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Atlanta Duke
06-21-2013, 03:38 PM
Came across a 15 minute video interview of Mason by Bill Simmons & Jalen Rose on The Grantland Channel- some good stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7zOfWgXsHo&feature=youtu.be

CameronBlue
06-22-2013, 07:27 PM
Came across a 15 minute video interview of Mason by Bill Simmons & Jalen Rose on The Grantland Channel- some good stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7zOfWgXsHo&feature=youtu.be

Terrific interview, fresh format. The film session format gives it a behind the scenes locker room feel that seems far less contrived than most sports interviews, low cliche quotient, loved it Jalen takes a beating around here most of the time, deservedly so, but he was outstanding.

moonpie23
06-22-2013, 08:04 PM
can NOT enjoy jalen rose doing anything......sorry...

CameronBlue
06-22-2013, 08:20 PM
can NOT enjoy jalen rose doing anything......sorry...

I know. Which is why I wanted to post early in the thread before members of the Caliphate weighed in with the usual flogging. :D

theAlaskanBear
06-22-2013, 09:50 PM
Came across a 15 minute video interview of Mason by Bill Simmons & Jalen Rose on The Grantland Channel- some good stuff

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7zOfWgXsHo&feature=youtu.be

I don't know, I did like the interview, but I thought when they started breaking down video it got a little....lame. It's like they took the terrible Gruden interview format and applied it to basketball. Nothing makes me sicker than listen to Gruden talk to NFL prospects.

happydays1949
06-23-2013, 01:16 AM
can NOT enjoy jalen rose doing anything......sorry...

Well, I enjoyed it, especially Jalen Rose. And I liked the film also. Maybe I just don't follow pro ball enough to dislike both Jalen Rose and Bill Simmons!

moonpie23
06-23-2013, 08:58 AM
Well, I enjoyed it, especially Jalen Rose. And I liked the film also. Maybe I just don't follow pro ball enough to dislike both Jalen Rose and Bill Simmons!

pro ball has nothing to do with why i dislike jalen....

CDu
06-23-2013, 09:59 AM
Well, I enjoyed it, especially Jalen Rose. And I liked the film also. Maybe I just don't follow pro ball enough to dislike both Jalen Rose and Bill Simmons!

I think the folks that dislike Rose do so in large part because, during the Fab Five documentary, Rose recalled his feelings as a 19 year old as thinking Duke's black players were a bunch of uncle Toms.

His work as an analyst on the NBA is actually pretty good. But many can't get over that comment (even though it was said from the perspective of a 19-year-old who was - as he later admitted - just really jealous).

1999ballboy
06-23-2013, 11:24 AM
I think the folks that dislike Rose do so in large part because, during the Fab Five documentary, Rose recalled his feelings as a 19 year old as thinking Duke's black players were a bunch of uncle Toms.

His work as an analyst on the NBA is actually pretty good. But many can't get over that comment (even though it was said from the perspective of a 19-year-old who was - as he later admitted - just really jealous).
While I think this is true, in the immediate aftermath of the documentary he also did a lot of flip-flopping as to whether the "Uncle Tom" thing described his past feelings or his current ones. I think there was a part of him that was so mad at all of the hate he was getting that he wanted to continue to diss Duke just to get back at them.

I really enjoy most of his work, and that interview with Mason was very good. If anyone is a Bill Simmons fan, as I am, brace yourself before watching his Alex Len interview-- he gets in a couple of swipes at Duke there.

theAlaskanBear
06-23-2013, 12:17 PM
While I think this is true, in the immediate aftermath of the documentary he also did a lot of flip-flopping as to whether the "Uncle Tom" thing described his past feelings or his current ones. I think there was a part of him that was so mad at all of the hate he was getting that he wanted to continue to diss Duke just to get back at them.

I really enjoy most of his work, and that interview with Mason was very good. If anyone is a Bill Simmons fan, as I am, brace yourself before watching his Alex Len interview-- he gets in a couple of swipes at Duke there.

That's actually one of my issues with Simmons in the ESPN NBA countdown. I can appreciate Simmons' opinion and columns and his grantland/interview stuff. I love his books. But not only is he a huge homer, he will take unnecessary and mean-spirited swipes at players on national TV....I just think it calls for a different level of objectivity.

Newton_14
06-23-2013, 01:22 PM
That's actually one of my issues with Simmons in the ESPN NBA countdown. I can appreciate Simmons' opinion and columns and his grantland/interview stuff. I love his books. But not only is he a huge homer, he will take unnecessary and mean-spirited swipes at players on national TV....I just think it calls for a different level of objectivity.


Totally agree. Tried to give you trident points but have to spread the love some more. I would only change "objectivity" to "professionalism". As a writer, journalyst, analyst, TV, Radio, whatever, I should not know who your favorite team is nor who your least favorite team is. Sorry, but to me, when you choose one of those professions, you leave your fandom and bias at home. I also thought having Simmons on the NBA set with the other analysts during the NBA Finals was a dumb move. He was way out of his league in that setting. I know several here love the Grantland stuff and much of it is good. Some of it however, is either biased opinions or guys writing about a game they are totally clueless about.

Atlanta Duke
06-23-2013, 07:33 PM
Totally agree. Tried to give you trident points but have to spread the love some more. I would only change "objectivity" to "professionalism". As a writer, journalyst, analyst, TV, Radio, whatever, I should not know who your favorite team is nor who your least favorite team is. Sorry, but to me, when you choose one of those professions, you leave your fandom and bias at home. I also thought having Simmons on the NBA set with the other analysts during the NBA Finals was a dumb move. He was way out of his league in that setting. I know several here love the Grantland stuff and much of it is good. Some of it however, is either biased opinions or guys writing about a game they are totally clueless about.

Since Simmons has written a book about the NBA that hit #1 on The New York Times bestseller list and is pretty much regarded as the most popular ESPN personality online or on cable, with the clout to go with that, it makes sense for ESPN to give him a shot on the NBA show. As far as the performers not interjecting their personal biases, that ship sailed at The Worldwide Leader some time ago, with Simmons having risen to fame writing Sports Guy columns about his beloved Red Sox and Patriots. It is the Entertainment Sports Programing Network, not SPN, and ratings float the boat.

A Wall Street Journal review of an anthology of columns by the great sportswriter Red Smith includes this observation that sums up for me the strengths and weaknesses of Simmons, whom I often enjoy reading.

Today sportswriters often skip over what actually happened and go straight to opinion-making, in-jokes, cultural cross-reference. This has consequences. ESPN's wildly popular columnist Bill Simmons, for instance, can be quite good when getting into the details of how a basketball player from another era worked in the low post. When riffing on how a game functions as a shared cultural experience, though, or compiling annotated comparisons of basketball players to characters on bad television shows, he comes off as a junk-culture-obsessed monologuist, free-associating on whatever ephemeral ideas pass across his screen.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323734304578541102933318658.html?m od=WSJ_Books_LS_Books_8

Newton_14
06-23-2013, 09:21 PM
Since Simmons has written a book about the NBA that hit #1 on The New York Times bestseller list and is pretty much regarded as the most popular ESPN personality online or on cable, with the clout to go with that, it makes sense for ESPN to give him a shot on the NBA show. As far as the performers not interjecting their personal biases, that ship sailed at The Worldwide Leader some time ago, with Simmons having risen to fame writing Sports Guy columns about his beloved Red Sox and Patriots. It is the Entertainment Sports Programing Network, not SPN, and ratings float the boat.

A Wall Street Journal review of an anthology of columns by the great sportswriter Red Smith includes this observation that sums up for me the strengths and weaknesses of Simmons, whom I often enjoy reading.

Today sportswriters often skip over what actually happened and go straight to opinion-making, in-jokes, cultural cross-reference. This has consequences. ESPN's wildly popular columnist Bill Simmons, for instance, can be quite good when getting into the details of how a basketball player from another era worked in the low post. When riffing on how a game functions as a shared cultural experience, though, or compiling annotated comparisons of basketball players to characters on bad television shows, he comes off as a junk-culture-obsessed monologuist, free-associating on whatever ephemeral ideas pass across his screen.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323734304578541102933318658.html?m od=WSJ_Books_LS_Books_8


Agree the ship has sailed but don't have to like it or agree with it. We transitioned from reporting to entertaining for sure though.

Bluedog
06-23-2013, 09:31 PM
Bill Simmons hates Duke - plain and simple. Jalen also clearly is not a fan, but at least he says it's out of jealousy. Simmons after changing his twitter picture to "DUKE SUCKS:" "I already hated Duke but was diplomatic about it...no more. IT IS ON!" (After Grantland wasn't given credentials in Cameron to the Duke-UNC game...ESPN already had like 9 slots and Duke gives priority to media who actually show up to more games than just UNC. Obviously, media row in Cameron isn't that huge.)

It was already obvious, Bill. I'm not a fan of these over-opinionated sportswriters who simply try to cause controversy and stir the pot; give me a Michael Wilbon-type every time.

NovaScotian
06-23-2013, 10:12 PM
Bill Simmons hates Duke - plain and simple. Jalen also clearly is not a fan, but at least he says it's out of jealousy. Simmons after changing his twitter picture to "DUKE SUCKS:" "I already hated Duke but was diplomatic about it...no more. IT IS ON!" (After Grantland wasn't given credentials in Cameron to the Duke-UNC game...ESPN already had like 9 slots and Duke gives priority to media who actually show up to more games than just UNC. Obviously, media row in Cameron isn't that huge.)

It was already obvious, Bill. I'm not a fan of these over-opinionated sportswriters who simply try to cause controversy and stir the pot; give me a Michael Wilbon-type every time.

other than that, mrs. lincoln, how did you like the video?

Bluedog
06-23-2013, 10:29 PM
other than that, mrs. lincoln, how did you like the video?

Video was good; I enjoyed it, so I do appreciate the link. ;) So, I guess Simmons isn't all bad. Hopefully, Mason gets picked up by a team that can utilize his skill set. I expect big things from him!

moonpie23
06-24-2013, 07:03 AM
simmons is a very knowledgeable guy, but that voice is a bit whiney.....

Duvall
06-24-2013, 09:41 AM
I think the folks that dislike Rose do so in large part because, during the Fab Five documentary, Rose recalled his feelings as a 19 year old as thinking Duke's black players were a bunch of uncle Toms.

His work as an analyst on the NBA is actually pretty good. But many can't get over that comment (even though it was said from the perspective of a 19-year-old who was - as he later admitted - just really jealous).

Well, not quite. It would be more accurate to say that Rose explained how his feelings had evolved from resenting Duke for recruiting players that he felt at the time were Uncle Toms in his youth to feeling that it was okay for Duke to choose to recruit black players that he believed to be less representative of the authentic black experience. And while it's nice to have someone covering college basketball that isn't carrying real or feigned resentment of Duke, Rose's 2011 stance is still factually questionable and fairly problematic.

CDu
06-24-2013, 10:46 AM
Well, not quite. It would be more accurate to say that Rose explained how his feelings had evolved from resenting Duke for recruiting players that he felt at the time were Uncle Toms in his youth to feeling that it was okay for Duke to choose to recruit black players that he believed to be less representative of the authentic black experience. And while it's nice to have someone covering college basketball that isn't carrying real or feigned resentment of Duke, Rose's 2011 stance is still factually questionable and fairly problematic.

I'm not sure what about Rose's 2011 stance is factually questionable. Duke DOES tend to recruit players from two-parent households. That's not exclusively the case, but it is much more common at Duke than it is for the average D-1 school. So, in the sense that the inner-city black experience may be less likely to have a two-parent household, Rose is correct that Duke doesn't usually recruit the "typical" inner-city black kid.

It seems to me that the problematic bit was the disdain he held for Duke not recruiting inner-city kids as much as other schools and his referring to Duke players as Uncle Toms. He has since backed off of both of those stances.

Also, note that Rose doesn't really cover college basketball. He covers the NBA. And I suspect the number of times "Duke" comes up in his coverage of the NBA is next to none, with the exception of covering the NBA draft.

Bluedog
06-24-2013, 11:14 AM
It seems to me that the problematic bit was the disdain he held for Duke not recruiting inner-city kids as much as other schools and his referring to Duke players as Uncle Toms. He has since backed off of both of those stances.

Can you link/quote where he clearly backed off of those stances? The only one I've seen is where he explicitly was asked "Do you think Duke recruits 'Uncle Toms' now?" and he gave a wishy washy answer saying they would recruit his son, but not him and that the Uncle Tom statement was what he thought as a college kid, but he never said he changed his mind. But I'd definitely like to see the text if I've missed it. Thanks!

Edit: I'll say that I don't really dislike Jalen despite all this. He's mildly entertaining in my mind and I've certainly heard worse.

Back to Mason now! I like that he says he's going in the mindset as fighting for a starting role. I think he could surprise people if he gets the right fit.

CDu
06-24-2013, 11:44 AM
Can you link/quote where he clearly backed off of those stances? The only one I've seen is where he explicitly was asked "Do you think Duke recruits 'Uncle Toms' now?" and he gave a wishy washy answer saying they would recruit his son, but not him and that the Uncle Tom statement was what he thought as a college kid, but he never said he changed his mind. But I'd definitely like to see the text if I've missed it. Thanks!

Edit: I'll say that I don't really dislike Jalen despite all this. He's mildly entertaining in my mind and I've certainly heard worse.

Back to Mason now! I like that he says he's going in the mindset as fighting for a starting role. I think he could surprise people if he gets the right fit.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/ncaa-basketball/jalen-rose-i-hated-duke-i-felt-like-they-only-recruited-black-players-that-were-uncle-toms/

“For me, Duke was personal. I hated Duke. And I hated everything I felt Duke stood for. Schools like Duke didn’t recruit players like me. I felt like they only recruited black players that were Uncle Toms.”

“Well, certain schools recruit a typical kind of player whether the world admits it or not. And Duke is one of those schools,” he said. “They recruit black players from polished families, accomplished families. And that’s fine. That’s okay. But when you’re an inner-city kid playing in a public school league, you know that certain schools aren’t going to recruit you. That’s one. And I’m okay with it. That’s how I felt as an 18-year-old kid.”

http://deadspin.com/5782677/espn-jalen-rose-and-the-manufactured-uncle-tom-controversy

"As a 17-year old recruit, that's exactly how I felt. [...] Now, I understand what their program represents, because I'm a mature adult. I know it's a private school, that they do recruit players from well-to-do, affluent families. But also, I understand some of the reason why—so that they don't see some of the players selling goods for money. Also, they want to have kids who represent the program the right way. I get all of that. But that's the minority. I was speaking for the majority. And that's how I felt then."

He clearly states that, as he's grown, he's better understood why Duke recruits the way they recruit. He clearly still disagrees with that philosophy, but he understands and accepts it. As an 18-year-old, he didn't understand it and he had a lot of resentment.

I think he's moved from outright hatred to understanding but disagreement. And for me, that's fine. I have no problem with him preferring more recruitment of "questionable" inner-city kids. He's entitled to that opinion. For me, as long as he's moved away from the "Uncle Tom" stuff, I have no problem with him.

Duvall
06-24-2013, 12:12 PM
I'm not sure what about Rose's 2011 stance is factually questionable. Duke DOES tend to recruit players from two-parent households. That's not exclusively the case, but it is much more common at Duke than it is for the average D-1 school. So, in the sense that the inner-city black experience may be less likely to have a two-parent household, Rose is correct that Duke doesn't usually recruit the "typical" inner-city black kid.

It seems to me that the problematic bit was the disdain he held for Duke not recruiting inner-city kids as much as other schools and his referring to Duke players as Uncle Toms. He has since backed off of both of those stances.

Which is fine, except that Rose is still putting himself in the position of judging what kinds of background are more representative of blackness. Dispassionate and non-resentful judging, but judging nonetheless, and that's a problem.

And it's factually inaccurate because Rose didn't say that Duke "tended" to recruit players from "two-parent households," he suggested that Duke chose to recruit black players from well-off families, with the implication that those were the only kind of black players recruited by Duke. It's also inaccurate in suggesting that these decisions are made entirely by the school - as we know, recruiting does not work that way.

If nothing else, Rose's comments created a false dichotomy between backgrounds like Grant Hill and backgrounds like his own that ignores the middle class completely. That's a problem, and one that Rose never cared to address.


Also, note that Rose doesn't really cover college basketball. He covers the NBA. And I suspect the number of times "Duke" comes up in his coverage of the NBA is next to none, with the exception of covering the NBA draft.

That's true in the sense that ESPN on-air personalities rarely cover actual sports, but note that Rose has been an analyst for ESPN's basketball College GameDay coverage for the last year, a program on which Duke has been mentioned from time to time.

moonpie23
06-24-2013, 12:22 PM
i have yet to hear him say, "blah blah blah....that's how i felt as an 18 yr old inner city kid BUT I WAS WRONG. AND NOW I SEE THAT I WAS WRONG!

it's fine for him to see that as an 18 year old kid, it's fine for him to SAY that he FELT that way as an 18 yr old kid, but now he's gotta say that he was WRONG.....

that's kinda what i'm looking for.......till then, he's on the list...