More reason to hate Calipari

[BD80]

Izzo and calipari starting the smack talk:

http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/10/09/john-calipari-and-tom-izzo-are-already-in-mid-season-trash-talking-form/?sct=uk_bf1_a4

Izzo starts it:

“We are working to kick Kentucky’s .” Izzo yelled those words at the Spartans’ Midnight Madness Event on September 27.

And of course calipari returns fire with an extra helping of smarminess (darn filter won't accept my first several attempts to convey my feelings):

... teams don’t just want to beat Kentucky for sheer competitive purposes. “It’s not just Kentucky they want to beat, it’s you, [B]because you got the scholarship offer they wanted.”

Calipari followed up Monday at Kentucky’s tipoff luncheon. Ask Wildcats players when any one of their marquee games – including the three Calipari mentions: Florida, North Carolina and Louisville – are scheduled, and they won’t know, according to Calipari. Michigan State players, meanwhile, have their game against Kentucky circled on the calendar

Let's see ... EVERY player wants to beat Kentucky because EVERY player is jealous that they didn't get a scholarship offer from Kentucky. Right.

And Kentucky players don't know their second game is in Chicago against Michigan State. Right.

[jipops]

Emmanuel Mudiay certainly doesn't feel this way.

[NSDukeFan]

Izzo and calipari starting the smack talk:

And Kentucky players don't know their second game is in Chicago against Michigan State. Right.

So, is Calipari saying his players are not that interested in basketball, or just aren't that bright to know they are playing one of the top programs in the country? Either way, I hope it is because Calipari is so concerned with his players' education and they are studying all the time and focused on their academics.

[coldriver10]

[I]... teams don’t just want to beat Kentucky for sheer competitive purposes. “It’s not just Kentucky they want to beat, it’s you, because you got the scholarship offer they wanted.”

Let's see ... EVERY player wants to beat Kentucky because EVERY player is jealous that they didn't get a scholarship offer from Kentucky. Right.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I took his quote to mean Izzo/Mich St, in addition to wanting to win, wants to beat Calipari specifically because he landed the player (the scholarship) he/they wanted to get. Not that that interpretation makes him any less of a jerk.

[MarkD83]

The Ky players are just waiting to play dodge ball in January when their coach does not know how to motivate them.

[Henderson]

Izzo and calipari starting the smack talk:

http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/10/09/john-calipari-and-tom-izzo-are-already-in-mid-season-trash-talking-form/?sct=uk_bf1_a4


Two thoughts:

1. As much as I hate Sleazipari (Oh, let me count the ways), every coach needs to push the buttons he thinks will work with his team and the fan base.

2. I'm growing to like Tom Izzo more and more.

[uh_no]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I took his quote to mean Izzo/Mich St, in addition to wanting to win, wants to beat Calipari specifically because he landed the player (the scholarship) he/they wanted to get. Not that that interpretation makes him any less of a jerk.

nah, he's referring to the players on MSU being bitter because they didn't get a UK scholly offer

[brevity]

[I]... teams don’t just want to beat Kentucky for sheer competitive purposes. “It’s not just Kentucky they want to beat, it’s you, because you got the scholarship offer they wanted.”

Great coachspeak (not necessarily from great coaches) is a sports tradition. It diverts from the truth in order to motivate. This is just an example.

As hinted in the replies, Kentucky players are hated because they TOOK the scholarship from Kentucky instead of elsewhere. And it's not even a Duke thing. I'm sure many of us would rather see some of these blue-chip recruits at Michigan State, scary as that might make Tom Izzo's squads.

[greybeard]

This was not one of Izzo's best moments. In fact, you have to admit that what he said was what you'd expect from a freshman cheerleader, not from the head coach of top program. Really, can you imagine K saying something like that?

As for Calipari, I find his program and candor about it quite refreshing. This one-and-done rule serves to hurt the interests of star high school/prep players who otherwise would be going straight to the pros. He provides a place where they can not only showcase their skills but also hone them to fit more nearly the NBA game. He makes no apologies for that. In fact, he thinks that what he is doing is laudable. So do I.

As for Calipari's statement, I take it as a shot across the bow: "Tommyboy, you really don't want to have to play us now, I mean you really don't want to have to play us; see, now it's personal."

Silly stuff, but I think that Calipari got the better of it.

[Acymetric]

Great coachspeak (not necessarily from great coaches) is a sports tradition. It diverts from the truth in order to motivate. This is just an example.

As hinted in the replies, Kentucky players are hated because they TOOK the scholarship from Kentucky instead of elsewhere. And it's not even a Duke thing. I'm sure many of us would rather see some of these blue-chip recruits at Michigan State, scary as that might make Tom Izzo's squads.

No, he is saying the Michigan State players (and presumably all other players) hate the Kentucky players because the Michigan State players wanted to go to Kentucky but didn't get the scholarship offer from Cal. Awfully presumptuous I'd say.

[brevity]

Great coachspeak (not necessarily from great coaches) is a sports tradition. It diverts from the truth in order to motivate. This is just an example.

As hinted in the replies, Kentucky players are hated because they TOOK the scholarship from Kentucky instead of elsewhere. And it's not even a Duke thing. I'm sure many of us would rather see some of these blue-chip recruits at Michigan State, scary as that might make Tom Izzo's squads.


No, he is saying the Michigan State players (and presumably all other players) hate the Kentucky players because the Michigan State players wanted to go to Kentucky but didn't get the scholarship offer from Cal. Awfully presumptuous I'd say.

I know what he is saying. He's creating a myth that Kentucky is a golden destination for the most elite players (who lack the courage and imagination to win a title without resorting to some form of dream team). I was moving beyond that to explain that he was promoting this myth in order to mask the real truth: that Kentucky players have a target on their backs because they opted to sell out and join his mercenary program.

Also, while I am not a big fan of John Calipari, I appreciate him more than most people on this board. And I will rush to the front of the line to acknowledge that he works very hard to preserve his, um, unique set of principles. Maybe not an evil genius, but certainly an adversarial one.

[OldPhiKap]

Tom took a shot at Kentucky, John shot back. Trash talk begets trash talk.

[chaosmage]

Calipari was obviously pumping his home crowd, but the sentence he used was so blasted ridiculous it bears repeating.

"We don't just play college basketball, we are college basketball. As you know, we are everyone's Super Bowl."

Wow. I have many things to say to this, but that's some high-end arrogance right there, imho. One NC, one NIT trip, and one E8 (iirc?) trip, and now they're "The Super Bowl."

Hyperbole is one thing, but this must be an alternate reality.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9846582/kentucky-wildcats-john-calipari-optimistic-big-blue-madness

[uh_no]

Calipari was obviously pumping his home crowd, but the sentence he used was so blasted ridiculous it bears repeating.

"We don't just play college basketball, we are college basketball. As you know, we are everyone's Super Bowl."

Wow. I have many things to say to this, but that's some high-end arrogance right there, imho. One NC, one NIT trip, and one E8 (iirc?) trip, and now they're "The Super Bowl."

Hyperbole is one thing, but this must be an alternate reality.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9846582/kentucky-wildcats-john-calipari-optimistic-big-blue-madness

they went to the final 4 and lost to uconn

[tallguy]

Calipari was obviously pumping his home crowd, but the sentence he used was so blasted ridiculous it bears repeating.

"We don't just play college basketball, we are college basketball. As you know, we are everyone's Super Bowl."

Wow. I have many things to say to this, but that's some high-end arrogance right there, imho. One NC, one NIT trip, and one E8 (iirc?) trip, and now they're "The Super Bowl."

Hyperbole is one thing, but this must be an alternate reality.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9846582/kentucky-wildcats-john-calipari-optimistic-big-blue-madness


Let's not forget...Cal as much as said DUKE was Kentucky's Super Bowl.


Do you know how badly we wanted to play Duke? I think that's why we played so badly against West Virginia. We wanted Duke so badly we couldn't see straight. (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2010/09/john-calipari-duke-a-factor-in-kentuckys-loss-to-wvu-in-ncaa-tournament/1#.UmQawVCkolQ)

[Billy Dat]

Calipari was obviously pumping his home crowd, but the sentence he used was so blasted ridiculous it bears repeating.

"We don't just play college basketball, we are college basketball. As you know, we are everyone's Super Bowl."

Wow. I have many things to say to this, but that's some high-end arrogance right there, imho. One NC, one NIT trip, and one E8 (iirc?) trip, and now they're "The Super Bowl."

Hyperbole is one thing, but this must be an alternate reality.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9846582/kentucky-wildcats-john-calipari-optimistic-big-blue-madness

I see this as pandering to his fan base, plain and simple. He knows what they want to hear. Big Blue Nation is a ravenous beast that needs to be fed this kind of rhetoric early and often.

[brevity]

"We don't just play college basketball, we are college basketball. As you know, we are everyone's Super Bowl."

Okay, there's coachspeak, and then there's vested interest. Maybe Calipari just wants the TV advertising rates for Kentucky games to up into the millions because he gets a cut of that revenue?

Still, he's brilliant. He just outsmarted most of us. People are focusing on the Super Bowl line instead of the real part of that statement: "we are college basketball." It's both obnoxious and true. Nowhere is the state of one-and-done college basketball more apparent than in Kentucky. Like it or not, they are college basketball as it exists now.

[Henderson]

People are focusing on the Super Bowl line instead of the real part of that statement: "we are college basketball." It's both obnoxious and true. Nowhere is the state of one-and-done college basketball more apparent than in Kentucky. Like it or not, they are college basketball as it exists now.

I respectfully disagree. Cal has a model. It worked one time. It failed miserably more than once. Time will tell how significant his model was. But "as it exists right now" it's a mixed bag, and nowhere near worth the statement, "We are college basketball." His team this year may be great, it may be good, or it may fall on its face as in past years. Sounds more like a recruiting line than an expression of reality. I'd write it off as hubris, but coming from Cal (given his track record), it seems delusional. When he's been at one school without forfeiting games or championships and has 900 wins, let's talk about whether his team "[is] college basketball."

You'd never hear K say something like that.

[freshmanjs]

I respectfully disagree. Cal has a model. It worked one time. It failed miserably more than once. Time will tell how significant his model was. But "as it exists right now" it's a mixed bag, and nowhere near worth the statement, "We are college basketball." His team this year may be great, it may be good, or it may fall on its face as in past years. Sounds more like a recruiting line than an expression of reality. I'd write it off as hubris, but coming from Cal (given his track record), it seems delusional. When he's been at one school without forfeiting games or championships and has 900 wins, let's talk about whether his team "[is] college basketball."

You'd never hear K say something like that.

in his 4 years at KY, he has 2 final 4 appearances (with a championship) and an elite 8. he made the elite 8 or better in 3 of his last 4 years at memphis. that is all pretty damn good.

i'm all for any criticism of his arrogance, but the argument that his model doesn't work just does not hold water for me at all. he's been outstanding.

[cspan37421]

He's a great recruiter. There are ways to do that, legit and otherwise.

Given the talent he collects every year, is he a great coach as far as other-than-recruiting? I'm not so sure. It's hard to disentangle his contribution from that of the talent he has amassed (and with which he reloads annually).

[Henderson]

in his 4 years at KY, he has 2 final 4 appearances (with a championship) and an elite 8. he made the elite 8 or better in 3 of his last 4 years at memphis. that is all pretty damn good.

i'm all for any criticism of his arrogance, but the argument that his model doesn't work just does not hold water for me at all. he's been outstanding.

So Kentucky IS College Basketball after all? I can't agree with that.

[Bob Green]

Given the talent he collects every year, is he a great coach as far as other-than-recruiting? I'm not so sure. It's hard to disentangle his contribution from that of the talent he has amassed (and with which he reloads annually).

John Calipari is a very good coach. He puts teams on the floor who know how to play defense. Perhaps he is a sleezeball, I don't know if he is or isn't, but he teaches his players the game of basketball. Would I send one of my grandsons to play ball for him? No, I would not. And I guess that is the most important comment I can make.

[freshmanjs]

So Kentucky IS College Basketball after all?

no, like i said...i'm all for criticism of his arrogance. i'm just saying that i don't see a case that his model isn't working.

[Edouble]

no, like i said...i'm all for criticism of his arrogance. i'm just saying that i don't see a case that his model isn't working.

Last season?

Compare Duke's season losing Irving, to UK's season losing Noel.

[freshmanjs]

Last season?

Compare Duke's season losing Irving, to UK's season losing Noel.

sorry, i'm not following. did i say Kentucky was better than Duke? Cal has had 6 great seasons out of the past 8. that is pretty good. clearly, ky had a bad season last year. did i say something you disagree with?

[wilko]

sorry, i'm not following. did i say Kentucky was better than Duke? Cal has had 6 great seasons out of the past 8. that is pretty good. clearly, ky had a bad season last year. did i say something you disagree with?

Anything that hinted, alluded, inferred or otherwise stated that there was something redeemable in any shape way form or fashion about Cals UK teams. This aint the audience for that message. It doesn't work here.

You dont need a reason to hate Cal.
I think of UK ever plays in Cameron we should invite John Chaney and sit him right behind the UK bench.

[freshmanjs]

Anything that hinted, alluded, inferred or otherwise stated that there was something redeemable in any shape way form or fashion about Cals UK teams. This aint the audience for that message. It doesn't work here.

redeemable? no. successful at winning, yes.

that's kind of my whole point. when people try to shift the criticism from "cal does things the wrong way and is a bad guy" to "his model does not work" it loses strength because the facts don't back it up. one bad season doesn't invalidate Cal's model anymore than it does Tom Izzo's or Roy's or any other coach who has had a bad year recently (which is all of them except a couple like K and Self).

[OldPhiKap]

I think of UK ever plays in Cameron we should invite John Chaney and sit him right behind the UK bench.

That is simply brilliant.

Now, I hope Izzo does not respond -- just whips the Cats when they play.

[wilko]

redeemable? no. successful at winning, yes.

that's kind of my whole point. when people try to shift the criticism from "cal does things the wrong way and is a bad guy" to "his model does not work" it loses strength because the facts don't back it up. one bad season doesn't invalidate Cal's model anymore than it does Tom Izzo's or Roy's or any other coach who has had a bad year recently (which is all of them except a couple like K and Self).

Forgive me - but it sounds like what you are saying is "The ends justifies the means".

Let me posit it this way... If Cal's alleged practices were the norm for EVERY coach and every school (I'm prolly making a big assumption in that they ARENT already) Is Cal so great a coach that he could compete against himself with the same results? The talent pool would be greatly diminished as other schools have "found" ways to make themselves attractive to prospects.

I have a feeling that whatever his coaching legacy may happen to be, when he is done, he will have a "steroids type astrix" and his alleged practices will always overshadow his achievements.

[Ichabod Drain]

Forgive me - but it sounds like what you are saying is "The ends justifies the means".

Let me posit it this way... If Cal's alleged practices were the norm for EVERY coach and every school (I'm prolly making a big assumption in that they ARENT already) Is Cal so great a coach that he could compete against himself with the same results? The talent pool would be greatly diminished as other schools have "found" ways to make themselves attractive to prospects.

I have a feeling that whatever his coaching legacy may happen to be, when he is done, he will have a "steroids type astrix" and his alleged practices will always overshadow his achievements.

Could you elaborate on these alleged practices?

[freshmanjs]

Forgive me - but it sounds like what you are saying is "The ends justifies the means".

Let me posit it this way... If Cal's alleged practices were the norm for EVERY coach and every school (I'm prolly making a big assumption in that they ARENT already) Is Cal so great a coach that he could compete against himself with the same results? The talent pool would be greatly diminished as other schools have "found" ways to make themselves attractive to prospects.

I have a feeling that whatever his coaching legacy may happen to be, when he is done, he will have a "steroids type astrix" and his alleged practices will always overshadow his achievements.

no, i don't think the ends justify the means. what i'm saying is that criticism is best focused on the means (which I agree are wrong). saying he's been unsuccessful at reaching the ends just rings hollow to me based on facts, that's all. i am not indicating any kind of moral support for Cal.

[wilko]

Could you elaborate on these alleged practices?.

The ones that made John Chaney want to cause him bodily harm.
The ones that made messes at UMass
The ones that made messes at Memphis

As to Specifics - I'm not close enuff to the source know the actual truth. (If you are THAT guy - pls enlighten me)
But I can see the patterns. Where there is smoke there is usually fire.

You hear of guys who get struck by lightning multiple times an live, but they are very rare. I suppose its possible, but I find it unlikely that he was just that innocent and unlucky.

[FerryFor50]

John Calipari is a very good coach. He puts teams on the floor who know how to play defense. Perhaps he is a sleezeball, I don't know if he is or isn't, but he teaches his players the game of basketball. Would I send one of my grandsons to play ball for him? No, I would not. And I guess that is the most important comment I can make.

I disagree that he's a very good coach. He's a very good recruiter, but if he were a good coach, he wouldn't have been so god awful with the Celtics and would have had a much better year last year, rather than pinning the blame on his players and running a few of them out on a rail.

He doesn't keep most of his guys around long enough to teach them much of anything.

[freshmanjs]

I disagree that he's a very good coach. He's a very good recruiter, but if he were a good coach, he wouldn't have been so god awful with the Celtics and would have had a much better year last year, rather than pinning the blame on his players and running a few of them out on a rail.

He doesn't keep most of his guys around long enough to teach them much of anything.

cal never coached the celtics.

i don't think lack of nba success is an accurate indicator of college coaching ability. leonard hamilton is a good college coach IMO...had no NBA success. pitino as well. montgomery as well.

[FerryFor50]

cal never coached the celtics.

i don't think lack of nba success is an accurate indicator of college coaching ability. leonard hamilton is a good college coach IMO...had no NBA success. pitino as well. montgomery as well.

Oh yeah. That was Pitino. Cal was the Nets.

Still, I don't think Cal is a very good coach. :)

[wilko]

no, i don't think the ends justify the means. what i'm saying is that criticism is best focused on the means (which I agree are wrong). saying he's been unsuccessful at reaching the ends just rings hollow to me based on facts, that's all. i am not indicating any kind of moral support for Cal.

If I understand your point correctly -
I have trouble separating the key issues in what you are saying.
They are inextricably linked in my mind. The greatest Coach in the world is only as good as his talent to execute.

In college, sure, lets pretend those violations didn't happen and look at the whole of what hes done in college. OK hes had success. I cant deny that fact. However, <insert alleged practices> recruiting better players allows him more room for error.

If he was so wonderfully fantastic as a coach doing x's and o's on the clip board - I have to ask; how come his record with the Nets wasn't better?

Sure a lot of coaches are not made for the pros. The have difficulty making the leap. Look at Lowe - not every guy with Pro coaching experience translates well in college. But if you are going to call Call a "winner" and try to laud his success the you cant discount this portion of the big picture.

I'd be a righteous, wonderful dude if you ignored all my faults and shortcomings and just looked at the good.. :-)

[Ichabod Drain]

.

The ones that made John Chaney want to cause him bodily harm.
The ones that made messes at UMass
The ones that made messes at Memphis

As to Specifics - I'm not close enuff to the source know the actual truth. (If you are THAT guy - pls enlighten me)
But I can see the patterns. Where there is smoke there is usually fire.

You hear of guys who get struck by lightning multiple times an live, but they are very rare. I suppose its possible, but I find it unlikely that he was just that innocent and unlucky.

I just don't see it at Kentucky. He's created a system there that these high school seniors want to be a part of. It's a stopover to the NBA, and a pretty nice one at that. Nothing has came out to think otherwise since he got to Kentucky except a brief 1/2 day rumor about Davis that was quickly squashed.

I hear duke haters bash us all the time with rumors that aren't substantiated, I'd prefer not to do it to other programs.

[freshmanjs]

If I understand your point correctly -
I have trouble separating the key issues in what you are saying.
They are inextricably linked in my mind. The greatest Coach in the world is only as good as his talent to execute.

In college, sure, lets pretend those violations didn't happen and look at the whole of what hes done in college. OK hes had success. I cant deny that fact. However, <insert alleged practices> recruiting better players allows him more room for error.

If he was so wonderfully fantastic as a coach doing x's and o's on the clip board - I have to ask; how come his record with the Nets wasn't better?

Sure a lot of coaches are not made for the pros. The have difficulty making the leap. Look at Lowe - not every guy with Pro coaching experience translates well in college. But if you are going to call Call a "winner" and try to laud his success the you cant discount this portion of the big picture.

I'd be a righteous, wonderful dude if you ignored all my faults and shortcomings and just looked at the good.. :-)


i agree that it's difficult to separate or independently evaluate a college coach's X's and O's skills vs. recruiting skills. I do think that getting a team full of freshmen (regardless of how talented) to play well enough to win a NC is difficult and impressive. most of his good teams do play defense, play together, and play an entertaining style. do you see clear deficiencies in his X and O coaching at the college level? (again, I don't buy the NBA argument because there are several clearly good college coaches who did not succeed in the NBA). and again, i am not saying i like Cal or think he's a good guy or good for college basketball or that the ends justify the means or any of that.

[Dev11]

I disagree that he's a very good coach. He's a very good recruiter, but if he were a good coach, he wouldn't have been so god awful with the Celtics and would have had a much better year last year, rather than pinning the blame on his players and running a few of them out on a rail.

He doesn't keep most of his guys around long enough to teach them much of anything.

Well, one or two bad years doesn't make a bad coach, particularly with his record. Perhaps the lack of team chemistry last year falls on his recruiting prowess. He recruited good pieces but maybe not ones that fit together. Duke had plenty of talent in years like 1995 and 2007 that didn't do that great during the season, but we still think K is fairly good at his job.

[Henderson]

saying he's been unsuccessful at reaching the ends just rings hollow to me based on facts, that's all.

Who ever said he hasn't been successful? I think we were talking about his comment, "We ARE college basketball."

It's a pretty big leap from the "success" he's had in his career (UMass--final 4 appearance vacated, Nets--terrible, Memphis--season vacated, KY) to claiming that his team IS college basketball.

So who here among us agrees with Cal that Kentucky IS college basketball?

[freshmanjs]

Who ever said he hasn't been successful? I think we were talking about his comment, "We ARE college basketball."

It's a pretty big leap from the "success" he's had in his career (UMass--final 4 appearance vacated, Nets--terrible, Memphis--season vacated, KY) to claiming that his team IS college basketball.

So who here among us agrees with Cal that Kentucky IS college basketball?

you made comments that seemed to be suggesting he hasn't been successful. particularly, this one


I respectfully disagree. Cal has a model. It worked one time. It failed miserably more than once. Time will tell how significant his model was. But "as it exists right now" it's a mixed bag,

[chaosmage]

Simply the fact that I felt he was being disrespectful; There are a great many programs that have a much better history and quality to them. I figure, in retrospect to my comment, it was more of just "playing to the crowd" But it just rubbed me raw.

Here's a guy who has had vacated appearances in the tournaments, shady stuff following him, and he has the gall to get up and say "We are the best example to the world of college basketball." I'm paraphrasing, but that's how I read it.

Agree or disagree, it's fine. I just, having grown up around the best program, what most consider to be a decent program, and then the Carolina program, felt that there are far better examples of what he's claiming he is.

I do think that, sadly, his program is a reflection of the "one and done" part of college basketball, and that is the other reason it rubbed me the wrong way. It's not what it is supposed to be. Just my 2 cents.

[Edouble]

sorry, i'm not following. did i say Kentucky was better than Duke? Cal has had 6 great seasons out of the past 8. that is pretty good. clearly, ky had a bad season last year. did i say something you disagree with?

Last season says to me that it's a questionable model. You lose your star player and the season becomes a wash? That team had a lot of talent left! UK didn't have any veteran players to hold up the "we may be down but we're not out" mantle. I think they were all just like, "whatever, we'll be in the NBA in three months anyway".

[freshmanjs]

Last season says to me that it's a questionable model. You lose your star player and the season becomes a wash? That team had a lot of talent left! UK didn't have any veteran players to hold up the "we may be down but we're not out" mantle. I think they were all just like, "whatever, we'll be in the NBA in three months anyway".

does 2010 say that Roy's model is questionable? what do 07 and 08 say about boeheim's model? if the bar is that a coach has to have an excellent team every single year to be considered to have a good model, then there are only 2-3 coaches with good models around.

cal's performance over the last 8 years (which i think is roughly the period during which he's deployed his current model) has been near the very top of all coaches. is it the absolute best? probably not, but he's in the conversation.

[luvdahops]

does 2010 say that Roy's model is questionable? what do 07 and 08 say about boeheim's model? if the bar is that a coach has to have an excellent team every single year to be considered to have a good model, then there are only 2-3 coaches with good models around.

cal's performance over the last 8 years (which i think is roughly the period during which he's deployed his current model) has been near the very top of all coaches. is it the absolute best? probably not, but he's in the conversation.

That is fair. But I would also say that while Cal's teams have been - and will likely continue to be - among the game's best annually, the 2012 championship will likely prove to be an anomaly longer term. And not just because they are inherently very difficult to win. But also because that team featured freshman stars who, in addition to being supremely talented, were unusually mature, unselfish and committed to playing defense at a high level, as well as 3 veterans with NBA level talent in Lamb, Jones and Miller.

Remember early last season when fans and media were quick to draw immediate parallels between Noel and Davis, Poythress and MKG, etc., with some suggesting that last year's frosh might actually be better? Ha.`No doubt the incoming Kentucky class is extraordinarily talented, arguably the highest rated ever as a crew. But are they mature? Unselfish? Committed to playing defense at a high level? How well do their games complement each other's? Will they be willing to blend in and share time and spotlight with the returning players, who are not exactly chopped liver? We'll see.

[sagegrouse]

I would probably hate Calipari no matter what -- just competitive urges from Duke fan. But then there are the two vacated Final Fours. And then there was this comment after the 2009 NBA draft where IIRC four Wildcats were in the lottery, "This is the greatest day in Kentucky basketball history." Hey Cal, you lost in the regional finals, and Kentucky already had seven NCAA championships (now eight). Is this day better than those seven other days?

sagegrouse

[ChillinDuke]

What I'm most interested to see this year from this Kentucky team is are they able to play cohesive, team-oriented basketball or will games devolve in McDonald's AA games with little defense and one-on-one "spotlight" plays?

With that many premier freshmen, many of which are undoubtedly just waiting to head into the NBA Draft, IMO this is the stress test year for Cal's system. It may work with 3 or 4 premier players which isn't enough to field a team - but 8? And Poythress and the tall dude returning?

That is my Phase I, Phase II, Phase III, and Phase IV question #1-#10 for UK basketball this year.

- Chillin

[FerryFor50]

What I'm most interested to see this year from this Kentucky team is are they able to play cohesive, team-oriented basketball or will games devolve in McDonald's AA games with little defense and one-on-one "spotlight" plays?

With that many premier freshmen, many of which are undoubtedly just waiting to head into the NBA Draft, IMO this is the stress test year for Cal's system. It may work with 3 or 4 premier players which isn't enough to field a team - but 8? And Poythress and the tall dude returning?

That is my Phase I, Phase II, Phase III, and Phase IV question #1-#10 for UK basketball this year.

- Chillin

The problem with having that many potential lottery picks that don't really care that much about playing college ball is that they will try to impress scouts over other players. Hard to have cohesion when you have guys jockeying for draft position.

[flyingdutchdevil]

The problem with having that many potential lottery picks that don't really care that much about playing college ball is that they will try to impress scouts over other players. Hard to have cohesion when you have guys jockeying for draft position.

Ummmm... that didn't happen two years ago, and that team had 4 players go in the 1st round (including the top 2 picks). What made that team phenomenal was that each player bought into their roles. MKG was the perimeter defensive stalwart and ultimate glue guy, Davis was the interior defender and rebounder, Teague was the steady hand asked to distribute and not force shots, Lamb was the perimeter scorer, and Jones was the power power forward who could play his man one-on-one and succeed.

I don't like Calipari, but he did a great job getting his players to buy into their roles. That team was filled with top McD AAs, but they somehow put their 'NBA Recruiting Mix Tape' on hold and played as a unit.

Obviously, it didn't work last year. This year? I'm skeptical. But Calipari did a great job with that 2011-12 team.

[FerryFor50]

Ummmm... that didn't happen two years ago, and that team had 4 players go in the 1st round (including the top 2 picks). What made that team phenomenal was that each player bought into their roles. MKG was the perimeter defensive stalwart and ultimate glue guy, Davis was the interior defender and rebounder, Teague was the steady hand asked to distribute and not force shots, Lamb was the perimeter scorer, and Jones was the power power forward who could play his man one-on-one and succeed.

I don't like Calipari, but he did a great job getting his players to buy into their roles. That team was filled with top McD AAs, but they somehow put their 'NBA Recruiting Mix Tape' on hold and played as a unit.

Obviously, it didn't work last year. This year? I'm skeptical. But Calipari did a great job with that 2011-12 team.

I'm talking about this year, where I can see that happening. Two years ago may be the anomaly, not the norm. Davis is and was a team first guy, as was MKG. I don't see "team first" guys on this years team outside of perhaps Julius Randle. Too bad the twins will be handling the ball 90% of the time.

[sagegrouse]

I don't like Calipari, but he did a great job getting his players to buy into their roles. That team was filled with top McD AAs, but they somehow put their 'NBA Recruiting Mix Tape' on hold and played as a unit.

Obviously, it didn't work last year. This year? I'm skeptical. But Calipari did a great job with that 2011-12 team.

He did, but sometimes it is about one exceptional player that makes it all work. I gave a lot of credit to the Unibrow, Anthony Davis.

sagegrouse

[FerryFor50]

He did, but sometimes it is about one exceptional player that makes it all work. I gave a lot of credit to the Unibrow, Anthony Davis.

sagegrouse

Agreed. Davis was the guy that brought it home. MKG is proving to be more and more of a role player in the NBA (but a great defender), and Teague was a point guard, so he was expected to pass it at least some of the time.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm talking about this year, where I can see that happening. Two years ago may be the anomaly, not the norm. Davis is and was a team first guy, as was MKG. I don't see "team first" guys on this years team outside of perhaps Julius Randle. Too bad the twins will be handling the ball 90% of the time.

I agree with you - I don't see it much this year, but Calipari is really good at getting All-Stars to buy into a system. Check out these records:

2009-2010: 35-3 record, Elite Eight
2010-2011: 29-9 record, Final Four
2011-2012: 38-2 record, NCAA champions
2012-2013: 21-12 record, NIT (hehehehehe)

Based on this tiny sample size, it looks like cohesive teams - basing on results - is more of a norm than an anomaly.

Calpari is one of the rare coaches today who can a) recruit (obviously) and b) coach. He is a slime ball, but a slime ball with talent nonetheless.

[Henderson]

you made comments that seemed to be suggesting he hasn't been successful. particularly, this one

Which part of "mixed bag" did you not understand?

Success at KY over a short period: Yes and no. Mostly recently no, but otherwise yes.

Success at UMass: Lots of wins. Season forfeited.

Success at the Nets: No.

Success at Memphis: Lots of wins. Final Four appearance forfeited.

As a point guard at Clarion University? Do we even need to go there?

So Kentucky IS college basketball? People will be gunning for them, because they are No. 1. But that's true of every No. 1. Does that make that team college basketball? No.

[freshmanjs]

Which part of "mixed bag" did you not understand?

Success at KY over a short period: Yes and no. Mostly recently no, but otherwise yes.

Success at UMass: Lots of wins. Season forfeited.

Success at the Nets: No.

Success at Memphis: Lots of wins. Final Four appearance forfeited.

As a point guard at Clarion University? Do we even need to go there?

So Kentucky IS college basketball? People will be gunning for them, because they are No. 1. But that's true of every No. 1. Does that make that team college basketball? No.

i understood it. just disagree with it. he's been hugely successful at all of his college coaching gigs on the court (including an incredibly good run at KY over the last 4 years with 3 terrific seasons and 1 bad season). i have no idea why you are including clarion university here. i'm having trouble seeing how his play there reflects on the merits of his current one and done coaching model.

i have not been defending or in any other way commenting on the 'we are college basketball" quote.

[Billy Dat]

Would you guys be in favor of high school kids being allowed, once again, to go straight to the NBA, even though it will hurt Duke and there will be a big talent drop in college hoops, just for the possibility that it might crumble the Calipari system?

[Duvall]

Would you guys be in favor of high school kids being allowed, once again, to go straight to the NBA, even though it will hurt Duke and there will be a big talent drop in college hoops, just for the possibility that it might crumble the Calipari system?

I don't really care about crumbling the Calipari system, but I think high school kids should be allowed to go straight to the NBA because it's the right thing to do.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Would you guys be in favor of high school kids being allowed, once again, to go straight to the NBA, even though it will hurt Duke and there will be a big talent drop in college hoops, just for the possibility that it might crumble the Calipari system?

Yes. Calipari is a snake, and he relies on exceptional young talent to go far.

I would love to see a pre-2005 college basketball / football hybrid: you can go straight to the NBA, but if you stay, you need to stay 2 years.

But, the NBA is more powerful than college basketball, and letting kids play college ball allows the NBA to minimize their risk. Smart move on their end.

[wilko]

Would you guys be in favor of high school kids being allowed, once again, to go straight to the NBA, even though it will hurt Duke and there will be a big talent drop in college hoops, just for the possibility that it might crumble the Calipari system?

Yes.
It may be the ONLY way to deflate the play the player debate that seems so trendy at the moment.

I'd be fine if a young man that needed a check could get a check in the D-league.
I'd extend the amateurism concept to the D-league and allow a players that had never played in the NBA be recruited like juco players are currently. A guy is worthy of the hype out of the HS and can stand against grown men desperate to make a roster, good luck and good bless. He earns what he gets.

However.. a dude that got some bad advice, believed his ink too much, was too immature for the moment - whatever...

Lets give him a 2nd chance to get a degree and refine his skills and possibly improve his lot in life. Who can be mad at that!

CBS- might complain the product is diminished, but heck, it aint like Im not gonna watch if Duke is involved..

[NSDukeFan]

I don't really care about crumbling the Calipari system, but I think high school kids should be allowed to go straight to the NBA because it's the right thing to do.

I wish the NBDL was a better alternative for those that aren't good enough for the NBA, but have no interest in college.

[ChillinDuke]

Yes.
It may be the ONLY way to deflate the play the player debate that seems so trendy at the moment.

I'd be fine if a young man that needed a check could get a check in the D-league.
I'd extend the amateurism concept to the D-league and allow a players that had never played in the NBA be recruited like juco players are currently. A guy is worthy of the hype out of the HS and can stand against grown men desperate to make a roster, good luck and good bless. He earns what he gets.

However.. a dude that got some bad advice, believed his ink too much, was too immature for the moment - whatever...

Lets give him a 2nd chance to get a degree and refine his skills and possibly improve his lot in life. Who can be mad at that!

CBS- might complain the product is diminished, but heck, it aint like Im not gonna watch if Duke is involved..

But then, as an extreme example, you'd have 24 year old wash-ups who couldn't crack an NBA rotation for 5 years playing against kids fresh out of high school. If this hypothetical 24yo redshirted, you could have a 29 year old playing against an 18yo.

I won't completely dismiss your concept just yet. But at least given my example, it seems far-fetched.

ETA: Further, NBA teams aren't interested in giving guys a check that need a check. They are interested in giving guys a check that will make their organization money. And they would rather have as much information as possible in order to assess the likelihood and degree to which a player can make that organization money before writing a check. It's not about being considerate or about the right thing to do. It's business, plain and simple. There is too much variance in players straight out of high school for these large businesses to wager that big a gamble on these players. It's not like they don't want to pay them - they do. They just want to be sure who they are paying.

Back on topic: I hate to say it, I really do. But Calipari's system is pretty darn smart. He saw a change in the marketplace (NBA rule change) and he has exploited a need that was created because of it. I don't like what he's doing mainly because I don't like when rules aren't well thought out and allow for exploitation (exploitation in a negative context). But I don't write the rules, and what he's doing is legal by the letter of the law (if not the spirit, in my eyes). Frankly, it's similar to taxes. Regardless of your political affiliation, if you put your money in a foreign tax haven there's nothing illegal about that. It may not be the way people were meant to operate, but it's completely legal. If you don't like it, your beef is with the law. Same thing with Calipari, IMO. Smart man.

- Chillin

[Duvall]

Oh, Cal. Why must you troll so? And why do we always fall for it? (http://www.freep.com/article/20131108/SPORTS07/311080067/kentucky-basketball-john-calipari-michigan-state)


Kentucky coach John Calipari said it’s unfair for his freshman-oriented team to play veteran-laden Michigan State on Tuesday.

Meanwhile, he acknowledged that UK, which he’s made synonymous with star freshmen, might add to its schedule another early season event reportedly involving top opponents.

“The issue becomes playing teams (like Michigan State) this early is not fair for my team,” Calipari said Thursday. “It may be fair for everybody else. But it’s no fair for my team.”

[FerryFor50]

Oh, Cal. Why must you troll so? And why do we always fall for it? (http://www.freep.com/article/20131108/SPORTS07/311080067/kentucky-basketball-john-calipari-michigan-state)

Sigh. I really do not like that guy.

[Skitzle]

Sigh. I really do not like that guy.

Don't coaches set up the schedules? I mean Calipari must have had some say in JOINING the champions classic. Now he wishes he hadn't joined? Am I missing something? (You know outside of the fact that this complaining is ridiculous)

[FerryFor50]

Don't coaches set up the schedules? I mean Calipari must have had some say in JOINING the champions classic. Now he wishes he hadn't joined? Am I missing something? (You know outside of the fact that this complaining is ridiculous)

It's not fair that his hand picked crop of freshmen blue chip recruits have to play a team so much older than they are. They should only have to play other teams that start 5 top freshman prospects.

Wait, there aren't any?

Shoot. Then it's only fair to allow Kentucky to advance directly to the final four (not the NIT one, though).

[Henderson]

I hope he hands out diapers and pacifiers before Tuesday's game and puts up a big sign in his locker room that says, "It's just not fair."

[weezie]

I hope he hands out diapers and pacifiers before Tuesday's game and puts up a big sign in his locker room that says, "It's just not fair."

Cal's a riot! I cannot wait to see how this week develops. He's the booby prize that keeps on giving.

[arnie]

Oh, Cal. Why must you troll so? And why do we always fall for it? (http://www.freep.com/article/20131108/SPORTS07/311080067/kentucky-basketball-john-calipari-michigan-state)

I don't get it- why doesn't he just play his upperclassmen against MSU- that would be fair.

[dynastydefender]

Calm down and lets see how the season shapes up. Until then here is a movie you need to buy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHdf0fQXq44

Remember...UNC is the enemy!!

[NSDukeFan]

Oh, Cal. Why must you troll so? And why do we always fall for it? (http://www.freep.com/article/20131108/SPORTS07/311080067/kentucky-basketball-john-calipari-michigan-state)

I agree that Cal may be trolling. I don't like him or what he represents, but I do find him entertaining.

[moonpie23]

wa wa wa wahhhhhhhhhhh

Wambulance to Mister calimari, Wambulance to mister calimari!!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Hopefully the MSU fans will capitalize on this extraordinary opportunity.

[dynastydefender]

Hopefully the MSU fans will capitalize on this extraordinary opportunity.

Coach Cal has never gone into a season lauding his team. He has on many public occasions criticized his team as not being good enough for the ranking the rest of the country wants to label upon it. Please remember Cal's worst KY team was beat by a Seth Curry Duke team by 7 points on a neutral court. However, after watching the Blue and White scrimmage if this KY team gels early then they will be unstoppable. I have never said that about any KY team.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Coach Cal has never gone into a season lauding his team. He has on many public occasions criticized his team as not being good enough for the ranking the rest of the country wants to label upon it. Please remember Cal's worst KY team was beat by a Seth Curry Duke team by 7 points on a neutral court. However, after watching the Blue and White scrimmage if this KY team gels early then they will be unstoppable. I have never said that about any KY team.
What? First of all, my simple comment was I hope the MSU fans do a great job of using the material that Calamari just gifted to them. Second, I have no idea what your reference to humility is all about but in Cal's case there is nothing worse than false humility. It's insulting. And what does Duke beating Kentucky by 7 have to do with anything we are talking about here?

[dynastydefender]

What? First of all, my simple comment was I hope the MSU fans do a great job of using the material that Calamari just gifted to them. Second, I have no idea what your reference to humility is all about but in Cal's case there is nothing worse than false humility. It's insulting. And what does Duke beating Kentucky by 7 have to do with anything we are talking about here?

Dude. Like I said calm down and see how the season shapes up.

[Ichabod Drain]

Dude. Like I said calm down and see how the season shapes up.

Haha, C'Mon man....

This has nothing to do with how the team will shape up or teams in the past. It's simply the audacity for Cal to say it's not fair that his team to have to play teams like Mich St. If he doesn't like it why did the champions classic just get renewed for three more years?

He talks about wanting to go 40-0 but then complains about the schedule?

[77devil]

Coach Cal has never gone into a season lauding his team. He has on many public occasions criticized his team as not being good enough for the ranking the rest of the country wants to label upon it. Please remember Cal's worst KY team was beat by a Seth Curry Duke team by 7 points on a neutral court. However, after watching the Blue and White scrimmage if this KY team gels early then they will be unstoppable. I have never said that about any KY team.

Don't conflate criticism with whining. Cal scheduled the game and is responsible for the KY one and done recruiting model. He has no one to complain to but himself. He should man up and be quiet.

[BD80]

Izzo on John Calipari's "no fair" comment: "I agree, I think he should forfeit. If Johnny doesn't want to play it, I'll take a win."

http://network.yardbarker.com/college_basketball/article_external/tom_izzo_suggests_kentucky_should_forfeit_after_jo hn_calipari_says_game_is_unfair/15011000?linksrc=foxrg_college_basketball

[brevity]

Izzo on John Calipari's "no fair" comment: "I agree, I think he should forfeit. If Johnny doesn't want to play it, I'll take a win."

http://network.yardbarker.com/college_basketball/article_external/tom_izzo_suggests_kentucky_should_forfeit_after_jo hn_calipari_says_game_is_unfair/15011000?linksrc=foxrg_college_basketball

So THAT'S why the Kentucky-MSU game is the undercard Tuesday night. ESPN has a fear of the forfeit.

[Des Esseintes]

Did anyone catch his ESPN interview with Seth Greenberg? Favorite part was when he said he blamed himself in large part for last season. The reason? He held off on bringing in more recruited players because he was saving those spots for this year's class. So you see, fans, it's all part of a grand design...

[brevity]

Favorite part was when he said he blamed himself in large part for last season. The reason? He held off on bringing in more recruited players because he was saving those spots for this year's class.

So... Kentucky got out-recruited by Robert Morris? What a weird way to accept blame. And I wanna know who was on Calipari's wait list.

[BD80]

... And I wanna know who was on Calipari's wait list.

Everyone else. That's why everyone wants to beat UK.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Dude. Like I said calm down and see how the season shapes up.
There's no one here who is not calm. But if you're going to come over here and try to defend your coach, then go ahead and defend him with a well thought out argument - if that's possible for you to do without baiting and chastising. But don't come over here throwing around big words like 'humility' -- you know, glass houses and all. And speaking of humility, I would have thought maybe Cal or you KY fans would have discovered some given last year's results. But it is easier to make excuses, isn't it?

[Skitzle]

Everyone else. That's why everyone wants to beat UK.

Reminds me of this ever so fantastic onion article.
Yankees Ensure 2003 Pennant By Signing Every Player In Baseball (https://www.google.com.tr/search?q=yankees+sign+every+player+in+baseball&oq=yankees+sign+ever&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.5275j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8)

[jv001]

Calm down and lets see how the season shapes up. Until then here is a movie you need to buy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHdf0fQXq44

Remember...UNC is the enemy!!

Looking at your profile, you say you only root for Duke when they play unc. How would you feel about Cal is he was coaching Duke? Would you still give him the benefit of the doubt or would you comment negatively on his former jobs where games were forfeited. Be honest now, lol. GoDuke!

[FerryFor50]

Looking at your profile, you say you only root for Duke when they play unc. How would you feel about Cal is he was coaching Duke? Would you still give him the benefit of the doubt or would you comment negatively on his former jobs where games were forfeited. Be honest now, lol. GoDuke!

I'd have serious reservations about Duke if Cal ever started coaching here. I'd still root for the football team, the soccer team, lacrosse, golf, women's basketball... but I would not wish Cal success.

[Mike Corey]

I have nothing but sympathy for true Kentucky fans who recognize what a mockery Calipari has made of the Wildcats' program.

[jv001]

I have nothing but sympathy for true Kentucky fans who recognize what a mockery Calipari has made of the Wildcats' program.

Kentucky, minor league program/one and done for the NBA?