Joe Dumars may be insane

[BD80]

The Pistons' draft went relatively well, even though it took some cajones to pass up the popular choice, UM PG Trey Burke.

But this:

http://www.freep.com/article/20130628/SPORTS03/306280034/detroit-pistons-rasheed-wallace-assistant-coach

Rasheed Wallace a coach? Which coach holds the record for career technical fouls? Sheed will break it in a year!

Are Monroe and Drummond really so passive that they need a coach like Wallace? There is no questioning Sheed's knowledge of the game and ability to play defense. But is his attitude worth it? Mo Cheeks must be a friggin miracle worker if he can harness the good Sheed and protect the team from the bad Sheed.

[thedukie]

Me personally i do not like Rasheed Wallace because first of all he went UNC and second of all about a year ago he rejected to sign an autograph for me...:(. I dont know how he will do as a coach though.

[moonpie23]

Me personally i do not like Rasheed Wallace because first of all he went UNC and second of all about a year ago he rejected to sign an autograph for me...:(. I dont know how he will do as a coach though.

uhh....lucy.....you got some splainin' to do.....


what the sam hill are you doing asking unc players for their autographs?

[OldPhiKap]

Rasheed Wallace is the anti-Nate James.

[BD80]

More evidence for the sanity hearing:

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/eye-on-basketball/22578966/report-josh-smith-has-56-free-agency-suitors-including-detroit

Josh Smith? Really?

The Pistons' best player is PF Greg Monroe. Why overpay for another PF? Can Smith play/defend the 3?

[camion]

Me personally i do not like Rasheed Wallace because first of all he went UNC and second of all about a year ago he rejected to sign an autograph for me...:(. I dont know how he will do as a coach though.

I suspect he is being brought in as a calming influence.






:p;):rolleyes:

[superdave]

I think Wallace is a jerk, and I personally despise the dude.

But I bet a lot of young guys in the league respect him as they grew up watching him. He had an urban upbringing, played big time college ball, won a title with Deeetroit and competed as a Celtic for another. I bet he winds up being a strong coach. He's got gravitas with the young guys.

[weezie]

How does Joe D keep his job? Who's running the ship now ownership-wise? Is the daughter in charge or has the sale gone through.

'Sheed as a coach, interesting, I guess.

[sagegrouse]

I think Wallace is a jerk, and I personally despise the dude.



Two points:

1. I hear Rasheed was a really good coach in the summer league and even mentored the Duke guys.

2. To be classified as a "jerk" at Carolina you have a lot of competition. He is wa-a-a-y surpassed by such heroes as Jeff McInnis, Vince Carter, Rashad McCants, and Makhtiar Ndiaye.

sagegrouse

[Dukehky]

Sheed always entertained me while he was in the NBA. Also, let's not forget that after Austin Rivers hit the game winner two years ago, it was Rasheed Wallace who essentially made several UNC players to go shake hands with the Duke team.

I kinda liked Rashad McCants too though, so what do I know. Born to be hated, dying to be loved.

I'd definitely hire Rasheed Wallace to be an assistant coach. He was one of the best post defenders of his generation. If he shows more commitment to coaching than he did to playing, I think he could be really good.

[Henderson]

Here's the relevant quote from the article:

<<If it becomes official, Wallace would be expected to help groom young big men Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe.
“With young bigs like this, that type and personality and knowledge could be good for this,” Dumars said.>>

You guys misinterpreted it. Dumars meant finding decent tat parlors, Cadillac Escalade dealers, guns, the chronic, and strip clubs. The new guys are clueless about that stuff. Their tats are horrible, their rides aren't fly, they have punk-a@# firearms, they smoke dirt weed, and their paid-for-women are ugly. They need help, and Rasheed can coach them. Isn't that what being an NBA playah is all about?

[superdave]

How does Joe D keep his job? Who's running the ship now ownership-wise? Is the daughter in charge or has the sale gone through.

'Sheed as a coach, interesting, I guess.

Joe Dumars' Hits:
Greg Monroe
Andre Drummond
Aaron Afflalo (#27 overall)
Tayshaun Prince (#23 overall)
2004 NBA title, 2005 Finals, 6 Eastern Conference Finals


Joe Dumars' Misses:
Darko as the 2nd pick in the 2003 draft before Melo, Wade, Bosh.
Ben Gordon, 5 years, $55 M.
Charlie Villanueva, 5 years, $35 M.


He's all or nothing it seems. He's got some really good moves, and some really bad ones. But Detroit has won during his tenure which began in 2000. For some reason I do not think Rasheed Wallace will be either a hit or miss while in the assistant coach role. If Dumars cant make Mo Cheeks and the current roster into a winner, then he is gone within two years in my opinion.

The latest stink their is Caldwell-Pope over Trey Burke. That's a tossup until we see them play in the league. We'll see if Detroit can get a true PG this summer (Bledsoe?) and if they can avoid weak free agency moves like Ben Gordon.

Honestly, if you correct the Darko pick, Detroirt likely wins another title with one of Melo/Wade/Bosh. And Dumars is a Saint.

[OldPhiKap]

Here's the relevant quote from the article:

<<If it becomes official, Wallace would be expected to help groom young big men Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe.
“With young bigs like this, that type and personality and knowledge could be good for this,” Dumars said.>>

You guys misinterpreted it. Dumars meant finding decent tat parlors, Cadillac Escalade dealers, guns, the chronic, and strip clubs. The new guys are clueless about that stuff. Their tats are horrible, their rides aren't fly, they have punk-a@# firearms, they smoke dirt weed, and their paid-for-women are ugly. They need help, and Rasheed can coach them. Isn't that what being an NBA playah is all about?

Can't the just draft PJ Hairston?

[Dukehky]

Here's the relevant quote from the article:

<<If it becomes official, Wallace would be expected to help groom young big men Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe.
“With young bigs like this, that type and personality and knowledge could be good for this,” Dumars said.>>

You guys misinterpreted it. Dumars meant finding decent tat parlors, Cadillac Escalade dealers, guns, the chronic, and strip clubs. The new guys are clueless about that stuff. Their tats are horrible, their rides aren't fly, they have punk-a@# firearms, they smoke dirt weed, and their paid-for-women are ugly. They need help, and Rasheed can coach them. Isn't that what being an NBA playah is all about?

Rasheed Wallace drove a Bronco for forever (thanks MTV Cribs), so Monroe and Drummond probably aren't going to follow him on that one. Also, hey, way to unknowingly call out 3 people and perpetuate stereotypes of black NBA players. So... Good one bro!!!! I know it was supposed to be a joke, but it wasn't funny.

[Henderson]

Rasheed Wallace drove a Bronco for forever (thanks MTV Cribs), so Monroe and Drummond probably aren't going to follow him on that one. Also, hey, way to unknowingly call out 3 people and perpetuate stereotypes of black NBA players. So... Good one bro!!!! I know it was supposed to be a joke, but it wasn't funny.

So Chris Andersen is black? Who knew?

BTW, I lived in Portland when Rasheed was there and my friend was a beat reporter for the Trailblazers. Mr. Wallace had certain interests that were pretty well-known. And those tastes didn't run to Ford Broncos, despite what you learned from your profound study of television.

[BD80]

Joe Dumars' Hits:
Greg Monroe
Andre Drummond
Aaron Afflalo (#27 overall)
Tayshaun Prince (#23 overall)...

Kyle Singler (#33 2011)
Jonas Jarebko (#39 2009)
Chase Budinger (#44 2009)
Amir Johnson (#56 2005)
Carlos Delfino (#25 2003)
Brian Cardinal (#44 2000)

Pretty good success later in the draft.

He also traded Jerry Stackhouse to get Richard Hamilton in 2002, and got Ben Wallace in the sign and trade when Grant Hill decided to sign with the Magic in 2000.

Makes it all the sadder to see him losing it now.

[Li_Duke]

There's been bad Rasheed (antics in Portland, technicals, poor shot selections) and good Rasheed (passionate play on the court, his teammates generally love him, and occasional moments like Duke beating UNC). He's got the "street cred" to demand the attention of even the uncoachable/troubled types. If he brings the good Rasheed... I can see Dumars' reasoning on this. And there has been worse choices of head coaches, much less assistant coaches.

[Des Esseintes]

There's been bad Rasheed (antics in Portland, technicals, poor shot selections) and good Rasheed (passionate play on the court, his teammates generally love him, and occasional moments like Duke beating UNC). He's got the "street cred" to demand the attention of even the uncoachable/troubled types. If he brings the good Rasheed... I can see Dumars' reasoning on this. And there has been worse choices of head coaches, much less assistant coaches.

I think this is all on point. Truthfully, the real sin was hiring retread Mo Cheeks, who has never shown the necessary acumen to win NBA games. The Pistons are going to be bad for a while yet, so maybe they need a JAG to rack up Ls. I suppose Cheeks is decent enough on that score. But if Dumars thinks Cheeks is any kind of answer....

[Greg_Newton]

Two points:

1. I hear Rasheed was a really good coach in the summer league and even mentored the Duke guys.

2. To be classified as a "jerk" at Carolina you have a lot of competition. He is wa-a-a-y surpassed by such heroes as Jeff McInnis, Vince Carter, Rashad McCants, and Makhtiar Ndiaye.

sagegrouse

Yeah, it's hard not to like Sheed after the Pro-Am. Week after week, you'd have this current NBA player, a former perennial All-Star, showing up to play in that sweaty, east Durham gym, even when the college players decided to skip out and the crowd was pretty sparse. And he was always all-in - rebounding, hurling his typical, absurdly ambitious outlet passes, banging in the post, barking out orders to his guys, goofing around with the crowd after the games. You almost get the feeling that he would have been happier with a life of hanging out at the Lakewood Y all day than with a life as a celebrity athlete - for all his faults, the guy just loves to play basketball.

[NovaScotian]

i think sheed is probably tied with kendall marshall for my favorite unc players ever. he just has so much personality and really does seem to love the game. plus, that bald spot - love it.

[BD80]

I wish Joe would quit giving me reasons to add to this thread:

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/09/report-pistons-to-sign-italian-guard-gigi-datome/

Really? Gigi?

Isn't that a Maurice Chevalier movie from the 50s? Gigi=Leslie Caron?

Or a LOUSY Ben Affleck movie? Ben = Gigli?

Or a 50s beach romp movie turned 60s sitcom? Gidget=Sandra Dee or Sally Field?

A 6'9" Italian League MVP that likes to shoot from deep. What could go wrong there? Maybe Charlie Villanueva can take his spot for Virtus Roma, nobody on either team will know the difference.

[throatybeard]

It's a birthmark I've had since ninth grade.

[greybeard]

"I have long thought that Sheed's intolerance for "bad calls" had to do with his genius for the game. Sheed is a perfectionist who sees with clarity things on the court that others miss. The only coach that could and did still Sheed's rage was Larry Brown, whom I have also long believed was a basketball genius and perfectionist. Those qualities, in my view, were the reason that Brown so frequently burned out after coaching short stints with a team. Brown saw Sheed's brilliance for the game, used and respected it, and Sheed played terrifically. Dumars was a witness.

Dumars now knows just how big a mistake he made when he forced Brown out. If he hires Sheed, it will not be simply because he thinks that Sheed can help Detroit's big men reach their potential, but rather because he thinks that he can help Dumars' team reach its potential--figure out how the pieces can best fit together and help the pieces see, understand, and execute their roles to make the whole bigger than the sum of its parts.

Dumars should never have forced Brown out. Can Sheed be Dumars' new Larry Brown? Come on.

[BD80]

"I have long thought that Sheed's intolerance for "bad calls" had to do with his genius for the game. Sheed is a perfectionist who sees with clarity things on the court that others miss. The only coach that could and did still Sheed's rage was Larry Brown, whom I have also long believed was a basketball genius and perfectionist. Those qualities, in my view, were the reason that Brown so frequently burned out after coaching short stints with a team. Brown saw Sheed's brilliance for the game, used and respected it, and Sheed played terrifically. Dumars was a witness.

Dumars now knows just how big a mistake he made when he forced Brown out. If he hires Sheed, it will not be simply because he thinks that Sheed can help Detroit's big men reach their potential, but rather because he thinks that he can help Dumars' team reach its potential--figure out how the pieces can best fit together and help the pieces see, understand, and execute their roles to make the whole bigger than the sum of its parts.

Dumars should never have forced Brown out. Can Sheed be Dumars' new Larry Brown? Come on.

Sheed's "intolerance" led to a bench technical in his first game as a coach -- IN A SUMMER LEAGUE GAME!!!!!

[77devil]

The only coach that could and did still Sheed's rage was Larry Brown, whom I have also long believed was a basketball genius and perfectionist. Those qualities, in my view, were the reason that Brown so frequently burned out after coaching short stints with a team.

I doubt Dean would agree with you about coaching Rasheed or your assessment of Larry Brown. He seemed to coach Sheed just fine. Brown's short stints in college coaching were more likely because the NCAA investigators were about to invoke sanctions as he bailed. Larry's nomadic journey in the NBA was more attributable to his massive ego and narcissism such that players simply ignored him after a couple of seasons.

Larry was salivating for the UNC job when Guthridge retired. Dean knew better.

[BD80]

Sigh. More evidence:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/detroit-pistons-agree-deal-Chauncey-Billups-free-agency-071113

Chauncey freakin' Billups?

He'll be 37 when the season starts and he's coming off a torn ACL. Oh sure, HE'LL be able to stay in front of Kyrie, or DWill, or Rondo, or DRose, or Wall, or even Tyler freakin' Hansbrough.

They re-signed Will Bynum as backup PG, they have the putative PG of the future in Brandon Knight (but he may be a combo guard), and Rodney Stuckey, the previous PG of the future, who is a now combo guard at best, and more an off guard (which mostly describes his shooting). I'm guessing PG Peyton Siva won't make it past the training camp.

Then they have the parade of "shooting" guards, led by #1 pick Kentavious Caldwell Pope and Kim English. Add "wings" Khris Middleton and Kyle Singler, and there is a bit of a backlog at the guard spot, but not much talent.

Why sign Chauncey?

[Des Esseintes]

"I have long thought that Sheed's intolerance for "bad calls" had to do with his genius for the game. Sheed is a perfectionist who sees with clarity things on the court that others miss. The only coach that could and did still Sheed's rage was Larry Brown, whom I have also long believed was a basketball genius and perfectionist. Those qualities, in my view, were the reason that Brown so frequently burned out after coaching short stints with a team. Brown saw Sheed's brilliance for the game, used and respected it, and Sheed played terrifically. Dumars was a witness.

Did the "genius" ever "see with clarity" that his getting tossed from the game would have a suboptimal effect on his team's chances of winning?

[greybeard]

Did the "genius" ever "see with clarity" that his getting tossed from the game would have a suboptimal effect on his team's chances of winning?

HE DID MANAGE TO STAY IN THE LEAGUE AND AWFUL LONG TIME AND Detroit DOESN'T WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP WITHOUT HIM. IT MUST HAVE BEEN HIS INCREDIBLE TALENT AS (1) A SHO9OTER; OR WAS IT (2) A SCORER? OR WAS IT (3) A PASSER; NOR WAS IT (4) A MOVER WITHOUT THE BALL; OR WAS IT (5) A FINISHER; (5) OR WAS IT (6) AN OFFENSIVE REBOUNDER: OR WAS IT (7) A DEFENSIVE REB0UNDER: OR WAS IT (8) AN OFF THE BALL DEFENDER: OR WAS IT (9) AN ON THE BALL DEFENDER; (10) OR WAS IT HIS ABILITY TO CREATE HIS OWN SHOT; (11) OR WAS IT . . . .

SOMEHOW, FOR WOME REASON, GMs AND COACHES KEPT THIS GUY AROUND, AND FOR SOM,E REASON HE PLAYED AWFULLY WELL FOR BROWN WHEN DETROIT EEKED OUT AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP AND WHEN SHEED PLAYED QUITE UNSELFISHLY.

WE'LL HAVE TO JUST STAY IN THE DARK ABOUT THE WHY OF SHEED'S LONGEVITY IN THE LEAGUE NOTWITHSTANDING HIS PENCHANT FOR TECHNICALS, WHERE THAT PENCHANT CAME FROM, AND WHY SHEED PLAYED SO SPECTULARLY WELL IN A SEEMINGLY UNSPECTULAR ROLE FOR BROWN, ETC. THE LIGHT HAS TO SHINE SOMEWHERE; OR PERHAPS NOT.

BROWN'S HISTORY OF HAVING GIVEN A KID A TICKET TO GET HOME TO SEE HIS DYING GRANDMA AND WHATEVER VIOLATIONS HE ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED WHILE AT UCLA THAT DID NOT PRECEDE HIM, WELL, I COME NOT TO NOT DEFEND BROWN FOR THEM NOR TO HONOR HIM. AS FOR HIS RECORD, NOMADIC THOUGH IT MAY HAVE BEEN, THE SAME. I DO THINK THAT HE IS BRILLIANT AND THAT THAT BRILLIANCE NOT ONLY COMES FROM HIS ABIOITY TO SEE HOW PARTS FIT TOGETHER AND TEACHING EACH INDIVIDUAL THE ROLE HE SHOULD PLAY, BUT ALSO TEACHING EACH OF THE PLAYERS THE ROLES THE OTHERS NEEDED TO PLAY TO MAXIMIZE THEIR COLLECTIVE PERFORMANCE AS A TEAM. TO PLACE WORDS AROUND ACTIONS SUCH THAT SPEAKER AND LISTENER ARE ON THE SAME PAGE, AND SUCH THAT A GROUP OF PLAYERS ALL UNDERSTAND THE LINGO ASSOCIATED WITH INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE AS CONTRIBUTING TO TEAM PERFORMANCE TO ME IS AN EXTRAORDINARY ACCOMPLISHMENT.

THOSE QUALITIES CAME TOGETHER IN THE PERSON OF LARRY BROWN. HE GAVE/TAUGHT WHAT HE COULD, MADE PLAYERS BETTER/SMARTER/MORE EFFECTIVE/ MORE COHESIVE IN A SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME THAN ANYONE IN THE GAME OF COACHING. HE HAD NO ONE FORMULA.

SHEED, I BELIEVE, WAS ON A LEVEL TO APPRECIATE BROWN'S TALENTS AND UNDERSTAND THAT HIS OWN GENIUS WAS APPRECIATED BY BROWN.

DUMARS IS NO DUMMY AND GOT RID OF BROWN ONLY BECAUSE OF HUBRIS AND AMBITION; DUMARS WANTED THE CREDIT FOR WINNING THE NEXT CHAMPIONSHIP AND THE ONE THAT HAD JUST BEEN WON; TO THATR END, HE GOT RID OF BROWN ONLY THERE WAS NO NEXT CHAMPIONSHIP AND I THINK THAT DUMARS CAME QUICKLY TO UNDERSTAND THAT GETTING RID OF BROWN WAS OH SUCH A WRONG THING TO DO.

AS FOR SHEED'S SELF-SABOTAGING BEHAVIOR, NOTHING IS MORE COMMON AMONG BRILLIANT PERFORMERS THAN TO BE INTOLERANT OF LESSER MEN WHO GET IT WRONG WHEN ATTEMPTING TO JUDGE AND CONTROL THAT WHICH THEY DON'T SEE AND CANNOT COMPREHEND. THE DEFINITION OF THE ARTIST, NO?

[jimsumner]

HE DID MANAGE TO STAY IN THE LEAGUE AND AWFUL LONG TIME AND Detroit DOESN'T WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP WITHOUT HIM. IT MUST HAVE BEEN HIS INCREDIBLE TALENT AS (1) A SHO9OTER; OR WAS IT (2) A SCORER? OR WAS IT (3) A PASSER; NOR WAS IT (4) A MOVER WITHOUT THE BALL; OR WAS IT (5) A FINISHER; (5) OR WAS IT (6) AN OFFENSIVE REBOUNDER: OR WAS IT (7) A DEFENSIVE REB0UNDER: OR WAS IT (8) AN OFF THE BALL DEFENDER: OR WAS IT (9) AN ON THE BALL DEFENDER; (10) OR WAS IT HIS ABILITY TO CREATE HIS OWN SHOT; (11) OR WAS IT . . . .

SOMEHOW, FOR WOME REASON, GMs AND COACHES KEPT THIS GUY AROUND, AND FOR SOM,E REASON HE PLAYED AWFULLY WELL FOR BROWN WHEN DETROIT EEKED OUT AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP AND WHEN SHEED PLAYED QUITE UNSELFISHLY.

WE'LL HAVE TO JUST STAY IN THE DARK ABOUT THE WHY OF SHEED'S LONGEVITY IN THE LEAGUE NOTWITHSTANDING HIS PENCHANT FOR TECHNICALS, WHERE THAT PENCHANT CAME FROM, AND WHY SHEED PLAYED SO SPECTULARLY WELL IN A SEEMINGLY UNSPECTULAR ROLE FOR BROWN, ETC. THE LIGHT HAS TO SHINE SOMEWHERE; OR PERHAPS NOT.

BROWN'S HISTORY OF HAVING GIVEN A KID A TICKET TO GET HOME TO SEE HIS DYING GRANDMA AND WHATEVER VIOLATIONS HE ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED WHILE AT UCLA THAT DID NOT PRECEDE HIM, WELL, I COME NOT TO NOT DEFEND BROWN FOR THEM NOR TO HONOR HIM. AS FOR HIS RECORD, NOMADIC THOUGH IT MAY HAVE BEEN, THE SAME. I DO THINK THAT HE IS BRILLIANT AND THAT THAT BRILLIANCE NOT ONLY COMES FROM HIS ABIOITY TO SEE HOW PARTS FIT TOGETHER AND TEACHING EACH INDIVIDUAL THE ROLE HE SHOULD PLAY, BUT ALSO TEACHING EACH OF THE PLAYERS THE ROLES THE OTHERS NEEDED TO PLAY TO MAXIMIZE THEIR COLLECTIVE PERFORMANCE AS A TEAM. TO PLACE WORDS AROUND ACTIONS SUCH THAT SPEAKER AND LISTENER ARE ON THE SAME PAGE, AND SUCH THAT A GROUP OF PLAYERS ALL UNDERSTAND THE LINGO ASSOCIATED WITH INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE AS CONTRIBUTING TO TEAM PERFORMANCE TO ME IS AN EXTRAORDINARY ACCOMPLISHMENT.

THOSE QUALITIES CAME TOGETHER IN THE PERSON OF LARRY BROWN. HE GAVE/TAUGHT WHAT HE COULD, MADE PLAYERS BETTER/SMARTER/MORE EFFECTIVE/ MORE COHESIVE IN A SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME THAN ANYONE IN THE GAME OF COACHING. HE HAD NO ONE FORMULA.

SHEED, I BELIEVE, WAS ON A LEVEL TO APPRECIATE BROWN'S TALENTS AND UNDERSTAND THAT HIS OWN GENIUS WAS APPRECIATED BY BROWN.

DUMARS IS NO DUMMY AND GOT RID OF BROWN ONLY BECAUSE OF HUBRIS AND AMBITION; DUMARS WANTED THE CREDIT FOR WINNING THE NEXT CHAMPIONSHIP AND THE ONE THAT HAD JUST BEEN WON; TO THATR END, HE GOT RID OF BROWN ONLY THERE WAS NO NEXT CHAMPIONSHIP AND I THINK THAT DUMARS CAME QUICKLY TO UNDERSTAND THAT GETTING RID OF BROWN WAS OH SUCH A WRONG THING TO DO.

AS FOR SHEED'S SELF-SABOTAGING BEHAVIOR, NOTHING IS MORE COMMON AMONG BRILLIANT PERFORMERS THAN TO BE INTOLERANT OF LESSER MEN WHO GET IT WRONG WHEN ATTEMPTING TO JUDGE AND CONTROL THAT WHICH THEY DON'T SEE AND CANNOT COMPREHEND. THE DEFINITION OF THE ARTIST, NO?

Please take off the caps lock.

[Des Esseintes]

HE DID MANAGE TO STAY IN THE LEAGUE AND AWFUL LONG TIME AND Detroit DOESN'T WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP WITHOUT HIM. IT MUST HAVE BEEN HIS INCREDIBLE TALENT AS (1) A SHO9OTER; OR WAS IT (2) A SCORER? OR WAS IT (3) A PASSER; NOR WAS IT (4) A MOVER WITHOUT THE BALL; OR WAS IT (5) A FINISHER; (5) OR WAS IT (6) AN OFFENSIVE REBOUNDER: OR WAS IT (7) A DEFENSIVE REB0UNDER: OR WAS IT (8) AN OFF THE BALL DEFENDER: OR WAS IT (9) AN ON THE BALL DEFENDER; (10) OR WAS IT HIS ABILITY TO CREATE HIS OWN SHOT; (11) OR WAS IT . . . .

SOMEHOW, FOR WOME REASON, GMs AND COACHES KEPT THIS GUY AROUND, AND FOR SOM,E REASON HE PLAYED AWFULLY WELL FOR BROWN WHEN DETROIT EEKED OUT AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP AND WHEN SHEED PLAYED QUITE UNSELFISHLY.

WE'LL HAVE TO JUST STAY IN THE DARK ABOUT THE WHY OF SHEED'S LONGEVITY IN THE LEAGUE NOTWITHSTANDING HIS PENCHANT FOR TECHNICALS, WHERE THAT PENCHANT CAME FROM, AND WHY SHEED PLAYED SO SPECTULARLY WELL IN A SEEMINGLY UNSPECTULAR ROLE FOR BROWN, ETC. THE LIGHT HAS TO SHINE SOMEWHERE; OR PERHAPS NOT.

BROWN'S HISTORY OF HAVING GIVEN A KID A TICKET TO GET HOME TO SEE HIS DYING GRANDMA AND WHATEVER VIOLATIONS HE ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED WHILE AT UCLA THAT DID NOT PRECEDE HIM, WELL, I COME NOT TO NOT DEFEND BROWN FOR THEM NOR TO HONOR HIM. AS FOR HIS RECORD, NOMADIC THOUGH IT MAY HAVE BEEN, THE SAME. I DO THINK THAT HE IS BRILLIANT AND THAT THAT BRILLIANCE NOT ONLY COMES FROM HIS ABIOITY TO SEE HOW PARTS FIT TOGETHER AND TEACHING EACH INDIVIDUAL THE ROLE HE SHOULD PLAY, BUT ALSO TEACHING EACH OF THE PLAYERS THE ROLES THE OTHERS NEEDED TO PLAY TO MAXIMIZE THEIR COLLECTIVE PERFORMANCE AS A TEAM. TO PLACE WORDS AROUND ACTIONS SUCH THAT SPEAKER AND LISTENER ARE ON THE SAME PAGE, AND SUCH THAT A GROUP OF PLAYERS ALL UNDERSTAND THE LINGO ASSOCIATED WITH INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE AS CONTRIBUTING TO TEAM PERFORMANCE TO ME IS AN EXTRAORDINARY ACCOMPLISHMENT.

THOSE QUALITIES CAME TOGETHER IN THE PERSON OF LARRY BROWN. HE GAVE/TAUGHT WHAT HE COULD, MADE PLAYERS BETTER/SMARTER/MORE EFFECTIVE/ MORE COHESIVE IN A SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME THAN ANYONE IN THE GAME OF COACHING. HE HAD NO ONE FORMULA.

SHEED, I BELIEVE, WAS ON A LEVEL TO APPRECIATE BROWN'S TALENTS AND UNDERSTAND THAT HIS OWN GENIUS WAS APPRECIATED BY BROWN.

DUMARS IS NO DUMMY AND GOT RID OF BROWN ONLY BECAUSE OF HUBRIS AND AMBITION; DUMARS WANTED THE CREDIT FOR WINNING THE NEXT CHAMPIONSHIP AND THE ONE THAT HAD JUST BEEN WON; TO THATR END, HE GOT RID OF BROWN ONLY THERE WAS NO NEXT CHAMPIONSHIP AND I THINK THAT DUMARS CAME QUICKLY TO UNDERSTAND THAT GETTING RID OF BROWN WAS OH SUCH A WRONG THING TO DO.

AS FOR SHEED'S SELF-SABOTAGING BEHAVIOR, NOTHING IS MORE COMMON AMONG BRILLIANT PERFORMERS THAN TO BE INTOLERANT OF LESSER MEN WHO GET IT WRONG WHEN ATTEMPTING TO JUDGE AND CONTROL THAT WHICH THEY DON'T SEE AND CANNOT COMPREHEND. THE DEFINITION OF THE ARTIST, NO?

Juwan Howard just finished his 19th NBA season. That's three more than Wallace. Is he a super-duper-genius? Antoine Walker played 12 seasons, four fewer than Wallace. Does that mean Antoine Walker is merely a brilliantly intelligent basketball player?

But you are right about one thing. Rasheed Wallace behaved on the court the way he did because he had no respect for what he considered "lesser men."

[greybeard]

Juwan Howard just finished his 19th NBA season. That's three more than Wallace. Is he a super-duper-genius? Antoine Walker played 12 seasons, four fewer than Wallace. Does that mean Antoine Walker is merely a brilliantly intelligent basketball player?

But you are right about one thing. Rasheed Wallace behaved on the court the way he did because he had no respect for what he considered "lesser men."

Juan, you bet, although his genius was/is in team building, less so than in a grasp of the game that few have. Wallace is one of those that does. Antoine, my friend Belkin thought he was immensely talented, immensely, and that all he needed was structure, an adult mentor. Regrettably, Belkin lost control of the Hawks before he was able to provide it.

I might well be wrong in my assessment of where Wallace's best talent lies, but I don't get why you think Wallace lasted in the league as long as he did, and is being considered as a coach by Dumars, notwithstanding his penchant for drawing technicals.

I do not think that Monroe needs a coach to help him see and understand the game. In fact, Monroe and Singler I think form a nucleus around which a high level game can be organized, that is, they both see and execute in rarified air. The challenge for Detroit is to bring the other guys into the realm that Monroe and Singler occupy, and to help Monroe and Singler understand on an even finer level how the particular group that they are playing with can maximize its effectiveness, that is, help them see how each individual's game can be utilized and enhanced to make the whole stronger. Rasheed, I believe, can help them do that, just as Brown helped him.

That's my take on what made Sheed so valuable and effective as a player. I haven't heard a better theory yet; I'm not saying that there isn't one, just that I haven't heard (read) it here.

[Des Esseintes]

Juan, you bet, although his genius was/is in team building, less so than in a grasp of the game that few have. Wallace is one of those that does. Antoine, my friend Belkin thought he was immensely talented, immensely, and that all he needed was structure, an adult mentor. Regrettably, Belkin lost control of the Hawks before he was able to provide it.

I might well be wrong in my assessment of where Wallace's best talent lies, but I don't get why you think Wallace lasted in the league as long as he did, and is being considered as a coach by Dumars, notwithstanding his penchant for drawing technicals.

I do not think that Monroe needs a coach to help him see and understand the game. In fact, Monroe and Singler I think form a nucleus around which a high level game can be organized, that is, they both see and execute in rarified air. The challenge for Detroit is to bring the other guys into the realm that Monroe and Singler occupy, and to help Monroe and Singler understand on an even finer level how the particular group that they are playing with can maximize its effectiveness, that is, help them see how each individual's game can be utilized and enhanced to make the whole stronger. Rasheed, I believe, can help them do that, just as Brown helped him.

That's my take on what made Sheed so valuable and effective as a player. I haven't heard a better theory yet; I'm not saying that there isn't one, just that I haven't heard (read) it here.

Rasheed Wallace lasted in the NBA for as long as he did because 1) he was a fantastically talented player, and 2) he had an admirable commitment to keep playing basketball. He might be a decent coach, for all I know. But I never said otherwise.

What I objected to in your posts was you hand-waving away his childish and team-harming aggression toward referees as the mere by-product of genius and art. LeBron is a genius on the court. Chris Paul is a genius on the court. Steve Nash is a genius on the court. None of these guys, for all their next level vision and Federerian comprehension of angles, *ever* came anywhere near the petulance Wallace allowed to define his career. If people are skeptical of him as a leader, he has no one to blame but himself.

[blazindw]

Rasheed Wallace lasted in the NBA for as long as he did because 1) he was a fantastically talented player, and 2) he had an admirable commitment to keep playing basketball. He might be a decent coach, for all I know. But I never said otherwise.

What I objected to in your posts was you hand-waving away his childish and team-harming aggression toward referees as the mere by-product of genius and art. LeBron is a genius on the court. Chris Paul is a genius on the court. Steve Nash is a genius on the court. None of these guys, for all their next level vision and Federerian comprehension of angles, *ever* came anywhere near the petulance Wallace allowed to define his career. If people are skeptical of him as a leader, he has no one to blame but himself.

He also stayed in the league in part because players who played with him love him...he always protected his teammates and stood up for them. "Guaransheeds" came about because he had faith in his teammates to help deliver. Sure, he got enough technicals in one season to cover some teams for a few seasons, but a lot of Pistons players stood up for him when he played in Detroit and said they appreciated him getting at referees about particular calls. Even if he got a tech for it, the call he was arguing was on the referees' radars afterwards. That helps his teammates as well.

[greybeard]

Rasheed Wallace lasted in the NBA for as long as he did because 1) he was a fantastically talented player, and 2) he had an admirable commitment to keep playing basketball. He might be a decent coach, for all I know. But I never said otherwise.

What I objected to in your posts was you hand-waving away his childish and team-harming aggression toward referees as the mere by-product of genius and art. LeBron is a genius on the court. Chris Paul is a genius on the court. Steve Nash is a genius on the court. None of these guys, for all their next level vision and Federerian comprehension of angles, *ever* came anywhere near the petulance Wallace allowed to define his career. If people are skeptical of him as a leader, he has no one to blame but himself.

Perfectionist and genius are different things. Rasheed and Brown, in my view, are both. I don't think that the others you mention are.

In addition, the genius of LeBron and Paul, in my view, is difficult to separate from their genius at executing with the ball in their hands. Their ability to hurt people by putting the ball in the basket in so many ways that they are able to help others on their respective teams play more effectively. Take away that ability and I am not sure how much "genius" we would see. The same might be said of Nash, although I do not think so. Nash gets much of his potency on the court through his ability to give the ball up and get it back and give it up and get it back with opportunities opening by a team that comes to share the ball off quick one-two combinations.

Brown and Sheed I believe not only have multilayered understandings of what can unfold on the court but also an obsessive attachment to seeing "the" appropriate resolution to a riff that has begun. Brown, the teacher, can live in the moment with the imperfections and has an unusual ability to communicate with players on the court so that they understand what the court is making available and how Brown sees their utilizing themselves and their teammates to make the available real. Rasheed sees before he hears but when he hears from someone like Brown it resonates exquisitely. Like Brown, Raheed can live with the inability of others on his team to see/understand/carry through on the best avenues; what he cannot tolerate is a referee with authority getting it wrong and stopping the music from resolving.

LeBron and Paul depend on themselves to "make" the music; their teammates riff off it. A referee can get in their way by calling what is not there or failing to call what is, and that will get to them, especially LeBron, but not to the same extent that the exquisite pain felt by Rasheed. That said, if LeBron got away (in terms of walking, in particular) with less, and was T'ed up for upstaging referees whenever they missed a call that went against him individually, I am not so sure that he would be seen as the paragon of virtue/excellence we have made of him. And, yes, I do think that he gets calls, and certainly no-calls, much more than other headline players, and that the walks that are not called help make him the force at the end of games that he is. Just my view.

Nash, as I have said, gets his teammates to play the beautiful game (think FC Barcelona here), which ends up putting him in the center of it all (think Iniesta here with a small ting of Messi). With no one occupying the ball for very long and with Nash never moving at break neck speed or elevating to score the ball, there is a very small window through which referee wrong calls can impact on the game that Nash's genius creates.

Paul, as I see it, needs only time with the dribble and tolerance of that push off with his left arm to dominate in the half court, creating his own shot at near anytime (that push off almost always creates sufficient space) and because of his insane skill at breaking people down or hurting them with his shot, creates magic. I do not think that he so much elevates the game of his teammates as lets them feed off him, needs them to feed off him.

Do I think that LeBron, Paul, Nash are more brilliant ball players than Rasheed? Absolutely. Do I think that they see/feel/understand more deeply then Rasheed? No. Nor do I think that those things are anywhere near as close to the core of who they are as ballplayers as they are to who Rasheed is a basketball devote. Rasheed is a perfectionist, who tolerates, understands, accepts less from his teammates than he does from himself and his teammates, and came to find relative peace when playing under Brown whose coaching brought Rasheed's teammates to a much higher level and helped Rasheed understand his own special gift, rather than be a prisoner to it.

Rasheed was nowhere near the talent of a LeBron, Paul, or Nash and did not have the ball in his hands enough to influence the game the way any of the three have. I think that none of them have Rasheed's perfectionist bent, and that they all

I think that they are haunted by the perfectionism that lies at Rasheed's core. No. Do I think that Rasheed had anywhere close to the ability to influence his team mates's play as the other three, No, and I do thin that that has been the source of an underlying feeling of distance, dis-ease on his part. Few bitg men have had the ability to influence play through the qualities that I think Rasheed possesses. Bill Russell, Bill Walton, and Arvydas Sabonis. There might be others but I cannot think of them. They all were better, more effective, ballplayers, than Rasheed, and in all probability less perfectionistic.

I hope that somewhere in all of this we get to whether Rasheed's flaws that lead to his drawing do many technical fouls wass due to childishness or something else. I cannot say definitively that you are wrong that it was not childish, and certainly that there was not an element of childishness in Rasheed's temperament. I do think, however, that it is more complicated.

[77devil]

Perfectionist and genius are different things. Rasheed and Brown, in my view, are both. I don't think that the others you mention are.

In addition, the genius of LeBron and Paul, in my view, is difficult to separate from their genius at executing with the ball in their hands. Their ability to hurt people by putting the ball in the basket in so many ways that they are able to help others on their respective teams play more effectively. Take away that ability and I am not sure how much "genius" we would see. The same might be said of Nash, although I do not think so. Nash gets much of his potency on the court through his ability to give the ball up and get it back and give it up and get it back with opportunities opening by a team that comes to share the ball off quick one-two combinations.

Brown and Sheed I believe not only have multilayered understandings of what can unfold on the court but also an obsessive attachment to seeing "the" appropriate resolution to a riff that has begun. Brown, the teacher, can live in the moment with the imperfections and has an unusual ability to communicate with players on the court so that they understand what the court is making available and how Brown sees their utilizing themselves and their teammates to make the available real. Rasheed sees before he hears but when he hears from someone like Brown it resonates exquisitely. Like Brown, Raheed can live with the inability of others on his team to see/understand/carry through on the best avenues; what he cannot tolerate is a referee with authority getting it wrong and stopping the music from resolving.

LeBron and Paul depend on themselves to "make" the music; their teammates riff off it. A referee can get in their way by calling what is not there or failing to call what is, and that will get to them, especially LeBron, but not to the same extent that the exquisite pain felt by Rasheed. That said, if LeBron got away (in terms of walking, in particular) with less, and was T'ed up for upstaging referees whenever they missed a call that went against him individually, I am not so sure that he would be seen as the paragon of virtue/excellence we have made of him. And, yes, I do think that he gets calls, and certainly no-calls, much more than other headline players, and that the walks that are not called help make him the force at the end of games that he is. Just my view.

Nash, as I have said, gets his teammates to play the beautiful game (think FC Barcelona here), which ends up putting him in the center of it all (think Iniesta here with a small ting of Messi). With no one occupying the ball for very long and with Nash never moving at break neck speed or elevating to score the ball, there is a very small window through which referee wrong calls can impact on the game that Nash's genius creates.

Paul, as I see it, needs only time with the dribble and tolerance of that push off with his left arm to dominate in the half court, creating his own shot at near anytime (that push off almost always creates sufficient space) and because of his insane skill at breaking people down or hurting them with his shot, creates magic. I do not think that he so much elevates the game of his teammates as lets them feed off him, needs them to feed off him.

Do I think that LeBron, Paul, Nash are more brilliant ball players than Rasheed? Absolutely. Do I think that they see/feel/understand more deeply then Rasheed? No. Nor do I think that those things are anywhere near as close to the core of who they are as ballplayers as they are to who Rasheed is a basketball devote. Rasheed is a perfectionist, who tolerates, understands, accepts less from his teammates than he does from himself and his teammates, and came to find relative peace when playing under Brown whose coaching brought Rasheed's teammates to a much higher level and helped Rasheed understand his own special gift, rather than be a prisoner to it.

Rasheed was nowhere near the talent of a LeBron, Paul, or Nash and did not have the ball in his hands enough to influence the game the way any of the three have. I think that none of them have Rasheed's perfectionist bent, and that they all

I think that they are haunted by the perfectionism that lies at Rasheed's core. No. Do I think that Rasheed had anywhere close to the ability to influence his team mates's play as the other three, No, and I do thin that that has been the source of an underlying feeling of distance, dis-ease on his part. Few bitg men have had the ability to influence play through the qualities that I think Rasheed possesses. Bill Russell, Bill Walton, and Arvydas Sabonis. There might be others but I cannot think of them. They all were better, more effective, ballplayers, than Rasheed, and in all probability less perfectionistic.

I hope that somewhere in all of this we get to whether Rasheed's flaws that lead to his drawing do many technical fouls wass due to childishness or something else. I cannot say definitively that you are wrong that it was not childish, and certainly that there was not an element of childishness in Rasheed's temperament. I do think, however, that it is more complicated.

This is painfully long, full of unsubstantiated opinion IMHO. Suggest you apply Occam's Razor to your hypotheses. In this instance, isn't the charactiture of Rasheed as an immature, self indulgent person the simplest, and therefore, most likely explanation.

[greybeard]

This is painfully long, full of unsubstantiated opinion IMHO. Suggest you apply Occam's Razor to your hypotheses. In this instance, isn't the charactiture of Rasheed as an immature, self indulgent person the simplest, and therefore, most likely explanation.

Perhaps. However, the simplest cannot explain, among other things, his extraordinary longevity in the league, his mature and very effective play under
Brown that helped Detroit win a championship, and Dumars' serious consideration of Rasheed for a coaching position.

I do not recall his teammates and coaches over the years describe or lable Rasheed in the terms the media and many people here have, even after he has left to play elsewhere. Is it really the case that Danny would have brought an Rasheed on board to help make what was likely to be a championship run for an aging "Big Three" if "immature and self indulgent" is what he saw. Chemistry was too important to that group, at least as I saw it.

Listen, I have long seen Rasheed as a brilliant player whose shortcoming was his need for perfection from referees whose oinconsistencies and manifest unwillingness to call games straight up are maddening to all of us and detract from the game. The case that he was/is both brilliant and "the perfectionist" became very apparent to me when Rasheed played for Brown. Rasheed's ability to adjust to Brown's ability to tweak play on the fly from the bench, an ability that was extraordinary given that this was his first season under Brown, was to me extraordinary. The fact that his demons quieted under Brown was proof to me that his need for perfection had been quelled by a coach who was driven by that same need and knew how to calm it. Rasheed's presence also just happened to coincide with Billip's ability to see value in the inside game, not simply of Rasheed's but more importantly Ben's.
I think that all this bespeaks a much more complex and "brilliant" perfectionist than an immature and self indulgent person." But, that is just me. There are other ways to look at him, his body of work, and his having been sought after as a missing piece for so many contenders.