K and Dean

[Newton_14]

This is a very well written article from the N&O about K and Dean and the level of respect K has for his former enemy in battle. Very well written. For thos of you that are too young to remember ACC Hoops in the mid-70's to present, I feel bad for you. The rest of us are very fortunate to have witnessed that part of the ACC conference history. Hope you enjoy the article.

Linky: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/11/27/3407860/coach-k-i-love-dean-hes-remarkable.html#

[BD80]

This is a very well written article from the N&O about K and Dean and the level of respect K has for his former enemy in battle. Very well written. For thos of you that are too young to remember ACC Hoops in the mid-70's to present, I feel bad for you. The rest of us are very fortunate to have witnessed that part of the ACC conference history. Hope you enjoy the article.

Linky: http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/11/27/3407860/coach-k-i-love-dean-hes-remarkable.html#

Except this:

“[Dean] stepped down and his program was still right there. So, I would hope whenever I do that, we leave our program in the same way,’ Krzyzewski said. “I admire that. We all have decisions to make when you do it, but how he left it, to me, is how you do it. In the military, we’re always succession oriented. You want to leave it in good shape because it’s never yours completely. ..."

I hope "Captain's" plan for succession is MUCH better than deano's was.

[PSurprise]

Except this:

“[Dean] stepped down and his program was still right there. So, I would hope whenever I do that, we leave our program in the same way,’ Krzyzewski said. “I admire that. We all have decisions to make when you do it, but how he left it, to me, is how you do it. In the military, we’re always succession oriented. You want to leave it in good shape because it’s never yours completely. ..."

I hope "Captain's" plan for succession is MUCH better than deano's was.

Makes you wonder if Dean was younger and not in his health situation if things would be different...

[OldPhiKap]

Except this:

“[Dean] stepped down and his program was still right there. So, I would hope whenever I do that, we leave our program in the same way,’ Krzyzewski said. “I admire that. We all have decisions to make when you do it, but how he left it, to me, is how you do it. In the military, we’re always succession oriented. You want to leave it in good shape because it’s never yours completely. ..."

I hope "Captain's" plan for succession is MUCH better than deano's was.

Agreed, stepping down right before the season started was disruptive, at best.

But he did leave it in good hands.

[BD80]

...

But he did leave it in good hands.

Whose? Or is that really funny when viewed through Duke Blue glasses?

Guthridge was a good person and a good coach, but not a recruiter and certainly not the caliber head coach I wish for for Coach K's successor.

[OldPhiKap]

Whose? Or is that really funny when viewed through Duke Blue glasses?

Guthridge was a good person and a good coach, but not a recruiter and certainly not the caliber head coach I wish for for Coach K's successor.

Gut was a capable caretaker, never planned as a long-term replacement I do not think. They certainly hoped that Doh! would take them into the next epoch. Didn't change the system, didn't change the back office folks (a real thorn when doh! did it), knew "Hte Carolina Way" as it existed at the time.

[Olympic Fan]

Agreed, stepping down right before the season started was disruptive, at best.

But he did leave it in good hands.

To defend Dean, he made it clear for at least a decade before his retirement that it would almost certainly come before the season.

He always said that he'd make the decision when a new season was about to start and he didn't feel excited to get going.

Oh, I'm sure part of his reasoning was to make sure that the school gave the job to Bill Guthridge, his long-time assistant. Not that Gut didn't deserve it, but also his three years as a head coach meant a HUGE difference in his retirement income. Assistants don't retire rich ... in this era, head coaches do (at least at the blue blood schools).

Dean did hand off a program in great shape -- five of six starters off the 1997 Final Four team (Vince Carter, Antwan Jamison, Ed Cota, Ademola Okolaja and Shammond Williams) with Ndiaye and Brendan Heywood coming in to replace Serge Zwikker. Dean also had early commitments from two top 10-15 prospects -- Jason Capel and Kris Lang.

Gut did score a major recruiting coup when he convinced top 10 point guard Ron Curry (who had committed to Virginia for football) to switch to UNC basketball. He also had some bad recruiting luck, twice signing top 10 power forward Jason Parker -- only to see the guy fail for admission both times. He also made an idiotic recruiting decision, deciding not to pursue a very interested Jason Williams because he had Ron Curry to play point.

Still, Gut took UNC to two Final Fours in three years as head coach and left Matt Doherty with a team good enough to be No. 1 for most of February in 2001. The problem with succession was not the choice of Guthridge, which Dean set up beautifully, but the botched succession of Guthridge ... if Roy would have come in the summer of 2000 ... or Chancellor Moeser would have led Baddour hire Larry Brown, UNC would have escaped the worst of the succession horror.

BTW, if K's successor takes us to two Final Fours in three years, I promise to show him a lot more love than the spoiled UNC fans showed Gut.

[sagegrouse]

Still, Gut took UNC to two Final Fours in three years as head coach and left Matt Doherty with a team good enough to be No. 1 for most of February in 2001. The problem with succession was not the choice of Guthridge, which Dean set up beautifully, but the botched succession of Guthridge ... if Roy would have come in the summer of 2000

... or Chancellor Moeser would have led Baddour hire Larry Brown, UNC would have escaped the worst of the succession horror.

BTW, if K's successor takes us to two Final Fours in three years, I promise to show him a lot more love than the spoiled UNC fans showed Gut.

Gut's first team, the 1998 squad with Jamison and Carter was exceptionally good, ending 34-4 and making the Final Four. The next year UNC was 24-10, and Gut's last year was 22-14; that the 2000 squad made the Final Four is pretty miraculous. I wouldn't be happy with those three years from K's successor, except for the Final Fours. Moreover, Duke has lost ten games only once since the 1996 season.

Larry Brown is a great coach, but has never shown any interest in building or running a long-term program. And his curtain call with the 2004 Olympics was embarrassing to the country. I happen to think that UNC dodged a bullet by avoiding Brown.

I believe that K will leave the right way -- give plenty of notice so Duke will have time to make a complete search for a successor. Dean's act of bequeathing the program to his long-time assistant rubbed me the wrong way ... and IMHO did not end particularly well for UNC.

But others may differ on all these points....

sagegrouse

[wilson]

Dean did hand off a program in great shape -- five of six starters off the 1997 Final Four team (Vince Carter, Antwan Jamison, Ed Cota, Ademola Okolaja and Shammond Williams...Ademola Okulaja beats himself (clap, clap).

[wsb3]

Oh, I'm sure part of his reasoning was to make sure that the school gave the job to Bill Guthridge, his long-time assistant. .

Olympic Fan this was what I always thought. By retiring when he did he left little choice but to hire Guthridge. I read an article that there was a sit down with Dean, Bill, and Roy and the plan was for Bill to coach three years and then Roy take over. Rumors were that Bill was furious when Roy turned the job down and said he would have not retired then if he had known Roy was not going to stick to the deal.

I applaud Dean for this move. He rewarded a loyal longtime assistant who could have left long ago to head coach elsewhere. I remember a TV commentator said that Arkansas really wanted him and not sure of time line but I believe it might have been when Nolan Richardson was hired.

[davekay1971]

Proposed thread title change

PS: didn't mean for Dean to not be capitalized. Having his name in lower case seems disrespectful. I think K has proven to be a better and more successful coach by any measure, so I stick by the ">>>" part. But I don't like having Dean up capitalized and wish I could edit that!

[hurleyfor3]

Gut's last year was 22-14; that the 2000 squad made the Final Four is pretty miraculous.

Most of that miracle involved getting the most favorable draw in ncaa bracketing history. They were the ideal team to beat Stanford that year (the #1) and Cincy (the #2) didn't have Kenyon Martin.

[Olympic Fan]

Most of that miracle involved getting the most favorable draw in ncaa bracketing history. They were the ideal team to beat Stanford that year (the #1) and Cincy (the #2) didn't have Kenyon Martin.

I wish you wouldn't go there -- that's one of the things the Duke haters throw at K's 2010 champs ... the point is that they beat the four teams they were assigned to play in the NCAA Tournament. You can dismiss Stanford as a favorable matchup if you want, but they were No. 3 in the final AP poll -- which is higher than the best team Duke beat in 2010 (No. 6 West Virginia). They did get some good matchups beyond that (and they didn't have to play No. 2 seed Cincinnati with our without Martin), but sometimes the matchups work in your favor and sometimes they don't.

As for Larry Brown, obviously he's not a long-term answer at UNC -- although he's often called that his dream job, so there's at least a chance that he stays more than 2-3 years. Even so, he would have made the perfect bridge to the time when Roy WAS willing to come -- the great disaster of the succession was bringing in Matt Doherty. And Brown is/was a great short-term coach -- I shudder to think what he would have done with the uber-talented 2001 team that Matt screwed up so badly.

It's kind of ironic in hindsight that UNC passed on Larry because Moeser -- who had been at Nebraska when Brown was at Kansas in the late '80s -- blocked the hire because he knew what a cheating sleaze Brown was (who got both UCLA and Kansas put on probation). We know now UNC basketball was already cheating its butt off with the AFAM stuff which dates back AT LEAST to Julius Peppers, who played a big part in that 2000 FF run and probably as far back as the early 1990s -- under Dean -- when N'yongo (sp?) took over the African-American Studies program and by coincidence, African-American Studies began to show up as a favored major for UNC basketball.

Brown would have fit right in.

[hurleyfor3]

I wish you wouldn't go there -- that's one of the things the Duke haters throw at K's 2010 champs.

I know. I know. I know. That's rather my point.

The line on the unc/stanford game was around Stanford -1½ or -2. Typically a 1/8 game is in the 7-10 range.

[-jk]

Wasn't that the game where Stanford was big and slow, but unc was bigger and slower, and just out-bigged and out-slowed them?

-jk

[hurleyfor3]

Wasn't that the game where Stanford was big and slow, but unc was bigger and slower, and just out-bigged and out-slowed them?

Pretty much.

A cow orker was in Vegas for the tournament that year. I gave him $550 and told him that if the second-round game is stanford/unc, and unc is the dog, put it on unc. (And if neither of those conditions were true, don't bet anything.)

A week later I was $500 richer.

Really shoulda bet the money line on that one. In my history of caring about college basketball it was the most obvious paper upset evah.

[BD80]

...

A cow orker ...

How did that make it past the profanity filter?

[OldPhiKap]

How did that make it past the profanity filter?

Well, cow orking IS legal in Vegas. . . .

[sagegrouse]

Pretty much.

A cow orker was in Vegas ......


How did that make it past the profanity filter?

You beat me to it. I was gonna beg to hear the punch line of the joke.

sage

[hurleyfor3]

"Cow orker" was an Internet meme from the Usenet era, before Internet memes were called that. Stanford being a #1 seed that year was pretty much its own punch line.