Football Attendance Frustration Challenge

[Dopeshop]

Like most of you , I support Duke Student athletes whenever and however I can.

I 've given up on rational ,comprehensible explanations to give our players and staff.

Duke has a good coach , lots of 3 star players , was 2-0,had no competing games at UNC/State,perfect weather, and yet .....20,000 in WW.

It was more than humiliating --never mind the effect on recruits. So here's a delusional challenge:

If you had unlimited money and resources, what would you do to get 33,941 in the seats for home games ,regardless of the W-L record and regardless of the opponent ?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Like most of you , I support Duke Student athletes whenever and however I can.

I 've given up on rational ,comprehensible explanations to give our players and staff.

Duke has a good coach , lots of 3 star players , was 2-0,had no competing games at UNC/State,perfect weather, and yet .....20,000 in WW.

It was more than humiliating --never mind the effect on recruits. So here's a delusional challenge:

If you had unlimited money and resources, what would you do to get 33,941 in the seats for home games ,regardless of the W-L record and regardless of the opponent ?

That's the $64K question.

Invite them and take them to the game. Entice them with a good party beforehand. That's what I do!;)

[uh_no]

Like most of you , I support Duke Student athletes whenever and however I can.

I 've given up on rational ,comprehensible explanations to give our players and staff.

Duke has a good coach , lots of 3 star players , was 2-0,had no competing games at UNC/State,perfect weather, and yet .....20,000 in WW.

It was more than humiliating --never mind the effect on recruits. So here's a delusional challenge:

If you had unlimited money and resources, what would you do to get 33,941 in the seats for home games ,regardless of the W-L record and regardless of the opponent ?

free stuff?

otherwise, impossible

but not charging ridiculous amounts for miniscule amounts of food, nor 10$ for parking miles away, more shade in the bowl, a promenade that has less of a parking lot like feel, and free stuff

[Channing]

(1) Free parking
(2) I would take 100 basketball season tix and give football season tix holders who attended every game (the prior year, since there is some season overlap) the opportunity to purchase 2 or 3 games for face value.
(3) Free tickets for local youth football leauges

The problem is Duke just doesn't have a recent history of football success, so the local support network just isn't there. Add to that fact that most alums move away from Durham after school, and most alums who come back to campus want to come back for a bball game not a football game, and it is going to be tough sledding.

It was tough to tell on TV, but it looked like a good turnout for the student section.

[uh_no]

(1) Free parking
(2) I would take 100 basketball season tix and give football season tix holders who attended every game (the prior year, since there is some season overlap) the opportunity to purchase 2 or 3 games for face value.
(3) Free tickets for local youth football leauges

The problem is Duke just doesn't have a recent history of football success, so the local support network just isn't there. Add to that fact that most alums move away from Durham after school, and most alums who come back to campus want to come back for a bball game not a football game, and it is going to be tough sledding.

It was tough to tell on TV, but it looked like a good turnout for the student section.

It was.

[johnb]

Like most of you , I support Duke Student athletes whenever and however I can.

I 've given up on rational ,comprehensible explanations to give our players and staff.

Duke has a good coach , lots of 3 star players , was 2-0,had no competing games at UNC/State,perfect weather, and yet .....20,000 in WW.

It was more than humiliating --never mind the effect on recruits. So here's a delusional challenge:

If you had unlimited money and resources, what would you do to get 33,941 in the seats for home games ,regardless of the W-L record and regardless of the opponent ?

Short of converting Duke into a large state school or offering a financial/entertainment inducement to attend (make it a carnival atmosphere or hand out $20 bills whenever they bought a soda), I don't see how it's possible. Why SHOULD 33,000 people show up? Without a huge alumni base, a team needs a particularly entertaining product. Without either, it's going to be a tough sell. We're on the right track, but, for us to create Duke fans out of sports fans, we need to play Georgia Techs even and be reasonably competitive with the Florida States and Clemsons. I'd guess that the average sports fan near Durham would think, "hmm, this will be a 38-14 game. Maybe I'll go see a movie instead." If we can move up a notch in the eyes of the casual fan with a couple of winning seasons, that calculus should change.

[uh_no]

Short of converting Duke into a large state school or offering a financial/entertainment inducement to attend (make it a carnival atmosphere or hand out $20 bills whenever they bought a soda), I don't see how it's possible. Why SHOULD 33,000 people show up? Without a huge alumni base, a team needs a particularly entertaining product. Without either, it's going to be a tough sell. We're on the right track, but, for us to create Duke fans out of sports fans, we need to play Georgia Techs even and be reasonably competitive with the Florida States and Clemsons. I'd guess that the average sports fan near Durham would think, "hmm, this will be a 38-14 game. Maybe I'll go see a movie instead." If we can move up a notch in the eyes of the casual fan with a couple of winning seasons, that calculus should change.

This is spot on. I'll be dead honest, I love going to games, but I'm not going to go unless I think it's going to be a good game, or I can get in on the cheap (read: free). I'm not going to pay 20 bucks (tack on another 10 if you can't park for free and another amount if you intend to eat anything) to see duke get waxed or to wax someone else...it's just not worth it.

[allenmurray]

tack on another $10 if you can't park for free

Parking has gotten cheaper. Last year it cost a flat $10 to park at Duke South garage (on Trent Drive). This year, it is $1 an hour. I believe that is because last year that garage only serviced the outpatient clinics, which are not open on Saturday. However this year it is parking for visitors to the cancer center as well, and thus parking has to be hourly (it is still open for football parking as it is a huge garage). On Saturday I arrived 2 hours before game time to go to a tailgate, and when I left the garage my charge was $5. Oh, and I took the shuttle bus which picked me up right behind the garage and dropped me off in front of the chapel. So my actual walk to W-Wade was very short.

[allenmurray]

If you had unlimited money and resources, what would you do to get 33,941 in the seats for home games ,regardless of the W-L record and regardless of the opponent ?

Make basketball attendance for students partially contingent on football attendance. Open up some basketball seating to non-season ticket holders who are supporters of the football team.

[duke blue brewcrew]

Like most of you , I support Duke Student athletes whenever and however I can.

I 've given up on rational ,comprehensible explanations to give our players and staff.

Duke has a good coach , lots of 3 star players , was 2-0,had no competing games at UNC/State,perfect weather, and yet .....20,000 in WW.

It was more than humiliating --never mind the effect on recruits. So here's a delusional challenge:

If you had unlimited money and resources, what would you do to get 33,941 in the seats for home games ,regardless of the W-L record and regardless of the opponent ?

I've lived in Atlanta since '00. I still make it to at least 2 home games a year at WW. It's embarrassing to see how empty that stadium is. I see students all over campus on my way into the game who have zero interest in the fact that Duke is about to take the field. No matter how much I want to, it's not my place to publicly chastize them for a lack of effort and interest in a program that desperately needs their support. However, when Cut starts winning year-in, year-out and they begin to show up at games, part of me will be saying under my breath, "welcome bandwagoners" but that pain will be eased somewhat by the fact that Duke is playing infront of a full house...FINALLY!

[uh_no]

Make basketball attendance for students partially contingent on football attendance. Open up some basketball seating to non-season ticket holders who are supporters of the football team.

with the dwindling student attendance at bball games, i'm not entirely sure this would have the intended effect

[duke blue brewcrew]

This is spot on. I'll be dead honest, I love going to games, but I'm not going to go unless I think it's going to be a good game, or I can get in on the cheap (read: free). I'm not going to pay 20 bucks (tack on another 10 if you can't park for free and another amount if you intend to eat anything) to see duke get waxed or to wax someone else...it's just not worth it.

Real fans don't make excuses, they show up to the game and cheer on their team...period. I drive up from Atlanta at least twice a year to go to football games.

[uh_no]

Real fans don't make excuses, they show up to the game and cheer on their team...period. I drive up from Atlanta at least twice a year to go to football games.

Good for you.

I've decided I have other things I'd rather do that are more meaningful to me. If that makes me "not a true fan" so be it.

I drove to indy last year to watch us play MSU and louisville. why? out of some need to be a "true fan"? no! because I felt like "the team deserved it" or "I owe it to the team" no! I did it because I wanted a road trip and I knew it would produce some fun memories.

we can have "what makes a real fan" arguments until the heels come home, and guess what, someone is always more of a "real fan" than you are. so do what you want to, support the team how you feel is right, and leave others to their own ways. there is no need to one-up people's fanhood around here.

[PDDuke85]

(1) Free parking
(2) I would take 100 basketball season tix and give football season tix holders who attended every game (the prior year, since there is some season overlap) the opportunity to purchase 2 or 3 games for face value.
(3) Free tickets for local youth football leauges

The problem is Duke just doesn't have a recent history of football success, so the local support network just isn't there. Add to that fact that most alums move away from Durham after school, and most alums who come back to campus want to come back for a bball game not a football game, and it is going to be tough sledding.

It was tough to tell on TV, but it looked like a good turnout for the student section.

To take it a step further. Free tickets to local youth groups, free tickets to Ft Bragg, Seymour Johnson AFB, Camp LeJeune, free tickets to local church groups. I truly believe the local Durham community isn't interested in anything Duke. Build small pockets of fans. If not free, reduce ticket prices. Get bodies into the seats. I've yet to see an empty seat buy a hot dog. Get folks into the stadium and some might even come back again.

As a STH for our local Charleston , SC minor league hockey team, we enjoy free parking for all home games during the regular season. No perks won't keep me away from Duke football but a few perks (OK, free parking) would be gladly accepted and appreciated.

Build it and they will come. OK fine, but until it's built, Duke needs to be creative and grow the fan base while under construction.

Go Duke.

[6th Man]

I have always felt that Duke is at a huge disadvantage with football attendance. The alumni are always going to be mostly out of state. Not a big student body, even if you had 100% attendance from the students. Chapel Hill and Raleigh in close proximity. Wake Forest is in the same boat as Duke, but they have a better shot at the community of Winston-Salem, because they don't have N.C. State and UNC in their backyard. I think the only shot you have until the product gets a little bit better(even though we have had significant improvement) is make things as cheap as possible. At least that way on a beautiful Sat. you might appeal to families as a great way to go and have some family fun without breaking the bank. Maybe do some more community outreach programs for kids that can't afford or have the means to come to a game. At least that puts people in the stadium and serves as a great way to show kids college life and athletics. Maybe be more creative with intros and before game and halftime entertainment. (I don't think that necessarily brings people in, but at least it might spice things up a little). Unfortunatley it is mostly going to take wins.

[Dev11]

Make basketball attendance for students partially contingent on football attendance. Open up some basketball seating to non-season ticket holders who are supporters of the football team.

Student attendance isn't really the problem. Only about 1,200 students go to any given basketball game, so translated to football, that's barely filling one section of Wallace Wade. You need more general sports fans showing up to account for the small alumni base in the area.

One of the reasons that Duke doesn't build a new basketball stadium or at least make Cameron a lot bigger is that the size is right for the fan base, and it keeps ticket prices high. If Duke Basketball played in an arena like the Dean Dome, you'd see a lot of empty seats, particularly for the games where Duke is favored by double digits. Duke Football is, unfortunately, many levels of excitement lower than basketball (I speak as a big fan of both), so why should 30,000 show up for it?

Win and they'll come. Duke hasn't had a winning season since 1994.

[6th Man]

Like most of you , I support Duke Student athletes whenever and however I can.

I 've given up on rational ,comprehensible explanations to give our players and staff.

Duke has a good coach , lots of 3 star players , was 2-0,had no competing games at UNC/State,perfect weather, and yet .....20,000 in WW.

It was more than humiliating --never mind the effect on recruits. So here's a delusional challenge:

If you had unlimited money and resources, what would you do to get 33,941 in the seats for home games ,regardless of the W-L record and regardless of the opponent ?

Hmmm...I just wrote a post, but if you had unlimited money and resources...I'd get John Mellencamp or Kenny Chesney to do a halftime show. HA! I mention those two with their connections to Duke. Seems like Kenny Chesney and Cut are friends somehow. I say this jokingly, but taking the unlimited money and resources to an extreme!

[UrinalCake]

First off, when I was a student we would have been thrilled to have 20k fans in the stands. So don't overlook the progress that has been made both on the field and in the stands since Cutcliffe arrived.

I agree that attendance is pretty well correlated with winning. When the team is competitive for a consistent period of time, the fans will come.

I live in the area and probably go to one game every three or four years. It's just not enough of a draw. And the last time I went I was stopped at the gate and told to empty my diaper bag of the food I had packed for my then-three year old daughter. When I explained that she has a dairy allergy and can't eat any of the stadium food, I was told I'd have to buy her some French fries. So I haven't been back since then.

[jimsumner]

Duke did draw big crowds during the Spurrier years and Goldsmith's first year.

But it took awhile.

Duke drew as little as 12,400 for a home game against The Citadel in 1988, Spurrier's second season as head coach.

After going 7-3-1 in 1988, Duke drew a whopping 15,220 for the 1989 home opener, against Northwestern. And this is with one of the most exciting offensive minds in the game at the helm.

That famous win over Clemson? 22,600.

After that, crowds picked up, 38K against GT, a where-did-they-put-them-all 41,200 against NC State.

Same thing with 1994. A modest 21K for the home-and-season-opener against Maryland. But as that season progressed, more people showed up, 34k against Virginia, 40K against UNC, many of them Carolina fans, of course.

But there are some precedents for Duke drawing big crowds and we don't have to go back to Wade and Murray to find them.

Keep in mind that the Triangle has way more people now than it did when Spurrier was around. Duke has tried to make Duke the school of choice for non-aligned, new arrivals but it just hasn't worked with any consistent success. But in a community approaching 2 million, it seems like an effort worth making.

[Henderson]

Having a winning tradition puts a lot of butts into seats. It also helps to have a big alumni base within a 4 hour drive to the stadium and 25,000 undergraduates with nothing to do on Saturday afternoons. Duke is a small school, with a relatively small alumni base that isn't concentrated around Durham so much, and it doesn't have a winning football tradition.

Those cold hard facts are tough to face, and they create a bit of a chicken/egg problem.

I live almost 3000 miles away, but if someone will buy me a plane ticket and a room at the Washington Duke Inn (King, non-smoking), I'll buy the beer.

[Indoor66]

Having a winning tradition puts a lot of butts into seats. It also helps to have a big alumni base within a 4 hour drive to the stadium and 25,000 undergraduates with nothing to do on Saturday afternoons. Duke is a small school, with a relatively small alumni base that isn't concentrated around Durham so much, and it doesn't have a winning football tradition.

Those cold hard facts are tough to face, and they create a bit of a chicken/egg problem.

I live almost 3000 miles away, but if someone will buy me a plane ticket and a room at the Washington Duke Inn (King, non-smoking), I'll buy the beer.

Is your name Werber?

[ChillinDuke]

I live almost 3000 miles away, but if someone will buy me a plane ticket and a room at the Washington Duke Inn (King, non-smoking), I'll buy the beer.

Sounds like you'll buy the brewery.

- Chillin

[markbdevil]

I think TV is hurting attendance. I would never dream of missing a home game, but now you can sit at home and watch SC-GA or ALA-TEX A&M, or whatever SEC game of the week and also watch the Duke game on ESPN3. And lower ticket prices would help, who wants to buy 2 tickets to the Pitt game and also receive a special 'welcome to the ACC, Pitt' cup for $80? I know TV dictates kick off times, but more night games would attract more people. Duke should get some ideas from the Durham Bulls on how to be 'fan friendly'. Like someone mentioned earlier in this thread, offer free or reduced tickets to employees, local K-12 students who perform well in school, active or retired military, etc.... I email the Duke Athletic Department year after year with ideas on increasing attendance. Of course, winning some games helps too.
It's going to look really bad in a couple of years when WW is renovated with 40,000 seats, 20,000 of them empty.

[Sandman]

One possible way to increase attendance would be free tickets and transportation from the nearby(? - not sure of distances) military bases for military personnel. Many of them may enjoy the opportunity for a Saturday away from the base, and we would probably gain some long-time fans as a result. Of course, this would cost $$, and perhaps the loss of revenue make this a non-starter.

[killerleft]

Parking has gotten cheaper. Last year it cost a flat $10 to park at Duke South garage (on Trent Drive). This year, it is $1 an hour. I believe that is because last year that garage only serviced the outpatient clinics, which are not open on Saturday. However this year it is parking for visitors to the cancer center as well, and thus parking has to be hourly (it is still open for football parking as it is a huge garage). On Saturday I arrived 2 hours before game time to go to a tailgate, and when I left the garage my charge was $5. Oh, and I took the shuttle bus which picked me up right behind the garage and dropped me off in front of the chapel. So my actual walk to W-Wade was very short.

Ah, so that's why the parking is cheaper there! First game, I thought they'd forgotten to staff the entry gate until we exited. We were charged $5 also. GT game we arrived earlier and it cost $6. This is the third year we've used South, and the shuttle wait is seldom over 5 minutes.

[TruBlu]

When I moved to Atlanta in the early 80's, the home attendance for the Braves was typically in the 7,000 or 8,000 range. Look at them now. Winning makes a huge difference.

I concur with those above who have suggested reaching out to Church groups, youth groups, etc. with discounted group tickets.

As a formerly underpaid military enlisted person, I can promise that a lot of our local military folks would be appreciative. I know that I appreciate the heck out of them!

[sagegrouse]

One possible way to increase attendance would be free tickets and transportation from the nearby(? - not sure of distances) military bases for military personnel. Many of them may enjoy the opportunity for a Saturday away from the base, and we would probably gain some long-time fans as a result. Of course, this would cost $$, and perhaps the loss of revenue make this a non-starter.

Key facts from Army post overview: "Population: Fort Bragg serves a population of 52,280 active duty Soldiers; 12,624 Reserve Components and Temporary Duty students; 8,757 civilian employees; 3,516 Contractors; 62,962 active duty family members. There are 98,507 Army retirees and family members."

Lessee.... I believe this represents about 240,000 persons in the Fort Bragg community.

Distance: about 90 miles. Travel time: about 1:45:00.

Sounds like a plan.

(Warning. Back in the day in good old Charleston, The Citadel would give out free tickets to sailors. They would show up and always root for the other team.)

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

1. Raffle off four seats to an ACC-conference basketball game in Cameron to one ticket holder per game, must be present to win. Maybe do one such raffle per half.

2. Win home games. Consistently.

3. Send Nate James door to door.

[wilko]

1. Raffle off four seats to an ACC-conference basketball game in Cameron to one ticket holder per game, must be present to win.
Maybe do one such raffle per half. BANG

2. Win home games. Consistently. BANG

3. Send Nate James door to door. OH #$%^&*!!

All of these are options, but the best way to fill the seats is to win a few more home games and beat the occasional foe we should not beat.

[Duvall]

All of these are options, but the best way to fill the seats is to win a few more home games and beat the occasional foe we should not beat.

Yes, if only Duke were to post a 5-2 record at home with a thrilling upset of a hated rival. *Then* I bet the fans would turn out the next year.

[DueBlevil]

I will just reiterate what some others have said. First of all, there are PLENTY of potentially-interested people in the Triangle to sell-out Duke football games. Don't blame the students/nearby alternatives/small alumni base/embarrassment of a stadium/television schedule. Those are not the problem!! Those are red herrings. The ONLY thing holding our attendance down is that it just simply not a consistently entertaining experience. Sure, we play well sometimes, but those are against teams that, let's face it, rarely matter. Having one good game now and then isn't enough. It has to become the EXPECTATION that the game will probably be a decent one. We are simply not there yet.

[Henderson]

Parking prices? Ticket prices? You people are delusional. No one shows up for losing football, even with cheap tickets and parking, unless they have a team that has some history of winning, some grand tradition (e.g. Harvard/Yale) or they are affiliated with a military academy. It's cold, it's wet, or it's hot and unpleasant, and the views are better on TV. But who wants to even watch that if your team most often loses? Die hards do. But how do you create die hards? With cheap tickets and parking? Um, sorry. Not even the undergrads (who aren't that numerous) have a history of attending Duke games. Why not? Because it's not a winning program. You think you change that culture with parking and ticket prices? Please.

It's a tough egg to crack, and so many teams are in the same boat. The Duke Alumni Association counts 140,000 alums total http://www.dukealumni.com/career-network, and it has 1/4 the undergraduate population of big schools. Stanford has 211,000 alums and draw over 40,000 per game. 50% more attendance and 33% greater alumni base. Why? Because they've been winning, even with similar undergraduate populations (that and they probably have more alums within 1/2 day's drive of the stadium).

But bottom line: If you want attendance at your football games and be a small school, you have to win. We haven't done that. If you can't win, you at least have to have a huge and loyal alumni base + a large undergraduate population with a tradition of attending games. If you aren't a military academy, good luck.

Wouldn't it be nice if promotional gimmicks could solve our decades long attendance issues? The Athletic Department knows better, and y'all should too.

The bad thing about this it's a chicken/egg problem, and it's faced by most college football teams.

Whew, I'm exhausted from the rant. Bring it on.

[J.Blink]

I live in the area and probably go to one game every three or four years. It's just not enough of a draw. And the last time I went I was stopped at the gate and told to empty my diaper bag of the food I had packed for my then-three year old daughter. When I explained that she has a dairy allergy and can't eat any of the stadium food, I was told I'd have to buy her some French fries. So I haven't been back since then.

Wow, that is just utterly loathsome...

I noticed that on Saturday they are now putting tags on bags (purses, etc) at the front gate "so you won't need to get reinspected later." What does that even mean?

[J.Blink]

It's going to look really bad in a couple of years when WW is renovated with 40,000 seats, 20,000 of them empty.

I've never understood the desire to add more seating. With regularity Cameron is not filled (though this probably has as much to do with pricing as anything)--why should we expect WW to pull more fans? A true sellout in WW is a very rare thing--Alabama certainly showed what was possible, however!

[J.Blink]

But who wants to even watch that if your team most often loses? Die hards do. But how do you create die hards? With cheap tickets and parking? Um, sorry. Not even the undergrads (who aren't that numerous) have a history of attending Duke games. Why not? Because it's not a winning program.

How do you explain decreasing undergrad attendance at basketball games? You can't blame that one on a lack of a "winning program"!

I love Duke football. I've attended pretty much every home game since I moved back to Durham. I attend as many home basketball games as I can. Let's not pretend that my pursuits are anything but recreation, however. I've never cared for misplaced calls to support the athletes or esprit de corps. There are plenty of other Duke students to support, and plenty of other ways to support Duke as an institution, many of which are more meaningful than athletics! I don't mean that to knock athletics or athletes in any way, but they're just one part of Duke.

I will say (and I think this situation has improved markedly in recent years), if you do show up to WW, you do owe respect and support to the team.

[matt1]

Yes, if only Duke were to post a 5-2 record at home with a thrilling upset of a hated rival. *Then* I bet the fans would turn out the next year.

Exactly. We sold out against UNC last year and have had over 30,000 for some lackluster matchups, such as Florida International. I bet more fans come to watch us clinch bowl eligibility if that does happen and is at home.

[Henderson]

How do you explain decreasing undergrad attendance at basketball games?

High ticket prices, lack of promotional gimmicks and high parking prices?

Surely you aren't suggesting a lack of student involvement at MBB games are you?

I attended my fair share of Duke football games when I was an undergraduate. More than my share. But things haven't changed much in 30+ years. I will say the female cheerleaders look quite a bit younger. And when I realized the pretty ones were younger than my daughter, I felt kind of bad for thinking the things I was thinking.

[Henderson]

We sold out against UNC last year and have had over 30,000 for some lackluster matchups, such as Florida International. I bet more fans come to watch us clinch bowl eligibility if that does happen and is at home.

Bowl eligibility would help a lot. And a bowl win would fill more seats. Hence my point: You get butts in the seat by winning. All the other gimmicks are wasted effort.

Regarding the UNC game last year, I saw the photos of the colors in the stands, and you don't want to press that point. Be careful which "we" you are referring to. Carolina fans padded the numbers. Wasn't that kind of embarrassing?

Look, I'm a huge Duke fan. All sports. I follow them, I cheer for them, but I'm realistic. The way you get more fans to attend games is by WINNING. Nothing else works. And that's not something you do with a new promotional idea. It's a long slog of getting the right coaches, getting the right facilities, and recruiting the right players. There isn't a short term gimmick for getting enough fans to attend games. You do it by winning. And if you do it long enough and establish a tradition, you create a momentum that carries you through the lean years. You develop a culture of game attendance among alums and students.

When you have a small alumni base in the area, and you don't have a big student body from which to draw, it's more difficult. But it can be done. Not by going 50-50 most years with the losses coming to the teams that count and the wins coming vs. those who are weak.

[arnie]

Exactly. We sold out against UNC last year and have had over 30,000 for some lackluster matchups, such as Florida International. I bet more fans come to watch us clinch bowl eligibility if that does happen and is at home.

Of course the UNC sellout included 10k or more heels fans. I think once the improvements to WW are finished and the Alleva years of disregard for the program are forgotten, attendance will pick up. However, we can't afford more concession miscalculations (no water after 1st quarter on a hot day, 20 minute lines) and I do think the giveaways to kids are needed. Remember, it's only been a few years since we had the worst restrooms in college football. I just hope the Administration doesn't pull back their support.

[DueBlevil]

I just hope the Administration doesn't pull back their support.

I hope that all people involved understand that this situation took decades to produce and have the patience to put in the decades it's going to take to bring us up to being a respectable program. Decades. I think a decade with Cut will bring us to have fully completed improved facilities and improved recruits. It might take another decade to really build a reliable and steadfast fanbase for the program

[Indoor66]

Of course the UNC sellout included 10k or more heels fans. I think once the improvements to WW are finished and the Alleva years of disregard for the program are forgotten, attendance will pick up. However, we can't afford more concession miscalculations (no water after 1st quarter on a hot day, 20 minute lines) and I do think the giveaways to kids are needed. Remember, it's only been a few years since we had the worst restrooms in college football. I just hope the Administration doesn't pull back their support.

Blaming this on Alleva is MORE that revisionist history. You may dislike Alleva for whatever reason but please be intellectually honest.

[luvdahops]

Bowl eligibility would help a lot. And a bowl win would fill more seats. Hence my point: You get butts in the seat by winning. All the other gimmicks are wasted effort.

Regarding the UNC game last year, I saw the photos of the colors in the stands, and you don't want to press that point. Be careful which "we" you are referring to. Carolina fans padded the numbers. Wasn't that kind of embarrassing?

Look, I'm a huge Duke fan. All sports. I follow them, I cheer for them, but I'm realistic. The way you get more fans to attend games is by WINNING. Nothing else works. And that's not something you do with a new promotional idea. It's a long slog of getting the right coaches, getting the right facilities, and recruiting the right players. There isn't a short term gimmick for getting enough fans to attend games. You do it by winning. And if you do it long enough and establish a tradition, you create a momentum that carries you through the lean years. You develop a culture of game attendance among alums and students.

When you have a small alumni base in the area, and you don't have a big student body from which to draw, it's more difficult. But it can be done. Not by going 50-50 most years with the losses coming to the teams that count and the wins coming vs. those who are weak.

This is pretty much spot on from my experience as a longtime Northwestern season ticket holder (got my MBA there). NU is finally starting to see some upward momentum in attendance in Pat Fitzgerald's 8th year, after 5 straight bowl appearances and a 10-3 season last year, in which the Cats were a few plays away from an 11-1 regular season (rather than 9-3) and Big 10 Championship Game appearance.

After a brief spike in the mid 90s, average attendance had been mired in the ~25k range for most of the 2000s, and that was with a couple of sell outs each year (Ryan Field holds 47k) when opposing fans would fill half or more of the seats. After a few years of steady but incremental increases, it jumped to 35.7k last year, and will probably top 40k this year, given good crowds for the 2 non-conferences games so far and a home conference slate that includes Ohio State, Michigan and Michigan State. Some clever marketing and promotions ("Chicago's Big Ten Team") have helped, but the biggest driver has been the sense that Fitzgerald has built a consistent winner capable of challenging the Big 10's best.

I do think Northwestern has some natural advantages over Duke in terms of both FB competitiveness and attendance, but they are not dramatic, and there is no reason to believe Duke's experience over time can't be similar.

[J.Blink]

High ticket prices, lack of promotional gimmicks and high parking prices?

I agree that those are issues relating to overall attendance, though I would think the large buy-in (discouraging locals?) and grandfathered geriatric ticketholders also contribute to decreased attendance at SOME games. I don't mean that derogatorily at all, btw. My Duke prof grandfather--and season ticketholder for some 50+ years--kept his tickets until he passed away at age 93. He went to some games and gave away a lot of tickets, but sometimes the seats went empty.


Surely you aren't suggesting a lack of student involvement at MBB games are you?

Absolutely not. Everyone always feels that the generations that come after are worse...kids these days! So, I'm not citing a lack of student involvement, but rather, a lack of undergrads. uh_no (a recent grad, if I'm not mistaken) brought up the issue originally. You can also see it reflected in the increasing allocation of tickets given to grad students at the expense of undergrads. FormerDukeAthlete blames the nerdification of Duke, right?

[arnie]

Blaming this on Alleva is MORE that revisionist history. You may dislike Alleva for whatever reason but please be intellectually honest.

You may choose to disagree, but IMO Alleva did not push the administration to upgrade anything football related while he was AD. He seemed content to allow football to wither. If you're a big Alleva fan, so be it.

[OldPhiKap]

Blaming this on Alleva is MORE that revisionist history. You may dislike Alleva for whatever reason but please be intellectually honest.


You may choose to disagree, but IMO Alleva did not push the administration to upgrade anything football related while he was AD. He seemed content to allow football to wither. If you're a big Alleva fan, so be it.

Arnie is clearly correct to point out that Duke football was starved and abandoned for years. There are plenty to blame. Alleva may be one, or he may have been thwarted by others -- I surely do not know.

Indoor is right for the same reason -- this cannot be laid at the feet of one man.

For what it is worth, I was a Duke during the last two years of Steve Sloan and the first two years of Steve Spurrier. The incredible Tom Butters was our AD. And you know what? Football attendance stunk. My first year at Duke, we were in Playboy's 20 worst football teams in the country list. (Yes, I bought it for the damn article).

Good football attendance requires total school commitment, and a good coach. Even when Steve was at the helm, WW was not a feared place to play and was often less than full.

I would rather have a fully committed administration and a wonderful coach than an uncommitted administration and a wonderful coach. We now have the former, whereas we has the latter for the best part of four friggin' decades. No reason to worry about the past, build towards the future.

Go Duke, Go Cut, Go to Hell Carolina.

[uh_no]

I agree that those are issues relating to overall attendance, though I would think the large buy-in (discouraging locals?) and grandfathered geriatric ticketholders also contribute to decreased attendance at SOME games. I don't mean that derogatorily at all, btw. My Duke prof grandfather--and season ticketholder for some 50+ years--kept his tickets until he passed away at age 93. He went to some games and gave away a lot of tickets, but sometimes the seats went empty.



Absolutely not. Everyone always feels that the generations that come after are worse...kids these days! So, I'm not citing a lack of student involvement, but rather, a lack of undergrads. uh_no (a recent grad, if I'm not mistaken) brought up the issue originally. You can also see it reflected in the increasing allocation of tickets given to grad students at the expense of undergrads. FormerDukeAthlete blames the nerdification of Duke, right?

not only that, but they often sell the excess online...I bought tickets in the student section a few times last year...including senior night...given, I think they miscalculated the number of students to expect on senior night (badly)...but there was a chronicle article at the end of the 2011 school year, i believe, discussing the decreasing student numbers (which was widely reported on by the media).

It was trending down long before that, though. For the 07/08 year they had a "validation" system, where you had to register if you were going to the game with the expressed intent of selling off the excess tickets. It was canned about 10 games in due to students complaints and they would "sell out" of validations every game and people wouldn't show up.

anyway, i think the student involvment for the first two home games has been pretty good, reasonably full (and they didn't even have to give out free t shirts like they did for cut's first few years). Certainly it packs full when playing alabama or carolina not over thanksgiving...but the big areas are the two ends of the U and the 3 sections on the visitors side opposite the students that are near 100% empty.

even 100% ugrad attendance would not fill up WW, as others have pointed out...the gains are to be made elsewhere

[Kimist]

(Stay with me!)

I first started attending Duke football games in the early 60's BC ("before college"), usually with an annual bus trip via a church group from the central part of the state. The "big" game we attended was usually Clemson, or Ga Tech, or State, and sometimes unc. The stadium was always nearly full, with boisterous crowds on both sides. (Maybe it was those splinters??) The games were generally entertaining, and IIRC there was one game that ended with a Duke victory (Clemson?) of 3-2. If it was Homecoming Weekend, or even unc weekend, the living groups all had displays and even a parade or two existed. I thought it was cool to walk around campus and see all of the activities, to include the obligatory BBQ in "Duke Indoor Stadium."

After I matriculated, I generally attended all football games. Dare I even say it was virtually "expected"?? I do remember the "dress up" atmosphere, and nearly dying of heat-stroke in the midday September sun. (I still don't know how my date endured, as she was also fittingly overdressed.) I even remember the "shoestring play." The crowds were still pretty good, but shrinking. However, from 1966 season through the 1969 season, things went downhill.

Uncle Sam kept me for a few years, but starting in the mid 70's I've had season tickets. I've seen it all, good and bad.

(Still there??)

My gut feeling is that the empty seats in W Wade are a combination of numerous things. The primary one is that Duke has a very small local fan base, certainly nowhere near the size of unc or State or Clemson or Va Tech. While the program has improved greatly with the current coach/staff/players....it still has a way to go. But remember even when Spurrier was doing his magic, there were many empty seats in W Wade. Sure, getting a more competitive team would help....but not as much as you might think. There have been plenty of "freebies" handed out, to include tickets to Duke employees, youth of Durham, military groups, etc. But not much has improved. W Wade is still a "comfortable" facility. While I guess it is proper to toss tons of money to "upgrade" it with lots of bells & whistles, I personally don't feel that will accomplish the intended effect of filling up the stadium.

The Saturday college football environment I grew up with has changed. There are plenty of "better" games to see on TV. Some of the competition in W Wade has been sub par. Many of the games, even the most recent ones, have become of the "here we go again...." type. Homecoming weekend is hardly recognizable except for some old fossils, like myself, seen wandering around the campus. Is anything at all now done for "Carolina weekend"??

So, in summary: To have any prayer of filling up the seats, Duke must present a competitive team in an enjoyable environment. Even if/when that occurs, "the numbers" will always be against us.

Pardon the rambling.

"And have an A1 day."

k

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Attendance at ACC football games is down and has been down for several years (can't find the links for the articles I read on this subject).

Even The ACC men's basketball tournament attendance is down. (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9152625/ and other articles more recently)

Joe Ovies wrote about this very topic in the context of the state of North Carolina on Sept. 10. (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/football-attendance-issues-rooted-in-area-culture/12871803/)

While we may want to try to understand the phenomenon in terms of Duke alone, I think it's clear that lower attendance is a pattern or trend that goes far beyond who's showing up at Wallace Wade stadium to see the Blue Devils play. This change is not unlike the changes in attendance at movie theaters.

[devil84]

My mom (one of those older Iron Dukes) has trouble with the intense heat of the early games played in the hottest part of the day without any shade. Having been one of the people with issues during the incredibly hot games when the water ran out, she hasn't had much of a desire to go back. She buys a family pack of tickets and donates them back for the outreach program.

Another thing that the "aging" population might like is backs on the seats (and by "aging," I mean "anyone old enough to drive"). Oh, sure, you can bring your own or rent them at the stadium (yet more $$$), but other stadiums have backs on the seats included in the purchase price (REAL seats). Maybe if the family of 4 could rent them for something cheaper than $20, it would help. If not that, them maybe at least seniors can rent them for $1.

More night games would help for two reasons. One is lessening the heat issue, with it's corollary, the sunburn issue (exposed aluminum really reflects the sun's rays). The other is not chewing up the whole day for the local, casual fans. I've had to choose between the ball game or my children's school events/sports teams, or even getting necessary errands and the never-ending "honey-do" list done. If we could leave the house at 5:00pm for a 7:00pm tip-off (3:30 or so if we want to tailgate)...we'd go to A LOT more games! I understand TV, but most of these games are only on ESPN3. Are they really able to do two games in one day with one ESPN3 crew, thus dictating schedules?

My spouse (raised a tOSU fan) has memories of extremely hot Duke games in the blazing sun with no ability to escape the heat, coupled with horrid restrooms (which have been upgraded, but the memories remain), and long lines to buy overpriced, mediocre food but NO WATER which was sorely needed. All this to watch the a bad football team get waxed. Given a choice between that and a day of yard work and the ability to watch tOSU ("real football!") on TV, guess which wins. It's really, really hard to disagree with that logic!

Making game day a little cheaper would help, too. Those who aren't Duke alumni or lifelong fans just don't understand attending games where the team loses more often than not (yes, it's getting SO much better, but the recent Cut years are still an exception to the decades-old rule) AND paying $10 for parking, $20 for chair backs (for four), not being able to take drinks in, $12 or so for a round of water and needing 3-4 rounds to keep hydrated in the baking sun...even $24 for water for the family to remain minimally hydrated is excessive. Let us bring in an unopened quart/liter bottle of water per person, like many other arenas do (and baby food!). Let us bring the first round -- we'll still spend the same $24 (or more), but we'll have a snack with our next round of water. We'll feel better about what we purchased and come again.

The good news is that the last few games are played in the freezing cold. THEN we get the night games, after the temperature plummets. And there's PLENTY of cold water available!

I still love Duke football. Just wish I could convince the rest of my family to go with me. Money is part of it, but game day creature comforts are the biggest selling point. They're bearable if we're watching a great football game. But we're not (YET!!), so help us with the comfort of the game day experience.

[uh_no]

I understand TV, but most of these games are only on ESPN3. Are they really able to do two games in one day with one ESPN3 crew, thus dictating schedules?


no idea if they do two a days, but they dictate the schedule none the less.

[gep]

... Another thing that the "aging" population might like is backs on the seats (and by "aging," I mean "anyone old enough to drive"). Oh, sure, you can bring your own or rent them at the stadium (yet more $$$), but other stadiums have backs on the seats included in the purchase price (REAL seats). Maybe if the family of 4 could rent them for something cheaper than $20, it would help. If not that, them maybe at least seniors can rent them for $1.

I agree with this. Maybe the first "upgrade" to WW should be "real" seats with backs and arm-rests. Hard plastic, fiberglass, whatever that will withstand the weather. All in "Duke blue". Maybe lose some seating capacity, but at this point, a "full" house is better than a "sparse" house. Lets get there first, before "expanding".

[gep]

Attendance at ACC football games is down and has been down for several years (can't find the links for the articles I read on this subject).

Even The ACC men's basketball tournament attendance is down. (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9152625/ and other articles more recently)

Joe Ovies wrote about this very topic in the context of the state of North Carolina on Sept. 10. (http://www.wralsportsfan.com/football-attendance-issues-rooted-in-area-culture/12871803/)

While we may want to try to understand the phenomenon in terms of Duke alone, I think it's clear that lower attendance is a pattern or trend that goes far beyond who's showing up at Wallace Wade stadium to see the Blue Devils play. This change is not unlike the changes in attendance at movie theaters.

I read somewhere awhile ago that in the past, TV had to "create" a more interesting entertainment value to the viewer to increase viewership. Well, with the instant replays with 20+ camera angles, extreme slow-motion, overlaid yard markers, etc... now the TV value has increased to somewhat exceed "being there". So, now the emphasis is to create the TV experience in the live stadium. As others have said, if watching a game at home on the TV/computer is a "better" experience, attendance at games will suffer.

[Reilly]

... As others have said, if watching a game at home on the TV/computer is a "better" experience, attendance at games will suffer.

I think you're right (and appreciate the quote marks). Watching on TV is "better": it's cool on a hot day and warm on a cold day, there are lots of replays, the water's free, the alcohol doesn't have to be transported in a sock, there's no wait for the bathroom, there are other games to watch, there's no expense to park the car, the seat has a back to it .... and yet, we lose something by not gathering communally. A Duke friend was complaining his h.s.-age kid just wants to do what they all seem to want to do: play games "online" w/ friends .... which I took to mean not even being in the same room/basement as the friends. I'd have to imagine our brains fire differently or more intensely when there's actual human connection rather than virtual human connection. Other sports deserve attention, too, ... yet, football games are traditionally where many university communities at large choose to gather for some sort of connectedness. It's not really about the sport per se: it's the gathering, the band, the Fall air, a sense of community .... TV simulates that connectedness (and if you can watch a game on TV *and* discuss it in real-time with the fan "next to you" (on a message board)) then it's even more approaching the real thing ... yet it's still not the real thing, and we're losing something. There are lots of technological substitutes for human gathering -- we can watch or listen to Mass or church services rather than going; we can Skype our family rather than making the car trip -- yet while doing those things are nice and convenient and better than nothing and sometimes the only viable option, those things are just not "it", it seems to me.

[cf-62]

This thread is extremely interesting. Both the original question (which is a good and valid question), and the plethora of discussions that have occurred.
Lots of interesting theories (many quite accurate) on the challenges Duke Football, the business, faces.

I thought it would be fun to look at it as a business problem, which is really what the entire question is about – business. The business of Duke, Duke Football, and Duke Football game day.

Step 1 – Determine the Ultimate Goal (or goals)

It’s critical to realize the a “sold out stadium” isn’t necessarily the goal. Before we look at anything else, we have to understand how analysis – and actions – are going to bring us closer to our goal, be neutral, or take away from the goal.

Here is a swag at a few goals
1) Maximize game day, and game year – REVENUES (Ticket SALES, Parking and Concessions,etc.)
2) Increase Average Game attendance and overall attendance
3) Increase Iron Duke membership and pledges
4) Increase General Fund / School Pledges
5) Create a positive Brand Impression for Duke University and Duke Athletics
6) Improve image of Duke Football
7) Have an enjoyable environment for the majority of fans
8) Oh yeah, have an uber-majority of Duke fans in the game.

The things we’ve been talking about really go into the overall model. A classic economic model says that every decision should be made based on a prioritized goal list.

So if game time costs you 1,000 no-shows (2), but gets you on ESPN2 or ESPNU (5,6), then you’re going to take the 3:30PM game.

And, sure, GIVING away 3,000 tickets as a reward to local at-risk kids increases the attendance (2), but is probably only going to net ~$10,000 in game revenue (1). If the kids come in, buy a zuuzuu, and annoy all the Family plan ticket holders, that’s no more attendance this year, and probably not a renewal next year (7,1).

Similarly, reducing opponents’ ticket costs to fill their section (bonus concessions money, and likely some higher gate revenue) (1) wouldn’t be good if they end up showing up our own fans (5,6,7,8).

So the first rule is to prioritize the goals. My OPINION is that the highest priority goal is (1), with (6), (7), and (2) a clustered second, third, and fourth priority.

Once goals are set and prioritized, we can move on to the next step: Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of Duke Game Day.

[cf-62]

Post 2: Duke Football Game Day / Event Strengths

Understand that I am not going to analyze Duke Football (i.e. David Cutcliffe’s program), though I guarantee you he has one of these (or many many of these).
I’m only going to look at the Strengths of a Duke Football Game and Season as an event that people purchase and attend. I will follow the same philosophy with the weaknesses analysis:

Strengths of Duke Football Game Day / Season
* Ticket Cost (game by game and season ticket) -- I am comparing with competing LIKE events including NC State or UNC football, Hurricanes Hockey, Panthers Football, ACC Basketball, Hornets. The Family Four Pack is a great deal, either for game day or the season. And the mini-pack season ticket makes the cost for reserved seats ~$40 / ticket.
* Beautiful Stadium environment (Stadium surrounded by pines, walk in at the top of sunken stadium, Weather most of the year is awesome – a little hot in Sept, a little cold in Nov)
* Duke Campus – ‘nuff said
* Easy to get in and out driving -- again, comparing to other major sporting events, especially the 4 major comparable events mentioned above. This is NOT Parking, but rather the easy access to get into the area, and the ease / time it takes to leave the game.
* The Duke Brand – thanks to the school, the athletics department, and ESPN, the Duke brand is powerful, a polarizing force no doubt, but a strong brand
* The Cutcliffe Brand – to quote Lou Holtz – “There [Cutcliffe] is a FOOTBALL COACH!” The fact that his summers are spent with 2 of the glamour NFL quarterbacks, and his reputation as a quarterback savant make Duke football a potentially interesting team to watch.
* Other Duke sports – Having a powerful Olympic Sport program allows all kinds of cross-selling and branding
* Long term Duke Football History – the ignored elephant in the room. Before the BCS blew up the traditional bowl structure, I had a favorite college football trivia question I would use to stump people. Which 4 schools have played in all 4 major bowls (Cotton, Orange, Sugar, Rose)? Notre Dame, Alabama, Duke, and Army. Now the answer is 7 teams with Texas, Oklahoma, and Miami adding the Cotton and Rose (BCS Championship game) to their resumes.
Next up – what are the weaknesses facing Duke game day…

[cf-62]

Weaknesses of Duke Football Event / Game Day
As with the Strengths, this isn’t supposed to analyze the football team, but rather the game day as a consumer experience. Obviously, the success of the team comes into play.
* The Home Team is likely to lose, if the opponent is a "real team"
* A likely home team win is probably going to be against a severely inferior opponent
* Durham – I don’t want this to be interpreted as “Durham is bad” – rather it is the fact that Durham is a small to medium sized city, without the college town infrastructure NEAR the stadium
* Old (and bad) facilities -- I'll use this to encompass everything -- "old school" concessions, aluminum benches, pale yellow press box and murray building, track surrounding the field,
* Random tailgating culture -- just a walk down Bassett pre-game gives you an idea of this:

Cars 1 - 7, 2 parked, 5 absent, no tailgating
Cars 9-11 - three SUVs together, put together a grilling pit in spot 8 (no show), the women never entered the game. They seemed to have a great time all day
Around car 20 - older couple (60s) with some "special" tea
Cars 35 & 37 – unrelated couples each with a small tailgate out the back of their car, 1 with homemade sandwiches, the other with a Bo's Tailgate special.
Up on the hill, somebody was grilling in the Koskinen fieldhouse.
Over in Whitford (across from the baseball field), tailgating is MOSTLY limited to the 12 cars that park at the very end of the lot across from Coombs.
Duke also has the "purchased tailgating" tents set up in part of the Card lot.


Compare that to Chapel Hill, where -- and I'm REALLY SERIOUS HERE -- "I" have a tailgating spot where I hang out with the Phi Kap alums (I am neither a Tar Heel, nor a PhiKap, but I have many many UNC PhiKap friends). I ALWAYS know where to find their tailgate, whether it's the Duke game or we’re over in Chapel Hill on game day.
* Small alumni base -- somebody threw out the number 140,000, but really only ~six to twelve thousand local alums. Together WITH staff, that means a total of 24,000 adult potential fans. While Stanford (in business terms only has a marginally larger alumni base, they mostly live in the Bay, and Palo Alto has all kinds of college town / game day places around the football stadium.
* Small student body -- I'm not going to address whether students HAVE to go to games. I’m pointing out that even if they ALL go, it’s only a small bump in overall attendance, and there is little, if any increase in game day revenues. So while student attendance is important for “image of Duke football,” they don’t really play in the rest of the goals.
Compare that to tOSU, and use a 100% undergrad number. Instead of 20,000, we would have had about 23,000. There are almost 60,000 OSU students in Columbus, 44,000 of them undergrads. The "currently enrolled" student body would sell out WW – almost twice.

* Hostile locals -- if you're a student, you've glimpsed a small sampling. You walk into a burger joint, place your order, and the guy behind the counter says "you're wearing the wrong shirt. you can't get anything here." You bite your tongue about "fries being up," smile, and laugh at the "joke." But if you've been here longer, you know that the guy REALLY WISHES he could refuse to serve you. I dropped my Duke license plates because I got tired of cleaning spit off the cars. You just are NOT going to get someone who grew up with their 5th and 6th words being "boo duke" to go to a Duke game - EVER! Remember those 20,000 employees? Guess how many of them root for the light blue? Here's a hint - IT'S A LOT!!!!!!!!
* Really inadequate parking -- this goes hand in hand with the tailgaiting culture. In the triangle, there are 3 very distinct experiences at a football game:
- at State, the stadium is in the middle of nowhere, with thousands of parking spaces on all sides. It's easy to get in, find a spot within eyesight of the stadium, and setup your tailgate, whether a Bo-s super pack or a hibachi with fresh brats. Leaving is a bear, but you need the time to sober up anyway. Oh yeah, by the way, nobody shows up until the second quarter because they stay out drinking until game time, and it takes ~20 minutes to get in the stadium.
- at Carolina, it's a "Chapel Hill" event. Parking 1 - 2 miles away (or further) is no big deal. You find a spot with your set of friends (everyone from Pinehurst that went to school with you, your frat, your sorority, next door neighbors, etc.), and you ALWAYS park there. You know that the T/G has to end ~15-30 minutes before game time based on your walk, and you walk over. Most ticket holders are in their seats within 5 minutes of kickoff.
- at Duke, people complain about getting to school, then having to park a shuttle ride or 2 miles away. Because it's just a big giant parking lot, you park wherever you can get, eat some brought food with your family, and then make the long trek to the game. If you're late, you'll miss the actual close game (blowout one way or another is likely).
One note, the parking is a bad weakness, but it’s not causing people to NOT try a Duke Football game as AN event. You don’t know about the parking issues until you show up for a game. It is more a long-term, repeat buyers, season ticket upgrades, group upgrades, etc.

[cf-62]

Breaking Down the Goals, Strengths, Weaknesses , and Opportunities into Action

All of these are interesting in and of themselves, but to achieve the prioritized goals, you have to effect change in the 10,000 range, not the 200 – 2000 range that most of the ideas we’ve talked about in the thread can really affect.

A few hundred young Duke alums (families), a 1 – 2 thousand poor kids and employees, and an extra 2000 – 3000 students just doesn’t come close to a significantly fuller stadium.
How can we take actions?

I would break it down into distinct problem sets: Selling Tickets, and Driving Attendance
1) Selling Tickets
* Duke is very aggressive - and getting pretty good - at ticketing models designed to maximize revenue while maintaining premium seating for premium prices:

GA Four Pack
3 Game Mini-packs
Harris Teeter promotions
Group Sales
Season Tickets
Opponents' Tickets



It's a classic loyalty sale puzzle: Segment the market (Alums, Employees, Transplants, NFL fans, etc. etc. etc.) and create desired steps for each segment

For those that have never attended a game, get them to come to one game


For those that attend a game, convince to come back
For those that attend sporadically, convince to commit to a season
For those that commit to a season, increase the number of seats
For those at max, get them to upgrade seats (that's what the new suites are supposed to do)
For groups, get them to come more than once
For corporate groups, get them to buy season tickets


2) Driving Ticketed attendance - This is all about game day experience
Start with the atmosphere around campus, not just the stadium. One frustrating thing for non-Iron Duke fans (and there are a lot of them) is the lack of “close” and/or “convenient “ parking to the stadium, itself.
Coach Cut has done an AMAZING job at changing the way the campus thinks about football, but Duke is lagging on gameday as a whole.

The idea is that the day is spent at Duke. It just so happens that in the middle of the day, we’re all going to go in and watch a football game. It doesn’t mean the other things we do aren’t related, or tied to, the game. They are, but it’s about hanging out at Duke, not “going to the game.”

Dr. White – and his team – have truly addressed the GAME experience with the stadium upgrades. I look forward to seeing how it looks, and am really interested in what a field suite experience would be (personally).

I’d measure no-go’s and conduct surveys endlessly. I’d analyze section by section, group by group, and parking lot by parking lot. You can figure out why no-shows aren’t there, and do your best to address the issues, from heat to tailgating, schedule to geographical redistribution, even reallocation of where tickets that show up get placed…

I’m sorry to take up so much time with these posts, but it really is a fun question for a marketing geek.

[OldPhiKap]

I agree with this. Maybe the first "upgrade" to WW should be "real" seats with backs and arm-rests. Hard plastic, fiberglass, whatever that will withstand the weather. All in "Duke blue". Maybe lose some seating capacity, but at this point, a "full" house is better than a "sparse" house. Lets get there first, before "expanding".

Agree 100%. My back ain't what it used to be.

[Reilly]

... look at it as a business problem, which is really what the entire question is about – business. ...

I look forward to reading your posts. I guess I come at it from a different perspective. The in-vitro fertilization business is business. Babies can be conceived in a laboratory, and college football games can be watched on tv or electronic devices. There are, however, other ways.

[dukeofcalabash]

Until such time that Duke is a possible winner of every home game, I would recommend a gimmick:
1) Establish an attendance figure (let's say 20,000).
2) For every paying fan over that figure put a dollar in the pot.
3) Have a payout for all those thousands in the pot. It can be to one winner or spread over 2 or 3 winners.

Gimmicky? Yes, but it will fill the stadium until the quality of football gets there (may be needed even then).

[ChillinDuke]

Yes, if only Duke were to post a 5-2 record at home with a thrilling upset of a hated rival. *Then* I bet the fans would turn out the next year.

I assume this post is largely tongue in cheek.

The point remains we went 5-2 at home last year, I'm with you. But the competition was not especially impressive in arguably 4 of the 5 wins. And the 5th was the UNC game, and didn't we sell that one out anyway?

So many are clamoring for increased turnout at games, and I want that to happen just like the next Duke fan. But if the Duke men's basketball team hadn't been good enough to reach the NCAA Tournament in 20 years, would you blame the fanbase for not selling out even Cameron Indoor?

We have improved on the football field, no doubt. But there is clearly more progress that must be made before things like football sellouts will be the rule rather than the exception. For now, we should be clamoring harder for wins against teams the likes of Georgia Tech and not for our stadium selling out. That's how I see it.

- Chillin

[cf-62]

Post 2: Duke Football Game Day / Event Strengths

Understand that I am not going to analyze Duke Football (i.e. David Cutcliffe’s program), though I guarantee you he has one of these (or many many of these).
I’m only going to look at the Strengths of a Duke Football Game and Season as an event that people purchase and attend. I will follow the same philosophy with the weaknesses analysis:

Strengths of Duke Football Game Day / Season
* Ticket Cost (game by game and season ticket) -- I am comparing with competing LIKE events including NC State or UNC football, Hurricanes Hockey, Panthers Football, ACC Basketball, Hornets. The Family Four Pack is a great deal, either for game day or the season. And the mini-pack season ticket makes the cost for reserved seats ~$40 / ticket.
* Beautiful Stadium environment (Stadium surrounded by pines, walk in at the top of sunken stadium, Weather most of the year is awesome – a little hot in Sept, a little cold in Nov)
* Duke Campus – ‘nuff said
* Easy to get in and out driving -- again, comparing to other major sporting events, especially the 4 major comparable events mentioned above. This is NOT Parking, but rather the easy access to get into the area, and the ease / time it takes to leave the game.
* The Duke Brand – thanks to the school, the athletics department, and ESPN, the Duke brand is powerful, a polarizing force no doubt, but a strong brand
* The Cutcliffe Brand – to quote Lou Holtz – “There [Cutcliffe] is a FOOTBALL COACH!” The fact that his summers are spent with 2 of the glamour NFL quarterbacks, and his reputation as a quarterback savant make Duke football a potentially interesting team to watch.
* Other Duke sports – Having a powerful Olympic Sport program allows all kinds of cross-selling and branding
* Long term Duke Football History – the ignored elephant in the room. Before the BCS blew up the traditional bowl structure, I had a favorite college football trivia question I would use to stump people. Which 4 schools have played in all 4 major bowls (Cotton, Orange, Sugar, Rose)? Notre Dame, Alabama, Duke, and Army. Now the answer is 7 teams with Texas, Oklahoma, and Miami adding the Cotton and Rose (BCS Championship game) to their resumes.
Next up – what are the weaknesses facing Duke game day…

I'd be interested in hearing what others thing strengths of Duke Football GAMES as an event / consumer product are. Any additional thoughts?

[Reisen]

I’m sorry to take up so much time with these posts, but it really is a fun question for a marketing geek.

Haha, I haven't read all these yet (I will!), but I'm loving the SWOT analysis. Must be a Fuqua grad?

[CameronBornAndBred]

I agree with this. Maybe the first "upgrade" to WW should be "real" seats with backs and arm-rests. Hard plastic, fiberglass, whatever that will withstand the weather. All in "Duke blue". Maybe lose some seating capacity, but at this point, a "full" house is better than a "sparse" house. Lets get there first, before "expanding".
Quick note...I loathe those seats! Have you ever sat in Kenan? Not comfortable! Especially for someone tall like I am. I love being able to spread out a bit in Wade, not confined to exactly where our assigned seat is.

[Dukehky]

I don't see a fix here. Lots of the other posts are completely right. Duke's student body is small, it's unreasonable to think that more students are going to go to football than basketball games, ever. Duke's alumni base is increasingly moving North, they come back to basketball games like twice a year, they're not coming down for Duke football, even if Duke was awesome, the ACC is bad and would come down for like 1 game. The Triangle offers two "better" football experiences in UNC and State. Even if the product isn't as good sometimes, the atmosphere is more conducive to college football: tailgating, student bodies who care about it.

All of this COULD change with a ton of wins, but it will take a lot of time. I'd also like for WW to add backs to the seats, but that isn't going to improve the attendance that much. How many people are going to say, "Oh, hey!!! Wade added backs to the bleachers, now I'll go to the game." Not that many. Duke is just at an inherent disadvantage when it comes to filling up the football stadium. It's too big anyways and it would be a waste of money to expand it. Use the money planned on expanding it to making it nice. The only time I've seen it filled was for the Rolling Stones in 05.

I love going to Duke football games, but I like it because it reminds me of high school games. I know some of the kids on the team and winning would be a real treat. The only remedy is lots of wins. Nothing other than that is going to fill that stadium up.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Our conversation focuses on low football attendance at Duke, but the big picture is that attendance is slipping in across the conference and the nation. There is more at play than our team's record, the condition of the stadium or the game day experience. The trends underway suggest that attending in person is not as attractive as it used to be for many people. Technology and changes in society are making viewing in other environments attractive.

[cowetarock]

I'd be interested in hearing what others thing strengths of Duke Football GAMES as an event / consumer product are. Any additional thoughts?
When did West Point play in the Rose Bowl Game? They played Navy there in a regular season game,but other than 1918 I can find no record of any US Army team playing in the post season bowl game.The 1918 team was from Fort Lewis.

[cf-62]

When did West Point play in the Rose Bowl Game? They played Navy there in a regular season game,but other than 1918 I can find no record of any US Army team playing in the post season bowl game.The 1918 team was from Fort Lewis.

The 1918 game is considered to be the 4th Rose Bowl, even though it was called something different. I originally got the question from an original Genus Edition Trivial Pursuit card (which I have in a place of honor, obviously).

Here's the Wikipedia link (and as we know, Wikipedia is NEVER wrong) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_Rose_Bowl

[cf-62]

The 1918 game is considered to be the 4th Rose Bowl, even though it was called something different. I originally got the question from an original Genus Edition Trivial Pursuit card (which I have in a place of honor, obviously).

Here's the Wikipedia link (and as we know, Wikipedia is NEVER wrong) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_Rose_Bowl

Something of even more interest:

Until the BCS rolled along, having played in al 4 major bowls was an extremely rare honor. It shows just how powerful Duke football was from 1930 - 1966. Royalty - Notre Dame, Alabama, Duke.

Anyway, even with the Cotton Bowl having been diminished until it became the JJ Bowl, there are only 7 teams that can claim the quartet of Cotton, Sugar, Orange, and Rose. In contrast, even though it's been around much shorter period of time, when the Fiesta Bowl is substituted for the cotton bowl, 10 teams have played in the Fiesta, Orange, Sugar, and Rose.

Ours is a much more exclusive club.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I'd be interested in hearing what others thing strengths of Duke Football GAMES as an event / consumer product are. Any additional thoughts?
The game day family experience. Duke does a great job of making K-Ville an enjoyable place to be before the game, with music, face painting, fun things for the kids to do, sponsor tents to check out, etc. There is plenty to keep people entertained for a couple hours outside before the action inside gets under way.

[TruBlu]

Quick note...I loathe those seats! Have you ever sat in Kenan? Not comfortable! Especially for someone tall like I am. I love being able to spread out a bit in Wade, not confined to exactly where our assigned seat is.

I hope that you are only experiencing those Kenan seats once every other year.;)

[J.Blink]

Quick note...I loathe those seats! Have you ever sat in Kenan? Not comfortable! Especially for someone tall like I am. I love being able to spread out a bit in Wade, not confined to exactly where our assigned seat is.

I second that. I've only been to Kenan once and I sat in the Duke section (2004--it was a good game). The seats were incredibly uncomfortable. I'm not that tall--about 6'2--but I almost had to sit sideways for my knees to fit in the seat, thanks to the seatback jutting out in front of me. The only other college football stadiums I've been in are UVA, Wake, and State, and I don't remember being uncomfortable in any of them.

Even in WW (section 28) if somebody has seats with backs in front of me, it's tight for my knees. Fortunately (?) there are often empty seats in front of me.

I would be all for new seats if they were more comfortable and would have enough space, but I wouldn't count on that!

[DU82]

I second that. I've only been to Kenan once and I sat in the Duke section (2004--it was a good game). The seats were incredibly uncomfortable. I'm not that tall--about 6'2--but I almost had to sit sideways for my knees to fit in the seat, thanks to the seatback jutting out in front of me. The only other college football stadiums I've been in are UVA, Wake, and State, and I don't remember being uncomfortable in any of them.

Even in WW (section 28) if somebody has seats with backs in front of me, it's tight for my knees. Fortunately (?) there are often empty seats in front of me.

I would be all for new seats if they were more comfortable and would have enough space, but I wouldn't count on that!

Kenan is terrible with the seat backs squeezed in. It seems that they just had benches, same as Duke Stadium, and installed these later. Wake was much better, although I don't remember if they have bench backs. I haven't been to UVa in about 30 years, so I haven't seen the stadium since the massive upgrades. I'll report back after October 19th and our victory there.

Notre Dame doesn't seem to be doing poorly because of bench seating. Nor the upper level of Rupp Arena (although I believe that's scheduled to be changed soon.)

[Dopeshop]

The thread was intended mostly for venting ,but there are some thoughtful and well reasoned comments .


Who in the Duke hierarchy should take a look and how to get the posts to them ?

[sagegrouse]

The thread was intended mostly for venting ,but there are some thoughtful and well reasoned comments .


Who in the Duke hierarchy should take a look and how to get the posts to them ?

No need for special communications. Given the power and reach of DBR, I am confident that both AD Kevin White and President Richard Brodhead have minions monitoring the posts in near real time.

sage

[cowetarock]

Something of even more interest:

Until the BCS rolled along, having played in al 4 major bowls was an extremely rare honor. It shows just how powerful Duke football was from 1930 - 1966. Royalty - Notre Dame, Alabama, Duke.

Anyway, even with the Cotton Bowl having been diminished until it became the JJ Bowl, there are only 7 teams that can claim the quartet of Cotton, Sugar, Orange, and Rose. In contrast, even though it's been around much shorter period of time, when the Fiesta Bowl is substituted for the cotton bowl, 10 teams have played in the Fiesta, Orange, Sugar, and Rose.

Ours is a much more exclusive club.
I do not question the 1918 game being a Rose Bowl. I question giving credit to the US Military Academy at West Point for participating in the game which means that Army never played in the Rose Bowl. As I am fairly sure Fort Lewis never played in the Orange,Sugar and Cotton Bowls,do you agree the correct answer is six?

[DU82]

Post 2: Duke Football Game Day / Event Strengths

* Long term Duke Football History – the ignored elephant in the room. Before the BCS blew up the traditional bowl structure, I had a favorite college football trivia question I would use to stump people. Which 4 schools have played in all 4 major bowls (Cotton, Orange, Sugar, Rose)? Notre Dame, Alabama, Duke, and Army. Now the answer is 7 teams with Texas, Oklahoma, and Miami adding the Cotton and Rose (BCS Championship game) to their resumes.
/B]

So, what did Georgia Tech do to miss your list?

I looked this up back a few years, and there were four schools that WON all four major bowls (including the Ramblin' Wreck), and I think eight that were in all four, including Duke. This prior to the BCS error, I mean era.

I didn't have time to look at the full answers, just that GT was the first to win all four.

[Bob Green]

The games were generally entertaining, and IIRC there was one game that ended with a Duke victory (Clemson?) of 3-2.

Sorry, Duke lost. It was Clemson 3, Duke 2 on 10/16/1965:

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Duke.htm

[cf-62]

So, what did Georgia Tech do to miss your list?

I looked this up back a few years, and there were four schools that WON all four major bowls (including the Ramblin' Wreck), and I think eight that were in all four, including Duke. This prior to the BCS error, I mean era.

I didn't have time to look at the full answers, just that GT was the first to win all four.

Georgia Tech should definitely have been on the Trivial Pursuit card. A bad omission to be sure. Similarly, it's obvious that they saw Army-Navy in the 1918 Rose Bowl and didn't research it enough to determine that Army wasn't West Point.

I left them out of the modified list, because I compared the 10 teams that have played all BCS bowls against the Cotton Bowl SINCE 1984.

[fishindevil]

I am the target market the university seems to miss. My family bleeds dark blue even though none of us ever went to Duke. Growing up as a kid in Durham, I could not wait for fall Saturday afternoons at Wally Wade. I sat through the rain when Miami whipped us and still get chills remembering the great Clemson victory in 89. Duke used to cater to the Durham crowd and eventually the almighty dollar took over. As evidence of this thread and many others, you are not going to get the alumni support because that fan base is too small. There is a huge opportunity though to go after the local triangle market. How?

Parking / tailgating - I know, I know, been discussed many times but the university does not understand it is more then just having a short walk. I remember the public lots on Wannamaker and how much fun they were to walk through when the Clemson's of the world came to town. Me and a number of my friends would LOVE to come out on a lovely fall Saturday and enjoy a little community. To build our community though would require each of us to throw down on an Iron Dukes membership and now we are talking about an extra $200 plus a year and no chance of basketball tickets unless you really want to shell out some coin. Open the Wannamker and 751 lots back to the public and quit making us park across campus and walk through empty Iron Duke lots!! One thing I enjoy about State games are the number of families that tailgate together every year. Sorry, they are not showing up at Carter Findley for face painting and bouncy houses. The difference in Raleigh is there is a large alumni base to draw from and the families tailgating together are usually connected somehow to the university be it a father, mother etc that went to school at State. But they always come out and park together year after year. That is not going to happen at Duke. Duke does have the rare opportunity though of building a similar community made up of neighbors, coworkers, church members etc that WILL come out year after year and build our own community. Encourage the local community to come out for the whole experience. I don't care about reduced or free tickets if I cannot get the entire game day experience. It's not about free tickets, I promise. Of course winning brings them out but lets be real, football in the South is about the beautiful weather and the social event. We can all commit our sins together on Saturday and repent together in the pews on Sundays. The local crowd wants this bad!! Great food and fellowship covers up a lot of bad football. And by great food and fellowship, I mean cooking our own food and not shuffling through a tent eating ARA catering.

I am now 2 hours away and barely make it to Wade once a year. It just isn't fun and worth it anymore. Give me 5-7 fall Saturdays where I can gather with family and friends from across the state and I'm in. 5-7 Saturdays where that may be the only time all year I see these people and you got me. Walking the parking lots, meeting new people and counting the days when we will all be together again. There is a small group of loyals doing this now in the Iron Duke lots and that number would grow exponentially if there was somewhere for us common folk to go. A lot of us grew up at that stadium and would love to bring our families around to do the same. Think I'm wrong? Look around the stadium next time and see how much of the crowd is made up of people that got a great college education from one of the state supported institutions.

I am the target market and I am the one university continues to push away.

I got more suggestions but I tend to ramble so let's start with this.

[Kimist]

Sorry, Duke lost. It was Clemson 3, Duke 2 on 10/16/1965:

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Duke.htm

Oh well....half-credit???....I'm not always too clear on some things that happened 48 years ago.:rolleyes:

k

"And have an A1 day..."

[throatybeard]

I love how nine million people in this thread have made the critical insight that fans show up more for winning teams.

So much of this is culture, and I think that's what the above poster is getting at. I was at Mississippi State from 2004-05 to 2006-07. The teams were awful, all about 3-8, although one upset Florida. When you include graduate/professional enrollment, the school wasn't THAT much bigger than Duke, probably 16K to 12K. And MSU didn't start graduating that many people until the 1950s, so the total alumni base isn't that of Ohio State or Carolina. That entire state has less than 3M people and the fans are divided between three I-A FB programs, probably with OM taking the lead. It's in a county of about 40K people. North Carolina and Georgia have recently displaced Jersey out of the top ten, near 10M people apiece. So don't talk to me about demographics with Carolina and State here and there. Yeah, we're private and smaller, but there are so many people in the Triangle compared to the 125K or so (back then) in the three counties around Starkville.

It's about whether the people in our culture care about football or not. The ACC, at least the Big 4, have defined themselves as a basketball entity. Fine. Ok. Basketball, woo. But when 3-8 MSU can put 50K people in the seats in a three-horse town in a poor state and Duke struggles to do anything without visiting fans...it has to do with more than winning. It has to do with a critical mass of people who give a crap about football. One thing I love about Cut is he has tried to bring a little football culture to the program, but basically he's spitting into the wind. It used to exist at Duke from the 1930s to the 1960s, but it's gone.

I used to lament this. Now I'm like, this place is not supposed to revolve around sports. It's a research university. Would I like there to be more asses in seats at Wade? Sure, over and above Cameron even. Would I like Duke to go to a bowl every year? Sure. But it ain't happening. Would I like some AB Duke scholarship kid from Dubai to care as much about college sports as I did when I was 18? Sure. But it ain't happening.

So now we're cursed with having one of the best faculty in the country and not enough people at the Duke-NCCU game. Um, yeah. I'll take it. (And I like college FB).

No one on this board will ever agree with what I'm about to say, but I think there will be a time, well down the road but during some of our lifetimes, when Duke MBB is in the same spot. MBB has some advantages over FB: it takes fewer butts in seats and fewer blue-chips to make a great team. But at a certain point, the really tippy-top schools are going to have to decide what their priorities are. (This would occur after our dear Michael K has expired). The top 400 Universities and 100 Liberal Arts Colleges in this nation all have amazing faculty because the jobs are close to impossible to get. Universities that ill-informed snobs on this board turn their noses up at (exhibit A--Louisville) have amazing faculty.

In the interim, I'm all for paying Cut, and his assistants, from Iron Dukes coffers. But I look forward to a day when these schools decide that research and teaching are valued more than a 7-5 football season, and they start allocating money to that effect. If money in an era of cheap energy drove sports as the first consideration, forever, that would be one thing. But there will come a day when WVU at Baylor seems profligate. I think the Dukes will get out ahead, re-localize their sports, and prioritize the core missions of the institutions. We may not go full Chicago, but I look forward to a day when amateur sports are a healthy part of higher ed instead of an insane cancer.

In short, I wish Duke had preserved its football culture from the mid-20th century. But we didn't, and here we are. If we lose our basketball culture, I will live too. Sports are so peripheral to what the institution is supposed to be doing.

[dukeofcalabash]

I love how nine million people in this thread have made the critical insight that fans show up more for winning teams.

So much of this is culture, and I think that's what the above poster is getting at. I was at Mississippi State from 2004-05 to 2006-07. The teams were awful, all about 3-8, although one upset Florida. When you include graduate/professional enrollment, the school wasn't THAT much bigger than Duke, probably 16K to 12K. And MSU didn't start graduating that many people until the 1950s, so the total alumni base isn't that of Ohio State or Carolina. That entire state has less than 3M people and the fans are divided between three I-A FB programs, probably with OM taking the lead. It's in a county of about 40K people. North Carolina and Georgia have recently displaced Jersey out of the top ten, near 10M people apiece. So don't talk to me about demographics with Carolina and State here and there. Yeah, we're private and smaller, but there are so many people in the Triangle compared to the 125K or so (back then) in the three counties around Starkville.

It's about whether the people in our culture care about football or not. The ACC, at least the Big 4, have defined themselves as a basketball entity. Fine. Ok. Basketball, woo. But when 3-8 MSU can put 50K people in the seats in a three-horse town in a poor state and Duke struggles to do anything without visiting fans...it has to do with more than winning. It has to do with a critical mass of people who give a crap about football. One thing I love about Cut is he has tried to bring a little football culture to the program, but basically he's spitting into the wind. It used to exist at Duke from the 1930s to the 1960s, but it's gone.

I used to lament this. Now I'm like, this place is not supposed to revolve around sports. It's a research university. Would I like there to be more asses in seats at Wade? Sure, over and above Cameron even. Would I like Duke to go to a bowl every year? Sure. But it ain't happening. Would I like some AB Duke scholarship kid from Dubai to care as much about college sports as I did when I was 18? Sure. But it ain't happening.

So now we're cursed with having one of the best faculty in the country and not enough people at the Duke-NCCU game. Um, yeah. I'll take it. (And I like college FB).

No one on this board will ever agree with what I'm about to say, but I think there will be a time, well down the road but during some of our lifetimes, when Duke MBB is in the same spot. MBB has some advantages over FB: it takes fewer butts in seats and fewer blue-chips to make a great team. But at a certain point, the really tippy-top schools are going to have to decide what their priorities are. (This would occur after our dear Michael K has expired). The top 400 Universities and 100 Liberal Arts Colleges in this nation all have amazing faculty because the jobs are close to impossible to get. Universities that ill-informed snobs on this board turn their noses up at (exhibit A--Louisville) have amazing faculty.

In the interim, I'm all for paying Cut, and his assistants, from Iron Dukes coffers. But I look forward to a day when these schools decide that research and teaching are valued more than a 7-5 football season, and they start allocating money to that effect. If money in an era of cheap energy drove sports as the first consideration, forever, that would be one thing. But there will come a day when WVU at Baylor seems profligate. I think the Dukes will get out ahead, re-localize their sports, and prioritize the core missions of the institutions. We may not go full Chicago, but I look forward to a day when amateur sports are a healthy part of higher ed instead of an insane cancer.

In short, I wish Duke had preserved its football culture from the mid-20th century. But we didn't, and here we are. If we lose our basketball culture, I will live too. Sports are so peripheral to what the institution is supposed to be doing.

Great post! Yes, I agree appreciate how you view the purpose of Duke University. I see most colleges and universities in need of a "makeover" when it comes to priorities between athletics and academics. I see the purpose of the athletic programs as an outlet for the students, as a way for those students who are good enough to play sports (and accomplish the necessary academic requirements) to do so, and for the alumni and others to come together and root for their teams while enjoying an afternoon or night out. Those one and done athletes who are 'honing' their game should be allowed to go straight to a professional team for development, earn money, and be happy.

[TheDevilMadeMeDoIt]

Great post! Yes, I agree appreciate how you view the purpose of Duke University. I see most colleges and universities in need of a "makeover" when it comes to priorities between athletics and academics. I see the purpose of the athletic programs as an outlet for the students, as a way for those students who are good enough to play sports (and accomplish the necessary academic requirements) to do so, and for the alumni and others to come together and root for their teams while enjoying an afternoon or night out. Those one and done athletes who are 'honing' their game should be allowed to go straight to a professional team for development, earn money, and be happy.

In the perfect world I agree that colleges would never have anything other than club sports, but the world chose a different model 100 years ago. So to the question at hand, how to increase attendance at games. First I find it interesting this is one of the longest threads ever about football. The two obvious answers have been discussed, a better record and a better experience. Until then what to do? Leverage Duke's most popular asset with football season tickets. For every Iron Duke member at the level of $500, offer the right to purchase one regular season basketball home game ticket for every football season ticket sold. We have 17 home games in the upcoming basketball season, so if you sell 20,000 season football tickets to iron dukes, you would need 1176 single game basketball tickets per game. Let a computer choose the game, as all games are not equal. You will have a 1/17 chance of that ticket being to the UNC game. I know that not all season ticket holders will attend every game but it is a start. I live over 600 miles from Durham but I would do this deal, then I would return my tickets to the school to resell for any game I can't attend. For Coach Cut's first 3 years I bought season tickets. I got to know the folks who sat next to me, and every time I couldn't attend a game I sent them to my seat neighbors. She was a minister form eastern North Carolina and she and her family always had people who were thrilled to use my free tickets. So it can work and if done properly will put more people in the stadium. Until we are a football power we need creative solutions. And I do second the notion to put in real seats with seat backs and cup holders. But, make the seats big enough for the size people we are in the 21st century, not airplane size seats for 6 year old children.

[dukeofcalabash]

In the perfect world I agree that colleges would never have anything other than club sports, but the world chose a different model 100 years ago. So to the question at hand, how to increase attendance at games. First I find it interesting this is one of the longest threads ever about football. The two obvious answers have been discussed, a better record and a better experience. Until then what to do? Leverage Duke's most popular asset with football season tickets. For every Iron Duke member at the level of $500, offer the right to purchase one regular season basketball home game ticket for every football season ticket sold. We have 17 home games in the upcoming basketball season, so if you sell 20,000 season football tickets to iron dukes, you would need 1176 single game basketball tickets per game. Let a computer choose the game, as all games are not equal. You will have a 1/17 chance of that ticket being to the UNC game. I know that not all season ticket holders will attend every game but it is a start. I live over 600 miles from Durham but I would do this deal, then I would return my tickets to the school to resell for any game I can't attend. For Coach Cut's first 3 years I bought season tickets. I got to know the folks who sat next to me, and every time I couldn't attend a game I sent them to my seat neighbors. She was a minister form eastern North Carolina and she and her family always had people who were thrilled to use my free tickets. So it can work and if done properly will put more people in the stadium. Until we are a football power we need creative solutions. And I do second the notion to put in real seats with seat backs and cup holders. But, make the seats big enough for the size people we are in the 21st century, not airplane size seats for 6 year old children.

First of all, you will NEVER get the basketball program to give up that many seats to every single game. Secondly, if you go with my idea of a huge raffle for the attending, paying customers the winners will make enough to go online and purchase just about any ticket to a Duke home game with maybe the UNC game being the exception. I'm sure though that the winnings would purchase even one of those tickets on game day right outside the front doors. ;)

[TheDevilMadeMeDoIt]

First of all, you will NEVER get the basketball program to give up that many seats to every single game. Secondly, if you go with my idea of a huge raffle for the attending, paying customers the winners will make enough to go online and purchase just about any ticket to a Duke home game with maybe the UNC game being the exception. I'm sure though that the winnings would purchase even one of those tickets on game day right outside the front doors. ;)

Who controls the tickets, the Athletic Department or the basketball "program." I love Coach K but it is still "DUKE" basketball. The athletic department would have to do a cost/benefit analysis. Does 20,000 season football tickets make more money than 1700 individual game tickets. I don't know but a lottery at every football game is not as appealing to me as a chance to get a guaranteed ticket to a home basketball game.

[-jk]

I suspect "stadium level" giving to buy season tickets in Cameron out-ranks any football options. Currently it runs about $7k to qualify to buy a pair of seats in Cameron. And that pair of tickets is 2-4k.

-jk

[uh_no]

Who controls the tickets, the Athletic Department or the basketball "program." I love Coach K but it is still "DUKE" basketball. The athletic department would have to do a cost/benefit analysis. Does 20,000 season football tickets make more money than 1700 individual game tickets. I don't know but a lottery at every football game is not as appealing to me as a chance to get a guaranteed ticket to a home basketball game.

pretty sure what coach K wants coach K gets...the moving the grad students across the stadium is one example....

[devil84]

... We have 17 home games in the upcoming basketball season, so if you sell 20,000 season football tickets to iron dukes, you would need 1176 single game basketball tickets per game. ...

That's "only" about 15% of the non-student tickets. [Sarcasm font]No problem...[/Sarcasm font]

[Reilly]

George Will's column seems relevant to some points that throaty raised ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-college-football-is-out-of-bounds/2013/09/18/0cb37c38-1fb9-11e3-8459-657e0c72fec8_story.html?hpid=z2

[Henderson]

George Will's column seems relevant to some points that throaty raised ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-college-football-is-out-of-bounds/2013/09/18/0cb37c38-1fb9-11e3-8459-657e0c72fec8_story.html?hpid=z2

I've been a fan of George Will's writing for 30+ years and published some academic commentary about his views of government.

But he went to Trinity College, Oxford, and Princeton. WT* does he know about football in the 20th Century, let alone the 21st?

[dukeofcalabash]

Who controls the tickets, the Athletic Department or the basketball "program." I love Coach K but it is still "DUKE" basketball. The athletic department would have to do a cost/benefit analysis. Does 20,000 season football tickets make more money than 1700 individual game tickets. I don't know but a lottery at every football game is not as appealing to me as a chance to get a guaranteed ticket to a home basketball game.

The lottery doesn't sound very good either when you look at the odds, but many working people buy into it. I would say that 5-10,000 extra paying customers (most likely of non-Duke connections ) would come after a chance to win several thousand dollars as compared to a chance to win 1 Duke basketball seat. Two reasons, 1) give me the $$$ is what most of those people would say; and 2) no one likes to attend a ball game alone.

[devil84]

I have an idea: Food Trucks.

Food trucks are immensely popular in Durham. Why not have a food truck or two in the concourse? Might draw a few locals and would provide tasty options to the usual concession fare. I don't think they would draw away from the concessions much -- sometimes you just want that concession fare. The food trucks might draw in a few locals who enjoy the food truck menus. Park Baggettaboutit, Cafe Prost, the Humble Pig and/or Chirba Chirba (among many others) in the concourse and I bet I could get my family to go with me (given good weather).

Just a thought. May not be a good one, but it's a thought.

[DukeSean]

Granted, our problems aren't exactly for the same reasons, but even schools like FSU are having problems filling the stadium. As some have already stated, the stay-at-home-watch-on-TV experience has come a long way in recent years, and for many people has equaled or even exceeded game day experiences at the stadium. That is a significant problem for many sports teams, college and pro

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/60331/fsu-grapples-with-scheduling-dilemmas

[johnb]

In the perfect world I agree that colleges would never have anything other than club sports, but the world chose a different model 100 years ago. ....

Perfect is hard to come by.

If we just selected our basketball team based on who happened to be on campus, I'm not sure we'd be all that interested in watching the equivalent of IM sports.

The need for successful teams drives admissions and the campus to consider students who would otherwise not be considered. This has its downsides. but, we've had a bunch of examples of kids who took the opportunity and ran with it. And even in regards to places with less of an academic focus, it's been terrific for a broader variety of students to get access to institutions that are largely built on public dollars and which are expected to provide service to a broad swath of people.

And related to the above, but a little different, is the reality that college sports has specifically been an entry point for a couple of generations of African-American students. By showing they can do the work (and they by and large do it), they've helped admissions departments re-think admissions criteria to include less traditional students. Obviously, this is true for non-athlete underrepresented minorities as well, but the athletes are more visible...

[cf-62]

I have an idea: Food Trucks.

Food trucks are immensely popular in Durham. Why not have a food truck or two in the concourse? Might draw a few locals and would provide tasty options to the usual concession fare. I don't think they would draw away from the concessions much -- sometimes you just want that concession fare. The food trucks might draw in a few locals who enjoy the food truck menus. Park Baggettaboutit, Cafe Prost, the Humble Pig and/or Chirba Chirba (among many others) in the concourse and I bet I could get my family to go with me (given good weather).

Just a thought. May not be a good one, but it's a thought.

Devil84, if you like food trucks, this might be interesting. (personal preference, Chirba Chirba has to be the biggest waste of $8 on the planet, but I digress).

One of the issues, of course, is the exorbitant cost of Food Truck food (fast food at restaurant prices as I think about it), but the Durham Food Truck scene IS a strength of the area, and I think it would make for an interesting opportunity.

A few things (tieing back to my business posts earlier). Duke IS interested in turning your single season ticket into 4 season tickets, both for revenue and fans in seats. There are much more efficient ways to try to convince you to bring your family to the game. A Food Truck AS the reason your family comes? That won't last long - might not even last until halftime. If your family doesn't enjoy THE DAY and/or the GAME, then their desire to go to the game is directly tied to WHICH food truck is going to be there, and whether they're even interested in food truck fare on that day.

Some Genius, Though

However, if you made it a promotion as a Durham Food Truck RODEO alongside the football event, there could be some interesting changes. If you can get it to a full-fledged Durham Food Truck Rodeo event (20, 30, 40 trucks - not 3 or 4 for concessions), then you could get a couple thousand people into the mix. Now you're talking.

"Food Truck Rodeo
Admission: $20
What you get for admission - $10 credit for use at the trucks, ticket to Duke football game.
Bring in the OktoberFest trucks, too, and you've got a Durham / Duke tailgate.

unlike the rodeos at Durham Central Park, the idea is to promote the event and the day, not just the area - so by simply charging admission with a credit, you can hone in on the 4,000 - 7,000 people that might find it worthwhile.

[Reilly]

Maybe monster food trucks with big tires that crush things? The game might have to be moved to Sunday, Sunday, Sunday ....

[Merlindevildog91]

Granted, our problems aren't exactly for the same reasons, but even schools like FSU are having problems filling the stadium. As some have already stated, the stay-at-home-watch-on-TV experience has come a long way in recent years, and for many people has equaled or even exceeded game day experiences at the stadium. That is a significant problem for many sports teams, college and pro

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/60331/fsu-grapples-with-scheduling-dilemmas

I was leaving work the other day in southside VA and heard a radio commercial for "limited" season tickets for VT football. It said season tickets were available for the first time in 14 years.

So it isn't just us.

(Another point, while I'm at it. It's hard to make group plans, like for our church youth group, if we can't tell people what time a game is going to be, what time we will leave and come back, etc., until basically the Sunday before the game. It is tough enough for the two of us to get there.)

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

It would get a lot more fannies into the actual SEATS if they simply raised the wall all around the stadium three or four feet. Half the people at the game are standing around outside the entire time and just watching from there. I don't know of another venue where you can watch from outside.
Love, Ima

PS As for the lack of student interest, Duke has markedly changed the type of student it recruits. I would imagine that football is foreign to most of them.

[Reilly]

... I don't know of another venue where you can watch from outside....

Wallace Wade Stadium is so old it is new again. Look at Camden Yards (flag court above RF wall; new CF bar) or the Nationals Stadium (CF bar; views from many concourses). It seems the modern trend involves stadiums where folks can move, gather (open endzone bars in NFL stadiums w/ game views), and yet still see the game from a non-seat location (if they bother to look up from their phone or from the person they are talking to).

Imagine if Duke football became super popular: we could sell out the stadium, and the new luxury boxes to come, etc... and also sell standing room only tix for folks who would do nothing but roam the new concourse.

[Buckeye Devil]

Granted, our problems aren't exactly for the same reasons, but even schools like FSU are having problems filling the stadium. As some have already stated, the stay-at-home-watch-on-TV experience has come a long way in recent years, and for many people has equaled or even exceeded game day experiences at the stadium. That is a significant problem for many sports teams, college and pro

http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/60331/fsu-grapples-with-scheduling-dilemmas

I don't know the price to a Duke home football game at WW and granted comparing Duke football to Ohio State football isn't really fair. But as a former recipient of OSU Alumni football tickets, it frankly got to the point where it wasn't normally feasible to shell out $150 for a pair of tickets, pay another $10 to park a mile+ from the 'Shoe, cover gas costs, a program, and at least one meal out to see the Buckeyes play a MAC team or worse. I never had a ticket to even a sub-par conference game. And now I think the ticket price is $85 + processing. So yes, watching from home is a very attractive option even for premier games.

With that said, if I lived in NC I would love to go to a Duke football game simply because I love college football and the college football experience (yes I have attended games in other venues than OSU). I think that is a huge difference. In Ohio football is king. Yes we have successful college basketball programs but Ohio is first a football state. NC I assume is different. I would go to a game for the sake of going to a game but the typical fan in NC might not do so. It makes it tough to fill the seats when a team has not enjoyed success in recent years and the fans don't live and breathe football.

[throatybeard]

Wallace Wade Stadium is so old it is new again. Look at Camden Yards (flag court above RF wall; new CF bar) or the Nationals Stadium (CF bar; views from many concourses). It seems the modern trend involves stadiums where folks can move, gather (open endzone bars in NFL stadiums w/ game views), and yet still see the game from a non-seat location (if they bother to look up from their phone or from the person they are talking to).

Imagine if Duke football became super popular: we could sell out the stadium, and the new luxury boxes to come, etc... and also sell standing room only tix for folks who would do nothing but roam the new concourse.

This. I go to, I don't know, half a dozen Cardinals games a year, so say about 35 games since I got here. I might have spent a grand total of fifteen innings in my seat, if I even had a seat. Most of the time I have a SR ticket, unless there's a seat that's cheaper than SR.

I pay attention to the game, but I don't have the patience to sit still for hours at a time for anything that doesn't involve classical music. I walk around, look at TVs, pop into the team store for the air conditioning, and most of all, get beveraged at that bar above left field. Once in a while I'll buy a club seat off someone who has an extra if the price is right. Even then, I don't sit in the seat. I frolic in the air-conditioned club area.

It's not 1947 anymore. Hell, the Rams have even put RedZone in all over the stadium, so you can keep up with everyone else during the game.

[devil84]

A few things (tieing back to my business posts earlier). Duke IS interested in turning your single season ticket into 4 season tickets, both for revenue and fans in seats. There are much more efficient ways to try to convince you to bring your family to the game. A Food Truck AS the reason your family comes? That won't last long - might not even last until halftime. If your family doesn't enjoy THE DAY and/or the GAME, then their desire to go to the game is directly tied to WHICH food truck is going to be there, and whether they're even interested in food truck fare on that day.

For some people, they have to see the new upgrades. The restrooms are now clean and modern, there are more people in the stands, and there's a pretty good football team on the field. If the food truck is the carrot that gets us there, we can see the game day improvements. The last time I conned my better-half into going, it was the second year of the Blue Devil Alley. A number of people I know haven't been to Wallace Wade since before Roof was a coach. For those people, if there's a gimmick that can lure them back, they will probably enjoy the new game day experience.


However, if you made it a promotion as a Durham Food Truck RODEO alongside the football event, there could be some interesting changes. If you can get it to a full-fledged Durham Food Truck Rodeo event (20, 30, 40 trucks - not 3 or 4 for concessions), then you could get a couple thousand people into the mix. Now you're talking.

"Food Truck Rodeo
Admission: $20
What you get for admission - $10 credit for use at the trucks, ticket to Duke football game.
Bring in the OktoberFest trucks, too, and you've got a Durham / Duke tailgate.

unlike the rodeos at Durham Central Park, the idea is to promote the event and the day, not just the area - so by simply charging admission with a credit, you can hone in on the 4,000 - 7,000 people that might find it worthwhile.

Now there's the genius idea. I'm fairly certain that a food truck rodeo would draw quite a number of people, accounting for the fact that many of the attendees of the usual local rodeos are Carolina and State fans, there would still be quite a few who wouldn't mind taking in a football game in between visiting food trucks.

Sure, food trucks aren't going to help bring down the total cost of game day, which is one of my complaints. But, food trucks do have some good food I can't get anywhere else (Chirba Chirba may not be the best example, as Able Bar & Grill has some pretty impressive dumplings). But given a choice between a lukewarm, small, several-hour-old pizza or some cool food truck fare, I'll take the food truck fare. Either way, I'm out $8. And it's a gimmick that can get butts in the seats.

And if we find out we like the new and improved Duke football game day, we might be back for some of those $8 pizzas, even if there aren't food trucks.

[airowe]

Discounted tickets for Durham residents, especially for the Bull City Gridiron Classic, would be a good way to reach out to the community. Tons of Durhamites go to Durham Bulls games, and I bet half of them don't care about the action on the diamond. But it's a fun way to spend $8 a person for a few hours. Sell tickets to Durham residents for $15 a pop or $15 with entrance to the Blue Devil Club party before the game. You'll convert a few people each week to care about football just by accident.

[killerleft]

Discounted tickets for Durham residents, especially for the Bull City Gridiron Classic, would be a good way to reach out to the community. Tons of Durhamites go to Durham Bulls games, and I bet half of them don't care about the action on the diamond. But it's a fun way to spend $8 a person for a few hours. Sell tickets to Durham residents for $15 a pop or $15 with entrance to the Blue Devil Club party before the game. You'll convert a few people each week to care about football just by accident.

Family Plan tickets average out to a smidge over $10 a game now, and they don't do DNA testing.:). You gotta buy at least four to get that price, though.

[throatybeard]

Yo, what happened with the Bulls this year? I heard they were in the playoffs.

[Lid]

Yo, what happened with the Bulls this year? I heard they were in the playoffs.

Lost in the National Championship game.

[cf-62]

Discounted tickets for Durham residents, especially for the Bull City Gridiron Classic, would be a good way to reach out to the community. Tons of Durhamites go to Durham Bulls games, and I bet half of them don't care about the action on the diamond. But it's a fun way to spend $8 a person for a few hours. Sell tickets to Durham residents for $15 a pop or $15 with entrance to the Blue Devil Club party before the game. You'll convert a few people each week to care about football just by accident.

A Durham Resident plan - interesting thought.

I wanted to point out that everyone keeps bringing up the Bulls as a model for us to follow (for skyboxes, family friendliness, reaching out to Durham, etc.).

The capacity of the DPAB is 10,000. That's less than half of the attendance numbers we're here dissecting. Similarly to "increasing student body" turnout, getting an extra 500 Dermites to show up to games isn't going to make a difference. Changing the scope of what is seen, and what is happening, has to happen in quintuple digits.

[TruBlu]

Some people show up for Durham Bulls games partially because they sell beer at the park, and for the party atmosphere. (Speaking for myself in years gone by.)

Although they cannot sell alcoholic beverages at Duke football games, it would be nice if there was some kind of concession stand(s) outside of Wallace Wade Stadium, especially for pregame. This would help folks who travel long distances, come on the spur of the moment, or are too lazy to tailgate.

An improvement in pregame entertainment might also help.

An improvement of in-game entertainment (winning) would help.

[airowe]

Some people show up for Durham Bulls games partially because they sell beer at the park, and for the party atmosphere. (Speaking for myself in years gone by.)

Although they cannot sell alcoholic beverages at Duke football games, it would be nice if there was some kind of concession stand(s) outside of Wallace Wade Stadium, especially for pregame. This would help folks who travel long distances, come on the spur of the moment, or are too lazy to tailgate.

An improvement in pregame entertainment might also help.

An improvement of in-game entertainment (winning) would help.

There is a pregame party. $40 for food + alcohol, $20 for food and nonalcoholic drinks.

https://tkt.xosn.com/tickets/TicketHome.dbml?SPID=2805&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4200&_MODE_=PERFORMERCATEGORY&SALE_TKT_PERFORMER_ID=111579&SALE_TKT_SALE_CATEGORIES_ID=119140

[jimsumner]

Some people show up for Durham Bulls games partially because they sell beer at the park, and for the party atmosphere. (Speaking for myself in years gone by.)

Although they cannot sell alcoholic beverages at Duke football games, it would be nice if there was some kind of concession stand(s) outside of Wallace Wade Stadium, especially for pregame. This would help folks who travel long distances, come on the spur of the moment, or are too lazy to tailgate.

An improvement in pregame entertainment might also help.

An improvement of in-game entertainment (winning) would help.

Most of the people who go to Bulls games have little or no emotional investment in who wins the game and many don't even bother paying attention to what's happening on the field. It's an outdoor bar, a cheap date, a place to let the kids run free, a place to see or be seen. The baseball game is almost tangential.

Not sure that's possible at Wade or even desirable. I'm just not sure that's a model for going forward.

[sagegrouse]

Most of the people who go to Bulls games have little or no emotional investment in who wins the game and many don't even bother paying attention to what's happening on the field. It's an outdoor bar, a cheap date, a place to let the kids run free, a place to see or be seen. The baseball game is almost tangential.

Not sure that's possible at Wade or even desirable. I'm just not sure that's a model for going forward.

You have just described every major league baseball park I've been to in the last decade. Except for the "cheap date" part. Baseball owns summer, but it's more an outing than a sporting event. The kids are cute and run around. The families are fun to watch. There are cute girls (and guys, I guess). Modern ballparks have microbrews and interesting food. The game is secondary. In both Washington and Ballmer, there are two kinds of fans: those who come for batting practice and leave in the fifth inning, and those who come in the third inning or so and stay to the end.

sagegrouse

[Reilly]

... In both Washington and Ballmer, there are two kinds of fans: those who come for batting practice and leave in the fifth inning, and those who come in the third inning or so and stay to the end. ...

I agree with your larger point about the atmospherics of a MLB game. And I know the above quoted excerpt was for effect, but it's not totally true. Washington, I've found, is a more superficial experience (go figure). Baltimore, in the late 1990s, when folks had money, and DC didn't have a team, was a much more superficial baseball experience -- drawing as it did 25% of its fanbase from the DC area. Now, however, in Baltimore, it's almost as though the fans at any given game are much more the self-selected purists, paying close attention.

As for Jim's point about how hardly anybody at a Bulls game is there for the game and whether such an atmosphere could or should be replicated at Wallace Wade ... I have no problems bringing in those folks. I'd think the new plaza after renovations is supposed to cater to them. Have every undergrad there looking to being seen, gabbing on their phone or texting, what have you ... and then when the game turns into a barnburner like Saturday, they may pay attention.

[cf-62]

As for Jim's point about how hardly anybody at a Bulls game is there for the game and whether such an atmosphere could or should be replicated at Wallace Wade ... I have no problems bringing in those folks. I'd think the new plaza after renovations is supposed to cater to them. Have every undergrad there looking to being seen, gabbing on their phone or texting, what have you ... and then when the game turns into a barnburner like Saturday, they may pay attention.

Again, if BOTH of these things happened, we could get from 22,000 to ~24,000. That's not going to have ANY impact on the aspects of the game attendance we've discussed. The stands will still be quite empty.

[Reilly]

... The stands will still be quite empty.

Yes, the stands in the endzone will still be quite empty. I read that Saturday's announced crowd was 22K. Also read http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=167&f=1093&t=11984891 that only a couple dozen students were there at any given time. If you added "just" 1K or 2K students, however, that would ratchet up the noise and fun a fair amount, may even spur the team on just that much more to bring about a 3-point swing, and it starts a winning streak, and the locals take notice and start coming again ... It'd be a start, and to that end, I hope the renovated stadium and plaza become a destination, even for those not emotionally invested in the game. Wallace Wade can be where Duke (and, to an extent, Durham) gathers. I'd imagine a lot of CFB attenance is driven by the atmospherics -- not everybody is there to watch the punters warm up or dissect LB play -- but rather b/c it's where folks in a certain community, w/ certain ties, gather to be one. This week is Homecoming -- let's hope a lot of those with ties to Duke (current students and past; friends; employees) choose to gather.

[CameronBornAndBred]

This week is Homecoming -- let's hope a lot of those with ties to Duke (current students and past; friends; employees) choose to gather.
Homecoming and employee day. The weather is looking good, I expect to see WW pretty full. I wish Duke would not combine the two events, so they have two chances to expose the atmosphere of game day to folks who might not otherwise come, but it will make for a good crowd. These are the days that Duke needs to capture new fans and new ticket buyers for the next season, or even the next game. Put on a good show, and fill the empty seats.
The conversation in this thread has gone on for years. The short answer, as everyone knows, is obviously winning, but even that won't fill all the seats. With so many games on TV, Duke is fighting the paradox of having TV money vs live attendees. It's hard when the couch is so comfy and the beer is in the fridge. We've all had good suggestions, Duke has been working hard to implement solid answers, but it is truly a monumental task. It may be a dream that never gets fulfilled. But I'll still be there to watch regardless, as will many of you. We might not have the crowds we dream of seeing, but at least we get to look back on some fun games and say "I was there".

[uh_no]

that only a couple dozen students were there at any given time. If you added "just" 1K or 2K students, however, that would ratchet up the noise and fun a fair amount

lets be fair, the student section was reasonably filled out (not packed by any means, but not noticeably empty near the start of the game) for the first two games....and the weather saturday was not conducive to a large student section...it certainly factored in my decision to not come over at halftime

[Reilly]

lets be fair, the student section was reasonably filled out (not packed by any means, but not noticeably empty near the start of the game) for the first two games....and the weather saturday was not conducive to a large student section...it certainly factored in my decision to not come over at halftime

I wasn't talking about the first two games. I was talking about Saturday, and linked to the reports of what folks reported ("less than 20 at kick off" ... "never more than 30-40" ... "disappointing"), and talking about what a gain in students might get us as compared to what happened Saturday. From my experience, it actually can be fun going to a game in the rain. I hope you choose to attend this coming Saturday no matter the weather and that it'll be a fun time for you.

[throatybeard]

You have just described every major league baseball park I've been to in the last decade. Except for the "cheap date" part. Baseball owns summer, but it's more an outing than a sporting event. The kids are cute and run around. The families are fun to watch. There are cute girls (and guys, I guess). Modern ballparks have microbrews and interesting food. The game is secondary. In both Washington and Ballmer, there are two kinds of fans: those who come for batting practice and leave in the fifth inning, and those who come in the third inning or so and stay to the end.

sagegrouse

Come to Saint Louis. It's not like that here.

[flyingdutchdevil]

You have just described every major league baseball park I've been to in the last decade. Except for the "cheap date" part. Baseball owns summer, but it's more an outing than a sporting event. The kids are cute and run around. The families are fun to watch. There are cute girls (and guys, I guess). Modern ballparks have microbrews and interesting food. The game is secondary. In both Washington and Ballmer, there are two kinds of fans: those who come for batting practice and leave in the fifth inning, and those who come in the third inning or so and stay to the end.

sagegrouse

Welcome to the Red Sox. And Boston - despite a plethora of amazing sports - is a baseball town first and foremost.

[killerleft]

Homecoming and employee day. The weather is looking good, I expect to see WW pretty full. I wish Duke would not combine the two events, so they have two chances to expose the atmosphere of game day to folks who might not otherwise come, but it will make for a good crowd. These are the days that Duke needs to capture new fans and new ticket buyers for the next season, or even the next game. Put on a good show, and fill the empty seats.
The conversation in this thread has gone on for years. The short answer, as everyone knows, is obviously winning, but even that won't fill all the seats. With so many games on TV, Duke is fighting the paradox of having TV money vs live attendees. It's hard when the couch is so comfy and the beer is in the fridge. We've all had good suggestions, Duke has been working hard to implement solid answers, but it is truly a monumental task. It may be a dream that never gets fulfilled. But I'll still be there to watch regardless, as will many of you. We might not have the crowds we dream of seeing, but at least we get to look back on some fun games and say "I was there".

Yep, as Devil in the Blue Dress said, even the very successful programs are having trouble keeping people in the seats. There may be a point when the TV Monster is going to threaten the event itself.

Less than 20 years ago, Duke Football proved that winning was indeed the tonic needed to bring out the crowds. I just don't know if that will work anymore. For many of us, we know that being there is the ultimate experience. TV is a most inferior way to watch football and basketball, but that is only obvious to those who invest the time to come out and personally support the team.

Back in the mid-eighties, a friend of mine was very excited to finally be going to Atlanta to see the Braves play. He and his family were great TV fans. When they got back, my friend told me he wasn't going to be returning for more live games. It just wasn't the same without instant replay, it rained one night, the food was too costly, etc. At the time I thought he was not representative of the average fan, but it sure seems like he'd be the norm now.

Too bad. It really is a bonus to be able to see EVERYTHING on the field unfold before you, and be part of the action, not an electronic bystander. Example: from our seats in Sec. 28-29 (we moved around a bit), part of the Jamison Crowder punt return excitement was watching the play unfold. It was apparent that he had a chance to have a great runback, and from the first cutback toward our corner of the field, we could tell who had a chance to get him and who didn't. Then the little step-back juke... As you said, CB&B, I were there, and it was special watching Mr. Crowder find the scat-gear it took to get him around the corner for the tightrope-walk right in front of me and down the sideline for the TD. We didn't see it two seconds later, we didn't see it in tunnel-vision, and we didn't watch the reaction of the team on a replay. I high-fived several people I didn't know a couple times during the game, and the whole experience was so much better having been there. And, then, lo and behold, we got to see it on replay as well (scoreboard replay could use some work, but that's alright).

[Dev11]

For many of us, we know that being there is the ultimate experience. TV is a most inferior way to watch football and basketball, but that is only obvious to those who invest the time to come out and personally support the team.

Back in the mid-eighties, a friend of mine was very excited to finally be going to Atlanta to see the Braves play. He and his family were great TV fans. When they got back, my friend told me he wasn't going to be returning for more live games. It just wasn't the same without instant replay, it rained one night, the food was too costly, etc. At the time I thought he was not representative of the average fan, but it sure seems like he'd be the norm now.

I'd say that given the cost of attending the event, your friend is no longer the minority, and I would dispute the first sentence in your quote above, particularly for football, which is perfectly made for tv. The first down lines, the stats, the replays from every conceivable angle, the play diagramming, all of that makes the home experience awesome and just isn't available in person. Factor in the additional cost of being there, and football at home seems like a way better deal.

I don't love being field level at football games, too, since it's harder to see action that isn't happening near you, and that is a key negative of Wallace Wade Stadium, although they're fixing that by removing the track.

[uh_no]

I wasn't talking about the first two games. I was talking about Saturday, and linked to the reports of what folks reported ("less than 20 at kick off" ... "never more than 30-40" ... "disappointing"), and talking about what a gain in students might get us as compared to what happened Saturday. From my experience, it actually can be fun going to a game in the rain. I hope you choose to attend this coming Saturday no matter the weather and that it'll be a fun time for you.

Please. I don't need to be chided about game attendance in poor weather. I have been to quite a few football games in the rain...sometimes I come, sometimes I don't feel like it....and seeing as I had just done a 56 mile bike ride in hillsborough, the last thing I wanted was to sit out in the rain.

It's silly to pretend that it doesn't factor into a large segment of students' decisions on whether to come out or not. Its an unfortunate reality, and chances are, I probably would have come out if I hadn't been out riding earlier. Turned out to be a shootout, and I hope some students watched it on TV and thought "that would be cool to have been at"

If I'll be honest, as unfortunate as it is, I think Connette behind center is a detractor for some people...seeing a duke qb throw the kind of interceptions we saw brings up some BAD memories, and frankly we've been spoiled the past 4 years with great passers....it's hard to get excited to get out to a game when we have to wonder whether every passing play is going to doom us.

[throatybeard]

Back in the mid-eighties, a friend of mine was very excited to finally be going to Atlanta to see the Braves play. He and his family were great TV fans. When they got back, my friend told me he wasn't going to be returning for more live games. It just wasn't the same without instant replay, it rained one night, the food was too costly, etc. At the time I thought he was not representative of the average fan, but it sure seems like he'd be the norm now.

That has to be at least partly a function of what a steaming pile of poo Atlanta-Fulton County stadium was. I mean, wow. Just terrible. Those cookie-cutter multipurpose stadiums were all bad. But name a worse one. The Vet, maybe. That's it. At least it was grass and not astroturf, but in the 1980s, they hadn't hired the guy who fixed the field. (I forget his name, but he came in around the time the team got good). It was routinely the worst grass surface in the league.

I was a kid, so I loved going. This usually happened one of two ways. In the mid and late 1980s, the team was horrible, and all the games were on Turner, so attendance was often lousy. So the team started giving out two free upper deck tickets to kids who got straight As, and you could buy additional adjacent seats for $5. Then later on, about 1989, my parents started working concessions to raise money for our school. They'd let you take 10%. So I saw a lot of games in 1989. I saw Oddibe McDowell, y'all. In person.

It was not particularly easy to get from MARTA to the old stadium, and this being Atlanta, everyone drove anyway. By the 1980s, Atlanta was already a cancerous blob of sprawl development. But what was amazing was how bad the traffic was for games that only had eight or ten thousand people at them. It would frequently take an hour to get out of there after the game. The sight lines were awful from just about everywhere. It was even worse for football. Some people were sad when they tore that heap down, seeing as how it was where Aaron and Murphy and Niekro had played. Not me.

Some people in Saint Louis say they liked Busch II better than Busch III. I think they're nuts.

[killerleft]

I'd say that given the cost of attending the event, your friend is no longer the minority, and I would dispute the first sentence in your quote above, particularly for football, which is perfectly made for tv. The first down lines, the stats, the replays from every conceivable angle, the play diagramming, all of that makes the home experience awesome and just isn't available in person. Factor in the additional cost of being there, and football at home seems like a way better deal.

I don't love being field level at football games, too, since it's harder to see action that isn't happening near you, and that is a key negative of Wallace Wade Stadium, although they're fixing that by removing the track.

To each his own. Surely you can get a bunch of views (I do when I get home). But football is NOT better on TV than seeing a game live. You get a small piece of the action as it happens, except for the token shot of a kick-off, maybe, before the camera zooms in for a shot of 15 yards of the field. You often don't know if a defender is close enough to hit somebody 'til he flies into the screen and makes the tackle. What you've actually done is become used to the mini-action in front of you and said to yourself, "I'll take it." Well, yeah, because most times you can't be there, anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy watching sports on TV. It beats all heck out of listening to a game. You get used to the way a game is done and mostly don't feel cheated because they'll come up with a view soon enough that shows you what actually transpired. I like it. But live action is, well, like being there. And I rarely don't know the yardage. I can most often predict the first downs even when only inches make the difference. But then, I've been watching live action for 50 years and paid attention to such things. We all get mesmerized when you've got an announcer to tell you what you need to know. But if you see lots of games live, you already know most of it, because it pays to pay attention.

I don't fault anyone who doesn't care to learn the art of seeing sports live, or would rather watch on TV. And there are many who can't physically get to games. I just feel kinda sad that more Duke fans don't come and watch live, because a full stadium of screaming Duke fans would be a very nice sight to see. And rare, but hopefully not extinct.

Tenpin bowling is a great TV sport, by the way. You don't miss a thing.

[killerleft]

That has to be at least partly a function of what a steaming pile of poo Atlanta-Fulton County stadium was. I mean, wow. Just terrible. Those cookie-cutter multipurpose stadiums were all bad. But name a worse one. The Vet, maybe. That's it. At least it was grass and not astroturf, but in the 1980s, they hadn't hired the guy who fixed the field. (I forget his name, but he came in around the time the team got good). It was routinely the worst grass surface in the league.

I was a kid, so I loved going. This usually happened one of two ways. In the mid and late 1980s, the team was horrible, and all the games were on Turner, so attendance was often lousy. So the team started giving out two free upper deck tickets to kids who got straight As, and you could buy additional adjacent seats for $5. Then later on, about 1989, my parents started working concessions to raise money for our school. They'd let you take 10%. So I saw a lot of games in 1989. I saw Oddibe McDowell, y'all. In person.

It was not particularly easy to get from MARTA to the old stadium, and this being Atlanta, everyone drove anyway. By the 1980s, Atlanta was already a cancerous blob of sprawl development. But what was amazing was how bad the traffic was for games that only had eight or ten thousand people at them. It would frequently take an hour to get out of there after the game. The sight lines were awful from just about everywhere. It was even worse for football. Some people were sad when they tore that heap down, seeing as how it was where Aaron and Murphy and Niekro had played. Not me.

Some people in Saint Louis say they liked Busch II better than Busch III. I think they're nuts.

I never watched a baseball game there. Football was bad enough. Seats in the endzone, 75 yards from the field, ugh. And, yes, traffic was horrible. But Deion Sanders ran back a punt for a touchdown, so we salvaged something from the situation. He was running away from us, darn it.

[cf-62]

Regardless of which side of the argument you personally land on, the simple matter is that watching a game on TV is certainly a viable alternative to watching the game in person.

There are pros and cons for both (I'm assuming that the consumer likes doing both equally well, and would make their decision for one or the other based on extenuating circumstances)

* A premium game is on at the same time
* It's raining
* Got chores to do at the house
* It's 73 and sunny
* You have a craving for Bo's and Beer

Are there ways to change the game day experience on site, so that some of the reasons to watch football on tv can be replicated in stadium?

[Wander]

It's probably instructive to look at schools that are similar to Duke. Vanderbilt and Northwestern don't have the crowds of a Clemson or Alabama or whatever, but they do both have significantly higher attendance figures than Duke (Stanford is the other school that immediately jumps to mind as being similar to Duke, but their football team and program is so far ahead of us that it's probably not a useful comparison). Given that, I do think we can get more people in the stands, even after taking the factors listed by other posters on this thread into account.

[cf-62]

It's probably instructive to look at schools that are similar to Duke. Vanderbilt and Northwestern don't have the crowds of a Clemson or Alabama or whatever, but they do both have significantly higher attendance figures than Duke (Stanford is the other school that immediately jumps to mind as being similar to Duke, but their football team and program is so far ahead of us that it's probably not a useful comparison). Given that, I do think we can get more people in the stands, even after taking the factors listed by other posters on this thread into account.

I came across this article last night:

http://www.gomightycard.com/2011/01/how-to-fill-the-stadium-in-8-easy-steps.html

Essentially, what this boils down to is something like this:

LSU, Alabama, Ohio State, Wisconsin, ... can fill any size stadium for any game in any weather (NOTE: by full, I mean over 60,000 fans).
The rest of us cannot, and probably will never be able to

[Duvall]

It's probably instructive to look at schools that are similar to Duke. Vanderbilt and Northwestern don't have the crowds of a Clemson or Alabama or whatever, but they do both have significantly higher attendance figures than Duke.

I think population might be a confounding factor there...

[uh_no]

Regardless of which side of the argument you personally land on, the simple matter is that watching a game on TV is certainly a viable alternative to watching the game in person.

There are pros and cons for both (I'm assuming that the consumer likes doing both equally well, and would make their decision for one or the other based on extenuating circumstances)

* A premium game is on at the same time
* It's raining
* Got chores to do at the house
* It's 73 and sunny
* You have a craving for Bo's and Beer

Are there ways to change the game day experience on site, so that some of the reasons to watch football on tv can be replicated in stadium?

uhhhh....why is that an extenuating circumstance? that's like a perpetual circumstance

[DukeSean]

This is a bit of a moot point for WW considering the plans already set into motion, but has anyone come across renovations of college football stadiums that actually removed a significant number of seats? If the overall trend is declining attendance, why fight it? A renovation that made every seat a great seat, maximized the game-day experience, and would lead to a more packed house (even with fewer seats) could be addition by subtraction.

[Duvall]

This is a bit of a moot point for WW considering the plans already set into motion, but has anyone come across renovations of college football stadiums that actually removed a significant number of seats? If the overall trend is declining attendance, why fight it? A renovation that made every seat a great seat, maximized the game-day experience, and would lead to a more packed house (even with fewer seats) could be addition by subtraction.

I hate to mention That School, but Stanford's 2006 stadium renovation/replacement reduced their capacity from 85,000 to 50,000.

[Wander]

LSU, Alabama, Ohio State, Wisconsin, ... can fill any size stadium for any game in any weather (NOTE: by full, I mean over 60,000 fans).
The rest of us cannot, and probably will never be able to

Sure, but that was my whole point. It's not realistic to think we're going to have the crowd of Ohio State or LSU, but there's no reason we can't have the crowd of Vanderbilt or Northwestern.



I think population might be a confounding factor there...

Population of what? The triangle/Nashville and Duke/Vanderbilt are very similar in population. I guess Tennessee is farther away from Vandy than Carolina or NCSU is from Duke, but there's also the Titans in town. It's not obvious which school "should" have more attendance, but overall I still say it's the most similar school you're going to find out there. Chicago is a different situation of course.

Point is, I think it's fair to say that we can get more people by winning more or using some of the ideas people have suggested here, even after taking into account being a private school, not having an established football culture, etc etc.

[Sandman]

Even with successful campaigns to put more fans in WW, there will often still be many games with lots of empty seats.

Empty seats are painfully visible in the current WW setup, where they show up as white "nothingness". If the WW renovations replace benches with seats and the colors of those seats and the flooring blend together with fans' colors, at least empty seats won't be so glaringly obvious on TV. Many stadiums have attendance in the range of Duke games, but on TV they are not as obvious.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Are there ways to change the game day experience on site, so that some of the reasons to watch football on tv can be replicated in stadium?

You can always do as we do at our tailgate, where we have the game on TV for those that choose to come for the festivities but don't want feel like going in. (Which is a nice option on a hot or rainy day.) Some go in for a half only, some go in for all 4 quarters, some never leave the tents. But they all contribute to the game day festivities.

[cf-62]

You can always do as we do at our tailgate, where we have the game on TV for those that choose to come for the festivities but don't want feel like going in. (Which is a nice option on a hot or rainy day.) Some go in for a half only, some go in for all 4 quarters, some never leave the tents. But they all contribute to the game day festivities.

I've seen families like that CBandB. I don't quite get it. Either we're going to the game, or we're not. To each his own.

What I meant, though, was offering ACTUAL game attendees something from TV land that being live at a game - WHILE IN THE STADIUM. Let me give an example.

A high speed wi-fi network (either free or pay), coupled with different special apps / pages
* Advanced stats for the game
* highlights of concurrent games
* live feed of the concurrent games

Fan-I-am (which I personally don't like) is a start, but other than game time, it's really useless. I'm better off with WatchESPN and Twitter.

[Reilly]

We should do like Nascar and let folks listen in to the coach chatter via headsets ... make it available to season ticket holders who pass some sort of loyalty test (so they won't tip the other team ...)

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

We should do like Nascar and let folks listen in to the coach chatter via headsets ... make it available to season ticket holders who pass some sort of loyalty test (so they won't tip the other team ...)
Considering the lengths to which the staff goes to block any view of their boards on the sidelines, I'd be surprised if Coach Cutcliffe would go for having folks listen in to what's going through the headsets.

[formerdukeathlete]

This is a bit of a moot point for WW considering the plans already set into motion, but has anyone come across renovations of college football stadiums that actually removed a significant number of seats? If the overall trend is declining attendance, why fight it? A renovation that made every seat a great seat, maximized the game-day experience, and would lead to a more packed house (even with fewer seats) could be addition by subtraction.

There is no way to renovate Wade when removing the track without adding a good number of seats, that is, if we want to renovate in anyway which makes sense and leaves us with a stadium which looks like a college football stadium. The only way to reduce capacity at Duke as we get rid fo the track and move seats closer to the field would be to bulldoze the whole thing and start over. That would be significantly, significantly more costly that what is contemplated. In our renovation to start this offseason, Wade may lose about 3k in seats along the concourse due to handicap accessibility, but then we will add about 6 to 7k when lowering the field. We will add another 1k in the tower, and then we will be about 38k before closing in the endzone. The endzone seating when closing in the open end is now able to be scaled back such that the elevation of the seating to be added will be consistent with the elevation of the bowl, slightly lower, actually. Then the whole stadium is just under 44k.

Playing say .600 ball, with teams like UNC, NC State, ECU, a big time out of conference opponent such as Alabama, and we can sell more than 44k seats.

[Dev11]

Playing say .600 ball, with teams like UNC, NC State, ECU, a big time out of conference opponent such as Alabama, and we can sell more than 44k seats.

Let's talk about this.

First, Duke doesn't play ECU. Duke plays, on average, one home game per year against another in-school state (I'm not counting Central because their fan base does not seem big enough to make a 'local' impact). We only play NC State at home once every 12 years or so with the new schedule, and we play both Wake and UNC at home or away each year. I'd say the biggest opponent fan bump comes from VT, whom we also play at home the years we play UNC and Wake at home, and Clemson, who we similarly now play only once every 12 years at home. Wake does not produce capacity crowds at Wade, although UNC does (sold out last year).

OK, big-time opponents like Alabama. Here are the announced future non-con home opponents, going through 2018, per fbschedules.com (http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa/acc/duke-blue-devils.php), which does a great job of compiling future opponent news: Kansas, Elon, Tulane, Northwestern, Army, Central (multiple times). I'd say that Cutcliffe/Dr. White have prioritized trying to get to more bowl games over pulling in marquee opponents. I don't expect any of these games to bring anything more than a nominal opponent fan base, and some actually worse (I would imagine that Kansas fans are waiting for a Duke-KU game at Cameron Indoor to make the trek to Durham).

So, 44k seats? Per Wikipedia (which is always right), here are the 2012 Northwestern Wildcats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Northwestern_Wildcats_football_team) with attendance figures. This team was supposed to be good, and rightfully so, they went 9-3 in the regular season, only losing to Penn State, Michigan, and Nebraska (the Clemsons and Virginia Techs of the B1G). Their home attendance figures: 32K, 29K, 33K, 47K (Nebraska's first game at NU as a member of the B1G), 44K (Iowa?), 32K. Looking at prior years, Michigan also produces a 47K figure (capacity crowd for Ryan Field).

Basically, we're looking to become Northwestern, but as has been pointed out here, Northwestern is at an attendance advantage in that it is right next to the biggest city in its conference's footprint (stop telling me that New York is in the B1G, I'm not listening), so there are countless alumni of schools like Michigan, Michigan State, Illinois, etc in the area, particularly the wealthy north suburbs of Chicago where NU is located. ACC alumni are not as centrally located in the Triangle as B1G alumni are in Chicago, although I don't want to delve into alumni population figures.

I'd say that expecting a .600 Duke Football team (averaging 7 wins a year) to get over 40K per game is wishful thinking at best. A renovation is going to look nice, and it will be good to not have a freaking track in our football stadium anymore, but we need to be realistic about expectations. That said, I am excited about the renovations, because having the stadium and facilities look more grown-up helps recruiting a fair amount. We want kids to visit Duke, tour the football facility, and think, "this isn't so different from going to NC State/UVA/Wake Forest/Georgia Tech, and the education here is worth more."

[formerdukeathlete]

Let's talk about this.

First, Duke doesn't play ECU. Duke plays, on average, one home game per year against another in-school state (I'm not counting Central because their fan base does not seem big enough to make a 'local' impact). We only play NC State at home once every 12 years or so with the new schedule, and we play both Wake and UNC at home or away each year. I'd say the biggest opponent fan bump comes from VT, whom we also play at home the years we play UNC and Wake at home, and Clemson, who we similarly now play only once every 12 years at home. Wake does not produce capacity crowds at Wade, although UNC does (sold out last year).

OK, big-time opponents like Alabama. Here are the announced future non-con home opponents, going through 2018, per fbschedules.com (http://www.fbschedules.com/ncaa/acc/duke-blue-devils.php), which does a great job of compiling future opponent news: Kansas, Elon, Tulane, Northwestern, Army, Central (multiple times). I'd say that Cutcliffe/Dr. White have prioritized trying to get to more bowl games over pulling in marquee opponents. I don't expect any of these games to bring anything more than a nominal opponent fan base, and some actually worse (I would imagine that Kansas fans are waiting for a Duke-KU game at Cameron Indoor to make the trek to Durham).

So, 44k seats? Per Wikipedia (which is always right), here are the 2012 Northwestern Wildcats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Northwestern_Wildcats_football_team) with attendance figures. This team was supposed to be good, and rightfully so, they went 9-3 in the regular season, only losing to Penn State, Michigan, and Nebraska (the Clemsons and Virginia Techs of the B1G). Their home attendance figures: 32K, 29K, 33K, 47K (Nebraska's first game at NU as a member of the B1G), 44K (Iowa?), 32K. Looking at prior years, Michigan also produces a 47K figure (capacity crowd for Ryan Field).

Basically, we're looking to become Northwestern, but as has been pointed out here, Northwestern is at an attendance advantage in that it is right next to the biggest city in its conference's footprint (stop telling me that New York is in the B1G, I'm not listening), so there are countless alumni of schools like Michigan, Michigan State, Illinois, etc in the area, particularly the wealthy north suburbs of Chicago where NU is located. ACC alumni are not as centrally located in the Triangle as B1G alumni are in Chicago, although I don't want to delve into alumni population figures.

I'd say that expecting a .600 Duke Football team (averaging 7 wins a year) to get over 40K per game is wishful thinking at best. A renovation is going to look nice, and it will be good to not have a freaking track in our football stadium anymore, but we need to be realistic about expectations. That said, I am excited about the renovations, because having the stadium and facilities look more grown-up helps recruiting a fair amount. We want kids to visit Duke, tour the football facility, and think, "this isn't so different from going to NC State/UVA/Wake Forest/Georgia Tech, and the education here is worth more."

Nothing wrong with your post. I think we can, in the future, and should, in the future schedule games with teams which would travel well to Wade, in order to take advantage of such revenue opportunities, in order to support our Football program, and athletics in general. I can see a day when members of power conferences may have attendance average requirements higher than the rest of FBS, and even stadium capacity requirements higher than our current seating capacity.

Wade is a bit of a yawner in which to watch a Football game, compared to what it will be with the straight forward renovation planned for after the season. It will be louder with a sense of being much closer to the action without the running track, and with seats closing in on a lowered field. I think the atmosphere will beget more attendance, that alone, and, perhaps even from students, who will then be able to sit closer to the field and feel more impactful re developments in games.

I think our scheduling is of the mindset of sort of patsies in order to build a tradition of winning which hopefully should bring in fans and improve attendance. There are downsides to this. Central is barely an exhibition game and I think we have misjudged local interest among fans re paying to see Central get killed by Duke. We do not improve as much as we might have playing a bit more formidable of opponent. Bigger games, say trying to get State on the schedule more often as a non-conference game, or playing ECU, or even App State, draw in better crowds. We have a better test of our team and a better chance to learn from that and improve. Recruits visit and see a full stadium and this helps with recruiting. We play in front of bigger crowds, maybe we recruit better and we land enough talent to offset the uptick in the difficulty of the schedule.

Re stadium capacity versus what attendance we might expect, I see very little risk in our current plans. We are not outlaying a fortune, by any means. The interesting thing is that in getting the lower bowl right, now, with a good plan when lowering the field, we have the entire old President's box side on which to add a second deck, if ever need be.

[Dev11]

I think our scheduling is of the mindset of sort of patsies in order to build a tradition of winning which hopefully should bring in fans and improve attendance. There are downsides to this. Central is barely an exhibition game and I think we have misjudged local interest among fans re paying to see Central get killed by Duke. We do not improve as much as we might have playing a bit more formidable of opponent. Bigger games, say trying to get State on the schedule more often as a non-conference game, or playing ECU, or even App State, draw in better crowds. We have a better test of our team and a better chance to learn from that and improve. Recruits visit and see a full stadium and this helps with recruiting. We play in front of bigger crowds, maybe we recruit better and we land enough talent to offset the uptick in the difficulty of the schedule.

I agree, this is a fine line, and playing Central hasn't been as beneficial as we would have hoped. It would help to be able to schedule closer to the start of a given season, rather than 6 or 7 years in advance, so we can more readily predict the quality of the game. Until we're regularly winning 4 ACC games a year, I don't think it helps to schedule tough out of conference. Bowl games matter.

[TruBlu]

We should do like Nascar and let folks listen in to the coach chatter via headsets ... make it available to season ticket holders who pass some sort of loyalty test (so they won't tip the other team ...)

In some recent years, it would not have mattered, as our play-calling was so predictable that even the least knowledgeable fans in the stands knew which play was coming.:(

[Dev11]

In some recent years, it would not have mattered, as our play-calling was so predictable that even the least knowledgeable fans in the stands knew which play was coming.:(

I recall going to the UNC game at Kenan back in 2009, when UNC's game plan was giving the ball to Ryan Houston and letting him run for 8 yards on every play. A very loud man sitting near me got into a rhythm before each UNC offensive play of yelling, "They're giving it to Houston up the middle!!!"

[CameronBornAndBred]

I recall going to the UNC game at Kenan back in 2009, when UNC's game plan was giving the ball to Ryan Houston and letting him run for 8 yards on every play. A very loud man sitting near me got into a rhythm before each UNC offensive play of yelling, "They're giving it to Houston up the middle!!!"

That game sucked, but the tailgate was fun.

3597

[luvdahops]

Most, if not all, of these points have been made already in this thread, but I thought I would link anyway, as student attendance issues are even hitting SEC hotbeds like Georgia and Alabama

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304795804579097223907738780.html?m od=WSJ_hps_MIDDLE_Video_Third

[dukeofcalabash]

Vanderbilt would be a good team to play. So would Tennessee, but I don't see Coach Cut doing that one. How about W. Virginia? Beating Tenn or WVA would be good for the team.

[Duvall]

Vanderbilt would be a good team to play. So would Tennessee, but I don't see Coach Cut doing that one. How about W. Virginia? Beating Tenn or WVA would be good for the team.

What would Duke get from playing any of those teams?

[CameronBornAndBred]

What would Duke get from playing any of those teams?
The last time we played Vandy, we got a win. ;)

[Wander]

I think the ideal would be to have the top non-conference game against a team that has history, a large fan base, and a reputation that would still generate lots of interest and good publicity after a hypothetical victory, but is not realistically unbeatable for us in the same way that Alabama or Stanford is. Something like a Tennessee or Auburn. But as Dev11 pointed out upthread, this is hard to do when you have to schedule your non-con games 27 years in advance or whatever it is.

[throatybeard]

What would Duke get from playing any of those teams?

I've long thought we need to schedule more beatable opponents in BCS conferences. If you schedule a non-BCS opponent and you beat them, whooppee, you did what you were supposed to do. The BCS conferences have enough prestige that it's probably better to beat a so-so BCS team than just about anybody in another conference, with a couple exceptions for the likes of Boise State.

Shockingly, Tennessee and West Virginia look like such schools, this year at least. (It's tough to predict such things years out, but, OTOH, when has IU ever been good at football?). KU was a so-so BCS state school when we played them last, but they kicked out butts. I'd like to see more people like Purdue, Indiana, Illinois, Minnesota, Kentucky, Washington State on the schedule. So-so BCS schools.

I've never liked the argument that we need to schedule a lot of Stanford/Northwestern/Vandy/Rice. (People don't seem to mention ND and USC, and now that Stanford is really good, you see them dropping out of those mentions). It seems to stem from two toxic assumptions: an elitist one that assumes all our players have perfect SAT scores (which they do not), so therefore, we're too good to schedule non-top 50 US News schools, and also a defeatist one, that assumes that we can't beat any big state schools in football. Besides, if you want to play a small private school like us, we're eternally yoked with Wake Forest. That "hit" in the diversity of the schedule is already there.

I'm reminded of the incessant debate about how Koach K schedules basketball. I live on the side with the complainers--I'd like to see more non-conference true road games, for entertainment's sake. One or two a year. We're not asking the world here. They pretty much don't happen anymore outside of the ACC/B1G challenge. The apologists blather about big arenas and metro population bases, and preparing for the NCAAT, which is all well and good, but ignores the fact that UNC-UK is just more exciting on one of their home floors than it would be in a swamp in New Jersey.

[formerdukeathlete]

Vanderbilt would be a good team to play. So would Tennessee, but I don't see Coach Cut doing that one. How about W. Virginia? Beating Tenn or WVA would be good for the team.

Tennessee would travel well to Durham and the trip for our North Carolina / regional alums to Knoxville is an easy drive away. We have West Virginia's home recruiting base covered now with playing Pitt, but West Virginia would travel well to Durham.

I agree with Throaty's sentiments. We have the private academically inclined school thing covered playing Wake every year.

[blazindw]

I think the challenge of scheduling is having some teams that are beatable but also some teams that people want to see. The casual fan will look at the schedule when it comes out and will go "Wow, (insert good team) will be coming. I'd like to see them." That was certainly the case with Alabama...while there was a ton of red in the stands, there was also a ton of blue too. Sure, I like seeing us beat up on some teams, but I like seeing us play some good programs or teams that people will want to see. I was looking at our future nonconference schedules yesterday and here's what we have (obviously subject to change):

2014 - @Troy, Kansas, Elon, Tulane
2015 - Northwestern, @Army, NCCU, @Tulane
2016 - @NW, Army, NCCU, @Notre Dame (ACC rotation?)
2017 - Baylor, @Army, NCCU, Northwestern
2018 - @Baylor, Army, @Northwestern
2019 - Tulane (assume this would be the home Notre Dame year in the ACC rotation as well)

So, there's a couple of good teams/programs and national programs that we're playing, but a lot of them aren't coming to WW. Scheduling more (not a boatload, but some) of those programs to home-and-homes* and having a couple of teams that everyone expects would be decent or big names mixed in with the NCCUs and the Tulanes will help attendance and season tickets as well.

*I'll grant that there may be some teams that don't want to come to WW, like Bama until Cutcliffe said we were keeping the home game

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

The last time we played Vandy, we got a win. ;)

As a Vandy fan, I must say we're a much, much different program since then.

I'm not sure either team has much to gain from playing one another.

[DukeSean]

Looks like the administration is rethinking closing the bowl and adding the extra seating capacity:

http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/10/08/rethinking-wallace-wade-not-finishing-bowl

Adding capacity to make WW seem even more empty is, uh, a bad idea. It's not a "if you build it they will come" sort of scenario. A remake, without extra seats, is a good move, IMO.

[throatybeard]

2014 - @Troy, Kansas, Elon, Tulane
2015 - Northwestern, @Army, NCCU, @Tulane
2016 - @NW, Army, NCCU, @Notre Dame (ACC rotation?)
2017 - Baylor, @Army, NCCU, Northwestern
2018 - @Baylor, Army, @Northwestern
2019 - Tulane (assume this would be the home Notre Dame year in the ACC rotation as well)

At least we can beat Army. Our timing with KU is good, because they're lousy again. Baylor is a stronger program than they used to be.

Tulane. Oh goody. We can go play a game in that depressing dome where Carolina always wins the NCAAT.

No offense to Troy, but it's kind of an indictment of our status that we had to give them a return game.

[Duvall]

At least we can beat Army. Our timing with KU is good, because they're lousy again. Baylor is a stronger program than they used to be.

Tulane. Oh goody. We can go play a game in that depressing dome where Carolina always wins the NCAAT.

No offense to Troy, but it's kind of an indictment of our status that we had to give them a return game.

It was a last-minute arrangement due to the ACC dropping back to the eight-game schedule. Not ideal negotiating conditions. As for Tulane, a winnable road game in a destination city isn't a bad thing.

Duke should buy out of the Baylor games as soon as possible.

[MattC09]

Instead of the normal vendors for football games, Duke should have food trucks on the concourse to replace the fairly pedestrian food selection. Durham is a great place for food, but it doesn't spill over into Wallace Wade. It might hit the revenue cut Duke gets from current vendors, but I would be much more likely to buy food at the game instead of before or after it was awesome.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Looks like the administration is rethinking closing the bowl and adding the extra seating capacity:

http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2013/10/08/rethinking-wallace-wade-not-finishing-bowl

Adding capacity to make WW seem even more empty is, uh, a bad idea. It's not a "if you build it they will come" sort of scenario. A remake, without extra seats, is a good move, IMO.
Whew!!!! I love this. The horseshoe is part of WW's history and I would hate to see it filled in. I also love this part....

Instead, Cragg said realistic options for the future may include expanding the concourse with a natural grass slope so that it goes all the way around, a “Wake Forest or Virginia model” that would provide more seating-type options on the hillside for a family-friendly feel.
Very smart thinking there. If you close it in, still leave it open. I always liked that at NCSU and other stadiums, the ability to be on the hillside.

[Duvall]

I'm wondering what "expanding the concourse" would mean. Would they build a hillside in the open end of the horseshow and then connect the two ends of the concourse on top of that?

[arnie]

It was a last-minute arrangement due to the ACC dropping back to the eight-game schedule. Not ideal negotiating conditions. As for Tulane, a winnable road game in a destination city isn't a bad thing.

Duke should buy out of the Baylor games as soon as possible.

Not sure I understand why we would buy out Baylor games. Recognize we don't need super schedules ( like the 70s with fla, oho st, mich, Washington, USC, etc), but a big game with Baylor might draw attention. I realize winning 4 easy OOC games + 2 ACC games makes for a bowl, but would hope we improve to 3-4 ACC wins in the future. Not sure repeated 2-6 ACC records will make us fill bowl worthy.

[Duvall]

Not sure I understand why we would buy out Baylor games. Recognize we don't need super schedules ( like the 70s with fla, oho st, mich, Washington, USC, etc), but a big game with Baylor might draw attention. I realize winning 4 easy OOC games + 2 ACC games makes for a bowl, but would hope we improve to 3-4 ACC wins in the future. Not sure repeated 2-6 ACC records will make us fill bowl worthy.

Worthy's got nothing to do with it, and the attention from a Duke-Baylor game is the kind of attention we don't want. Duke needs to establish legitimacy, or failing that, the appearance of legitimacy as a major conference program. Being on the wrong end of a blowout doesn't help that on any level.

[matt1]

Worthy's got nothing to do with it, and the attention from a Duke-Baylor game is the kind of attention we don't want. Duke needs to establish legitimacy, or failing that, the appearance of legitimacy as a major conference program. Being on the wrong end of a blowout doesn't help that on any level.

The thing that we are not considering is that, while Baylor is a very good team right now, we have no idea if they will still be one in 2017. The last time we played Kansas (2010?), they were ranked, and now KU is one of the worst programs in the AQ conferences. Baylor will probably not be bad anytime soon, but they are still not a traditional power. By 2017, that could be a winnable game, though by no means a cupcake.

[formerdukeathlete]

I'm wondering what "expanding the concourse" would mean. Would they build a hillside in the open end of the horseshow and then connect the two ends of the concourse on top of that?

The final Bostock renderings now to be re-thought provided than when enclosing in the open end the highest elevation of the addition was lower than the elevation of the concourse on either side. The hill idea would close in the stadium more than what Bostock contemplated.

I think a better idea (than landfilling a hill our players would have to tunnel through in getting to the pracitice facilities) would be to add seats in the open end just as the field is lowered. This is what Wisconsin did. We would have maybe 8 rows of seats in the open end which can be intergrated with the rest of the structure as seats are added when surrounding the field. We retain an open feel, with views of the fieldhouse and practice facilities. And, this would look good, as well.

[throatybeard]

Worthy's got nothing to do with it, and the attention from a Duke-Baylor game is the kind of attention we don't want. Duke needs to establish legitimacy, or failing that, the appearance of legitimacy as a major conference program.

Duke football: the appearance of legitimacy, since 2008.

[Wander]

Worthy's got nothing to do with it, and the attention from a Duke-Baylor game is the kind of attention we don't want. Duke needs to establish legitimacy, or failing that, the appearance of legitimacy as a major conference program. Being on the wrong end of a blowout doesn't help that on any level.

If we're going to assume that Duke has no chance of even being competitive in four years from now in one non-conference game against a team that might or might not be pretty good, then we may as well just give up on this whole thing.

[throatybeard]

If we're going to assume that Duke has no chance of even being competitive in four years from now in one non-conference game against a team that might or might not be pretty good, then we may as well just give up on this whole thing.

Well, yes, but at least we have the luxury of saying things like this less often than we did in the Franks-Roof regime.

[kingboozer]

When it comes to stadium attendance and having an intimate feel, how about tarping off the end zone 'GA' zone for most games pushing the crowds to the sides. I think it'd definitely make the stadium look more full and would look a whole lot better than the sea of aluminum it is now for most games. Plus the tarp could always be removed when necessary.

[Dev11]

When it comes to stadium attendance and having an intimate feel, how about tarping off the end zone 'GA' zone for most games pushing the crowds to the sides. I think it'd definitely make the stadium look more full and would look a whole lot better than the sea of aluminum it is now for most games. Plus the tarp could always be removed when necessary.

In a stadium with only one concourse level, a tarp would probably make it look horribly small. Then again, the tarp could be some needed decorative blue. Show us renderings of this tarp!

[dukeofcalabash]

In a stadium with only one concourse level, a tarp would probably make it look horribly small. Then again, the tarp could be some needed decorative blue. Show us renderings of this tarp!

The use of a tarp sounds like it has potential. I don't have a picture of what I have in mind, but if it were covered with pictures of people in Duke colors it might help those watching on tv believe there are lots of fans in the stadium.

[ChillinDuke]

The use of a tarp sounds like it has potential. I don't have a picture of what I have in mind, but if it were covered with pictures of people in Duke colors it might help those watching on tv believe there are lots of fans in the stadium.

Great idea.

Failing that, we could hire a visual effects firm to add computer graphic fans in the stands. We could save money and go Nintendo 64 quality, would still be an improvement.

Blow up dolls would work too. Think: Will Ferrell porch scene from Old School.

Animatronics?

Heck - maybe we can just run a feed from NCAA Football 2013 over ESPN 3.

- Chillin :rolleyes:

[sagegrouse]

The use of a tarp sounds like it has potential. I don't have a picture of what I have in mind, but if it were covered with pictures of people in Duke colors it might help those watching on tv believe there are lots of fans in the stadium.

I dunno, guys. I only go to 1-2 games per year, but I like the sight angles from the end zone seats. And, they are also closer to the tailgate area.

sagegrouse

[fuse]

I (intellectually, at least) get the "we want to get rid of the track" idea.
What makes no sense is the "more seats" idea.

Rip out the aluminum benches and replace them with NFL style full seats (with backs), and make the seats big enough so that capacity drops from 30k(?) to 25k in the horseshoe.

I used to go to Navy football games in Annapolis and sit in the grass behind the end zone. Filling in the horsehoe that way and offering some sort of $5 general admission grass picnic blanket seating would be cool.

RTP is a state of the art area. Duke could partner with Cisco (disclosure, used to work there) and make Wally Wade a "connected" stadium. Keep you in the seat to use phone/tablet to see replays, stats, order food, etc. Cisco has a whole line of business dedicated to enhanced sports experiences.

To keep this somewhat on topic, the cure to "football attendance frustration challenge" is simple to describe, difficult to execute.
Duke's football team must be competitive in every game (not on the wrong side of a blowout) and establish a track record of 5-6 and 6-5 seasons where we are on the fringe of bowl eligibility every year. It would be great to aim higher.

[airowe]

When it comes to stadium attendance and having an intimate feel, how about tarping off the end zone 'GA' zone for most games pushing the crowds to the sides. I think it'd definitely make the stadium look more full and would look a whole lot better than the sea of aluminum it is now for most games. Plus the tarp could always be removed when necessary.

Love this idea and don't know why it hasn't been implemented yet. Baylor does this and it looks great, imo. They take it off for big games when the demand is there.

3614


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AejLr0sqIM

[Jarhead]

The difference between Baylor and Duke football is that they have a stable program that attracts fans including students. Duke has the beginnings of a stable program. I haven't checked, but when was the last time Duke was 3 and 2 to start a season. Decades of decay in football doesn't wash away in the shower room. That's not all, either. Local fans need to be courted by the program. I have attended games at Wallace Wade stadium with 50,000 fans sitting on pine boards, and they came every week. Regain the national attention that the program used to have, and we'll need those 50k seats.

Lowering the field, which I understand is still in the plans, will provide more seating, but what it will achieve is moving the crowd closer to the field. All those people standing along the sidelines actually block about 10 yards or more from view from the bottom rows. I sit in row EE in section six. The seats used to be on the 50 yard line, but when the put in the Olympic track the field was moved about 5 yards toward the open end. Any play that happens near the sideline can't be seen from my seats. Back in the day, Wallace Wade always sat on the bench, and the players better not block his view. Minus the track, most of the people along the sideline could be moved back towards the wall. That will help.

The recent announcements about a delay in the closing of the open end created the idea that that it was being cancelled. I don't think that is the case at all. It seems to me that closing it in isn't necessary for 5 or more years. The rest of the plan gives a token increase in the seats. Maybe someone will come up with the money to change from the aluminum seat to the folding seats that somebody up-thread suggested. There probably would be no increase in seats if that were done. On the other hand, I have to wonder how those seats would fit into the present concrete. Costly changes may be necessary to do that. If they go along with that Idea I would use Duke blue plastic for them.

Somebody brought up the idea of the use of blue tarps, but I don't understand what that would do. Where would they go? Does somebody think that the Baylor stadium has green tarps covering seats in what looks like on open end of their stadium? I don't think that is the case. It looks like an earlier version of Carter Finley over in Raleigh. It had a sloping grassy area that a lot of fans liked. I don't see that as having any application at Wallace Wade. I would argue against it. In the meantime we should be patient. When Coach Cut gets the team up to 8 or more victories every year we'll get the crowds. Then we can close in the open end. It would be nice of us if we put a more modern visitor's locker room in the structure for them to worry about their upcoming game.

[throatybeard]

The difference between Baylor and Duke football is that they have a stable program that attracts fans including students. Duke has the beginnings of a stable program. I haven't checked, but when was the last time Duke was 3 and 2 to start a season.

Last year, when we started 6-2.

And proceeded to lose five in a row, including fumbling the Bowl game away in epic fashion.

I like the CGI idea. I'm told the crowd scenes in the Coliseum in Gladiator included just 45 people, multiplied through electronic subterfuge.

[Jarhead]

Last year, when we started 6-2.

And proceeded to lose five in a row, including fumbling the Bowl game away in epic fashion.

I like the CGI idea. I'm told the crowd scenes in the Coliseum in Gladiator included just 45 people, multiplied through electronic subterfuge.

I'm getting old, throaty. I forgot about last year. Maybe my memory deleted last year, because of the bowl game.

[airowe]

The difference between Baylor and Duke football is that they have a stable program that attracts fans including students.

Trying to figure out what this has to do with putting a tarp over part of the seats (that are always empty anyways).


Somebody brought up the idea of the use of blue tarps, but I don't understand what that would do. Where would they go? Does somebody think that the Baylor stadium has green tarps covering seats in what looks like on open end of their stadium? I don't think that is the case. It looks like an earlier version of Carter Finley over in Raleigh. It had a sloping grassy area that a lot of fans liked. I don't see that as having any application at Wallace Wade. I would argue against it. In the meantime we should be patient. When Coach Cut gets the team up to 8 or more victories every year we'll get the crowds. Then we can close in the open end. It would be nice of us if we put a more modern visitor's locker room in the structure for them to worry about their upcoming game.

Yes, they go over the seats. The tarp is removed for big games. It covers about 5,000 seats: http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/p/28346072/Can-an-A-and-ampM-fan-enlighten-me-about-the-Baylor-tarp.aspx

You can clearly see seats under the tarp in the screenshot of the video in my last post.

[ForkFondler]

I went to see the Bullets at the MCI center once. Pistons w/ Grant Hill. Yeah, they were probably the Wizards by then, and the stadium has some other name by now. But, I digress. I needed binoculars to see the game, which I didn't have. TV would have been better.

Put 8K seats where the track is now, and WW will rock. The other seats won't matter much.

[msdukie]

It was a last-minute arrangement due to the ACC dropping back to the eight-game schedule. Not ideal negotiating conditions. As for Tulane, a winnable road game in a destination city isn't a bad thing.

Duke should buy out of the Baylor games as soon as possible.

http://yulmanstadium.com/home/

[devildeac]

We were able to sell 2 out of 4 GA tickets for the game tomorrow to MerlinDevilDog and son-of-allenmurray, both bringing a guest to the game. Small step in the right direction. Might not have happened pre-Cut:D. Still got 2 left if anyone is interested;).

[blazindw]

Looking at the new plans had me wondering: what would the capacity be if we removed the bleachers around the stadium and instead had seats, except for the 2 student sections where the bleachers could remain (most students stand the whole game anyway)? A seat fills in more space than bleacher numbers, so I would imagine that if that were the case and they filled in the horseshoe and installed seats except for the student section, you could theoretically complete the renovations as initially planned without increasing capacity all that much.

[uh_no]

Looking at the new plans had me wondering: what would the capacity be if we removed the bleachers around the stadium and instead had seats, except for the 2 student sections where the bleachers could remain (most students stand the whole game anyway)? A seat fills in more space than bleacher numbers, so I would imagine that if that were the case and they filled in the horseshoe and installed seats except for the student section, you could theoretically complete the renovations as initially planned without increasing capacity all that much.

it would be very difficult due to the fact we are constrained by the concrete steps....what you end up is seats with approximately 0 legroom which are terribly uncomfortable for anyone taller than 5'8....aka kenan stadium at UNC

[kingboozer]

In a stadium with only one concourse level, a tarp would probably make it look horribly small. Then again, the tarp could be some needed decorative blue. Show us renderings of this tarp!

3616 3617 3618 3619

Several programs do it, it doesn't have to be a permanent fixture of the stadium, just something to provide a more intimate feel when we don't have a sellout on our hands, just my thought. I'm sure someone could come up with a cool design for Duke to use.

[wilko]

More performance's like yesterday will go along way to filling seats....

[Jarhead]

it would be very difficult due to the fact we are constrained by the concrete steps....what you end up is seats with approximately 0 legroom which are terribly uncomfortable for anyone taller than 5'8....aka kenan stadium at UNC
While sitting in Wallace Wade Stadium for yesterday's win over Navy I made some eyeball estimates, and convinced myself that there is no way that permanent folding seats could simply replace the aluminum benches. I use one of those small folding seats that lots of people take to games, and my knees always seem to make contact with the folks in front of me. Those hard stadium seats that you see in some stadiums would help, but an additional 6 inches of space between the rows would be necessary, maybe more, maybe as much as a foot. Duke blue would be nice for the seats. It would take a lot of concrete to take care of that, maybe even demolition of the existing concrete, but maybe a civil engineer or architect can do a creative estimate of costs on a paper napkin, or an I pad, or a...

[blazindw]

it would be very difficult due to the fact we are constrained by the concrete steps....what you end up is seats with approximately 0 legroom which are terribly uncomfortable for anyone taller than 5'8....aka kenan stadium at UNC


While sitting in Wallace Wade Stadium for yesterday's win over Navy I made some eyeball estimates, and convinced myself that there is no way that permanent folding seats could simply replace the aluminum benches. I use one of those small folding seats that lots of people take to games, and my knees always seem to make contact with the folks in front of me. Those hard stadium seats that you see in some stadiums would help, but an additional 6 inches of space between the rows would be necessary, maybe more, maybe as much as a foot. Duke blue would be nice for the seats. It would take a lot of concrete to take care of that, maybe even demolition of the existing concrete, but maybe a civil engineer or architect can do a creative estimate of costs on a paper napkin, or an I pad, or a...

Yes, I wasn't trying to infer it would be a direct replacement or that there wouldn't be other construction involved. I'm not an engineer, but I'm certain it couldn't be something where you rip out the bleachers and just put in seats. I was just wondering about the difference in seats. I think painting the upstairs seats in Cameron blue was a minor change, but one that impressed the most visually. Makes Cameron look completely different. Maybe painting the bleachers in Wally Wade blue will help!

[Devil549]

Renovating WW will help recruiting....plain and simple....we have to move the track.

Friends I have brought to WW for first time always ask about track say it looks like a big HS field.....reality.

We keep winning and competing in ACC the crowds will show up.....it is all a process.

[Jarhead]

Renovating WW will help recruiting....plain and simple....we have to move the track.

Friends I have brought to WW for first time always ask about track say it looks like a big HS field.....reality.

We keep winning and competing in ACC the crowds will show up.....it is all a process.

Exactly! The new track and field stadium process is already in motion, and Wallace Wade Stadium renovations will start pretty soon. In order for it to work the field must be lowered. It looks as if the only thing put on hold for a while is the closing in of the open end of the stadium. My thought is that it will be done when attendance figures demand it. I'll repeat my wish that when that is done it includes an updated visitors locker room.

[dpslaw]

I thought the visitors' locker room was replaced when the Brooks Practice Facility was renovated.

[sagegrouse]

Exactly! The new track and field stadium process is already in motion, and Wallace Wade Stadium renovations will start pretty soon. In order for it to work the field must be lowered. It looks as if the only thing put on hold for a while is the closing in of the open end of the stadium. My thought is that it will be done when attendance figures demand it. I'll repeat my wish that when that is done it includes an updated visitors locker room.

Recent chats have come up with some new concepts. The issue is to attract more fans by making it a better individual and family experience. The easiest thing to do is to rim the stadium with luxury seating lounges that excellect seats backed by a lounge area that provides amenities, including TV, food and wine.

Closing in the open end of the stadium is now being talked about as grassy hillside, wherer guests, and fans, and families could have picnics and pay. The current stadium will need severe changes to arrive at more comfortable folding chair seats. The aisles are not wide enough and risers may need to be rebuilt
I don't think seating demands will, by themseves, lead to an expansion of the stadium and amenities, but will have to be fed by (a) better success on the field and (b) an enhanced attendance fed by the new amenities and better exhibits

[jjasper0729]

Recent chats have come up with some new concepts. The issue is to attract more fans by making it a better individual and family experience. The easiest thing to do is to rim the stadium with luxury seating lounges that excellect seats backed by a lounge area that provides amenities, including TV, food and wine.

I've said and thought many times that what they should do is take the concept of the President's Box on the visitor's sideline and ring that around the top of the stadium. Why is this? Because it's a two-tiered seating area. What they could then do is enclose the upper half (that's behind the main wall and above it so that you get a "club" section and then you have the lower half (the first three or four rows at the top of the stands) that's open air, but more comfortable seats. This is similar to the way the DBAP is with their club seats if I'm not mistaken. If they do this all the way around then they could sell season club passes in the best spots to watch (along the sidelines) and then individual club seats per game for parties and what-not. That would allow families to come with bigger groups that could enjoy the open air (under an "awning" more or less) or go back "inside" when the weather is colder and still enjoy the game.

Of course, renovating the concourse, making nicer, more convenient concession areas so that it's got a plaza, old-style-ancient-Roman-forum/marketplace feel to it wouldn't be bad either.

Just my two cents.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Renovating WW will help recruiting....plain and simple....we have to move the track.

Friends I have brought to WW for first time always ask about track say it looks like a big HS field.....reality.

We keep winning and competing in ACC the crowds will show up.....it is all a process.

I am beginning to question that. Logically, you are completely right. However, we went to a bowl game last year, are having a winning season so far this year, we have better talent on the field, and crowds are down. Maybe the fans decided we did what they waited so long to see last year and now they can go back home and watch? No idea...but the reality is, there are LESS people showing up this year than the ones previous. The parking lots are more empty, the stands are more empty. Even the tailgates have fewer numbers. It is bizarre. I feel for the folks in the administration that have the job to attract more people into the games, it is truly a monumental undertaking.

[Dev11]

I thought the visitors' locker room was replaced when the Brooks Practice Facility was renovated.

That's correct. Our visitor's locker room is oddly far away from the playing field (Brooks is on the other end of the practice field behind the open end of the bowl), but it is one of the nicer visiting locker rooms in the ACC.

[ForkFondler]

I am beginning to question that. Logically, you are completely right. However, we went to a bowl game last year, are having a winning season so far this year, we have better talent on the field, and crowds are down. Maybe the fans decided we did what they waited so long to see last year and now they can go back home and watch? No idea...but the reality is, there are LESS people showing up this year than the ones previous. The parking lots are more empty, the stands are more empty. Even the tailgates have fewer numbers. It is bizarre. I feel for the folks in the administration that have the job to attract more people into the games, it is truly a monumental undertaking.

Ticket prices went up -- that is why the crowd is smaller. There aren't enough Duke fans anywhere near Durham to fill the stadium, so in order to fill the stadium Duke will need to attract other FB fans. That probably isn't going to happen without cheap ($10-20) seats in the end zone.

[OldPhiKap]

Ticket prices went up -- that is why the crowd is smaller. There aren't enough Duke fans anywhere near Durham to fill the stadium, so in order to fill the stadium Duke will need to attract other FB fans. That probably isn't going to happen without cheap ($10-20) seats in the end zone.

We need to fill the end zone, if for no other reason than to look like folks show up when you watch the game on TV. That big, white empty that is always on the television screen is sad.

[uh_no]

I am beginning to question that. Logically, you are completely right. However, we went to a bowl game last year, are having a winning season so far this year, we have better talent on the field, and crowds are down. Maybe the fans decided we did what they waited so long to see last year and now they can go back home and watch? No idea...but the reality is, there are LESS people showing up this year than the ones previous. The parking lots are more empty, the stands are more empty. Even the tailgates have fewer numbers. It is bizarre. I feel for the folks in the administration that have the job to attract more people into the games, it is truly a monumental undertaking.

but we got smoked in our one legitimate ACC competition, and lost in a shootout against a quite mediocre pitt team...making us 0-2 in the league, giving up a combined billion and a half points in the two competitions....most of our wins come against overmatched opponents, and we often struggle to be competitive with a good portion of the league.

Take a look at our records down the stretch.....

'12 1-5
'11 0-7
'10 2-6

people will show up for a team on the cusp of bowl eligibility, or a team already bowl eligible, I think....if we win one of our next 2 away games, and come back home with 5 wins, people will show.....if we're already going bowling, people will show....

maybe i'm wrong....but i'm not sure we've turned the "good football" corner as much as we can yet....and so far this year, the losses to pitt and GT hint that the stretch may end the same way, though I hope not

[killerleft]

I am beginning to question that. Logically, you are completely right. However, we went to a bowl game last year, are having a winning season so far this year, we have better talent on the field, and crowds are down. Maybe the fans decided we did what they waited so long to see last year and now they can go back home and watch? No idea...but the reality is, there are LESS people showing up this year than the ones previous. The parking lots are more empty, the stands are more empty. Even the tailgates have fewer numbers. It is bizarre. I feel for the folks in the administration that have the job to attract more people into the games, it is truly a monumental undertaking.

You're spot on, CB&B. I have tried to ignore the fact that crowds are down, mainly because I find it to be depressing. Ticket prices going up don't help when you're trying to attract locals whose extra coin is shrinking. The tiered pricing is not a help. The State game could attract some new fans, but the ones we need to cultivate can't afford $65 (I think) each for a ticket. I noticed Saturday there was a giveaway of State tickets (general admission, I presume) tied into the purchase of some , what, basketball tickets of some flavor?

Still, it IS bizarre that less fans have shown up this year. Too bad more didn't show up for Navy. Our athletic superiority was on display, and we haven't had that against, well, almost anybody for years.

Keep winning and keep hoping. It appears that the enormous TV money is a double-edged sword. More people want their sports pixelated and can't be bothered to see games for real. Too bad for Duke- and us. Live football in front of a good crowd is hard to beat. The Carolina game last year was as much fun as I've had at a ballgame of any kind for a while.

[airowe]

but we got smoked in our one legitimate ACC competition, and lost in a shootout against a quite mediocre pitt team...making us 0-2 in the league, giving up a combined billion and a half points in the two competitions....most of our wins come against overmatched opponents, and we often struggle to be competitive with a good portion of the league.

Take a look at our records down the stretch.....

'12 1-5
'11 0-7
'10 2-6

people will show up for a team on the cusp of bowl eligibility, or a team already bowl eligible, I think....if we win one of our next 2 away games, and come back home with 5 wins, people will show.....if we're already going bowling, people will show....

maybe i'm wrong....but i'm not sure we've turned the "good football" corner as much as we can yet....and so far this year, the losses to pitt and GT hint that the stretch may end the same way, though I hope not

Georgia Tech game was the first start for Duke's third-string QB. Six three-and-outs will lead a team to getting "smoked".
Do you think Duke loses to Pitt if Boone was starting? Connette threw four interceptions, including a pick six. Duke lost by three points.

Cutcliffe doesn't: "We don’t turn it over four times against Pitt, we win by three touchdowns."

[sagegrouse]

but we got smoked in our one legitimate ACC competition, and lost in a shootout against a quite mediocre pitt team...making us 0-2 in the league, giving up a combined billion and a half points in the two competitions....most of our wins come against overmatched opponents, and we often struggle to be competitive with a good portion of the league.

Take a look at our records down the stretch.....

'12 1-5
'11 0-7
'10 2-6

people will show up for a team on the cusp of bowl eligibility, or a team already bowl eligible, I think....if we win one of our next 2 away games, and come back home with 5 wins, people will show.....if we're already going bowling, people will show....

maybe i'm wrong....but i'm not sure we've turned the "good football" corner as much as we can yet....and so far this year, the losses to pitt and GT hint that the stretch may end the same way, though I hope not

I agree with you that our team has faded down the stretch, usually against stronger competition. I am more hopeful this year. This team has done well int he second half of games. Here's abreakdown of scoring by quarter for the first six games:



PERIOD 1 2 3 4 TOT
OPP-T 37 59 28 24 148
DUK-T 35 49 35 51 170

OPP-T 25% 40% 19% 16% 100%
DUK-T 21% 29% 21% 30% 100%


Our defense has been much better in the second half than the first, yielding only 35 percent of the points then. Meanwhile, our offense has performed equally well in both halves.

Better game conditioning is not the same as keeping strong throughout the season, but I think this team has more swagger than past teams.

sagegrouse

[sagegrouse]

I agree with you that our team has faded down the stretch, usually against stronger competition. I am more hopeful this year. This team has done well int he second half of games. Here's abreakdown of scoring by quarter for the first six games:



PERIOD 1 2 3 4 TOT
OPP-T 37 59 28 24 148
DUK-T 35 49 35 51 170

OPP-T 25% 40% 19% 16% 100%
DUK-T 21% 29% 21% 30% 100%


Our defense has been much better in the second half than the first, yielding only 35 percent of the points then. Meanwhile, our offense has performed equally well in both halves.

Better game conditioning is not the same as keeping strong throughout the season, but I think this team has more swagger than past teams.

sagegrouse

Oops! These stats are based on FBS opponents only, leaving out the 45-0 victory over NCCU. It doesn't affect the opponents line.

sage

[ForkFondler]

but we got smoked in our one legitimate ACC competition, and lost in a shootout against a quite mediocre pitt team...making us 0-2 in the league, giving up a combined billion and a half points in the two competitions....most of our wins come against overmatched opponents, and we often struggle to be competitive with a good portion of the league.

Take a look at our records down the stretch.....

'12 1-5
'11 0-7
'10 2-6


Last season the November stretch consisted of Clemson-FSU-GT-Miami. This season it is NC St-Miami-Wake-UNC. Plus we have a second bye week going into it.

[uh_no]

Georgia Tech game was the first start for Duke's third-string QB. Six three-and-outs will lead a team to getting "smoked".
Do you think Duke loses to Pitt if Boone was starting? Connette threw four interceptions, including a pick six. Duke lost by three points.

Cutcliffe doesn't: "We don’t turn it over four times against Pitt, we win by three touchdowns."

do you think the casual fan gives a hoot? They just see duke got beat down.

I think we beat pitt if boone was starting....all that lives on is the loss, though.

[uh_no]

Last season the November stretch consisted of Clemson-FSU-GT-Miami. This season it is NC St-Miami-Wake-UNC. Plus we have a second bye week going into it.

there's plenty of justification for it, I know....but casual fans and even "experts" can't think that hard about it...look at all the pre-season previews of duke this year...nobody pays attention to who we lost to, the SOS, who was our starting QB....all that mattered was 6-7, and all that matters right now is 0-2

[devildeac]

Ticket prices went up -- that is why the crowd is smaller. There aren't enough Duke fans anywhere near Durham to fill the stadium, so in order to fill the stadium Duke will need to attract other FB fans. That probably isn't going to happen without cheap ($10-20) seats in the end zone.

We bought 4 GA season tix again this year for about the 8th consecutive year. I think they started off about $250 for 6 home games, or about $10 each. This year for 7 games, I think they were $315 plus processing of $15 per order and S&H of $15 for a total of $345, or about $14 each. The cheap seats are there and I think we can sit anywhere in sections 12-20 at that price. Heck, with the crowds we typically have, we can move to near midfield and harass Ozzie and Jim Sumner if we wanted for 60 minutes:eek:. Instead, I usually irritate Bob Green and his family:o. Interesting thread. I'm not sure what it's gonna take to put fannies in the seats. It is indeed a difficult problem.

[BigWayne]

We bought 4 GA season tix again this year for about the 8th consecutive year. I think they started off about $250 for 6 home games, or about $10 each. This year for 7 games, I think they were $315 plus processing of $15 per order and S&H of $15 for a total of $345, or about $14 each. The cheap seats are there and I think we can sit anywhere in sections 12-20 at that price. Heck, with the crowds we typically have, we can move to near midfield and harass Ozzie and Jim Sumner if we wanted for 60 minutes:eek:. Instead, I usually irritate Bob Green and his family:o. Interesting thread. I'm not sure what it's gonna take to put fannies in the seats. It is indeed a difficult problem.

There is a simple answer that is not dependent on wins, losses, alumni demographics or weather...beer.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/09/beer_sales_at_carrier_dome_app.html

Surely when they do this renovation of the press box/luxury suite facility they will be serving drinks to the high rollers. Open it up to the general public and you will see attendance improve. There will also be less competition from the parking lots for attendance.

[Reilly]

There is a simple answer ... beer ...

"To alcohol, the cause of -- and solution to -- all of life's problems." - Homer Simpson

[devil84]

I am beginning to question that. Logically, you are completely right. However, we went to a bowl game last year, are having a winning season so far this year, we have better talent on the field, and crowds are down. Maybe the fans decided we did what they waited so long to see last year and now they can go back home and watch? No idea...but the reality is, there are LESS people showing up this year than the ones previous. The parking lots are more empty, the stands are more empty. Even the tailgates have fewer numbers. It is bizarre. I feel for the folks in the administration that have the job to attract more people into the games, it is truly a monumental undertaking.

Don't give up yet. Here's how the casual fan might view going to a Duke football game:


So, the last time I went to the game several years ago, I had to park a zillion miles away and walk through lots and lots of parking lots. How come nobody is tailgating? As my family of four entered the stadium, the officials confiscated our mostly empty bottles of water (or bottles of water/baby food/couple of granola bars) we didn't think were going to be forbidden. No big deal (except for the baby food, which can't be purchased inside), until we wound up paying $12 for water. It was really, really hot, and we noticed EMS tending to lots of people in the stands. I took the kids to the bathroom -- what a PIT! At half time, I went to get more water for everyone, and there wasn't any to be purchased! How does a stadium run out of WATER?! My spouse and I were getting fidgety because those seemly tiny ridges on the bleachers seem like mountains under your backside and there's no back to lean against to change position. The kids were hot, sunburnt, and bored with playing in the empty bleachers with the discarded cups. We'd cheer for the team, but it's hard to cheer when the few others that are there aren't really cheering, and to be honest, we're getting shellacked and there's nothing to cheer for. We headed home in the middle of the third quarter, rethinking why we spent a couple hundred dollars on this experience.

Someone offered me tickets for this week's game and I thought about it. Didn't Duke lose most of their games last year? Oh yeah, they did go to that bowl game, didn't they. OK, I guess they're better, but they haven't put two good seasons together since, uh...I can't remember them doing that in my life. I dunno. I haven't seen a game on TV in forever -- good teams are on TV, right? -- so I'm not certain who is even on the team. What's their record now? I haven't heard. I gotta walk a long way to get to a hot, uncomfortable stadium with horrible bathrooms, and overpriced food -- and they even ran out of water last time. WATER! Even though the tickets are free, I'll still spend $80 on parking, water, and a couple of snacks. Nah, I think I'll aerate the yard and tackle that honey-do list.


I've had this conversation numerous times with people. Seems there were a lot of people that didn't have a good enough experience to go back. Some of that has been fixed -- there's a good game day atmosphere, the bathrooms are nice, and there's MUCH improved football on the field. But it's going to take more than one season with a half-dozen wins to get people out. There's a half-decade of being one of the worst Division I football teams to overcome. Especially with two other excellent college game day experiences within 20 miles.

This year presents an additional problem as the economy is really, really uncertain. If you've got a dwindling pot of discretionary funds, do you spend them on what you remember to be an unpleasant experience or do you chase what you think is a more pleasant experience?

One year of pretty good football doesn't suddenly change everyone's mind, particularly when it ended in a slide. Doesn't matter if the games were exciting, close games that Duke almost won. They're mentally filed in the same "Duke loses AGAIN" category as most of the last 50+ years. Duke is MUCH better now, and those of us that follow them know that. Other don't know that from the local media, as the only hype around football this year seems to be the UNC scandal. With three big D-I programs in the same market, nobody gets massive coverage, and Duke is still third string in football.

We've got to be patient. Good football is coming. Until then, getting butts in the seats is going to rely on gimmicks that make the news for other reasons, like the very popular food truck rodeos. Even if the people don't go to the games, we need to get people to see that the game day atmosphere outside of Wallace Wade is MUCH improved. They might be willing to step inside and see that the game day has changed inside the stadium, too.

It IS a monumental undertaking.

[CameronBornAndBred]

So I got an email today from Duke marketing, letting me know I can go to both CTC and the NCSU game for the low price of $60. It is tempting to laugh.
I can buy CTC tix now for $31, $26, or $21. That means the NCSU tix are going for $39, $34, or $29. ALL of which are silly prices if your goal is to put people in the stands. They need to offer the tix to the football game at $20 or lower if they want to get people in the stands. How someone at marketing thought this was going to bring a lot of people in is beyond me. Maybe they don't; obviously the number can't be too high since Cameron only holds a limited number of people. Still...c'mon people! If you want to fill seats in Wallace Wade on game day, don't sell tickets at a price that is going to keep fans at home.


It is an exciting time in Duke Athletics, with our football team off to a good start, and another action-packed basketball season just around the corner. We want to invite you to share in our excitement by offering a special package for to upcoming popular events.
For just $60, you can receive a ticket to Countdown to Craziness presented by PNC on Friday, October 18th at 8:00 pm, AND a ticket to the Duke vs. NC State football game on Saturday, November 9th. On Friday, be here for the first look at our 2013-2014 Men's Basketball team and witness the high-flying slam dunk contest, player introductions, and the team scrimmage at Countdown to Craziness presented by PNC. Then, on November 9th, see the Blue Devils take on in-state rival NC State. See both of these exciting events for just $60.

[Acymetric]

For a real life example of what Devil84 said, I know a guy that came to games and still goes to Duke basketball games. A few years back (might have been 2010) he was on his way in either for the State game or Carolina game, and was turned away from all entrances that would allow him to get to his parking lot (Iron Duke with a pass). He hasn't been to a game since.

Me and my dad had a few similar experiences, including one where on our way to the stadium after parking a solid 15 minutes further away we passed the guy that turned us back and he said "oh hey actually you can turn in here" (little late for that, guy). Obviously parking has improved greatly since then, but realize that we have been doing things to drive not just casual football fans but dedicated Duke fans away for years.

Finishing 0-5 and the shaky start to this season didn't really help either. We're getting there but if you were expecting packed stadiums all year this year then you set yourself up for disappointment from the beginning.

[formerdukeathlete]

There is a simple answer that is not dependent on wins, losses, alumni demographics or weather...beer.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/09/beer_sales_at_carrier_dome_app.html

Surely when they do this renovation of the press box/luxury suite facility they will be serving drinks to the high rollers. Open it up to the general public and you will see attendance improve. There will also be less competition from the parking lots for attendance.

The suites and club seats will have access to alcohol, food, before during and after the games. Duke might expand what they offer now in hospitality tents. Get some corporate contributions toward the stadium.....the "Anheuser Bush Concourse" at Wallace Wade Stadium.....sounds pretty inviting.

Beer at Wade, its been done before. When I was at Duke I recall vaguely that we were allowed to roll kegs into the stadium for Football games. There might be a connection between those kegs and the vagueness of my recollection:)

[BigWayne]

The suites and club seats will have access to alcohol, food, before during and after the games. Duke might expand what they offer now in hospitality tents. Get some corporate contributions toward the stadium.....the "Anheuser Bush Concourse" at Wallace Wade Stadium.....sounds pretty inviting.

Beer at Wade, its been done before. When I was at Duke I recall vaguely that we were allowed to roll kegs into the stadium for Football games. There might be a connection between those kegs and the vagueness of my recollection:)

I was involved with successfully getting a few kegs into the stands, but I wouldn't exactly say they were "allowed." I also remember one we didn't get in that had to be consumed just outside the fence. Of course this was all before Reagan raised the drinking age.

[throatybeard]

Don't give up yet. Here's how the casual fan might view going to a Duke football game:


So, the last time I went to the game several years ago, I had to park a zillion miles away and walk through lots and lots of parking lots. How come nobody is tailgating? As my family of four entered the stadium, the officials confiscated our mostly empty bottles of water (or bottles of water/baby food/couple of granola bars) we didn't think were going to be forbidden. No big deal (except for the baby food, which can't be purchased inside), until we wound up paying $12 for water. It was really, really hot, and we noticed EMS tending to lots of people in the stands. I took the kids to the bathroom -- what a PIT! At half time, I went to get more water for everyone, and there wasn't any to be purchased! How does a stadium run out of WATER?! My spouse and I were getting fidgety because those seemly tiny ridges on the bleachers seem like mountains under your backside and there's no back to lean against to change position. The kids were hot, sunburnt, and bored with playing in the empty bleachers with the discarded cups. We'd cheer for the team, but it's hard to cheer when the few others that are there aren't really cheering, and to be honest, we're getting shellacked and there's nothing to cheer for. We headed home in the middle of the third quarter, rethinking why we spent a couple hundred dollars on this experience.

Someone offered me tickets for this week's game and I thought about it. Didn't Duke lose most of their games last year? Oh yeah, they did go to that bowl game, didn't they. OK, I guess they're better, but they haven't put two good seasons together since, uh...I can't remember them doing that in my life. I dunno. I haven't seen a game on TV in forever -- good teams are on TV, right? -- so I'm not certain who is even on the team. What's their record now? I haven't heard. I gotta walk a long way to get to a hot, uncomfortable stadium with horrible bathrooms, and overpriced food -- and they even ran out of water last time. WATER! Even though the tickets are free, I'll still spend $80 on parking, water, and a couple of snacks. Nah, I think I'll aerate the yard and tackle that honey-do list.


I've had this conversation numerous times with people. Seems there were a lot of people that didn't have a good enough experience to go back. Some of that has been fixed -- there's a good game day atmosphere, the bathrooms are nice, and there's MUCH improved football on the field. But it's going to take more than one season with a half-dozen wins to get people out. There's a half-decade of being one of the worst Division I football teams to overcome. Especially with two other excellent college game day experiences within 20 miles.

This year presents an additional problem as the economy is really, really uncertain. If you've got a dwindling pot of discretionary funds, do you spend them on what you remember to be an unpleasant experience or do you chase what you think is a more pleasant experience?

One year of pretty good football doesn't suddenly change everyone's mind, particularly when it ended in a slide. Doesn't matter if the games were exciting, close games that Duke almost won. They're mentally filed in the same "Duke loses AGAIN" category as most of the last 50+ years. Duke is MUCH better now, and those of us that follow them know that. Other don't know that from the local media, as the only hype around football this year seems to be the UNC scandal. With three big D-I programs in the same market, nobody gets massive coverage, and Duke is still third string in football.

We've got to be patient. Good football is coming. Until then, getting butts in the seats is going to rely on gimmicks that make the news for other reasons, like the very popular food truck rodeos. Even if the people don't go to the games, we need to get people to see that the game day atmosphere outside of Wallace Wade is MUCH improved. They might be willing to step inside and see that the game day has changed inside the stadium, too.

It IS a monumental undertaking.

Except for the kids, this sounds like what the late DurhamNative said about taking his aged parents to the 2001 game against State. Yes, the game with 35,200 people, hot temperatures and harsh sun in November, almost no water, and his aged parents in tow. At least Rivers had the mercy to wait for our guys to get onside when Franks et alia couldn't get them on the field before the snap was supposed to occur.

I can't confirm this, since he's dead, but I'm pretty sure DN never came back to Wallace Wade after that. Lifelong Duke fan. Didn't come back.

It's amazing to me that, in late summer, in the American South, in a heat-radiating baking bowl separated from the field by a stupid track, surrounded by freaking asphalt, we can screw up something as fundamental as hydration.

I left Durham for the territories one day after my dissertation defense, in August 2004. All during my four years in Ugrad and four years in PhDskool, I vigorously defended Duke football, mostly to other Duke people. Then I spent three years at Mississippi State, a school I had no ties to other than a guy from my hometown in grades 8-12 making it onto their roster in the early 1990s (QB Rodney Hudson). MSU schooled me. Schooled me. This is generally regarded as the third-worst football school in the 1992-2011 SEC, finishing ahead of UK and Vandy, but no one else. I'd never seen a real tailgate atmosphere. I'd never seen 55000 people giving a crap about a 3-8 team. And it's a small state school. The population is more local than Duke, but we're not talking about UGA or UF or Clemson or Carolina. Back then, the whole school had an enrollment of about 16K. Duke is like 12K with the grad/prof people. Yeah, I know, local/nonlocal, OK. Mississippi is po', y'all. I don't think MSU being a state school gives them much attendance advantage over Duke, if you wash it all out. The "locals" that people are always hoping will come to Duke games? There are like 200 of them for MSU. The fanbase is rich lawyers and engineers who live in Jackson, Memphis, Birmingham, and Atlanta. Dallas too.

As soon as I saw three consecutive 3-8 MSU teams have 21 successful tailgates in even worse hot weather than you have in Durham, I quit defending Duke and Duke's utter abandonment of football culture. The funny thing is that, during the 1980s-2000s, MSU was better at baseball and MBB most of the time than FB. It's not like it was a heyday. They just care about FB in the SEC. Caring by a lot of people counts.

This has to do with culture. If you can't seat people anywhere near the field because of a stupid track, fail. If you can't make water easily available in hellish Southern temperatures, fail. If the bathrooms regularly smell like doo-doo, like they did when in I was in school, fail. If all the food is terrible fried crap in a chi-chi market like the Triangle, fail. (This is actually an advantage in MS--they like terrible fried crap). If your approach to skyboxes is that of 1983, fail. If your own fans disdain the team because the MBB team is better, fail. If you have almost no students at the game, fail. (Yes, I know the size of the Ugrad student body and their proportion of 33,941--but a few dozen won't do it).

I think Cut has the patience of Job.

People say we need to win. OK, probably. But as Della points out, we need to quit failing at the gameday experience. We could go 10-2 and WW would still look like no one had any idea how football works, except Jim Sumner, who's still holding the season ticket fort down, God bless him. All this stuff about how we just need to win was cute 19 years ago when I was a frosh. It's not anymore. Duke has abandoned the culture. Without getting too pessimistic about the larger forces at work, I still wonder why we're too damn dumb to let people hydrate themselves in a harsh subtropical climate.

I think when we hired Cut, I had a last flash of optimism. Smart guy. SEC guy. Manning teacher. Wooo. He's great. But that isn't going to make an anti-football school like football, much less get some fifth grader from Holt ES in the seats while everyone dehydrates in the sun for the Duke-Troy game.

I used to be a staunch defender. I used to be the guy who went to his job at NC State wearing a Duke hat the day after Clemson beat us in FB by six touchdowns. But I'm done. It's not about the on-field product anymore. It's about Duke people's failure to understand how this works. Given that Duke is primarily a research university, I can live with this.

[Lid]

If you can't make water easily available in hellish Southern temperatures, fail.

I don't disagree with much of what you've said, although I don't feel as strongly as you do. We've had season tickets since I moved back to Durham, and for some reason, we still enjoy coming to the games, although I understand that not everyone enjoys the experience. I don't blame people for that one bit, and honestly, every time I'm sitting in the oven that is Wally Wade, I curse the fact that we have to let some random person in Connecticut tell us to play at noon, when no one's watching anyway. I also curse the price increases in the employee plan, when I'm paying a lot for the privilege of staring at the sun for several hours. I just can't afford to pay Iron Duke prices for the shady side if I want to come with my kids.

But, I did want to let people know that after the horrible water situation of a couple years ago, which was truly irresponsible and disastrous, they have gotten their act together in this one area. When it's hot, they have free water and plenty of it now. There are also at least 2 mister tents near our seats, so I'm assuming there are likely more on the home side. I'm not sure what the temperature cutoff is to enact the "hydration plan" or whatever they call it, but I haven't been to a hot game this year and bought my own water. You can also bring empty water bottles to the stadium and fill them at will, and I've done this several times.

Also, the new bathrooms are really great. I'm still waiting for decent food -- they offered hummus at the regular concessions stands last year, and sold essentially none, so it's off the menu, unfortunately. This doesn't seem to be an if-you-build-it-they-will-come scenario.

[devil84]

But, I did want to let people know that after the horrible water situation of a couple years ago, which was truly irresponsible and disastrous, they have gotten their act together in this one area. When it's hot, they have free water and plenty of it now. There are also at least 2 mister tents near our seats, so I'm assuming there are likely more on the home side. I'm not sure what the temperature cutoff is to enact the "hydration plan" or whatever they call it, but I haven't been to a hot game this year and bought my own water. You can also bring empty water bottles to the stadium and fill them at will, and I've done this several times.

Also, the new bathrooms are really great. I'm still waiting for decent food -- they offered hummus at the regular concessions stands last year, and sold essentially none, so it's off the menu, unfortunately. This doesn't seem to be an if-you-build-it-they-will-come scenario.

THIS needs to be advertised to those casual fans who were affected by the heat/hydration issues. And the bathroom issues. (We can omit that the food hasn't been upgraded, though).

Some people who had bad experiences are waiting until they can watch consistently good football. I think the growth of a program is fun to watch, too, and some fans are missing something special because they don't know the problems have been solved. Some other gimmicks, like a food truck rodeo, different halftime entertainment (in ADDITION to the marching band), maybe a festival of some sort that brings different foods to the concourse -- anything to draw those people who had bad experiences back to WW, and even draw new people in who otherwise wouldn't have sought out a Duke football game.

[formerdukeathlete]

Except for the kids, this sounds like what the late DurhamNative said about taking his aged parents to the 2001 game against State. Yes, the game with 35,200 people, hot temperatures and harsh sun in November, almost no water, and his aged parents in tow. At least Rivers had the mercy to wait for our guys to get onside when Franks et alia couldn't get them on the field before the snap was supposed to occur.

I can't confirm this, since he's dead, but I'm pretty sure DN never came back to Wallace Wade after that. Lifelong Duke fan. Didn't come back.

It's amazing to me that, in late summer, in the American South, in a heat-radiating baking bowl separated from the field by a stupid track, surrounded by freaking asphalt, we can screw up something as fundamental as hydration.

I left Durham for the territories one day after my dissertation defense, in August 2004. All during my four years in Ugrad and four years in PhDskool, I vigorously defended Duke football, mostly to other Duke people. Then I spent three years at Mississippi State, a school I had no ties to other than a guy from my hometown in grades 8-12 making it onto their roster in the early 1990s (QB Rodney Hudson). MSU schooled me. Schooled me. This is generally regarded as the third-worst football school in the 1992-2011 SEC, finishing ahead of UK and Vandy, but no one else. I'd never seen a real tailgate atmosphere. I'd never seen 55000 people giving a crap about a 3-8 team. And it's a small state school. The population is more local than Duke, but we're not talking about UGA or UF or Clemson or Carolina. Back then, the whole school had an enrollment of about 16K. Duke is like 12K with the grad/prof people. Yeah, I know, local/nonlocal, OK. Mississippi is po', y'all. I don't think MSU being a state school gives them much attendance advantage over Duke, if you wash it all out. The "locals" that people are always hoping will come to Duke games? There are like 200 of them for MSU. The fanbase is rich lawyers and engineers who live in Jackson, Memphis, Birmingham, and Atlanta. Dallas too.

As soon as I saw three consecutive 3-8 MSU teams have 21 successful tailgates in even worse hot weather than you have in Durham, I quit defending Duke and Duke's utter abandonment of football culture. The funny thing is that, during the 1980s-2000s, MSU was better at baseball and MBB most of the time than FB. It's not like it was a heyday. They just care about FB in the SEC. Caring by a lot of people counts.

This has to do with culture. If you can't seat people anywhere near the field because of a stupid track, fail. If you can't make water easily available in hellish Southern temperatures, fail. If the bathrooms regularly smell like doo-doo, like they did when in I was in school, fail. If all the food is terrible fried crap in a chi-chi market like the Triangle, fail. (This is actually an advantage in MS--they like terrible fried crap). If your approach to skyboxes is that of 1983, fail. If your own fans disdain the team because the MBB team is better, fail. If you have almost no students at the game, fail. (Yes, I know the size of the Ugrad student body and their proportion of 33,941--but a few dozen won't do it).

I think Cut has the patience of Job.

People say we need to win. OK, probably. But as Della points out, we need to quit failing at the gameday experience. We could go 10-2 and WW would still look like no one had any idea how football works, except Jim Sumner, who's still holding the season ticket fort down, God bless him. All this stuff about how we just need to win was cute 19 years ago when I was a frosh. It's not anymore. Duke has abandoned the culture. Without getting too pessimistic about the larger forces at work, I still wonder why we're too damn dumb to let people hydrate themselves in a harsh subtropical climate.

I think when we hired Cut, I had a last flash of optimism. Smart guy. SEC guy. Manning teacher. Wooo. He's great. But that isn't going to make an anti-football school like football, much less get some fifth grader from Holt ES in the seats while everyone dehydrates in the sun for the Duke-Troy game.

I used to be a staunch defender. I used to be the guy who went to his job at NC State wearing a Duke hat the day after Clemson beat us in FB by six touchdowns. But I'm done. It's not about the on-field product anymore. It's about Duke people's failure to understand how this works. Given that Duke is primarily a research university, I can live with this.


http://newsoffice.duke.edu/all-about-duke/quick-facts-about-duke Apparently we have 34,863 employess including Duke University Health System through June 30, 2012, plus 14,591 students as of the Fall 2012. That is 49,454 who come to Duke to work or to study on a given business day. Wake Forest has nothng close to that number. Yet after seveal home games this season with mediocre attendance at disadvantageous times, and with opponents not expected to travel well to Durham, we may be scaling back our renovation plans.

Had the ACC not come together after the defection of Maryland with our GORs, the Big Ten made their move on UVa and Ga Tech (or FL State), there was a fair amount of chatter (including in reputable media outlets) that folks were going to be surprised by what the SEC may have intended to do next. It may have been Duke and North Carolina to the SEC to make 16.

Without wanting to get into the re-alignment discussion, futures schedules are a consideration. In the off chance we were to become a member of the SEC at some point, I think we would draw a minimum of 10k more on average to home games in Durham. If we scheduled home and home series (say one a year) with major Football powers, like an Ohio State, Alabama, our home attendance would go up quite a bit. If we scheduled home and home games with regional teams, like ECU, NC State (as a non conference game), even Appalachian State, our attendance at Wade would improve. I think even doing nothing with the schedule, following through with the Bostock renderings, closing in the bowl, arriving at 44k capacity (if we do not reduce capacity by going to chairbacks), would improve atmosphere by so much that attendance would improve, even without further improvements in Duke's competitiveness in Football.

I think we had better student attendance when 'Tailgate' was allowed.

I think the attendance issues will resolve over time if we continue to work on Football as a priority. However, if we try to import something like a Wake Forest hill to a setting where it does not fit, rather than plan to enclose the bowl as proposed in the latest Bostock renderings, I would be less sanguine about our prospects into the future.

[Duvall]

Putting aside the question of whether Duke is worthy to play the same sport as the schools of the August and Holy Southeastern Conference, I still think this basically comes down to three things:

1) Duke football has been mostly terrible for nearly half a century;
2) Duke football was historically awful for nearly a full decade of Roof-Franks futility; and
3) Attendance at sporting events in general and college football in particular is collapsing everywhere, not just at Duke.

For the first two, all we can do is let the bad times recede into memory. (Fortunately, that will happen no matter what we do.) For the third, we can only look at what other schools are doing in response to similar problems and try to adopt their solutions.

[throatybeard]

Apparently we have 34,863 employess including Duke University Health System through June 30, 2012

Great, but 25K of them are Carolina fans, 9K don't care about sports, and what, that leaves 863 we might pick off.

I mean, I exaggerate, but by how much?

Duvall brings up a salient point. Even the real football schools are starting to have trouble with attendance. I'm too lazy to go get it back from my fb page, but Georgia is having trouble filling their student section. Georgia. That state has the ninth most people in the union they tried to secede from, and only two IA programs, the other being Tech. (NC is tenth, but has five IA schools).

One of the biggest problems there is that the kids cannot stand to be disconnected from the internet for the entirety of a game. Now, you can say that's horrible, but it is a fact. It just is. I went a to sold-out Cardinals game a couple weeks ago, and had a second ticket for my wife, and Wolf could get in for free coz he's little, but he wouldn't nap yet. So the plan was, I would go, and they would show up when he was napped and we could take some cute pictures in LF, which we did.

You can't get a damn signal in Busch. I don't even need to tweet about the game, or perv on some girl's facebook as if I were 21yo--I'm just looking to communicate by voice call or...no, not even call, just text--hey wifey, here's where I'm at. You can't even get texts in and out. Yo, wife, here's my 20. Can't even do that. Texting is the current equivalent of a telegram in 1940. If you were in a populated place in 1940 and people couldn't get a telegram, they would think it was BS. If I can't text you, I might as well be in Somalia. First world problems? Sure, but still a disincentive to attendance given current circumstances. Now I love baseball and I want to be there (and I'm old), but mostly, people don't care about being at the event anymore. And a big part of that is smartphone communications.

And a game at UGA has at least twice as many people at it as an MLB game. Probably four times if you think about the tailgates. I think the football stadiums need extra cell towers screwed to every five yardline increment, every urinal, and UGA IX or whatever one he is.

The NFL is having problems with meat-space attendance. The NFL. Probably the most successful league in the world, unless it's the English Premier League. People have flat panels in their homes. ESPN took a poll a couple years ago, where would you most want to watch an NFL game. Answer: 82% at home, 9% at sports bar, 9% in stadium.

l'll enjoy re-reading this same discussion in a new thread when people are ululating about there being 550 undergrads at Duke MBB v East Western State over Thanksgiving. Wait, no I won't. At least then the people there will probably be able to send an outgoing text.

[J.Blink]

Much has been said about the positives and negatives of game day at Wallace Wade (I park in the Iron Duke lot, but Duke has aggressively and maliciously involved free parking over the past few years), but I haven't seen anybody mention one thing that I find incredibly annoying... That guy in the red shirt. TV time outs.

The number--and length--of the TV time are immensely disruptive. They break up the flow of the game, make any touch down instantly a snooze fest, and just make the whole game drag on interminably. Maybe I'm strange, but I just want to start booing when I see the TV timeout guy step out onto the field.

The NCAA thinks it's wise to introduce new rules to try to speed up the game (clock changes this year), but nothing is ever said about TV!

I'm not a soccer fan, but I really admire how soccer as a sport has handled television. The American sports have sold their soul.

[BigWayne]

Much has been said about the positives and negatives of game day at Wallace Wade (I park in the Iron Duke lot, but Duke has aggressively and maliciously involved free parking over the past few years), but I haven't seen anybody mention one thing that I find incredibly annoying... That guy in the red shirt. TV time outs.

The number--and length--of the TV time are immensely disruptive. They break up the flow of the game, make any touch down instantly a snooze fest, and just make the whole game drag on interminably. Maybe I'm strange, but I just want to start booing when I see the TV timeout guy step out onto the field.

The NCAA thinks it's wise to introduce new rules to try to speed up the game (clock changes this year), but nothing is ever said about TV!

I'm not a soccer fan, but I really admire how soccer as a sport has handled television. The American sports have sold their soul.
Maybe nobody mentioned it in this thread, but I hear it from my Dad about every time I see him.
His pet peeves about live sports events in no particular order:

TV timeouts
Start times of games shifted to accommodate TV.
Loud music at stoppages.

[DukieInKansas]

The suites and club seats will have access to alcohol, food, before during and after the games. Duke might expand what they offer now in hospitality tents. Get some corporate contributions toward the stadium.....the "Anheuser Bush Concourse" at Wallace Wade Stadium.....sounds pretty inviting.

Beer at Wade, its been done before. When I was at Duke I recall vaguely that we were allowed to roll kegs into the stadium for Football games. There might be a connection between those kegs and the vagueness of my recollection:)


I was involved with successfully getting a few kegs into the stands, but I wouldn't exactly say they were "allowed." I also remember one we didn't get in that had to be consumed just outside the fence. Of course this was all before Reagan raised the drinking age.

Those weren't kegs - they were floats! At least during my years at Duke, you could count on House P to come in carrying a dead Yellow Jacket/Terp/etc that was just big enough to cover the keg. They would march around the track and then dump the dead opposition mascot and tap the keg.

[J.Blink]

Maybe nobody mentioned it in this thread, but I hear it from my Dad about every time I see him.
His pet peeves about live sports events in no particular order:

TV timeouts
Start times of games shifted to accommodate TV.
Loud music at stoppages.


Now I feel all curmudgeonly! Ah well, it is what it is--I guess I should embrace it. I'm in my thirties, but all of those things bother me (I've taken to bringing earplugs to WW for the pre-game music/noise blasting). I don't particularly mind the food (though I do miss Chick-fil-A and the free 3-touchdown sandwich!), the bathrooms, the seats, or the track, but I do loathe the loudness and the timeouts.

[Dev11]

Start times of games shifted to accommodate TV.

I find it highly annoying to try to plan a weekend in advance without knowing when the games will be on. Not only is that an issue for people attending games, but for those of us who want to organize game watching parties, it's quite difficult.

[BigWayne]

Those weren't kegs - they were floats! At least during my years at Duke, you could count on House P to come in carrying a dead Yellow Jacket/Terp/etc that was just big enough to cover the keg. They would march around the track and then dump the dead opposition mascot and tap the keg.

Yep...3629

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

As we discuss attendance at football games, we can monitor the Zero Dark Thursday party in Chapel Hill tonight. Shirts with this theme have been on sale for some while. Some Carolina fans are very excited about the all black Carolina uniforms, part of what is being termed the Tar Pit series. This is a game on a school night with a 60% chance of rain. Will the stadium be filled? Will the fans stay to the end?;)

[Faustus]

SCHOOL NIGHT? In Chapel Hill? (OK, somebody had to slip this in... ;) )

[TruBlu]

Depending on the amount (and type) of beverage consumed at the tailgate party, TV timeouts might not be such a bad thing. Just saying.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

SCHOOL NIGHT? In Chapel Hill? (OK, somebody had to slip this in... ;) )

This was discussed in our section in Wallace Wade at the last football game. The conclusion of the roundtable discussion was that for these two schools it's probably less disruptive than would be the case for some other colleges or universities which have Friday classes.;)

[throatybeard]

I feel this is the appropriate place to mention that UNC's uniforms in the Miami game were so ugly than "ugly" fails as a descriptor. They were almost Oregony.

[-bdbd]

I feel this is the appropriate place to mention that UNC's uniforms in the Miami game were so ugly than "ugly" fails as a descriptor. They were almost Oregony.


Terpish???


:confused:

[AncientPsychicT]

I feel this is the appropriate place to mention that UNC's uniforms in the Miami game were so ugly than "ugly" fails as a descriptor. They were almost Oregony.

Tarrible.

I'll see myself out....

[CameronBornAndBred]

There are over 1,100 tix available for the Duke/NCSU game available on Stubhub. That is insane. Obviously, to sell a ticket, you have to own a ticket. SO that is over 1,100 people that are saying right now that they have no intention on going. Hopefully most of those are either bought by Duke fans or go unsold.

[uh_no]

There are over 1,100 tix available for the Duke/NCSU game available on Stubhub. That is insane. Obviously, to sell a ticket, you have to own a ticket. SO that is over 1,100 people that are saying right now that they have no intention on going. Hopefully most of those are either bought by Duke fans or go unsold.

not at all

there are companies whose sole existence is buying tickets to games and then putting them on stub hub

I wouldn't be surprised if the athletics department tried to undersell people on stub hub as well

there are also people who want to the game, but can be bought out for a price

but yeah, I'm sure there are some people who don't want to go....they might have extra tickets in a mini-pack, or are season ticket holders that can't be there

[CameronBornAndBred]

I wouldn't be surprised if the athletics department tried to undersell people on stub hub as well


They should....but their answer was to sell tix to the NCSU game bundled with CTC tix for basically $30 or more. (See a post I put somewhere above for those numbers.) I laugh at any company that thinks an investment in Duke football tix is a smart idea. (You are correct, I know they exist, and I laugh at the thought.)

[uh_no]

They should....but their answer was to sell tix to the NCSU game bundled with CTC tix for basically $30 or more. (See a post I put somewhere above for those numbers.) I laugh at any company that thinks an investment in Duke football tix is a smart idea. (You are correct, I know they exist, and I laugh at the thought.)

do they ever have a fan forum or something?

I know a ways back wojo went and met with a bunch of student groups (frats and the like) to figure out what they could do to get them more involved with bball...has duke football done anything with the community at large? it seems like they mostly just throw tar at the wall and see what sticks

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

do they ever have a fan forum or something?

I know a ways back wojo went and met with a bunch of student groups (frats and the like) to figure out what they could do to get them more involved with bball...has duke football done anything with the community at large? it seems like they mostly just throw tar at the wall and see what sticks
For the first 2-3 years or so, Coach Cutcliffe met with students every week or so (Cokes with Coach Cutcliffe or something like that) back when he was marketing the program in addition to coaching it. Don't think that continues... partly because student attendance was low and partly because the program was getting better and taking more of his time to actually coach instead of market.

[uh_no]

For the first 2-3 years or so, Coach Cutcliffe met with students every week or so (Cokes with Coach Cutcliffe or something like that) back when he was marketing the program in addition to coaching it. Don't think that continues... partly because student attendance was low and partly because the program was getting better and taking more of his time to actually coach instead of market.

yeah, I thought those were great! he would show film and explain what we were seeing

I had heard he used to teach a class at tennessee about football...that would be cool

[CameronBornAndBred]

http://www.stubhub.com/duke-football-tickets/duke-vs-nc-state-11-9-2013-4249100/

Over 1,000 tickets available for the NCSU game on stubhub. (Link followed from an ad DBR's new front page). As cheap as $20. Want a great pre-game atmosphere? Come join us at our tailgate, we'll be posting our menu next weekend. Food, fun and beer always guaranteed. Either we will be going for win # 7 or #6, which means that if we win, we are going to a bowl, or a better bowl. Very much like the UNC game was last year.
Since this thread is titled the "attendance challenge", I challenge you to bring yourself, family, and/or a friend out and help us make Wallace Wade an amazing place to experience a game. For the first timers, or the ones that haven't been in a long while, this game should be a good one to welcome you (back) into the fold.
Win or lose this week, we'll have a week off after to prepare and heal for the Wuffies. LGD!

[uh_no]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/9880250/alabama-crimson-tide-punish-students-leaving-early

just punish students who don't come and leave early by banning them from coming to games! it's a surefire way to keep butts in seats!

[DU82]

Looks like a lot of no-shows, who will undoubtedly receive class credit... (From the N&O a couple of minutes ago.)

3636

[killerleft]

Looks like a lot of no-shows, who will undoubtedly receive class credit... (From the N&O a couple of minutes ago.)

3636

But that's The House That Julius Built! And isn't that pointy tower where they lock up PJ when he isn't practicing or playing ball nowadays?

[wilko]

http://www.stubhub.com/duke-football-tickets/duke-vs-nc-state-11-9-2013-4249100/

Over 1,000 tickets available for the NCSU game on stubhub. For the first timers, or the ones that haven't been in a long while, this game should be a good one to welcome you (back) into the fold. LGD!

My 11 and 9 yo boys are hype to go to the State game.
We've been to the NCCU and Troy games this yr and they have friends who are State fans... They are into it!

After whooping VaTech, If we dont sell out the game... we dont deserve another win.
I've always said that I'll give them more support when they get more wins.... well no there's just no excuse.
See y'all at the game!

[throatybeard]

My 11 and 9 yo boys are hype to go to the State game.
We've been to the NCCU and Troy games this yr and they have friends who are State fans... They are into it!

After whooping VaTech, If we dont sell out the game... we dont deserve another win.
I've always said that I'll give them more support when they get more wins.... well no there's just no excuse.
See y'all at the game!

State is usually good for ten or fifteen thousand at Wallace Wade. Don't know if they will be this year, since they're struggling.

[DU82]

S

State is usually good for ten or fifteen thousand at Wallace Wade. Don't know if they will be this year, since they're struggling.

not this year. With eight home games, their fans aren't interested in traveling even 20 miles for another game. That might change if they win this week against the cheatin' rams.

[throatybeard]

S


not this year. With eight home games, their fans aren't interested in traveling even 20 miles for another game. That might change if they win this week against the cheatin' rams.

I see.

One of the worst experiences of my life (I'm not complaining, just reporting) was the 2001 State at Duke game. By that point, I was employed by State, but back at Duke in the English PhD. I think I remember the box score ATT exactly, 35,206. That may not be right, but even if it isn't the memory is real in my head and the ATT was over capacity. The highlight of the game was when Franks and crew couldn't even get the defense on the field in time and Philip Rivers actually waited for us to get onsides. I've never seen that at any level of football before.

The best thing I can imagine for Duke FB is over-capacity crowds. The worst thing I can imagine for Duke FB is over-capacity crowds.

That game is instructive, because while we all complain about ATT at Wade, that game was hell, despite only being about 1300 over capacity. It was in the high 80s despite being in November, and the concourse is asphalt, and the stands reflect sunlight, and they ran out of water to buy in the second quarter, and that water wasn't even cold. The sheer number of people made it about impossible to go to the bathroom. You could barely move on the concourse, you couldn't hydrate, and the game was...let's not talk about the game.

Lower the field, remove the track, made Thad Lewis taller, start Greg Paulus at QB, win a lot of games--none of it matters for the fan experience, which is abysmal, compared to normal college FB places. The place needs a major overhaul to join the mid-to-late 20th century in terms of amenities. I'm not saying we need Jerry Jones skyboxes, but the place is a grease fire when it comes to moving human beings around. Della says we need food trucks. I'd be all for that, but where would you put them when everyone is stumbling to the horrible restrooms?

[duke09hms]

I see.

One of the worst experiences of my life (I'm not complaining, just reporting) was the 2001 State at Duke game. By that point, I was employed by State, but back at Duke in the English PhD. I think I remember the box score ATT exactly, 35,206. That may not be right, but even if it isn't the memory is real in my head and the ATT was over capacity. The highlight of the game was when Franks and crew couldn't even get the defense on the field in time and Philip Rivers actually waited for us to get onsides. I've never seen that at any level of football before.

The best thing I can imagine for Duke FB is over-capacity crowds. The worst thing I can imagine for Duke FB is over-capacity crowds.

That game is instructive, because while we all complain about ATT at Wade, that game was hell, despite only being about 1300 over capacity. It was in the high 80s despite being in November, and the concourse is asphalt, and the stands reflect sunlight, and they ran out of water to buy in the second quarter, and that water wasn't even cold. The sheer number of people made it about impossible to go to the bathroom. You could barely move on the concourse, you couldn't hydrate, and the game was...let's not talk about the game.

Lower the field, remove the track, made Thad Lewis taller, start Greg Paulus at QB, win a lot of games--none of it matters for the fan experience, which is abysmal, cmpared to normal college FB places. The place needs a major overhaul to join the mid-to-late 20th century in terms of amenities. I'm not saying we need Jerry Jones skyboxes, but the place is a grease fire when it comes to moving human beings around. Della says we need food trucks. I'd be all for that, but where would you put them when everyone is stumbling to the horrible restrooms?

That was 12 years ago. A lot of improvements have been made to the fan experience in recent years. New bathrooms, sufficient water, and the like. I believe more are on the way too, as soon as the last home game is played. The track is going to be removed and the stadium lowered as well.

[throatybeard]

The track is going to be removed and the stadium lowered as well.

Please tell me they're going to make Thad taller. Hell, Buffalo could win the AFC East!

[DU82]

I see.

One of the worst experiences cof my life (I'm not complaining, just reporting) was the 2001 State at Duke game. By that point, I was employed by State, but back at Duke in the English PhD. I think I remember the box score ATT exactly, 35,206. That may not be right, but even if it isn't the memory is real in my head and the ATT was over capacity. The highlight of the game was when Franks and crew couldn't even get the defense on the field in time and Philip Rivers actually waited for us to get onsides. I've never seen that at any level of football before.

The best thing I can imagine for Duke FB is over-capacity crowds. The worst thing I can imagine for Duke FB is over-capacity crowds.

That game is instructive, because while we all complain about ATT at Wade, that game was hell, despite only being about 1300 over capacity. It was in the high 80s despite being in November, and the concourse is asphalt, and the stands reflect sunlight, and they ran out of water to buy in the second quarter, and that water wasn't even cold. The sheer number of people made it about impossible to go to the bathroom. You could barely move on the concourse, you couldn't hydrate, and the game was...let's not talk about the game.

Lower the field, remove the track, made Thad Lewis taller, start Greg Paulus at QB, win a lot of games--none of it matters for the fan experience, which is abysmal, compared to normal college FB places. The place needs a major overhaul to join the mid-to-late 20th century in terms of amenities. I'm not saying we need Jerry Jones skyboxes, but the place is a grease fire when it comes to moving human beings around. Della says we need food trucks. I'd be all for that, but where would you put them when everyone is stumbling to the horrible restrooms?

As somebody else said, that was 12 years ago. Perhaps you should come down off the arch ( don't jump off just because of Johnny Gomes) and attend a game in WW again. It cetainly sounds as if you havent done that in a few years. Neither Asack plays for Duke any longer, so no need to continue to reference them any more.

IIRC, the Yoh building was being built then, and I remember the concourse on the visiting side was constricted. Add the Devil trying to get to that side in a golf cart, and getting stuck with nobody letting him through to unclog things, and you have a mess. Since then, there hasnt been an issue, even with the full house when Alabama came to town.

[devil84]

I see.

One of the worst experiences of my life (I'm not complaining, just reporting) was the 2001 State at Duke game. By that point, I was employed by State, but back at Duke in the English PhD. I think I remember the box score ATT exactly, 35,206. That may not be right, but even if it isn't the memory is real in my head and the ATT was over capacity. The highlight of the game was when Franks and crew couldn't even get the defense on the field in time and Philip Rivers actually waited for us to get onsides. I've never seen that at any level of football before.

The best thing I can imagine for Duke FB is over-capacity crowds. The worst thing I can imagine for Duke FB is over-capacity crowds.

That game is instructive, because while we all complain about ATT at Wade, that game was hell, despite only being about 1300 over capacity. It was in the high 80s despite being in November, and the concourse is asphalt, and the stands reflect sunlight, and they ran out of water to buy in the second quarter, and that water wasn't even cold. The sheer number of people made it about impossible to go to the bathroom. You could barely move on the concourse, you couldn't hydrate, and the game was...let's not talk about the game.

Lower the field, remove the track, made Thad Lewis taller, start Greg Paulus at QB, win a lot of games--none of it matters for the fan experience, which is abysmal, compared to normal college FB places. The place needs a major overhaul to join the mid-to-late 20th century in terms of amenities. I'm not saying we need Jerry Jones skyboxes, but the place is a grease fire when it comes to moving human beings around. Della says we need food trucks. I'd be all for that, but where would you put them when everyone is stumbling to the horrible restrooms?

THIS proves my point: Duke Football has to overcome so much more than the on-field product. Those who suffered through abysmal experiences just cannot block those from their minds to even contemplate attending again. When well-connected alumni use terms like "abysmal," "grease fire," "horrible," and "needs a major overall to join the mid-to-late 20th century," it's an uphill battle for Duke Football. Duke has fixed a lot of these problems and the word just isn't getting out. Or the word isn't penetrating past those traumatic experiences of past games ("traumatic" is not hyperbole: many people, including my mom, have suffered heat-related conditions due to the high heat, high humidity, and lack of hydration).

Gimmicks, like the food trucks that are part of the Durham culture, might just be one way (of many) to lure back some fans. Something like that, that can be advertised by both Duke Athletics and by the food trucks themselves, will show the fans that the game-day experience has changed. The facilities (including bathrooms) have been significantly upgraded, the water situation has changed. But I really don't want Duke running an "Our game day experience doesn't suck anymore!" campaign, so they've got to find some other way to lure back my mom and my spouse (me and my kids are ready to go) after several experiences similar to Throaty's, with the additional trauma of heat exhaustion.