Athleticism

[BD80]

FWIW, is it not true that African Americans make up a greater percentage of our roster this year than ever in Duke hoops history? Like perhaps ten out of twelve (not counting Zaf)?

Does that mean it is one of our most athletic teams?

I find it amusing that we lost Mason, not just athletic by Duke standards, highly athletic by NBA standards, and bring in Jabari - the most complete basketball player in the freshmen class, perhaps in all of college basketball this year, who is not considered to be overly athletic. None of our players really "jump" out at you as highly athletic, Josh and Tyler are relatively earthbound. No one has the Gerald Henderson or even Nolan Smith kind of athleticism.

But I'll bet nobody calls the team "relatively unathletic."

[GGLC]

None of our players really "jump" out at you as highly athletic

Semi says hi.

[BD80]

Semi says hi.

Sorry, I meant to say expected rotation players.

So I guess this is a semi-apology.

[Ichabod Drain]

Does that mean it is one of our most athletic teams?

I find it amusing that we lost Mason, not just athletic by Duke standards, highly athletic by NBA standards, and bring in Jabari - the most complete basketball player in the freshmen class, perhaps in all of college basketball this year, who is not considered to be overly athletic. None of our players really "jump" out at you as highly athletic, Josh and Tyler are relatively earthbound. No one has the Gerald Henderson or even Nolan Smith kind of athleticism.

But I'll bet nobody calls the team "relatively unathletic."

I would say Sheed is slightly more athletic than Nolan, but a little less so than Gerald.

[Skitzle]

Does that mean it is one of our most athletic teams?

I find it amusing that we lost Mason, not just athletic by Duke standards, highly athletic by NBA standards, and bring in Jabari - the most complete basketball player in the freshmen class, perhaps in all of college basketball this year, who is not considered to be overly athletic. None of our players really "jump" out at you as highly athletic, Josh and Tyler are relatively earthbound. No one has the Gerald Henderson or even Nolan Smith kind of athleticism.

But I'll bet nobody calls the team "relatively unathletic."


I was under the impression that Hood was extremely athletic (not in the sneak Jabari way), but more so than say Nolan Smith.

In that respect, who was more athletic.... Smith or Ewing?

[flyingdutchdevil]

I was under the impression that Hood was extremely athletic (not in the sneak Jabari way), but more so than say Nolan Smith.

In that respect, who was more athletic.... Smith or Ewing?

I'd argue that both Smith and Ewing are averagely athletic. I define athleticism as the blend between strength, speed, agility, and length. Here is a scale of athleticism I would use, using only Duke players from the last 5 or so years:

1 - Greg Paulus / Seth Curry
2 - Jon Scheyer / David McClure
3 - Nolan Smith / Kyle Singler
4 - Kyrie Irving / Luol Deng
5 - Gerald Henderson / Demarcus Nelson

Just because you are unathletic doesn't mean you can't add value to the team. I think that is a huge misrepresentation of college ball. Aaron Craft adds insane value to OSU, and he's one of the more unathletic players that OSU has had.

Also, athleticism has a lot to do with genetics. That's just the way it is. Mason Plumlee's mom was a volleyball player; his dad a basketball player. I'd say that Mason had an unfair advantage on the "athleticism" scale.

[JasonEvans]

Can we measure athleticism with cinder blocks? If you can;'t measure it with cinder blocks, I am not sure it is measurable, right?

-Jason "giggle" Evans

[fuse]

I'd argue that both Smith and Ewing are averagely athletic. I define athleticism as the blend between strength, speed, agility, and length. Here is a scale of athleticism I would use, using only Duke players from the last 5 or so years:

1 - Greg Paulus / Seth Curry
2 - Jon Scheyer / David McClure
3 - Nolan Smith / Kyle Singler
4 - Kyrie Irving / Luol Deng
5 - Gerald Henderson / Demarcus Nelson

Just because you are unathletic doesn't mean you can't add value to the team. I think that is a huge misrepresentation of college ball. Aaron Craft adds insane value to OSU, and he's one of the more unathletic players that OSU has had.

Also, athleticism has a lot to do with genetics. That's just the way it is. Mason Plumlee's mom was a volleyball player; his dad a basketball player. I'd say that Mason had an unfair advantage on the "athleticism" scale.

No disrespect, and maybe I am mixing athleticism with competitiveness and some other factors, but I see Kyrie as every bit as good or better an athlete than Gerald or DeMarcus. Gerald is a better dunker, sure, but not a better athlete.

[kAzE]

I was under the impression that Hood was extremely athletic (not in the sneak Jabari way), but more so than say Nolan Smith.

In that respect, who was more athletic.... Smith or Ewing?

I really don't understand the perception that Jabari is not athletic. Skitzle, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I just don't understand why he's perceived that way. Alright, he's not Lebron . . . but seriously, he can't even be measured on that scale of 1-5. There's never been ANYONE like Lebron with that combination of size, strength, speed, quickness, leaping ability, and obviously, skill. He's on a totally different level.

But Jabari is 6-8, 240, and he looked pretty athletic to me from the CTC game. He was pretty fast on a couple of fast breaks (especially for a 240 pounder), such as that early coast to coast layup with a sick hesitation dribble in the lane, and looked pretty quick, and showed a pretty nice standing jump on that baseline spin and dunk over Hairston. He's also got impressive wingspan.

We all get that he's not Andrew Wiggins physically, but why does he have to be "sneaky" athletic? I think he's just pretty damn athletic, period. You have to keep in mind that he was dealing with a major injury all last year, and the ramifications of that injury, which include not playing at 100%, and the bad weight that he gained while rehabbing. In fact, he's still not in top physical condition yet, and I expect that to improve throughout the year. On that scale of 1-5, I'd probably put him at 4.5 . . . you have to consider how big he is. He is a very, very large kid.

Also, I dunno about DeMarcus as a 5. I think the only real 5's that come immediately to mind for me are Grant Hill, Dahntay Jones, and Gerald Henderson. Semi looks like a 5 as well. Nelson was exceptionally strong, but not so great in terms of leaping or quickness. He's a 4. Same for Mason, great leaper, good speed for a 6'10" guy, but very average quickness. Kyrie is a 5 for me . . he's about one of the quickest guards I've ever seen and his strength is unreal. People really underrate how strong Kyrie is. The reason he's one of the best finishers around the rim, even after taking contact, is because of his superb upper and lower body strength.

[Skitzle]

I really don't understand the perception that Jabari is not athletic. Skitzle, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I just don't understand why he's perceived that way. Alright, he's not Lebron . . . but seriously, he can't even be measured on that scale of 1-5. There's never been ANYONE like Lebron with that combination of size, strength, speed, quickness, leaping ability, and obviously, skill. He's on a totally different level.

But Jabari is 6-8, 240, and he looked pretty athletic to me from the CTC game. He was pretty fast on a couple of fast breaks (especially for a 240 pounder), such as that early coast to coast layup with a sick hesitation dribble in the lane, and looked pretty quick, and showed a pretty nice standing jump on that baseline spin and dunk over Hairston. He's also got impressive wingspan.

We all get that he's not Andrew Wiggins physically, but why does he have to be "sneaky" athletic? I think he's just pretty damn athletic, period. You have to keep in mind that he was dealing with a major injury all last year, and the ramifications of that injury, which include not playing at 100%, and the bad weight that he gained while rehabbing. In fact, he's still not in top physical condition yet, and I expect that to improve throughout the year. On that scale of 1-5, I'd probably put him at 4.5 . . . you have to consider how big he is. He is a very, very large kid.

Also, I dunno about DeMarcus as a 5. I think the only real 5's that come immediately to mind for me are Grant Hill, Dahntay Jones, and Gerald Henderson. Semi looks like a 5 as well. Nelson was exceptionally strong, but not so great in terms of leaping or quickness. He's a 4. Same for Mason, great leaper, good speed for a 6'10" guy, but very average quickness. Kyrie is a 5 for me . . he's about one of the quickest guards I've ever seen and his strength is unreal. People really underrate how strong Kyrie is. The reason he's one of the best finishers around the rim, even after taking contact, is because of his superb upper and lower body strength.

Great post. I agree with most of this. I say sneaky athleticism because he's clearly more athletic than people give him credit for. People have been giving Wiggins the 5 treatment, and at a similar height, he is more athletic than Parker, I think that's why people have been underestimating Jabari.

Still doesn't answer my question :D Who is more athletic... Parker or Hood? (or Winslow... you can ignore this option but I felt the need to put it in there after looking at the thread topic :D)

[luvdahops]

I really don't understand the perception that Jabari is not athletic. Skitzle, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I just don't understand why he's perceived that way. Alright, he's not Lebron . . . but seriously, he can't even be measured on that scale of 1-5. There's never been ANYONE like Lebron with that combination of size, strength, speed, quickness, leaping ability, and obviously, skill. He's on a totally different level.

But Jabari is 6-8, 240, and he looked pretty athletic to me from the CTC game. He was pretty fast on a couple of fast breaks (especially for a 240 pounder), such as that early coast to coast layup with a sick hesitation dribble in the lane, and looked pretty quick, and showed a pretty nice standing jump on that baseline spin and dunk over Hairston. He's also got impressive wingspan.

We all get that he's not Andrew Wiggins physically, but why does he have to be "sneaky" athletic? I think he's just pretty damn athletic, period. You have to keep in mind that he was dealing with a major injury all last year, and the ramifications of that injury, which include not playing at 100%, and the bad weight that he gained while rehabbing. In fact, he's still not in top physical condition yet, and I expect that to improve throughout the year. On that scale of 1-5, I'd probably put him at 4.5 . . . you have to consider how big he is. He is a very, very large kid.

Also, I dunno about DeMarcus as a 5. I think the only real 5's that come immediately to mind for me are Grant Hill, Dahntay Jones, and Gerald Henderson. Semi looks like a 5 as well. Nelson was exceptionally strong, but not so great in terms of leaping or quickness. He's a 4. Same for Mason, great leaper, good speed for a 6'10" guy, but very average quickness. Kyrie is a 5 for me . . he's about one of the quickest guards I've ever seen and his strength is unreal. People really underrate how strong Kyrie is. The reason he's one of the best finishers around the rim, even after taking contact, is because of his superb upper and lower body strength.

Not sure if DeMarcus warrants a 5, either, but he was quite a leaper. Max Vertical of 38.5 at the 2008 Draft Combine, only slightly lower than Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon (40.0 each), both of whom are considered outstanding leapers. For a guy who measured 6-1 in socks, Nelson threw down a number of rim rattling slams during his Duke career. He also had the fastest time in the agility test at the 2008 Combine.

[sagegrouse]

Not sure if DeMarcus warrants a 5, either, but he was quite a leaper. Max Vertical of 38.5 at the 2008 Draft Combine, only slightly lower than Derrick Rose and Eric Gordon (40.0 each), both of whom are considered outstanding leapers. For a guy who measured 6-1 in socks, Nelson threw down a number of rim rattling slams during his Duke career. He also had the fastest time in the agility test at the 2008 Combine.

If we are going gaga over "athleticism," we should probably agree on a definition. Or, better, "agree to disagree."

#1. To me, it is the basic physical skills of running, jumping and -- probably -- throwing. You know, the decathlon.

#2. If you just want to stick to "twitchiness," then you should probably limit your standard to jumping.

#3. Sometimes we laud players for athleticism when their physical gifts are obvious but their basketball skills are undeveloped or maybe never develop. I am thinking of great defenders like Dahntay Jones. That is certainly a workable definition.

While I doubt that we restart "Superstars" to grade hoops players, I suspect that the very best players are truly great athletes -- they just make it look easy. I am thinking of Kyrie, who looks small and not particularly strong, but I suspect he is very strong for his size. And I would bet Kyrie is fast as well as quick. And while Lebron's physical gifts are obviously enough to shame Adonis, I suspect that MJ and Kobe would grade out very high in basic ahtletic ability.

And speed and strength are highly correlated. Or, at least, fast folks are typically very strong. As a fer instance, the guy in my HS league who won states three years in a row in the 100 -- he was later a Duke football player -- also won the shot put.

sagegrouse

[plimnko]

i don't know where jabari parker stacks up with all the other athletic people who have played basketball. larry bird was slow and couldn't jump, but he was one hell of a basketball player. i'm not saying parker is bird, but from what i've seen.....i sure am glad to see him in a duke uniform. i look forward to watching him develop his game and i'm sure i'll be awed by his talents if not his athleticism in the next year and beyond.

[flyingdutchdevil]

i don't know where jabari parker stacks up with all the other athletic people who have played basketball. larry bird was slow and couldn't jump, but he was one hell of a basketball player. i'm not saying parker is bird, but from what i've seen.....i sure am glad to see him in a duke uniform. i look forward to watching him develop his game and i'm sure i'll be awed by his talents if not his athleticism in the next year and beyond.

I think it's very difficult to judge an "athletic" player until he plays on the college level. I remember watching HS highlights tapes of Jon Scheyer thinking that he was incredibly athletic (and in comparison to his HS peers, he definitely was). However, in comparison to most college kids, Jon isn't very athletic. It's all relative, but I feel college ball gives a good representation.

I think Jabari is much more athletic than he looks (again, just like Melo). But we'll find out soon enough.

[Kedsy]

And speed and strength are highly correlated.

I don't think I agree with this. Lots of fast people are not particularly strong. And LOTS of strong people are not particularly fast.

Obviously some people exhibit both attributes, but I'd say the correlation is far from high.

[Henderson]

If we are going gaga over "athleticism," we should probably agree on a definition. Or, better, "agree to disagree."


The term "athleticism" is just a word, a symbol, a shorthand for other things the person using the term is trying to convey. So I don't think there is an objective definition of the term without reference to what the speaker is talking about.

I would argue that what people are talking about then they use the term is sport-specific. So when people talk about athleticism in basketball (as in, "X team is very athletic"), I think they are talking about speed up and down the court, stamina to keep that going, lateral quickness, and leaping ability. When people talked about past Duke teams as being relatively unathletic, I think they were using those markers, not some universal definition of athleticism.

For example, Usain Bolt has tremendous athleticism, but nobody cares about his lateral quickness or jumping ability. Michael Phelps was a great athlete, but his skills (except for aerobic capacity) had little to do with what sort of athleticism would be useful on a basketball court.

And, of course, athleticism is not the be-all end-all of success on the basketball court. It's definitely an advantage, but things like size, basketball IQ, anticipation of game flow, shooting accuracy, leadership, will power, and communication skills can make a relatively "unathletic" player a great basketball player. Just calling a player "unathletic", therefore, is not necessarily a statement that he's not a great basketball player. Similarly, there are great athletes in basketball who don't succeed.

[JohnGalt]

#3. Sometimes we laud players for athleticism when their physical gifts are obvious but their basketball skills are undeveloped or maybe never develop. I am thinking of great defenders like Dahntay Jones. That is certainly a workable definition.
sagegrouse

I know the Bulls just waived him but Dahntay could spend his 10th straight season in the NBA if he finds a home this year.

He must possess some semblance of a basketball skill or two...

[Indoor66]

Great post. I agree with most of this. I say sneaky athleticism because he's clearly more athletic than people give him credit for. People have been giving Wiggins the 5 treatment, and at a similar height, he is more athletic than Parker, I think that's why people have been underestimating Jabari.

Still doesn't answer my question :D Who is more athletic... Parker or Hood? (or Winslow... you can ignore this option but I felt the need to put it in there after looking at the thread topic :D)

Isn't this entire debate getting down to splitting extremely fine hairs? Each of these guys has extreme athleticism and each has greater levels in one area over another but the difference is, effectively, meaningless in the course of a game. (Just my view - not denigrating any one position.)

[flyingdutchdevil]

I don't think I agree with this. Lots of fast people are not particularly strong. And LOTS of strong people are not particularly fast.

Obviously some people exhibit both attributes, but I'd say the correlation is far from high.

Wait - aren't they negatively correlated, for the most part. If you build mass, you are heavier and hence more likely to be slower. I look at football as the primary justification.

Also, even if there are exceptions, any relationship can be highly correlated. That's statistics 101

[Henderson]

Wait - aren't they negatively correlated, for the most part. If you build mass, you are heavier and hence more likely to be slower. I look at football as the primary justification.


Two words: Ben Johnson

That guy was juiced, ripped, muscular, and fast. And he juiced to add muscle mass to make him faster. It worked.

Extra weight is a drag on speed only if the extra weight isn't added in the right way for someone who wants to be fast. It all depends on how the athlete gains and uses that extra weight. Extra lower-body mass can make a person faster in shorter distances. How many world class male sprinters weigh 160 lbs.? Ever see the thighs on these athletes (both male and female)? They wouldn't be that fast without the weight. And I doubt you'll see a slower Amile Jefferson this year, although his weight is up. But (recognizing your point), Josh Hairston will likely be faster because his weight is down.

Clearly unproductive weight slows people down. I don't think the correlations work in any meaningful way without knowing the sport and the athlete.

[BD80]

I don't think I agree with this. ... LOTS of strong people are not particularly fast. ...

If I could catch you, you'd rue those words ...

[sagegrouse]

Wait - aren't they negatively correlated, for the most part. If you build mass, you are heavier and hence more likely to be slower. I look at football as the primary justification.

Also, even if there are exceptions, any relationship can be highly correlated. That's statistics 101

The training for sprinters is designed to build strength and muscle tone in the torso as well as in the legs. Yuo run with those muscles as well.

You are right that a person strong as an ox is not necessarily any faster than one.

sagegrouse

[flyingdutchdevil]

Watch Semi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viB6rGUhEIM

Insane!!!!

[ChillinDuke]

Watch Semi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viB6rGUhEIM

Insane!!!!

Oh.

My.

God.

- Chillin

[FerryFor50]

Watch Semi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viB6rGUhEIM

Insane!!!!

So while that is cool and all, it just supports the theory that all athletic means is "can jump high."

There are athletic guys who don't jump well, which Duke has had on occasion. I think to play successful basketball at a D1 level, you have to be athletic to some degree.

[Henderson]

Watch Semi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viB6rGUhEIM

Insane!!!!

By any definition, that's athletic. Many cinder blocks. And what about that pass from Tyler from just over half court?

So, to try to get this thread back on track, how's the athleticism of our 2014 signee (Grayson) and the prospects? I've only seen videos (mostly highlights, which can be pretty misleading overall). All of them appear to be great basketball players, but none seems to be an athletic freak.

[CDu]

So while that is cool and all, it just supports the theory that all athletic means is "can jump high."

There are athletic guys who don't jump well, which Duke has had on occasion. I think to play successful basketball at a D1 level, you have to be athletic to some degree.

Agreed. Irving was extremely quick, fairly strong, and incredibly coordinated. He was not an outstanding leaper. But I'd absolutely classify him as athletic. Moreso than Henderson who was not quick but could jump really high.

[NYBri]

Watch Semi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viB6rGUhEIM

Insane!!!!

Cannot WAIT for the season to start. Gonna see more than one of those this year.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Agreed. Irving was extremely quick, fairly strong, and incredibly coordinated. He was not an outstanding leaper. But I'd absolutely classify him as athletic. Moreso than Henderson who was not quick but could jump really high.

Hendo has the agility, the strength, and the leaping ability. While he didn't have the speed, I think he's one of the highest on the "Duke athletic scale". Kyrie has the agility and the speed, but lacks the leaping ability and the strength. He is also athletic, but, IMO, lower on the "Duke athletic scale" than Hendo.

It's super subjective. I honestly define athletic as the "wow factor," ie plays that make your jaw drop. The Kyrie absolutely has those, but they are on the ground vs in the air, which I think people often discount (myself included). Grant, Hendo, Corey, and Dahntay were insane in the air, and I think that is why many of us consider that athletic.

[timmy c]

Watch Semi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viB6rGUhEIM

Insane!!!!

I was memorized. Had to watch it several times... The pass from Thornton was on target from half court and semi just went up and throttled it thru the rim. WOW!

[tommy]

By any definition, that's athletic. Many cinder blocks. And what about that pass from Tyler from just over half court?

So, to try to get this thread back on track, how's the athleticism of our 2014 signee (Grayson) and the prospects? I've only seen videos (mostly highlights, which can be pretty misleading overall). All of them appear to be great basketball players, but none seems to be an athletic freak.
\

Lots of different ways folks are defining athleticism, which is fine of course. All I can tell you is that Grayson Allen has very good springs. He gets up in the air very well and can make plays up there.

[flyingdutchdevil]

\

Lots of different ways folks are defining athleticism, which is fine of course. All I can tell you is that Grayson Allen has very good springs. He gets up in the air very well and can make plays up there.

I think by any account, Grayson is definitely athletic. He has at least three of the four factors that I look for: speed, agility, and air control (don't think he's there yet with strength).

Do people get offended when players aren't called "athletic"? They shouldn't. Redick wasn't the most athletic, but you'd be hard pressed to find a player with a better combination of shooting, intelligence, passing, and defense.

Wow - JJ was really good.

[sagegrouse]

I think to play successful basketball at a D1 level, you have to be athletic to some degree.

I ran into Larry Bird a while ago and he said to say, "Hi!" Also, Kyle Singler sends his regards.

sagegrouse

[pfrduke]

I carved out the recent discussion on athleticism that sprung up in the 2014 Recruiting Thread in an attempt to keep that remotely on topic. Please keep further discussions of that topic here.

[mike88]

Is balance part of athleticism? Kyrie is off the scales there.

How about vision?

Endurance? I think of Shane Battier talking about performing so well on the "Superman drill" that involves repeatedly taking a ball from the floor and dunking it - IIRC he could do 70-80 reps, far more than many of his more "athletic" peers

[dcar1985]

By any definition, that's athletic. Many cinder blocks. And what about that pass from Tyler from just over half court?

So, to try to get this thread back on track, how's the athleticism of our 2014 signee (Grayson) and the prospects? I've only seen videos (mostly highlights, which can be pretty misleading overall). All of them appear to be great basketball players, but none seems to be an athletic freak.


I'd throw Grayson in that athletic freak category, kid can fly. Supposedly there's video somewhere but Grayson tweeted maybe a month or two ago about just dunking from the free throw line OFF TWO FEET...even if he was a step or two inside the line that's crazy athletic!

[FerryFor50]

I ran into Larry Bird a while ago and he said to say, "Hi!" Also, Kyle Singler sends his regards.

sagegrouse

I'd argue that they both were athletic to a degree. Coordination, muscle memory, etc... those can be added to the list of "athletic" traits.

[JNort]

I judge athleticism like this: Speed, Quickness, Jumping, Body Control, Wow factor

On our current team I would put them as follows from least athletic to most athletic:
Below Average:
Josh
Marshall
Tyler

Average:
Amile
Cook

Above Average:
Matt
Alex
Jabari
Rasheed

Great Athletes:
Andre
Rodney
Semi

Elite:
???

I was tempted to put Semi in the Elite category but I need to see more of him against higher level competition as I am unsure about his lateral quickness and his ability to accelerate. Marshall, Alex, Rodney, Matt and Jabari could also be moved after I have seen them play more against tougher opponents but I feel where they are is right for now IMO.

[sagegrouse]

I'd argue that they both were athletic to a degree. Coordination, muscle memory, etc... those can be added to the list of "athletic" traits.

Oh, I agree. Bird had fantastic coordination and was very close to the best player in the league. But not everybody agrees with us.

Singler is very strong strong, courageous to a fault**, and his brain appears to be wired for basketball. He can't jump a lick, but he will play in the league for a decade or more.


sagegrouse
** Anyone remember when Singler got clotheslined by wake's goon, Chas MacFarlane, under the Duke basket in CIS. He landed flat on his face and shoulder but then bounded up immediately; I mean, he was on the floor a few tenths of second. As a result, MacFarlane didn't even get a technical foul, which he richly deserved. C'mon, Kyle! Act hurt (which he was)!

[FerryFor50]

Oh, I agree. Bird had fantastic coordination and was very close to the best player in the league. But not everybody agrees with us.

Singler is very strong strong, courageous to a fault**, and his brain appears to be wired for basketball. He can't jump a lick, but he will play in the league for a decade or more.


sagegrouse
** Anyone remember when Singler got clotheslined by wake's goon, Chas MacFarlane, under the Duke basket in CIS. He landed flat on his face and shoulder but then bounded up immediately; I mean, he was on the floor a few tenths of second. As a result, MacFarlane didn't even get a technical foul, which he richly deserved. C'mon, Kyle! Act hurt (which he was)!

I'm impressed he survived the Matt Howard illegal screen in the Butler game. More impressed that he bounced up and was able to celebrate!

[kAzE]

By any definition, that's athletic. Many cinder blocks. And what about that pass from Tyler from just over half court?

So, to try to get this thread back on track, how's the athleticism of our 2014 signee (Grayson) and the prospects? I've only seen videos (mostly highlights, which can be pretty misleading overall). All of them appear to be great basketball players, but none seems to be an athletic freak.

No offense to Tyler, but that was a TERRIBLE pass!! Come on, look at where it was going, it was at least 3 feet away from the basket and sailing left! There was absolutely nobody else on the team that could have made that play other than Semi, and he made a SPECTACULAR play. He had to reach backwards full extension while at the height of his jump with his right arm just to be able to get it. The best alley-oop dunks are created from bad passes. A good pass will result in a fairly routine dunk. Because of the awkward location of the ball, Semi's dunk was a one handed, cocked back, full extension tomahawk slam. Glorious.

[burns15]

I really don't understand the perception that Jabari is not athletic. Skitzle, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I just don't understand why he's perceived that way. Alright, he's not Lebron . . . but seriously, he can't even be measured on that scale of 1-5. There's never been ANYONE like Lebron with that combination of size, strength, speed, quickness, leaping ability, and obviously, skill. He's on a totally different level.

But Jabari is 6-8, 240, and he looked pretty athletic to me from the CTC game. He was pretty fast on a couple of fast breaks (especially for a 240 pounder), such as that early coast to coast layup with a sick hesitation dribble in the lane, and looked pretty quick, and showed a pretty nice standing jump on that baseline spin and dunk over Hairston. He's also got impressive wingspan.

We all get that he's not Andrew Wiggins physically, but why does he have to be "sneaky" athletic? I think he's just pretty damn athletic, period. You have to keep in mind that he was dealing with a major injury all last year, and the ramifications of that injury, which include not playing at 100%, and the bad weight that he gained while rehabbing. In fact, he's still not in top physical condition yet, and I expect that to improve throughout the year. On that scale of 1-5, I'd probably put him at 4.5 . . . you have to consider how big he is. He is a very, very large kid.

Also, I dunno about DeMarcus as a 5. I think the only real 5's that come immediately to mind for me are Grant Hill, Dahntay Jones, and Gerald Henderson. Semi looks like a 5 as well. Nelson was exceptionally strong, but not so great in terms of leaping or quickness. He's a 4. Same for Mason, great leaper, good speed for a 6'10" guy, but very average quickness. Kyrie is a 5 for me . . he's about one of the quickest guards I've ever seen and his strength is unreal. People really underrate how strong Kyrie is. The reason he's one of the best finishers around the rim, even after taking contact, is because of his superb upper and lower body strength.

As far as 5s on the athletic scale, Corey Magette and Jason Williams say hi. I would without question include those in the 5 category. Magette, arguably, is the most physically gifted player in the K era, IMO.

[sagegrouse]

Markie's Draft Combine Stats

W/o shoes 6' 1"
With shoes 6' 2.25"
Wgt. 196
Wing 6' 10"
Reach 8' 2.5"
St. Jump-1 34.5
Max. Jump 38.5

FWIW his standing jump would have been second in this year's combine.
Markie had some sort of spine issue that made shorter; for example, consider his reach is 6-10 vs. height without shoes of 6-1.

sagegrouse

[uh_no]

Markie's Draft Combine Stats

W/o shoes 6' 1"
With shoes 6' 2.25"
Wgt. 196
Wing 6' 10"
Reach 8' 2.5"
St. Jump-1 34.5
Max. Jump 38.5

FWIW his standing jump would have been second in this year's combine.
Markie had some sort of spine issue that made shorter; for example, consider his reach is 6-10 vs. height without shoes of 6-1.

sagegrouse

I won't believe it until I see a picture from an odd angle with parallax issues and a pile of cinder blocks on the side for scale