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Eakane
11-14-2013, 03:33 PM
I may be in the minority here but I have to say starting Tyler at the 2 makes no sense whatsoever to me. We have three excellent options at the 2 in Rasheed, Jones and Andre. Tyler needs to be available to come off the bench and spell Cook from time to time. I'm sure K has a reason for this, and I'm sure that reason has nothing to do with showing a prospect how he could fit in next year.

So what gives?

BlueDevilBrowns
11-14-2013, 03:44 PM
I may be in the minority here but I have to say starting Tyler at the 2 makes no sense whatsoever to me. We have three excellent options at the 2 in Rasheed, Jones and Andre. Tyler needs to be available to come off the bench and spell Cook from time to time. I'm sure K has a reason for this, and I'm sure that reason has nothing to do with showing a prospect how he could fit in next year.

So what gives?

Tyler has long been a favorite of Coach K's. K has said in the past that he thinks of Tyler as a "son" or something to that effect. Meaning, he sees alot of himself in TT - tough, hard-nosed, scrappy, and a defensive leader. The ability of TT to guard multiple positions from PG to SF is another trait highly valued by K. His spot-up shooting ability is underrated, IMO, as well. But, with this team, offense isn't an issue so Thornton is in primarily for his defensive prowess.

However, under the new officiating rules, I do see Tyler's value as limited. "Edgy" defense is now outlawed, so no more pulls, pushes, grabs, etc. That is what Tyler does best. So I'm guessing, as the season wears on, Tyler will have a reduced role if the game is going to be called like it is at the moment. Sheed or Jones(?) will see more minutes due to their ability to slash to the basket and score.

bob blue devil
11-14-2013, 03:47 PM
I may be in the minority here but I have to say starting Tyler at the 2 makes no sense whatsoever to me. We have three excellent options at the 2 in Rasheed, Jones and Andre. Tyler needs to be available to come off the bench and spell Cook from time to time. I'm sure K has a reason for this, and I'm sure that reason has nothing to do with showing a prospect how he could fit in next year.

So what gives?

Obviously, I don't know the answer. Here are some thoughts, however:
-maybe the team needs defensive glue and leadership on the floor
-maybe K wants someone to have to 'earn' the spot, rather than be given it
-maybe TT playing on the ball is not the best solution when Cook is out, so this is the best way to have TT in the game

Troublemaker
11-14-2013, 03:57 PM
I may be in the minority

You are actually in the vast majority. Sheed will very likely be a starter again soon. And even if he isn't, he would still play more minutes than Tyler, and it would just mean that Coach K likes having Sheed come off the bench. (Think Ginobili in San Antonio, although again, I don't expect Coach K to play it that way because he doesn't have a history of doing so.) As for why Sheed hasn't been the starter since the beginning of the season, it's because he was struggling a little bit in practice; Coach K said he "has not had a good fall" (I'm trying to quote that exactly since there were some complaints on these boards about someone else not doing so). Then he fell ill for a short time. But apparently he is well now and has started to practice very well again, and so, it is very likely that this trend should result in him reclaiming his starting position from last season. He is also, I think, a perfect guard for the new rules/emphases.

As for Tyler, I prefer he play 20 min/gm or so instead of the 5-10 min/gm of strictly being Quinn's backup, as you suggest. He's a leader and an organizer, he hits open threes, and he plays very good help/off-ball defense. If we look at his plus/minus later on in the season, he will probably be one of the team's leaders again. As he was last season.

flyingdutchdevil
11-14-2013, 04:04 PM
You are actually in the vast majority. Sheed will very likely be a starter again soon. And even if he isn't, he would still play more minutes than Tyler, and it would just mean that Coach K likes having Sheed come off the bench. (Think Ginobili in San Antonio, although again, I don't expect Coach K to play it that way because he doesn't have a history of doing so.) As for why Sheed hasn't been the starter since the beginning of the season, it's because he was struggling a little bit in practice; Coach K said he "has not had a good fall" (I'm trying to quote that exactly since there were some complaints on these boards about someone else not doing so). Then he fell ill for a short time. But apparently he is well now and has started to practice very well again, and so, it is very likely that this trend should result in him reclaiming his starting position from last season. He is also, I think, a perfect guard for the new rules/emphases.

As for Tyler, I prefer he play 20 min/gm or so instead of the 5-10 min/gm of strictly being Quinn's backup, as you suggest. He's a leader and an organizer, he hits open threes, and he plays very good help/off-ball defense. If we look at his plus/minus later on in the season, he will probably be one of the team's leaders again. As he was last season.

I agree with nearly everything you said. However, is Tyler plays 20 min, who is at the expense of? Quinn? Rasheed? Rasheed, with Hood and Jabari, form a devastating offensive trio. It is rare for any team to have 2 players who can take their man off the dribble, not to mention 3. Quinn is our only true PG. When he is on, our team looks unstoppable. When he is not at tip-top shape, like against Kansas, we aren't as strong.

Thus, I honestly view Thornton's minutes as a barometer for this team: the more he plays, the colder our play is (and not because Tyler is in but rather because Quinn and Rasheed aren't playing to their potential) and the less he plays, the hotter our play is.

You know what you are getting out of Thornton: tough-as-nails, great leadership, good defense (better than most of our other guards), at least 1 spot up 3. But Quinn and Rasheed can offer so much more. 'can' is the operative word.

Duvall
11-14-2013, 04:12 PM
I agree with nearly everything you said. However, is Tyler plays 20 min, who is at the expense of? Quinn? Rasheed?

Wait - the complaint is now that Duke is not giving its key players *enough* minutes? How many minutes do you anticipate Cook and Sulaimon playing, anyway?

Eakane
11-14-2013, 04:20 PM
I'm not saying TT sholdn't play; I'm sayng he shouldn't start (well, starting is meaningless to me, so let's say shouldn't be on the floor at the same time as Quinn is). If he and Quinn are both out of the game, then who runs the offense? Parker? Tyler is not as good a shooter as Rasheed or Andre, and not as good a defender as Rasheed and Jones.

Here's my position: we are a better team with TT backing up Quinn and one of Rasheed, Andre or Matt at the 2.

EA "need something to complain about to pass the time till the announcement tomorrow" Kane

dukebballcamper90-91
11-14-2013, 04:23 PM
Parker, Hood, and Sheed need to play the most mins. They are our best players,Period.

flyingdutchdevil
11-14-2013, 04:26 PM
Wait - the complaint is now that Duke is not giving its key players *enough* minutes? How many minutes do you anticipate Cook and Sulaimon playing, anyway?

It's not a complaint but rather my opinion / observation. I'm not complaining at all that Rasheed or Quinn aren't getting enough minutes (and don't think I mentioned that at all). But if Cook and Sulaimon aren't playing well, Tyler gets more minutes. And rightfully so - Tyler often rights the ship, but the ship doesn't go faster and become more efficient. With Cook and Sulaimon at 100%, the ship goes straight, goes fast, and is highly efficient. When they aren't, the ship turns, loses a lot of speed, and drops anchor.

To put it another way, Quinn and Sulaimon have higher potential averages, but also very high variances. Tyler has a lower potential average, but also a significantly lower variance. Do you want to roll the dice, or do you always want to see a 4?

Until Quinn becomes Mr. Consistency and Sulaimon continues this play for foreseeable future, we're gonna see a lot of Tyler.

Troublemaker
11-14-2013, 04:34 PM
I agree with nearly everything you said. However, is Tyler plays 20 min, who is at the expense of? Quinn? Rasheed? Rasheed, with Hood and Jabari, form a devastating offensive trio. It is rare for any team to have 2 players who can take their man off the dribble, not to mention 3. Quinn is our only true PG. When he is on, our team looks unstoppable. When he is not at tip-top shape, like against Kansas, we aren't as strong.

Thus, I honestly view Thornton's minutes as a barometer for this team: the more he plays, the colder our play is (and not because Tyler is in but rather because Quinn and Rasheed aren't playing to their potential) and the less he plays, the hotter our play is.


There are plenty enough minutes to go around to incorporate 20/gm from Thornton. We are basically rotating five players at the 1, 2, and 3 positions, which adds up to 120 minutes/gm. Consider that Rodney will probably play about 10/min game at the 4, if not more. So, I would like to see season averages of something like 30 min/gm for Cook and Sulaimon, 25 min/gm from Rodney at the 3, 20 min/gm from Thornton, 15 min/gm from Jones. Not those minutes exactly because as I type out this example right now, I see that would mean 35 min/gm total from Rodney (adding my estimate of his minutes at the 4), and I'd surely like to see his season average be below that. And if Matt Jones finds his shooting touch, I would actually prefer he get the 20 min/gm and Thornton 15 min/gm, flipping them. All sorts of little adjustments could be made for different scenarios. But the minutes are definitely there to be a significant sub, unless you plan on playing all the starters 40 min/gm.

Bob Green
11-14-2013, 04:34 PM
Rasheed Sulaimon needs to start because he is a strong perimeter defender. With Duke being a bit small in the interior, it is vital to apply intense pressure on the perimeter to force the opponent to start their offense further from the basket. IMHO, Sulaimon is a better defender than Thornton. Thornton possesses the leadership and toughness intangible, which is my best guess as to why he is starting, but I vote for Sulaimon to start. Of course, I don't get a vote. :D

Duvall
11-14-2013, 04:35 PM
Parker, Hood, and Sheed need to play the most mins. They are our best players,Period.

Well, along with Cook (who plays a different position) they already are. So that's settled, I guess.

OldPhiKap
11-14-2013, 05:38 PM
Tyler would not play that many mins on any other top tier team.

Then that would be that team's loss.

Tyler plays because he does what K demands -- play with intensity, play within the system, communicate. In other words, lead like K would if he was on the court. TT is likely to be our next former-player-turned-coach on the staff, I would bet.

Billy King was not the best offensive option we had back in his day, but he brought a toughness that K wanted on the floor. Tyler obviously brings something to the mix, such as experience and toughness. Given the inexperience of our front court, I am sure that is invaluable at the beginning of a game to get us off on the right foot.

For all the talk of minutes, though, this is the breakdown from Kansas:

Hood 38
Cook 36
Parker 33
Sheed 28
Amile 26
TT 20
Josh 9
Jones 4
Murphy 3
MP3 3

Some of his time is to run point and give Quinn a break, I assume everyone is okay with that. Part of that time is to give Sheed a rest, which again I am sure everyone is okay with. Sheed played more minutes than Tyler, even though he did not "start" -- I do not see what the angst is about.

billy
11-14-2013, 06:57 PM
I figure Tyler started the KU game as a stabilizing presence, being far more experienced in big-time situations and proving unflappable over his tenure. I expect as the season progresses that will likely change, but, given it was only the second official game of the season, and against such good competition, it made a lot of sense to me.

ncexnyc
11-14-2013, 07:26 PM
I may be in the minority here but I have to say starting Tyler at the 2 makes no sense whatsoever to me. We have three excellent options at the 2 in Rasheed, Jones and Andre. Tyler needs to be available to come off the bench and spell Cook from time to time. I'm sure K has a reason for this, and I'm sure that reason has nothing to do with showing a prospect how he could fit in next year.

So what gives?

WOW, that didn't take very long. One loss and people are questioning Coach K's decision to start Bruise Brother #1.

Here are some words of wisdom for you from Chris Brown and T-Pain.

" I gotta get outta here man, I just wanna leave with it
If you ain't got it by now then you're just ain't getting it"

Wander
11-14-2013, 07:35 PM
(Think Ginobili in San Antonio, although again, I don't expect Coach K to play it that way because he doesn't have a history of doing so.)

Actually, I think he does, at least a little bit. In 2008 Scheyer came off the bench but played more minutes than several of the starters. I think there are other examples. I wouldn't be shocked if this sort of thing happens this season.

Cameron
11-14-2013, 08:13 PM
Like others, I also think there is just too much talent at our disposal on the perimeter for Tyler to be getting the nod as a starter. And since Matt is still young and developing into his game and Andre isn't actually playing this year, that leaves Rasheed as the most talented two-guard we have.

Tyler is a good player and has risen to the occasion for this team in many big situations. He not only can but wants to take the shot with the game in the balance. His ability to perform in the clutch cannot be overstated. However, Rasheed is superior to him in almost every facet of the game. Tyler is a solid defender and can hit the open three when his feet are set and he has time to shoot. Rasheed is a great defender -- and unlike the more undersized Tyler, is not limited in the variety of player he can guard -- and can score in just about every way imaginable.

With that said, as pointed out above, it's not always as important who starts as who finishes the game. So as long as Rasheed is playing the majority of minutes, maybe it doesn't matter as much. Bringing a scorer like Rasheed off the bench is a great luxury to have. Though, I do wonder if playing Thornton as part of our first wave gives us somewhat of a disadvantageous start, especially against teams that feature high-caliber shooting guards in the vein of Rasheed.

kAzE
11-14-2013, 09:10 PM
Thornton's minutes were limited in the Kansas game due to foul trouble. If I recall correctly, he only left the floor in the second half, during the most critical points in the game, when he picked up his 4th and 5th fouls. Does that mean he would have had more minute than Sulaimon? We'll never know.

In my opinion, Thornton is fine, but he needs to cool it down on the fouls. Many of his fouls were the reach in/pushing type that can be avoided. Obviously, Sulaimon is an upgrade offensively, and he stepped up his game in the 2nd half. I wouldn't be surprised if he started the next game.

Kedsy
11-14-2013, 09:53 PM
Actually, I think he does, at least a little bit. In 2008 Scheyer came off the bench but played more minutes than several of the starters. I think there are other examples. I wouldn't be shocked if this sort of thing happens this season.

David Henderson comes to mind.

kAzE
11-14-2013, 09:56 PM
Actually, I think he does, at least a little bit. In 2008 Scheyer came off the bench but played more minutes than several of the starters. I think there are other examples. I wouldn't be shocked if this sort of thing happens this season.

Actually, I've changed my mind, you could be on to something here. Thornton, by all accounts, is the leader of the team, so there's definitely some value for him being a starter, even if he doesn't get starter's minutes. Good call.

Troublemaker
11-15-2013, 06:56 AM
Actually, I think he does, at least a little bit. In 2008 Scheyer came off the bench but played more minutes than several of the starters. I think there are other examples. I wouldn't be shocked if this sort of thing happens this season.


David Henderson comes to mind.

True, good examples. ('84 for David in case anyone was wondering the season)

Troublemaker
11-15-2013, 07:03 AM
I do wonder if playing Thornton as part of our first wave gives us somewhat of a disadvantageous start, especially against teams that feature high-caliber shooting guards in the vein of Rasheed.

That certainly wasn't true against Kansas. Duke jumped out to leads of 5-0, 8-2, and 10-5.

Incidentally, the first points of the game were the result of Tyler tapping out an offensive rebound to Jabari who then found Amile under the basket for a score.

It was 1 of only 5 offensive rebounds for Duke all day.

Troublemaker
11-15-2013, 07:13 AM
Wouldn't you know it? Tyler led Duke in plus/minus against Kansas (tied with Marshall): http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2013/11/12/duke-83-kansas-94/plus_minus

Guess who led Duke in plus/minus against Davidson? Oh, it was Tyler: http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2013/11/08/davidson-77-duke-111/plus_minus

Maybe we can dial down some of this Tyler criticism until he slides all the way down to #2 or something in Duke's plus/minus rankings.

Troublemaker
11-15-2013, 07:25 AM
As a reminder, Tyler ranked second in plus/minus for Duke last season: http://www.scacchoops.com/TempoBasedStats.asp?sTeam=DU&Season=2013

If you follow the link, apparently riverside6 has deleted last year's seniors from the database, so you will see a list of returning players with Tyler leading the pack. As someone who follows plus/minus, I can tell you that he ranked higher than Mason and Seth, while Ryan led the team in plus/minus. (Ryan, of course, was incredibly valuable to the team the past two seasons. Whenever he was out with injury, we struggled mightily without his spacing the floor and help defense abilities. Just wanted to compliment Ryan one more time. )