Austin's Dad Clipped

[BD80]

http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/games/commissioner?ttag=FFBC13_cspt_mov_push_0001

Doc traded by Celts to Clippers for a 2015 1st round pick.

[Duvall]

Pretty sadistic of Danny Ainge to sentence Doc to spend the rest of his contract working for Donald Sterling. It's a shame coaches don't have a union that could file a grievance for this move.

[CDu]

Pretty sadistic of Danny Ainge to sentence Doc to spend the rest of his contract working for Donald Sterling. It's a shame coaches don't have a union that could file a grievance for this move.

I'm not sure if this was just intended as humor or not, but this is a move that Rivers wanted to happen. He gets out of the rebuilding effort in Boston and he gets to coach Chris Paul and either Blake Griffin or Dwight Howard.

[brevity]

I look forward to Brian Shaw getting interviewed and then passed over by the Celtics. He'll then set the record for most second place coaching search finishes in a single offseason.

[theAlaskanBear]

I look forward to Brian Shaw getting interviewed and then passed over by the Celtics. He'll then set the record for most second place coaching search finishes in a single offseason.

From what I understand, his dedication the the triangle is the reason he doesn't get hired. There is a lot of skepticism about the triangle....and the feasibility of implementing it.

[tommy]

I think this is a bad move by the Clippers. I didn't understand dismissing Vinny to begin with. All he did was lead them to the best season in the franchise's history. And now giving up a #1 pick for a coach? I just am not that convinced that, with very few exceptions -- like Phil Jackson and his motivational abilities, and a few others -- that coaches make all that much of a difference at the pro level. Most of them are doing very similar things. Sure, there are some differences at the margins, but I don't know that you could point to very much that is tangible that makes Doc Rivers a huge upgrade over Vinny Del Negro. When Doc has had the best players, he's gotten to Finals and won a championship. When he hasn't had the best players, like the last couple years in Boston and during his tenure in Orlando, he hasn't come particularly close. And besides the Clips giving up a #1 pick they're also going to pay him $7 million? $7 million for a coach?

The Clips had all the leverage here, and they blew it. Once Doc began to dilly dally with them, his tenure in Boston had to be done. He couldn't really go back there. The Clippers should've walked away, or maybe made a lowball offer, and if Boston turned them down, said "fine, see if you can get him back into your locker room. I don't think you can." And let eventually Boston cut him loose. Then LA could've signed him for whatever, and saved a #1 draft pick.

[Newton_14]

This is one practice that I wish would get eliminated in the NBA. Coaches should not be traded. In my opinion only players should be eligible to be traded. Very strange practice. If a coach wants to quit while under contract and seek employment elsewhere, he should have that right. He should have to pay a buyout penalty of course much like a college coach. Either the coach or the new team he is going to coach would be able to pay the buyout penalty fee. Just seems like a very weird and unfair practice to me.

Anyone know if the trade rule only applies to Head Coaches? What about assistant coaches or other staff members? Are any of them trade commodities? thanks

[theAlaskanBear]

I think this is a bad move by the Clippers. I didn't understand dismissing Vinny to begin with. All he did was lead them to the best season in the franchise's history. And now giving up a #1 pick for a coach? I just am not that convinced that, with very few exceptions -- like Phil Jackson and his motivational abilities, and a few others -- that coaches make all that much of a difference at the pro level. Most of them are doing very similar things. Sure, there are some differences at the margins, but I don't know that you could point to very much that is tangible that makes Doc Rivers a huge upgrade over Vinny Del Negro. When Doc has had the best players, he's gotten to Finals and won a championship. When he hasn't had the best players, like the last couple years in Boston and during his tenure in Orlando, he hasn't come particularly close. And besides the Clips giving up a #1 pick they're also going to pay him $7 million? $7 million for a coach?

The Clips had all the leverage here, and they blew it. Once Doc began to dilly dally with them, his tenure in Boston had to be done. He couldn't really go back there. The Clippers should've walked away, or maybe made a lowball offer, and if Boston turned them down, said "fine, see if you can get him back into your locker room. I don't think you can." And let eventually Boston cut him loose. Then LA could've signed him for whatever, and saved a #1 draft pick.

Scuttlebutt is that Chris Paul pretty much forced the trade. The Clips are desperate to resign him.

[BigWayne]

This is one practice that I wish would get eliminated in the NBA. Coaches should not be traded. In my opinion only players should be eligible to be traded. Very strange practice. If a coach wants to quit while under contract and seek employment elsewhere, he should have that right. He should have to pay a buyout penalty of course much like a college coach. Either the coach or the new team he is going to coach would be able to pay the buyout penalty fee. Just seems like a very weird and unfair practice to me.

Anyone know if the trade rule only applies to Head Coaches? What about assistant coaches or other staff members? Are any of them trade commodities? thanks
I don't know for sure, but I would assume that NBA coach contracts are not dictated by the CBA like the player contracts are. If that is the case, a team and a coach are free to write up the contract however they want. Contracts almost always have language that covers what will happen if one party wants to break the contract. The breaking of the contract, in this case by the coach, requires compensation for the other party, the team. What compensation was given other than whatever was originally spelled out in the contract, then becomes negotiable. Your statements above could all be handled by demands from the coach going into the contract. Of course, the team might not agree to those demands and hire someone else less demanding. There is no coach trade rule. The Clippers could have paid cash compensation if they negotiated it. In fact, they could have offered almost anything of value to the Celtics.

[Newton_14]

I don't know for sure, but I would assume that NBA coach contracts are not dictated by the CBA like the player contracts are. If that is the case, a team and a coach are free to write up the contract however they want. Contracts almost always have language that covers what will happen if one party wants to break the contract. The breaking of the contract, in this case by the coach, requires compensation for the other party, the team. What compensation was given other than whatever was originally spelled out in the contract, then becomes negotiable. Your statements above could all be handled by demands from the coach going into the contract. Of course, the team might not agree to those demands and hire someone else less demanding. There is no coach trade rule. The Clippers could have paid cash compensation if they negotiated it. In fact, they could have offered almost anything of value to the Celtics.

Ok. Thanks for the explanation. That helps (I think). So it all depends on how the contract is written for each individual team/coach, and coaches can't be "traded" for players unless that language is in the contract. Still seems odd, but then again, there was once a minor league baseball player who was traded for 400 bats. :)

[sagegrouse]

I think this is a bad move by the Clippers. I didn't understand dismissing Vinny to begin with. All he did was lead them to the best season in the franchise's history. .

According to numerous reports, Vinny wore out his welcome in the front office by freelancing trade talks with other clubs. Vinny, of course, has made his contribution to basketball in other ways, such as the classic by his college coach, Jim Valvano: "Vinney Del Negro isn't playing because he's Italian. He's playing because I'm Italian."

sagegrouse

[miramar]

Is Austin Rivers the only NBA player who makes way less than his dad?

[Des Esseintes]

I think this is a bad move by the Clippers. I didn't understand dismissing Vinny to begin with. All he did was lead them to the best season in the franchise's history. And now giving up a #1 pick for a coach? I just am not that convinced that, with very few exceptions -- like Phil Jackson and his motivational abilities, and a few others -- that coaches make all that much of a difference at the pro level. Most of them are doing very similar things. Sure, there are some differences at the margins, but I don't know that you could point to very much that is tangible that makes Doc Rivers a huge upgrade over Vinny Del Negro. When Doc has had the best players, he's gotten to Finals and won a championship. When he hasn't had the best players, like the last couple years in Boston and during his tenure in Orlando, he hasn't come particularly close. And besides the Clips giving up a #1 pick they're also going to pay him $7 million? $7 million for a coach?

The Clips had all the leverage here, and they blew it. Once Doc began to dilly dally with them, his tenure in Boston had to be done. He couldn't really go back there. The Clippers should've walked away, or maybe made a lowball offer, and if Boston turned them down, said "fine, see if you can get him back into your locker room. I don't think you can." And let eventually Boston cut him loose. Then LA could've signed him for whatever, and saved a #1 draft pick.

We'll see. Coaching in the NBA has its limits, obviously, but on paper Rivers is a big upgrade over Del Negro. While many teams run similar stuff, the Clippers were famous last season for running a simplistic offense. They relied on the overwhelming talent of Paul and (to a lesser extent) Griffin to make them elite. It worked well enough in the regular season, but a seven-game series against a single elite defense will expose that lack of imagination as a weakness. The 2013 Memphis Grizzlies were a walking object lesson in postseason basketball: against LA and OKC, they strangled two higher-seeded but predictable offenses before getting blown off the court by San Antonio's sophistication. That's a reductive analysis on my part, not least because a similar Memphis team upset a similar Spurs team just two years ago, but I think it does stand to reason that variety helps against the best defenses while being less necessary during the regular season grind. Boston has been a declining offense for several seasons, but you could make the argument that Rivers got the maximum potency he could out of it most years. He had a (very gifted) point who refused to shoot, and an aging rotation in which only ancient Paul Pierce could get his own shot by himself. Yet as recently as a year ago they had Miami on the brink.

Nor are offensive sets and defensive schemes the only on-court difference a coach makes. The rotation is just as important. There's a decent chance Oklahoma City wins the '12 title or advances at least another round in '13 if Scotty Brooks is just willing to take Kendrick Perkins out of the starting lineup. In the case of the Clippers, the advanced-stats set was militating all season long for more time in which Paul and Bledsoe shared the court. If Paul re-signs, it's a good bet Rivers unleashes that tandem. In limited minutes, it was a monstrous advantage.

Honestly, Del Negro should never have even gotten the Clippers job. One need only look at what happened in his final season with Chicago versus Tom Thibodeau's first season there. Granted, a young team all got a year older and Boozer came in as a free agent, but come on. From .500 ball to 60+ wins. Chicago was much better this year, without Derrick Rose, with a gimpy Noah, with injuries all through the rotation, than it was Del Negro's final season with the Bulls. Bad coach. He must be an amazing job interview.

[JayBean]

Don't forget that the Clips still have a shot at KG. If he joins Doc with the Clippers, that should make the transition much quicker. Not sure how KG would mesh with Griffin, but I imagine he would get along pretty well with Paul.

With two trades, the Clippers would get a large portion of the experience/knowledge base of the Celtics, a team that took Miami to the brink not too long ago.

[darthur]

Scuttlebutt is that Chris Paul pretty much forced the trade. The Clips are desperate to resign him.

Probably true, but Chris Paul denies it strongly: http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9327713/chris-paul-upset-los-angeles-clippers-factor-impending-free-agency

Regardless of what the truth is, making your soon-to-be-free-agent star player into a public scapegoat seems like a pretty bad move for an owner...

[Duvall]

Is Austin Rivers the only NBA player who makes way less than his dad?

I suppose that would change if Drew II catches on somewhere.

[jmck214]

Don't forget that the Clips still have a shot at KG. If he joins Doc with the Clippers, that should make the transition much quicker. Not sure how KG would mesh with Griffin, but I imagine he would get along pretty well with Paul.

With two trades, the Clippers would get a large portion of the experience/knowledge base of the Celtics, a team that took Miami to the brink not too long ago.

Stern is going to block KG from going to LAC because you can't have a player and coach deal be dependent on the other. There's a chance they could involve a third team to get KG but its been rumored that stern is going to do everything he can to keep KG away from LA because KG was extremely outspoken and critical of Stern during the lockout.

I think this is a great move for either team. Paul was only going to resignif they brought in Doc. Somebody mentioned that Doc hasn't done much with the Celtics the last few years. Well he did have the Celtics up 3-2 on the heat in the ECF just last year in what I thought was his best coaching job with Boston considering he was without two starters due to injury

[BigWayne]

Ok. Thanks for the explanation. That helps (I think). So it all depends on how the contract is written for each individual team/coach, and coaches can't be "traded" for players unless that language is in the contract. Still seems odd, but then again, there was once a minor league baseball player who was traded for 400 bats. :) The trading is not likely in the contract. The issue at hand is that Rivers wanted to break the contract he had with the Celtics. In order to induce the Celtics to agree to the contract termination, the draft pick was offered as compensation rather than whatever language was in the contract originally as a penalty. They could have offered anything as compensation, cash, a herd of cows, free haircuts, etc. The draft pick likely came in because the Celtics wanted something more than just cash as the salary cap limits the value of cash to an NBA team. It's also handy for the Clippers as the future draft pick is an intangible asset without a specific cash value.

[theAlaskanBear]

Stern is going to block KG from going to LAC because you can't have a player and coach deal be dependent on the other. There's a chance they could involve a third team to get KG but its been rumored that stern is going to do everything he can to keep KG away from LA because KG was extremely outspoken and critical of Stern during the lockout.

I think this is a great move for either team. Paul was only going to resignif they brought in Doc. Somebody mentioned that Doc hasn't done much with the Celtics the last few years. Well he did have the Celtics up 3-2 on the heat in the ECF just last year in what I thought was his best coaching job with Boston considering he was without two starters due to injury

I doubt that Stern would be so vindictive toward KG...It's more a warning the owners and franchises. There are very specific salary cap rules for trading players -- trading for a coach in a handshake deal as part of a larger trade deal circumvents NBA rules.

You can offer picks and money for compensation for signing a coach under contract -- this happened when Orlando signed Stan Van from the Heat, but you can't trade for a coach. Thus, any subsequent deals between these two teams would very VERY HEAVILY scrutinized, because of the implication that the coach is really a condition of the player trade...

[theAlaskanBear]

Here is the relevant quote from David Stern --


"I would say, in the language of diplomacy, that the teams are aware that the collective bargaining agreement doesn't authorize trades involving coaches' contracts," Stern told ESPN Radio. "The only consideration that can be done here in player transactions is other players, draft picks and a very limited amount of cash. But coaches' contracts don't qualify as extra consideration — or acceptable consideration — in player contracts. The teams know that. It has been confirmed to them. What the rules won't allow can't be gotten around by breaking it up into two transactions."


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20130623/doc-rivers-boston-celtics-la-clippers-trade-donald-sterling/#ixzz2XBhkf6B3

I thought some people might find this interesting. This is from Larry Coon's CBA FAQ


103. Can teams find loopholes in the CBA and do things the league never intended to allow? What is circumvention?

As any league executive will tell you, the CBA isn't a list of the things teams can't do, it's a list of the things teams can do. The league operates in a "disallow by default" mode -- actions are not allowed except where the CBA specifically permits them.

In other words, teams aren't allowed to put anything into a player's contract that wasn't negotiated between the league and players association and included in the CBA. For example, a team signing a known drug offender couldn't insist on a "one strike and you're out" agreement or that the player attend mandatory drug counseling -- instead they must follow the negotiated drug program (see question number 106).

The CBA also has a general prohibition on circumvention which states that the rules exist to preserve the benefit derived by the teams and players, and that nobody shall do anything to defeat or circumvent the intent of the agreement. The league can use this prohibition to disallow a trade that they feel circumvents the CBA, even though that trade is not specifically prohibited by the agreement.

Examples of conduct considered to be circumvention include:

A team owner allowing a player to invest in a business or investment fund controlled by the owner or a friend of the owner.
A team executive assisting a player in obtaining a product endorsement.
Any "under the table" promises for a future contract (see question number 30).
A team's arena renting retail space to a player on the team.
A team selling a sponsorship to a business in which a player has an interest.
A team hiring a player's relative or business partner as an employee.
A team owner allowing a player the use of his private plane.
A company affiliated with a team's owner making a home available to one of the team's players.
Whenever a contract is signed, extended, renegotiated or otherwise amended, the team, player, and player's agent must certify, under penalty of perjury, that there are no side agreements or understandings of any kind relating to:

Any future contract, or future extension, renegotiation or amendment of the player's current contract.
Any outside compensation, investment, business opportunity or anything else of value furnished to the player or any other person or entity controlled by, related to, or acting on behalf of the player.
The intent of these rules is to ensure that the only agreement from which either the player or the team can benefit is the current, signed player contract. The rules extend to sponsors, business partners and other team affiliates, and to player agents, representatives and family members.

[Dev11]

I doubt that Stern would be so vindictive toward KG

This is David Stern we're talking about here, right? The famously abrasive genius who stops at nothing to control the league?

[BD80]

This is David Stern we're talking about here, right? The famously abrasive genius who stops at nothing to control the league?

Yeah. This guy:

3454

[theAlaskanBear]

This is David Stern we're talking about here, right? The famously abrasive genius who stops at nothing to control the league?

I can't tell if you are joking or not. Everything he has said has been about the two franchises, the celtics and the clips trying to get around the fact that you can't trade a coach, it violates the CBA...he is mad because the two teams thought they could get away with circumventing NBA rules, and that this has all played out so publicly. It violates the CBA, he is a lawyer who just enduring a lockout negotiating the new CBA, it has nothing to do with KG.

[brevity]

I doubt that Stern would be so vindictive toward KG...It's more a warning the owners and franchises. There are very specific salary cap rules for trading players -- trading for a coach in a handshake deal as part of a larger trade deal circumvents NBA rules.

You can offer picks and money for compensation for signing a coach under contract -- this happened when Orlando signed Stan Van from the Heat, but you can't trade for a coach. Thus, any subsequent deals between these two teams would very VERY HEAVILY scrutinized, because of the implication that the coach is really a condition of the player trade...


This is David Stern we're talking about here, right? The famously abrasive genius who stops at nothing to control the league?


Yeah. This guy:

3454

"I didn't spend three years in Evil Law School just to be called 'Stern,' thank you very much."

[Dev11]

Yeah. This guy:

3454

I cannot, so everybody must spork this person.

[lmb]

I can't help but wonder if Grant would have stayed one more year to play for Rivers. I wanted a championship for him so bad!:(