Andre Dawkins

[scottdude8]

He's played a total of two minutes so far this season. Is he injured? In the dog house? Is K saving him for later in the season for some reason?

I only ask because I anticipated him being a major factor off the bench for us this year, and I still think we need him to achieve our full potential this season... so his absence has been quite conspicuous and anxiety-promoting for me, and I'm sure for some of the board as well.

[jipops]

He's played a total of two minutes so far this season. Is he injured? In the dog house? Is K saving him for later in the season for some reason?

I only ask because I anticipated him being a major factor off the bench for us this year, and I still think we need him to achieve our full potential this season... so his absence has been quite conspicuous and anxiety-promoting for me, and I'm sure for some of the board as well.

I suspect, or speculate, that whenever Duke is able to nail down and correct some or much of it's defensive shortcomings, then and maybe only then will Andre start to see more time. I just don't think Andre is in a position where he can help us much defensively right now, and after the first two games that seems to be our most glaring general weakness.

[sagegrouse]

He's played a total of two minutes so far this season. Is he injured? In the dog house? Is K saving him for later in the season for some reason?

I only ask because I anticipated him being a major factor off the bench for us this year, and I still think we need him to achieve our full potential this season... so his absence has been quite conspicuous and anxiety-promoting for me, and I'm sure for some of the board as well.

Having Dre sit out for a year and return to the Blue Deviles was a grand experiment. So far, the early returns are not promising. --sage

[Troublemaker]

These current rules are not for him. He has strengths, but I wouldn't say driving the ball and defending the drive are two of them, and unfortunately those talents are at premium right now.

With that said, he'd still be playable if he didn't have five players ahead of him in the rotation. We are rotating five players among the 1, 2, and 3 positions. It's tough to rotate a sixth person into that. Most teams don't do it.

[Dev11]

We are rotating five players among the 1, 2, and 3 positions. It's tough to rotate a sixth person into that. Most teams don't do it.

...and furthermore, ideally, Andre really only plays the 2. He can be the 3 when he's not expected to rebound at all, but on this team, we need the size on the court, as we probably only have one really good rebounder in Jabari.

[scottdude8]

All valid points. I guess I caught a bit too caught up in the "Andre's worked on his defense so much" talk over the offseason that I hoped he had made some big strides in that regard. I also just pull for the kid in general, so I feel bad watching him come back to the team only to sit.

[Wander]

Everything people have said here makes sense - but the Davidson game is what makes it weird. Two minutes in that sort of early season blowout is what you expect from a walk-on. I'm not complaining about it, it's just odd.

[gus]

Everything people have said here makes sense - but the Davidson game is what makes it weird. Two minutes in that sort of early season blowout is what you expect from a walk-on. I'm not complaining about it, it's just odd.

When has Coach K ever emptied the bench, even in blowouts?

Andre will probably take time to get minutes (ample reasons already cited). What I like though, is that whenever he's shown on the sideline he's smiling, talking to his teammates, congratulating the other players. He looks like he's enjoying himself.

[flyingdutchdevil]

When has Coach K ever emptied the bench, even in blowouts?

Andre will probably take time to get minutes (ample reasons already cited). What I like though, is that whenever he's shown on the sideline he's smiling, talking to his teammates, congratulating the other players. He looks like he's enjoying himself.

Ummmm... most blowouts? Whenever Todd Z gets minutes, that's emptying your bench.

I don't think Andre will see many minutes at all. I am supportive of him, but I am also being realistic. And, given the situation he's in, I'm sure he doesn't mind that at all.

[gus]

Ummmm... most blowouts? Whenever Todd Z gets minutes, that's emptying your bench.

I don't think Andre will see many minutes at all. I am supportive of him, but I am also being realistic. And, given the situation he's in, I'm sure he doesn't mind that at all.

I should have phrased it differently. A down the bench player only getting 2 minutes in a blowout is not unusual at all for Coach K. That it's not much more than a walk-on isn't surprising.

[Matches]

No disrespect meant to anyone here, but I think some folks badly underestimated how difficult it is to take a year off from competitive basketball and then return playing at a high level.

Andre didn't pick up a basketball - at all - for like six months by his account. He wasn't rehabbing an injury, or practicing with the team, or even hanging around watching practice. He was totally removed from the sport.

To expect him to jump back in and not only pick up where he left off, but improve, is almost certainly unrealistic.

It's possible that as he logs more practice time and gets more reps, we'll see him crack the rotation, but it's not at all surprising that he's behind the other guys at this point in the season.

[FerryFor50]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/andre-dawkins/?eref=sihp

[Kedsy]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/andre-dawkins/?eref=sihp

What a great article. I can't even describe how much I hope Andre ends up playing a major role this season.

[FerryFor50]

What a great article. I can't even describe how much I hope Andre ends up playing a major role this season.

Absolutely. Such perseverance by Dre...

[dukenilnil]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/andre-dawkins/?eref=sihp

Obviously, everyone is speculating, but in the article, K said Andre had to be a better teammate. Combine that with K's penchant for making players earn playing time and one can surmise that he wants Andre to show he can be a good teammate and he can be trusted (and is ready) before putting him into game situations. The article also talks about how Andre didn't want to be on the court or at games for much of his prior stint. Perhaps he is still battling that. Maybe in an ideal world, he would have taken 2 years off, but that is not possible in a college environment so, although he is better, he may not be 100% ready to contribute but hopes to later in the year.

Regardless of the reasons, I want to see Dawkins on the court personally as I find him incredibly fun to watch and easy to root for (from the first time he stepped on a court), but, my hope is that Dawkins gets out of the season what he wants and needs, not what we as fans want.

[dukenilnil]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/andre-dawkins/?eref=sihp

Seems like 2 different discussion points (playing time, fit with the time vs. his personal growth and well-being). I was going to comment in the separate thread about the article but will do so here now, I guess.


I thought Coach K seemed a bit obtuse in the article. He is often praised for having a fine pulse of his team and tight relationships with his players but he seemed to really miss the boat here. He may not have thought that Dawkins was depressed, but I recall a decent bit of discussion on the boards that Dawkins was perhaps still struggling with the loss of his sister. If observers were picking up on that, it seemed odd that the coaching staff missed it. Granted, he had him talk to his daughter, but it seemed more general and no real follow up happened. I also thought it odd that if a player is having trouble sharing emotions with teammates/coaches, not sure the coaches daughter (counselor or not) would make them feel more comfortable opening up. She is still very intimately connected to the team. The article also makes it seem like K's approach was all, at best, tough love. Calling someone out in front of their teammates when they are struggling emotionally will likely only result in them feeling smaller. And the way he told Andre to step away from the team seemed much more like cutting him rather than a fatherly/mentoring, "maybe its best to step away from the pressures of basketball for a while, we'll still be here to support you but we are redshirting you this year." It read much more "persona non grata" ,(you can't even keep your roommate, we don't want you around) than '"we are looking out for your best interest." If the team thought stepping away from basketball was his best bet, I can't imagine they would suggest he look to transfer somewhere else to play.

Overall, I think this is just another example of how this country and schools (he is a student after all) need to do a better job of recognizing and helping those with emotional struggles.

[Dev11]

I should have phrased it differently. A down the bench player only getting 2 minutes in a blowout is not unusual at all for Coach K. That it's not much more than a walk-on isn't surprising.

Perhaps at the beginning of the season, playing the intended lineups more often is important to build cohesion. We may see walk-ons more often later in the year when we are trying to keep legs fresh week to week.

[JamminJoe]

I didn't get this impression at all from the article. The impression I got was that K had to take some drastic action (cutting Dawkins from the team basically), so that Dawkins could face up and address his problems. Up to that point, Dawkins was not expressing his problems (to K in their meetings or to the counseler), and personal problems cannot be fixed if a person is in denial. The article was very revealing, and really explains the current situation where Dawkins really has to earn back any playing time. There is no shame in this, and the fact that Dawkins' outward expressions on the bench are a complete 180 degrees from before, shows to me that even though his life is fully immersed in Duke basketball again, he understands that there is more to life than basketball.


Seems like 2 different discussion points (playing time, fit with the time vs. his personal growth and well-being). I was going to comment in the separate thread about the article but will do so here now, I guess.


I thought Coach K seemed a bit obtuse in the article. He is often praised for having a fine pulse of his team and tight relationships with his players but he seemed to really miss the boat here. He may not have thought that Dawkins was depressed, but I recall a decent bit of discussion on the boards that Dawkins was perhaps still struggling with the loss of his sister. If observers were picking up on that, it seemed odd that the coaching staff missed it. Granted, he had him talk to his daughter, but it seemed more general and no real follow up happened. I also thought it odd that if a player is having trouble sharing emotions with teammates/coaches, not sure the coaches daughter (counselor or not) would make them feel more comfortable opening up. She is still very intimately connected to the team. The article also makes it seem like K's approach was all, at best, tough love. Calling someone out in front of their teammates when they are struggling emotionally will likely only result in them feeling smaller. And the way he told Andre to step away from the team seemed much more like cutting him rather than a fatherly/mentoring, "maybe its best to step away from the pressures of basketball for a while, we'll still be here to support you but we are redshirting you this year." It read much more "persona non grata" ,(you can't even keep your roommate, we don't want you around) than '"we are looking out for your best interest." If the team thought stepping away from basketball was his best bet, I can't imagine they would suggest he look to transfer somewhere else to play.

Overall, I think this is just another example of how this country and schools (he is a student after all) need to do a better job of recognizing and helping those with emotional struggles.

[Kfanarmy]

I didn't get this impression at all from the article. The impression I got was that K had to take some drastic action (cutting Dawkins from the team basically), so that Dawkins could face up and address his problems. Up to that point, Dawkins was not expressing his problems (to K in their meetings or to the counseler), and personal problems cannot be fixed if a person is in denial. The article was very revealing, and really explains the current situation where Dawkins really has to earn back any playing time. There is no shame in this, and the fact that Dawkins' outward expressions on the bench are a complete 180 degrees from before, shows to me that even though his life is fully immersed in Duke basketball again, he understands that there is more to life than basketball. Love the article. It reveals 1)what everyone knew and 2) what so many refused to believe. 1) Andre Dawkins was having some emotional issues, but 2) his attitude and performance on the court were such that You couldn't trust him in a game. My perception, right or wrong, at the time was that he was purposelly not playing D, and when KI was in the game he would not position himself to be a factor. Had he been depressed but competing on the court, he would not have sat the year.

[mapei]

Seems like 2 different discussion points (playing time, fit with the time vs. his personal growth and well-being). I was going to comment in the separate thread about the article but will do so here now, I guess.


I thought Coach K seemed a bit obtuse in the article. He is often praised for having a fine pulse of his team and tight relationships with his players but he seemed to really miss the boat here. He may not have thought that Dawkins was depressed, but I recall a decent bit of discussion on the boards that Dawkins was perhaps still struggling with the loss of his sister. If observers were picking up on that, it seemed odd that the coaching staff missed it. Granted, he had him talk to his daughter, but it seemed more general and no real follow up happened. I also thought it odd that if a player is having trouble sharing emotions with teammates/coaches, not sure the coaches daughter (counselor or not) would make them feel more comfortable opening up. She is still very intimately connected to the team. The article also makes it seem like K's approach was all, at best, tough love. Calling someone out in front of their teammates when they are struggling emotionally will likely only result in them feeling smaller. And the way he told Andre to step away from the team seemed much more like cutting him rather than a fatherly/mentoring, "maybe its best to step away from the pressures of basketball for a while, we'll still be here to support you but we are redshirting you this year." It read much more "persona non grata" ,(you can't even keep your roommate, we don't want you around) than '"we are looking out for your best interest." If the team thought stepping away from basketball was his best bet, I can't imagine they would suggest he look to transfer somewhere else to play.

Overall, I think this is just another example of how this country and schools (he is a student after all) need to do a better job of recognizing and helping those with emotional struggles.

I had the same impression. Sitting out for a year was the right thing to do, but I'm not sure that being so tough on him was/is.

[Li_Duke]

Having gone through my own bout with depression while at Duke, I wanted to say the following:
- Depression is crippling, not so much in regards to performance (though it can affect that), but in living. I look back on my years of depression, and although I experienced a lot of great things during that time and accomplished a lot, I also missed out in that I was there in person, but I was not living in the moment -- I was just going through the motions.
- In that sense, I think we need to redefine the question of what "Andre having a good basketball season means". He could be the star and still have a bad basketball season if he's not always there in the moment to enjoy it. On the other hand, he could have a great basketball season being no better than a walk-on if he living in the moment. I would hate for him to reflect back years later and think that he fulfilled his lifelong dream of being a Duke basketball player, but then he'd didn't really, because he wasn't present in the moment.
- You can beat depression, but it's always going to be there lurking around the corner. The longer you are not depressed, the less your risk of becoming depressed again, but the risk is never zero. For me, I fell in and out of it for a decade, and finally came out of it 8 years ago and have been happy ever since. My hope for Andre is that he looks back many years from now and sees this year as a turning point.
- Lastly, I'm impressed by how good a basketball player Andre is. You know how you can zone out on the road and just drive while your mind is elsewhere? Andre has been doing that more or less since his freshman year, yet he's been a rotation player. I can't help but be a little sad when thinking just how good he could have been if his mind had been in the right place all along. How much could he have improved? In a way, that may be Andre's biggest challenge after getting over his sister's death -- getting over what could have been and looking forward to what can still be.

[dukebballcamper90-91]

Andre should be getting some time. We could've used a few 3's from him last night. Let Andre play.

[rocketeli]

I think some people may be over thinking this. Andre went, I think 1-17, from 3 point range in the exhibitions/blue-white games. So he's a bit rusty, which would be expected. Because he was expected to finish up last year, he has also been inadvertently "recruited over." When he left, he had nothing to do with the team, and there was a deafening silence from the coaching staff about wanting him back, followed by Andre publicly declaring he was a "different player now" as a good thing-so there is perhaps a need for him to earn the trust of the coaching staff and team. Finally, two new points--we really don't know exactly why he left the team-and it's his business not ours--we are all assuming what it was about. And a Division one sports program is not a therapy session (for better or worse). Players are not going to play because they need to improve their self-esteem, or had a struggle with depression, etc., they are going to play because their play will win games. Andre does seem to be happy and energized on the bench, and I'm sure all this is known to him--I certainly wish him the best and hope his play improves so he can get minutes-if he earns them.

[Double DD]

I think some people may be over thinking this. Andre went, I think 1-17, from 3 point range in the exhibitions/blue-white games. So he's a bit rusty, which would be expected. Because he was expected to finish up last year, he has also been inadvertently "recruited over." When he left, he had nothing to do with the team, and there was a deafening silence from the coaching staff about wanting him back, followed by Andre publicly declaring he was a "different player now" as a good thing-so there is perhaps a need for him to earn the trust of the coaching staff and team. Finally, two new points--we really don't know exactly why he left the team-and it's his business not ours--we are all assuming what it was about. And a Division one sports program is not a therapy session (for better or worse). Players are not going to play because they need to improve their self-esteem, or had a struggle with depression, etc., they are going to play because their play will win games. Andre does seem to be happy and energized on the bench, and I'm sure all this is known to him--I certainly wish him the best and hope his play improves so he can get minutes-if he earns them.

Did you read the article linked earlier? It explains the situation.

[g-money]

What a great article. I can't even describe how much I hope Andre ends up playing a major role this season.

Absolutely. Andre's body language on the bench has been excellent so far this year; hopefully this has earned him some brownie points with Coach K.

Here's my plea: C'mon Coach, just give him a chance - he's a senior, and he's doing everything you've asked of him!!

(Thus begins an onslaught of DBR posts stating some variant of, "the kid is not playing due to his defense".)

[WillJ]

What a great story about Andre. I really admire him for talking about his depression in public - not an easy thing for an athlete. I was a little discomfited, too, by K's presentation in the article, but Andre obviously felt good enough about their relationship to come back when he could have transferred elsewhere. I hope he has some great moments this year.

[sagegrouse]

Having gone through my own bout with depression while at Duke, I wanted to say the following:
- Depression is crippling, not so much in regards to performance (though it can affect that), but in living. I look back on my years of depression, and although I experienced a lot of great things during that time and accomplished a lot, I also missed out in that I was there in person, but I was not living in the moment -- I was just going through the motions.
- In that sense, I think we need to redefine the question of what "Andre having a good basketball season means". He could be the star and still have a bad basketball season if he's not always there in the moment to enjoy it. On the other hand, he could have a great basketball season being no better than a walk-on if he living in the moment. I would hate for him to reflect back years later and think that he fulfilled his lifelong dream of being a Duke basketball player, but then he'd didn't really, because he wasn't present in the moment.
- You can beat depression, but it's always going to be there lurking around the corner. The longer you are not depressed, the less your risk of becoming depressed again, but the risk is never zero. For me, I fell in and out of it for a decade, and finally came out of it 8 years ago and have been happy ever since. My hope for Andre is that he looks back many years from now and sees this year as a turning point.
- Lastly, I'm impressed by how good a basketball player Andre is. You know how you can zone out on the road and just drive while your mind is elsewhere? Andre has been doing that more or less since his freshman year, yet he's been a rotation player. I can't help but be a little sad when thinking just how good he could have been if his mind had been in the right place all along. How much could he have improved? In a way, that may be Andre's biggest challenge after getting over his sister's death -- getting over what could have been and looking forward to what can still be.

Re: clinical depression. The late novelist William Styron, Duke 1947, was the celebrated author of Lie Down in Darkness, Sophie's Choice, and other books. IMHO (truly humble this time), his best book was a thin volume titled Darkness Visible, which was about about clinical depression. He suffered from it, as did his close friends and contemporaries, Art Buchwald and Mike Douglas. It is only 100 or so pages but will change your view of depression and mental illness.

sagegrouse

[kAzE]

Having gone through my own bout with depression while at Duke, I wanted to say the following:
- Depression is crippling, not so much in regards to performance (though it can affect that), but in living. I look back on my years of depression, and although I experienced a lot of great things during that time and accomplished a lot, I also missed out in that I was there in person, but I was not living in the moment -- I was just going through the motions.
- In that sense, I think we need to redefine the question of what "Andre having a good basketball season means". He could be the star and still have a bad basketball season if he's not always there in the moment to enjoy it. On the other hand, he could have a great basketball season being no better than a walk-on if he living in the moment. I would hate for him to reflect back years later and think that he fulfilled his lifelong dream of being a Duke basketball player, but then he'd didn't really, because he wasn't present in the moment.
- You can beat depression, but it's always going to be there lurking around the corner. The longer you are not depressed, the less your risk of becoming depressed again, but the risk is never zero. For me, I fell in and out of it for a decade, and finally came out of it 8 years ago and have been happy ever since. My hope for Andre is that he looks back many years from now and sees this year as a turning point.
- Lastly, I'm impressed by how good a basketball player Andre is. You know how you can zone out on the road and just drive while your mind is elsewhere? Andre has been doing that more or less since his freshman year, yet he's been a rotation player. I can't help but be a little sad when thinking just how good he could have been if his mind had been in the right place all along. How much could he have improved? In a way, that may be Andre's biggest challenge after getting over his sister's death -- getting over what could have been and looking forward to what can still be.

Great post. I'm not sure whether or not Dawkins' issue was clinical depression, but that certainly seems like it could have been the case. He's had his ups and downs at Duke, but I still think he's going to contribute to this team this year before it's all said and done. Anybody remember this game 2 years ago?

http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=313190127

Michigan St. was unranked at the time, but that team eventually made it into the sweet 16, where they lost in a close game to Louisville. So, he's had big games against elite teams before. It's just hard to remember what he's capable of and not think he can get back to that level of play. I think with the people around him this year, he can make a comeback. I still believe in him.

[gep]

I finally had the time to read the article. Some comments...

The poster in the media room with players jumping with joy, and Andre sitting in the background... tells a lot, to me.

Probably most of what was attributed to what Coach K said to Andre (e.g., "lousy teammate") might be more of what Andre told Seth, as opposed to what Coach K actually said to Seth. Also, in other Coach K quotes, it's not clear from the article that he actually interviewed Coach K, so those quotes might be Andre's words instead. If Seth did interview Coach K, I missed it :confused:

I'm also sure that Andre had enough discussions with Coach K when he left the team, and when he wanted to come back to the team, that Andre knew what he was getting in to ,and what was expected of him. He had so many options... that to choose to come back to Duke also tells a lot, to me.

Being part of the Duke team/family may be all that Andre needs and wants. Others have said that Andre should get more playing time, etc. But, Andre's quote in the article... "I'm coming back to play basketball. I want to start, and I want to score. If I didn't have that mind-set, there would be no point in me playing" maybe implies that he does really want to play.

But look at walk-ons and end-of-bench guys... like Tod Z, who didn't have to come back and be at the end-of-bench again. He also wanted to come back for one more year.

In any case, I'm on Andre's side, I'm a big fan, and only hope for Andre's happiness.

Thanks....

[SoCalDukeFan]

I think Andre graduated from high school early because Duke needed him.

My guess is that after the year off he is just not good enough right now. Hope he is later. I doubt if we would have won the Baylor game and NC without him.

SoCal

[HK Dukie]

FREE ANDRE!!!


I love the kid. He joined us early when we needed him. He beat Baylor and without that no 4th banner.

I completely trust the coaching staff on playing time etc. They know best. But if at all possible, FREE ANDRE!!

[MCFinARL]

I finally had the time to read the article. Some comments...

The poster in the media room with players jumping with joy, and Andre sitting in the background... tells a lot, to me.

Probably most of what was attributed to what Coach K said to Andre (e.g., "lousy teammate") might be more of what Andre told Seth, as opposed to what Coach K actually said to Seth. Also, in other Coach K quotes, it's not clear from the article that he actually interviewed Coach K, so those quotes might be Andre's words instead. If Seth did interview Coach K, I missed it :confused:

I'm also sure that Andre had enough discussions with Coach K when he left the team, and when he wanted to come back to the team, that Andre knew what he was getting in to ,and what was expected of him. He had so many options... that to choose to come back to Duke also tells a lot, to me.

Being part of the Duke team/family may be all that Andre needs and wants. Others have said that Andre should get more playing time, etc. But, Andre's quote in the article... "I'm coming back to play basketball. I want to start, and I want to score. If I didn't have that mind-set, there would be no point in me playing" maybe implies that he does really want to play.

But look at walk-ons and end-of-bench guys... like Tod Z, who didn't have to come back and be at the end-of-bench again. He also wanted to come back for one more year.

In any case, I'm on Andre's side, I'm a big fan, and only hope for Andre's happiness.

Thanks....

I'm not sure we read the same article. I didn't see any mention of Seth in it at all. The place where Davis mentions Coach K saying Andre had not been a good teammate is in description, not quotation, so you are right that we can't be positive of the source of that or of exactly what was said--but it is something that apparently happened in a team meeting, so it seems unlikely Davis would use it without being sure it was reasonably accurate--it would be too easy for Coach K to call him on it if he got it wrong:
Krzyzewski places a huge emphasis on body language and facial expressions. When he noticed Dawkins's non-reaction while watching video, he played it for the rest of the Blue Devils and called Dawkins out for being a lousy teammate.


And there are several direct quotations from Coach K. Here is just one example:
Krzyzewski had several meetings with Dawkins to help him find his spark. It was as if the kid had a different Andre speaking over each shoulder. "The one on the right was telling him, 'Let's not work, you've got enough, don't listen, show a mood,' " Krzyzewski explains. "The one on the left was saying, 'You know you shouldn't do that. You should be how you played against Michigan State.' My feeling was he needed to tell one of them to go to hell. I said, 'You can't be friends with both those guys. It's not gonna work.' " There are many others, all directly attributed with "Krzyzewski says" or a similar signal phrase.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/andre-dawkins/#ixzz2kcyGYtF2

It seems pretty clear Davis interviewed Coach K on this specific subject, for this particular article. So if you are suggesting that Coach K has somehow been misrepresented here, I think that is unlikely. Whether the spin Davis puts on the material gives a particular impression of either Andre or Coach K is another matter, although the comments in this thread suggest any obvious slant is debatable, with some saying the article seems to put Coach K in a negative light and others saying it doesn't at all.

From my point of view, people could certainly quibble, especially in retrospect, about the details of how the coaching staff handled this situation,and there are a couple of little things I might have done differently (not that anyone would ask me to coach a basketball team anytime soon), but it seems clear from the article that, overall, they made a good faith effort to balance the best interests of the team as a whole and the best interests of Andre as an individual.

Bottom line, though, I'm with you. I wish the very best for Andre. I assume he wants to play, and I hope he can work his way onto the court. But I suspect there are a lot of ways he can contribute to this team, and be a very good teammate, even if he seldom gets in the games. (Demonstrating free throw shooting technique comes to mind. ;) ) I hope he is happy above all, and I hope he feels proud (he should) to have chosen, and worked, to finish his journey at Duke instead of going somewhere else.

[Troublemaker]

I was a little discomfited, too, by K's presentation in the article, but Andre obviously felt good enough about their relationship to come back when he could have transferred elsewhere. I hope he has some great moments this year.

It's always interesting how two people can read the same thing and have completely opposite reactions. I thought Coach K came off great in the article, and it may be that we look for different things in a coach / teacher / elder.

Agreed with you and others on Dre. Hopefully he'll have some more Baylor-esque moments for us this year.

[jtheall]

I'm not sure we read the same article. I didn't see any mention of Seth in it at all[/B]. The place where Davis mentions Coach K saying Andre had not been a good teammate is in description, not quotation, so you are right that we can't be positive of the source of that or of exactly what was said--but it is something that apparently happened in a team meeting, so it seems unlikely Davis would use it without being sure it was reasonably accurate--it would be too easy for Coach K to call him on it if he got it wrong:

And there are several direct quotations from Coach K. Here is just one example: There are many others, all directly attributed with "Krzyzewski says" or a similar signal phrase.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/andre-dawkins/#ixzz2kcyGYtF2

It seems pretty clear Davis interviewed Coach K on this specific subject, for this particular article. So if you are suggesting that Coach K has somehow been misrepresented here, I think that is unlikely. Whether the spin Davis puts on the material gives a particular impression of either Andre or Coach K is another matter, although the comments in this thread suggest any obvious slant is debatable, with some saying the article seems to put Coach K in a negative light and others saying it doesn't at all.

From my point of view, people could certainly quibble, especially in retrospect, about the details of how the coaching staff handled this situation,and there are a couple of little things I might have done differently (not that anyone would ask me to coach a basketball team anytime soon), but it seems clear from the article that, overall, they made a good faith effort to balance the best interests of the team as a whole and the best interests of Andre as an individual.

Bottom line, though, I'm with you. I wish the very best for Andre. I assume he wants to play, and I hope he can work his way onto the court. But I suspect there are a lot of ways he can contribute to this team, and be a very good teammate, even if he seldom gets in the games. (Demonstrating free throw shooting technique comes to mind. ;) ) I hope he is happy above all, and I hope he feels proud (he should) to have chosen, and worked, to finish his journey at Duke instead of going somewhere else.


I think he was referring to Seth Davis, the author of the article, and not Seth Curry. I was confused by that as well.

[Troublemaker]

I didn't get this impression at all from the article. The impression I got was that K had to take some drastic action (cutting Dawkins from the team basically), so that Dawkins could face up and address his problems. Up to that point, Dawkins was not expressing his problems (to K in their meetings or to the counseler), and personal problems cannot be fixed if a person is in denial.

Agreed with this. Seems to me, based on the article, that cutting Dre off from basketball and recommending that he seek counseling and focus solely on confronting his demons was the correct move. Sometimes the harsh advice and the harsh action are what is needed, and it's better to provide an honest assessment rather than provide what a youngster wants to hear just to be liked. Very often the choice of an elder (be it parent, coach, or teacher) is to be loved now and hated later or to be hated now and loved later. The latter is always preferable.

[MCFinARL]

I think he was referring to Seth Davis, the author of the article, and not Seth Curry. I was confused by that as well.

Duh. (Slaps forehead.) Of course you are right, so that part is my bad. :( And the OP was correct that this information could have come from Andre rather than Coach K. It just didn't occur to me that someone would refer to a journalist, rather than a player, by first name only--although Seth Davis is obviously part of the Duke community.

On the other point though, the extensive direct quotations from Coach K do clearly indicate that that Davis spoke to him for this article.

[Billy Dat]

While the article is focused on Andre's very powerful and challenging story, it also provides rare glimpses into how tough and intense it is to be part of the Duke program under K. I know we all read about how he demand 100% honesty and instant communication of one's true thoughts the moment they occur - don't hold anything back. Now, imagine you are a depressed Andre Dawkins, mentally unwell and being constantly prodded, pushed and poked by one of the most famous coaches to ever live in an attempt to get you out of your funk. This isn't a warm shoulder to cry on, it's a military guy trying to "break you down and build you back up" by any means necessary - calling you out in front of your teammates, being bluntly honest with you in private and being angry when you refuse to display the same honesty. If you have people like that in your life, think about how you react to their challenges, and now picture being a clinically depressed 20 year old trying to "ignore" a force of nature like K. I give K credit, despite his age and more old school upbringing, he is attuned enough to know that something drastic (basically kicking Andre off the team) had to be done to "unstick" Andre from his cocoon and get him on the path to recovery. But, the lion's share of the credit, as others have said, goes to Andre for being brave enough to share his story in the hopes that others might benefit.

[FerryFor50]

While the article is focused on Andre's very powerful and challenging story, it also provides rare glimpses into how tough and intense it is to be part of the Duke program under K. I know we all read about how he demand 100% honesty and instant communication of one's true thoughts the moment they occur - don't hold anything back. Now, imagine you are a depressed Andre Dawkins, mentally unwell and being constantly prodded, pushed and poked by one of the most famous coaches to ever live in an attempt to get you out of your funk. This isn't a warm shoulder to cry on, it's a military guy trying to "break you down and build you back up" by any means necessary - calling you out in front of your teammates, being bluntly honest with you in private and being angry when you refuse to display the same honesty. If you have people like that in your life, think about how you react to their challenges, and now picture being a clinically depressed 20 year old trying to "ignore" a force of nature like K. I give K credit, despite his age and more old school upbringing, he is attuned enough to know that something drastic (basically kicking Andre off the team) had to be done to "unstick" Andre from his cocoon and get him on the path to recovery. But, the lion's share of the credit, as others have said, goes to Andre for being brave enough to share his story in the hopes that others might benefit.

Not only that, but he didn't run from it; he came back to Duke to face it. That takes a lot of heart.

[MCFinARL]

Not only that, but he didn't run from it; he came back to Duke to face it. That takes a lot of heart.

I totally agree with this. This is a case where finishing what he started is most likely the best choice, for a lot of reasons, even if Andre faces a real uphill battle for PT--but it's by no means the easiest choice.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

FREE ANDRE!!!


I love the kid. He joined us early when we needed him. He beat Baylor and without that no 4th banner.

I completely trust the coaching staff on playing time etc. They know best. But if at all possible, FREE ANDRE!!

I know it's not entirely your point, but Dre didn't beat Baylor by himself. His 2 threes were critical, yes, but I think it's understood that Nolan was the star of that game.

I'd also like to see Andre play, but only if he beats out the strong competition. He isn't Rudy.

[rsvman]

.......It seems pretty clear Davis interviewed Coach K on this specific subject, for this particular article. So if you are suggesting that Coach K has somehow been misrepresented here, I think that is unlikely. ........

I have no inside information about what happened or how accurate the article is, but I disagree in the strongest possible terms with this statement. Over the course of my lifetime, I have been personally involved with people and/or events that have been the subject of newspaper/magazine articles on several occasions. I have never once read an article that accurately reflected what actually happened. Never. Ever.

And, yes, on several occasions they puts words in quotation marks as though they had them on tape from an interview that were completely wrong. That I knew for a fact had never been said.

In short, it's not that I don't trust this article or the writer of this article. It's that I don't trust ANY article, or the writer of ANY article. From my perspective, to say it is "unlikely" that somebody in an article has been misrepresented doesn't make any sense. On the contrary, I think it is more likely that somebody has been misrepresented than it is that they are properly represented.

[Cameron]

All defensive issues aside, it is mind boggling to think that a player can go from dropping 26 points and six threes in a Champions Classic-level game as a junior, to playing zero minutes in another as a redshirt senior three years later. Without Dawkins, K doesn't break the all-time college wins record. OK, he probably still would have (it's very unlikely that K never would have won again), but it certainly wouldn't have been that night against Michigan State. Andre had a coming-out party in the Garden that night reminiscent of one of the many Reggie Miller threw there in the mid-'90s. He was simply awesome.

Yes, there are some deficiencies in the kid's game -- defense chief among them -- and, sure, the competition is steep on the perimeter this year. But Andre has to get some minutes as a spot-up scorer off the bench. He is the dream prototype catch-and-shoot guy. Andre is arguably the most lethal long-range shooter in the nation, and he's played 120 seconds in two games. In a situation like we faced down the stretch against Kansas, where almost no one outside of Amile Jefferson could make a key basket, Andre might've been able to work some magic. Defense wasn't an issue at that point, since we weren't attempting to play any regardless. What we could have used, however, was some old-fashioned shot-making by a shot maker.

I think a good comparison to the hot-and-cold nature of Andre's career is John Starks. While Starks was an elite defender during the prime of his NBA playing days, offensively the two are very similar. When he was off, Starks was erratic, prone to reckless decisions (i.e. heat-checking himself from three-point land 10 times in the fourth quarter of Game 7 of the '94 Finals despite making none of them) and generally an emotional rollercoaster who could explode at any minute (give up on defense, stop trying, outwardly argue with officials, etc.). This on-or-off pattern of productivity led to long spells of purgatory on the bench for Starks. When on, however, Starks was absolutely impossible to shake or stop. The opposing team could have double-teamed him with a pair of giraffes, and he'd still find the halo of the basket with pinpoint accuracy. It was that talent as a scintillating scorer who was virtually impossible to prep for that made Starks so vital to the success of the New York Knicks during his time there, and why some of his other less-desirable traits were overlooked.

As we've seen throughout the course of his career, Andre at times can also be that same type of tightly-wound player, who sometimes lets a poor night from the field get to his head and in effect completely shut him down. We've since learned some of the reasons for why this was -- he was angry, depressed and coping with off-the-court issues as well as the pressure and rigors of being a high-profile Duke basketball player. If Andre really is mentally in a healthier place now, and consequently better able to handle his inner demons and block all the negativity out and really focus on playing hard all game long by playing his role, and not just when he's making his shots, then I think he's much too valuable an asset not to get some meaningful minutes. How the team goes about doing that is the coaching staff's decision. But there has to be a lineup that can be effective that features Andre's unique and special skill-set.

Caveat: I'm a big Andre Dawkins fan.

[MCFinARL]

I have no inside information about what happened or how accurate the article is, but I disagree in the strongest possible terms with this statement. Over the course of my lifetime, I have been personally involved with people and/or events that have been the subject of newspaper/magazine articles on several occasions. I have never once read an article that accurately reflected what actually happened. Never. Ever.

And, yes, on several occasions they puts words in quotation marks as though they had them on tape from an interview that were completely wrong. That I knew for a fact had never been said.

In short, it's not that I don't trust this article or the writer of this article. It's that I don't trust ANY article, or the writer of ANY article. From my perspective, to say it is "unlikely" that somebody in an article has been misrepresented doesn't make any sense. On the contrary, I think it is more likely that somebody has been misrepresented than it is that they are properly represented.

Point taken--and you caught me in a rare moment of credulity, as I have had some similar experiences with the press. And as I look back at my statement now, I can see that it was too broad--I agree that, generally speaking, it would be rare for someone quoted by or described in the press not to be misrepresented somehow, to some extent. And obviously the decisions of both writers and editors can very much change the way remarks come across even if all of the quoted language is correct.

My remarks were made in response to a poster who questioned whether Coach K had actually spoken with Seth Davis at all in connection with this story; given the extensive quotations focused specifically on Andre's situation, not reported anywhere else that I have seen, and directly attributed to Coach K, I would still say that it is unlikely that--in this particular case, involving this reporter and this quoted person--Coach K did not speak with Davis, and at least somewhat unlikely that he did not say something at least fairly similar to the quoted remarks.

On the other hand, you are quite right that there could be errors of both omission and commission in the quoted language, and that quotations may have been put into a context that suggests something different from what was intended. I should have phrased my statement more carefully.

[Billy Dat]

Caveat: I'm a big Andre Dawkins fan.

Clearly, and I think you wrote a nice tribute. I think the Starks comparison is a little bit of a stretch as Starks was an All Star and key starter. Andre has never been that key a figure for our team. I will not argue that his sister's death may have derailed a career that could have been spectacular, but it did. Now, when the narrative suggests it should be his time to shine, the team offense has moved away from a style that suits his game. At least early on, our offense isn't set up to generate the kind of 3s that it used to.

[gep]

I'm not sure we read the same article. I didn't see any mention of Seth in it at all.


I think he was referring to Seth Davis, the author of the article, and not Seth Curry. I was confused by that as well.

So sorry for the confusion. Yes, I intended to refernece Seth Davis... I will be more careful in the future.


Duh. (Slaps forehead.) Of course you are right, so that part is my bad. :( And the OP was correct that this information could have come from Andre rather than Coach K. It just didn't occur to me that someone would refer to a journalist, rather than a player, by first name only--although Seth Davis is obviously part of the Duke community.

On the other point though, the extensive direct quotations from Coach K do clearly indicate that that Davis spoke to him for this article.

No, not your bad, but mine...

[gep]

My remarks were made in response to a poster who questioned whether Coach K had actually spoken with Seth Davis at all in connection with this story; given the extensive quotations focused specifically on Andre's situation, not reported anywhere else that I have seen, and directly attributed to Coach K, I would still say that it is unlikely that--in this particular case, involving this reporter and this quoted person--Coach K did not speak with Davis, and at least somewhat unlikely that he did not say something at least fairly similar to the quoted remarks.

On the other hand, you are quite right that there could be errors of both omission and commission in the quoted language, and that quotations may have been put into a context that suggests something different from what was intended. I should have phrased my statement more carefully.

This is really what I was thinking when I posted my comments...

[duke4ever19]

Andre has never been that key a figure for our team.

This is true. We've all seen a player gradually get more minutes over time while gaining the trust of the coaching staff and thereafter become and integral part of the team's success. Andre's performances have so tantalized us and that we want him to emerge in a similar way, but his story (so far) doesn't include this pleasant ending.


Now . . . the team offense has moved away from a style that suits his [Andre's] game. At least early on, our offense isn't set up to generate the kind of 3s that it used to.

Good observation. While he can command respect beyond the arc, he would probably not be as likely to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot, at least not at the level of a Hood, Parker, Cook and Suilamon.

[Cameron]

Clearly, and I think you wrote a nice tribute. I think the Starks comparison is a little bit of a stretch as Starks was an All Star and key starter. Andre has never been that key a figure for our team. I will not argue that his sister's death may have derailed a career that could have been spectacular, but it did. Now, when the narrative suggests it should be his time to shine, the team offense has moved away from a style that suits his game. At least early on, our offense isn't set up to generate the kind of 3s that it used to.

There are certainly some key differences between Starks and Dawkins, as you point out, but their all-or-nothing offensive games are strikingly similar IMO. Both are almost singularly defined by their legendary streak shooting. Either on or off, and rarely anything inbetween. And both are/were also freakishly-gifted jumpers. Starks just put his hops on exhibit more often since he owned a better handle and was able to get to the rim consistently. But Dre has that ability, however hidden most of the time due to limited slashing skills, to sky. It saddens me that Andre's driving game was never fully developed, because most college basketball fans have no idea just how good a leaper the kid really is. Tragically, a lot of Andre's game appears to have went untapped.

Note that this Starks/Dawkins comparison is completely relative to their respective stations in the game; Starks in the NBA and Dawkins at Duke. In no way I am arguing that Dawkins is as gifted or talented as John Starks. More than anything, I was comparing two players who possess equal ability to either completely dominate a game offensively or completely vanish from it without a trace. In that regard, because of their emotionally-fueled styles of play, where you never really know what you're going to get, I think there is some validity to it.

Anyway, while this is certainly a different team than we've had in recent seasons, I personally don't believe there is ever situation where a shooter as skilled as Andre cannot get at least five solid minutes to provide a scoring boost off the bench. As adept as Rasheed, Quinn, Rodney and Jabari are at attacking the rim and drawing help defenders, I don't see any good reason why Andre couldn't carve at least a small niche on this team as a quick hitter here and there. Am I the only one who thinks this? Maybe I am.

[MCFinARL]

This is really what I was thinking when I posted my comments...

And you could certainly be right about that. So we are in agreement. Thanks for graciously taking some of the blame for my Seth Davis-Seth Curry thinko.

[MCFinARL]

Anyway, while this is certainly a different team than we've had in recent seasons, I personally don't believe there is ever situation where a shooter as skilled as Andre cannot get at least five solid minutes to provide a scoring boost off the bench. As adept as Rasheed, Quinn, Rodney and Jabari are at attacking the rim and drawing help defenders, I don't see any good reason why Andre couldn't carve at least a small niche on this team as a quick hitter here and there. Am I the only one who thinks this? Maybe I am.

I think he could, too--but I'm not sure it's very likely to happen, unless the players otherwise deemed to be ahead of him in the rotation are having difficulties of one kind or another. I'd love to see it though as i am also a big Andre fan; I'll cross my fingers.

[nocilla]

I wonder if part of the reason Andre isn't playing much is that Coach K is testing (or maybe teaching) him with how he deals with not playing and if he keeps a positive attitude. How does he handle it now? Is he still supporting the team. Does he continue to work hard in practice to earn more minutes? From my outside perspective it seems he is handling it well. I wasn't looking for him on the bench to see what he was doing, but I do remember seeing him celebrating with the team after good plays on the few occasions the tv cameras showed the bench. So my hope is that after proving himself as a good teammate here in the first couple games, he will be reinserted into the lineup. Or this whole idea could just be wishful thinking on my part. Maybe he just isn't beating out the competition for minutes. Which may be attributed to him just needing time to get back up to speed after the time off.

[dyedwab]

...because it is conflating the issues of Andre's current playing time with the article about Andre's depression, which, while related, isn't the same. So I kind of wish there were a thread that were separate from the "Why isn't Andre getting minutes now?" conversation.


So here are a couple of things that I took from the Seth Davis piece. I preface this by saying that based on what we was reported in the article, some things give me pause.

1) The anecdote at the beginning about the picture, and the story that that very photo/incident led to Andre being chastised for being a bad teammate by Coach K illustrated 2 things for me - that Andre was suffering the telltale signs of clinical depression and that the coaching staff took a very long time to recognize it. And that this is not their fault, and not very surprising. It can be very difficult to tell when someone is just "bummed out" for a few days, and when there is something more going on.

2) Andre's disinterest in basketball and his unwillingness to talk were also "Get screened for depression" red flags. I would also make the point that, in the midst of depression, a depressed person doesn't even know what help to ask for, and if he/she did, would still fail to ask for it because they wouldn't want to disrupt/bother anyone else. This seems to fit Andre's situation to tee

3) "Tough Love" is a pretty common tool for not just Coach K, but many organizations, especially in the athletic world. And it is exactly the kind of strategy that is relatively counter-productive, when it is not accompanied by other support.

4) Someone in the organization is a hero for recognizing that what Andre was going through was different then just being down, uninterested, indolent, defiant, etc. It strikes me that it wasn't Coach K, who, in the article, appeared a bit skeptical, but Coach K deserves credit because someone who he trusted figured it out and persuaded him that radical measures were necessary.

5) To go back to a key point. Andre was clearly suffering from depression and it took a long time for everyone close to him to figure out. The article even says that his closest friends didn't know. Anyone who has ever suffered similarly will recognize both the difficulty of identifying depression, and admitting it. In a culture like Duke basketball, I can only imagine that it even harder than for those of us in other walks of life. So huge, huge, huge credit to Andre here. An immensely brave man.

[gus]

There are certainly some key differences between Starks and Dawkins, as you point out, but their all-or-nothing offensive games are strikingly similar IMO. Both are almost singularly defined by their legendary streak shooting. Either on or off, and rarely anything inbetween

I know everyone makes this argument, but this is simply not true with Dawkins. He is a remarkably consistent shooter (or was before he took a year off). His points scored correlates really closely to minutes played. What limited his minutes were his defense and his effort: never his shooting. If you look shot by shot (and I did) throughout his duke careeer, whether he makes or misses a shot has absolutely no predictive value on his next shot. If he misses two in a row or makes two in a row, that third shot is made just as often as any other shot. His odds of a make after three misses is the same after three makes.

Before this season, Andre has been a freakishly consistent shooter. The problem is that as three point shooter, there are fewer shots, and a greather than 50% change of missing, so the normal clustering you see in any random event is more prominant ... especially considering the other factors that would limit his minutes. I'm hoping he gets back to form quickly, because I really want to see him on the floor again. I'm heartened that whenever he's shown on the sideline, he's smiling, talking to his teammates, congratulating the players... Some of it may be artifice, but it sure looks genuine to me.

[Zeke]

...because it is conflating the issues of Andre's current playing time with the article about Andre's depression, which, while related, isn't the same. So I kind of wish there were a thread that were separate from the "Why isn't Andre getting minutes now?" conversation.


So here are a couple of things that I took from the Seth Davis piece. I preface this by saying that based on what we was reported in the article, some things give me pause.

1) The anecdote at the beginning about the picture, and the story that that very photo/incident led to Andre being chastised for being a bad teammate by Coach K illustrated 2 things for me - that Andre was suffering the telltale signs of clinical depression and that the coaching staff took a very long time to recognize it. And that this is not their fault, and not very surprising. It can be very difficult to tell when someone is just "bummed out" for a few days, and when there is something more going on.

2) Andre's disinterest in basketball and his unwillingness to talk were also "Get screened for depression" red flags. I would also make the point that, in the midst of depression, a depressed person doesn't even know what help to ask for, and if he/she did, would still fail to ask for it because they wouldn't want to disrupt/bother anyone else. This seems to fit Andre's situation to tee

3) "Tough Love" is a pretty common tool for not just Coach K, but many organizations, especially in the athletic world. And it is exactly the kind of strategy that is relatively counter-productive, when it is not accompanied by other support.

4) Someone in the organization is a hero for recognizing that what Andre was going through was different then just being down, uninterested, indolent, defiant, etc. It strikes me that it wasn't Coach K, who, in the article, appeared a bit skeptical, but Coach K deserves credit because someone who he trusted figured it out and persuaded him that radical measures were necessary.

5) To go back to a key point. Andre was clearly suffering from depression and it took a long time for everyone close to him to figure out. The article even says that his closest friends didn't know. Anyone who has ever suffered similarly will recognize both the difficulty of identifying depression, and admitting it. In a culture like Duke basketball, I can only imagine that it even harder than for those of us in other walks of life. So huge, huge, huge credit to Andre here. An immensely brave man.

Andre's story in SI sounds like the classic story of depression in young men. I too am surprised that it was not evaluated earlier - didn't Coach K have an encounter with depression after his back surgery?. With the medical resources at Duke Andre's case should have been handled better than it was, I also think the seemingly punitive response of cutting Andre off from his teammates and maybe only support system was counterproductive. Good for Andre that he was able to find other things to provide support. I'm glad we didn't see a suicide out of this as it seems to have been much more serious than it appeared from the media releases at the time.

[MCFinARL]

Andre's story in SI sounds like the classic story of depression in young men. I too am surprised that it was not evaluated earlier - didn't Coach K have an encounter with depression after his back surgery?. With the medical resources at Duke Andre's case should have been handled better than it was, I also think the seemingly punitive response of cutting Andre off from his teammates and maybe only support system was counterproductive. Good for Andre that he was able to find other things to provide support. I'm glad we didn't see a suicide out of this as it seems to have been much more serious than it appeared from the media releases at the time.

I don't think this is quite fair. The article says:


Dawkins tried switching his routine to see if that would help. He ate more. He ate less. He went to bed earlier, woke up later, took a nap before the game. Still, he could not shake the torpor. Krzyzewski suggested that Dawkins meet with his daughter, Lindy Frasher, a counselor in the Duke basketball office who holds a master's in clinical psychology from Pepperdine. Andre spoke with Frasher a couple of times, but he was just going through the motions.


This was in the middle of Andre's junior season. So while the coaching staff may not have recognized the extent of the problem, they were clearly at least open to the possibility that Andre needed some counseling--but apparently, Andre wasn't ready to accept that yet.

I'm not claiming every action and decision by the staff was correct--although I'm more than willing to acknowledge I might not be in the best position to judge that. But I don't think it's fair, based on this article, to slam Coach K and the staff for essentially ignoring the problem, because they didn't.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I know everyone makes this argument, but this is simply not true with Dawkins. He is a remarkably consistent shooter (or was before he took a year off). His points scored correlates really closely to minutes played. What limited his minutes were his defense and his effort: never his shooting. If you look shot by shot (and I did) throughout his duke careeer, whether he makes or misses a shot has absolutely no predictive value on his next shot. If he misses two in a row or makes two in a row, that third shot is made just as often as any other shot. His odds of a make after three misses is the same after three makes.

Before this season, Andre has been a freakishly consistent shooter. The problem is that as three point shooter, there are fewer shots, and a greather than 50% change of missing, so the normal clustering you see in any random event is more prominant ... especially considering the other factors that would limit his minutes. I'm hoping he gets back to form quickly, because I really want to see him on the floor again. I'm heartened that whenever he's shown on the sideline, he's smiling, talking to his teammates, congratulating the players... Some of it may be artifice, but it sure looks genuine to me.

This, unfortunately, is not correct. Quantitative analysis below:

I think that Andre is one of the most inconsistent scorers, and certainly the most inconsistent guard that he have this year. I ran an average / standard deviation analysis for 5 Duke "guards": Andre Dawkins (2011-12), Rasheed Sulaimon (2012-13), Quinn Cook (2012-13), Tyler Thornton (2012-13), and Rodney Hood (2011-12 @ Miss):

Average / SD
Andre Dawkins
PPG 8.38 7.39
MPG 22.35 7.78
PPM 0.35 0.30

Rasheed Sulaimon
PPG 11.56 6.34
MPG 29.17 5.01
PPM 0.39 0.20

Quinn Cook
PPG 11.69 5.91
MPG 33.56 5.55
PPM 0.35 0.17

Tyler Thornton
PPG 3.61 3.11
MPG 21.97 4.97
PPM 0.16 0.12

Rodney Hood
PPG 10.25 4.54
MPG 32.81 7.96
PPM 0.32 0.12

(PPG = points per game, MPG = minutes per game, PPM = points per miniute)

What it shows is extremely telling. No matter how you cut the data, Andre is a very inconsistent scorer. His standard deviation for both PPG and PPM (points per minute) are by far the highest of the five players. In addition, for someone who scores at a decent rate (8+ points a game), his inconsistency is fairly staggering. I would expect these numbers from someone who doesn't score much (like Tyler Thornton), but not from someone who's main role it is to score.

Andre may provide a lot of value to the team, but if this is a similar Andre from 2011-12, we can expect that he will shoot himself into and out of games.

[Billy Dat]

One thing about Andre and playing time - the Brian Zoubek scenario proves that it is possible for a Duke player to emerge from relative obscurity and play an essential role on a great team well into a year when he isn't getting much playing time.

[MCFinARL]

One thing about Andre and playing time - the Brian Zoubek scenario proves that it is possible for a Duke player to emerge from relative obscurity and play an essential role on a great team well into a year when he isn't getting much playing time.

Can't spork you so I will post to say thanks--this made me happy. :)

[rsvman]

........Andre may provide a lot of value to the team, but if this is a similar Andre from 2011-12, we can expect that he will shoot himself into and out of games.

Agree, but the difficulty is that it's pretty hard to do that if you're never allowed to see time on the floor.


Here's hoping that Coach K will at least give the kid a few minutes of burn over the course of the next few games and see whether he will sink or swim.

[_Gary]

Agree, but the difficulty is that it's pretty hard to do that if you're never allowed to see time on the floor.


Here's hoping that Coach K will at least give the kid a few minutes of burn over the course of the next few games and see whether he will sink or swim.


Amen.

[Cameron]

I know everyone makes this argument, but this is simply not true with Dawkins. He is a remarkably consistent shooter (or was before he took a year off). His points scored correlates really closely to minutes played. What limited his minutes were his defense and his effort: never his shooting. If you look shot by shot (and I did) throughout his duke careeer, whether he makes or misses a shot has absolutely no predictive value on his next shot. If he misses two in a row or makes two in a row, that third shot is made just as often as any other shot. His odds of a make after three misses is the same after three makes.

Before this season, Andre has been a freakishly consistent shooter. The problem is that as three point shooter, there are fewer shots, and a greather than 50% change of missing, so the normal clustering you see in any random event is more prominant ... especially considering the other factors that would limit his minutes. I'm hoping he gets back to form quickly, because I really want to see him on the floor again. I'm heartened that whenever he's shown on the sideline, he's smiling, talking to his teammates, congratulating the players... Some of it may be artifice, but it sure looks genuine to me.

I agree that Andre's shooting has never directly limited his minutes. However, I do think that Andre's shooting has indirectly limited his minutes. Andre, up to this point in his career anyway (and we now know some of the reason why), has been an extremely emotional player on the floor, who when things are not going his way (shots not falling, perceived bad call, or other things of that nature) is at risk of internally imploding at a moment's notice and just shutting down. (Hence the main focus of my John Starks comparison.) This type of emotional response to "off nights" as a result has negatively affected Andre's energy, hustle, defense and overall general productivity in many games that he might otherwise have been a bigger factor by playing more minutes by means of which he might eventually have found his stroke. At least, this is what I have gleaned from watching Andre over the years.

Now, with that said, I personally love the fire and passion that Andre plays with, and as long as he has learned to channel that emotion in a more productive way, as he appears to have done based on his supportive and upbeat demeanor on the sidelines so far this year even in light of limited to no minutes, then I think Andre can be a positive force for this team. I certainly hope so, as the kid is one of my absolute favorites ever at Duke. Never again did I think I'd enjoy watching another player as much as I did Chris Duhon, my all-time favorite Duke Blue Devil, but Andre comes very close. He's a special talent with a captivating presence and I desperately want for him to succeed on the floor again for Duke.

[cato]

This, unfortunately, is not correct. Quantitative analysis below:


Are you and Gus talking about different things? Gus contends that, based on his analysis of Andre Dawkins' shots, Dawkins is just as likely to hit any given shot, regardless of whether he hit his prior shot.

You say he is an inconsistent scorer.

These two things can be reconciled: something keeps Dawkins from scoring consistently, but it ain't his shot.

[gus]

This, unfortunately, is not correct. Quantitative analysis below:

I think that Andre is one of the most inconsistent scorers, and certainly the most inconsistent guard that he have this year. I ran an average / standard deviation analysis for 5 Duke "guards": Andre Dawkins (2011-12), Rasheed Sulaimon (2012-13), Quinn Cook (2012-13), Tyler Thornton (2012-13), and Rodney Hood (2011-12 @ Miss):

Average / SD
Andre Dawkins
PPG 8.38 7.39
MPG 22.35 7.78
PPM 0.35 0.30

Rasheed Sulaimon
PPG 11.56 6.34
MPG 29.17 5.01
PPM 0.39 0.20

Quinn Cook
PPG 11.69 5.91
MPG 33.56 5.55
PPM 0.35 0.17

Tyler Thornton
PPG 3.61 3.11
MPG 21.97 4.97
PPM 0.16 0.12

Rodney Hood
PPG 10.25 4.54
MPG 32.81 7.96
PPM 0.32 0.12

(PPG = points per game, MPG = minutes per game, PPM = points per miniute)

What it shows is extremely telling. No matter how you cut the data, Andre is a very inconsistent scorer. His standard deviation for both PPG and PPM (points per minute) are by far the highest of the five players. In addition, for someone who scores at a decent rate (8+ points a game), his inconsistency is fairly staggering. I would expect these numbers from someone who doesn't score much (like Tyler Thornton), but not from someone who's main role it is to score.

Andre may provide a lot of value to the team, but if this is a similar Andre from 2011-12, we can expect that he will shoot himself into and out of games.

I hadn't run the analysis of ppm -- that was based on my recollection. I was expecting a lower SD there. Thanks for correcting that. I prefer not to include Hood's time at Miss, because I have no idea how that team was run. But it's clear that Dawkin's minutes vary much greater than the other guards, which was part of my argument.

But I do have to quibble. I called him a remarkably consistent *shooter*, and I stand by that assessment. He is not a streaky shooter -- but his effort and defense limited his minutes. They probably also limited his shot chances, which probably explains the variation in his ppm.

[Kedsy]

I know everyone makes this argument, but this is simply not true with Dawkins. He is a remarkably consistent shooter (or was before he took a year off). His points scored correlates really closely to minutes played. What limited his minutes were his defense and his effort: never his shooting. If you look shot by shot (and I did) throughout his duke careeer, whether he makes or misses a shot has absolutely no predictive value on his next shot. If he misses two in a row or makes two in a row, that third shot is made just as often as any other shot. His odds of a make after three misses is the same after three makes.

Before this season, Andre has been a freakishly consistent shooter. The problem is that as three point shooter, there are fewer shots, and a greather than 50% change of missing, so the normal clustering you see in any random event is more prominant ... especially considering the other factors that would limit his minutes.

I know you and I have been through this many times over the years, but what made Andre inconsistent (i.e., "all or nothing," as Cameron put it) perhaps had to do with the perception of him being hot or cold. When Andre and his teammates felt he was hot, Andre tried harder to get open and was more willing to take his shot, and his teammates were much more likely to look to get him his shot. When Andre and his teammates felt he was cold, he kind of sat in the corner and his teammates ignored him. Thus, whether or not the next shot was more likely or less likely to go in -- or a random event, as you say -- he got a LOT more shots when he and the others perceived he was hot, and this perception certainly contributed to the feast-or-famine phenomenon.


One thing about Andre and playing time - the Brian Zoubek scenario proves that it is possible for a Duke player to emerge from relative obscurity and play an essential role on a great team well into a year when he isn't getting much playing time.

Well, except Brian Zoubek averaged 15 mpg in the 25 games before he "emerged." I'm not sure how good an example he is for someone who isn't playing at all.

[Billy Dat]

Well, except Brian Zoubek averaged 15 mpg in the 25 games before he "emerged." I'm not sure how good an example he is for someone who isn't playing at all.

And so another dream dies in the cold, hard face of reality. Those who want to watch Andre play better work on sneaking into practice...or, more practically, find a way to watch the next 4 games where a potentially large margin of victory might mean more PT for players 9-12.

[gus]

I know you and I have been through this many times over the years, but what made Andre inconsistent (i.e., "all or nothing," as Cameron put it) perhaps had to do with the perception of him being hot or cold. When Andre and his teammates felt he was hot, Andre tried harder to get open and was more willing to take his shot, and his teammates were much more likely to look to get him his shot. When Andre and his teammates felt he was cold, he kind of sat in the corner and his teammates ignored him. Thus, whether or not the next shot was more likely or less likely to go in -- or a random event, as you say -- he got a LOT more shots when he and the others perceived he was hot, and this perception certainly contributed to the feast-or-famine phenomenon.


Andre's scoring was definitely *not* consistent, and this is certainly a plausible explanation.

Under K, shooters usually always have the green light (and sometimes will get pulled if they pass up an open shot) -- witness JJ spotting up for threes in transition, even if no rebounders were in position. If Dawkins is in the game and not shooting, it's because he wasn't getting the ball.

[FerryFor50]

According to a tweet by Stephen Wiseman via Seth Davis, Andre had been limited by a bruised tailbone:

[Cameron]

According to a tweet by Stephen Wiseman via Seth Davis, Andre had been limited by a bruised tailbone:

I've never been so happy to hear about one of our players being injured. That is wonderful news.

And in light of Andre's scoring outburst tonight against Florida Atlantic, the future once again looks bright for No. 34. Hopefully, this is the first of many great things to come from America's greatest three-point shooter.

Could this night get any better?

[Ggallagher]

I've never been so happy to hear about one of our players being injured. That is wonderful news.

And in light of Andre's scoring outburst tonight against Florida Atlantic, the future once again looks bright for No. 34. Hopefully, this is the first of many great things to come from America's greatest three-point shooter.

Could this night get any better?

I'd never heard this before, but the announcers mentioned that Andre is the team's strongman. He's done the heaviest bench presses in the weight room. I had no idea.

[Durham Blue Devil]

According to a tweet by Stephen Wiseman via Seth Davis, Andre had been limited by a bruised tailbone:

Coach K said the same thing on the local post game show - that Dawkins had a great first month of practice but then got hurt and is working his way back. He said Dawkins "has always been in our plans". Great news.

[Cameron]

Coach K said the same thing on the local post game show - that Dawkins had a great first month of practice but then got hurt and is working his way back. He said Dawkins "has always been in our plans". Great news.

Thanks for posting.

Like others here, I just couldn't believe anything otherwise. Andre is just too valuable an asset to squander. He's still D.R.E.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5a93wABHNM

[Troublemaker]

I've never been so happy to hear about one of our players being injured. That is wonderful news.

Haha, that does change everything we've seen so far, doesn't it? I'm ecstatic for Dre. Hopefully he can carve out some sort of role coming off the bench. Especially with Sheed going into the starting lineup, he looks like the best hope for some offensive punch beyond the starters. Big test will be at the PNIT in MSG (as long as Duke avoids a Chaminade-esque upset beforehand). Assuming teams with quality guards will continue to take advantage of the current rules, can he defend the drive well enough so that he's a net positive when factoring in his offense?

[Mudge]

I'd never heard this before, but the announcers mentioned that Andre is the team's strongman. He's done the heaviest bench presses in the weight room. I had no idea.

Up till tonight, he's definitely been pressing heavy on the bench with his tailbone-- perhaps that's how he bruised it?

More seriously, let's hope he's back in the thick of things-- Duke could definitely use another scorer to augment (and rotate in with) Parker, Hood, Cook, and Sulaimon-- and I'm not yet convinced that Jefferson will be (consistently) able to provide it...

Plus, Duke is going to need a deeper, more involved bench this year, with the new rules-- this year's new rules emphases are practically guaranteed to make it nearly impossible for a team that plays defense the way Duke does to keep all of its players on the court without fouling out (in tight games against good competition)-- making a 1999-style, deep team, with many capable contributors playing meaningful minutes against top opposition all the more important-- you can't beat a top team like Kansas with certain of our current front-court players playing meaningful minutes... these new rules may be the spur that finally forces/drives Coach K to adopt a more Calipari/Williams'-like deep playing rotation.

[Cameron]

Assuming teams with quality guards will continue to take advantage of the current rules, can he defend the drive well enough so that he's a net positive when factoring in his offense?

As long as he is trading two for three, then I see no reason why not. :D

It's a good question moving forward, but there have been some marvelously talented offensive players throughout history who couldn't play a lick of defense yet still managed to do great things on the court. As long as Andre is committed to playing the best he possibly can both with and without the ball, he can find a role on this team. As you indicate, we need this kid's scoring touch off the bench. As a quick hitting three-point shooter, there is no better in college basketball. Can't wait to see what he can do on Monday and Tuesday night if given the chance.

[Native]

3684

[g-money]

I've never been so happy to hear about one of our players being injured. That is wonderful news.

And in light of Andre's scoring outburst tonight against Florida Atlantic, the future once again looks bright for No. 34. Hopefully, this is the first of many great things to come from America's greatest three-point shooter.

Could this night get any better?

A great evening indeed. It's terrific to see Andre to be back out there dropping bombs! Now that he's got his foot in the door of the Duke lineup, here are a few pointers that could help him not only burst through that doorway, but become a key ingredient to a championship-caliber Duke team:

1. On offense, when you don't have the ball, keep moving. (For inspiration, pop in a few JJ Redick videos and watch him run.) Play within the offense.
2. On defense, guard by moving your feet - especially in light of the new rules - and, equally importantly, by moving your mouth. Clog passing lanes and box out.
3. Exhibit good body language on the bench and on the court.

If Coach K sees this on the game tape, I'm sure he'll keep giving you minutes.

You might about ask my credentials. I believe my resume puts me in a unique position to provide valuable commentary. In addition to 2 glorious years of running the Duke offense/defense in high school - based directly on the world renowned videos "The Winning Attitude: Duke’s Man-to-Man Defense Video" and "Duke’s Motion Offense: Attacking Man and Zone Defenses Video" - I also have 20 years of experience armchair quarterbacking the Duke basketball team. I further have a PhD in sports fanaticism.

Go get it Andre!!!

[bob blue devil]

Coach K's post game comments:


"Andre's been a national champion here. He's been away for a year and people respect the fact that" he had to step away, Krzyzewski said. "He's done a great job in dealing with his situation and then staying at Duke, which is what he wanted to do, and being a good teammate and now being a major contributor. I would hope he does that every game."

Brought a smile to my face!

[OZ]

Coach K's post game comments:



Brought a smile to my face!



Thanks for sharing Coach K's comments. Hopefully, that quote plus the report of Dre's injury will end the speculation.

[Kedsy]

So, it appears the reports of Andre's demise have been greatly exaggerated?

I, for one, couldn't be happier about it.

[Kishiznit]

It was great seeing the picture perfect form from behind the arc but my favorite basket was when he put the ball on the floor and took it to the bucket for his only 2 pt FG. Welcome back Andre Dawkins!

[_Gary]

So, it appears the reports of Andre's demise have been greatly exaggerated?

I, for one, couldn't be happier about it.

To steal a phrase that purportedly comes from a wrestler (according to a friend of mine who watches such programming): YES! YES! YES!

[theschwartz]

Really glad to see Dre back and hope to see him in continued good spirits and getting along with teammates, no matter what's happening on the court. Reading the Seth Davis article--really good piece btw--I was surprised that the decision to separate from the program for a year was made by the coaching staff and not by Andre. I always thought it was Andre who made the decision, with the support of the staff. But it's really interesting to read about how Andre was so caught up in his own head that he seemingly had no idea how it was affecting his relationships with his teammates or his standing with the team, and that it was the coaches who ultimately pulled the trigger to take him off the team.

There was a lot of stuff I learned in the article and I thought it was a terrific snapshot into the psyche of a Duke basketball player and the pressures that come with being a part of such a high-profile program.

[G man]

I was so happy that Dre played well. Having Dre will give K just one more excellent piece to navigate the season.

[Rudy]

Here's hoping that Coach K will at least give the kid a few minutes of burn over the course of the next few games and see whether he will sink or swim.

Amen.

Prayer answered. Emphatically, and really nice to see.

[gep]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/andre-dawkins/?eref=sihp

I'm a huge Andre Dawkins fan. This video and SI article was excellent... for me, at least.

So... even if it's a Jabari article on the DBR front page, the picture of the guys on the bench with Andre in the middle just made me smile.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2014/1/21/5330086/sam-smith-speculates-on-parkers-future

He appears to be totally engaged, focused, and determined, and very happy with his teammates... almost the direct opposite of the picture in Davis' SI article. And his play on the court is also very different than previous years. I'm so happy for Andre, if indeed, he's found his happiness.

GO ANDRE!!!!! and GO DUKE!!!

[Furniture]

Wow the difference is amazing. Thanks for spotting and sharing!

[Highlander]

Andre Dawkins was interviewed on WFNZ 610 THE FAN this morning. Interview was at 7:45 on the MAC attack show. They typically have podcasts up a day or so later. Interview was good, although not terribly insightful. Andre asked to not talk about his personal life and the host obliged him. They talked about the platoon system and Andre noted that Coach K told them he "wasn't subbing people out for mistakes, just for fatigue." Andre gave his impressions of Parker's game. They also had a little fun with Cook's enthusiasm after big shots.

www.wfnz.com.

[Son of Jarhead]

Andre Dawkins was interviewed on WFNZ 610 THE FAN this morning. Interview was at 7:45 on the MAC attack show. They typically have podcasts up a day or so later. Interview was good, although not terribly insightful. Andre asked to not talk about his personal life and the host obliged him. They talked about the platoon system and Andre noted that Coach K told them he "wasn't subbing people out for mistakes, just for fatigue." Andre gave his impressions of Parker's game. They also had a little fun with Cook's enthusiasm after big shots.

www.wfnz.com.

http://charlotte.cbslocal.com/2014/01/22/andre-dawkins-coaching-the-olympics-has-been-huge-for-k/

[kAzE]

Whatever he was wearing, whatever he did on Monday, he needs to do that every day we have a game.