Jabari

[duke96]

Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?

From what I have seen so far, I think this is likely. Obviously this is rarified air, to say the least.

Thoughts?

[moonpie23]

will the earth fry to a crisp from a mutant solar flare?

let's get more information...

[CharlestonDevil]

Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?

From what I have seen so far, I think this is likely. Obviously this is rarified air, to say the least.

Thoughts?

Not sure that we can say definitively just yet but I'll tell you this...

The alley oop last night gave me chills when I automatically had a flashback to the Hurley to Hill alley oop in the 91' championship vs. Kansas. If Parker can even scratch being in the same category as Grant that is special.

[duke96]

will the earth fry to a crisp from a mutant solar flare?

let's get more information...

You're right, why ruminate about things on this site in advance of having perfect information to draw a conclusion in retrospect.

Mods, can you please shut down the whole site?

yeesh. try the other side of the bed.

[duke96]

Not sure that we can say definitively just yet but I'll tell you this...

The alley oop last night gave me chills when I automatically had a flashback to the Hurley to Hill alley oop in the 91' championship vs. Kansas. If Parker can even scratch being in the same category as Grant that is special.

We certainly cannot definitively say, but eerily similar, wasn't it? The kid does seem to be special.

[Class of '94]

Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?

From what I have seen so far, I think this is likely. Obviously this is rarified air, to say the least.

Thoughts?

If he stays more than a year, he might have a chance to be; but I still think Grant has been the most talented player to play for Duke. Jabari is a better shooter and scorer than Grant was; but Grant was better defensively, and a little more versatile because he played offensively and defensively all 5 positions over the course of his Duke career. Jabari is still learning to be a better defensive player and I don't see him guarding point guards like Grant did. I also think Grant was quicker and more explosive to the basket as well as the better athlete and all-around player imo. That said, Jabari reminds me a lot of Grant in his mannerisms and humbleness. And while Jabari appears to be a good passer, I would grant the edge in that department because of his playmaking ability. Jabari's game is more inside-out whereas Grant's game was more outside-in. Again, both are tremendous players; but Grant gets my vote; and I would probably put J-Will second behind Grant and in front of Mr. Parker for now.

[Li_Duke]

I get chills from just watching him plays. He just gets it. I've seen it with upperclassmen, but the only other freshman I can say that for is Kyrie Irving (too bad we only saw him in a handful of games). I think at the end of the day, we're all going to be agreeing that Jabari was a better freshman than any of Elton Brand, Jay Williams, or Luol Deng (the next best 3 freshman I've seen. Grant Hill was before my time).

[Class of '94]

I get chills from just watching him plays. He just gets it. I've seen it with upperclassmen, but the only other freshman I can say that for is Kyrie Irving (too bad we only saw him in a handful of games). I think at the end of the day, we're all going to be agreeing that Jabari was a better freshman than any of Elton Brand, Jay Williams, or Luol Deng (the next best 3 freshman I've seen. Grant Hill was before my time).

Man, I'm feeling old because I went to school at the same time as Grant and had the luxury of watching him play for 4 years. You missed it my friend. ;)

On a more serious note, you should go back and watch games from the ACC vault of Grant while he was at Duke. He was a tremendous talent.

[WillJ]

It's early, but Jabari seems like a stronger but slower Grant Hill, which is obviously high praise. He seems a better shooter than freshman Grant, but, as others have noted, he doesn't seem to be the defender that Grant was.

[Troublemaker]

Yeah, I would say Grant Hill is Duke's most talented player ever, and were it not for injuries suffered in the NBA, Grant would've been in the Naismith Hall of Fame.

Jabari is almost right there with him. A much better shooter than Grant, but not yet the lockdown defender that Grant was. Perry Ellis is very good but no better than Stacey Augon on the undefeated UNLV team, whom Grant put the clamps on.

All other differences are slight. Grant was a bit more athletic with a slightly better handle; he was a 6'8" point guard whenever Hurley was out.

Both great, great people who are salt of the earth, smart, and treat others with respect.

[gus]

Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?

From what I have seen so far, I think this is likely. Obviously this is rarified air, to say the least.

Thoughts?

You personally witnessed two years of Grant Hill and you're asking that question (assuming that '96 is your class)? I think Jabari has a long way to go to be the most talented ever. He's certainly got the potential to be a phenomenal player, but after two games (where defense is pretty much not allowed) it's hard to see if he'll be the best ever.

[DevilFalcon]

I think we can already say he will be on the list. Kyrie is a recent transcendent talent that I don't think we can punish for being hurt. He would have been national player of the year, no doubt. So we'll see how Parker does before saying this for sure. I also think it will depend on how long he stays at Duke.

[nmduke2001]

I think Grant Hill wins this argument pretty easily.

If we're comparing, I actaully think Jabari compares very favorably with a freshman Carmelo Anthony. Basically a body of a 4 with the skills of a two.

[Kedsy]

Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?

From what I have seen so far, I think this is likely. Obviously this is rarified air, to say the least.

Thoughts?

If you said freshman (rather than player) this might be a legitimate debate. Also, there are many definitions of "talent." To say after two games that Jabari is likely the "most talented player" ever for Duke seems myopic and hyperbolic to me.

[duke96]

You personally witnessed two years of Grant Hill and you're asking that question (assuming that '96 is your class)? I think Jabari has a long way to go to be the most talented ever. He's certainly got the potential to be a phenomenal player, but after two games (where defense is pretty much not allowed) it's hard to see if he'll be the best ever.

I did indeed and it was a special privilege. I think from what we have seen so far of Jabari, he may have the potential to be a better all around player. In particular, his size (already beefier than Grant with presumably more to come) and versatility (outside shot and potential post capabilities) may distinguish him. On the flip side, he may never rival Grant's D and overall fluidity. As you may have noted, the question posed was will he turn out to be (not is he now).

[bob blue devil]

If you said freshman (rather than player) this might be a legitimate debate. Also, there are many definitions of "talent." To say after two games that Jabari is likely the "most talented player" ever for Duke seems myopic and hyperbolic to me.

I think his post refers to the whole of their basketball careers, not just their time at Duke. At least I hope so...

With that said, Jabari would need to continue his rocket ship growth for quite a while to match Grant in his prime. I'm not sure it can be done.

[sagegrouse]

Will [Jabari] turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?



Although I am having a little trouble parsing your question: Will JP have the best Duke career? Or the best NBA career of any Dukie? Or what? But, Jabari Parker and Kyrie Irving have had the best starts of any player for Duke since freshmen became eligibile. FWIW, Johnny Dawkins started 14-18-28-20 in his first four games, but the cupboard was bare before he and his classmates arrived on the scene in the fall of 1982.

sagegrouse

[duke96]

If you said freshman (rather than player) this might be a legitimate debate. Also, there are many definitions of "talent." To say after two games that Jabari is likely the "most talented player" ever for Duke seems myopic and hyperbolic to me.

As you will note in more carefully reading the question posed (myopia?) it revolved around what do we think he will ultimately turn out to be based on what we have seen so far, not what can we definitively conclude based on two games. I think it is a legitimate debate and was curious what others think based on this limited body of evidence. I love this site and you and MoonPie are terrific contributors whose opinions I very much enjoy reading but it does puzzle me why people (like me) that don't post often seem to attract ill-considered criticism.

[duke96]

Although I am having a little trouble parsing your question: Will JP have the best Duke career? Or the best NBA career of any Dukie? Or what? But, Jabari Parker and Kyrie Irving have had the best starts of any player for Duke since freshmen became eligibile. FWIW, Johnny Dawkins started 14-18-28-20 in his first four games, but the cupboard was bare before he and his classmates arrived on the scene in the fall of 1982.

sagegrouse

Good question! I don't think it is possible for a presumable one-and-done to have the best Duke career, which is why I referred to talent. I think NBA potential is a fair way to think about it. Barring injury, I think Jabari and Kryie will be neck and neck for best NBA players we have turned out (with Grant and JWill never having been able to show us their full potential). Can't wait to see more from this kid.

[oldnavy]

JP is special for sure. Doubtful he will stay around long enough to be the GOAT at Duke however, that is either Laettner or Hill IMO.

FWIW, IMO Wiggins was the third best freshman that played last night. Randle was first, Parker second, then Wiggins.... All outstanding BTW.

But Randle is a beast, not sure with the new rules how anyone will be able to guard him in the post....

[Kedsy]

As you will note in more carefully reading the question posed (myopia?) it revolved around what do we think he will ultimately turn out to be based on what we have seen so far, not what can we definitively conclude based on two games. I think it is a legitimate debate and was curious what others think based on this limited body of evidence. I love this site and you and MoonPie are terrific contributors whose opinions I very much enjoy reading but it does puzzle me why people (like me) that don't post often seem to attract ill-considered criticism.

Sorry, I didn't think that was at all clear from your original post. Sounded like you were talking about Duke career, not NBA career.

But even looking at NBA career, Grant Hill was a 7-time All Star. You think it's "likely" that Jabari will be better than that after watching him for two games? Feel free to disagree, and I am sorry if you were insulted by my earlier post, but I don't think criticism of that statement is ill-considered.

[duke4ever19]

I love this site and you and MoonPie are terrific contributors whose opinions I very much enjoy reading but it does puzzle me why people (like me) that don't post often seem to attract ill-considered criticism.

With the added traffic coming from the SBNation, there are definitely going to be some "growing pains" for posters on this site. :D

[bob blue devil]

...Barring injury, I think Jabari and Kryie will be neck and neck for best NBA players we have turned out (with Grant and JWill never having been able to show us their full potential). Can't wait to see more from this kid.

While we probably didn't get to see Grant Hill hit his very peak, he did finish 3rd in the MVP voting behind Karl Malone and Michael Jordan. I think Jabari is a phenomenal player and talent, but unless he can grow into a top 5 nba player, this is not a debate. Kyrie has a shot, but, likewise, has a ways to go. Do you see Jabari as a potential top 5 NBA player (i.e. in the discussion with Lebron, Melo, CP, Durant, etc.)? I suppose he could, but it's such a long ways from where we are right now.

[Gthoma2a]

JP is special for sure. Doubtful he will stay around long enough to be the GOAT at Duke however, that is either Laettner or Hill IMO.

FWIW, IMO Wiggins was the third best freshman that played last night. Randle was first, Parker second, then Wiggins.... All outstanding BTW.

But Randle is a beast, not sure with the new rules how anyone will be able to guard him in the post....

I could be crazy, but I see Parker as better than Randle. Randle only has one thing. It's a good thing, but his talent is very limited until he becomes well-rounded. Jabari could do whatever he wants to on the court.

[Ichabod Drain]

I could be crazy, but I see Parker as better than Randle. Randle only has one thing. It's a good thing, but his talent is very limited until he becomes well-rounded. Jabari could do whatever he wants to on the court.

Just curious... what is Randle's one thing?

[Li_Duke]

I could be crazy, but I see Parker as better than Randle. Randle only has one thing. It's a good thing, but his talent is very limited until he becomes well-rounded. Jabari could do whatever he wants to on the court.

Every sports writer has compared Jabari, Randle, and Wiggins to different former NBA players. My take:
Jabari - Carmelo Anthony with better attitude
Randle - more athletic Zach Randolph
Wiggins - less skilled Tracy McGrady

Talent-wise, I think Jabari's prime will fall just short of Grant Hill's (MVP candidate) and Kyrie Irving's (future MVP candidate if he continues his growth and learns to defend), but ahead of Elton's (2nd team NBA) and Carlos.

Bold prediction: In the long-run, Duke will have 3 future hall of famers (Hill, Irving, Parker) due to their NBA playing career, not including future Duke players.
Bold prediction 2: Somewhere in Winston-Salem, NC, a young basketball prodigy is watching Parker and how Coach K uses him and thinking "That could be me in few years."

[JamminJoe]

Based on a small sample size of 2 games, I would say that Jabari definitely has the potential to be as great or to be better than Grant Hill. To have a game like he did last night on a big stage, in only his second game at Duke, is no fluke.

[duke96]

While we probably didn't get to see Grant Hill hit his very peak, he did finish 3rd in the MVP voting behind Karl Malone and Michael Jordan. I think Jabari is a phenomenal player and talent, but unless he can grow into a top 5 nba player, this is not a debate. Kyrie has a shot, but, likewise, has a ways to go. Do you see Jabari as a potential top 5 NBA player (i.e. in the discussion with Lebron, Melo, CP, Durant, etc.)? I suppose he could, but it's such a long ways from where we are right now.

Ya know that is a pretty compelling case (as is Kedsy's). Hard to argue that he has indeed shown that potential. But I also wouldn' be totally shocked if he got to that level.

[Gthoma2a]

Just curious... what is Randle's one thing?

Close range tenacity. The kind of thing that can't be taught, but doesn't translate into stardom at the next level.

[Dukehky]

Close range tenacity. The kind of thing that can't be taught, but doesn't translate into stardom at the next level.

Re: Tyler Hansbrough

Randle is much more like Boogie Cousins though. That kid is a manimal.

Maybe Jabari will stay for more than one year!!!! It could happen.

[duke4ever19]

Re: Tyler Hansbrough

Randle is much more like Boogie Cousins though. That kid is a manimal.

Maybe Jabari will stay for more than one year!!!! It could happen.

If any of the three touted freshmen stayed I think it would be our guy. I would be walking on sunshine if that happened.

[Dev11]

Close range tenacity. The kind of thing that can't be taught, but doesn't translate into stardom at the next level.

Blake Griffin is a star, and I think Julius Randle will be, too.

[Dev11]

With the added traffic coming from the SBNation, there are definitely going to be some "growing pains" for posters on this site. :D

Just don't tell the new people what the pitchforks mean.

Wait, shoot.

[duke4ever19]

Just don't tell the new people what the pitchforks mean.

Wait, shoot.

Bit of honesty here... I have no clue what the pitchforks mean. Some rating scale I suppose.

This really is a great site with such informed posters. I totally understand the day-after-a-loss crankiness when it creeps into posts. Heck, I've caught myself doing it today

Jabari will be an invaluable player this year. He really is a "queen on a chess board" as they said last night. I hope he weathers the so-called "freshman wall." I remember Singler's freshman year. He was so good for us, but tailed off noticeably in the home stretch.

[Gthoma2a]

Blake Griffin is a star, and I think Julius Randle will be, too.

I don't think he has that type of athleticism, and I see his size as a problem. I think he will end up more like Michael Kidd Gilcrest. I could certainly be wrong, though.

[TexHawk]

Blake Griffin is a star, and I think Julius Randle will be, too.

Yea, but Blake Griffin is limited too. If Randle ends up with a Chris Paul feeding him the ball, he will go a long way.

Interesting player, Mr. Randle. When he had to body up with a guy of similar stature (Payne), he couldn't do a thing. He went nuts after Payne got in foul trouble, leaving MSU backups or Dawson to try and cover him. He will eat CBB alive because very few teams can match up with him, but when he gets to the NBA, he won't be able to push people around.

Also, I know the voters on CBB awards don't care about defense, but NBA GMs do, and Randle was beyond awful last night. Maybe that was partly by design, to keep him fresh for offense, but he has negative value as a defender right now.

[kexman]

The one thing to remember about comparing grant hill and parker is that most of the top talent (soph, jr, sr) is in the NBA allowing freshman to shine. There are not many Laettner's and Hurley's returning to teams anymore to make a superstar freshman take somewhat of a back seat.

Instead of the 3 star freshman last night we might have been talking about senior Kyrie Irving and Kentucky's Anthony Davis plus the numerous other stars that would still have college eligibility left.

With that being said.. Parker did look like he would be great regardless of the competition.

[weezie]

It's early, but Jabari seems like a stronger but slower Grant Hill, which is obviously high praise. He seems a better shooter than freshman Grant, but, as others have noted, he doesn't seem to be the defender that Grant was.

Well, Jabari was playing some kind of mythical position last night that consisted of center/swing forward and shooting guard. No wonder he looked a tad gassed at the end of the game. Lots of running, drills, maybe some barfing on tap during team practice in the next few days....

[BobbyFan]

Every sports writer has compared Jabari, Randle, and Wiggins to different former NBA players. My take:
Jabari - Carmelo Anthony with better attitude
Randle - more athletic Zach Randolph
Wiggins - less skilled Tracy McGrady

Jabari is a better pure shooter and passer, and has better awareness in the half court offense than Anthony, so I think Paul Pierce would be an even better comparison. And although when Jabari sent home that alley-oop, I had immediate recollections of Grant's during his freshman season, their games are not very similar. Grant was both the most talented Duke player and the one with the best overall resume, even accounting for injuries. In terms of impact during freshman seasons, Parker will easily surpass Grant simply because of opportunity. I'd say Kyrie and Elton had the biggest impacts as freshmen for us, with Luol behind them; Jabari will be in that mix.

As for Wiggins (and I am basing this on an incredibly small sample size as I can't remember the last time I ever watched a high school basketball game or a player's highlight clip), he is incredibly raw for someone who has been hyped as he is. Stylistically, and I suspect this will change as he develops during the season, his game is most similar to Shawn Marion: a fantastic off the ball player with great leaping ability, both in vertical and quickness. And there is no reason that he shouldn't be by far the best defender of the big 3 freshman.

[Atlanta Duke]

FWIW Sports Guy Bill Simmons (who was at the games last night) has climbed on the bandwagon

I'm changing all Scandal for Randle/Riggin' for Wiggins jokes to Sorry for Jabari.

https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/status/400476049462419456

[NYBri]

The one thing to remember about comparing grant hill and parker is that most of the top talent (soph, jr, sr) is in the NBA allowing freshman to shine. There are not many Laettner's and Hurley's returning to teams anymore to make a superstar freshman take somewhat of a back seat.

Instead of the 3 star freshman last night we might have been talking about senior Kyrie Irving and Kentucky's Anthony Davis plus the numerous other stars that would still have college eligibility left.

With that being said.. Parker did look like he would be great regardless of the competition.

Great point. I'd like to be talking Kyrie today.

[kAzE]

Parker is incredible, but we need to see more before these comparisons can be made. I think I still have to go with Hill, then Irving as the best players to play at Duke so far, and I think Irving has the potential to pass Hill. I just remember watching that early season game in 2010 against Michigan State where Irving was just dominant. I got chills down my spine watching him play in that game, and I remember just thinking: "Wow, that kid is really, really special."

If you forgot, here's a refresher: http://espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=303350150

And no, Parker has not had a game like that yet.

I'm still waiting for Parker to show us that he can close a game. Both games thus far, he's dominated in the first half, but seemingly run out of gas in the 2nd. Is it a conditioning issue? Does he not have a killer instinct? It remains to be seen, but I know one thing for sure, Kyrie Irving is the best closer (with apologies to Laettner) to ever play at Duke. The guy is absolutely clutch in the last 5 minutes of the 4th and OT. He can just shift into another gear that most players don't have when the game is on the line. Anybody catch that double OT game against the Raptors? Irving was magnificent.

Right now, I would say Jabari has maybe put himself in the top 10 for best ballers to play at Duke, but he's still got a long way to go.

[moonpie23]

Although I am having a little trouble parsing your question: Will JP have the best Duke career? Or the best NBA career of any Dukie? Or what? But, Jabari Parker and Kyrie Irving have had the best starts of any player for Duke since freshmen became eligibile. FWIW, Johnny Dawkins started 14-18-28-20 in his first four games, but the cupboard was bare before he and his classmates arrived on the scene in the fall of 1982.

sagegrouse

preCISELY…..

[bob blue devil]

Just don't tell the new people what the pitchforks mean.

Wait, shoot.

I'm going to let the cat out of the bag - they are a sign of having a lot of time on your hands...

[whereinthehellami]

I'm going to let the cat out of the bag - they are a sign of having a lot of time on your hands...

So, what are you saying?:D

[Dev11]

I'm going to let the cat out of the bag - they are a sign of having a lot of time on your hands...

Isn't that what this whole site is for?

[Highlander]

Anyone crowning Jabari Parker as the greatest player to ever put on a Duke uniform needs to go back and watch his (lack of) post defense in the past two games. He is an offensive wizard, but his defense needs to take a couple of steps up before I think we start the best ever bandwagon.

[jv001]

Anyone crowning Jabari Parker as the greatest player to ever put on a Duke uniform needs to go back and watch his (lack of) post defense in the past two games. He is an offensive wizard, but his defense needs to take a couple of steps up before I think we start the best ever bandwagon.

I'm not saying Jabari Parker is Duke's greatest player ever, but he is a very good player. As for his post defense, I think the decision to front the low post players caused most of his problems. I think that decision came from the coaches. However his ability to hedge on the screens up top, was poor. But so was Quinn and Josh. I think Jabari will improve greatly in his defense. He seems to have the make up to excel in all facets of the game. GoDuke!

[Ichabod Drain]

Anyone crowning Jabari Parker as the greatest player to ever put on a Duke uniform needs to go back and watch his (lack of) post defense in the past two games. He is an offensive wizard, but his defense needs to take a couple of steps up before I think we start the best ever bandwagon.

In the Kansas game he let a couple plays go on defense simply to avoid picking up fouls. It's going to be hard for anyone to play good D for 25-30 minutes a game this year without getting in foul trouble.

[Highlander]

In the Kansas game he let a couple plays go on defense simply to avoid picking up fouls. It's going to be hard for anyone to play good D for 25-30 minutes a game this year without getting in foul trouble.

I saw a lot more than just a couple of plays. Parker defended Ellis for much of the game, and Ellis led all scorers with 24 shooting 9-13. Ellis also played 35 minutes and had only 2 fouls, FWIW. Not all of those points are Parker's fault, but he was repeatedly caught out of position and didn't switch well on screens, giving Ellis wide open looks. Parker also gave up a silly foul on a breakaway that disqualified him at the end of the game when he should have just let the play go.

The new rule changes make it very difficult to defend cutters and the post, and I personally hate how ticky tack the foul calls seem to be. I agree it is going to be difficult to play tough defense for 30-35 minutes in the post without fouling. If Parker is as historically good as some people here are predicting, he'll need to figure out how to defend much more effectively than he has to date.

Don't get me wrong - Parker's offense is brilliant and downright unstoppable at times. I just think his defense is most definitely a WIP.

[Billy Dat]

To the original poster, duke96, I agree that the board can be maddening at time with other posters only commenting to criticize, but, as in life, I'd say to try and listen to the criticism without emotion and see if there is any truth in it. Or, simply ignore it all together if you don't agree. Message board culture tends to be really negative, but this board is at least moderated to be civil, and the population tends to be fairly demanding when it comes to precision of thought and logic of reasoning. Don't get discouraged, your original post, after all, has sparked an interesting discussion.

I think there are three ways to approach answering the original, slightly ambiguous question.

-Who had the best Duke career?
-Who had the most accomplished overall basketball career?
-Who, regardless of the first two categories, was the most talented basketball player (combining raw athletic ability and basketball IQ/ability to execute on the court)?

I only add the third category to make a case for Jason Williams. Would he have been as good a pro as Grant? It is really impossible to say that he wouldn't. Rookie point guards have a steep learning curve. While his rookie year wasn't as smooth as Kyrie's, he was figuring it out. That kid was such an electric talent. I'd have to put Grant at #1 because of his two way play. But, from a pure talent perspective, Williams might be #2 behind Grant.

This list might be Grant>Kyrie>Jason Williams>Boozer/Brand>Deng

Because of the difference in era, I find it hard to properly place Mullins and Marin. Both would rank very high in the second category as both were 10,000+ point NBA scorers with multiple All Star game appearances. It's just hard to evaluate how well they'd play in a modern game against modern athletes. The next guys on my list were some order of Redick, Laettner, Maggette, Dawkins, GMan, Battier, Dunleavy, Ferry, etc.

As for Jabari, he certainly has the potential to crack the very top of that list.

[duke96]

To the original poster, duke96, I agree that the board can be maddening at time with other posters only commenting to criticize, but, as in life, I'd say to try and listen to the criticism without emotion and see if there is any truth in it. Or, simply ignore it all together if you don't agree. Message board culture tends to be really negative, but this board is at least moderated to be civil, and the population tends to be fairly demanding when it comes to precision of thought and logic of reasoning. Don't get discouraged, your original post, after all, has sparked an interesting discussion.

I think there are three ways to approach answering the original, slightly ambiguous question.

-Who had the best Duke career?
-Who had the most accomplished overall basketball career?
-Who, regardless of the first two categories, was the most talented basketball player (combining raw athletic ability and basketball IQ/ability to execute on the court)?

I only add the third category to make a case for Jason Williams. Would he have been as good a pro as Grant? It is really impossible to say that he wouldn't. Rookie point guards have a steep learning curve. While his rookie year wasn't as smooth as Kyrie's, he was figuring it out. That kid was such an electric talent. I'd have to put Grant at #1 because of his two way play. But, from a pure talent perspective, Williams might be #2 behind Grant.

This list might be Grant>Kyrie>Jason Williams>Boozer/Brand>Deng

Because of the difference in era, I find it hard to properly place Mullins and Marin. Both would rank very high in the second category as both were 10,000+ point NBA scorers with multiple All Star game appearances. It's just hard to evaluate how well they'd play in a modern game against modern athletes. The next guys on my list were some order of Redick, Laettner, Maggette, Dawkins, GMan, Battier, Dunleavy, Ferry, etc.

As for Jabari, he certainly has the potential to crack the very top of that list.

Billy thanks for the note. Great points. I left the question somewhat ambiguous in that respect intentionally as I thought it might provoke a more interesting dialogue -- and I agree that it has! I also share your views about JWill's talent and how it ranks. Still saddened that we never got to see his NBA potential. I do agree early signs from Jabari suggest that he could indeed ultimately prove to be top of the list. Can't wait to see more!

[jamesfrommaiden]

Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?

From what I have seen so far, I think this is likely. Obviously this is rarified air, to say the least.

Thoughts?

Did you ever see a player named Grant Hill? He was pretty talented. Plus Grant was a champion. Talent is wonderful. Talent is necessary. Championships are the goal.

[weezie]

Did you ever see a player named Grant Hill? He was pretty talented. Plus Grant was a champion. Talent is wonderful. Talent is necessary. Championships are the goal.

Absolutely. But Grant had some help from Messieurs Laettner and Hurley for those championships. Jabari can't do it without a well-coordinated offense. It was harder for Grant to pull it off towards the latter part of his Duke career and Grant is admittedly one of the greatest Blue Devils ever.

[Kedsy]

Parker defended Ellis for much of the game, and Ellis led all scorers with 24 shooting 9-13. Ellis also played 35 minutes and had only 2 fouls, FWIW.

Actually Ellis did not lead all scorers. Jabari did, dropping 27... on Ellis.

[nmduke2001]

Asked what grade he would give himself for the Kansas game, Jabari chose a C-. Pretty refreshing how badly this kid wants to win and improve.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/jabari-parker-andrew-wiggins-julius-randle/?eref=sihp

[the_grad_student]

I think these responses might be getting the right answers but with the wrong justifications. Talent has nothing to do with championships, career accomplishments (Duke or NBA) or level of competition. It's just the raw, innate ability. A more fair comparison is Jabari now vs. any other Duke player 2 games into their career. Grant Hill was a bit before my time, so I'll defer to others on this one. The most striking thing about Kyrie was that he not only had the skills to dominate with speed, touch, decision-making, and execution, but he made the entire offense click - a rare feat so early in a season. Let's remember that the '10-'11 season was a major change in offensive style (Scheyer->Kyrie; slow->fast) and an adjustment period would be absolutely expected. At this point, Jabari has the talent to dominate games for sure, but I don't think any of us would say he has the ability to instantly create an offensive flow that makes the other 4 on the floor better like Kyrie.

Sure, they play different positions. I'd give the edge to Kyrie right now because as a PG, running an entire offense has a slightly higher degree of difficulty and requires a broader skill set.

[cato]

Asked what grade he would give himself for the Kansas game, Jabari chose a C-. Pretty refreshing how badly this kid wants to win and improve.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131113/jabari-parker-andrew-wiggins-julius-randle/?eref=sihp

Okay, after reading that article, I give Parker a shot. It's easy to forget just how great Grant Hill was, but he almost won a third championship with a non-championship caliber supporting cast. I have often wondered if Duke would ever have a player like Grant again.*

But with that self-assessment and reports of his drive, I have to imagine he will catch up on D and, provided he enjoys good health, could catch Grant one day.


* Actually, we all know the answer to this is "no," since we had Grant for four years. But you know what I mean.

[CajunDevil]

So, after watching Jabari's first two games at Duke and several of his high school games, I think we are witnessing a unique talent. During the first half I felt like I was watching vintage Larry Bird performance. His step-back three is like watching Kevin Durant. His post offense is Carmelo-esque. His alley oop was pure Grant Hill. Jabari's court vision - his drive and kick to Sheed for the 1st half corner three was LeBron-esque.

One of the most impressive things so far Jabari's footwork. I'm as amazed at his footwork as I was at Kyrie's handles as a Freshman. Just focus on how JP jab steps then rises for his jumper, or pivots in the post for his fadeaway J. Even his euro(ish)-step was impressive.

Many on this board will say this is simply hyperbole or whatever... so be it. The kid is great! He is the most complete basketball player Duke's ever had as a Freshman and the most talented overall, imho. Let's take a quick look at the top two contenders, imo:

Grant Hill - at this point in his Freshman year Grant had no jumper. In fact, his jumper was a weak link in his game until a few years into his NBA career, and even then it wasn't a thing of beauty. Was Grant better defensively? Maybe, maybe not? Given the game plan of fronting KU's bigs, Jabari did a respectable job getting two steals and a block, and the most defensive rebs of anyone in the game. Grant in '94 vs. Jabari as a Freshman is a better comparison, but at this point, Freshman GH vs Freshman JP it's not close, imo.

Kyrie Irving - Kyrie is JP's closest competition, in terms of being the best player at this stage of his Duke career. Kyrie has the best handles in the NBA now and had amazing handles his Freshman year, as he dominated MSU early on. However, I think JP's size and ability to go inside/out gives him the edge - but it's always hard to compare different positions.

[moonpie23]

LOVE me some jabari parker and i'm THRILLED that he came to duke….


but, seriously 10 for 10 for 10….. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3_IT622Sbc)

[duke96]

So do those who thought Jabari was not in the same league as our greatest talents still feel that way? I think the kid is sublime and has the most complete offensive game we've had in a Duke uniform - at this stage, at a minimum. Can't wait to see more.

[kAzE]

So do those who thought Jabari was not in the same league as our greatest talents still feel that way? I think the kid is sublime and has the most complete offensive game we've had in a Duke uniform - at this stage, at a minimum. Can't wait to see more.

Current kAzE duke player full career to date + career potential power rankings:

1. Grant Hill
2. Kyrie Irving
3. Jabari Parker
4. Elton Brand
5. Christian Laettner
6. Jeff Mullins
7. Luol Deng
8. Carlos Boozer
9. Shane Battier
10. Corey Maggette

Honorable Mentions: Johnny Dawkins, J.J. Redick and Jason Williams

Would take a full season of this for Parker to sneak up on Irving, but he has been magnificent thus far.

[NYBri]

The height on his jump shot release is amazing...and the touch is sublime.

The absolute real deal.

[Karl Beem]

Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?

From what I have seen so far, I think this is likely. Obviously this is rarified air, to say the least.

Thoughts?

You posted this after JP had played all of 2 games!?!

[duke96]

You posted this after JP had played all of 2 games!?!

Yep. And?

[Mike Corey]

Just trying to enjoy watching Jabari Parker as a Blue Devil as much as I can, while I can.

He is absolutely sensational. His repertoire is superseded only by the fluidity with which he plays.

[Faustus]

I rather enjoyed Bob Knight during the game tonight, after a particularly impressive turnaround 2 from Parker, pause for a couple of seconds and then say very quietly," .... He's really good."

[duke96]

Just trying to enjoy watching Jabari Parker as a Blue Devil as much as I can, while I can.

He is absolutely sensational. His repertoire is superseded only by the fluidity with which he plays.

Exactly. Plus, he just seems so relaxed and at ease out there. Can dial it up when he needs to, lays back when it's best for the rest of the team. Never seems to force anything. Seems like he's on another level relative to his surroundings...

[Kedsy]

So do those who thought Jabari was not in the same league as our greatest talents still feel that way? I think the kid is sublime and has the most complete offensive game we've had in a Duke uniform - at this stage, at a minimum. Can't wait to see more.

I feel that we've only seen him play 7 games. He's clearly a very good offensive player. I'm anxious to see if and/or when his defense catches up.

[KandG]

People should check the twitter timeline of former Chicago Bulls scout Clarence Gaines (the son of coach "Big House" Gaines) from earlier tonight: basically says Jabari is a legitimate superstar and could be possibly one of the best number 1 picks ever in the NBA. Shared about ten tweets expanding on how impressed he is with him. Some interesting insights, and he's generally not prone to hyperbole.

Clarence Gaines ‏@ClarenceGaines2 1h
Jabari Parker is the total package - If I'm @NBA team I'm praying for #1 pick - Will be one of the best #1 picks ever - Incredible talent.

[AAA1980]

His offensive reportoire kind of reminds me of Melo..Hes basically Melo if Melo was unselfish..

[JPtheGame]

Clarence Gaines ‏@ClarenceGaines2 1h
Jabari Parker is the total package - If I'm @NBA team I'm praying for #1 pick - Will be one of the best #1 picks ever - Incredible talent.

If Im an NBA team, Im worried about getting that number 1 pick a year too early:
http://zagsblog.com/articles/dukes-parker-can-envision-teaming-with-okafor-next-season/

[roywhite]

Jabari Parker puts on first of likely many great performances at MSG (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/24293106/jabari-parker-puts-on-first-of-likely-many-great-performances-at-msg)

Matt Norlander from CBS is very impressed with Jabari Parker.


He just looks different than everyone else on the floor. And I'm not talking about a specific game. He is unalike anyone else in college basketball this year and in most years.

It's not just the way he plays, but how he looks and moves. If that sounds romantic, forgive me, but I'm in love with the way Jabari Parker makes himself and Duke appear this season. The body type, which seems to betray the realism of his talent. The style, which is not groundbreaking yet still seems original. The IQ, knwoing you'll find him on any given offensive play in the right place. He can be just about anywhere inside 30 feet and it looks like he's already staked claim to that spot. It's his.


I agree with the writer; Jabari is a very special talent, and your eyes are drawn to him on the court.

[arnie]

If Im an NBA team, Im worried about getting that number 1 pick a year too early:
http://zagsblog.com/articles/dukes-parker-can-envision-teaming-with-okafor-next-season/

Not only is Parker the best freshman in Duke history, I believe he could come back. The guy is so mature and seems to see his future through a different lens. Appreciating college life for a couple of years and waiting on a huge payday is a fair option. The quality of his life will not be affected if makes $200 mil as opposed to $220 mil. If he does come back with the incoming frosh coupled with experienced guards, we should be at the 99 level.

[NYBri]

I feel that we've only seen him play 7 games. He's clearly a very good offensive player. I'm anxious to see if and/or when his defense catches up.

I thought we saw some of that last night. Whenever there was a key rebound, switch, or forced 'Bama shot, Number 1 was right there.

We are all blessed to watch this guy play with DUKE on his uniform. I have a feeling ghost is going to be a season to remember for that alone.

No foot injuries, please.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

So do those who thought Jabari was not in the same league as our greatest talents still feel that way? I think the kid is sublime and has the most complete offensive game we've had in a Duke uniform - at this stage, at a minimum. Can't wait to see more.

I'd love to see who suggested that Parker is "not in the same league" - I think folks were/are waiting for a slightly more full picture of a 18 year old's career than two games or seven games.

He's clearly a special player with near unlimited potential. Let's enjoy this season (and hopefully next!) and see where things fall. It's going to be fun watching him and this team.

Go Duke!

[_Gary]

Anyone that tries to tell me the kid isn't even in the conversation of greatest Dukies of all time - not even in the conversation - is smoking something. Is the sample size small? Sure it is. So was Kyrie's, but no one is denying he was one of the best ever to put on a Blue Devil uniform. Offensively, I can't think of another player that was more polished right out of the gate unless it was Kyrie. Truth be told, we've had two of the best ever to play for us in just the last few years with Jabari and Kyrie. Both are superstars, period. Jabari reminds me of Paul Pierce a lot. I know that's high company, but that's who I think of when I watch him play.

Let's enjoy him while we can. He's very special.

[bob blue devil]

I'd love to see who suggested that Parker is "not in the same league" - I think folks were/are waiting for a slightly more full picture of a 18 year old's career than two games or seven games.

He's clearly a special player with near unlimited potential. Let's enjoy this season (and hopefully next!) and see where things fall. It's going to be fun watching him and this team.

Go Duke!

Agree with this. duke96 is tossing out a straw man argument with a side of told you so - behave!

Jabari's offensive skill set is obviously the best i've recently seen at duke. he's a man among boys in the ncaa.
with respect to the greatest professional career having worn a duke jersey question, the same questions remain:
- how will this skill set translate against nba talent - will he be in the argument for MVP
- can he develop an elite (not just serviceable) defensive skill set
based on what i've seen, i'll be disappointed if his career doesn't include a few all star appearances, which would put him in exclusive company among duke alums.

[duke96]

Agree with this. duke96 is tossing out a straw man argument with a side of told you so - behave!

Jabari's offensive skill set is obviously the best i've recently seen at duke. he's a man among boys in the ncaa.
with respect to the greatest professional career having worn a duke jersey question, the same questions remain:
- how will this skill set translate against nba talent - will he be in the argument for MVP
- can he develop an elite (not just serviceable) defensive skill set
based on what i've seen, i'll be disappointed if his career doesn't include a few all star appearances, which would put him in exclusive company among duke alums.

Well, there were at least a few suggestions that anyone who saw Grant Hill play should dare not suggest that Jabari could well end up being as good or even better. Anyhow I think there is now violent agreement - kid's amazing, could be our most talented ever, and we are privileged to be able to watch him play in duke blue for at least one year. Almost seems shameful to wish for two, but that team would be something to behold. Agree that he seems to be playing better defense. Given our size issues and current status of our D, I think in particlar his continued improvement on the defensive end will be critical for a strong tourney run.

[bob blue devil]

Well, there were at least a few suggestions that anyone who saw Grant Hill play should dare not suggest that Jabari could well end up being as good or even better.

interesting. could you refresh my memory by quoting people from this thread saying that? i only remember people taking umbrage to the idea jabari would ever accomplish as much at duke as grant did, but my memory is awful. thanks!

[moonpie23]

i think it's OBVIOUS that he's in the same league, but……again….let me remind you..


i still wanna see him go 10 for 10 PLUS ten when ALL the chips are on the table for the CHEESE….

[slower]

Current kAzE duke player full career to date + career potential power rankings:

1. Grant Hill
2. Kyrie Irving
3. Jabari Parker
4. Elton Brand
5. Christian Laettner
6. Jeff Mullins
7. Luol Deng
8. Carlos Boozer
9. Shane Battier
10. Corey Maggette

Honorable Mentions: Johnny Dawkins, J.J. Redick and Jason Williams

Would take a full season of this for Parker to sneak up on Irving, but he has been magnificent thus far.

Jwill NOT in the Top 10, and BEHIND Maggette and Boozer? Dear God, are you serious?

Oh wait - I guess I see your specific criteria for your list. That is, I THINK I understand what you're saying - because otherwise...

[slower]

Anyone that tries to tell me the kid isn't even in the conversation of greatest Dukies of all time - not even in the conversation - is smoking something. Is the sample size small? Sure it is. So was Kyrie's, but no one is denying he was one of the best ever to put on a Blue Devil uniform. Offensively, I can't think of another player that was more polished right out of the gate unless it was Kyrie. Truth be told, we've had two of the best ever to play for us in just the last few years with Jabari and Kyrie. Both are superstars, period. Jabari reminds me of Paul Pierce a lot. I know that's high company, but that's who I think of when I watch him play.

Let's enjoy him while we can. He's very special.

Agreed. Even after 7 games, it's obvious (to me, at least) that Jabari DOES belong in the conversation with Grant. And the comparison with Pierce is apt, except that Jabari oozes class, unlike Pierce, who is a punk and highly unlikeable.

I mean, you could see it last night. Jabari knew that he was unstoppable. Personally, my pulse rate spikes every time he gets the ball, because I expect something great or memorable to happen - EVERY TIME HE TOUCHES THE BALL.

Barring injury, the sky seems to be the limit for him.

[CajunDevil]

Jabari is the best Freshman I've ever seen... at Duke or anywhere else. People can harp on a defensive lapse here and there... but that is being corrected with K's coaching. However, on the offensive end, I haven't seen a better Freshman in the 33 years I've been watching basketball. He is soooo much more skilled as a Frosh than Grant was that it's not close, imo. Kyrie, Durant and Chris Jackson (Mahmoud Abdul Rauf) are the only other similarly skilled Frosh I've seen. However, Jabari is a more complete player than them.

[BobbyFan]

Grant Hill - at this point in his Freshman year Grant had no jumper. In fact, his jumper was a weak link in his game until a few years into his NBA career, and even then it wasn't a thing of beauty. Grant in '94 vs. Jabari as a Freshman is a better comparison, but at this point, Freshman GH vs Freshman JP it's not close, imo.

There is little doubt that Jabari will have a greater impact than Grant did in his freshman season. But there are a few factors to consider in making such a comparison.

First, college freshman are now far more physically ready and mature in their games and closer to their eventual peak, and we should therefore temper expectations with regards to their career trajectory. For instance, Paul Pierce, who is an excellent comparison for Jabari, wasn't nearly as sound a freshman as Jabari is. Even Michael Beasley had far greater impact than Grant did as a freshman. How much better has Kyrie gotten since his spectacular freshman season?

Second, Jabari and Grant were in different situations as Grant was joining a team that already had its identity with an All-American big man and an emerging star PG. Even if we attempt to equalize for opportunity, I still suspect that Jabari would still have the edge as a freshman, but the difference isn't much.


Was Grant better defensively? Maybe, maybe not?

Grant was better defensively as a freshman. There is no maybe here.

[johnb]

I was at the game last night.

After watching Jabari make smoothly great plays on two consecutive offensive series, I was watching him away from the ball. He positioned himself for a couple of beats out of bounds, behind the basket, away from the ball. He did breeze back inbounds, but I think he had it in mind that the other four guys needed to be involved, and he was going to make that involvement necessary.

As in other such tournaments, the crowd was mixed enough that there wasn't much noise, but on occasion after occasion, he did things that prompted a collective gasp.

Last time I saw that was in MSG watching Kyrie just before he injured his toe.

I'm not superstitious, btw.

While he's not a once in a generation talent (unless you're a lizard or butterfly), he definitely has the look of a Kyrie, Grant, Johnny D, or Elton, guys who get the job done in ways that are really singular. Even Laettner, who was as clutch as it gets, didn't--to me--have that same otherworldly talent.

I recall reading that some of our guys have bought injury insurance when they returned to college when they could have been lottery picks. I think the premiums are deferred until the paychecks start coming in. Is that still a possibility?

[freshmanjs]

I was at the game last night.

After watching Jabari make smoothly great plays on two consecutive offensive series, I was watching him away from the ball. He positioned himself for a couple of beats out of bounds, behind the basket, away from the ball. He did breeze back inbounds, but I think he had it in mind that the other four guys needed to be involved, and he was going to make that involvement necessary.

As in other such tournaments, the crowd was mixed enough that there wasn't much noise, but on occasion after occasion, he did things that prompted a collective gasp.

Last time I saw that was in MSG watching Kyrie just before he injured his toe.

I'm not superstitious, btw.

While he's not a once in a generation talent (unless you're a lizard or butterfly), he definitely has the look of a Kyrie, Grant, Johnny D, or Elton, guys who get the job done in ways that are really singular. Even Laettner, who was as clutch as it gets, didn't--to me--have that same otherworldly talent.

I recall reading that some of our guys have bought injury insurance when they returned to college when they could have been lottery picks. I think the premiums are deferred until the paychecks start coming in. Is that still a possibility?

Kyrie injured his toe at the Meadowlands. He never played for Duke at MSG.

[CajunDevil]

Grant was better defensively as a freshman. There is no maybe here.

To your point, Jabari has much more responsibility on the defensive end, not to mention the offensive end, than Grant did as a Frosh. Jabari is the primary rim protector, post defender and rebounder despite not having a lot of help in terms of big bodies on the defensive end. I'd say Grant is probably a better defender at this point, but let's see at the end of the year after Jabari's had a year of coaching with K.

[NYBri]

To your point, Jabari has much more responsibility on the defensive end, not to mention the offensive end, than Grant did as a Frosh. Jabari is the primary rim protector, post defender and rebounder despite not having a lot of help in terms of big bodies on the defensive end. I'd say Grant is probably a better defender at this point, but let's see at the end of the year after Jabari's had a year of coaching with K.

And, alas, more than likely, we will only have one year of Jabari in a DUKE uni. Grant had four. sigh.

[Grey Devil]

And, alas, more than likely, we will only have one year of Jabari in a DUKE uni. Grant had four. sigh.

I fear that you are probably right, but hoping that Jabari will want to stick around for one more year to get this second National Championship…

:D

Grey Devil

[BD80]

I fear that you are probably right, but hoping that Jabari will want to stick around for one more year to get this second National Championship…

:D

Grey Devil

The logical extension of that line of reasoning is that he would stay for 4!

[Kedsy]

Well, there were at least a few suggestions that anyone who saw Grant Hill play should dare not suggest that Jabari could well end up being as good or even better. Anyhow I think there is now violent agreement - kid's amazing, could be our most talented ever, and we are privileged to be able to watch him play in duke blue for at least one year. Almost seems shameful to wish for two, but that team would be something to behold. Agree that he seems to be playing better defense. Given our size issues and current status of our D, I think in particlar his continued improvement on the defensive end will be critical for a strong tourney run.

I believe people were arguing against your statment that Jabari was likely to be the best Duke player ever, after watching him play two games, when Grant Hill was a seven-time All Star. There's a big difference between suggesting something is possible and asserting that it is likely.

[duke96]

I believe people were arguing against your statment that Jabari was likely to be the best Duke player ever, after watching him play two games, when Grant Hill was a seven-time All Star. There's a big difference between suggesting something is possible and asserting that it is likely.

Yep some, like you, did. And others suggested he isn't even close to Grant, or that Christian's amazing game against Kentucky puts him in a different league. I thought then and think now that it is pretty likely that Jabari will turn out to have been our greatest talent, as I initially said. Based on some of the comments in this thread and the quoted links from media etc, there seem to be some pretty well informed people that are coming around to this view. This is of course a matter of opinion even when all the facts are in. Time will tell.

[duke80]

I believe people were arguing against your statment that Jabari was likely to be the best Duke player ever, after watching him play two games, when Grant Hill was a seven-time All Star. There's a big difference between suggesting something is possible and asserting that it is likely.

I think Jabari is the best freshman we have had, not the best player, as that needs to play out.
Kyrie could be argued as well. Observation: Kyrie knew one speed and that was full out. Jabari has a
poise and naturalness I have not seen in but a few other players. Dare I say his game is artistic.
As Will Smith said in MIB, "You know the difference between me and you? I make this look good."

[Jarhead]

... I recall reading that some of our guys have bought injury insurance when they returned to college when they could have been lottery picks. I think the premiums are deferred until the paychecks start coming in. Is that still a possibility?
On its face, it would seem to be a benefit not available to all students. On the other hand, I can't imagine any insurance company seeing profit in such an insurance scheme. They need premiums paid by bunches of people to cover the claims risk. By the way, who decides that they could have been a lottery pick.

[MChambers]

On its face, it would seem to be a benefit not available to all students. On the other hand, I can't imagine any insurance company seeing profit in such an insurance scheme. They need premiums paid by bunches of people to cover the claims risk. By the way, who decides that they could have been a lottery pick.
Most students don't have such an amazingly lucrative future that could be jeopardized by a single event. Anyway, the NCAA approved it, in the past. Don't know if it's still done.

[Dukehky]

Jabari is the best Freshman I've ever seen... at Duke or anywhere else. People can harp on a defensive lapse here and there... but that is being corrected with K's coaching. However, on the offensive end, I haven't seen a better Freshman in the 33 years I've been watching basketball. He is soooo much more skilled as a Frosh than Grant was that it's not close, imo. Kyrie, Durant and Chris Jackson (Mahmoud Abdul Rauf) are the only other similarly skilled Frosh I've seen. However, Jabari is a more complete player than them.

I'm giving this one to Durant. Later in the year it may be different. As of right now I think Durant is the best freshman player of all time. There is the caveat that freshman didn't used to be able to play, hence why I didn't say first year player. Freshman. He got all but 2 votes for AP POY. Maybe Jabari can do the same, but right now it's premature to say he's already better than Durant. Even in the future, I think JP will be an NBA star, but I'm not sure he's going to be one of the 2 best players in the world, maybe he could be, I don't know, but Durant IS the second best player in the world right now.

I don't like Aaron Gordon, and I really hope Jabari tears him up tomorrow...

[79-77]

i think it's OBVIOUS that he's in the same league, but……again….let me remind you..


i still wanna see him go 10 for 10 PLUS ten when ALL the chips are on the table for the CHEESE….

This.




Grant was better defensively as a freshman. There is no maybe here.

And this.

Great discussion in this thread. I find the various views on how people evaluate "best Duke player of all time" quite interesting.

FWIW, here's mine: if I were putting together a Duke team for a single ACC-tournament-plus-NCAA-tournament run, who do I want in my starting 5, based solely on what I saw from each player when he played at Duke? So I won't necessarily eliminate a one-and-done guy, but he needs to really have delivered during his Duke tenure -- especially in the NCAAs. That's why I take Hurley over Kyrie, Battier over Parker and Laettner over everyone.

My starting 5:

Hurley
Hill
Laettner
Battier
Brand

Bench:

Jason Williams
Kyrie
Dawkins
Parker
Ferry

Now, it's quite possible that Parker plays well enough this year, and especially (hopefully!) in March, to muscle into the starting 5. He seems like he's good enough to pull it off (and I'll be shocked if he doesn't turn pro after this year, btw). But look at that team -- that's a pretty tall order.

[moonpie23]

so, it's decided then…..he'll need to stay another year to prove he was the best freshman…..


sounds legit...:cool:

[kAzE]

Jwill NOT in the Top 10, and BEHIND Maggette and Boozer? Dear God, are you serious?

Oh wait - I guess I see your specific criteria for your list. That is, I THINK I understand what you're saying - because otherwise...

Yes, obviously, J-Will is in the top 3 if you only factor his accomplishments at Duke, and Laettner would be #1, no questions asked. My rankings are more of a big picture, entire basketball career achievement, and for the younger guys, includes what I think they will have accomplished when their entire career is over, and we can compare that against the older guys. J-Will's playing career unfortunately ended just 2 years into his stint in the NBA, which is why he did not make the top 10. Jabari is making a strong case for the #2 spot on this list, though he and Kyrie both have a LONG way to go defensively before they can approach Mr. Hill.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Fine, I'll play along...

Jabari is pretty good I guess, but for my money the best Duke player ever is Justise Winslow.

I dare you to prove me wrong,

[DukieInBrasil]

Fine, I'll play along...

Jabari is pretty good I guess, but for my money the best Duke player ever is Justise Winslow.

I dare you to prove me wrong,

my money's on that 4 yr old kid who was in some video shooting toy baskets better than Singler. Not that we've even started recruiting him yet, but he's the best Duke player ever.

[BD80]

Fine, I'll play along...

Jabari is pretty good I guess, but for my money the best Duke player ever is Justise Winslow.

I dare you to prove me wrong,


my money's on that 4 yr old kid who was in some video shooting toy baskets better than Singler. Not that we've even started recruiting him yet, but he's the best Duke player ever.

Shelden and Candace's yet to be born male child

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Shelden and Candace's yet to be born male child

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!

[oldnavy]

I don't know if he is the best, but he is pretty darn good!

He may be the best player in the country this year when it is all said and done.

Coach Knight's comment on his turn around fader, "That was pretty good" was classic...

So, all we need is for him to be NPOY and we win the title and another jersey goes up in CIS!

[DukieInBrasil]

I don't know if he is the best, but he is pretty darn good!

He may be the best player in the country this year when it is all said and done.

Coach Knight's comment on his turn around fader, "That was pretty good" was classic...

So, all we need is for him to be NPOY and we win the title and another jersey goes up in CIS!

As much as it would be awesome for both of those to happen, his jersey won't go up unless he graduates. Even if he eventually did graduate by fulfilling coursework after leaving, i'm not sure there's a precedent for jersey retirement without playing 4 years.

[subzero02]

As much as it would be awesome for both of those to happen, his jersey won't go up unless he graduates. Even if he eventually did graduate by fulfilling coursework after leaving, i'm not sure there's a precedent for jersey retirement without playing 4 years.

Jason Williams would beg to differ

[uh_no]

Jason Williams would beg to differ

fair point, but he also did graduate when he left....now if jabari finished his coursework and graduated THIS year, i might be convinced :D

[duke96]

fair point, but he also did graduate when he left....now if jabari finished his coursework and graduated THIS year, i might be convinced :D

Might be possible at UNC.

[BD80]

Might be possible at UNC.

Not so sure, they're pretty strict about prerequisites. There are certain courses you have to fail to attend before you can fail to attend upper level courses.

[oldnavy]

Might be possible at UNC.

My jersey is in the rafters at UNC!

Not sure how they would handle a OAD NPOY with a NC.... but one can dream.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Well, after last night's performance against AZ, I'm sure we can go ahead and lock this thread, right? Clearly, he's not the greatest to ever put on a Duke uniform. Let's go ahead and let Justise Winslow take the crown.

/Joking, of course
//Makes as much sense as calling him the best after two games though

GO DUKE

[roywhite]

Some highlights from Duke Blue Planet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MXHCLtKM9c&feature=youtu.be)

I thought he could be very good from the start, and he's exceeded my own expectations.

It's a treat to watch this young man play basketball, and double delicious that he plays for Duke.

[AtlDuke72]

Fine, I'll play along...

Jabari is pretty good I guess, but for my money the best Duke player ever is Justise Winslow.

I dare you to prove me wrong,

Winslow, Parker, Irving, Redick, Battier Hill, Brand, Laettner, Ferry, Dawkins, Gminski, Heyman . . . Take your pick as the best ever - I pick Parker, but hope you are right with Winslow !

[AtlDuke72]

Winslow, Parker, Irving, Redick, Battier, Williams, Hill, Brand, Laettner, Ferry, Dawkins, Gminski, Heyman . . . Take your pick as the best ever - I pick Parker, but hope you are right with Winslow !

In trying to judge where Parker fits in, I think you should consider that almost all of the other guys on this list had to play as freshman against super star juniors and seniors . The players today who can challenge him are already in the NBA. I still think he may be the best player ever at Duke and I am talking about as a college player and not what might happen in the pros. One great college player that had a similar body type and shooting ability as Jabari was Glenn Robinson of Purdue. Grant Hill snuffed Robinson in the NCAA game in Knoxville in 1994 the year in which Grant almost carried the Devils all the way. Considering what happened in 1995 that was an amazing accomplishment. I would crown Grant Hill as the best ever. (Apologies to Dick Groat for not having him on my list since I never had a chance to see him play. )

[WillJ]

Jabari may or may not be the best Duke player ever, but I'm pretty sure he'll be the best Mormon player so far....Danny Ainge would seem to be the toughest competition. I find this particularly pleasing in that one of my dearest friends is a basketball-loving, Mormon UNC fan and he and his sons find the cognitive dissonance overwhelming - they hate Duke but love Jabari. Jabari is the best thing that's ever happened to our relationship:). Really, if there were one thing I would ask for Christmas (or other applicable holiday) for all Duke fans, it would be to have a good friend who's a Mormon UNC fan.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Jabari may or may not be the best Duke player ever, but I'm pretty sure he'll be the best Mormon player so far....Danny Ainge would seem to be the toughest competition. I find this particularly pleasing in that one of my dearest friends is a basketball-loving, Mormon UNC fan and he and his sons find the cognitive dissonance overwhelming - they hate Duke but love Jabari. Jabari is the best thing that's ever happened to our relationship:). Really, if there were one thing I would ask for Christmas (or other applicable holiday) for all Duke fans, it would be to have a good friend who's a Mormon UNC fan.

Better than Matt Christensen?

[Kedsy]

Personally I think if you're talking about the best Duke player ever, it's silly to try to judge 12 games on the one hand vs. three or four years on most of the others. I also don't think it's right to ignore defense (an important facet of the game at which almost all of the "competitors" excelled more than Jabari). Having said all that, it's getting to the point where Jabari looks like he'll probably have the best freshman season in Duke history. And that's pretty impressive in its own right.

[WillJ]

Better than Matt Christensen?

Yes, and better than Chris Burgess, too:).

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

What better to discuss in the off-season...

Anyone still believe that Jabari Parker is the most talented Duke player ever?

[lotusland]

What better to discuss in the off-season...

Anyone still believe that Jabari Parker is the most talented Duke player ever?

I either missed this thread back in November or I've forgotten it. First of all I guess the answer depends on how you define talented. I'd say Jabari is one of the best freshman players that I have seen at Duke but not clearly the best. Very good arguments could be made for others including Grant. As far best all time contributors, there is no way any player can accomplish that in 1-year. Parker is very talented and a good kid. I wish him well in the league and in life and I'm glad he came to Duke although I wish he could have stayed longer and that the team could have achieved a little more while he was here. I think it's possible that Parker, if he avoids injury, may have the best pro career of all but he's got some work to do.

[yancem]

What better to discuss in the off-season...

Anyone still believe that Jabari Parker is the most talented Duke player ever?

I think that it is reasonable to argue that he had the best freshman season of any Duke player (although Dawkins, J. Williams and Deng were fairly close and if you say first season, Heyman and Mullins would outright disagree). Most talented is a different metric though. I can't comment too well on pre K Duke because I was either too young to make any knowledgeable assessment or wasn't born. In the K era I would say the players in the running are Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Hurley Hill, Brand, Maggette (not overwhelming stats on a great team but oh what could have been if he stayed), Battier, J. Williams, Boozer, Deng, Redick, S. Williams, Singler, Irving, and Parker. Even with injuries, Hill had the best overall college and nba career and to me is probably the most naturally gifted. If Brand and J. Williams hadn't gotten hurt, who knows, they both had the talent to overtake Hill. I also think that if Irving stays healthy and can get into a better team situation could also surpass Hill. I'm not sure I'm ready to put Parker at the level of Hill, Brand, J. Williams and Irving yet because I haven't seen him go up against nba level talent yet but I think that if he works on his defense and gets his outside shot back to where it was early in last season then he could end up on top. The thing is, is that it is too early to tell. Like I said I think a good case can be made for him having the best freshman season but what would have his numbers looked like if he was playing with a senior Irving and junior Rivers? Remember that Hill came onto a team that played in the title game the year before and returned Laettner, Hurley, Davis and T. Hill. Different time, different situation.

[Billy Dat]

yancem, I think you laid out a solid rationale for your rankings.

I tend to define best talent as the ideal combination of skill, athleticism and game sense on both sides of the ball. I leave drive, fire and effort out of the definition simply because there is so often a comparison of one players talent vs another's effort. While I believe that effort/drive/fire is a talent, I will separate the two for this exercise. Also, I am considering the totality of a players career, I am not limiting it to what they did at Duke)

I think its hard to argue, by my specs, that Grant is the most talented player ever to come from Duke. He was a killer on both sides of the ball and would have been a Hall of Famer had he not lost a huge chunk of his career to injury.

Jabari's defense really limits his ranking. Offensively, he's right up there. As a scorer, he's in the Jason Williams and Kyrie class as far as being savant-like. Redick was right with those guys, I rank him a spec lower because he didn't really have an evolved dribble drive game. Ferry was also an awesome offensive force. Boozer didn't really get a chance to unfurl his full offensive game in college, but he evolved into a lethal offensive player in the pros. Elton was 20/10 for the first 8-9 years of his NBA Career.

Defensively, you've got Shane and Luol as huge standouts that also have/had excellent pro careers. Shane was also, obviously, a player of the year in college.

So, I rank my Top 10 most talented to ever play at Duke as follows, right now with a huge injection of subjectivity and unknown assumed future improvement built in, with the right to change my mind at anytime:

1. Grant
2. Elton
3. Jason
4. Carlos
5. Shane
6. Luol
7. Kyrie
8. Jabari
9. Laettner
10. JJ

Note - I didn't watch Ferry as closely so I would be interested if anyone thinks he belongs in the top 10. Hurley is the on cusp, too. I think Shelden's NBA flame out really knocks him back in my estimation because it wasn't really injury plagued.

[SupaDave]

yancem, I think you laid out a solid rationale for your rankings.

I tend to define best talent as the ideal combination of skill, athleticism and game sense on both sides of the ball. I leave drive, fire and effort out of the definition simply because there is so often a comparison of one players talent vs another's effort. While I believe that effort/drive/fire is a talent, I will separate the two for this exercise. Also, I am considering the totality of a players career, I am not limiting it to what they did at Duke)

I think its hard to argue, by my specs, that Grant is the most talented player ever to come from Duke. He was a killer on both sides of the ball and would have been a Hall of Famer had he not lost a huge chunk of his career to injury.

Jabari's defense really limits his ranking. Offensively, he's right up there. As a scorer, he's in the Jason Williams and Kyrie class as far as being savant-like. Redick was right with those guys, I rank him a spec lower because he didn't really have an evolved dribble drive game. Ferry was also an awesome offensive force. Boozer didn't really get a chance to unfurl his full offensive game in college, but he evolved into a lethal offensive player in the pros. Elton was 20/10 for the first 8-9 years of his NBA Career.

Defensively, you've got Shane and Luol as huge standouts that also have/had excellent pro careers. Shane was also, obviously, a player of the year in college.

So, I rank my Top 10 most talented to ever play at Duke as follows, right now with a huge injection of subjectivity and unknown assumed future improvement built in, with the right to change my mind at anytime:

1. Grant
2. Elton
3. Jason
4. Carlos
5. Shane
6. Luol
7. Kyrie
8. Jabari
9. Laettner
10. JJ

Note - I didn't watch Ferry as closely so I would be interested if anyone thinks he belongs in the top 10. Hurley is the on cusp, too. I think Shelden's NBA flame out really knocks him back in my estimation because it wasn't really injury plagued.

No Gene Banks, Johnny Dawkins or Patrick Davidson? This list needs some re-thinking. :)

[dukelifer]

yancem, I think you laid out a solid rationale for your rankings.

I tend to define best talent as the ideal combination of skill, athleticism and game sense on both sides of the ball. I leave drive, fire and effort out of the definition simply because there is so often a comparison of one players talent vs another's effort. While I believe that effort/drive/fire is a talent, I will separate the two for this exercise. Also, I am considering the totality of a players career, I am not limiting it to what they did at Duke)

I think its hard to argue, by my specs, that Grant is the most talented player ever to come from Duke. He was a killer on both sides of the ball and would have been a Hall of Famer had he not lost a huge chunk of his career to injury.

Jabari's defense really limits his ranking. Offensively, he's right up there. As a scorer, he's in the Jason Williams and Kyrie class as far as being savant-like. Redick was right with those guys, I rank him a spec lower because he didn't really have an evolved dribble drive game. Ferry was also an awesome offensive force. Boozer didn't really get a chance to unfurl his full offensive game in college, but he evolved into a lethal offensive player in the pros. Elton was 20/10 for the first 8-9 years of his NBA Career.

Defensively, you've got Shane and Luol as huge standouts that also have/had excellent pro careers. Shane was also, obviously, a player of the year in college.

So, I rank my Top 10 most talented to ever play at Duke as follows, right now with a huge injection of subjectivity and unknown assumed future improvement built in, with the right to change my mind at anytime:

1. Grant
2. Elton
3. Jason
4. Carlos
5. Shane
6. Luol
7. Kyrie
8. Jabari
9. Laettner
10. JJ

Note - I didn't watch Ferry as closely so I would be interested if anyone thinks he belongs in the top 10. Hurley is the on cusp, too. I think Shelden's NBA flame out really knocks him back in my estimation because it wasn't really injury plagued.

Ferry was an outstanding college player. A lot depends on what you mean by talent. Maggette was a talent and had a very solid NBA career- averaging 16ppg over 14 seasons. That is close to Brand and Grant.

[Billy Dat]

Ferry was an outstanding college player. A lot depends on what you mean by talent. Maggette was a talent and had a very solid NBA career- averaging 16ppg over 14 seasons. That is close to Brand and Grant.

I'll admit to doing this quickly and forgetting Johnny. I did think about Maggette but he failed for me in terms of defense and game sense. From a pure athletic sense, he might be #1 on the list. His numbers may be close to Brand and Grant, but he was never All NBA, an All Star, and All Defensive Team selection, barely ever sniffed the playoffs.

Dawkins is tougher to quantify. I guess I'd be willing to knock JJ off of #10 and give that spot to Johnny. Again, I was basing it on the talent parameters I identified which were based heavily on play on both sides of the ball, but it easier to show "talent" on offense because there are a larger variety of ways to show off that talent.

[jimsumner]

I'll admit to doing this quickly and forgetting Johnny. I did think about Maggette but he failed for me in terms of defense and game sense. From a pure athletic sense, he might be #1 on the list. His numbers may be close to Brand and Grant, but he was never All NBA, an All Star, and All Defensive Team selection, barely ever sniffed the playoffs.

Dawkins is tougher to quantify. I guess I'd be willing to knock JJ off of #10 and give that spot to Johnny. Again, I was basing it on the talent parameters I identified which were based heavily on play on both sides of the ball, but it easier to show "talent" on offense because there are a larger variety of ways to show off that talent.

The only Duke freshman, IMO, to have a season that comes close to that of Parker, would be Gene Banks in 1978.

Dawkins would be the closest K comparison.

Danny Ferry averaged 5.9 ppg and 5.5 rpg as a freshman. The number one player in his prep class willing to take a backseat to a great senior class. Imagine that.

As a matter of fact, some of the best players in Duke history had fairly ordinary freshman seasons. None of Vince Taylor, Ferry, Christian Laettner (G'town notwithstanding), Battier, Dunleavy, Shelden Williams, G. Henderson, Nolan Smith, or Mason Plumlee averaged as many as 10 ppg as freshman and all became first-team All-ACC before their Duke careers ended. Bobby Hurley established an ACC record for turnovers, while shooting 35%.

I know, I know, those days are gone forever and I don't want to come across as get-off-my-lawn-you-kids. But watching truly great players develop over a career longer than a few months was a great pleasure. Something has been lost.

[Kedsy]

The only Duke freshman, IMO, to have a season that comes close to that of Parker, would be Gene Banks in 1978.

This got me thinking. If 1978 had been like now, Gene Banks would have almost certainly gone pro after his freshman season. We never would have seen him go mano-a-mano with Albert King in the ACC final in 1980 or hit the game-tying and game-winning shots his senior game against Carolina in 1981, two of the most exciting basketball games I ever had the privilege to witness.

You're right, Jim. Something has been lost.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?

From what I have seen so far, I think this is likely. Obviously this is rarified air, to say the least.

Thoughts?

My point in resurrecting this thread wasn't really to discuss where Parker's freshman season stacks up against other notable ones, but that back a few months ago people were discussing whether Parker was "the most talented player to have ever played for Duke" with no sense of irony.

Time may prove me wrong, but the idea that he might be that seems ludicrous at this point. Is he talented? Yes. Was he the most talented player on this team? Sure. But "most talented player to have ever played for Duke" feels like a far cry away. And he will not be adding any more chapters to his Duke legacy.

[sagegrouse]

The only Duke freshman, IMO, to have a season that comes close to that of Parker, would be Gene Banks in 1978.

Dawkins would be the closest K comparison.

Danny Ferry averaged 5.9 ppg and 5.5 rpg as a freshman. The number one player in his prep class willing to take a backseat to a great senior class. Imagine that.

As a matter of fact, some of the best players in Duke history had fairly ordinary freshman seasons. None of Vince Taylor, Ferry, Christian Laettner (G'town notwithstanding), Battier, Dunleavy, Shelden Williams, G. Henderson, Nolan Smith, or Mason Plumlee averaged as many as 10 ppg as freshman and all became first-team All-ACC before their Duke careers ended. Bobby Hurley established an ACC record for turnovers, while shooting 35%.

I know, I know, those days are gone forever and I don't want to come across as get-off-my-lawn-you-kids. But watching truly great players develop over a career longer than a few months was a great pleasure. Something has been lost.

Austin Rivers is the only other freshman to make first team All-ACC.

[jimsumner]

Austin Rivers is the only other freshman to make first team All-ACC.

Yep. But Dawkins was a freshman in an era when guys stuck around. Ralph Sampson, Sam Perkins, Thurl Bailey were all upper-classmen in 1983, JD's freshman season. Senior Tyler Zeller was ACC POY in 2012, Rivers' freshman season. Zeller was a nice player and all. But . . .

JD, FWIW, averaged about 3 ppg more as a freshman than Rivers and quite a few more assists. I would still maintain that he had a better freshman season than Rivers.

Or maybe I just like one of these guys more than the other.

[Dukehky]

I miss him so much already. He's the most talented player Duke has ever had IMO.

[greybeard]

Best ever? Not even close. Best players make their team better. Parker did not do that, except by his scoring. He was not a defender, nor did he create by doing the things that would make other guys potent on the offensive end--the pass that leads to the past that has a guy in iso, or a wide open 3, or an assist by the second guy. Parker was terrific inside but got a whole lot of shots, attempted dunks, blocked. Those often (occasionally) were 4-point plays. If Parker was "the best ever," Duke would have been better. Was he "the" go-to guy late in the clock? At the end of games? Did he make steals in the last minute or so that sealed it? Blocks? How often and how come? Nope. Wouldn't begin to know how to chose, or whom> It would not be Parker.

[Dukehky]

Best ever? Not even close. Best players make their team better. Parker did not do that, except by his scoring. He was not a defender, nor did he create by doing the things that would make other guys potent on the offensive end--the pass that leads to the past that has a guy in iso, or a wide open 3, or an assist by the second guy. Parker was terrific inside but got a whole lot of shots, attempted dunks, blocked. Those often (occasionally) were 4-point plays. If Parker was "the best ever," Duke would have been better. Was he "the" go-to guy late in the clock? At the end of games? Did he make steals in the last minute or so that sealed it? Blocks? How often and how come? Nope. Wouldn't begin to know how to chose, or whom> It would not be Parker.

I don't know if this was in response to my post, but I said most talented ever. Best Duke player ever is Laettner, and I'm sorry, but it's not even close.

Most Talented- Jabari
Most Dominating- Brand (the 99 season, you had to triple team him to contain him, that was just always my favorite team, so perhaps I'm biased. Dominating also has elements of physical dominance which removes most guards from the conversation, btw. This is the same way most people would say Shaq is the most dominant big man in NBA history)
Best- Laettner

[Duke95]

Jay Williams is the most talented player I have ever seen don a Duke uniform. I would rank the rest (top 6 or so) as:

2. Kyrie Irving
3. Jabari Parker
4. Grant Hill
5. Laettner
6. Brand

Overall as best college player it's Laettner followed by Jay Williams.

[Tappan Zee Devil]

Jay Williams is the most talented player I have ever seen don a Duke uniform. I would rank the rest (top 6 or so) as:

2. Kyrie Irving
3. Jabari Parker
4. Grant Hill
5. Laettner
6. Brand

Overall as best college player it's Laettner followed by Jay Williams.

You are leaving out 30 years or so before 1990 (which to be fair I guess you haven't seen - but are still there and include some superlative players).

[greybeard]

I don't know if this was in response to my post, but I said most talented ever. Best Duke player ever is Laettner, and I'm sorry, but it's not even close.

Most Talented- Jabari
Most Dominating- Brand (the 99 season, you had to triple team him to contain him, that was just always my favorite team, so perhaps I'm biased. Dominating also has elements of physical dominance which removes most guards from the conversation, btw. This is the same way most people would say Shaq is the most dominant big man in NBA history)
Best- Laettner

I'm not getting this at all. Laettner dominates Jabbari in just about every category. Defense, rebounding, and Clutch, it is not even close. Did Duke go to Jabbari at crunch times, late in the clock, during the close of close games? He has a so-so 3, can't come close to Laettner on a mid-range jump shot, as an inside scorer, passer, timing in moving down the lane to catch and score the ball, foul shooting, finishing off offensive rebounds, passing the ball, playing with dominance, Laettner was the nines. Jabbari, again not close. Scoring in the low post, Jabbari has some very creative moves; Laettner scored more consistently. Money; you CANNOT say that about Jabbari. Jabbari can take it from end to end; I'd like to see him do that against real athletes, quicker, stronger, faster; then I'd say that that is an asset. But, how often? As an on-ball defender, shot blocker who consistently altered shots that he did not block, and let's not forget passing and out-and-out toughness, foul shooting, and general all around play. Who made their teammates better better; Jabbari or Laettner. Laettner was on the dream team straight out of college, correct. Because he was outstanding in every respect.

Parker will go high, maybe number 1. I don't see it. I don't know who he will guard, who he can run with, who he can shoot with, and who he can get his shot off against with consistency against most starting forwards in the game. K featured him as a first, second, and third option; he often did not deliver. I don't see him being more talented than Laettner. As a basketball player that is.

[Bluegrassdevil1]

Mullins.

Fleischer by miles.

Deng.

Spanarkel by miles.

Marin.

Groat by miles.

Banks.

M. Lewis.

Verga.

Dawkins by miles.

Brand by miles.

Ferry by miles.

G. Hill by miles.

Heyman by miles.

J. Williams.

Redick.

Hurley by miles.

Laettner by miles.

Irving.

Parker had a very good offensive year, and he will likely have a great NBA career, but he is nowhere near the precipice of the Duke mountain.

Parker seems like a nice kid, a solid citizen and a glowing representative of Duke University, but he's just not as talented as some perceive.

[Dukehky]

Parker had a very good offensive year, and he will likely have a great NBA career, but he is nowhere near the precipice of the Duke mountain.

Parker seems like a nice kid, a solid citizen and a glowing representative of Duke University, but he's just not as talented as some perceive.

Most talented, what are we not getting about this. In terms of Duke career, no kidding he's not near the top of the list. But if you think that all of those people you listed are more talented basketball players than Jabari then you are letting the end of the season tarnish your memory of him or you are displeased by his leaving early or your vision of basketball talent is vastly different than most college and NBA basketball people. Lots of really talented players don't play good defense.

Also, I would bet anything than every player in the pre-K area would get torched by Jabari on the court. It's a different game now. So comparing talent between eras isn't going to work. You can compare careers, but not basketball skill. Bob Cousy stared at the court and dribbled only with his right hand and is considered one of the greatest point guards of all time, but you are crazy if you think he could play in the NBA today. Saying differently makes one sound like an old man sitting in his rocking chair who tells stories about how he walked to school in the snow uphill both ways with no shoes on.

[Dukehky]

I'm not getting this at all. Laettner dominates Jabbari in just about every category. Defense, rebounding, and Clutch, it is not even close. Did Duke go to Jabbari at crunch times, late in the clock, during the close of close games? He has a so-so 3, can't come close to Laettner on a mid-range jump shot, as an inside scorer, passer, timing in moving down the lane to catch and score the ball, foul shooting, finishing off offensive rebounds, passing the ball, playing with dominance, Laettner was the nines. Jabbari, again not close. Scoring in the low post, Jabbari has some very creative moves; Laettner scored more consistently. Money; you CANNOT say that about Jabbari. Jabbari can take it from end to end; I'd like to see him do that against real athletes, quicker, stronger, faster; then I'd say that that is an asset. But, how often? As an on-ball defender, shot blocker who consistently altered shots that he did not block, and let's not forget passing and out-and-out toughness, foul shooting, and general all around play. Who made their teammates better better; Jabbari or Laettner. Laettner was on the dream team straight out of college, correct. Because he was outstanding in every respect.

Parker will go high, maybe number 1. I don't see it. I don't know who he will guard, who he can run with, who he can shoot with, and who he can get his shot off against with consistency against most starting forwards in the game. K featured him as a first, second, and third option; he often did not deliver. I don't see him being more talented than Laettner. As a basketball player that is.

Can we spell his first name correctly please? Unless it's autocorrect or something in which case apologies. I feel very safe in saying that Jabari will have a better professional career than Christian Laettner did, and Laettner had a rock solid NBA career including an All Star appearance. Jabari is a much more dynamic player than Laettner was. Laettner also had one of the best PGs in NCAA history along with Grant Hill. Quinn Cook and Rodney Hood are nice, but they're certainly no Hurley or Hill, let's not forget this please. Look, Laettner is, IMO the best player in Duke history and the most legendary, but Jabari is going to be special at the next level. He will play the 3 and will be hidden on defense until he gets better at it.

[Kedsy]

Most talented, what are we not getting about this.

Speaking only for myself, what I'm not getting is what you mean by "most talented"? That he could win a one-on-one game? Jabari is a great and talented player, but he isn't the most athletic Duke player ever, he isn't the best shooter, he's a below-average defender, he wasn't a particularly efficient offensive player in his one year at Duke, and other Duke players have had better overall season stats. Jabari has been one of the most offensively versatile players at Duke, able to score in many ways, but I'm not sure he's the most offensively versatile. If it's an "I know it when I see it" thing, then I'm not sure how you can object to people disagreeing with your assessment.



Bob Cousy stared at the court and dribbled only with his right hand and is considered one of the greatest point guards of all time, but you are crazy if you think he could play in the NBA today. Saying differently makes one sound like an old man sitting in his rocking chair who tells stories about how he walked to school in the snow uphill both ways with no shoes on.

Watch some YouTube of Bob Cousy. Clearly the overall athletic ability in the NBA was different then, but the best players from the old days were still great players. Saying differently makes one sound like a young child who doesn't realize the world existed before he was born.

[dukelifer]

This got me thinking. If 1978 had been like now, Gene Banks would have almost certainly gone pro after his freshman season. We never would have seen him go mano-a-mano with Albert King in the ACC final in 1980 or hit the game-tying and game-winning shots his senior game against Carolina in 1981, two of the most exciting basketball games I ever had the privilege to witness.

You're right, Jim. Something has been lost.

A lot has been lost. I am a huge fan of college ball- but I am losing interest. I like to see kids and teams develop. I liked the rivalries where the players had a history against each other. The ACC had great great players-some that became all time great NBA players - like Jordan, Worthy and Hill. I do not believe 21 or 22 is too old to enter a man's league. There are a few transcendent high school players where the one and done rule makes no sense- but just a few. Gene Banks was Jabari 30+ years ago. He may have been better overall at the same stage and did his thing playing with and against better more experienced players. I doubt that any current player in the ACC will rank in the top 100. Jabari did his damage against a pretty weak ACC. Numbers do not tell the whole story.

[bob blue devil]

I'm amused by the substantial disregard of defensive ability when constructing the definition of basketball talent by some here. In my book, a "great" player who plays awful defense is probably overrated.

[BlueTeuf]

A lot has been lost. ........ Gene Banks was Jabari 30+ years ago. He may have been better overall at the same stage and did his thing playing with and against better more experienced players. I doubt that any current player in the ACC will rank in the top 100. Jabari did his damage against a pretty weak ACC. Numbers do not tell the whole story.

A superb point that really needs to be factored in here. Early entry has made the environment for freshman phenoms very hospitable. I'm intrigued to see what Jabari can accomplish in the NBA.

A few people whose acumen I really respect tell me he is a surefire all-star. I haven't reached that conclusion on my own observation.

I thoroughly appreciated Jabari as a representative of Duke - and will root for him as a pro. Personally, my gut says Paul Pierce upside - but Jabari has a of things to work on to get there.

[sagegrouse]

Oh, by the way, the Duke players who have played in NBA All-Star games include:

Mullins
Marin
Laettner
G. Hill
Elton
Carlos
Luol Deng
Kyrie Irving

Irving, I believe, got on via votes by fans, which should give him either an asterisk or double points. Grant was also voted in by fans, but he was in seven all-star games!

[Duvall]

Irving, I believe, got on via votes by fans, which should give him either an asterisk or double points. Grant was also voted in by fans, but he was in seven all-star games!

Irving has been both an All-Star reserve and an elected All-Star starter, so it's hard to see why an asterisk would be necessary.

[Edouble]

Irving, I believe, got on via votes by fans, which should give him either an asterisk or double points. Grant was also voted in by fans, but he was in seven all-star games!

You could just bold his name, for winning All-Star MVP.

[dukelifer]

A superb point that really needs to be factored in here. Early entry has made the environment for freshman phenoms very hospitable. I'm intrigued to see what Jabari can accomplish in the NBA.

A few people whose acumen I really respect tell me he is a surefire all-star. I haven't reached that conclusion on my own observation.

I thoroughly appreciated Jabari as a representative of Duke - and will root for him as a pro. Personally, my gut says Paul Pierce upside - but Jabari has a of things to work on to get there.

He will need to become a workout machine. Needs too shoot much better- needs much better conditioning an will need to work on his defense. That is a lot. Most great NBA players start their career with one thing that they do well. That allows them to gain confidence and settle in. Jabari is a solid player and has a great base to work from. But his shooting is spotty - is not an explosive driver and and struggles against bigger players. But at this point - he will need to work really hard to be among the best players in the league.

[duketaylor]

"Gene Banks was Jabari 30+ years ago."

I can't believe anybody would actually believe this. Sorry to say this, but Jabari is way more gifted than Tink ever was; he had more moves and a better jumper. I was in school with Gene, but he was very good, but not Jabari good/potential great. Gene as a senior was not as good as Jabari as a frosh, IMO. Maybe close, but not better. I just don't agree.

[Wander]

Jabari might go #1 on the draft, so it's in no way unreasonable to wonder if he might be Duke's most talented player ever. I don't know why Gene Banks, very clearly behind Jabari in pure talent and selected 20-something in the NBA draft, is even in the discussion. And yes, I know NBA draft position isn't the end-all or primary point of this discussion, but it's a good starting point for a guy who's only played one non-high-school season.

That said, it's Grant Hill until proven otherwise, and Jabari's poor performance on defense so far does take a lot away from him in this discussion, IMO.

[dukelifer]

"Gene Banks was Jabari 30+ years ago."

I can't believe anybody would actually believe this. Sorry to say this, but Jabari is way more gifted than Tink ever was; he had more moves and a better jumper. I was in school with Gene, but he was very good, but not Jabari good/potential great. Gene as a senior was not as good as Jabari as a frosh, IMO. Maybe close, but not better. I just don't agree.

I was in school as well. Banks took a very solid team and made them NC contenders. Not every Freshman came in a averged 17 ppg and 8 boards. Albert King was considered the best of the three but Gene was a gamer and became ACC player of the year. He did not have the same game as Jabari but he had his own strengths as a player and did some things better. Gene was considered a better prospect than Magic Johnson. It is hard to compare players and times and kids today have much more opportunities to get better now than back then. I remember this differently than you but Banks was a special player, a Philly legend, and brought Duke back to relevancy as a program. On paper freshman Banks and Jabari are very similar.If Banks was playing today and had the game impact he had 37 years ago - he would have been considered a lottery pick.

[sagegrouse]

"Gene Banks was Jabari 30+ years ago."

I can't believe anybody would actually believe this. Sorry to say this, but Jabari is way more gifted than Tink ever was; he had more moves and a better jumper. I was in school with Gene, but he was very good, but not Jabari good/potential great. Gene as a senior was not as good as Jabari as a frosh, IMO. Maybe close, but not better. I just don't agree.

As seniors in HS, maybe their reps were equal. I predict Jabari will be a much, much better pro than Gene.

[dukelifer]

Jabari might go #1 on the draft, so it's in no way unreasonable to wonder if he might be Duke's most talented player ever. I don't know why Gene Banks, very clearly behind Jabari in pure talent and selected 20-something in the NBA draft, is even in the discussion. And yes, I know NBA draft position isn't the end-all or primary point of this discussion, but it's a good starting point for a guy who's only played one non-high-school season.

That said, it's Grant Hill until proven otherwise, and Jabari's poor performance on defense so far does take a lot away from him in this discussion, IMO.

Yes and I contend none the players in this draft class will be as good as Isiah Thomas who was in the same draft class as Banks. Draft position does say much - Darko, and Kwame would probably agree.

[Billy Dat]

He will need to become a workout machine. Needs too shoot much better- needs much better conditioning an will need to work on his defense. That is a lot. Most great NBA players start their career with one thing that they do well. That allows them to gain confidence and settle in. Jabari is a solid player and has a great base to work from. But his shooting is spotty - is not an explosive driver and and struggles against bigger players. But at this point - he will need to work really hard to be among the best players in the league.

He needs to transform his body the way Elton did, and I think he will. As for how explosive he is on drives, I only offer this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOhgjrwEnQE

As for his shooting, I agree that his little step back 3 pointer needed some work, but 47% overall, 36% from 3 and 75% from the line is better than spotty.

I think everyone needs to work really hard to be one of the best players in the NBA, I can't think of one exception to that rule. In fact, I think it's a requirement.

Defense will be the key. On offense, honestly, I think he's going to be fine.

[dukelifer]

As seniors in HS, maybe their reps were equal. I predict Jabari will be a much, much better pro than Gene.

Banks was better than some remember- in his second season he averaged 15 and 8. He was a solid pro until injuries got him. I suspect Jabari may be better assuming no injuries.

[dukelifer]

He needs to transform his body the way Elton did, and I think he will. As for how explosive he is on drives, I only offer this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOhgjrwEnQE

As for his shooting, I agree that his little step back 3 pointer needed some work, but 47% overall, 36% from 3 and 75% from the line is better than spotty.

I think everyone needs to work really hard to be one of the best players in the NBA, I can't think of one exception to that rule. In fact, I think it's a requirement.

Defense will be the key. On offense, honestly, I think he's going to be fine.

Jabari had many impressive plays this year- no doubt. I enjoyed watching him play. But the next level is much different. How many pros do you think could have made that move on YouTube. I contend a whole bunch. In space he is very good. So are many pros. In traffic he struggled this year. Lebron powers through people - Blake powers through people. Jabari will find this a harder at the next level playing against stronger and faster players.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I think everyone needs to work really hard to be one of the best players in the NBA, I can't think of one exception to that rule. In fact, I think it's a requirement.

Allen Iverson ???

[greybeard]

Can we spell his first name correctly please? Unless it's autocorrect or something in which case apologies. I feel very safe in saying that Jabari will have a better professional career than Christian Laettner did, and Laettner had a rock solid NBA career including an All Star appearance. Jabari is a much more dynamic player than Laettner was. Laettner also had one of the best PGs in NCAA history along with Grant Hill. Quinn Cook and Rodney Hood are nice, but they're certainly no Hurley or Hill, let's not forget this please. Look, Laettner is, IMO the best player in Duke history and the most legendary, but Jabari is going to be special at the next level. He will play the 3 and will be hidden on defense until he gets better at it.

Oh, I thought we were playing keepies, you know, for real--back when you flipped baseball cards, sometimes you got to keep them even if you lost, mostly it was keepies, you know, for real Laettner is always mentioned among best college players ever. So far, Jabari, not so much.

As for the old timers not being competitive, let's see:

Centers:[B/] [B] Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Walton, Gilmore, Moses, Sampson, Ewing, Mutambo, Robinson, Bellamy, Unseld, Sigma, Dougherty, Bellamy, Thurman, Duckworth, Lanier, Cartwright, Ben Wallace, Cowens, Parish, Daryl Dawkins, Zelmo, Smitz, Eaton, Reed, Mourning. Give yet?

Power Forwards: Hakeem, Marvin Barnes, Buck, Rodman, Hayes, Connie Hawkins, McKale, Spenser Heyward, Jerry Lucas, Maurice Lucas, Tom Chambers, Gus Johnson, Derrick Coleman, Debusschere, McGinnis, Mailman, Spenser Hayward , Petite, Rasheed Wallace, Cedric Maxwell, Anthony Mason, Luke Jackson, Truck, Oakley, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis, Bobby Jones, Caldwell, Gus Johnson, Ruland, Webber, Howard, Nance, Elmore, Laettner, Xavier, Horace Grant, Vladi, Sam Perkins. Enough?

Small Forwards]: Dominique, Doc, Bird, Baylor, David Thompson, Bernard King, Rick Barry, Barkley, Pippin, Chris Mullins, Worthy, Manning, Cunningham, Dantley, Joe Campbell, Glenn Robinson, Kennon, Wicks, Derrick McKay, Kiki, Bradley, Aguirre, Roger Brown, McAdoo, Cunningham, Kenny Walker, Clark Kellog. Sam Mitchell, Chuck Person, Schrempf, Cummings, Kearsey, Love, Kemp, Heard, Gugliotta, Grant Hill, Sean Elliot, Havlicek, Reggie Lewis, Szczerbiak, Heyman, Stallworth, Dandridge, Reggie Williams, Bias, Worthy, Chuck Pearson, Tom McMillin, Marques Johnson, Wilks, Orr, Addison, Glen Rice, Keith VanHorn, Billie Owens, Craig Elho, Bobby Love, Bobby Dandridge, Alex English, Mashburn, Robert Horry. More?

shooting guards: MICHAEL, Oscar, West, Earl (Monroe), Maravich, The Iceman (Gervin), Drexler, Jimmy Walker, JoJo, Austin Carr, Phil Chenier, Sam Jones, Charlie Scott, Jeff Mullins, Lou Hudson, Fred Carter, Rolando Blackman, Reggie Miller, Steve Francis, Drexler, Drazen, Sidale Threat, Hersey Hawkins, World B. Free, Andrew Toney, Sidney Moncrief, Vinnie Johnson, Dumars, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Reggie Lewis, Rolando Blackman, Brian Shaw, Hubert Davis, Starks, Walter Davis, Danny Ainge, Doug Collins, Larry Miller, Sleepy Floyd, Tim Hardaway, Randy Smith, Frank Ramsey, Bill Sharmen, Vernon Maxwell, Hall Greer, Allen Houston, Hubbert Davis, Jimmy Walker, Allen Houston, Petrie,Joe Caldwell, Mike McGee. Say When

Point Guards: Magic[/B, Walt (Clyde) Frazier, Isaiah, Maravich, Maurice Cheeks, John Lucas, Archie Clark, Mark Price, Lionel Hollins, Avery Johnson, Calvin Murphy, John Lucas, BJ Armstrong, Sugar Ray Richardson, Darrel Walker, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Reggie Theus, Doc Rivers, Bob Cousey, Mike Bibby, Mooky Blaylock, Kenny Smith, Archie Clark, MarK Mason, Lindsy Hunter, Brian Taylor, Nat Archibald, Dee Brown, Sherman Douglas, Slick Watts, Johnny Moore, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Dawkins, JWill, Sam Cassell, Van Lier John Long, Johnny Davis, Penny Hardaway, Stephon Marbury, Van Lier, Brad Davis, Damon Stoudamire, Larry Wright. [B]When

These are just the guys who made it in the NBA that I could easily identify.

[lotusland]

Oh, I thought we were playing keepies, you know, for real--back when you flipped baseball cards, sometimes you got to keep them even if you lost, mostly it was keepies, you know, for real Laettner is always mentioned among best college players ever. So far, Jabari, not so much.

As for the old timers not being competitive, let's see:

Centers:[B/] [B] Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Walton, Gilmore, Moses, Sampson, Ewing, Mutambo, Robinson, Bellamy, Unseld, Sigma, Dougherty, Bellamy, Thurman, Duckworth, Lanier, Cartwright, Ben Wallace, Cowens, Parish, Daryl Dawkins, Zelmo, Smitz, Eaton, Reed, Mourning. Give yet?

Power Forwards: Hakeem, Marvin Barnes, Buck, Rodman, Hayes, Connie Hawkins, McKale, Spenser Heyward, Jerry Lucas, Maurice Lucas, Tom Chambers, Gus Johnson, Derrick Coleman, Debusschere, McGinnis, Mailman, Spenser Hayward , Petite, Rasheed Wallace, Cedric Maxwell, Anthony Mason, Luke Jackson, Truck, Oakley, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis, Bobby Jones, Caldwell, Gus Johnson, Ruland, Webber, Howard, Nance, Elmore, Laettner, Xavier, Horace Grant, Vladi, Sam Perkins. Enough?

Small Forwards]: Dominique, Doc, Bird, Baylor, David Thompson, Bernard King, Rick Barry, Barkley, Pippin, Chris Mullins, Worthy, Manning, Cunningham, Dantley, Joe Campbell, Glenn Robinson, Kennon, Wicks, Derrick McKay, Kiki, Bradley, Aguirre, Roger Brown, McAdoo, Cunningham, Kenny Walker, Clark Kellog. Sam Mitchell, Chuck Person, Schrempf, Cummings, Kearsey, Love, Kemp, Heard, Gugliotta, Grant Hill, Sean Elliot, Havlicek, Reggie Lewis, Szczerbiak, Heyman, Stallworth, Dandridge, Reggie Williams, Bias, Worthy, Chuck Pearson, Tom McMillin, Marques Johnson, Wilks, Orr, Addison, Glen Rice, Keith VanHorn, Billie Owens, Craig Elho, Bobby Love, Bobby Dandridge, Alex English, Mashburn, Robert Horry. More?

shooting guards: MICHAEL, Oscar, West, Earl (Monroe), Maravich, The Iceman (Gervin), Drexler, Jimmy Walker, JoJo, Austin Carr, Phil Chenier, Sam Jones, Charlie Scott, Jeff Mullins, Lou Hudson, Fred Carter, Rolando Blackman, Reggie Miller, Steve Francis, Drexler, Drazen, Sidale Threat, Hersey Hawkins, World B. Free, Andrew Toney, Sidney Moncrief, Vinnie Johnson, Dumars, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Reggie Lewis, Rolando Blackman, Brian Shaw, Hubert Davis, Starks, Walter Davis, Danny Ainge, Doug Collins, Larry Miller, Sleepy Floyd, Tim Hardaway, Randy Smith, Frank Ramsey, Bill Sharmen, Vernon Maxwell, Hall Greer, Allen Houston, Hubbert Davis, Jimmy Walker, Allen Houston, Petrie,Joe Caldwell, Mike McGee. Say When

Point Guards: Magic[/B, Walt (Clyde) Frazier, Isaiah, Maravich, Maurice Cheeks, John Lucas, Archie Clark, Mark Price, Lionel Hollins, Avery Johnson, Calvin Murphy, John Lucas, BJ Armstrong, Sugar Ray Richardson, Darrel Walker, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Reggie Theus, Doc Rivers, Bob Cousey, Mike Bibby, Mooky Blaylock, Kenny Smith, Archie Clark, MarK Mason, Lindsy Hunter, Brian Taylor, Nat Archibald, Dee Brown, Sherman Douglas, Slick Watts, Johnny Moore, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Dawkins, JWill, Sam Cassell, Van Lier John Long, Johnny Davis, Penny Hardaway, Stephon Marbury, Van Lier, Brad Davis, Damon Stoudamire, Larry Wright. [B]When

These are just the guys who made it in the NBA that I could easily identify.

Not that it matters but......Bird???

[Billy Dat]

Jabari had many impressive plays this year- no doubt. I enjoyed watching him play. But the next level is much different. How many pros do you think could have made that move on YouTube. I contend a whole bunch. In space he is very good. So are many pros. In traffic he struggled this year. Lebron powers through people - Blake powers through people. Jabari will find this a harder at the next level playing against stronger and faster players.

I agree, but, again, I think this is true for every kid who ever played and dominated in college, nothing particular to him.


Allen Iverson ???

GREAT CALL!!!!!!!!!!! That just shows what a complete freak, once-in-a-lifetime player was Bubba Chuck. Practice...we talkin bout practice!!!!!!!!!

[yancem]

Oh, I thought we were playing keepies, you know, for real--back when you flipped baseball cards, sometimes you got to keep them even if you lost, mostly it was keepies, you know, for real Laettner is always mentioned among best college players ever. So far, Jabari, not so much.

As for the old timers not being competitive, let's see:

Centers: Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Walton, Gilmore, Moses, Sampson, Ewing, Mutambo, Robinson, Bellamy, Unseld, Sigma, Dougherty, Bellamy, Thurman, Duckworth, Lanier, Cartwright, Ben Wallace, Cowens, Parish, Daryl Dawkins, Zelmo, Smitz, Eaton, Reed, Mourning. Give yet?

Power Forwards: Hakeem, Marvin Barnes, Buck, Rodman, Hayes, Connie Hawkins, McKale, Spenser Heyward, Jerry Lucas, Maurice Lucas, Tom Chambers, Gus Johnson, Derrick Coleman, Debusschere, McGinnis, Mailman, Spenser Hayward, Petite, Rasheed Wallace, Cedric Maxwell, Anthony Mason, Luke Jackson, Truck, Oakley, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis, Bobby Jones, Caldwell, Gus Johnson, Ruland, Webber, Howard, Nance, Elmore, Laettner, Xavier, Horace Grant, Vladi, Sam Perkins. Enough?

Small Forwards]: Dominique, Doc, Bird, Baylor, David Thompson, Bernard King, Rick Barry, Barkley, Pippin, Chris Mullins, Worthy, Manning, Cunningham, Dantley, Joe Campbell, Glenn Robinson, Kennon, Wicks, Derrick McKay, Kiki, Bradley, Aguirre, Roger Brown, McAdoo, Cunningham, Kenny Walker, Clark Kellog. Sam Mitchell, Chuck Person, Schrempf, Cummings, Kearsey, Love, Kemp, Heard, Gugliotta, Grant Hill, Sean Elliot, Havlicek, Reggie Lewis, Szczerbiak, Heyman, Stallworth, Dandridge, Reggie Williams, Bias, Worthy, Chuck Pearson, Tom McMillin, Marques Johnson, Wilks, Orr, Addison, Glen Rice, Keith VanHorn, Billie Owens, Craig Elho, Bobby Love, Bobby Dandridge, Alex English, Mashburn, Robert Horry. More?

shooting guards: MICHAEL, Oscar, West, Earl (Monroe), Maravich, The Iceman (Gervin), Drexler, Jimmy Walker, JoJo, Austin Carr, Phil Chenier, Sam Jones, Charlie Scott, Jeff Mullins, Lou Hudson, Fred Carter, Rolando Blackman, Reggie Miller, Steve Francis, Drexler, Drazen, Sidale Threat, Hersey Hawkins, World B. Free, Andrew Toney, Sidney Moncrief, Vinnie Johnson, Dumars, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, Reggie Lewis, Rolando Blackman, Brian Shaw, Hubert Davis, Starks, Walter Davis, Danny Ainge, Doug Collins, Larry Miller, Sleepy Floyd, Tim Hardaway, Randy Smith, Frank Ramsey, Bill Sharmen, Vernon Maxwell, Hall Greer, Allen Houston, Hubbert Davis, Jimmy Walker, Allen Houston, Petrie,Joe Caldwell, Mike McGee. Say When

Point Guards: Magic, Walt (Clyde) Frazier, Isaiah, Maravich, Maurice Cheeks, John Lucas, Archie Clark, Mark Price, Lionel Hollins, Avery Johnson, Calvin Murphy, John Lucas, BJ Armstrong, Sugar Ray Richardson, Darrel Walker, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Reggie Theus, Doc Rivers, Bob Cousey, Mike Bibby, Mooky Blaylock, Kenny Smith, Archie Clark, MarK Mason, Lindsy Hunter, Brian Taylor, Nat Archibald, Dee Brown, Sherman Douglas, Slick Watts, Johnny Moore, Payton, Kevin Johnson, Dawkins, JWill, Sam Cassell, Van Lier John Long, Johnny Davis, Penny Hardaway, Stephon Marbury, Van Lier, Brad Davis, Damon Stoudamire, Larry Wright. When

These are just the guys who made it in the NBA that I could easily identify.

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove with this list. I originally thought that you were trying to prove that a guy like Bob Cousey could still compete in the nba today (since it was the OP's contention that he couldn't) but that doesn't quite make sense because half or more of the players listed from the 80's and 90's. Cousey played in the 50's and 60's. I don't think that anyone is arguing that players in the nba's have changed dramatically in the last 20-30 years but I think that most will agree that is there is a difference from 50-60 years ago. Then I thought maybe you were listing great players, ones that Parker could compete with but that can't be right either because you list Ben Wallace who couldn't make a basket outside of dunk and BJ Armstrong who was a decent player with a good shot but only has rings because he player with Jordan and Pippin. There are a few other questionable names on your list and after looking a little closer, some of them even played in the 2000's so now I'm really confused?

[CDu]

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove with this list. I originally thought that you were trying to prove that a guy like Bob Cousey could still compete in the nba today (since it was the OP's contention that he couldn't) but that doesn't quite make sense because half or more of the players listed from the 80's and 90's. Cousey played in the 50's and 60's. I don't think that anyone is arguing that players in the nba's have changed dramatically in the last 20-30 years but I think that most will agree that is there is a difference from 50-60 years ago. Then I thought maybe you were listing great players, ones that Parker could compete with but that can't be right either because you list Ben Wallace who couldn't make a basket outside of dunk and BJ Armstrong who was a decent player with a good shot but only has rings because he player with Jordan and Pippin. There are a few other questionable names on your list and after looking a little closer, some of them even played in the 2000's so now I'm really confused?

Not to mention the inclusion of "Spenser Heyward" (I can only assume he meant "Spencer Haywood") twice. :) And Robert Horry? Seriously? Not only is he a modern player, but he wasn't even a starter for much of his career and wasn't a major minutes guy for the majority of his career (never topped 30 mpg after age 27). But yeah, that was not a very meaningful list.

Yes, there were great players 50 years ago. The game was played MUCH differently back then, and a guy like Cousy might not have been able to compete in today's game. The skill level today (in terms of ballhandling and long-range shooting, especially among players at the forward positions) is unquestionably above what it was back in Cousy's day.

A guy like Parker (6'8"-6'9", 240) would have been pigeon-holed as a PF and wouldn't have developed the total game he has developed. Parker is far more skilled at 18-19 than Karl Malone was throughout most of his NBA career (Malone was essentially a bull in a China shop who developed a jumpshot as his career developed and was never a good ballhandler). The expansion of the skillset of SF and PF has largely been a creation of the past ~25-30 years.

All that is to say this: no Duke freshman has played at the level that Parker played. There is no reasonable debate here: First Team All-ACC and First-Team All-American. Of course, some of that may be due to lack of depth of veteran talent (could Hill have put up similar numbers if it weren't for veterans like Laettner taking the leading role?) to take on the responsibility of the leading role. And even further back, freshman couldn't play at all (would Art Heyman have been able to put up huge numbers if he'd been allowed to play as a freshman?) So it's really hard to say that Parker is the most talented player to ever play at Duke, because it's just really hard to compare what he's done this year to previous players in an "apples to apples" comparison.

[greybeard]

Rules, I suppose, are made to be changed. But, I saw the discussion here begin with Laettner and Hill. The question was how Jabari would fair against players of their era. Nobody said a word about going back to the 60s and 70s, until I buried the argument. Considering that the average length of an NBA career is around 6 years, and the average age is somewhere around 26, your new definition serves only to show that you need to win for losing, which is not a great trait. What I said stands. It's the end of the 2014 season--why I should even concede thr rewrite, Don't like the issue, change it. Wow.

We are talking about the best ever. Jabari is not better than a slew of players from the 60s through the end of the 80s; which leaves you 24 years between the old guys and the new generation of players. 24 years is a big, big number. If we take the more reasonable 2 decades, that is, you lose 4 years, the average span of an NBA player is 6 years and age 26 years old, we are beyond the stars, on this, or, I should say, you are..

I'll take the 1960s through the end of the 1970s, with a 5 year kicker into the 1060s, not that it's needed. You will see that the 60s and 70s is all that is needed to put this issue to rest. Remember, you said, "the best ever." We'll see, and It won't take long.

One last preliminary: there was no three-point shot during the 60'3 through mid 80s, or at least to the 80s. There is no telling how many NBA players during this era would have been incredible stars with the tree ball, or how many star college players would have also had unbelievable careers. The name of the game, was getting inside, 17 feet on in, the passing game, with shots off screens, playing off the pivot, not "point guards" in terms of an organizing force, no pull down rims, to make dunks out of that which they are not, walking and carrying the ball were enforced, and there were no zones to take away the best play in basketball, defense at the rim by the gr3eatest shot blockers the game has known. Oh let's not forget walking, especially on 3-ball and stand-still dunks (a mislabel) if there ever was one, and palming, as when you carry the ball horizontal to the ground for a second or two, which creates a ridiculous, and I do mean ridiculous, advantage.

But, to be holy unfair to me, we'll put these things aside for now, except for a mention or two.

Let's give you through 1975, that's 40 years, right. That's see how many players would bury your guy, or he'd have least have to have one crazy amazing career, not shown to be in the cards, to come close.

Centers: Name one whom Jabari belongs in the same conversation: Wilt, Russell, Jabbar, Walton, Moses, Lanier, Nat Thurman, Unseld, Cowens, Willis Reed, and Walt Bellamy. [The conversation is over, right? You did say the best ever?]

By the way, Jamari would not get a single shot off inside against Ben Wallace and would not have gotten a rebound. Nor would he have been able to keep Wallace off the offensive board. Wallace was an essential member of the Detroit, championship team, I believe he won the defensive player of the year, and Larry Brown fully integrated him completely into an amazing offense. He was invited to join the Olympic team as the presumed starting center, but declined. Jabari has a long way to handle someone like Wallace. He's not anyone close to him yet.

Power Forwards: Marvin Barnes, besides Hakeem, far and away the best scoring power forward who could also run the court and fly and shoot from distance, ever. Over! No? Connie Hawkins, Spenser Heywood, Elvin Hayes, Jerry Lucas, Maurice Lucus, George McGinnis, David Debusschere, Kevin McKale, Sidney Wicks, and, okay, Mitch Kupchek; explain how Jabari beats any of these guys. Not in this life. Try guys like Paul Silas and many like him. See how close Jabari gets to the rim; hoe many boards does he get.

Jabari vs. Karl Malone. For real? This is a man's game. Throw in Dolph Shayes, way behind the three line and you did not want to fool with him near the basket, and Bob Petite, who rebounded with the best centers in the game, and had an amazingly quick-release jump shot from close that was deadly.

Snall Fowards: David Thompson, sorry Jabari, go home. Dr. J, Baylor, Bernard King, Rick Barry, Billy Cunningham, Marques Johnson, Bob McAdoo. Don't let the door hit you. Oh, Bradley with the 3-ball; for real? Kiki, Bob Love, Bobby Dandridge, Alex English, Joe Caldwell, Dave Stallworth, Adrian Dantly, Mark Aguirre, David Myers, Mike McGee, Lou Hudson, Wilks, Randy Smith, to name a few--you'll need a remarkable body of work to be in their company, and any of those guys would kill Jabaris with their mid range to long range games and taking it off the bounce. I am certain that most, if not all of them, would have been more than decent, if not great, three ball had that been in the game and had they had the same kind of training players receive today. These guys had finesse, touch, a variety of ways to score the ball, were great off the bounce and changing tempo, and had varied releases. They had long careers. Run Jabar, run; sorry, not fast or long enough.

Shooting guards: Oscar, West, Earl Monroe, Maravich, George Gervin, please, you have nothing to say here. These guys are beyond giants. Jimmy Walker (probably a point), JoJo White, Austin Carr, Charlie Scott, Phil Chenier, Jeff Mullins, John Havlicek (shooting, small forward, probably up there with the untouchables, a definite three shooter), San Jones (who the hell what he might have been in the modern game, I mean the guy was great), Walter Davis, I mean these guys were giants, game alters with long careers. You can in a straight face say that you know that Jabari will be, is now, better than each of this group was? Come on, CDu, you know better. Danny Ainge, Joef Petrie, Doug Collins, Vinnie Frank Ramsey, Doug Collins, M.L. Carr, Mullins, Verga, Charlie Johnson. One important, important, point: there was no 3-point basket in the old days. In the old days, the game was defined by getting a shot nearer the basket than the 3-line if it was available, you never dribbled backwards, which to get to some imaginary spot that they give you more points from.

Point guards: Walt (Clyde) Frazier, Isaiah, Maravich, Lenny Wilkins, Calvin Hill, Maurice Cheeks Jabari is not, nor will he ever be, them, not by half. Frazier and Maravich, beyond definition, not named Magic. Reggie Theus, John Lucas, Archie Clark, Lionel Hollins, Michael Ray Richardson, all would seem a mountain too high, at least a couple of them. Bob Cousey, whom all you new guys love to put down, knew the game and made people better. He could get into the lane and score in ways that would still be effective today, he is a better passer than anyone in the game today, and, he used to shoot from way, way behind what would be today's three point line, which in my opinion has simply changed the game into a NEW SPORT, completely counterintuitive to the basic tenet of all games --namely, the closer you are to the goal if your object is to score the ball the better off you are, and defending the goal IS the first principle of the game, every single one of them played with a ball by a team with the lone exception of modern basketball.

In sum, there are dozens of players from the 60s and 70s spanning every position are beyond any dreamful reach by Jabari's fans dreamful reach. I am certain that Jabari himself has given these fanciful thoughts not a moments thought, and, that, if he ever does, he would find nothing to think about. Nor, at long last, I should think that you will all agree.


You take a look at the list I have made and to say that the old guys could not compete, were not better than Jabbari, is untenable. Heyward, Hawkins, McGuiness, McKale,

Take away feet shuffle as a big goes up to dunk off a catch or rebound not on-the mo9ve to the basket, and take away break away rims that allow people to drag down the front of the rim in order to dunk it rather than it end up at half court, and maybe we would begin to play the real game.

Centers and power forwards hands down, no contest. The early years. Please don't tell me that ABA/NBA players are not considered old. Centers, I do not have to begin to mention, right? Power forwards: Spenser, Connie, Reed, Debusschere, Are you really suggesting that the modern game, as you would define it, has better centers than the 60s-70's centers? I didn't think so. Power forwards? Can't be serious. Small forwards: Doc,

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Rules, I suppose, are made to be changed. But, I saw the discussion here begin with Laettner and Hill. The question was how Jabari would fair against players of their era...

Well, the initial assertions was that Jabari was the "most talented Duke player ever" - so I'd argue that you have effectively moved the goal posts.... somewhere else.

But, I will admit that you were quite thorough!

[greybeard]

Most talented, what are we not getting about this. In terms of Duke career, no kidding he's not near the top of the list. But if you think that all of those people you listed are more talented basketball players than Jabari then you are letting the end of the season tarnish your memory of him or you are displeased by his leaving early or your vision of basketball talent is vastly different than most college and NBA basketball people. Lots of really talented players don't play good defense.

Also, I would bet anything than every player in the pre-K area would get torched by Jabari on the court. It's a different game now. So comparing talent between eras isn't going to work. You can compare careers, but not basketball skill. Bob Cousy stared at the court and dribbled only with his right hand and is considered one of the greatest point guards of all time, but you are crazy if you think he could play in the NBA today. Saying differently makes one sound like an old man sitting in his rocking chair who tells stories about how he walked to school in the snow uphill both ways with no shoes on.

As for only going right, using his right, we're done with that, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Cousy. If you watched him, you'd have known that.

Had a number of different ways to finish with either hand, could shoot from amazing range when he wanted to, was ridiculous on the break and breaking down defenses. The most creative passer the game had known before Pete and then Magic. That there is the list.

Now, how would he how would he have faired in the modern game. I'd say he wouldn't have been named to 13 All Star teams in a row, 11 All NBA teams also, but, beyond that, who really can tell. The guy was a terrific athlete, whose quickness, vision, hands, skills were on the far side of extra ordinary. Would he have started for Duke straight up over Hurley, the revered, Bob Hurley. Next.

Who knows where he would have taken his game had he grown up in this era. But, the only guy the Celtics ever had who saw and played the game on such an extraordinary level was Larry Bird. Something tells me that Cousey would have been killing people in whatever era he played, including today. I am not certain about this, but I doubt that there is a Duke National Championship team that he would not have started for; all of K's final four teams, what do you think. For real, what do you really, really think. Not what some heads think about the game today being so much more advanced. But, what someone who knows when he sees someone who can orchestrate the court, create the game in such remarkable ways. There are very, very few of them, and they are timeless.

I used to play in a pretty heady game on the Island on summer weekends. There was a 6 foot player there named Eddie Gard, the bag man for the 1951 payola scandals. Some pretty good players hung at that court before my day, guys from the Island named Art and Larry. Larry said he learned more about the game from Gard, the New York passing game which is to say the passing game at it's finest from Gard. When I was around, Gard almost always teamed up with Alan Seiden, a First Team All-American from St. John's in the fifties. Whoever they picked up, played like a pro, well almost everyone.

George Vescay called Eddie Gard "the forerunner of John Stockton." He reported that Seiden, whom Vescey had idolized since he was a kid, told him once, that Gard had "'taught Alan the nuances of picking and passing.' I consider myself privileged to have played on Gard’s side one afternoon on an outdoor court in Woodmere, Long Island about 25 years ago." http://nypost.com/2009/01/11/combustible-star-battled-nba-legends-reputation/

Like I said, so did I, a number of times. What did I learn from watching and playing with/against the guy. I learned things about the game you cannot teach, you try to explain, and people, well, the stuff is elusive. It's like a sun rise, it creeps up and owns you, and then it leaves, but never entirely.

Gentlemen. Eddie Gard for sure was all that. Equally sure, he was no Bob Cousey. Later.

[duke09hms]

All that is to say this: no Duke freshman has played at the level that Parker played. There is no reasonable debate here: First Team All-ACC and First-Team All-American.

Are we choosing to overlook Parker's extreme defensive liabilities then? If not, then I'd say Kyrie may rival Jabari for that title. Dominant on the offensive end at the most influential position, setting up his teammates and coupled with strong defense. I remember in a few games, he silenced the senior star PGs of MSU and Kansas State - Kalin Lucas and Jacob Pulley?

To me, Kyrie's proficiency at both ends of the court surpasses Jabari's overall contribution because Parker's lack of defensive awareness/rotations would destabilize the entire team defense.

[CDu]

Are we choosing to overlook Parker's extreme defensive liabilities then? If not, then I'd say Kyrie may rival Jabari for that title. Dominant on the offensive end at the most influential position, setting up his teammates and coupled with strong defense. I remember in a few games, he silenced the senior star PGs of MSU and Kansas State - Kalin Lucas and Jacob Pulley?

To me, Kyrie's proficiency at both ends of the court surpasses Jabari's overall contribution because Parker's lack of defensive awareness/rotations would destabilize the entire team defense.

If Irving had played a full season maybe he would have surpassed Parker. Or maybe the defensive deficiencies that have become obvious in the NBA would have made themselves evident as teams learned his weaknesses.

And let us not blame Parker for de-stabilizing the entire defense. Outside of Thornton and Hairston, our entire team was lacking in defensive awareness. Had Parker played with seniors Smith and Singler perhaps we aren't talking about his defense.

[duke96]

So, the original question was "Will he turn out to have been the most talented player to have ever played for Duke?" and the suggestion was that it seemed, to me, that this was likely based on what (little) we had seen at that point.

I think the phrasing made pretty clear that it was not being suggested that he definitively was, or was not, anything at that time. But I guess not everyone read it that way. I'm not sure how anyone could suggest that they can render a definitive conclusion that he has (or has not) indeed "turned out to have been" our most talented player yet (then or now). I certainly did not, and we will need many years of future observation to see if we can reach a conclusion.

Anyhow, back to the point, Jabari had some ups and downs over the season. He came in able to showcase a remarkable set of skills from the get-go. I'm not sure that I ultimately saw the growth in his game (other than development of his post moves) over the course of the season that I had imagined might be the case in my initial suggestion. His 3 point shooting percentage (a pretty remarkable aspect of his early games) declined in the latter part of the season from what I recall, but was still solid.

It's rightly pointed out that a G Hill had a lot more talented upperclassmen on the team to take more of the spotlight. Although they also consumed a lot of the defensive focus, while Jabari was target #1 for opponents' defenses this year. It's also worth noting that Jabari played what seemed like an unnatural position for most of the season and still managed to put up spectacular results, which I think is pretty special. His own defense for sure was a liability, although our entire team defense was a mess this year for reasons I still dont fully understand, and so who knows what potential he may have to improve this in a better coordinated defensive setting.

In any case, as others have pointed out, I'm not sure how we could look at Jabari right now and say he doesn't have the potential to be the most talented guy we have had. He has been often cited as potentially the most talented in one of the most talented freshman classes in recent memory. But the verdict will come down to his performance and growth at the next level. I personally think it's down to Jabari, Kyrie, and Grant for the most talented of all time. Hopefully we will have the opportunity to observe the first two for many years before all the data is in.

[greybeard]

If Irving had played a full season maybe he would have surpassed Parker. Or maybe the defensive deficiencies that have become obvious in the NBA would have made themselves evident as teams learned his weaknesses.

And let us not blame Parker for de-stabilizing the entire defense. Outside of Thornton and Hairston, our entire team was lacking in defensive awareness. Had Parker played with seniors Smith and Singler perhaps we aren't talking about his defense.

Kyrie has not come close to producing a winner at Cleveland. Very, very personable and well spoken, he has not won with his teammates, he has not created whatever is needed to be accepted as leader, notwithstanding his numbers, or because of them.

I think that Jabari might well be similar. He did not bring out the best in his teammates, not by a long shot, and, as K mentioned, this team was on the short side of leadership.

I agree very much with those who have commented on Jabari's ability to create catches, with this teammates always looking to get him the ball, mind you, but to create catches in a variety of spots, most of which made him dangerous. Plainly, K wants him to score the ball as often as possible-complete discretion, occasionally used improvidently, especially on the outside, when he clearly went into a pre-shot routine that said, "no" He went anyway with predictable results. You don't get to do that as often as he did, put up bad ones when your teammates end up watching without losing them, without diminishing what your team can be on offense.

Something to look at.

Those who look to compare Jabari's game to anyone's, especially Carmelo, make a mistake. The one thing about his game is how unique certain qualities that most define him are. One of them is not shooting the ball, scoring it, in anywhere near Carmelo's neighborhood. He simply does not play the game well from outside catches. Carmelo is the master.

If Jabari really succeeds offensively it will be on his ability to confuse the hell out of people trying to stop him off the bounce from power-forward territory. His game from that area, especially once he puts it on the floor, There are parts of what he does that remind me of some special, unusual, and very effective qualities, a mixture, a few great, great scorers from the real past. But, Parker adds to that which reminds in ways that are powerful (double meaning intended). Whether they will work in the NBA, whether they will fit into schemes and enhance, will be fun to watch. He is likeable, very. I hope he succeeds.

And oh, Keith Van Horn.

[MPandolfi]

Great Instagram post (http://instagram.com/p/nv5VhxHh9i/) by Jabari this afternoon. While obviously disappointed he couldn't suit up for another year, it's nice to see his one season with the program had such a positive impact on him.

[Furniture]

Thanks finding that. What a great kid! Definite lump in the throat moment!!

[superdave]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2014/story/_/id/10904761/projecting-jabari-parker-nba-nba-draft

For those of you with Insider, there's a lot of discussion about how NBA scouts and GMs see Jabari's defense.

The article also references this site, which looks pretty interesting: http://hoop-math.com/Duke2014.php

[Class of '94]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2014/story/_/id/10904761/projecting-jabari-parker-nba-nba-draft

For those of you with Insider, there's a lot of discussion about how NBA scouts and GMs see Jabari's defense.

The article also references this site, which looks pretty interesting: http://hoop-math.com/Duke2014.php

Without violating any rules and giving any details, are you allowed to say in a general sense how Jabari's defense is viewed by the NBA scouts and GMs (i.e., needs a lot of work, ability to improve, hopeless cause in terms of begin a good defensive player at the next level, etc.)?

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Thanks finding that. What a great kid! Definite lump in the throat moment!!

There was a lump in my throat, too, until the unfortunate statement about thanking all the "little people". Oops. Perhaps thanking all the folks behind the scenes would have been a more mature way of saying it.

Love, Ima

[Gthoma2a]

Given what they said and what I noticed in reflection (watching several games on the DVR), not much change of speed and some measurement issues (mentioned in the article), I wonder if Parker will ever be an all-star player. I think he will be a solid player, but why do we assume he will be a real star? Does anyone see him as being able to create from a face-up situation away from the basket? Will he develop a crossover that gets him space, while going forward or will he rely on a side-step or, worse, a fade-away. I think he needs to work on conditioning, before we really find out, but he never struck me as a guy who could attack the basket with one on one plays with a guy in front of him. He was great with post moves (back to the basket) and baseline plays, but I just rarely saw him create his own shots with a defender facing him, without him moving away from the basket.

[MCFinARL]

There was a lump in my throat, too, until the unfortunate statement about thanking all the "little people". Oops. Perhaps thanking all the folks behind the scenes would have been a more mature way of saying it.

Love, Ima

Agreed. Maybe Jabari was traveling for a game the day they discussed "tone" in his Writing 20 class. :)

[Dukeface88]

There was a lump in my throat, too, until the unfortunate statement about thanking all the "little people". Oops. Perhaps thanking all the folks behind the scenes would have been a more mature way of saying it.

Love, Ima

Well, when you're 6-8 you probably think of everyone as "little people".

[tommy]

Given what they said and what I noticed in reflection (watching several games on the DVR), not much change of speed and some measurement issues (mentioned in the article), I wonder if Parker will ever be an all-star player. I think he will be a solid player, but why do we assume he will be a real star? Does anyone see him as being able to create from a face-up situation away from the basket? Will he develop a crossover that gets him space, while going forward or will he rely on a side-step or, worse, a fade-away. I think he needs to work on conditioning, before we really find out, but he never struck me as a guy who could attack the basket with one on one plays with a guy in front of him. He was great with post moves (back to the basket) and baseline plays, but I just rarely saw him create his own shots with a defender facing him, without him moving away from the basket.

I disagree. He did that all year long, time after time after time, sometimes even to the detriment of the team, like when he faced a strong defender who could stay with him on a drive or, worse, when such a defender would also receive help. But regardless, once he stopped hoisting step-back 3's, which was about 1/3 to halfway through the season, attacking off the dribble became Jabari's primary means of creating offense for himself.

[rsvman]

Parker is far more skilled at 18-19 than Karl Malone was throughout most of his NBA career (Malone was essentially a bull in a China shop who developed a jumpshot as his career developed and was never a good ballhandler).
Heh-heh-heh. Words escape me. All I can do is laugh and shake my head. Malone could spot Jabari 5 in a game to 11 and win by three.

[slower]

And oh, Keith Van Horn.

In all of your marathon ramblings, mumblings and mutterings, THIS may be the funniest thing you've ever said. :D

[arnie]

In all of your marathon ramblings, mumblings and mutterings, THIS may be the funniest thing you've ever said. :D

I won't refute you with specifics ( don't have the energy) but highly doubt the Van Horn even makes the Top 10. Humorous nevertheless.

[johnb]

There was a lump in my throat, too, until the unfortunate statement about thanking all the "little people". Oops. Perhaps thanking all the folks behind the scenes would have been a more mature way of saying it.

Love, Ima


I've really enjoyed watching Jabaro, but between the little people comment and his indicating that Carmelo didn't have teammates on the Knicks, I'm beginning to see why Coach K doesn't encourage his players to give interviews during the season. He's a bright guy, but he's a teenager at whom many grown ups have been showering attention for years. It would be a little odd if he was especially humble--which is why next year will likely be an eye opener... he's really good, but there are dozens and dozens of NBA players who are more athletic than he is, and quite a few of them have a skill or two that he doesn't have. ie, he wants some competition? he'll get it, especially if he keeps inadvertently dissing people.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

I've really enjoyed watching Jabaro, but between the little people comment and his indicating that Carmelo didn't have teammates on the Knicks, I'm beginning to see why Coach K doesn't encourage his players to give interviews during the season. He's a bright guy, but he's a teenager at whom many grown ups have been showering attention for years. It would be a little odd if he was especially humble--which is why next year will likely be an eye opener... he's really good, but there are dozens and dozens of NBA players who are more athletic than he is, and quite a few of them have a skill or two that he doesn't have. ie, he wants some competition? he'll get it, especially if he keeps inadvertently dissing people.

Wow, I think you are really reading an awful lot into that comment. I seriously doubt it was an intentional burn, but rather an attempt to reach out and be thankful to people who helped him along the way.