Basketball attendance

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Didn't want to continue the tangential discussion in the post-game thread. I'm curious about this though and was talking about this with a current student a few weeks ago.

On the one hand, it seems totally nuts to me that we don't fill the student section every game. It's hugely fun. It's free. It's a rite of passage, etc... That said, there seems to be FAR greater anxiety and competitiveness among undergrads (even freshmen!) these days - literally worrying about how one course is going to affect their college career and work career. I was stunned but it sounds akin to the competitiveness you might see in law school or something like that. This seems to be an evolution of the cultural (one that I hate) and just don't see changing soon - or at all. I will argue til I'm blue in the face that this is a lame excuse to miss games.

But in talking with this student, what became clear is that the current tenting ritual and policies can be really tough on the students. Late night tent checks and interrupted sleep, sleeping outside for days/weeks, etc. That does have a material impact on their ability to be rested and focused on their course work. This student toughs it out and does the whole tenting thing but you could see that it's not easy. So I asked, why not remove or dramatically alter the policy and the response was that it removes all hierarchy and reward for the most committed. So there is resistance.

So, my (perhaps simplistic) conclusion is that since affecting student culture is difficult and a long-term issue, the focus might need to be on the student attendance/tenting policies that seem to be creating a situation where only the most extremely dedicated can/will put in the effort to attend the games. And there are not 1500 of them. I can understand that since in my 4 years (90-94) I only attended one UNC game (as a freshman) b/c tenting got so ridiculous. Maybe the policies need to change to meet both needs... full student section and less time sleeping outside.

I'm interested to hear what I'm missing, what I got wrong, and what others, especially students, think.

[Bluedog]

Tenting is not the issue because it's only for one (or two) games that have high demand and would fill all the seats regardless. If you make tenting easier that shouldn't affect the other games unless you argue that tenters aren't going to non-UNC games because they're spending so much time tenting (which would be stupid of them). Basically, for most games, you just need to show up half an hour early to get in, so I think education of this fact is key as many students are under the illusion you need to be there 3 hours early when that's not the case for the majority of games.

It's really not that big of a time commitment to get in for all games except a few like Michigan, UNC, Syracuse, etc. But, yeah, sometimes when you have a lot of work for the week and there's a Sunday game against somebody we'll destroy, it's hard to convince yourself it's worthwhile (Sunday games are the roughest). I attended all four UNC games in my career though. ;) And only missed a few games total when I was actually in Durham - only waited in line and didn't get in ONCE in my four years and that was a senior (for students, not players) game when I wasn't a senior (and the non-TV side had something like 80 football recruits who take up a lot of space...grrr...waited 90 minutes actually, which should have been plenty of time.)

[BlueDevilinNYC]

I'm interested to hear what I'm missing, what I got wrong, and what others, especially students, think.

I mean, low attendance at other sporting events is just something all football schools deal with, right??

[Channing]

Its a two hour time commitment to go to a basketball game (maybe 2.5 hours now with the ticky-tack foul rules). When Cameron is not full, you can walk up immediately before tip-off and get a standing position on the TV side, so there is no waiting requirement. I know most students are watching the game in their dorm room (or wherever) and are not likely being productive during that time (I know I'll break to watch a game even if I have a deal closing in the next day or so because I know I would just be checking the score every 30 seconds anyway) ... why not go to the game?

We have all been very spoiled over the past 30 years or so with excellence being the minimum expected out of our basketball team, but even still, we have had some "disappointing" seasons in the past several years. This team is amazingly fun to watch and there is a transcendent talent and other All-ACC types on this roster. I was sure we would at least get into the season this year before the attendance started dropping off. If students want to be Cameron Crazies, part of the responsibility is packing out the house. Otherwise, they are just fans.

[BlueDevilinNYC]

I was sure we would at least get into the season this year before the attendance started dropping off. If students want to be Cameron Crazies, part of the responsibility is packing out the house. Otherwise, they are just fans.

I know I joked on my last post, but here is my actual two cents.

I drove down from NYC for the football game this past Saturday. I had tickets through the athletic dept but I decided to sit in the students' section anyways (like old times). It was the first football game where I can remember the students standing for the entire game. Even during halftime a lot of people were up and about above the bowl grabbing food and what-not. Now, maybe it's just because I'm an old alum now (Trinity '11) but I was physically and emotionally drained after that football game. Although I missed only a few games in Cameron during my time at Duke, I think I would have been watching last night's game from the comfort of my dorm room, mostly cause I still don't know if I would have had the energy to make it two and a half hours being the best Crazie i could be.

Another thing to remember: Saturday afternoons in November were usually prime studying time for a lot of my classmates (I, however avoided the library at all costs). I doubt that any of the students that were at the football game Saturday went back to their dorms and studied or spent any of Sunday studying, either. And with mid-term season coming up, a lot of students probably felt they needed a night to catch up.

I'm not trying to make excuses for the students, but it is just one game. Let's see how the turnout is tonight and Sunday before judging this year's Crazies.

[devil84]

[Quote from the post-game thread]Going to be even sparser tonight, I'm betting, b/c it starts at 6pm and those of us with regular hour jobs have a hard enough time getting to the 7pm games. Coach K seems to always be clueless about that. I figured exams were playing a part in the low student turnout. They were there in full force on Friday, but the ticketholding crowd was smaller. Probably due to back-to-back Friday night games. And regarding the ticket prices, our EXHIBITION tickets were over $40 each. Seriously?

I, too, was thinking that the 6pm tip was really, really, really stupid on Duke's part. Then I saw the bracket (http://i.turner.ncaa.com/dr/ncaa/ncaa/release/sites/default/files/files/2013NITSeasonTip-OffBracket.pdf) with the TV times filled in. Notice that it's designed to have maximize the experience for the TV audience, not the people attending games. All of the sites have the first games tipping off at or before 6pm local time, and one of the games tips at 4:30 local time! If you're not happy with the tip time, be mad at ESPN and/or the NIT.

This is a really, really busy week for students (it worked out that my daughter could make it to last night's game, but she'll be in class tonight), and people in general. I can't tell you how many people I called had prior engagements for last night and tonight. Perhaps that's because Monday and Tuesday aren't normally basketball game days. Maybe it's because it's the last full week before the holiday season. Not to mention that tonight is the fourth men's major revenue sport contest in five days. That's pretty taxing on even a die-hard fan.

Regarding this year's schedule: we had exhibition games on two consecutive Saturdays. Not only were they two of the last reliably warm weekend days of the year to get things done outdoors, they happened during football season. Then there were two consecutive Friday night games. Trying to be there at 7pm on a Friday...it's not a regular game night and things seemed a bit out of sync, particularly the snarled traffic last Friday on I-40 (took an hour to make the 25 minute drive). But heck, it's date night in Cameron (works for me). Now with games last Friday in Cameron, Saturday in Wallace Wade, last night in Cameron, we're back at *6pm* tonight. For those that work outside of Durham, it'll be nearly impossible to make tip-off. Labs/classes are finishing at 6pm, affecting students. And we've hit the saturation point for traveling to and from games and taking time away from studies/family/whatever other obligations people have.

I have a few questions, though. Why weren't these games advertised as double-headers? There were no announcements to stay for the ECU-Norfolk St. game last night -- and only a few that even mentioned that there was even another game happening. I'm betting there won't be any for the second game tonight. Secondly, why weren't there Asheville, ECU, and Norfolk State fans wanting to buy tickets? I know there are plenty of Asheville and ECU fans in the Triangle. Where the heck were they? There were plenty of tickets to be had.

I guess my feathers are just a little ruffled that people are complaining about the lack of butts in seats. Are you near the Triangle? Come on out. Can't afford the $54 face for the tickets? You'll probably pick one up for half that (or even free) outside tonight. But whining about lack of people in the seats tonight is just going to be tuned out by those of us who went to the games -- or had to not use $54+ tickets (in some cases, 2-4 tickets, after spending most of a day attempting to find someone to take them) because traveling to three basketball games and a football game in four days is too much of a good thing for even die-hard fans. And this was an in-state opponent -- where were the opponent's fans? Things WILL get better in Cameron when we have less overlap between RANKED football and basketball programs (how cool is that?!), fewer games in a cluster, and we get to the rhythm of the mid-week/weekend games when there are fewer life distractions.

OK, back to discussing some cool things about the game. Like Dawkins' forcing a 5 second call (he should have had 2!). And Ojeleye getting more minutes and looking good. Our defense is adjusting to the new rules. Free throws are better. Parker is unbelievable. It's going to be a good year. Enjoy the ride.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The matter of student attendance at various athletic events has been discussed at length. There are many factors involved including quite a few which are part of national trends.

There is a change in attendance among season ticket holders for basketball as well. When I sit in Cameron I no longer see the same faces, game after game. It's a revolving door of occupants, many who are there for the first time acting as if they're visiting Disney World.

At one time I was very concerned about how this was playing out at Duke. Then I realized nothing stays the same. Time to move on and focus my energy elsewhere.

[devildeac]

:(
I, too, was thinking that the 6pm tip was really, really, really stupid on Duke's part. Then I saw the bracket (http://i.turner.ncaa.com/dr/ncaa/ncaa/release/sites/default/files/files/2013NITSeasonTip-OffBracket.pdf) with the TV times filled in. Notice that it's designed to have maximize the experience for the TV audience, not the people attending games. All of the sites have the first games tipping off at or before 6pm local time, and one of the games tips at 4:30 local time! If you're not happy with the tip time, be mad at ESPN and/or the NIT.

This is a really, really busy week for students (it worked out that my daughter could make it to last night's game, but she'll be in class tonight), and people in general. I can't tell you how many people I called had prior engagements for last night and tonight. Perhaps that's because Monday and Tuesday aren't normally basketball game days. Maybe it's because it's the last full week before the holiday season. Not to mention that tonight is the fourth men's major revenue sport contest in five days. That's pretty taxing on even a die-hard fan.

Regarding this year's schedule: we had exhibition games on two consecutive Saturdays. Not only were they two of the last reliably warm weekend days of the year to get things done outdoors, they happened during football season. Then there were two consecutive Friday night games. Trying to be there at 7pm on a Friday...it's not a regular game night and things seemed a bit out of sync, particularly the snarled traffic last Friday on I-40 (took an hour to make the 25 minute drive). But heck, it's date night in Cameron (works for me). Now with games last Friday in Cameron, Saturday in Wallace Wade, last night in Cameron, we're back at *6pm* tonight. For those that work outside of Durham, it'll be nearly impossible to make tip-off. Labs/classes are finishing at 6pm, affecting students. And we've hit the saturation point for traveling to and from games and taking time away from studies/family/whatever other obligations people have.

I have a few questions, though. Why weren't these games advertised as double-headers? There were no announcements to stay for the ECU-Norfolk St. game last night -- and only a few that even mentioned that there was even another game happening. I'm betting there won't be any for the second game tonight. Secondly, why weren't there Asheville, ECU, and Norfolk State fans wanting to buy tickets? I know there are plenty of Asheville and ECU fans in the Triangle. Where the heck were they? There were plenty of tickets to be had.

I guess my feathers are just a little ruffled that people are complaining about the lack of butts in seats. Are you near the Triangle? Come on out. Can't afford the $54 face for the tickets? You'll probably pick one up for half that (or even free) outside tonight. But whining about lack of people in the seats tonight is just going to be tuned out by those of us who went to the games -- or had to not use $54+ tickets (in some cases, 2-4 tickets, after spending most of a day attempting to find someone to take them) because traveling to three basketball games and a football game in four days is too much of a good thing for even die-hard fans. And this was an in-state opponent -- where were the opponent's fans? Things WILL get better in Cameron when we have less overlap between RANKED football and basketball programs (how cool is that?!), fewer games in a cluster, and we get to the rhythm of the mid-week/weekend games when there are fewer life distractions.

OK, back to discussing some cool things about the game. Like Dawkins' forcing a 5 second call (he should have had 2!). And Ojeleye getting more minutes and looking good. Our defense is adjusting to the new rules. Free throws are better. Parker is unbelievable. It's going to be a good year. Enjoy the ride.

Way to make me feel guilty about not using your extra tix last night:( :( . As it turned out, I didn't leave work until 615 anyway and then had a 7PM event. Will come by and bother you tonight to beg your forgiveness ;) .

[sagegrouse]

The matter of student attendance at various athletic events has been discussed at length. There are many factors involved including quite a few which are part of national trends.

There is a change in attendance among season ticket holders for basketball as well. When I sit in Cameron I no longer see the same faces, game after game. It's a revolving door of occupants, many who are there for the first time acting as if they're visiting Disney World.

At one time I was very concerned about how this was playing out at Duke. Then I realized nothing stays the same. Time to move on and focus my energy elsewhere.

One explanation: the market has been rationalized. As it turns out, Duke season tickets, a luxury good if there ever was one, can be subdivided among many users -- and it's happening. (And, no, the Iron Dukes office does not care who you sell your game tickets to, 'cuz that would depress their value, and their job is raising money.)

Apropos of this -- well, maybe not -- super premium Bordeaux wines now sell primarily in half-case sizes (6 bottles). Perhaps Duke should offer either-or packages for just one-half the games.

sagegrouse

[devil84]

:(

Way to make me feel guilty about not using your extra tix last night:( :( . As it turned out, I didn't leave work until 615 anyway and then had a 7PM event. Will come by and bother you tonight to beg your forgiveness ;) .

Haha...that was not meant to make you feel guilty. You weren't the only one to turn me down. Lotsa people did. Lots and lots of people. *sigh* I almost had a complex until I saw the number of empty seats last night.

Apparently, here in the Triangle, we book lots of things to happen on Mondays because there usually isn't men's basketball.

And I carefully crafted my post to make sure that I didn't call out any list members/readers. You did that yourself. <gd&r>

(You've used all the smilies allowable in one post that I quoted. Had to go old school. Translation for the youngun's/non-techies on the board: "gd&r" is "grins, ducks, & runs")

[1 24 90]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131119/SPORTS0202/311190029/-1/rss12

Apparently, #1 MSU is having an attendance problem too.

[uh_no]

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131119/SPORTS0202/311190029/-1/rss12

Apparently, #1 MSU is having an attendance problem too.

it's almost as if people want good games rather than top dogs beating up directional schools....

IMO schools reap what they sow in these early season matchups....if you want people to show up, schedule higher caliber teams

i know duke is forced into it by the preseason NIT and can't play kansas every weekend....but that's the answer...why would I show up at a meaningless blowout game when I can stay at home and have at my fingertips every other sports event in the world?

[m g]

Any student can walk up at gametime for all but the biggest games. It comes down to some combination of laziness or a lack of interest in the team.

People my age love to complain about how busy they are, but somehow find time to watch an entire season of a TV show in a single weekend. Don't buy the lies people tell themselves.

[OldPhiKap]

i'll throw something else out there:

It's the middle of November and I am close to reaching saturation point already. Duke-KU and MSU-KY; games on odd days (Friday? Monday?); football races still to be decided. Where there used to be one or two games to choose from on a given night (if any at all), there are three to five games on every night and have been for almost a month already.

It was not that long ago when a Thanksgiving tournament was the beginning of the season, if you were lucky enough to be in one. Here, we will have played eight games before we even get to December. (plus two scrimages available for viewing)

I am far from a casual fan -- but there are limits to what I can do. And I am sure the same applies to everyone.

It's still football season for most of the country. Other than the Commonwealth of Kentucky, do you think most folks in SEC country have even started to think about basketball in a meaningful way?

[DevilWearsPrada]

The Student section was about 2/3 full last night. The Ticket office should have sold several hundred to the Public.

Announcements were made at the Girls Game on Sunday, about the mens games on Monday and Tuesday. And also, last night at the game. My friends bought tickets for "The Standing Section" for the Tuesday night game vs ECU.

The Students were great at the Football game on Saturday. I love the Band in the middle of the student section! The Students were great this year for Football season!!!

With Duke Men's basketball on TV or the Blue Devil Network, I assume most of the students are in their dorm rooms, or common areas, watching the games while studying or having dinner, or just relaxing. That is what I have heard from several students.

I remember Coach K saying a few years ago (think it was the 2006/07 or 07/08 seasons).... that if the Students do not come to the games, the Ticket office will sale tickets for section 17.

Duke Basketball is a luxury item. For season holders, paying Iron Dukes annual contributions, and purchasing Season tickets is a $$$$ and more commitment each year. For the Students, just walk up and swipe your ID! I hope to see more Students in Attendance!!! Go Duke!

[Atlanta Duke]

As noted in the article linked above regarding MSU, student attendance at the games is not only an issue at Duke

Duke’s sparse crowd continues a trend

As a long-time athletics administration official told me at the UK-Vanderbilt football game at Saturday, “Young people are just not going to the games like they used to. There's too many other things for them to do.”

http://johnclay.bloginky.com/2013/11/19/dukes-sparse-crowd-continues-a-trend/

This problem extends to successful football programs where there are far fewer games to attend

Declining Student Attendance Hits Georgia
At Campuses Across the Country, More Reasons Than Ever to Skip the Game

Student indifference is easy to spot at matchups they expect to be lopsided: 45% of the student seats went unused at Georgia's non-SEC games. In the Big Ten, Michigan's student section had wide swaths of empty rows before kickoff Sept. 14 against Akron, the week after a stirring home win over rival Notre Dame. At Ohio State, the student no-show rate hit 26% for a game last season against lowly UAB.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304795804579097223907738780

[Stray Gator]

it's almost as if people want good games rather than top dogs beating up directional schools....

IMO schools reap what they sow in these early season matchups....if you want people to show up, schedule higher caliber teams

i know duke is forced into it by the preseason NIT and can't play kansas every weekend....but that's the answer...why would I show up at a meaningless blowout game when I can stay at home and have at my fingertips every other sports event in the world?

We attended the game last night, as we did the game Friday night; and we'll be at the game later today. I understand that others may feel differently, but from my perspective, no game that Duke plays is meaningless. Because I reside in Florida, I can't attend all of the home games, but I come to as many as I can. While we all savor the closely contested matches, I also enjoy the games in which I get to see and cheer for those players who normally don't get off the bench. And as I remarked to my son when we were leaving last night, it's sometimes a pleasant change to be able to relax during a game and take in some of the action away from the ball that would normally escape my attention. But most of all, even after decades of following Duke basketball and attending hundreds of games, it's still just plain fun.

[Highlander]

Were any of the seats reserved for the second game of the evening? On Facebook I saw a reference that Duke had to reserve some of the student section seats for people coming for the second game of the evening.

I have been watching Duke basketball for 30 years and I have NEVER seen the student section that empty before. It looked like a women's game. However, I believe the upper deck was pretty well represented.

If it wasn't a reservation issue I hope the athletic department sells those tickets. If the students don't want to use them, there are a lot of people who will pay good money to sit there. And once they get those seats, the students will have a hard time getting them back.

[DukeHLM'13]

I think there a couple of major points the affect the student attendance at football games. The first of these, which is unique to Duke among most of the top basketball schools, is the simple fact that there are only about 6000 undergrads to fill a student section that I'm guessing isn't all that much smaller than most school's student sections, and is almost certainly much larger as compared to the student population. While I don't see this as much of a reason to fill the student section (we used to routinely fill a larger section), it probably does indicate that Duke is actually doing a lot better than many other schools.

The second reason (and the one that is really the problem) is that the student body just isn't as interested in basketball as it used to be. The demographic of Duke students is wildly different than it was 10-15 years ago. Yes, the reason that I, and a lot of my close friends, chose to go to Duke was due in large part to the basketball team, but that mentality is becoming more and more rare among the student body. Its unfortunate I think for both athletics and the social aspect of Duke, but it is a reality of the types of students who come along with a top 10 academic school that accepts less than 10% of the students who apply.

[killerleft]

i'll throw something else out there:

It's the middle of November and I am close to reaching saturation point already. Duke-KU and MSU-KY; games on odd days (Friday? Monday?); football races still to be decided. Where there used to be one or two games to choose from on a given night (if any at all), there are three to five games on every night and have been for almost a month already.

It was not that long ago when a Thanksgiving tournament was the beginning of the season, if you were lucky enough to be in one. Here, we will have played eight games before we even get to December. (plus two scrimages available for viewing)

I am far from a casual fan -- but there are limits to what I can do. And I am sure the same applies to everyone.

It's still football season for most of the country. Other than the Commonwealth of Kentucky, do you think most folks in SEC country have even started to think about basketball in a meaningful way?

Duke Football needs me, so I'm going to WF Saturday! Duke Basketball is mostly playing yawners right now, and as you say, it's not really basketball season yet.

I find that the excessive time spent on commercial interruption during either sport to be a major turn-off. Committed fans will show up, but the casual fans probably find the downtime incredibly boring. The most hated guy at a Duke football game isn't a Tar Heel, it's the Man in Red who graciously alerts the refs when the time is ripe to get in a couple or three plays. Colleges and TV are slowly killing the golden goose.

[DU82]

i'll throw something else out there:

It's the middle of November and I am close to reaching saturation point already. Duke-KU and MSU-KY; games on odd days (Friday? Monday?); football races still to be decided. Where there used to be one or two games to choose from on a given night (if any at all), there are three to five games on every night and have been for almost a month already.

It was not that long ago when a Thanksgiving tournament was the beginning of the season, if you were lucky enough to be in one. Here, we will have played eight games before we even get to December. (plus two scrimages available for viewing)

I am far from a casual fan -- but there are limits to what I can do. And I am sure the same applies to everyone.

It's still football season for most of the country. Other than the Commonwealth of Kentucky, do you think most folks in SEC country have even started to think about basketball in a meaningful way?

Devil84 hit on many of my points, but you added another, over-saturation. Between football and basketball (men's and women's) I will have been on campus Thursday-Friday-Saturday-Sunday-Monday-Tuesday-Thursday-Saturday (@Wake)-Sunday. All but two days in that stretch. That's a lot for anybody, I don't have a life so it's fun for me, but it doesn't leave a lot of time for anything else right now. Those that DO have things to do outside of watching sports can't make it to every single event. (One thing I miss is a Chick-Fil-A sandwich at Cameron for dinner those nights. The replacement food just doesn't match up.)

This scheduling happens every year when the seasons overlap, and basketball is fitting in all the revenue, I mean non-conference, games. When it gets back to two games a week it's be easier and Cameron will be full.

Attendance (students and upstairs) was fine for the first two regular season games. But we literally couldn't give away tickets last night. It happens.

[DU82]

Duke Football needs me, so I'm going to WF Saturday! Duke Basketball is mostly playing yawners right now, and as you say, it's not really basketball season yet.

I find that the excessive time spent on commercial interruption during either sport to be a major turn-off. Committed fans will show up, but the casual fans probably find the downtime incredibly boring. The most hated guy at a Duke football game isn't a Tar Heel, it's the Man in Red who graciously alerts the refs when the time is ripe to get in a couple or three plays. Colleges and TV are slowly killing the golden goose.

He's also the most hated man at other schools. He wears red at Virginia, and probably Wake. I'll ask the State fans at work if he wears red there, too.

The money's coming in from TV, and the events are now taylored to TV rather than those that attend the games in person. Anybody who's been to the Final Four lately knows that. In order to pack in more people, the majority AT THE GAME have to watch it on TV so they can actually see what's going on.

The NFL is having the same problem, and is trying to add to the "experience" for those attending the games. That includes WiFi, and things going on during timeouts. Of course, the best thing they could do is reduce the timeouts. So, everything you said!

Interesting that a big story in the paper today is that UNC is looking at renovating or replacing the DESSAC. Bubba was quoted as saying they're looking at "revenue streams." Not how to improve the place for fans, but for money. That's the only thing that's important to too many today.

(Time for me to get off the soap box and start my uphill walk to school through the snow.)

[uh_no]

Were any of the seats reserved for the second game of the evening? On Facebook I saw a reference that Duke had to reserve some of the student section seats for people coming for the second game of the evening.

I have been watching Duke basketball for 30 years and I have NEVER seen the student section that empty before. It looked like a women's game. However, I believe the upper deck was pretty well represented.

If it wasn't a reservation issue I hope the athletic department sells those tickets. If the students don't want to use them, there are a lot of people who will pay good money to sit there. And once they get those seats, the students will have a hard time getting them back.

it's been less full than that....i've been to games where at tip there were only 4-5 rows of students at center court....for ACC games...two of the worst were ill timed early season BC and UVA games, if i recall

[6th Man]

Last night's attendance really struck me because I have never seen so much open space in the bleachers of the student section. There is always this discussion this same time of year, but that was the worst I have seen it. For me it isn't about criticizing the student body during this busy time during the school year. I wish there was a better way to guage student interest/conflicts to where the seating could be occupied by fans that would love to be there. I can't imagine Cameron not being filled to capacity if there were ways to communicate that tickets would or could be available. (If it was communicated that some were available for last night, it was done poorly) Just don't think it is really possible to know for sure what to expect or how many seats could be available.

I see comments about meaningless blow out games, but I know Coach K doesn't approach the games in such a manner. Nor does the team. They are all important and last night we were able to see kids like Semi Ojeleye get some important development.

[scottdude8]

Can't find the link at the moment, but Laura Keeley mentioned in one of her Duke Now blog posts that part of the issue was that the NIT required Duke to set aside an allotment of tickets, including some in the student section, for the other 3 teams in the regional. Obviously that wasn't the whole issue, but I'm sure it contributed a bit. In my time at Duke this type of attendance was very common for early season, not so great games... and I'm sure it was exacerbated by the fact that it is nearing mid-term time for many students. I know around this time I often had to go to only the first half of games because I wanted to be there, but had an Orgo test the next day...

[Dev11]

The second reason (and the one that is really the problem) is that the student body just isn't as interested in basketball as it used to be. The demographic of Duke students is wildly different than it was 10-15 years ago. Yes, the reason that I, and a lot of my close friends, chose to go to Duke was due in large part to the basketball team, but that mentality is becoming more and more rare among the student body. Its unfortunate I think for both athletics and the social aspect of Duke, but it is a reality of the types of students who come along with a top 10 academic school that accepts less than 10% of the students who apply.

I graduated in '11, and I recall hearing sometime around 2010 that for the first time in decades, the most popular answer on the Duke application about why the student wanted to attend Duke was no longer basketball. It was supplanted by Duke Engage.

The times they are a-changin'.

[scottdude8]

That's definitely true (I gave tours and it was something they liked us to emphasize, haha). I think the main issue is, as others have mentioned, advertising to students that you can show up at game time and get into 95% of the games. During my last two years ('11 and '12) there was a concerted effort by the the athletic department and line monitors to do this, but for whatever reason it never really got through. When its midterm time, taking 3 hours out of your night (really more when you consider how drained you are after a game) isn't something that everyone can do, even the most diehard fans. Some of my friends who slept out in the snow on the sidewalk for Maryland games just couldn't give up that study time during midterm time for a low-caliber opponent. That's just what we have to deal with as a top-tier academic institution--we're a place with SMART basketball fans, and sometimes the smart has to overrule the basketball for some individuals.

[devil84]

Can't find the link at the moment, but Laura Keeley mentioned in one of her Duke Now blog posts that part of the issue was that the NIT required Duke to set aside an allotment of tickets, including some in the student section, for the other 3 teams in the regional. Obviously that wasn't the whole issue, but I'm sure it contributed a bit. In my time at Duke this type of attendance was very common for early season, not so great games... and I'm sure it was exacerbated by the fact that it is nearing mid-term time for many students. I know around this time I often had to go to only the first half of games because I wanted to be there, but had an Orgo test the next day...

I noticed that the corners of the bleachers seemed to be reserved for certain fans. There were signs taped on the bleachers behind the Asheville bench (I sit too far away to read what was on the signs). The section was completely vacant at tip off, but people in green gear moved into the section as the game progressed, filling it to about maybe 50% by the end of the game. Across from the Duke bench, the last two sections of the student bleachers were barren at the beginning of the game and slowly added people in ECU purple at about the same rate as the Norfolk St fans. The the corner across from the visitor bench by the pep band were Asheville fans, but because their colors are the same as Duke's, it's difficult to tell except for the fact that a number of them were cheering when the rest of Cameron wasn't. It, too, was not nearly full.

If the NIT requires Duke to set aside tickets, those are the likely places to put them, as it seemed like all the season ticket holders were in their locations. That means that those sections reserved for the visitors were the emptiest seats. I'm still not understanding where the Asheville and ECU fans were. ECU fans seem incredibly prolific in the Triangle. Why didn't their fans pack their sections? That's not any fault of the Duke students, alumni, fans, or even the athletic department.

[AZLA]

I noticed that the corners of the bleachers seemed to be reserved for certain fans. There were signs taped on the bleachers behind the Asheville bench (I sit too far away to read what was on the signs). The section was completely vacant at tip off, but people in green gear moved into the section as the game progressed, filling it to about maybe 50% by the end of the game. Across from the Duke bench, the last two sections of the student bleachers were barren at the beginning of the game and slowly added people in ECU purple at about the same rate as the Norfolk St fans. The the corner across from the visitor bench by the pep band were Asheville fans, but because their colors are the same as Duke's, it's difficult to tell except for the fact that a number of them were cheering when the rest of Cameron wasn't. It, too, was not nearly full.

If the NIT requires Duke to set aside tickets, those are the likely places to put them, as it seemed like all the season ticket holders were in their locations. That means that those sections reserved for the visitors were the emptiest seats. I'm still not understanding where the Asheville and ECU fans were. ECU fans seem incredibly prolific in the Triangle. Why didn't their fans pack their sections? That's not any fault of the Duke students, alumni, fans, or even the athletic department.

ECU has always been more concerned with football. Plus being a top academic institution, ECU students stayed in Greenville studying diligently.

[bleudiable]

Interesting that a big story in the paper today is that UNC is looking at renovating or replacing the DESSAC. Bubba was quoted as saying they're looking at "revenue streams." Not how to improve the place for fans, but for money. That's the only thing that's important to too many today.

The Dean was built just before the big Hive in Charlotte and they were both obsolete within a few years as big money fans eschewed the Nicholson seats for the luxury boxes. Also the Dean is in the worst possible location for access to anything on the UNC campus.

But as has been discussed elsewhere on these boards, by having so many seats, UNC cheapens the price for its product. Duke drives up demand by limiting seats and creates a higher revenue streams, so no Wake-sized venue for us no matter how nice it might be. The sports-talk guys in Raleigh were on the mark when they commented today that Kansas, Michigan, UCLA, and other historic programs see no need to "go pro." It will be interesting to see what the Holes ultimately do.

Meanwhile, the student seats for tonight's game seem to be filling up gradually as our boys find themselves in a fight.

[Mudge]

We attended the game last night, as we did the game Friday night; and we'll be at the game later today. I understand that others may feel differently, but from my perspective, no game that Duke plays is meaningless. Because I reside in Florida, I can't attend all of the home games, but I come to as many as I can. While we all savor the closely contested matches, I also enjoy the games in which I get to see and cheer for those players who normally don't get off the bench. And as I remarked to my son when we were leaving last night, it's sometimes a pleasant change to be able to relax during a game and take in some of the action away from the ball that would normally escape my attention. But most of all, even after decades of following Duke basketball and attending hundreds of games, it's still just plain fun.

You're just trying to drown your sorrows, by coming back to North Carolina for Duke football (and basketball) games, now that your (other) alma mater has been replaced as the football school in the SEC by Vanderbilt, much as Duke has replaced Miami as the football school in the ACC.... Bizarro World, I tell ya, Jerry!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I think there a couple of major points the affect the student attendance at football games. The first of these, which is unique to Duke among most of the top basketball schools, is the simple fact that there are only about 6000 undergrads to fill a student section that I'm guessing isn't all that much smaller than most school's student sections, and is almost certainly much larger as compared to the student population. While I don't see this as much of a reason to fill the student section (we used to routinely fill a larger section), it probably does indicate that Duke is actually doing a lot better than many other schools.

The second reason (and the one that is really the problem) is that the student body just isn't as interested in basketball as it used to be. The demographic of Duke students is wildly different than it was 10-15 years ago. Yes, the reason that I, and a lot of my close friends, chose to go to Duke was due in large part to the basketball team, but that mentality is becoming more and more rare among the student body. Its unfortunate I think for both athletics and the social aspect of Duke, but it is a reality of the types of students who come along with a top 10 academic school that accepts less than 10% of the students who apply.
With all due respect, Duke has been a top 10 school for a long, long time. Nothing new there. I just think students in general need to lighten up a bit. Not saying coursework and exams aren't important, but I am blown away that undergrads are so hyper competitive today.

[Henderson]

Coach K in his post-game presser, commenting on the Preseason NIT ticket allocation policy: "It stinks."

[uh_no]

With all due respect, Duke has been a top 10 school for a long, long time. Nothing new there. I just think students in general need to lighten up a bit. Not saying coursework and exams aren't important, but I am blown away that undergrads are so hyper competitive today.

Welcome to "getting a job in today's environment"

[devildeac]

Coach K in his post-game presser, commenting on the Preseason NIT ticket allocation policy: "It stinks."

Another word he used to describe the policy was "disaster." I'm not kidding. Thanks for posting this Henderson.

[El_Diablo]

So I take it there were lots of Duke students standing in line who were simply turned away???

[Dukeface88]

That's definitely true (I gave tours and it was something they liked us to emphasize, haha). I think the main issue is, as others have mentioned, advertising to students that you can show up at game time and get into 95% of the games. During my last two years ('11 and '12) there was a concerted effort by the the athletic department and line monitors to do this, but for whatever reason it never really got through. When its midterm time, taking 3 hours out of your night (really more when you consider how drained you are after a game) isn't something that everyone can do, even the most diehard fans. Some of my friends who slept out in the snow on the sidewalk for Maryland games just couldn't give up that study time during midterm time for a low-caliber opponent. That's just what we have to deal with as a top-tier academic institution--we're a place with SMART basketball fans, and sometimes the smart has to overrule the basketball for some individuals.

Yeah, I can confirm this being an issue when I was there (2006-2010). Actually, I brought it up in one of my first posts on this site (in a thread that was also about attendance at a preseason NIT):


To explain: to get into the season opener against UNCG, you needed to show up more than an hour and a half beforehand. I know this because I showed up that early and was turned away (along with several hundred other students). Now, as a senior, I knew that this was kind of a fluke caused by being the season opener and by being Greek night. Getting in line that early against a UNCG-type team would normally mean a decent seat; I also knew that if I came back at halftime I'd probably get in.

The freshmen don't know any of that. I am absolutely certain that there are freshmen (and maybe older students as well) that have a couple hours to go to a game, but don't have another couple of hours to wait in line beforehand, and don't realize that they generally don't need to. I know this, because it is what I thought my freshman year. I got turned away from the first game I tried to go to, and decided I didn't have that kind of time. So I didn't go. Even after my friends and I managed to get into the Clemson buzzer beater about 15 minutes before the game started (a game to which I will direct anyone with doubts about Scheyer's ability to make clutch assists), I thought that we had just gotten lucky. It wasn't until the next year I realized that situation wasn't unusual and started going to games regularly.

And for anyone complaining about how focused on academics students are: I suggest trying to find an entry-level job that pays enough to keep up with student loans. The market is ridiculous right now. I say this as a recent law-school grad who is looking for just about anything that will let me make rent.

[DU82]

Coach K in his post-game presser, commenting on the Preseason NIT ticket allocation policy: "It stinks."

More information...

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/11/19/3388352/duke-coach-mike-krzyzewski-blasts.html

[jjasper0729]

With all due respect, Duke has been a top 10 school for a long, long time. Nothing new there. I just think students in general need to lighten up a bit. Not saying coursework and exams aren't important, but I am blown away that undergrads are so hyper competitive today.

Not to get too off topic, but it's not just undergrads. I have a 13 year old son and when he was in elementary school, the teachers would discuss his academic "career". My take was that he's a boy, let him PLAY! It's hyper-competitive starting at very young ages. I love my son and I'm proud that he's smart and he wants to learn, but I'm also happy that he still enjoys being a boy. It will benefit him in the long run. All this competitiveness makes people too high strung.

Now, back to the topic at hand

[gus]

With all due respect, Duke has been a top 10 school for a long, long time. Nothing new there. I just think students in general need to lighten up a bit. Not saying coursework and exams aren't important, but I am blown away that undergrads are so hyper competitive today.

This article is salient:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/how-bad-is-the-job-market-for-college-grads-your-definitive-guide/274580/

% of '94 grads who were unemployed a year after graduation: 4.4%.
% of '11 grads who were unemployed a year after graudation: 11.3%

A higher percentage are also going on to grad school as well.

On top of that:
'94 cost for a 4 year degree at Duke: ~$120k (in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation)
'13 cost for a 4 year degree at Duke: ~$230k

I'd cut the students a little slack for taking their studies seriously.

[Zeke]

After seeing Coach K and President What's -his-Name both refer to being in the entertainment business, I have come to the conclusion that student attendance is just a backdrop to the spectacle of a BB game at Cameron. What would a TV production there be without the students - just another one of the 8 or so games shown every night. Where would Dick V. be without his interaction with the students? The athletic dept gets it's money not from attendance but from TV revenue and the students are only "color". The students will attend or not depending on their particular needs at the time, I don't feel too sorry for the athletic dept. seeing as there is other motives than simply student support.

[jimsumner]

The NIT games were part of the Duke season-ticket package. So, upstairs was accounted for. So, the only way to allocate tickets for fans of three fairly nearby schools was to find them downstairs.

I don't believe you can change the season-ticket part of the equation. So, I'm not really sure how to make this work.

[mike88]

After seeing Coach K and President What's -his-Name both refer to being in the entertainment business, I have come to the conclusion that student attendance is just a backdrop to the spectacle of a BB game at Cameron. What would a TV production there be without the students - just another one of the 8 or so games shown every night. Where would Dick V. be without his interaction with the students? The athletic dept gets it's money not from attendance but from TV revenue and the students are only "color". The students will attend or not depending on their particular needs at the time, I don't feel too sorry for the athletic dept. seeing as there is other motives than simply student support.

Unfortunately, this is getting closer and closer to being the case- it's manifest by strange/suboptimal start times (dictated by ESPN) and driven by the huge $$$ at stake.

[Henderson]

After seeing Coach K and President What's -his-Name both refer to being in the entertainment business, I have come to the conclusion that student attendance is just a backdrop to the spectacle of a BB game at Cameron. What would a TV production there be without the students - just another one of the 8 or so games shown every night. Where would Dick V. be without his interaction with the students? The athletic dept gets it's money not from attendance but from TV revenue and the students are only "color". The students will attend or not depending on their particular needs at the time, I don't feel too sorry for the athletic dept. seeing as there is other motives than simply student support.

That seems unduly cynical to me. I think Coach K would disagree and point out that the student attendance is a big motivator for the team, giving Duke a greater-than-usual home-court advantage. TV or not.

But I do agree that there are ancillary benefits in terms of TV exposure. I just don't think those ancillary benefits are driving the hope that students who can walk to the games and get in for free will attend. It's about winning basketball games, and students could continue to assist in that regard. Players want to see it. Coaches want to see it. And get this: Recruits want to see it.

[sagegrouse]

Unfortunately, this is getting closer and closer to being the case- it's manifest by strange/suboptimal start times (dictated by ESPN) and driven by the huge $$$ at stake.

As a TV viewer in the Eastern Time zone for another month, me likes me some 6PM starts. -- sage

[Duvall]

The NIT games were part of the Duke season-ticket package. So, upstairs was accounted for. So, the only way to allocate tickets for fans of three fairly nearby schools was to find them downstairs.

I don't believe you can change the season-ticket part of the equation. So, I'm not really sure how to make this work.

Given the proliferation of early season tournaments, there seems to be an easy solution going forward.

[chaosmage]

As a TV viewer in the Eastern Time zone for another month, me likes me some 6PM starts. -- sage

And those of us who are school teachers on the West Coast... grr.. thanks to whomever for the awesome twitter feed from DBP and Duke Basketball last night. Kept me going.

[Channing]

With all due respect, Duke has been a top 10 school for a long, long time. Nothing new there. I just think students in general need to lighten up a bit. Not saying coursework and exams aren't important, but I am blown away that undergrads are so hyper competitive today.

Thank you. Given the refrain over the last 2 or 3 years one would think Duke's prominence in Academics is new. I don't know what the school was like in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, but late 90s and early 00s, when I was there, had the school with a top 5 ranking (I think) and a minuscule acceptance ratio. We all had heavy course loads and other commitments and, guess what, we didn't even have WiFi, smart phones, or tablets. Later in my Duke career I think they wired the lamp posts in KVille with ethernet jacks, though, if you wanted to use a laptop in KVille. And, I only go back a decade or so, people going back further had even less technology.

Its reasonable to say that today's Duke students just aren't as interested in basketball as past students, but to act like today's students are somehow more burdened or have greater time commitments is pretty misguided.

[Rich]

Its reasonable to say that today's Duke students just aren't as interested in basketball as past students, but to act like today's students are somehow more burdened or have greater time commitments is pretty misguided.

I think that has to do with the make up of the student body more than anything else. The prospective students I interview as part of the Duke Alumni interview program are all ridiculously bright, articulate, ambitious, etc., but the ones that seem to get accepted (in my experience) are less, shall we say, well rounded and more focused on academics. Duke used to be known as a "study hard, play hard" school when I was there in the mid-80's, but I'm not so sure the second part of that is so accurate nowadays.

[msdukie]

Other than the Commonwealth of Kentucky, do you think most folks in SEC country have even started to think about basketball in a meaningful way?

Other than the Commonwealth of Kentucky, do you think anyone in SEC country has ever thought about basketball in a meaningful way?

I live in Florida, where shockingly most of their alums or "fans" don't know who Billy Donovan is, I can vouch for this.

[jimsumner]

Other than the Commonwealth of Kentucky, do you think anyone in SEC country has ever thought about basketball in a meaningful way?

I live in Florida, where shockingly most of their alums or "fans" don't know who Billy Donovan is, I can vouch for this.

The folks at Vanderbilt like their hoops.

[OldPhiKap]

Other than the Commonwealth of Kentucky, do you think anyone in SEC country has ever thought about basketball in a meaningful way?

I live in Florida, where shockingly most of their alums or "fans" don't know who Billy Donovan is, I can vouch for this.

Vandy
Arkansas
LSU
Florida, back to back champs ( my experience differs from yours)
Kentucky

While SEC is clearly a football-first conference, they have had good hoops programs.

But the point is still the same -- given that the entire country has two more weeks of extremely important football games, plus conference tournament games -- who really cares about basketball games right now? A late season football result has much more meaning than a pre-Thanksgiving basketball game. Even at Duke, our next two football games mean the difference between winning our division or not, and whether we are playing a big bowl or a minor one. Our next two basketball games mean little in the grand scheme of things.

To everything there is a season. This is historical football season, and crunch time at that. If basketball wants to encroach on that, fine -- but does so at its own peril.

And I do not think anyone can accuse me of being less than silly-passionate about our basketball team. But nothing is more important in my Duke world for the short term than beating Wake and then the lying, cheating, thieving, scheming, weasel-bastages from the Dump on the Hump. I will of course watch any hoops game in that period and pull as hard as hell for us -- as I have for every game we have played so far -- but in November it is secondary.

So be it if you disagree, reasonable minds can differ.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Vandy
Arkansas
LSU
Florida, back to back champs ( my experience differs from yours)
Kentucky

While SEC is clearly a football-first conference, they have had good hoops programs.

But the point is still the same -- given that the entire country has two more weeks of extremely important football games, plus conference tournament games -- who really cares about basketball games right now? A late season football result has much more meaning than a pre-Thanksgiving basketball game. Even at Duke, our next two football games mean the difference between winning our division or not, and whether we are playing a big bowl or a minor one. Our next two basketball games mean little in the grand scheme of things.

To everything there is a season. This is historical football season, and crunch time at that. If basketball wants to encroach on that, fine -- but does so at its own peril.

And I do not think anyone can accuse me of being less than silly-passionate about our basketball team. But nothing is more important in my Duke world for the short term than beating Wake and then the lying, cheating, thieving, scheming, weasel-bastages from the Dump on the Hump. I will of course watch any hoops game in that period and pull as hard as hell for us -- as I have for every game we have played so far -- but in November it is secondary.

So be it if you disagree, reasonable minds can differ.
I concur on the priorities in November and so does Bob Harris.

[OldPhiKap]

I concur on the priorities in November and so does Bob Harris.

If I am with you and Bob, I am in better company than I deserve.

Put another way, we beat Louisville last November then lost to them in March. Which one will you remember a year from now?

Beat Wake, Beat the Holes, Beat the Noles! In the interim, I hope the hoops team continues to grow into a great team and I will enjoy that maturation process as we move into conference play in January.

Women looking good too, great recruiting by Coach P. Great time to be a Devil.

[freshmanjs]

Put another way, we beat Louisville last November then lost to them in March. Which one will you remember a year from now?



both

[OldPhiKap]

both

And I hope you remember the fun of our bowl victory, too. I will buy the first beer and look forward to meeting you there!

[-jk]

...

Put another way, we beat Louisville last November then lost to them in March. Which one will you remember a year from now?
...


Hate to say it: I'll remember a leg... Ick.

-jk

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

If I am with you and Bob, I am in better company than I deserve.

Put another way, we beat Louisville last November then lost to them in March. Which one will you remember a year from now?

Beat Wake, Beat the Holes, Beat the Noles! In the interim, I hope the hoops team continues to grow into a great team and I will enjoy that maturation process as we move into conference play in January.

Women looking good too, great recruiting by Coach P. Great time to be a Devil.
Last month it was the Championship of the Commonwealth of Virgina. This month it's the Championship of the State of North Carolina.

[TruBlu]

Women looking good too

Is that you, Brent Musburger?;)

[OldPhiKap]

Is that you, Brent Musburger?;)

If I ever refer to our basketball venue as "The Cameron," go ahead and pull the plug.

I have disliked the cheeseburger for 30 years -- makes Jim McMay sound reasonable.

[MarkD83]

Thank you. Given the refrain over the last 2 or 3 years one would think Duke's prominence in Academics is new. I don't know what the school was like in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, but late 90s and early 00s, when I was there, had the school with a top 5 ranking (I think) and a minuscule acceptance ratio. We all had heavy course loads and other commitments and, guess what, we didn't even have WiFi, smart phones, or tablets. Later in my Duke career I think they wired the lamp posts in KVille with ethernet jacks, though, if you wanted to use a laptop in KVille. And, I only go back a decade or so, people going back further had even less technology.

Its reasonable to say that today's Duke students just aren't as interested in basketball as past students, but to act like today's students are somehow more burdened or have greater time commitments is pretty misguided.

Being highly connected may be part of the issue. In the 1980s and earlier, if you wanted to know the score of the game you had to attend the game. I remember having to do a computer science project one night when Duke was playing Clemson. It was very difficult to concentrate not knowing the score so I decided that I would go to the game and then pull an all-nighter. Vince Taylor had a career game and Duke won in 3-OT. I made a good choice.