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BD80
09-27-2013, 05:07 PM
The bad Capel, Jason, having been tainted by his incarceration in chapel hell, is holding a recruit hostage:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/23873633/report-appalachian-state-wont-release-coveted-recruit-from-letter-of-intent

"Capel landed a player named Devonte' Graham, who's currently in prep school. His extra year before college basketball has led to an increased profile and a signficant upturn in potential suitors.

Problem for Graham is he signed his letter of intent to play at Appalachian State before he blew up, so to speak. And now, as first reported by SNY.tv, UConn, Creighton, Rhode Island and Pittsburgh are knocking on Graham's door, yet he can't do anything about it because Capel won't let the kid double back on his decision.

... Graham committed to Appalachian State in September 2012 out of Raleigh (N.C.) Broughton High School.

... Graham requested a release from his NLI last February but was denied. ...

According to an anonymous source ... Capel's holding a piece of paper of Graham's head because he believes at least one other program has tampered with his coveted prospect. If Graham wants to never play for App. State, he'll have to sit next season, lose a year of eligibility in the process, and then start at his program of choice for 2015-16."

Capel's response (via AD):

"We take particular exception to the unsubstantiated and irresponsible opinion of some media members that we are holding a student-athlete "hostage." With his family's blessing and support, Devonte Graham willingly and excitedly chose to sign a National Letter of Intent with Appalachian State last November after having the opportunity to be recruited by 351 NCAA Division I programs.

Furthermore, if he thought that a more desirable situation might arise in the future, he also had the option to wait until the late signing period in April to make his college choice. Since he chose to sign a binding Letter of Intent with Appalachian State, we stopped recruiting a large number of student-athletes at his position in his class who would have been grateful for the opportunity to receive a full scholarship to attend and play basketball at our great institution.

... due to his binding agreement with Appalachian State, other programs were not permitted by NCAA rules to contact him, be it directly or through people claiming to represent his interests. Due to our concerns that these rules were not followed and the fact that we had turned away all other potential student-athletes that could have capably filled his spot on the roster, we denied his request for a release from his binding Letter of Intent.

We also made the NCAA aware of our concerns. ..."

wilko
09-27-2013, 05:56 PM
Eh...
Jason is still a young Coach.
I'm sure is his still coming to grips with putting the work in and scouting this guy, developing a relationship and is feeling jilted now that the young man has better prospects...

He'll get over this... it'll just take a while.

Ultimately Jason will look in the mirror and realize that one day he will be AT a school were a similar young man wants to GO TO and is resending his commitment to someone else...

What goes around comes around..

WillJ
09-27-2013, 06:19 PM
It's sad how one seemingly innocuous mistake by Jason, made when he was only 17 or 18, can have such long-term repercussions. Maybe he should get a graduate degree from Duke to properly amend.

Olympic Fan
09-27-2013, 06:35 PM
I actually see Capel's POV.

He only has limited scholarships to offer. When Graham committed to APP State early, he likely stopped recruiting players at that position.

If Graham had changed his mind for a valid reason -- if APP State had changed coaches or if the school had gone on probation or a close family member were ill -- I'd have more sympathy. But he made the choice to sign with App State in the fall to give himself security, then he went out and had a great senior year and suddenly bigger programs are interested. So much for his commitment.

How would he react if he had signed that letter of intent, then App State had gotten somebody better and refused to honor the LOI?

Throw in the fact that ASU believes that NC State tampered -- Mark Gottfried's son was a prep teammate of Graham and easily could have passed on the fact that State would be interested -- and IMHO that's even more reason not to back down.

I think the NCAA has some unfair rules but this isn't one of them ... nobody makes you sign a LOI. But when you sign it, you stand by it -- unless there is a valid reason to back out (that's not the case here). I'm on Capel's side.

Indoor66
09-27-2013, 06:58 PM
I actually see Capel's POV.

He only has limited scholarships to offer. When Graham committed to APP State early, he likely stopped recruiting players at that position.

If Graham had changed his mind for a valid reason -- if APP State had changed coaches or if the school had gone on probation or a close family member were ill -- I'd have more sympathy. But he made the choice to sign with App State in the fall to give himself security, then he went out and had a great senior year and suddenly bigger programs are interested. So much for his commitment.

How would he react if he had signed that letter of intent, then App State had gotten somebody better and refused to honor the LOI?

Throw in the fact that ASU believes that NC State tampered -- Mark Gottfried's son was a prep teammate of Graham and easily could have passed on the fact that State would be interested -- and IMHO that's even more reason not to back down.

I think the NCAA has some unfair rules but this isn't one of them ... nobody makes you sign a LOI. But when you sign it, you stand by it -- unless there is a valid reason to back out (that's not the case here). I'm on Capel's side.

Now you site that old fashion idea that contracts have meaning! :mad::rolleyes::cool:

Henderson
09-27-2013, 08:31 PM
He may have been in the legal right to deny the LOI withdrawal, and he makes a good argument about the kid occupying a space that otherwise would have been available to someone else. It would be a nightmare if Letters of Intent meant nothing, particularly if other coaches thought a kid was fair game even after a LOI.

But this is not good for him or his program in the long run. And in the short run, what do you do with a freshman who has publicly stated he doesn't want to be there?

Good coaches look out for kids and their needs, regardless of how that affects their upcoming season. But in this case, holding the kid to his LOI is bad for his team in the short run and bad for him in the long run.

COYS
09-27-2013, 09:04 PM
Now you site that old fashion idea that contracts have meaning! :mad::rolleyes::cool:

This is the problem with LOI, though. Institutions DON'T have to sign anything with the kids. They are one way contracts and require nothing from the school.

As for ASU, I say tough luck that they didn't get another player at his position. This type of thing happens all the time for every school. Kris Humphries and Shaun Livingston both may have helped push Duke to titles or final fours. Who knows? However, K and Duke acted gracefully with regards to Humphries, and there was nothing they could do about Livingston, although I'm sure Duke would have acted gracefully in that situation, as well.

Why would Caple want him on the team, anyway? He probably won't be committed to App State in anyway if he is forced to play. Let the kid take advantage of what he views as a better opportunity. Don't force players to sign LOI's in the first place. And even if the kid doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt and has acted without respect, so what? It happens. It really is just basketball. Lodge the complaint about tampering without holding up the kid's life (and App State's, for that matter). And, ultimately, do a better job maintaining relationships with kids after they commit. That's what I say, anyway.

JasonEvans
09-27-2013, 09:37 PM
I have a friend who is very involved in the player's rights movement. He says no player should ever sign a LOI. It is a one-way, incredibly slanted contract. Now, I recognize that lower-tier players may feel like they have to sign the LOI as the school has more power than they do, but if some of the higher rated kids would take a stand against it and make it more common for kids to refuse to use the LOI, then it would become more and more acceptable for the lower-rated players to do the same.

All it takes is for a lot of kids at the top of the rankings to do this and it would bring the LOI system down.

Of course, I expect the players will actually take some steps to asset their rights when porcine creatures begin to sprout wings.

-Jason "while I see his perspective, I think Capel is the bad guy here. I hope the kid does a year of NAIA or Juco instead of giving in to Capel's strong-armed tactics" Evans

BD80
09-27-2013, 10:06 PM
Can Capel grant a "limited" release from the LOI, allowing him to go anywhere BUT NCState?

gep
09-28-2013, 12:05 AM
-Jason "while I see his perspective, I think Capel is the bad guy here. I hope the kid does a year of NAIA or Juco instead of giving in to Capel's strong-armed tactics" Evans

So... does this mean that the LOI, as it "currently" stands, is not worth the paper it's on. I think there's probably more than few cases where a player who signed a LOI asked "out". I'm curious... has there ever been a school that "cancelled" a LOI from a recruit? In other words, even if "one-way" contract, it's still something that I think should be honored. If a player doesn't like the LOI system, then it's simple... just don't sign one. Otherwise, he's trying to establish a "guaranteed" spot... knowing full well that he can just "change his mind".

Matches
09-28-2013, 07:49 AM
I actually see Capel's POV.

Throw in the fact that ASU believes that NC State tampered -- Mark Gottfried's son was a prep teammate of Graham and easily could have passed on the fact that State would be interested -- and IMHO that's even more reason not to back down.



Agreed, and I think this is really the salient point. This kid is not going to play for ASU and Capel certainly is aware of that at this point. If ASU believes there was tampering here, though, it makes all the sense in the world to deny a release until those allegations can be investigated.


Can Capel grant a "limited" release from the LOI, allowing him to go anywhere BUT NCState?

He can, and that's almost certainly what will end up happening. The kid will get a release but not to any school that supposedly tampered with him.

Bilas has been going after Capel hard here, pointing out that Jason could jump to another school whenever he wants regardless of a signed contract, and he's right to an extent. But tampering is not cool, and it's reasonable for ASU/ the NCAA to figure out whether that's happened here before making a decision. If ASU *after* that point denies the kid a release, I'd probably move over to Bilas' side of the argument.

RoyalBlue08
09-28-2013, 07:57 AM
High school kids are signing unfair, one-sided contracts? They should really hire someone with expertise to represent them and their interests. Oh wait.....never mind.

dyedwab
09-28-2013, 08:04 AM
If tampering is the issue, then the kid shouldn't be allowed to go to the school that tampered. I'm fine with that.

Other than that, I don't actually give a darn about how this hurts App State. LOI's are, as people have already stated, completely one-sided. Treating a player who has signed an LOI as though he is already a player on the team when it comes to going elsewhere is mind-bogglingly unfair.

And just because App State will eventually give him a limited release, in all likelihood, doesn't make them benevolent good guys here.

I've changed over the years, but I'll put it this way. I used to hate one-and-dones, but as I've gotten older, I've come to realize that the decision to go pro is one of the few levers college players have in a system where coaches can decided not to renew scholarships on a year to year basis, deny transfers for unannounced reasons, and deny kids a chance to play for a year even though he's never set foot as a student on your campus.

OldPhiKap
09-28-2013, 09:22 AM
High school kids are signing unfair, one-sided contracts? They should really hire someone with expertise to represent them and their interests. Oh wait.....never mind.

Exactly. But not to worry -- it's a fair cop.

Despite his baby blue days, I like Jason and hope his career flourishes.

devildeac
09-28-2013, 10:18 AM
Exactly. But not to worry -- it's a fair cop.

Despite his baby blue days, I like Jason and hope his career flourishes.

Jeff was better: clap, clap, clap/clap/clap.

;)

bob blue devil
09-28-2013, 11:38 AM
i get the idea that the kid signed a contract and that tampering is really sleazy and all, but we're talking about the interests of a kid that is making a life path decision here vs. the interests of some adults trying to promote their careers. cry me a river about the "harm" he's doing to App State's program because they didn't recruit someone else for his position. last i checked, that issue is not an important part of app state's or the ncaa's mission.

let the kid go where he wants; punish the sleazy adults if you can.

sagegrouse
09-28-2013, 11:49 AM
i get the idea that the kid signed a contract and that tampering is really sleazy and all, but we're talking about the interests of a kid that is making a life path decision here vs. the interests of some adults trying to promote their careers. cry me a river about the "harm" he's doing to App State's program because they didn't recruit someone else for his position. last i checked, that issue is not an important part of app state's or the ncaa's mission.

let the kid go where he wants; punish the sleazy adults if you can.

I think that's the likely outcome, with perhaps a carve-out to bar NC State.

My thought is that, surely, Jason is getting advice from his two closest coaching relatives, Jeff Capel II and Jeff Capel III.

sagegrouse

BD80
09-28-2013, 12:43 PM
...

My thought is that, surely, Jason is getting advice from his two closest coaching relatives, Jeff Capel II and Jeff Capel III.

sagegrouse

He were one to accept good advice, would he have selected unc?

Double DD
09-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I don't think a LOI is as one-sided as it's being made out to be here. The school is bound by the LOI to give the player a scholarship for one year. The only way a school could escape it is if the player is rejected by admissions.

Dukehky
09-28-2013, 01:16 PM
I think Capel will end up releasing him, but could very well being trying to just prove a point. I like it. Especially with the allegations of tampering. He is setting the tone that his program isn't going to bullied by the other bigger NC schools. I think this is more of a stick it to State thing than the kid, and like I said, I think after his extra year in HS that he's taking, Capel will release him, giving him 4 years of eligibility.

It's not just that Capel played at Carolina, it's that his jersey had that stupid NC logo on it instead of the North Carolina. Terrible.

WillJ
09-28-2013, 01:16 PM
I don't think a LOI is as one-sided as it's being made out to be here. The school is bound by the LOI to give the player a scholarship for one year. The only way a school could escape it is if the player is rejected by admissions.

I agree with this point. For every kid that "blows up" late and has better opportunities after signing an LOI with a middling school there's another kid that didn't quite develop like everyone thought he would and ends up getting placed too high. There's more of a problem when schools withdraw a scholarship after an LOI has been signed, as Maryland effectively did with Tamir Goodman.

OldPhiKap
09-28-2013, 02:47 PM
Jeff was better: clap, clap, clap/clap/clap.

;)

Agree with the old chant, but in reality both players were forced to probably play a more prominent role than suited them. Both know the game (thanks, Dad) and both appeared to be good complimentary players. Both were forced to take starring roles on their teams, which probably was not fair.

BD80
09-28-2013, 04:42 PM
... both appeared to be good complimentary players. ...

That's what makes them good coaches - unlike ol' roy who is so dadgum critical

dukefan1980
09-30-2013, 02:10 PM
I actually see Capel's POV.

He only has limited scholarships to offer. When Graham committed to APP State early, he likely stopped recruiting players at that position.

If Graham had changed his mind for a valid reason -- if APP State had changed coaches or if the school had gone on probation or a close family member were ill -- I'd have more sympathy. But he made the choice to sign with App State in the fall to give himself security, then he went out and had a great senior year and suddenly bigger programs are interested. So much for his commitment.

How would he react if he had signed that letter of intent, then App State had gotten somebody better and refused to honor the LOI?

Throw in the fact that ASU believes that NC State tampered -- Mark Gottfried's son was a prep teammate of Graham and easily could have passed on the fact that State would be interested -- and IMHO that's even more reason not to back down.

I think the NCAA has some unfair rules but this isn't one of them ... nobody makes you sign a LOI. But when you sign it, you stand by it -- unless there is a valid reason to back out (that's not the case here). I'm on Capel's side.

I couldn't agree more. He didn't have to sign a LOI so far in advance.

Duvall
09-30-2013, 02:25 PM
I actually see Capel's POV.

He only has limited scholarships to offer. When Graham committed to APP State early, he likely stopped recruiting players at that position.

If Graham had changed his mind for a valid reason -- if APP State had changed coaches or if the school had gone on probation or a close family member were ill -- I'd have more sympathy. But he made the choice to sign with App State in the fall to give himself security, then he went out and had a great senior year and suddenly bigger programs are interested. So much for his commitment.

How would he react if he had signed that letter of intent, then App State had gotten somebody better and refused to honor the LOI?

What would it mean for a school to not honor an LOI? What does it require a school to do?

BigWayne
09-30-2013, 10:11 PM
What would it mean for a school to not honor an LOI? What does it require a school to do?

The LOI guarantees the student that the institution will pay for his scholarship for one year.

The student side of the contract is that they are prevented from getting athletic aid to attend another institution in the NCAA.

Matches
10-01-2013, 11:05 AM
Aren't we all kind of dancing around the idea that the whole notion of LOIs is dubious? These are minors - they can't legally enter into binding contracts. That's why we're talking about "letters of intent" rather than "contracts" in the first place.

I appreciate the sentiment that, even at age 16-17, one's word should mean something. But the notion that LOIs are some sort of legally enforceable thing is absurd. And the notion that head coaches, who jump around from job to job all the time despite having actual, enforceable contracts, would have the ability to prevent a kid from doing the same is gross.

I stand by my earlier statement, though, that Capel and ASU will release this kid once they've investigated any alleged tampering.

Indoor66
10-01-2013, 02:27 PM
Aren't we all kind of dancing around the idea that the whole notion of LOIs is dubious? These are minors - they can't legally enter into binding contracts. That's why we're talking about "letters of intent" rather than "contracts" in the first place.

I appreciate the sentiment that, even at age 16-17, one's word should mean something. But the notion that LOIs are some sort of legally enforceable thing is absurd. And the notion that head coaches, who jump around from job to job all the time despite having actual, enforceable contracts, would have the ability to prevent a kid from doing the same is gross.

I stand by my earlier statement, though, that Capel and ASU will release this kid once they've investigated any alleged tampering.

All due respect but, subject to being corrected, LOI's are signed by the minor and their legal guardians. They are contracts.

Matches
10-01-2013, 02:51 PM
All due respect but, subject to being corrected, LOI's are signed by the minor and their legal guardians. They are contracts.

Having never seen one I certainly will defer to you, and appreciate the correction. Even with a guardian's signature, though, there's a very real question as to whether they would be enforceable against the kid. If something like that was really pursued by a school, in essence litigating to force a kid to play on its team - I don't see that ending well for anyone involved.

Olympic Fan
10-01-2013, 03:19 PM
Having never seen one I certainly will defer to you, and appreciate the correction. Even with a guardian's signature, though, there's a very real question as to whether they would be enforceable against the kid. If something like that was really pursued by a school, in essence litigating to force a kid to play on its team - I don't see that ending well for anyone involved.


Nobody is litigating to force the kid to play on their team ... they are enforcing the penalty clause of the contract that the player and his guardians signed. He doesn't have to play for the team,. bhut he can't play for anybody else next season.

The LOI has always required the signature of parents or LEGAL guardians. Some of us are old enough to remember when Tom McMillen signed a LOI with UNC. But his parents wouldn't sign -- Dean signed it anyway for publicity purposes, but when the parents finally got Tom to change his mind, his signed LOI became meaningless.

The LOI is a legal, binding contract.

I threw out the idea of a school refusing to honor one to illustrate how absurd Graham's action was. Of course, if App State refused to honor it, they would be sued and would almost certainly lose in court. But legally, I very much doubt that Graham has any chance of winning a legal action against the school.

Now, I would like to see modifications of the LOI ... as it stands, the schools do have loopholes -- if the prospect fails to qualify for admission, the LOI is revoked. I'd love to see it offer the kid a way out if there is a coaching change or the school lands on probation.

But I have no sympathy for a kid in Graham's case, who signed the contract then simply decided he could do better. He SHOULD have to sit out.

sagegrouse
10-01-2013, 03:24 PM
The LOI is a legal, binding contract.
.

In the business world, the LOI is used in almost all merger-and-acquisition deals. It doesn't compel anybody to do anything. The teeth are in the "breakup provisions" -- that is, if the deal doesn't go through, and there are usually no penalties unless a lot of other boxes have been checked (like "due diligence").

In that sense, as a business guy not a lawyer, the LOI is a very weak form of a contract.

sagegrouse