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FerryFor50
06-19-2013, 10:15 AM
With the NBA Finals wrapping up, I find myself being unable to sit through an entire NBA game. In fact, I don't really watch much NBA until the playoffs. I follow it and know who is doing what, but hate watching the games. Below are some of the reasons I hate watching the NBA.... most of it has to do with officiating. What are some of yours?

1) Inconsistent officiating

Sometimes, a hand check is not a foul. Sometimes it is. Oftentimes, being mauled in the post isn't a foul, but it's maddening when it finally is called. Some refs wait to see if a foul affected a shot to call it. Others call it regardless. And no one calls the foul at the end of the close game... until one of them does.

2) The home court advantage

I don't know of any other sport where the home court/field is so valuable in terms of how a game is officiated. When I look at the box scores, I always look at who the home team was and how many FTs they shot. Usually, there is a strong correlation. I've looked to see if anyone has put stats together on this, but never have found anything.

3) The feeling that games are still fixed, even after Donaghy

The fact that the league still acts like there isn't an officiating issue when one was uncovered not that long ago is kind of like baseball saying they don't have a steroid problem.

4) Star treatment

I hate how players like Lebron or Kobe get every. single. call.... but the little guys play by a different set of rules. However, star treatment is found in just about every sports league, all the way down to the little leagues.

5) The two handed push off to get open

So many times, I see a shooter absolutely shove his defender into the screener rather than trying to run to get free. It NEVER gets called. Drives me insane.

6) The inconsistent calling of moving screens

Tim Duncan really has highlighted this for me in this series. Duncan is rarely ever set on his screens. He runs to the spot, throws his hip into a defender and then immediately rolls. Never gets called. Hardly any player gets called for moving screens in the NBA, including the popular, "walking" pick, where the screener will just push the defender as he walks to free up his guy. Or maybe I misinterpret what a moving screen is....

7) The flopping

Battier gets targeted a lot for this, but it is rampant.

8) The "swim through" (or whatever it's called) that Kobe/Durant use

You know... guy plays close, good defense. Defender brings arms up into defender and gets the call. They've cracked down on it, but not enough for my tastes...

9) The overproduction

I dunno... give me the marching bands and non-plastic surgery cheerleaders of college basketball over the dance club and Barbies of the NBA. And the mascots don't have to trampoline through flaming hoops to dunk. I prefer the nerdy student trying to hit a half court shot to win a scholarship;.

Billy Dat
06-19-2013, 10:23 AM
Ferry - I give you props for a solid rant. I don't agree with most of it but I appreciate your passion!!!! I don't think you are wrong, that stuff just doesn't bother me, I accept it as part of the sport.

What bothers me the most are the constant commercials, but I have the same issue with college hoops, especially in the NCAAs. That is why I usually DVR every game, stay away from social media and my phone, and start watching after an hour has elapsed. If you are focused and efficient, you can knock off an NBA game in a little over an hour. Of course, you leave yourself open to disaster. I didn't account for the potential of overtime last night but the DVR recorded right up to 1 minute after Bosh's block on Green. Phew.

CDu
06-19-2013, 10:27 AM
My biggest beef is the lack of desire displayed in many games. It is why I only watch the playoffs and particularly big regular season matchups. Otherwise, the game is just not worth watching. There are so many regular season games that the season becomes watered down. Stars pick and choose when they want to play hard.

In the playoffs, it is generally a different story (especially once you reach the conference finals). Every game matters, and teams play harder.

Yes, the officiating is bad. But it's bad at every level of basketball. I'd argue it is worse in college than in the NBA. The same is true for home court advantage. "Star" treatment exists in college, too, but the "star" is the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.

FerryFor50
06-19-2013, 10:30 AM
My biggest beef is the lack of desire displayed in many games. It is why I only watch the playoffs and particularly big regular season matchups. Otherwise, the game is just not worth watching. There are so many regular season games that the season becomes watered down. Stars pick and choose when they want to play hard.

In the playoffs, it is generally a different story (especially once you reach the conference finals). Every game matters, and teams play harder.

Yes, the officiating is bad. But it's bad at every level of basketball. I'd argue it is worse in college than in the NBA. The same is true for home court advantage. "Star" treatment exists in college, too, but the "star" is the name on the front of the jersey, not the back.

Fair points. :)

Also agree about the passion played during the regular season.... not to mention "strategic benching of stars" by coaches to prove points to the league.

Billy Dat
06-19-2013, 10:35 AM
My biggest beef is the lack of desire displayed in many games. It is why I only watch the playoffs and particularly big regular season matchups. Otherwise, the game is just not worth watching. There are so many regular season games that the season becomes watered down. Stars pick and choose when they want to play hard.

This is very true. As a basketball junkie, I think there are two paths. If you have a favorite team, you just watch them game in and game out and then see what featured games ESPN or TNT have to offer. That's what I do. If I was going to step up my game, I'd get the league pass which would mitigate the ho-hum atmosphere you describe by allowing you to cherry pick the best match-up that night. Overall, I tend to geek out from November-Feburary and then start to burn out. I usually then devote my full attention to March Madness and return to the NBA afterwards for the close of the regular season and the playoffs. But, let's be clear, the Blue Devils are my first priority, always. I don't spend hours everyday on the KBR (Knicks Basketball Report - if such a thing exists).

Wander
06-19-2013, 10:43 AM
I really just wish they would stop playing that stupid music/sound effect thing while the game is live.

miramar
06-19-2013, 10:44 AM
Fair points. :)

Also agree about the passion played during the regular season.... not to mention "strategic benching of stars" by coaches to prove points to the league.

I just read in Nate Silver's blog that Tim Duncan played the equivalent of 25 minutes a game during the regular season, which doesn't make for good regular season basketball.

Nevertheless, Popovich almost won the championship last night and still has another chance tomorrow so I can't disagree with his reasoning.

moonpie23
06-19-2013, 10:45 AM
y'all should prolly not watch....

CDu
06-19-2013, 10:46 AM
y'all should prolly not watch....

As I said, I don't. At least not until the playoffs.

FerryFor50
06-19-2013, 10:47 AM
As I said, I don't. At least not until the playoffs.

Yep. And I barely watch the playoffs...

matt1
06-19-2013, 10:54 AM
Does anyone hate how this weird NBA fashion (crazy basketball shoes, socks) has infiltrated the lives of people in their early teens? I mean my brother (13 years old) has probably 15 different pairs of high-top basketball shoes and probably 25-30 pairs of these ridiculous mid-calf high socks of strange colors. He probably spends 3-4 minutes putting on his shoes and socks each time (he even has a designated left and right sock). Meanwhile, I probably spend 30 seconds putting on mine (general sneakers and plain white socks)!

rthomas
06-19-2013, 11:29 AM
I'm convinced that the NBA is run by the same people who run the World Wrestling Entertainment. As long as you take it like that, the issues and inconsistencies mentioned don't matter. For example, it was pretty obvious last night the NBA wanted a game 7, so the refs would not call a foul on Miami on the last several San Antonio possessions, even with the blatant obvious fouls. You take it for what it is. Entertainment. And we do get to watch a game 7.

moonpie23
06-19-2013, 11:33 AM
nor ginobli taking 5 steps to the basket..........

i'm sure the ncaa "planned" for UK to win last year......or for duke to meet and beat butler.....


black helicopters much?

sagegrouse
06-19-2013, 11:51 AM
That is why I usually DVR every game, stay away from social media and my phone, and start watching after an hour has elapsed. If you are focused and efficient, you can knock off an NBA game in a little over an hour. Of course, you leave yourself open to disaster. I didn't account for the potential of overtime last night but the DVR recorded right up to 1 minute after Bosh's block on Green. Phew.

I almost paid the price last night. I DVRed the game (it was dinnertime out West) and added the 30 min. Extension. Then I proceeded to watch. With two minutes left in OT the DVR timed out. I went upstairs cursing and finally went to ESPN.com. Aha! There was still 55 seconds left in the game, so I got to watch the end. I missed a minute. It turns out, if I had waited through the commercial that was on when the DVR cut off, I may not have missed a thing. I guess I need improved protocols.

At least it wasn't as bad as my first VCR Duke game. I returned from a meeting about 10:15 and began watching a Duke-Georgia Tech thriller (this was 25 years ago). The tape ran out with 1 minute left in the game. This was pre-cable for me, and I didn't find out the score until the next AM. It turns out, you couldn't use the Standard speed and had to use a condensed format to record an entire basketball game.

sagegrouse

matt1
06-19-2013, 11:58 AM
I'm convinced that the NBA is run by the same people who run the World Wrestling Entertainment. As long as you take it like that, the issues and inconsistencies mentioned don't matter. For example, it was pretty obvious last night the NBA wanted a game 7, so the refs would not call a foul on Miami on the last several San Antonio possessions, even with the blatant obvious fouls. You take it for what it is. Entertainment. And we do get to watch a game 7.

On the 101-100 possession, it was a foul, but only after Ginobli traveled. However, I will concede the final "block" by Bosh.

FerryFor50
06-19-2013, 12:04 PM
On the 101-100 possession, it was a foul, but only after Ginobli traveled. However, I will concede the final "block" by Bosh.

The "block" was borderline. Wasn't egregious enough to call, much less at that point in the game.

I think the refs missed some pretty obvious contact when Duncan got hit a few times late in the 4th... guess that's how they were calling it.

Also wasn't a fan of how aggressively Crawford ripped the ball out of the inbounder's hands to review the Ray Allen 3. I think it was enough to blow the whistle and review. If the Spurs inbounded anyway, just undo the play.

FerryFor50
06-19-2013, 12:06 PM
I just read in Nate Silver's blog that Tim Duncan played the equivalent of 25 minutes a game during the regular season, which doesn't make for good regular season basketball.

Nevertheless, Popovich almost won the championship last night and still has another chance tomorrow so I can't disagree with his reasoning.

Yea, but I was referring more to when he sat his big 3 against Miami for "injuries" to protest the aggressive scheduling by the NBA.

rsvman
06-19-2013, 12:18 PM
I hate the freaking organ music! Dum-dum-dum, dum-dum-dum, dum-dum-dum (increasingly higher starting note each time). I keep expecting the "duh-da-da-dum, da-DUM!" "Charge" crap they always do at baseball games.

Why do we need the organ? It's almost as if they're admitting that the actual game is not entertaining enough to hold anybody's interest so they have to add something to make it worth your while. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

CDu
06-19-2013, 12:57 PM
The "block" was borderline. Wasn't egregious enough to call, much less at that point in the game.

I disagree. It was a foul. It was a clean block up high, but Bosh jumped right through Green's body. Not the worst foul ever by any means, but definitely a foul. And I've never agreed with the "time of the game" argument.


I think the refs missed some pretty obvious contact when Duncan got hit a few times late in the 4th... guess that's how they were calling it.

Yeah, I don't know that complaining about any particular call seems entirely appropriate. It was a poorly officiated game all the way around. Both teams had lots of plays they could look to as bad calls.

Ichabod Drain
06-19-2013, 12:59 PM
8) The "swim through" (or whatever it's called) that Kobe/Durant use

You know... guy plays close, good defense. Defender brings arms up into defender and gets the call. They've cracked down on it, but not enough for my tastes...


Ryan Kelly got pretty good at this last year.

Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15
06-19-2013, 01:50 PM
My biggest beef is the lack of desire displayed in many games. It is why I only watch the playoffs and particularly big regular season matchups. Otherwise, the game is just not worth watching. There are so many regular season games that the season becomes watered down. Stars pick and choose when they want to play hard.

This. A thousand times this. Turn on an NBA game in mid January between say, the Mavs and the Suns. Players are jogging down the court, play with energy in short bursts if the game is in jeopardy near the end. The crowd is halfway paying attention at best. Then, turn on a ACC conference game in mid-January and compare the emotion, energy, crowd, and enthusiasm. It's two different worlds.

Also, personally, I get sick and tired of seeing the players whine after non-calls. Almost all of them do it, and it frequently infringes on the game by either making them look like total jerks, or letting the other team play 5 on 4 on the other end of the court. It's so bush-league and so common, it makes it almost impossible for me to watch.

MCFinARL
06-19-2013, 02:00 PM
Does anyone hate how this weird NBA fashion (crazy basketball shoes, socks) has infiltrated the lives of people in their early teens? I mean my brother (13 years old) has probably 15 different pairs of high-top basketball shoes and probably 25-30 pairs of these ridiculous mid-calf high socks of strange colors. He probably spends 3-4 minutes putting on his shoes and socks each time (he even has a designated left and right sock). Meanwhile, I probably spend 30 seconds putting on mine (general sneakers and plain white socks)!

It's not easy being stylish. :D

Des Esseintes
06-19-2013, 02:02 PM
All I know is, if it's February and my choices are, say, Timberwolves-Bucks or Indiana-Penn St., it's not even a question. The NBA game every time. Combined scores over 110, please. Not picking up your dribble 35 feet from the basket, please. Like everyone else here, my primary interest is watching Duke. But the rest of college basketball, aside from a smattering of marquee matchups? I'd happily prefer a meaningless pro game between two also-rans.

loran16
06-19-2013, 02:09 PM
How about the EXTRA THREE TIMEOUTS A SIDE FOR OVERTIME?!

Omg, talk about slowing a game to a crawl.

CDu
06-19-2013, 02:39 PM
All I know is, if it's February and my choices are, say, Timberwolves-Bucks or Indiana-Penn St., it's not even a question. The NBA game every time. Combined scores over 110, please. Not picking up your dribble 35 feet from the basket, please. Like everyone else here, my primary interest is watching Duke. But the rest of college basketball, aside from a smattering of marquee matchups? I'd happily prefer a meaningless pro game between two also-rans.

If offered just those two alternatives, I'd choose option C: turn off the TV. Or switch the channel to Duck Dynasty.

While there is no argument that the NBA is higher-quality basketball than college basketball (and it isn't even close), a meaningless regular season game between to mediocre NBA teams just isn't worth watching in my opinion. Neither is an awful Big-10 game. It's like choosing between a root canal and a spinal tap.

PSurprise
06-19-2013, 02:47 PM
How about the EXTRA THREE TIMEOUTS A SIDE FOR OVERTIME?!

Omg, talk about slowing a game to a crawl.

Yeah, I saw this last night and was like, OMG, this game is going to end at 3a.m. And what about the 43 timeouts apiece allowed during regulation?

miramar
06-19-2013, 02:48 PM
Yea, but I was referring more to when he sat his big 3 against Miami for "injuries" to protest the aggressive scheduling by the NBA.

He also sent Danny Green home early, so four guys missed the game.

Still, Miami needed a three from Ray Allen in the final minute to win, so I guess past is prologue.

Des Esseintes
06-19-2013, 02:53 PM
If offered just those two alternatives, I'd choose option C: turn off the TV. Or switch the channel to Duck Dynasty.

While there is no argument that the NBA is higher-quality basketball than college basketball (and it isn't even close), a meaningless regular season game between to mediocre NBA teams just isn't worth watching in my opinion. Neither is an awful Big-10 game. It's like choosing between a root canal and a spinal tap.

Yeah, that's where we differ. Basketball is my favorite sport, and the NBA is by a pretty fair margin the best basketball product available. Nor do I think watching Ricky Rubio, Kevin Love, late-career Dunleavy, Rick Carlisle offensive sets, Larry Sanders, and Andrei Kirilenko--just to speak about the one intentionally mediocre option I tossed out there--is inferior to effing Duck Dynasty.

Everyone's mileage varies, of course.

AncientPsychicT
06-19-2013, 03:46 PM
All I know is, if it's February and my choices are, say, Timberwolves-Bucks or Indiana-Penn St., it's not even a question.

Exactly. It's Oilers-Stars. Or Blues-Devils.

weezie
06-19-2013, 03:55 PM
I fell asleep and only woke up for the overtime. Why did LeBron take his headband off?
He sure looked a lot more like a basketball star without it.

Wander
06-19-2013, 03:57 PM
How about the EXTRA THREE TIMEOUTS A SIDE FOR OVERTIME?!


Yup. And somewhat related, I find getting to automatically advance the ball to halfcourt after a timeout to be pretty dumb.

rsvman
06-19-2013, 04:20 PM
Yup. And somewhat related, I find getting to automatically advance the ball to halfcourt after a timeout to be pretty dumb.

Seconded.

How did it get there? It must be M-A-G-I-C!!:rolleyes:

rasputin
06-19-2013, 04:48 PM
This. A thousand times this. Turn on an NBA game in mid January between say, the Mavs and the Suns. Players are jogging down the court, play with energy in short bursts if the game is in jeopardy near the end. The crowd is halfway paying attention at best. Then, turn on a ACC conference game in mid-January and compare the emotion, energy, crowd, and enthusiasm. It's two different worlds.



Joey: I think you're the greatest, but my dad says you don't work hard enough on defense.
[Kareem gets angry]
Joey: And he says that lots of times, you don't even run down court. And that you don't really try... except during the playoffs.
Roger Murdock: [breaking character] The hell I don't! LISTEN, KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.

Li_Duke
06-19-2013, 05:10 PM
I find the effort in regular season NBA games is a little easier to bear if you think of the whole season as a marathon. For any particular quarter mile of the marathon, the runners will be holding something back for future quarter miles. It makes it easier to appreciate the players who pace themselves with the end goal of winning it all. So, for example, you won't see Chris Paul driving it hard to the rack as much as he could.

Granted, you still have certain players "pacing" themselves with no end goal in mind.

Mabdul Doobakus
06-19-2013, 05:38 PM
We seem to be experiencing a referee crisis in every sport these days, which almost surely has more to do with the way we now consume sports, rather than any actual decline in the quality of the refs. So, complaining about the NBA refs is fine...they're inconsistent, for sure...but you'd have to level that criticism against sports in general. On it's own, it's not a great reason to hate the NBA.

I do agree that the NBA regular season is too long, kind of pointless, and that, yes, there are plenty of games where neither team is giving maximum effort. I mean, the Spurs make a regular habit of benching their starters just to give them some rest. You do not get that in college, and so the college regular season is much more compelling. There's more at stake, given the intense rivalries, and the players either hustle or get benched.

At the same time, the quality of basketball is much, much higher in the NBA. College basketball is a very helter skelter game with a lot of poor passing, poor decision making. Compared to the NBA, it just looks sloppy, much like if you were compare women's college basketball to men's college basketball. This is true even with quasi-professional teams like Kentucky, though obviously less so. I love the passion of college basketball, I love the excitement of March Madness, but for pure basketball there is no better product than the NBA playoffs.

NSDukeFan
06-19-2013, 05:55 PM
I just read in Nate Silver's blog that Tim Duncan played the equivalent of 25 minutes a game during the regular season, which doesn't make for good regular season basketball.

Nevertheless, Popovich almost won the championship last night and still has another chance tomorrow so I can't disagree with his reasoning.

It's always easier to second guess from the couch, rather than first guess from the bench, but I thought Pop made a mistake not having his best defensive player in for defensive possessions at the end, even if the other team was going small.

sagegrouse
06-19-2013, 07:05 PM
I prefer college basketball, and I rarely watch the NBA (except when a favorite Dukie plays) until the playoffs.

But.... the NBA is on a positive trend to a better game because of the "freedom of movement" rules. The college game is trending down for the lack of "freedom of movement" rules. I hope the NCAA and the coaches address this problem quickly. At least this is a problem that can be addressed by the schools. The other problem -- the one-and-done players on the rosters -- is out of its hands.

sagegrouse

CoachJ10
06-19-2013, 08:07 PM
I'm convinced that the NBA is run by the same people who run the World Wrestling Entertainment. As long as you take it like that, the issues and inconsistencies mentioned don't matter. For example, it was pretty obvious last night the NBA wanted a game 7, so the refs would not call a foul on Miami on the last several San Antonio possessions, even with the blatant obvious fouls. You take it for what it is. Entertainment. And we do get to watch a game 7.

I always find it interesting when people see what they want to see when it comes to reffing. To me, the Spurs have definitely benefited this series from very physical play on Lebron (and Bosh, Wade, et al) w/o him in particular getting any calls (in most cases fairly obvious calls, not the Superstar calls)....while at the same time getting a lot of cheap whistles to benefit Timmy, Tony, Leonard etc. Last night was no exception to this.

Consistency is the key to at least attempting to remedy this.

elvis14
06-19-2013, 08:58 PM
I always find it interesting when people see what they want to see when it comes to reffing. To me, the Spurs have definitely benefited this series from very physical play on Lebron (and Bosh, Wade, et al) w/o him in particular getting any calls (in most cases fairly obvious calls, not the Superstar calls)....while at the same time getting a lot of cheap whistles to benefit Timmy, Tony, Leonard etc. Last night was no exception to this.

Consistency is the key to at least attempting to remedy this.

After reading that paragraph, I can agree with your first sentence and your last sentence. Everything in between...well...see your first sentence.

Newton_14
06-19-2013, 09:16 PM
I wanted to weigh in on this one. My beefs:

- 24 second shot clock. Will always be item 1 for me. Too short and promotes too much individual play and makes running team sets difficult.
- The terrible shot selection across the board. This is more prevalent with the bad teams which covers about 85% of the teams in the league. I tried twice to watch Indiana vs Atlanta in the playoffs and the basketball was so putrid I turned it both times.
- The idea that only the 2-3 stars should score. Basketball is a team game of 5 players. At any level the best teams have 5 players on the floor that are a threat to score consistently. The Spurs are one rare example of a NBA team that both lives by and executes on that theory. Its fun watching a Danny Green or Neal being real contributors on offense vs a Parker, Ginobli, and Duncan take 90% of the shots
- Lack of fundamentals where great athletes who can't shoot or dribble or pass well push out well rounded players just because they can jump higher and run faster.

I can't watch the NBA until it gets to the conference finals and Finals. This years finals have actually been fun to watch for me. Both teams are good and the effort and level of play is high.

I disagree that the NBA is superior to college in terms of quality of play. The FInal FOur this year was great basketball. There are two reasons why the College game is not as good as it used to be. Early entry has killed the game because all the good teams are relying on freshman and sophomores. That's reason one. Reason two is the game has become far too physical especially with freedom of movement. Plus refs call ticky tack touch fouls on the perimeter then let the big guys kill each other in the paint and call nothing. That and the phantom foul on put back plays. A guy gets a putback score off a pass or rebound and some poor defender near him who either looked at him or reached in but drew air gets nailed with a foul call. I despise that call and it happens a lot.

Wander
06-19-2013, 09:35 PM
- The idea that only the 2-3 stars should score. Basketball is a team game of 5 players. At any level the best teams have 5 players on the floor that are a threat to score consistently. The Spurs are one rare example of a NBA team that both lives by and executes on that theory. Its fun watching a Danny Green or Neal being real contributors on offense vs a Parker, Ginobli, and Duncan take 90% of the shots

Agreed on the shot clock stuff, but I don't think the above is true, and the obvious counterexample is our own most recent national championship team, which if I remember correctly was more reliant on our top 3 players for scoring than any of the other 300+ Division teams that season. If there's one thing I've become convinced of the longer I watch the sport, it's that there's no "magic formula" whatsoever for telling us what is the right way to win a championship; plenty of different styles can be successful, including those that only use 3 main scorers instead of 5.

Newton_14
06-19-2013, 09:45 PM
Agreed on the shot clock stuff, but I don't think the above is true, and the obvious counterexample is our own most recent national championship team, which if I remember correctly was more reliant on our top 3 players for scoring than any of the other 300+ Division teams that season. If there's one thing I've become convinced of the longer I watch the sport, it's that there's no "magic formula" whatsoever for telling us what is the right way to win a championship; plenty of different styles can be successful, including those that only use 3 main scorers instead of 5.


Great counterpoint on the 2010 team. We certainly relied on the big 3 for scoring that year. My point was more related to the NBA but your counter is still valid. In the NBA I just hate watching sets where 3 guys go stand on the far sidelines while two stars play pick and roll on the other side. Just not fun to watch to me.

Billy Dat
06-19-2013, 10:00 PM
I fell asleep and only woke up for the overtime. Why did LeBron take his headband off?
He sure looked a lot more like a basketball star without it.

He didn't, Timmy accidentally flipped it off when LBJ went up for a dunk.

CoachJ10
06-19-2013, 11:14 PM
After reading that paragraph, I can agree with your first sentence and your last sentence. Everything in between...well...see your first sentence.

I am no exception to my own thesis.

elvis14
06-19-2013, 11:26 PM
I am no exception to my own thesis.

LOL, me neither. In the finals thread I just mentioned that the officiating was bad and that I didn't think either fan base was going to be happy because I knew the bias was there. It's even worse when Duke is playing!

darthur
06-20-2013, 12:12 AM
Yeah, that's where we differ. Basketball is my favorite sport, and the NBA is by a pretty fair margin the best basketball product available. Nor do I think watching Ricky Rubio, Kevin Love, late-career Dunleavy, Rick Carlisle offensive sets, Larry Sanders, and Andrei Kirilenko--just to speak about the one intentionally mediocre option I tossed out there--is inferior to effing Duck Dynasty.

Everyone's mileage varies, of course.

+1 to this. I hear all the complaints here. I disagree with most of them. You ever hear Coach K complain about the effort of the NBA stars he coached?

College certainly has the ra-ra enthusiasm down, but if there's no Duke, I want to see the best basketball in the world, and to me, that's the NBA by a mile. And for all the complaining about lack of fundamentals, just about everyone in the NBA is an excellent shooter and just about everyone is an excellent dribbler.

How often do you see a college center spot up on the 3 point line for a set play? I vividly remember game-deciding 3-pointers from both Duncan and Bosh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPyKZ8p2kOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trdsKp94Io0

Where does a second-stringer power forward like Udonis Haslem get his points? Maybe 50% mid-range jumpers. How many second string college players can make a pass like Boris Diaw, or make a block like Chris Andersen?

But why rationalize it? If you like the style of play of college, that's great. No need to justify it by tearing down the NBA. I'm glad we have both :).

Lennies
06-20-2013, 01:35 AM
What bugs me is that stupid play that Miami runs where they roll the ball down the court and don't pick it up for 10 seconds. It's ridiculous and the rules should be fixed.

Billy Dat
06-20-2013, 08:12 AM
What bugs me is that stupid play that Miami runs where they roll the ball down the court and don't pick it up for 10 seconds. It's ridiculous and the rules should be fixed.

The most annoying aspect of this annoying move is that they often do it with 7 minutes left in the quarter or some-such scenario where time isn't even of the essence. It's become a bad habit. No one does it more than Chalmers but Wade is close.

FerryFor50
06-20-2013, 08:24 AM
The most annoying aspect of this annoying move is that they often do it with 7 minutes left in the quarter or some-such scenario where time isn't even of the essence. It's become a bad habit. No one does it more than Chalmers but Wade is close.

I see a lot of teams do it, probably to preserve the 24 second shot clock to have more time to get into an offensive set.

Mabdul Doobakus
06-20-2013, 09:32 AM
I see a lot of teams do it, probably to preserve the 24 second shot clock to have more time to get into an offensive set.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is why they do it...it gives them more time to get a good shot on the other end.

Unless you want to get rid of things like the Laettner vs Kentucky shot, I suppose the only way to change this rule is to start the clock once the ball hits the floor. Or you could just leave it.

loran16
06-20-2013, 09:50 AM
Yup. And somewhat related, I find getting to automatically advance the ball to halfcourt after a timeout to be pretty dumb.

So much. I'm sure Naismith had that rule in mind - "Well i'll let players stop time and magically move the ball up the court to increase excitement"

johnb
06-20-2013, 10:22 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is why they do it...it gives them more time to get a good shot on the other end.

Unless you want to get rid of things like the Laettner vs Kentucky shot, I suppose the only way to change this rule is to start the clock once the ball hits the floor. Or you could just leave it.

or the other team could defend it.

theAlaskanBear
06-20-2013, 10:24 AM
or the other team could defend it.

Yes this -- you don't even have to press -- just a token man defense (get within about 4-5 feet of the person walking it up the court) to make him pick it up and then back off again. There is no rule against defending in the back court in the NBA. Make him up the ball.

Indoor66
06-20-2013, 10:35 AM
Yes this -- you don't even have to press -- just a token man defense (get within about 4-5 feet of the person walking it up the court) to make him pick it up and then back off again. There is no rule against defending in the back court in the NBA. Make him up the ball.

Bingo. A simple answer to respond to a valid tactic to enlarge the 24 second offensive requirement. Just play defense.

darthur
06-20-2013, 12:50 PM
Bingo. A simple answer to respond to a valid tactic to enlarge the 24 second offensive requirement. Just play defense.

In theory yes. In practice, I think people wouldn't bother to defend this mid-game in college either. Even token full court pressure means you are not in your half court set, which is a bigger problem than letting the opponents start 1 second closer to the hoop. All things being equal, I'm sure the Heat are happy to take that extra second, but outside of end-of-game situations, it's just not worth contesting. It's not like NBA teams routinely have shot clock violations.

CDu
06-20-2013, 01:58 PM
+1 to this. I hear all the complaints here. I disagree with most of them. You ever hear Coach K complain about the effort of the NBA stars he coached?

Coach K was literally coaching the best of the best of the best. And he was doing so in an environment where every game mattered. Let's see him coach a mediocre/bad NBA team in January/February and see if the effort is there.


College certainly has the ra-ra enthusiasm down, but if there's no Duke, I want to see the best basketball in the world, and to me, that's the NBA by a mile. And for all the complaining about lack of fundamentals, just about everyone in the NBA is an excellent shooter and just about everyone is an excellent dribbler.

How often do you see a college center spot up on the 3 point line for a set play? I vividly remember game-deciding 3-pointers from both Duncan and Bosh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPyKZ8p2kOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trdsKp94Io0

Where does a second-stringer power forward like Udonis Haslem get his points? Maybe 50% mid-range jumpers. How many second string college players can make a pass like Boris Diaw, or make a block like Chris Andersen?

But why rationalize it? If you like the style of play of college, that's great. No need to justify it by tearing down the NBA. I'm glad we have both :).

I love NBA Playoff basketball. It's great. But the majority of regular season basketball just doesn't appeal to me. Neither does most college basketball.

I completely agree that the quality of the players and play in the NBA is worlds better than college basketball. And it isn't even remotely close. That doesn't always make it compelling to me to watch. It does so in the playoffs. It doesn't in the regular season. Just like a regular season Big-10 game between Illinois and Purdue doesn't appeal to me at all, either.

Des Esseintes
06-20-2013, 02:31 PM
+1 to this. I hear all the complaints here. I disagree with most of them. You ever hear Coach K complain about the effort of the NBA stars he coached?

College certainly has the ra-ra enthusiasm down, but if there's no Duke, I want to see the best basketball in the world, and to me, that's the NBA by a mile. And for all the complaining about lack of fundamentals, just about everyone in the NBA is an excellent shooter and just about everyone is an excellent dribbler.

How often do you see a college center spot up on the 3 point line for a set play? I vividly remember game-deciding 3-pointers from both Duncan and Bosh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPyKZ8p2kOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trdsKp94Io0

Where does a second-stringer power forward like Udonis Haslem get his points? Maybe 50% mid-range jumpers. How many second string college players can make a pass like Boris Diaw, or make a block like Chris Andersen?

But why rationalize it? If you like the style of play of college, that's great. No need to justify it by tearing down the NBA. I'm glad we have both :).

Yeah to all of those points. Also, this thread has happily avoided a preponderance of complaints about effort in the NBA, but to the extent it has I want to offer some pushback. First, what team sport *doesn't* suffer this problem? Even the NFL, a league in which every game counts in a way that the NBA regular season never could (nor, really, should) match, features constant problems with effort and motivation. Teams that make the playoffs almost as a rule start losing when only the lesser prize of home-field advantage. Likewise, bad teams often feature December surges, a classic case of next year's employment opportunities resolving into suddenly sharper focus. There's a reason, after all, why the Parcells maxim that "the more desperate team usually wins" rings true. Dudes are just not always giving max effort out there. But: there are only 16 games, you can't see the players' faces, and there are 22 men on the field, so laziness is often lost in the scrum of unidentified bodies. And Jesus, in baseball the games are so boring and never-ending that for decades players have literally taken drugs to keep themselves alert. Pro seasons of all stripes are long and taxing. It's unrealistic to demand night-in night-out razor sharpness from the athletes. And it's unfair to single out the NBA when a close examination would reveal similar problems in every sport.

Furthermore--and I recognize this opening a huge can of worms to broach--but it seems as though you hear complaints about effort in the four major sports proportionally as follows:
NBA > NFL > MLB > NHL
Which just coincidentally happens to mirror the extent to which each league is black-identified. I'm hardly suggesting anyone who has problems with the effort levels in the NBA regular season is racist, either consciously or otherwise, but it's hard not to feel some unpleasant historical legacies are playing a role in framing the conversation.

CDu
06-20-2013, 03:10 PM
Yeah to all of those points. Also, this thread has happily avoided a preponderance of complaints about effort in the NBA, but to the extent it has I want to offer some pushback. First, what team sport *doesn't* suffer this problem? Even the NFL, a league in which every game counts in a way that the NBA regular season never could (nor, really, should) match, features constant problems with effort and motivation.

The NFL is pretty much the only professional sport in which regular season games matter. They don't feature "constant problems with effort and motivation." Mainly because if you don't put in effort, you don't play. Or if you don't put in effort while playing, you risk getting seriously hurt.

The NFL Pro Bowl is an example of a lack of effort. And it is completely unwatchable. That is simply not true of the regular season.

You are correct that other pro team sports (like baseball) have pretty boring regular season games. And I don't watch those either.


Furthermore--and I recognize this opening a huge can of worms to broach--but it seems as though you hear complaints about effort in the four major sports proportionally as follows:
NBA > NFL > MLB > NHL
Which just coincidentally happens to mirror the extent to which each league is black-identified. I'm hardly suggesting anyone who has problems with the effort levels in the NBA regular season is racist, either consciously or otherwise, but it's hard not to feel some unpleasant historical legacies are playing a role in framing the conversation.

That is actually not AT ALL how I'd characterize effort in those four major sports. I'd say (from least regular-season effort to most): NBA = MLB >>> NHL = NFL.

Li_Duke
06-20-2013, 03:41 PM
What bugs me is that stupid play that Miami runs where they roll the ball down the court and don't pick it up for 10 seconds. It's ridiculous and the rules should be fixed.

The first time I saw this done was in back in 1998 where Wojo used this tactic to milk the clock in a comeback against UNC (or was it UCLA)? At the time, I thought of it as a clever application of the rules as they are.

Occasionally you'll see another team make the other team pay for this tactic by stealing the ball.

I like the 24 second shot clock for the NBA. NBA players are so talented there that if teams are forced to play good D for 35 seconds, well coached teams will score just about every time down the floor. The 24 second shot clock puts more emphasis on playing good D.

rthomas
06-20-2013, 04:23 PM
What bugs me is that stupid play that Miami runs where they roll the ball down the court and don't pick it up for 10 seconds. It's ridiculous and the rules should be fixed.

Just a rules question: If the man out of bounds rolls the ball in like Miami does, and the ball happens to hit the floor on or before the end line, is it a turnover?

allenmurray
06-20-2013, 04:45 PM
black helicopters much?

Probably the best opposite for "paranoid" is "naive". They are opposite sides of the same spectrum.

The NBA isn't about the unsullied glories of athletic competition to bring out the best in humanity. It is a business. An entertainment business. A business which has as its primary motive to make money. Lots of money. So, folks who think the series is "fixed" or that referees want to control the outcome may be paranoid.

But . . . the NBA makes a lot more money is a 7 game series than a 4 game series. The NBA makes a lot more money when its stars don't foul out and are given incredible freedom to "operate". The NBA makes a lot more money when high profile big-market teams fare well.

To not recognize the reality of that is incredibly naive.

Cameron
06-20-2013, 04:46 PM
9) The overproduction

E. S. P. N.

When the NBA left NBC, the show was over. While I still have enjoyed the NBA from time to time since its crossover to ESPN/ABC -- as a diehard Pacer/Reggie Miller fan I religiously watched up until the mid-2000s -- it was at its peak while on NBC and, production-wise, has largely devolved into an annoying sideshow with awful announcing crews and even worse audio/visual appeal -- cancelled out crowd noise to boost broadcaster voices, which completely takes away from the excitement of the game; lack of meaningful pre-game and half-time storylines that used to dominate the NBC telecasts; hideously selected theme music (whoever decided that eliminating John Tesh's Roundball Rock anthem was a good business idea was a -----------. I mean, Cee Lo Green music videos? Really?); and awful announcing crews and even worse audio/visual appeal. With the recent addition of Bill Simmons to the Finals' pre-game show, that needed to be said twice.

While on NBC, with grand voices like Bob Costas setting the stage with emotional mini-stories behind the games each night, the NBA was elevated almost to classical, operatic theatre. The electricity was palpable. You wanted to go outside and pick up a ball and play. Every game, whether played in December or in June, felt like an event that the whole world stopped to watch. Yet, it was beautifully understated at the same time, which added to the effect.

Today, the NBA Finals feels no different than an early-season college basketball tournament being played in Midnight in Alaska, only with random P. Diddy music videos added here and there to keep you from falling into a coma. ESPN deserves a lot of credit for destroying the credibility of a brand so quickly. I'm serious. Mad props.

jipops
06-20-2013, 04:51 PM
With the NBA Finals wrapping up, I find myself being unable to sit through an entire NBA game. In fact, I don't really watch much NBA until the playoffs. I follow it and know who is doing what, but hate watching the games. Below are some of the reasons I hate watching the NBA.... most of it has to do with officiating. What are some of yours?

1) Inconsistent officiating


2) The home court advantage


3) The feeling that games are still fixed, even after Donaghy

4) Star treatment

5) The two handed push off to get open

6) The inconsistent calling of moving screens

7) The flopping
8) The "swim through" (or whatever it's called) that Kobe/Durant use

9) The overproduction


All of these points could be placed on the college game as well.

Ichabod Drain
06-20-2013, 04:54 PM
Probably the best opposite for "paranoid" is "naive". They are opposite sides of the same spectrum.

The NBA isn't about the unsullied glories of athletic competition to bring out the best in humanity. It is a business. An entertainment business. A business which has as its primary motive to make money. Lots of money. So, folks who think the series is "fixed" or that referees want to control the outcome may be paranoid.

But . . . the NBA makes a lot more money is a 7 game series than a 4 game series. The NBA makes a lot more money when its stars don't foul out and are given incredible freedom to "operate". The NBA makes a lot more money when high profile big-market teams fare well.

To not recognize the reality of that is incredibly naive.

I don't think anyone here doesn't recognize they make more money in a 7 game series than a 4 game series.

Most everyone in America could make some more money if they broke the law.

Duvall
06-20-2013, 05:12 PM
That is actually not AT ALL how I'd characterize effort in those four major sports. I'd say (from least regular-season effort to most): NBA = MLB >>> NHL = NFL.

And that's fine, but it doesn't resemble the way people in general talk about "effort" in professional sports, which is almost always in reference to the NBA regular season.

Duvall
06-20-2013, 05:14 PM
But . . . the NBA makes a lot more money is a 7 game series than a 4 game series.

Do they, though?

The teams do, in gate receipts. And ABC probably does, depending on the ratings. But the NBA's TV deal is the same in a 7-game series and a sweep, right? Hard to see how the league stands to benefit remotely enough to justify the risk that comes with endangering the integrity of the product.

Saratoga2
06-20-2013, 05:30 PM
The players appears to have spent way too much time in tattoo parlors for me. I can't help feeling many of those guys don't share my values. Guys like Duncan, Battier and others buck the trend. There should be more of those people in the game.

Des Esseintes
06-20-2013, 05:46 PM
The players appears to have spent way too much time in tattoo parlors for me. I can't help feeling many of those guys don't share my values. Guys like Duncan, Battier and others buck the trend. There should be more of those people in the game.

Yeah (http://athletetattoodatabase.com/img/wiki_up/tim.duncan1.jpg). Too (http://athletetattoodatabase.com/img/wiki_up/carlos.boozer4.jpg) many (http://nbatattoos.tumblr.com/post/20481520774/chris-duhon) tats (http://www.jjredick.com/redick/blogDetail/1059). No shared values.

Good thing it's a problem unique (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1028695-15-coolest-tattoos-in-mlb-history) to (https://www.google.com/search?q=nhl+tattoos&client=firefox-a&hs=65n&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QnfDUZyJIu6w4AOE1ICQCw&ved=0CC8QsAQ&biw=1920&bih=964) the (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1373421-the-top-10-tattooed-premier-league-stars) NBA (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1599452-the-best-tattoos-of-the-2013-nfl-draft-class). Not at all selectively applying criticisms to the NBA. Nope, nope, nope.

allenmurray
06-21-2013, 10:25 AM
Do they, though?

The teams do, in gate receipts. And ABC probably does, depending on the ratings. But the NBA's TV deal is the same in a 7-game series and a sweep, right? Hard to see how the league stands to benefit remotely enough to justify the risk that comes with endangering the integrity of the product.

Perhaps "League" was the wrong word - the entertainment industry that is NBA basketball makes more money. I may not have been clear.

tommy
06-21-2013, 12:08 PM
Probably the best opposite for "paranoid" is "naive". They are opposite sides of the same spectrum.

The NBA isn't about the unsullied glories of athletic competition to bring out the best in humanity. It is a business. An entertainment business. A business which has as its primary motive to make money. Lots of money. So, folks who think the series is "fixed" or that referees want to control the outcome may be paranoid.

But . . . the NBA makes a lot more money is a 7 game series than a 4 game series. The NBA makes a lot more money when its stars don't foul out and are given incredible freedom to "operate". The NBA makes a lot more money when high profile big-market teams fare well.

To not recognize the reality of that is incredibly naive.

Well, let's see. The NBA finalists this year were San Antonio (TV market 37th largest) vs. Miami (#16). Both have been consistently among the top teams in the league. The semifinalists were Indiana (TV market #25) and Memphis (#48). Had they not had a huge injury in the playoffs, most observers expected Oklahoma City (#45) to make its second straight finals appearance. These are not anywhere close to the biggest market teams in the league. Meanwhile, the Knicks edged forward this year, but basically haven't been relevant for a decade, and even Chicago hasn't made a finals in 15 years. Philadelphia (#4) is consistently terrible, as is (until this year) Golden State (#6) and Washington (#9) is almost always embarrassingly bad as well. Sorry, but I don't think your theory holds water.

Des Esseintes
06-21-2013, 01:03 PM
Well, let's see. The NBA finalists this year were San Antonio (TV market 37th largest) vs. Miami (#16). Both have been consistently among the top teams in the league. The semifinalists were Indiana (TV market #25) and Memphis (#48). Had they not had a huge injury in the playoffs, most observers expected Oklahoma City (#45) to make its second straight finals appearance. These are not anywhere close to the biggest market teams in the league. Meanwhile, the Knicks edged forward this year, but basically haven't been relevant for a decade, and even Chicago hasn't made a finals in 15 years. Philadelphia (#4) is consistently terrible, as is (until this year) Golden State (#6) and Washington (#9) is almost always embarrassingly bad as well. Sorry, but I don't think your theory holds water.

For real. Those borderline calls late in Game 6 of Knicks-Pacers weren't exactly helping New York toward a G7, much less advancement to the next round.

Henderson
06-21-2013, 01:06 PM
I'm not a big NBA fan, in part because there isn't a team for me to adopt in my neck of the woods (Las Vegas). And I share many of the criticisms voiced here. It's such a long season that you see players take plays off, take games off, etc. It's hard to fault the players or coaches on that score. The league set it up that way to generate revenues.

But I'll say this: It's better than it used to be in the era of the illegal defense. The isolation play made it such a boring non-team oriented sport. I swore off NBA basketball until they allowed team defense. And here we are. There are still isolation plays, but defenders can hedge, which makes the isolation play more interesting.

Last night, Doris Burke interviewed D. Wade at half-time, and the sweat was rolling down his chin and dripping on the floor. And the teams played HARD. I appreciated that, even though I know it was Game 7 of the finals.

I also appreciate the fact that most NBA coaches now won't play most players (superstars excepted) who won't or can't play defense. When they draft, they think defensive ability in addition to scoring ability. My subjective impression is that such wasn't the case as much some years ago, when the perceived entertainment value of a high-scoring game was more important than real both-sides-of-the-ball basketball.

So I'm more of an NBA fan than I used to be, because I think it's better basketball than it used to be. And let's face it: We're watching the best basketball players on the planet. Groove on that.

The Gordog
06-21-2013, 01:36 PM
Does anyone hate how this weird NBA fashion (crazy basketball shoes, socks) has infiltrated the lives of people in their early teens? I mean my brother (13 years old) has probably 15 different pairs of high-top basketball shoes and probably 25-30 pairs of these ridiculous mid-calf high socks of strange colors. He probably spends 3-4 minutes putting on his shoes and socks each time (he even has a designated left and right sock). Meanwhile, I probably spend 30 seconds putting on mine (general sneakers and plain white socks)!

Not as much as I hate parents who buy the stuff for their kids. 15 pairs of shoes at minimum $50/pair = $750 of shoes.

brevity
06-21-2013, 01:53 PM
I'm not a big NBA fan, in part because there isn't a team for me to adopt in my neck of the woods (Las Vegas).

Give the NBA Summer League a try, if you haven't already. It's local to you, it's cheap, and this year they're adopting some form of tournament format that sounds like the preseason NIT.

Henderson
06-22-2013, 05:48 PM
Give the NBA Summer League a try, if you haven't already. It's local to you, it's cheap, and this year they're adopting some form of tournament format that sounds like the preseason NIT.

Also-rans are not my cup of tea and definitely not like having an NBA team. I like minor league baseball where the stadium is small, the grass is green, the sun is shining, and the beer is cheap. NBA summer league is like minor league baseball without all that. I can watch Findlay Prep and Bishop Gorman anytime too if I want to watch prospects. I'm talking NBA.

To carry the analogy one more step, as much as I like baseball, AAA isn't even close to the MLB experience.

brevity
06-22-2013, 06:59 PM
Also-rans are not my cup of tea and definitely not like having an NBA team. I like minor league baseball where the stadium is small, the grass is green, the sun is shining, and the beer is cheap. NBA summer league is like minor league baseball without all that. I can watch Findlay Prep and Bishop Gorman anytime too if I want to watch prospects. I'm talking NBA.

To carry the analogy one more step, as much as I like baseball, AAA isn't even close to the MLB experience.

To each his or her own. But to be fair, it's a weird mix of also-rans and rookies, including lottery picks. Last year, when I attended three games over one afternoon, I saw Bradley Beal, Evan Fournier, and Tony Wroten in separate games. I recapped it for DBR here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?28803-2012-NBA-Summer-League&p=586295#post586295). Had I more time I could have seen Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Dion Waiters, Damian Lillard, etc. (Anthony Davis was on the roster but was either injured or with USA Basketball.)

Would I rather have seen Beal play alongside John Wall? Sure, but that wasn't an option. The choice was between (1) the NBA Summer League on my front porch, or (2) nothing.

Newton_14
06-22-2013, 09:36 PM
To each his or her own. But to be fair, it's a weird mix of also-rans and rookies, including lottery picks. Last year, when I attended three games over one afternoon, I saw Bradley Beal, Evan Fournier, and Tony Wroten in separate games. I recapped it for DBR here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?28803-2012-NBA-Summer-League&p=586295#post586295). Had I more time I could have seen Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Dion Waiters, Damian Lillard, etc. (Anthony Davis was on the roster but was either injured or with USA Basketball.)

Would I rather have seen Beal play alongside John Wall? Sure, but that wasn't an option. The choice was between (1) the NBA Summer League on my front porch, or (2) nothing.


See, I could have sit there with you all afternoon and watched those games. Plus you are a funny guy to boot! :)


Someone mentioned it upthread but I also do not like the organ music during NBA games. If I am commish for a day my first act is to ban that. :)