the Gator.

I think this is very fair. Wiggins had a great game offensively, which is something that he is still improving on greatly. His transition O is amazing (and potentially better than Parker's), but his half-court O is pretty poor. However, I will say that his D is insanely good. As much as he think that Parker's O is ahead of Wiggins (and it is), the exact same can be said for Wiggin's D over Parker's. He is a defensive stalwart and has the athleticism to back it up.

I think that Kentucky, Kansas, and Duke all suffer from the entitlement that comes with highly touted, young recruits (and even older recruits). They don't hustle as much and play to their potential. With losses building up for all three teams, I think this is going to change. They will settle down and play their butts off, regardless of the competition.

At the end of the year, these three teams (and Arizona) will be lightyears ahead of where they are now.

DukieInKansas
12-11-2013, 10:27 AM
I don't know if my niece's tweet was original from her or if she was repeating something the announcers said but it was spot on: "Kansas could open a bakery with all these turnovers."

TexHawk
12-11-2013, 10:31 AM
First off, Florida's point guard, Scottie Wilbekin, was flat out brilliant. This kid was not on my radar, and maybe he just had one of those great games, but he totally ran the show and was the most important player on the court.

Not to take anything away from Wilbekin, but KU's point guards can't defend anyone right now. That was Wilbekin's best game of his career, and it's not a surprise with Mason and Tharpe guarding him. One is too young to defend a veteran player (Mason) and the other couldn't defend my sister (Tharpe).



After Kansas jumped to an early lead, Florida threw a zone at them, kind of a hybrid 1-3-1 and some 2-3 and Kansas had absolutely no clue what to do against it.

Jay Wright figured this out in the Bahamas, and everyone else is following that lead. KU's perimeter shooters (Frankamp, Greene, White) can't play defense, so Self doesn't want them on the court. Which means the team is susceptible to a zone, until Mason/Tharpe can figure out how to penetrate and get easy buckets for the big guys.



As for Wiggins, he did have 26 and 11. Granted, a bunch of that production came in those last few frantic minutes, but the kid is tough. I think the problem is that people expect him to be as offensively aggressive as Parker. That's what is hurting Wiggins, the impression that he doesn't have the instinct to impose his will on games. I agree that when you watch him play, it does seem like he could be more aggressive on offense, but I think he will be. And, let's remember, the kid has 26 and 11!

Outside of those three games in the Bahamas when Wiggins had the flu, he has been the best all-around freshman IMO, and should be in the conversation for best all-around player in the country.



Let's also remember that now that Mason is that starting PG, Kansas is starting 4 freshmen, as many as Kentucky. If we think Duke needs time to integrate Parker and Hood while trying to figure out leadership in the absence of Mason/Seth/Ryan, these other teams need the same allowances. Let it also be mentioned that the guys who helped slay us...Selden, Ellis and Mason, all had really subpar games against Florida.


Mason has already been starting for the last few games. Last night was Embiid's first start, so it was the first time the 4 freshman (+Ellis) all started together. Wiggins has been great, Embiid has incredible talent if he can stay on the floor, Mason has been better than expected (he wasn't ranked in most Top 100s), but the enigma has been Wayne Selden. That guy is supposed to be a lottery pick, but he flat out disappears for entire games.

** Part of me is a teensy bit excited about the possibility of Selden returning for his sophomore year. Even with Wiggins/Embiid in the NBA, Selden-Mason-Frankamp-Greene as sophomores, plus Tharpe-Ellis as upper-classmen, plus #2 Alexander, #6 Oubre coming in (with #3 Turner as a strong possibility). Oh man. That would be a great battle for preseason #1 in 2014.




Kansas has a brutal non-conf schedule coming up...New Mexico, San Diego State and Georgetown. Don't be surprised if they lose again, but certainly don't be surprised if they are in the Final Four, because they have tons of talent and they are going to get a lot better, as we are.

The schedule is intense. It's something the fans all loved when it came out, but now that other teams have game tape, a rough stretch is expected. There will be 34 days between home games for KU, which is absolutely insane for a team that features 6 freshman in its Top 9 players.

Troublemaker
12-11-2013, 10:41 AM
Kansas has a brutal non-conf schedule coming up...New Mexico, San Diego State and Georgetown. Don't be surprised if they lose again, but certainly don't be surprised if they are in the Final Four, because they have tons of talent and they are going to get a lot better, as we are.

It's sort of insane on Self's part. Kansas is going to go through the entire non-conference slate having played only two creampuff teams (LA-Monroe & Towson), which they've already played. It's all tough hoeing the rest of the way for Kansas.

I think you've gotta throw in a few "breather" games where your players can relax a bit and the coaching staff can experiment and work on specific things without fearing a loss. KU's slate is still preferable to an all-creampuff schedule but it's perilously close to the other extreme, which might be slightly detrimental to a team's development as well.

flyingdutchdevil
12-11-2013, 10:47 AM
It's sort of insane on Self's part. Kansas is going to go through the entire non-conference slate having played only two creampuff teams (LA-Monroe & Towson), which they've already played. It's all tough hoeing the rest of the way for Kansas.

I think you've gotta throw in a few "breather" games where your players can relax a bit and the coaching staff can experiment and work on specific things without fearing a loss. KU's slate is still preferable to an all-creampuff schedule but it's perilously close to the other extreme, which might be slightly detrimental to a team's development as well.

While you may be right, it's hard to argue with Bill Self. He has arguably been the most successful coach of the last 10 years. His record is 300-59 (Coach K during that same time span is 294-63, so it's really close), and that comes with 1 NC, 1 additional FF, and 3 additional EE.

I think Bill Self knows exactly what he's doing.

Troublemaker
12-11-2013, 10:49 AM
(with #3 Turner as a strong possibility). Oh man. That would be a great battle for preseason #1 in 2014.


"Strong possibility" as in, you guys are right there with anyone else on Turner's recruitment? Or do Kansas fans/insiders feel confident enough to take KU against the field for his eventual commitment? Just wondering. I like following recruiting.

Troublemaker
12-11-2013, 10:59 AM
I think Bill Self knows exactly what he's doing.

Does this season's Bill Self know what he's doing? Previous seasons' Bill Self scheduled in the non-conference slate:

2013 - 4 creampuffs
2012 - 5 creampuffs
2011 - 7 creampuffs
2010 - 7 creampuffs

(Creampuff = team rated 130 or below in Pomeroy)

I'm a fan of Self but I wonder, if he could re-do this season's slate, if he would've swapped in a couple more easy teams to KU's non-conference schedule.

TexHawk
12-11-2013, 11:08 AM
It's sort of insane on Self's part. Kansas is going to go through the entire non-conference slate having played only two creampuff teams (LA-Monroe & Towson), which they've already played. It's all tough hoeing the rest of the way for Kansas.

I think you've gotta throw in a few "breather" games where your players can relax a bit and the coaching staff can experiment and work on specific things without fearing a loss. KU's slate is still preferable to an all-creampuff schedule but it's perilously close to the other extreme, which might be slightly detrimental to a team's development as well.

Most of these games are put together 2-3 years in advance. Georgetown is actually a lot worse today then they were when the game was scheduled. Same goes for New Mexico (probably not A LOT worse, but certainly not as good). On the flip side, nobody expected Villanova to be a Top 10 team, or Colorado to be as good as they are. (KU beat the Buffs by 40 last year in AFH.)

There is precedence for this at KU with Bill Self. In 2005, with freshman Brandon Rush-Mario Chalmers-Micah Downs-Julian Wright, KU started 3-4. Including losses to Top 5 Arizona and Top 15 Nevada. They lost 2 of their first 3 conference games, and were 10-6 in early January. They closed 15-1, won the Big 12 title and conference tournament. They then lost to Bradley in the 1st round of the NCAA, but we're not going to talk about that.

Wiggins and Embiid are certainly better than anyone on that team, and Ellis-Tharpe-Black are better than any of the veteran players, which featured walkon Christian Moody and a sophomore Sasha Kaun.

flyingdutchdevil
12-11-2013, 11:13 AM
Does this season's Bill Self know what he's doing? Previous seasons' Bill Self scheduled in the non-conference slate:

2013 - 4 creampuffs
2012 - 5 creampuffs
2011 - 7 creampuffs
2010 - 7 creampuffs

(Creampuff = team rated 130 or below in Pomeroy)

I'm a fan of Self but I wonder, if he could re-do this season's slate, if he would've swapped in a couple more easy teams to KU's non-conference schedule.

I'm curious to know whether Self believes that creampuffs are used to give players a rest and possibly some mild tinkering (which they are). This year, with such an inexperienced squad, maybe Self believes that giving them NCAA-team experience game-in and game-out is the best way. Maybe Self thinks that creampuffs don't develop players as quickly as mid-majors and BCS teams.

I can see it going either way, actually. You will undoubtedly learn more playing tougher teams, but you physically (and possibly physiologically) wear down the team quicker as well.

TexHawk
12-11-2013, 11:17 AM
"Strong possibility" as in, you guys are right there with anyone else on Turner's recruitment? Or do Kansas fans/insiders feel confident enough to take KU against the field for his eventual commitment? Just wondering. I like following recruiting.

It's been discussed in the 2014 recruiting thread on here. 247 has KU with a 61% "lead", followed by Okla State at 33%. But that's not the entire picture, as in October it was 100% for KU, but 7 of the last 8 predictions have been for OSU, including two KU insiders. Jerry Meyer tweeted the other day that KU leads with OSU trailing. (This was after Turner had a monster game on ESPN.)

The strangest part is that the most recent info I have heard out of Lawrence is that Bill Self and staff are actually backing off a bit. Maybe they are just waiting for the official visit, but all of the attention has been on Rashad Vaugh and Jaquan Lyle lately.

Troublemaker
12-11-2013, 11:30 AM
Maybe Self thinks that creampuffs don't develop players as quickly as mid-majors and BCS teams.


That certainly is part of the reasoning, I'm sure.

This article has Self in his own words discussing the schedule after last night's loss: http://www.kansascity.com/2013/12/10/4684274/no-13-kansas-trails-no-19-florida.html


“We’re the only (BCS) school in America that doesn’t have any home games for a month,” Self said. “And that’s my fault. And the schedule doesn’t lend itself to getting some confidence by winning some games (where) you don’t have to play great.”

Self still believes in his young team’s talent, but the pieces just aren’t fitting. He knew a rough patch was coming, but he’d hoped KU could avoid some losses as they weathered the storm.

Anyway, I'm sure Kansas will be a very good team by March. But it looks like Self is wondering if he could've gotten his team to gain its confidence sooner had they played a slightly easier schedule.

flyingdutchdevil
12-11-2013, 11:34 AM
That certainly is part of the reasoning, I'm sure.

This article has Self in his own words discussing the schedule after last night's loss: http://www.kansascity.com/2013/12/10/4684274/no-13-kansas-trails-no-19-florida.html


Anyway, I'm sure Kansas will be a very good team by March. But it looks like Self is wondering if he could've gotten his team to gain its confidence sooner had they played a slightly easier schedule.

But that is in hindsight. Imagine if Kansas got through that entire schedule without a loss - they would have the right mentality and the right confidence. I like the approach that Self took, but it certainly must be frustrating for the players, coaches, and fans to get to the end target (tournaments).

Troublemaker
12-11-2013, 11:50 AM
But that is in hindsight. Imagine if Kansas got through that entire schedule without a loss - they would have the right mentality and the right confidence. I like the approach that Self took, but it certainly must be frustrating for the players, coaches, and fans to get to the end target (tournaments).

Well, sure. How else is a coach going to evaluate things if not in hindsight? I'm sure, like you, Kansas liked the approach to the schedule before the games were played; otherwise, they might've scheduled it differently (to the extent that they can control the difficulty of a schedule). But once the games are played and over with, Self is going to evaluate in hindsight to figure out whether he still likes that approach going forward. If Kansas returns to scheduling 4+ creampuffs every season from now on, we'll have our answer.

TexHawk
12-11-2013, 12:36 PM
Well, sure. How else is a coach going to evaluate things if not in hindsight? I'm sure, like you, Kansas liked the approach to the schedule before the games were played; otherwise, they might've scheduled it differently (to the extent that they can control the difficulty of a schedule). But once the games are played and over with, Self is going to evaluate in hindsight to figure out whether he still likes that approach going forward. If Kansas returns to scheduling 4+ creampuffs every season from now on, we'll have our answer.

Warning, long boring post ahead:

KU scheduling is always a bit wonky. Due to some problems in other parts of the AD, the basketball team basically bankrolls the entire athletic department. That is one of the reasons why you won't see KU at the top of those "most valuable basketball programs" lists. The AD doesn't report hoops ticket revenue in their annual reports (which is massive), because it earmarks some of that money to go to other things. Like, that Turner Gill buyout (ugh) that we are still paying for, and the Charlie Weis one (ugh ugh) that is around the corner.

As a result, just about every game on the schedule needs to net out hugely positively for KU. Which in general means home games, and lots of them. Some years that means we can get a national team involved for a national TV broadcast at home (Temple last year, Georgetown this year). Other years that means more cream puffs because the AD can't find anybody.

It's not EVERY game, because everyone realizes that we need to play teams like Duke, Kentucky, MSU, Indiana, UCLA, etc. to build the team up. It also doesn't hurt that those games make money too. :) But those need to be in events like the Champions Classic, Maui, or home-and-homes.

Now, Colorado does not fit that list, but Denver is a MASSIVE hub for KU alumni, so the AD schedules some games there, grabs some donations, goes home. This is also why games in Chicago are good for KU (more alumni), but a game in Charlotte would not be. The other big alumni base is north-to-south Texas, but we play a ton of conference games down there. This is also why KU will play one game in the Sprint Center in KC every year, as KC is the biggest alumni base (obviously). Side note: KU typically plays awful in the Sprint Center, losing to Davidson, UMass, Syracuse in recent years, almost falling to Oregon State last year, and almost dropping the #1/#16 game. Another reason why you might want to bet on New Mexico this weekend.

Example: In the area, everyone's favorite complaint is... Why won't KU play Missouri in KC once a year? Answer? Easy: It wouldn't make any money. The gate would have to be split 50-50, and that's a loss for KU. If Missouri wants to come to AFH, they are more than welcome to. KU won't do a home-and-home with them right now, because they just aren't good enough nationally. KU-Florida on a Tuesday night is a national game (somewhat), KU-Missouri on a Wednesday is a fire-breathing rivalry that nobody really cares about outside of those two states.


Back on topic... I would like to think that Bill Self is an all-knowing master of schedule manipulation, but it's just not that simple. This year's schedule is just a confluence of a lot of weird little events. I sincerely doubt anyone in the hoops program was ever faced with a decision like... "New Mexico might be too good for our young team to face at this point, can we push that back to 2014?"

Billy Dat
12-11-2013, 12:58 PM
Example: In the area, everyone's favorite complaint is... Why won't KU play Missouri in KC once a year? Answer? Easy: It wouldn't make any money.

Great overall post, and it highlights why K (and others) have been so smart at bankrolling the basketball program by creating those huge neutral site games with marquee opponents and corporate sponsors rather than playing the true road games that every writer pines for. As a pure fan, would I love a Duke/Kansas home-and-home at CIS and AFH - of course, it would be epic! As a savvy fan who realizes how much K has assured the future success of the program by endowing all the scholarships and god knows what else, would I be satisfied with a Duke/Kansas series played at MSG and the United Center? Yes, but I guess that's what the Champions Classic is, to some degree. As K always says, Duke has to work it even harder because our alumni base is smaller (although they do, in general, make some big loot!). It always bugs me when writers play that "for the love of the game" card and ignore the financial realities that these big time hoops programs operate under, subsidizing entire sports departments and such.

roywhite
12-11-2013, 01:05 PM
Great overall post, and it highlights why K (and others) have been so smart at bankrolling the basketball program by creating those huge neutral site games with marquee opponents and corporate sponsors rather than playing the true road games that every writer pines for. As a pure fan, would I love a Duke/Kansas home-and-home at CIS and AFH - of course, it would be epic! As a savvy fan who realizes how much K has assured the future success of the program by endowing all the scholarships and god knows what else, would I be satisfied with a Duke/Kansas series played at MSG and the United Center? Yes, but I guess that's what the Champions Classic is, to some degree. As K always says, Duke has to work it even harder because our alumni base is smaller (although they do, in general, make some big loot!). It always bugs me when writers play that "for the love of the game" card and ignore the financial realities that these big time hoops programs operate under, subsidizing entire sports departments and such.


Interesting, and hadn't really thought about the business rationale for those neutral site games.

Now, does that generate a revenue stream that goes directly to Duke, or is it part of an overall ACC media bank that gets divided among all member schools?

Billy Dat
12-11-2013, 01:17 PM
Interesting, and hadn't really thought about the business rationale for those neutral site games.

Now, does that generate a revenue stream that goes directly to Duke, or is it part of an overall ACC media bank that gets divided among all member schools?

I think K would argue that there are multiple benefits:
-Money
-Playing in large, NCAA tournament style arenas
-Allowing alumni around the country, especially the NYC metro area, to see games in person
-Expanding the brand via "event" type games
-Assuring recruits they'll be playing in NBA arenas like MSG, United Center, etc.

But, I don't think they have to share one penny with the ACC for non-conference games. The big arena allows them to sell more tickets and make more $. That's why Boeheim is loathe to play any road game he doesn't have to, every time he plays in the Carrier Dome, the program makes so much $$$, just like TexHawk was saying about Kansas and AFH. We fail to consider how much $ Duke leaves on the table with CIS being so small and the students attending for free - not that I'd ever suggest changing it - but that's why K has had to be so shrewd about developing alternate revenue streams.

Troublemaker
12-11-2013, 01:33 PM
TexHawk and BillyDat - great posts on the financial imperatives of scheduling.

KU and Duke really do seem very similar in that regard. Whenever my non-Duke friends ask me, "Why do you guys play every year in MSG or the Meadowlands?", my reply is simply, "To make money to fund the program, and likely, other sports as well."

TexHawk, I really appreciate your takes on KU basketball and bball in general. I think it's really cool when reasonable opposing fans like yourself stick around and contribute to this neighborhood pub of ours.

El_Diablo
12-11-2013, 02:11 PM
Who exactly expected Wiggins to be dominant? And what is your definition of "dominant"?

1. Anyone using the name "Canadian Jordan" and/or "Maple Jordan," as well as the voters for the preseason All-America team. 2. "Top five players in all of college basketball."

Do you disagree that comparing a person to one of the most dominant players in the history of the game implies that they expect him to dominate in some manner? Or that if people predict he will be one of the top five players in all of college basketball, that they expect him to be a dominant-type player this season (such as other first-teamers Doug McDermott and Marcus Smart)?

You can quibble semantics, but the bottom line point is that Wiggins has been extremely overhyped by some people. It's not his fault (especially with the low-key way he has handled himself to date), but lots of people seemed to have had unrealistic expectations of him. Your expectations were probably a little more in line with where they "should" be, and he has definitely played well so far, but to argue that no one expected him to be a dominant-type player in college is a bit of a stretch IMO.

flyingdutchdevil
12-11-2013, 03:23 PM
I think K would argue that there are multiple benefits:
-Money
-Playing in large, NCAA tournament style arenas
-Allowing alumni around the country, especially the NYC metro area, to see games in person
-Expanding the brand via "event" type games
-Assuring recruits they'll be playing in NBA arenas like MSG, United Center, etc.

But, I don't think they have to share one penny with the ACC for non-conference games. The big arena allows them to sell more tickets and make more $. That's why Boeheim is loathe to play any road game he doesn't have to, every time he plays in the Carrier Dome, the program makes so much $$$, just like TexHawk was saying about Kansas and AFH. We fail to consider how much $ Duke leaves on the table with CIS being so small and the students attending for free - not that I'd ever suggest changing it - but that's why K has had to be so shrewd about developing alternate revenue streams.

Wow. This is way too informative and rational for a Wednesday afternoon. Thanks, Billy Dat. Post-of-the-month for me.

Thanks again.

TexHawk
12-11-2013, 03:32 PM
1. Anyone using the name "Canadian Jordan" and/or "Maple Jordan," as well as the voters for the preseason All-America team. 2. "Top five players in all of college basketball."

Do you disagree that comparing a person to one of the most dominant players in the history of the game implies that they expect him to dominate in some manner? Or that if people predict he will be one of the top five players in all of college basketball, that they expect him to be a dominant-type player this season (such as other first-teamers Doug McDermott and Marcus Smart)?

You can quibble semantics, but the bottom line point is that Wiggins has been extremely overhyped by some people. It's not his fault (especially with the low-key way he has handled himself to date), but lots of people seemed to have had unrealistic expectations of him. Your expectations were probably a little more in line with where they "should" be, and he has definitely played well so far, but to argue that no one expected him to be a dominant-type player in college is a bit of a stretch IMO.

That's why I asked for someone to define "dominant". To me, "dominant" was Michael Beasley and Kevin Durant. Beasley averaged 26 ppg, and almost 13 rebounds. That's insane, he scored 39 points in AFH on the national champions and #1 defense in the country. Guys who are once in a decade type of "mature college talents". Whether they turn into the next Jordan is not really relevant. Wiggins is not at that level, and I would love to find a link to anyone who predicted he would average 26 ppg like Durant did.

The "Maple Jordan" nonsense was never meant as "he will be Michael Jordan for KU". It was that he has the talent and athleticism to get there someday. Michael Jordan wasn't Michael Jordan as a freshman.


When I watch Wiggins, I am seeing a "dominant" defensive player. Like, Anthony Davis level, without the blocked shot numbers. "Gamechanger". His offense is coming around with his confidence, but he certainly won't be as smooth on that end as someone like Jabari Parker this year. (The last I looked, his +/-, while flawed as a metric, is off the charts.)

I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be considered for the All American team, so I don't think those preseason voters were terribly off in their judgement.

Billy Dat
12-11-2013, 03:38 PM
Wow. This is way too informative and rational for a Wednesday afternoon. Thanks, Billy Dat. Post-of-the-month for me.
Thanks again.

You're welcome, but I credit TexHawk for getting the subject started and articulated so well, especially vis-a-vis KU's specific issues, which are different than Duke's but similar in basis. I am always quick to jump on this topic because I hate when criticism doesn't factor in the reality of the environment - like kids who should stay in school rather than collect NBA millions. It happens all the time in pro sports when fans make crazy trade suggestions that would never work under the salary cap and get mad when you point this stuff out.

It's like Thornton Mellon trying to reason with Professor Phillip Barbay. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM)

El_Diablo
12-11-2013, 05:21 PM
I would love to find a link to anyone who predicted he would average 26 ppg like Durant did.

That's an arbitrary and rather specific hurdle you have selected. But is this close enough?

Wiggins is "dealing with ridiculously high expectations that have some wondering whether Wiggins can have a season comparable to the one Kevin Durant had in his first and only year at Texas" and "is CBSSports.com's Preseason National Player of the Year."

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/23858731/andrew-wiggins-cbssportscoms-preseason-player-of-the-year

How about this?

"Kevin Durant averaged 25.8 points and 11.1 rebounds per game during his freshman year and I expect Wiggins to come close to those numbers. I’d feel more comfortable predicting something closer to 23 points and 10 rebounds a game . . . ."

"Something tells me Wiggins will win athlete of the year and that will propel him to the best season of college basketball that we have witnessed since Durant was lighting it up in the Big 12."

http://www.rantsports.com/prep-sports/2013/05/25/andrew-wiggins-will-average-double-double-next-season-for-kansas-jayhawks/


"But he also tried to dismiss some of the buzz that has come from the early comparisons to NBA stars LeBron James and Kevin Durant."

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/89358/impressions-big-12-media-day