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hurleyfor3
11-13-2013, 12:39 AM
Take it easy, everyone. It's November.

Potato Head
11-13-2013, 12:39 AM
Good team in front of a semi-hostile crowd, not a bad loss. It's worrying that our interior defense is non-existent and we're not a good free throw shooting team, but we're still good. Also, put me in the camp of not being a fan of freethrowball.

NYBri
11-13-2013, 12:40 AM
I love this team. Lessons in November pay off in March.

CLW
11-13-2013, 12:40 AM
Post Defense and Rebounding are just going to be weaknesses all year long with this club

free throw shooting has to improve

gwlaw99
11-13-2013, 12:40 AM
Start Sulaimon.

tbyers11
11-13-2013, 12:41 AM
Good team in front of a semi-hostile crowd, not a bad loss. It's worrying that our interior defense is non-existent and we're not a good free throw shooting team, but we're still good. Also, put me in the camp of not being a fan of freethrowball.

Agreed. Interior defense and rotations will improve. FT shooting is very worrisome though

luburch
11-13-2013, 12:41 AM
I'm just tired of hearing people complain about the new rules.

FerryFor50
11-13-2013, 12:42 AM
Would have liked to see those foul calls a little more evenly distributed in the last 10 minutes, but when you shoot 57% from the line, does it matter?

Oh well. Duke will be fine. Hopefully we pull out a win on Friday...

gus
11-13-2013, 12:42 AM
Good team in front of a semi-hostile crowd, not a bad loss. It's worrying that our interior defense is non-existent and we're not a good free throw shooting team, but we're still good. Also, put me in the camp of not being a fan of freethrowball.

Maybe players will adjust, but it looks like this may be a season where defensive stops at the end of a game just aren't going to happen.

NYBri
11-13-2013, 12:43 AM
And I don't care about recruiting in Chicago tonight. This team. This year.

Dukehky
11-13-2013, 12:43 AM
Look, I think we're going to get a lot better, and hopefully that means that more people will step up. Josh is just getting too many big time minutes. He has proven to be ineffective as a defender and defensive rebounder. He got torched 4 times on poor rotations and can't guard legitimate bigs. Especially now that the block/charge call is not going to go in Duke's favor, he shouldn't be playing so many minutes. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm hating on the kid, but I think the role he's being asked to play right now is over his head. Rasheed is too good to keep on the bench for Thornton's leadership and scrappiness. I would like to see him used to spell Quinn. I just don't think they're very effective together.

Again, glad to see Jabari, Hood, and Jefferson play well. I see why K named them the sure starters. The backcourt has some work to do, even though Rasheed played great in relatively limited minutes.

g-money
11-13-2013, 12:43 AM
Oh well. We clearly have some things to work on, but I think this team is gonna be fun to watch. With the talent we have, the FF potential is definitely there.

I thought Parker outplayed Wiggins.

And re: Wiggins, he came off as a bit of a punk IMO. Is this guy really going to be the #1 pick in the draft? I see the athleticism, but not the skills.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind seeing a Duke-Kansas rematch - in April.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-13-2013, 12:44 AM
I'll take Parker over Wiggs every day of the week.

Cook needs to be strong with ball and play smarter.

The moment may have been too big for Hood tonight. He'll be fine, though.

TT in the post is not a good look to me, dog.

Nice comeback by Sheed. Very impressed.

Rudy
11-13-2013, 12:44 AM
Sad that Andre is behind both Jones and Murphy. I guess he's a practice player now. But his spirits seem to be high when t.v. shows the bench.

loran16
11-13-2013, 12:44 AM
Free Throw shooting has to be better if you're gonna get 20+ FTs a game.

Oh and KU didn't have an empty possession in the last 5:30. That'll do it.

flyingdutchdevil
11-13-2013, 12:45 AM
Good game. Really close. Thoroughly enjoyed it, except for the last 3 minutes and the outcome. My initial impressions:

1) Our O is really solid. I really like the O of Amile, Quinn, Rasheed, and Jabari right now. I think Hood just had an off-game (despite 11 points). I mean, we shot over 50% and still lost! How often does that happen?
2) Our D is atrocious. Don't blame the refs. They were very even. Blame our players for not adjusting (and possibly Coach K for not emphasizing it more)
3) Our rebounding and interior D are especially bad. Not sure how we're going to fix this...
4) I think Wiggins is overrated. Ellis is a stud, as is Mason and Selden. Really like all their games.
5) Andre Dawkins isn't playing much this year.
6) Dickie V is still annoying

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 12:45 AM
I'm just tired of hearing people complain about the new rules.

The new rules exist so the Butlers of the world can't reach the championship game. :)

DevilFalcon
11-13-2013, 12:45 AM
500 free throws each tomorrow! That was the difference in this game.

sporthenry
11-13-2013, 12:46 AM
I'm less worried about the FT shooting. Sheed is better than 50%. I imagine Matt Jones will end up a pretty good FT shooter. I think this is just a small sample size.

The big issue was defense as a whole. Post defense was bad but perimeter defense wasn't much better. Guards got penetration at will which hurt any over the top defense. Parker was particularly poor on the defensive end. I think this poor defense explained some of the poor defensive rebounding.

Team can score with the best of them but it going to come down to defense. All great Duke teams could get those big stops. This team has a ton of work ahead to get there.

jay
11-13-2013, 12:46 AM
We missed 12 free throws. Lost by 11.

Philadukie
11-13-2013, 12:47 AM
Good team in front of a semi-hostile crowd, not a bad loss. It's worrying that our interior defense is non-existent and we're not a good free throw shooting team, but we're still good. Also, put me in the camp of not being a fan of freethrowball.

Totally different game if we make just 65% of our free throws. The final score is not indicative of the game, just the last 90 seconds.

We're watching college basketball change before our eyes here. The teams with the bigger, stronger, longer, quicker players will be at a tremendous advantage because all you have to do is either drive or give a solid entry pass into the post and a foul will be called (or the player will score). Teams can no longer play "hard-nosed D" to compensate for a lack of size and athleticism. Some people obviously think this is a positive development for college basketball. I'm not so sure. I think it accelerates the game toward an NBA-style of play and increases the stakes of the recruiting arms race for extreme athletes.

matt1
11-13-2013, 12:47 AM
Do you think that this will cause our Top-10 streak to come to an end on Monday?

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 12:48 AM
Surprisingly, I'm not depressed with the results.
Kansas did a great job showing the team where they have to improve.
Like the commentators said, this game will be a distant memory by March.

FerryFor50
11-13-2013, 12:48 AM
Do you think that this will cause our Top-10 streak to come to an end on Monday?

Would be pretty lame if it did...

dyedwab
11-13-2013, 12:48 AM
Jabari Parker is already awesome, and Amile played well, and Rasheed gave some quality 2nd half minutes.

But our defense was nothing short of awful. Kansas was getting easy shots either inside or from the perimeter on every possession and we weren't turning over.

And Quinn..wasn't very good tonight on either end of the floor. Perhaps that's the biggest thing for me. FTs are a problem, our defense is a problem, but Quinn's disappearance was the worst omen of the night.

CDu
11-13-2013, 12:49 AM
Well, this game illustrated quite clearly the weaknesses of this team:
1. Very poor interior defense.
2. Very poor rebounding team.
3. Very poor free throw shooting.

I think we're going to struggle with #1 and #2 against any good teams all season. Hopefully we can improve on #3, but that remains to be seen.

For everyone who suggested all summer that we can mitigate our defensive weakness by fronting the post, this game was a terrific example of the flaws in that strategy: (1) you are very susceptible to the lob, and (2) if a team makes a perimeter pass, you are then out of position to defend the post entry pass from a new angle. Kansas exploited our fronting defense much of the night, which resulted in numerous layups/dunks.

We're either going to have to figure out how to defend the post better or we're going to have to be an overwhelming defensive team on the perimeter. So far, we've not accomplished either of those things.

We're a very good team, and we're going to have better days. But this game does not exactly instill confidence for our title hopes.

luburch
11-13-2013, 12:49 AM
Do you think that this will cause our Top-10 streak to come to an end on Monday?

Nah, I would say we fall to 8th.

theAlaskanBear
11-13-2013, 12:50 AM
Lost the rebounding battle in both games so far. Not the end of the world, but bears watching going forward.

jipops
11-13-2013, 12:50 AM
Always a bad sign when every single talking head picks us in a game like this.

It's November. Our defense is...umm...not good right now. Like, less than not good. Wasn't good against Davidson either so that was the sign.

Make a few ft's and we don't think as much about weaknesses tonight.

Offense shows a ton of promise. Amile had a solid outing and Rasheed asserted late (should be starting).

I think we're better than this Kansas team. Just too many mental mistakes and missed ft's to get by.

UrinalCake
11-13-2013, 12:50 AM
I didn't think we moved the ball very well on offense. We had four guys who could utilize their one-on-one skills (Parker, Hood, Rasheed, and Amile) but overall the offense felt a little stagnant. Cook didn't have a great game as mentioned but I think he's still adjusting to his new role with this team. We have a lot of guys who can handle the ball, so he has to find the right balance between scoring and distributing.

Was nice to see Marshall get in the game early, I think Coach K recognized that we need his size, but he made two unforced turnovers and that was it for him.

The last few years we've played great in November and December and then sort of regressed as the year went on, so maybe this year we'll reverse that.

flyingdutchdevil
11-13-2013, 12:51 AM
Well, this game illustrated quite clearly the weaknesses of this team:
1. Very poor interior defense.
2. Very poor rebounding team.
3. Very poor free throw shooting.

I think we're going to struggle with #1 and #2 against any good teams all season. Hopefully we can improve on #3, but that remains to be seen.

For everyone who suggested all summer that we can mitigate our defensive weakness by fronting the post, this game was a terrific example of the flaws in that strategy: (1) you are very susceptible to the lob, and (2) if a team makes a perimeter pass, you are then out of position to defend the post entry pass from a new angle. Kansas exploited our fronting defense much of the night, which resulted in numerous layups/dunks.

We're either going to have to figure out how to defend the post better or we're going to have to be an overwhelming defensive team on the perimeter. So far, we've not accomplished either of those things.

We're a very good team, and we're going to have better days. But this game does not exactly instill confidence for our title hopes.

Yup on all accounts. Our interior D is atrocious. There really isn't a silver lining in that statement either.

gus
11-13-2013, 12:51 AM
2) Our D is atrocious. Don't blame the refs.

Agreed. I think the rules are easy to apply fairly. They do change the game though.

There was some poor decision making at the end of the game (a couple of low percentage threes, a bad fifth foul from parker, etc), and the defense isn't that good yet. But it's just the second game. They'll figure it out. This team will be a lot of fun to watch this year.

rsvman
11-13-2013, 12:51 AM
We all this wasted time dribbling, shooting, passing the ball, and the like? I mean, I tuned in to watch a free-throw shooting contest, but it was interrupted several times by people playing basketball!


Cut out the middleman. Just start at one free throw line, have them shoot a couple, then walk down to the other end and have the other team shoot a couple. Lather, rinse, repeat.

FerryFor50
11-13-2013, 12:53 AM
Too many "hero ball" moments in this game by multiple players. That hurt the offensive flow and led to some transition baskets for KU. A winnable game despite the atrocious FT shooting. I don't think the D was that terrible. That is the new "good defense" in college ball.

CDu
11-13-2013, 12:54 AM
Agreed. I think the rules are easy to apply fairly. They do change the game though.

There was some poor decision making at the end of the game (a couple of low percentage threes, a bad fifth foul from parker, etc), and the defense isn't that good yet. But it's just the second game. They'll figure it out. This team will be a lot of fun to watch this year.

I hope that Coach K takes this tape to our guys and emphasizes the bad decisions. Namely, the two deep 3pt shots (one by Sulaimon, one by Parker). Against a team in foul trouble and with the rules changes in place, you have to attack the basket repeatedly down the stretch.

NashvilleDevil
11-13-2013, 12:56 AM
Free throws, free throws, free throws. Guys have to be ready to shoot a ton of free throws this year and with the number of guys who can drive to the basket it's important to not miss as many as they did tonight.

FerryFor50
11-13-2013, 12:56 AM
I hope that Coach K takes this tape to our guys and emphasizes the bad decisions. Namely, the two deep 3pt shots (one by Sulaimon, one by Parker). Against a team in foul trouble and with the rules changes in place, you have to attack the basket repeatedly down the stretch.

I feel like they did attack late in the game, but lots of non calls there. Was weird after seeing so many calls on drives earlier...

jipops
11-13-2013, 12:57 AM
Well, this game illustrated quite clearly the weaknesses of this team:
1. Very poor interior defense.
2. Very poor rebounding team.
3. Very poor free throw shooting.

I think we're going to struggle with #1 and #2 against any good teams all season. Hopefully we can improve on #3, but that remains to be seen.

For everyone who suggested all summer that we can mitigate our defensive weakness by fronting the post, this game was a terrific example of the flaws in that strategy: (1) you are very susceptible to the lob, and (2) if a team makes a perimeter pass, you are then out of position to defend the post entry pass from a new angle. Kansas exploited our fronting defense much of the night, which resulted in numerous layups/dunks.

We're either going to have to figure out how to defend the post better or we're going to have to be an overwhelming defensive team on the perimeter. So far, we've not accomplished either of those things.

We're a very good team, and we're going to have better days. But this game does not exactly instill confidence for our title hopes.

And using a 6-2 Tyler to front the post certainly didn't help. Unfortunately this is going to be a limitation of personnel we'll be seeing all season. Not the ft issue though(I hope)

NashvilleDevil
11-13-2013, 12:58 AM
I feel like they did attack late in the game, but lots of non calls there. Was weird after seeing so many calls on drives earlier...

I noticed that too. Oh well it's a loss in November, rather it now than in March or April and Kentucky lost so that's nice.

duke09hms
11-13-2013, 12:59 AM
And using a 6-2 Tyler to front the post certainly didn't help. Unfortunately this is going to be a limitation of personnel we'll be seeing all season.

I hope not. It just means we shouldn't use a small lineup (Quinn-Tyler-Rasheed) to guard a great team's big lineup.

Lulu
11-13-2013, 01:01 AM
We actually did not take advantage of the foul-calling as much as we should. Too many weak drives and shots avoiding contact (not to mention a few of the circus type) when any contact at all would have given us the foul... Not that with tonight's FT% it would have helped as much as it should - but I'd take the foul trouble too. The impossibility of drawing a charge is the most depressing thing, but I'm actually a fan of otherwise enforcing the rules for a change.

We also didn't push the ball nearly as much as I expected we would. We looked a lot like other recent duke teams tonight on O.

SCMatt33
11-13-2013, 01:01 AM
Take it easy, everyone. It's November.

It's November, but I don't think that our guys are going to get taller by March. That's a riddle that will have to be solved if you want to compete for a Final Four (or hope to get lucky like 2010 where 5/6 teams didn't have much size). I could say on one hand that Duke's free throw shooting could have made a difference, but I could also say that Wiggins foul trouble kept Kansas from winning bigger. Is there an answer? Probably. But there will have to be major adjustments made, especially given the foul calling this year will hamper attempts to play a hyper aggressive turnover based defense, which is probably what Duke's size/skill dictates.

Some things will work themselves out with practice. The team doesn't have much chemistry on D yet (notice all of the questioning of teammates after blown assignments). The rotations will have to be very precise. Once that chemistry is developed, I think we'll see a lot fewer lineups with Thornton/Cook/Sulaimon in the game all at once. I think most agree that the most talented lineup is Cook/Sulaimon/Hood/Parker/Jefferson, but that lineup isn't ready to play a rotation based help defense that is necessary. With that lineup you have a chance to at least contain the post. I don't think that there are any plans to regularly run a lineup out there where Tyler Thornton is matched up with Andrew Wiggins, but he's needed as a leadership crutch right now.

The other thing that I'd love to see is Parker and Hood crashing the offensive glass. You can see their rebounding ability on the defensive end, but Duke's offensive rebounding is absolutely anemic and those guys are a big part of the problem. They'll have to balance getting open for looks with recognizing the play for someone else and positioning themselves accordingly.

I also think we saw one of the possible solutions in the first half. There is the "best defense is a good offense" approach. By that, I mean that Duke got Kansas in terrible foul trouble by attacking the lane. There are not a lot of teams out there that can throw multiple post guys like Black, Embied, Traylor, and Ellis at you. That a lot of fouls to give up. For example, were Duke to come across Michigan State in the NCAA tourney, you don't have to beat their post offense, you have to get around it by getting Adrian Payne off the court in foul trouble (which is exactly how UK almost won that game).

There are plenty of ways to get around a size disadvantage, but they aren't simple and are normally well executed by mature, experience teams. Duke's not that yet, and they might not get there, but that's the way this team will have to win against the elite.

Potato Head
11-13-2013, 01:02 AM
Yeah, Wiggins had surprisingly little game for someone as highly touted as he was. Was out of control on a lot of drives and his shooting touch was pretty suspect. Crazy freak athlete, but if I'm an NBA exec it would be hard to pass up all the better-rounded players to take him first.

CDu
11-13-2013, 01:03 AM
And using a 6-2 Tyler to front the post certainly didn't help. Unfortunately this is going to be a limitation of personnel we'll be seeing all season.

Yeah, that was an exceptionally strange decision by Coach K. You put Thornton (giving up 6 inches in height) on Wiggins who is a good post scorer. Bad idea. And then you compound that bad idea by FRONTING Wiggins!?!?!?!? Why not just hand Wiggins two points? Thankfully we quickly changed things up, but one has to wonder why it was ever a good idea.

I fear that a lot of Thornton's defensive value may disappear this year with the new rules. His game is all about physicality: clutching, bumping, hand-checks, grabbing, fouling. Officials have been told to get rid of that. So it may well leave Thornton as an undersized, unathletic, smart player who commits a ton of fouls. And I certainly don't think he can defend SF/PF with the new rules.

I find it a bit concerning that, despite having more depth (and tall players) than any time in recent memory, Coach K still felt compelled to go to a 3-guard lineup with Hood at PF. That approach can work against smaller teams like Davidson. It is not likely to work against bigger teams.

NashvilleDevil
11-13-2013, 01:04 AM
Yeah, Wiggins had surprisingly little game for someone as highly touted as he was. Was out of control on a lot of drives and his shooting touch was pretty suspect. Crazy freak athlete, but if I'm an NBA exec it would be hard to pass up all the better-rounded players to take him first.

He did hit the the shot of the game with that nice step back jumper

Billy Dat
11-13-2013, 01:04 AM
I didn't think we moved the ball very well on offense. We had four guys who could utilize their one-on-one skills (Parker, Hood, Rasheed, and Amile) but overall the offense felt a little stagnant. Cook didn't have a great game as mentioned but I think he's still adjusting to his new role with this team. We have a lot of guys who can handle the ball, so he has to find the right balance between scoring and distributing.

Was nice to see Marshall get in the game early, I think Coach K recognized that we need his size, but he made two unforced turnovers and that was it for him.

The last few years we've played great in November and December and then sort of regressed as the year went on, so maybe this year we'll reverse that.

I agree with this, and I think part of what happened is that Jabari got off early and we sort of got stuck relying on/watching him and we got bogged down, basically until K started calling Rasheed's number on that size mismatch. I thought Jabari was out of gas in the final 10 minutes, save for a few scoring plays. I am glad Rasheed was able to give us an offensive spark at that point, although he took a really bad 3, but so did Embiid around the same time so maybe we were even. Amile had a nice offensive outing. Rodney was no where near the threat he needs to be for us to maximize our potential. We'll be a good offensive team, and it is really amazing to see a Duke team take so few threes. Kansas only attempted a few. With the new rules, going to the hole and drawing fouls is important.

As for defense, I think its hard to judge any team because they are adjusting to the new rules. We are a really new team anyway, so it is going to take a while for the defense to be as good as it will be, hopefully much better than it is right now.

I give a lot of credit to Kansas, I though they played really, really well. For a team trotting out a whole new starting 5, they played hard and made big plays. They were smart at exploiting their advantages. Ellis killed us early, Wiggins put the dagger in us late, Selden and Mason did a lot of damage. They are deep and a legit title contender. Am I biased to think they looked better than Kentucky or Michigan State tonight?

K also tightened up the rotation in the second half. He really went with 7, the starters plus Rasheed and Josh. I wish he'd played with the depth a little more - I thought Marshall looked ok out there in the first half to give us a little size.

As for Wiggins, I disagree with those who think he's an overhyped athlete. It's not easy to battle foul trouble and still put up the stats he did and keep your focus to help close out the game. I really sensed that they wore us out, and his sheer dynamic physical presence, and his knowledge of how to use it, were a big part of "winning time" in the final 5 minutes.

Seems like we are all taking this L better than other rare early season losses. Kansas is going to be really good, we are too.

CDu
11-13-2013, 01:05 AM
I hope not. It just means we shouldn't use a small lineup (Quinn-Tyler-Rasheed) to guard a great team's big lineup.

Well, our big lineup wasn't exactly stopping their big lineup, either. Interior defense and rebounding is likely to be a problem we face throughout the season. Thankfully we don't face too many teams as good as Kansas. But when we do, we're going to need a lot of masking agent.

KandG
11-13-2013, 01:08 AM
Fun game, rather ragged thanks to the foul rules, and clearly a lot of work needed to refine things by the players & coaching staff. Everyone knew the interior defense was going to be an issue, but I was alarmed at how erratic the guard play (on both sides of the ball) was, especially given the experience of Cook, Thornton and Sulaimon. The transition defense was just as dreadful as the interior defense, not a great sign.

It may be too much to expect the interior D to get much better given the roster, but I hope (and expect) the coaching staff will find a way to tighten the D and get the offense flowing more smoothly -- yes, I know they scored 83 points, but the fouls helped a lot in inflating the score for both teams. At several points, it felt like the team was waiting for Jabari to bail them out and there was a bit too much one on one. Jabari had to force some shots late and I'd hope the coaches would find ways to get him the ball closer and in better positions late in games, and find Hood or Sulaimon as 2nd/3rd options when defenses shade toward Jabari.

Love Jabari and look forward to his continued growth, but I wouldn't badmouth Wiggins - very talented, made a couple of big shots late, and his speed in transition is scary.

CDu
11-13-2013, 01:12 AM
I thought Jabari was out of gas in the final 10 minutes, save for a few scoring plays.

I felt the same way. I think it's worth noting that Parker, Hood, and Jefferson played nearly all of the first 15 minutes of the second half. As you note below (re: Wiggins), they were asked to expend a LOT of focus/energy on the defensive end. I suspect that Coach K was a bit guilty of riding his horses too long. Maybe stealing a minute or two of rest for those guys would have given them the juice needed to finish strong. As it was, Kansas clearly looked to have better legs down the stretch. And it is probably worth noting that our most productive guy down the stretch was the guy who played fewer minutes coming off the bench (Sulaimon).


As for Wiggins, I disagree with those who think he's an overhyped athlete. It's not easy to battle foul trouble and still put up the stats he did and keep your focus to help close out the game. I really sensed that they wore us out, and his sheer dynamic physical presence, and his knowledge of how to use it, were a big part of "winning time" in the final 5 minutes.

Totally agree. Wiggins finished with 22 points (on 9-15 shooting) and 10 rebounds despite missing a TON of time with foul trouble and despite being the focal point for our defense. That's amazing. Where Parker was the best player on the floor in the first half, Wiggins was the best on the floor in the second half. And it wasn't even close.

duke09hms
11-13-2013, 01:14 AM
Well, our big lineup wasn't exactly stopping their big lineup, either. Interior defense and rebounding is likely to be a problem we face throughout the season. Thankfully we don't face too many teams as good as Kansas. But when we do, we're going to need a lot of masking agent.

I think our "big" lineup of Quinn-Sheed-Rodney-Jabari-Amile would do a lot better or at least have the potential to do much better than our 3-guard lineup. At least it would avoid the "Tyler on Wiggins" possibility.

The rules changes may severely limit Tyler's usefulness on defense this year. Don't want to ever see him on a SF if he can't use his toughness and physicality.

CDu
11-13-2013, 01:15 AM
I think our "big" lineup of Quinn-Sheed-Rodney-Jabari-Amile would do a lot better or at least have the potential to do much better than our 3-guard lineup. At least it would avoid the "Tyler on Wiggins" possibility.

The rules changes may severely limit Tyler's usefulness on defense this year. Don't want to ever see him on a SF if he can't use his toughness and physicality.

I completely agree on both points. I was just saying that, though better than our small lineup, even our big lineup wasn't very effective defensively.

kAzE
11-13-2013, 01:18 AM
Wiggins is definitely not overrated. He has all the physical tools to dominate. He's as good as advertised. Parker is, to me, better than advertised. He was simply amazing for most of the night. I suspect he might have gotten a little tired towards the end of the second half. That can be fixed.

My goodness we are terrible free throw shooting team. That needs to be a point of emphasis in practice.

I really didn't think our defense played that badly either, although towards the end, we were playing 3 guys with 4 fouls. They couldn't even take a chance to challenge shots. I said earlier that the new rules would help our team. I guess it really goes both ways, since Coach K only plays around 8 guys, and once those guys get in foul trouble, we're pretty limited on defense. I can only shrug at that and hope we learn to play defense without fouling. I thought we would pick up full or 3/4 court pressure, but that doesn't seem to be the defensive gameplan anymore.

In any case, sloppy ball handling and poor free throw shooting was what killed us. Defense wasn't great, but it wasn't terrible. There's just no way to play defense when there's a whistle every defensive possession.

ChillinDuke
11-13-2013, 01:20 AM
I'll start this (hopefully brief) post with two admissions:

1) I watched the game at a Duke watch party at a bar in NYC - admittedly not the best place to analyze the X's and O's of a tough matchup like this, and
2) I'm pretty angry at losing which may make me not 100% objective in my thoughts.

With those out of the way, I thought there were 3 key areas in this game worthy of recognition...

1) The new emphasis (read: rules) makes it difficult to guard slashing teams. I think we all hope that we are a slashing team, so this shouldn't necessarily be a negative for us moving forward. But at times it really seemed to be a negative. Just generally. There were plays where the refs called this game as if you weren't allowed to guard. I say that with full recognition of our defense not being impressive tonight. But there were just plays where I watched both Kansas and us move, a foul called, and just asking "What?". And not "What?" in the normal "Where was that foul?!" kind of way. More like "Is that really not allowed?" kind of way.

I fully agree with the new emphasis as a good move for the sport...in theory. But basketball is a contact sport. There needs to be allowable bumping in the right context. I didn't see a consistent contextual application of these rules. I'll chalk it up to my game-watch atmosphere for now. But I'll be watching more intently going forward, because this has a huge bearing on...

2) Free throws. Not much to say here. We just looked bad in this category. Haven't even looked at the stats. We just looked bad.

3) And finally, rebounding. Parker said he needed to step up in this category. Well, he seemed to practice what he preached. He was clearly an active and willing rebounder throughout. I believe he had 9 or 10. But we need a lot lot more help in this category. Not sure how to accomplish this as we are definitely undersized against a team with height like Kansas.

I'll let this one marinate for now. It stings, but we played reasonably well for most of the game. I find myself unable to be supremely upset about this one - but upset, yes.

We'll be ok. But definitely areas for improvement.

- Chillin

Billy Dat
11-13-2013, 01:21 AM
I think our "big" lineup of Quinn-Sheed-Rodney-Jabari-Amile would do a lot better or at least have the potential to do much better than our 3-guard lineup. At least it would avoid the "Tyler on Wiggins" possibility.

When the game was in the balance with about 5 mins left, this line-up was on the floor ready to battle it out. I can't remember what made K put Thornton back in. I am with those who think it should be the starting line-up.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 01:22 AM
Hypothetical: Imagine if had Wiggins rather than Parker in this game.

I honestly don't think a Wiggins led Duke team would have been nearly as competitive. Wiggins may well end up being the better player in a few years, but at this point I don't think he is capable of putting a team on his back, like Parker showed tonight.

On the other hand, if Kansas had Parker, they would have beat us by 20 tonight. I'm glad we have Parker.

CDu
11-13-2013, 01:28 AM
Hypothetical: Imagine if had Wiggins rather than Parker in this game.

I honestly don't think a Wiggins led Duke team would have been nearly as competitive. Wiggins may well end up being the better player in a few years, but at this point I don't think he is capable of putting a team on his back, like Parker showed tonight.

On the other hand, if Kansas had Parker, they would have beat us by 20 tonight. I'm glad we have Parker.

That's not really a fair comparison. Parker is even more valuable to us because he is our only interior presence.

Both are fantastic players, and both are critical to their team's success.

CDu
11-13-2013, 01:30 AM
When the game was in the balance with about 5 mins left, this line-up was on the floor ready to battle it out. I can't remember what made K put Thornton back in. I am with those who think it should be the starting line-up.

It should absolutely be the starting lineup, and we should see it for at least 15-20 mpg. Filter in bodies as needed, but those are our best options.

I know Coach loves him some Thornton, but I really do fear the new rules minimize his value on the floor.

dmac2681
11-13-2013, 01:31 AM
We all this wasted time dribbling, shooting, passing the ball, and the like? I mean, I tuned in to watch a free-throw shooting contest, but it was interrupted several times by people playing basketball!


Cut out the middleman. Just start at one free throw line, have them shoot a couple, then walk down to the other end and have the other team shoot a couple. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Totally agree with this! A whistle every 5-10 seconds! There's a reason I don't watch pro basketball much. This is one of those reasons.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 01:34 AM
That's not really a fair comparison. Parker is even more valuable to us because he is our only interior presence.

Both are fantastic players, and both are critical to their team's success.

I think it's plenty fair, and fun to imagine to boot. Parker was easily the most NBA-ready player on the court tonight. I don't think there's a doubt that he did things tonight that Wiggins can't do at this point. The maturity level/basketball i.q. is also higher.

This guy gets that... espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/89894/five-things-kansas-duke

JPtheGame
11-13-2013, 01:35 AM
Free throws.
Tough match up for us specifically and a very talented KU team overall and if we shoot free throws at a reasonable rate, we are working with a 6-8 pt lead down the stretch as opposed to the back and forth game we saw until Jabari fouled out.
I can live with that and it's obvious we have a lot of room to grow.
Going to be a fun year.

CDu
11-13-2013, 01:38 AM
I think it's plenty fair, and fun to imagine to boot. Parker was easily the most NBA-ready player on the court tonight. I don't think there's a doubt that he did things tonight that Wiggins can't do at this point. The maturity level/basketball i.q. is also higher.

Is Parker more polished? Absolutely. Is it a fair comparison? Nope. You're comparing apples to pears. We have a glaring need for a big body. Switching Parker for Wiggins just magnifies that size difference.

Parker is certainly more polished right now. But Wiggins' athleticism edge basically offsets that.

Kedsy
11-13-2013, 01:39 AM
It's November, but I don't think that our guys are going to get taller by March.


Well, our big lineup wasn't exactly stopping their big lineup, either. Interior defense and rebounding is likely to be a problem we face throughout the season. Thankfully we don't face too many teams as good as Kansas. But when we do, we're going to need a lot of masking agent.

Except Kansas barely played their big lineup. They went small to counter us (Self admitted as much in his post-game interview). Ellis is 6'8", 225, not significantly bigger than Amile at 6'9, 210. Black played 6 minutes. Traylor played 13 minutes. Embiid scored 2 points. In fact, Embiid, Traylor, and Black got 6 points, combined. So their points in the paint didn't happen because they were bigger. And they outrebounded us mostly because SF Wiggins and SG Selden each got a bunch of rebounds and our C Amile only had 2.

Looking even deeper, Ellis/Traylor/Embiid/Black combined for 74 minutes and scored 30 points. Jabari/Amile/Josh/Alex/Marshall combined for 74 minutes and scored 44 points. Our bigs way outscored their bigs. Unfortunately, Wiggins/Selden/Mason/Tharpe/Greene/White played 125 minutes and scored 64 points while Rodney/Quinn/Tyler/Rasheed/Matt played 126 minutes and scored 37 points, so their perimeter dominated ours.

So I'm not sure I buy the interior defense as the major issue, although our overall defense was not so good and obviously we could have used more help when Wiggins, Selden, and Mason slashed into the paint.

Also, if anyone bought into Coach K's declaration that he's going deeper into the bench this season, this game should give you pause. Only 6 Duke players got double-figure minutes.

kAzE
11-13-2013, 01:44 AM
Also, if anyone bought into Coach K's declaration that he's going deeper into the bench this season, this game should give you pause. Only 6 Duke players got double-figure minutes.

Which will kill you when they call 29 fouls on your team. We better either figure out how to play defense without fouling or start going deeper into the bench. I thought Ojeleye could have helped us in that game. He's a big athletic kid who can jump and grab boards . . . I dunno.

smvalkyries
11-13-2013, 01:50 AM
Totally apart from the game tonight I really hope the new rule interpretation gets toned down fast. Right now my true love, college basketball, is virtually unwatchable. Not only are players not allowed to defend drives and charges non-existent but the game is chopped up every minute and a half with an unseen foul.
I see many are concerned with whether these new rules help Duke or hurt us, I guess a little of both by making standstill size much more important but also by emphasizing slashing offensive play. What bothers me more is that it will dictate how a team has to play- and to me it doesn't emulate the NBA at all even pre playoff style. Unless the rules are relaxed I think the NCAA will wind up killing the golden goose of televised college basketball. My take is that audience ratings will drop rather precipitously watching nothing but no contact court sprinting or choppy free throw contests. Basketball is or used to be a contact sport played by hardnosed warriers- it is not soccer without a goal tender LOL. Give defenders a chance- stop calling every play like Magic Johnson does when he is down at the end of a playground game.
Apart from that I congratulate Kansas on out playing us tonight and hope we get to play them again in April.

duke09hms
11-13-2013, 01:51 AM
Except Kansas barely played their big lineup. They went small to counter us (Self admitted as much in his post-game interview). Ellis is 6'8", 225, not significantly bigger than Amile at 6'9, 210. Black played 6 minutes. Traylor played 13 minutes. Embiid scored 2 points. In fact, Embiid, Traylor, and Black got 6 points, combined. So their points in the paint didn't happen because they were bigger. And they outrebounded us mostly because SF Wiggins and SG Selden each got a bunch of rebounds and our C Amile only had 2.

Looking even deeper, Ellis/Traylor/Embiid/Black combined for 74 minutes and scored 30 points. Jabari/Amile/Josh/Alex/Marshall combined for 74 minutes and scored 44 points. Our bigs way outscored their bigs. Unfortunately, Wiggins/Selden/Mason/Tharpe/Greene/White played 125 minutes and scored 64 points while Rodney/Quinn/Tyler/Rasheed/Matt played 126 minutes and scored 37 points, so their perimeter dominated ours.

So I'm not sure I buy the interior defense as the major issue, although our overall defense was not so good and obviously we could have used more help when Wiggins, Selden, and Mason slashed into the paint.

Also, if anyone bought into Coach K's declaration that he's going deeper into the bench this season, this game should give you pause. Only 6 Duke players got double-figure minutes.

By big lineup he meant Quinn-Sheed-Rodney-Jabari-Amile instead of our small lineup of Quinn-Tyler-Sheed-Rodney-Jabari. The size/athletic deficiency of the latter lineup is too easily exploited by a team like Kansas. The bigger backcourt of Quinn-Sheed-Rodney may also help offset the rebounding deficiencies of Quinn-Tyler-Sheed.

CDu
11-13-2013, 01:54 AM
Also, if anyone bought into Coach K's declaration that he's going deeper into the bench this season, this game should give you pause. Only 6 Duke players got double-figure minutes.

Color me not surprised at all. Old habits die hard, and it has long been Coack K's habit to shorten the bench in close games. No reason to expect any different.

I would also note that the bench got squeezed even more in the second half, where basically only six guys saw the floor until Parker fouled out.


Which will kill you when they call 29 fouls on your team. We better either figure out how to play defense without fouling or start going deeper into the bench.

Yeah, I hope this is a learning opportunity for the coaches. It is important to remember that they have to adapt to the new rules too. Hopefully the staff figures out that we probably need to play a few more minutes of bench guys to minimize foul trouble and save legs for closing time.

I am not saying we need 10 guys averaging 10+ minutes. But getting a few more minutes' rest midway through the second half would likely have helped Hood and Parker a LOT. They looked gassed.

DBFAN
11-13-2013, 02:10 AM
I hate bringing this up, but I worry about what kind of impact this made on Okafor and Jones

kAzE
11-13-2013, 02:15 AM
I hate bringing this up, but I worry about what kind of impact this made on Okafor and Jones

Well, at least Okafor doesn't need to worry about having a prominent role if he goes to Duke. We sure could have used his size and rebounding tonight.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 02:16 AM
I thought Rodney was rather passive in this game. He deferred to others when he was fully capable of getting his shot.

He will definitely need to be more aggressive for us to be successful.

-bdbd
11-13-2013, 02:18 AM
I hate bringing this up, but I worry about what kind of impact this made on Okafor and Jones

Can't really see the outcome of a single game having a significant impact on their decisions either way. I'd look more to the style of play and coaching and how they perceive it might suit them.

Overall, let's not forget that this was an early-season game against another FF-caliber opponent, in which the game was still a single point margin down to the final 5 minutes. Really not cause for concern. We have some things to address, starting free-throw shooting and defensing in this odd new reffing alignment. But we will still be quite good and probably will win 28+ and be a serious threat in the NCAAT. Also, keep in mind how young we are and how different we'll be in five months. NO NEED TO OBSESS HERE GANG.

Troublemaker
11-13-2013, 02:31 AM
It was a bit frustrating to watch that game.

I actually thought Duke played well. I'm grading on a curve, and accounting for the fact that it was just our second game of the season, going against a talented top 5 team, and I know that our defense in Game #2 is not where it'll be in Game #40. Given all that, I thought we played a good game, one where we were winning the speed vs size tradeoff, and it should have resulted in a 10-point Duke win or thereabouts, except we didn't hit our free throws, especially in that first half. If we had just shot FTs around 70% including hitting some of those 1-and-1s we missed in the first half, we would've had a nice working margin at halftime that could've been nursed to victory by dribble-driving them to death in the second half. I felt we had the better team for much of the game but we kept blowing our chances at the line to have a working margin, and then finally, from an even level, Kansas played the last two minutes of the game much better than Duke.

Yes, we were scored on inside and yes, we were outrebounded, but Duke wins this game relatively comfortably if we had shot FTs like a team full of excellent perimeter players should. So, yeah, a bit frustrating to watch.

Where to go from here? We need to flip one of these weaknesses into a strength: (1) FT shooting (2) Rebounding (3) Post Defense

As I wrote somewhere else, Duke this season would've been a very good team even if Rebounding and Post Defense were mediocre because we're so talented in virtually every other area. But Free Throws should've been in the Positive column, and when that flipped over to the Negative column, that makes it extremely tough to win against high-level opponents. This game demonstrated that. We need to flip FTs back to Positive or flip something else to compensate.

kAzE
11-13-2013, 02:41 AM
One positive note I think we can all agree came from this game was that Sulaimon is clearly playing at a higher level than last year, and, by all indications, should become the starter over Thornton going forward. In the 2nd half of the game, he showed that he's gotten better at creating his own offense off the dribble, and now has gotten stronger and better at finishing in the paint.

With these new rules, you just can't afford to have a guy who is a non-threat to slash towards the basket and draw fouls. You need as many guys who can get in the paint as possible, and with a lineup of Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Sulaimon, and Cook, there's 5 guys who are all a threat to pile up fouls on the opposing team. That's just a huge advantage we're going to have against most teams.

I'm not even sure if shooting a wide open 3 is worth it anymore. It's way more beneficial to drive at the rim and get the automatic call every time, since it creates foul problems for the opponent. Now, if we could just hit some free throws . . .

P.S. I also agree that the new rules basically make Josh Hairston obsolete. Very sad.

Freethrw33
11-13-2013, 03:45 AM
One positive note I think we can all agree came from this game was that Sulaimon is clearly playing at a higher level than last year, and, by all indications, should become the starter over Thornton going forward.

I disagree that Sulaimon should automatically start over Thornton even if Sulaimon is the better player. As long as egos are in check, starting is much less relevant than minutes played, and tonight Sulaimon played 28 minutes while Thornton played 20. It's best to leave firepower on the bench to start in order to balance the scoring once the starters need their first breathers or pick-up fouls.

That being said, really hoping that at least one other option (Dawkins, Jones, Murphy, Ojeleye, Marshall) develops. For instance, if Dawkins could provide the spark as the 6th man, then Sulaimon could start, and Thornton would have reduced minutes and back-up Cook.

Agree with others that the new enforcement of the rules really hurts Thornton and Hairston.

lotusland
11-13-2013, 06:47 AM
Totally different game if we make just 65% of our free throws. The final score is not indicative of the game, just the last 90 seconds.

We're watching college basketball change before our eyes here. The teams with the bigger, stronger, longer, quicker players will be at a tremendous advantage because all you have to do is either drive or give a solid entry pass into the post and a foul will be called (or the player will score). Teams can no longer play "hard-nosed D" to compensate for a lack of size and athleticism. Some people obviously think this is a positive development for college basketball. I'm not so sure. I think it accelerates the game toward an NBA-style of play and increases the stakes of the recruiting arms race for extreme athletes.

I also think not calling charges is counter productive. It's good that there will be less reaching and holding but you should not be penalized for good position and moving your feet

noworries
11-13-2013, 07:01 AM
Really would've liked to see semi last night for defensive purposes...certainly couldn't have hurt to give him a go at wiggins in the 2nd half...

NSDukeFan
11-13-2013, 07:04 AM
Amile has really impressed me out of the gate. I was surprised when coach named him a starter early on, but he deserves it. He has really nice hands inside and takes the ball so strong to the hoop when he has a big guy guarding him on the perimeter. I really enjoy watching Jabari play.

jv001
11-13-2013, 07:13 AM
Well, this game illustrated quite clearly the weaknesses of this team:
1. Very poor interior defense.
2. Very poor rebounding team.
3. Very poor free throw shooting.

I think we're going to struggle with #1 and #2 against any good teams all season. Hopefully we can improve on #3, but that remains to be seen.

For everyone who suggested all summer that we can mitigate our defensive weakness by fronting the post, this game was a terrific example of the flaws in that strategy: (1) you are very susceptible to the lob, and (2) if a team makes a perimeter pass, you are then out of position to defend the post entry pass from a new angle. Kansas exploited our fronting defense much of the night, which resulted in numerous layups/dunks.

We're either going to have to figure out how to defend the post better or we're going to have to be an overwhelming defensive team on the perimeter. So far, we've not accomplished either of those things.

We're a very good team, and we're going to have better days. But this game does not exactly instill confidence for our title hopes.

I have not read the rest of the posts, but this one sums up my take on the game and how we might improve going forward. Don't front the post, too easy to make that pass. Work on those free throws. With the new rules and Duke's ability to drive the ball, we'll have plenty of trips to the line. Josh's value has gone down because of the block/charge call. I would have liked to see what Semi could have done against Ellis. Very good Duke team, but lot's to work on. Next play! GoDuke!

roywhite
11-13-2013, 07:46 AM
Late games -- ugh.

Toward the latter part of the second half, I ran out of gas about the same time the team did.

wgl1228
11-13-2013, 08:00 AM
Not the biggest Michael Wilbon fan but check this out from his article this morning:

"But Parker is the best player in basketball; not the best freshman, the best player. All the people who jumped off the Parker bandwagon when his foot was injured last year and his numbers plummeted and his weight (allegedly) soared need to apply for space back aboard the bandwagon. This isn't about the final score, that Kansas won the game, beating Duke 94-83. Not in November. It's about first impressions and wondering whether they'll be lasting impressions. There's nothing Parker doesn't do really, really well. He can play all the frontcourt positions and shoot the 3-ball like a 2-guard. He absolutely commands double-teams defensively, and finds teammates with ease. He can play way above the rim but has the fundamentals of a kid with lesser talent who's affixed to the floor. He scored 19 points in the first half against a Kansas team that's probably Final Four good. Hey, Andrew Wiggins is a highlight machine, and he'll get better playing for Bill Self, just the way he stepped it up Tuesday night after intermission. But if you're asking me off what we've seen so far whether its Wiggins or Parker, I'm going to tell you it's Parker in a landslide. And we'll delve further to Mr. Jabari Parker in a moment."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9969339/college-basketball-needed-night-champions-classic

Saratoga2
11-13-2013, 08:02 AM
I too dislike the way the game will be officiated for at least this year. I dislike seeing the fouls getting called even when the defense has been good.

Kansas also is a young talented team but they shot their free throws well and got into driving and dishing to the post more than we did or tried to do. Their free throw shooting was very good across the board. I find it difficult to believe their team was recruited for their free throw shooting, which means it must have been coached into them. Our free throw shooting really hurt during the game and will be a sore spot unless we find a way to correct it.

Jabari was wonderful including his free throw shooting, but we will have to play more guys to keep him from fouling out. Both he and Rodney had four fouls and were really backiing off on defense toward the end.

Amile also had a good game and will be a plus for us all year. I agree that Rodney, while good, could have been a little more agressive offensively.

I thought our end of game shot selection was poor.

All in all, we have a lot of talent but are vulnerable on the boards, having our key guys pick up fouls and with poor free throw shooting. Lets hope the team can learn from this game and start the process of improving. That will mean that the coaches will need to adapt to the new realities and rules.

MCFinARL
11-13-2013, 08:11 AM
When the game was in the balance with about 5 mins left, this line-up was on the floor ready to battle it out. I can't remember what made K put Thornton back in. I am with those who think it should be the starting line-up.

I thought this was odd as well. IIRC, Thornton came in for Jefferson; right before that, I remember seeing a brief shot of Jefferson in which it looked like there might be a little bit of blood on his lip, but the camera cut away too fast for me to be sure--maybe Jefferson had to go to the bench to get blood cleaned off? Just a guess though.

Ichabod Drain
11-13-2013, 08:14 AM
We missed 12 free throws. Lost by 11.

KU missed 8 free throws. Won by 11.

DUKIE V(A)
11-13-2013, 08:16 AM
I thought THE key to ultimate outcome of the game was:

Three quality foul DUKE shooters missing the front end of one-and-ones in the last 10 minutes of the first half (Hood, Quinn, Sheed) and then four more missed free throws right at the end of the first half (by Jones and Josh). That's ten potential points of which I think we could typically count on about seven or maybe eight. We got zero. Our foul shooting was not only poor stats wise, but the timing of the misses was bad. Missing those front ends in particular was almost like missing two free throws in one, hurt momentum, and limited our ability to stretch the lead at half. Meanwhile Kansas made their free throws all night long. Credit to them.

Still, lots of good and I remain bullish on this team. Duke can score the ball against anybody, and this loss will help Coach K drive home the point that our guys need to get more committed defensively if the team is indeed going to be great.

I believe players and teams will adjust to the new rules. Ultimately, these rules will benefit Duke as we have a ton of penetrators and it is easier to foul out quality bigs. Plus, we have smart players and Coach K and his staff are masters at adjusting...

rthomas
11-13-2013, 08:23 AM
Was Coach K's strategy of Thornton defending Wiggins in the post for 3 or 4 plays to send a subtle message to Okafor?

NashvilleDevil
11-13-2013, 08:27 AM
KU missed 8 free throws. Won by 11.

Duke's misses were at key points when they could have extended the lead in the first half. I think at one point in the second half Kansas made 12 in row while not making a field goal.

CharlestonDevil
11-13-2013, 09:00 AM
1) Not just the overall free throw shooting, but specifically the early misses hurt us. We need to play with a lead (see poor defense) because playing from behind made us very timid on the defensive end with everyone scared of getting a touch foul.

2) As phenomenal as Parker was he still made freshman mistakes. His 5th foul on the Wiggins dunk wasn't a good decision and the fake behind the back pass was extremely costly. It's a given that all freshmen have to adjust and will make poor decisions at times so we can't expect Parker to be any different. Having said that, if someone is going to take a bad shot I want it to be him.

3) The potential I saw last night outweighed the negatives. And that is saying a lot.

Channing
11-13-2013, 09:00 AM
I think its going to be a fun year ... the team has all the tools. Jefferson looks like a completely different player. I know there was a lot of talk from Dickie V about him getting a lot of pts hanging around the rim and getting dump offs, but I think he showed last night he can excel attacking the rim as well, especially from that high post position.

What struck me was that the fouls at the end of the game REALLY got in our head. It appeared that we completely stopped running any form of offense, and it was just whoever had the ball try and drive and get fouled. It worked for a little while, and Sheed played that role well, but proved unsustainable.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes to adjust to the new hand checking rules because it really damaged the flow of last nights game.

dukepsy1963
11-13-2013, 09:07 AM
Is it me, but will the new rules make games longer?

I don't like the new rules...slows the action, inside game is not as "fun" to watch as before..:(

Team needs to consistently "play together"

We will win many, many games....

oldnavy
11-13-2013, 09:08 AM
Not unhappy with the loss anymore than I would normally be. Lots of positives and lots to work on, but it is November, so... not going into panic monkey mode.

BUT, I have to say that watching games called like this is going to significantly hurt the game. First, the games already run too long with TV timeouts etc..., now with fouls called less than a minute apart add another 30 minutes to each game. The game was scheduled for a 9:30 tip on a weeknight, which is already borderline late for us older working class folks, but what time did it actually tip off??? Well after 10 or so, I went to bed after the Jabari phantom foul at the end, but I believe it was close to midnight at that point...

Honestly, I am not so sure I understand what they are trying to "fix" with these new rules. Why is the natural reaction to most any problem in American is to create a new rule or law??? Just enforce the ones we have. As a ref, if you think a player is getting too physical on the block call the flipping foul. Do we really need a rule that says the defender cannot have his arm on the back of the offensive player??? My understanding from Jay Bilas last night was that the defender can still put his body on the offensive player, but without that arm as a bit of a buffer zone, it is going to start to get a little weird looking if you ask me..... also, I am not so sure that if I am an offensive player that I would rather have a defender "body" me up without the arm personally.... yuk!!! OK off point a bit, but I hope you get my drift.

Also, I am not whining in the sense that we got hosed by the calls, KU got called for as many if not more than we did.

Yes, we need to get better at FT shooting, and I think we will, but I also think that there needs to be less overall FT shooting in the games in general. FT are not exciting basketball.

When the refs are dictating the pace of the game, and games are lasting past midnight, I think we have a problem with the watch ability of the game. Hopefully there will be some adjustments and things loosen back up a bit, otherwise, I am going to be missing a lot of games this year.... just can't stand to watch whistle fests.

Ichabod Drain
11-13-2013, 09:13 AM
Duke's misses were at key points when they could have extended the lead in the first half. I think at one point in the second half Kansas made 12 in row while not making a field goal.

I was just pointing out you can't simply say we would have won had we made all our free throws.

ETA: On another note Jabari looked seriously agitated by the loss in post-game. I Like this kid a lot.

UrinalCake
11-13-2013, 09:24 AM
Except Kansas barely played their big lineup. They went small to counter us (Self admitted as much in his post-game interview).

Great post, and I was going to say something similar. Their bigs didn't dominate us in the post. Ellis hurt us from all over (I guess it's debatable whether you consider him a "big") and their guards outplayed ours.

During the first half I was really wary of Parker wearing down, as he's stated himself that his conditioning isn't where it needs to be, and was hoping K would save him for the end of the game. But I guess it's hard to sit someone when they're playing so well.

Despite all of our flaws and mistakes, this was a tie game with just a couple minutes to go. We have the potential to beat anyone but definitely have a lot to work on.

arnie
11-13-2013, 09:27 AM
One positive note I think we can all agree came from this game was that Sulaimon is clearly playing at a higher level than last year, and, by all indications, should become the starter over Thornton going forward. In the 2nd half of the game, he showed that he's gotten better at creating his own offense off the dribble, and now has gotten stronger and better at finishing in the paint.

With these new rules, you just can't afford to have a guy who is a non-threat to slash towards the basket and draw fouls. You need as many guys who can get in the paint as possible, and with a lineup of Jefferson, Parker, Hood, Sulaimon, and Cook, there's 5 guys who are all a threat to pile up fouls on the opposing team. That's just a huge advantage we're going to have against most teams.

I'm not even sure if shooting a wide open 3 is worth it anymore. It's way more beneficial to drive at the rim and get the automatic call every time, since it creates foul problems for the opponent. Now, if we could just hit some free throws . . .

P.S. I also agree that the new rules basically make Josh Hairston obsolete. Very sad.

The rules definitely hurt Hairston defensively, but they shouldn't prevent him from rebounding (he doesn't have a single rebound in the 1st 2 games). Coupled with poor rebounding from Amile in these same 2 games, we really need improvement from Plumlee. Without it, board differential against high quality teams with good rebounders will be inordinately huge - even for a Duke team. Of course, last night our interior defense was not as good as normal; but believe we will defend better as season progresses.

For those that don't seem concerned if we don't land a big man (should Okafor commit to Kansas) next year, where will the rebounding come from? It would be great if Parker stays another year, just don't see it happening.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 09:29 AM
I was just pointing out you can't simply say we would have won had we made all our free throws.

ETA: On another note Jabari looked seriously agitated by the loss in post-game. I Like this kid a lot.

Why not? We are in total control of the points at the free throw line. There are no defenders to worry about. Just you, the, ball and the basket. We do not control how Kansas shoots free throws, so if we make our shots at the stripe we would have had the lead. Would the game have been different if we were potentially ahead towards the end ahead based on made free throws? Yeah, but any coach will point to the final margin of victory and tell his team that they left enough freebies out there to have won the game.

The point is that there are always rebounds, free throws, missed layups etc. that really standout as key stats/moments in close games. It goes without saying that getting a key rebound would have affected Kansas' game plan, defense so as to change the game, but coach wouldn't worry about what Kansas would have done. He points at the tape and says, "we needed this rebound and that point-blank layup." In the press conference afterwords, K mentioned that we missed a lot of foul shots. He even increased the amount of points we could have scored up to 16, because we missed the front end of one-and-ones.

roywhite
11-13-2013, 09:32 AM
Hard to say we missed much by not getting Tarik Black, at least based on performance last night.

He started, played 6 minutes, 0 points, and 3 fouls.

kAzE
11-13-2013, 09:32 AM
Not the biggest Michael Wilbon fan but check this out from his article this morning:

"But Parker is the best player in basketball; not the best freshman, the best player. All the people who jumped off the Parker bandwagon when his foot was injured last year and his numbers plummeted and his weight (allegedly) soared need to apply for space back aboard the bandwagon. This isn't about the final score, that Kansas won the game, beating Duke 94-83. Not in November. It's about first impressions and wondering whether they'll be lasting impressions. There's nothing Parker doesn't do really, really well. He can play all the frontcourt positions and shoot the 3-ball like a 2-guard. He absolutely commands double-teams defensively, and finds teammates with ease. He can play way above the rim but has the fundamentals of a kid with lesser talent who's affixed to the floor. He scored 19 points in the first half against a Kansas team that's probably Final Four good. Hey, Andrew Wiggins is a highlight machine, and he'll get better playing for Bill Self, just the way he stepped it up Tuesday night after intermission. But if you're asking me off what we've seen so far whether its Wiggins or Parker, I'm going to tell you it's Parker in a landslide. And we'll delve further to Mr. Jabari Parker in a moment."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9969339/college-basketball-needed-night-champions-classic

I actually like Wilbon, I think he's one of the more genuine talking heads out there, but he's such a Chicago homer. You have to take anything he says about a Chicago team or a Chicago product with a pound of salt. I'm a Duke homer, so naturally, I agree that Jabari looks like the player of the year so far, but I'm sure there are a number of other guys who are going to be there in that discussion. McDermott comes to mind at the moment, and I wouldn't sleep on Wiggins or Randle, those kids can play. Those 3 guys are maybe the best trio of freshmen to come into college since before the 1 and done rule was instated. It's gonna be an exciting year.

kAzE
11-13-2013, 09:34 AM
Hard to say we missed much by not getting Tarik Black, at least based on performance last night.

He started, played 6 minutes, 0 points, and 3 fouls.

Agreed, we saved a scholarship there.

TexHawk
11-13-2013, 09:55 AM
Hard to say we missed much by not getting Tarik Black, at least based on performance last night.

He started, played 6 minutes, 0 points, and 3 fouls.

Black picked up 2 fouls in the first two minutes of the 1st half, which put him on the bench until the 2nd half. This is a Bill Self rule, which he also applied to Wiggins and Tharpe after their 2nd fouls. Black picked up his 3rd foul 30 seconds into that 2nd half. He was subbed out after that, then never saw the floor again. By that point, the game had a flow, and he's not a gazelle like Embiid, or a scorer like Ellis. Not surprised at all with his lack of minutes.

He's just struggling to play post defense without his forearms. He's still valuable, as depth is going to be super-important this year.


Agreed, we saved a scholarship there.

Saved a scholarship? He's a one year transfer. Did you pick up someone in April that you wouldn't have with Black on your roster? (You may have, I don't know.)

BlueDevilCorvette!
11-13-2013, 09:57 AM
The way I see it, Duke has the potential to be a terrific team despite the weaknesses many posters have pointed out. Rodney Hood didn't have a great game and this was only his 2nd game wearing the D-U-K-E on his chest under primetime lights. However, with each game he is only going to become more of a headache for opposing defenses. Now in the midst of all the discussion about the negatives, one positive is the offensive output of Amile Jefferson, 17 points. He pretty much has that spin move to the basket for a quick lay-up down pack. Even though he isn't much of a banger, the guy just doesn't back down. He had his shot blocked a couple of times but was never swayed to stop going hard. His alley-oop flush amongst the trees was very encouraging. As the season progresses, I do hope to see Dawkins and Semi get some meaningful minutes, particularly when we play teams similar to Kansas. I'm not dwelling on this early season loss, Duke will get better. Just think, had we won, all the Duke haters would be declaring "Duke has already peaked" now on the contrary, Duke lost and the potential to peak by March (or sooner) is well within range! GO DUKE!

Kedsy
11-13-2013, 10:20 AM
I hate bringing this up, but I worry about what kind of impact this made on Okafor and Jones

Reportedly they made their decisions over the weekend. You think this game would have changed their minds?

jipops
11-13-2013, 10:22 AM
Hard to say we missed much by not getting Tarik Black, at least based on performance last night.

He started, played 6 minutes, 0 points, and 3 fouls.

I was thinking the same thing after the game. If we did have Tarik, I don't think we would be any different as a team and he would probably see about as much time as Marshall is now. Defensively he had a lot of problems coming over for help and didn't appear to offer anything on the offensive end. He probably does have some rebounding ability but hard to rebound when you can't keep yourself on the floor.

I truly believe we're a better team, or at least will ultimately be, than the one we lost to last night. Cook didn't play very well and defensively we have not come together at all. Are we better than either of the teams in the first game? Not so sure about that.

FerryFor50
11-13-2013, 10:22 AM
Reportedly they made their decisions over the weekend. You think this game would have changed their minds?

I think that the legendary FT defense played by Kansas might have swayed them...

dyedwab
11-13-2013, 10:27 AM
Cook didn't play very well and defensively we have not come together at all.

I believe that these are related issues. Our perimeter defense was not very good, we didn't turn them over much, and our half court sets seemed to start with Parker at the FT line. Quinn playing better pressure defense will, hopefully, open the floor open for him to be a playmaker (for himself or teammates) on the offensive end.

TexHawk
11-13-2013, 10:41 AM
Reportedly they made their decisions over the weekend. You think this game would have changed their minds?

From last night...

Jason Jordan ‏@JayJayUSATODAY 12h
Tyus Jones tells me that he has NOT made up his mind yet. "I know people won't believe that, but that's fine." Jones Blog coming soon...

alteran
11-13-2013, 10:42 AM
<snip>

1) The new emphasis (read: rules) makes it difficult to guard slashing teams. I think we all hope that we are a slashing team, so this shouldn't necessarily be a negative for us moving forward. But at times it really seemed to be a negative. Just generally. There were plays where the refs called this game as if you weren't allowed to guard. I say that with full recognition of our defense not being impressive tonight. But there were just plays where I watched both Kansas and us move, a foul called, and just asking "What?". And not "What?" in the normal "Where was that foul?!" kind of way. More like "Is that really not allowed?" kind of way.

I fully agree with the new emphasis as a good move for the sport...in theory. But basketball is a contact sport. There needs to be allowable bumping in the right context. I didn't see a consistent contextual application of these rules. I'll chalk it up to my game-watch atmosphere for now.
<snip>

Yeah, adjusting to the new regime is going to take awhile.

I also thought the new rules would be a good thing for MCBB. The sport had gotten ugly. I think there's too much block/charge, as good as that has been for Duke over the years.

But yowzer have they flipped the dial.

There were multiple instances of offensive players jumping into defenders just standing there-- sometimes not even focused on the player with the ball, but another assignment-- and the defenders getting charged. In a rational world, that's an offensive foul, or at worst incidental contact. And I completely lost track of how many times a defender was completely vertical and got called for a foul when an offensive player went into their space.

There's been a lot of angst about our "poor interior defense," but when you're guilty of fouling by just being there and having been run into... well, what, exactly, are you supposed to do? It didn't look to me like Kansas was doing any better defending (except grabbing rebounds).

Under this rules regime, it's hard to see how a team behind in the closing minutes can "lock down" and eek out a possession or two. The leading team should just move the ball around or drive. There's no possibility of a charge, and if the defense attempts to slow you down they'll get fouls.

FWIW, I thought the officiating was basically even, although maybe Kansas got a string of calls at the end on both sides of the floor. (Maybe not, I'm biased.) And, for what it's worth, I don't think either team really adjusted well to the style of officiating, although Kansas did better than we did. For the life of me, I couldn't see why both teams weren't just driving into the teeth of the opponent's most critical player over and over.

Ultimately I think we're going to adjust. I haven't looked at the box score, but we most have quietly done something right to stay as close as we did with our horrid free-throw shooting and arguably worse rebounding.

COYS
11-13-2013, 10:43 AM
Honestly, it's hard for me to be too upset about the result. Don't get me wrong. I hate it when Duke loses any game. But it's just November. We beat Louisville early in the season last year, as I know everyone recalls, and that had no bearing on our second meeting with them in March.

Anyway, our interior defense was poor because our perimeter defense was poor. We allowed easy passing angles to the guards and were way too slow on rotations. At this point in the season, not one of the forwards are good at hedging on ball screens. Josh got beaten a number of times by the opposing guard while trying to hedge, which was surprising to see as I thought he would be the best at that task. Jabari and Amile were also mediocre hedging on ball screens. This made it insanely easy for Selden to get into the lane and cause us major problems.

Jabari is awesome, but so is Wiggins. Personally, I thought he was more skilled than the reports had indicated. He's going to become a pretty incredible player. That being said, Jabari looks really incredible. He's far quicker and bouncier than he appeared coming off his foot injury. He might not have the most insane vertical leap of all time, but he certainly got up for that lop from Quinn! His handle is also truly impressive for a guy his size. The biggest area for improvement for him is going to be conditioning. He clearly tired a bit in the second half. I think a more energetic Jabari in the second half may have made a difference in the game.

Our offense is capable of being the best in the nation, no doubt. We just gotta shore up that free throw shooting. I hope we're capable of that.

I'm not one to obsess about rebounding, but quite frankly, we need Amile and the guards to rebound more. Rasheed has generally been a pretty decent rebounder for a guard but only pulled down 2 last night. Quinn has actually posted impressive numbers for such a short player, but he also only pulled down 2. Finally, Amile played 26 minutes but only grabbed 2 boards. Kansas didn't miss too many shots, but it's still gotta be a point of emphasis for Amile, Rasheed, Quinn, and Rodney to pull down a few more boards, collectively. In a game that was as close as this one, preventing 2-3 more offensive boards could have made a big difference.

Finally, this team is just plain fun to watch. They are explosive on offense in the most entertaining way with Rodney, Amile, Jabari, Rasheed and even Quinn capable of some impressive and acrobatic drives to the basket. Gotta get the defensive end figured out though! Otherwise, this could be a special year.

roywhite
11-13-2013, 10:44 AM
I believe that these are related issues. Our perimeter defense was not very good, we didn't turn them over much, and our half court sets seemed to start with Parker at the FT line. Quinn playing better pressure defense will, hopefully, open the floor open for him to be a playmaker (for himself or teammates) on the offensive end.

Based on some of these points, I wonder if we'll see a lineup like this for a good period of time:
Sulaimon
Matt Jones
Rodney Hood
Jabari
Amile

Best defensive combination? Some improvement in rebounding?
As noted, Jabari is very capable in setting up the offense

Cook can add a lot with good playmaking, ball pressure, outside shooting, and an occasional drive, but if he's not playing well, the above combo could work well.

oldnavy
11-13-2013, 10:49 AM
Yeah, adjusting to the new regime is going to take awhile.

I also thought the new rules would be a good thing for MCBB. The sport had gotten ugly. I think there's too much block/charge, as good as that has been for Duke over the years.

But yowzer have they flipped the dial.

There were multiple instances of offensive players jumping into defenders just standing there-- sometimes not even focused on the player with the ball, but another assignment-- and the defenders getting charged. In a rational world, that's an offensive foul, or at worst incidental contact. And I completely lost track of how many times a defender was completely vertical and got called for a foul when an offensive player went into their space.

There's been a lot of angst about our "poor interior defense," but when you're guilty of fouling by just being there and having been run into... well, what, exactly, are you supposed to do? It didn't look to me like Kansas was doing any better defending (except grabbing rebounds).

Under this rules regime, it's hard to see how a team behind in the closing minutes can "lock down" and eek out a possession or two. The leading team should just move the ball around or drive. There's no possibility of a charge, and if the defense attempts to slow you down they'll get fouls.

FWIW, I thought the officiating was basically even, although maybe Kansas got a string of calls at the end on both sides of the floor. (Maybe not, I'm biased.) And, for what it's worth, I don't think either team really adjusted well to the style of officiating, although Kansas did better than we did. For the life of me, I couldn't see why both teams weren't just driving into the teeth of the opponent's most critical player over and over.

Ultimately I think we're going to adjust. I haven't looked at the box score, but we most have quietly done something right to stay as close as we did with our horrid free-throw shooting and arguably worse rebounding.

Can you imagine watching games this year when Karl Hess is calling the games??? OMG!!! He'll probably whistle a couple of bench players for chest bumping....

Kedsy
11-13-2013, 10:51 AM
As I wrote somewhere else, Duke this season would've been a very good team even if Rebounding and Post Defense were mediocre because we're so talented in virtually every other area. But Free Throws should've been in the Positive column, and when that flipped over to the Negative column, that makes it extremely tough to win against high-level opponents. This game demonstrated that. We need to flip FTs back to Positive or flip something else to compensate.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, I don't think our post defense was the problem, or at least if you go by points it was more of a problem for Kansas. Jabari outscored Ellis and Amile had almost three times as many points as the rest of their big men combined (17 to 6).

At the risk of also repeating this, I'm not sure why anybody thought free throw shooting would be a positive for us. Rodney Hood shot 65.9% from the line in his one season. Shooting 4 for 7 is not that different from his career norm. Amile shot 61% from the line, so 3 for 6 isn't too far off, either. Josh Hairston is a career 65% FT shooter, so maybe we could have hoped for 1 out of 2 from him, but 2 free throws is such a small sample size anyway, and Matt Jones (who also only shot 2 free throws) has not looked good from the line in the few games we've played so far. The only person who shot worse from the line than he should have based on previous performance was Rasheed, who shot 2 for 4 and probably should have shot 3 for 4 (or 4 for 5 if the extra make was the front end he missed), but on the other hand we should've probably expected a miss (or two) from Jabari instead of his 5 for 5. We need to be prepared for less than 70% from the line in most games. We can hope it's not a complete liability like last night, but it's unlikely to be a strength at all this season.


Why not? We are in total control of the points at the free throw line. There are no defenders to worry about. Just you, the, ball and the basket. We do not control how Kansas shoots free throws, so if we make our shots at the stripe we would have had the lead. Would the game have been different if we were potentially ahead towards the end ahead based on made free throws? Yeah, but any coach will point to the final margin of victory and tell his team that they left enough freebies out there to have won the game.

You expect to shoot 100% from the line? That's not realistic. For this team, the best expectation we should have had was 20 of 28 instead of 16 of 28, which is only 4 points different, although the missing front ends complicates that analysis a little bit.

That said, if we only had 4 more points going into the last couple minutes (and were thus up 2 rather than down 2), the game would probably have been different at the end. Then (assuming everything else was the same), Wiggins's daggers would have put them up 2 rather than up 6. Once you're down 6 at the end of the game you have to play desperate on offense and foul on defense, leading to the final margin of 11. If it was still a one possession game after Wiggins did his thing, the game probably goes down to the wire.

CharlestonDevil
11-13-2013, 10:51 AM
but while my feelings on the outcome of this game are currently neutral, they will probably shift significantly based on the Jones/Okafor announcement Friday afternoon. All of the announcers last night picking Duke to win the game has definitely made me uneasy.

brumby041
11-13-2013, 11:05 AM
Totally apart from the game tonight I really hope the new rule interpretation gets toned down fast. Right now my true love, college basketball, is virtually unwatchable. Not only are players not allowed to defend drives and charges non-existent but the game is chopped up every minute and a half with an unseen foul.
I see many are concerned with whether these new rules help Duke or hurt us, I guess a little of both by making standstill size much more important but also by emphasizing slashing offensive play. What bothers me more is that it will dictate how a team has to play- and to me it doesn't emulate the NBA at all even pre playoff style. Unless the rules are relaxed I think the NCAA will wind up killing the golden goose of televised college basketball. My take is that audience ratings will drop rather precipitously watching nothing but no contact court sprinting or choppy free throw contests. Basketball is or used to be a contact sport played by hardnosed warriers- it is not soccer without a goal tender LOL. Give defenders a chance- stop calling every play like Magic Johnson does when he is down at the end of a playground game.
Apart from that I congratulate Kansas on out playing us tonight and hope we get to play them again in April.

You might want to revisit your thoughts on soccer - perhaps watch a game or two. Soccer is significantly more physical than basketball.

flyingdutchdevil
11-13-2013, 11:08 AM
You might want to revisit your thoughts on soccer - perhaps watch a game or two. Soccer is significantly more physical than basketball.

Absolutely, 100% agree. Soccer is incredibly physical. Watch a spot kick in slo-mo - the number of petty fouls, pulling of the jersey, hip checks, arm grabs, and holds is ridiculous.

However, I will agree that basketball has become much less physical today than it was 15-20 years ago. Shame - I really like the physicality of the sport.

gus
11-13-2013, 11:09 AM
You might want to revisit your thoughts on soccer - perhaps watch a game or two. Soccer is significantly more physical than basketball.

Yeah -- unfortunately premier class soccer is marred (in my opinion) by the very real problem of diving, and it affects how casual or non-viewers perceive the game. But that's a discussion for another thread.

azzefkram
11-13-2013, 11:09 AM
Not as bummed out by the loss as I'd thought I'd be. We played a top 5 team even for about 37 minutes and just let it slip away in the end. It appears that Amile, Jabari, Rodney, Sheed and Quinn are our best lineup but I not so sure that it should be our starting lineup. Sheed brings instant offence off the bench something neither Tyler nor Josh can do. While on the Bruise Brothers, in the off season I was worried that the rule changes would limit their effectiveness. Early on, that seems to be playing out. Hopefully one or two of the Matt-Alex-Marshall trio can earn some more minutes so the depth we thought we had going into the season will be more effective. Maybe Alex or Marshall can help with our rebounding issues. Maybe Matt can guard effectively without fouling.

While the defense (not just interior D) is a bit of a concern, I do think we should temper our expectations as to what constitutes good D. Even after a period of adjustment, these new rule changes will make it more difficult to guard people. We are a really good team with the potential to be a great team.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-13-2013, 11:12 AM
From last night...

Jason Jordan ‏@JayJayUSATODAY 12h
Tyus Jones tells me that he has NOT made up his mind yet. "I know people won't believe that, but that's fine." Jones Blog coming soon...

I don't.


but while my feelings on the outcome of this game are currently neutral, they will probably shift significantly based on the Jones/Okafor announcement Friday afternoon. All of the announcers last night picking Duke to win the game has definitely made me uneasy.

I'm confused. Are you saying that because the "experts" picked Duke to win and they didn't, that the recruiting "experts" picking Okajones to Duke may be wrong, as well? Or that because Duke lost, Okajones may lean toward Kansas now?

DukieInBrasil
11-13-2013, 11:15 AM
I really hope that K uses this game to re-evaluate his strategy and player use patterns. The rules emphasis changes really negatively impact the value that both Thornton and Hairston bring, as TT's value was hard-nosed defense and JH's was taking charges.
The new emphasis in officiating gives the premium to the slasher rather than the set-shooter and to the guy who can defend without grabbing. Neither of those is a skill in TT's wheelhouse, and both fall in favor of Sulaimon. Rasheed should start and TT should be used sparingly. If Hairston doesn't start grabbing some rebounds his value plummets to 0.
I wasn't able to watch the game, so i can't really say much about who did what, but this team certainly has the ability to improve. We won't see many teams with the size KU has, but as mentioned, it wasn't really KU's size that beat us necessarily, but our lack of defense from our guards.

Troublemaker
11-13-2013, 11:16 AM
I don't want to sound like a broken record, I don't think our post defense was the problem, or at least if you go by points it was more of a problem for Kansas. Jabari outscored Ellis and Amile had almost three times as many points as the rest of their big men combined (17 to 6).

At the risk of also repeating this, I'm not sure why anybody thought free throw shooting would be a positive for us........We need to be prepared for less than 70% from the line in most games. We can hope it's not a complete liability like last night, but it's unlikely to be a strength at all this season.

I actually agree with you about the post defense in this game. If Duke and Kansas play a close game, we should expect that they'll solidly score down low on us. Kansas is a talented top-5 team and we should not expect to shutdown their strengths. It would be like Kansas fans complaining about perimeter defense because Jabari dropped 27 or Rasheed scoring several buckets down the stretch. My point was more that if Duke is going to shoot FTs poorly, then we need to compensate in an area where we're not supposed to be great like post defense by, for example, holding Ellis to 16 points instead of 24 points, something like that. We can't be mediocre at FTs, rebounding, AND post defense against the best teams. No team is perfect, and I'm okay conceding two of the three areas, just not all three.

We still disagree on the FT shooting potential of this team, though. It doesn't look good so far, but I think Duke will start averaging 70%+ from Date X onwards. Hopefully X is within a month or so.

Kedsy
11-13-2013, 11:24 AM
I actually agree with you about the post defense in this game. If Duke and Kansas play a close game, we should expect that they'll solidly score down low on us. Kansas is a talented top-5 team and we should not expect to shutdown their strengths. It would be like Kansas fans complaining about perimeter defense because Jabari dropped 27 or Rasheed scoring several buckets down the stretch. My point was more that if Duke is going to shoot FTs poorly, then we need to compensate in an area where we're not supposed to be great like post defense by, for example, holding Ellis to 16 points instead of 24 points, something like that. We can't be mediocre at FTs, rebounding, AND post defense against the best teams. No team is perfect, and I'm okay conceding two of the three areas, just not all three.

I think the problem we can't concede is perimeter defense, or perhaps overall defense is the better way to put it. Selden and Mason hurt us pretty bad. The game was a two-point game with a minute and a half to go. If we'd tightened up our D, anywhere on the floor, just a little bit we probably would have won the game.


We still disagree on the FT shooting potential of this team, though. It doesn't look good so far, but I think Duke will start averaging 70%+ from Date X onwards. Hopefully X is within a month or so.

You may be right, but if you are it would be because several of Rodney, Amile, Josh, Tyler, Alex, and Marshall improve significantly over what they've shown so far in their careers. We can hope for that, but IMO we can't expect it.

FerryFor50
11-13-2013, 11:24 AM
I really hope that K uses this game to re-evaluate his strategy and player use patterns. The rules emphasis changes really negatively impact the value that both Thornton and Hairston bring, as TT's value was hard-nosed defense and JH's was taking charges.
The new emphasis in officiating gives the premium to the slasher rather than the set-shooter and to the guy who can defend without grabbing. Neither of those is a skill in TT's wheelhouse, and both fall in favor of Sulaimon. Rasheed should start and TT should be used sparingly. If Hairston doesn't start grabbing some rebounds his value plummets to 0.
I wasn't able to watch the game, so i can't really say much about who did what, but this team certainly has the ability to improve. We won't see many teams with the size KU has, but as mentioned, it wasn't really KU's size that beat us necessarily, but our lack of defense from our guards.

I don't think the new rules take away spot up shooters. I think it changes how you get them the ball. Rather than swinging the ball around the perimeter, spot up shooters will need to get the ball off of drives (unless a foul occurs first) or on offensive rebounds. Tyler got a corner 3 off a drive. That needs to be the new primary way Duke gets shooters open. Parker and Hood are perfect for that role as great passers with size and driving ability.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 11:24 AM
You expect to shoot 100% from the line? That's not realistic. For this team, the best expectation we should have had was 20 of 28 instead of 16 of 28, which is only 4 points different, although the missing front ends complicates that analysis a little bit.

Missing the front ends of one-and-ones doesn't complicate things. It means you left 16 points on the floor. They didn't need to shoot 100% Watch the presser with K. He said that we left 16 points on the floor by missing free throws. K isn't going to get complicated with the team. He's going to say, "You left 16 free points go to waste out there. The final margin was 11. You guys do the math. Now go practice your free throws."

InSpades
11-13-2013, 11:35 AM
Agree with most of the things already said. Missing the front-end of multiple one-and-ones really hurt us (along w/ free throw shooting in general).

Rasheed needs to start. I'm shocked that the boxscore says he played 28 minutes. He seemed entirely out of the flow of the game for the 1st half. He's too talented for that.

Amile showed a lot more offense than he did last year. He needs to be more assertive on the glass (especially defensive glass).

The defense needs to change. I'm sure Coach will figure something out but... this isn't working. I think we either need to put on way more pressure (trapping, pressing, etc.) or way less pressure (force them to shoot 3s, pack the lane a bit). With the rules the way they are it's very hard to cover a guy driving 1 vs. 1.

I was also very confused by our defense at times. Obviously the Thornton vs. Wiggins debacle... but also we seemed to want to double team Embid when he was like 10 feet from the basket. Were we really afraid of what he was going to do from there?

The offense is going to be impressive all year though. We can certainly take advantage of the new rules w/ our own driving ability.

Mal
11-13-2013, 11:41 AM
Basketball is or used to be a contact sport played by hardnosed warriers Wait, what? That's football you're describing, or possibly hockey. Basketball is a physical sport, but not a contact sport. Otherwise you're implying that physical intimidation, intentional contact and enhanced musculature are integral parts of the game, which they're not. Basketball is first and foremost a skill game - the two primary parts of the game are dribbling a ball while you run, and then shooting a ball through a sphere suspended ten feet in the air. That there's physical contact, especially under the basket, doesn't make it a contact sport.

Anyway, I'm fully on the side of the actual enforcement of the rule book experiment this season. I would imagine that proper calling of good defense (i.e., defenders simply holding their ground and getting run over by a dribbler is an offensive foul, and defenders staying in a horizontal plane while going up to block a shot is not a foul) will eventually follow if it becomes just too easy to score or get to the free throw line after the handchecking and bodying up on the perimeter starts to go away. Either that, or we could actually enforce the rules of dribbling the ball and traveling correctly, and move the pendulum back toward the middle that way.

The goal of this thing, I suspect, is to make chronically cynical teams like, oh, I don't know, Wisconsin, actually play basketball. I would not be surprised if the general message the NCAA gave to refs was this: "You know how some teams play a style that basically dares you to blow the whistle, because they think you'll get tired of it and you can't possibly call every foul? Well, screw them. Blow the whistle all you want, and we'll provide you the cover to do so by standing behind a new rules emphasis." I mean, we saw that in action last year against Louisville in the regional final - no team should be able to press that aggressively that much against a team like Duke and not have every starter sitting on at least two fouls by halftime. That's not sour grapes, really. Pitino coaches to the way the system's been set up to run, and he's not the only one to do so, so that's fine, and it works. And if the emphasis had been different last season, he's a good enough coach that he still would likely have found a way for his very talented team to be the best in the country at the end of the year. I'm just saying that style of ragged, reach-in and body up guys in the backcourt play is antithetical to the way I think the game should be, and I hope these reff'ing changes get rid of it. Maybe that makes me sound like a nostalgist or something, but I'm not saying we should bring back peach baskets and outlaw dunking or anything.

The NCAA is concerned about their golden goose, for sure, but they're concerned about it because when you have more and more games ending with scores in the high '50's and low '60s, you're going to start losing viewership. How many NCAA tournament games last year were just completely unwatchable? Plenty of them. Why? Because increased physicality begets ugly basketball. They may push it too far the other way at first, but it'll get fixed, and this is a good start, as far as I'm concerned.

alteran
11-13-2013, 11:59 AM
Wait, what? That's football you're describing, or possibly hockey. Basketball is a physical sport, but not a contact sport. Otherwise you're implying that physical intimidation, intentional contact and enhanced musculature are integral parts of the game, which they're not. Basketball is first and foremost a skill game - the two primary parts of the game are dribbling a ball while you run, and then shooting a ball through a sphere suspended ten feet in the air. That there's physical contact, especially under the basket, doesn't make it a contact sport.

Anyway, I'm fully on the side of the actual enforcement of the rule book experiment this season. I would imagine that proper calling of good defense (i.e., defenders simply holding their ground and getting run over by a dribbler is an offensive foul, and defenders staying in a horizontal plane while going up to block a shot is not a foul) will eventually follow if it becomes just too easy to score or get to the free throw line after the handchecking and bodying up on the perimeter starts to go away. Either that, or we could actually enforce the rules of dribbling the ball and traveling correctly, and move the pendulum back toward the middle that way.

The goal of this thing, I suspect, is to make chronically cynical teams like, oh, I don't know, Wisconsin, actually play basketball. I would not be surprised if the general message the NCAA gave to refs was this: "You know how some teams play a style that basically dares you to blow the whistle, because they think you'll get tired of it and you can't possibly call every foul? Well, screw them. Blow the whistle all you want, and we'll provide you the cover to do so by standing behind a new rules emphasis." I mean, we saw that in action last year against Louisville in the regional final - no team should be able to press that aggressively that much against a team like Duke and not have every starter sitting on at least two fouls by halftime. That's not sour grapes, really. Pitino coaches to the way the system's been set up to run, and he's not the only one to do so, so that's fine, and it works. And if the emphasis had been different last season, he's a good enough coach that he still would likely have found a way for his very talented team to be the best in the country at the end of the year. I'm just saying that style of ragged, reach-in and body up guys in the backcourt play is antithetical to the way I think the game should be, and I hope these reff'ing changes get rid of it. Maybe that makes me sound like a nostalgist or something, but I'm not saying we should bring back peach baskets and outlaw dunking or anything.

The NCAA is concerned about their golden goose, for sure, but they're concerned about it because when you have more and more games ending with scores in the high '50's and low '60s, you're going to start losing viewership. How many NCAA tournament games last year were just completely unwatchable? Plenty of them. Why? Because increased physicality begets ugly basketball. They may push it too far the other way at first, but it'll get fixed, and this is a good start, as far as I'm concerned.

I pretty much agree with this. If the officials are just over-doing it now to make a point, and plan to allow defensive verticality (I'd also like if if they'd not call fouls on defenders backing away from offensive players) and allow defenders to stand their ground , I'd probably be pretty happy with the new rules.

But it's looking a little too much like mid-90s pro ball right now, with the one-on-one slashing and hobbled defenses.

TNDukeFan
11-13-2013, 12:05 PM
There were multiple instances of offensive players jumping into defenders just standing there-- sometimes not even focused on the player with the ball, but another assignment-- and the defenders getting charged. In a rational world, that's an offensive foul, or at worst incidental contact. And I completely lost track of how many times a defender was completely vertical and got called for a foul when an offensive player went into their space.

I came here this morning to see if anyone was thinking as I was. I totally agree with this.
I'm old enough to have had Pistol Pete Maravich as my boyhood hero, and I support the rules changes. But along with them, I think the refs must restore some rights of the defenders to their space. Otherwise, there's no defense possible...players will have to just step out of the way.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 12:07 PM
The NCAA is concerned about their golden goose, for sure, but they're concerned about it because when you have more and more games ending with scores in the high '50's and low '60s, you're going to start losing viewership. How many NCAA tournament games last year were just completely unwatchable? Plenty of them. Why? Because increased physicality begets ugly basketball. They may push it too far the other way at first, but it'll get fixed, and this is a good start, as far as I'm concerned.

I think Brad Stevens left for the NBA at the right time. Those two physical Butler teams would have had a tough time making it to two straight Championship games.

FerryFor50
11-13-2013, 12:13 PM
I think Brad Stevens left for the NBA at the right time. Those two physical Butler teams would have had a tough time making it to two straight Championship games.

I'd like to know how a pressing, physical Louisville team has managed to commit a total of 29 fouls in 2 games, while Michigan State picked up 27 just against Kentucky and Duke had 21 against Davidson.

Are we to believe that L'ville learned to play defense without grabbing over the course of a summer?

gus
11-13-2013, 12:34 PM
I'd like to know how a pressing, physical Louisville team has managed to commit a total of 29 fouls in 2 games, while Michigan State picked up 27 just against Kentucky and Duke had 21 against Davidson.

Louisville has played College of Charleston and Hofstra, winning by a combined 50 points. That's how.

TexHawk
11-13-2013, 12:35 PM
I'd like to know how a pressing, physical Louisville team has managed to commit a total of 29 fouls in 2 games, while Michigan State picked up 27 just against Kentucky and Duke had 21 against Davidson.

Are we to believe that L'ville learned to play defense without grabbing over the course of a summer?

I find it odd that MSU was only called for 12 fouls in their first game, and only 5 on the starters. Sure, that was a blowout, but they are still the same physical team. I can grudgingly accept the new emphasis on fouls, but if that emphasis changes game-to-game, it will be a nightmare for all of us.

FerryFor50
11-13-2013, 12:41 PM
Louisville has played College of Charleston and Hofstra, winning by a combined 50 points. That's how.

Doesn't matter... They still are a pressing team. Duke beat Davidson by 30ish points and still got whistled 21 times and they don't play nearly as physically.

CharlestonDevil
11-13-2013, 12:44 PM
I don't.



I'm confused. Are you saying that because the "experts" picked Duke to win and they didn't, that the recruiting "experts" picking Okajones to Duke may be wrong, as well? Or that because Duke lost, Okajones may lean toward Kansas now?

Because the "experts" picked us to win the game and now the recruiting "experts" are starting to favor Duke for Tyus and Jahlil. Just makes me unnerved. EVERYONE was picking Looney to Duke up until the last minute.

BlueDevilBrowns
11-13-2013, 12:53 PM
Because the "experts" picked us to win the game and now the recruiting "experts" are starting to favor Duke for Tyus and Jahlil. Just makes me unnerved. EVERYONE was picking Looney to Duke up until the last minute.

While I agree that "conventional wisdom" isn't always wise, Looney isn't the best example. A day or two before Looney announced, several "experts" switched their vote to Florida or UT. Many didn't bother to update their vote at all.

In the case of Jones and Okafor, the really late action is moving in Duke's direction. I find that to be positive news.

mr. synellinden
11-13-2013, 01:00 PM
While I agree that "conventional wisdom" isn't always wise, Looney isn't the best example. A day or two before Looney announced, several "experts" switched their vote to Florida or UT. Many didn't bother to update their vote at all.

In the case of Jones and Okafor, the really late action is moving in Duke's direction. I find that to be positive news.

It could be positive news, but to be be fair, the late action on Looney was on Florida and the late action on Travis was on Minnesota.

MCFinARL
11-13-2013, 01:00 PM
I don't.



Yes. It's particularly hard to believe that Jones hasn't made up his mind given that, according to his dad, Okafor has made up his mind and is very confident in his choice. If both of these were true, that would suggest that Jones' preferred choice is not Okafor's and so he must decide whether to play with Okafor or not. But he seems like a careful, media savvy kid--I think it's unlikely he would agree to the scheduling of the whole joint signing show, etc., if he had not decided, and particularly if he thought he might decide not to go to school with Okafor.

But what do I know? I'm far too old to put myself back in the viewpoint of a teenager.

Ichabod Drain
11-13-2013, 01:01 PM
Missing the front ends of one-and-ones doesn't complicate things. It means you left 16 points on the floor. They didn't need to shoot 100% Watch the presser with K. He said that we left 16 points on the floor by missing free throws. K isn't going to get complicated with the team. He's going to say, "You left 16 free points go to waste out there. The final margin was 11. You guys do the math. Now go practice your free throws."

Of course you can say that if we shot better from the line we would have a better chance of winning. It's just an over simplification to say "we missed 12 FT's and lost by 11."

Kfanarmy
11-13-2013, 01:10 PM
Except Kansas barely played their big lineup. They went small to counter us (Self admitted as much in his post-game interview). Ellis is 6'8", 225, not significantly bigger than Amile at 6'9, 210. Black played 6 minutes. Traylor played 13 minutes. Embiid scored 2 points. In fact, Embiid, Traylor, and Black got 6 points, combined. So their points in the paint didn't happen because they were bigger. And they outrebounded us mostly because SF Wiggins and SG Selden each got a bunch of rebounds and our C Amile only had 2.

Looking even deeper, Ellis/Traylor/Embiid/Black combined for 74 minutes and scored 30 points. Jabari/Amile/Josh/Alex/Marshall combined for 74 minutes and scored 44 points. Our bigs way outscored their bigs. Unfortunately, Wiggins/Selden/Mason/Tharpe/Greene/White played 125 minutes and scored 64 points while Rodney/Quinn/Tyler/Rasheed/Matt played 126 minutes and scored 37 points, so their perimeter dominated ours.

So I'm not sure I buy the interior defense as the major issue, although our overall defense was not so good and obviously we could have used more help when Wiggins, Selden, and Mason slashed into the paint.

Also, if anyone bought into Coach K's declaration that he's going deeper into the bench this season, this game should give you pause. Only 6 Duke players got double-figure minutes. I don't think the metric you are using to analyze Dukes interior defense is solid...our bigs outscore their bigs...1st a significant number of jabaris points came from outside. 2nd a majority of their perimeter players' points were scored on the interior...so who scored what doesn't tell the story...where they scored does I believe. There were huge lapses in interior defense: failing to stay between the Jayhawk you are guarding and the rim; not rotating onto anyone during a switch, not staying between your Jawhawk and the ball....It was pretty obvious that Kansas was doing whatever they wanted in the 2nd half...foul calling obviously encouraged them, but Duke was rarely providing reasonable defense on the Jayhawk who scored a basket. It really was bad interior D, I don't see it getting too much better until guys relearn how to guard without touching the offensive player...or for that matter team defense. The foul supported offense won't work for Duke, as it did for Kansas, unless the team hits some front ends either.

Troublemaker
11-13-2013, 01:14 PM
I think the problem we can't concede is perimeter defense, or perhaps overall defense is the better way to put it. Selden and Mason hurt us pretty bad. The game was a two-point game with a minute and a half to go. If we'd tightened up our D, anywhere on the floor, just a little bit we probably would have won the game.

I hope you're right that perimeter D can stiffen under these conditions, but a part of me thinks under these rules, talented perimeter players are going to get theirs as much as Ellis is going to get his inside. The typical game between Kansas and Duke might just be a high-scoring one where both defenses struggle.

My wish would be for Marshall to improve to the point where he can give us 15 min/gm of solid rule-of-verticality big-man help defense. That way, our perimeter defenders can, without fouling, funnel their man into an athletic 7-footer who can force the opposing guard to make a tough 2-pointer over or around him. He won't block every shot or even challenge every shot successfully but he can help our guards foul less by having them trust that someone behind them will provide a roadblock to easy layups, so hands off the offensive player!. The goal would be to consistently have the opponent in worse foul trouble than Duke. I don't know how likely that scenario is though, including how far off MP3 is from providing solid minutes.

JPtheGame
11-13-2013, 01:17 PM
Yes. It's particularly hard to believe that Jones hasn't made up his mind given that, according to his dad, Okafor has made up his mind and is very confident in his choice. If both of these were true, that would suggest that Jones' preferred choice is not Okafor's and so he must decide whether to play with Okafor or not. But he seems like a careful, media savvy kid--I think it's unlikely he would agree to the scheduling of the whole joint signing show, etc., if he had not decided, and particularly if he thought he might decide not to go to school with Okafor.

But what do I know? I'm far too old to put myself back in the viewpoint of a teenager.

I think Okafor's camp complained about the college choice being too predictable and they hoped that everyone thinking they were going to Duke wouldn't end up being bad for Duke. So they set out to confuse this issue so we could all share in the pleasure of not knowing until the announcement and they have done just that. In the end, I think the plan is still the same and we'll see them at Duke but don't tell them I said that lest they start worrying about predictability again.

Ichabod Drain
11-13-2013, 01:30 PM
We missed 12 free throws that we attempted. Some of those misses were opportunities two get another shot (one-and-one). I'm not crazy here. I just listened to Coach K say the same exact thing. Not to appeal to authority here, but I'm okay with you disagreeing with both me and the winningest coach in men's basketball.

What are me and coach K disagreeing about exactly? We missed 12 free throws, and we had an opportunity to get four more. Improving our free throw shooting would have given us a better chance to win the game. There are also many other ways we could have done better that would have improved our chances of winning.

I'm just not going to fall for the cliche of comparing free throws missed to margin of defeat.

Steven43
11-13-2013, 01:31 PM
Yeah, that was an exceptionally strange decision by Coach K. You put Thornton (giving up 6 inches in height) on Wiggins who is a good post scorer. Bad idea. And then you compound that bad idea by FRONTING Wiggins!?!?!?!? Why not just hand Wiggins two points? Thankfully we quickly changed things up, but one has to wonder why it was ever a good idea.

I fear that a lot of Thornton's defensive value may disappear this year with the new rules. His game is all about physicality: clutching, bumping, hand-checks, grabbing, fouling. Officials have been told to get rid of that. So it may well leave Thornton as an undersized, unathletic, smart player who commits a ton of fouls. And I certainly don't think he can defend SF/PF with the new rules.

I find it a bit concerning that, despite having more depth (and tall players) than any time in recent memory, Coach K still felt compelled to go to a 3-guard lineup with Hood at PF. That approach can work against smaller teams like Davidson. It is not likely to work against bigger teams.

I know Coach says his team doesn't have positions, but most basketball coaches would refer to players such as Smith, Jones, Curry, Thornton, Cook, and Sulaimon as guards. I don't know of any other top program that frequently plays three guards at the same time. I'm not sure if it is our inability to recruit enough quality bigs that is forcing us to play three guards, but it has been going on for the past three seasons, with no end in sight. And Tyler is always involved.

Speaking of Tyler, though he cannot jump very well, isn't quick, isn't a good shooter or scorer, can't penetrate, isn't a creative passer, fouls too much, and isn't a good on-ball defender, he plays 20+ minutes per game and will continue to do so for the rest of his Duke career. And for reasons that I cannot understand he will continue to be put in the position to defend much taller players. In Tyler's defense I will say that he is tough, tenacious, aggressive, upbeat, a good communicator, and is experienced, so he does bring some strong attributes to the team.

Obviously Coach is one of the best ever while I am just some guy posting on the internet. Big advantage K.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 01:35 PM
What are me and coach K disagreeing about exactly? We missed 12 free throws, and we had an opportunity to get four more. Improving our free throw shooting would have given us a better chance to win the game. There are also many other ways we could have done better that would have improved our chances of winning.

I'm just not going to fall for the cliche of comparing free throws missed to margin of defeat.

Okay, don't "fall for it" then. It was a common tactic of all coaches I had in both high school and college (DIII) to tell us how many free throws we left on the floor and then explain how making those free throws would have put the game in our favor. If you don't like it, fine. It's merely a tool to show how not making free shots can adversely affect the outcome of a game.

By the way, if a player has two free throws to win a game and misses both and the team loses by that margin, you aren't in support of showing how missed free throws make up for the margin of defeat? Its a simplified version of what I'm saying. Missing free throws has a direct consequence on the margin of defeat and victory.

chaosmage
11-13-2013, 01:38 PM
I came here this morning to see if anyone was thinking as I was. I totally agree with this.
I'm old enough to have had Pistol Pete Maravich as my boyhood hero, and I support the rules changes. But along with them, I think the refs must restore some rights of the defenders to their space. Otherwise, there's no defense possible...players will have to just step out of the way.

By Parker choosing that moment to foul out with such a silly foul, but earlier a Kansas Player drove (Ellis or Wiggins) and he just moved out of the way to avoid the contact. Frustration? And did anyone else see him do that, or am I mistaken?

Also, it's November. We'll be fine.

Kedsy
11-13-2013, 01:43 PM
I don't think the metric you are using to analyze Dukes interior defense is solid...our bigs outscore their bigs...1st a significant number of jabaris points came from outside. 2nd a majority of their perimeter players' points were scored on the interior...so who scored what doesn't tell the story...where they scored does I believe. There were huge lapses in interior defense: failing to stay between the Jayhawk you are guarding and the rim; not rotating onto anyone during a switch, not staying between your Jawhawk and the ball....It was pretty obvious that Kansas was doing whatever they wanted in the 2nd half...foul calling obviously encouraged them, but Duke was rarely providing reasonable defense on the Jayhawk who scored a basket. It really was bad interior D, I don't see it getting too much better until guys relearn how to guard without touching the offensive player...or for that matter team defense. The foul supported offense won't work for Duke, as it did for Kansas, unless the team hits some front ends either.

Looking at the play-by-play, only 10 of Ellis's 24 points came from inside baskets, so a significant number of his points came from outside as well. He and Jabari more or less did the same thing, except Jabari did it a little better. The other Kansas bigs had a total of 3 inside baskets, and Amile had 7, so again advantage Duke. And while it's true a lot of Kansas' perimeter players points were scored inside, they weren't from post-ups. Those points happened because our perimeter players couldn't keep the Kansas guys in front of them without being called for a foul. To me, that's a lapse in perimeter defense, not interior defense, even though the basket was scored near the rim. The other stuff you mention (rotating, helping, etc.) are team defense concepts, which I agree we didn't do all that well.

Seems to me, the main reason we're talking about interior defense is because our center isn't very big. A lot of people are talking about "interior defense" as code for "we don't play a true center." Since the opposing centers scored a total of 3 inside baskets (I believe Ellis was mostly playing PF and, in any event, I don't think Amile guarded him much, if at all), I don't think our lack of a true center was what cost us the game here.

Ichabod Drain
11-13-2013, 01:47 PM
Okay, don't "fall for it" then. It was a common tactic of all coaches I had in both high school and college (DIII) to tell us how many free throws we left on the floor and then explain how making those free throws would have put the game in our favor. If you don't like it, fine. It's merely a tool to show how not making free shots can adversely affect the outcome of a game.

By the way, if a player has two free throws to win a game and misses both and the team loses by that margin, you aren't in support of showing how missed free throws make up for the margin of defeat? Its a simplified version of what I'm saying. Missing free throws has a direct consequence on the margin of defeat and victory.

Of course it does. But so do a lot of other things. What if he missed a three at the buzzer?

superdave
11-13-2013, 01:52 PM
Looking at the play-by-play, only 10 of Ellis's 24 points came from inside baskets, so a significant number of his points came from outside as well. He and Jabari more or less did the same thing, except Jabari did it a little better. The other Kansas bigs had a total of 3 inside baskets, and Amile had 7, so again advantage Duke. And while it's true a lot of Kansas' perimeter players points were scored inside, they weren't from post-ups. Those points happened because our perimeter players couldn't keep the Kansas guys in front of them without being called for a foul. To me, that's a lapse in perimeter defense, not interior defense, even though the basket was scored near the rim. The other stuff you mention (rotating, helping, etc.) are team defense concepts, which I agree we didn't do all that well.

Seems to me, the main reason we're talking about interior defense is because our center isn't very big. A lot of people are talking about "interior defense" as code for "we don't play a true center." Since the opposing centers scored a total of 3 inside baskets (I believe Ellis was mostly playing PF and, in any event, I don't think Amile guarded him much, if at all), I don't think our lack of a true center was what cost us the game here.

When Kansas' wing players scored in the paint, my thought during the game was that Amile and Jabari were going for blocks rather than filling space in the paint in front of the rim. Maybe the rule changes prevented them from rotating fully and stepping into the paint, so they tried to avoid contact by getting a help side block. I dont know. In the past, guarding the space in front of the rim to push the shot attempt further out and increasing the degree of difficulty had merit. Maybe not today.

Either way, Kedsy's point about guards getting beat is spot on. Our perimeter switches left mismatches or left our guys in a bad position to keep the ball-handler in front or freed up a clean roll to the basket. More ball pressure will push those screens further out and give us more time to rotate, or prevent those plays from developing as drawn.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 01:52 PM
Of course it does. But so do a lot of other things. What if he missed three at the buzzer?

I think you are trying to emphasize that there are other facets of the game that decide the outcome. I agree and understand that.
I was not trying to make an argument that free throw shooting was the only reason for our defeat last night. I was pointing to a single aspect of the game in which we played poorly and made the observation that we left so many free throws on the court that the number misses potentially exceeded the margin defeat. It's an interesting number, but I'm not pretending that they need to shoot 100% from the line.

Kfanarmy
11-13-2013, 01:56 PM
Looking at the play-by-play, only 10 of Ellis's 24 points came from inside baskets, so a significant number of his points came from outside as well. He and Jabari more or less did the same thing, except Jabari did it a little better. The other Kansas bigs had a total of 3 inside baskets, and Amile had 7, so again advantage Duke. And while it's true a lot of Kansas' perimeter players points were scored inside, they weren't from post-ups. Those points happened because our perimeter players couldn't keep the Kansas guys in front of them without being called for a foul. To me, that's a lapse in perimeter defense, not interior defense, even though the basket was scored near the rim. The other stuff you mention (rotating, helping, etc.) are team defense concepts, which I agree we didn't do all that well.

Seems to me, the main reason we're talking about interior defense is because our center isn't very big. A lot of people are talking about "interior defense" as code for "we don't play a true center." Since the opposing centers scored a total of 3 inside baskets (I believe Ellis was mostly playing PF and, in any event, I don't think Amile guarded him much, if at all), I don't think our lack of a true center was what cost us the game here. I agree with your last point there. I think we see this mostly the same... The perimeter defenders were allowing Jayhawks to penetrate to the interior. So there was ineffective perimeter D, but that shouldn't mean Kansas scores virtually every posession, if someone on the interior picks up the penetrating player; correct defenders rotate to the basket; and everyone else stays between their man and the ball....Bottom line for me is the D looked very porous all the way to the rim. It seemed at least one player was out of position on many defensive sets.

B

1 24 90
11-13-2013, 02:54 PM
Do you think that this will cause our Top-10 streak to come to an end on Monday?

FWIW, cbssports updated their Top 25 and 1 today and kept Duke at 5, with UK at 4, KU at 3, Louisville at 2 and MSU at 1. I don't think Duke should be or will be penalized much for challenging themselves while #6 thru 10 haven't yet.

dukepsy1963
11-13-2013, 03:11 PM
Does anyone think that part of K's coaching brilliance/savvy is kinda "laying back" in early games and letting the "kids" find themselves and a decent team mix? This, even though the outcome might be a loss like the one we had last night.

Maybe I am way off here, but I had the feeling throughout the game that K was kinda backing off and not telling the players what to do, getting angry, etc. Maybe he looks ahead and says, "so we lose this one, let's let them feel/experience what that's like." "I'm going to do that tonight." (as a coaching strategy that goes beyond a single game).

I would be interested to hear what anyone thinks about K using such a coaching strategy.

dukechem
11-13-2013, 03:25 PM
I haven't seen anyone mention the drop off in three-point shooting in the second half. We were 6-12 in the first half, but only 1-6 in the second. Undoubtedly, this was a point of emphasis for the Kansas defense, and they were effective. I don't know if more of the dribble drives in the second half could have resulted in kick-outs for open threes, but I was hoping for more.

Billy Dat
11-13-2013, 03:30 PM
Does anyone think that part of K's coaching brilliance/savvy is kinda "laying back" in early games and letting the "kids" find themselves and a decent team mix? This, even though the outcome might be a loss like the one we had last night.

Maybe I am way off here, but I had the feeling throughout the game that K was kinda backing off and not telling the players what to do, getting angry, etc. Maybe he looks ahead and says, "so we lose this one, let's let them feel/experience what that's like." "I'm going to do that tonight." (as a coaching strategy that goes beyond a single game).

I would be interested to hear what anyone thinks about K using such a coaching strategy.

I don't think he's wired that way. I think he always does everything possible to win. In fact, in the post game press conference, someone asked him what he thought about NBA teams "tanking" to get better chances of high NBA draft lottery picks in order to land a Parker, Wiggins or Randle. He said he can't believe, in his heart, that any competitor would ever do that and, in fact, said it felt like it was a very un-American think to do.

http://deadspin.com/mike-krzyzewski-thinks-tanking-nba-teams-are-un-america-1463834930

roywhite
11-13-2013, 03:52 PM
Perry Ellis = Marvis Linwood Thornton III?

That's Bootsy Thornton, of Saint Johns, and tormentor of the Blue Devils. A good college player who played at his absolute best against Duke. I'll be interested to see what kind of season Ellis has. Will he be a top-notch player thru the year or not approach the performance he had vs Duke?

We seem to bring out the best in some opposing players. In addition to Thornton, Derrick Williams (painfully) of Arizona comes to mind, and more recently Dez Wells of Maryland. There are several others.

Ellis appears to be the early leader for the Bootsy Award.

weezie
11-13-2013, 04:02 PM
Does anyone think that part of K's coaching brilliance/savvy is kinda "laying back" in early games and letting the "kids" find themselves and a decent team mix? This, even though the outcome might be a loss like the one we had last night.


I think you're on to something. I might guess that K is still looking for the "GRRR" guy, the tough mudder that will rally the troops.
He recruits intelligent players who learn to listen and last night there didn't seem to be much getting through either from K or with each other. Last night was not the time for K to scream at them.
It might have been a very emotional game for Jabari, a guy who has never been booed and look at how the jeers rained down from the excited kansas folks. Self cried and fussed all night and then nearly hugged himself with delight at the end.

Eh, whatevs....NEXT!

TexHawk
11-13-2013, 04:05 PM
Perry Ellis = Marvis Linwood Thornton III?

That's Bootsy Thornton, of Saint Johns, and tormentor of the Blue Devils. A good college player who played at his absolute best against Duke. I'll be interested to see what kind of season Ellis has. Will he be a top-notch player thru the year or not approach the performance he had vs Duke?

We seem to bring out the best in some opposing players. In addition to Thornton, Derrick Williams (painfully) of Arizona comes to mind, and more recently Dez Wells of Maryland. There are several others.

Ellis appears to be the early leader for the Bootsy Award.

Perry Ellis put up 23 and 9 in the Big 12 Tournament Championship game as a freshman 7 months ago. Over the last 10 games of 2012-13, he put up 11/5 in 16 mpg, as the 6th man behind Jeff Withey and Kevin Young. He's a four-year player (3 at the least), but he's going to have better games than he did last night. Especially if he can hit that three consistently.

Troublemaker
11-13-2013, 04:06 PM
Does anyone think that part of K's coaching brilliance/savvy is kinda "laying back" in early games and letting the "kids" find themselves and a decent team mix? This, even though the outcome might be a loss like the one we had last night.

Maybe I am way off here, but I had the feeling throughout the game that K was kinda backing off and not telling the players what to do, getting angry, etc. Maybe he looks ahead and says, "so we lose this one, let's let them feel/experience what that's like." "I'm going to do that tonight." (as a coaching strategy that goes beyond a single game).

I would be interested to hear what anyone thinks about K using such a coaching strategy.

It would be quite atypical of Coach K to do so. Duke usually has a sterling November record.

Also, there's no way we could've played Kansas, a talented top-5 team, basically to a draw (with the final margin not being indicative of how tight a contest it was) if Coach K didn't coach very hard to win.

Troublemaker
11-13-2013, 04:14 PM
Perry Ellis put up 23 and 9 in the Big 12 Tournament Championship game as a freshman 7 months ago. Over the last 10 games of 2012-13, he put up 11/5 in 16 mpg, as the 6th man behind Jeff Withey and Kevin Young. He's a four-year player (3 at the least), but he's going to have better games than he did last night. Especially if he can hit that three consistently.

Yeah, Perry Ellis is legit. He's a former 5-star recruit, a very good player right now who has great poise and nice touch in the post. If he's a 3-4 year player who will continue to develop in college, he could make an All-American team someday, maybe even this year.

Congrats on the win, TexHawk. What's the deal with Frank Mason? Do you think he could supplant Tharpe as the starting PG at some point? I'm thinking an eventual starting lineup of Mason, Selden, Wiggins, Ellis, and Embiid is going to be a bear to deal with.

alteran
11-13-2013, 04:15 PM
I don't think he's wired that way. I think he always does everything possible to win. In fact, in the post game press conference, someone asked him what he thought about NBA teams "tanking" to get better chances of high NBA draft lottery picks in order to land a Parker, Wiggins or Randle. He said he can't believe, in his heart, that any competitor would ever do that and, in fact, said it felt like it was a very un-American think to do.

http://deadspin.com/mike-krzyzewski-thinks-tanking-nba-teams-are-un-america-1463834930

I would argue that while he does not, say, lose games early in the season to achieve obscure psychological goals, he clearly coaches with the objective of maximizing win potential in March-- and if we risk a few games early on we would have won otherwise, so be it.

I think the obvious example is when we had Kyrie. Duke played a borderline frentic style which maximized Kyrie's amazing skills. At times Duke was borderline out of control. I don't think it ever cost us a game, but it certainly seemed at times that a more controlled style familiar to the guys that had played the previous season would give us a bigger advantage in the early season. But the team played to Kyrie's strengths even if they weren't there yet and even if it wasn't the best way to beat the team in front of them at that specific moment in time.

Of course, The Toe of Destiny threw that plan for a loop.

DBFAN
11-13-2013, 04:42 PM
Worst part about the loss is having to hear a bunch of crap from Carolina fans on my FB page. Of course none of them were baited into the conversation, just love to watch us lose. What sucks is that I just don't say anything about anyone else's team when they lose because I know it sucks. But good lord UNC fans have no class

CR9
11-13-2013, 04:47 PM
A little late but my .02:

1) Parker is a monster. An animal. A beast. Whatever euphemism you want to use. He's it. Kid's unreal.

2) The 2 PG thing has to stop. I didn't like it against Davidson, didn't like it last night. I can understand wanting a little 'oomph' from the bench in 'Sheed but he's far too good to be a 6th man. I was hoping that was a role 'Dre could fill but doesn't look that way.

3) Speaking of 6th man, I thought this might've been a game for Semi to play a bit. Being athletic and built like a tank, he'd have helped defensively and on the glass, and even to give Hood/Parker a breather.

4) Can someone please explain fronting the post to me? I know why it's done and what it's supposed to accomplish but why rely on communication and the ability to read each other when you've got 3 new front court starters? I thought once Kansas started to really punish that K would switch things up but again and again it was an easy deuce.

5) Can Duke make some free throws? Cripes, they're almost as bad as Kentucky and they were woeful. Those are killers, though, missing at inopportune times.

6) Was incredibly disappointed in Rodney last night. I was hoping he'd continue to be aggressive and want to prove himself. But the stage was too big for him, I feel. He wasn't assertive like he should've been but he'll get there, no question.


That's all, really. You honestly can't complain too much. A close, competitive game with some tremendously talented players. They put on a show. 2 fabulous basketball games last night. 4 good teams. Could well be the Final 4 teams when all's said and (almost) done.

DBFAN
11-13-2013, 04:50 PM
I was wondering if anyone noticed that we actually increased our lead while Marshall was in last night. I know it might have been fools gold, but I think his size gave Kansas problems

Skitzle
11-13-2013, 04:52 PM
We missed 12 free throws. Lost by 11.

This...

I know we're not supposed to make all our free throws... but the game has a totally different swing if we make them. We took (and missed) our free throws early. If Duke was up by 5 with 6 minutes left as opposed to tied, you wouldnt see Wiggins sitting, he might have fouled out.

Great Great game though.

weezie
11-13-2013, 04:54 PM
I was wondering if anyone noticed that we actually increased our lead while Marshall was in last night. I know it might have been fools gold, but I think his size gave Kansas problems

I think you are right. I did notice that, at least, he managed to flummox his man at mid-court. Maybe just for a few minutes but still. Just give Jabari a bit of a break or a rotation outside the key.

Kedsy
11-13-2013, 04:55 PM
I thought this might've been a game for Semi to play a bit. Being athletic and built like a tank, he'd have helped defensively and on the glass, and even to give Hood/Parker a breather.


I was wondering if anyone noticed that we actually increased our lead while Marshall was in last night. I know it might have been fools gold, but I think his size gave Kansas problems


Sad that Andre is behind both Jones and Murphy.

Here's something that just popped into my head. How deep is our team when our tallest player, our heaviest player, our strongest player, our best athlete, and our best shooter combined for 3 minutes last night?

OK, the tallest and heaviest player are the same and the strongest and most athletic player are the same, but it's still a testament to our depth and talent.

Skitzle
11-13-2013, 05:16 PM
Here's something that just popped into my head. How deep is our team when our tallest player, our heaviest player, our strongest player, our best athlete, and our best shooter combined for 3 minutes last night?

OK, the tallest and heaviest player are the same and the strongest and most athletic player are the same, but it's still a testament to our depth and talent.

Tall Heavy Strong Athletic and Shooter all have one thing in common. All of the are just bad measurements of a players ability to play basketball.

You might say shooter and basketball are related, but there have been many many many amazing shooters who never played Div III basketball because they could dribble, drive, pass, rebound, or defend.

Just saying, while it's interesting, its not a good measure of basketball depth...

CDu
11-13-2013, 05:25 PM
Does anyone think that part of K's coaching brilliance/savvy is kinda "laying back" in early games and letting the "kids" find themselves and a decent team mix? This, even though the outcome might be a loss like the one we had last night.

Maybe I am way off here, but I had the feeling throughout the game that K was kinda backing off and not telling the players what to do, getting angry, etc. Maybe he looks ahead and says, "so we lose this one, let's let them feel/experience what that's like." "I'm going to do that tonight." (as a coaching strategy that goes beyond a single game).

I would be interested to hear what anyone thinks about K using such a coaching strategy.

I don't think he does that at all. It goes against his mantra of viewing every game as a must-win. He handles his rotations each game with that mindset. He coaches them that way too.

Kedsy
11-13-2013, 05:32 PM
Tall Heavy Strong Athletic and Shooter all have one thing in common. All of the are just bad measurements of a players ability to play basketball.

You might say shooter and basketball are related, but there have been many many many amazing shooters who never played Div III basketball because they could dribble, drive, pass, rebound, or defend.

Just saying, while it's interesting, its not a good measure of basketball depth...

Possibly, except all three of these guys appear to be basketball players as well. While none of them appear to have mastered all facets of the game yet, based on Andre's college performance and Marshall's and Semi's high school performance, they all have skills.

rocketeli
11-13-2013, 06:02 PM
I watched the game this afternoon on the BDN full game replay, because I couldn't stay up that late. I already knew we lost of course, but I was interested to see what kind of game it was--I knew it wouldn't be the lazy headline writer's "Wiggins leads Kansas past Duke" but how did we play? Actually, (and I haven't read all the comments on the thread, so I apologize if some on else said it) we didn't play all that badly. Free throw misses didn't help of course, but we were moving pretty well, playing our game and shooting well and tied or leading most of the time until the last 4-5 minutes when Kansas began to have success pounding the ball inside. It seemed like they had about 10 straight fouls awarded on post moves for a bit there. However it wasn't one of those classic Duke bad games, when every defender seems to rotate late, and every shot clanks off the iron right from the get go. It was a much closer game than the score indicated. Wiggins ended up with good stats but I really think some of there other players, such as Ellis hurt us a lot more--of course that could be because we had to give Wiggins so much attention that the others were free to do more. I don't feel bad about most of the game, or our efforts, and think the team will be just fine as the season moves along and they gain experience in closing out games.

duke4ever19
11-13-2013, 06:06 PM
This...

I know we're not supposed to make all our free throws... but the game has a totally different swing if we make them. We took (and missed) our free throws early. If Duke was up by 5 with 6 minutes left as opposed to tied, you wouldnt see Wiggins sitting, he might have fouled out.

Great Great game though.

In the press conference, K said we potentially left 16 points (!) on the court because we not only missed 12 free throws, but some of those include the front end of one-and-ones. Like others have said, we also did other things that hurt us, but this number stuck out to me, and apparently to Coach too.

Sandman
11-13-2013, 06:28 PM
We all this wasted time dribbling, shooting, passing the ball, and the like? I mean, I tuned in to watch a free-throw shooting contest, but it was interrupted several times by people playing basketball!


Cut out the middleman. Just start at one free throw line, have them shoot a couple, then walk down to the other end and have the other team shoot a couple. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Sorta like how many soccer games end, you mean -- oh, excuse me, I mean "football"!

meloveduke
11-13-2013, 07:46 PM
We lost this game only because we are a new team. Its only game 2. K will get the guys focused on D and frees, and we will get better and better.. I would much rather start out cold and have teams show us what we need to work on now, fix the problems and get better, as apposed to finding the faults in the dance....

kAzE
11-13-2013, 08:58 PM
Kansas's bigs were more effective than the box score indicates. They didn't necessarily score off of many of their post ups, but alot of those post ups led to passes to open cutters and easy layups. They also posted up Wiggins a number of times effectively. The stretch where he was being guarded by Thornton comes to mind. So, you could say our interior defense was lacking, but it was really just getting called for way too many fouls in the 2nd half that destroyed any shot we had at winning the game. Mason got to the line over and over again, we just couldn't stop him. We had 3 guys on the floor with 4 fouls with the game on the line, and you just can't do anything on defense when it's like that.

Duke79UNLV77
11-13-2013, 09:43 PM
Kansas didn't have a huge number of offensive rebounds, so much of their rebounding edge likely came from our missed free throws. They also didn't kill us scoring in the post.

Still, I think our weakest link could be the lack of a defensive back line enforcer. Under the new rules, it's going to be much easier to penetrate and harder to draw charges. Good shot blockers/changers could be at more of a premium. Right now, anyway, Kansas has an edge in that area.

Still, we are so good in other areas, including driving on our end, that we can make up for this weakness against most opponents.

NYBri
11-13-2013, 10:00 PM
I'm not disappointed with the game loss. I love this team.

Furniture
11-13-2013, 10:13 PM
You might want to revisit your thoughts on soccer - perhaps watch a game or two. Soccer is significantly more physical than basketball.

I agree. How could anyone say this?

Basketball is or used to be a contact sport played by hardnosed warriers- it is not soccer without a goal tender LOL

Neals384
11-14-2013, 12:04 AM
Can you imagine watching games this year when Karl Hess is calling the games??? OMG!!! He'll probably whistle a couple of bench players for chest bumping....

Hess worked the Davidson game.

subzero02
11-14-2013, 12:58 AM
Rodney Hood needs to step up his play... This loss will only benefit us in the long run.

Btw, comparisons to the 99 squad need to subside for quite some time at this point

gep
11-14-2013, 12:59 AM
Regarding Coach K "laying off" this game. Coach Chuck Daly did that with the 1992 Olympic Dream Team... to get their attention... in which he succeeded. He didn't play the "obvious" players or combinations. In fact, in the documentary specials, Coach K said that it was a good move by Coach Daly.

Coach K plays to win every game... but maybe he's taking a page out of Coach Daly in this case with a new team, which some have said reflects his USA teams. Play certain combinations, with the goal to win, but have the bigger long-term goal of teaching.

tommy
11-14-2013, 03:48 AM
Kansas didn't have a huge number of offensive rebounds, so much of their rebounding edge likely came from our missed free throws. They also didn't kill us scoring in the post.

Still, I think our weakest link could be the lack of a defensive back line enforcer. Under the new rules, it's going to be much easier to penetrate and harder to draw charges. Good shot blockers/changers could be at more of a premium. Right now, anyway, Kansas has an edge in that area.

While shot blocking is not a strength of this year's Duke team, Kansas had a grand total of 3 blocks against us, and one of those was by Wiggins, so their bigs only got 2. As far as altering shots, it doesn't appear they did much of that either. Our primary inside guy, Amile Jefferson, shot 7 of 9, and our next best inside operator, Jabari Parker, shot 9 of 18. Of course a number of those were outside jumpers, but still, our top two inside scorers combined to shot 16 of 27, Cook and Sulaimon both were able to penetrate and get all the way to the rim several times, and Kansas only blocked 3 shots all night. To me, shot blocking was a non-factor in this game.

oldnavy
11-14-2013, 07:05 AM
Hess worked the Davidson game.

True, but that game wasn't on National TV and a featured event all week....

oldnavy
11-14-2013, 07:31 AM
By Parker choosing that moment to foul out with such a silly foul, but earlier a Kansas Player drove (Ellis or Wiggins) and he just moved out of the way to avoid the contact. Frustration? And did anyone else see him do that, or am I mistaken?

Also, it's November. We'll be fine.

I was confused except for a different reason. I watched the play from every angle they showed and even the still pic on the ESPN front page and haven't seen any contact yet. Typical official call where, it looks like it "may" develop into a foul so I must blow the whistle before the play actually happens to make the call. It was literally the time that I turned the TV off and went to bed.

Hey since we are moving toward 3 hour games, why not institute a coaches challenge or review from the booth on these type plays??? Just kidding of course, but it is amazing to me how often these type of phantom fouls are called...

If someone has a video that shows a foul, please link it because I really want to be wrong about this.

roywhite
11-14-2013, 08:24 AM
I was confused except for a different reason. I watched the play from every angle they showed and even the still pic on the ESPN front page and haven't seen any contact yet. Typical official call where, it looks like it "may" develop into a foul so I must blow the whistle before the play actually happens to make the call. It was literally the time that I turned the TV off and went to bed.

Hey since we are moving toward 3 hour games, why not institute a coaches challenge or review from the booth on these type plays??? Just kidding of course, but it is amazing to me how often these type of phantom fouls are called...

If someone has a video that shows a foul, please link it because I really want to be wrong about this.

Exactly. And it's also when I turned the game off.

I hated the call if it's the type of call we will see regularly with the new rules. And I really hated it if it was a true phantom contact call.

weezie
11-14-2013, 08:38 AM
I'm not disappointed with the game loss. I love this team.

Come to think of it...that game sets up a sweetie of a rematch come March. The gasbag commentators will be fresh-stupid with foaming mouth excitement.

weezie
11-14-2013, 08:40 AM
Exactly. And it's also when I turned the game off.

I hated the call if it's the type of call we will see regularly with the new rules. And I really hated it if it was a true phantom contact call.

Roy, was that call made by our dear Brian Kersey?
He's a fan fav in Cameron. What amazing lead piercing vision he has.
He's on the inside track for the Karl Hess Award this year.

Troublemaker
11-14-2013, 08:41 AM
Still, I think our weakest link could be the lack of a defensive back line enforcer. Under the new rules, it's going to be much easier to penetrate and harder to draw charges. Good shot blockers/changers could be at more of a premium.

Agreed that might be the case. Hopefully Amile and Jabari can start to impact shots a little bit more and generally rotate faster as the season progesses. Especially Amile, who has hasn't had much defensive impact yet. Theoretically, he seems to have great quickness that could be uitilized to rotate quickly to spots he needs to be, and then he has long arms to bother shots. Theoretically, he could be a good help-side defender.


While shot blocking is not a strength of this year's Duke team, Kansas had a grand total of 3 blocks against us, and one of those was by Wiggins, so their bigs only got 2. As far as altering shots, it doesn't appear they did much of that either. Our primary inside guy, Amile Jefferson, shot 7 of 9, and our next best inside operator, Jabari Parker, shot 9 of 18. Of course a number of those were outside jumpers, but still, our top two inside scorers combined to shot 16 of 27, Cook and Sulaimon both were able to penetrate and get all the way to the rim several times, and Kansas only blocked 3 shots all night. To me, shot blocking was a non-factor in this game.

Agreed that shotblocking wasn't a huge separator between these teams in this game. The overall lack of shotblocking, by both teams, probably contributed to the game being a defensive struggle for both.

TexHawk
11-14-2013, 09:10 AM
If someone has a video that shows a foul, please link it because I really want to be wrong about this.

Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFb1eVKyhok). At 2:29:15 (or so), looks like Parker could have grazed the back of Wiggins's head. Not the best angle, but it's the best one we have.

FerryFor50
11-14-2013, 09:21 AM
Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFb1eVKyhok). At 2:29:15 (or so), looks like Parker could have grazed the back of Wiggins's head. Not the best angle, but it's the best one we have.

I thought it was the arm. Did not affect the play, however, and I saw much more egregious contact on drives not get called in that game.

However, when you swipe at a guy on a dunk, regardless if you hit him or not, you're going to get called just about every time. Pretty common knowledge. The official always assumes the foul.

Ichabod Drain
11-14-2013, 09:32 AM
I thought it was the arm. Did not affect the play, however, and I saw much more egregious contact on drives not get called in that game.

However, when you swipe at a guy on a dunk, regardless if you hit him or not, you're going to get called just about every time. Pretty common knowledge. The official always assumes the file.

Yea, definitely a freshman mistake by Jabari. The game wasn't over at that point and we really needed him if we wanted a chance to win. Kid's going to be amazing though.

dyedwab
11-14-2013, 09:46 AM
It hurt both teams in the Duke-KU game, but watching it, it was unclear to me what the referees were letting the players do on defense. It seemed that on any move to the basket by either team, contact was called, which basically eliminated the idea that there was "good defensive position".

Not argue that there should have been more charges called, but it seemed like all contact begat a defensive whistle.

Saratoga2
11-14-2013, 10:43 AM
There have been several posts which suggest re-evaluating players value based upon the demonstated enforement of the new rules. How coach K sees value and how some of the posters see value are probably significantly different at this point in time. Whatever the reality of the situation, both coaches and posters will come closeer to what works best at time goes on. My own paarticular view is probably somewhat flawed at this point but I share it here for discussion.

Jabari Parker is a fabulous offensive player who has much to learn about defense. A+
Quinn Cook is a very good guard who can score and distribute but is probably not a top defender against very quick guards. A-
Rodney Hood is a very savy and capable player who is excellent now and will develop further throughout the season. A-
Amile Jefferson is quick and cagey and can score but is not the strong rebounder we would like to have inside. A-
Rasheed Sualiman is a larger guard with excellent quickness and length and can penetrate, good defender. A-
Tyler Thornton game is one of intimidation and physical guarding but is limited offensively and fouls too much. B-
Josh Hairston is a smaller inside player who relied on close guarding and taking charges but is limited offensively C
Alex Murphy has the size, athletic ability and offensive possibilities to make him a reasonable substitute at forward B
Matt Jones has a lot of positives, with offensive and defensive capabilities but is a raw freshman who should improve B-
Marshall Plumley has size but is still pretty unused to the speed of the game. He should help in some situations C
Semi Olijeye (sp) has a lot of athletic ability but is a raw freshman. Best hope here is to get time in less competitive games C
Andre Dawkins has shown a lot of ability in the past but hasn't got a sniff at PT as yet. Unknown

Based on my current take, I would like to see Jabari, Quinn, Rodney, Amile and Rasheed get the majority of the PT, with Tyler substituting at PG, Alex at PF and Matt at SG with Marshall/Josh subbing at C. By using non starting freshmen in games where we have a solid lead, we can assess their abilities going forward and perhaps Matt and Semi will assume a larger role later in the season.

Duke76
11-14-2013, 11:05 AM
I thought it was the arm. Did not affect the play, however, and I saw much more egregious contact on drives not get called in that game.

However, when you swipe at a guy on a dunk, regardless if you hit him or not, you're going to get called just about every time. Pretty common knowledge. The official always assumes the foul.

I haven't...they are none existent this year....this system is going to make it miserable to watch basketball this year and I would think to play.
Any contact is being called in favor of the offensive player...reminds me of the MacDonalds AllStar games or the NFL end of the yr Pro Bowl....if you want to stay in the game let the other team shot and hope you have a better percentage from the field and the f
free throw line and get more attempts at both

FerryFor50
11-14-2013, 11:08 AM
I haven't...they are none existent this year....this system is going to make it miserable to watch basketball this year and I would think to play.
Any contact is being called in favor of the offensive player...reminds me of the MacDonalds AllStar games or the NFL end of the yr Pro Bowl....if you want to stay in the game let the other team shot and hope you have a better percentage from the field and the f
free throw line and get more attempts at both

Yea they've pretty much done away with charges. They might as well call it the "Duke rule."

alteran
11-14-2013, 11:40 AM
There have been several posts which suggest re-evaluating players value based upon the demonstated enforement of the new rules. How coach K sees value and how some of the posters see value are probably significantly different at this point in time. Whatever the reality of the situation, both coaches and posters will come closeer to what works best at time goes on. My own paarticular view is probably somewhat flawed at this point but I share it here for discussion.

Jabari Parker is a fabulous offensive player who has much to learn about defense. A+
Quinn Cook is a very good guard who can score and distribute but is probably not a top defender against very quick guards. A-
Rodney Hood is a very savy and capable player who is excellent now and will develop further throughout the season. A-
Amile Jefferson is quick and cagey and can score but is not the strong rebounder we would like to have inside. A-
Rasheed Sualiman is a larger guard with excellent quickness and length and can penetrate, good defender. A-
Tyler Thornton game is one of intimidation and physical guarding but is limited offensively and fouls too much. B-
Josh Hairston is a smaller inside player who relied on close guarding and taking charges but is limited offensively C
Alex Murphy has the size, athletic ability and offensive possibilities to make him a reasonable substitute at forward B
Matt Jones has a lot of positives, with offensive and defensive capabilities but is a raw freshman who should improve B-
Marshall Plumley has size but is still pretty unused to the speed of the game. He should help in some situations C
Semi Olijeye (sp) has a lot of athletic ability but is a raw freshman. Best hope here is to get time in less competitive games C
Andre Dawkins has shown a lot of ability in the past but hasn't got a sniff at PT as yet. Unknown

Based on my current take, I would like to see Jabari, Quinn, Rodney, Amile and Rasheed get the majority of the PT, with Tyler substituting at PG, Alex at PF and Matt at SG with Marshall/Josh subbing at C. By using non starting freshmen in games where we have a solid lead, we can assess their abilities going forward and perhaps Matt and Semi will assume a larger role later in the season.






Important safety tip: do not do not do not grade Duke players. I've heard that Coach K generally does not approve of that.:cool:

_Gary
11-14-2013, 11:41 AM
Yea they've pretty much done away with charges. They might as well call it the "Duke rule."

Yep, Calipari got what he wanted. It took about a year, but he got it done with his whining. Amazing - and sad.

OldPhiKap
11-14-2013, 12:03 PM
Important safety tip: do not do not do not grade Duke players. I've heard that Coach K generally does not approve of that.:cool:

Yeah, I was going to post a similar warning. But I do applaud the OP for putting out his/her opinion in a fair manner.

From my perspective, it is too early for me to say how each player will fit in. Quinn, Amile, Jabari and Rodney all look great. I love Sheed's game and TT's tenacity, both will play and I don't really care who starts and who comes in next. Josh knows the system and, as mentioned somewhere else, no charges seem to be called in any game so far this year -- that will be an adjustment, but Josh gets to defensive position on a driver as well as anyone; if that's a foul, better than giving up a lay-up.

Matt and Alex both have the ability to earn more time as the year goes on, I really like both of their games.

Marshall and Semi are both raw, with good upside. You can't teach 7' 0", and you can't teach beast.

Dre is running his own race, like everyone else. I'm pulling for him, and he always has a smile and enthusiasm whenever the camera turns to him. What a great representative of our University.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
11-14-2013, 12:24 PM
Yep, Calipari got what he wanted. It took about a year, but he got it done with his whining. Amazing - and sad.

I think this is a bit disingenuous. Yes, Duke was adept at drawing charges and used that to their advantage. But, at the end of the day, if rules are enforced evenly, it is Duke's responsibility to play within those new rules. I don't see it as a blow to Duke basketball by it's nature.

On offense, it actually has the potential to be a big boon, as this is one of the speedier and more athletic teams we've had in quite some time. If defenses can't handcheck us on the perimeter, that can mean more space for jumpers and a quicker first step to the basket.

Now, if every game plays out like the early season games we've seen, I'm going to get really tired of two and a half hour games with very little flow. If I wanted to watch that, I'd be a Big Ten fan. Here's to hoping that teams across the board can make the changes necessary for games to have much better continuity and more reasonable total game times.

Go Duke!

1999ballboy
11-14-2013, 12:37 PM
Duke outplayed Kansas for 30 minutes. Narrowly, but still outplayed them. Foul shooting hurt. Kansas seemed to have a bit more fight in them at the end. Credit to them and to Bill Self.

Jabari Parker and Julius Randle are both plainly better than Andrew Wiggins right now. In 5 years, who knows, but right now it isn't even close.

flyingdutchdevil
11-14-2013, 12:49 PM
Yes - a few are doing it on this board. It is the most petty thing a fan can do. It's equivalent to a little child screaming because his sibling got more chocolate sprinkles on his ice cream.

Refs aren't bias. They have an incredibly difficult job because they rarely rely on technology. They sometimes miss calls, but they don't do it on purpose and clearly aren't favoring one team or the other.

It's petty. It's really really petty.

Billy Dat
11-14-2013, 12:56 PM
Jabari Parker and Julius Randle are both plainly better than Andrew Wiggins right now. In 5 years, who knows, but right now it isn't even close.

I think its closer than you suggest, they are just different players. Wiggins had 22 and 8 in only 25 minutes of action and he made most of the game winning plays in the final few minutes. Jabari is certainly a more complete offensive player, but Wiggins is likely the superior defender. In fact, Wiggins is probably the best defender of the 3, and that might not even be close. It's easy to always focus on offense, but defense is 50% of the game. I'd say, overall, they are all probably equal but Wiggins has all that offensive upside which is why the scouts are drooling.

tommy
11-14-2013, 12:58 PM
Yes - a few are doing it on this board. It is the most petty thing a fan can do. It's equivalent to a little child screaming because his sibling got more chocolate sprinkles on his ice cream.Refs aren't bias. They have an incredibly difficult job because they rarely rely on technology. They sometimes miss calls, but they don't do it on purpose and clearly aren't favoring one team or the other.It's petty. It's really really petty.With the exception of the apparently phantom 5th foul call on Jabari, I don't think people are complaining about the job the refs did, and certainly aren't saying they're biased. I think the concern being expressed is with the rule changes themselves. The refs are doing what they've been told to do, which is enforce the new defensive rules. The rule changes have made an obvious difference in the way the game is played and the flow of the game, but the teams will adjust. Just going to take some time. I think that once the teams adjust and stop doing a lll the grabbing and holding which was the motivation for the rule changes, the refs will relax and stop calling the really ticky tack stuff they're calling right now. If I'm right, the result will be the proper equilibrium in the game.

TexHawk
11-14-2013, 01:04 PM
Jabari Parker and Julius Randle are both plainly better than Andrew Wiggins right now. In 5 years, who knows, but right now it isn't even close.

Yeee---owza. I have stayed out of the Wiggins discussion since Tuesday, out of respect... But man. Plainly!?!?! Not even close?!?!?

22 points, 8 rebounds. 25 minutes. 60% shooting. 1 turnover. Loose defensive assignment: 11 points, 3 boards.
27 points, 9 rebounds. 33 minutes. 50% shooting. 2 turnovers. Loose defensive assignment: 24 points, 9 boards.
27 points, 13 rebounds. 35 minutes. 64% shooting. 8 turnovers. Loose defensive assignment: 15 points, 3 boards.

Seriously? They are all really really good basketball players. No fanbase would trade their guy for another. Can we leave it at that?

Ichabod Drain
11-14-2013, 01:05 PM
Yeee---owza. I have stayed out of the Wiggins discussion since Tuesday, out of respect... But man. Plainly!?!?! Not even close?!?!?

22 points, 10 rebounds. 25 minutes. 60% shooting. 1 turnover. Loose defensive assignment: 11 points, 3 boards.
27 points, 9 rebounds. 33 minutes. 50% shooting. 2 turnovers. Loose defensive assignment: 24 points, 9 boards.
27 points, 13 rebounds. 35 minutes. 64% shooting. 8 turnovers. Loose defensive assignment: 15 points, 3 boards.

Seriously? They are all really really good basketball players. No fanbase would trade their guy for another. Can we leave it at that?

Wiggins only had 8 rebounds

Potato Head
11-14-2013, 01:08 PM
the apparently phantom 5th foul call on Jabari

I didn't see anything on the first replay, but when they showed the second it looked like he pretty clearly hit Wiggins' arm.

As for not complaining about refs, what's the point of watching sports if you can't complain about officiating? I thought the calls in this game were bad, but they didn't favor one team over another, so I've got no complaints on that front, other than a general dissatisfaction with the direction of the sport as a whole.

TexHawk
11-14-2013, 01:09 PM
Wiggins only had 8 rebounds

Fixed. Thanks.

ArnieMc
11-14-2013, 01:40 PM
Roy, was that call made by our dear Brian Kersey?
He's a fan fav in Cameron. What amazing lead piercing vision he has.
He's on the inside track for the Karl Hess Award this year.No, that was Mike Stuart, but I know what you mean about Brian. I've always liked him - mostly because his dad refereed our summer league one year, but he's beginning to remind me of Dick Paparo.

Billy Dat
11-14-2013, 01:53 PM
Luke Winn of SI has his first Power Rankings up (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131114/michigan-state-spartans-top-power-rankings/#ixzz2keCZyqyY) - a weekly must-read in my opinion

"Second thing, related to coverboy Jabari Parker, who was the star of stars in the Champions Classic: I didn't realize how much Duke would have to rely on him for defensive rebounding. Parker has grabbed 30.8 percent of available defensive boards thus far, while the Blue Devils' five-man in its smallball lineup, Amile Jefferson, has just one defensive board in 37 minutes of playing time. Ideally Duke would defensive rebound by a committee of Parker, Jefferson, Rodney Hood and Rasheed Sulaimon, but that has yet to be the case. A second strong glass-cleaner needs to emerge for them to be a true title contender."

FerryFor50
11-14-2013, 02:25 PM
Wiggins only had 8 rebounds

I think TexHawk was referring to Perry Ellis on the 9 rebounds, who Parker defended. Parker was not on Wiggins most of the night (which I correctly predicted here (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?32220-MBB-Duke-vs-Kansas-Pre-Game-and-In-Game-Thread&p=675561#post675561):)).

I think people are giving Wiggins a little too much credit for his offensive output against Duke. He lagged on defense a few times and ended up rewarded for "cherry picking."

I will give him credit for the step back jumper with 1:30 left in a tie game. That was ice cold.

FerryFor50
11-14-2013, 02:33 PM
Luke Winn of SI has his first Power Rankings up (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20131114/michigan-state-spartans-top-power-rankings/#ixzz2keCZyqyY) - a weekly must-read in my opinion

"Second thing, related to coverboy Jabari Parker, who was the star of stars in the Champions Classic: I didn't realize how much Duke would have to rely on him for defensive rebounding. Parker has grabbed 30.8 percent of available defensive boards thus far, while the Blue Devils' five-man in its smallball lineup, Amile Jefferson, has just one defensive board in 37 minutes of playing time. Ideally Duke would defensive rebound by a committee of Parker, Jefferson, Rodney Hood and Rasheed Sulaimon, but that has yet to be the case. A second strong glass-cleaner needs to emerge for them to be a true title contender."

This part was interesting:


On Tuesday, for a too-short period of the second half, we got to see Wiggins check Parker. That was when Parker's momentum from a brilliant first half finally slowed. Plays like the one below are why NBA scouts like Wiggins' potential as a two-way talent. Parker tries to post him up, gets bumped off his initial spot, and attempts a nice, fadeaway J -- only to have Wiggins spring out of a squared-up defensive stance and manage to get a fingertip on the ball. Even when you're 6-8, deflecting another 6-8 star's fadeaway isn't easy.

I remember that play. I thought "great defense." Then I thought, WHY IS KANSAS GETTING THE BALL?

See, I also thought Wiggins touched it, which was why it was an airball. But KU got possession. Grr.

FerryFor50
11-14-2013, 02:38 PM
Also good from that Winn article:


The Next 16: Suspension Purgatory: North Carolina

jimsumner
11-14-2013, 02:57 PM
This part was interesting:



I remember that play. I thought "great defense." Then I thought, WHY IS KANSAS GETTING THE BALL?

See, I also thought Wiggins touched it, which was why it was an airball. But KU got possession. Grr.

I agree with Winn. I'm increasingly coming to the view that Amile Jefferson is the key to the Duke season. He simply has to rebound better and play better interior D. I know he's not a bruiser but he's long enough, quick enough, jumps high enough to have more of a positive impact in those areas than he has so far.

Ichabod Drain
11-14-2013, 03:04 PM
I think TexHawk was referring to Perry Ellis on the 9 rebounds, who Parker defended. Parker was not on Wiggins most of the night (which I correctly predicted here (http://forums.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?32220-MBB-Duke-vs-Kansas-Pre-Game-and-In-Game-Thread&p=675561#post675561):)).


I was just correcting his stats that showed Wiggins with 10 rebs. Official box score he only had 8.

TexHawk
11-14-2013, 03:22 PM
I think people are giving Wiggins a little too much credit for his offensive output against Duke. He lagged on defense a few times and ended up rewarded for "cherry picking."

Serious question... who is giving Wiggins too much credit for his offensive output? (Other than me, I suppose.) All I have seen is some talking heads and message board posters unequivocally giving Randle/Parker the "win" in the Randle/Parker/Wiggins debate. Because they scored 5 more points in 8-10 more minutes of time on the court.

Ok, I have too much time on my hands.

Andrew Wiggins made dunk
Andrew Wiggins made 2-point shot (after offensive rebound)
Andrew Wiggins made layup (off Embiid's pass out of the double team)
Andrew Wiggins made layup (off of a set play after halftime)
Andrew Wiggins made dunk (this was an alley-oop. Wiggins was standing under the basket when Hood missed a layup)
Andrew Wiggins made dunk (off of the Parker fake around the back, this could possibly be construed as a "cherry pick")
Andrew Wiggins made tip-in (off his own miss, Thornton guarding him)
Andrew Wiggins made two free throws
Andrew Wiggins made 2-point shot (the step back)
Andrew Wiggins made dunk (Parker fouls out)
Andrew Wiggins made two free throws

I will give you that the dunk off of Parker's out of control layup could be construed as a "cherry pick". But I fail to see any others. Just because the guy had some separation in transition doesn't always mean he's lazy, he could be really really fast.

Troublemaker
11-14-2013, 03:25 PM
This part was interesting:



I remember that play. I thought "great defense." Then I thought, WHY IS KANSAS GETTING THE BALL?

See, I also thought Wiggins touched it, which was why it was an airball. But KU got possession. Grr.

Yeah, I remember commenting in the offseason about how I'd never seen a player challenge and sometimes block other elite players' fadeaways as often as Wiggins. He's just a freak, and I bet that doesn't happen to Jabari again this season.

_Gary
11-14-2013, 05:07 PM
Since a couple of posters are saying some fans here are blaming the refs (or Calipari), let me make one thing perfectly clear: I am not. Period. We lost and it had zilch to do with the refs. Just wanted to say that. I can't vouch for anyone else, but I don't want to be accused of something I absolutely do not believe.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program. :)

moonpie23
11-14-2013, 05:31 PM
"the refs" is the lame excuse of wildcats and Tar Heels.

tommy
11-15-2013, 03:26 AM
I agree with Winn. I'm increasingly coming to the view that Amile Jefferson is the key to the Duke season. He simply has to rebound better and play better interior D. I know he's not a bruiser but he's long enough, quick enough, jumps high enough to have more of a positive impact in those areas than he has so far.

I agree that Amile is a major key to this team reaching its potential this year, and he did not rebound well against Kansas. But his interior D was fine. The guy who did almost all of the damage on the interior for Kansas was Ellis, and the great majority of his inside hoops were scored against Jabari Parker, not Amile.


Kansas's bigs were more effective than the box score indicates. They didn't necessarily score off of many of their post ups, but alot of those post ups led to passes to open cutters and easy layups.

They really weren't. There wasn't one time where one of their bigs hit a cutter for an easy layup. None of them had any success in posting and scoring (well, Embiid got one -- one) other than Ellis, who like I said above, beat Jabari a number of times on the post, got him on his hip or otherwise out of position, and received some good entry passes including a couple over the top when we had no help in the area.


I was wondering if anyone noticed that we actually increased our lead while Marshall was in last night. I know it might have been fools gold, but I think his size gave Kansas problems

It wasn't that. It was that when Marshall was in the game, Jabari hit 2 consecutive 3-pointers, turning one into a 4-point play, and then Rasheed hit an outside jumper after that. Marshall was thrown the ball one time, on an in-bounds play, and unfortunately he fumbled it away.

jimsumner
11-15-2013, 11:55 AM
I agree that Amile is a major key to this team reaching its potential this year, and he did not rebound well against Kansas. But his interior D was fine. The guy who did almost all of the damage on the interior for Kansas was Ellis, and the great majority of his inside hoops were scored against Jabari Parker, not Amile.





True. But lots of blocks and intimidations come from weak-side help defenders. No reason some can't come from Jefferson.

There is going to be a premium this season on quick players getting to the basket off their dribble. You need to have some way to dissuade them.

I don't expect Jefferson to morph into Shelden Williams on D. But Tony Lang would be nice.

Saratoga2
11-15-2013, 12:51 PM
True. But lots of blocks and intimidations come from weak-side help defenders. No reason some can't come from Jefferson.

There is going to be a premium this season on quick players getting to the basket off their dribble. You need to have some way to dissuade them.

I don't expect Jefferson to morph into Shelden Williams on D. But Tony Lang would be nice.

With Jabari fronting much of the time and with foul trouble mounting, we needed someone to rotate over and take away easy baskets from the pass over Jabari. That might have been Amile as I cant think of anyone else that would be in a position to do that. That kind of help would also put Amile in a better position to rebound.

I think both Jabari and Rodney were wearing down late in the game and they had four fouls each. I really wonder if giving them more of a break by subbing in Alex or even Semi and Marshall to give them a rest might have yielded as good a result.

Neither Tyler nor Quinn is super fast and there will be times when we will face very quick guards who will penetrate. Kansas did have a lot of quickness at guard. Our guards also played a lot of minutes or were in foul trouble. I think we will have to accept penetration against some teams. Our best bet to counter the problem might be to use more of our depth and penetrate against the opposition guards and perhaps build up their fouls. More of Matt subbing for Rasheed and more of Tyler subbing for Quinn. Keep the pressure on their guards.

tommy
11-15-2013, 01:48 PM
True. But lots of blocks and intimidations come from weak-side help defenders. No reason some can't come from Jefferson.

There is going to be a premium this season on quick players getting to the basket off their dribble. You need to have some way to dissuade them.

I don't expect Jefferson to morph into Shelden Williams on D. But Tony Lang would be nice.

Reasonable. But in your recollection, was Tony Lang an appreciably better defender after 2 games of his sophomore year than Amile is now?

Troublemaker
11-15-2013, 04:29 PM
A net win for Duke this week, I'd say.

jimsumner
11-15-2013, 04:50 PM
Reasonable. But in your recollection, was Tony Lang an appreciably better defender after 2 games of his sophomore year than Amile is now?

I suspect he would have had more than two rebounds after his first 37 minutes.

Obviously, I think Jefferson can get better or I wouldn't have raised the subject of him getting better. I don't think anyone sees Duke playing deep into March with a starting center averaging a rebound per game.

If we know this, I suspect Jefferson and his coaches also know it. So, I will be surprised and disappointed if we don't see a much more aggressive and productive Jefferson tonight and afterwards.

Kedsy
11-15-2013, 05:03 PM
I suspect he would have had more than two rebounds after his first 37 minutes.

Tony Lang's rebounding totals the first three games of his sophomore season: 1 vs. St. Johns (16 mins), 5 vs. Canisius (21 mins), 1 vs. Michigan (17 mins). So, yeah, more than Amile after 37 minutes, but I'll bet after tonight Amile has more after 54 minutes.