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vick
09-20-2013, 06:47 PM
"Nearly three months after he was selected by the Lakers with the 48th pick of the 2013 NBA draft, Duke forward Ryan Kelly signed a contract with the team.

Kelly spent most of the summer rehabbing his foot after April surgery. The Lakers announced the signing on Friday, and though the terms of his contract haven't been released, Kelly will make $490,180 in his rookie season."

Story here (http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-lakers-sign-ryan-kelly-20130920,0,7856290.story#axzz2fTYPWvir).

uh_no
09-20-2013, 07:37 PM
"Nearly three months after he was selected by the Lakers with the 48th pick of the 2013 NBA draft, Duke forward Ryan Kelly signed a contract with the team.

Kelly spent most of the summer rehabbing his foot after April surgery. The Lakers announced the signing on Friday, and though the terms of his contract haven't been released, Kelly will make $490,180 in his rookie season."

Story here (http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-lakers-sign-ryan-kelly-20130920,0,7856290.story#axzz2fTYPWvir).

nice. good for ryan

Tappan Zee Devil
09-20-2013, 09:06 PM
"Nearly three months after he was selected by the Lakers with the 48th pick of the 2013 NBA draft, Duke forward Ryan Kelly signed a contract with the team.

Kelly spent most of the summer rehabbing his foot after April surgery. The Lakers announced the signing on Friday, and though the terms of his contract haven't been released, Kelly will make $490,180 in his rookie season."

Story here (http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-lakers-sign-ryan-kelly-20130920,0,7856290.story#axzz2fTYPWvir).

Is it a guaranteed contract?

JasonEvans
09-20-2013, 09:27 PM
Is it a guaranteed contract?

As a mid-2nd rounder (48th pick of the draft), I can't imagine it is guaranteed.

-Jason

subzero02
09-20-2013, 11:00 PM
As a mid-2nd rounder (48th pick of the draft), I can't imagine it is guaranteed.

-Jason

Aren't all NBA contracts guaranteed?

OZZIE4DUKE
09-21-2013, 03:55 AM
Aren't all NBA contracts guaranteed?
Not second round draft picks', unless it's specifically written in. Still, great news for Ryan!

Turtleboy
09-21-2013, 06:38 AM
Did any of you folks actually read the article?

Dr. Rosenrosen
09-21-2013, 08:00 AM
Did any of you folks actually read the article?
Probably not but you could just answer the question instead of being snarky.

The answer is that it does not appear to be guaranteed. He will likely make it to training camp and will probably have to fight for a spot since the team is already over the opening night max of 15 players.

JasonEvans
09-21-2013, 10:16 AM
Aren't all NBA contracts guaranteed?

To be clear, some contracts are guaranteed and some are not. Established NBA players and all first round picks sign contracts that are guaranteed. But, lesser free agents and 2nd round picks typically sign contracts that only pay the player if he makes the roster (though they do get stipends and payments for each week they are on a pre-season or summer roster as well).

Once a unguaranteed player makes a roster, his contract for that season (and that season only) becomes guaranteed after he has been with the club for 20 days. So, there is a short period where a team can cut a player who is on their roster and not pay that player a full season contract. It is also worth noting that a player who joins a team at mid-season (a NBADL call up, perhaps) get a pro-rated portion of the full season salary if they stay with the club for more than 20 days.

Typicaly, a 2nd round draft pick will sign for the NBA minimum -- which this year is $490,180 for a rookie. Most teams include 2nd and 3rd year team options in the deal to make sure they control the player for a few seasons in case the player is actually good and in demand. The 2nd and 3rd year salaries are in the $800-900k kind of range.

-Jason "hope that helped" Evans

Turtleboy
09-21-2013, 01:58 PM
Probably not but you could just answer the question instead of being snarky.Or, people could actually do the slightest bit of work for themselves, especially when it requires all of one click. A click which, I might add, pretty much results in the point of the original post. It is literally they least could do to show a tiny bit of respect. Knowledge is so much sweeter when it isn't spoon fed.

Tappan Zee Devil
09-21-2013, 02:21 PM
Or, people could actually do the slightest bit of work for themselves, especially when it requires all of one click. A click which, I might add, pretty much results in the point of the original post. It is literally they least could do to show a tiny bit of respect. Knowledge is so much sweeter when it isn't spoon fed.

A snarky reply on snarkiness. It is somehow appropriate. And probably to be expected from a turtle.

JasonEvans
09-21-2013, 02:30 PM
Or, people could actually do the slightest bit of work for themselves, especially when it requires all of one click. A click which, I might add, pretty much results in the point of the original post. It is literally they least could do to show a tiny bit of respect. Knowledge is so much sweeter when it isn't spoon fed.

The article specifically says the following:


The terms of his contract haven't been released... It is unclear if any of Kelly's contract is promised.

Someone asked if the contract was guaranteed. While it is quite possible TZ Devil did not read the article, it is also possible that he or someone else who read the article might wonder if there was information out there elsewhere which would indicate to what extent the contract might be guaranteed. It is not like the article had an expressed and clear answer to the stated question.

What's more, once the question about the contract was asked, it allowed additional information about how the NBA's contract rules work to be posted in this thread. As the person who posted that info, I hope it serves to educate folks a little bit about these things. So, the question that you so disdainfully dismissed leads us to sharing more information and perspective on basketball.

I find it more than a little ironic that you would spend your post talking about "respect" when your replies show so little of that toward your fellow posters.

-Jason "sigh... " Evans

Indoor66
09-21-2013, 02:34 PM
Is it Basketball Season yet? :confused: :cool:

JNort
09-21-2013, 03:06 PM
Is it Basketball Season yet? :confused: :cool:

Not soon enough my friend... not soon enough *sigh*

JNort
09-21-2013, 03:13 PM
To get back on topic though I will say that I do not see a likely situation in which Ryan gets cut. Unless he just really stinks it up in the preseason and practice. He would be a perfect fit on offense with his ability to stretch out to mid range and 3pt shots. The lakers were terrible at floor spacing last year, Pau likes to play closer to the basket, Kobe like to have the floor open so he can work on his man and not to mention Ryan spreading the floor means Nash should have more open passing lanes. The Lakers were also a bad defense as a team last year, Ryan may not be gifted with all the abilities of an elite one on one defender but he makes a good defender within a team concept.

-I know I am making the situation out better than it probably is but I want Ryan to be a perfect fit for this team.

jay
09-21-2013, 04:54 PM
It is literally they least could do to show a tiny bit of respect.

LOL. I think perhaps you need to re-examine your expectations of internet message boards.

In other words, lighten up, Francis.

BD80
09-21-2013, 04:55 PM
... Knowledge is so much sweeter when it isn't spoon fed.

Link?

Edouble
09-21-2013, 06:04 PM
Someone asked if the contract was guaranteed. While it is quite possible TZ Devil did not read the article, it is also possible that he or someone else who read the article might wonder if there was information out there elsewhere which would indicate to what extent the contract might be guaranteed. It is not like the article had an expressed and clear answer to the stated question.

What's more, once the question about the contract was asked, it allowed additional information about how the NBA's contract rules work to be posted in this thread. As the person who posted that info, I hope it serves to educate folks a little bit about these things. So, the question that you so disdainfully dismissed leads us to sharing more information and perspective on basketball.

I find it more than a little ironic that you would spend your post talking about "respect" when your replies show so little of that toward your fellow posters.

-Jason "sigh... " Evans

Gotta stick up for Turtleboy on this one, even though I love and agree with about 95% of your posts, my fellow Atlantan.

It was clear that TZDevil didn't read the article. I, too, rolled my eyes at his post, and then later, had a nice warm feeling inside, after realing Turtleboy's response.

Edouble
09-21-2013, 06:08 PM
LOL. I think perhaps you need to re-examine your expectations of internet message boards.

It is stated around here, ad nauseum, that this is not merely just another internet message board.

JNort
09-21-2013, 07:30 PM
It is stated around here, ad nauseum, that this is not merely just another internet message board.

Hmmmm this here I agree with. This is not like other message boards where there are an insane amount of threads of the same topic, numerous unruly posters, and lazy moderators. In fact (Alert! Suck up moment coming) the moderators on here are what make this site so great by applying punishments fairly and keeping constant watch on all things that should not make it to threads.

However many times I get on here and someone posts a link to something and I just do not wanna read it so I will just type the question I wanna know and leave the page to go about looking in other threads or just surfing the web in general. Then later I come back to the thread and see what I want while going through all the posts. Much easier to type a question and read 1 to 2 lines rather than opening a link that I don't know where it goes and reading several paragraphs they may not interest me. Not lazy just smart IMO.

JBDuke
09-21-2013, 07:46 PM
Folks, this thread is about Ryan Kelly's contract with the Lakers, not about DBR board culture or standards of courtesy. Yes, we expect you to be nice. And yes, we expect you not to be so lazy that you don't click on a link before asking questions about it. And yes, we expect you to keep a thread on topic.

Further posts not related to the topic at hand will be deleted.

Tappan Zee Devil
09-21-2013, 08:45 PM
Folks, this thread is about Ryan Kelly's contract with the Lakers, not about DBR board culture or standards of courtesy. Yes, we expect you to be nice. And yes, we expect you not to be so lazy that you don't click on a link before asking questions about it. And yes, we expect you to keep a thread on topic.

Further posts not related to the topic at hand will be deleted.

Actually I DID read the link, but found it to be ambiguous. I was asking for clarification. I didn't mean to start this - but I will take the blame if necessary.
Let's move on.

superdave
09-22-2013, 08:49 PM
Oh boy. Kobe on a bad Laker team chucking up 8-29 every night and yelling at everyone. God bless Ryan Kelly with patience.

I like Kelly's corner 3 capabilities door the next decade.

Super "turtle soup" Dave

jimsumner
09-22-2013, 09:37 PM
I've always thought that if Matt Bonner and Steve Novak can carve out an NBA career, than Ryan Kelly can carve out an NBA career.

ice-9
09-23-2013, 12:04 AM
Oh boy. Kobe on a bad Laker team chucking up 8-29 every night and yelling at everyone. God bless Ryan Kelly with patience.

I like Kelly's corner 3 capabilities door the next decade.

Super "turtle soup" Dave


While I thought the Lakers were grossly overrated last season, they just might be underrated this season. This is a team that can make the playoffs, even if Bryant isn't 100%. Pau Gasol is much more effective as a center -- I don't know what the exact stats are or the source, but whenever he played the 5 he had superstar numbers. Steve Nash was injured most of last season and the team never gelled; but if he's there from the beginning directing the offense, we won't see the flow breakdown as much with Bryant chucking fadeaways.

Also, the Lakers will be underdogs this season with no expectations. That always helps bring the team together.

superdave
09-23-2013, 09:11 AM
While I thought the Lakers were grossly overrated last season, they just might be underrated this season. This is a team that can make the playoffs, even if Bryant isn't 100%. Pau Gasol is much more effective as a center -- I don't know what the exact stats are or the source, but whenever he played the 5 he had superstar numbers. Steve Nash was injured most of last season and the team never gelled; but if he's there from the beginning directing the offense, we won't see the flow breakdown as much with Bryant chucking fadeaways.

Also, the Lakers will be underdogs this season with no expectations. That always helps bring the team together.

Honestly, I would hate for Kobe to be a shadow of himself after this achilles injury. Too great a competitor for that. But history shows that older guys like him lose a step with this type of injury. If Gasol and Nash and Kobe can all stay on the court, the Lakers ought to be a marginal playoff team. That's a big if.

Kelly will get some minutes backing up the starters because he can guard the 4 and 5. I am not sure he will be a rotation players this year, but maybe next if he can consistently hit the 3.

Dev11
09-23-2013, 11:49 AM
Honestly, I would hate for Kobe to be a shadow of himself after this achilles injury. Too great a competitor for that. But history shows that older guys like him lose a step with this type of injury. If Gasol and Nash and Kobe can all stay on the court, the Lakers ought to be a marginal playoff team. That's a big if.

Kelly will get some minutes backing up the starters because he can guard the 4 and 5. I am not sure he will be a rotation players this year, but maybe next if he can consistently hit the 3.

Ryan can guard the 5 in the NBA? That might be a stretch, my friend. I hope he gets good enough to do so, though.

superdave
09-23-2013, 12:52 PM
Ryan can guard the 5 in the NBA? That might be a stretch, my friend. I hope he gets good enough to do so, though.

Ryan is listed at 6'11'' and 230.

For reference, Pau Gasol is 7'0'' and 250. Not a huge difference.

JNort
09-23-2013, 01:15 PM
Ryan is listed at 6'11'' and 230.

For reference, Pau Gasol is 7'0'' and 250. Not a huge difference.

Yes bit Ryan has poor lower body strength. He go pushed around I'm college I bet it's worse in the nba. I also agree with another poster that the lakers are very undervalued.

Wheat/"/"/"
09-23-2013, 01:35 PM
It's good to see Kelly get a shot after a solid college career, he's earned it.

But my guess is he will get killed as a post player in the NBA and never stick if that's somebody's plan for him.

His best hope is to showcase his outside shooting, work hard on his passing, and improve his ball handling to have a chance to make a roster.

If I was his agent, I'd try to drop hints and comparisons to Toni Kukoc potential every chance I had to GM's and hope somebody bites...the kid is big and can shoot a face up jumper with some range.

Realistically, I'd say the odds are against him from what we've seen over the years. His passing has been average at best for the NBA level, and he never really showed he could put it on the floor to create off the dribble.

Hustle and kick out set shots was his college game.

The plus side is he'd be a good teammate and a hard working player, the NBA always needs plenty of that.

Add that to the fact that he's a really good stretch shooter for his size that is not all that common in the NBA, and he at least has a chance as a specialist.

Billy Dat
09-23-2013, 03:12 PM
It's good to see Kelly get a shot after a solid college career, he's earned it.
But my guess is he will get killed as a post player in the NBA and never stick if that's somebody's plan for him.
His best hope is to showcase his outside shooting, work hard on his passing, and improve his ball handling to have a chance to make a roster.
If I was his agent, I'd try to drop hints and comparisons to Toni Kukoc potential every chance I had to GM's and hope somebody bites...the kid is big and can shoot a face up jumper with some range.
Realistically, I'd say the odds are against him from what we've seen over the years. His passing has been average at best for the NBA level, and he never really showed he could put it on the floor to create off the dribble.
Hustle and kick out set shots was his college game.
The plus side is he'd be a good teammate and a hard working player, the NBA always needs plenty of that.
Add that to the fact that he's a really good stretch shooter for his size that is not all that common in the NBA, and he at least has a chance as a specialist.

I actually think you make the perfect case for why he'll stick - as long as he can consistently hit that 3.

There's kind of is no such thing as a post player in the NBA anymore. Aside from a handful of big men (Hibbert, Howard, etc.) the game is played 100% inside out. As long as Ryan can guard other 4s on the perimeter - a big IF until we see it, but I thought his D was really underrated - and he can knock down 3s, he actually has arrived in the NBA at exactly the right time. Jim Sumner's comps, especially Matt Bonner, are good ones. The Lakers will staple him to the 3 point line to drag the other big out to open up the floor. He will have to hit open 3s, move the ball if he doesn't have a good look (he can make those passes), play team defense and rebound. He is also an underrated shot blocker.

Kobe is still sure to command a double team which means open shots for everyone else.

I think he'll make it.

Wheat/"/"/"
09-23-2013, 04:45 PM
I think he'll make it.

Maybe...but it could also be a favor to coach K to give him a look.

Not that Kelly hasn't earned a look, he has, but when I see a coaches son (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9713311/miami-heat-add-former-ucla-bruins-unc-tar-heels-guard-larry-drew-ii) get a look that hasn't earned it, I realize these things happen.

sagegrouse
09-23-2013, 05:20 PM
Maybe...but it could also be a favor to coach K to give him a look.

Not that Kelly hasn't earned a look, he has, but when I see a coaches son (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9713311/miami-heat-add-former-ucla-bruins-unc-tar-heels-guard-larry-drew-ii) get a look that hasn't earned it, I realize these things happen.

Wheat's reference is to Turnover Jesus getting signed by the Heat. Of course, an NBA coach's son gets a look, if he has any talent at all. Drew II actually had a decent season with UCLA -- 7.3 assists and 2.4 TOs, ranking 11th nationally in the A/TO ratio.

sagegrouse

Billy Dat
09-23-2013, 05:22 PM
Maybe...but it could also be a favor to coach K to give him a look.

Not that Kelly hasn't earned a look, he has, but when I see a coaches son (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9713311/miami-heat-add-former-ucla-bruins-unc-tar-heels-guard-larry-drew-ii) get a look that hasn't earned it, I realize these things happen.

Touche, Wheat. Very unfair to use Larry Drew II as your example, would he have been the example had he never left "heaven"? While Mike D might be interested in doing K a favor, would Tar Heel Mitch be interested in doing the same thing? I guess Mitch was part of the crew that made K a big job offer some time ago, but I heard K was only interested in that job because Jerry Buss promised to introduce him to Beyonce.

Anyway, I'll internalize the praise you gave Ryan, even if it touched your knuckles on the way over.

johnb
09-23-2013, 05:29 PM
While Ryan is probably a below-average NBA defender in regards to both lower body heft and quickness, I thought our defense went up a notch when he was playing. I'll bet his outside shooting will improve in the NBA, where he can focus completely on basketball, and, as has been said, he can be a very effective weapon if he helps draw a big away from the paint. I can't imagine an NBA team would sign a player to appease K (or Ryan's father in law); the stakes are too high. I'd be surprised if the Lakers weren't hoping he'll work his way into the rotation within a year or two.

Having said all that, I have two questions.

Is Ryan's contract guaranteed?

And is it okay to ask questions that can be answered by looking earlier in the thread?

sagegrouse
09-23-2013, 05:41 PM
While Ryan is probably a below-average NBA defender in regards to both lower body heft and quickness, I thought our defense went up a notch when he was playing. I'll bet his outside shooting will improve in the NBA, where he can focus completely on basketball, and, as has been said, he can be a very effective weapon if he helps draw a big away from the paint. I can't imagine an NBA team would sign a player to appease K (or Ryan's father in law); the stakes are too high. I'd be surprised if the Lakers weren't hoping he'll work his way into the rotation within a year or two.

Having said all that, I have two questions.

Is Ryan's contract guaranteed?

And is it okay to ask questions that can be answered by looking earlier in the thread?

Second-round draft choices are valuable. Remember Carlos Boozer was a second rounder. The Lakers want RKelly and hope/expect he will make the team. "Favors" occur through free-agent signings, and -- sure -- teams say "no" to requests, such as when they are already loaded at a position, 'cuz it would be unfair to the signee.

The terms have not been released. Only some 2nd round contracts are guaranteed, and it is a matter of negotiation. The player's main leverage is to resist the team option for renewal for a second and third year, which would be at the minimum value of around $1 million. If a player makes the team and does well, he could earn quite a bit more from another team in his second year.

Your second question is a trick question IMHO (where the H is silent). There are no answers to anything earlier in this thread.

sagegrouse

vick
09-23-2013, 06:05 PM
Second-round draft choices are valuable. Remember Carlos Boozer was a second rounder. The Lakers want RKelly and hope/expect he will make the team. "Favors" occur through free-agent signings, and -- sure -- teams say "no" to requests, such as when they are already loaded at a position, 'cuz it would be unfair to the signee.

The terms have not been released. Only some 2nd round contracts are guaranteed, and it is a matter of negotiation. The player's main leverage is to resist the team option for renewal for a second and third year, which would be at the minimum value of around $1 million. If a player makes the team and does well, he could earn quite a bit more from another team in his second year.

Your second question is a trick question IMHO (where the H is silent). There are no answers to anything earlier in this thread.

sagegrouse

I'm most of the way with you in that I think they expect he will make the team. I don't know that I would say that second-rounders are generally valuable though. Take a look at the guys drafted with Boozer (http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2002.html), and he stands out as by far the best player from the second round--in fact using Basketball Reference's Win Shares, which aren't perfect but are a decent box-score-based measure of value, Boozer alone is responsible for more than a third of the total production of the second rounders from that year. That's not a particularly unusual year either--check out the 2004 group (http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2004.html), where Varejao, Duhon, and Ariza are pretty much the only ones who had anything approaching NBA success, and Varejao the only one who could plausibly be described as an above-average NBA player.

Realistically, most second-rounders never make it into being even regular rotation players in the NBA. To be sure, there are better years (2003, 2005) , but if you have a regular rotation player from the second-round, you're doing good. If you pick up a Matt Bonner, you're doing great, and if you get a Carlos Boozer, you've hit the jackpot.

sagegrouse
09-23-2013, 06:23 PM
I'm most of the way with you in that I think they expect he will make the team. I don't know that I would say that second-rounders are generally valuable though. Take a look at the guys drafted with Boozer (http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2002.html), and he stands out as by far the best player from the second round--in fact using Basketball Reference's Win Shares, which aren't perfect but are a decent box-score-based measure of value, Boozer alone is responsible for more than a third of the total production of the second rounders from that year. That's not a particularly unusual year either--check out the 2004 group (http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2004.html), where Varejao, Duhon, and Ariza are pretty much the only ones who had anything approaching NBA success, and Varejao the only one who could plausibly be described as an above-average NBA player.

Realistically, most second-rounders never make it into being even regular rotation players in the NBA. To be sure, there are better years (2003, 2005) , but if you have a regular rotation player from the second-round, you're doing good. If you pick up a Matt Bonner, you're doing great, and if you get a Carlos Boozer, you've hit the jackpot.

I agree with you completely. My point is that "second-round draft picks are valuable" because of the potential of finding a player that has a good NBA career, not that most or all second-rounders achieve that level.

sage

vick
09-23-2013, 06:31 PM
I agree with you completely. My point is that "second-round draft picks are valuable" because of the potential of finding a player that has a good NBA career, not that most or all second-rounders achieve that level.

sage

Gotcha, then I'm in total agreement. In financial terms, a cheap out-of-the-money option, basically.

Wheat/"/"/"
09-23-2013, 06:35 PM
Touche, Wheat. Very unfair to use Larry Drew II as your example, would he have been the example had he never left "heaven"? While Mike D might be interested in doing K a favor, would Tar Heel Mitch be interested in doing the same thing? I guess Mitch was part of the crew that made K a big job offer some time ago, but I heard K was only interested in that job because Jerry Buss promised to introduce him to Beyonce.

Anyway, I'll internalize the praise you gave Ryan, even if it touched your knuckles on the way over.

Yea, I'd bet any NBA team would give a player coach K recommend a look. He garners that much respect in basketball circles. And I'll add that I don't see anything wrong with that.

It's one thing for a respected coach to push for his player, another for what looks like plain nepotism.

Kelly very well could have gotten his look on his own, and it was not fair for me to have to put him in the same category as Drew2, that really wasn't my intent, Kelly is a high level player...even if he is a borderline NBA player.

I just happened to see Drew2's signing today and had the thought about favors happening around the league.

I always defended Drew's talent, when very few did, even after he left for UCLA, he is a good player....but for anyone to say he has earned on his own a shot at the league without favoritism, when there are so many more deserving PG's out there is questionable at best.

I honestly believe I'd be saying the same thing now if he had stayed at UNC with his stats and abilities.

lotusland
09-23-2013, 08:38 PM
I just hope Ryan can get healthy and stay healthy long enough to show what he can do.

awhom111
09-23-2013, 09:08 PM
Yea, I'd bet any NBA team would give a player coach K recommend a look. He garners that much respect in basketball circles. And I'll add that I don't see anything wrong with that.

It's one thing for a respected coach to push for his player, another for what looks like plain nepotism.

Kelly very well could have gotten his look on his own, and it was not fair for me to have to put him in the same category as Drew2, that really wasn't my intent, Kelly is a high level player...even if he is a borderline NBA player.

I just happened to see Drew2's signing today and had the thought about favors happening around the league.

I always defended Drew's talent, when very few did, even after he left for UCLA, he is a good player....but for anyone to say he has earned on his own a shot at the league without favoritism, when there are so many more deserving PG's out there is questionable at best.

I honestly believe I'd be saying the same thing now if he had stayed at UNC with his stats and abilities.

It's not like Kelly was an undrafted free agent. He was generally projected as a late second round pick and ended up being a late second round pick. That is not the same thing as picking up a few warm bodies to make up the numbers in training camp.

If the Lakers did not think that Kelly could possibly contribute on level, they would have drafted someone else. If they did not think that he could possibly contribute this season, then they would have made no effort to sign him, just like the half or so of the second round picks who were basically told to take a hike (although in the case of Pierre Jackson, the French team he signed with is about ready to tell him to take a hike too).

JBDuke
09-23-2013, 09:34 PM
It's good to see Kelly get a shot after a solid college career, he's earned it.
But my guess is he will get killed as a post player in the NBA and never stick if that's somebody's plan for him.
His best hope is to showcase his outside shooting, work hard on his passing, and improve his ball handling to have a chance to make a roster.
If I was his agent, I'd try to drop hints and comparisons to Toni Kukoc potential every chance I had to GM's and hope somebody bites...the kid is big and can shoot a face up jumper with some range.
Realistically, I'd say the odds are against him from what we've seen over the years. His passing has been average at best for the NBA level, and he never really showed he could put it on the floor to create off the dribble.
Hustle and kick out set shots was his college game.
The plus side is he'd be a good teammate and a hard working player, the NBA always needs plenty of that.
Add that to the fact that he's a really good stretch shooter for his size that is not all that common in the NBA, and he at least has a chance as a specialist.

I think you're selling Ryan short, especially on the defensive side of the game. Sure, Ryan's not going to be able to contain the strong, front-line centers in the game - Howard, Marc Gasol, Hibbert, etc. But few NBA defenders can.
Ryan excelled as the second post defender, frequently getting blocks coming across the lane. And when paired up against a shorter opponent, even a stronger one, Ryan used his length, good timing, and smart positioning to be an effective defender.
On offense, while you're correct to recognize his shooting as a real strength, I'm not sure where you're coming from in saying his passage is "average at best" in the NBA. Ryan was a superior post passer, from what I saw. His ability to shoot and pass, play off of others, and stretch the defense makes him an asset.
I think Ryan's biggest limitations are his lack of physical quickness, which will hurt him against other stretch forwards, and his lack of lower body strength. But he has a really good mind for the game, and is almost always in the right place at the right time.
So, I think Ryan has a real shot to make a squad as a stretch 4 coming off the bench. He'll need to be paired with a strong low-post player, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Wheat/"/"/"
09-24-2013, 12:26 AM
I'm sold on his ability to shoot it face up with range when he has a little space.

I'm not sold on anything else he brings to the table at the NBA level...just yet. He is good enough to take a look at alongside proven players.

I won't totally discount him because he's big, hustles, and is fairly mobile, with a high release on his shot...the sort of player that might find a specific role he can fill.

My scouting report would say that defensively, he's easily overpowered inside.
He does have some length and plays reasonably well off the ball, which is a plus, but I can't see that overcoming his potential match up issues.

Can he guard the quicker 3's or 4's he will see? I think he'll struggle.

Bang with the stronger 4's and 5's? I just can't see it.

He plays a "tweener" game and he will have to shoot it very well to overcome his remaining average at best NBA level skills.

He's not shown strength or a post offensive game, or lock down individual defensive ability.

He didn't show me above average intangibles in college, like court vision or rebounding instincts.

He does have "good hands".

He's gonna have to make hay offensively from the wing, where he's an above average shooter, especially for his size.

But I'm afraid he is likely going to find it hard to get his shot off at the NBA level. They are big, strong and quick in the League and get after you when they want to.

He shoots it best off the catch with some space for his release, he doesn't elevate...and I question if he's quick enough to shake defenders, with or without the ball. He certainly has not proved he can create off the dribble.

I realize I'm sounding a bit harsh, but that's how I honestly see his game for the NBA, and the NBA is all about how his game will play there. They won't care he's a nice, hard working guy or what school he went to.

With all that said, I still wouldn't write him off because I could see him in a system that could get him that deadly face up set shot and him draining them. With his size and mobility, he might be able to help a team from the bench.

He will need to be lucky and find just the right situation to find a place in the NBA, IMO.

Edouble
09-24-2013, 01:53 AM
I'm sold on his ability to shoot it face up with range when he has a little space.

I'm not sold on anything else he brings to the table at the NBA level...just yet. He is good enough to take a look at alongside proven players.

I won't totally discount him because he's big, hustles, and is fairly mobile, with a high release on his shot...the sort of player that might find a specific role he can fill.

My scouting report would say that defensively, he's easily overpowered inside.
He does have some length and plays reasonably well off the ball, which is a plus, but I can't see that overcoming his potential match up issues.

Can he guard the quicker 3's or 4's he will see? I think he'll struggle.

Bang with the stronger 4's and 5's? I just can't see it.

He plays a "tweener" game and he will have to shoot it very well to overcome his remaining average at best NBA level skills.

He's not shown strength or a post offensive game, or lock down individual defensive ability.

He didn't show me above average intangibles in college, like court vision or rebounding instincts.

He does have "good hands".

He's gonna have to make hay offensively from the wing, where he's an above average shooter, especially for his size.

But I'm afraid he is likely going to find it hard to get his shot off at the NBA level. They are big, strong and quick in the League and get after you when they want to.

He shoots it best off the catch with some space for his release, he doesn't elevate...and I question if he's quick enough to shake defenders, with or without the ball. He certainly has not proved he can create off the dribble.

I realize I'm sounding a bit harsh, but that's how I honestly see his game for the NBA, and the NBA is all about how his game will play there. They won't care he's a nice, hard working guy or what school he went to.

With all that said, I still wouldn't write him off because I could see him in a system that could get him that deadly face up set shot and him draining them. With his size and mobility, he might be able to help a team from the bench.

He will need to be lucky and find just the right situation to find a place in the NBA, IMO.

Fair assessment of Kelly, but I will say... I never thought that Noah would be the banger that he is today.

I think he has better court vision than you are giving him credit for.

I think Kelly is pretty good one-on-one when he has space to operate. Last year, he seemed to sometimes spin into traffic in the lane and have nowhere to go. When he was successful, he had space, which he will have in the league.

Des Esseintes
09-24-2013, 02:24 AM
Fair assessment of Kelly, but I will say... I never thought that Noah would be the banger that he is today.

I think he has better court vision than you are giving him credit for.

I think Kelly is pretty good one-on-one when he has space to operate. Last year, he seemed to sometimes spin into traffic in the lane and have nowhere to go. When he was successful, he had space, which he will have in the league.

Plus, stretch fours are just not a defensively robust lot, generally. Ryan Andersen, Matt Bonner, Steve Novak--these guys play because their value to the offense as shooters and spacers more than offsets what they give back on the defensive end. Not to say defense is unimportant; far from it. But who among that group can be said to stay strong under the basket against bangers or keep up with quick 4s on the perimeter?

Shooting is the most valuable skill. If Ryan can shoot, he'll play.

jv001
09-24-2013, 07:56 AM
I'm sold on his ability to shoot it face up with range when he has a little space.

I'm not sold on anything else he brings to the table at the NBA level...just yet. He is good enough to take a look at alongside proven players.

I won't totally discount him because he's big, hustles, and is fairly mobile, with a high release on his shot...the sort of player that might find a specific role he can fill.

My scouting report would say that defensively, he's easily overpowered inside.
He does have some length and plays reasonably well off the ball, which is a plus, but I can't see that overcoming his potential match up issues.

Can he guard the quicker 3's or 4's he will see? I think he'll struggle.

Bang with the stronger 4's and 5's? I just can't see it.

He plays a "tweener" game and he will have to shoot it very well to overcome his remaining average at best NBA level skills.

He's not shown strength or a post offensive game, or lock down individual defensive ability.

He didn't show me above average intangibles in college, like court vision or rebounding instincts.

He does have "good hands".

He's gonna have to make hay offensively from the wing, where he's an above average shooter, especially for his size.

But I'm afraid he is likely going to find it hard to get his shot off at the NBA level. They are big, strong and quick in the League and get after you when they want to.

He shoots it best off the catch with some space for his release, he doesn't elevate...and I question if he's quick enough to shake defenders, with or without the ball. He certainly has not proved he can create off the dribble.

I realize I'm sounding a bit harsh, but that's how I honestly see his game for the NBA, and the NBA is all about how his game will play there. They won't care he's a nice, hard working guy or what school he went to.

With all that said, I still wouldn't write him off because I could see him in a system that could get him that deadly face up set shot and him draining them. With his size and mobility, he might be able to help a team from the bench.

He will need to be lucky and find just the right situation to find a place in the NBA, IMO.

Something tells me, if Ryan had played at unc, you would be singing his praises instead of saying he'll be lucky to find a place in the NBA. Those things you mentioned as a positive would be dwelt on more and his negatives much less. GoDuke!

Wheat/"/"/"
09-24-2013, 08:24 AM
Something tells me, if Ryan had played at unc, you would be singing his praises instead of saying he'll be lucky to find a place in the NBA. Those things you mentioned as a positive would be dwelt on more and his negatives much less. GoDuke!

If I had time this morning, I could do an assessment of Kendall Marshall that would read much like Kelly's except I'd replace strong shooting skills with strong vision and passing ability.

Kendall is going to have to get lucky and find the right situation for his skills or he'll be out of the league soon.

The NBA workplace is survival of the fittest.

JasonEvans
09-24-2013, 08:44 AM
While the Duke/Kelly fan in me would love to slap down Wheat for his somewhat pessimistic assessment of Ryan's game, the truth is that much of what Wheat wrote is likely dead on target. Ryan faces a real uphill climb to be much more than a deep off the bench complimentary player in the NBA. It is not just Wheat's opinion saying that. The fact that NBA teams passed on Ryan until the 48th pick in the draft speaks LOUDLY about what the NBA thinks of his chances to be an impact player in the league.

While people like to cite lots of 2nd round picks who went on to be stars or significant NBA players, I think there is a real difference in where Ryan was drafted (48th pick, mid-late 2nd round) and the draft position of significant 2nd round picks like Boozer (35th pick), Verejao (31st), Arenas (30th) and others who turned into strong NBA starters or stars.

The best guys** taken anywhere near Ryan (40th pick or later) in the draft in recent years are probably Monta Ellis (40th pick, 2005), Lou Williams (45th, 2005), Paul Millsaps (47th, 2006), Ramon Sessions (56th, 2007), and Danny Green (46th, 2009). The reality is that the vast majority of guys picked in the 40s and beyond end up playing in the D-League or Europe and barely get a cup of coffee in the NBA.

**- Not counting foreigners who NBA teams stash in Europe with 2nd round picks and sometimes develop

-Jason "I hope Ryan makes an impact and think he has a shot at it, but the reality is that it is a bit of a longshot" Evans

Li_Duke
09-24-2013, 09:41 AM
If I had time this morning, I could do an assessment of Kendall Marshall that would read much like Kelly's except I'd replace strong shooting skills with strong vision and passing ability.

Kendall is going to have to get lucky and find the right situation for his skills or he'll be out of the league soon.

The NBA workplace is survival of the fittest.

Of course the major difference is about 7 inches in height...

Not that I disagree with your assessment of Kelly. I think the best case scenario for Ryan Kelly is Ryan Anderson and worse case scenario is a less consistent Matt Bonner/Steve Novak. He's a low ceiling/high floor player who carries himself professionally and comes with no baggage. Additionally, recent trends in the NBA makes stretch 4s more valuable than ever. Even if the Lakers didn't take him as a 2nd round pick; Ryan would have gotten a look from any of a number of teams that could use shooting+size (Detroit and Washington both comes to mind).

JasonEvans
09-24-2013, 10:23 AM
Folks, if you want a decent comparison of the challenge Kelly faces to be even a rotation player in the NBA, look no further than Jon Leuer.

For those of you who do know recall his career, Leuer is a 6-10 PF from Wisconsin who had a very nice college career. He was a strong outside shooter for a guy his size (he hit 100 3pters in his college career, shooting at a very respectable 37% rate) and was a leading contender for Big Ten POY as a senior as well as being about a 3rd team All-American. He was drafted #40 by the Bucks in 2011.

In the NBA, he has really struggled to find a role. His first year in Milwaukee he did ok, getting about 12 minutes per game and scoring 4.7 ppg. But, it was nothing special and he was dealt to Houston in a draft-day trade in 2012. The Rockets cut him a few weeks later in a salary cap move. Cleveland signed him but he could not crack their rotation. They dealt him in the middle of the season to Memphis who also did not play him much. He will be one of the guys struggling to make the end of the Griz bench this year.

Jon Leuer had a better college career than Ryan Kelly. He was a better rebounder and passer than Kelly and they both made a living stepping outside to bury face-up jumpers. Kelly is a bit longer, though I think Leuer is probably a little stronger than Ryan.

While I hope Ryan can find more of a role and home than Leuer has in the NBA, I think this case demonstrates how difficult it is to make an impact in the NBA if you are not an elite athlete with freak-like abilities. Merely being big and smart with a good shooting touch doesn't get you as far as we might like to believe.

-Jason "I'd love for Kelly to make it and be a rotation player in the league, I think he has a shot at it but it will be tough" Evans

loran16
09-24-2013, 12:57 PM
Folks, if you want a decent comparison of the challenge Kelly faces to be even a rotation player in the NBA, look no further than Jon Leuer.

For those of you who do know recall his career, Leuer is a 6-10 PF from Wisconsin who had a very nice college career. He was a strong outside shooter for a guy his size (he hit 100 3pters in his college career, shooting at a very respectable 37% rate) and was a leading contender for Big Ten POY as a senior as well as being about a 3rd team All-American. He was drafted #40 by the Bucks in 2011.

In the NBA, he has really struggled to find a role. His first year in Milwaukee he did ok, getting about 12 minutes per game and scoring 4.7 ppg. But, it was nothing special and he was dealt to Houston in a draft-day trade in 2012. The Rockets cut him a few weeks later in a salary cap move. Cleveland signed him but he could not crack their rotation. They dealt him in the middle of the season to Memphis who also did not play him much. He will be one of the guys struggling to make the end of the Griz bench this year.

Jon Leuer had a better college career than Ryan Kelly. He was a better rebounder and passer than Kelly and they both made a living stepping outside to bury face-up jumpers. Kelly is a bit longer, though I think Leuer is probably a little stronger than Ryan.

While I hope Ryan can find more of a role and home than Leuer has in the NBA, I think this case demonstrates how difficult it is to make an impact in the NBA if you are not an elite athlete with freak-like abilities. Merely being big and smart with a good shooting touch doesn't get you as far as we might like to believe.

-Jason "I'd love for Kelly to make it and be a rotation player in the league, I think he has a shot at it but it will be tough" Evans

This is totally true. On the other hand, it's a shot for a guy who was unlikely to get one, and hey even an NBA minimum salary is pretty damn nice.

JNort
09-24-2013, 02:08 PM
Last year Kelly attempted only a few post shots but they looked really good and from what I remember they were very effective. However that was not Ryan's role, he was needed to space the floor for Mason. I think Ryan could develop a good post shot from what I have seen. Besides how many guys actually have a good post shot the first couple years in the NBA? Ryan biggest problem IMO is lower body strength, everything else can be overcome.

phaedrus
09-24-2013, 02:33 PM
Jon Leuer had a better college career than Ryan Kelly. He was a better rebounder and passer than Kelly and they both made a living stepping outside to bury face-up jumpers. Kelly is a bit longer, though I think Leuer is probably a little stronger than Ryan.


Not sure Leuer was stronger. Leuer for his whole career looked like Kelly did as a freshman. That said, Leuer was a better college rebounder, so I'm not sure it matters.

jv001
09-24-2013, 03:05 PM
If I had time this morning, I could do an assessment of Kendall Marshall that would read much like Kelly's except I'd replace strong shooting skills with strong vision and passing ability.

Kendall is going to have to get lucky and find the right situation for his skills or he'll be out of the league soon.

The NBA workplace is survival of the fittest.

I agree with your assessment of both Kelly and Marshall. GoDuke!

ice-9
09-25-2013, 06:32 AM
I'm sold on his ability to shoot it face up with range when he has a little space.

I'm not sold on anything else he brings to the table at the NBA level...just yet. He is good enough to take a look at alongside proven players.

I won't totally discount him because he's big, hustles, and is fairly mobile, with a high release on his shot...the sort of player that might find a specific role he can fill.

My scouting report would say that defensively, he's easily overpowered inside.
He does have some length and plays reasonably well off the ball, which is a plus, but I can't see that overcoming his potential match up issues.

Can he guard the quicker 3's or 4's he will see? I think he'll struggle.

Bang with the stronger 4's and 5's? I just can't see it.

He plays a "tweener" game and he will have to shoot it very well to overcome his remaining average at best NBA level skills.

He's not shown strength or a post offensive game, or lock down individual defensive ability.

He didn't show me above average intangibles in college, like court vision or rebounding instincts.

He does have "good hands".

He's gonna have to make hay offensively from the wing, where he's an above average shooter, especially for his size.

But I'm afraid he is likely going to find it hard to get his shot off at the NBA level. They are big, strong and quick in the League and get after you when they want to.

He shoots it best off the catch with some space for his release, he doesn't elevate...and I question if he's quick enough to shake defenders, with or without the ball. He certainly has not proved he can create off the dribble.

I realize I'm sounding a bit harsh, but that's how I honestly see his game for the NBA, and the NBA is all about how his game will play there. They won't care he's a nice, hard working guy or what school he went to.

With all that said, I still wouldn't write him off because I could see him in a system that could get him that deadly face up set shot and him draining them. With his size and mobility, he might be able to help a team from the bench.

He will need to be lucky and find just the right situation to find a place in the NBA, IMO.


One thing we're underestimating is Ryan's ability to put the ball on the floor. Against bigger and therefore slower PFs he'll be able to put that into good use. So he might be a weakness defensively, but he can turn that into a strength offensively. He'll be more than just a spot up shooter; he'll be a scorer. D'Antoni's system and Nash at PG suit Ryan well in that regard.

Wheat/"/"/"
09-25-2013, 09:37 AM
One thing we're underestimating is Ryan's ability to put the ball on the floor. Against bigger and therefore slower PFs he'll be able to put that into good use. So he might be a weakness defensively, but he can turn that into a strength offensively. He'll be more than just a spot up shooter; he'll be a scorer. D'Antoni's system and Nash at PG suit Ryan well in that regard.


I look at a guy like Josh McRoberts when trying to consider Kelly's potential to play in the NBA. You guys know him, and he's about the same size as Kelly.

Josh is a really good ball handler for his size and has above average floor vision. He's creative and can run the floor. He has scoring skills, but he struggles to score. He's tough and active inside, but he really struggles defensively in the NBA. Still, he has managed to stick around the league and carve out a career as a second round pick.

I look at Kelly's abilities in comparison to McRoberts and I only see his face up outside shooting as probably better than McRoberts. Everything else is significantly below what I see from Josh, IMO.

So we see how hard it has been for McRoberts to make it. And I'd argue he's a much better player.

Best of luck to Ryan, hope he shoots it lights out when he gets the chance. It's a tough mountain to climb.

JasonEvans
09-25-2013, 10:03 AM
I look at a guy like Josh McRoberts when trying to consider Kelly's potential to play in the NBA. You guys know him, and he's about the same size as Kelly.

Wheat, you are too smart for this. Comparing Kelly and McRoberts is just silly. They are in no way similar players, aside from their size and the fact that they both play PF. It is like taking an apple and an orange and saying, "they are both round and both are fruits so we can compare them." Silly.

There are plenty of reasons to doubt Kelly's ability to be a meaningful player in the NBA, as I noted above in talking about Jon Leuer and as you have pointed out several times, but comparing him to guys who are in no way similar is not productive, IMO.

-Jason "worth noting, McJosh is a rotation player and occasional starter in the NBA who will pass $10 mil in career earnings this season... aside from his first season or two when he was still quite young, he hasn't exactly struggled to make it in the NBA" Evans

Edouble
09-25-2013, 12:05 PM
One thing we're underestimating is Ryan's ability to put the ball on the floor. Against bigger and therefore slower PFs he'll be able to put that into good use. So he might be a weakness defensively, but he can turn that into a strength offensively. He'll be more than just a spot up shooter; he'll be a scorer. D'Antoni's system and Nash at PG suit Ryan well in that regard.

Just because they're bigger than Ryan, does not mean they are slower than Ryan.

For example, the power forward on the other team in town, Blake Griffin.

Ichabod Drain
09-25-2013, 12:40 PM
One thing we're underestimating is Ryan's ability to put the ball on the floor. Against bigger and therefore slower PFs he'll be able to put that into good use. So he might be a weakness defensively, but he can turn that into a strength offensively. He'll be more than just a spot up shooter; he'll be a scorer. D'Antoni's system and Nash at PG suit Ryan well in that regard.


Just because they're bigger than Ryan, does not mean they are slower than Ryan.

For example, the power forward on the other team in town, Blake Griffin.

For that matter I don't think there are too many slow power forwards left in the NBA

Kedsy
09-25-2013, 03:44 PM
Just because they're bigger than Ryan, does not mean they are slower than Ryan.

For example, the power forward on the other team in town, Blake Griffin.

Except Griffin is shorter than Ryan, though he may be heavier.

ChillinDuke
09-25-2013, 03:55 PM
If Ryan hits the 3 at a decent clip, I think he'll stick.

The rest is all just tangential to that main plot, IMHO.

- Chillin

Wheat/"/"/"
09-25-2013, 03:56 PM
Wheat, you are too smart for this. Comparing Kelly and McRoberts is just silly. They are in no way similar players, aside from their size and the fact that they both play PF. It is like taking an apple and an orange and saying, "they are both round and both are fruits so we can compare them." Silly.

There are plenty of reasons to doubt Kelly's ability to be a meaningful player in the NBA, as I noted above in talking about Jon Leuer and as you have pointed out several times, but comparing him to guys who are in no way similar is not productive, IMO.

-Jason "worth noting, McJosh is a rotation player and occasional starter in the NBA who will pass $10 mil in career earnings this season... aside from his first season or two when he was still quite young, he hasn't exactly struggled to make it in the NBA" Evans

Jason,

I realize they are not that similar, and that was sort of my point. Look how much more overall a talented player Josh is and he is a bench player in the league.

If Kelly hopes to make it he will need to become more like McRoberts, expand his game beyond that set shot, mix it up on the boards and run the floor, I don't see any other way.

And he's going to have to do it playing PF, inside and out, it's the only position he can hope to play with his current skill set.

I won't go so far as to say he can't do it well enough to make a roster, he's got some skills, but he's got his work cut out for him.

Edouble
09-25-2013, 04:07 PM
Except Griffin is shorter than Ryan, though he may be heavier.

I am comfortable calling Griffin, 6'10", 250 lbs., bigger than Ryan Kelly.

flyingdutchdevil
09-25-2013, 04:14 PM
I am comfortable calling Griffin, 6'10", 250 lbs., bigger than Ryan Kelly.

Height may be disputed. Kelly may be a little taller (he's generally listed at 6'11"). Kelly is definitely lighter, and significantly skinnier. Honestly, you'd be hard pressed to find a big man in the league who is skinnier than Kelly. The man can shoot, he can defend the 4, but he will get bullied around in the post.

Des Esseintes
09-25-2013, 04:48 PM
Jason,

I realize they are not that similar, and that was sort of my point. Look how much more overall a talented player Josh is and he is a bench player in the league.

If Kelly hopes to make it he will need to become more like McRoberts, expand his game beyond that set shot, mix it up on the boards and run the floor, I don't see any other way.

And he's going to have to do it playing PF, inside and out, it's the only position he can hope to play with his current skill set.

I won't go so far as to say he can't do it well enough to make a roster, he's got some skills, but he's got his work cut out for him.
Except McBob can't shoot. A more complete player may not be better compensated than a less complete player if the other guy is better at more valuable skills. That is the reason these two guys are bad comps: they are selling very different products, and those products are not evaluated in the same ways.

I mean, Monta Ellis has an atrociously narrow skill set, but since it includes the ability to score in bunches, he remains better compensated than some much more admirable players.

flyingdutchdevil
09-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Except McBob can't shoot. A more complete player may not be better compensated than a less complete player if the other guy is better at more valuable skills. That is the reason these two guys are bad comps: they are selling very different products, and those products are not evaluated in the same ways.

I mean, Monta Ellis has an atrociously narrow skill set, but since it includes the ability to score in bunches, he remains better compensated than some much more admirable players.

This isn't all that true. Monta fired his agent this summer because his agent advised Monta to opt-out of his contract and Monta couldn't get any additional value (he actually got a worse contract). Monta is a poor example; he's actually very similar to Corey Maggette in their skill sets (although Monta is a better shooter and Corey a much better penetrator).

However, I completely understand what you're saying. I would say that Kyle Korver is a good example of that.

Des Esseintes
09-25-2013, 05:01 PM
This isn't all that true. Monta fired his agent this summer because his agent advised Monta to opt-out of his contract and Monta couldn't get any additional value (he actually got a worse contract). Monta is a poor example; he's actually very similar to Corey Maggette in their skill sets (although Monta is a better shooter and Corey a much better penetrator).

However, I completely understand what you're saying. I would say that Kyle Korver is a good example of that.

Brother-man didn't get as much as he *wanted*, perhaps, but that's a far cry from saying he got little. The contract Ellis signed with Dallas was widely panned and considered overgenerous. But the dude can score, and somebody will pay for scoring.

He fired his agent because they were both engaging in magical thinking.

DukieInBrasil
09-25-2013, 05:56 PM
Except McBob can't shoot. A more complete player may not be better compensated than a less complete player if the other guy is better at more valuable skills. That is the reason these two guys are bad comps: they are selling very different products, and those products are not evaluated in the same ways.

I mean, Monta Ellis has an atrociously narrow skill set, but since it includes the ability to score in bunches, he remains better compensated than some much more admirable players.

Josh has a 31.4% career 3FG%, and if you remove his first 2 stints where he was 0-11, he's a career 33% 3FG shooter. He's a career 49.7% FG shooter too, and, again, if you remove his first 2 stints in the league, he's a career 50.4% shooter. Josh can shoot, he's not great, but 33% 3FG% and 50% FG will keep you in the League.

Des Esseintes
09-25-2013, 06:57 PM
Josh has a 31.4% career 3FG%, and if you remove his first 2 stints where he was 0-11, he's a career 33% 3FG shooter. He's a career 49.7% FG shooter too, and, again, if you remove his first 2 stints in the league, he's a career 50.4% shooter. Josh can shoot, he's not great, but 33% 3FG% and 50% FG will keep you in the League.

I think you're making my point. 31% from deep sucks. League average is 36%. Moreover, the fact that 11 threes could have a significant impact on his CAREER percentage should tell you everything you need to know about what Josh's coaches want him doing on the court. If Ryan cannot shoot much higher than 31%, he will not pay in the NBA and may struggle to get good European gigs. I'm confident he can, though.

Ryan and Josh are very different players. Just because Josh can survive with a weak shot doesn't mean Ryan can. Wheat is right that Josh brings more pieces to the table.

awhom111
09-26-2013, 04:32 PM
Ryan has a little bit more competition in the frontcourt:
http://www.nba.com/lakers/releases/130925boateng_djo

Interestingly enough Eric Boateng is the second Duke transfer to head to NBA training camp after playing in Europe last season as Olek Czyz is with the Milwaukee Bucks.

ice-9
09-27-2013, 04:20 AM
Just because they're bigger than Ryan, does not mean they are slower than Ryan.

For example, the power forward on the other team in town, Blake Griffin.

I agree if speed is the forward moving type; my hypothesis is that Blake would have trouble keeping up with Ryan laterally if he's up close trying to close out the shot. I could be wrong though I hope I'm right...we'll see.