VaTech "apology"?

[tombrady]

From an article on the front page:


"Recently we teed off on Seung Hui Cho, the student who killed 32 people at Tech. A psychiatrist wrote in to remind us that he was a seriously ill young man, a fact underscored by a recent Post article which discussed one disorder which had been diagnosed in high school but unfortunately was not addressed after that.

Our doctor friend was right. It’s easy and perhaps understandable to be angry at such an event, but he was a very sick young man."
The disorder I read about was that he had trouble speaking in public, and this made classroom settings difficult. Obviously theres more that goes along with it, but I don't really care that he had this disorder. His actions are just as reprehensible.

The "but" at the begining of "but he was a very sick man" almost seems to apologize for his actions -- well, he was sick, what he did was understandable.

Absolutely not. I'm glad he's no longer around.

[VaDukie]

His disorders were far more complicated than that. His actions are worlds beyond defending, but if we don't take a clearer look at mental health in this country then the incident may be unfortunatley repeated.

[Cameron]

Well, he's sleeping with the Angels in Hell now. All is forgiven. Justice has been served.

[DukeDude]

His disorders were far more complicated than that. His actions are worlds beyond defending, but if we don't take a clearer look at mental health in this country then the incident may be unfortunatley repeated.

I can almost guarantee that the incident will be repeated. Whether it is from a lack of understanding of mental health, lack of health insurance, or a belief that you will can go to heaven by killing non-believers, you can be sure that some sick individual will try to reproduce this tragic event. It is unavoidable.

[allenmurray]

I can almost guarantee that the incident will be repeated. Whether it is from a lack of understanding of mental health, lack of health insurance, or a belief that you will can go to heaven by killing non-believers, you can be sure that some sick individual will try to reproduce this tragic event. It is unavoidable.

Yes, it will happen again, so it is not possible to prevent this from ever happening. However, individual instances can be prevented. People with serious mental illness who are well monitored and supervised, and who are required to take their meds regularly as a condition of not being involuntarily committed to a locked institution, live among us all of the time. The number of incidents like this that have been prevented is probably far, far higher than those that have slippped through the cracks.

In the case of DBR's article I certainly didn't see it as an attempt to "apologize" or excuse Cho's actions as did TomBrady. It is possible to see something as tragic and to hold someone accountable for their actions while at the same time pointing out that there were steps that could have been taken to prevent this incident, and others like it, from happening.

As a society, particularly our mental health and educational institutions, we need to learn all that we can from this incident in order to lessen the liklihood of it happening again. Even the severest of punishments won't keep someone who suffers from a genuine mental illness from acting - that is the nature of the mental illness. Sure, hold Cho accountable, but unless we want it to hapen again we need to learn something. If someone is out of touch with reality fear of social sanction or penalty will not keep them from acting in destructive and dangerous ways. Late teen/early adulthood is by far the most common age for onset of symptoms of serious mental illnesses. It is also the first time that most foolks live outside of the safety and structure of a familiar, supportive, and supervised environment.

[Methodistman]

Could this thread possibly be moved to a more applicable "off topic" or "public policy" board?

[Uncle Drew]

Just wanted to chime in on a couple of VT related things. First I heard VT football coach Frank Beamer say he told his players to play for those slain in the massacre. I've heard of coaches using various things as motivational tools to get teams pumped up. But to use the deaths and memories of the fallen in my opinion is tacky at best. I assure you those that died where ever their souls may rest couldn't care less how much VT runs the score up on ECU. What happened was a horrible tragedy but the VT football team like the rest of the school should focus on moving on and preventing it from happening again. Have a moment of silence a prayer even, if that's politically correct these days. But use the hurt / grief / rage of an entire community to try and determine what happens in a football game is sick.

Second some posters have made a few comments about Seung Hui Cho, the gunman in the massacre. God knows what he did is horrible, there is no excuse for it and no one can defend his actions in any way. Where his soul is at the moment is between him and God, but nobody in their right mind could or would do what he did. I don't know all the details but it has been revealed he had undergone psychiatric care in the past and either was on or had been on medication. There is an old saying, "there but by the grace of God go I", and while it doesn't excuse what he did nobody knows what issues brought him to that point. Some psychological conditions are hereditary others can be brought on by circumstances such as post traumatic stress disorder et. al. One in four people will go through a bout of clinical depression in their lifetime and others will be condemned to a lifetime of medication. Some things children live through scar them for the rest of their lives and end up leading them down a road of violence, crime, drugs etc. It's not an excuse for their actions, but for those who didn't live through those experiences it's really easy to cast blame from high atop your pedestal. The entire system in the VT massacre failed. Warning signs weren't heeded, doctors didn't do enough to help the shooter, the VT police dropped the ball it's handling of security etc. The goal should be to take a closer look at the communities we live in and identify potential threats and get them help, regardless of whether they have insurance, live in the right neighborhood or come from the right family.

[whereinthehellami]

Wow. I couldn't disagree with you more on both points.


Just wanted to chime in on a couple of VT related things. First I heard VT football coach Frank Beamer say he told his players to play for those slain in the massacre. I've heard of coaches using various things as motivational tools to get teams pumped up. But to use the deaths and memories of the fallen in my opinion is tacky at best. I assure you those that died where ever their souls may rest couldn't care less how much VT runs the score up on ECU. What happened was a horrible tragedy but the VT football team like the rest of the school should focus on moving on and preventing it from happening again. Have a moment of silence a prayer even, if that's politically correct these days. But use the hurt / grief / rage of an entire community to try and determine what happens in a football game is sick.

VT is a very tight knit community and football has always been near and dear to that community. Kind of like Duke with its basketball but more so. Frank Beamer grew up in VT's back yard, went to VT, and has coached there for around 20 years. After the tragedy Beamer was one of the pillars of stength on the campus, giving alot of time and effort to families (hospitals) and the news (which gets old quick). When VT needed him he stepped up big time. You have really misunderstood VT and the pride that everyone associated with the university feels and wants to show. VT is the epitome of a college town. Counting grad students, there are over 20 thousand students in a sleepy mountain town,that is supported by around 30 thousand people. VT was the last place you would expect something like this to happen and the people there were stunned beyond belief. After it happened, Beamer cancelled the spring football game and some practices (which were really needed). The spring game was to draw around 30 thousand fans and most of the hokies I know felt that Beamer should have had the game as a way for the community to come together. VT needs this football game more than ever as a community, for its spirit. Beamer is only answering that spirit.


Second some posters have made a few comments about Seung Hui Cho, the gunman in the massacre. God knows what he did is horrible, there is no excuse for it and no one can defend his actions in any way. Where his soul is at the moment is between him and God, but nobody in their right mind could or would do what he did. I don't know all the details but it has been revealed he had undergone psychiatric care in the past and either was on or had been on medication. There is an old saying, "there but by the grace of God go I", and while it doesn't excuse what he did nobody knows what issues brought him to that point. Some psychological conditions are hereditary others can be brought on by circumstances such as post traumatic stress disorder et. al. One in four people will go through a bout of clinical depression in their lifetime and others will be condemned to a lifetime of medication. Some things children live through scar them for the rest of their lives and end up leading them down a road of violence, crime, drugs etc. It's not an excuse for their actions, but for those who didn't live through those experiences it's really easy to cast blame from high atop your pedestal. The entire system in the VT massacre failed. Warning signs weren't heeded, doctors didn't do enough to help the shooter, the VT police dropped the ball it's handling of security etc. The goal should be to take a closer look at the communities we live in and identify potential threats and get them help, regardless of whether they have insurance, live in the right neighborhood or come from the right family.

VT did nothing wrong. Period. A sick and twisted individual is at fault. And if you want to spread blame I'd start with his parents and the individuals in the mental health field that saw the monster underneath and didn't fight the system.

IMO there will always be sick and twisted individuals. In our society, freedom comes at a price and part of that price is in dealing with the consequences of the sick and twisted. Could things have been better? Maybe. Could they have been prevented? I don't think so. He would have struck in some other way. Unless you want to lock up the sick and twisted, whick is a whole other topic.

Go Hokies!

[tombrady]

Wow. I couldn't disagree with you more on both points.



VT is a very tight knit community and football has always been near and dear to that community. Kind of like Duke with its basketball but more so. Frank Beamer grew up in VT's back yard, went to VT, and has coached there for around 20 years. After the tragedy Beamer was one of the pillars of stength on the campus, giving alot of time and effort to families (hospitals) and the news (which gets old quick). When VT needed him he stepped up big time. You have really misunderstood VT and the pride that everyone associated with the university feels and wants to show. VT is the epitome of a college town. Counting grad students, there are over 20 thousand students in a sleepy mountain town,that is supported by around 30 thousand people. VT was the last place you would expect something like this to happen and the people there were stunned beyond belief. After it happened, Beamer cancelled the spring football game and some practices (which were really needed). The spring game was to draw around 30 thousand fans and most of the hokies I know felt that Beamer should have had the game as a way for the community to come together. VT needs this football game more than ever as a community, for its spirit. Beamer is only answering that spirit.



VT did nothing wrong. Period. A sick and twisted individual is at fault. And if you want to spread blame I'd start with his parents and the individuals in the mental health field that saw the monster underneath and didn't fight the system.

IMO there will always be sick and twisted individuals. In our society, freedom comes at a price and part of that price is in dealing with the consequences of the sick and twisted. Could things have been better? Maybe. Could they have been prevented? I don't think so. He would have struck in some other way. Unless you want to lock up the sick and twisted, whick is a whole other topic.

Go Hokies!


I was gonna reply to Latta, but you hit the nail on the head. That report that came out yesterday blaming the VaTech cops for not reacting soon enough, etc...people are looking for someone else to blame. It was the Cho -- he's the only one to blame.

[allenmurray]

Today's Washington Post story on the report issued by the panel appointed by the governor of VA to investigate the VA Tech shooting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/29/AR2007082902237.html?hpid=topnews

Selected excerpts from the report

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/30/AR2007083000600.html?hpid=topnews

The complete report

http://www.governor.virginia.gov/TempContent/techPanelReport.cfm?hpid=topnews

I do not think that your statement that "VA Tech did nothing wrong" and the idea that similar situations might be better handled in the future are at all contradictory. If the entire community, VA Tech, public school authorities, mental health authorities, the idiots who sold him a gun in violation of federal law, etc. doesn't learn from this that will be a tragedy. It is more than approprite for folks to be angry at Cho, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to prevent future occurances of this type.

As for Beamer using the game as a focus for his players - different people grieve in different ways. For some this might be helpful, for others it might be meaningless. That goes for the players as well as the students and fans. As long as it is done in a way that is respectful I don't see any problem with what Beamer has done. On the other hand, it is important to remember that rage against the opponent is misplaced rage. Using the football game as some sort of catharsis might not be such a good idea. From what I understand the ECU players have been doing a lot of talking about how to be respectful while at the same time being competitive. The following is a quote from Khalif Mitchell, an ECU player:


"The students who were slain are students. We are student athletes with student being a first priority . . . the tragedy, although bad in its nature, brought all universities together and when we go out there we will play for them [the victims] even through they were Hokies."

Beamer firing up his team up to win in memory and in honor of the students seems natural. However, football is an emotional and brutal sport. If the emotionality of the players leads to them using this event as a physical catharsis to their grief, and somebody from another school becomes the temporary target of a player's rage and gets hurt, Beamer may begin to wonder if using the deaths of fellow students as a motivational tool was wise.

USA Today ran an article about the Va Tech athletic director asking his students to cheer for opposing teams as a way of showing their appreciation for all of the support other universities gave in the aftermath of the tragedy. I thought this was an especially classy move.

[Stray Gator]

With all due respect, and despite my general distaste for the practice of looking for someone to blame after every senseless tragedy, I must admit that after listening to an NPR segment on the drive to work this morning, and having now read excerpts of the Panel Report, it's not at all clear to me that "Virginia Tech did nothing wrong." If the reports are accurate, University officials received numerous complaints and cautionary warnings about this individual's behavioral problems and potential for causing harm to others from various sources--including professors who were disturbed by some of the written work he submitted, and fellow students who (according to the NPR report) were so fearful of this guy that some even stopped going to classes with him. The Panel Report also confirms what the NPR report stated--that while his emotional problems were carefully monitored and managed through high school, he grew out of control in college because Virginia Tech officials, even after being made aware of his problems by the aforementioned sources, remained "passive" and failed to take actions that would have either managed his mental disorder or removed him from the campus for treatment.

I understand that there are countervailing reasons being offered to excuse the Virginia Tech officials' failure to deal with this person's problems before he lost control, and even some justifications being asserted for the campus police not sounding a general alarm after the first fatal shooting of two students earlier that morning--before the killing spree 2 hours later that resulted in the deaths of many more students. Based on the quotes from some of the victims' parents, I won't be surprised if the culpability of Virginia Tech's administration, and the validity of their justifications for not taking precautionary action, is tested in one or more civil suits.

[cspan37421]

It is human nature to analyze the past and see what could have been done different to prevent a bad outcome. Hindsight is 20/20, and no one is perfect in real-time. Absent negligence, I am disinclined to give much weight to second-guessing people's actions which appeared to be reasonable to them at the time. What if he had never been violent, but was kicked out of school, and he sued the pants off VT under ADA? There'd be a different kind of second guessing: that they turned their back on one of their own, unfair treatment, and so forth.

As for his soul, whatever that is, I take no solace in myths of afterlife justice. Justice in this world is all that we can actually know in this life, and the uncertainty of anything after death is why it is so important. But I digress.

The request to cheer for opposing teams out of gratitude for their support, well it struck me as odd. Giving them an ovation when they take the field is one thing. Cheering when they score on your team is another. Presumably he didn't mean the latter, but it sounded ambiguous the way it is described in this thread.

[TillyGalore]

It is human nature to analyze the past and see what could have been done different to prevent a bad outcome. Hindsight is 20/20, and no one is perfect in real-time. Absent negligence, I am disinclined to give much weight to second-guessing people's actions which appeared to be reasonable to them at the time. What if he had never been violent, but was kicked out of school, and he sued the pants off VT under ADA? There'd be a different kind of second guessing: that they turned their back on one of their own, unfair treatment, and so forth.

As for his soul, whatever that is, I take no solace in myths of afterlife justice. Justice in this world is all that we can actually know in this life, and the uncertainty of anything after death is why it is so important. But I digress.

The request to cheer for opposing teams out of gratitude for their support, well it struck me as odd. Giving them an ovation when they take the field is one thing. Cheering when they score on your team is another. Presumably he didn't mean the latter, but it sounded ambiguous the way it is described in this thread.

I whole heartedly agree with your post.

I don't think the athletic director has asked the fans to cheer for the other teams this season. I believe he asked the fans to not boo the other teams this season.

[whereinthehellami]

With all due respect, and despite my general distaste for the practice of looking for someone to blame after every senseless tragedy, I must admit that after listening to an NPR segment on the drive to work this morning, and having now read excerpts of the Panel Report, it's not at all clear to me that "Virginia Tech did nothing wrong." If the reports are accurate, University officials received numerous complaints and cautionary warnings about this individual's behavioral problems and potential for causing harm to others from various sources--including professors who were disturbed by some of the written work he submitted, and fellow students who (according to the NPR report) were so fearful of this guy that some even stopped going to classes with him. The Panel Report also confirms what the NPR report stated--that while his emotional problems were carefully monitored and managed through high school, he grew out of control in college because Virginia Tech officials, even after being made aware of his problems by the aforementioned sources, remained "passive" and failed to take actions that would have either managed his mental disorder or removed him from the campus for treatment.

I understand that there are countervailing reasons being offered to excuse the Virginia Tech officials' failure to deal with this person's problems before he lost control, and even some justifications being asserted for the campus police not sounding a general alarm after the first fatal shooting of two students earlier that morning--before the killing spree 2 hours later that resulted in the deaths of many more students. Based on the quotes from some of the victims' parents, I won't be surprised if the culpability of Virginia Tech's administration, and the validity of their justifications for not taking precautionary action, is tested in one or more civil suits.

I don't have the stomach to look into all the details on this anymore for a solid rebuttal to the above. From my recollection, VT did take him out of classes and send him to see a doctor, who apprently thought he had the potential to harm himself but didn't have enough to hold him beyond that. We live in a society where people are given a ton of chances. The president of JMU (I think) wrote a beautiful letter about VT afterwards saying that he probably would have done the same thing, as that is the system that is in place. If VT kicked him out of school because a doctor said he had the possibility to harm himself but couldn't even hold him for that (Cho wanted to leave, remember the whole freedom thing) than they would have opened themselves to lawsuits (descrimination).

The people who are looking to blame VT in this are beyond disgusting to me. Makes my stomach turn thinking about it. Its amazing the things the media are saying/have said. The president should be fired for not locking down the campus after the original slayings. Why would you send 50 thousand people into terror when at the time everything pointed to a singular incident. Is it even possible to controal 50,000 people who live all over the place (off campus)? How about they lock down the campus with Cho locked in a residence hall? Think he would sit tight while they sort everything out? Then they attacked the VT police who don't carry guns. The Blacksburg police department is like two blocks from the campus. Thats enough guns close enough to a place of higher learning. Even after this, I don't want guns on a campus, they don't belong.

The blame in this lies with Cho, his parents, and the health care system for letting doctors cower behind beauracracy. How come parents get passes on all this stuff? How come they don't step up and apologize for the monster they created, feared, and let loose on the rest of us?

IMO these things can't be totally prevented. People have to want to be helped. And people hell bent on killing will kill. Yes, there are people out there who can't be saved and don't want to be saved. If Cho was kicked out of VT, he would have struck somewhere else. He struck VT hard. Time to move forward. Next play. But stop the witchhunt.

[TillyGalore]

The blame in this lies with ...his parents

I'm not sure I agree with this point as I doubt his parents really understood his mental illness. The Cho's are Korean and IIRC mental illness is not something that is even addressed in East Asian cultures. In this case I'm not sure I'd lay blame on his parents.

[Stray Gator]

It is human nature to analyze the past and see what could have been done different to prevent a bad outcome. Hindsight is 20/20, and no one is perfect in real-time. Absent negligence, I am disinclined to give much weight to second-guessing people's actions which appeared to be reasonable to them at the time. What if he had never been violent, but was kicked out of school, and he sued the pants off VT under ADA? There'd be a different kind of second guessing: that they turned their back on one of their own, unfair treatment, and so forth. ...

I agree with your observations to the extent that the culpability of a person or an institution should properly be evaluated based solely on what they knew and could reasonably have foreseen at the time they had to make decisions, without applying a standard that invokes 20-20 hindsight to hold them accountable for subsequent events that could not fairly have been predicted. But determining what they could have reasonably foreseen depends on the quantum and gravity of the information that was provided to them before the incident occurred. In fact, that is the basis upon which damages are awarded by juries against defendants for "negligent hiring" or "negligent supervision" claims. An employer has a duty not to bring into the workplace or put into contact with customers an employee who has a record of behavior harmful to others or who has demonstrated a propensity for abnormal behavior that a reasonable person would have foreseen could lead to violent action. Arguably, at least, a University has the same duty to its students and other members of the campus community.

I readily concede that I do not know whether Va Tech administrators had enough information about this individual to be deemed at fault; but IMO it's equally untenable to declare flatly that they "did nothing wrong." And that was my point. The results of the investigation so far indicate that Va Tech administrators not only had received a significant number of reports from multiple sources about the potential danger this student posed, but did virtually no screening of his application for admission. At some point, cumulative knowledge of such complaints and warnings, coupled with a lack of due diligence in failing to scrutinize his record and behavior more closely, may justify the conclusion that Va Tech officials should be considered responsible to some degree for not taking action that could have prevented this incident. Whether public officials or a jury is asked to make that determination remains to be seen. All I'm saying is that the information presently available does not, IMO, conclusively establish that Va Tech "did nothing wrong."

[JG Nothing]

How come parents get passes on all this stuff? How come they don't step up and apologize for the monster they created, feared, and let loose on the rest of us?
Cho's parents did apologize.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9724353
In your own words, "stop the witchhunt."