Then again, no place is perfect

[weezie]

http://www.themillions.com/2013/07/the-greatest-american-novel-9-experts-share-their-opinions.html

Book #4 chosen by Prof Tom Ferraro, Duke University. Huh?

[Olympic Fan]

http://www.themillions.com/2013/07/the-greatest-american-novel-9-experts-share-their-opinions.html

Book #4 chosen by Prof Tom Ferraro, Duke University. Huh?

Interesting list -- interesting how the nine "experts" mostly choose novels in their fields.

Last month, Entertainment Weekly did a "Best" issue, ranking the 100 best movies, TB shows, Broadway productions, albums and books (they said books, but only novels made the list) of all time. Like all such lists, they were interesting debate fodder ... nothing really outrageous in most categories (except maybe albums -- Revolver No. 1 and Sgt. Pepper doesn't make the top 100?)

But the book list was so absurd that it wasn't worth discussing ...

Just for sake of argument, I'd cast my vote for the great American novel with Huck Finn ... although it's hard not to vote for The Great American Novel as the great American novel (seriously, it is one of my favorites -- that and Catch 22 are the two I re-read frequently)

[sagegrouse]

http://www.themillions.com/2013/07/the-greatest-american-novel-9-experts-share-their-opinions.html

Book #4 chosen by Prof Tom Ferraro, Duke University. Huh?

Money quotes (I hate having to search through referenced articles, and so do you....):

Tom Ferraro picked Mario Puzo's The Godfather, managing to overlook, as did the other voters, Faullner, Fitzgerald, Hemingway and the other icons of my youth at Duke.

Duke prof Priscilla Wald, also among the voters, selected Gertrude Stein's The Making of Americans.

sagegrouse

[Bob Green]

Interesting list --

Just for sake of argument, I'd cast my vote for the great American novel with Huck Finn ...

It is time for me to revisit Huck Finn as I have not read it in a long time. Personally, my favorite novel is For Whom the Bell Tolls but that one can't be considered the great American novel. Perhaps Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath or East of Eden.


... nothing really outrageous in most categories (except maybe albums -- Revolver No. 1 and Sgt. Pepper doesn't make the top 100?)


I'm sure I could find room for Sgt. Pepper on my personal Top 100 list. However, Revolver would definitely be #1.

[weezie]

Angle of Repose, by Wallace Stegner

[Jim3k]

I'm sure I could find room for Sgt. Pepper on my personal Top 100 list. However, Revolver would definitely be #1.

As a reminder: Rolling Stones' top 500. Linking to to the top 10 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/500-greatest-albums-of-all-time-20120531/the-beatles-the-white-album-20120524), where you will find in reverse order, White Album, Rubber Soul, Revolver and Sgt. Pepper. Hard to argue with any of it. The entire list is damn fine, but the top 50 is probably something we can all agree on, even if we prefer a different order.

[77devil]

As a reminder: Rolling Stones' top 500. White Album, Rubber Soul, Revolver and Sgt. Pepper. Hard to argue with any of it. The entire list is damn fine, but the top 50 is probably something we can all agree on, even if we prefer a different order.

Well said. Can't imagine a list without Sgt. Peppers in the top 10 let alone absent from the top 100. Entertainment Weekly is a rag if there ever was one. Probably done deliberately to create buzz.

[OldPhiKap]

Well said. Can't imagine a list without Sgt. Peppers in the top 10 let alone absent from the top 100. Entertainment Weekly is a rag if there ever was one. Probably done deliberately to create buzz.

Dark Side of the Moon not in the top 10? Blasphemy.

[Jim3k]

No place (list) is perfect for sure.

As for the great American novel, I can't say. Indeed, I don't like to make such lists because I always leave something off that I never read (or don't remember well enough), thereby exposing my ignorant Philistine self.

But...timing itself to lists like this is...gulp...the ABA Journal. Its list is of the twenty-five (six) greatest law novels. (http://www.abajournal.com/gallery/25greatestnovels) The link takes you to a page that shows a poll. The poll itself is the list. Some of these might even be on a respectable great American novel list. Others aren't American but qualify as Great Literature of the World.

Anyway, I thought a link would be worthwhile. Notably, as in the law, some of the 'judges' dissented. Their comments are kinda fun.

[Olympic Fan]

I usually like lists ... they are good for promoting discussion and debate. I realize there is no correct answer to such lists -- we could argue all day whether Sgt. Pepper should be the No. 1 album of all time or No. 10 or somewhere in between. It's only when you do something absurd like leave it out of your top 100 that the list becomes so ridiculous that you don't pay it any mind.

I've been ruminating about the great American novels since I read this thread. I found this list of the top 100 American novels that I think it pretty good:

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/730.The_Great_American_Novel

It has Great Gatsby, To Kill a Mockingbird and Huckleberry Finn as 1-2-3. Obviously, I think Huck is No. 1 (and I think this list has Red Badge of Courage way too low), but any list that has Catch 22 No. 10, A Confederacy of Dunces No. 19 and Fahrenheit 451 No. 20 ain't all bad.

Just for fun, my personal top 10:
1. Huckleberry Finn, Twain
2. Moby Dick, Melville
3. The Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck
4. The Red Badge of Courage, Crane
5. To Kill a Mockingbird, Lee
6. The Sound and the Fury, Faulkner (I really wanted to keep it to one per author in the top 10 -- toughest call was this or Absolom, Absolom)
7. The Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald
8. The Catcher in the Rye, Salinger
9. Catch 22, Heller
10. The Public Burning, Coover

PS The more I think about it ... The Godfather No. 1? The Godfather??? This guy teaches at Duke? I wonder what he's got at No. 2 -- Jacqueline Susann's Valley of the Dolls? Or something by Tom Clancy?

[Jim3k]

I usually like lists ... they are good for promoting discussion and debate. I realize there is no correct answer to such lists -- we could argue all day whether Sgt. Pepper should be the No. 1 album of all time or No. 10 or somewhere in between. It's only when you do something absurd like leave it out of your top 100 that the list becomes so ridiculous that you don't pay it any mind.

I've been ruminating about the great American novels since I read this thread. I found this list of the top 100 American novels that I think it pretty good:

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/730.The_Great_American_Novel

It has Great Gatsby, To Kill a Mockingbird and Huckleberry Finn as 1-2-3. Obviously, I think Huck is No. 1 (and I think this list has Red Badge of Courage way too low), but any list that has Catch 22 No. 10, A Confederacy of Dunces No. 19 and Fahrenheit 451 No. 20 ain't all bad.

Just for fun, my personal top 10:
1. Huckleberry Finn, Twain
2. Moby Dick, Melville
3. The Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck
4. The Red Badge of Courage, Crane
5. To Kill a Mockingbird, Lee
6. The Sound and the Fury, Faulkner (I really wanted to keep it to one per author in the top 10 -- toughest call was this or Absolom, Absolom)
7. The Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald
8. The Catcher in the Rye, Salinger
9. Catch 22, Heller
10. The Public Burning, Coover

PS The more I think about it ... The Godfather No. 1? The Godfather??? This guy teaches at Duke? I wonder what he's got at No. 2 -- Jacqueline Susann's Valley of the Dolls? Or something by Tom Clancy?

Your top ten are all classics no doubt. But at least two, IMO, are not long enough to qualify as novels. Red Badge is only about 140 pages and Gatsby is usually slightly over 200. As brilliant as those works are, I regard that length as a novelette, not a novel. Two hundred pages would seem to me to be the absolute minimum, but I'd prefer at least two hundred-fifty. (Yeah, I understand substance over length, but there's gotta be a line somewhere.)

[Non-sequitur: Some of Hemingway's short stories have incredible brilliance as well, but they are in the 25 page range. E.g., Snows of Kilimanjaro, The Killers].

[77devil]

I usually like lists ... they are good for promoting discussion and debate. I realize there is no correct answer to such lists -- we could argue all day whether Sgt. Pepper should be the No. 1 album of all time or No. 10 or somewhere in between. It's only when you do something absurd like leave it out of your top 100 that the list becomes so ridiculous that you don't pay it any mind.

I've been ruminating about the great American novels since I read this thread. I found this list of the top 100 American novels that I think it pretty good:

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/730.The_Great_American_Novel

It has Great Gatsby, To Kill a Mockingbird and Huckleberry Finn as 1-2-3. Obviously, I think Huck is No. 1 (and I think this list has Red Badge of Courage way too low), but any list that has Catch 22 No. 10, A Confederacy of Dunces No. 19 and Fahrenheit 451 No. 20 ain't all bad.

Just for fun, my personal top 10:
1. Huckleberry Finn, Twain
2. Moby Dick, Melville
3. The Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck
4. The Red Badge of Courage, Crane
5. To Kill a Mockingbird, Lee
6. The Sound and the Fury, Faulkner (I really wanted to keep it to one per author in the top 10 -- toughest call was this or Absolom, Absolom)
7. The Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald
8. The Catcher in the Rye, Salinger
9. Catch 22, Heller
10. The Public Burning, Coover

PS The more I think about it ... The Godfather No. 1? The Godfather??? This guy teaches at Duke? I wonder what he's got at No. 2 -- Jacqueline Susann's Valley of the Dolls? Or something by Tom Clancy?


It's hard to disagree with this or the Good Reads list except I would drop Catch 22 and add The Sun Also Rises. I enjoyed Catch 22 but it can't be elevated above Hemingway; it's not close IMO.

I've been rereading many great American novels periodically for the last 20 years with much enjoyment and new insights the second time around.

[OldPhiKap]

It's hard to disagree with this or the Good Reads list except I would drop Catch 22 and add The Sun Also Rises. I enjoyed Catch 22 but it can't be elevated above Hemingway; it's not close IMO.

I've been rereading many great American novels periodically for the last 20 years with much enjoyment and new insights the second time around.

I am partial to Old Man and the Sea although most folks I know really dislike it because "nothing happens" (a sentiment with which I disagree).

I second Confederacy of Dunces as one of the great modern American novels and one of the most interesting character pieces out there. Certainly not the social commentary of many on the list above, but a wonderful and rich novel.

[Bob Green]

There are a lot of novels on that list which I really enjoyed reading, such as the previously mentioned The Sun Also Rises and Confederacy of Dunces. Three more in the Top 50, which stand out to me are: For Whom the Bell Tolls; Rabbit, Run; and, Slaughterhouse-Five.

[Olympic Fan]

Your top ten are all classics no doubt. But at least two, IMO, are not long enough to qualify as novels. Red Badge is only about 140 pages and Gatsby is usually slightly over 200. As brilliant as those works are, I regard that length as a novelette, not a novel. Two hundred pages would seem to me to be the absolute minimum, but I'd prefer at least two hundred-fifty. (Yeah, I understand substance over length, but there's gotta be a line somewhere.)

Bob, I've got to admit that I've never heard either Red Badge or Gatsby described as a novelette or a novella. Both are shorter than -- say, Golden Bowl or Hubbard's Battlefield Earth -- but I think you are the first person I've ever seen deny that they are novels. They are both included in every top American novel list I can find (including the one I linked).

I agree that I probably underrated Hemingway. He's not my favorite ... I was always put off by his macho posturing. But that's not a good reason to undervalue his work.

But allow me to make this argument. What are we looking for when we look for the Great American Novel? Is the best novel written by an American? Or is it a novel that captures the essense of America and Americans. I've always found Hemingway's themes -- usually based around expatriate Americans -- a little divorced from the American experience. He's very much like Henry James in that way. If you list the greatest novel written by Americans, yes ... but the Great American novel ... no. Not for me.

BTW: As long as we are talking about Hemingway and James -- The Old Man and the Sea and The Turn of the Screw -- now those are what I would call novellas. (Bob, I have Red Badge and The Old Man in the same Prestwich House edition -- the Red Badge is 24 pages longer (152 to 128) ... my line for novella/novel is somewhere in those 24 pages).

[OldPhiKap]

Bob, I've got to admit that I've never heard either Red Badge or Gatsby described as a novelette or a novella. Both are shorter than -- say, Golden Bowl or Hubbard's Battlefield Earth -- but I think you are the first person I've ever seen deny that they are novels. They are both included in every top American novel list I can find (including the one I linked).

I agree that I probably underrated Hemingway. He's not my favorite ... I was always put off by his macho posturing. But that's not a good reason to undervalue his work.

But allow me to make this argument. What are we looking for when we look for the Great American Novel? Is the best novel written by an American? Or is it a novel that captures the essense of America and Americans. I've always found Hemingway's themes -- usually based around expatriate Americans -- a little divorced from the American experience. He's very much like Henry James in that way. If you list the greatest novel written by Americans, yes ... but the Great American novel ... no. Not for me.

BTW: As long as we are talking about Hemingway and James -- The Old Man and the Sea and The Turn of the Screw -- now those are what I would call novellas. (Bob, I have Red Badge and The Old Man in the same Prestwich House edition -- the Red Badge is 24 pages longer (152 to 128) ... my line for novella/novel is somewhere in those 24 pages).


If we are talking about a novel that captures the essence of America, I would suggest that Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry would be worthy of consideration. (And would recommend his son James' music as well -- Choctaw Bingo certainly describes a slice of America in very colorful ways).

[JohnGalt]

I usually like lists ...

Just for fun, my personal top 10:
1. Huckleberry Finn, Twain
2. Moby Dick, Melville
3. The Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck
4. The Red Badge of Courage, Crane
5. To Kill a Mockingbird, Lee
6. The Sound and the Fury, Faulkner (I really wanted to keep it to one per author in the top 10 -- toughest call was this or Absolom, Absolom)
7. The Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald
8. The Catcher in the Rye, Salinger
9. Catch 22, Heller
10. The Public Burning, Coover

That's a good list but - and correct me if I'm wrong - only the Public Burning was published within the last 50 years. And that was in the mid 70s, right?

No love for anything more modern?


It's hard to disagree with this or the Good Reads list except I would drop Catch 22 and add The Sun Also Rises.


I am partial to Old Man and the Sea although most folks I know really dislike it because "nothing happens".

I agree. Hemingway is one of my favorites, although A Farewell to Arms is his #1 work in my opinion. Some of his descriptions of the weariness of war are so incredibly moving while remaining so incredibly concise that each time I read it it's like experiencing it for the first time all over again.

[OldPhiKap]

That's a good list but - and correct me if I'm wrong - only the Public Burning was published within the last 50 years. And that was in the mid 70s, right?

No love for anything more modern?





I agree. Hemingway is one of my favorites, although A Farewell to Arms is his #1 work in my opinion. Some of his descriptions of the weariness of war are so incredibly moving while remaining so incredibly concise that each time I read it it's like experiencing it for the first time all over again.


Surely, a man named John Galt has a favorite. . . .

Then again, maybe not. {shrug}

[77devil]

I should add that Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is improperly on the Good Reads list. It is not a novel. I have it on good authority-HST himself-that it is, in fact, non fiction. Of course, he was very drunk on Wild Turkey at the time, and later was essentially dragged off the Page Auditorium stage. Perhaps he was not so credible a source.

[OldPhiKap]

I should add that Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is improperly on the Good Reads list. It is not a novel. I have it on good authority-HST himself-that it is, in fact, non fiction. Of course, he was very drunk on Wild Turkey at the time, and later was essentially dragged off the Page Auditorium stage. Perhaps he was not so credible a source.

I had a poly sci class at Duke where we had to read Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, about his stint as a political reporter covering the 1972 Presidential campaign for Rolling Stone magazine. Whatever you think of HST, it is a brilliant book.

I guess his comment at Page illustrates the difference bewteen "non fiction" and "reality" (to the extent there is an objective reality -- whole different thread).

[Jim3k]

Bob, I've got to admit that I've never heard either Red Badge or Gatsby described as a novelette or a novella. Both are shorter than -- say, Golden Bowl or Hubbard's Battlefield Earth -- but I think you are the first person I've ever seen deny that they are novels. They are both included in every top American novel list I can find (including the one I linked).

.....


BTW: As long as we are talking about Hemingway and James -- The Old Man and the Sea and The Turn of the Screw -- now those are what I would call novellas. (Bob, I have Red Badge and The Old Man in the same Prestwich House edition -- the Red Badge is 24 pages longer (152 to 128) ... my line for novella/novel is somewhere in those 24 pages).

Poor Bob...Oly, you blamed him and not me, the actual commenter.

I used pages...and, like you, I think, hold an AB degree in English Lit from Duke. That august accomplishment qualifies as nothing when it comes to judging the difference between a novella (you were correct--novelette was wrong) and a novel. In some respects it is the publishers and their search for a dollar that marks the difference between the novel and the novella.

An intense internet search (I spent less than 5 minutes on this extremely important issue) led me to the following three sites. In general, they conclude that the number of words required for a novel is a matter of opinion. So...we can all be right.

Here they are:

Wikipedia: quoting Jane Smiley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_count 100,000 and 175,000 words

Novel Writing Help: http://www.novel-writing-help.com/novel-length.html anything over 50,000 words

and

an agent's POV: http://theswivet.blogspot.com/2008/03/on-word-counts-and-novel-length.html Draws a distinction between types of novels and the targeted audience--varies.

Oddly, those sites don't really discuss plot complications or story arcs as a requirement. If it were me, I'd try to include that factor somehow.

I have no idea of word count as applied to any of the shorter works I questioned. Maybe some of our e-reading colleagues can check.

As for The Old Man and the Sea, in 1952 Life published the entire thing in its magazine. As an 11-year-old, I closeted myself in a bathroom for more than an hour and read the entire thing. Could even a fast reader read a novel that quickly? (Without drawing unwanted attention?) :o I say that one is a novella.

Edit: NYT book review (http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/07/04/specials/hemingway-oldman.html) at the time says it's a novel--27,000 words. In another comment the NYT also calls it a novella.

[Olympic Fan]

I apologize to Bob ... don't know why I thought he was the one talking about length.

I agree that word count is a better measure of length that pages -- type size can have a huge impact there.

For the record, Red Badge of Courage was just over 50,000 words when first published -- the real manuscript is closer to 55,000 words. So it is about twice as long as The Old Man and the Sea.

Gatsby is a bit longer than Red Badge ...

And, yes, I prefer the older stuff. Novels used to reach a greater proportion of the public ... before TV (and the internet). And literacy was MUCH higher a couple of generations ago that it is today -- it appears literacy in America peaked during the WWII eras and has been declining ever since:

http://www.ddooggss.net/8Fmedia/a/HomeLiteracy_USHistory.pdf

Certainly the number of people who read books is w-a-a-a-y down. That makes it hard for a novel in the last few decades to reach much of an audience. That doesn't mean it's not a great novel, just that it's impact is minimal.

[77devil]

I had a poly sci class at Duke where we had to read Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail, about his stint as a political reporter covering the 1972 Presidential campaign for Rolling Stone magazine. Whatever you think of HST, it is a brilliant book.

I agree, but I'm not sure David Broader ever fully recovered.

[77devil]

And literacy was MUCH higher a couple of generations ago that it is today -- it appears literacy in America peaked during the WWII eras and has been declining ever since:

http://www.ddooggss.net/8Fmedia/a/HomeLiteracy_USHistory.pdf

Certainly the number of people who read books is w-a-a-a-y down.

The data in the attachment are truly depressing, at least for me, and items 5 and 6 are hard to accept. Can it really be this awful? And the referenced study was 20 years ago. What about now? I knew it was bad. I have friends who teach in the Philly public schools. But if the data are accurate, the country is in much worse shape than I realized.

[OldPhiKap]

I agree, but I'm not sure David Broader ever fully recovered.

Reply With Quote
You must spread some Comments around before commenting on 77devil again.

Dang, hit the nail.

I am sure that when David Gergen taught at Duke, he would have something to say.

As a poly sci/ history double major, I had the most conservative and most liberal set of profs imaginable. No wonder I am still confused.

[nocilla]

I've been ruminating about the great American novels since I read this thread. I found this list of the top 100 American novels that I think it pretty good:

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/730.The_Great_American_Novel

It has Great Gatsby, To Kill a Mockingbird and Huckleberry Finn as 1-2-3. Obviously, I think Huck is No. 1 (and I think this list has Red Badge of Courage way too low), but any list that has Catch 22 No. 10, A Confederacy of Dunces No. 19 and Fahrenheit 451 No. 20 ain't all bad.

Just for fun, my personal top 10:
1. Huckleberry Finn, Twain
2. Moby Dick, Melville
3. The Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck
4. The Red Badge of Courage, Crane
5. To Kill a Mockingbird, Lee
6. The Sound and the Fury, Faulkner (I really wanted to keep it to one per author in the top 10 -- toughest call was this or Absolom, Absolom)
7. The Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald
8. The Catcher in the Rye, Salinger
9. Catch 22, Heller
10. The Public Burning, Coover


I am going to use your list as a reading guide. I have just gotten into reading novels. Oddly enough, Harry Potter is what got me back into it. I took AP english in high school and read a lot of classics, but I don't really remember most of them and certainly wasn't in the right frame of mind to enjoy them. Since then I haven't read much except for text books in college and Men's Health magazine since then. Then my son got into reading Harry Potter a couple years ago. There were concerns about the books 5-7 being a little to much for him so I decided to read the series ahead of him. I know they are kids books but I thought they were very well written and I really enjoyed them. It was also great family time, because my wife and oldest daughter got into them as well. We would wait for everyone to finish each book so we could discuss and then watch the movie. Anyway, since then I have been reading a lot more and really enjoying it. But I need to go back through the classics. I started with Les Miserables simply because the movie was coming out and I thought it would be better to read the book first. Now I am in the last book of Lord of the Rings. Next I am going to your list. I do remember enjoying Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. I also remember liking the Grapes of Wrath and To Kill a Mockingbird. But I think I will re-read those and then hit the others on your list.

Sorry for the rambling, but thanks for giving me a list to go by.

[OldPhiKap]

I am going to use your list as a reading guide. I have just gotten into reading novels. Oddly enough, Harry Potter is what got me back into it. I took AP english in high school and read a lot of classics, but I don't really remember most of them and certainly wasn't in the right frame of mind to enjoy them. Since then I haven't read much except for text books in college and Men's Health magazine since then. Then my son got into reading Harry Potter a couple years ago. There were concerns about the books 5-7 being a little to much for him so I decided to read the series ahead of him. I know they are kids books but I thought they were very well written and I really enjoyed them. It was also great family time, because my wife and oldest daughter got into them as well. We would wait for everyone to finish each book so we could discuss and then watch the movie. Anyway, since then I have been reading a lot more and really enjoying it. But I need to go back through the classics. I started with Les Miserables simply because the movie was coming out and I thought it would be better to read the book first. Now I am in the last book of Lord of the Rings. Next I am going to your list. I do remember enjoying Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. I also remember liking the Grapes of Wrath and To Kill a Mockingbird. But I think I will re-read those and then hit the others on your list.

Sorry for the rambling, but thanks for giving me a list to go by.

I re-read both Huck Finn and Gatsby within the last two years. Both are excellent. Huck Finn is extremely funny (with some dated language) and Gatsby is a pretty short read.

[JohnGalt]

And, yes, I prefer the older stuff. Novels used to reach a greater proportion of the public ... before TV (and the internet). And literacy was MUCH higher a couple of generations ago that it is today -- it appears literacy in America peaked during the WWII eras and has been declining ever since:

http://www.ddooggss.net/8Fmedia/a/HomeLiteracy_USHistory.pdf

Certainly the number of people who read books is w-a-a-a-y down. That makes it hard for a novel in the last few decades to reach much of an audience. That doesn't mean it's not a great novel, just that it's impact is minimal.

An Aldous Huxley book is your reference for "literacy peaking in WW2"? Or am I missing a joke?

Illiteracy has shrunk by nearly 20% since the Antebellum period ended and with one exception appears to have continually approached the null. It's gotten to the point where the illiteracy figure in the United States is so small that it's nearly [statistically speaking] irrelevant. The simple fact is that, nowadays, more quality reading material is more readily available than ever before. But that is shrouded by our great misfortune that, at the same time, more distasteful and...umm..."poorly-authored" reading is available, as well. Such is the catch-22 (hey hey!) of the internet. It doesn't help either that the manner in which the public school system (that's not fair...it may not be THAT widespread) attempts to cram certain novels down the throats of its pupils is probably not the best way in which to introduce literature to youths...especially when more attractive topics sit inches away on the iphone. The statistics, if anything, quite clearly illustrate the failure of the government to adapt to the changing way in which children learn and want to learn. Not that we aren't learning at all.

Anyways...I remember hating To Kill a Mockingbird the first time it was introduced to me in school because we couldn't go half a page without highlighting some motif or some sort of "foreshadowing." I remember just wanting to read the damn thing. But then again...my attention span is short. I'm a product of Sesame Street.

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp

[Olympic Fan]

An Aldous Huxley book is your reference for "literacy peaking in WW2"? Or am I missing a joke?

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp

Actually, I think the evidence offered in the link is the results of Army induction tests from WWII to the Korean War to Vietnam (it is an old article, I'd love to see a more recent figure, although we now have a volunteer army, the result might be skewed).

The issue of illiteracy is slippery, since the definition varies so widely. Does fourth grade proficiency qualify? Sixth grade? 12th grade?

I'm reminded of the society in Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 in which video has replaced reading ... the populace can read simple things -- road signs and directions, but books are illegal.

[JohnGalt]

The issue of illiteracy is slippery, since the definition varies so widely. Does fourth grade proficiency qualify? Sixth grade? 12th grade?

I'm reminded of the society in Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 in which video has replaced reading ... the populace can read simple things -- road signs and directions, but books are illegal.

IES defines it as 14+ and unable to read or write in any language. I agree it's arbitrary, but it is established.

I'm reminded of how every generation since the first has thought the subsequent would be the downfall of existence. And to date only 1 group of dinosaurs were right...and luckily not entirely.

[sagegrouse]

As for The Old Man and the Sea, in 1952 Life published the entire thing in its magazine. As an 11-year-old, I closeted myself in a bathroom for more than an hour and read the entire thing. Could even a fast reader read a novel that quickly? (Without drawing unwanted attention?) :o I say that one is a novella.

Edit: NYT book review (http://www.nytimes.com/books/99/07/04/specials/hemingway-oldman.html) at the time says it's a novel--27,000 words. In another comment the NYT also calls it a novella.

The Nobel committee had no problem using The Old Man and the Sea as an exemplar in awarding Hemingway the literature prize in 1954.

sage

[Jim3k]

Originally Posted by Jim3k http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=661587#post661587) As for The Old Man and the Sea, ... I closeted myself in a bathroom for more than an hour and read the entire thing. Could even a fast reader read a novel that quickly? (Without drawing unwanted attention?) :o



The Nobel committee had no problem using The Old Man and the Sea as an exemplar in awarding Hemingway the literature prize in 1954.

sage

I was afraid one of those guys would knock on the door. Maybe to ask me to read a Classic Comic, Hamlet, I think. It would then have been above my reading level. I think I read your copy at Bat's a few years later. :D

[JBDuke]

Earlier in this thread, JohnGalt mentioned that few recent novels had been mentioned, and that got me thinking. I read a review of Philipp Meyer's "The Son", released just back in May, that supposed it might be a candidate for the next Great American Novel. Has anyone read it, and if so, what did you think?

[Reilly]

... I second Confederacy of Dunces as one of the great modern American novels and one of the most interesting character pieces out there. Certainly not the social commentary of many on the list above, but a wonderful and rich novel.

My screen name (which is my dog's name, who is named after Ignatius J.) agrees.

My all-time favorite is probably "A Sport and a Pastime" by James Salter. Reynolds Price called it "as nearly perfect as any American fiction I know."

[rsvman]

Way too much Cormac McCarthy on the linked list for my taste. "All the Pretty Horses," in my opinion, is one of the most overrated novels of the last 30 years.

I LOVE the inclusion of Franzen's "The Corrections" and even more so Michael Chabon's "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay," which, in my opinion, is one of the most stunning reads in my lifetime. The prose in this book is just breathtaking. The descriptions are rich, varied, and intense. The characters are interesting and the plot is good, but the incredible thing about the book is the writing itself. You can open the book and read any random page and be exposed to fantastic prose that borders on poetry, and descriptions that are almost palpable. Reading "Adventures" is truly unlike reading any other book on the list.

[OldPhiKap]

Way too much Cormac McCarthy on the linked list for my taste. "All the Pretty Horses," in my opinion, is one of the most overrated novels of the last 30 years.

I LOVE the inclusion of Franzen's "The Corrections" and even more so Michael Chabon's "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay," which, in my opinion, is one of the most stunning reads in my lifetime. The prose in this book is just breathtaking. The descriptions are rich, varied, and intense. The characters are interesting and the plot is good, but the incredible thing about the book is the writing itself. You can open the book and read any random page and be exposed to fantastic prose that borders on poetry, and descriptions that are almost palpable. Reading "Adventures" is truly unlike reading any other book on the list.

I did not really care for All the Pretty Horses either, but perhaps it is because it was so @#$#$@ difficult to read a book without full use of punctuation. (Still not sure what the point of that was).

No Country for Old Men, by contrast, is outstanding. And, unlike the movie (which I also really liked), the end makes sense.


(Best book) : (worst movie) ratio winner is ------------ The Prince of Tides.

[Olympic Fan]

(Best book) : (worst movie) ratio winner is ------------ The Prince of Tides.

I won't dispute that opinion ... although I do believe there has never been a movie of Huck Finn to do it justice.

I would suggest the best ratio of great book: great movie is either Grapes of Wrath (a masterpiece by John Ford) or To Kill a Mockingbird (Gregory Peck's Atticus Finch is one of the great characters in screen history).

FWIW: I actually like Mike Nichols' Catch-22 (loved Arkin as Yossarian) and the much troubled Audie Murphy version of Red Badge of Courage, although I wouldn't argue that either is a great movie.

[OldPhiKap]

I won't dispute that opinion ... although I do believe there has never been a movie of Huck Finn to do it justice.

I would suggest the best ratio of great book: great movie is either Grapes of Wrath (a masterpiece by John Ford) or To Kill a Mockingbird (Gregory Peck's Atticus Finch is one of the great characters in screen history).

FWIW: I actually like Mike Nichols' Catch-22 (loved Arkin as Yossarian) and the much troubled Audie Murphy version of Red Badge of Courage, although I wouldn't argue that either is a great movie.

To paraphrase a Bill Mahar tweet from earlier this summer:

"The Great Gatsby: three movie adaptations, all sucked. Maybe it's the book, old chap."



(Although I really like the book, this did make me laugh)

[lotusland]

I usually like lists ... they are good for promoting discussion and debate. I realize there is no correct answer to such lists -- we could argue all day whether Sgt. Pepper should be the No. 1 album of all time or No. 10 or somewhere in between. It's only when you do something absurd like leave it out of your top 100 that the list becomes so ridiculous that you don't pay it any mind.

I've been ruminating about the great American novels since I read this thread. I found this list of the top 100 American novels that I think it pretty good:

http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/730.The_Great_American_Novel

It has Great Gatsby, To Kill a Mockingbird and Huckleberry Finn as 1-2-3. Obviously, I think Huck is No. 1 (and I think this list has Red Badge of Courage way too low), but any list that has Catch 22 No. 10, A Confederacy of Dunces No. 19 and Fahrenheit 451 No. 20 ain't all bad.

Just for fun, my personal top 10:
1. Huckleberry Finn, Twain
2. Moby Dick, Melville
3. The Grapes of Wrath, Steinbeck
4. The Red Badge of Courage, Crane
5. To Kill a Mockingbird, Lee
6. The Sound and the Fury, Faulkner (I really wanted to keep it to one per author in the top 10 -- toughest call was this or Absolom, Absolom)
7. The Great Gatsby, Fitzgerald
8. The Catcher in the Rye, Salinger
9. Catch 22, Heller
10. The Public Burning, Coover

PS The more I think about it ... The Godfather No. 1? The Godfather??? This guy teaches at Duke? I wonder what he's got at No. 2 -- Jacqueline Susann's Valley of the Dolls? Or something by Tom Clancy?

This is a better list IMO. I'd probably put To Kill a Mockingbird at the Top. Cather in the Rye and The Great Gatsby are two that I have always thought were way over-rated though. I don't blame Salinger for becoming a hermit after having a middling novel elevated to a classic. I'd put Look Homeward Angel and In Cold Blood in my top 10