PDA

View Full Version : Alex Murphy to Florida



Pages : [1] 2

vick
12-05-2013, 03:24 PM
Story here (https://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/12/05/source-alex-murphy-transfer-duke):


Alex Murphy has made the decision to transfer from Duke, a source familiar with the matter confirmed to The Chronicle.

Murphy, a redshirt sophomore, will transfer at the end of the semester. The Blue Devils do not play again until Dec. 16 against Gardner-Webb after the conclusion of the Fall semester. Finals begin Tuesday Dec. 10 and finish Sunday Dec. 15, after which an announcement would be likely.

slower
12-05-2013, 03:25 PM
Story here (https://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/12/05/source-alex-murphy-transfer-duke):

Not too surprising. Kid wants to play.

conmanlhughes
12-05-2013, 03:25 PM
not really surprised by that. wish him the best of luck though! I never thought he was really comfortable at Duke. it however does open up another scholarship for next season, which would allow Myles turner to come to Duke without definitely having to lose parker or hood (even though them declaring is most likely to happen)

GGLC
12-05-2013, 03:29 PM
Sorry to see him go.

1999ballboy
12-05-2013, 03:30 PM
I am normally quite against people bending the transfer rule, but it is a bummer that he has come to this decision after already sitting a year out. I hope he can appeal for another year of eligibility starting after his 5-year period ends. If not, he will only have 1.5 years of eligibility wherever he goes.

OldPhiKap
12-05-2013, 03:34 PM
Hope the story is not true, but best of luck to a good kid if he does indeed go.

mr. synellinden
12-05-2013, 03:35 PM
I just went back and read the Alex Murphy to Duke thread and found this post:


Jabari Parker

Another reason Murphy's coming a year early may be a good thing for Duke is that it may be easier to convince a guy like Jabari Parker (class of '13), who will play the same position as Murphy, that there will be room for him, particularly if it looks as though Murphy will be a 2-or-3-and-done player.

I just thought it was interesting.

ChillinDuke
12-05-2013, 03:39 PM
I just went back and read the Alex Murphy to Duke thread and found this post:


Jabari Parker

Another reason Murphy's coming a year early may be a good thing for Duke is that it may be easier to convince a guy like Jabari Parker (class of '13), who will play the same position as Murphy, that there will be room for him, particularly if it looks as though Murphy will be a 2-or-3-and-done player.

I just thought it was interesting.

Interesting in what way? If you mean interesting in how it further evidences the unreasonable expectations that many place on our incoming players, then yes I completely agree.

- Chillin

Indoor66
12-05-2013, 03:39 PM
I just went back and read the Alex Murphy to Duke thread and found this post:


Jabari Parker

Another reason Murphy's coming a year early may be a good thing for Duke is that it may be easier to convince a guy like Jabari Parker (class of '13), who will play the same position as Murphy, that there will be room for him, particularly if it looks as though Murphy will be a 2-or-3-and-done player.

I just thought it was interesting.

What do you find interesting about this?

aro24
12-05-2013, 03:44 PM
I'm not surprised and I don't blame him. And I have a feeling he will not be the last one to transfer out of the guys that are on this years roster.

vick
12-05-2013, 03:46 PM
Interesting in what way? If you mean interesting in how it further evidences the unreasonable expectations that many place on our incoming players, then yes I completely agree.

- Chillin

Not to speak for anyone else, but I've found it interesting to go back to threads when we lose a recruit or have someone transfer to see what people thought then versus how things actually turned our three or four years later. The Taylor King thread is particularly...well, let's just say it didn't turn out that losing him meant that UCLA was now the premier program in the country.

On topic, I like Alex, but as a basketball move, I'm not sure I can really fault him based on who we have now and who is coming in.

Merlindevildog91
12-05-2013, 03:50 PM
I am sorry to see this.

When he was a freshman, I met him at a tailgate, and his eyes lit up when he talked about how excited he was to get to play in Cameron. He even raised his arm and showed us that the hair on his arms was standing up, just talking about it.

It's sad when a dream doesn't work out the way we hope. All the best to him.

bob blue devil
12-05-2013, 03:56 PM
I just went back and read the Alex Murphy to Duke thread and found this post:


Jabari Parker

Another reason Murphy's coming a year early may be a good thing for Duke is that it may be easier to convince a guy like Jabari Parker (class of '13), who will play the same position as Murphy, that there will be room for him, particularly if it looks as though Murphy will be a 2-or-3-and-done player.

I just thought it was interesting.

This is interesting - I'm not sure why it merits the 3rd degree. It demonstrates how misguided fan expectations can be - to the level of being absurd with hindsight.

It's sad things haven't worked out better for Alex at Duke and I wish him the best. I have no reason to believe he was anything but a selfless teammate and good representative of the school. I would not be surprised to see him flourish in an environment where he has greater security in his PT. Hopefully, his time at Duke has been productive for him despite his lack of game time.

azzefkram
12-05-2013, 03:59 PM
Can't say I'm surprised if this is true. Seemed like a really good kid. I hope things work out for him.

Bluedog
12-05-2013, 03:59 PM
It's just unfortunate that Alex already used a redshirt year and then is transferring on top it, so only will get to play 3 years of basketball in college. Unfortunate, but I can understand it - I think he could definitely contribute to a program with the right fit. But, hey, in 2009-10 we had a midyear transfer and that season turned out pretty well! Those are actually the only two mid-year transfers I can remember us having...have there been others? We were in a similar spot that year too, sitting at #7 mid-season, and still looking to truly find our identity.

vick
12-05-2013, 04:02 PM
It's just unfortunate that Alex already used a redshirt year and then is transferring on top it, so only will get to play 3 years of basketball in college. Unfortunate, but I can understand it - I think he could definitely contribute to a program with the right fit. But, hey, in 2009-10 we had a midyear transfer and that season turned out pretty well! Those are actually the only two mid-year transfers I can remember us having...have there been others? We were in a similar spot that year too, sitting at #7 mid-season, and still looking to truly find our identity.

Michael Thompson was a mid-year transfer in 2004 I believe. Obviously he wasn't going to play much, although who's to say whether his five fouls might have made the difference against UConn that year.

duke09hms
12-05-2013, 04:06 PM
This doesn't really make sense and might end up hurting Duke moving forward (my main concern). If Parker and Hood go pro after this year, there should be plenty of playing time at the forward position. His main competition would be Jones/Sheed/incoming Justise. Those three other guys are SGs and will spend some time at the 2.

The only way this could be harmless for Duke is if Rasheed and Matt are thoroughly outplaying him and Justise is definitively better coming in (always hard to know for sure). I hope that's the case, but it seems like we could use his height at the 3 to counteract our likely small lineup of Tyus and Quinn starting.

CDu
12-05-2013, 04:09 PM
Definitely unfortunate if true. But if playing time was what he was looking for, then a transfer probably makes the most sense. With Jefferson establishing himself as the likely PF next year, with Ojeleye competing for the same role, and with Winslow a top-10 recruit on the way, it doesn't look like playing time will be readily available until his senior year.

For all those who chastise folks for discussing the possibility of a player transferring, this is just the nature of the beast. At Duke, if you aren't a top-25 recruit, there's a real chance you won't find playing time. It does sometimes happen (see Thornton, Melchionni). But when the recruiting picks up steam (as it has done over the past couple of years), there are going to be some guys left in the wake.

I'd love it if upper-tier guys were okay with coming to Duke and staying 4 years in a reserve capacity. But that life is not for everyone. I certainly can't begrudge Murphy for wanting to get to play.

wsb3
12-05-2013, 04:11 PM
I can't tell you why this one bothers me so much but it does. Maybe because I always heard how happy he was at Duke.

Maybe it was the summer after his redshirt year hearing how he could be a 4 year starter. One thing I have learned. Pay very little attention to summer talk.

Best wishes Alex and I don't care that this opens up another scholarship. I hate to see you go.

Mike Corey
12-05-2013, 04:12 PM
Alex is, by all accounts, a terrific young student-athlete. Here's to hoping he lands on his feet and gets everything out of basketball he has long hoped for.

Lauderdevil
12-05-2013, 04:12 PM
Unfortunately, there's only one basketball and 200 minutes to go around. Alex Murphy would get his fair share of those minutes at most schools, and I can hardly begrudge him wanting that. I hope he becomes a star wherever he goes. He's been class as far as I've ever seen.

tommy
12-05-2013, 04:14 PM
This doesn't really make sense and might end up hurting Duke moving forward (my main concern). If Parker and Hood go pro after this year, there should be plenty of playing time at the forward position. His main competition would be Jones/Sheed/incoming Justise. Those three other guys are SGs and will spend some time at the 2.

The only way this could be harmless for Duke is if Rasheed and Matt are thoroughly outplaying him and Justise is definitively better coming in (always hard to know for sure). I hope that's the case, but it seems like we could use his height at the 3 to counteract our likely small lineup of Tyus and Quinn starting.

Don't forget Semi, who at 6'6" is best suited to play the 3.

mattman91
12-05-2013, 04:15 PM
This doesn't really make sense and might end up hurting Duke moving forward (my main concern). If Parker and Hood go pro after this year, there should be plenty of playing time at the forward position. His main competition would be Jones/Sheed/incoming Justise. Those three other guys are SGs and will spend some time at the 2.

The only way this could be harmless for Duke is if Rasheed and Matt are thoroughly outplaying him and Justise is definitively better coming in (always hard to know for sure). I hope that's the case, but it seems like we could use his height at the 3 to counteract our likely small lineup of Tyus and Quinn starting.

Forgetting someone? Ojeleye?!

flyingdutchdevil
12-05-2013, 04:16 PM
Definitely unfortunate if true. But if playing time was what he was looking for, then a transfer probably makes the most sense. With Jefferson establishing himself as the likely PF next year, with Ojeleye competing for the same role, and with Winslow a top-10 recruit on the way, it doesn't look like playing time will be readily available until his senior year.

For all those who chastise folks for discussing the possibility of a player transferring, this is just the nature of the beast. At Duke, if you aren't a top-25 recruit, there's a real chance you won't find playing time. It does sometimes happen (see Thornton, Melchionni). But when the recruiting picks up steam (as it has done over the past couple of years), there are going to be some guys left in the wake.

I'd love it if upper-tier guys were okay with coming to Duke and staying 4 years in a reserve capacity. But that life is not for everyone. I certainly can't begrudge Murphy for wanting to get to play.

Really sad to see Robocop go, if the reports are true. He looked like he was on the verge of getting it and could have contributed significantly in his last two years.

Also, everything you said above is true, especially the bolded part. In today's game, transfers are a dime a dozen. Still sucks to see it happen, but it happens so often these days.

CDu
12-05-2013, 04:17 PM
This doesn't really make sense and might end up hurting Duke moving forward (my main concern). If Parker and Hood go pro after this year, there should be plenty of playing time at the forward position. His main competition would be Jones/Sheed/incoming Justise. Those three other guys are SGs and will spend some time at the 2.

Murphy has, presumably, two positions at the college level: SF and PF. Our PF options next year are Jefferson (likely starter), Murphy, and Ojeleye. Our SF options are Jones, Sulaimon, Winslow, Ojeleye, and Murphy. Even if Jones and Sulaimon played zero minutes at SF (which won't happen), that still leaves a pretty crowded picture at SF and PF. He isn't likely to start over Winslow or Jefferson, and if Ojeleye has beaten him out for PT then he isn't likely to see the floor next year. I certainly wouldn't say that there is "plenty" of time at the SF and PF spots next year, because the minutes that Hood and Parker had are most likely to be gobbled up by Jefferson and Winslow.


The only way this could be harmless for Duke is if Rasheed and Matt are thoroughly outplaying him and Justise is definitively better coming in (always hard to know for sure). I hope that's the case, but it seems like we could use his height at the 3 to counteract our likely small lineup of Tyus and Quinn starting.

Winslow is a more highly-touted recruit than Murphy was, for whatever that's worth. And it can be "harmless" for Duke if any two of Winslow, Jones, Ojeleye, or Sulaimon is a better option at the SF spot and if Jefferson and Ojeleye are better options at the PF spot.

I'm not concerned about a small lineup of Cook and Jones at guard. Teams don't exploit small guards. They exploit small bigs or slow guards. If you have 2-3 reasonably-sized frontcourt guys, you don't have to worry about small guards.

Kedsy
12-05-2013, 04:17 PM
This doesn't really make sense and might end up hurting Duke moving forward (my main concern). If Parker and Hood go pro after this year, there should be plenty of playing time at the forward position. His main competition would be Jones/Sheed/incoming Justise. Those three other guys are SGs and will spend some time at the 2.

The only way this could be harmless for Duke is if Rasheed and Matt are thoroughly outplaying him and Justise is definitively better coming in (always hard to know for sure). I hope that's the case, but it seems like we could use his height at the 3 to counteract our likely small lineup of Tyus and Quinn starting.

I disagree. While it's true we don't know for sure that Justise would be ahead of Alex in the rotation, the likelihood is he would be. There probably wouldn't be many wing minutes available for Alex next year with Quinn, Tyus, Rasheed, Matt, and Justise ahead of him. He'd be competing with Grayson and Semi for wing table scraps. It's possible he could have gotten some minutes at PF, but again he'd be competing with Amile, Marshall, and Semi for two rotation spots alongside Jahlil.

I'm always sad when someone leaves the program -- and I'm sad now for Alex -- but from a basketball standpoint the biggest implication is we'll only have 10 recruited scholarship players.

Dukehky
12-05-2013, 04:18 PM
It seems like we lose a lot of kids to transfers. Silent G, Elliott, Olek, Boateng, now Murph. In all likelihood, outside of Elliot, our transfers wouldn't have been likely to help the team much. However, all of those players ended up being solid contributors to other teams. I can't help but wonder if they wouldn't be contributors for Duke if K lengthened his bench a little bit. I've always been a bit skeptical of K's rotations exclusing the 2010 season bc we didn't have anyone else to play that year, and we end up losing players because of it. K knows what he's doing though, I just hate to lose kids that dedicated themselves to Duke basketball and it doesn't pay off.

I always liked Murph and had high hopes for the whole Singler 2.0 comparison. I hope he goes on to have a great college career and makes it to the league, he's got more natural talent than Erik, just not quite the skill set yet.

This is probably a reach, but maybe Jabari said he was coming back, making the potential playing time shrink dramatically. Gotta look for the silver lining I guess...

duke09hms
12-05-2013, 04:19 PM
Forgetting someone? Ojeleye?!

Haha oops my bad. Semi is a beast. Not to bash, but if this is true, I hope Alex is getting dominated in practice by Semi, Sheed, Jones, and got owned by Justise on his visit.

Kedsy
12-05-2013, 04:22 PM
It seems like we lose a lot of kids to transfers.

I don't have the article at my fingertips, but there was an article posted, I think earlier in this calendar year but it might have been last year, that showed that in recent years Duke has the lowest transfer rate in the ACC. It seems like we lose a lot of transfers, but apparently other programs have been losing more.


This is probably a reach, but maybe Jabari said he was coming back, making the potential playing time shrink dramatically. Gotta look for the silver lining I guess...

Yes, that is a reach.

mr. synellinden
12-05-2013, 04:23 PM
What do you find interesting about this?

Well, I find a few things interesting. First, that (probably with good reason) people were thinking so highly of Murphy that the idea of him moving up a year (from class of 2012 to 2011) would be considered a good thing so he could get out of the way for Jabari Parker (meaning he would play in college only two years). Murphy was rated in the top 15 in the 2012 class (about the same as Winslow) and then when he reclassified to 2011, he was rated #41 by ESPN (http://espn.go.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2011/order/true). As a side note, I think it's interesting that he was ranked 1 spot ahead of Otto Porter and 8 spots ahead of Ben McLemore. It really shows what a crapshoot recruiting is and why it is a mistake to have expectations based on rankings. We now know that there was no way Murphy (or anyone else really) would be an impediment to Parker coming to Duke and starting from day 1.


I also find it interesting that Parker was that much on the radar screen two and a half years ago. It would be like saying now, one good thing about Justise Winslow being a likely two year player is that he'll be gone by the time Harry Giles would get here.

freedevil
12-05-2013, 04:23 PM
Bummer. Best of luck to him.

johnb
12-05-2013, 04:25 PM
It seems like we lose a lot of kids to transfers. Silent G, Elliott, Olek, Boateng, now Murph.......

I doubt we have more transfers than other programs; actually, I think it's relatively few.

I had wondered if Alex would stick around; from a basketball perspective, it makes sense. He is an excellent player who watched as we recruited a string of freakishly good players at both of his positions. No way he's beating out Parker/Hood, and it's unlikely he's beating out Winslow/Ojeleye/Jones/Sulaimon and whatever other top ten recruits we get in 2015.

By all accounts, he's a good guy who's probably making a reasonable decision. I'll wish him well--maybe he can come back on his new team and really show his stuff.

socaldukie
12-05-2013, 04:25 PM
Laura Keeley confirmed via twitter that he is transferring at the end of the semester. Best of luck Murph!

flyingdutchdevil
12-05-2013, 04:27 PM
Yes, that is a reach.

I don't think it's a reach at all. Yes - all indications point to Jabari leaving, but crazier things have happened: Smart turning down a top 3 pick to return, McBob turning down a top 5 pick to return, Portland having the best record in the West...

Troublemaker
12-05-2013, 04:29 PM
This doesn't really make sense

It makes a lot of sense from his perspective. I would not consider Murphy a favorite for playing time over any of Cook, MJones, Sulaimon, TJones, and Winslow for a perimeter spot, and I would not consider him a favorite for playing time over any of Okafor, Jefferson, Plumlee, and Ojeleye for an interior spot. In most of those cases, he'd be a huge underdog, of course.

Now maybe he could've carved out a 10 min/gm role for himself next year at Duke, but I'm not sure the Murphys are really interested even in that kind of a role for Alex at this point in his career. They and he probably want him to start for the final 1.5 seasons of his career (although I do hope he can get some sort of waiver to bump that to 2.5 seasons). From that standpoint, I would be a little bit surprised if Florida ends up being the destination as well.

In any case, best of luck to Alex wherever he ends up. I hope he gets to start, play confidently and play well.

flyingdutchdevil
12-05-2013, 04:32 PM
We obviously can't talk about transfers, but a lot of us think about them.

Is anyone really surprised that Murphy transferred, given how he seemed to be in a similar spot as many of our other transfers: Olek, Boykins, Thompson

Goduke2010
12-05-2013, 04:40 PM
It seems like we lose a lot of kids to transfers. Silent G, Elliott, Olek, Boateng, now Murph. In all likelihood, outside of Elliot, our transfers wouldn't have been likely to help the team much. However, all of those players ended up being solid contributors to other teams. I can't help but wonder if they wouldn't be contributors for Duke if K lengthened his bench a little bit. I've always been a bit skeptical of K's rotations exclusing the 2010 season bc we didn't have anyone else to play that year, and we end up losing players because of it. K knows what he's doing though, I just hate to lose kids that dedicated themselves to Duke basketball and it doesn't pay off.

Guys ranked outside the top 20 or so (Murphy was #36, Plumlee #62) are going to find their playing time taken by higher ranked recruits like Winslow. Not too long ago I saw an article about NBA draft position based on the player's final high school rank. There was a dropoff after high school rank of 3, another drop at rank 10, and a final drop around rank 20.

I think you're right about Coach K's "short-bench" syndrome. Guys like Murphy never get playing time, which makes it damn hard to stay motivated, much less improve.

Troublemaker
12-05-2013, 04:41 PM
I'm always sad when someone leaves the program -- and I'm sad now for Alex -- but from a basketball standpoint the biggest implication is we'll only have 10 recruited scholarship players.

Agreed totally. Very possible we'll look for a 5th year senior wing for practice purposes. It's always nice to be able to field two teams in practice with 5 scholarship players each. So, for example, if Grayson Allen sprains an ankle, the 5th year senior can fill in.

Des Esseintes
12-05-2013, 04:45 PM
This doesn't really make sense and might end up hurting Duke moving forward (my main concern). If Parker and Hood go pro after this year, there should be plenty of playing time at the forward position. His main competition would be Jones/Sheed/incoming Justise. Those three other guys are SGs and will spend some time at the 2.

The only way this could be harmless for Duke is if Rasheed and Matt are thoroughly outplaying him and Justise is definitively better coming in (always hard to know for sure). I hope that's the case, but it seems like we could use his height at the 3 to counteract our likely small lineup of Tyus and Quinn starting.

I wish Alex the very best, and I'm sorry to see him leave Duke. He made real sacrifices to attend here. At the same time, as CDu notes, transfers happen. They happen at Duke for reasons that are usually on balance positive for the program, which is to say the player in question is not getting playing time and likely won't get much more going forward because better talent is on hand and in the pipeline. That's almost certainly the case with Murphy.

As far as Duke being hurt, there was a tremendous amount of handwringing about Michael Gbinije's transfer after the 2012 season. Silent G is now at Syracuse, and while being a useful contributor (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/56115/michael-gbinije) is hardly annihilating the competition. If still at Duke, there's little chance he would be playing more than his current 15 min/game, and the better chance is that he would be playing less. So Duke has not missed him, has used that scholarship for other players, and G himself is in a better situation. While transfers are unfortunate in some ways, they can be a great thing for a player without damaging his old school much at all.

Des Esseintes
12-05-2013, 04:53 PM
I think you're right about Coach K's "short-bench" syndrome. Guys like Murphy never get playing time, which makes it damn hard to stay motivated, much less improve.

Except that very few of these guys develop into major contributors at their later destinations. Or if they do, it's because like Czyz they drop down from high-major-level to Nevada. (Elliott Williams made the NBA, but he did not leave Duke for lack of playing time.) How is K's short bench hurting them at their new schools, pray tell?

freshmanjs
12-05-2013, 04:54 PM
I wish Alex the very best, and I'm sorry to see him leave Duke. He made real sacrifices to attend here. At the same time, as CDu notes, transfers happen. They happen at Duke for reasons that are usually on balance positive for the program, which is to say the player in question is not getting playing time and likely won't get much more going forward because better talent is on hand and in the pipeline. That's almost certainly the case with Murphy.

As far as Duke being hurt, there was a tremendous amount of handwringing about Michael Gbinije's transfer after the 2012 season. Silent G is now at Syracuse, and while being a useful contributor (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/56115/michael-gbinije) is hardly annihilating the competition. If still at Duke, there's little chance he would be playing more than his current 15 min/game, and the better chance is that he would be playing less. So Duke has not missed him, has used that scholarship for other players, and G himself is in a better situation. While transfers are unfortunate in some ways, they can be a great thing for a player without damaging his old school much at all.

Agree with this. Players who are in a position to be major contributors on the court at Duke are very unlikely to transfer away from Duke. The only cases I can remember are EWil (who had family reasons play at least some role) and Billy McCaffrey. All the rest seem like great guys and solid players, but would not have been able to accomplish what they wanted to at Duke (Murphy, Olek, King, Gbinije). I can't really say that any of those guys transferring worked out to be the wrong move for the player or a significant blow to Duke. We have also had 2 terrific inbound transfers recently.

Dukehky
12-05-2013, 05:06 PM
I don't have the article at my fingertips, but there was an article posted, I think earlier in this calendar year but it might have been last year, that showed that in recent years Duke has the lowest transfer rate in the ACC. It seems like we lose a lot of transfers, but apparently other programs have been losing more.



Yes, that is a reach.

Key word, seems. Only seems like that because I focus on Duke more than other ACC schools. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Duvall
12-05-2013, 05:13 PM
Guys ranked outside the top 20 or so (Murphy was #36, Plumlee #62) are going to find their playing time taken by higher ranked recruits like Winslow. Not too long ago I saw an article about NBA draft position based on the player's final high school rank. There was a dropoff after high school rank of 3, another drop at rank 10, and a final drop around rank 20.

NBA draft position and freshman year playing time are two very different things.

Kedsy
12-05-2013, 05:13 PM
I don't think it's a reach at all. Yes - all indications point to Jabari leaving, but crazier things have happened: Smart turning down a top 3 pick to return, McBob turning down a top 5 pick to return, Portland having the best record in the West...

Just because something isn't the craziest thing that's ever happened doesn't mean it's not a reach.

I'll concede it's not outside the realm of possibility that Jabari returns (however unlikely it may be), but attempting to link Alex's departure to possible good news from Jabari by saying, "maybe Jabari said he was coming back, making the potential playing time shrink dramatically," as the OP did, is in my opinion quite a reach.

You're certainly welcome to disagree.

FerryFor50
12-05-2013, 05:22 PM
We obviously can't talk about transfers, but a lot of us think about them.

Is anyone really surprised that Murphy transferred, given how he seemed to be in a similar spot as many of our other transfers: Olek, Boykins, Thompson

What makes this a tad more surprising than the other transfers was how vocal Murph was about staying at Duke.

However, he didn't get a ton of chances to show what he could do in games and likely didn't show all that much in practices, either.

I think he'll find success at his next school, but I don't think he'll end up much better than Olek did.

conmanlhughes
12-05-2013, 05:35 PM
If all is same in his head, I'm guessing Florida is the lucky winner of his services. (but who knows?)

http://jeffgoodman.yardbarker.com/blog/jeffgoodman/article/alex_murphy_opts_for_duke/4115398

heyman25
12-05-2013, 05:38 PM
Not too surprising. Kid wants to play.
He will get PT at a school that has a need for a 6'9 230 pound forward. His brother is in the NBA. Good luck Alex . Sorry it did not work out at Duke.

superdave
12-05-2013, 05:41 PM
Two questions:

How likely is it that he can avoid losing a year of eligibility? Is there precedent?

Can he drop down to Division II and play sooner? Is that what Ryan Harrow did?

Honestly, this is sad. I was hoping for a lot from Alex. He seems like a gym rat, good guy and talented player on the verge of good stuff. I wish we got to see more of him.

I hope everything comes up roses for him.

sagegrouse
12-05-2013, 05:44 PM
Just because something isn't the craziest thing that's ever happened doesn't mean it's not a reach.

I'll concede it's not outside the realm of possibility that Jabari returns (however unlikely it may be), but attempting to link Alex's departure to possible good news from Jabari by saying, "maybe Jabari said he was coming back, making the potential playing time shrink dramatically," as the OP did, is in my opinion quite a reach.

You're certainly welcome to disagree.


What makes this a tad more surprising than the other transfers was how vocal Murph was about staying at Duke.

However, he didn't get a ton of chances to show what he could do in games and likely didn't show all that much in practices, either.

I think he'll find success at his next school, but I don't think he'll end up much better than Olek did.

Alex, by all reports, is a good, solid guy. This decision was certainly discussed with the coaches and his NBA/pro basketball family. I am confident that K did not initiate the discussion, but I believe he was truthful about Alex's playing prospects this year and next.

Good luck, Alex, if rumors are true.

sage

-bdbd
12-05-2013, 05:47 PM
Sorry to see this. By all reports he's a good kid, but bad timing in terms of developing slowly and having quality competition at his position. Best of luck to him -- he has the talent to make an impact somewhere.

The article speculates about joining his brother at FLA, but I was thinking that his dad went to BC, and they were one of his finalists, in addition to being near to his home. Would K ever allow that transfer within the ACC? :confused:

superdave
12-05-2013, 05:51 PM
Sorry to see this. By all reports he's a good kid, but bad timing in terms of developing slowly and having quality competition at his position. Best of luck to him -- he has the talent to make an impact somewhere.

The article speculates about joining his brother at FLA, but I was thinking that his dad went to BC, and they were one of his finalists, in addition to being near to his home. Would K ever allow that transfer within the ACC? :confused:

I think the conference disallows internal transfers

Potato Head
12-05-2013, 05:59 PM
He needs to improve a great deal if he's going to play at this level. I could see him starring at a mid-major, but I can't really see him playing significant minutes for a team like Florida. Obviously his confidence should improve with more playing time, but from what we've seen his all around game is pretty limited.

Goduke2010
12-05-2013, 06:29 PM
Except that very few of these guys develop into major contributors at their later destinations. Or if they do, it's because like Czyz they drop down from high-major-level to Nevada. (Elliott Williams made the NBA, but he did not leave Duke for lack of playing time.) How is K's short bench hurting them at their new schools, pray tell?

My point isn't that the guy who transfers is amazing. It's that they never get off the bench to begin with. If they did become major competitors at a highly ranked program like Syracuse, then that would be an indictment of K's short bench from Duke's perspective. To your point, we don't see that by and large from those transfers, so the short bench is an indictment from the transfer's perspective.

Saratoga2
12-05-2013, 06:29 PM
Not much room for him next year, but is he that much worse than Josh this year? How much PT would have been enough to keep him on the team?

freshmanjs
12-05-2013, 06:31 PM
My point isn't that the guy who transfers is amazing. It's that they never get off the bench to begin with. If they did become major competitors at a highly ranked program like Syracuse, then that would be an indictment of K's short bench from Duke's perspective. To your point, we don't see that by and large from those transfers, so the short bench is an indictment from the transfer's perspective.

I don't see how it's an indictment at all. It's not little league. If you aren't good enough, you don't play.

Goduke2010
12-05-2013, 06:32 PM
NBA draft position and freshman year playing time are two very different things.

Ummm, right. If you don't think those two variables are highly correlated....

freshmanjs
12-05-2013, 06:35 PM
there seems to be an undercurrent on this board when transfers or bench playing time are discussed. the gist of it is a fear that a very good player* is going to slip away from Duke because he gets tired of being buried on Coach K's bench. the fact that this has never happened in the 30+ years that Coach K has been at Duke does not seem to deter this fear for some reason.

* and by this i mean a player with the ability to be a major contributor at Duke on the court

FireOgilvie
12-05-2013, 06:35 PM
Murphy always reminded me of Pocius. Very athletic, solid/good on offense (though not a strong 3 point shooter), yet doesn't fit in with whatever Coach is looking for on defense, so he gets very little playing time. That's not a knock on Coach K. Of course, Pocius is doing very well now. Hopefully, Murphy will do the same elsewhere.

sagegrouse
12-05-2013, 06:39 PM
there seems to be an undercurrent on this board when transfers or bench playing time are discussed. the gist of it is a fear that a very good player* is going to slip away from Duke because he gets tired of being buried on Coach K's bench. the fact that this has never happened in the 30+ years that Coach K has been at Duke does not seem to deter this fear for some reason.

* and by this i mean a player with the ability to be a major contributor at Duke on the court

The best player we lost was Billy MacCaffrey, I believe, after the 1991 championship. He did very well his first year at Vandy, but not as well his second year, when opponents ganged up on him.

sage

vick
12-05-2013, 06:45 PM
The best player we lost was Billy MacCaffrey, I believe, after the 1991 championship. He did very well his first year at Vandy, but not as well his second year, when opponents ganged up on him.

sage

Yeah but McCaffrey wasn't buried on the bench--he was the third-leading player by minutes the year before he left. What freshmanjs was talking about, I believe, is the persistent fear that K loses good players because of a relatively short bench, but, as he alludes to, very few of our transfers who weren't playing here showed the ability to be large contributors on major conference teams, let alone championship contenders.

Goduke2010
12-05-2013, 06:47 PM
I don't see how it's an indictment at all. It's not little league. If you aren't good enough, you don't play.

I understand your point of view, and share it. But I said indictment from the transfer's perspective, not the casual fan's.

wilko
12-05-2013, 06:48 PM
Best of Luck to Alex.

Fish80
12-05-2013, 06:51 PM
I'm sad. Selfishly I suppose. I enjoyed watching, reading, and hoping for Alex.

I wish him the best, wherever he goes.

Flyers52
12-05-2013, 06:53 PM
Best of luck to Murph. I always liked him, and wish he would've gotten his shot (but I respect K & how he runs the team - obviously). Hopefully he can get somewhere where he can get some PT & contribute & best use his athleticism.

It may be a long shot, but what about Northwestern? Who recruited him to Duke - did Collins have a role in his recruitment? That would be a great get for Collins & NU, as well as Murphy who can play within a system very similar to Duke & K's.

dukelifer
12-05-2013, 06:57 PM
Best of luck to Murph. I always liked him, and wish he would've gotten his shot (but I respect K & how he runs the team - obviously). Hopefully he can get somewhere where he can get some PT & contribute & best use his athleticism.

It may be a long shot, but what about Northwestern? Who recruited him to Duke - did Collins have a role in his recruitment? That would be a great get for Collins & NU, as well as Murphy who can play within a system very similar to Duke & K's.

He will land somewhere and do fine. Duke is not the best place for all players as you may end up competing with the very best. No doubt Murphy learned a lot and will be able to take that forward. It hurts a little by not having enough bodies for practice and if there is an injury- he will be missed a lot.

Duvall
12-05-2013, 06:58 PM
The best player we lost was Billy MacCaffrey, I believe, after the 1991 championship. He did very well his first year at Vandy, but not as well his second year, when opponents ganged up on him.

sage

And McCaffrey was far from "buried" at Duke.

FireOgilvie
12-05-2013, 07:01 PM
Best of luck to Murph. I always liked him, and wish he would've gotten his shot (but I respect K & how he runs the team - obviously). Hopefully he can get somewhere where he can get some PT & contribute & best use his athleticism.

It may be a long shot, but what about Northwestern? Who recruited him to Duke - did Collins have a role in his recruitment? That would be a great get for Collins & NU, as well as Murphy who can play within a system very similar to Duke & K's.

That would be awesome. I would love to see him end up there and I think he'd get a lot more playing time at NU than at Florida.

NYBri
12-05-2013, 07:08 PM
Best of luck to Murph. I always liked him, and wish he would've gotten his shot (but I respect K & how he runs the team - obviously). Hopefully he can get somewhere where he can get some PT & contribute & best use his athleticism.

It may be a long shot, but what about Northwestern? Who recruited him to Duke - did Collins have a role in his recruitment? That would be a great get for Collins & NU, as well as Murphy who can play within a system very similar to Duke & K's.

Interesting idea.

Odd. Just last night I was thinking about AM at Duke and wondered if he might transfer.

I wish him the best and sincerely hope he shines wherever he goes.

mr. synellinden
12-05-2013, 07:08 PM
And McCaffrey was far from "buried" at Duke.

Yeah - he transferred because he believed (probably correctly) that his best chance of making the NBA was at point guard and he was never going to play point guard being in the same class as Bobby Hurley. He also had Thomas Hill ahead of him at SG. I think he went on to be first team All-SEC or even SEC player of the year.

tommy
12-05-2013, 07:23 PM
My point isn't that the guy who transfers is amazing. It's that they never get off the bench to begin with. If they did become major competitors at a highly ranked program like Syracuse, then that would be an indictment of K's short bench from Duke's perspective. To your point, we don't see that by and large from those transfers, so the short bench is an indictment from the transfer's perspective.

Why does it have to be an indictment at all? Everybody knows, including recruits who look closely at the coaches and schools recruiting them, that K plays a short bench. They all look at that because they want to know what their chances of playing are right away. For most of them, they believe they're good enough to play right away, or certainly by their sophomore year. So it's not an indictment of K's short bench system. It's that the recruit, here Alex Murphy, probably misjudged his ability to earn playing time on a team that wasn't going to go deeper than 7 or 8 guys. Of course, he couldn't have foreseen a player like Justice Winslow, but again, I don't see where the word "indictment" comes from here.

From what I've heard, this is nothing but an amicable parting, and there are no hurt feelings in either direction. It sounds to me like both "sides" acknowledge that this is for the best for Alex.



Not much room for him next year, but is he that much worse than Josh this year? How much PT would have been enough to keep him on the team?

First of all, Josh Hairston is currently a starter on this team. That in itself is pretty good. And this is not a question of being "worse" than Josh. It's a question of available minutes at his position. It became obvious to Alex that the minutes just weren't going to be there given the makeup of next year's roster and the other talent at his position(s). And I don't think he's wrong in that assessment.

vick
12-05-2013, 07:28 PM
Why does it have to be an indictment at all? Everybody knows, including recruits who look closely at the coaches and schools recruiting them, that K plays a short bench. They all look at that because they want to know what their chances of playing are right away. For most of them, they believe they're good enough to play right away, or certainly by their sophomore year. So it's not an indictment of K's short bench system. It's that the recruit, here Alex Murphy, probably misjudged his ability to earn playing time on a team that wasn't going to go deeper than 7 or 8 guys. Of course, he couldn't have foreseen a player like Justice Winslow, but again, I don't see where the word "indictment" comes from here.

From what I've heard, this is nothing but an amicable parting, and there are no hurt feelings in either direction. It sounds to me like both "sides" acknowledge that this is for the best for Alex.

I agree. Think about it like this: how many ordinary Duke graduates, about 22 years old, are going to stay in their first job and city after school for four years? Hardly any of my friends did that. Yet for some reason, when someone doesn't want to stick with the school decision he made when he was even younger, it's an "indictment" of something. Why isn't it just a fact of life that plans change, just as for everyone who isn't a scholarship athlete?

Fish80
12-05-2013, 07:29 PM
Sage grouse, does this mean we now have 791 possible lineups? (Just a little math joke.) Is it too soon to joke?

-jk
12-05-2013, 07:34 PM
And McCaffrey was far from "buried" at Duke.

True. But he had to be a PG at the next level. Yet he was stuck behind that piker, Hurley. Go figure.

Can't fault him. It's a tough world, and not everyone lands on their feet.

-jk

sagegrouse
12-05-2013, 07:35 PM
Sage grouse, does this mean we now have 791 possible lineups? (Just a little math joke.) Is it too soon to joke?

More like 462, but you get the point. --sage

wallyman
12-05-2013, 07:37 PM
Really rooted for Alex and wish him only the best. He seems like a great kid. Hate to see him go, but I'm sure he made a smart, informed decision and will do well wherever he lands.

weezie
12-05-2013, 08:20 PM
Best of luck to Alex! Hope he does well, wherever that may be.

Bluedog
12-05-2013, 08:53 PM
Guys ranked outside the top 20 or so (Murphy was #36, Plumlee #62) are going to find their playing time taken by higher ranked recruits like Winslow. Not too long ago I saw an article about NBA draft position based on the player's final high school rank. There was a dropoff after high school rank of 3, another drop at rank 10, and a final drop around rank 20.

I think you're right about Coach K's "short-bench" syndrome. Guys like Murphy never get playing time, which makes it damn hard to stay motivated, much less improve.

Murphy was ranked as the #11 prospect (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/02/alex-murphy-no-11-in-class-of-2012-gives-verbal-commitment-to-duke/1#.UqE7D-IsxHI) in the Class of 2012 (according to Rivals) before he re-classified to the Class of 2011 (and thus got ranked lower in his new class). So, would you think the same thing if instead of being a RS Sophomore ranked #36 in HS he was a "standard" sophomore ranked #11 coming out of high school? Certainly, the rank gives a general sense of a recruit's ability to contribute, but there are certainly other factors. TT was ranked around 100...Not saying I disagree with your general premise though.

_Gary
12-05-2013, 09:01 PM
Murphy was ranked as the #11 prospect (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/02/alex-murphy-no-11-in-class-of-2012-gives-verbal-commitment-to-duke/1#.UqE7D-IsxHI) in the Class of 2012 (according to Rivals) before he re-classified to the Class of 2011 (and thus got ranked lower in his new class). So, would you think the same thing if instead of being a RS Sophomore ranked #36 in HS he was a "standard" sophomore ranked #11 coming out of high school? Certainly, the rank gives a general sense of a recruit's ability to contribute, but there are certainly other factors. TT was ranked around 100...Not saying I disagree with your general premise though.

Thanks for that info, Bluedog. I had a vague memory that Murphy was ranked much higher before reclassifying, but I wasn't positive.

Unfortunately I'm not at all surprised by this. Deep down I've had this concern for a while now. I have nothing but good thoughts and wishes for Alex, and am very sad to see him go. I'm sure he'll excel wherever he ends up!

throatybeard
12-05-2013, 09:07 PM
If McCaffrey is the gold standard of a transfer who flourished elsewhere after leaving (even though he got plenty of playing time here), then he's kind of the exception that proves the rule. Who's second? Chappell?

Kedsy
12-05-2013, 09:07 PM
If McCaffrey is the gold standard of a transfer who flourished elsewhere after leaving (even though he got plenty of playing time here), then he's kind of the exception that proves the rule. Who's second? Chappell?

Elliot Williams?

_Gary
12-05-2013, 09:09 PM
If McCaffrey is the gold standard of a transfer who flourished elsewhere after leaving (even though he got plenty of playing time here), then he's kind of the exception that proves the rule. Who's second? Chappell?

Gotta be Chappell. And I agree, it is the exception that proves the rule. Most guys that transfer out don't go on to "superstar" status in the college (or pro) game. Just doesn't happen.

Edouble
12-05-2013, 09:10 PM
Agree with this. Players who are in a position to be major contributors on the court at Duke are very unlikely to transfer away from Duke. The only cases I can remember are EWil (who had family reasons play at least some role) and Billy McCaffrey. All the rest seem like great guys and solid players, but would not have been able to accomplish what they wanted to at Duke (Murphy, Olek, King, Gbinije). I can't really say that any of those guys transferring worked out to be the wrong move for the player or a significant blow to Duke. We have also had 2 terrific inbound transfers recently.

Mike Chappell comes to mind. Rumblings said that he didn't want to compete hard for PT, even though he was still starting some games as late as February of '98.

CDu
12-05-2013, 09:16 PM
If McCaffrey is the gold standard of a transfer who flourished elsewhere after leaving (even though he got plenty of playing time here), then he's kind of the exception that proves the rule. Who's second? Chappell?

Easily Elliot Williams. Considering that he got drafted, one could even make an argument for him over McCaffrey.

gurufrisbee
12-05-2013, 09:19 PM
Sorry to see you go Murph. Best wishes elsewhere (unless you are playing Duke).

Not really crushed - I'd like to see Matt and Semi get more minutes though if there are any.

freshmanjs
12-05-2013, 09:20 PM
Elliot Williams?

ewil and mccaffrey have to be the top 2. i don't think either of them left because of lack of playing time, though.

Gthoma2a
12-05-2013, 09:27 PM
I am really saddened by this. I like Alex. He seems like a very good kid and he looked to have a lot of promise. I hope he finds success and the comfort that he never seemed to have on the floor here. He wasn't a bad shooter, if I remember correctly, in high school, but he couldn't find his stroke here. Makes me think that part of it was anxiety. I really do wish him the best, though. It may not have worked out, but I will still consider him a blue devil in another uniform.

Newton_14
12-05-2013, 09:31 PM
Gotta be Chappell. And I agree, it is the exception that proves the rule. Most guys that transfer out don't go on to "superstar" status in the college (or pro) game. Just doesn't happen.

No way. EWill is a much better player than Chappell ever was. Now, neither Billy M nor EWill left because of being buried on the bench, but that kind of proves the overall point anyway.

So if the question is "Who among those that left due to lack of PT became the best player elsewhere" then neither Billy nor EWill can be in the discussion.


As for Murph... the news saddened me. One of my favorite players, and I always hoped he would put it together and become a starter or regular off the bench. It just did not play out that way, but I do think he can have success elsewhere. Very athletic, can take it to the rack, good hops. His two biggest weaknesses that really factored into his PT was lack of an outside shot, and lack of confidence. I wish him nothing but great success wherever he decides to go. Really great kid. Even on the bench Tuesday against Michigan, he was encouraging teammates, giving instructions to Matt and Amile right after timeouts, etc. High character kid.

_Gary
12-05-2013, 09:31 PM
Easily Elliot Williams. Considering that he got drafted, one could even make an argument for him over McCaffrey.

For some reason I always think of Elliot differently than all the other transfers, so I didn't even consider him when answering the question. But technically, you're correct. He has to be right up there at the top.

throatybeard
12-05-2013, 09:48 PM
Fine, throw them both in. So three guys in thirty-four seasons. Woe is us.

Note also that we won the national championship during Chappell's RS-senior season, and we lost the national championship by a fingernail during McCaffrey's RS-senior season. I think we may have also won the 2010 national championship sometime shortly after EWill decamped.

Goduke2010
12-05-2013, 09:56 PM
Murphy was ranked as the #11 prospect (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/02/alex-murphy-no-11-in-class-of-2012-gives-verbal-commitment-to-duke/1#.UqE7D-IsxHI) in the Class of 2012 (according to Rivals) before he re-classified to the Class of 2011 (and thus got ranked lower in his new class). So, would you think the same thing if instead of being a RS Sophomore ranked #36 in HS he was a "standard" sophomore ranked #11 coming out of high school? Certainly, the rank gives a general sense of a recruit's ability to contribute, but there are certainly other factors. TT was ranked around 100...Not saying I disagree with your general premise though.

My ranks are consensus rankings from 24-7.

It's a good question about Alex, I recall that (seemingly) huge drop in his ranking when he reclassified and wondered what justified that. There are probably several explanations, but I suspect that if he had stayed in his original class, he would have dropped in ranking his senior year. To answer your question, if he had stayed @ #11, yes, I would still think that, on average, there's a good (and provable) relationship between high school ranking, college performance, and NBA potential.

Duvall
12-05-2013, 09:58 PM
Ummm, right. If you don't think those two variables are highly correlated....

Are they, for players in the 10-15 range? Remember, this is freshman year only.

Troublemaker
12-05-2013, 09:59 PM
It's that the recruit, here Alex Murphy, probably misjudged his ability to earn playing time on a team that wasn't going to go deeper than 7 or 8 guys.

I don't disagree, but I think the mentions of Coach K's typical rotation habits actually understates Alex's minutes dilemma. If Coach K went 9-10 deep this season, would Alex have been one of those 10 guys? I think the odds are against it. I think the way things are developing, Semi and Alex are the 11th and 12th men. So unless Coach plays an 11 or 12-man rotation (and one isn't going to find many examples of those around), Alex just wasn't going to play this season. Next season, Coach K would probably have to go with a 9 or 10-man rotation to give Alex playing time. From the Murphys' perspective, even if Coach K went deep into his bench (superdeep in the case of the 11-man rotation), would they have been okay with 5 mpg as the eleventh man this season and 10mpg as the ninth man next season? I really doubt it. I think they want to see him start games by at the latest next season. That just wasn't going to happen here because Duke is loaded this season and next.

The question may arise: did Alex make a mistake returning for this season at all then? Well, with the benefit of hindsight, one could make that argument, sure. But, going into this season, at 6'9" 230 lbs, he had no reason to believe he couldn't get the minutes that Josh and Amile are currently receiving. Maybe Alex wasn't the favorite going in to beat those guys out for a rotation spot, but why not give it his best shot and see what transpires? Especially since, by all accounts, Alex loves being a Duke basketball player. He gave it an honest shot this season and I really respect that. I respect both ends of the Murphys' decision-making . First, for Alex to try his best and go for it this season, and second, now that he was beaten out, to analyze his situation going forward and arrive at the decision to seek his minutes elsewhere. Just sensible stuff all-around, imo. Again, I wish him the best of luck.

tommy
12-05-2013, 10:54 PM
No way. EWill is a much better player than Chappell ever was. Now, neither Billy M nor EWill left because of being buried on the bench, but that kind of proves the overall point anyway.

So if the question is "Who among those that left due to lack of PT became the best player elsewhere" then neither Billy nor EWill can be in the discussion.

If that's the question, the candidates for the answer would probably have to include Jamal Boykin, who developed into a nice player at Cal, averaging almost 12 points and 7 rebounds in 28 minutes per game as a senior for the Bears, before they were knocked out of the NCAA Tournament by . . . Duke. En route to a national championship.

FerryFor50
12-05-2013, 10:55 PM
If that's the question, the candidates for the answer would probably have to include Jamal Boykin, who developed into a nice player at Cal, averaging almost 12 points and 7 rebounds in 28 minutes per game as a senior for the Bears, before they were knocked out of the NCAA Tournament by . . . Duke. En route to a national championship.

I think Olek was on par with Boykin.

tommy
12-05-2013, 10:58 PM
I think Olek was on par with Boykin.

Yes, but Boykin was playing for a high major program and Olek for a mid-major. Different level of competition on a night-by-night basis.

johnb
12-05-2013, 11:51 PM
Assuming he and Collins got along, I like the idea that he considers Northwestern...

Des Esseintes
12-06-2013, 12:00 AM
Yes, but Boykin was playing for a high major program and Olek for a mid-major. Different level of competition on a night-by-night basis.

Agreed. Plus, that year's Cal team played at glacial pace. 12 & 7 may not look more than solid, but they were good enough to earn him 2nd Team All-Conference honors. Had Cal played a more typical number of possessions per game, his numbers would have graded out around 15 & 9. Of all our transfers out, I think Boykin developed his game the most after leaving Duke. Admirable.

Skitzle
12-06-2013, 12:58 AM
Carrik Felix was on an NBA Roster, he never played a game here, but does he count?

Word is still out on Gbjneinijjni

Des Esseintes
12-06-2013, 01:39 AM
Carrik Felix was on an NBA Roster, he never played a game here, but does he count?

Word is still out on Gbjneinijjni

I think he's more in the Tyler Adams/Kris Humphries/Shawn Livingston camp of guys who were in the bag as recruits but for one reason or another never made it to a day of actual practice. Not the same as a transfer. Unlike the transfers, where the reasons for transferring usually boil down to court time, the stories with these guys are all over the map. Adams was playing time, Felix was grades, Humphries was diva-ness, and Livingston was being good enough not to have to screw around with college.

Mike Corey
12-06-2013, 07:37 AM
(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)
(2) Elliot Williams - Averaged 11 ppg with Memphis in one season, and was a 1st round NBA draft pick. He has not made a splash professionally.


The rest:
Mike Chappell - Never averaged more than 6 ppg with the Spartans, playing 14.4 and 13.6 mpg, respectively.
Andre Sweet - Averaged about 9 ppg over three seasons with Seton Hall.
Eric Boateng - Averaged about 8 ppg in his senior year with Arizona State.
Jamal Boykin - Averaged about 10 ppg in his senior year with Cal.
Olek Czyz - Averaged 12 ppg in his year with Nevada.

JasonEvans
12-06-2013, 07:42 AM
Word is still out on Gbjneinijjni

He is a real interesting case. Michael did not step down at all in his transfer. Like Duke, Syracuse is one of the elite programs in the nation. Boykin to Cal was still going to a BCS school, but Cal was clearly a step (or two) down the basketball ladder from Duke. Syracuse is not.

So, at Syracuse, Gbinije is averaging 15 minutes per game this season. He is not a starter or a stat stuffer (4 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 1.5 apg) but he is playing a fairly significant role as the team's 1st or 2nd guy off the bench most games.

I would argue that a pretty good case can be made that the #6 or #7 players at Syracuse would have a chance to playing a significant role at Duke if he were here.

It will be interesting to see if he can turn into an even more significant player for the Orange over the course of time. He has a chance to become the first kid who did not play and transferred that we look back upon and say, "ahhh, K may have messed up on that one."

-Jason "worth noting that EWill did not play much early on at Duke and there was talk that he had already decided to transfer when K began playing him a lot more late in his freshman season" Evans

Ichabod Drain
12-06-2013, 07:51 AM
He is a real interesting case. Michael did not step down at all in his transfer. Like Duke, Syracuse is one of the elite programs in the nation. Boykin to Cal was still going to a BCS school, but Cal was clearly a step (or two) down the basketball ladder from Duke. Syracuse is not.

So, at Syracuse, Gbinije is averaging 15 minutes per game this season. He is not a starter or a stat stuffer (4 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 1.5 apg) but he is playing a fairly significant role as the team's 1st or 2nd guy off the bench most games.

I would argue that a pretty good case can be made that the #6 or #7 players at Syracuse would have a chance to playing a significant role at Duke if he were here.

It will be interesting to see if he can turn into an even more significant player for the Orange over the course of time. He has a chance to become the first kid who did not play and transferred that we look back upon and say, "ahhh, K may have messed up on that one."

-Jason "worth noting that EWill did not play much early on at Duke and there was talk that he had already decided to transfer when K began playing him a lot more late in his freshman season" Evans

I honestly can't remember the timeline of events, but do we go after and land Hood if Gbinije is still on the roster?

HaveFunExpectToWin
12-06-2013, 07:52 AM
(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)
(2) Elliot Williams - Averaged 11 ppg with Memphis in one season, and was a 1st round NBA draft pick. He has not made a splash professionally.


The rest:
Mike Chappell - Never averaged more than 6 ppg with the Spartans, playing 14.4 and 13.6 mpg, respectively.
Andre Sweet - Averaged about 9 ppg over three seasons with Seton Hall.
Eric Boateng - Averaged about 8 ppg in his senior year with Arizona State.
Jamal Boykin - Averaged about 10 ppg in his senior year with Cal.
Olek Czyz - Averaged 12 ppg in his year with Nevada.

Joey Beard was successful at Boston University IIRC, 13 ppg. I think he went on to play in the Italian pro league for awhile.

UrinalCake
12-06-2013, 07:52 AM
" -Jason "worth noting that EWill did not play much early on at Duke and there was talk that he had already decided to transfer when K began playing him a lot more late in his freshman season" Evans

My memory says that after the transfer announcement was made, Coach K came out and said that the health of Elliot's mother was something they had always talked about, even before he came to Duke, and that Elliot was upfront right from the beginning about the possibility of leaving in order to be close to home.

I don't see playing time being a reason at all. K put him in the starting lineup mid-year as a freshman, which is rare, and he would have gotten plenty of playing time the following year as one of only three guards on the roster (Assuming Dawkins didn't come early if Elliot had stayed).

CDu
12-06-2013, 08:04 AM
(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)
(2) Elliot Williams - Averaged 11 ppg with Memphis in one season, and was a 1st round NBA draft pick. He has not made a splash professionally.


The rest:
Mike Chappell - Never averaged more than 6 ppg with the Spartans, playing 14.4 and 13.6 mpg, respectively.
Andre Sweet - Averaged about 9 ppg over three seasons with Seton Hall.
Eric Boateng - Averaged about 8 ppg in his senior year with Arizona State.
Jamal Boykin - Averaged about 10 ppg in his senior year with Cal.
Olek Czyz - Averaged 12 ppg in his year with Nevada.

Slight correction: Williams averaged 17.9 ppg with Memphis. Still, agree with your list.

Channing
12-06-2013, 08:11 AM
Really bummed about this one as Alex was a guy I was really pulling for. It takes a very forward minded kid to skip his senior year of high school to red shirt at Duke (though i think he was a year older than his class anyway). I am very sad for the kid that he is going to lose a year of eligibility.

BD80
12-06-2013, 08:14 AM
Really sad to see Robocop go, if the reports are true. He looked like he was on the verge of getting it and could have contributed significantly in his last two years. ...

He would seem to fill our only real need, a Duke "4" - a stretch post player, with the size to defend down low. It would be Jabari this year, but he is the strongest post defender we have, so he is our 5 by default. I was still hoping for Murph to crack the rotation.

Really good guy, I will root for him wherever he goes.


(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)
(2) Elliot Williams - Averaged 11 ppg with Memphis in one season, and was a 1st round NBA draft pick. He has not made a splash professionally.


The rest:
Mike Chappell - Never averaged more than 6 ppg with the Spartans, playing 14.4 and 13.6 mpg, respectively.
Andre Sweet - Averaged about 9 ppg over three seasons with Seton Hall.
Eric Boateng - Averaged about 8 ppg in his senior year with Arizona State.
Jamal Boykin - Averaged about 10 ppg in his senior year with Cal.
Olek Czyz - Averaged 12 ppg in his year with Nevada.

Elliot and Jamal left at least in part for family considerations.

Let's not forget Crawford Palmer - who had collegiate and pro (outside the US) success after Duke.


... So, at Syracuse, Gbinije is averaging 15 minutes per game this season. He is not a starter or a stat stuffer (4 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 1.5 apg) but he is playing a fairly significant role as the team's 1st or 2nd guy off the bench most games.

I would argue that a pretty good case can be made that the #6 or #7 players at Syracuse would have a chance to playing a significant role at Duke if he were here.

It will be interesting to see if he can turn into an even more significant player for the Orange over the course of time. He has a chance to become the first kid who did not play and transferred that we look back upon and say, "ahhh, K may have messed up on that one."

-Jason "worth noting that EWill did not play much early on at Duke and there was talk that he had already decided to transfer when K began playing him a lot more late in his freshman season" Evans

Syracuse is thin at guard, even with Mike they only have a 3 man rotation. He is the prototypical wing for the 'Cuse - I hope it does work out for him.

miramar
12-06-2013, 08:17 AM
Gotta be Chappell. And I agree, it is the exception that proves the rule. Most guys that transfer out don't go on to "superstar" status in the college (or pro) game. Just doesn't happen.

I think Chappell was a special case. IIRC, he lost playing time to C-Well in part because he lost his shot.

While Chappell won a ring with Michigan State, he only shot 40.5% for his career in East Lansing, so I don't think that he ever recovered his shooting form.

Back on point, the situation with Alex is a real shame. We desperately needed a small forward when he arrived, but he wasn't able to take advantage after his injury. And then we he comes back we have small forwards galore so he can't get any PT.

I wish him all the best. He seems like a good kid and I hope he does really well.

duke79
12-06-2013, 08:19 AM
Too bad about Alex; he seems like a good kid, but I think it probably makes sense from his perspective. You can't blame him, in a way, for wanting more playing time and I'm sure he saw the handwriting on the wall that he was not going to get much time this year or maybe even next year at Duke. It does make you realize the depth and quality of Duke recruits when a top 20 high school player (and there may be some question whether or not Alex should have been ranked that high in HS) can not get much PT at Duke. I realize Coach K does not make any promises to recruits about playing time or starting, but I'm sure Alex and his family thought he would have a big role at Duke when he was being recruited and decided to come to Duke. I also wonder what Alex was thinking this year when Duke played Arizona and Michigan. Two of his high school teammates, Nick Stauskas and Kaleb Tarczewski, were starting and playing significant minutes for those top top Div. 1 teams. It is my understanding that Alex WAS the basketball stud on that high school team. I believe he was recruited very hard by Duke and I'm sure it is difficult for any recruit to turn down Duke, especially if they think they will play a major role on the team. It will be interesting to see where he transfers to. Northwestern would certainly be an interesting choice; I also wonder if Harvard would be in the picture, with Duke grad Tommy Amaker at the helm. If you're going to give up a full scholarship to Duke, Harvard would not be a bad school to transfer to. Although I'm guessing he and his family would want a bigger basketball school at which to play. I'm almost sure Alex could star in the Ivy League. I know nothing about Stanford's needs, but that would be an interesting choice as well.

flyingdutchdevil
12-06-2013, 08:29 AM
Too bad about Alex; he seems like a good kid, but I think it probably makes sense from his perspective. You can't blame him, in a way, for wanting more playing time and I'm sure he saw the handwriting on the wall that he was not going to get much time this year or maybe even next year at Duke. It does make you realize the depth and quality of Duke recruits when a top 20 high school player (and there may be some question whether or not Alex should have been ranked that high in HS) can not get much PT at Duke. I realize Coach K does not make any promises to recruits about playing time or starting, but I'm sure Alex and his family thought he would have a big role at Duke when he was being recruited and decided to come to Duke. I also wonder what Alex was thinking this year when Duke played Arizona and Michigan. Two of his high school teammates, Nick Stauskas and Kaleb Tarczewski, were starting and playing significant minutes for those top top Div. 1 teams. It is my understanding that Alex WAS the basketball stud on that high school team. I believe he was recruited very hard by Duke and I'm sure it is difficult for any recruit to turn down Duke, especially if they think they will play a major role on the team. It will be interesting to see where he transfers to. Northwestern would certainly be an interesting choice; I also wonder if Harvard would be in the picture, with Duke grad Tommy Amaker at the helm. If you're going to give up a full scholarship to Duke, Harvard would not be a bad school to transfer to. Although I'm guessing he and his family would want a bigger basketball school at which to play. I'm almost sure Alex could star in the Ivy League. I know nothing about Stanford's needs, but that would be an interesting choice as well.

Unfortunately, Harvard doesn't give scholarships, they give financial aid.

I spoke with a Princeton and Yale grad who said that, while it's true that none of the basketball players are on scholarship, they are on financial aid. The catch - the student-athletes' families need to come from low-income households. That way, they can be treated as other low-income household Ivy League students and get as much financial aid as needed. In the case of athletes, I assume that is a significant portion or the tuition (read: all of it).

Bluedog
12-06-2013, 08:42 AM
Unfortunately, Harvard doesn't give scholarships, they give financial aid.

I spoke with a Princeton and Yale grad who said that, while it's true that none of the basketball players are on scholarship, they are on financial aid. The catch - the student-athletes' families need to come from low-income households. That way, they can be treated as other low-income household Ivy League students and get as much financial aid as needed. In the case of athletes, I assume that is a significant portion or the tuition (read: all of it).

Note that at least at Harvard (most likely the most generous institution when it comes to financial aid), "low income" is not really a prerequisite for receiving a large financial need based scholarship amount. If your family income is <80k (putting you well above the national median), you basically get a full ride. Up to $180k requires approximately 10% of your annual salary a year be contributed towards tuition. Harvard is on another level when it comes to helping middle-upper class families. Those are typically the ones that get squeezed at other institutions.

Mike Corey
12-06-2013, 08:42 AM
Slight correction: Williams averaged 17.9 ppg with Memphis. Still, agree with your list.

Yeesh. I was off more than a James McAdoo free throw.

nmduke2001
12-06-2013, 08:46 AM
(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)
(2) Elliot Williams - Averaged 11 ppg with Memphis in one season, and was a 1st round NBA draft pick. He has not made a splash professionally.


The rest:
Mike Chappell - Never averaged more than 6 ppg with the Spartans, playing 14.4 and 13.6 mpg, respectively.
Andre Sweet - Averaged about 9 ppg over three seasons with Seton Hall.
Eric Boateng - Averaged about 8 ppg in his senior year with Arizona State.
Jamal Boykin - Averaged about 10 ppg in his senior year with Cal.
Olek Czyz - Averaged 12 ppg in his year with Nevada.

Before his injury, Chris Burgess was off to a decent start to his redshirt senior year:
13 pts, 7 boards and a little more than a block shot a game.

BD80
12-06-2013, 09:09 AM
Yeesh. I was off more than a James McAdoo free throw.

As long as no spectators were injured ...

sagegrouse
12-06-2013, 09:12 AM
Let's not forget Crawford Palmer - who had collegiate and pro (outside the US) success after Duke.



Crawford Palmer is one of the answers to the trivia question, which Dukies got an NCAA championship ring plus a medal in the Olympics?

Lessee... Laettner, Hill, Boozer, and ... Crawford Palmer, who got a silver medal playing for France and was on the 1991 championship team.

Palmer was a brainy guy who finished in three years. His fourth year he enrolled in the Tuck School at Dartmouth and played for the Big Green, earning All-Ivy honors. I ran into him in NH a number of years ago, and he still had warm feelings for Duke.

sage
'Who did I miss?'

DevilWearsPrada
12-06-2013, 09:48 AM
Good Luck and all the best to Alex! I know this young man just wants to get in the game, and play!!! I met him a few times over at the Washington Duke, during the Christmas break, when the Team stays there. After one of the radio shows, Alex and one of the Senior managers came over to my table, and sat with me.
I have seen Alex along with other Mens Basketball team, and Football team, at the Women's Basketball games! So good to see other student athletes attending other games on campus!
All the Best to Alex on the next chapter of his College Career!!!

COYS
12-06-2013, 09:55 AM
(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)
(2) Elliot Williams - Averaged 11 ppg with Memphis in one season, and was a 1st round NBA draft pick. He has not made a splash professionally.


The rest:
Mike Chappell - Never averaged more than 6 ppg with the Spartans, playing 14.4 and 13.6 mpg, respectively.
Andre Sweet - Averaged about 9 ppg over three seasons with Seton Hall.
Eric Boateng - Averaged about 8 ppg in his senior year with Arizona State.
Jamal Boykin - Averaged about 10 ppg in his senior year with Cal.
Olek Czyz - Averaged 12 ppg in his year with Nevada.

Elliot averaged an impressive 17+ ppt at Memphis before going to the pros and suffering a string of terrible injuries that have put his career in doubt. While it is unlikely he would've been a star in the NBA, I think the fact that he hasn't made a splash at all is primarily due to these injuries.

Matches
12-06-2013, 10:14 AM
It will be interesting to see if he can turn into an even more significant player for the Orange over the course of time. He has a chance to become the first kid who did not play and transferred that we look back upon and say, "ahhh, K may have messed up on that one."



I don't think I'll say that, even if G ends up being an all-ACC player at Syracuse. It begs the question of what K should/ could have done differently. Presumably K wanted G to stay - it's not as if he cut him from the team. G transferred because he was unhappy with his PT at Duke, but he got the PT he earned. If he'd stayed, there's every possibility he would be playing more by now.

MChambers
12-06-2013, 10:32 AM
I'm sorry to see him leave and hope he's happy with the next phase of college and basketball. Seems like a great kid from a distance.

SupaDave
12-06-2013, 11:27 AM
(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)
(2) Elliot Williams - Averaged 11 ppg with Memphis in one season, and was a 1st round NBA draft pick. He has not made a splash professionally.


The rest:
Mike Chappell - Never averaged more than 6 ppg with the Spartans, playing 14.4 and 13.6 mpg, respectively.
Andre Sweet - Averaged about 9 ppg over three seasons with Seton Hall.
Eric Boateng - Averaged about 8 ppg in his senior year with Arizona State.
Jamal Boykin - Averaged about 10 ppg in his senior year with Cal.
Olek Czyz - Averaged 12 ppg in his year with Nevada.

Just want to point out that this excludes Taylor King. Yes, yes, I know you all forgot. Time flies don't it?

nmduke2001
12-06-2013, 11:51 AM
Quite frankly, I'm surprised this program doesn't have many more transfers. I imagine most guys in the 20-40 range expect to get playing time and are disappointed if that doesn't happen.

Goduke2010
12-06-2013, 12:14 PM
Quite frankly, I'm surprised this program doesn't have many more transfers. I imagine most guys in the 20-40 range expect to get playing time and are disappointed if that doesn't happen.

Yeah, I would think the 20 - 40 ranked recruits might be less interested in us, as they're probably good enough to get major playing time at another Tier 1 program but might not be good enough to get heavy minutes at Duke right away. I wondered about that when Travis turned us down for Stanford.

Have been thinking more about a 'short bench' and wonder if it is a bigger negative than we imagine. For example, if the marginal impact from the 35th minute from Jabari is better than the marginal impact of the 4th minute from a guy like Alex. If our staff isn't particularly analytical, that might be the type of comparison they're not making. There are many potential negatives from playing a short bench, and potentially very few (if any) positives.

Is there a website that would have that level of detail?

johnb
12-06-2013, 12:33 PM
...Have been thinking more about a 'short bench' and wonder if it is a bigger negative than we imagine. For example, if the marginal impact from the 35th minute from Jabari is better than the marginal impact of the 4th minute from a guy like Alex. If our staff isn't particularly analytical, that might be the type of comparison they're not making. There are many potential negatives from playing a short bench, and potentially very few (if any) positives...

From what I recall, K has addressed this specific issue. From his perspective (and I paraphrase), these are very well conditioned 20 year olds. They play a 40 minute game with lots of tv timeouts. Barring injiry or foul trouble, top players should be able to play full-on for most of the game. A slightly winded star is more effective than a fresh 9th man. The only way to adjust to playing 32 minutes in late March is by playing 32 min's/game in December. This has probably backfired at times--both in regards to intra-game fatigue and season-long exhaustion--but it's hard to argue with the overall success.

A secondary issue is whether his philosophy reduces the our recruitment of the non McDonald's A-A's who are often the senior glue in championship teams (ie, reduces the likelihood that we have a few 6'10" rebounders who we can interchangeably rotate onto the floor when we play top tier teams). Arizona, Michigan State, Kansas, etc seem to have them, and we sometimes don't. In other years, we seem to lack a few interchangeable 6'6" slashers (I say interchangeable since they'd be a top 50 player who fills a niche). And it's a possibility that thse guys don't come to Duke because of the short bench, but our team is essentially filled with top 30-40 talent; I'm not sure we'd want to turn down an elite player who's a good guy for a significantly worse player in hopes that they'd be glue guys--since they'd be glue guys who absolutely never get off the bench.

CDu
12-06-2013, 12:44 PM
Quite frankly, I'm surprised this program doesn't have many more transfers. I imagine most guys in the 20-40 range expect to get playing time and are disappointed if that doesn't happen.

If you bump that down just a bit to the 30+ range, I completely agree. We've had numerous guys in the 20-25 range make an impact, sometimes immediately. But if you're outside the top-30, you definitely run the risk of never seeing significant PT at Duke.

Now, there are obviously exceptions (e.g., Thornton, Miles, Melchionni). But when Duke has success in recruiting, it's HIGHLY unlikely that a mid-tier guy is going to crack the rotation. The playing time of Thornton, Miles, and Melchionni was driven (at least initially) by necessity. We just didn't have many scholarship players when Melchionni was here. Thornton cracked the rotation in 2011-2012 due to us not having any college-ready PG (Rivers and Curry were SG; Cook wasn't ready yet). And Miles joined Duke when we had only 2 players taller than 6'8", which naturally opened up chances for him. All three of those guys earned Coach K's trust, but I think had they not been forced into the opportunity they wouldn't have otherwise been given a chance.

I'm not sure that it's a huge concern so long as Coach K can continue to hit home runs with his recruiting, though. If we regularly role out 5-star recruits, then we can afford to lose a guy or two here and there. As long as we don't run dry of "program guys" altogether, we'll be okay.

Kedsy
12-06-2013, 12:55 PM
And Miles joined Duke when we had only 2 players taller than 6'8", which naturally opened up chances for him.

Actually, when Miles joined Duke, I'm pretty sure we only had 1 other player taller than 6'8", although Miles didn't really get many minutes that year and the following year of course Mason and Ryan joined the team.

The Gordog
12-06-2013, 01:04 PM
there seems to be an undercurrent on this board when transfers or bench playing time are discussed. the gist of it is a fear that a very good player* is going to slip away from Duke because he gets tired of being buried on Coach K's bench. the fact that this has never happened in the 30+ years that Coach K has been at Duke does not seem to deter this fear for some reason.

* and by this i mean a player with the ability to be a major contributor at Duke on the court

I don't think this is the fear *at all*. The fear is that in some freak situation we might need him, such as an injury. What if Casey Sanders had transferred before Boozer got hurt? What if Michael Thompson had transferred and then we ran out of big men in the de facto National Championship game? Oh, right, that happened.

subzero02
12-06-2013, 01:07 PM
I really think Alex could turn into a very good offensive weapon... Maybe he will land with the Gators and follow in his brother's footsteps... I wish he could've had a few great games in a Duke uniform, the potential was there. If I were Amaker, I'd definitely make a run at Alex.

Goduke2010
12-06-2013, 01:15 PM
From what I recall, K has addressed this specific issue. From his perspective (and I paraphrase), these are very well conditioned 20 year olds. They play a 40 minute game with lots of tv timeouts. Barring injiry or foul trouble, top players should be able to play full-on for most of the game. A slightly winded star is more effective than a fresh 9th man. The only way to adjust to playing 32 minutes in late March is by playing 32 min's/game in December. This has probably backfired at times--both in regards to intra-game fatigue and season-long exhaustion--but it's hard to argue with the overall success.

Everything you say could make sense, but also might not. Which is why it would be helpful to have data. Stuff like shooting % by distance from hoop by minute played to that point.

I'll do some digging and report back.

GGLC
12-06-2013, 01:16 PM
I don't think this is the fear *at all*. The fear is that in some freak situation we might need him, such as an injury. What if Casey Sanders had transferred before Boozer got hurt? What if Michael Thompson had transferred and then we ran out of big men in the de facto National Championship game? Oh, right, that happened.

This is absolutely correct.

The Gordog
12-06-2013, 01:26 PM
Story here (https://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/12/05/source-alex-murphy-transfer-duke):

Just want to add my sincere wishes for Alex to have great success wherever he goes in basketball and in life. He will always be a Blue Devil to me and I hope he feels that way as well! If we ever play his team I hope he gets 30 points (in a losing effort :cool:.

CDu
12-06-2013, 01:31 PM
Actually, when Miles joined Duke, I'm pretty sure we only had 1 other player taller than 6'8", although Miles didn't really get many minutes that year and the following year of course Mason and Ryan joined the team.

I was including Miles as one of the two (Zoubek the other).

Billy Dat
12-06-2013, 01:43 PM
A secondary issue is whether his philosophy reduces the our recruitment of the non McDonald's A-A's who are often the senior glue in championship teams (ie, reduces the likelihood that we have a few 6'10" rebounders who we can interchangeably rotate onto the floor when we play top tier teams). Arizona, Michigan State, Kansas, etc seem to have them, and we sometimes don't. In other years, we seem to lack a few interchangeable 6'6" slashers (I say interchangeable since they'd be a top 50 player who fills a niche). And it's a possibility that thse guys don't come to Duke because of the short bench, but our team is essentially filled with top 30-40 talent; I'm not sure we'd want to turn down an elite player who's a good guy for a significantly worse player in hopes that they'd be glue guys--since they'd be glue guys who absolutely never get off the bench.

This is an interesting topic. I think it almost has more to do with the type of player K likes to recruit....he loves versatile wings. I once saw Jim Calhoun being interviewed by Charlie Rose and he broke down the type of player each big coach recruits - and he talked about K's love of versatile wing athletes. Other coaches, like Self and Izzo and Roy, like to have some big bruisers on that frontline.

I think top recruits are so confident in their own ability that they'd never turn down Duke for fear of not cracking the rotation, no matter how real the possibility is. It might make more sense for many of them to go to a lower profile school with a great coach and be "the man" ala Doug McDermott, Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, etc.

Matches
12-06-2013, 01:48 PM
I don't think this is the fear *at all*. The fear is that in some freak situation we might need him, such as an injury. What if Casey Sanders had transferred before Boozer got hurt? What if Michael Thompson had transferred and then we ran out of big men in the de facto National Championship game? Oh, right, that happened.

I don't think you can construct a roster around ensuring against every freak situation that possibly could occur. Some things cannot reasonably be foreseen. It'd be nice if no one ever transferred, but people do at every school. There's always going to be a 10th or 11th man on the bench, and that person will rarely be happy about being the 10th or 11th man.

ACCBBallFan
12-06-2013, 01:51 PM
Murphy always reminded me of Pocius. Very athletic, solid/good on offense (though not a strong 3 point shooter), yet doesn't fit in with whatever Coach is looking for on defense, so he gets very little playing time. That's not a knock on Coach K. Of course, Pocius is doing very well now. Hopefully, Murphy will do the same elsewhere.

Yes, Mart is who I thought of too. Played for his national team, seemingly very good offensively but could not live up to coach K's defensive expectations.

As to why now rather than during past off-season, have to remember that until a month ago, Duke only had one recruit for next year.

freshmanjs
12-06-2013, 02:02 PM
I don't think this is the fear *at all*. The fear is that in some freak situation we might need him, such as an injury. What if Casey Sanders had transferred before Boozer got hurt? What if Michael Thompson had transferred and then we ran out of big men in the de facto National Championship game? Oh, right, that happened.

that's not what i saw expressed with regard to Gbinije. it wasn't "we might need him an emergency someday." it was he should be playing, he can solve our defensive woes, he can solve our height issues, etc.

if the fear is that a guy like Thompson might not stick around to be the 4th big guy on the team, then that's something that we (along with every other program) will just have to live with.

Bob Green
12-06-2013, 02:24 PM
First and foremost, I wish Alex Murphy the best of luck in all future endeavors both basketball and non-basketball related. I hate to see him go but fully understand the young man needs to make decisions that best benefit his future.


He would seem to fill our only real need, a Duke "4" - a stretch post player, with the size to defend down low.

I believe the above statement clearly illustrates why Murphy struggled to see the court. Duke needs him to play as a stretch 4; however, he is not a good perimeter shooter. As a freshman, Murphy was 5-24 (.208) on 3PT FGs and 5-12 (.417) on Free Throws. So far this season, 1-5 and 2-4 respectively.

mgwalter
12-06-2013, 02:26 PM
I'm rooting for Alex - as many have said, he's a good kid and has been a positive contributor for the team on and off the court. I also appreciate the dozens of DBR users who have posted previously with similar comments. The absence of negativity speaks volumes about the civility of our fan base and our desire to see those who made a contribution to the program succeed even when circumstances result in an early exit.

Finally, I'll echo those who are hoping he lands with Collins. I think Northwestern provides a great opportunity for him to continue getting a great education and plenty of playing time against quality competition.

Matt

RPS
12-06-2013, 05:21 PM
From what I recall, K has addressed this specific issue. From his perspective (and I paraphrase), these are very well conditioned 20 year olds. They play a 40 minute game with lots of tv timeouts. Barring injiry or foul trouble, top players should be able to play full-on for most of the game. A slightly winded star is more effective than a fresh 9th man. The only way to adjust to playing 32 minutes in late March is by playing 32 min's/game in December. This has probably backfired at times--both in regards to intra-game fatigue and season-long exhaustion--but it's hard to argue with the overall success.

Every coach makes mistakes. K's record is, obviously, fantastic. But he has made mistakes too.

How transfers do elsewhere is no sure-fire indicator of how good "they really were" because it's impossible to know how differently things might have gone at Duke, elsewhere or in a different setting. Think Jeremy Lin for example. Confidence gained from regular playing time can make a big difference for some. For others, being forced to compete hard for it makes all the difference. There are many variables involved. We will likely never have a decent sense of how good Alex might have been. I wish him well.

Moreover, there are different possible approaches. Some coaches are willing to risk losing a few games during the course of a season to try to develop players for later (beyond what is possible in practice -- game action is important). Others play all-out to win every game. K is more in the latter camp. Good arguments can be made in both directions.

Kedsy
12-06-2013, 05:57 PM
Some coaches are willing to risk losing a few games during the course of a season to try to develop players for later (beyond what is possible in practice -- game action is important).

I understand the reasoning behind this assertion, but is there any evidence that this approach actually helps down the road?

Furniture
12-06-2013, 07:03 PM
I am really saddened by this. I like Alex. He seems like a very good kid and he looked to have a lot of promise. I hope he finds success and the comfort that he never seemed to have on the floor here. He wasn't a bad shooter, if I remember correctly, in high school, but he couldn't find his stroke here. Makes me think that part of it was anxiety. I really do wish him the best, though. It may not have worked out, but I will still consider him a blue devil in another uniform.

Unless he wasn't finding his stroke in practice I don't think he has been given many chances with game minutes.

lotusland
12-06-2013, 07:46 PM
I wish goodplayers would come to duke and play four years but that doesn't happen as often today as past years. Good college players with NBA size and athleticism for their position don't hang around. Meanwhile the one and done super freshmen and transfers rotate in, move to the front, then move on. Embracing that reality is probably the only way to keep the program in the top 10 consistently but it is unfortunate imo.

CrazyNotCrazie
12-06-2013, 08:55 PM
Just to fill out the list of Coach K transfers, Christian Ast came in with Grant Hill's class and won national titles his freshman and sophomore year and transferred to American. Not sure how he did there.

nmduke2001
12-06-2013, 09:21 PM
Just to fill out the list of Coach K transfers, Christian Ast came in with Grant Hill's class and won national titles his freshman and sophomore year and transferred to American. Not sure how he did there.

That's funny that you mention that. I was watching the 1991-1992 Duke documentary on NBA TV last night (again). Grant tells a story of going to play at UNC his sophomore year and forgetting his shoes in Durham. Christian Ast is the only person on the team with the same size shoes. Coach K promptly looks at Ast and tells him he isn't dressing out that night.

superdave
12-06-2013, 10:27 PM
That's funny that you mention that. I was watching the 1991-1992 Duke documentary on NBA TV last night (again). Grant tells a story of going to play at UNC his sophomore year and forgetting his shoes in Durham. Christian Ast is the only person on the team with the same size shoes. Coach K promptly looks at Ast and tells him he isn't dressing out that night.

That happened to me in high school. I didn't dress out. Gave up my shoes. Fortunately for the team I was not missed.

Matches
12-07-2013, 07:29 AM
I understand the reasoning behind this assertion, but is there any evidence that this approach actually helps down the road?

It's unknowable. The narrative of a team's season gets written with the benefit of hindsight. Duke's loss to Georgetown in 2010? Teaching loss. Turning point in the season. Beneficial for the team. The similar loss to St. John's in 2011? Bad loss. Sign of problems. Harbinger of things to come.

kAzE
12-07-2013, 09:26 AM
I guess the Winslow commitment was the final nail the coffin. Really unfortunate that things turned out the way they did for Alex. Everyone hyped him up to be Singler 2.0, which was just ridiculous. Nobody deserves to start any career with that type of expectation coming out the gate. (Wearing #12 probably made it a little worse, but I'm sure he had his own reasons)

He definitely has the talent to make it as a great college player, so I will definitely root for him to find a team and school that is a wonderful fit for him. Best of luck to him, and I wish him all the success in the world.

Kedsy
12-07-2013, 12:56 PM
It's unknowable. The narrative of a team's season gets written with the benefit of hindsight. Duke's loss to Georgetown in 2010? Teaching loss. Turning point in the season. Beneficial for the team. The similar loss to St. John's in 2011? Bad loss. Sign of problems. Harbinger of things to come.

Well played, sir.

miramar
12-07-2013, 02:06 PM
Since we have been on the topic of the ones who got away, UCLA lost to Missouri 80-71, in part because Tony Parker only scored three and the Wears two each. I hope that Alex doesn't end up with the Bruins because (to paraphrase Parker) they simply do not know how to develop big men.

MartyClark
12-07-2013, 02:19 PM
(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)

Let's stay on the good side of the McCaffrey family. The second son, Christian, is heading to Stanford after breaking all Colorado prep high school records. Two more McCaffrey boys still coming and both are apparently really good.

DukieInBrasil
12-08-2013, 04:28 PM
Let's stay on the good side of the McCaffrey family. The second son, Christian, is heading to Stanford after breaking all Colorado prep high school records. Two more McCaffrey boys still coming and both are apparently really good.

Hopefully, Christian can help Johnny D get the ship sailing in the right direction at Stanford. He's had a lackluster run so far, and injuries have really held Stanford back. They need something good!

Bob Green
12-08-2013, 04:34 PM
Hopefully, Christian can help Johnny D get the ship sailing in the right direction at Stanford. He's had a lackluster run so far, and injuries have really held Stanford back. They need something good!

Christian McCaffrey is a football player.

BD80
12-08-2013, 04:47 PM
Hopefully, Christian can help Johnny D get the ship sailing in the right direction at Stanford. He's had a lackluster run so far, and injuries have really held Stanford back. They need something good!


Christian McCaffrey is a football player.

Could probably still help

brevity
12-08-2013, 07:11 PM
Since we have been on the topic of the ones who got away, UCLA lost to Missouri 80-71, in part because Tony Parker only scored three and the Wears two each. I hope that Alex doesn't end up with the Bruins because (to paraphrase Parker) they simply do not know how to develop big men.

Tony Parker actually scored 13 points, including what would have been the game-winner. Sadly, those last 10 points came after the game ended and everyone went home.

MartyClark
12-08-2013, 07:38 PM
Christian McCaffrey is a football player.

Yeah, my fault for not specifying that.

devildeac
12-08-2013, 09:28 PM
Tony Parker actually scored 13 points, including what would have been the game-winner. Sadly, those last 10 points came after the game ended and everyone went home.

Did he have a press conference after the game?:rolleyes:

throatybeard
12-08-2013, 11:33 PM
Christian McCaffrey is a football player.

Can he run through a band?

Wait, no, that was California.

wsb3
12-09-2013, 06:52 AM
Joey Beard came in as a high prospect in 94 and transferred to Boston.

UrinalCake
12-09-2013, 10:22 AM
I wish goodplayers would come to duke and play four years but that doesn't happen as often today as past years. Good college players with NBA size and athleticism for their position don't hang around. Meanwhile the one and done super freshmen and transfers rotate in, move to the front, then move on. Embracing that reality is probably the only way to keep the program in the top 10 consistently but it is unfortunate imo.

I think this is unfair. We just had three seniors graduate. The year before that we only had one (Miles), but before that we had two (Kyle and Nolan) and before that three (Scheyer, Lance, Z). We have plenty of guys who stay for four years and develop. Transfers are inevitable as guys get recruited over, but we haven't had any in a while and I don't think the number we have is disproportionate to other top programs.

I do agree with you that one and done's are a reality if to want to compete for a title, but I think we're doing it the right way. The guys we get are at least committed to academics for the time that they're here, however short that may be.

CDu
12-09-2013, 01:46 PM
I wish goodplayers would come to duke and play four years but that doesn't happen as often today as past years. Good college players with NBA size and athleticism for their position don't hang around. Meanwhile the one and done super freshmen and transfers rotate in, move to the front, then move on. Embracing that reality is probably the only way to keep the program in the top 10 consistently but it is unfortunate imo.


I think this is unfair. We just had three seniors graduate. The year before that we only had one (Miles), but before that we had two (Kyle and Nolan) and before that three (Scheyer, Lance, Z). We have plenty of guys who stay for four years and develop. Transfers are inevitable as guys get recruited over, but we haven't had any in a while and I don't think the number we have is disproportionate to other top programs.

I do agree with you that one and done's are a reality if to want to compete for a title, but I think we're doing it the right way. The guys we get are at least committed to academics for the time that they're here, however short that may be.

I don't think what lotusland said is unfair. It's completely true that we don't see really good players come and stay for 4 years as often as we used to see. We still do see it some, to your point. But until 1999 we'd never had a player leave early for the NBA. Even after that, we had just a handful of guys leave as underclassmen (freshman or sophomore) through about 2010 (Brand, Maggette, Avery, Deng, McRoberts). Now? We've had a freshman go pro in 2 of the last three years. So the times are indeed changing.

Doesn't mean we won't get our fair share of good 4-year players. But it is certainly true that it happens less frequently now than it did in the past.

Jarhead
12-09-2013, 01:55 PM
It appears that this thread started out to specifically address the issue of Alex Murphy's decision to transfer, but now it seems to be more about early departure to the pros. The one and done athlete is a pretty hot topic, and an ongoing problem, but has anyone noticed that the problem is just a college basketball problem. Why is that? The leaving early syndrome happens in all sports having money to pay for new blood, but only basketball specifically has rules that establish the one and done structure. Let me put it another way -- only the NBA players association has a rule in its collective bargaining agreement that makes it all happen.

It doesn't happen for other sports, at least not so's you'd notice. Pro football uses the college game as its farm system, and doesn't draft a player until three years after he enters college, as I understand it. They let the players learn and grow in their farm system. MLB and the NHL conduct their drafts without any consideration of the players college status, it seems, and the media pays little attention to them. Other pro sports are either not team sports, such as golf or tennis, or their recruiting of new talent is virtually sub–rosa. Pro soccer is a total mystery to me, but I don't recall ever reading of college players leaving early. That leaves the NBA as the base for the issue. Now, is that fixable?

MChambers
12-09-2013, 02:01 PM
That leaves the NBA as the base for the issue. Now, is that fixable?
Only if the players' union would agree to changes to the collective bargaining agreement that would reduce the incentives for players to go pro as soon as possible. For reasons that escape me, the union seems to feel very strongly about allowing players to go to the NBA as soon as possible. You would have thought that the existing members of the union would want to keep new members out to the extent possible, or at least an economist would think that, but that has not been the stance of the union.

Matches
12-09-2013, 02:03 PM
It appears that this thread started out to specifically address the issue of Alex Murphy's decision to transfer, but now it seems to be more about early departure to the pros. The one and done athlete is a pretty hot topic, and an ongoing problem, but has anyone noticed that the problem is just a college basketball problem. Why is that? The leaving early syndrome happens in all sports having money to pay for new blood, but only basketball specifically has rules that establish the one and done structure. Let me put it another way -- only the NBA players association has a rule in its collective bargaining agreement that makes it all happen.

It doesn't happen for other sports, at least not so's you'd notice. Pro football uses the college game as its farm system, and doesn't draft a player until three years after he enters college, as I understand it. They let the players learn and grow in their farm system. MLB and the NHL conduct their drafts without any consideration of the players college status, it seems, and the media pays little attention to them. Other pro sports are either not team sports, such as golf or tennis, or their recruiting of new talent is virtually sub–rosa. Pro soccer is a total mystery to me, but I don't recall ever reading of college players leaving early. That leaves the NBA as the base for the issue. Now, is that fixable?

Football isn't the best comp, because most 18-19 year olds are not physically mature enough to play in the pros. Basketball doesn't have that issue. Baseball drafts ton of guys right out of high school. Their rule is that if you go to college you aren't eligible to be drafted for three years - which is a nice idea, but if you implement that in college, you'll actually speed up, rather than slow down, early entry.

Kedsy
12-09-2013, 03:48 PM
MLB and the NHL conduct their drafts without any consideration of the players college status, it seems, and the media pays little attention to them.

I thought in baseball, you could either be drafted out of high school or after your junior or senior years (but not after freshman or sophomore years). Is that not true?

Edit: Matches beat me to it. I guess it is true.

grad_devil
12-09-2013, 03:49 PM
...Their rule is that if you go to college you aren't eligible to be drafted for three years - which is a nice idea, but if you implement that in college, you'll actually speed up, rather than slow down, early entry...

I'm actually terribly ok with speeding up early entry.

My desire is to build a "relationship" with those players who choose Duke, and who choose to be student-athletes. As we all know, not everyone is cut out to be a student-athlete. I want to watch these Duke freshmen improve from year to year, and identify them as members of the Duke family, so to speak.

Kobe, Lebron, KG, Dwight, et. al. went pro directly out of high school, and they still held the NCAA Tournament those years and it was still, IMHO, the best sporting event.

I say let's* stop forcing these athletes to pretend to be "students" for a semester on their way to the NBA. Instead, let's embrace those kids that want to play and get an education.

*I know the "us" in that contraction is the NBAPA, so I'll forward my message along.

Just my $0.04,

Matches
12-09-2013, 03:53 PM
I'm actually terribly ok with speeding up early entry.



It's fine with me too. But early entry was identified up thread as a "problem" (and that's not an unfair characterization given its deleterious effect on the college game). My point was just that if one identifies early entry as a problem, adopting the baseball rules isn't a solution.

Personally I think if an 18 year old is ready to play professionally, he should be able to do so.

sagegrouse
12-09-2013, 03:55 PM
Football isn't the best comp, because most 18-19 year olds are not physically mature enough to play in the pros. Basketball doesn't have that issue. Baseball drafts ton of guys right out of high school. Their rule is that if you go to college you aren't eligible to be drafted for three years - which is a nice idea, but if you implement that in college, you'll actually speed up, rather than slow down, early entry.


I'm actually terribly ok with speeding up early entry.

My desire is to build a "relationship" with those players who choose Duke, and who choose to be student-athletes. As we all know, not everyone is cut out to be a student-athlete. I want to watch these Duke freshmen improve from year to year, and identify them as members of the Duke family, so to speak.

Kobe, Lebron, KG, Dwight, et. al. went pro directly out of high school, and they still held the NCAA Tournament those years and it was still, IMHO, the best sporting event.

I say let's* stop forcing these athletes to pretend to be "students" for a semester on their way to the NBA. Instead, let's embrace those kids that want to play and get an education.

*I know the "us" in that contraction is the NBAPA, so I'll forward my message along.

Just my $0.04,

I'd volunteer for the MLB system for basketball in two seconds. That way, the players you get are almost certain to stay three years.

MChambers
12-09-2013, 04:06 PM
It's fine with me too. But early entry was identified up thread as a "problem" (and that's not an unfair characterization given its deleterious effect on the college game). My point was just that if one identifies early entry as a problem, adopting the baseball rules isn't a solution.

Personally I think if an 18 year old is ready to play professionally, he should be able to do so.
I agree with you, but think that the current system creates a perverse incentive for players to go pro as soon as possible, to burn off the rookie salary cap. I'd like to see players get some sort of credit under the cap for staying in school.

freedevil
12-09-2013, 04:21 PM
I'd like to see players get some sort of credit under the cap for staying in school.

That's a really cool idea actually.

devilsadvocate85
12-09-2013, 05:55 PM
That's a really cool idea actually.

I actually had an email conversation with Jay Bilas about a system like this a few years back. The challenge is that neither of the parties (the NBA & NBA Players Association) who would have to approve & fund such a model seem to have any interest in doing so.

For the players, one would think that a system like this would be a positive -- keeping marginal / risky prospects off NBA rosters, leaving more slots for veterans. It "should" also further the educations of those prospects who choose to develop further while in college rather than on an NBA bench or NBDL team. Right now, for top flight prospects, the only consideration is to get the clock ticking toward that first "max contract".

The league and owners really don't have much incentive here either. U.S. high schools and colleges, as well as the foreign leagues deliver a fresh crop of "inventory" on a continual basis, so cutting loose a failed experiment is painful, but there are replacements knocking on their doors constantly. We would like to think there is some altruism in their motives, but it is a business after all. If the resources aren't producing, find some who will.

I believe a lot of these issues are why Coach K has been lobbying for a "basketball czar" for the last few years. Someone to bring all the parties together in the best interests of the sport in the U.S., as well as to represent our global interests. Rules, eligibility and player development would be on that person's short list day one.

Here's hoping it happens soon.

NashvilleDevil
12-09-2013, 06:12 PM
I'd volunteer for the MLB system for basketball in two seconds. That way, the players you get are almost certain to stay three years.

I think in basketball it should be modified to two years if they went with the MLB model.

lotusland
12-10-2013, 08:11 AM
I think this is unfair. We just had three seniors graduate. The year before that we only had one (Miles), but before that we had two (Kyle and Nolan) and before that three (Scheyer, Lance, Z). We have plenty of guys who stay for four years and develop. Transfers are inevitable as guys get recruited over, but we haven't had any in a while and I don't think the number we have is disproportionate to other top programs.

I do agree with you that one and done's are a reality if to want to compete for a title, but I think we're doing it the right way. The guys we get are at least committed to academics for the time that they're here, however short that may be.

My post wasn't intended as criticism as much as a lament that we don't get to see guys like Laettner and Grant Hill for 4-years anymore. We were fortunate to have Singler and Mason for 4-years but neither of those guys were sure lottery picks prior to their senior years. I think, with Singler, there was fair concern that he didn't have an NBA game to match his size/athleticism. Ditto for Lance, Jon, Nolan, Ryan and Seth. If Duke had brought in Parker, Hood, Okafor, Winslow and even Ojeyleye over Ryan Kelly's Sophomore and Junior years, do you think he would have developed into the player he eventually became injuries not withstanding? Yet we did have a team capable of competing for a championship last year had Kelly remained healthy. So all I'm saying is that if Duke were guaranteed a championship in 2015, I'd rather win it with Seniors - Murphy and Plumlee and Sheed - than with whatever one and done freshmen and/or transfers are available. I also understand that I'm trying to have it both ways - lots of talent with no early departures or transfers - but that is the beauty of being a fan!

Anyway - best of luck to Murph wherever he ends up!

johnb
12-10-2013, 01:30 PM
My post wasn't intended as criticism as much as a lament....... If Duke had brought in Parker, Hood, Okafor, Winslow and even Ojeyleye over Ryan Kelly's Sophomore and Junior years, do you think he would have developed into the player he eventually became injuries not withstanding? Yet we did have a team capable of competing for a championship last year had Kelly remained healthy. ......

If we'd had any of the first three last year (jury's out on Justise and Semi), we'd have been a much more dominant team (starting front line of Mason, Okafor, and Parker/Hood would have been fun to watch. why not just throw in an upperclass Kyrie while we're at it?)

How would that have affected Ryan's development? I don't know, but it wouldn't have hurt to practice against those guys day-in and day-out. Probably would have affected his visibility since he'd have been unlikely to have the Miami game in his hip pocket.

Fortunately, it seems likely that we can continue to have a team of multi-year guys, peppered with a guy or two who is going pro early. If you really don't like the guys who are liable to get drafted early, I'm not sure that we should follow the types of teams that are going to be perennially in the top 10.

lotusland
12-10-2013, 02:08 PM
If we'd had any of the first three last year (jury's out on Justise and Semi), we'd have been a much more dominant team (starting front line of Mason, Okafor, and Parker/Hood would have been fun to watch. why not just throw in an upperclass Kyrie while we're at it?)

How would that have affected Ryan's development? I don't know, but it wouldn't have hurt to practice against those guys day-in and day-out. Probably would have affected his visibility since he'd have been unlikely to have the Miami game in his hip pocket.

Fortunately, it seems likely that we can continue to have a team of multi-year guys, peppered with a guy or two who is going pro early. If you really don't like the guys who are liable to get drafted early, I'm not sure that we should follow the types of teams that are going to be perennially in the top 10.

I think if you re-read your first paragraph - "If we'd had any of the first three last year (jury's out on Justise and Semi), we'd have been a much more dominant team (starting front line of Mason, Okafor, and Parker/Hood..." you will notice that Kelly's name is not mentioned and thus you will have the answer to your question "How would that have affected Ryan's development?"

I know the idea that players develop in practice as well as games is implied often on this board but that pretty much goes against conventional wisdom and I don't buy it. Much to the chagrin of myself and other DBR posters, Duke didn't land a single recruit after Ryan arrived that was a legitimate threat to play ahead of him at the 4 or 5 position. If Murphy enjoyed the same good fortune I think it is reasonable to suggest that he might have had a comparable junior and senior year at Duke in terms of his production ( I realize Murphy is more of a 3-4 and plays a much different game). Again I'm not suggesting that Coach K stop going after the top recruits. What I am saying is that a Senior Murphy with extensive court experience might actually be as good or better than a 2015 freshman top 5-10 recruit. I guess I'm opposite from many posters in that I really look forward to seeing guys develop while they're here more than the potential of big time recruits. I think Murphy just got caught in an extremely good recruiting cycle for Duke so he didn't get the same opportunity that Kelly did. On the positive side I think this opens up more room for Semi to develop into big contributor hopefully next year and beyond.

Orange&BlackSheep
12-10-2013, 02:52 PM
(1) Billy McCaffrey - Two-time All American at Vanderbilt, averaging 20.6 and 20.9 ppg. (His family has not soured on Duke. Billy's brother's son is a star receiver for our Blue Devils.)
(2) Elliot Williams - Averaged 11 ppg with Memphis in one season, and was a 1st round NBA draft pick. He has not made a splash professionally.


The rest:
Mike Chappell - Never averaged more than 6 ppg with the Spartans, playing 14.4 and 13.6 mpg, respectively.
Andre Sweet - Averaged about 9 ppg over three seasons with Seton Hall.
Eric Boateng - Averaged about 8 ppg in his senior year with Arizona State.
Jamal Boykin - Averaged about 10 ppg in his senior year with Cal.
Olek Czyz - Averaged 12 ppg in his year with Nevada.

Billy Mc was also Co-SEC player of the year and was apparently not hampered by an earlier poster's claim of teams ganging up on him ...

O&B Sheep
also born in Lehigh Valley, PA like BMc

Edouble
12-11-2013, 01:52 AM
I think if you re-read your first paragraph - "If we'd had any of the first three last year (jury's out on Justise and Semi), we'd have been a much more dominant team (starting front line of Mason, Okafor, and Parker/Hood..." you will notice that Kelly's name is not mentioned and thus you will have the answer to your question "How would that have affected Ryan's development?"

I know the idea that players develop in practice as well as games is implied often on this board but that pretty much goes against conventional wisdom and I don't buy it. Much to the chagrin of myself and other DBR posters, Duke didn't land a single recruit after Ryan arrived that was a legitimate threat to play ahead of him at the 4 or 5 position. If Murphy enjoyed the same good fortune I think it is reasonable to suggest that he might have had a comparable junior and senior year at Duke in terms of his production ( I realize Murphy is more of a 3-4 and plays a much different game). Again I'm not suggesting that Coach K stop going after the top recruits. What I am saying is that a Senior Murphy with extensive court experience might actually be as good or better than a 2015 freshman top 5-10 recruit. I guess I'm opposite from many posters in that I really look forward to seeing guys develop while they're here more than the potential of big time recruits. I think Murphy just got caught in an extremely good recruiting cycle for Duke so he didn't get the same opportunity that Kelly did. On the positive side I think this opens up more room for Semi to develop into big contributor hopefully next year and beyond.

I think the comparison is off. Kelly was a much more highly rated recruit than Murphy. He was 6'11" and won the McDonald's 3 Point Shooting Contest!!! I think he was gonna be on the court no matter what, once he gained a bit of muscle.

Kelly was ranked #20 overall by Rivals and was a top 5 player at his position. Murphy was ranked #45 by Rivals and was in the top 10-15 range for his position. As has been said on this board many times, there is a significant drop off in most player's expected minutes after the top 20 or so, give or take. A player just inside the top 50 is just gonna have a much harder time being a significant factor in a Duke uniform.

lotusland
12-11-2013, 04:30 AM
I think the comparison is off. Kelly was a much more highly rated recruit than Murphy. He was 6'11" and won the McDonald's 3 Point Shooting Contest!!! I think he was gonna be on the court no matter what, once he gained a bit of muscle.

Kelly was ranked #20 overall by Rivals and was a top 5 player at his position. Murphy was ranked #45 by Rivals and was in the top 10-15 range for his position. As has been said on this board many times, there is a significant drop off in most player's expected minutes after the top 20 or so, give or take. A player just inside the top 50 is just gonna have a much harder time being a significant factor in a Duke uniform.

I think Alex was actually ranked higher than #20 before he reclassified. Murphy started the games in China before red-shirting after an injury. I mentioned that Murphy's game is much different than Ryan's but Alex is way more Athletic. Regardless of rank, Kelly barely played his freshman year in 2010. If Parker, Hood and Ojeleye had come in as Freshmen in Ryan's sophomore year, he would have been glued to the end of the bench much like Murphy this year. Subtract Parker, Hood and Semi from this year's roster and either Plumlee, Murphy or both are starters. Either way Murphy plays big minutes. Remember Duke did not bring in a single 4-5 recruit after Ryan arrived. So imagine no Okafor and Winslow next year and Murphy is going to play starter minutes again and it seems perfectly reasonable to me that he's at least a third team All ACC caliber player by his senior year if not better. Not that it makes any difference whatever but I'll stand by my theory that Murphy may have had a Kelly like career at Duke had he not been recruited over so to speak.

Kedsy
12-11-2013, 06:56 AM
I think Alex was actually ranked higher than #20 before he reclassified. Murphy started the games in China before red-shirting after an injury. I mentioned that Murphy's game is much different than Ryan's but Alex is way more Athletic. Regardless of rank, Kelly barely played his freshman year in 2010. If Parker, Hood and Ojeleye had come in as Freshmen in Ryan's sophomore year, he would have been glued to the end of the bench much like Murphy this year. Subtract Parker, Hood and Semi from this year's roster and either Plumlee, Murphy or both are starters. Either way Murphy plays big minutes. Remember Duke did not bring in a single 4-5 recruit after Ryan arrived. So imagine no Okafor and Winslow next year and Murphy is going to play starter minutes again and it seems perfectly reasonable to me that he's at least a third team All ACC caliber player by his senior year if not better. Not that it makes any difference whatever but I'll stand by my theory that Murphy may have had a Kelly like career at Duke had he not been recruited over so to speak.

Ryan was ranked #14 in the RSCI. I believe some people (but not all) had Alex in the mid-teens before he re-classified, but I get the feeling he was dropping anyway, so had he stayed in his original class while he wouldn't have been as low as the #49 he was in RSCI, he probably would have been ranked lower than Ryan.

Also, if you subtracted Jabari, Rodney, and Semi from the roster, we'd only have 9 players and only 4 taller than 6'5. When Ryan came on board, we had Z and Lance, Miles and Mason, which is why Ryan didn't play much. Though in the spirit of your hypothetical, subtract Z, Mason, and Miles and Ryan would have been our starting center and played close to 40 minutes a game.

Not only that, based on current evidence, if Jabari, Rodney, and Semi somehow vanished, it would be Amile and Josh probably starting, Marshall first big off the bench and Alex would probably be the 9th man.

Finally, I don't know why Semi is even in this conversation. A sophomore Ryan would have started over a freshman Semi every day of the week. And frankly, a sophomore Ryan would have started over a redshirt sophomore Alex every day as well. It's kind of crazy the way some people sell Ryan short around here.

lotusland
12-11-2013, 07:34 AM
Ryan was ranked #14 in the RSCI. I believe some people (but not all) had Alex in the mid-teens before he re-classified, but I get the feeling he was dropping anyway, so had he stayed in his original class while he wouldn't have been as low as the #49 he was in RSCI, he probably would have been ranked lower than Ryan.

Also, if you subtracted Jabari, Rodney, and Semi from the roster, we'd only have 9 players and only 4 taller than 6'5. When Ryan came on board, we had Z and Lance, Miles and Mason, which is why Ryan didn't play much. Though in the spirit of your hypothetical, subtract Z, Mason, and Miles and Ryan would have been our starting center and played close to 40 minutes a game.

Not only that, based on current evidence, if Jabari, Rodney, and Semi somehow vanished, it would be Amile and Josh probably starting, Marshall first big off the bench and Alex would probably be the 9th man.

Finally, I don't know why Semi is even in this conversation. A sophomore Ryan would have started over a freshman Semi every day of the week. And frankly, a sophomore Ryan would have started over a redshirt sophomore Alex every day as well. It's kind of crazy the way some people sell Ryan short around here.

You failed to address the hypothetical that I presented and created a straw-man instead. I never sold Ryan short - far from it - in fact my point was that Ryan developed into a terrific player and that his development was greatly improved by Duke's failure to successfully recruit big men after he arrived. Z, Miles, MP1 and MP2 were already here when Ryan arrived so they have nothing to do with the comparison. Ryan and Murphy had comparable impacts in their freshman years because of the upper-classmen ahead of them in the rotation. My premise is that their career paths diverged dramatically in their sophomore years due to recruiting success or, in the case of Ryan, lack of success. I did forget Josh in my analysis and I think you have a point that Josh and Amile would likely have started but I think it is very doubtful that we would have a 3-man rotation of Amile, Josh and MP3 with Murph buried on the bench. Worst case it would be a 4-man big rotation like 2010. Also without Hood, Murphy might have gotten some burn on the wing. The reason I included Semi in the comparison is that he is recruit who competed for playing time at 3-4 with Murphy whereas Duke did not add anyone other than Josh to compete with Ryan after he arrived.

My point is simply that recruiting misses can actually pay dividends in later years and Ryan is an example IMO.

Li_Duke
12-11-2013, 09:33 AM
Actually I've always wondered what would have happened to Ryan Kelly if we had gotten Harrison Barnes (and kept him for his sophomore year). I think we would have seen a 10-11 roster of Irving, Smith, Singler, Barnes, PlumleeII with a bench of Curry/Dawkins and Kelly/PlumleeI. After Irving's injury though, I'm not sure which of those 4 + Thornton would have ended up in the starting line-up.

In 11-12, we'd probably have started with Curry, Rivers, Barnes, Kelly, PlumleeII with Thornton, Dawkins, and PlumleeI on the bench, and in 12-13, have the same line-up as we did last year. So I don't think Kelly's development would have been that much affected with HB in the fold. He's a legit 7 footer with 3 point range whose defense became quite good by his senior year (I think defending HB in practice his sophomore year would have only helped that, not hinder). He could also play either center or power forward. And if we had a sophomore Kelly on this year's team, I'd think he'd be competing for the center position with Hairston and Jefferson (and winning).

I get what you're trying to say, but I think your argument would be better if you used Thornton as your example rather than Kelly. Kelly was just too good coming in. From 2010-11 to 2014-2015, our best six "big" players have been (will be) Okafor, Parker, Plumlee II, Singler, Hood, and Kelly. They would have played 3 positions SF, PF, and C. Even if they all overlapped and played all 4 years, I think Kelly would have still made the rotation as there is no one else who can do what he can do (stretch the floor with the 3 and be a near 7-footer on the other end). Parker/Singler would have played minutes at SF, and Hood would have probably been pushed to SG.

Kedsy
12-11-2013, 11:26 AM
You failed to address the hypothetical that I presented and created a straw-man instead. I never sold Ryan short - far from it - in fact my point was that Ryan developed into a terrific player and that his development was greatly improved by Duke's failure to successfully recruit big men after he arrived. Z, Miles, MP1 and MP2 were already here when Ryan arrived so they have nothing to do with the comparison. Ryan and Murphy had comparable impacts in their freshman years because of the upper-classmen ahead of them in the rotation. My premise is that their career paths diverged dramatically in their sophomore years due to recruiting success or, in the case of Ryan, lack of success. I did forget Josh in my analysis and I think you have a point that Josh and Amile would likely have started but I think it is very doubtful that we would have a 3-man rotation of Amile, Josh and MP3 with Murph buried on the bench. Worst case it would be a 4-man big rotation like 2010. Also without Hood, Murphy might have gotten some burn on the wing. The reason I included Semi in the comparison is that he is recruit who competed for playing time at 3-4 with Murphy whereas Duke did not add anyone other than Josh to compete with Ryan after he arrived.

My point is simply that recruiting misses can actually pay dividends in later years and Ryan is an example IMO.

OK, I don't want to argue with your final point, which I think has some truth to it. I just don't think Alex would have had nearly the same path as Ryan. In Ryan's second year, he got almost twice as many starts and 115 more minutes than Miles, so he was ahead of him in the rotation as the 2nd big. Even if Jabari and Rodney were on that team, Ryan still would have been solidly in the rotation (though Miles, who ended up being a first-round pick, may not have been, so there your point may have more validity).

I disagree that in the hypothetical 9-man roster (this year's team without Jabari, Rodney, and Semi) the "worst case it would be a 4-man big rotation like 2010." More likely we'd have a three-big rotation with DBR exploding because we spent a few minutes a game going really small (Amile or Marshall with two of Andre/Matt/Tyler at PF/SF plus Rasheed and Quinn). And I say that because all five of those perimeter players are ahead of Alex and Coach K has never played a 9-man rotation (in 2010 we had a four-big rotation because we only had a four-wing rotation, for a total of 8 in the rotation). Alex might have eeked in 5 minutes a game as a 4th big and 6th perimeter guy.

Finally, I don't think Coach K would have recruited two more top-level bigs while Ryan, Mason, and Miles were here. He would have concentrated on wings (which he did, including recruiting Alex who at the time was thought of as a big wing). The fact that he recruited players who competed with Alex for time was possibly in part due to the fact that Alex didn't develop as well as most people (including Coach K) thought he would.

tommy
12-11-2013, 01:00 PM
Finally, I don't think Coach K would have recruited two more top-level bigs while Ryan, Mason, and Miles were here. He would have concentrated on wings (which he did, including recruiting Alex who at the time was thought of as a big wing).

And in fact, he didn't. I don't believe we seriously recruited any bigs in the Class of 2010. In 2011 we recruited Tyler Adams and Marshall Plumlee, neither of whose game resembles Ryan's in any way. K waited until the Class of 2012, when he went after Tony Parker, McGary, and Perry Ellis. McGary and Ellis theoretically could have handled some of Ryan's responsibilities, but with Ryan a senior and those guys freshmen, they wouldn't have taken much of Kelly's PT in my opinion.

Kedsy
12-11-2013, 01:06 PM
And in fact, he didn't. I don't believe we seriously recruited any bigs in the Class of 2010. In 2011 we recruited Tyler Adams and Marshall Plumlee, neither of whose game resembles Ryan's in any way. K waited until the Class of 2012, when he went after Tony Parker, McGary, and Perry Ellis. McGary and Ellis theoretically could have handled some of Ryan's responsibilities, but with Ryan a senior and those guys freshmen, they wouldn't have taken much of Kelly's PT in my opinion.

Plus when Ryan was a senior, Miles was gone so there was room for another big in the rotation.

lotusland
12-11-2013, 02:31 PM
OK, I don't want to argue with your final point, which I think has some truth to it. I just don't think Alex would have had nearly the same path as Ryan. In Ryan's second year, he got almost twice as many starts and 115 more minutes than Miles, so he was ahead of him in the rotation as the 2nd big. Even if Jabari and Rodney were on that team, Ryan still would have been solidly in the rotation (though Miles, who ended up being a first-round pick, may not have been, so there your point may have more validity).

I disagree that in the hypothetical 9-man roster (this year's team without Jabari, Rodney, and Semi) the "worst case it would be a 4-man big rotation like 2010." More likely we'd have a three-big rotation with DBR exploding because we spent a few minutes a game going really small (Amile or Marshall with two of Andre/Matt/Tyler at PF/SF plus Rasheed and Quinn). And I say that because all five of those perimeter players are ahead of Alex and Coach K has never played a 9-man rotation (in 2010 we had a four-big rotation because we only had a four-wing rotation, for a total of 8 in the rotation). Alex might have eeked in 5 minutes a game as a 4th big and 6th perimeter guy.

Finally, I don't think Coach K would have recruited two more top-level bigs while Ryan, Mason, and Miles were here. He would have concentrated on wings (which he did, including recruiting Alex who at the time was thought of as a big wing). The fact that he recruited players who competed with Alex for time was possibly in part due to the fact that Alex didn't develop as well as most people (including Coach K) thought he would.

1. Ryan's minutes were almost exclusively at the 4-spot in 2011. He played 4 when either Miles or Mason were playing 5. Ryan would have been 3rd string playing Center. With Singler, Hood and Parker on the team, Sophomore Ryan was not getting any meaningful minutes at 3 or 4. Maybe Duke would have been so good that he'd get a fair amount of mop up minutes but there would be no "need" for Ryan to be in that rotation and I think we all agree that K doesn't play guys in meaningful minutes, at the expense of far superior players just to develop them and, as a sophomore Ryan was a huge drop-off from those four.

2. MP3 and Josh can't stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes a game without fouling out so It would have to be a 4-man rotation by necessity. Not to mention that I don't see Murphy as that much of a drop-off from MP3 and Josh. Certainly not the same as Sophomore Ryan subbing in for Singler, Hood, Parker or Mason.

3. So you are telling me K would have passed on offering Parker a scholarship Ryan's Sophomore year? Likewise if Murphy had developed "as Coach K Thought" K wouldn't have recruited Parker or accepted Hood? Seriously?

Kedsy
12-11-2013, 03:12 PM
1. Ryan's minutes were almost exclusively at the 4-spot in 2011. He played 4 when either Miles or Mason were playing 5. Ryan would have been 3rd string playing Center. With Singler, Hood and Parker on the team, Sophomore Ryan was not getting any meaningful minutes at 3 or 4.

Ryan played PF because when paired with Mason or Miles that position made the most sense for him. If we had Mason and Jabari, then Ryan would have been the 3rd big, playing PF with Mason and C with Jabari. I believe Miles would have been the odd man out in this scenario, not Ryan. Kyle and Rodney were wings and would have been taking minutes from, Seth/Andre/Tyler, not Ryan.


2. MP3 and Josh can't stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes a game without fouling out so It would have to be a 4-man rotation by necessity. Not to mention that I don't see Murphy as that much of a drop-off from MP3 and Josh. Certainly not the same as Sophomore Ryan subbing in for Singler, Hood, Parker or Mason.

First of all, Marshall's career foul rate is 4.2 fouls per 40 minutes. I understand he hasn't played many minutes, but there's no evidence that he'd foul out after 20. Assuming Amile and Marshall could play 25 minutes each and Josh 20, based on K's history, most of the remaining 10 minutes would have probably been devoted to a center and four small wings, rather than fitting Alex in as the 4th big. Like I said before, he probably would have played around 5 minutes a game in this hypothetical.


3. So you are telling me K would have passed on offering Parker a scholarship Ryan's Sophomore year? Likewise if Murphy had developed "as Coach K Thought" K wouldn't have recruited Parker or accepted Hood? Seriously?

Talk about a strawman argument.

lotusland
12-11-2013, 08:42 PM
Ryan played PF because when paired with Mason or Miles that position made the most sense for him. If we had Mason and Jabari, then Ryan would have been the 3rd big, playing PF with Mason and C with Jabari. I believe Miles would have been the odd man out in this scenario, not Ryan. Kyle and Rodney were wings and would have been taking minutes from, Seth/Andre/Tyler, not Ryan.


No Ryan as a sophomore would not have gotten off the bench to guard the opponent's Center. Banging in the post wasn't Ryan's game as a senior much less as a Sophomore coming off a freshman year in which he'd barely played. Ryan became a very good help defender in the post but Junior Miles was a far better option. Kelly developed skills that the Neither Miles Nor Mason ever possessed but he had not exhibited them yet in 2011 and with Parker and Hood added to the hypothetical lineup, Ryan would have been expendable. Sure K could have taken some minutes from Mason, Parker, Singler and Hood to get Ryan 5MPG over Miles but why would he if the game wasn't already decided? That lineup doesn't need an unproven stretch 4.


First of all, Marshall's career foul rate is 4.2 fouls per 40 minutes. I understand he hasn't played many minutes, but there's no evidence that he'd foul out after 20. Assuming Amile and Marshall could play 25 minutes each and Josh 20, based on K's history, most of the remaining 10 minutes would have probably been devoted to a center and four small wings, rather than fitting Alex in as the 4th big. Like I said before, he probably would have played around 5 minutes a game in this hypothetical.


We Disagree. You're arguing above that K would have created 5 MPG for Ryan to play center on an absolutely stacked and deep team yet Alex couldn't get any more than 5 MPG with Josh, Amile and MP3 playing ahead of him.


Talk about a strawman argument.

Here are your words:


Finally, I don't think Coach K would have recruited two more top-level bigs while Ryan, Mason, and Miles were here
So you are not saying that K would have passed on Parker and Hood for Ryan's Sophomore year? After all that is the basis of my Hypothetical - that Alex struggled and Ryan prospered in a large part because of Duke's recruiting success after Alex arrived and their lack of success after Ryan arrived.

And finally you said


The fact that he recruited players who competed with Alex for time was possibly in part due to the fact that Alex didn't develop as well as most people (including Coach K) thought he would
So by this you didn't mean that K might have passed on Parker and Hood if Murphy had developed as expected? Those are the guys playing in front of Murphy. Who else could you possibly be referring to that K recruited in part due the fact that Murphy didn't develop as expected?

I didn't intend my post to criticize Murphy, Kelly or Coach K. I don't think the idea that Ryan's productivity would have suffered had Parker and Hood been here his sophomore year and Okafor and Winslow in his Junior year. Likewise, is it really controversial to say that Alex would have been quite a bit more productive without the same competition for playing time?

Furniture
12-11-2013, 09:04 PM
I have been thinking about this for a while now but if I look back and reflect about Murph I think the following: a young man playing few minutes, defending running ahead planting himself in the corner and hardly getting the ball, just leaning forward with his arms out but never, or hardly ever getting the ball. In other words I don't feel he was given much of a chance to gain confidence. That's my feeling..... I also remember one fabulous dunk! It's a shame!

Kedsy
12-11-2013, 09:30 PM
No Ryan as a sophomore would not have gotten off the bench to guard the opponent's Center. Banging in the post wasn't Ryan's game as a senior much less as a Sophomore coming off a freshman year in which he'd barely played. Ryan became a very good help defender in the post but Junior Miles was a far better option. Kelly developed skills that the Neither Miles Nor Mason ever possessed but he had not exhibited them yet in 2011 and with Parker and Hood added to the hypothetical lineup, Ryan would have been expendable. Sure K could have taken some minutes from Mason, Parker, Singler and Hood to get Ryan 5MPG over Miles but why would he if the game wasn't already decided? That lineup doesn't need an unproven stretch 4.

I completely disagree.


We Disagree. You're arguing above that K would have created 5 MPG for Ryan to play center on an absolutely stacked and deep team yet Alex couldn't get any more than 5 MPG with Josh, Amile and MP3 playing ahead of him.

No, I'm saying I believe Ryan would have been the third big in the rotation, which under Coach K is usually good for between 15 and 20 minutes per game of mixed PF/C play. And I'm saying I believe Alex would have been the fourth big in the rotation, which under Coach K is usually good for about 5 minutes per game total.


So you are not saying that K would have passed on Parker and Hood for Ryan's Sophomore year? After all that is the basis of my Hypothetical - that Alex struggled and Ryan prospered in a large part because of Duke's recruiting success after Alex arrived and their lack of success after Ryan arrived.

No I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying, first, that Rodney Hood isn't a big, he's a wing, and recruiting him would have little if any impact on Ryan's playing time. And second, when I said he wouldn't have recruited two top level bigs, I mean he might have gone after a Jabari Parker (one) if he was out there, but he wouldn't have taken both him and, say, Myles Turner (two).


So by this you didn't mean that K might have passed on Parker and Hood if Murphy had developed as expected? Those are the guys playing in front of Murphy. Who else could you possibly be referring to that K recruited in part due the fact that Murphy didn't develop as expected?

No, again I'm not talking about Jabari or Rodney. Maybe Semi, though. Possibly Grayson. Maybe even Justise, although he's highly rated enough we likely would have gone after him anyway. And probably some of the other wing players we recruited but decided to go elsewhere. But let's be clear, right now everybody is playing in front of Alex. It's a totally different situation from Ryan Kelly, who had the sixth most minutes on the 2011 team.


I didn't intend my post to criticize Murphy, Kelly or Coach K. I don't think the idea that Ryan's productivity would have suffered had Parker and Hood been here his sophomore year and Okafor and Winslow in his Junior year. Likewise, is it really controversial to say that Alex would have been quite a bit more productive without the same competition for playing time?

I apologize if I overreacted to what sounded to me like criticism of Ryan Kelly. Without putting Alex down, I think Ryan as a sophomore was a significantly better player than Alex is now, so the comparison doesn't make sense to me. As I think I said earlier, however, the idea that players are more productive when they have less competition for playing time is sensible. I didn't intend to argue with that portion of your theory.

cato
12-11-2013, 10:04 PM
How many ravens fit on the head of a pin?

westwall
12-11-2013, 10:29 PM
How many ravens fit on the head of a pin?

--Right. It is difficult to recall a more boring argument -- and one further off the thread topic --than this one.

jacone21
12-12-2013, 04:44 PM
Will we see Alex in the game Monday? Or is he done?

Sorry if it's already been discussed.

timmy c
12-12-2013, 04:54 PM
Will we see Alex in the game Monday? Or is he done?

Sorry if it's already been discussed.

Done. Coach K said in his DBR interview with Bob Harris that Alex is " no longer with the team".

Henderson
12-12-2013, 06:41 PM
Done. Coach K said in his DBR interview with Bob Harris that Alex is " no longer with the team".

Anything else would be a little weird, wouldn't it? Like a guy resigning from an investment bank and being asked to make the big client presentation the following week. Heck, if he were an investment banker, he'd have been escorted out of the building by security and his locker contents sent to him in a box.

Instead, this will be handled the right way. But it would be awkward for him to stay even to practice now.

Ichabod Drain
12-12-2013, 07:15 PM
Anything else would be a little weird, wouldn't it? Like a guy resigning from an investment bank and being asked to make the big client presentation the following week. Heck, if he were an investment banker, he'd have been escorted out of the building by security and his locker contents sent to him in a box.

Instead, this will be handled the right way. But it would be awkward for him to stay even to practice now.

Eh... Murphy would more likely be making coffee while Jabari gives the presentation.

Orange&BlackSheep
12-12-2013, 07:22 PM
Anything else would be a little weird, wouldn't it? Like a guy resigning from an investment bank and being asked to make the big client presentation the following week. Heck, if he were an investment banker, he'd have been escorted out of the building by security and his locker contents sent to him in a box.

Instead, this will be handled the right way. But it would be awkward for him to stay even to practice now.

that the clock on his beginning to play starts earlier once he stops playing. By sitting out the last half of the season, can he sit out the first half and play the next Spring?

grad_devil
12-12-2013, 07:43 PM
that the clock on his beginning to play starts earlier once he stops playing. By sitting out the last half of the season, can he sit out the first half and play the next Spring?

Since he'll be a mid-year transfer, he's eligible to compete after completing a "year in residence", which is defined (14.02.15.1) as "..two full semesters..".

The transfer legislation states:


14.5.1 Residence requirement—General Principle. A student who transfers (see Bylaw 14.5.2) to
a member institution from any collegiate institution is required to complete one full academic year of residence
(see Bylaw 14.02.15) at the certifying institution before being eligible to compete for or to receive travel expenses
from the member institution (see Bylaw 16.8.1), unless the student satisfies the applicable transfer requirements
or qualifies for an exception as set forth in this bylaw.

Ain't NCAA legislation fun?

I just began serving a term on the NCAA Legislation Committee for Division II. Imagine wading through this stuff for three days straight. It's quite a blast.

There's a reason I went to graduate school for something other than law :)

Clay Feet POF
12-12-2013, 07:50 PM
Is there a likely Murphy...Collins connection

johnb
12-12-2013, 09:14 PM
Is there a likely Murphy...Collins connection

several DBR posters have Murphy moving to Chicago in January.

It's not clear whether Alex or Chris got the memo.

Furniture
12-13-2013, 03:59 AM
Murphy saying goodbye and thanking the fans..
https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexMurphy5

MCFinARL
12-13-2013, 10:10 AM
Murphy saying goodbye and thanking the fans..
https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexMurphy5

Classy. By all accounts Alex seems like a nice kid, hope the best for him.

Kfanarmy
12-13-2013, 11:37 AM
I have been thinking about this for a while now but if I look back and reflect about Murph I think the following: a young man playing few minutes, defending running ahead planting himself in the corner and hardly getting the ball, just leaning forward with his arms out but never, or hardly ever getting the ball. In other words I don't feel he was given much of a chance to gain confidence. That's my feeling..... I also remember one fabulous dunk! It's a shame!


Too bad about Alex; he seems like a good kid, but I think it probably makes sense from his perspective. You can't blame him, in a way, for wanting more playing time and I'm sure he saw the handwriting on the wall that he was not going to get much time this year or maybe even next year at Duke. It does make you realize the depth and quality of Duke recruits when a top 20 high school player (and there may be some question whether or not Alex should have been ranked that high in HS) can not get much PT at Duke. I realize Coach K does not make any promises to recruits about playing time or starting, but I'm sure Alex and his family thought he would have a big role at Duke when he was being recruited and decided to come to Duke. I also wonder what Alex was thinking this year when Duke played Arizona and Michigan. Two of his high school teammates, Nick Stauskas and Kaleb Tarczewski, were starting and playing significant minutes for those top top Div. 1 teams. It is my understanding that Alex WAS the basketball stud on that high school team. I believe he was recruited very hard by Duke and I'm sure it is difficult for any recruit to turn down Duke, especially if they think they will play a major role on the team.....

As a fan, one of the things that I've always admired about this program, was the quality of the TEAMS that were on the floor. In large part they have blended a nucleus of very talented upper classmen; who've been molded and developed into savy team players; with very talented younger players recruited to fill team needs, with the expectation that it may take time to begin to reach their potential. The exception, where one is ready as a freshman to contribute right away being more of a welcome surprise than the expectation. I'm concerned that this team concept, where you recruit into what you want to do and adjust as players develop, may be dying at Duke - that Calipari's one national championship and fans clamoring for immediate gratification has enticed the staff to go after these one-and-dones, recruiting the exceptional talent on top of the merely very talented guy who has dedicated himself and his eligibility into the team.

I note people implying that because some transferred player never quite reached anticipated potential that the player must not have been what Duke thought he would be after all. I think that is wrong headed. Players develop within a team at different rates and, as they mature and gain greater playing time, their skills contribute more and more to the team. I suspect that this process is arrested when a player transfers, and while it may not be completely like starting over, transferring into a new team with different players, different coaches, and different schemes creates serious delays in player development. Even in the NBA, transfers often take a year to effectively fit in a new system. Within the context of a limited number of years college eligibility, a transfer probably precludes a player from reaching full potential within his collegiate years. It isn't necessarily that the player misjudged his ability or wouldn’t have been a great player had he been at one university for his playing career.

I really doubt that coaches were out on the recruiting trail telling Murphy "come to Duke and while you're a highly ranked prospect, if we get a chance to recruit someone better after you sign, we'll go after that guy and leave you on the bench." I don't think it is right to recruit to essentially kick guys off the team who have been committed. Many on this board were opining a couple of years ago that Calipari was throwing some players under the bus, by making them transfer so that he could bring the next star in; and that he was doing so because he couldn't coach. I certainly am not saying Coach K can't coach, but am wondering if recruiting these stars who won't be around in a year doesn’t reflect a change in heart that a team can’t beat a collection of stars…an unfortunate lesson of coaching Team USA? I totally loved the story of Duke's last national championship, which was won with some luck and an incredible amount of team effort. I hate to think kids may be being sold down the river with the desire to get back there as soon as possible, avoiding all that team business and in the process losing much of what the Duke Basketball brand meant to me.

CDu
12-13-2013, 11:58 AM
I have been thinking about this for a while now but if I look back and reflect about Murph I think the following: a young man playing few minutes, defending running ahead planting himself in the corner and hardly getting the ball, just leaning forward with his arms out but never, or hardly ever getting the ball. In other words I don't feel he was given much of a chance to gain confidence. That's my feeling..... I also remember one fabulous dunk! It's a shame!

I think he was given lots of chances. In each of his first two years on campus, we had plenty of uncertainty at SF. Coach K discussed in each of those years the possibility of Murphy starting at SF. Yet as a true freshman he was beaten out in practice by Dawkins (the better shooter), Rivers (the lead scorer), and Thornton (the better defender), and so he decided to redshirt. As a redshirt freshman he was beaten out by Thornton, Sulaimon, and Jefferson (who played some SF last year in addition to PF). And this year, Hood, Parker and Jones arrived and Dawkins returned, which left no available minutes at SF. And we just landed a top-10 recruit at SF, so (with Jones returning) he'd probably be stuck as a backup PF as a redshirt junior.

Sure - he hasn't gotten many in-game opportunities. But a big part of that is that he just wasn't as ready as our other options each year. Coach K isn't in the habit of rewarding playing time to guys who don't prove it in practice first, and apparently others were proving more in practice than Murphy.

I have nothing negative to say about Murphy. He seems like a good kid. There is some talent there. But he is too far down on the depth chart with this year's team, and he would have been pretty far down the depth chart next year too. You can only expect so many top-50 recruits to be willing to sit the bench for 4 years. Murphy stuck around for 2.5, and seemed to really like Duke. But he wasn't going to play much, so I can't fault him for wanting to go elsewhere and get the chance to actually play.

Troublemaker
12-13-2013, 11:58 AM
I totally loved the story of Duke's last national championship, which was won with some luck and an incredible amount of team effort. I hate to think kids may be being sold down the river with the desire to get back there as soon as possible, avoiding all that team business and in the process losing much of what the Duke Basketball brand meant to me.

Kfanarmy - recall that the 2010 national championship team had a pre-season transfer (Elliott Williams) and a mid-season transfer (Olek Czyz), and there were no 1-and-dones on that team. Transfers are just going to happen to college basketball programs, just like they happen to football programs, just like regular student (non-athlete) college transfers occur. Just like job quittings/dismissals occur. Just like dating breakups occur, just like divorces occur. These things are just part of life in general. For the most part, Duke basketball transfers happen more amicably than the rest of the things I mentioned, with Alex Murphy's transfer being no exception.

Kfanarmy
12-13-2013, 12:28 PM
Kfanarmy - recall that the 2010 national championship team had a pre-season transfer (Elliott Williams) and a mid-season transfer (Olek Czyz), and there were no 1-and-dones on that team.... Trouble; I realize there were transfers off of that team, but as I recall Elliot's was for personal reasons; the team that remained was made up of multi-year players who had/continued to work and grow in the system. I don't think the coaching staff should be looking to generate transfers by recruiting over the players they already have...and I think that is what Murphy has just experienced, even if he was able to remain amicable about it. What is, isn't necessarily what ought to be.

johnb
12-13-2013, 12:37 PM
I suspect that ... transferring into a new team with different players, different coaches, and different schemes creates serious delays in player development.

If Rodney has been seriously delayed, I look forward to the second half of the season



I really doubt that coaches were out on the recruiting trail telling Murphy "come to Duke and while you're a highly ranked prospect, if we get a chance to recruit someone better after you sign, we'll go after that guy and leave you on the bench." I don't think it is right to recruit to essentially kick guys off the team who have been committed. Many on this board were opining a couple of years ago that Calipari was throwing some players under the bus, by making them transfer .... am wondering if recruiting these stars who won't be around in a year doesn’t reflect a change in heart that a team can’t beat a collection of stars…an unfortunate lesson of coaching Team USA? I totally loved the story of Duke's last national championship, which was won with some luck and an incredible amount of team effort. I hate to think kids may be being sold down the river ...and in the process losing much of what the Duke Basketball brand meant to me.

Having your scholarship pulled is not the same as playing behind Jabari Parker.

Recruiting top ten players has not been a recent strategy or one that is especially controversial. I really don't think there is a basketball program in the country which would turn have turned down guys like Kyrie, Jabari, or Jahlil even though none would be likely to graduate with his class. Working with Team USA brought K into contact with some of the greatest basketball players in the world, and it might have motivated him to try even harder to get that type of athlete onto his Duke team, but I think the bigger effect is that hanging with Kobe brought him the sort of street cred that allowed him to recruit the future Kobes. And if the current rules had been in effect, I have no doubt that we wouldn't have recruited the original Kobe for his one-year college experience...

Surely Coach has long known that a well-coached team of 5 star players beats a well-coached team of 4 star players. Not always (we do lose to non-elite teams occasionally), but that's the way to bet. And any idea that we won in 2010 with a bunch of aw shucks second tier talent a la Hoosiers missed the fact that our guys had been highly recruited in high school and that our top guys stayed in college at least partly because they were judged to be (just) outside of the lottery.

Kfanarmy
12-13-2013, 01:15 PM
If Rodney has been seriously delayed, I look forward to the second half of the season



Having your scholarship pulled is not the same as playing behind Jabari Parker.

Recruiting top ten players has not been a recent strategy or one that is especially controversial. I really don't think there is a basketball program in the country which would turn have turned down guys like Kyrie, Jabari, or Jahlil even though none would be likely to graduate with his class. Working with Team USA brought K into contact with some of the greatest basketball players in the world, and it might have motivated him to try even harder to get that type of athlete onto his Duke team, but I think the bigger effect is that hanging with Kobe brought him the sort of street cred that allowed him to recruit the future Kobes. And if the current rules had been in effect, I have no doubt that we wouldn't have recruited the original Kobe for his one-year college experience...

Surely Coach has long known that a well-coached team of 5 star players beats a well-coached team of 4 star players. Not always (we do lose to non-elite teams occasionally), but that's the way to bet. And any idea that we won in 2010 with a bunch of aw shucks second tier talent a la Hoosiers missed the fact that our guys had been highly recruited in high school and that our top guys stayed in college at least partly because they were judged to be (just) outside of the lottery.

While I recognize Rodney's exceptional talents...as I recall he sat out a year. Even his development has been delayed. I think you disprove your own point.

I recognize everyone wants top ten talent. Duke always has elite talent, the change may be in a desire to hit the lottery with the superstars assuming they'll get you there this year and dump the Top tier talent already sitting on the bench, who was there last year, is there this year, and potentially is your best bet to winning next year.

Des Esseintes
12-13-2013, 02:38 PM
While I recognize Rodney's exceptional talents...as I recall he sat out a year. Even his development has been delayed. I think you disprove your own point.

I recognize everyone wants top ten talent. Duke always has elite talent, the change may be in a desire to hit the lottery with the superstars assuming they'll get you there this year and dump the Top tier talent already sitting on the bench, who was there last year, is there this year, and potentially is your best bet to winning next year.

I mean, totally. I think back to last year's team who had big-heart veterans like Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston, guys who weren't necessarily the highest-rated recruits but were going to put their time in and give the program everything they had. Now we are in this new place where those guys are recruited over and kicked to the curb, and I find it disturbing. Don't get me wrong: I love the preponderance of talent we have on the court these days. I guess I just wish we had guys like Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston to cheer for on this year's team. Anyone else long for the old days?

Bay Area Duke Fan
12-13-2013, 05:21 PM
I mean, totally. I think back to last year's team who had big-heart veterans like Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston, guys who weren't necessarily the highest-rated recruits but were going to put their time in and give the program everything they had. Now we are in this new place where those guys are recruited over and kicked to the curb, and I find it disturbing. Don't get me wrong: I love the preponderance of talent we have on the court these days. I guess I just wish we had guys like Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston to cheer for on this year's team. Anyone else long for the old days?

We do have Tyler and Josh to cheer for on this year's team.

pfrduke
12-13-2013, 05:35 PM
We do have Tyler and Josh to cheer for on this year's team.

Nothing makes me smile reading this board quite so much as when satire sails entirely over someone's head.

OldPhiKap
12-13-2013, 05:37 PM
Murph played more mpg as a freshman than Josh did. Josh worked hard, found a niche, and stuck with it.

Murphy seems like a good kid, glad he was part of the team. Sincerest best of luck in the future.

tommy
12-13-2013, 06:12 PM
Trouble; I realize there were transfers off of that team, but as I recall Elliot's was for personal reasons; the team that remained was made up of multi-year players who had/continued to work and grow in the system. I don't think the coaching staff should be looking to generate transfers by recruiting over the players they already have...and I think that is what Murphy has just experienced, even if he was able to remain amicable about it. What is, isn't necessarily what ought to be.

The coaches aren't "looking to generate transfers." The coaches are looking to generate the best possible team they can each year. They're looking to generate competition, so as to maximize the chances of putting together an excellent team.

Nobody at Duke is guaranteed playing time. Each and every one of them has to work for it; they all have to compete for it, and they know that coming into the program. If they want guarantees, they are politely told to seek such guarantees elsewhere. See: Humphries, Kris. But most of them relish that challenge. When positions are competed for, sometimes there is a clear winner and clear loser, and other times playing time is split in one manner or another. That's just the way it is. Sometimes kids, when they are recruited, overestimate their ability to withstand the challenge of other excellent players, and think they're going to win those competitions for playing time that they know are forthcoming. Sometimes, like in Alex's case, they are simply wrong in that belief. Doesn't make him wrong to want to transfer, and doesn't make the coaching staff wrong for recruiting and then playing the best players possible, and the players that best fit into the team concept and the way the staff wants the team to play.

Des Esseintes
12-13-2013, 07:03 PM
The coaches aren't "looking to generate transfers." The coaches are looking to generate the best possible team they can each year. They're looking to generate competition, so as to maximize the chances of putting together an excellent team.

Nobody at Duke is guaranteed playing time. Each and every one of them has to work for it; they all have to compete for it, and they know that coming into the program. If they want guarantees, they are politely told to seek such guarantees elsewhere. See: Humphries, Kris. But most of them relish that challenge. When positions are competed for, sometimes there is a clear winner and clear loser, and other times playing time is split in one manner or another. That's just the way it is. Sometimes kids, when they are recruited, overestimate their ability to withstand the challenge of other excellent players, and think they're going to win those competitions for playing time that they know are forthcoming. Sometimes, like in Alex's case, they are simply wrong in that belief. Doesn't make him wrong to want to transfer, and doesn't make the coaching staff wrong for recruiting and then playing the best players possible, and the players that best fit into the team concept and the way the staff wants the team to play.

A third-year tenth man has just transferred, saying he has nothing but good feelings for Duke and will consider his teammates his "brothers forever." If now is not the time for a coach to take a long look in the mirror and say, "What I do is morally disgusting. I must change my entire recruiting strategy," then when is that time? I ask you.

azzefkram
12-13-2013, 08:29 PM
A third-year tenth man has just transferred, saying he has nothing but good feelings for Duke and will consider his teammates his "brothers forever." If now is not the time for a coach to take a long look in the mirror and say, "What I do is morally disgusting. I must change my entire recruiting strategy," then when is that time? I ask you.

Easy there, sarcasm man :D

53n206
12-13-2013, 10:02 PM
I hope he transfers to a school where he has an opportunity to enjoy playing, but, as important , prepares him for after basketball life with the options a degree from Duke affords. Best to Alex, and many thanks for coming to us and giving his best.

Kfanarmy
12-15-2013, 10:38 PM
A third-year tenth man has just transferred, saying he has nothing but good feelings for Duke and will consider his teammates his "brothers forever." If now is not the time for a coach to take a long look in the mirror and say, "What I do is morally disgusting. I must change my entire recruiting strategy," then when is that time? I ask you.

Clearly Murphy overestimated his skills and has no hidden feelings what with forcing Duke to recruit him off the court at the Y as an unranked prospect to begin with. Obviously nothing has changed at Duke or you would see a trail of one and dones like Irving, Rivers, Parker, Okafor, Jones...would never happen.

Kedsy
12-15-2013, 11:21 PM
Clearly Murphy overestimated his skills and has no hidden feelings what with forcing Duke to recruit him off the court at the Y as an unranked prospect to begin with. Obviously nothing has changed at Duke or you would see a trail of one and dones like Irving, Rivers, Parker, Okafor, Jones...would never happen.

Just my opinion, but Mr. Esseintes is better at clever, coherent sarcasm than you are.

bob blue devil
12-16-2013, 05:28 AM
Just my opinion, but Mr. Esseintes is better at clever, coherent sarcasm than you are.

Wait, what? Is that what I read there?

Duke basketball is what it is - an elite basketball program. If your #1 concern is assured playing time, then you probably go somewhere else. If you want to want a great shot at being part of one of the best teams in the country than it could be a good fit. I think Alex wanted to be part of an elite program, but after 3+ years misses playing time. Completely understandable and we wish him well. But to compromise Duke's status as an elite program would be a disservice to all the kids on the team that have signed up to be in the hunt for championships, and have put the security of their own playing times at risk to get it.

We all love seeing these kids grow and succeed, but that's a story for us the fans. Do you think Tyler, Quinn, and Andre, just to name a few, are complaining about having a Jabari Parker on this team? Of course not, those boys signed up for winning.

superdave
12-18-2013, 08:29 AM
Jeff Borzello ‏@jeffborzello 3m
Duke transfer Alex Murphy makes his decision today. Florida has been the favorite since he left the Blue Devils. Hasn't changed.

Billy Dat
12-18-2013, 08:42 AM
Jeff Borzello ‏@jeffborzello 3m
Duke transfer Alex Murphy makes his decision today. Florida has been the favorite since he left the Blue Devils. Hasn't changed.

Would he get to start practicing with the team right away? That seems like it would be a good situation, although it does surprise me that more guys in Alex's shoes don't try and find a slightly more mid-major style program where they can be "the guy". Imagine how he could be showcased at a place like Davidson or Belmont, playing for coaches every bit as good as the top dogs? Because of his brother, he not only knows the UF program but also many of the players so there is a high degree of comfort. I am sure he'll do really well there.

flyingdutchdevil
12-18-2013, 09:00 AM
Would he get to start practicing with the team right away? That seems like it would be a good situation, although it does surprise me that more guys in Alex's shoes don't try and find a slightly more mid-major style program where they can be "the guy". Imagine how he could be showcased at a place like Davidson or Belmont, playing for coaches every bit as good as the top dogs? Because of his brother, he not only knows the UF program but also many of the players so there is a high degree of comfort. I am sure he'll do really well there.

IMO, I'm not sure that's what Robocop is seeking. By all accounts, it seems like Robocop is transferring because of playing time, which is an absolutely legitimate reason. When he came to Duke, he redshirted based on advice from the coaching staff, which he accepted. If he wanted to "be the man," he could have gone to a mid-major and started all 4 years. Instead, he decided to slowly develop his game with the intention of playing a key role for a major program. I get it - a lot of players, like our very own Thornton, Hairston, and many others - bought into that. I see the two main differences between Hairston & Co and Robocop as Hairston having a) gained the trust of Coach K to gain playing time and b) patience that these players have exhibited and are now seeing an increase in playing time towards the end of their careers.

Best of luck to Robocop. I hope he joins a winning program and gets that playing time.

Sidenote: I'm going to miss the Robocop nickname.

Newton_14
12-18-2013, 09:14 AM
IMO, I'm not sure that's what Robocop is seeking. By all accounts, it seems like Robocop is transferring because of playing time, which is an absolutely legitimate reason. When he came to Duke, he redshirted based on advice from the coaching staff, which he accepted. If he wanted to "be the man," he could have gone to a mid-major and started all 4 years. Instead, he decided to slowly develop his game with the intention of playing a key role for a major program. I get it - a lot of players, like our very own Thornton, Hairston, and many others - bought into that. I see the two main differences between Hairston & Co and Robocop as Hairston having a) gained the trust of Coach K to gain playing time and b) patience that these players have exhibited and are now seeing an increase in playing time towards the end of their careers.

Best of luck to Robocop. I hope he joins a winning program and gets that playing time.

Sidenote: I'm going to miss the Robocop nickname.

Actually the bold part is not true. Alex asked for the redshirt after sitting out due to the concussion. Had he not suffered the injury he very likely would have played in that first regular season game and then would not have been able to redshirt. The staff actually wanted him to play, but he felt he was not ready (he came a year early after reclassifying). There was an article that covered all of this. I will try to dig it up and post the link.

flyingdutchdevil
12-18-2013, 09:16 AM
Actually the bold part is not true. Alex asked for the redshirt after sitting out due to the concussion. Had he not suffered the injury he very likely would have played in that first regular season game and then would not have been able to redshirt. The staff actually wanted him to play, but he felt he was not ready (he came a year early after reclassifying). There was an article that covered all of this. I will try to dig it up and post the link.

Thanks for the clarification. But I think that even furthers my point that Alex wanted to take the time to develop so he could be a part of a winning program. As a redshirt sophomore / true junior, I think he felt he was ready for playing time. When this didn't turn out to be the case, he decided to transfer.

GGLC
12-18-2013, 09:48 AM
Will be interesting to see how much playing time he gets for the Gators. What does their wing position look like over the next two years?

Dev11
12-18-2013, 10:05 AM
Borzello and Goodman are both now reporting that Alex Murphy is headed to Florida. Good luck to him.

Billy Dat
12-18-2013, 10:06 AM
Will be interesting to see how much playing time he gets for the Gators. What does their wing position look like over the next two years?

Jeff Goodman ‏@GoodmanESPN 7m
Gators lose Patric Young and Will Yeguete up front -- and also Wilbekin and Prather. Opportunity is there for Murphy to get playing time.

tommy
12-18-2013, 10:32 AM
It's official. Murphy to Florida.

flyingdutchdevil
12-18-2013, 10:33 AM
It's official. Murphy to Florida.

Good for Robocop. I hope he succeeds there. Seems like a great kid on all ends. And, as much as DBR rips on Donovan, he's a good guy and better coach.

timmy c
12-18-2013, 11:00 AM
Congrats to Alex. I hope it's an easy transition that leads to future success for him.

OldPhiKap
12-18-2013, 11:01 AM
Congratulations to Murph, I wish him a good career and a wonderful life. Thanks for being part of the family, sorry it is ending earlier than anticipated.

Furniture
12-18-2013, 11:14 AM
"According to Gainsville Sun reporter Kevin Brockway, Murphy plans to enroll in January and apply for a waiver that would allow him to play immediately. Concussion issues contributed to why he redshirted as a Duke freshman in 2011-12"

http://www.fayobserver.com/blogs/sports/acc_basketball/article_7f1e2002-6802-11e3-8423-001a4bcf6878.html?mode=jqm

It's official, I'm a Florida Gator! I'm more than excited and can't wait to get down to Gainesville soon!!!

— Alex Murphy (@AlexMurphy5) December 18, 2013

Billy Dat
12-18-2013, 11:17 AM
According to Jeff Goodman's ESPN write-up, he also looked at smaller schools closer to home:
Rhode Island and Danny Hurley
Providence
Northeastern

So he did consider being a potentially big fish in a comparatively smaller pond, of course we don't know how seriously he took it.

I hope he gets some serious PT for Florida.

sagegrouse
12-18-2013, 11:22 AM
According to Jeff Goodman's ESPN write-up, he also looked at smaller schools closer to home:
Rhode Island and Danny Hurley
Providence
Northeastern

So he did consider being a potentially big fish in a comparatively smaller pond, of course we don't know how seriously he took it.

I hope he gets some serious PT for Florida.

Nothing like a campus tour in December. Lessee... Kingston, RI; Boston, MA; Providence, RI; Gainesville, FL. Tough choice. :rolleyes:

sage

mattman91
12-18-2013, 11:28 AM
Way to go, Alex. I wish him all the success at Florida.

I actually like Donovan, he reminds me of an Italian mobster.

Furniture
12-18-2013, 11:47 AM
Can he really get a waiver?

Dukehky
12-18-2013, 11:53 AM
Can he really get a waiver?

Who knows. It's a total crap shoot with the NCAA. I despise that organization. If he is eligible to play right away, he won't see a lick of time this year, but I hope he does well. Murphy's do well at Florida traditionally.

Billy Dat
12-18-2013, 11:56 AM
Nothing like a campus tour in December. Lessee... Kingston, RI; Boston, MA; Providence, RI; Gainesville, FL. Tough choice. :rolleyes:

sage

Good call, plus, he grew up in Rhode Island so those relatively tame Durham winters might have softened him up.

Newton_14
12-18-2013, 12:53 PM
I think the waiver is to allow him to play all of next year rather than sitting out the first semester. There is no process that would allow him to play this season

Furniture
12-18-2013, 04:14 PM
I think the waiver is to allow him to play all of next year rather than sitting out the first semester. There is no process that would allow him to play this season

That would make more sense!

kAzE
12-18-2013, 08:25 PM
Great coach, great program, and a great fit. I'm ecstatic for the guy, and I hope he can play next year. It'll be fun to watch him kick UK's butt in the future.

DU82
12-18-2013, 08:37 PM
I think the waiver is to allow him to play all of next year rather than sitting out the first semester. There is no process that would allow him to play this season

I would expect the waiver to be that he has 2 1/2 years remaining to play, rather than 1 1/2. (six years to play 8 semesters/4 seasons, instead of 5 years.) If he was red-shirted due to injury (the concussion) then he could ask for a medical waiver.

freedevil
12-19-2013, 09:32 AM
I would expect the waiver to be that he has 2 1/2 years remaining to play, rather than 1 1/2. (six years to play 8 semesters/4 seasons, instead of 5 years.) If he was red-shirted due to injury (the concussion) then he could ask for a medical waiver.

If true and possible, I really hope he gets to play for the 2.5 years.

HaveFunExpectToWin
12-19-2013, 10:40 AM
Great coach, great program, and a great fit. I'm ecstatic for the guy, and I hope he can play next year. It'll be fun to watch him kick UK's butt in the future.

Yes, agreed. Although, I think it'll be ok if he has an off night when visiting Nashville.

jamesfrommaiden
12-19-2013, 12:43 PM
I wish Alex all the best. He is a good young man and I hope he has alot of success at Florida.

cwarner62
12-19-2013, 05:40 PM
Hi all. I've been lurking here for a few years but had never set up an account. Since I'm a Gator and a Duke fan, I figured this would be a good topic for my first post though. I grew up a Duke fan since I was 7 and fell in love with the Johnny Dawkins / Mark Alarie teams and even did a summer program at Duke in middle school but I went to UF for undergrad and grad school and am still here now working for UF!

Anyway, I was sad to see Alex leave Duke but as soon as he announced his transfer, I was hoping he'd come down to UF - I think it'll be a perfect fit for him! We are losing Pat Young, Will Yeguette, and Casey Prather, and with the possibility of Chris Walker being a 0.5 and done, it was possible that the only guys on our roster taller than 6'6 next year would have been Dorian Finney-Smith and incoming Fr Devin Robinson (6'8, 190). So Alex will definitely have a chance to get a lot of minutes right away and fills a big need for us. His brother Erik took a while to develop as well and it wasn't until midway through his Jr year that it really clicked for him, much like Chandler Parsons a couple years earlier, and also Casey Prather (the light didn't turn on for him until the SEC tourney last year and he's been our breakout star this season). So I'm hopeful that Alex will also be a late bloomer and find his game down here. He'll continue to get great coaching as Billy D is IMO one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the country, both on and off the court, whose name doesn't begin with a Krz lol!

I guess I'll be one of the few people to get to see him play in person on both teams as I saw him log a couple minutes against FAU when I visited one of my best friends who is getting his MBA at Duke - that was the 2nd game I've gotten to see at Cameron, the first being that awesome comeback against UNC in 2011 led by Nolan and Seth!

Let's Go Duke tonight! Hoping my teams can make it 2/2 in MSG this week! And I'm sure we can all look forward to watching Alex beat Kentucky a couple times next year :)

jv001
12-19-2013, 06:03 PM
Hi all. I've been lurking here for a few years but had never set up an account. Since I'm a Gator and a Duke fan, I figured this would be a good topic for my first post though. I grew up a Duke fan since I was 7 and fell in love with the Johnny Dawkins / Mark Alarie teams and even did a summer program at Duke in middle school but I went to UF for undergrad and grad school and am still here now working for UF!

Anyway, I was sad to see Alex leave Duke but as soon as he announced his transfer, I was hoping he'd come down to UF - I think it'll be a perfect fit for him! We are losing Pat Young, Will Yeguette, and Casey Prather, and with the possibility of Chris Walker being a 0.5 and done, it was possible that the only guys on our roster taller than 6'6 next year would have been Dorian Finney-Smith and incoming Fr Devin Robinson (6'8, 190). So Alex will definitely have a chance to get a lot of minutes right away and fills a big need for us. His brother Erik took a while to develop as well and it wasn't until midway through his Jr year that it really clicked for him, much like Chandler Parsons a couple years earlier, and also Casey Prather (the light didn't turn on for him until the SEC tourney last year and he's been our breakout star this season). So I'm hopeful that Alex will also be a late bloomer and find his game down here. He'll continue to get great coaching as Billy D is IMO one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the country, both on and off the court, whose name doesn't begin with a Krz lol!

I guess I'll be one of the few people to get to see him play in person on both teams as I saw him log a couple minutes against FAU when I visited one of my best friends who is getting his MBA at Duke - that was the 2nd game I've gotten to see at Cameron, the first being that awesome comeback against UNC in 2011 led by Nolan and Seth!

Let's Go Duke tonight! Hoping my teams can make it 2/2 in MSG this week! And I'm sure we can all look forward to watching Alex beat Kentucky a couple times next year :)

Good post. Hope to see you here more often. Good luck to Alex as a Gator. GoDuke!

Ggallagher
01-25-2014, 05:07 PM
Just caught the end of the Florida-Tennessee game. I only got two or three quick looks, but it sure looked like Alex was suited up sitting on the bench. I was thinking Rodney was limited from doing anything like that last year.
It also looks like it was a pretty good game NOT to see. I think Tennessee finished with 35 points.
Oops, I stand corrected, Tennessee got hot at the end and had 41 points

CDu
01-25-2014, 05:17 PM
Just caught the end of the Florida-Tennessee game. I only got two or three quick looks, but it sure looked like Alex was suited up sitting on the bench. I was thinking Rodney was limited from doing anything like that last year.
It also looks like it was a pretty good game NOT to see. I think Tennessee finished with 35 points.
Oops, I stand corrected, Tennessee got hot at the end and had 41 points

Was it a UF home game? If so, that is fine.

Ggallagher
01-25-2014, 05:17 PM
Was it a UF home game? If so, that is fine.

Yep, it was a home game - thanks.

fgb
01-25-2014, 06:26 PM
i've been thinking about murphy a lot the last couple of weeks. when he first announced that he was transferring, i was only mildly disappointed--i loved the guy, but i understood the decision. recently, though, i feel really sad that he didn't stick it out. with k's new approach, going deep into the bench, i really think alex would have been able to grow into a meaningful role with this year's team. it would have been great to watch him emerge as a player, as it's great watching marshall emerging now.

Ggallagher
01-25-2014, 07:08 PM
i've been thinking about murphy a lot the last couple of weeks. when he first announced that he was transferring, i was only mildly disappointed--i loved the guy, but i understood the decision. recently, though, i feel really sad that he didn't stick it out. with k's new approach, going deep into the bench, i really think alex would have been able to grow into a meaningful role with this year's team. it would have been great to watch him emerge as a player, as it's great watching marshall emerging now.

When I was checking up on the Florida game, I found this nice interview with Alex on the Gators web site

http://florida.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1589394&PT=4&PR=2

OldPhiKap
01-25-2014, 07:26 PM
When I was checking up on the Florida game, I found this nice interview with Alex on the Gators web site

http://florida.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1589394&PT=4&PR=2

Best of luck to Alex!