Enter Sandman [Archive]

dukebluelemur

07-16-2013, 11:26 PM

Oh, one more thing... why the 8th and not the 9th? This is Mariano Rivera!!

-Jason

Because the NL was the home team. If they wanted to make SURE they gave him to that moment taking the field, it had to be the 8th. If the NL had taken the lead in the bottom of the 8th, and the AL didn't retake the lead in the top of the ninth, there would be no bottom of the ninth for him. So he would have either been cut out completely or brought in in the middle of the 8th, without the same honor.

At least I'd guess that's the reasoning.

Olympic Fan

07-17-2013, 01:42 AM

Rivera is the greatest "closer" of all time ... no debate and no argument.

But understand, the "closer" position is barely 30 years old. Even as late as the late '70s, top relievers such as Gossage and Sutter were "stoppers" who routinely entered the game in crisis situations and often pitched 3-4 innings to save a game. Gossage topped 133 innings three times when he was the best reliever in the game ... by contrast, Rivera had never pitched ore than 83 innings in a season -- almost always entering game only in the eighth inning.

The great relievers of the past did the same -- go back and look closely at Joe Page's 1949 season -- 135 innings in 60 games with 13 wins and 27 saves. In the 153rd game of the season with the Yankees facing elimination, Allie Reynolds was knocked out of the box in the third inning and Page came in and pitched 6.2 innings of one-hit ball to save the season (Raschi beat the Red Sox the next day to clinch it),

Now, I'm not saying Page was a greater reliever than Rivera -- he really only had two great years -- but Page was far more valuable in those two years ('47 and '49) than Rivera has been in any one season.

For the greatest relief pitcher of all time, I'd nominate Hoyt Wilhelm. He started 52 times and relieved just over 1,000 times in a 21 year career. He pitched 2,254 innings (nearly 2000 in relief) with 143 wins and 227 saves. By contrast, Rivera has almost the same number of relief appearances, but just 1,254 innings. He has 77 wins and 638 saves.

And when you start talking about greatest PITCHER, there's no debate. No closer, throwing 60-70 innings a year can match a great starter, averaging 250 innings. I'm not the biggest fan of WAR, but Rivera's career WAR of 55.4 is just 71st best among pitchers in baseball history -- nine guys are over 100.

Look, I'm the biggest Yankee fan on this board and I love and admire Rivera. But I think we should recognize the guy for what he is -- the greatest closer in baseball history. He's in the debate as the greatest reliever (to be fair, he does have a better career WAR than Wilhelm).

But the greatest pitcher -- no.

BTW, if you want to see what a great person Rivera is, check out this article about his unique farewell tour:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/sports/baseball/yankees-rivera-spends-his-goodbye-tour-saying-hello.html?emc=eta1

Jim3k

07-17-2013, 02:14 AM

For the greatest relief pitcher of all time, I'd nominate Hoyt Wilhelm. He started 52 times and relieved just over 1,000 times in a 21 year career. He pitched 2,254 innings (nearly 2000 in relief) with 143 wins and 227 saves. By contrast, Rivera has almost the same number of relief appearances, but just 1,254 innings. He has 77 wins and 638 saves.

Not going to debate your Wilhelm choice (a good one), but Rollie Fingers had 341 saves in 17 years.

riverside6

07-17-2013, 09:36 AM

The better question may be, is Rivera's cutter the most dominant pitch ever? The fact that he's had the career that he's had throwing 1 pitch is truly remarkable.

InSpades

07-17-2013, 12:29 PM

I think it was kind of crap that they brought him in to pitch the 8th. The odds of them scoring 4 or more runs off Nathan in the 8th are ridiculously small. And if they get in a position where Nathan gives up 3 baserunners... you're probably taking him out anyway. He should have gotten the chance to pitch the 9th.

I may be a biased Yankee fan... but to me he's the greatest pitcher since I started watching baseball (since the mid-80s).

Just throwing out a random stat... from baseball-reference.com. The career leaders in ERA+:
1. Mariano Rivera (19, 43) 206 R
2. Pedro Martinez (18) 154 R
3. Jim Devlin (5) 150 R
4. Lefty Grove+ (17) 148 L
5. Walter Johnson+ (21) 147 R
Hoyt Wilhelm+ (21) 147 R
Smoky Joe Wood (14) 147 R
8. Dan Quisenberry (12) 146 R
9. Ed Walsh+ (14) 145 R
10. Roger Clemens (24) 143 R
Clayton Kershaw (6, 25) 143 L

2-10 are in the 143-154 range. Mariano is at 206. He wasn't just the best, he was the best by a lot. And that's just his regular season stats... he was significantly better in the post-season. Simply the best. He will be missed.

BD80

07-17-2013, 01:39 PM

I think it was kind of crap that they brought him in to pitch the 8th. The odds of them scoring 4 or more runs off Nathan in the 8th are ridiculously small. ...

They were only up 2 when he started to warm-up to pitch the 8th, the die had been cast. Leyland wanted to be certain Rivera would have his moment. Leyland also passed the word to the coaches to hold the position players back to have Rivera take the field alone. I'd say Leyland did it up right for the Sandman.

InSpades

07-17-2013, 02:18 PM

Nathan was warming up before the 8th too...

I understand his point and think he was probably trying to do the right thing... but I think it's a shame that the greatest closer of all-time pitched the 8th inning in his last all-star game. I think the moment would have been even more special if he had a chance to get the last out (as he's done more than anyone ever).

Mal

07-17-2013, 03:24 PM

but I think it's a shame that the greatest closer of all-time pitched the 8th inning in his last all-star game.

A shame? That seems a bit of an overstatement for anyone not a Yankee fan. I'd go with "not quite as cool as it might have been, but still pretty awesome." It's the All-Star Game. To the degree it actually matters at all, for World Series home field, Nathan should have been pitching the 9th, anyway, as he's the best closer in the AL this year. A lot of people would have left for the parking lot or turned off the TV to go to bed rather than waiting for the bottom of the 9th in a pretty snoozy game, so more fans got to actually see Rivera pitch this way, too. No one's complaining that he won the MVP rather than Chris Sale or a hitter - it's the All-Star Game. Things are contrived and not like the regular season, so it's a bit of a stretch to be really put off by the fact that Rivera's entrance was not at his regular time. Imagine if the AL had been behind going into the 8th, and Rivera wasn't even pitching for a hold. Would they have even done the send him out there by himself thing?

Anyway, it was a great and much-deserved moment for clearly one of the top relievers of all time. I'm with Oly, however, that as amazing as his career was, and as dominant as he was in his role, he's not even in the discussion of best pitchers in my lifetime, much less the game's history. Comparing ERA+ between starters and relievers is silly - relievers don't even go through the order once, much less three or four times. Rivera's cutter might go down as one of the toughest pitches in MLB history, but there's no way his career WHIP would be 1.00 or ERA 2.20 if he had thrown it a hundred times a game to a lineup selected for lefties, and the top of the order got to see it four times rather than one at bat in a do-or-die situation.

Also, Pedro Martinez didn't get to walk off the field with a couple runners on base if he blew a lead on the road (or if he did, the inning would still continue and he'd be responsible for the runners). That might seem a small thing, but given the limited numbers of innings pitched by a closer, it can matter. For instance, Rivera blew a save earlier this year at the Mets, giving up two runs without getting an out. If he'd had to complete that inning and gave up another run (there would have been a man on first with no outs), his ERA would be .25 higher. In his first appearance last year, at Tampa, he got shelled, giving up two runs to lose, and the game ended with guys on 2nd and 3rd and one out. A hit following that, knocking in two more runs, would have doubled the earned runs he gave up in his injury-shortened season.

InSpades

07-17-2013, 05:36 PM

Yes. A shame, that's my opinion. It seems like they just wanted to do the "everyone stay in the dugout thing" and they couldn't do that if Rivera had to come in during the 8th to relieve Nathan. That outcome was still really really unlikely. And to say that Nathan should have closed because he's the best closer in the AL this year is kind of a joke. Your life is on the line... who do you want pitching 1 inning to close out a game? Rivera.

If you want to compare his ERA+ w/ other closers then you have Wilhelm who wasn't anywhere close. Hoffman wasn't anywhere close. I haven't looked at every # (and a lot of them probably don't meet the 1000 IP minimum) but I doubt anyone is close.

blazindw

07-17-2013, 10:37 PM

Tom B.

07-17-2013, 11:44 PM

BTW, if you want to see what a great person Rivera is, check out this article about his unique farewell tour:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/16/sports/baseball/yankees-rivera-spends-his-goodbye-tour-saying-hello.html?emc=eta1

Speaking of Rivera's farewell tour, I thought the Minnesota Twins gave him about the coolest retirement gift ever -- a rocking chair made of broken bats that had been splintered by actual Rivera cutters.

http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusmlbexperts/marianochair070213.jpg

Here's the link to the story. (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/twins-mariano-rivera-rocking-chair-made-broken-bats-040853093.html)

InSpades

07-18-2013, 12:38 AM

I don't think it was a shame. Rivera didn't think so either. He understood that Leyland wanted to give him his moment, and in an All Star Game, that last guaranteed moment when you're on the road is the 8th. If they were in an AL city, the 9th would have been his shining moment, but they wanted to make sure. I thought it made for a moment that baseball fans will remember forever.

He's far too classy to say it but... I'd bet good money he'd rather have pitched the 9th. He already said he didn't want to start the game. It was still a great moment... it just could have been better.

nocilla

07-18-2013, 08:42 AM

Blue in the Face

07-18-2013, 09:38 AM

I am a Yankees fan and I thought what they did was great. I wouldn't of cared if it was the 8th inning or the 3rd inning. It's an all-star game. Most of the game is managed different than a regular game so don't expect it to be managed like a real game. The NL scoring 4 runs in the bottom of the 8th and there being no bottom of the 9th for Rivera to pitch would have been a shame.
That's what I thought too. And I'd bet good money that Rivera wouldn't of cared either, and was just tremendously appreciative of being honored in such generous fashion, regardless of the non-closing role.

nocilla

07-18-2013, 09:59 AM

One other thought. I saw this on facebook, posted by a VT fan; the-six-most-goosebump-inducing-uses-of-enter-sandman-in-sports. (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjkiebus/the-six-most-goosebump-inducing-uses-of-enter-sandman-in-spo)

Granted the VT fans do a great job with it. But should they be ranked ahead of Mariano?

InSpades

07-18-2013, 10:18 AM

I am a Yankees fan and I thought what they did was great. I wouldn't of cared if it was the 8th inning or the 3rd inning. It's an all-star game. Most of the game is managed different than a regular game so don't expect it to be managed like a real game. The NL scoring 4 runs in the bottom of the 8th and there being no bottom of the 9th for Rivera to pitch would have been a shame.

Couldn't they just have brought him in to finish the 8th? Or do you think they'd let Nathan give up 4 runs and finish the inning?

blazindw

07-18-2013, 11:00 AM

He's far too classy to say it but... I'd bet good money he'd rather have pitched the 9th. He already said he didn't want to start the game. It was still a great moment... it just could have been better.

Couldn't they just have brought him in to finish the 8th? Or do you think they'd let Nathan give up 4 runs and finish the inning?

Either way, he wasn't pitching the 9th, and bringing him in to pitch in the middle of the 8th wouldn't have yielded the moment that was set up for him pitching the 8th. And again, he said he wanted to pitch the 9th but understood why it was the 8th and was fine with it and appreciated it. If it's good enough for him, why isn't it good enough for everyone else?

InSpades

07-18-2013, 12:30 PM

Either way, he wasn't pitching the 9th, and bringing him in to pitch in the middle of the 8th wouldn't have yielded the moment that was set up for him pitching the 8th. And again, he said he wanted to pitch the 9th but understood why it was the 8th and was fine with it and appreciated it. If it's good enough for him, why isn't it good enough for everyone else?

What did you expect him to say? That he was annoyed and didn't want to pitch the 8th but he had to?

There were 2 options...

A: Pitch Nathan in the 8th. End result: 99% of the time he gets out of the 8th giving up 3 or less runs and Mariano pitches the 9th. 1% chance that Mariano has to come in to relieve Nathan (to close the inning and ensure he actually gets to pitch).

B: Pitch Mariano in the 8th. End result: 0% of the time Mariano gets to pitch the 9th.

He would have gotten a great ovation from the crowd no matter when he came into the game.

Mal

07-18-2013, 01:48 PM

And to say that Nathan should have closed because he's the best closer in the AL this year is kind of a joke. Your life is on the line... who do you want pitching 1 inning to close out a game? Rivera.

A couple years ago, Rivera without question. Right now, however, one of those two guys has a WHIP of 0.76, and it's not Rivera (who's allowing half a baserunner per inning more). Nathan's ERA is half a run lower, too; he's struck out 10 more batters and allowed 16 less hits in 5 more innings. So, no, it's not a joke. It's no knock on Rivera's historical greatness to say that I would not choose him at age 43 over Joe Nathan with a game on the line right now.

If you want to compare his ERA+ w/ other closers then you have Wilhelm who wasn't anywhere close. Hoffman wasn't anywhere close. I haven't looked at every # (and a lot of them probably don't meet the 1000 IP minimum) but I doubt anyone is close.

I'd submit this speaks to Rivera's greatness compared to all other relievers, rather than greatness compared to starters. Hoffman's not being even close, yet having a very similar save/blown save ratio over his career, also speaks to the limited value of ERA and ERA+ when evaluating closers. (Not that save percentage is be-all, end-all, either, of course - we all know Rivera's propensity for greatness in the biggest moments dwarfed Hoffman's and anyone else's, which matters perhaps more for a closer than all the stats we can compile from a career that includes less innings pitched than a starter who lasts only 7 or 8 seasons).

nocilla

07-18-2013, 01:53 PM

What did you expect him to say? That he was annoyed and didn't want to pitch the 8th but he had to?

There were 2 options...

A: Pitch Nathan in the 8th. End result: 99% of the time he gets out of the 8th giving up 3 or less runs and Mariano pitches the 9th. 1% chance that Mariano has to come in to relieve Nathan (to close the inning and ensure he actually gets to pitch).

B: Pitch Mariano in the 8th. End result: 0% of the time Mariano gets to pitch the 9th.

He would have gotten a great ovation from the crowd no matter when he came into the game.

You should send Mariano a sympathy card. I'm sure he would appreciate your compassion.

Seriously though, he was sent onto the field by himself to recieve a rousing ovation from the fans. He was awarded the MVP and all the parting gifts that go along with it. I don't think he is losing any sleep over not pitching the 9th.

duke74

07-18-2013, 02:16 PM

You should send Mariano a sympathy card. I'm sure he would appreciate your compassion.

Seriously though, he was sent onto the field by himself to recieve a rousing ovation from the fans. He was awarded the MVP and all the parting gifts that go along with it. I don't think he is losing any sleep over not pitching the 9th.

Agree completely. As I've indicated here in the past, I am a Mets fan. Nonetheless, watching the ASG and Mo's reception at Citifield gave me goosebumps. A case of another fan base - and a city - honoring a great player and a great, humble human being. Not that it matters what I think (or any one else, for that matter), but I don't think Mo could have been afforded a better tribute then that which he received.

Even more so than Jeter's will, Mo's retirement signals the end of another Yankees golden era to me. (Olympic Fan, please jump in as a Yankee fan.) Mo defined the era and made most games 8-inning affairs. He will be missed on and off the field.

InSpades

07-18-2013, 02:53 PM

A couple years ago, Rivera without question. Right now, however, one of those two guys has a WHIP of 0.76, and it's not Rivera (who's allowing half a baserunner per inning more). Nathan's ERA is half a run lower, too; he's struck out 10 more batters and allowed 16 less hits in 5 more innings. So, no, it's not a joke. It's no knock on Rivera's historical greatness to say that I would not choose him at age 43 over Joe Nathan with a game on the line right now.

You'd really judge them on small differences over a small sample size?

Let's talk pressure situations... maybe in playoffs? Nathan has given up 9 ER in 9 post-season innings. Rivera has given up 11 ER in 141 post-season innings. Are you still sure it's not a joke?

cato

07-18-2013, 03:44 PM

InSpades

07-18-2013, 03:54 PM

You aren't suggesting Rivera is just as good today as he has been his entire career, are you?

At any rate, I am not sure why you want to take the shine off a moment everyone else is applauding, but you're doing a fine job.

Is this his best year? No. Is it his worst year? No. He looks like the same pitcher to me, the results will vary (as they do with any pitcher). Do you think Nathan is suddenly a sub 1.00 ERA pitcher when he's never been that before in his career? Or did he just have a good first half? Mariano doesn't have to be as good as he's always been to be better than Joe Nathan.

I'm reasonably sure my reaction doesn't change the moment for anyone. My initial thought when I heard he was coming in for the 8th was "that's a shame". I think a lot of Yankees fans would agree with me. I just don't see the down side of waiting... he possibly misses out on the awkward moment of standing on the mound with no one else in the field?

OZZIE4DUKE

07-18-2013, 03:55 PM

I learned another new baseball term/stat here today: ERA+. Not being a fantasy player, and not being a stat geek either, I'd never read, heard or seen it before reading this thread. WHIP, OPS, WAR, ERA+. I've learned so much reading the DBR! :cool:

As a lifelong Yankee fan, I'm OK with Mo pitching the 8th instead of the 9th. After all, he started his life as a reliever setting up in 1996 for John Wetteland. He did great then, too! :cool:

He could have pitched 2 innings on Tuesday to get the save. I know he hasn't done it all year, and Girardi has said he won't, but he does have 3 full days off (Tuesday night to Friday night) before he has to pitch in Boston. Hopefully. :)

duke74

07-18-2013, 04:11 PM

He could have pitched 2 innings on Tuesday to get the save. I know he hasn't done it all year, and Girardi has said he won't, but he does have 3 full days off (Tuesday night to Friday night) before he has to pitch in Boston. Hopefully. :)

What, you're not expecting complete game victories in a series sweep by the Yanks? :)

Blue in the Face

07-18-2013, 05:44 PM

As a lifelong Yankee fan, I'm OK with Mo pitching the 8th instead of the 9th. After all, he started his life as a reliever setting up in 1996 for John Wetteland. He did great then, too! :cool:

I remember a very concerned conversation with a friend of mine going into the 97 season, both of us worried how the yankees would fare without that tremendous Rivera --> Wetteland 3 inning lockdown they'd had throughout 96. Tough to replace the kind of set-up production Mo provided that year, but things seem to have worked out ok.

And something I didn't remember about 1996, Mo finished third in the Cy Young voting (albeit a very distant third). That's really surprising to me, not just that a set-up guy got such recognition, but that a basically unknown set-up guy got such recognition. He didn't have some rep built over several years of being a superb reliever, he just had a middling (at best) rookie year going from the rotation to the pen, before bursting onto the scene with the great year as the set-up man. Not too shabby to grab voters' attention in a non prime-time role, with no track record.

Olympic Fan

07-19-2013, 02:03 AM

Just some observations:

-- I was looking at some numbers and found a Positional WAR ranking that rates Rivera as the No. 2 relief pitcher of all time ... behind Dennis Eckersley:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_RP.shtml.

I'm not sure, but I think this list may be skewed by the fact that Eckersley pitched more than half of his career as a starter (he started 361 games) and starters have much more inherent value than closers. The rest of the top 4 seems reasonable -- 2. Rivera; 3. Wilhelm; 4. Gossage. Interesting that Bobby Shantz, who also spent most of his career as an effective starter, comes in at No. 5, ahead of such quality stoppers as Sutter, Hoffman and Fingers. Old-time relievers, who pithed a lot more innings than modern closers, get a lot of credit on this list.

-- I do like ERA-plus (just like I like OPS-plus). We've got to understand that numbers are a product of time and place. Guys who hit in Sportsman's Park in the 20s put up some incredible numbers. In the 1930 NL, outfielders batting .300 were sent down to the minors. On the other hand guys playing in the dead ball era or in the mid-1960s were living in a pitcher's world. In 1967, one AL hitter hit over .300 (the second place guy was at .290). Power numbers exploded off the chart in the '90s. Even within the same year or era, certain parks were very pitcher friendly or very hitter friendly. ERA-plus (and OPS-plus) normalize the raw numbers to negate the park and era effect.

-- Rivera's 206 ERA-plus is spectacular. But as important as ERA-plus is, it's got to be balanced by the number of innings pitched. Ribera has thrown 1,254 innings ... Wilhelm's ERA plus is the fifth best in baseball history at 147 ... but he's thrown 2,254 innings (exactly 1,000 more innings than Big Mo). And what about Walter Johnson. He's tied with Wilhelm with a 147 ERA-plus ... and he threw 5,914 innings ... think about that -- he threw almost FIVE TIMES as many innings as Rivera. That's got to trump Rivera's edge in ERA-plus.

-- As a huge Yankee fan, I have not problem with Rivera pitching the eighth instead of the ninth. I understand the reasoning. In hindsight, after thinking about it, Leyland could have started Nathan in the eighth and if the NL had gotten two men on, he could have brought in Rivera to save the day -- but that would have been treating him like a stopper, not a closer. I don't think Rivera fans have anything to complain about. He was treated with extraordinary respect and he was voted the all-star game MVP. What more could you want?

nocilla

07-19-2013, 08:44 AM

Is this his best year? No. Is it his worst year? No. He looks like the same pitcher to me, the results will vary (as they do with any pitcher). Do you think Nathan is suddenly a sub 1.00 ERA pitcher when he's never been that before in his career? Or did he just have a good first half? Mariano doesn't have to be as good as he's always been to be better than Joe Nathan.

I'm reasonably sure my reaction doesn't change the moment for anyone. My initial thought when I heard he was coming in for the 8th was "that's a shame". I think a lot of Yankees fans would agree with me. I just don't see the down side of waiting... he possibly misses out on the awkward moment of standing on the mound with no one else in the field?

That was the most important part. No one cares about the game or who got what stats. It was an all-star game. People are remembered for being all-stars, not for what they did in the game. The most important part was him going out onto the field by himself. And if they waited for the 9th it might not have happened. Regardless of how unlikely it was, you don't take that chance. Stop raining on his parade.

InSpades

07-19-2013, 10:32 AM

That was the most important part. No one cares about the game or who got what stats. It was an all-star game. People are remembered for being all-stars, not for what they did in the game. The most important part was him going out onto the field by himself. And if they waited for the 9th it might not have happened. Regardless of how unlikely it was, you don't take that chance. Stop raining on his parade.

I thought the most important part was the crowd's reception and the respect the other players showed him. Letting him go out to the mound by himself was kind of weird.

This kind of reminds me of when A-Rod let Cal play shortstop in his last all-star game. That was something special I thought. Letting the guy who defined the position play the role that led him to that point. Rivera didn't get to where he is now as a setup man (though he was a pretty amazing one for a year).

Mal

07-19-2013, 11:26 AM

You'd really judge them on small differences over a small sample size?

Let's talk pressure situations... maybe in playoffs? Nathan has given up 9 ER in 9 post-season innings. Rivera has given up 11 ER in 141 post-season innings. Are you still sure it's not a joke?

Yes. They're closers. Small sample size is exactly what closers are all about. When they're hot, they're hot, and then they suddenly become Brad Lidge or Mitch Williams. That's part of what makes Rivera's career so amazing - his consistency. He was always great, every year, and his cutter has been the exact same pitch the whole time, while every other closer who reaches the top of the heap flames out at some point when they lose movement on their fastball or something falls off in their mechanics. We're not choosing between the aggregate of their careers, however, and we're certainly not in the playoffs - the All-Star game "matters" in the home field sense but it's clearly not the same kind of pressure one faces in the postseason (where, it should be noted, Nathan pitched the majority of his measly 9 innings 9 and 10 seasons ago, before he was considered an elite bullpen guy). We're talking about who's most effective right now.

You seem inclined toward really strong statements in this thread. It's not a "shame" that Rivera was only given the MVP award and a chance to walk to the mound for a standing ovation while the rest of the team waited in the dugout. Expecting anything more smacks of entitlement and looking a gift horse in the mouth. It's not a "joke" that someone would think someone not named Mariano might be the toughest closer to hit at the moment - to say it is looks like provincialism. Imagine if Pujols were retiring this year, they stopped the All-Star Game in the middle of the game, at Wrigley Field, for Ozzie Smith to come backflipping out and give him a hug at first base while the crowd stands, and Cardinals fans were saying it's shameful that Pujols didn't start the game over Chris Davis.

InSpades

07-19-2013, 11:48 AM

You seem inclined toward really strong statements in this thread. It's not a "shame" that Rivera was only given the MVP award and a chance to walk to the mound for a standing ovation while the rest of the team waited in the dugout. Expecting anything more smacks of entitlement and looking a gift horse in the mouth. It's not a "joke" that someone would think someone not named Mariano might be the toughest closer to hit at the moment - to say it is looks like provincialism. Imagine if Pujols were retiring this year, they stopped the All-Star Game in the middle of the game, at Wrigley Field, for Ozzie Smith to come backflipping out and give him a hug at first base while the crowd stands, and Cardinals fans were saying it's shameful that Pujols didn't start the game over Chris Davis.

I think it's a shame and a joke. You are free to disagree, that's part of what makes this country so great.

What amount of money would you want to bet that Nathan has a better 2nd half than Rivera? If Nathan is better then that would be a good bet, no? Or maybe the 1st half is a very small sample size and isn't a great predictor of what will happen in the 2nd half?

This is like Papelbon saying he should have closed out the A-S game in Yankee stadium. Even if it wasn't Yankee Stadium (or even if it wasn't Mariano's last year) he still gets to close because he's the best.