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View Full Version : DeCourcy Writes Article on Duke OADs



KYtotheCore
11-23-2013, 08:08 AM
I apologize if this has already been posted. It was on the UK board with no actual link to the story . . . just cut-and-pasted it. I respect this board and it's posters, and mean no ill-will with posting it, mosreso just curious about the board's perspective on it now that a few years have past since OADs have established themselves in college bball?

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http://kentucky.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1383&tid=194776343&mid=194776343&sid=888&style=2

Faison1
11-23-2013, 08:13 AM
Our kids are nicer.

Newton_14
11-23-2013, 08:53 AM
I apologize if this has already been posted. It was on the UK board with no actual link to the story . . . just cut-and-pasted it. I respect this board and it's posters, and mean no ill-will with posting it, mosreso just curious about the board's perspective on it now that a few years have past since OADs have established themselves in college bball?

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http://kentucky.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1383&tid=194776343&mid=194776343&sid=888&style=2


Sorry could not find the article. Only saw your forum. I think there is actually a big difference. Calipari makes no bones about it that he wants everyone of his recruits to OAD every year. That's his goal and he states it every time. He talks over and over about how he is helping provide them a lifestyle of luxury and cash. He targets 6 or 7 kids every year that are likely to be OAD. His goal is to get them all, have a great season, and then see every single one get drafted that next June.

K has never stated that to be one of his goals and K typically targets only 1 or at most 2 OAD kids a year, and hopes that they will stay for at least 2 years before going. K has stated over and over that he believes even the best need to stay 2 years. Also, in looking at this class, there is only one surefire OAD and that is Okafor. Jones is likely to be a 2 year player, Winslow is a likely 2 yr if not 3 yr player, and Grayson Allen is a 4 yr kid. I know due to the Duke hate, the majority of folks will insist that the first 3 kids are surefire OAD and Allen is likely a 2 yr kid. That does not make it true though.

Not trying to view this with Duke Blue Blinders but I just do not think the comparison holds water.

freshmanjs
11-23-2013, 08:56 AM
Sporting News Story and Video (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-11-22/duke-2014-recruiting-class-one-and-done-coach-k-kentucky-john-calipari)

bob blue devil
11-23-2013, 09:11 AM
mosreso just curious about the board's perspective on it now that a few years have past since OADs have established themselves in college bball?


first and foremost, i don't trust cal. i don't like cal. he's got a track record of bad behavior in the ncaa and in the nba. it seems to me his goodwill is purely calculated and he is not genuine. i root strongly against kentucky.

all of that said, i have never had an issue with his seeking to build classes of one and dones. yes, one and dones aren't great for college basketball, but the nba is making the rules and we have to play by them. it would be nice if there was another way, but that's not kentucky's or cal's fault. it's actually nice that someone is unabashedly supporting these kids dreams in a distorted system. i think there are a lot of people who are caught in the past and look at every kentucky loss as absolute proof that building a program around underclassman is a mistake. the fact is kentucky has proven it can work - there is at most one team each year that can bring in the majority of the truly elite freshman. kentucky's results are pretty darn good - since cal took over, they've arguably had the most success out of any program. with over 300 other teams, surely a few should have achieved better results simply by luck. this is very strong evidence that the strategy works (if you can employ to employ it, and, by definition, at most one team can each year).

back to my criticism - i don't trust cal. i suspect great shadiness in his putting together these great classes. i'm not saying money, but sleazy, unethical recruiting tactics and the like. all show and no substance. he, the kids, and UK have an unholy alliance where i don't think they each would support each other in dark times, but their interests have conveniently met.

in terms of duke's pursuit of likely one and dones. i'm fully supportive of coach k bringing in players that a) will represent the university well, b) will embrace the university's community, c) are in a position to succeed academically at the university, d) are in a position to contribute the most to duke's basketball success, and e) have extremely bright futures that will allow them to continue to represent the university well beyond their days at duke. if you look at the likely one and dones coach k has targeted, they very much seem to fit these criteria (of course hindsight is perfect, and not every case will end up meeting these expectations).

Newton_14
11-23-2013, 09:11 AM
Sporting News Story and Video (http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2013-11-22/duke-2014-recruiting-class-one-and-done-coach-k-kentucky-john-calipari)

Thanks. One other thing. The part of the article I pasted below, most notably the part I put in bold, is way off base. I have always liked and respected DeCourcy but he is way offbase with these comments, and he also referred to all 3 of our top kids as true OAD caliber kids which I said earlier is just not factual.


We’ve said this before, but perhaps not often enough. The current 19-year age limit rule is not as good for basketball as a 20-year limit would be, but it still is the best thing to happen to basketball at the high school, college and professional levels since the NBA made the mistake of installing a rookie salary scale nearly two decades ago. The age limit has gotten pro scouts out of high school gyms, encouraged high school players to pay more attention to their academic courses in order to qualify for the best possible pre-NBA training ground, and it has allowed college fans to see the finest players of their generation compete for conference championships and the NCAA title

BD80
11-23-2013, 09:37 AM
I actually admire the energy calipari brings to college basketball. To put things in perspective, Coach K commented on Duke's recent recruiting haul: "it was three years in the making." And calipari lands such recruiting classes EVERY year. His 2014 class is #2 behind Duke. He brought in SEVEN recruits in this year's freshman class, including SIX McD AAs. Granted, he doesn't have to worry about the academic qualifications, but the time and energy required to recruit at that level every year to replace kids who only stay a year must be enormous.

Once cal gets all this talent on campus, he must teach them to play college basketball as a team, starting fresh EVERY year. By the end of the year, he usually has them playing pretty good team defense (easier when you have an Anthony Davis erasing mistakes).

I think calipari is shady and belongs in the pro game, but he deserves credit for what he has done.

An amusing note: Seth Greenberg and Bruce Pearl as studio analysts in ESPN games last night each said that calipari and Self were responsible for unc's decline, by getting the players that unc would typically get.

Dr. Rosenrosen
11-23-2013, 10:19 AM
Well, I could never imagine K or anyone at Duke declaring a "successful" NBA draft night as the greatest day ever in a program's history just because a bunch of OAD's got picked up in Rd1. But that's the stick by which Cal and Ky now measure success. So be it.

weezie
11-23-2013, 10:55 AM
DeCourcy has a bad combover. That's about all I notice about him. When all is said and done, it's up to each and every player, it's their right to do as they please. Why is kentucky so sensitive about their victories? So touchy?
It's fun to stir the pot, especially in college bball.

oldnavy
11-23-2013, 11:06 AM
Sorry could not find the article. Only saw your forum. I think there is actually a big difference. Calipari makes no bones about it that he wants everyone of his recruits to OAD every year. That's his goal and he states it every time. He talks over and over about how he is helping provide them a lifestyle of luxury and cash. He targets 6 or 7 kids every year that are likely to be OAD. His goal is to get them all, have a great season, and then see every single one get drafted that next June.

K has never stated that to be one of his goals and K typically targets only 1 or at most 2 OAD kids a year, and hopes that they will stay for at least 2 years before going. K has stated over and over that he believes even the best need to stay 2 years. Also, in looking at this class, there is only one surefire OAD and that is Okafor. Jones is likely to be a 2 year player, Winslow is a likely 2 yr if not 3 yr player, and Grayson Allen is a 4 yr kid. I know due to the Duke hate, the majority of folks will insist that the first 3 kids are surefire OAD and Allen is likely a 2 yr kid. That does not make it true though.

Not trying to view this with Duke Blue Blinders but I just do not think the comparison holds water.

Great post. There is a significant difference to the two approaches used by Cal and K.

Also, consider the alternative. Should we NOT recruit the top tier players? That would make no sense at all.

I like having a good mix of 3-4 year players with a couple of OAD's, that would be fine with me every year!!

mgtr
11-23-2013, 11:53 AM
I actually admire the energy calipari brings to college basketball. To put things in perspective, Coach K commented on Duke's recent recruiting haul: "it was three years in the making." And calipari lands such recruiting classes EVERY year. His 2014 class is #2 behind Duke. He brought in SEVEN recruits in this year's freshman class, including SIX McD AAs. Granted, he doesn't have to worry about the academic qualifications, but the time and energy required to recruit at that level every year to replace kids who only stay a year must be enormous.

Once cal gets all this talent on campus, he must teach them to play college basketball as a team, starting fresh EVERY year. By the end of the year, he usually has them playing pretty good team defense (easier when you have an Anthony Davis erasing mistakes).

I think calipari is shady and belongs in the pro game, but he deserves credit for what he has done.An amusing note: Seth Greenberg and Bruce Pearl as studio analysts in ESPN games last night each said that calipari and Self were responsible for unc's decline, by getting the players that unc would typically get.

Well, using the bolded part as the measuring stick, I guess that Whitey Bulger deserves credit for what he has done. :)

BD80
11-23-2013, 12:31 PM
Well, using the bolded part as the measuring stick, I guess that Whitey Bulger deserves credit for what he has done. :)

Reductio ad absurdum?

btw, MOST of the people Whitey killed were bad guys.

Side note: a do believe Whitey was a "booster" at UMass during the calipari years

DavidBenAkiva
11-23-2013, 01:53 PM
I found nothing particularly controversial about the article by DeCourcy. The national media ascribes, right or wrong, the one-and-done rule with Calipari. Other schools have recruited one-and-dones, but not whole hog the way he has. With Okafor and Jones, Duke has recruited more than one potential one-and-doner for the first time. It's not like Duke hasn't recruited top-rated talent before (Battier, Brand, Maggette, Duhon, and Deng come to mind). It's just that most have stuck around for a couple of years until recently. Still, the idea was to complement a team with many returning players with a couple of upper-echelon recruits.

Over the past couple of years, Duke has now targeted a potential one-and-doner in successive classes (Irving and then Rivers, now Parker and then Okafor and potentially Jones). Still, the bulk of the team will continue to be guys playing 3 or 4 years. Even if Parker and Hood go pro, only Okafor seems destined to be a starter without question. You have to think that Cook and Sulaimon will start for sure. Tyus Jones may join a starting lineup with three guards, but that might not happen. Jefferson, Matt Jones, and maybe Okeleye are just as likely to be in the starting lineup as either Tyus Jones or Justise Winslow. They will be major additions to the team, but not guaranteed anything.

With Kentucky, the team is essentially new every year. Sure, not everyone can start, but the continuity just isn't there. Alex Poythress and Willie Cauley-Stein are considered "veterans" as Sophomores. There's a difference there that DeCourcy didn't pick up.

What DeCourcy wrote wasn't controversial, it was just wrong. I still like the guy and what he brings to college basketball analysis.

1991 duke law
11-23-2013, 02:01 PM
There is a very clear and easy distinction between the approach of Calipari and Coach K.

Calipari sells a recruit on the following premises:

1. You arrive with the intention and expectation of being here one year.

2. You depart to the NBA after one year.

3. You live like a king for the year that you are here.

4. School is not the focus of your year here.

Coach K is likely selling a different potion:

1. You are going to succeed here and will have the option to go to the NBA after a year.

2. You will be attending an excellent academic institution which will stand you in go stead in the future.

3. You are learning from a hall of fame coach.

4. The parents are sold on an overall environment that transcends simply "you'll be in the nba".

5. This is an environment (academic, social and basketball) that you want to be in.

6. I have a track record of success - you will succeed here.

Coach K has accepted and adopted to the need to get top talent that may very well not stay long term. But he is not advocating or selling the notion of early departure - he is living with it.

I don't think that Archie Goodwin wanted to leave early last year - Calipari made him leave early. I may be wrong....

Kedsy
11-23-2013, 02:18 PM
Since Calipari has been at Kentucky, his top 7 minute-getters have been (upperclassmen bolded):

2010: FR, JR, FR, FR, SO, FR, FR
2011: FR, JR, FR, JR, SR, FR, FR
2012: FR, FR, SO, FR, SO, SR, FR
2013: SR, FR, FR, SO, SO, FR, FR
2014 (so far): FR, FR, FR, FR, SO, SO, FR

Here's Duke's top 7 in the recent seasons in which we've had OADs:

2011: SR, SR, FR*, SO, SO, SO, SO (*NOTE: I counted Kyrie in top 7 since he had 27.5 mpg and would have been in top 7 if healthy)
2012: FR, JR, JR, JR, JR, SR, SO
2014 (so far): JR, SO, FR, SO, SR, SO, SR
2015 (projected): SR, FR, JR, FR, JR, FR, SO

I think just looking at the number of bolded upperclassmen in both lists highlights the difference in philosophies.