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hurleyfor3
11-27-2013, 11:53 PM
Wow, defense! Or at least "other team not scoring a whole lot". On to Zona. Been here before.

luburch
11-27-2013, 11:54 PM
Love him or hate him, Bob Knight provides some excellent commentary.

OldPhiKap
11-27-2013, 11:56 PM
Love him or hate him, Bob Knight provides some excellent commentary.

No one knows more about the subject than Coach Knight. Always learn from his commentary.

-jk
11-27-2013, 11:59 PM
Few missed switches. Like.

-jk

BlueDevilBrowns
11-27-2013, 11:59 PM
Wow, defense! Or at least "other team not scoring a whole lot". On to Zona. Been here before.

First Thoughts:

Parker is Da Man. Nothing more to say... Except that I thought his post and help defense were much improved.

Senior leadership from TT and Hairston. They lead by example on defense tonight, I thought. Very active, especially with their footwork and hands.

Jones had a coming out party tonight. All of his points were huge for us as they seemed to always happen at critical times.

Quinn, Quinn, Quinn...

Overall a nice improvement from Vt.

I'm happy.

Good night and Happy Turkey Day everyone!

NYBri
11-27-2013, 11:59 PM
Pros:

Defense and free throw shooting showed up
Jabari
Rebounding
Jabari
Jabari

Cons:

Tough night for Rodney and Quinn
Officials

Interesting to have Jabari and 4guards on the floor for extended time.

Good win. Next up, 'Zona.

kAzE
11-28-2013, 12:00 AM
Love Bobby Knight. He jumped Vitale and Madden in the senile commentator power rankings ages ago.

Much better defense, but offense for some reason started out really slow tonight. Need more offensive production from the bench . . . can't ask the starters to do everything. Arizona is going to be a tough game. I'd imagine they are favored right now.

Philadukie
11-28-2013, 12:01 AM
I'm really, really pleased with this game after the last two.

I know I kept talking about this in the chat, but it looks like K made a significant defensive adjustment from overplay man to sagging man -- at least to my eyes. Would like to hear expert assessments. Our D was much improved. The talking was better, the rotations were better, and the penetration from Alabama, which is a good penetrating team BTW, was shut down many times.

Yes, we still had some defensive breakdowns, more in the second half, but it seemed that about 20 of their points came from transition or points off of turnovers, particularly the press. Overall, our half court defense was very good. Coach Knight commented several times on how good our help D was.

And yes, we had 19 turnovers, but I'm really not worried about the offensive stats. We're a great offensive team. I was looking closely at the D and came away pretty pleased.

cruxer
11-28-2013, 12:05 AM
I'm really, really pleased with this game after the last two.

I know I kept talking about this in the chat, but it looks like K made a significant defensive adjustment from overplay man to sagging man -- at least to my eyes. Would like to hear expert assessments. Our D was much improved. The talking was better, the rotations were better, and the penetration from Alabama, which is a good penetrating team BTW, was shut down many times.


Yep I thought so too. I'm guessing that's just what the doctor ordered with the new emphasis on hand/arm checking. Force a team to shoot over you some rather than consistently getting beat on the dribble.

-c

DU82
11-28-2013, 12:07 AM
Late in the game, I could hear Jones shouting on defense. Really impressed with his play last night (by about 7 minutes.)

KandG
11-28-2013, 12:09 AM
Just have to live with the reality that such a young team is going to take years off my life. Much, much better communication on defense, but for huge stretches of the 2nd half, we looked like a mediocre team with a transcendent, once in a generation talent.

Good finish with Rasheed & Matt Jones providing quality minutes. In the future, I would like to see our experienced point guard not spin dribble into two and three defenders over and over. It was like a "how not to handle the press" blooper reel.

Not terribly optimistic about Friday, but I do believe the improvement curve for this team is going to slope more sharply upward over the course of the season than in previous seasons.

tommy
11-28-2013, 12:13 AM
The defense on the perimeter was far superior to the last couple of games. Our guys were moving their feet better, they were much less handsy on the outside, we hedged and recovered way better, the switching was smooth. Alabama did hurt us some on the inside with offensive rebounds and other second chance points, but not in a big way. I'll break this game down soon, but to my eyes on first watch, there was a much better effort on D, greater focus, and a real determination to lock in at that end.

Furniture
11-28-2013, 12:14 AM
I must be the only one that's not overly impressed then.

roywhite
11-28-2013, 12:15 AM
Just have to live with the reality that such a young team is going to take years off my life. Much, much better communication on defense, but for huge stretches of the 2nd half, we looked like a mediocre team with a transcendent, once in a generation talent.

Good finish with Rasheed & Matt Jones providing quality minutes. In the future, I would like to see our experienced point guard not spin dribble into two and three defenders over and over. It was like a "how not to handle the press" blooper reel.
Not terribly optimistic about Friday, but I do believe the improvement curve for this team is going to slope more sharply upward over the course of the season than in previous seasons.

Watching Quinn struggle against the press gave me visions of our PG of the future -- Tyus Jones. To be fair, Quinn hit some big shots, both from 3-pt and on drives, but he also made some bad mistakes against the press and poor shot choices.

Jabari was just sensational; seldom see Bob Knight at a loss for words at describing a player, and I think he was authentically shocked at just how good Jabari is.

Much, much better defense; lots of good work there. Kudos to Matt Jones for making some key plays -- I really like this kid, and hope to see him continue to play a bigger role.

Beat Arizona.

CDu
11-28-2013, 12:22 AM
Had a feeling we would see Thornton and Hairston starting tonight. Sure enough, Coach K went to his vets.

Hairston had a rough stat line, but I thought he had his best "hedge and recover" game of his career. He really helped negate dribble penetration. Kudos to Parker on that front as well.

Interesting to see us go to the 4-guard lineup for much of the last few minutes after Hood and Hairston fouled out.

As could have been predicted, we saw more of Matt Jones tonight. I thought he looked good. Very disruptive on D, and found good spots to score.

Oh yeah: Parker is amazing. I am not sure he came out in the second half, and he played C for most of that time. And still managed to drop nearly 30 on the night. The only negative was that he was a bit sloppy at times, committing some careless turnovers.

In general I wasn't thrilled with how we handled Bama's pressure defense. I would expect more from our team of good ballhandlers.

Still, a very nice bounceback game. Alabama helped us a bit with their sloppiness, but our defense looked so much better than Sunday.

wavedukefan70s
11-28-2013, 12:30 AM
Things are looking up.we could be a lot worse.on to play zona.Happy Thanksgiving

richardjackson199
11-28-2013, 01:05 AM
Releford rendered irrelevant by fouls in first half, thank goodness. That changed the 1st half after our rough start on offense. What mattered tonight was such a great effort on defense from everybody. So happy to see that clutch game from Matt Jones. Great leadership game from TT and Hairston IMO. I also continue to love Rasheed even though his shot is off right now. He was valuable, and our offense usually runs smoother with him in the game. He gets lots of nice assists where he gets the ball to others (like Jabari) in their sweet spots. It seems like even the officials don't know what to make of the new emphasis on rules. I don't need to mention Jabari - we all saw it - just enjoy him at Duke while we can. Great effort from everyone tonight. I'm ready for our full offense and defense to show up against zona. Go Duke!

Duvall
11-28-2013, 01:21 AM
Watching Quinn struggle against the press gave me visions of our PG of the future -- Tyus Jones. To be fair, Quinn hit some big shots, both from 3-pt and on drives, but he also made some bad mistakes against the press and poor shot choices.

Pretty sure Cook would look good against Minnesota State High School League competition as well.

Dukehky
11-28-2013, 01:31 AM
Pretty sure Cook would look good against Minnesota State High School League competition as well.

I know it's always PC to give the guard in college the benefit of the doubt over a high schooler, but Tyus Jones could start for Duke offensively right now, he's that good.

Really glad to see Jones get some good time. Hood had a terrible game that he did to himself. He had 3 bad block fouls where he stood there, didn't move his feet at all and didn't really attempt to take charges, they were atrocious defense by him. I hope he steps up in the big game on Friday, because I think he needs to show out on some of these big stages. He's 0-2 right now on being impressive on the national stage. I have tremendous amounts of faith in Rodney, I think he's amazing and adjusting to the scene of Duke BB from MSU is a huge thing, but it's a mental block I think he needs to get over. Beating Zona would help that. I hope they put Parker on Gordon and vice versa so Jabari can just eat that kid's lunch.

Go Duke, Beat Arizona.

Billy Dat
11-28-2013, 01:38 AM
I attended the game and, because of a ticket mix-up, MSG wound up moving my buddy and I to the second row, behind the basket, right next to the Bama bench. Fantastic!

Our half court defense was excellent. Bama only kept in the game because they got offense from defense. Their press and their half court trapping was really impressive up close. For a seriously limited offensive team, they are smart to get offense from defense. They competed hard, and Anthony Grant looks like he could lace them up right now, that dude is in sick shape. Bruiser Flint looks that way too, and I think he's in his 50s.

Jabari is just special, and we need to get him the ball even more. I don't like these bad "bright lights" games that Rodney is having, I hope he plays well against Arizona. Great call by CDu on noting Hairston's hedge and recover D, it was impressive up close. Matt Jones was a stud, that lower rotation is still very much up for grabs...no Marshall, Murphy or Semi, very late entrance for Rasheed, who only really played toward the end because of the foul trouble. Quinn scored well but didn't have a great game, Amile was fairly invisible. As others have noted, we did go small.

Great foul shooting.

Thornton's late transition steal and lay-up was the play of the game.

Arizona has a lot of size, it'll be an interesting chess match. Glad to see our D show up and play well, and our awesome freshman continue to play like an All American.

As far as the atmosphere, the renovated Garden is really nice, but there was zero buzz in the crowd. There were no fans in the upper deck and it felt like everyone had already eaten their turkey. I hope there is some more juice on Friday - I'll be there!

pfrduke
11-28-2013, 01:57 AM
Tough night for Rodney and Quinn


Quinn scored well but didn't have a great game

I was at the game as well tonight, and though Quinn had his struggles against the press, I thought he played a fantastic defensive game against Releford. Every time Releford didn't have the ball, Quinn played full ball denial defense and played it well. Releford had to work extremely hard just to get the ball in his hands. Thanks to that defense, Releford took just 7 shots in 31 minutes and, aside from a brief stretch in the latter portion of the second half, had essentially no impact on the offensive end for the Tide - Alabama's leading scorer and primary driver of their offense was relegated to a third banana role

kAzE
11-28-2013, 03:59 AM
I really thought he take over a little bit more of the scoring load with Hood on the bench for most of the game, but just 2 attempts, both from beyond the arc. He did an admirable job of finding the open man with 5 assists to just 2 turnovers, but I think this is starting to become a bit of a head scratcher. he had 33 points in the first 2 games combined, but just 16 points in the 5 games since, including just 3 in the last 2 games.

He's out of the first round on Chad Ford's big board (Parker is up to #3 and Hood is WAY up to #11). I'm not seeing any real signs of regression, he seems like the same player. I'm just going to chalk it up to an extended shooting slump for now, but if this keeps up for another 5 games, people might start reaching for the panic button.

NYBri
11-28-2013, 07:07 AM
I was at the game as well tonight, and though Quinn had his struggles against the press, I thought he played a fantastic defensive game against Releford.

Since you had a vantage point from MSG, I'll defer to your analysis. From watching the TV machine however, Quinn scored, but seemed to be erratic when it came to decisions and the press.

My thought late was, "Dude, Jabari has Duke on his uniform and NO ONE can stop him. What's with all the wild drives into the triple team coverage?"

But, I was ball watching on D, so I missed his work on the denial on Releford, who we contained pretty well.

grad_devil
11-28-2013, 08:21 AM
After the Vermont game, Tyler was skewered (and somewhat fairly) by some on this board for his play. It's not often you see a senior leader (and future coach?) make a more boneheaded play than fouling an end-of-the-shotclock desperation 3-pt shot in a tight game.

Last night I thought he came up huge for us on D. In the last 3 minutes, he had two major steals, one of which sealed the game, IMHO, when he took converted the steal into a layup.

I love the grit and hustle that Tyler brings to the floor, even if I get frustrated at his foul rate.

Kudos to Tyler for a great game..

davekay1971
11-28-2013, 08:38 AM
Lots of good and some bad last night.

The defense was much improved...except for a stretch in the middle of the second half where we seemed to lose that focus. And, as with the last two games, it began when we had a big lead and you could almost feel the guys relax, just a little. That's going to be part of the growth process of this team: learning to maintain focus and intensity when they have a big lead. Jabari mentioned once that he wanted to re-establish that fear teams had about playing Duke. Well, that's how you make them fear you: rabid dog defense and never letting up, even when you're winning big.

But, overall, the intensity was much better. When Alabama made their runs, Duke responded before things got out of hand. It was a good learning game, forcing us to play against an intense, aggressive, well coached team, and forcing us to answer the bell when that team took their best shot at us in the second half.

jv001
11-28-2013, 09:25 AM
Much improved defense and Parker is fantastic. Sulaimon, Jefferson and Dawkins= 0-7 fgs, but Sheed had 5 assists with 2 tos. Thornton played well with 5 steals, Cook scored well but had only 2 assists to go with 4 tos. His play against the press was terrible.(Duke turned it over 19 times). But he did play well on defense. Good game to get our defense back on track. And we outrebounded The Tide 35 to 34. GoDuke and beat unc and beat AZ.

Atlanta Duke
11-28-2013, 09:27 AM
Coach K apparently was not pleased with the post-game questions

Head coach Mike Krzyzewski, though, abruptly left the press conference when asked about the 12-0 Alabama run that cut into an 18-point lead for Duke.

"It’s too bad you couldn’t give credit to someone who played really well tonight,"...

"Happy Thanksgiving," he said, sarcastically, as he left the podium.


http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/11/27/3414399/duke-beats-alabama-75-64-to-advance.html

Seems like a legitimate question - would be interested as to whether there was more going on that set K off

roywhite
11-28-2013, 09:33 AM
Coach K apparently was not pleased with the post-game questions

Head coach Mike Krzyzewski, though, abruptly left the press conference when asked about the 12-0 Alabama run that cut into an 18-point lead for Duke.

"It’s too bad you couldn’t give credit to someone who played really well tonight,"...

"Happy Thanksgiving," he said, sarcastically, as he left the podium.


http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/11/27/3414399/duke-beats-alabama-75-64-to-advance.html

Seems like a legitimate question - would be interested as to whether there was more going on that set K off

Just seems like K sticking up for his guys, especially when they had made such good progress on the major point of emphasis, team defense. I would guess the team members liked his response in this case.

Yeah, I'd say breaking a good press is another educational area for this team. Bob Knight talked about it and had some ideas. I wonder if he and K will talk in the next day or so.

Saratoga2
11-28-2013, 09:46 AM
Before I read what others have to say I decided to put down my own observations.

1. Clearly the emphasis was on the defense at the start of the game. Coach K started his leaders along with Quinn who is very experienced and Jabari who is exceptional. The defense was simplified with less switching and was pulled in a little tighter. It worked very well and the guys who came in later got to see good defense in operation. The problem was that with Josh and Tyler in the game and with Rodney having a tentative game, the offense sputtered. Only Jabari and Quinn seemed to have any answer. Coach K switched his guards around and stuck Amile in and the offense started to pick up.

2. Rodney's game was tentative all night. He wasn't making good offensive plays and uncharacteristically mishandled the ball or didn't pass to an open man. I am wondering if it was another off game or whether the opposition with quick bigger men give him trouble, ala Kansas.

3. Our free throw shooting was much improved. There must have been a lot of work on that phase of the game.

4. Jabari continues to amaze. No one seems able to stop him and few even slow him down. If a team puts total focus on him, I wonder how our offense will go?

5. I can see Matt Jones making a big splash this season. While he is green, he came in a provided good defense, a lot of energy and put the ball in the hoop. He seemed to be our third best option in scoring tonight. Rasheed made some good plays but he is still not at the level he was at last year. I am hoping it will come soon.

6. Our guards and even Rodney were not good at finishing plays at the rim. In some cases they got to the line, but it looked like the shot was there to make, but we often appeared not to concentrate on making the shot and have it bounce the wrong way. With 5 guards, I am looking for a slasher who can get to the rim. So far it is Quinn and to a small degree Matt.

7. Our approach to dealing with the pressure defense of Alabama was poor. Too often, Quinn was stuck with no where to go and that holds for other guards to some degree including Tyler. We had a total of 18 turnovers. When Quinn has a bad play he seems to come back and try to be a hero by jacking up a shot or being out of control. I would like to see him go to the next play and let what happen not impact him the next play. Coach Knight said he believed we needed more crossing of the guys to provide and open player to pass to on inbounds. He also was critical of the tendency to bring the ball into the corner rather than near the top of the key, making it easy for teams to trap us into a turnover.

All in all it was a much better game than Vermont but there is still a lot of improvement possible. The guy I wondered about was Semi. He still may be a little to raw, but with his athleticism and strength, he gives us another option. I am hoping he continues to improve and becomes a real option as the season moves forward.

slower
11-28-2013, 09:51 AM
Yeah, I'd say breaking a good press is another educational area for this team. Bob Knight talked about it and had some ideas. I wonder if he and K will talk in the next day or so.

Maybe it's just me, but I've always had the impression that Bob Knight wouldn't go out of his way to help K any more than anybody else. There just seems to be an ego thing with Knight (and I LOVE Knight as an analyst - he's the best), as if he's pissed that K passed him in wins and on the "all-time greats" coaching list.

If anybody has inside knowledge on this, please enlighten me.

FerryFor50
11-28-2013, 09:55 AM
Had a feeling we would see Thornton and Hairston starting tonight. Sure enough, Coach K went to his vets.

Hairston had a rough stat line, but I thought he had his best "hedge and recover" game of his career. He really helped negate dribble penetration. Kudos to Parker on that front as well.

Interesting to see us go to the 4-guard lineup for much of the last few minutes after Hood and Hairston fouled out.

As could have been predicted, we saw more of Matt Jones tonight. I thought he looked good. Very disruptive on D, and found good spots to score.

Oh yeah: Parker is amazing. I am not sure he came out in the second half, and he played C for most of that time. And still managed to drop nearly 30 on the night. The only negative was that he was a bit sloppy at times, committing some careless turnovers.

In general I wasn't thrilled with how we handled Bama's pressure defense. I would expect more from our team of good ballhandlers.

Still, a very nice bounceback game. Alabama helped us a bit with their sloppiness, but our defense looked so much better than Sunday.

I thought the issue handling the press was with Cook's indecision and his retreating from the double teams. He didn't look to pass to open teammates, picked up his dribble, etc.

Another issue was when Hairston was in the game - they kept trying to use him in the "Mason" press breaking role. Problem is, he's not Mason. Doesn't have his size, speed, vision or ball handling skill. He's also not Ryan Kelly, who had better size and vision.

However, Sulaimon was extremely effective against the press. He did what you were supposed to - advance the ball and find open teammates. Hopefully, they keep using him against the press. I thought Jones did well against the press as well.

DevilYouthCoach
11-28-2013, 09:58 AM
[QUOTE=Billy Dat;681634]I attended the game and, because of a ticket mix-up, MSG wound up moving my buddy and I to the second row, behind the basket, right next to the Bama bench. Fantastic!

Our half court defense was excellent. Bama only kept in the game because they got offense from defense. Their press and their half court trapping was really impressive up close. For a seriously limited offensive team, they are smart to get offense from defense. They competed hard, and Anthony Grant looks like he could lace them up right now, that dude is in sick shape. Bruiser Flint looks that way too, and I think he's in his 50s.

Jabari is just special, and we need to get him the ball even more. I don't like these bad "bright lights" games that Rodney is having, I hope he plays well against Arizona. Great call by CDu on noting Hairston's hedge and recover D, it was impressive up close. Matt Jones was a stud, that lower rotation is still very much up for grabs...no Marshall, Murphy or Semi, very late entrance for Rasheed, who only really played toward the end because of the foul trouble. Quinn scored well but didn't have a great game, Amile was fairly invisible. As others have noted, we did go small.




I am truly impressed with Quinn Cook. Sure, he makes some mistakes, but basketball, as we know, is "a game of mistakes." I love Quinn's confidence and energy, plus he has tremendous skills. Against a determined press like Alabama plays, with super-quick athletes, there are going to be steals, but Quinn is our only true ball handler, by far the best on the team, and he was dealing with double and triple teams much of the second half. And after all, since he has the ball in his hands way more than any other player on the team, he is going to be facing the pressure much more than anyone else. I think he's Duke's best PG since Bobby Hurley (and I remember a lot of us screaming at Bobby Hurley's mistakes often!) Quinn is also an excellent scorer, and as last night's performance indicates, he can play superb defense. I predict an All-ACC selection for Quinn in the spring.

slower
11-28-2013, 10:08 AM
I am truly impressed with Quinn Cook. I think he's Duke's best PG since Bobby Hurley

I can only assume you are not counting Kyrie Irving's Duke career, because otherwise...

pfrduke
11-28-2013, 10:31 AM
I can only assume you are not counting Kyrie Irving's Duke career, because otherwise...

And, much more importantly, not counting Jason Williams as a point guard...

BlueDevilBrowns
11-28-2013, 10:43 AM
And, much more importantly, not counting Jason Williams as a point guard...

or Chris Duhon.

Newton_14
11-28-2013, 10:44 AM
First, I look forward to say, mid-January, when this team finds itself, and starts playing the game at a high level consistently. Tonight was one small step towards that goal on the defensive end, but I did not like the offense tonight at all. We did not play team offense. The ball movement was not good, and we were not attacking correctly. It came down to Jabari or Quinn going one on one much of the time. Thank God Jabari is a machine out there on offense. Just unstoppable

The good: the team defense was much better last night for the most part. We packed it in tighter, hedged better, rotated better, and as others noted, switched far less. We also forced turnovers better and rebounded better. The vets including Andre all played solid defense in the first half especially. I still don't like how the refs are reacting to the new rules with how they call fouls. That hurt both Hood and Hairston as both got called for 2 cheapies that should have been non calls. Tyler had one of his better games of the season with 6 points, 5 steals, 4 assists, and 4 rebounds, and only 2 fouls in 32 minutes of action. The kid played a heck of a game so hopefully the haters will back off a bit. On offense, Jabari was just unstoppable in all areas with another 27 point effort and 11 for 12 from the line. He carried us on offense for a long stretch. I agree with others that our offense on the whole was hurt by K going with the better defenders, and Rodney having an off game.

Quinn on the one hand, played really well in the halfcourt offense in terms of scoring, knocking down 3's, and when driving under control, finishing well. However, he only had two assists, and his decision making was really bad at times, including a couple of key moments where we need to extend the lead to remain comfortable. He also made several bad decisions against the press, and attacking the basket in the halfcourt. He just has to improve there for this team to reach full potential. We need him driving becasue he is really good at it when under control, but he has to eliminate the wild, out of control, 1 on 3, throwing up a prayer that has no chance in hell of going in. That is so frustrating to watch. If he can fix that, it will greatly help this team.

The bad:

Going with defensive personnel hurt our offense quite a bit, so there is a balance to strike there that has not been figured out yet.
Once again we let up after getting a big lead. These kids need a speech from Jay Williams and Battier on how to destroy a team. Up 18? great, let's put the hammer down and get them down 30!. Never let up!
We did not handle the press well at all. Much of it was poor decision making vs execution. That needs work. (Side Note: The way Bama ran their fullcourt press and had success with it, was how I envisioned this Duke team doing it. I am still miffed at why we can't press like Bama did and get the same level of success. Maybe it will come with time.


A couple of final thoughts. I said earlier that K may use a bit of a NBA approach and modify the reserves rotation based on matchups. Although Andre had a solid first half last night, due to the excellent Bama press, we needed ball handlers on the floor, so Matt got some of the minutes and the move paid off well. In the 2nd half Andre got pulled for going up weakly for a layup after we had broken the press and had the numbers advantage. Really really wish Andre would have went up strong there and tried to power dunk it. Not sure what holds him back on those type plays. With his hops and strength he should definitely try to throw it down on a play like that.

Rodney Hood- I don't believe he suffered from stage fright last night or against Kansas. The guy truly is a stud. In the Kansas game I thought it was the height of the Kansas players that bothered his mid-range and attack the basket offense, and last night I though the early foul trouble just threw him off and caused him to be tentative. He will have big games against big opponents. He is too good not too.

freshmanjs
11-28-2013, 10:47 AM
The bad:

Going with defensive personnel hurt our offense quite a bit, so there is a balance to strike there that has not been figured out yet.
Once again we let up after getting a big lead. These kids need a speech from Jay Williams and Battier on how to destroy a team. Up 18? great, let's put the hammer down and get them down 30!. Never let up!
We did not handle the press well at all. Much of it was poor decision making vs execution. That needs work. (Side Note: The way Bama ran their fullcourt press and had success with it, was how I envisioned this Duke team doing it. I am still miffed at why we can't press like Bama did and get the same level of success. Maybe it will come with time.


I really liked what Wojo said in the halftime interview. Paraphrasing -- that they wanted to give the captains the opportunity to set the tone and focus on defense. I think that makes sense. I don't expect the overall balance of playing time to shift that much, but likely we'll see a few games where those guys play more as the Coaches look to improve the defense.

BD80
11-28-2013, 10:48 AM
... I would like to see our experienced point guard not spin dribble into two and three defenders over and over. It was like a "how not to handle the press" blooper reel. ...

Golly, if there were only something the others players on the court could do to help!

Too bad his teammates can't warn Cook that the trap is coming from his blindside and they are therefor open for an outlet. Oh, wait. It's that communication issue again huh?

Cook is a very good point guard, he has the best post entry passing ability at Duke since Bobby Hurley, yes I said it. He is still learning, things I would have expected him to master by his junior year, but everyone runs his own race ...

Tyus will not start the beginning of next season over senior (captain?) Quinn.

diveonthefloor
11-28-2013, 10:52 AM
Defense showed major improvement...excellent communication, hedging, and help when appropriate. Big step forward.

QC to me is an enigma. Great raw talent. I had hoped his decision-making would be more advanced at this stage in his career. IMO, that's the main thing standing in between Duke and a Final Four run: PG decision-making.

mgtr
11-28-2013, 10:58 AM
Regarding Cook as great point guard, he is certainly the best we have had for awhile (not counting Irving who played briefly but brightly). Based on last night's game, Cook is looking more like a pass seldom point guard. He seems intent on taking it into the middle, regardless of how many defensive players are there. So, while he had 17 points, he had 2 assists and 4 turnovers. Of course, this could have been at K's direction, but I wonder. We are lucky to have Mr. Cook. We could the "Point Guard Wars" next season.

Newton_14
11-28-2013, 11:03 AM
Golly, if there were only something the others players on the court could do to help!

Too bad his teammates can't warn Cook that the trap is coming from his blindside and they are therefor open for an outlet. Oh, wait. It's that communication issue again huh?

Cook is a very good point guard, he has the best post entry passing ability at Duke since Bobby Hurley, yes I said it. He is still learning, things I would have expected him to master by his junior year, but everyone runs his own race ...

Tyus will not start the beginning of next season over senior (captain?) Quinn.

I hear you BD, and totally agree on the communication part. Also agree that Quinn is an incredibly talented PG who, like I said, when attacking the basket under control can get us easy baskets. I want him to do more of that actually as it is a dagger to the heart of a defense. My only beef with Quinn is decision making. As a Jr I just feel like he should not have as many bad decisions as he did last night.

I thought his defense was really good last night, so no issues there. However, if we are to reach our full potential, Quinn has to eliminate the head scratching decisions that seem to happen at a rate of about 3 to 5 times per game. He can certainly get there, no doubt about it. The question is when?

dukelifer
11-28-2013, 11:20 AM
I can only assume you are not counting Kyrie Irving's Duke career, because otherwise...

Or Jon Scheyer who averaged about 18 ppg and 5 apg his senior year- and led his team to a NC?

CajunDevil
11-28-2013, 11:25 AM
Thoughts on Bama game:

1. Matt Jones. He came in and hit two huge threes that got us going offensively and drew 3rd foul on Releford.
2. Jabari... insanely great
3. Defense - much much improved. The rotations and hedging were very good for the most part. Excellent progress for the quick turnaround.
4. Quinn... I'm excited and terrified by him driving to the hoop - not knowing if he's going to throw up an ill-advised shot against a big or a beautiful reverse layup. I'd like to see him look for Jabari or Amile a bit more as he drives. (An aside - I'd take QC over Chris Duhon as my pg any day)
5. Rodney. I think Rodney struggles against highly athletic wing defenders. I think NBA GMs will see his struggles against KU and Bama and think twice about taking Hood in the lottery this year. I think ultimately this is why Rodney comes back next year to get more physically ready for the pro game.
6. I loved the pressure Bama put on Duke. I didn't love our response to it, but it will help us going forward.
7. I want to apologize to Tyler and Josh for doubting our captains' defensive ability. Tyler's steal at the end was the play of the game, imo.

lotusland
11-28-2013, 11:31 AM
Regarding Cook as great point guard, he is certainly the best we have had for awhile (not counting Irving who played briefly but brightly). Based on last night's game, Cook is looking more like a pass seldom point guard. He seems intent on taking it into the middle, regardless of how many defensive players are there. So, while he had 17 points, he had 2 assists and 4 turnovers. Of course, this could have been at K's direction, but I wonder. We are lucky to have Mr. Cook. We could the "Point Guard Wars" next season.

Cook's assist numbers are pretty good on the year. One game with 2 assists doesn't make a "pass seldom point guard". Having a point guard who can break down the defense is a good thing. In order to be successful he has to be able to finish the drive. With more time playing together I'm sure the shooters will find their open spots, the slashers will find open lanes and because, Quinn can finish, defenders will slide over to help and Quinn will find the open man. I agree that It's an area that needs work. We have a Jr. PG but he's working with essentially 3 new starters since Jefferson did not play major minutes last year and, of course, Hood and Parker are new.

dukelifer
11-28-2013, 11:36 AM
I really thought he take over a little bit more of the scoring load with Hood on the bench for most of the game, but just 2 attempts, both from beyond the arc. He did an admirable job of finding the open man with 5 assists to just 2 turnovers, but I think this is starting to become a bit of a head scratcher. he had 33 points in the first 2 games combined, but just 16 points in the 5 games since, including just 3 in the last 2 games.

He's out of the first round on Chad Ford's big board (Parker is up to #3 and Hood is WAY up to #11). I'm not seeing any real signs of regression, he seems like the same player. I'm just going to chalk it up to an extended shooting slump for now, but if this keeps up for another 5 games, people might start reaching for the panic button.

I think Rasheed will find himself. Sophomore slumps are common. I am a little more concerned about Hood. He dominates lesser athletes but has struggled against players with similar size and quickness- although the sample size is small. Not sure it is nerves from being on a big stage or something else. Certainly worth watching over the year. Jabari is a complete player. He is just inexperienced. But even so- he is by far the best player on the team and maybe he is the best in college bball. His skill set is so advanced and he is a joy to watch. He needs to get the ball more down the stretch. He knows how to draw a foul and can finish with contact. Maybe he will get drafted 3- ala Michael Jordan or Carmello Anthony- but whatever team gets him will be very happy.

BD80
11-28-2013, 11:52 AM
Regarding Cook as great point guard, he is certainly the best we have had for awhile (not counting Irving who played briefly but brightly). Based on last night's game, Cook is looking more like a pass seldom point guard. He seems intent on taking it into the middle, regardless of how many defensive players are there. So, while he had 17 points, he had 2 assists and 4 turnovers. Of course, this could have been at K's direction, but I wonder. We are lucky to have Mr. Cook. We could the "Point Guard Wars" next season.

Jay Williams has repeatedly indicated that, given the new rules/ way contact is being called, he would be driving directly into the defenders, much like Quinn is doing.

ArnieMc
11-28-2013, 11:54 AM
. . . In the 2nd half Andre got pulled for going up weakly for a layup after we had broken the press and had the numbers advantage. Really really wish Andre would have went up strong there and tried to power dunk it. Not sure what holds him back on those type plays. With his hops and strength he should definitely try to throw it down on a play like that. . . .Right after that he passed up a wide open 3 as if he was afraid to shoot. He was very tentative and got pulled.

Marshall almost got into the game. He took off his warm ups and reported to the scorer's table, but, after a time out, he never got in. Semi and Murph were also DNP.

In his 10 minutes, Amile looked really strong on the defensive boards pulling down 4 with authority.

Against Vermont, our defense was "always switch." Against Alabama, it was never switch except for hedging on screens. That seemed to work a lot better, but I don't know why.

NYBri
11-28-2013, 11:54 AM
Cook's assist numbers are pretty good on the year. One game with 2 assists doesn't make a "pass seldom point guard". Having a point guard who can break down the defense is a good thing. In order to be successful he has to be able to finish the drive. With more time playing together I'm sure the shooters will find their open spots, the slashers will find open lanes and because, Quinn can finish, defenders will slide over to help and Quinn will find the open man. I agree that It's an area that needs work. We have a Jr. PG but he's working with essentially 3 new starters since Jefferson did not play major minutes last year and, of course, Hood and Parker are new.

I'd like to see him push the offense a bit more. He walks it up too much which allows the defense to set up. We have horses. Let them run.

lotusland
11-28-2013, 12:06 PM
I thought the issue handling the press was with Cook's indecision and his retreating from the double teams. He didn't look to pass to open teammates, picked up his dribble, etc.

Another issue was when Hairston was in the game - they kept trying to use him in the "Mason" press breaking role. Problem is, he's not Mason. Doesn't have his size, speed, vision or ball handling skill. He's also not Ryan Kelly, who had better size and vision.

However, Sulaimon was extremely effective against the press. He did what you were supposed to - advance the ball and find open teammates. Hopefully, they keep using him against the press. I thought Jones did well against the press as well.

Having guys at the 4 and 5 position like Mason and Ryan who can handle the ball well and make good passes is the easiest way to break a press imo. Parker definitely fits the bill but the defense is not going to leave a slow defender sagging off him at half court. I haven't seen Josh and Amile enough to know whether they could be the guy. Another option is to set picks in the back court freeing a guard to catch the inbound pass going up the court instead of breaking back to a corner where the double team awaits. Someone is open but it only helps if you can get him the ball and he can advance the ball up court via dribble or pass. Maybe the guys should watch the 85' Celtics and just do what they did:D

mr. synellinden
11-28-2013, 12:10 PM
I was at the Garden last night with seats very close to the court and across from the Duke bench. Pretty much directly in front of me were Chris Mullin, Coach Danowski and Andy Katz (I also saw Alaa Abdelnaby, the Scheyers, Howard Dean and Mason, who showed up with about 10 minutes left in the game). It was the closest I've been to the court at a Duke game in a long time. As I and others have mentioned, MSG was relatively empty and had very little energy. It kind of felt like a high school game. So for much of the game, I could hear the players on the court clearly and most of what was coming from the Duke bench. I also was able to appreciate the game much differently than watching on TV. Here are my observations:


Jabari. Wow. He is such a superstar. He's the kind of player you are willing to pay to watch in person - and watching him in person you see what makes him special. It appears effortless. He has such maturity and poise and control of his game. He is extremely quick - very much like Grant in that sense, his first step is deceptively quick and powerful - and fluid. He is also crafty, has seemingly endless moves and is strong with the ball. It's hard to believe he is a freshman. He is almost unguardable - put someone smaller on him and he'll post up or figure out a way to use his height advantage. Put a big man on him and he'll figure out a way to use his quickness and take you off the dribble. Someone in the thread alluded to Clarence Gaines' tweets about Jabari. I agree with those. This isn't just a potential #1 pick - this is a superstar and a potential all-time great. I wasn't planning to go to the game on Friday night because I have travel plans, but I am considering changing those plans just so I can watch Jabari in person again. One additional note about Jabari, he has a second gear and you can see in his eyes when he decides he is taking a possession, or a game, over. It's almost as if he knows he can do whatever he wants - like, "okay, we need a basket here, just give me the ball and get out of the way." He reminds me of Kobe or LeBron that way. And yes, I think he is in that class of player. I'd like to see him exhibit that second gear more of the time. Right now he seems more like Grant than Kobe (or even Laettner) in terms of having a killer instinct.

The early part of the game was extremely interesting. We were expending a lot of energy on defense and I think that affected our ability to get into an offensive rhythm. Jabari looked flustered for the first few possessions - missed a good look on his first shot, forced his second shot a little bit and then had a bad turnover. We were having a hard time figuring out their zone, which was more of a 1-3-1 than a 2-3. I knew the first substitution was going to include Andre to give us some more scoring. I also knew Coach K was going to take out Jabari, and I knew he was going to have one of the assistants go over and talk to him because he looked off. Sure enough, Nate had a little talk with him. After that, he missed one shot the whole game. But on defense, we were excellent. Everyone was talking, even the players on the bench, and we were moving our feet extremely well. Quinn's defense was excellent. People can criticize some of his decision making if they want, and some of it is justified, but there is a reason he played all 40 minutes. Releford is their best player by far, and Quinn totally neutralized him.

Speaking of Releford, he picked up his second foul on a bit of a questionable offensive foul call, and that really changed the flow of the game. Without him, Alabama looked lost on offense, and that's when we made our run to close out the first half with an 11 point lead. Grant rolled the dice putting him back in the game with 2 fouls and then got a bit unlucky when Releford picked up his third foul on another questionable charge call. If those two calls go the other way and Releford doesn't have to sit for a good part of the first half, then I think it's a close game the whole way. Even so, Quinn's defense on him was really outstanding.

Sulaimon did a very good job at the end of the game helping to break the press, but he did not have a good game. Coach K was very unhappy with him after one second half turnover. Watching him on the court last night, it seemed like he has a confidence issue and is trying to find his place and how he can help the team.

Jones looked really good on defense and rebounded well. His shot looks so awkward, but it works and he made some key FTs. A side note, I remember in 1989, after Grant Hill committed to Duke, one of the next games, Thomas Hill came out with T. Hill on the back of his jersey (instead of just Hill as it had been previously). As fans, we were giddy with excitement about having a G. Hill the following year. With Tyus Jones in the fold, I wonder if Duke will put M. Jones on the back of Matt's jersey sometime this season.

Coach K may have been defensive about the 12-0 run in the second half, but there is an issue there. I thought our guys eased up a bit in their intensity. When Alabama started to press, it was like we took a hit to the chin and backed down instead of fighting back. I'm surprised Coach K walked out of the press conference because that is clearly something that needs to be addressed. On the other hand, it was impressive how the team (especially Jabari) responded and finished the game. Our FT shooting was excellent. It looks like Jabari has figured that out - and I think by tournament time that is going to be a strength for us.

I love Josh's effort and realize he understands the defensive system, but we need better production than 2 pts, 2 rebounds and 5 fouls in 20 minutes. I'm really hoping Jefferson can start playing better defense and control his fouls because we need him.

Olympic Fan
11-28-2013, 01:12 PM
Cook's assist numbers are pretty good on the year.

Just for the record, Cook came into the 'Bama game leading the ACC in assists and in assist-to-turnover ratio. Even after last night, he's had 45 assist in seven games (6.4), which will still lead the ACC. He has 45 assists and 12 turnovers, which is still a 3.8 to one ratio, which I'm pretty sure is a school-record pace (yep, Wojo holds the record at 3.03 to one).

Best point guard since Hurley? I don't think so. I'd go Wojo (at least in '97 and '98 -- not a big scorer, but the best assist/turnover ratio in Duke history and a national defensive player of the year, plus he shot a combined 39-plus percent on 3-pointers in those two years), Avery ('99), Jason Williams (2000-2002), Chris Duhon (2001-04). I think he's better than the Dockery/Ewing combo in '05 and than Paulus in '06 (although he did lead the ACC in assists). After Paulus' freshman year, it's sometimes hard to find a clearcut point guard -- Scheyer and Nolan Smith were better PLAYERS, but I can see the argument that neither was a traditional PG. Irving clearly was, but for just eight games as a starter (and three more as a sub). So I can see the case that Quinn is Duke's best fulltime point guard since Duhon graduated after leading us to the 2004 Final Four.

-- Just a note about the offensive rebound discrepancy that is noted on the front page ... the box is right. Duke did have eight offensive rebounds, but just three by individual players. Duke was credited with five TEAM rebounds. Part of that is a statistical quirk -- when a tem misses the first shot of a shot found that team gets a TEAM offensive rebounds -- missed shots and rebounds have to even out. Sometimes (and I can't remember if this happened) a rebound can go out of bounds off the defensive team -- that's a team rebound. Or two guys from the same team can wrestle for the ball and get called for traveling ... little things like that are TEAM rebounds.

-- I'm going to be watching Hood carefully in the Arizona game. So far, it's a small sample size, but the fact that he's struggled against Kansas and Alabama, while looking like an All-American in the other five games, is a concern. I don't think it's pressure -- he was great in late-game pressure situations against ECU and Vermont. Is it the size of the defender? Is it being away from home? Or is it just two mediocre performances at bad times -- every player (except Jabari) has ups and downs. Another clunker against 'Zona would be worrisome.

Kedsy
11-28-2013, 01:16 PM
Based on last night's game, Cook is looking more like a pass seldom point guard.

That may be true if you base your observation on last night's game alone. For the season, however, Quinn ranks 15th in the nation (and 1st in the ACC by a large margin) in assists per game.

gurufrisbee
11-28-2013, 01:16 PM
I can only assume you are not counting Kyrie Irving's Duke career, because otherwise...

Uh, no. Not even a little.


And, much more importantly, not counting Jason Williams as a point guard...

Thank you.


or Chris Duhon.

Thank you.


Or Jon Scheyer who averaged about 18 ppg and 5 apg his senior year- and led his team to a NC?

Thank you.

I'd even include Nolan Smith as a better PG in that time frame. And I like Cook a lot.

CDu
11-28-2013, 01:31 PM
Just a note about the offensive rebound discrepancy that is noted on the front page ... the box is right. Duke did have eight offensive rebounds, but just three by individual players. Duke was credited with five TEAM rebounds. Part of that is a statistical quirk -- when a tem misses the first shot of a shot found that team gets a TEAM offensive rebounds -- missed shots and rebounds have to even out. Sometimes (and I can't remember if this happened) a rebound can go out of bounds off the defensive team -- that's a team rebound. Or two guys from the same team can wrestle for the ball and get called for traveling ... little things like that are TEAM rebounds.

Missed free throws only result in a rebound if that free throw is a live ball free throw. That "offensive rebound" in ESPN's play-by-play is a typo.

Team offensive rebounds occur in the following situations:
- Missed shots that go out of bounds off the defense
- Blocked shots that go out bounds
- possibly the scenario where two teammates tie up a rebound (not sure about this one)

Three times we shot and missed but the ball bounced off a Bama player and out of bounds. Twice Bama blocked a shot out of bounds. Those are our five team offensive rebounds.

azzefkram
11-28-2013, 01:35 PM
Good game with an outstanding effort from Jabari, TT and Matt. I thought Quinn had a good game. I don't get people questioning his decision-making. He had 4 TOs in 40 minutes. The only egregiously bad one was the lead pass to Josh. That's just not Josh's game and Quinn should know that. Speaking of Josh, I still don't see it. He had some good rotations like CDu mentioned but he had some poor ones as well. He was also rebounded over at least 3 times (one time because he flopped). Sheed's a bit of a head scratcher at the moment. He just can't seem to get it going. I am not overly concerned about Hood. Completely baffled by only 10 minutes for Amile and the head-fake on MP3.

Kedsy
11-28-2013, 01:37 PM
I was also at the game, although not in as good seats as some of the others who've chimed in. From my vantage, while our defense looked much improved -- especially on preventing dribble penetration -- I'm not sure how big a test Alabama was for our defense. They seemed to be mostly a one-on-one team, didn't move much or cut or set a lot of screens or any of the things that Vermont and ECU did that befuddled us. Several people have commented that we didn't switch much on screens, and while that's true, it's also true that Alabama didn't screen all that much and when they did they didn't do it very well, meaning they didn't make it difficult for our guys to stick with their own man rather than switch. I'd say the jury is still out on how much our D improved between Sunday and Wednesday.

For those who were concerned about our #178 defensive rating in Pomeroy, just the one game against Alabama moved us up 60 spots to #118. A similar showing against Arizona and we'll probably be in the 50s again.

Amile rebounded well but defended poorly. He's shown us enough in the past for me to think he'll get there, though. Andre messed up a couple ball screens early, but settled down and played decent D the rest of the game. Jabari was better but still has a ways to go before he's a plus defender. I think Rasheed's issue is he's trying too hard to do too much. He needs to get his confidence back and play more within the flow of the game. He did pretty well helping to break the press, though, so maybe that'll help him in this regard.

Also, we drew four charges -- who says it's impossible under the new rules?

Finally, it may be worth the tradeoff in getting Tyler's and Josh's leadership, communication skills, and defensive acumen into the game, but with Tyler playing 32 minutes and Josh playing 20, we're nowhere close to the #1 offense in the country. I think the main reasons our entire offense was Jabari-or-Quinn-take-his-man was due to the lack of flow and lack of offensive weapons on the floor. It's a lot easier for Rodney, Rasheed, and Andre to get good looks when we have 5 potent weapons on the floor instead of 3. It gives Quinn more passing options as well. I agree with whoever said there's a balance to be found here.

Dukehky
11-28-2013, 01:52 PM
Okay, Quinn Cook is not as good as Hurley, Avery, Williams, Duhon, Scheyer, Nolan, or Kyrie. He could be really, really good but part of that is going to stem from his realization that when playing on this team, he is not ever going to be the best player on the court. Rodney and/or Jabari are going to be on the court with him for the vast majority of this season. QC led the team in FG attempts last night. He is a really good passer when he wants to be, and I think he should focus a little more on distributing than trying to drive the lane. But IMO no one should take more shots than Jabari except Hood or Sulaimon if they're really rolling. Otherwise, give the ball to Jabari and he will either score or get the ball to the right player. We have the best offensive player in the country, let him abuse people.

That fade away that Bob Knight was speechless on, I just started laughing because that is just stupid good.

Prediction: Rodney Hood scores 20 against Arizona, and Rasheed Sulaimon has 12+. Arizona has little guards. As long as we can control Tarchewoeijrwoirjsksi we should be okay.

DevilYouthCoach
11-28-2013, 02:12 PM
I hear you BD, and totally agree on the communication part. Also agree that Quinn is an incredibly talented PG who, like I said, when attacking the basket under control can get us easy baskets. I want him to do more of that actually as it is a dagger to the heart of a defense. My only beef with Quinn is decision making. As a Jr I just feel like he should not have as many bad decisions as he did last night.

I thought his defense was really good last night, so no issues there. However, if we are to reach our full potential, Quinn has to eliminate the head scratching decisions that seem to happen at a rate of about 3 to 5 times per game. He can certainly get there, no doubt about it. The question is when?



A slogan I just heard on a cooking show today seems to me relevant to watching Duke basketball: NEVER ALLOW PERFECTION TO BECOME THE ENEMY OF EXCELLENCE. I have fallen into that trap much of my basketball-watching life. Sometimes I have wondered how Coach K could state how well the team had just played in a game when about all that I remembered were the dozens of mistakes and misplays. I think Quinn's decision-making might fall into this rubric also -- driving to the hoop is a very high risk move, requiring a good deal of confidence, skill, determination, and even chutzpah, and sometimes it just doesn't work. But I definitely would never want Quinn to become more tentative or less confident. That incredible pass to Jabari under the basket in the second half would never occur to a more cautious point guard!

Acymetric
11-28-2013, 02:16 PM
Good game with an outstanding effort from Jabari, TT and Matt. I thought Quinn had a good game. I don't get people questioning his decision-making. He had 4 TOs in 40 minutes. The only egregiously bad one was the lead pass to Josh. That's just not Josh's game and Quinn should know that. Speaking of Josh, I still don't see it. He had some good rotations like CDu mentioned but he had some poor ones as well. He was also rebounded over at least 3 times (one time because he flopped). Sheed's a bit of a head scratcher at the moment. He just can't seem to get it going. I am not overly concerned about Hood. Completely baffled by only 10 minutes for Amile and the head-fake on MP3.

For me at least if I am talking about Quinn's decision making its with regards to ill advised drives and shots, not so much his turnover rate. Quinn is a good player, and could be a very good player for us on some big time teams when all is said in done. I am not ready to suggest that he could be a great player yet.

mr. synellinden
11-28-2013, 02:24 PM
A few other notes - did anyone else notice Jabari's shoes? They were greyish-blue and appeared glittery. I would love to see a close up shot of them.

Jabari made his last 8 shots of the game.

During the 12-0 run, Jefferson blew a layup on a great pass from Jabari, and Dawkins missed a relatively easy layup. Quinn took a very bad shot and Hood made a bad play and got called for a charge. Also, Cook made a bad play giving up the ball against the full court press.

I thought Jefferson did a very good job with defensive rebounding the last five minutes of the first half.

jipops
11-28-2013, 03:06 PM
That may be true if you base your observation on last night's game alone. For the season, however, Quinn ranks 15th in the nation (and 1st in the ACC by a large margin) in assists per game.

Yea kind of a knee jerk reaction on Quinn. This after playing such solid D which we have so desperately needed.

dyedwab
11-28-2013, 03:33 PM
He always looks better at the end of the game stat sheet than I think he does during the game, and I'll trust that my impressionistic view of Quinn is wrong, and the data is correct. Plus, his defense was unquantifiable statistically, except as the absence of production from Releford- which was outstanding.

That said - the two issues with Quinn are dealing with the press at the end of the game, and his decision whether to pass or shoot. On the first, that's on the whole team, and we need to get better, but I would hope that a junior point guard would be better at it. On the second, it seems that Quinn decides whether he passing or shooting very early in his move/sets and doesn't leave himself the option to do one early enough when doing the other. This especially true when he's decided to drive/shoot. Nolan, even at his best, had that issue sometimes also.

So, Quinn's playing really well, and better than I thought, but there are a couple of key places where we need some improvement from him.

kAzE
11-28-2013, 09:12 PM
Quinn on the one hand, played really well in the halfcourt offense in terms of scoring, knocking down 3's, and when driving under control, finishing well. However, he only had two assists, and his decision making was really bad at times, including a couple of key moments where we need to extend the lead to remain comfortable. He also made several bad decisions against the press, and attacking the basket in the halfcourt. He just has to improve there for this team to reach full potential. We need him driving becasue he is really good at it when under control, but he has to eliminate the wild, out of control, 1 on 3, throwing up a prayer that has no chance in hell of going in. That is so frustrating to watch. If he can fix that, it will greatly help this team.


I think Quinn falls into the Bill Simmons "10% theory," which is his way of defending guys like Russell Westbrook. You like 90% of what they bring to your team, but 10% of the time, they will make a terrible decision that will make wonder what the hell he was thinking. In Cook's case, this may be more like the 15% theory, but for the most part, you'll take it, because he's a good enough threat on offense, plays pretty good D, and makes enough plays for his teammates that you're willing to accept the 15% of the time he decides to throw up a 23 footer with 31 seconds left on the shot clock and nobody else has touched the ball, or recklessly drives in to the lane and throws up a prayer with 3 guys crowding him. Does that make sense?

Hey, at least we're gonna have Tyus Jones next year!

duke96
11-28-2013, 09:16 PM
I think Quinn falls into the Bill Simmons "10% theory," which is his way of defending guys like Russell Westbrook. You like 90% of what they bring to your team, but 10% of the time, they will make a terrible decision that will make wonder what the hell he was thinking. In Cook's case, this may be more like the 15% theory, but for the most part, you'll take it, because he's a good enough threat on offense, plays pretty good D, and makes enough plays for his teammates that you're willing to accept the 15% of the time he decides to throw up a 23 footer with 31 seconds left on the shot clock and nobody else has touched the ball, or recklessly drives in to the lane and throws up a prayer with 3 guys crowding him. Does that make sense?

Yes, completely.

Newton_14
11-28-2013, 09:26 PM
I think Quinn falls into the Bill Simmons "10% theory," which is his way of defending guys like Russell Westbrook. You like 90% of what they bring to your team, but 10% of the time, they will make a terrible decision that will make wonder what the hell he was thinking. In Cook's case, this may be more like the 15% theory, but for the most part, you'll take it, because he's a good enough threat on offense, plays pretty good D, and makes enough plays for his teammates that you're willing to accept the 15% of the time he decides to throw up a 23 footer with 31 seconds left on the shot clock and nobody else has touched the ball, or recklessly drives in to the lane and throws up a prayer with 3 guys crowding him. Does that make sense?

Hey, at least we're gonna have Tyus Jones next year!

Yep. Perfect sense. As an example, in the Bama game, his good/great plays far out numbered his bad/terrible plays. It's just that most of his bad plays came at a time where it was magnified due to time/score/situation. To be clear, I am not trying to throw him under the bus or ask for him to be benched. I love it when he drives under control and scores. It gives us a great boost especially without a back to the basket scorer like Mason on the squad. He has star potential and the ability to dominate a game when he is at his best. On the press, rather than retreating like he did the other night, he needs to channel his Ty Lawson type abilities and use his speed and superb ballhandling skills to rush the ball up the court before the press can even get set, and attack the press to score by finding open teammates after breaking the press. He has that rare ability I believe to break a press by himself if he identifies the open lanes and blazes through them.

Quinn is knocking on the door of being where he needs to be as an All-ACC guard. Like u indicated, it is about finding a way to eliminate that 10 to 15% error rate. No kid will play a perfect game. Quinn just needs to lower that error percentage down to say 5%.

FerryFor50
11-28-2013, 10:33 PM
On the press, rather than retreating like he did the other night, he needs to channel his Ty Lawson type abilities and use his speed and superb ballhandling skills to rush the ball up the court before the press can even get set, and attack the press to score by finding open teammates after breaking the press. He has that rare ability I believe to break a press by himself if he identifies the open lanes and blazes through them.

Quinn is knocking on the door of being where he needs to be as an All-ACC guard. Like u indicated, it is about finding a way to eliminate that 10 to 15% error rate. No kid will play a perfect game. Quinn just needs to lower that error percentage down to say 5%.

Quinn definitely has the ability - he showed that last season during the early season tournaments.

Quinn's issues aren't physical - it's all decision making.

Kedsy
11-28-2013, 10:58 PM
On the press, rather than retreating like he did the other night, he needs to channel his Ty Lawson type abilities and use his speed and superb ballhandling skills to rush the ball up the court before the press can even get set, and attack the press to score by finding open teammates after breaking the press. He has that rare ability I believe to break a press by himself if he identifies the open lanes and blazes through them.


I'm going to disagree a little bit here. I believe Quinn's problems against Alabama's press arose because he tried to break the press by himself.

azzefkram
11-28-2013, 11:36 PM
I guess Quinn will be this year's Mason. It astounds me how people will nitpick to death the second most important player on the team while bending over backward to laud some of the exceptionally mediocre players. Does anyone think it's an accident that Quinn is leading the team in minutes played? Seven games into the season and he's played about a half more than Rodney and almost a full game more than Jabari. Can he make some ill-advised drives to the hoop? You betcha, but at no greater rate than Jabari, Rodney, Sheed or Matt. If anything, I'd say Jabari and Rodney are more guilty of this than Quinn (Both have higher turnover rates than Quinn). It's just being masked by their outstanding shooting. As for breaking the press, Quinn didn't have a tough time with it... Duke did. It is rare for one player to consistently break a press on his own.

Quinn has his faults but he has become consistently better each year in just about every category. He has far fewer warts than anybody not named Jabari.

azzefkram
11-29-2013, 12:24 AM
I guess Quinn will be this year's Mason. It astounds me how people will nitpick to death the second most important player on the team while bending over backward to laud some of the exceptionally mediocre players. Does anyone think it's an accident that Quinn is leading the team in minutes played? Seven games into the season and he's played about a half more than Rodney and almost a full game more than Jabari. Can he make some ill-advised drives to the hoop? You betcha, but at no greater rate than Jabari, Rodney, Sheed or Matt. If anything, I'd say Jabari and Rodney are more guilty of this than Quinn (Both have higher turnover rates than Quinn). It's just being masked by their outstanding shooting. As for breaking the press, Quinn didn't have a tough time with it... Duke did. It is rare for one player to consistently break a press on his own.

Quinn has his faults but he has become consistently better each year in just about every category. He has far fewer warts than anybody not named Jabari.

I couldn't figure out how to edit my post. Exceptionally mediocre is unnecessarily harsh and not a fair or valid characterization of any of our player. More limited is the phrase I should have used.

Furniture
11-29-2013, 12:44 AM
I'm not exactly sure if Quinn was entirely to blame for our press issues. Some yes but surely the other players have to want the ball and give him options. Did they?

uh_no
11-29-2013, 01:44 AM
I guess Quinn will be this year's Mason. It astounds me how people will nitpick to death the second most important player on the team while bending over backward to laud some of the exceptionally mediocre players. Does anyone think it's an accident that Quinn is leading the team in minutes played? Seven games into the season and he's played about a half more than Rodney and almost a full game more than Jabari. Can he make some ill-advised drives to the hoop? You betcha, but at no greater rate than Jabari, Rodney, Sheed or Matt. If anything, I'd say Jabari and Rodney are more guilty of this than Quinn (Both have higher turnover rates than Quinn). It's just being masked by their outstanding shooting.

Quinn has his faults but he has become consistently better each year in just about every category. He has far fewer warts than anybody not named Jabari.

Being the starting point guard and playing a lot of minutes go hand in hand...not that he's NOT am important part of the team, but I think the minutes played is a weak one in this circumstance. Further, adding up minutes over 7 games is a bit of a mischaracterization.....that equates to 3-5 minutes more per game....yes, that's a big difference, but no more than one would expect considering our relative depth at the PG vs forward positions....


As for breaking the press, Quinn didn't have a tough time with it... Duke did. It is rare for one player to consistently break a press on his own.


It's hard for the entire team to have a tough time when quinn would often refuse to pass the ball after dribbling into double and triple teams, trying to do what you claim is impossible: break the press on his own....there isn't much the rest of the team can do other than be open. Is the rest of the team faultless? absolutely not....is the point guard the person holding the most responsibility in breaking the press? most certainly.....

the team needs to work on breaking the press, but to pretend that quinn excelled at leading the press break is silly.

further, i'm not sure how a player's 'importantness' to a team shields them from criticism....the closer on a baseball team is hugely important, but that doesn't mean they can't be terrible, and thus open to criticism (sorry, just thinking of the recent situation of the Mets bullpen....not tryiing to insinuate that i think quinn is terrible...as obviously that's not the case....quite the opposite)....further further, when you have a team two years in a row that has trouble breaking the press (anyone else reminisce about the louisville game in the tourney watching the press break last night???), and almost the entire team has changed around the PG....how is pointing out the fact that the PG has not improved in the situation considered nit-picking? If it has the potential to cost us games (and it was certainly a major contributor to the loss in the tournament...) then it's not nit picking

quinn does some things really well, and he has some things he needs to work on....and that is true of everyone that puts on the uniform...I don't care if you're Laettner or jay will....EVERYONE has things to work on....one of the things quinn needs to work on is the press.

jv001
11-29-2013, 10:05 AM
Being the starting point guard and playing a lot of minutes go hand in hand...not that he's NOT am important part of the team, but I think the minutes played is a weak one in this circumstance. Further, adding up minutes over 7 games is a bit of a mischaracterization.....that equates to 3-5 minutes more per game....yes, that's a big difference, but no more than one would expect considering our relative depth at the PG vs forward positions....



It's hard for the entire team to have a tough time when quinn would often refuse to pass the ball after dribbling into double and triple teams, trying to do what you claim is impossible: break the press on his own....there isn't much the rest of the team can do other than be open. Is the rest of the team faultless? absolutely not....is the point guard the person holding the most responsibility in breaking the press? most certainly.....

the team needs to work on breaking the press, but to pretend that quinn excelled at leading the press break is silly.

further, i'm not sure how a player's 'importantness' to a team shields them from criticism....the closer on a baseball team is hugely important, but that doesn't mean they can't be terrible, and thus open to criticism (sorry, just thinking of the recent situation of the Mets bullpen....not tryiing to insinuate that i think quinn is terrible...as obviously that's not the case....quite the opposite)....further further, when you have a team two years in a row that has trouble breaking the press (anyone else reminisce about the louisville game in the tourney watching the press break last night???), and almost the entire team has changed around the PG....how is pointing out the fact that the PG has not improved in the situation considered nit-picking? If it has the potential to cost us games (and it was certainly a major contributor to the loss in the tournament...) then it's not nit picking

quinn does some things really well, and he has some things he needs to work on....and that is true of everyone that puts on the uniform...I don't care if you're Laettner or jay will....EVERYONE has things to work on....one of the things quinn needs to work on is the press.

The way Duke tried to break the press, it looked like we'd never worked on that phase of the game. And we know that's not the case with Coach K. But it sure looked like Quinn tried to do it all by himself. Did the other players get open as they should, probably not. But looking at the replay, it seemed the inbounds passer missed an open man in the middle of the court a few times. It looked like he was not going to pass it to anyone other than Quinn. At least it looked that way to me. I was afraid we were going to get the 5 second call on more than one possession. GoDuke!

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-29-2013, 10:32 AM
Players like Hurley and JWill and Kyrie could break the press alone. Quinn doesn't have quite that degree of control or handle. Thus, there is one sure fire way to break the press AND score... Pass the ball. Usually a bigger guy in the middle near center court who gets the ball, turns opposite, passes again and there is often a 2- or 3-on-1. Yes, other players need to be in the right position. That's really the easy part. A little practice should make a huge difference. I have faith this will be addressed.

arnie
11-29-2013, 11:07 AM
Players like Hurley and JWill and Kyrie could break the press alone. Quinn doesn't have quite that degree of control or handle. Thus, there is one sure fire way to break the press AND score... Pass the ball. Usually a bigger guy in the middle near center court who gets the ball, turns opposite, passes again and there is often a 2- or 3-on-1. Yes, other players need to be in the right position. That's really the easy part. A little practice should make a huge difference. I have faith this will be addressed.

Very well stated. Quinn needs help ( similar to most point guards) and can get it from Parker, Hood and other guards. We just need to make pressing teams "pay" when the press is broken.

tux
11-29-2013, 03:28 PM
The way Duke tried to break the press, it looked like we'd never worked on that phase of the game. And we know that's not the case with Coach K. But it sure looked like Quinn tried to do it all by himself. Did the other players get open as they should, probably not. But looking at the replay, it seemed the inbounds passer missed an open man in the middle of the court a few times. It looked like he was not going to pass it to anyone other than Quinn. At least it looked that way to me. I was afraid we were going to get the 5 second call on more than one possession. GoDuke!

I agree that it looked like something that Duke hadn't practiced a whole lot. But, I also think it's possible that this team hasn't really worked on breaking the press that much. Early in the season, and with such a young team -- with returning players being asked to fill new roles around Hood and Parker, I can imagine breaking the press not being very high on the list of things to focus on. I mean, this Duke team doesn't seem like the type of team you'd press... given the number of ball handlers and finishers out there. It turns out -- at least right now -- that we are in fact a team that can be pressed. At one point, Quinn (or someone else) had 3 Alabama players trapping them --- that leaves 2 defenders covering 4 Duke players. So, yeah, I have a feeling we'll do better next time...

jv001
11-29-2013, 04:04 PM
Players like Hurley and JWill and Kyrie could break the press alone. Quinn doesn't have quite that degree of control or handle. Thus, there is one sure fire way to break the press AND score... Pass the ball. Usually a bigger guy in the middle near center court who gets the ball, turns opposite, passes again and there is often a 2- or 3-on-1. Yes, other players need to be in the right position. That's really the easy part. A little practice should make a huge difference. I have faith this will be addressed.

Those three players you named could beat the press almost by themselves. But there are few of those guards around college basketball any longer. Duke has used a big man in the middle near center court to pass the ball to. Then another quick one or two passes could end up with a layup for this team. No way this team should falter against the press. GoDuke!