MBB: Arizona 72, Duke 66 Post-Game Thread

[JBDuke]

Put your post-game thoughts here.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

refs got us

[uh_no]

refs got us

guess they forced us into some of those bad turnovers and botched defensive switches?

or was it the rebounds they forced us to miss....or maybe they duped jabari into missing shots

In my opinion the three biggest issues

1) the inability to produce good shots consistently on one end, leading to turnovers and missed shots...jabari, as good as he is, was a bit of a black hole...with his amount of shots, to have 1 assist is absurd...the whole team was guilty of not passing effectively all game...so much dribbling and driving...so we got killed when we ran into their big guys....getting them lots of blocks, lots of turnovers, and us lots of missed shots.

2) the failure of the defense to execute switches appropriately, often resulting from or resulting in a lack of stopping the ball handler at the perimeter...it was layup/dunk city during their big run in the second half

3) failure to rebound (size difference?)

[Gthoma2a]

refs got us

If only it were that simple. They played better than us. We aren't a team yet. K said it, and truer words have not been spoken. We are a group of individuals, at the moment. I'd like to see us go to the bench more. We could discover there's some talent there or, at least, send a message to the starters.

If I had a forum with them, I would point out that the best play of the game was an assist.

[luburch]

Football school with a basketball problem.

[NYBri]

In the lead with 7 minutes left in this game and the Kansas game. Time to go to finishing school.

[Dukeface88]

refs got us

I disagree. I think this game was 100% a result of guys trying to do everything by themselves, and playing as part of the team. Especially on offense. You can't play 1 on 5 and expect to win, and that's what we did all night. I mean, even Tyler was trying to drive into like 3 defenders by himself. That should not happen on any possession, ever.

[JetpackJesus]

refs got us

While the refs were terrible in the second half, so was Duke. They didn't deserve to win, but it's certainly frustrating because they still could have won.

I will say that Arizona is going to have a great defense this year if fouling continues to be legal for them.

[NashvilleDevil]

It's November. They will be playing much better in march.

[FerryFor50]

I liked the strategy of driving, but that only works when you can draw fouls. Zona played good defense, but got away with a TON of contact on drives that I am still wondering how they got away with. Duke shot 18 FTs despite driving regularly. Zona shot 26 FTs.

We went from whistle fest against KU to "letting them play" against Zona. Good times.

[18258]

Lol, Dont Blame it On The Refs, Soon As they Figure Out How To Play D And Rebound They'll Be good

[BD80]

At least this SHOULD end the pleas for us to play zone.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Arizona is a legit final four team. Nice balance and smart guard play. No shame losing a tight one to them early in the season.

I thought Parker got tired those last ten minutes and was a step off every play. He had a lot more energy that first half. He's going to have to learn to pace himself better and somebody else is going to have to step it up. Hood is showing me he can score, but I'm waiting on seeing him help Parker lead.

[kAzE]

Duke football: 9-2

Duke basketball: 6-2

Boy, never thought that would happen!

Still, I believe in this team. We have a number of guys who are playing poorly right now, and these guys haven't yet become anything resembling a cohesive unit. We played selfishly on both sides of the ball tonight. I won't make any judgments either way until we see that happen. Now, if we are still playing like this in January, then it may be time to panic.

[Dukehky]

Firstly, our shooting was terrible the entire game. We couldn't hit anything. Which leads to the question, why didn't Dre get any run at all. Also, I thought Marshall played well in his limited minutes, but we keep the rotation with Amile and Josh? If we're not going to have a scoring threat at the 5, lets have somebody who can at least be tall.

The officiating was horrendous. Our players got hammered every time they drove the lane, no calls. Jabari Parker needs to call the cops because he got raped every single time he touched the ball. They fouled the crap out of him every time down the court. Defensively I didn't think we were bad except for a 7 minute stretch where the game got away, and we were really bad then (hey improvement right!).

Rasheed... man, I'm all for letting a kid play through his slump, but after his first three he did nothing good except get burned on rotations and make bad drives the hoop. Matt played well in the last game, why did he get 2 minutes? All of that talk about K going deep this year is BS, he just said that to make people like us shut up. He's going to do his same 7 man rotation only this time, we have 3 people who can score the ball right now.

Not a good start to the season. McGary very well could have 25/15 if we don't change something up.

I'm furious.

I want to start to start Parker, Hood, Jones, Semi, and Marshall in the next game, just see what the hell happens. We can't play Thornton and Hairston against other teams starting fives. That puts us at 3 on 5 on offense which leads to Parker getting triple teamed like he did tonight. I just do not understand K sometimes. Something tells me I'm just not meant to.

[IBleedBlue]

I disagree. I think this game was 100% a result of guys trying to do everything by themselves, and playing as part of the team. Especially on offense. You can't play 1 on 5 and expect to win, and that's what we did all night.

Couple of things to note:
1. Arizona double teamed parker everytime he touched the ball in the second half. And his outlet passes were non-existent. May be he was trying to do too much.
2. Sulaimon kept slashing in to the paint over and over again and got blocked everytime. Slashing was good but he needs to try and pass to a shooter outside.
3. We need a low post scorer to turn into a legitimate FF team
Arizona is a good team at this point.
We need to find balanced scoring from this team. Hood and Parker won't be able to carry us over top teams like Kansas and Arizona.

Something that I couldn't comprehend: Why didn't we go to our shooters at all in this game? Andre barely got any burn and so did Matt Jones.

[uh_no]

I liked the strategy of driving, but that only works when you can draw fouls. Zona played good defense, but got away with a TON of contact on drives that I am still wondering how they got away with. Duke shot 18 FTs despite driving regularly. Zona shot 26 FTs.

We went from whistle fest against KU to "letting them play" against Zona. Good times.

much of the difference was garbage time

[arnie]

It's November. They will be playing much better in march.

Yes, but so will everyone else. Without size coupled only with good (not great) guard play we aren't going to be world beaters. Top 3 or so in ACC and winning 25 games still a reasonable goal.

[dukelifer]

Duke played well for much of the game. Unfortunately, Zona's size was too much. Duke played better D the last two games, but they are still not very cohesive on Offense. They have not been a team very long and are struggling with better teams. Lots of little things did them in tonight. They needed an A game and only got a B game. Duke will get better but folks need to reset expectations. They are a work in progress and will need to figure it out.

[beach rev]

Let's see. We've lost two games to two teams in the top six in the nation. We've done this starting a freshman and a redshirt-transfer sophomore. Of course, someone will say 'Beach Rev, did you watch the ECU and Vermont games?', to which I will reply 'Indeed, I did.' And in those games, I saw a team that is still learning to play with one another; a team with a very high ceiling...even without a true post player in the rotation. I hate to lose just as much as the rest of you, but it is way too early to acquiesce to our lesser selves and give up on this team. Next play.

[pamtar]

FerryFor50(tag)

My chat went haywire so replying here. Agree/Disagree on Tyler. He's good at what he does, but what he does is not winning us ball games. Its nice to have a floor leader on D but he can't create on offense at all. His M.O. is pass and/or hide in the corner. I like him getting 20 minutes a game, just not in place of Rasheed. I'd be fine with Dre getting a few of his minutes as well. Dude just doesn't have the skills. I hate to say it because I really like his game but dayum.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Just gonna say it once to get it off my chest. Zone was stupid, stupid, stupid. Gave up easiest baskets of the night AND let them take extra time off the clock with no pressure. Learn to defend the high screen... b/c zoning up ain't the answer. Man!

[Bluedog]

It seems like we're doing a lot of 1:1 isolation with Hood, Parker, and occasionally Sulaimon. The other guys clear out and watch them drive to the basket to hopefully score. Arizona did a pretty decent job helping and thus a lot of the drives were into traffic, resulting in really tough shots. Jabari and Hood are good enough that sometimes they still get it to go down, but it seems like we're making things more difficult than they need to be.

I really like when Cook initiates the offense from the top of the perimeter and we get some movement by everybody, including the possibility of an assist. I realize TT and Hairston bring toughness and leadership to the lineup, but when they're on offense, it's really 3 on 5 as the opponent doesn't have to stay close to either of those guys (although I realize TT has hit some key 3's). I really think Sulaimon is going to pick it up, but there were several drives where he just went into so much traffic and forced it up - reminded me of DeMarcus (who I thought was an incredible player for us, but sometimes had a tendency to take very difficult shots). It's hard to pass out of that situation once you commit, but you have to see what the defense is giving you.

I certainly don't think we are a terrible team or that the season is over; not a doomsday scenario to lose to two top 5 teams even if it's early in the season. We have a lot of potential. I liked going to zone for one play just to confuse them, but more than that probably isn't going to be our strength - just need to switch better on D and not give easy layups. And, on offense, I think we're seeing reliance on two guys and everybody else kinda staring in awe. I think Cook actually played a really nice game - would like to see the ball in his hand MORE and either feed Jabari on the block or initiate some motion on the offense. Would be nice to see Dawk/Sulaimon contribute with some 3s and have Hood/Parker continue their aggressive play to drive to the hoop, but if a team is packing it in and they're driving into traffic, have an easy outlet for a shooter for 3. Need some more diversity in our offensive arsenal as it seems like we're reliant on the same two plays. And when Parker's shots aren't falling, we're in trouble (and he took some very difficult shots tonight).

I'm disappointed that we lost, but there are certainly positives to take from that game.

[Ky-Dukie]

I don't understand why we have two point guards in at the same time, for extended minutes.:confused: We will not beat many good teams with Thorton and Hairston getting this many minutes. Just my opinion. Agree or disagree, it's ok.

[NYBri]

Next game.

Michigan @ CIS.

[gocanes0506]

The Offense underperformed tonight. Watching the game it wasn't the length of Arizona that caused it. It was a lack of movement and help on the offensive side. It was way too much 1 on 1 O. Zona would do a great job of help D once the ball went low. No one was there to make an outlet pass to get out of the trap, i.e. no movement on O.

I don't know what it is but teams do a much better job at slowing the ball down on screens that Duke does. Zona looked like they got around screens and looked to get the free curler quicker than Duke did. Im not sure if K has them look more for an open shot on the perimeter when a screen happens and that is why the pass to the curler doesn't happen.

So far this team is underwhelming in big games. I will take losses early over any loss in the Tourney but, the team has some issues putting it all together in a big game.

[KandG]

A lot like the Kansas game. Use your best player to get the other team's key guys in foul trouble, nurse a small lead (and blow opportunities to build a bigger lead) in the first half, get overwhelmed by a better team in the second half once they get their key guys back in. Defense continues to improve, but it leaked at the worst time during Arizona's big game-clinching run.

Jabari still seems to struggle with conditioning late in games…maybe he's being asked to do too much. But the coaching staff is going to have to work on diversifying the offense and maybe expanding the rotation a bit. Way too much one-on-one (either iso-Jabari or iso-Hood or iso-Cook or worst of all, iso-Sheed) and too little ball movement in the second half.

First time in quite a while I can remember K with this much talent, and so much work to do to get the level of the team up where it can be an elite team. When was the last time…2000? (Jason Williams' freshman year) I think he'll get there, but it's going to be a process with a lot of ups and downs in the short term. I wouldn't be surprised to see another loss on Tuesday.

[crf30]

Jabari had an rough shooting night, and seemed a bit careless turning it over sometimes.

Sulaimon couldn't seem to decide if he wanted to be a scoring threat or not.

Amile missed all 3 of his free throws, including one that should have had a second one following it so I'd say he was 0-4.

A couple times they entered the ball to the post to Tarczewski, and we got called for a foul before he even caught the ball. Yet a couple of Jabari's inside baskets the defense was played the exact same way, with no foul call.

Those were the biggest things that stood out to me. Any one of them being different in our favor would have made it a totally different game down the stretch in my opinion.

(This is my first post actually discussing basketball on this board, so yay me.)

[Edouble]

The officiating was horrendous. Our players got hammered every time they drove the lane, no calls. Jabari Parker needs to call the cops because he got raped every single time he touched the ball. They fouled the crap out of him every time down the court. Defensively I didn't think we were bad except for a 7 minute stretch where the game got away, and we were really bad then (hey improvement right!).

This word should really be bleeped out, as curse words are on this forum. Honestly, I can't think of anything less appropriate.

[dukelifer]

This word should really be bleeped out, as curse words are on this forum. Honestly, I can't think of anything less appropriate.

I tend to agree. Many other words can be found

[Furniture]

Firstly, our shooting was terrible the entire game. We couldn't hit anything. Which leads to the question, why didn't Dre get any run at all. Also, I thought Marshall played well in his limited minutes, but we keep the rotation with Amile and Josh? If we're not going to have a scoring threat at the 5, lets have somebody who can at least be tall.

The officiating was horrendous. Our players got hammered every time they drove the lane, no calls. Jabari Parker needs to call the cops because he got raped every single time he touched the ball. They fouled the crap out of him every time down the court. Defensively I didn't think we were bad except for a 7 minute stretch where the game got away, and we were really bad then (hey improvement right!).

Rasheed... man, I'm all for letting a kid play through his slump, but after his first three he did nothing good except get burned on rotations and make bad drives the hoop. Matt played well in the last game, why did he get 2 minutes? All of that talk about K going deep this year is BS, he just said that to make people like us shut up. He's going to do his same 7 man rotation only this time, we have 3 people who can score the ball right now.

Not a good start to the season. McGary very well could have 25/15 if we don't change something up.

I'm furious.

I want to start to start Parker, Hood, Jones, Semi, and Marshall in the next game, just see what the hell happens. We can't play Thornton and Hairston against other teams starting fives. That puts us at 3 on 5 on offense which leads to Parker getting triple teamed like he did tonight. I just do not understand K sometimes. Something tells me I'm just not meant to.

I don't understand him either. He has put his faith in Hairston ad TT at the expense of ruining the confidence of much better players. That's my feeling. It's a hole he will have to dig himself out of. We have gone from being an amazing scoring team to a fairly good defense team that don't score as well.if you don't score you don't win....

[richardjackson199]

The refs had nothing to do with it. Duke lost the game and deserved to lose. I thought Thornton and Hairston played about as well as they could. But Duke is not going to be a top tier team this year when 2 of our starters can't score. It's 3 against 5 on the offensive end. That is why we put virtually no points on the board in the 2nd half. Our offense looked like 1 against 5 because everybody on the floor knows 2 of our players can't score. Their defense focused on Jabari, with TT or Hairston's man free to double Jabari when he touched the ball. We worked on defense, now we need to work on offense. Offense was awful this game. 1 on 5 all game. We should watch some tape of Drury or Vermont to see how to run an offense. Clearly I am much more disappointed after this loss than after Kansas. I think we need to be playing Matt Jones, Andre Dawkins, and maybe even trying to develop Semi. Hairston and TT are great captains, but we are going to lose many games this year if they get captains minutes. We cannot win a championship with them IMO. We need to find 5 guys who can run an offense Together, play defense together, and rebound. TT and Hairston are not the answer because they cannot put the ball in the basket. Hopefully we can learn from this loss, or this game will look similar to our NCAA tournament exit this season. Go Duke beat the Heels tomorrow!

[BigZ]

Can't recall a worse coached game by K. Playing Thorton And Hairston over Dawkins and Jefferson killed the offense.

[FerryFor50]

I'm not sure what's up with Amile's FT shooting. He's not a great FT shooter, but he shot 61% last season. Now he's shooting 38%. I'd definitely take 61%.

[Les Grossman]

tough to beat the good teams that way

[arnie]

This word should really be bleeped out, as curse words are on this forum. Honestly, I can't think of anything less appropriate.

When did this board begin mimicking PackPride? Refs didn't lose the game for us - Arizona, the better team, won easily down the stretch.

[jipops]

The play of Amile and Rasheed has been disappointing. I never expected Amile to score much for us but he's not getting much dirty work done. Rasheed is having a very difficult time adjusting from last season's offense to this one. For a team that supposedly is loaded with talent, the options appear limited at this point. Combine that with a team that has little familiarity with each other and there will be some tough times.

Still we gave a top 5 team a tight one. And it's November.

[dukelifer]

I don't understand him either. He has put his faith in Hairston ad TT at the expense of ruining the confidence of much better players. That's my feeling. It's a hole he will have to dig himself out of. We have gone from being an amazing scoring team to a fairly good defense team that don't score as well.if you don't score you don't win....

The D needs to be better. Lesson learned. The O needs work. Driving and dishing will help but that is not happening. Not sure he is ruining confidence. Those guys have played a lot this season. Duke is just not at the level of Kansas and Zona right now. That is true for almost all teams in college ball.

[roywhite]

I'm not sure what's up with Amile's FT shooting. He's not a great FT shooter, but he shot 61% last season. Now he's shooting 38%. I'd definitely take 61%.

Yeah, and some of the misses aren't pretty, for sure.

It's important for him to shoot fouls reasonably well, as he does get to the line; if he continues to shoot FTs so poorly, it's questionable as to his role.

[Gthoma2a]

I don't get using the other team's ranking as a reason to justify the loss. I think a more realistic outlook is looking at it through the lens of games that we've under-performed. We've had a few. It doesn't make our opponents locks for the Final Four. If so, Vermont is a step off of the Elite 8. This also pretends that we weren't expected to be right there with these teams going into the season and the game. There is no good loss.

[JohnGalt]

Can't recall a worse coached game by K. Playing Thorton And Hairston over Dawkins and Jefferson killed the offense.

Dawkins only played a few minutes the entire game. If this is subtle jab at our anemic offense the entire night, I apologize in advance.

[roywhite]

Yes, but so will everyone else. Without size coupled only with good (not great) guard play we aren't going to be world beaters. Top 3 or so in ACC and winning 25 games still a reasonable goal.

Seems way too early in the season to lower our goals and expectations.

There is a lot of talent, but it has to be pieced together; takes time.

[FerryFor50]

FerryFor50(tag)

My chat went haywire so replying here. Agree/Disagree on Tyler. He's good at what he does, but what he does is not winning us ball games. Its nice to have a floor leader on D but he can't create on offense at all. His M.O. is pass and/or hide in the corner. I like him getting 20 minutes a game, just not in place of Rasheed. I'd be fine with Dre getting a few of his minutes as well. Dude just doesn't have the skills. I hate to say it because I really like his game but dayum.

I dunno... I think TT was pretty pivotal in winning the Bama game. You can't have a floor full of stars; you also need role players that don't need the ball to be successful.

[jcastranio]

It really wasn't bad defense, but poor offense that did us in. We shoot 50% in the first half and about 30% in the second. I mean, Arizona took over six minutes in the second half to even hit their first shot. But, when we had a chance to stretch it out - missed free throws and some poor decisions on offense let them back in.

We are guilty of watching Jabari too much. In the second half, Zona just double-teamed him every time he came inside the 3 point line.

It wasn't the reason we lost, but ... why was this game called so loosely? Every game this year has been a foul fest, now, suddenly pushing, shoving, bumping, and arm bars are okay? How come Duke didn't get that inter-office memo? We mainly stayed away from their two guards - not much pressure. They were all over us. Yet, not many fouls called (discounting the end of the game).

Josh and Tyler together just doesn't seem to work - there is not a scoring threat from 40% of our lineup when they are in.

Andre and Matt both had some ill-advised moves in their brief moments - then they sat. We could have used them. I am not sure I understand why they have such a short leash.

Rasheed - the best part of his game is the drive and pull-up for the ten footer. Yet, he insists on either shooting the three or driving all the way to the hoop. It is not working. Use your whole game, buddy. We need it.

Not a bad game. A more experienced team would have won it. March is a long way off.

[Saratoga2]

I thought the defense played very well tonight except for the last 7 or 8 minutes of the game. We were very active on the floor and used some of the same players for almost the entire game. Playing such an aggressive defense has to be tiring for the guys. It may have also impacted the offense, but I think it was more to do with the size and athleticism of the Zona team.

The good news is that Rodney had a very good game and Parker was good but was under a lot of defensive pressure in the second half and I thought Quinn also played well, with the exception of trying to drive into a stacked and big defense near the end of the game.

What went wrong?

1. Certainly our free throw shooting was subpar with key misses late in the game.
2. Our need for more offensive capability from outside was pretty clear, yet we didn't use Andre that much and I didn't see Jones although he may have been in the game.
3.Jefferson was not an answer for the Zona inside game.

All in all it was a very competitive game that Duke might have won. We have to find a way to get our key players a blow by using a little longer bench and like has been said ellsewhere here, we have to learn to drive and dish for three point shooters. Move on and improve. We are probably a top 10 team now, but just barely.

[uh_no]

It wasn't the reason we lost, but ... why was this game called so loosely? Every game this year has been a foul fest, now, suddenly pushing, shoving, bumping, and arm bars are okay? How come Duke didn't get that inter-office memo?


because different refs are slightly different, and the rules are so ambiguously worded that no two people could possibly call the game exactly the same way

[mapei]

I think we have to give some credit to AZ. They came into the game ranked higher than us and proved they deserved it. Very big yet athletic. Great shot-blocking and rebounding. They also made key 3-pt shots. Not that Duke couldn't beat them with a few breaks here and there, but I thought we were pretty clearly the lesser team in the second half, even when we still clung to a lead despite being unable to score. It looked like a matter of time before AZ would catch up and then take the lead, which of course was exactly what happened.

I too fail to understand the minutes for Tyler and Josh. Excellent role players, but not starters on a team aspiring to elite status.

[DukeWarhead]

Top 3 or so in ACC and winning 25 games still a reasonable goal.

Considering the rest of the ACC, I certainly hope so. Only 25 wins would be weak. Frustrated as I am, I still expect Duke to battle Syracuse for the ACC.

[roywhite]

because different refs are slightly different, and the rules are so ambiguously worded that no two people could possibly call the game exactly the same way

Yeah, no doubt, and we certainly can't (or wouldn't want to) eliminate the human element in calling a game.

Still, there was a HUGE disparity in the way today's game was called vs nearly every single game I've seen since the rule and emphasis changes. I thought there was waaay too much contact without a whistle that went on, and I thought Duke generally got the short end of it. Not a well-officiated game IMO.

[BD80]

FerryFor50(tag)

My chat went haywire so replying here. Agree/Disagree on Tyler. He's good at what he does, but what he does is not winning us ball games. Its nice to have a floor leader on D but he can't create on offense at all. His M.O. is pass and/or hide in the corner. I like him getting 20 minutes a game, just not in place of Rasheed. I'd be fine with Dre getting a few of his minutes as well. Dude just doesn't have the skills. I hate to say it because I really like his game but dayum.

I have been working on staying calmer while watching games, and particularly in reducing shouting at the TV (40 years, it has yet to work). Alas, Tyler "drives" the baseline and throws a pass intended for the far corner, which is intercepted (easily) by the other team. Second game in a row. Maybe I'll make it through the next game, but Tyler on offense just gets to me.

[JohnGalt]

I too fail to understand the minutes for Tyler and Josh. Excellent role players, but not starters on a team aspiring to elite status.

Who do you insert for Josh though? At least he brings a degree of physicality under the basket. I seemed to notice Amile get beat both laterally and vertically numerous times tonight. Arizona is a particularly big and athletic team and 1 game is a small sample size, but that was a troubling performance from Jefferson.

Also...what was the point of sending out Marshall for 2 minutes in the first half? And then not seeing him again?

[FerryFor50]

I have been working on staying calmer while watching games, and particularly in reducing shouting at the TV (40 years, it has yet to work). Alas, Tyler "drives" the baseline and throws a pass intended for the far corner, which is intercepted (easily) by the other team. Second game in a row. Maybe I'll make it through the next game, but Tyler on offense just gets to me.

He also had some nice steals, a great pass to Jabari in the post for a dunk, and hit a baseline layup with 6 seconds left in the first half.

I saw MANY more bad plays by Cook than TT tonight... the difference is that TT doesn't try to do things he knows he can't do.

[BD80]

He also had some nice steals, a great pass to Jabari in the post for a dunk, and hit a baseline layup with 6 seconds left in the first half.

I saw MANY more bad plays by Cook than TT tonight... the difference is that TT doesn't try to do things he knows he can't do.

Except drive the baseline and try to pass to far corner. TWO GAMES IN A ROW

[FerryFor50]

Except drive the baseline and try to pass to far corner. TWO GAMES IN A ROW

Well, yea... :)

[Gthoma2a]

He also had some nice steals, a great pass to Jabari in the post for a dunk, and hit a baseline layup with 6 seconds left in the first half.

I saw MANY more bad plays by Cook than TT tonight... the difference is that TT doesn't try to do things he knows he can't do.

I disagreed. I saw Quinn be one of the few guys who actually got anything off of a drive, he had the most skilled play of the game and he shot 66.7%.

[mgtr]

Much of what we hear is defense, defense. I agree that is important, but I believe the problem is offense. If we had scored 90 points tonight, we would have been fine -- Arizona wouldn't have, in my view. But when we have two or three non-scorers in the game, we limit ourselves. Tyler, Josh and Amile our good at what they do, but that doesn't include much scoring. I am not suggesting that we play like Loyola-Marymount of old, but scoring more points is a good thing.

[DU82]

Hairston played baseline defense, Jefferson did not. Plumlee is not ready. That helped a lot on D. However, the guy guarding Josh doubled Parker every time in the second half. Toouch one on one (or two or three) right now.
One criticism of Duke teams has been we peak too soon. With the young talent on the team this year, I think we'll be much better later. Not all teams improve, especially "old" teams, we'll see what happens. It's still November.
On to Chapel Hill and the evil cheating smurfs.

[uh_no]

Yeah, no doubt, and we certainly can't (or wouldn't want to) eliminate the human element in calling a game.

Still, there was a HUGE disparity in the way today's game was called vs nearly every single game I've seen since the rule and emphasis changes. I thought there was waaay too much contact without a whistle that went on, and I thought Duke generally got the short end of it. Not a well-officiated game IMO.

oh i agree...but it's something we need to adjust to as the game goes on.

[FerryFor50]

I disagreed. I saw Quinn be one of the few guys who actually got anything off of a drive, he had the most skilled play of the game and he shot 66.7%.

He got blocked a few times and only had 3 assists to 2 turnovers. Cook didn't have as many bad plays as last game because he was giving Jabari the ball at the top of the key to run the offense. Plus, Zona didn't press.

Cook played better than he did against Bama, but my point was that I've seen more bad plays from Cook this season than from TT.

That said, I think Cook is definitely a better player and should play more than TT. But I don't get why people discount TT's contributions.

[DaleDuke7]

I like TT and JH, in the right situations. But starting and playing so much is not the right situations IMO. Our offense suffers too much. I think it'd be easier for our offensive players to learn defense than out defensive players to learn offense.

I'd like to see the starting 5: Cook, Hood, Parker, Jefferson, Plumlee.

Yes, I said Plumlee. Maybe he only gets 20 mins, but I think it'd be a confidence booster for him. He's the missing piece inside. Go with that lineup. Make sure to get Sheed his 25-30 mins. And just teach them to play defense. Drill, drill, drill. Offense is still intact with that lineup. I actually really like Amile. One thing I don't understand about K sometimes, a player (like Amile and even Marahall) will play well and hold their own, and then he'll take them out for an extended period of time... I don't know, just makes no sense to me. But then again, I've won 0 championships. I just hope they figure this thing out. We're way too talented to be playing this poorly. Not used to 2 losses in November.

[jv001]

Many thought on Duke's performance tonight. 1( good first half defense and offense. 2) 2nd half not so good defense and very poor offense. 3) Arizona is a very good team right now and maybe even better at the end of the season. 4) AZ has players that are good on offense and defense. 5) Rasheed is driving wildly to the basket and has only shot the midrange bank shot one time that I remember. He made it. Pull up Sheed and you won't get it blocked in your face. 6) Parker needs some rest in the 2nd half. He looked worn out. 7) We give up too much on offense when Tyler and Josh are in together. I believe they are ok if used not together. 8) Andre could have been valuable if he had been in and if Parker, Hood, Quinn and Sheed would dish the ball to him. 9) Amile needs a lot of work on his free throw shooting. Or should I say his free throwing. That form is not going to get him up to 60%. 10) I really believe Marshall could have done as well as Josh and Amile tonight. I never thought I would say that. 11) NEXT PLAY! GoDuke and beat unc!

[jcastranio]

I'm not as down on Josh as I have been. He does bring experience and a physical presence to the court. I just think that Tyler and Josh don't work as well together. And Josh? If they leave you open for the 15 footer, take it once in awhile. You are a Division 1 player.

[g-money]

A few random thoughts, echoing those of others in many cases:

- We need to distribute shots a little better. By my count, JP and RH combined for 61% of Duke's shots. That's not going to keep defenses honest.

- Coach's lineup decisions are a bit befuddling. I'm all for playing seniors that bleed royal blue, but by that logic Andre should be getting as much burn as TT and JH. (Here I assume that all three have relatively equal strengths and weaknesses).

- The refs appear to have already forgotten the early-season emphasis on limiting physical play. Oh well.

- This Arizona team is a good one, so we shouldn't hang our heads too much. But where this loss could hurt us down the road is in the quest for a #1 seed.

Coach K has his work cut out for him, but if anybody can come up with a way to make the best use of our players' talent, it's him.

[vick]

I don't get using the other team's ranking as a reason to justify the loss. I think a more realistic outlook is looking at it through the lens of games that we've under-performed. We've had a few. It doesn't make our opponents locks for the Final Four. If so, Vermont is a step off of the Elite 8. This also pretends that we weren't expected to be right there with these teams going into the season and the game. There is no good loss.

But we were right with Kansas and Arizona, both games were competitive into the last two minutes. I don't think it's a 'good loss' but losing two reasonably close games to top-5 teams doesn't portend any disaster (the Vermont performance was much worse).

[roywhite]

A few random thoughts, echoing those of others in many cases:

- We need to distribute shots a little better. By my count, JP and RH combined for 61% of Duke's shots. That's not going to keep defenses honest.

- Coach's lineup decisions are a bit befuddling. I'm all for playing seniors that bleed royal blue, but by that logic Andre should be getting as much burn as TT and JH. (Here I assume that all three have relatively equal strengths and weaknesses).

- The refs appear to have already forgotten the early-season emphasis on limiting physical play. Oh well.

- This Arizona team is a good one, so we shouldn't hang our heads too much. But where this loss could hurt us down the road is in the quest for a #1 seed.

Coach K has his work cut out for him, but if anybody can come up with a way to make the best use of our players' talent, it's him.

Good points.

This is a little bit different scenario for the team (and fans). We have become accustomed to seeing Duke playing as well or better than anybody in the country in November and December. We're just not there yet, but this can be a very good team by year end. Ideally, we'd like to have more size, but there is plenty of talent and I think the staff and players will build something impressive by late season.

[heyman25]

"Rasheed - the best part of his game is the drive and pull-up for the ten footer. Yet, he insists on either shooting the three or driving all the way to the hoop. It is not working. Use your whole game, buddy. We need it."
Lot of work to get this team in sync.
Poor decisions on offense got us in a hole in crunch time.Like the announcers said Duke needs a player other than Hood, Parker, or Cook to help the scoring load. That will not happen with Hairston and Thornton.At the moment Suleimon is not getting it done. I wish Dawkins could be the one.
I guess the staff doesn't think Plumlee, Murphy, or Oleyje are ready for primetime games.

[arnie]

Considering the rest of the ACC, I certainly hope so. Only 25 wins would be weak. Frustrated as I am, I still expect Duke to battle Syracuse for the ACC.

Would like to hope you're right and I'm wrong. But as many have opined, H and TT play huge minutes for this team. K knows his players and they're apparently deserving of their role. The team has a lower ceiling than most thought.

[CR9]

Marshall needs to play. Don't care about his lack of offense at this moment. We need his rebounding and defense. Same for Semi. Jabari and Hood need more rest throughout the game and Semi is the only 'like' player at the moment. Jones needs Sheed's minutes until Sheed gets over what seems like a mental block now. TT played well. Has done the past 2 games.

It's just frustrating, man. These are early-season marquee match-ups that Duke usually wins. Youth is biting them right now.

[dukelifer]

Much of what we hear is defense, defense. I agree that is important, but I believe the problem is offense. If we had scored 90 points tonight, we would have been fine -- Arizona wouldn't have, in my view. But when we have two or three non-scorers in the game, we limit ourselves. Tyler, Josh and Amile our good at what they do, but that doesn't include much scoring. I am not suggesting that we play like Loyola-Marymount of old, but scoring more points is a good thing.

Zona is fully capable of scoring points. Duke tried to outscore ECU and Vermont. This is the way tourney ball is played. You have to play half court. Duke needs a shooter. Dawkins or Jones could be that guy.

[uh_no]

I'm not as down on Josh as I have been. He does bring experience and a physical presence to the court. I just think that Tyler and Josh don't work as well together. And Josh? If they leave you open for the 15 footer, take it once in awhile. You are a Division 1 player.

there's a reason they leave him open from 15' out....and I think at least one person here has gone loopy seeing him take that shot.

if you're going to take it once in a while, you gotta make it once in a while, and taking jumpers simply isn't josh's game.

like zoubek, hairston has figured out what he can and can't do on the court, and has realized he is most effective not trying to do the things he can't do.

[CALVET]

I like TT and JH, in the right situations. But starting and playing so much is not the right situations IMO. Our offense suffers too much. I think it'd be easier for our offensive players to learn defense than out defensive players to learn offense.

I'd like to see the starting 5: Cook, Hood, Parker, Jefferson, Plumlee.

Yes, I said Plumlee. Maybe he only gets 20 mins, but I think it'd be a confidence booster for him. He's the missing piece inside. Go with that lineup. Make sure to get Sheed his 25-30 mins. And just teach them to play defense. Drill, drill, drill. Offense is still intact with that lineup. I actually really like Amile. One thing I don't understand about K sometimes, a player (like Amile and even Marahall) will play well and hold their own, and then he'll take them out for an extended period of time... I don't know, just makes no sense to me. But then again, I've won 0 championships. I just hope they figure this thing out. We're way too talented to be playing this poorly. Not used to 2 losses in November.

Totally concur. Every starter but Cook is playing out of position. Hairston is a great kid and a locker room leader, but I don't really understand what he can do at center that Marshall can't with a little infusion of confidence from PT. K's loyalty is admirable but this is exactly the scenario I feared.

[FireOgilvie]

As I see it, Hood is a liability on defense. His problem isn't on-ball defense, it's playing his man when someone else has the ball. He's almost always out of position, particularly down low. He's also become more of a black hole on offense (doesn't pass), although he could easily fix this. He had 5 assists against KU, and 3 in the last 3 games.

[jv001]

Would like to hope you're right and I'm wrong. But as many have opined, H and TT play huge minutes for this team. K knows his players and they're apparently deserving of their role. The team has a lower ceiling than most thought.

We have seen Josh and Tyler for 3+ years and I don't see them getting much better on the offensive end of the court. TT has good enough of a game to play an effective 20 mins, but not at the same time as Josh. Josh is a 6'7" center with no hops. He's smart and understands the game but he should not get over 10 mins on a top ten team. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong on this being a top ten team. GoDuke!

[azzefkram]

I saw MANY more bad plays by Cook than TT tonight... the difference is that TT doesn't try to do things he knows he can't do.

You also saw many, many, many more good plays by Cook. You also saw Arizona not bothering to guard TT and Hairston. You also saw what 3 on 5 basketball looks like. Tyler is a really good role player who should be playing 10-15 minutes per game.

[dukelifer]

Good points.

This is a little bit different scenario for the team (and fans). We have become accustomed to seeing Duke playing as well or better than anybody in the country in November and December. We're just not there yet, but this can be a very good team by year end. Ideally, we'd like to have more size, but there is plenty of talent and I think the staff and players will build something impressive by late season.

And accustomed to everyone saying Duke is peaking too early and not playing enough guys. Duke is inexperienced and it showed in critical moments. Cook needs to be the most poised player on the court in crunch time and he is not right now.

[CR9]

As I see it, Hood is a liability on defense. His problem isn't on-ball defense, it's playing his man when someone else has the ball. He's almost always out of position, particularly down low. He's also become more of a black hole on offense (doesn't pass), although he could easily fix this. He had 5 assists against KU, and 3 in the last 3 games.

I was actually quite disappointed with Hood's lack of aggression against KU. Whilst 5 assists is nice, 8 and 5 isn't what you'd like, ideally, from your SF. I'd much prefer 20 and 2.

[rsvman]

Tough game to watch in the second half.

I would have liked to have seen more Andre Dawkins in the second half; if nothing else, why not bring him in when you're down 10-ish points with about two and a half minutes to go? He's a senior; he's been there before; he's hit some big shots in some big games for us in the past; he's not afraid of a big stage; and he's sitting right there on your bench. Put him in! Let him play!

Rasheed would be awe-inspiring if he were 4 inches taller, but he's not. Since he's probably not going to grow 4 inches in the next few months, he needs to pull up for the short jumper or the floater before he gets either completely under the basket or right next to a guy who is 5 or 6 inches taller than he is.


Still, not a terrible loss. A lot of stuff to work on. Most of the problems have been mentioned over and over again in this thread. I have to believe that if pretty much all the posters on this board saw the same problems, the coaching staff saw them, too.

[ncexnyc]

People were crying like babies after the Vermont game the other night, saying how terrible the D was. In fact it was so bad several people claimed they were actually embarrassed and that they were going to mark that game down as a loss. Coach K. then starts his two most experienced players, Tyler and Josh and suddenly the D looks a lot better. Of course now the naysayers are talking about us playing 3 on 5. Funny, I don't remember Lance or Brian being offensive juggernauts and that season turned out pretty well for us.

I have no misconception about the Bruise Brothers and their basketballs skills. I freely admit there are more physically gifted and more talented players on our bench, but until those kids learn where they are supposed to be on the court when playing D, their minutes will continue to be limited.

I love Amile and coined the nickname, "The Eel" for him last year, because he had a knack for scoring around the basket, however he is a true college 4. He doesn't have the size or bulk to do well against true college 5's.

[Dukehky]

Last time Dre, played in the Garden, he went for 28. It was obvious we weren't hitting 3's, and probably weren't going to start, but we needed them to loosen things up for the drivers: Insert Dawkins. Even if he doesn't hit, he's an immediate threat that has to be dealt with. What happened to those drives of Jefferson against Kansas? Guess that was an aberration.

[jipops]

Honestly, the 1 pt win vs. VT is still far far more disturbing than our 2 losses.

This was not a bad loss.

[CDu]

Tough loss. Not much to say other than that Arizona was better. Better PG play, better interior defense, better offensive balance, better shooting. Just wasn't our night. Still, to lose by only 6 despite a rough shooting night (especially from our superstar) against a top-5 team isn't the end of the world. Just hate that it means we have yet to earn a quality win this year (and are 0-2 against the elite teams so far).

My thoughts:

1. Parker had a tough night and seemed to be forcing it. 7-21 with 5 turnovers. So he is in fact mortal after all. I suspect fatigue had some part in his second half struggles, as he did not come out in the second half. We've got to get him some help inside. We can't expect him to carry the team every night. Arizona doubled Parker every time he posted up, and they gave help every time he tried to drive. It was a good game plan, as Parker didn't handle it well (5 turnovers to just 1 assist to go with his 7-21 night). Just a freshman night tonight for him.

2. So much for Duke playing deep, huh? Only seven guys played more than 1-2 minutes, and Dawkins (the 7th man) only played sparingly at that. Jones and Plumlee got cameos, Ojeleye and Murphy did not leave the bench. Not surprising: it's been a long time since Coach K has used depth. No reason to expect anything different.

3. Defense has definitely improved, but now it appears that the offense is struggling. Some may blame the switch in lineup, but I think there's a bit more to it than that. We've played 8 games thus far: 3 against top-25 defenses, 5 against teams outside the top-125 in defense. In the three tougher games we've averaged 74.3 ppg, topping 75 just once. In the game against the weaker defenses, we've averaged 94.6 ppg, never scoring below 80 and breaking 90 in 4 of 5. Maybe we aren't quite the juggernaut offensively that we thought - at least not yet.

4. Nice to see Hood bounce back and have his first big game against a top-quality opponent. There was an inkling of concern that he might be the type of player who dominates against inferior opponents but struggles against teams with similar size/talent. His performance tonight shook away that fear.

5. Cook is such an up-and-down player. I thought he looked good when he attacked tonight, scoring well in the paint and providing a couple of nice assists. But he also made a couple of really bad decisions. We need him to be steady and productive. Right now, it seems like he's a bit shaky, and as a result so are we.

6. We really need Sulaimon to get his confidence back. So much of what we thought was going to make this a dynamite team was his ability at the SG spot. But he's just not the same player right now that he was last year, and that's a shame. Hopefully he'll get the ship righted by ACC play. We're going to need his ability to show through for us to make a deep run.

7. Just 13 points (4-14 shooting) from guys not named Parker, Hood, or Cook. Hard to win when you are so reliant on three guys to score. You have to be REALLY good defensively to make that work.

[_Gary]

I love Amile and coined the nickname, "The Eel" for him last year, because he had a knack for scoring around the basket, however he is a true college 4. He doesn't have the size or bulk to do well against true college 5's.

And Josh does? At 6'7" and with no hops? Sorry, but I just don't see it. And I'll be surprised if we see the same starting 5 when we play Michigan next. If we do, it will utterly shock me.

[CDu]

I love Amile and coined the nickname, "The Eel" for him last year, because he had a knack for scoring around the basket, however he is a true college 4. He doesn't have the size or bulk to do well against true college 5's.

Agreed. Love the kid's enthusiasm and energy. But I don't love him at C.


Honestly, the 1 pt win vs. VT is still far far more disturbing than our 2 losses.

This was not a bad loss.

Double agreed. 6-point loss to a top-5 team when our best player had a tough night and the supporting cast didn't step up. Could have been much worse. That we had a legitimate chance to win for the first 30 minutes of that game says a lot. That we didn't completely go away at the end does too.

Clearly we're not where we'd like to be right now. But even though we aren't there yet, we've at least played tight with two of the best teams in the country.

[CDu]

And Josh does? At 6'7" and with no hops? Sorry, but I just don't see it. And I'll be surprised if we see the same starting 5 when we play Michigan next. If we do, it will utterly shock me.

Neither guy is very well-suited to play the 5. Saying that Jefferson isn't suited for the position is not the same thing as saying Hairston is.

Right now, our best C is Parker. And it's not close. Unfortunately, forcing Parker to play C every night is probably not the best thing to do to him. So we're going to need somebody - whether it be Hairston, Jefferson, Plumlee, Murphy, or Ojeleye (and my money is not on the last 3 guys) - to step up.

[BlueDevilBrowns]

My opinion is the problem for us right now is having personnel that doesn't fit together quite yet on the floor.

We have guys that can play offense but can't be trusted on defense,such as Dre and Semi.

Then we have players that can play defense but can't score. TT and Josh for example.

Because of this, K's rotations seem so off.

Let's hope K can find five strong 2-way starters by January.

[Furniture]

The play of Amile and Rasheed has been disappointing. I never expected Amile to score much for us but he's not getting much dirty work done. Rasheed is having a very difficult time adjusting from last season's offense to this one. For a team that supposedly is loaded with talent, the options appear limited at this point. Combine that with a team that has little familiarity with each other and there will be some tough times.

Still we gave a top 5 team a tight one. And it's November.

Amile and Rasheed have it in their heads that they are worse than JH and TT. They are not. Their confidence it very low. This is when K needs to show us what a great coach he is....

[vick]

People were crying like babies after the Vermont game the other night, saying how terrible the D was. In fact it was so bad several people claimed they were actually embarrassed and that they were going to mark that game down as a loss. Coach K. then starts his two most experienced players, Tyler and Josh and suddenly the D looks a lot better. Of course now the naysayers are talking about us playing 3 on 5. Funny, I don't remember Lance or Brian being offensive juggernauts and that season turned out pretty well for us.

I don't think it's fair to pin this loss on Tyler and Josh, but Zoubek and Thomas were much better players than those two ever have been. By his senior year Brian was--easily--the most efficient rebounder Duke has had in at least a quarter-century, and Lance was a valuable enough defender to have a career at the next level. If we are relying on Tyler and Josh to be as useful as Brian and Lance were as seniors, they will either need to be significantly better than they ever have been, or we are in trouble.

[tteettimes]

What we really need is a a really good BIG..Lance would make a diff on this team

[_Gary]

Neither guy is very well-suited to play the 5. Saying that Jefferson isn't suited for the position is not the same thing as saying Hairston is.

Right now, our best C is Parker. And it's not close. Unfortunately, forcing Parker to play C every night is probably not the best thing to do to him. So we're going to need somebody - whether it be Hairston, Jefferson, Plumlee, Murphy, or Ojeleye (and my money is not on the last 3 guys) - to step up.

I completely agree that right now Parker is the best suited to play the position. And I also agree that that's an unfortunate thing because we really don't want him playing there. But I felt the original poster was making the point that playing Hairston at C was preferrable to Jefferson for defense sake. If that wasn't the intented point, I'm sorry. But if it was, then I'm disagreeing. Neither guy is a good option for the 5, but if I have to take one over the other I'll take my chances with Amile over Josh at that position. Just saying.

Frankly, I'd like to see us run Andre out there on Tuesday as our starter at SG. I think we do lose too much on offense with Tyler, and right now Rasheed really is in a slump. Andre is a 5th year senior and I think it would be worth a shot. We'll see how things shake out between now and then and what changes are made.

[jv001]

Who do you insert for Josh though? At least he brings a degree of physicality under the basket. I seemed to notice Amile get beat both laterally and vertically numerous times tonight. Arizona is a particularly big and athletic team and 1 game is a small sample size, but that was a troubling performance from Jefferson.

Also...what was the point of sending out Marshall for 2 minutes in the first half? And then not seeing him again?

Amile has no hops but he's long. But that has not helped him get his shot off against taller better leapers so far this year. Last year he was effective using a reverse layup. He used the basket to ward off the player trying for the block. I have not seen that play ytd. One other thing that I've noticed is standing around waiting for Parker to do something on offense. Sort of like the offense we used with Austin. I didn't like that offense. GoDuke!

[Furniture]

Andre and Matt both had some ill-advised moves in their brief moments - then they sat. We could have used them. I am not sure I understand why they have such a short leash.

TT makes mistakes. Why does he have such a long leash?

[CDu]

2. So much for Duke playing deep, huh? Only seven guys played more than 1-2 minutes, and Dawkins (the 7th man) only played sparingly at that. Jones and Plumlee got cameos, Ojeleye and Murphy did not leave the bench. Not surprising: it's been a long time since Coach K has used depth. No reason to expect anything different.

Before someone corrects me, I made a math boo-boo. We played 7 deep (Jefferson got 19, Sulaimon 24), not 6. The point remains the same, though slightly less emphatically: when the going gets tough, Coach K is going to trim the rotation dramatically.

[jv001]

What we really need is a a really good BIG..Lance would make a diff on this team

Rather have Zoubs. No wait, I'll take Christian. GoDuke!

[wsb3]

I like TT and JH, in the right situations. But starting and playing so much is not the right situations IMO. Our offense suffers too much.

I agree with this 100%. It's like playing 3 on 5 on offense.

[CDu]

Amile has no hops but he's long. But that has not helped him get his shot off against taller better leapers so far this year. Last year he was effective using a reverse layup. He used the basket to ward off the player trying for the block. I have not seen that play ytd. One other thing that I've noticed is standing around waiting for Parker to do something on offense. Sort of like the offense we used with Austin. I didn't like that offense. GoDuke!

He did try the reverse once tonight but got blocked.

[Furniture]

Also...what was the point of sending out Marshall for 2 minutes in the first half? And then not seeing him again?

I agree. Makes no sense at all...

[Kedsy]

For most of the game I thought this was a really good game between two completely evenly matched teams. They went on that mini-run and our offensive mindset was in no shape to counter properly, but overall I don't entirely understand all the negativity here.

It's unfortunate that our top offensive players felt the need to go one-on-team for the last 10 or so minutes of the game. If we played real offense, we might have been able to stage a comeback.


Top 3 or so in ACC and winning 25 games still a reasonable goal.

This is a crazy overreaction. We're still the favorite in the ACC. I'll be surprised if we don't win 30 games (or at least get close, like 28).



3. We need a low post scorer to turn into a legitimate FF team


That was your takeaway from tonight's game? I don't see "low post scorer" as even top 5 on our wish list.


Duke played well for much of the game. Unfortunately, Zona's size was too much.

I didn't see their size as that big of a deal, actually. The guys who hurt us during their run were Gordon and Johnson, 6'8" and 6'3". Tarczewski got 10 and 9, which is good but no better than you'd expect in any game from a skilled, mobile 7-footer. Ashley looked tough early but we got him in foul trouble, which is what you want with opposing bigs.


Just gonna say it once to get it off my chest. Zone was stupid, stupid, stupid. Gave up easiest baskets of the night AND let them take extra time off the clock with no pressure. Learn to defend the high screen... b/c zoning up ain't the answer. Man!

But what about all those DBR posters who have been clamoring for zone for a few minutes? Doesn't their vote count? I mean, with all those people asking for it, how could Coach K refuse?


I'd like to see the starting 5: Cook, Hood, Parker, Jefferson, Plumlee.

Yes, I said Plumlee. Maybe he only gets 20 mins, but I think it'd be a confidence booster for him.

I don't think our offense would be any better with this lineup, and I don't think Marshall is ready to play 20 minutes a game.


Much of what we hear is defense, defense. I agree that is important, but I believe the problem is offense. If we had scored 90 points tonight, we would have been fine -- Arizona wouldn't have, in my view. But when we have two or three non-scorers in the game, we limit ourselves. Tyler, Josh and Amile our good at what they do, but that doesn't include much scoring. I am not suggesting that we play like Loyola-Marymount of old, but scoring more points is a good thing.

I think the key is balance. We had the best offense in the country, but our defense was giving up 90 points to Vermont. The past two games we've had a pretty decent defense (not great yet, but pretty decent), but our offense is only OK. Once Jabari, Rodney, Quinn, and Rasheed get it into their heads that they have to do it all by themselves, our offense is gone.

What made our previous offense so potent was we had five guys who were all dangers to score, and thus (a) the other team couldn't focus on one or two or even three guys; and (b) the guys were more willing to share the ball. I don't think Tyler or Josh will be able to turn themselves into a true danger to score at this point in their careers, but until the better offensive threats prove themselves capable on defensive end, we either need Tyler and Josh in there or we need to simply try to outscore our opponents, something Coach K has never been very fond of. I don't know what the answer is, but I believe the key is more balance.

[_Gary]

Before someone corrects me, I made a math boo-boo. We played 7 deep (Jefferson got 19, Sulaimon 24), not 6. The point remains the same, though slightly less emphatically: when the going gets tough, Coach K is going to trim the rotation dramatically.

Yep. And moreso this year than any other in recent memory, I think that's a shame and something he'll correct as the season progresses. We really do have more quality depth this year than in previous seasons. Why Semi has suddenly fallen completely out of the rotation is a mystery to me. Seemed like a solid rebounder to me early on.

[roywhite]

1. Parker had a tough night and seemed to be forcing it. 7-21 with 5 turnovers. So he is in fact mortal after all. I suspect fatigue had some part in his second half struggles, as he did not come out in the second half. We've got to get him some help inside. We can't expect him to carry the team every night. Arizona doubled Parker every time he posted up, and they gave help every time he tried to drive. It was a good game plan, as Parker didn't handle it well (5 turnovers to just 1 assist to go with his 7-21 night). Just a freshman night tonight for him.



Yeah, we learned Jabari is not super-human. He can be stopped by double teams from a procession of physical, athletic players, esp. when the refs allow a lot of contact. I'm confident he can adjust accordingly in those situations and find open teammates. The other part of that is that those teammates need to do their part and score.

[Furniture]

Hairston played baseline defense, Jefferson did not. Plumlee is not ready.
Will he ever be ready nit playing?

[jv001]

For most of the game I thought this was a really good game between two completely evenly matched teams. They went on that mini-run and our offensive mindset was in no shape to counter properly, but overall I don't entirely understand all the negativity here.

It's unfortunate that our top offensive players felt the need to go one-on-team for the last 10 or so minutes of the game. If we played real offense, we might have been able to stage a comeback.



This is a crazy overreaction. We're still the favorite in the ACC. I'll be surprised if we don't win 30 games (or at least get close, like 28).



That was your takeaway from tonight's game? I don't see "low post scorer" as even top 5 on our wish list.



I didn't see their size as that big of a deal, actually. The guys who hurt us during their run were Gordon and Johnson, 6'8" and 6'3". Tarczewski got 10 and 9, which is good but no better than you'd expect in any game from a skilled, mobile 7-footer. Ashley looked tough early but we got him in foul trouble, which is what you want with opposing bigs.



But what about all those DBR posters who have been clamoring for zone for a few minutes? Doesn't their vote count? I mean, with all those people asking for it, how could Coach K refuse?



I don't think our offense would be any better with this lineup, and I don't think Marshall is ready to play 20 minutes a game.



I think the key is balance. We had the best offense in the country, but our defense was giving up 90 points to Vermont. The past two games we've had a pretty decent defense (not great yet, but pretty decent), but our offense is only OK. Once Jabari, Rodney, Quinn, and Rasheed get it into their heads that they have to do it all by themselves, our offense is gone.
What made our previous offense so potent was we had five guys who were all dangers to score, and thus (a) the other team couldn't focus on one or two or even three guys; and (b) the guys were more willing to share the ball. I don't think Tyler or Josh will be able to turn themselves into a true danger to score at this point in their careers, but until the better offensive threats prove themselves capable on defensive end, we either need Tyler and Josh in there or we need to simply try to outscore our opponents, something Coach K has never been very fond of. I don't know what the answer is, but I believe the key is more balance.

To me this is the key to our offense playing the way it's suppose to work. I hope it's not selfishness and more as you say, trying to do too much on their own. I also believe if this happens, there is a place for Andre to get more minutes. He can shoot the three and that can open up the lane for the players you named. GoDuke!

[nmduke2001]

I know that Tyler has a ton of support from Duke fans because of his heart and hustle, but looking at it objectively, Tyler is not a starting 2 in big time college basketball. Tyler is a backup point guard. The defense that Tyler brings at the 2 does not justify his lack of offense. I would much rather see Andre play 20-25 minutes a game. In my opinion, Dre’s offense covers up his defensive liabilities because just having Dre in the game opens up the court for everyone else. When Tyler is in the game, his defender simply sags off of him to double someone else. It’s very frustrating.

[FireOgilvie]

I was actually quite disappointed with Hood's lack of aggression against KU. Whilst 5 assists is nice, 8 and 5 isn't what you'd like, ideally, from your SF. I'd much prefer 20 and 2.

Yes, obviously. But, why not both? He's a very good passer. I like it when we run the offense through him and Parker getting the ball at the top of the key, taking mid-range shots, driving to the basket, drawing fouls, and when they get double-teamed, hopefully kicking it out to open 3 point shooters. It works really well. I would try to do that more often, especially at the end of games. I think we were trying to get Jabari the ball a little bit too close to the basket tonight, and it wasn't working against them, particularly with the way the refs were calling it (although it would work better against a smaller team).

I think we have an identity crisis right now as a team. Our best options IMO are going small and being incredibly aggressive on offense/defense, shooting a lot of 3s and running or taking the opposite route, going big and playing Plumlee 20 minutes per game (Cook, Hood, Parker, Jefferson, Plumlee). The big team has the highest ceiling on defense, small on offense. Today I think Coach tried to play somewhere in between, not playing to our strengths. Thornton and Hairston getting 20+ minutes each? 3 on 5 on offense, and I don't think they are much better on defense than the alternatives. We got out-rebounded. I have no idea idea what he was trying to do. On my ideal team, Thornton and Hairston would play a combined 10 minutes or less, with almost all minutes coming from Thornton.

[Kedsy]

Neither guy is a good option for the 5, but if I have to take one over the other I'll take my chances with Amile over Josh at that position. Just saying.


I, too, prefer Amile to Josh at center, but honestly for the past several games Amile's defense has been really poor. We've seen him play better in the past, so maybe it's a confidence thing now, but lately he's been a defensive liability. If he doesn't turn that around, then he's probably not the correct answer as our primary big. That said, I have confidence he can turn it around and win back the job.

[Newton_14]

Tough loss. Not much to say other than that Arizona was better. Better PG play, better interior defense, better offensive balance, better shooting. Just wasn't our night. Still, to lose by only 6 despite a rough shooting night (especially from our superstar) against a top-5 team isn't the end of the world. Just hate that it means we have yet to earn a quality win this year (and are 0-2 against the elite teams so far).

My thoughts:

1. Parker had a tough night and seemed to be forcing it. 7-21 with 5 turnovers. So he is in fact mortal after all. I suspect fatigue had some part in his second half struggles, as he did not come out in the second half. We've got to get him some help inside. We can't expect him to carry the team every night. Arizona doubled Parker every time he posted up, and they gave help every time he tried to drive. It was a good game plan, as Parker didn't handle it well (5 turnovers to just 1 assist to go with his 7-21 night). Just a freshman night tonight for him.

2. So much for Duke playing deep, huh? Only seven guys played more than 1-2 minutes, and Dawkins (the 7th man) only played sparingly at that. Jones and Plumlee got cameos, Ojeleye and Murphy did not leave the bench. Not surprising: it's been a long time since Coach K has used depth. No reason to expect anything different.

3. Defense has definitely improved, but now it appears that the offense is struggling. Some may blame the switch in lineup, but I think there's a bit more to it than that. We've played 8 games thus far: 3 against top-25 defenses, 5 against teams outside the top-125 in defense. In the three tougher games we've averaged 74.3 ppg, topping 75 just once. In the game against the weaker defenses, we've averaged 94.6 ppg, never scoring below 80 and breaking 90 in 4 of 5. Maybe we aren't quite the juggernaut offensively that we thought - at least not yet.

4. Nice to see Hood bounce back and have his first big game against a top-quality opponent. There was an inkling of concern that he might be the type of player who dominates against inferior opponents but struggles against teams with similar size/talent. His performance tonight shook away that fear.

5. Cook is such an up-and-down player. I thought he looked good when he attacked tonight, scoring well in the paint and providing a couple of nice assists. But he also made a couple of really bad decisions. We need him to be steady and productive. Right now, it seems like he's a bit shaky, and as a result so are we.

6. We really need Sulaimon to get his confidence back. So much of what we thought was going to make this a dynamite team was his ability at the SG spot. But he's just not the same player right now that he was last year, and that's a shame. Hopefully he'll get the ship righted by ACC play. We're going to need his ability to show through for us to make a deep run.

7. Just 13 points (4-14 shooting) from guys not named Parker, Hood, or Cook. Hard to win when you are so reliant on three guys to score. You have to be REALLY good defensively to make that work.

Good post. One thing hurting us I think, is K seems to be trying too hard with the current offensive scheme's, to take advantage of the new rules. We have just about totally abandoned using the 3-Ball as a key part of the offense. Thus all the mindless driving expecting to get the foul call. That is especially hurting Rasheed right now, but that is partly his fault. The driver has to seek and initiate contact, especially with the new charge/block rule. Rasheed is current not doing that. As soon as he reaches the interior defender, he contorts his body to avoid or lessen the contact, as well as altering his shot to avoid getting it blocked. He has to change his mindset, and seek the contact, and not care if the shot gets blocked. The goal is to draw the foul. If he is not going to do that, then like others mentioned, he needs to pull up for the mid-range jumper which is really good at.

We need to use the 3 pointer a little more than we are, and slow down on the iso stuff. Too easy to guard. Also agree that in a close game, K just can't bring himself to play a more balanced rotation. Giving Semi and Murphy a few minutes would not have killed us. Andre, Matt, and MP3 got cameo's, and outside of that K rode the top 7 guys.

Still a winnable game though and Arizona is a legit Top-5 team. We just made a few too many mistakes, especially early in the 2nd half when we had a good chance to put them in a hole. We did not play close to our potential and still led much of the game, but finished poorly.

I expected we would drop a few of the Nov/Dec games due to youth and a bunch of new faces learning to play together. Unlike the last few years, this team is not playing their best ball in the early season. I still believe they can get a lot better than they are right now. K will work his tail off to figure out how to get them to play to their full potential, it just might be Jan/Feb before it happens.

[roywhite]

Boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209326539)

Duke shot 35.7% in 2nd half and 4-14 from 3-pt for the game.

Two starters, Josh and Tyler, played a total of 43 minutes and had only 2 points total.

Amile was 0-3 at the FT line; Arizona shot well from the line, 21-26 overall.

[DukeDevil]

Was just watching sportscenter and johnson was on. Apparently their plan on Jabari was to help out on him and "rough him up." *SMH*

[CR9]

Yes, obviously. But, why not both? He's a very good passer. I like it when we run the offense through him and Parker getting the ball at the top of the key, taking mid-range shots, driving to the basket, drawing fouls, and when they get double-teamed, hopefully kicking it out to open 3 point shooters. It works really well. I would try to do that more often, especially at the end of games. I think we were trying to get Jabari the ball a little bit too close to the basket tonight, and it wasn't working against them, particularly with the way the refs were calling it (although it would work better against a smaller team).

I think we have an identity crisis right now as a team. Our best options IMO are going small and being incredibly aggressive on offense/defense, shooting a lot of 3s and running or taking the opposite route, going big and playing Plumlee 20 minutes per game (Cook, Hood, Parker, Jefferson, Plumlee). The big team has the highest ceiling on defense, small on offense. Today I think Coach tried to play somewhere in between, not playing to our strengths. Thornton and Hairston getting 20+ minutes each? 3 on 5 on offense, and I don't think they are much better on defense than the alternatives. We got out-rebounded. I have no idea idea what he was trying to do. On my ideal team, Thornton and Hairston would play a combined 10 minutes or less, with almost all minutes coming from Thornton.
Obviously you'd like both but at this moment in time, at this stage in his development, you have to choose. All of them seem to get tunnel vision when they slash. Considering Duke doesn't spread the court much, help defense rotates and bad things happen. I agree with your last bit though. Small ball doesn't work when neither of your 'centers' are a threat outside of 5 feet.

[jv001]

Regarding Rasheed, I'm wondering if he's put too much pressure on himself trying to please the coaches. He's a much better player than he's shown so far. Before the season, I thought he would even see time at the point giving Quinn a rest, but he's not the same player he was last year. GoDuke!

[NYBri]

Boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209326539)

Two starters, Josh and Tyler, played a total of 43 minutes and had only 2 points.

We needed 80 points to be assured of a win.

[OldSchool]

They're having Jabari take some very tough shots. Instead of having him take his man all the time, why not mix it up with some screens or double-screens to get him some open catch-and-shoots? He has such an incredibly sweet jump shot, an open jump shot is like a lay-up for him. The approach they're taking right now is to put the ball in his hands and let him go to work against the defense or have him pick up points around the rim. Let's have him move without the ball and get him some open looks.

[duke96]

Not sure how visible this was on TV but at the game Arizona's offense looked extremely effective in maintaining constant motion. All the time, aggressive screens and slashes to the basket, good passes and ball movement. It particularly highlighted what has been our primary liability on defense so far this season - effective switches. Created a lot of their best, easy basket opportunities. Haven't seen their other games to know whether they particularly emphasized this versus us given our weakness in switching.

Part of me takes some comfort that few other teams will be as effective in this strategy as Arizona was, because they were so athletic and seemingly well coached and organized in deploying this strategy The greater part of me fears the roadmap to beating our defense is becoming increasingly clear. Didn't seem to matter tremendously who was in the game for us, but I need to watch again to see this for sure.

I also wonder whether the lack of clarity about what our "core" lineup is delaying our guys' ability to develop a defensive rhythm and anticipate each others' reactions to screens, cuts, etc.

Agree with the concerns about our offense. We decidedly lacked the motion, coordination, and rhythm on offense that Arizona displayed. I thought Rodney looked pretty brilliant most times he touched the ball. Wish he got it even more. Jabari looked like he was trying too hard sometimes, which is a first for him, but also not sure what else we would do with Josh and Tyler getting so much airtime and Quinn playing inconsistently. My first oppty to see Jabari in person. Even perhaps a bit fatigued and without his outside stroke working like we have seen to date he still looked like a beast out there. He had a bunch of near-misses (dunks/putbacks, rebounds, one near steal) that would have been spectacular plays if completed. It's pretty amazing how comfortable he is both facing and with his back to the basket. And when he decides to take it to the hoop it seemed like he was nearly unstoppable save for fouling. As he gets better at finishing, he is going to be just unreal. Was a bummer he missed his last free throw so didnt keep up his 20 points streak.

Excited to watch this team develop. Coach definitely has one of his most challenging seasons ahead in trying to get this talented team to develop to its full potential. I happen to agree with those who who don't want to see Josh and Tyler on the floor much together. It seemed to hobble out offense. Both made some solid defensive contributions. I do think both of those guys are effectively playing at or near their "peak" and don't seem to have much upside from here. Given how many guys we have who seem to have upside (Matt, Semi, Andre) to what we have seen, it seems an important part of getting better is to figure out how to exploit this.

[jv001]

They're having Jabari take some very tough shots. Instead of having him take his man all the time, why not mix it up with some screens or double-screens to get him some open catch-and-shoots? He has such an incredibly sweet jump shot, an open jump shot is like a lay-up for him. The approach they're taking right now is to put the ball in his hands and let him go to work against the defense or have him pick up points around the rim. Let's have him move without the ball and get him some open looks.

^ this. Jabari looked worn out toward the end of the game. Having him work so hard for his shot takes a toll on him. Then he has to play one of the two bigs for most of the game. No wonder he looks like he's dragging at the end of the game. GoDuke!

[BD80]

Before someone corrects me, I made a math boo-boo. We played 7 deep (Jefferson got 19, Sulaimon 24), not 6. The point remains the same, though slightly less emphatically: when the going gets tough, Coach K is going to trim the rotation dramatically.

Since Jabari is carrying the entire team. Coach K is trying to lighten the load by reducing the number of players he is carrying and staying with the smaller players.

[azzefkram]

I, too, prefer Amile to Josh at center, but honestly for the past several games Amile's defense has been really poor. We've seen him play better in the past, so maybe it's a confidence thing now, but lately he's been a defensive liability. If he doesn't turn that around, then he's probably not the correct answer as our primary big. That said, I have confidence he can turn it around and win back the job.

Neither are defensive dynamos but from what I've seen of Amile he is at least as good as Josh. FWIW, dRtg has Amile significantly better than Josh. Throw in the abysmal rebounding and foul rate... well I just don't see the benefit of playing Josh 20+ minutes a game.

[SheltonBob]

The most frustrating thing to me tonight, while I watched the Duke loss to Arizona in person at MSG, is that we could have and should have beaten Arizona. I remember Coach K saying at his press conference after the Kansas game that one reason Duke lost that game is that Duke did not take advantage of the possibilities that existed in the first half, thus not having as big a lead as we should have had while we had the upper hand.

As I watched the first four minutes of the Arizona game tonight, I rmembered Coach K's comments as we failed to score on several possessions while Arizona was turning the ball over repeatedly. But why should we expect anything more on offense when two starters played 43 minutes and took only 2 shots and scored only 2 points.

But Coach K saw what we saw and he knows more about basketball than any of us, and probably more than all of us combined. He will figure out, at his pace while he is turning the next page, that:

#1 - we can only afford to have Tyler Thornton and Josh Hairston, two of the hardest workers I have witnessed, on the Court at the same time(since I don't see the practices, I cannot comment about what happens at practice), on rare occasions;

#2 - either Andre Dawkins or Matt Jones (or both) have to get substantial minutes for the skill sets that they each present;

#3 - MPIII has to play AND EARN 15 minutes per game +/- during this part of the schedule in order to determine whether his SIZE and hustle and potential shot blocking are more beneficial to the team than not.

#4 - If Amile Jefferson and/or MPIII do not develop in the 5th spot, it will be very difficult to get past the Elite Eight - and then what do we do.

But here is the thing. Coach K has brought so much pleasure to each and every Duke fan and to the university that whatever he chooses to do, I am fine with. He is The Man and is far more than a great basketball coach.

Don't know where this year's journey will end up, BUT I intend to enjoy the ride and watch what "chess" moves Coach K will make. Will I moan and groan - YES!! Will I first guess and second guess - YES!! BUT I will never forget that we DUKIES have the best coach and the best program - and I am fine with that!!
And I support each and every one of our players

LETS GO DUKE - LETS BEAT MICHIGAN!!

[Saratoga2]

I completely agree that right now Parker is the best suited to play the position. And I also agree that that's an unfortunate thing because we really don't want him playing there. But I felt the original poster was making the point that playing Hairston at C was preferrable to Jefferson for defense sake. If that wasn't the intented point, I'm sorry. But if it was, then I'm disagreeing. Neither guy is a good option for the 5, but if I have to take one over the other I'll take my chances with Amile over Josh at that position. Just saying.

Frankly, I'd like to see us run Andre out there on Tuesday as our starter at SG. I think we do lose too much on offense with Tyler, and right now Rasheed really is in a slump. Andre is a 5th year senior and I think it would be worth a shot. We'll see how things shake out between now and then and what changes are made.

When Redick played shooting guard, he was constantly on the move and worked for his shot. Andre does not move as much and doesn't get himself open for the shot. If he is to be a major threat, he needs to work harder to get open.

[FireOgilvie]

It will be interesting to see if our "continuous weeks in the top 10" streak will end. I don't think we're actually a top 10 team RIGHT NOW, but we've only lost to highly-ranked teams.

[Gthoma2a]

It will be interesting to see if our "continuous weeks in the top 10" streak will end. I don't think we're actually a top 10 team RIGHT NOW, but we've only lost to highly-ranked teams.

No 2 loss team is in the top 20, so I am betting the streak ends this week. We'll probably settle about where UNC is. Also, not to harp, but let's not let ourselves off too easily. Kansas just lost to Villanova. That is not exactly comforting with our losses to both top 25 teams we have played and the near loss to Vermont.

[Goduke2010]

If you look at games last year, we typically performed better in the 2nd half (in terms of score differential). This year I think it's the opposite. I'm curious as to why.

My theory is that the combination of minutes played by the "core" guys, plus our play style on O and D, are killing legs. If someone were able to analyze shooting/free throw/rebounding percentages by player by point in the game, I'd really be interested to see if that theory stands up.

I'm wondering if all the burn on D - which doesn't appear to be doing much in terms of turnovers - is worth its impact on our shooting/defending/rebounding in the 2nd half. And if it's not worth it, but our staff ignores common sense, I wonder if they'd at least consider using our supposedly "deep" bench like we were promised.

[TexHawk]

No 2 loss team is in the top 20, so I am betting the streak ends this week. We'll probably settle about where UNC is. Also, not to harp, but let's not let ourselves off too easily. Kansas just lost to Villanova. That is not exactly comforting with our losses to both top 25 teams we have played and the near loss to Vermont.

'Nova isn't ranked today, but they will be on Monday, that's a 4-6 seed easily. Tough, veteran players. And KU still plays 6 freshman a lot of minutes, so you will get some highs (Duke) and lows (tonight). I wouldn't freak out over that, you can play the we lost-they looked like crap game all night.

[Goduke2010]

The most frustrating thing to me tonight, while I watched the Duke loss to Arizona in person at MSG, is that we could have and should have beaten Arizona. I remember Coach K saying at his press conference after the Kansas game that one reason Duke lost that game is that Duke did not take advantage of the possibilities that existed in the first half, thus not having as big a lead as we should have had while we had the upper hand.

Well, AZ seems clearly a better team than Duke, so don't agree we should have beaten them.

Look, this is a flawed team. There's no doubt that a lack of competent size is a potentially crippling blow. At the beginning of th season, the hope was that a wave of talented wing players would nail their threes and exhaust the opponent's bigs come crunch time. The problem is - at least so far - we have 2 very talented wings who alternate good games, and very little by way of a supporting cast. Look down our roster, who do you see changing that? With the possible exception of Matt, they are who they are...

[BigZ]

It seems likely the te hits a wall after 30 minutes in every game

[MCFinARL]

Before someone corrects me, I made a math boo-boo. We played 7 deep (Jefferson got 19, Sulaimon 24), not 6. The point remains the same, though slightly less emphatically: when the going gets tough, Coach K is going to trim the rotation dramatically.

You beat me to it. Dawkins was actually the 8th man, credited with 4 minutes in the box score. (I would have guessed it was closer to 5 or 6 for what that is worth).

But the point does, indeed, remain the same. We have seen this short bench approach forever; it's either the right thing to do or not the right thing to do (but of course it is hard to tell since we don't ever test the alternative). As others have suggested in this thread, it might have been worth giving Andre a little more play tonight since the offense was struggling; he was one for one after the shot he finally got to take at the end of the game. He got more play against Alabama, but his shot was off that night. And it might have been worth giving Matt Jones more time, or Marshall or Semi, or Alex for that matter. But that didn't happen, and it's probably not going to--if one of those players gets significantly more time in any close or challenging game, it's most likely going to be because someone else has been demoted to "why didn't [x] get more time tonight?" status.

We always talk about how Coach K adapts and shapes his strategy to match his team. That is true to a great extent, of course, and an obvious strength. But it has its limits. If this year's team is one that would be most effective going 9 deep, that may be an adaptation Coach K is not willing to make.

[SoCalDukeFan]

We had 11 assists, AZ had 18.

I would like to see more "drive and dish" as opposed to "drive and force something up even though I am double or triple teamed."

If Amile is not going to play defense, then we might as well play Marshall.

Coach K has his work cut out for him. Some teams are limited by talent. This team has plenty of talent. The parts right now are greater than the whole, hopefully we will see in the not too distant future the whole greater than the sum of the parts.

SoCal

[Goduke2010]

You beat me to it. Dawkins was actually the 8th man, credited with 4 minutes in the box score. (I would have guessed it was closer to 5 or 6 for what that is worth).

We always talk about how Coach K adapts and shapes his strategy to match his team. That is true to a great extent, of course, and an obvious strength. But it has its limits. If this year's team is one that would be most effective going 9 deep, that may be an adaptation Coach K is not willing to make.

Coach K seems enamored with experience, to the extent it seems impossible for any but the most talented of new players to get much playing time. I thought a (paraphrased) quote by Rodney after Semi's big game was interesting: "Some of us were shocked when he took those shots." It's all about pecking order, and unless you're an insane talent like Jabari or Kyrie, pecking order is largely based on seniority. It sometimes appears that a known - lesser - quantity (Hairston, Thornton) is preferable to the unknown (Jones, Semi), despite the lack of upside with that risk-averse approach.

Having said that, perhaps our bench simply isn't as deep as we all hoped, given that two of our presumed starters - Sheed and Amile - have underperformed relative to expectations. I think if those two were performing well, maybe we wouldn't be wondering why Hairston and Thorton are getting so much playing time.

[Saratoga2]

You beat me to it. Dawkins was actually the 8th man, credited with 4 minutes in the box score. (I would have guessed it was closer to 5 or 6 for what that is worth).

But the point does, indeed, remain the same. We have seen this short bench approach forever; it's either the right thing to do or not the right thing to do (but of course it is hard to tell since we don't ever test the alternative). As others have suggested in this thread, it might have been worth giving Andre a little more play tonight since the offense was struggling; he was one for one after the shot he finally got to take at the end of the game. He got more play against Alabama, but his shot was off that night. And it might have been worth giving Matt Jones more time, or Marshall or Semi, or Alex for that matter. But that didn't happen, and it's probably not going to--if one of those players gets significantly more time in any close or challenging game, it's most likely going to be because someone else has been demoted to "why didn't [x] get more time tonight?" status.

We always talk about how Coach K adapts and shapes his strategy to match his team. That is true to a great extent, of course, and an obvious strength. But it has its limits. If this year's team is one that would be most effective going 9 deep, that may be an adaptation Coach K is not willing to make.

In the AZ pregame I asked the question

1. With Jabari such a big part of the offense, what happens if team help more on him and slow him down offensively?

Two more questions come out of that game

2. With the team playing more aggressive defense and more pressure being applied to our scorers, what happens when they get fatigued at the end of the game or during the game?

3. Can this team adjust to play the drive and dish offense and get more motion in play to utilize their 3 point shooters.


To question 1 we can see that coach K feels that it was better to stick with who he feels provides better defense than to open up other options with Matt, Andre, Semi or Alex.

To question 2, coach K did little substitution of our key players who seemed gassed near the end of the game where the defense seemed to fall apart. Little or no Marshall, Alex or Semi to give a blow to what seemed to be a fatigued Jabari and Rodney.

To question 3, we went with Rasheed, who did some good things but is in an off period. If we do more subbing with Matt, Andre and Semi, we would have fresher legs in the game and perhaps add some offensive punch. One thing to note though is that these guys need to move without the ball and our other players need to be willing to dish the ball off to them.

Coach K needs to find a little more help from a talented bench to give this team that additional edge needed to win the big games.

[oldnavy]

Lots of good posts on the breakdown of this game and our areas for improvement. I want to make just a couple of general comments:

- I agree that this was not a bad loss. Arizona is a really GOOD team and Miller is a really good coach.

- I liked seeing the zone, surprise! We got one stop out of it and then we gave up at least one easy basket as well. To me this was not the game nor team to pull it out on, but at least Coach K used it which I find very encouraging. This says to me two things, first we have it and they have been working on it in practice, and second, they need to keep working on it. Zona, adjusted quickly to it, but again at least we have it to run on a possession or two just to shake things up when we face "that" team that has a break-you-down PG that we can't keep out of the paint.

- Refs?? I don't have any idea what is going on anymore. Just when you think you have the new "emphasis" figured out, then this game. SMH. No way am I blaming the refs for this loss, but anyone who has watched the games before this one has to be wondering the same thing, what exactly are the refs doing this year? Was this game allowed to be played more physical because it was a National Spotlight game, and a "whistle fest" like we have been seeing would be boring to watch?? I dunno. The no call on the over the back by the Zona big guy just blew my mind and I scared the mess out of my wife and dog!

- I like this team, and I think that they have a very high ceiling. They are a work in progress, but we have the pieces, and K is the man at putting puzzles together. I am not discouraged at all at this point. We bounced back after the ECU and Vermont games, and played much better defense. It is clear that this group is able to learn from their mistakes, so mistakes against really good teams in November, may pay dividends in March. I really look forward to seeing what these kids can do in January going forward.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

This Duke team is struggling defensively inside. It's going to be an issue all season.

I think Hairston is your man there, at least for now. He's a good, strong defender, blocks out well, and rebounds.
If he was 6'10 he'd be a stopper and get enough garbage points to own that spot.

Jefferson is too weak to bang in the post against big time teams at this point. He has some upside, he'll just have to grow into it. We are having the same issue with Brice Johnson to get him more playing time.

There are a lot of talented big guys on the best teams. Finding ways to defend them is everybody's problem.

Offensively, Duke will be fine. Parker's post moves are as good as his shooting touch.

Cook just has to settle down some and get a better feel for this new team and Hood has to look to take over some leadership at times to give Parker some rest.

It's way early in the season.

[BD80]

When Redick played shooting guard, he was constantly on the move and worked for his shot. Andre does not move as much and doesn't get himself open for the shot. If he is to be a major threat, he needs to work harder to get open.

Completely different offense. With JJ, we would set multiple screens to get him open (he couldn't create his own shot). Andre's role is to spot up where his teammates can rely on where he is (don't move!) so they can drive off the high ball screen and dish.


You beat me to it. Dawkins was actually the 8th man, credited with 4 minutes in the box score. (I would have guessed it was closer to 5 or 6 for what that is worth).

But the point does, indeed, remain the same. We have seen this short bench approach forever; it's either the right thing to do or not the right thing to do (but of course it is hard to tell since we don't ever test the alternative). As others have suggested in this thread, it might have been worth giving Andre a little more play tonight since the offense was struggling; he was one for one after the shot he finally got to take at the end of the game. He got more play against Alabama, but his shot was off that night. And it might have been worth giving Matt Jones more time, or Marshall or Semi, or Alex for that matter. But that didn't happen, and it's probably not going to--if one of those players gets significantly more time in any close or challenging game, it's most likely going to be because someone else has been demoted to "why didn't [x] get more time tonight?" status.

We always talk about how Coach K adapts and shapes his strategy to match his team. That is true to a great extent, of course, and an obvious strength. But it has its limits. If this year's team is one that would be most effective going 9 deep, that may be an adaptation Coach K is not willing to make.

What troubles me is that Amile and Josh are part of that 7 man rotation. We can stop pretending they play the 5, Jabari defends the post, but these two can't defend or rebound or score from the 4. In three years, neither Alex nor Marshall have developed enough to earn minutes in place of the performances by Josh and Amile? We are getting killed at the four spot and yet Josh and Amile are still our best options ... to me this will be this year's team's limiting factor. It is not hopeless, remember how Zoubek blossomed in conference play his senior year?

[Furniture]

Boxscore (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=209326539)

Duke shot 35.7% in 2nd half and 4-14 from 3-pt for the game.

Two starters, Josh and Tyler, played a total of 43 minutes and had only 2 points total.

Amile was 0-3 at the FT line; Arizona shot well from the line, 21-26 overall.

If K is going to rely with TT and JH then at least he should not play them both together. As one poster said, given his record on previous losses will he change the starting line up? How will he motivate some of the players that come in?

[Matches]

- I liked seeing the zone, surprise! We got one stop out of it and then we gave up at least one easy basket as well. To me this was not the game nor team to pull it out on, but at least Coach K used it which I find very encouraging. This says to me two things, first we have it and they have been working on it in practice, and second, they need to keep working on it. Zona, adjusted quickly to it, but again at least we have it to run on a possession or two just to shake things up when we face "that" team that has a break-you-down PG that we can't keep out of the paint.

- Refs?? I don't have any idea what is going on anymore. Just when you think you have the new "emphasis" figured out, then this game. SMH. No way am I blaming the refs for this loss, but anyone who has watched the games before this one has to be wondering the same thing, what exactly are the refs doing this year? Was this game allowed to be played more physical because it was a National Spotlight game, and a "whistle fest" like we have been seeing would be boring to watch?? I dunno. The no call on the over the back by the Zona big guy just blew my mind and I scared the mess out of my wife and dog!


I don't see the zone as being a feasible approach for anything other than a possession here and there to confuse other teams (and even then it will only work on teams that are easily confused). I thought we immediately became passive on defense when we switched to it. K's no fool, though - he can recognize the benefit of zone principles. They are heavily incorporated into our switching MTM, to the point that my untrained eyes thought we were playing zone a few times when we were not.

And agreed, the reffing was... interesting. Certainly not the same as we've seen in most other games this year. Totally agree it's not why we lost, and the game seemed to be called fairly on both ends, but it was a LOT more physical than most games this year have been allowed to be.

I'm not too down about this one, all things considered. We lost a competitive game to a very good team. I felt much worse after the Vermont game. Defense is not there yet but is improving, and the offensive issues that surfaced in this game are easily correctible with our personnel.

[NYBri]

The first half was really good. Two teams going at it at a very high level. 'Zona made some adjustments and executed. We simply didn't have an answer.

Michigan in CIS.

[hillsborodevil]

- I liked seeing the zone, surprise! We got one stop out of it and then we gave up at least one easy basket as well. To me this was not the game nor team to pull it out on, but at least Coach K used it which I find very encouraging. This says to me two things, first we have it and they have been working on it in practice, and second, they need to keep working on it. Zona, adjusted quickly to it, but again at least we have it to run on a possession or two just to shake things up when we face "that" team that has a break-you-down PG that we can't keep out of the paint.



Congrats to Arizona.

True story Oldnavy- if Duke doesn't play MP3 in spot minutes then zone may help the team rest on defense. With the new rules with charge/blocking going with a zone may be effective at times. I understand K is all about man to man, but many last night I would see after switch-ups either Hood or Parker defending the low post. Not a good recipe for Duke. It takes away too much energy from their offense.

As others have stated Josh and TT playing together is a huge weakness. Duke's offense is 3 on 5 ball when both are in. Just plain crazy.

With the personnel Duke is playing the conference season will wear and tear Parker and Hood.

[ChrisP]

Here's what I see:

Lots of potential
Loads of talent
Lots of effort

Here's what I don't see (yet?): A team.

I see a group of talented, hard-working, well-meaning young men playing hard but not necessarily smart. Not necessarily playing together. But here's the another thing I see: My calendar still says "November". Sure, Marshall is not going to suddenly "get it" or start playing 20 minutes per game and Okafor is not going to be suiting up for another year, and so...in order to be elite and contend for a FF or NC, this team has a lot to learn and some big strides to make. I hope that by mid-January, we'll all be talking about how much they've improved and how this group of kids is playing really, really well together and is in the driver's seat for a #1 seed. But I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Like others here, I'm sometimes puzzled by K's seeming unwillingness to let certain players learn "on the job", I sometimes scratch my head at his substitution pattern (hey, Rasheed, you just made a couple great plays out there! Now, come have a seat on the bench.) But I also know what I don't know and I don't know anything about who's hurt, got the sniffles, been dogging it in practice, etc. We have K and we also have Wojo, Capel, Nate, and a guy named Scheyer who knows a little something about being a winner on the coaching staff. I am sure they all see the flaws we've seen and will do their best to correct them. Either the guys will start playing more like a team or...they won't. I hope they do just as much as the next fan, but I've watched enough basketball to have my doubts that this group will ever become a truly great Duke team. I've been wrong before. Let's hope I am again :)

[Troublemaker]

lol at this thread

In the Vermont postgame, I defended the criticism as being mostly reasonable. I think this Arizona postgame thread falls short of that, however.

Let's bump this thread back to the top in a couple of months. It'll be interesting re-reading.

[Faison1]

- Refs?? I don't have any idea what is going on anymore. Just when you think you have the new "emphasis" figured out, then this game. SMH. No way am I blaming the refs for this loss, but anyone who has watched the games before this one has to be wondering the same thing, what exactly are the refs doing this year? Was this game allowed to be played more physical because it was a National Spotlight game, and a "whistle fest" like we have been seeing would be boring to watch?? I dunno. The no call on the over the back by the Zona big guy just blew my mind and I scared the mess out of my wife and dog!

Yep....everyone in my house was asleep for that one. Also, the block/charge call on Tyler Thornton. I felt he was in pretty good position. That, too, was a loud reaction.


- I like this team, and I think that they have a very high ceiling. They are a work in progress, but we have the pieces, and K is the man at putting puzzles together. I am not discouraged at all at this point. We bounced back after the ECU and Vermont games, and played much better defense. It is clear that this group is able to learn from their mistakes, so mistakes against really good teams in November, may pay dividends in March. I really look forward to seeing what these kids can do in January going forward.

Duke had their chances. Unfortunately, whenever a chance would come about, we would either miss a free-throw, not block out on a rebound, or miss a defensive assignment. There was a short moment in the early part of the 2nd half where I felt Duke had a chance to end the game. But, IIRC, Amile missed his free-throws, then UA seized momentum with a 10-0 run in 1:08.

The weaknesses are easy to see. K will correct them though. Otherwise, this will be a tough season. What's concerning, though, is that our most effective post defender seems to be JP. He was matched up against Tarzewski when things got tight. That HAS to wear on him through a long season. Someone's gonna need to step it up, or I fear we'll see a Singler type burnout by game 25.

[hudlow]

From King's write-up about the game on the front page....

"Here's the thing about the Arizona game: we'd rather claim this loss than the win over Vermont."

We who?

hud

[Faison1]

From King's write-up about the game on the front page....

"Here's the thing about the Arizona game: we'd rather claim this loss than the win over Vermont."

We who?

hud

Agreed. Not sure what they meant by that. I certainly wasn't thrilled over losing to Arizona. The game was a bit sobering to me. Hopefully sobering to the players as well.

[lotusland]

Look, this is a flawed team. There's no doubt that a lack of competent size is a potentially crippling blow. At the beginning of th season, the hope was that a wave of talented wing players would nail their threes and exhaust the opponent's bigs come crunch time. The problem is - at least so far - we have 2 very talented wings who alternate good games, and very little by way of a supporting cast. Look down our roster, who do you see changing that? With the possible exception of Matt, they are who they are...

duke is not going to be great team down low either on offense or defense this year. To play to our strength we need throw our battalion of 6'8 wings at the opponent and force them to adapt to our game. I like half court offense personally but this team is built to run.

[Duvall]

Agreed. Not sure what they meant by that. I certainly wasn't thrilled over losing to Arizona. The game was a bit sobering to me. Hopefully sobering to the players as well.

Thrilled is a bit much to ask, but this was a vastly superior result to the Vermont game.

[lumberbaron]

guess they forced us into some of those bad turnovers and botched defensive switches?

or was it the rebounds they forced us to miss....or maybe they duped jabari into missing shots

In my opinion the three biggest issues

1) the inability to produce good shots consistently on one end, leading to turnovers and missed shots...jabari, as good as he is, was a bit of a black hole...with his amount of shots, to have 1 assist is absurd...the whole team was guilty of not passing effectively all game...so much dribbling and driving...so we got killed when we ran into their big guys....getting them lots of blocks, lots of turnovers, and us lots of missed shots.

2) the failure of the defense to execute switches appropriately, often resulting from or resulting in a lack of stopping the ball handler at the perimeter...it was layup/dunk city during their big run in the second half

3) failure to rebound (size difference?)


Disagree. Blaming Parker is the LAST thing anybody should be doing. Sure he took a couple of ill advised shots, but when you see him making great post moves and finishing and knocking down 20 footers off the bounce, you have to realize he's so good that he can take pretty much any shot he wants, especially because the rest of the offense outside of Hood is struggling. Basically we look like a 2 man team out there. Outside of Hood and Parker we kinda look like hot garbage (don't censor me, I'm just calling it like I see it!).

1. Sheed--stop trying to make the NBA every time you touch the rock. I feel like he's forcing so much because he feels he has something to prove--best way to prove it is to let the game come to you! Concentrate on hitting open 3's off of Hood and Parker touches, driving lanes will open up after that. Feels like he's working so hard to try to get by his man that by the time he's at the hoop he has no lift and he's getting swatted or missing the shot (reminds me a little of pre-senior year Demarcus Nelson). That's not the Sheed I remember from last year.

2. Jefferson--First of all, PLEASE make a free throw!!! Second of all, I'm not even sure what to say, because frankly you look a little lost out there. I loved the Jefferson of last year who was great on the offensive boards and a good defender. I'd like to see that guy again. Remember the Kansas game when you took 7 footers out on the perimeter and then beat them off the dribble? You're telling me you couldn't have done that to that big oaf from Arizona?! Stick with what works!!!

3. Cook--You're allowed to play well in the second half too. Stop mugging after every made basket and hanging your head after every turnover. You've shown you can hit the 3 and beat guys off the dribble, act like you've done it before and get back on defense!! Stop pouting!! Time to show some mental toughness buddy, you got this, now start acting like it!!

Hairston and Thornton just keep doing what you're doing and try to not foul too much. These guys know their role and do their best to play it.

Everyone else, start earning it so we can see you on the court more! Look, the guys above have not been as effective as we'd like them to be, so there's definitely minutes that are ripe to be earned. And Cook, Jefferson and Sheed--you've done it before and you can do it again, just relax and start playing your game, the game that got you here in the first place. Stop trying to do too much, leave that to Hood and Parker. Let it come to you and the points will be there.

[_Gary]

When Redick played shooting guard, he was constantly on the move and worked for his shot. Andre does not move as much and doesn't get himself open for the shot. If he is to be a major threat, he needs to work harder to get open.

I understand all that and don't disagree with you. I wasn't comparing Andre to JJ though. I was talking about this team, at this moment in the season. I simply said that given Tyler's lack of offense and Rasheed's slump, I'd like to see Andre given starter's minutes for at least one game to see what it would do for the team right now. Nothing greater than that should be read into my statement. :)

[dukelifer]

Lots of good posts on the breakdown of this game and our areas for improvement. I want to make just a couple of general comments:

- I agree that this was not a bad loss. Arizona is a really GOOD team and Miller is a really good coach.

- I liked seeing the zone, surprise! We got one stop out of it and then we gave up at least one easy basket as well. To me this was not the game nor team to pull it out on, but at least Coach K used it which I find very encouraging. This says to me two things, first we have it and they have been working on it in practice, and second, they need to keep working on it. Zona, adjusted quickly to it, but again at least we have it to run on a possession or two just to shake things up when we face "that" team that has a break-you-down PG that we can't keep out of the paint.

- Refs?? I don't have any idea what is going on anymore. Just when you think you have the new "emphasis" figured out, then this game. SMH. No way am I blaming the refs for this loss, but anyone who has watched the games before this one has to be wondering the same thing, what exactly are the refs doing this year? Was this game allowed to be played more physical because it was a National Spotlight game, and a "whistle fest" like we have been seeing would be boring to watch?? I dunno. The no call on the over the back by the Zona big guy just blew my mind and I scared the mess out of my wife and dog!

- I like this team, and I think that they have a very high ceiling. They are a work in progress, but we have the pieces, and K is the man at putting puzzles together. I am not discouraged at all at this point. We bounced back after the ECU and Vermont games, and played much better defense. It is clear that this group is able to learn from their mistakes, so mistakes against really good teams in November, may pay dividends in March. I really look forward to seeing what these kids can do in January going forward.

I think the refs swallowed the whistle because of the very late start. This had an impact on the game- but it did not decide it. Duke needs to share the ball much more. That needs to be the next point of emphasis.

[Faison1]

Thrilled is a bit much to ask, but this was a vastly superior result to the Vermont game.

Using "Thrilled" is just a habit. Probably wrong word to use.

Coming into the game, I guess I had convinced myself we had solved some of our defensive problems. So, when we lost in the second half of the second half, I was pretty disappointed. Maybe "Disappointed" would have been a better word.

Having said that, I just scrolled through the In-Game thread and was reminded of some good stuff: The last time Duke lost 2 games in November was 1999. J-Will, Boozer, and company looked pretty ragged. IIRC correctly, they opened the season against Stanford and UConn, lost them both. I wondered what the rest of the season would turn out to be. It turned out pretty good.

[left_hook_lacey]

much of the difference was garbage time

I agree. We were intentionally fouling in the last minute or so, otherwise, the free throw total would be a lot closer.

We got the benefit of a lot of calls in the first half, Arizona seemed to be the benefactor in the second. Calls usually seem to even out over the course of a game. This one was no different. It's easy to point fingers at officiating to explain away things we can't or don't want to admit. We got beat. They are better than us right now.

With all that being said, I do find it maddening that this game wasn't called as closely as the Kansas game. And it's not just this game, every game I watched yesterday lacked the "no contact on drivers/slashers" that was supposed to be a point of emphasis this year. I really don't have a preference between the new rules or the old rules, I just want consistency. How can players and coaches adapt to new rules if they don't know what is going to be called from game to game?

And after all the discussion of the block/charge in college basketball and a change in the rules, it would appear that nobody knows what exactly constitutes a charge or block. I've heard the explanations of the new rules every game, but have yet to see it called consistently for a whole game. If I was a player, I wouldn't know what in the world to do if I saw an out of control player coming towards me in the lane. I'd be scared to take the charge, and scared not to. Maddening.

One more thing. As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, I hope this puts the bed those who are opining to run some zone defense. We looked as lost as a Tarheel in an African-American studies classroom. I'm sure if Coach K wanted to run zone and worked on it, we could get good at it, but it was obvious last night we have not been working on it. And it appeared Arizona was licking it's chops we went to it.

Oh, and two more hours until we take the field and send Carolina to hell, and accept our rightful spot in the ACC championship game. 9F

[uh_no]

Disagree. Blaming Parker is the LAST thing anybody should be doing. Sure he took a couple of ill advised shots, but when you see him making great post moves and finishing and knocking down 20 footers off the bounce, you have to realize he's so good that he can take pretty much any shot he wants, especially because the rest of the offense outside of Hood is struggling. Basically we look like a 2 man team out there. Outside of Hood and Parker we kinda look like hot garbage (don't censor me, I'm just calling it like I see it!).


not sure who was 'blaming' parker....jabari was complicit in the loss just like the rest of the team...

if JJ happened went 1-20 from the floor and we lost a game, I would say he contributed to the loss...just like jabari did tonight....is it a reflection of him as a person or a player? no it just means he had a bad game and it contributed to the loss....other people can have a hand in it too, and they certainly did last night...it's a team game

that said, jabari had 1 assist and 5 turnovers....now I don't expect the guy to put up hurley numbers, but I expect him to realize when he is NOT going to get "any shot he wants" and is going to get shots he cannot easily make, and in those situations, realize his best bet is to hit the teammate who the double team opened up....he's done it before to great success, but for some reason that stopped happening last night

you can't say "the rest of the offense is struggling" and then completely exonerate a guy who had half our turnovers, wasn't moving the ball around, and who shot 15% worse from the floor than the rest of the team....

he's a great player, he can score in a lot of ways, and this team is going nowhere without him, but the team also might go nowhere if he played like he did last night....he's gotta learn to get it done with the context of the team, to allow his teammates to get involved, else we're going to see more games like last night on the offensive end.....in some ways he needs to be thinking like a point guard..."do I score here, or do i use my amazing skills to get someone an even better shot"


everyone has things they need to work on, even someone as awesome as jabari....if you construe that as "blaming" him for the loss, good on ya'!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

not sure who was 'blaming' parker....jabari was complicit in the loss just like the rest of the team...

if JJ happened went 1-20 from the floor and we lost a game, I would say he contributed to the loss...just like jabari did tonight....is it a reflection of him as a person or a player? no it just means he had a bad game and it contributed to the loss....other people can have a hand in it too, and they certainly did last night...it's a team game

that said, jabari had 1 assist and 5 turnovers....now I don't expect the guy to put up hurley numbers, but I expect him to realize when he is NOT going to get "any shot he wants" and is going to get shots he cannot easily make, and in those situations, realize his best bet is to hit the teammate who the double team opened up....he's done it before to great success, but for some reason that stopped happening last night

you can't say "the rest of the offense is struggling" and then completely exonerate a guy who had half our turnovers, wasn't moving the ball around, and who shot 15% worse from the floor than the rest of the team....

he's a great player, he can score in a lot of ways, and this team is going nowhere without him, but the team also might go nowhere if he played like he did last night....he's gotta learn to get it done with the context of the team, to allow his teammates to get involved, else we're going to see more games like last night on the offensive end.....in some ways he needs to be thinking like a point guard..."do I score here, or do i use my amazing skills to get someone an even better shot"


everyone has things they need to work on, even someone as awesome as jabari....if you construe that as "blaming" him for the loss, good on ya'!
Also wouldn't hurt if one of the coaches pointed out to him... Hey, you're drawing double and triple teams. That's great. Don't force it. Look for the pass to the open shooter.

[roywhite]

Also wouldn't hurt if one of the coaches pointed out to him... Hey, you're drawing double and triple teams. That's great. Don't force it. Look for the pass to the open shooter.

I don't doubt that the coaches will point it out to him and that Jabari will learn lessons from this loss. I'm more worried whether his teammates make the shots.

[lumberbaron]

not sure who was 'blaming' parker....jabari was complicit in the loss just like the rest of the team...

if JJ happened went 1-20 from the floor and we lost a game, I would say he contributed to the loss...just like jabari did tonight....is it a reflection of him as a person or a player? no it just means he had a bad game and it contributed to the loss....other people can have a hand in it too, and they certainly did last night...it's a team game

that said, jabari had 1 assist and 5 turnovers....now I don't expect the guy to put up hurley numbers, but I expect him to realize when he is NOT going to get "any shot he wants" and is going to get shots he cannot easily make, and in those situations, realize his best bet is to hit the teammate who the double team opened up....he's done it before to great success, but for some reason that stopped happening last night

you can't say "the rest of the offense is struggling" and then completely exonerate a guy who had half our turnovers, wasn't moving the ball around, and who shot 15% worse from the floor than the rest of the team....

he's a great player, he can score in a lot of ways, and this team is going nowhere without him, but the team also might go nowhere if he played like he did last night....he's gotta learn to get it done with the context of the team, to allow his teammates to get involved, else we're going to see more games like last night on the offensive end.....in some ways he needs to be thinking like a point guard..."do I score here, or do i use my amazing skills to get someone an even better shot"


everyone has things they need to work on, even someone as awesome as jabari....if you construe that as "blaming" him for the loss, good on ya'!

Not sure where you get the "reflection of him as a person" crap, you're allowed to say somebody had a rough game without damaging their character. And we're allowed to disagree.

My point is this: Expecting Parker to shoot 60% every game is unrealistic. He has shown that he can hit very tough shots. Do I love every one of those shots that he takes? No, I do not. However, I'm willing to take the good with the bad, because I still think him taking a tough shot is better than relying on other guys who are struggling more and making, in my opinion, worse decisions. I get what you're saying, you'd like to see him dish a few more. OK, that may be true. But, realize the coaching staff has given him carte blanche because he's our best offensive option. I'd rather him do that than see Sheed drive into the teeth of the defense every time he touches it.

Plus he was shooting 60% from 3 for the season. He's due to have a night where he goes 0-5 behind the 3 pt line. Does that mean he should stop shooting 3's?

I don't blame Parker because if other guys step up their game marginally we don't have depend on him to the best player in college basketball every single game. He's forcing things and taking tough shots because other guys aren't stepping up.

Basically, you saying "I'd like to see him do X and Y" better is nitpicking the best player in college basketball so far this year (except for maybe Marcus Smart).

[uh_no]

I don't doubt that the coaches will point it out to him and that Jabari will learn lessons from this loss. I'm more worried whether his teammates make the shots.

quinn rasheed and andre have all proven themselves quite capable shooters...if we lose with those guys taking uncontested jumpers all game, I'm okay with that.

[uh_no]

Basically, you saying "I'd like to see him do X and Y" better is nitpicking the best player in college basketball so far this year (except for maybe Marcus Smart).

guess we should just say "good show, ol' chap" and not even bother having him show up at practice, since apparently any form of criticism is nitpicking?

he's a teenager and a freshman...to pretend that there is NOTHING he does worthy of improving is unfathomable.

i'm sure that's what lebron does every day, too "well I'm the best player in the NBA, so nobody is allowed to point out anything I can work on to do better"


turns out when you're THAT good, it's the small things, what you consider "nit-picks," that you work on to make you great

[roywhite]

quinn rasheed and andre have all proven themselves quite capable shooters...if we lose with those guys taking uncontested jumpers all game, I'm okay with that.

Yeah, I get that. I guess my point is the desirability of having 5 offensive weapons on the floor much of the time. Or at least 4.

I still have visions of the Davidson game dancing in my head; hope we haven't seen the last of that level of offensive potency.

[dukelifer]

not sure who was 'blaming' parker....jabari was complicit in the loss just like the rest of the team...

if JJ happened went 1-20 from the floor and we lost a game, I would say he contributed to the loss...just like jabari did tonight....is it a reflection of him as a person or a player? no it just means he had a bad game and it contributed to the loss....other people can have a hand in it too, and they certainly did last night...it's a team game

that said, jabari had 1 assist and 5 turnovers....now I don't expect the guy to put up hurley numbers, but I expect him to realize when he is NOT going to get "any shot he wants" and is going to get shots he cannot easily make, and in those situations, realize his best bet is to hit the teammate who the double team opened up....he's done it before to great success, but for some reason that stopped happening last night

you can't say "the rest of the offense is struggling" and then completely exonerate a guy who had half our turnovers, wasn't moving the ball around, and who shot 15% worse from the floor than the rest of the team....

he's a great player, he can score in a lot of ways, and this team is going nowhere without him, but the team also might go nowhere if he played like he did last night....he's gotta learn to get it done with the context of the team, to allow his teammates to get involved, else we're going to see more games like last night on the offensive end.....in some ways he needs to be thinking like a point guard..."do I score here, or do i use my amazing skills to get someone an even better shot"


everyone has things they need to work on, even someone as awesome as jabari....if you construe that as "blaming" him for the loss, good on ya'!
Criticism comes with being a big time player. If that is what Jabari aspires to - he will deal with much worse. My guess is that he will take it out on Michigan.

[lumberbaron]

guess we should just say "good show, ol' chap" and not even bother having him show up at practice, since apparently any form of criticism is nitpicking?

he's a teenager and a freshman...to pretend that there is NOTHING he does worthy of improving is unfathomable.

i'm sure that's what lebron does every day, too "well I'm the best player in the NBA, so nobody is allowed to point out anything I can work on to do better"


turns out when you're THAT good, it's the small things, what you consider "nit-picks," that you work on to make you great

C'mon man, you're still missing the point! Do you think the Heat focus on what Lebron needs to do better? Really?

Where did I say I thought he was perfect? I said I'm willing to live with the mistakes he makes, which I'm sure he and the coaching staff will try to improve on, because he's still the best option we have. If you want to look for how this team should improve, I don't think you should focus on the things Parker needs to do better, I think you should look at other players and other areas. Some of Parker's mistakes happen because he is forcing the action. Why is he forcing the action? Because other players have, so far, proven incapable of doing so.

If you fix the other players, I think the criticisms you have of Parker will fix themselves because he won't have to force the action and take bad shots and turn the ball over. Fix the Chevy that won't start before you worry about how to get the Ferrari from 180 MPH to 190 MPH, know what I mean?

[uh_no]

Yeah, I get that. I guess my point is the desirability of having 5 offensive weapons on the floor much of the time. Or at least 4.

I still have visions of the Davidson game dancing in my head; hope we haven't seen the last of that level of offensive potency.

gotcha. and ideally, when you have those threats on the floor, jabari doesn't need to pass out so often since the defense won't be able to hedge as much on the double team.

[uh_no]

C'mon man, you're still missing the point! Do you think the Heat focus on what Lebron needs to do better? Really?

Where did I say I thought he was perfect? I said I'm willing to live with the mistakes he makes, which I'm sure he and the coaching staff will try to improve on, because he's still the best option we have. If you want to look for how this team should improve, I don't think you should focus on the things Parker needs to do better, I think you should look at other players and other areas. Some of Parker's mistakes happen because he is forcing the action. Why is he forcing the action? Because other players have, so far, proven incapable of doing so.

If you fix the other players, I think the criticisms you have of Parker will fix themselves because he won't have to force the action and take bad shots and turn the ball over. Fix the Chevy that won't start before you worry about how to get the Ferrari from 180 MPH to 190 MPH, know what I mean?

well, if i was driving the ferrari as heavily as this offense is riding parker, I'd consider any improvement I could get.

you can fix the rest of the team all you like, but when the guy with the ball isn't giving up the ball, it doesn't help much.

two sides of the same coin, really. other guys need to work harder to be viable targets for jabari, and jabari needs to work harder to get them the ball when he doesn't have an open shot or is getting swamped on the double team.

[lumberbaron]

well, if i was driving the ferrari as heavily as this offense is riding parker, I'd consider any improvement I could get.

you can fix the rest of the team all you like, but when the guy with the ball isn't giving up the ball, it doesn't help much.

two sides of the same coin, really. other guys need to work harder to be viable targets for jabari, and jabari needs to work harder to get them the ball when he doesn't have an open shot or is getting swamped on the double team.

Here's the other side of that coin :)--I think the other players need to work harder on getting open, etc. Parker's a stud with great vision and high basketball IQ, he'll find them. I think they're standing around and watching him and Hood and not doing enough to help themselves.

It's a free country and this is the internet, we're all entitled to our opinions and can express them freely. I just think the problem isn't Parker, even with the (small) flaws in his game you're pointing out. And I think the "mechanic" is better off spending his time fixing our Chevies.

[trailblaze]

Quinn Cook is not the answer and unfortunately neither is Tyler. We need a point guard that actually creates easy opportunities for others. Getting assists off of 3 pointers does not add a lot to the team. Marshall needs to start and play big minutes. If we only get defense, rebounds and blocks with the occasional put back i'll take it. The guy is 7 foot has a big vertical and has been in the program now for over 2 years. It's time to play him unless we have another 7 footer in the closet. lineup: Plumlee, Parker, Sheed, Hood,Jefferson. I thought we were going to run this year? Not much running happening so far.

[Kedsy]

C'mon man, you're still missing the point! Do you think the Heat focus on what Lebron needs to do better? Really?

Where did I say I thought he was perfect? I said I'm willing to live with the mistakes he makes, which I'm sure he and the coaching staff will try to improve on, because he's still the best option we have. If you want to look for how this team should improve, I don't think you should focus on the things Parker needs to do better, I think you should look at other players and other areas. Some of Parker's mistakes happen because he is forcing the action. Why is he forcing the action? Because other players have, so far, proven incapable of doing so.

If you fix the other players, I think the criticisms you have of Parker will fix themselves because he won't have to force the action and take bad shots and turn the ball over. Fix the Chevy that won't start before you worry about how to get the Ferrari from 180 MPH to 190 MPH, know what I mean?

I'm going to agree with Uh_No on this one. I'll go further and say a lot of our defensive weaknesses are due to Jabari playing D as an individual and not part of a team. He gets the spectacular blocks and steals, but when he tries for those or plays center-field looking for those opportunities, he often hangs his teammates out to dry on the defensive end.

On offense, I hear you that our best player should be our highest usage player, but last night to me Jabari looked like he didn't really trust his teammates and that he wanted to win the game by himself, which against a team like Arizona is more or less impossible. To be fair, Rodney, Quinn, and Rasheed also looked like they were trying to win the game by themselves, but as our best player it falls to Jabari to set the example. If the others see him sharing the ball and playing a well-rounded game, they'll probably start doing the same.

[Kedsy]

Quinn Cook is not the answer and unfortunately neither is Tyler. We need a point guard that actually creates easy opportunities for others.

Well, who do you suggest we play as an alternative? Based on your preferred lineup, I'd guess you want Rasheed to be our PG. You really think he'll create more easy opportunities for others than Quinn?


Marshall needs to start and play big minutes. If we only get defense, rebounds and blocks with the occasional put back i'll take it. The guy is 7 foot has a big vertical and has been in the program now for over 2 years. It's time to play him unless we have another 7 footer in the closet.

I get that he hasn't had many minutes on the floor, small sample size and all that, but what has Marshall ever done that suggests to you that he could be inserted into the lineup right now for 20 minutes a game and "get defense, rebounds and blocks"?


lineup: Plumlee, Parker, Sheed, Hood,Jefferson.

If we see this lineup for even five minutes total over the course of the season, I'll be very surprised.

[lumberbaron]

I'm going to agree with Uh_No on this one. I'll go further and say a lot of our defensive weaknesses are due to Jabari playing D as an individual and not part of a team. He gets the spectacular blocks and steals, but when he tries for those or plays center-field looking for those opportunities, he often hangs his teammates out to dry on the defensive end.

On offense, I hear you that our best player should be our highest usage player, but last night to me Jabari looked like he didn't really trust his teammates and that he wanted to win the game by himself, which against a team like Arizona is more or less impossible. To be fair, Rodney, Quinn, and Rasheed also looked like they were trying to win the game by themselves, but as our best player it falls to Jabari to set the example. If the others see him sharing the ball and playing a well-rounded game, they'll probably start doing the same.

Sigh, OK, you're right. The problem with this team is definitely Parker being a ball hog (notice sarcasm).

Why should he trust them? I don't trust them. You think Cook and Sheed are making better decisions right now and creating more scoring chances? Until a few players get their you know what together, our offense is stand around and watch Parker and Hood try to do something. That's not Hood and Parker's fault.

Honestly, if he'd have made 2 of those 3 pointers and gone 11/21 instead of 7/21 would any of you guys be saying this? He missed some shots, shots he's made for the most part so far this year.

Are there things he could improve on? Of course! But that is not what is ailing this team and that is not what this team needs to focus on to get better. He's doing his part and then some. Other guys need to step up.

[Kedsy]

Sigh, OK, you're right. The problem with this team is definitely Parker being a ball hog (notice sarcasm).

Thanks for pointing out the sarcasm. And I totally said that Jabari is a ball hog and that's the problem on the team, so I appreciate your accurate portrayal of my remarks.

If you want Jabari to go one-on-five every possession, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Duke won't win so many games that way, though.

[BD80]

... I get that he hasn't had many minutes on the floor, small sample size and all that, but what has Marshall ever done that suggests to you that he could be inserted into the lineup right now for 20 minutes a game and "get defense, rebounds and blocks"?... .

Relative to what Amile and Josh have done, how couldn't he? He's a 7' center who is in his THIRD year in the program, developing strength and learning how to play Duke defense.

[Kedsy]

Relative to what Amile and Josh have done, how couldn't he? He's a 7' center who is in his THIRD year in the program, developing strength and learning how to play Duke defense.

So far, in limited minutes, while his block rate is pretty decent, Marshall's rebound rates are poor (much worse than Amile's) and his defensive positioning appears a bit slow (slower than Josh, who has been rotating pretty well compared to our other big defenders). Couple that with the fact that Coach K doesn't seem to think he's ready for big minutes suggests to me that Marshall might not provide the rebounding and defense we would need from him in a 20-minute role. Obviously with so few game minutes under his belt, we can't know for sure either way.

[dukelifer]

Relative to what Amile and Josh have done, how couldn't he? He's a 7' center who is in his THIRD year in the program, developing strength and learning how to play Duke defense.

I expect Marshall to get some more time. But he has been injured for a LOT of those years. He is far behind this year because of losing the summer.

[JPtheGame]

Theres a real danger here of this team becoming like the teams from the JJ Redick years. Coach K would often comment that those teams would fall into JJ watching as they sort of stood around and waited for JJ to save the day. The only difference here is they have two shows to watch, Jabari and Rodney who seem to just take turns. Lets chalk it up to youth and anticipate that this team will learn to play off of and with each other.

[DevilYouthCoach]

because different refs are slightly different, and the rules are so ambiguously worded that no two people could possibly call the game exactly the same way



Also, because this was being played between two high powered teams in Madison Square Garden before a big national audience and it was, therefore, supposed to entertain the masses. Ergo, "let them play!"

[JPtheGame]

As for the interior problem, i think we already have a serviceable player. His name is Jamarshall Hairleeson. He's an intriguing player who measures between 6'7 and 7'1 and is given 15 fouls a game. Rotate those 3 at the 5, tell them to be aggressive as possible, create energy, make effort plays and just know that as they foul out, there's a next man up waiting to come in. Id run them through 3-4 minutes at a time and tell them to go like hell while they are in.

[dcdrumsinc]

I'm more of a realist than an optimist, so this may rub some people the wrong way

I hope I am wrong, but this team has 1st or second round exit written all over it unless we really get better by the end of the season. Before you crucify me for saying that, realize that other teams also have the potential to get better.

I don't see leadership with this team. No one stands out, even though the individual talent is there.

Josh Hairston and Tyler Thornton playing that heavy of minutes and being non factors on the offensive end make it that much harder for Parker or Hood to get any easy baskets. It's cake for other teams when they can just ignore Hairston who is only good for setting screens 25 feet away from the basket. I don't like to question Coach K's strategies because he obviously is the master, but having amile jefferson (who is too talented) or josh hairston to set screens so high up on the offense does nothing for them to be threats. Time and time again I would see amile set a really high ball screen and that's it. While Zona's bigs would set screens and roll to the bucket after setting the screen to get post position. It was pretty blatant the obvious difference in offenses between us and zona.

Again I am a realist. This team is not gonna grow any bigger by the end of the season. Length, athleticism, and teams with just as much/if not more, talent than us will put us away. I don't think we deserve to be in the top 5 any time soon.

My last observation. Why does the offense start so high????? Is it the players not executing or that's the game plan? Cook or whomever are always going backwards and starting the plays so high. Players are catching the ball on the wing far beyond the three line and not in slashing or driving position/threat. Zona was attacking vertically and really carving us up because they don't start the offense so high.

[DevilYouthCoach]

We needed 80 points to be assured of a win.

Personally I have never been a huge fan of Thornton, although who could not be impressed by his spirit and energy. This is not the first season in which teams have simply laid off him on offense -- but his offense has never improved in all four years. IMHO I think Coach K has kind of identified with Thornton as a player -- a kid probably a lot like he was himself as a player -- tough minded, relentless worker, hard-nosed, full of energy, good defender, negligible offense. Trouble is that at this level (Coach K only played at Army, recall) that sort of talent is of limited help to the team. Everybody on a championship team has to pull considerable weight on both sides of the ball, or else they will ultimately be as much a weakness as a strength. We can all think of apparent exceptions to this idea -- e.g., a person such as Zoubek who had one huge strength that counterbalanced his many shortcomings for a time. And I suspect that Coach K thought that Thornton would continue to improve as a player -- I don't think so. I believe that his spirit is important to team morale, but I would love to see other players given more time to improve.

[wilko]

Any one else notice the Stunning young woman sitting behind the Announcers Shulman I think... Off his left shoulder with the long brown hair? I didnt hear a WORD they said when she was on camera.


I saw some youthful growing pains. A shot here or there... we are in the thick of it...It was a high level performance even IF it was a loss. Its early - so I'm disappointed but not despondent.

[DBFAN]

As much as I hate losing there are 2 very positive things to lean on here. First of all the D for 90% of the game was light years better than it was against ECU and Vermont. When the pressure got a little heavy the D fell apart. That will get better with time

The Second thing is this. When,( and yes I am saying when, not if) Sheed gets back to being Sheed the complexity of this team changes drastically. Right now im guessing it's the sophomore slump. It appears to be mental more than anything. If he gets back to avg just 10 pts a game they will become a very very tough team to defend. Unfortunately we just have to be patient and listen to all the haters say junk about us, but a lot of Duke teams have been lead by upperclassmen and have a lot of success early in the year, only to peak too early and not make much progress later on. This team is being lead by 2 new players, and I fully expect them to be playing their best ball in March.

Plus one more positive, we just beat UNC in Football and are the Coastal Div champs, so while not a perfect weekend, not a bad one either

[rocketeli]

I think a "few" other posters have said this but even though I am not the winningest coach in Men's NCAA Div I basketball, nor do I get to watch every practice etc., I wonder if starting Hairston and Thornton is sacrificing long term development for (possible) short term gains. Frankly, and this doesn't mean that they are not good basketball players overall, they are the least athletic and talented players on the team. It's disappointing, because it seems as if they coaching staff had the opportunity for a high-flying, rapid-scoring, many-player-rotation team, and got scared by a couple of predictable early struggles to implement it and got back in their comfort zone.
It's good to reflect here also, that although we say things like "we need to do more on defense" as if this was a consequence-free option, every thing actually comes with an (opportunity) cost. There is only so much energy and time in games and practices, and a focus on one thing means that other things have to be sacrificed.

[BD80]

So far, in limited minutes, while his block rate is pretty decent, Marshall's rebound rates are poor (much worse than Amile's) and his defensive positioning appears a bit slow (slower than Josh, who has been rotating pretty well compared to our other big defenders). Couple that with the fact that Coach K doesn't seem to think he's ready for big minutes suggests to me that Marshall might not provide the rebounding and defense we would need from him in a 20-minute role. Obviously with so few game minutes under his belt, we can't know for sure either way.

I understand this rationale completely. But have Josh or Amile shown the capacity to become the players we need in the post? Even if they get better at what they do, can they do enough to be sufficient for us to make a deep run in March? Maybe we'll win a lot of games with them, but do we really have a good chance to beat any team with a big, talented front court? We're likely to come up against at least one before the final four.

My frustration is with how ineffective Josh and Amile have been on BOTH ends of the court. How bad must Marshall be in practice that he can't get some PT, when he has a much higher upside and legitimate post height? This is the guy who was once the best player in practice :rolleyes:

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I understand this rationale completely. But have Josh or Amile shown the capacity to become the players we need in the post? Even if they get better at what they do, can they do enough to be sufficient for us to make a deep run in March? Maybe we'll win a lot of games with them, but do we really have a good chance to beat any team with a big, talented front court? We're likely to come up against at least one before the final four.

My frustration is with how ineffective Josh and Amile have been on BOTH ends of the court. How bad must Marshall be in practice that he can't get some PT, when he has a much higher upside and legitimate post height? This is the guy who was once the best player in practice :rolleyes:
It was telling that K essentially said in his post game comments that we don't have a center. MP3 can't be happy to hear that. Maybe it will motivate him?

[Kedsy]

I'm more of a realist than an optimist, so this may rub some people the wrong way

What kind of rubs me the wrong way is when people call themselves "realists" in order to present their negative opinions as more valid. What makes your opinion that "this team has 1st or second round exit written all over it" real in any way? To me, what's real is that we played top 5 Kansas even until the last couple minutes of the game and played top 5 Arizona even until the last few minutes, as well. The fact that both opponents managed a spurt near the end that we couldn't counter could mean many things, but your "realist" conclusions don't seem particularly self-evident to me.

[Kedsy]

I understand this rationale completely. But have Josh or Amile shown the capacity to become the players we need in the post?

Amile has for the most part rebounded well. He's actually top 25 in the ACC in both offensive rebounding percentage and defensive rebounding percentage. His defense hasn't yet been stellar (quite the opposite, in my opinion) but we saw him play pretty good D last year, so the capacity presumably is there. Similarly, he has only blocked one shot this season, but last season his block percentage was adequate. And as a sneaky post scorer and garbage collector, he's pretty good, with a fairly strong oRtg of 115+. He's committing 6.5 fouls per 40, so he's not staying on the court so well, but overall I do believe he could be exactly who we need in the post, especially if all he has to do is guard the other team's PF (with Jabari guarding the C). I also don't know if Marshall has more upside than Amile; Amile has a fair amount of upside in my opinion.

Josh has rotated well and played decent positional defense. His rebounding thus far has been very poor and in his career even his best rebounding seasons have been subpar for a big man. He's never been a threat to block shots and his offense is sporadic. I'd think that if Coach K thought Marshall could match Josh's defense then Marshall would eat into Josh's minutes, but obviously based on practice, etc., K doesn't think that.

[Wander]

Amile has for the most part rebounded well. He's actually top 25 in the ACC in both offensive rebounding percentage and defensive rebounding percentage.

That really does not sound like a ringing endorsement.

[Des Esseintes]

I don't see leadership with this team. No one stands out, even though the individual talent is there.


I love it when people start talking about the leadership they can and cannot see through a television screen.

[BD80]

What kind of rubs me the wrong way is when people call themselves "realists" in order to present their negative opinions as more valid. What makes your opinion that "this team has 1st or second round exit written all over it" real in any way? To me, what's real is that we played top 5 Kansas even until the last couple minutes of the game and played top 5 Arizona even until the last few minutes, as well. The fact that both opponents managed a spurt near the end that we couldn't counter could mean many things, but your "realist" conclusions don't seem particularly self-evident to me.

Sometimes I type with a lisp. I meant "real idiot" not "realist."

We could have easily won either game with the way we played. Make more free throws (particularly the 1st of 1 and 1s) and we could beat Kansas. Two of our shots - 5 points - during the Az run were halfway down and spun out, and a Wildcat shot was such a brick it crashed to the floor, giving Az an easy rebound and score. We shouldn't have won either game, but we could well have won both games.

[CDu]

That really does not sound like a ringing endorsement.

I would say that suggests he is about average as a rebounder.

[uh_no]

What kind of rubs me the wrong way is when people call themselves "realists" in order to present their negative opinions as more valid. What makes your opinion that "this team has 1st or second round exit written all over it" real in any way? To me, what's real is that we played top 5 Kansas even until the last couple minutes of the game and played top 5 Arizona even until the last few minutes, as well. The fact that both opponents managed a spurt near the end that we couldn't counter could mean many things, but your "realist" conclusions don't seem particularly self-evident to me.

i think part of that stems from the culture of conversations here, where often it feels if you DON'T pick duke to win everything every time, you got some 'splaining to do. Therefore, when people present any opinion that is not super optimistic, they feel it needs to be qualified as 'realistic' as opposed to what is often predicted here (like that we would win by 20 last night...and one need not look past the predictions thread for further confirmation). In this case, it would seem that his views are perhaps overly pessimistic, but not necessarily invalid. I do think that saying "this team is a shoe in for the final four and will win the natty" is not by any means realistic either AT THIS POINT.

the team we've seen thus far is realistically a sweet 16 or elite 8 team (remember you'd have to BEAT one of the top 8 teams in the country (possibly higher) (on average) to reach the final 4). can things change? yep. do I expect this team to get a lot better? yep. do i have a crystal ball? nope. but I think in general, the 'realistic' view is somewhere between the optimists and the pessimists.

of course everyone should think their view is a realistic view....so stating it is a bit redundant anyway. I'm just saying why someone might feel the need to qualify their opinion as such here.

[DeBlueDevil]

So far, in limited minutes, while his block rate is pretty decent, Marshall's rebound rates are poor (much worse than Amile's) and his defensive positioning appears a bit slow (slower than Josh, who has been rotating pretty well compared to our other big defenders). Couple that with the fact that Coach K doesn't seem to think he's ready for big minutes suggests to me that Marshall might not provide the rebounding and defense we would need from him in a 20-minute role. Obviously with so few game minutes under his belt, we can't know for sure either way.

Kedsy although you know your stuff, sometimes you come off as a know it all haha I respect it though. Just made me feel that way with your criticism of "realists"

And I'm officially dubbing you the head of the anti-Marshall Plumlee club because you never want to ever see him get minutes and possibly develop. None of us are saying the kid is Wilt Chamberlain but simply sayin he could help matters. As I've been saying I trust there's a reason K hasn't played him so I'm kind of contradicting myself here. But I do feel that he could help and he's not as bad as your stats and criticisms of him being so lost suggest. I watched him last night and he didn't look any more out of place or lost than josh and amile did in his limited time IMO. I'd just like to see the kid actually play and perhaps gain confidence or get comfortable. Hard to do that on the bench. And if he turns out to be a disaster I'd happily come back and say "boy Kedsy you were right on, you're a pure Michael Smith from ESPN, numbers never lie" haha

[vick]

I hope I am wrong, but this team has 1st or second round exit written all over it unless we really get better by the end of the season. Before you crucify me for saying that, realize that other teams also have the potential to get better.

I don't think you should be 'crucified' for saying this, but most Final Four teams, let alone Sweet 16 teams, have worse blemishes on their November/December resumes than neutral-court losses to top-10 teams. I'm not really sure why the idea that you can predict a single-elimination tournament with that sort of precision months in advance persists in spite of evidence, and frankly logic, arguing otherwise.

[Goduke2010]

I think a "few" other posters have said this but even though I am not the winningest coach in Men's NCAA Div I basketball, nor do I get to watch every practice etc., I wonder if starting Hairston and Thornton is sacrificing long term development for (possible) short term gains. Frankly, and this doesn't mean that they are not good basketball players overall, they are the least athletic and talented players on the team. It's disappointing, because it seems as if they coaching staff had the opportunity for a high-flying, rapid-scoring, many-player-rotation team, and got scared by a couple of predictable early struggles to implement it and got back in their comfort zone.
It's good to reflect here also, that although we say things like "we need to do more on defense" as if this was a consequence-free option, every thing actually comes with an (opportunity) cost. There is only so much energy and time in games and practices, and a focus on one thing means that other things have to be sacrificed.

Yeah, I've mentioned the same thing about sacrificing potential upside to go with the players that give us the best chance to win in the short-term. My guess is that the coaches - as the losses and close calls pile up - will come to the conclusion that status-quo leads to an early tourney exit. Seems clear to me that our current starting five - even after another few months of playing together - caps out at S16 or best case E8. If that's not good enough, may as well get high-potential player(s) involved now. Maybe that leads to an early exit, too, but maybe not.

[CDu]

It was telling that K essentially said in his post game comments that we don't have a center. MP3 can't be happy to hear that. Maybe it will motivate him?

Wow, that is a pretty big slap in the face. Very unlike Coach K to drop such a thinly-veiled shot at his own player to the media.

[Goduke2010]

Kedsy although you know your stuff, sometimes you come off as a know it all haha I respect it though. Just made me feel that way with your criticism of "realists"

And I'm officially dubbing you the head of the anti-Marshall Plumlee club because you never want to ever see him get minutes and possibly develop. None of us are saying the kid is Wilt Chamberlain but simply sayin he could help matters. As I've been saying I trust there's a reason K hasn't played him so I'm kind of contradicting myself here. But I do feel that he could help and he's not as bad as your stats and criticisms of him being so lost suggest. I watched him last night and he didn't look any more out of place or lost than josh and amile did in his limited time IMO. I'd just like to see the kid actually play and perhaps gain confidence or get comfortable. Hard to do that on the bench. And if he turns out to be a disaster I'd happily come back and say "boy Kedsy you were right on, you're a pure Michael Smith from ESPN, numbers never lie" haha

I look at Marshall's potential through the lens of a 3rd-year player who doesn't sniff the floor, despite an overwhelming need for size. Unless Coach K has a personal grudge against MP, it's hard to imagine him not getting on the floor unless he's just really not a good player. IMO, 3 years is plenty of time to know if a player can play or not.

[SheltonBob]

This is an historic day for the Duke football program. I am as devoted a fan of Duke basketball as anyone - having watched my first Duke game in 1975 and been to many huge games since.

BUT TODAY IS A DAY TO ENJOY THE PIGSKIN - so in honor of the football team, lets enjoy its day and analyze basketball tomorrow.

[Goduke2010]

Wow, that is a pretty big slap in the face. Very unlike Coach K to drop such a thinly-veiled shot at his own player to the media.

Didn't hear that comment, but if true, probably says all we need to know about MP seeing the floor anytime soon.

Just don't understand how MP can be that bad, given his brothers' performance. But hell, I have two daughters, one is pretty athletic and one is a bit of a klutz. So guess it happens. A shame, I'm sure the staff would have prioritized adding a big or two in the 50 - 100 range the past couple of years if they had known how little MP would be able to contribute. Feel bad for him, too, I'm sure he's trying his best.

[uh_no]

Didn't hear that comment, but if true, probably says all we need to know about MP seeing the floor anytime soon.

Just don't understand how MP can be that bad, given his brothers' performance. But hell, I have two daughters, one is pretty athletic and one is a bit of a klutz. So guess it happens. A shame, I'm sure the staff would have prioritized adding a big or two in the 50 - 100 range the past couple of years if they had known how little MP would be able to contribute. Feel bad for him, too, I'm sure he's trying his best.

his brothers each took 2-3 years to be effective. It appears that marshall is in a similar boat. That said, I'm not sure why what his brothers did should have any effect on what marshall does...just because they're brothers doesn't mean they are the same basketball player.

This year, as opposed to when his brothers were around, though, there are several other talented players fighting for time.

[Kedsy]

That really does not sound like a ringing endorsement.

There are 15 teams in the ACC. Amile is 17th in OR%, meaning he's near the top of the group of teams' 2nd rebounders. He's 23rd in DR%, which means he's in the middle of the group of 2nd rebounders. Especially considering that after the first two games he only had two rebounds, he's been rebounding pretty well since then.

That is not to say I think Amile is an elite rebounder, but as the team's 2nd rebounder (behind Jabari), he's doing a good enough job that I don't see the need to replace him (as many are suggesting) with someone who might be able to "rebound and play defense."


I do think that saying "this team is a shoe in for the final four and will win the natty" is not by any means realistic either AT THIS POINT.

I agree. Personally I don't think there will ever be a time when you can say "this team is a shoo-in for the Final Four and will win the natty" and be realistic. I'm just saying if someone has an unsupported opinion, let him/her say it's an unsupported opinion. Don't pretend it's more than it is by claiming to be a realist or claiming to espouse hard truths that some people aren't going to like.

[nyesq83]

Oh, is it basketball season?:rolleyes:

[slower]

None of us are saying the kid is Wilt Chamberlain

Well, if nobody else will, I'll say it:

Marshall Plumlee IS Wilt Chamberlain!

Next issue. :D

[Kedsy]

And I'm officially dubbing you the head of the anti-Marshall Plumlee club because you never want to ever see him get minutes and possibly develop.

Totally untrue. I'm rooting hard for the kid and absolutely want to see him on the floor. But there's a difference between wanting something and thinking it should happen right away or thinking that it's going to happen right now. If a 7-footer can be a contributor, you put him on the floor. If Coach K hasn't put him on the floor, it must mean he doesn't think Marshall's ready, a view somewhat reinforced by his performance in the few minutes he's been out there.

For now, Marshall is going to have to develop in practice. And that may be the real area where you and I disagree (or it may not, I don't really know for sure). I think players can develop in practice without necessarily getting a lot of game minutes.

[dukelifer]

Wow, that is a pretty big slap in the face. Very unlike Coach K to drop such a thinly-veiled shot at his own player to the media.

Not sure he said that. He said something to the effect that we have the team we have and cannot go out and sign a guy. I am not sure it was intended as a slap - rather we need to figure it out with the guys we have

[Kedsy]

Well, if nobody else will, I'll say it:

Marshall Plumlee IS Wilt Chamberlain!

Next issue. :D

It's possible. Have you ever seen the two of them in the same place at the same time?

[dukelifer]

Totally untrue. I'm rooting hard for the kid and absolutely want to see him on the floor. But there's a difference between wanting something and thinking it should happen right away or thinking that it's going to happen right now. If a 7-footer can be a contributor, you put him on the floor. If Coach K hasn't put him on the floor, it must mean he doesn't think Marshall's ready, a view somewhat reinforced by his performance in the few minutes he's been out there.

For now, Marshall is going to have to develop in practice. And that may be the real area where you and I disagree (or it may not, I don't really know for sure). I think players can develop in practice without necessarily getting a lot of game minutes.

Also helps to stay out of a boot - which has been an issue for Marshall

[CDu]

Not sure he said that. He said something to the effect that we have the team we have and cannot go out and sign a guy. I am not sure it was intended as a slap - rather we need to figure it out with the guys we have

The quote I have seen specifically referred to not having a center. If it wasn't his intent to say we don't have a center, seems like a strange way to go about it.

[BD80]

Well, if nobody else will, I'll say it:

Marshall Plumlee IS Wilt Chamberlain!

Next issue. :D

So he has already been with a couple thousand women?

[Kedsy]

So he has already been with a couple thousand women?

Just yesterday.

[uh_no]

Just yesterday.

rumor is he's picking up all the women just off of tough breakups.....I think he misinterpreted when coach said "marshall, we need to you pick up a few more rebounds"

[dukelifer]

It's possible. Have you ever seen the two of them in the same place at the same time?

Plumlee's intro song- 1966 classic Ain't too proud to beg. What kid picks that. Wilt was in his prime in '66. Very possible indeed.

[slower]

Plumlee's intro song- 1966 classic Ain't too proud to beg. What kid picks that. Wilt was in his prime in '66. Very possible indeed.

Although, Wilt would NEVER identify with that song.

Okay, I'm thinking we need to work up a spec script and sell it to Hollywood:

Mild-mannered white kid inhabited by spirit of NBA great, saves the season for his hoops team. It's -

TEEN WILT!

[ncexnyc]

I understand all that and don't disagree with you. I wasn't comparing Andre to JJ though. I was talking about this team, at this moment in the season. I simply said that given Tyler's lack of offense and Rasheed's slump, I'd like to see Andre given starter's minutes for at least one game to see what it would do for the team right now. Nothing greater than that should be read into my statement. :)
Sorry, but we don't need Chef K. to feature a Starter de Jour on his menu.

[BD80]

rumor is he's picking up all the women just off of tough breakups.....I think he misinterpreted when coach said "marshall, we need to you pick up a few more rebounds"

Awesome. Leads to soooo many more quips that cannot be expressed here ...

[dukelifer]

Although, Wilt would NEVER identify with that song.

Okay, I'm thinking we need to work up a spec script and sell it to Hollywood:

Mild-mannered white kid inhabited by spirit of NBA great, saves the season for his hoops team. It's -

TEEN WILT!

Just caught the last few minutes of a movie where a 16 year old kid trades basketball talents with Kevin Durant. Yes- it was as bad as it sounds.

[slower]

Just caught the last few minutes of a movie where a 16 year old kid trades basketball talents with Kevin Durant. Yes- it was as bad as it sounds.

Crap! Always a step behind.

[uh_no]

Just caught the last few minutes of a movie where a 16 year old kid trades basketball talents with Kevin Durant. Yes- it was as bad as it sounds.

isn't that kinda like the plot to space jam? but with kevin durant instead of MJ, and a 16 year old instead of looney tunes and aliens?

yeah that does sound kind of bad...

[Wander]

There are 15 teams in the ACC. Amile is 17th in OR%, meaning he's near the top of the group of teams' 2nd rebounders. He's 23rd in DR%, which means he's in the middle of the group of 2nd rebounders. Especially considering that after the first two games he only had two rebounds, he's been rebounding pretty well since then.

That is not to say I think Amile is an elite rebounder, but as the team's 2nd rebounder (behind Jabari), he's doing a good enough job that I don't see the need to replace him (as many are suggesting) with someone who might be able to "rebound and play defense."


I'm someone who voted for Jabari as the guy who plays the most center this season in that thread with that poll, so you don't need to convince me. But I thought most people expected Amile to be the starting "center," which is traditionally the position with the most rebounds. Which means his rates really don't indicate a good rebounder. If we're collectively admitting that Jabari is the team's primary rebounder, then I guess that's a different story, but I'd agree with CDu's assessment that (so far) he's been average in that area.

[Newton_14]

Here is the annoying thing to me. When we have a team like last year, that comes out playing great and wins the big matchups in Nov/Dec, the nellies post "well we are as good as we are going to be". "can't get any better, we are who we are", but boy Kansas and Mich St and Kentucky and Arizona and "all those other teams", they are definitely going to improve throughout the season and they will all pass us, so no way we beat any of them in March"... Then we have a team like this season, with lots of new faces, youth, inexperience, but talented as hell, and they drop 2 close games in big matchups in Nov/Dec, and suddenly it becomes, "we may get better, but boy Kansas and Mich St, and Kentucky and Arizona and "all those other teams", they are definitely going to improve throughout the season and since they are already better than us now, even if we improve, there is no way we will beat them in March"...

Sorry you can't have it both ways. This team has a lot of talent and a high ceiling. I will be shocked if they do not get much better by the end of the year than they are right now. And "right now" despite all the flaws, they were right there with two Top 5 Teams with high FF potential. I would be much more disappointed if our guys had played as good as they could possibly play last night and still lost. That would be cause for concern. However, I would give them about a C+/B- score for last nights performance. The offense was no where near as good as it can be, and the defensive rotations were poor during key stretches.

There is much work to do both as individuals and as a cohesive unit. We have several players trying to figure out their roles and/or not playing close to their potential, and I personally believe the coaching staff is still trying to figure out how to deal with the new rules on both ends of the floor. That part should get better after we get more games under our belts and the staff can figure out what to expect from the refs from game to game.

It is far too early to be predicting their fate in March. Give them time to grow. As I recall the football team dropped a couple of games early in their season too. I wonder how many people predicted gloom and doom for their season too?

[trailblaze]

Well, who do you suggest we play as an alternative? Based on your preferred lineup, I'd guess you want Rasheed to be our PG. You really think he'll create more easy opportunities for others than Quinn?



I get that he hasn't had many minutes on the floor, small sample size and all that, but what has Marshall ever done that suggests to you that he could be inserted into the lineup right now for 20 minutes a game and "get defense, rebounds and blocks"?



If we see this lineup for even five minutes total over the course of the season, I'll be very surprised.

What he has done is grow to be 7 feet tall with well above average athletic ability playing a sport where the other team consistently has a bigger front court than us.

[davekay1971]

Right now I'm seeing three key points of development for our season:

1) Consistent defense: we're improving, but we have a long way to go. That's okay. That's what the regular season, and practice, are for.

2) Quinn needs to be the leader he can be. That means more consistent play, and a better emotional strength. The team feeds off Quinn, and he can help them out by making sure what they are channelling is his intensity...but also, when things get tough, a sense of confidence and composure. It's fine for Tyler, Dre, and Josh to be mature leaders...but Quinn is the quarterback on the floor, he's one of our most talented guys, and he has an intensity and a fire that can be infectious...good or bad.

3) Amile: we need him to be our man in the middle. He has the athleticism and length to be a threat to finish on the interior, to grab the boards, and to help against drivers to alter shots. I see so much promise in that kid. As Kedsy pointed out, he's not doing badly. But I think he can be a heck of alot better than okay.

Obviously, there are other things that can improve for us. Sheed has much more game than he's shown, and we all know it, as does he. Dre has already shown this season that his shot is sweetness in action. But I have faith that those guys are going to have their games, they're going to be weapons for us.

This team is going to develop and develop well. We're going to be a better team each month, and, frankly, I think our upside is better than almost any team in the nation.

[trailblaze]

So far, in limited minutes, while his block rate is pretty decent, Marshall's rebound rates are poor (much worse than Amile's) and his defensive positioning appears a bit slow (slower than Josh, who has been rotating pretty well compared to our other big defenders). Couple that with the fact that Coach K doesn't seem to think he's ready for big minutes suggests to me that Marshall might not provide the rebounding and defense we would need from him in a 20-minute role. Obviously with so few game minutes under his belt, we can't know for sure either way.

Quoting stats from a guy that plays garbage minutes at best is useless. Until he has a real sample size i.e. 4-5 games of greater than 20 min per I dont care what his stats say. As far as I'm concerned he is the only center we have and you play him no matter what unless he turns out to be absolutely horrendous which is unlikely if his primary responsibility is defense and rebounding. He could likely help our team with a stat line of 4 pts 8 rebs 2 blocks/contest.

[Newton_14]

Right now I'm seeing three key points of development for our season:

1) Consistent defense: we're improving, but we have a long way to go. That's okay. That's what the regular season, and practice, are for.

2) Quinn needs to be the leader he can be. That means more consistent play, and a better emotional strength. The team feeds off Quinn, and he can help them out by making sure what they are channelling is his intensity...but also, when things get tough, a sense of confidence and composure. It's fine for Tyler, Dre, and Josh to be mature leaders...but Quinn is the quarterback on the floor, he's one of our most talented guys, and he has an intensity and a fire that can be infectious...good or bad.

3) Amile: we need him to be our man in the middle. He has the athleticism and length to be a threat to finish on the interior, to grab the boards, and to help against drivers to alter shots. I see so much promise in that kid. As Kedsy pointed out, he's not doing badly. But I think he can be a heck of alot better than okay.

Obviously, there are other things that can improve for us. Sheed has much more game than he's shown, and we all know it, as does he. Dre has already shown this season that his shot is sweetness in action. But I have faith that those guys are going to have their games, they're going to be weapons for us.

This team is going to develop and develop well. We're going to be a better team each month, and, frankly, I think our upside is better than almost any team in the nation.

Good points. I will add one more, but I am sure there are several more key items. 4. Killer Instinct- This group does not have it yet. It is easier to sense it in person at home games, but even through the TV they seem to be too content with the smallest of leads. Like "Ok we are up 6 now, we are good". K hinted at this in the Vermont post-game presser. They have to mature enough to want to bury the opponent when they have them on the ropes. They had both Kansas and Arizona in that spot and did not go for the jugular. Had they gone into attack mode and executed at those points they would still be undefeated.

I guess I will add a 5th point (which goes hand in hand with point 4) which is Value Every Possession. Two very careless turnovers early in the 2nd half last night proved very costly when all was said and done.

Good news is, most all of these things are fixable and it is still November.

[jv001]

Right now I'm seeing three key points of development for our season:

1) Consistent defense: we're improving, but we have a long way to go. That's okay. That's what the regular season, and practice, are for.

2) Quinn needs to be the leader he can be. That means more consistent play, and a better emotional strength. The team feeds off Quinn, and he can help them out by making sure what they are channelling is his intensity...but also, when things get tough, a sense of confidence and composure. It's fine for Tyler, Dre, and Josh to be mature leaders...but Quinn is the quarterback on the floor, he's one of our most talented guys, and he has an intensity and a fire that can be infectious...good or bad.
3) Amile: we need him to be our man in the middle. He has the athleticism and length to be a threat to finish on the interior, to grab the boards, and to help against drivers to alter shots. I see so much promise in that kid. As Kedsy pointed out, he's not doing badly. But I think he can be a heck of alot better than okay.

Obviously, there are other things that can improve for us. Sheed has much more game than he's shown, and we all know it, as does he. Dre has already shown this season that his shot is sweetness in action. But I have faith that those guys are going to have their games, they're going to be weapons for us.

This team is going to develop and develop well. We're going to be a better team each month, and, frankly, I think our upside is better than almost any team in the nation.

# 2) Regarding Quinn as our leader. What I would like to see Quinn do is make a shot or dish for a layup or dunk and then get everyone to play defense on the next play. I don't want to see him "hot dogging" it while the other players run back down court. That's not the idea of a leader. Please go to the next play. Quinn could be so good but his personality/attitude is holding him back. I like Quinn but I just hate to see all that talent being wasted. GoDuke!

[MChambers]

The quote I have seen specifically referred to not having a center. If it wasn't his intent to say we don't have a center, seems like a strange way to go about it.
Does anyone have a link? Seems silly to worry about an unsourced quote.

[dukelifer]

isn't that kinda like the plot to space jam? but with kevin durant instead of MJ, and a 16 year old instead of looney tunes and aliens?

yeah that does sound kind of bad...

I think aliens trump a 16 year old. A teen wolf/space jam mash up.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Does anyone have a link? Seems silly to worry about an unsourced quote.
Main ESPN article... I don't think I'm reading too much into it. Seems odd to me.

"We talked all year about we don't have a center, and we have good players, and we have to figure out how to be good with the players we have," Krzyzewski said. "So I thought those kids played really well. I mean, I thought they played their hearts out."


http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400519873

[dukelifer]

isn't that kinda like the plot to space jam? but with kevin durant instead of MJ, and a 16 year old instead of looney tunes and aliens?

yeah that does sound kind of bad...

I think aliens trump a 16 year old. This was a teen wolf/space jam mash up.

[dukelifer]

Main ESPN article... I don't think I'm reading too much into it. Seems odd to me.

"We talked all year about we don't have a center, and we have good players, and we have to figure out how to be good with the players we have," Krzyzewski said. "So I thought those kids played really well. I mean, I thought they played their hearts out."


http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400519873

Well we could parse the meaning here and argue whether it was to slam Marshall- I think he was trying to deflect and simply say Duke has the players they have and the players played hard.

[CDu]

Well we could parse the meaning here and argue whether it was to slam Marshall- I think he was trying to deflect and simply say Duke has the players they have and the players played hard.

That is absolutely what he was saying. But that statement is inherently an indictment of Plumlee's ability/readiness.

[Furniture]

"We talked all year about we don't have a center, and we have good players, and we have to figure out how to be good with the players we have," Krzyzewski said. "So I thought those kids played really well. I mean, I thought they played their hearts out."

So K thought the kids played really well. I don't agree but I am glad that he said that. The question is what will the starting line up be on Tuesday. What does he have up his sleeve to improve the team?

[dukelifer]

That is absolutely what he was saying. But that statement is inherently an indictment of Plumlee's ability/readiness.

Perhaps- but for a chunk of the summer, Plumlee was hurt. So I think his readiness has been a question mark for a while. He is behind in development/conditioning.

[Des Esseintes]

Quoting stats from a guy that plays garbage minutes at best is useless. Until he has a real sample size i.e. 4-5 games of greater than 20 min per I dont care what his stats say. As far as I'm concerned he is the only center we have and you play him no matter what unless he turns out to be absolutely horrendous which is unlikely if his primary responsibility is defense and rebounding. He could likely help our team with a stat line of 4 pts 8 rebs 2 blocks/contest.

What do you think happens in practice? Do you think the coaching staff is unaware that height is an advantage in the game of basketball? How stupid do you think the coaches are that they would be leaving a 7 ft. solution on the bench if he was in fact ready? They see Marshall play against the other bigs EVERYDAY. Do you think you possess knowledge to which they are not privy?

[dyedwab]

....I find this thread startling. I've only looked at the box scores, read the quotes from Coach K, and seen the beat writers write up (I have a hard time watching highlights of games we lose :-)). So maybe it looked different to someone who watched the game. But here's what it looks like from only printed sources after the fact.

1) Duke lost by 6 to a team with Final Four potential. And, we led until midway through the 2nd half. That's not ideal, but not terrible.

2) Our best offensive player, Jabari Parker, has a bad shooting game. Our point guard only had 3 assists. We only had 3 players in double figures. So that suggests we had some offensive problems, yet we lost only by 6.

3) Our defense, which was terrible against Vermont, was not terrible against Arizona.

But apparently, a 6 point loss to Arizona is enough to have people completely deciding that this team's ceiling is lower than it was, that we have unsolvable problems etc. But right now, basically what it looks like is the team struggles offensively when Quinn has to pick up a bigger scoring load, Rasheed is in a huge slump on both sides of the ball, we need a third scoring option who isn't Quinn. And, as the players get better on defense, it won't be as necessary to have both Tyler and Josh on the floor at the same time so much.

[NSDukeFan]

So far, I count 1a,b,f,g,k,n,o,p,t;2k,m in this thread.
I have a possible addition for the next update. The team lost a game/ played poorly and this shows the team has a fatal flaw that means they can't advance past the sweet 16/elite 8 or whatever round.

Can I call myself a realist if I believe that a loss in November to a top 5 team, in which Duke led for about 30 minutes does not prevent this team from potentially having as good a chance as any of competing for a championship at the end of the year?

[trailblaze]

What do you think happens in practice? Do you think the coaching staff is unaware that height is an advantage in the game of basketball? How stupid do you think the coaches are that they would be leaving a 7 ft. solution on the bench if he was in fact ready? They see Marshall play against the other bigs EVERYDAY. Do you think you possess knowledge to which they are not privy?

Curious what "bigs" he is playing against in practice each day? Last time I checked a 6'8" guy weighing 215 was our center. Yes, I do posses knowledge to which they are not privy. They haven't measured Marshall in awhile. I like the use of CAPS.

[Troublemaker]

.And, as the players get better on defense, it won't be as necessary to have both Tyler and Josh on the floor at the same time so much.

Exactly. Some in this thread are acting like Coach K's long-term plan is to start Tyler at the 2 and Josh at the 5. In reality, he would love nothing more than for Sheed to seize that job. That's why Sheed started 33 games last season as a freshman instead of Tyler. That's why as soon as Sheed put together a good two-game stretch earlier this season, he was re-inserted into the starting lineup. Likewise with Josh vs Amile, Coach K raved about Amile in the offseason and began the season with Amile starting. But Sheed and Amile haven't played like they're capable of yet, and that's why they're coming off the bench for now.

I would be very surprised if Tyler and Josh don't eventually return to their bench roles. I suspect one of Sheed or Matt will become the regular starting 2 whose performance we'll be very happy with, and I suspect eventually one of Amile, Marshall, or Semi will become Jabari's main frontcourt partner and likewise will perform at a level that satisfies. Let the season breathe and develop.

In the meantime, though, of players who average more than 5 min/gm, Tyler leads them all in Plus Minus / 40. And on last year's team, he was #2 behind Ryan Kelly in Plus Minus / 40. The team plays better when he's on the court. That's why he gets minutes.

[jimsumner]

Curious what "bigs" he is playing against in practice each day? Last time I checked a 6'8" guy weighing 215 was our center. Yes, I do posses knowledge to which they are not privy. They haven't measured Marshall in awhile. I like the use of CAPS.

And if Plumlee struggles against Jefferson in practice, what does that suggest about his current ability to help Duke inside?

[hurleyfor3]

Can I call myself a realist if I believe that a loss in November to a top 5 team, in which Duke led for about 30 minutes does not prevent this team from potentially having as good a chance as any of competing for a championship at the end of the year?

The 1991 and 2010 teams say hi. (So do 1988 and 1990, for that matter.)

[CDu]

Perhaps- but for a chunk of the summer, Plumlee was hurt. So I think his readiness has been a question mark for a while. He is behind in development/conditioning.

Oh I'm not bashing Plumlee. I was one of the folks cautioning that he probably wouldn't make a big impact this year due to the offseason surgery. I just find it a strange thing for Coach K to be essentially saying Plumlee isn't a part of the team's plan. It's just not like Coach K to do that. He's usually bending over backwards to talk UP his players (as evidenced by his hyperbole about Marshall's status early last year, and his praise of Murphy in multiple preseasons).

As for Plumlee's conditioning, I don't think that's the issue. He's been healthy for months now, so presumably he's caught up on conditioning. Where he's suffered is in skill development, as the summer is when guys have a chance to really improve their games.

[trailblaze]

And if Plumlee struggles against Jefferson in practice, what does that suggest about his current ability to help Duke inside?

I'm not aware he "struggles" against Jefferson in practice, nor do I consider how he matches up against a wing as a determining factor in how he might help our team against other teams with true centers or power forwards, which Jefferson clearly is not.

[CDu]

I'm not aware he "struggles" against Jefferson in practice, nor do I consider how he matches up against a wing as a determining factor in how he might help our team against other teams with true centers or power forwards, which Jefferson clearly is not.

Jefferson is not a wing. He's a PF. He's not a C, either. He's a PF.

[Troublemaker]

The question is what will the starting line up be on Tuesday. What does he have up his sleeve to improve the team?

The starting lineup remaining the same on Tuesday, and Coach K working to improve the team, are not mutually exclusive.

[Edouble]

Here is the annoying thing to me. When we have a team like last year, that comes out playing great and wins the big matchups in Nov/Dec, the nellies post "well we are as good as we are going to be". "can't get any better, we are who we are", but boy Kansas and Mich St and Kentucky and Arizona and "all those other teams", they are definitely going to improve throughout the season and they will all pass us, so no way we beat any of them in March"... Then we have a team like this season, with lots of new faces, youth, inexperience, but talented as hell, and they drop 2 close games in big matchups in Nov/Dec, and suddenly it becomes, "we may get better, but boy Kansas and Mich St, and Kentucky and Arizona and "all those other teams", they are definitely going to improve throughout the season and since they are already better than us now, even if we improve, there is no way we will beat them in March"...

Sorry you can't have it both ways.

You're missing one piece here.

When we win the big November/December games, it's true that some folks (the "nellies", lol) do say "Well, we aren't going to get any better". The essence of the argument though, is that, in these games, while we do beat highly ranked teams, we do so with a limited cast. That's the crux of the argument! The nellies main issue, from my understanding, is that it is better to develop all of our players, at the cost of winning these games, in order to be a more dynamic, multi-faceted team come March. It's not that we win the games... it's that we win the games with what appears to be a set group of players that we are going to go with for the next 4-5 months, no matter what!

For example, a few years ago, I'm sure you'll remember, many people on this board were pretty excited about one Mr. Michael Gbinije. From the get go of the 2011-12 season, it was clear that we had a full stable of guards and a full stable of bigs, but many predicted that the lack of a wing sized player, particularly on the defensive side of the ball, might be our undoing. Sure enough, at the end of the season, there was an injury to Ryan Kelly, we had a short bench, and we got killed in the first round of the tourney by the type of player that demanded a quick, athletic wing to guard him. All the pro-Gbinije folks pointed back to their early season predictions.

So now, we actually find ourselves in a worse position. Not only is the team not developing any depth, we are not even winning these games!

I don't necessarily agree with the nellies stance, but it's not hard to see that we looked pretty gassed at the end of the game, with a full bench of fresh, pretty highly rated players. The rub, of course, is that we don't get a chance to see these players in action in practice, where the PT is earned. Making things even more confusing, however, is the occasional summer nugget we get from Coach K saying that certain players (Alex Murphy, Marshall Plumlee) are performing at a high level in these practices and are likely to see much time on the floor during games.

To add to the confusion, one of Coach K's nuggets from this past summer was that we are going to be a deeper team than usual. Now, once again, while it's not even December yet, we are playing with a limited group. Those players outside the usual suspects (starters + Amile, 'Sheed) appear to have the usual short leash!

What to make of all this?

I think that those same nellies (and I guess I might too), even if we had won this game, would still be saying:

-Can we get a look at Matt Jones? Dawkins? One of those guys might have game-changing shooting that could help us in March. Dawkins was on fire against FAU. Why doesn't he get some run in this one?
-Can Alex Murphy play? He's been in the system forever and would be perfect to spell both Parker and Hood, in short spurts, who appeared tired at the end of the game.
-What could MP3 do in 10-12 minutes of PT? We need better rebounding and interior defense. He's huge!

I realize that I am repeating some of what has already been said in this thread, but I think you are unfairly representing the arguments of those that cry for a deeper, more developed bench every year, and turning it into a "we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't (win these early season games)" argument.

[Troublemaker]

I just find it a strange thing for Coach K to be essentially saying Plumlee isn't a part of the team's plan. It's just not like Coach K to do that. He's usually bending over backwards to talk UP his players (as evidenced by his hyperbole about Marshall's status early last year, and his praise of Murphy in multiple preseasons).

Coach K could've just misspoke, right? In this interview with Coach K written prior to the MSG games, Marshall clearly is in Duke's plans: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24292086/q-a-dukes-mike-krzyzewski

When talking about bigs, Coach K said: I think there's a number of people that have to take roles. It's not just one and that big guy position, a number of people can be there. Amile can be there. I'd like to see Marshall Plumlee be there.

I don't think anything about the NY trip would change MP3's status.

[trailblaze]

Jefferson is not a wing. He's a PF. He's not a C, either. He's a PF.

I was trying to make the point that his body is that of a wing, not a PF or C. Putting PF next to his name does not make him a PF.

[Troublemaker]

i think part of that stems from the culture of conversations here, where often it feels if you DON'T pick duke to win everything every time, you got some 'splaining to do. Therefore, when people present any opinion that is not super optimistic, they feel it needs to be qualified as 'realistic' as opposed to what is often predicted here (like that we would win by 20 last night...and one need not look past the predictions thread for further confirmation).

You'll note that the 20 point Duke victory prediction did run into some challenges from other posters in that thread.

As for the bolded statement above, I disagree. It's all frame of reference, I guess, because I actually think it's been too negative, especially in this thread. For me, the fact that Duke isn't clicking on all cylinders right now just means that I get an opportunity to watch a great coach develop the team over the season to where they ARE clicking on all cylinders. I'm looking forward to that happening and will enjoy the journey greatly. And I'm confused as to why there aren't many others taking that same perspective.

[uh_no]

You'll note that the 20 point Duke victory prediction did run into some challenges from other posters in that thread.

As for the bolded statement above, I disagree. It's all frame of reference, I guess, because I actually think it's been too negative, especially in this thread. For me, the fact that Duke isn't clicking on all cylinders right now just means that I get an opportunity to watch a great coach develop the team over the season to where they ARE clicking on all cylinders. I'm looking forward to that happening and will enjoy the journey greatly. And I'm confused as to why there aren't many others taking that same perspective.

certainly after a loss, people are generally very negative....but predictions are often extremely rosy....making people feel uncomfortable predicting lesser outcomes, feeling that without saying something like "being realistic" they will get slammed for being overly negative. I know I am guilty of it too, whether it comes to talking about individual games, predictions, or outcomes, or players. It is a consequence of unchecked negativity being frowned upon, which is often a desirable outcome when trying to foster intriguing conversation....

so when people are being pessimistic, which can often be viewed as negative, people qualify it any way they can to make expressly clear that they're not JUST being negative, but trying to deliver their honest opinion (however wrong it may be :) )

so yeah, maybe this thread has been negative, but it's a reaction among many to qualify their pessimism

[DBFAN]

I think all of this talk about the Center, could be taken another way. It is my understanding that K has referred to this team specifically about being a position-less team. I don't think K, at any point would try to embarrass one of his own players. For the players sake, and for his own. I mean I know the media doesn't blow anything K says, out of proportion, but there's always a first.

[Edouble]

For me, the fact that Duke isn't clicking on all cylinders right now just means that I get an opportunity to watch a great coach develop the team over the season to where they ARE clicking on all cylinders. I'm looking forward to that happening and will enjoy the journey greatly. And I'm confused as to why there aren't many others taking that same perspective.

I think it's the lack of cylinders, and that the cylinders that we are seeing don't appear to have enough fuel during the last lap.

[Kedsy]

What he has done is grow to be 7 feet tall with well above average athletic ability playing a sport where the other team consistently has a bigger front court than us.

Marty Nessley grew to 7'2 and was significantly bigger than Marshall. He played on teams for which 6'8 Jay Bilas served as center (who was listed as the same dimensions as Jabari), and yet Marty played 4.3 mpg, 3.3 mpg, and 2.7 mpg his first three seasons at Duke (counting DNPs as 0 minutes). His senior year he got up to 11.4 mpg (a year where 6'7 John Smith started at center, although I was told on a different thread that 6'10 Danny Ferry actually guarded the opposing center). Did Marty deserve to play more minutes? I'd argue no.

I'm not saying Marshall Plumlee is Marty Nessley, but I don't think being 7 feet tall (even with above-average athletic ability) is enough to get you playing time at Duke. There's a lot more to it than that.

[Kedsy]

Until he has a real sample size i.e. 4-5 games of greater than 20 min per I dont care what his stats say.

Then you're probably going to not care what his stats say until at least next season, because it doesn't look like Marshall's going to be seeing 4 or 5 games of 20+ minutes this season.


As far as I'm concerned he is the only center we have and you play him no matter what unless he turns out to be absolutely horrendous which is unlikely if his primary responsibility is defense and rebounding.

Obviously Coach K disagrees with you on playing him no matter what.


He could likely help our team with a stat line of 4 pts 8 rebs 2 blocks/contest.

Pulling down 8 rebounds per game would have been 4th in the ACC last season. Getting 2 blocks per game would have also been 4th in the ACC last season. You think it's likely that Marshall could finish in the top 5 of the league in those two categories? Really?

[Troublemaker]

What troubles me is that Amile and Josh are part of that 7 man rotation. We can stop pretending they play the 5, Jabari defends the post, but these two can't defend or rebound or score from the 4.

While Jabari has spent the most time of any Duke player defending 5s so far, that is mostly the result of Duke having played so many teams that play small, often with Jabari-sized centers, allowing Jabari to play the 5 and Rodney the 4. But when Josh or Amile have been in the game with Jabari, they are the primary 5 defenders and Jabari has been defending 4s, especially in recent games.

So far, 6 out of 8 opponents have had predominant lineups that allowed Duke to play smallball (Jabari at the 5, Rodney at the 4). This frequency will more or less continue through the Elon game on Dec 31. But after the New Year and heading into ACC play, I'd estimate Duke can only go small as the predominant lineup in 1 of every 2 games, if that and if needed. Hopefully by then, one of the bigs will emerge as a player we're comfortable partnering with Jabari in the froncourt against all opponents, big and small.

[Edouble]

Then you're probably going to not care what his stats say until at least next season, because it doesn't look like Marshall's going to be seeing 4 or 5 games of 20+ minutes this season.

You never really know. Elliot Williams came out of nowhere. There's always a possibility, albeit it would be a surprise at this point.

[Kedsy]

You never really know. Elliot Williams came out of nowhere. There's always a possibility, albeit it would be a surprise at this point.

Maybe, except Elliot Williams didn't really come out of nowhere. Through 7 games of his only season at Duke, Elliot Williams averaged 16 mpg. Marshall is averaging around 2.5 mpg (counting DNP-CDs as 0 minutes). The parallel is not particularly strong.

[Troublemaker]

I think it's the lack of cylinders, and that the cylinders that we are seeing don't appear to have enough fuel during the last lap.

Not sure I buy that, since Arizona raced with the same amount of cylinders. (Let's stop using this metaphor, though, please, even though I introduced it :-)

[Edouble]

Maybe, except Elliot Williams didn't really come out of nowhere. Through 7 games of his only season at Duke, Elliot Williams averaged 16 mpg. Marshall is averaging around 2.5 mpg (counting DNP-CDs as 0 minutes). The parallel is not particularly strong.

It really seems like you're manipulating statistics here. What I mean is that by the time Williams got his chance to start, those early games where he logged 16mpg were practically ancient history.

Williams was inserted into the starting lineup on February 19th at St. Johns, the 23rd game of the season.

After New Years, at the start of the conference season, and during the 10 games that he played before taking over a starting spot in the lineup, he averaged 6.6 mpg, and had a whopping 18 field goal attempts. It was a big surprise that he started and played big time minutes the rest of the year. While he had played more minutes earlier in the year, he was pretty much an afterthought by the meat of the ACC season.

It was a surprising, lineup shocking turn of events, which is my main point. Something out of left field could happen with this lineup, e.g. Semi starts the next game (just an example, don't read too much into that!!!).

[Kedsy]

It really seems like you're manipulating statistics here. What I mean is that by the time Williams got his chance to start, those early games where he logged 16mpg were practically ancient history.

Williams was inserted into the starting lineup on February 19th at St. Johns, the 23rd game of the season.

After New Years, at the start of the conference season, and during the 10 games that he played before taking over a starting spot in the lineup, he averaged 6.6 mpg, and had a whopping 18 field goal attempts. It was a big surprise that he started and played big time minutes the rest of the year. While he had played more minutes earlier in the year, he was pretty much an afterthought by the meat of the ACC season.

It was a surprising, lineup shocking turn of events, which is my main point. Something out of left field could happen with this lineup, e.g. Semi starts the next game (just an example, don't read too much into that!!!).

OK, it's certainly true that Elliot Williams dropped out of the rotation before he got back in it. My point was he actually played a lot earlier in the season. He's not good precedent for a guy who barely plays at all. I understand that anything can happen, and that just because it's never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen now or in the future, but I can't think of a single healthy Duke player under Coach K who played 20 or so minutes total for the entire month of November (as Marshall has) who ended up playing 20 or so minutes a game on even a semi-regular basis later in the same season. People always bring up Elliot Williams and Brian Zoubek, but both of them played plenty in November. So maybe it'll happen with Marshall, but the odds are very long against it.