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tommy
05-30-2013, 01:30 AM
Not sure about these, but I'm going to go with (and I swear I did not cheat):

Rick Pitino and Tubby Smith, Kentucky. That's the easy one.
Jud Heathcote and Tom Izzo, Michigan State. THere wasn't another coach in between those two, was there?
Adolph Rupp and Joe B. Hall, Kentucky. Pretty sure but not positive about that one.

Oh, and a fourth would be Frank McGuire and Dean Smith, UNC.

Bob Knight and Mike Davis were close, as Davis got to the NCAA Final before losing to Maryland.

That's all I gots.

theschwartz
05-30-2013, 01:44 AM
Not sure about these, but I'm going to go with (and I swear I did not cheat):

Rick Pitino and Tubby Smith, Kentucky. That's the easy one.
Jud Heathcote and Tom Izzo, Michigan State. THere wasn't another coach in between those two, was there?
Adolph Rupp and Joe B. Hall, Kentucky. Pretty sure but not positive about that one.

Oh, and a fourth would be Frank McGuire and Dean Smith, UNC.

Bob Knight and Mike Davis were close, as Davis got to the NCAA Final before losing to Maryland.

That's all I gots.

Pitino again, this time with Denny Crum at Louisville.

BigWayne
05-30-2013, 03:21 AM
There is one more...Norm Sloan and Jim Valvano.

brevity
05-30-2013, 04:01 AM
Says the front page:


It occurred to us Wednesday that to the best of our knowledge, there is something that has only happened twice in college basketball: that a coach retired having won a national championship during his career and that his immediate successor also won a title during his.

So far we have 6 solid pairings. I have a 7th, but it needs a ruling. Everett Dean left Indiana for Stanford in 1938, and was succeeded by Branch McCracken. McCracken won at Indiana in 1940 and 1953. Everett Dean won at Stanford in 1942. So, technically, Everett Dean retired with a national championship, and his successor won a title as well.

I think the problem is how the question is phrased. It doesn't account for careers that take place in more than one school. Jerry Tarkanian was replaced with Rollie Massimino, for example. The last three coaches at Kansas have at least one national championship in their careers. But we prefer to think that the Jayhawks have a Huckleberry Hound-sized hole between Larry Brown and Bill Self.

Maybe the question could be better stated as: What NCAA Division I men's basketball programs can boast national championships won by a head coach and his immediate successor?

Anyway, I thought I'd add the active head coaches who could help their schools join the intended list:

Mark Turgeon, Maryland
Kevin Ollie, Connecticut

Any others?

Turtleboy
05-30-2013, 06:09 AM
Y'all have a funny definition for "retired". I doubt it means "taking a job somewhere else".

BigWayne
05-30-2013, 10:05 AM
Y'all have a funny definition for "retired". I doubt it means "taking a job somewhere else".
If you are referring to the Everett Dean reference you are not connecting the dots. He had no championship when he went from
Indiana to Stanford. The championship came after he moved to Stanford and before he retired.

BigWayne
05-30-2013, 10:10 AM
Says the front page:



So far we have 6 solid pairings. I have a 7th, but it needs a ruling. Everett Dean left Indiana for Stanford in 1938, and was succeeded by Branch McCracken. McCracken won at Indiana in 1940 and 1953. Everett Dean won at Stanford in 1942. So, technically, Everett Dean retired with a national championship, and his successor won a title as well.

I think the problem is how the question is phrased. It doesn't account for careers that take place in more than one school. Jerry Tarkanian was replaced with Rollie Massimino, for example. The last three coaches at Kansas have at least one national championship in their careers. But we prefer to think that the Jayhawks have a Huckleberry Hound-sized hole between Larry Brown and Bill Self.

Maybe the question could be better stated as: What NCAA Division I men's basketball programs can boast national championships won by a head coach and his immediate successor?

Anyway, I thought I'd add the active head coaches who could help their schools join the intended list:

Mark Turgeon, Maryland
Kevin Ollie, Connecticut

Any others?

Good point. Rereading the question, it's worded almost like a trick question, probably not on purpose. It also could be inferred that it only refers to successors of coaches that have retired, which would exclude Valvano and Tubby.

HaveFunExpectToWin
05-30-2013, 10:13 AM
Oh, and a fourth would be Frank McGuire and Dean Smith, UNC.

And Gut made it to the FF. Luckily, they avoided three in a row.

Turtleboy
05-30-2013, 10:28 AM
If you are referring to the Everett Dean reference you are not connecting the dots. He had no championship when he went from
Indiana to Stanford. The championship came after he moved to Stanford and before he retired.
When did Pitino retire?

Turtleboy
05-30-2013, 10:34 AM
After looking at the answers on the main page, I reiterate; Y'all have a funny definition of "retire".

CDu
05-30-2013, 10:35 AM
If we're extending the term "retired" to "stopped coaching at that school" (which appears to be the case since Pitino and Sloan didn't retire), there is still one pair that is notably missing. Larry Brown was immediately succeeded at Kansas by Roy Williams. Williams didn't win a championship at Kansas, but he has won two titles in his career. By the wording of the question ("one coach leaves with a championship during in his career, the succeeding coach also won a title during his"), Brown/Williams qualifies as well. I'd say the Brown/Williams counts just as much as Sloan/Valvano, because Brown never again coached in college.

Turtleboy
05-30-2013, 10:42 AM
If we're extending the term "retired" to "stopped coaching at that school" Which would mean that every pro athlete who was ever traded retired. Or for that matter any time someone takes another job in the same field of endeavor he retires. In all sincerity, I cannot believe that such an assertion is up for discussion.

BD80
05-30-2013, 10:44 AM
If we're extending the term "retired" to "stopped coaching at that school" (which appears to be the case since Pitino and Sloan didn't retire), there is still one pair that is notably missing. Larry Brown was immediately succeeded at Kansas by Roy Williams. ... Brown never again coached in college.

Ummmm. He's coaching at SMU.

CDu
05-30-2013, 10:49 AM
Ummmm. He's coaching at SMU.

Wow. Had no idea. Still, the point stands. Sloan/Valvano shouldn't be included. Nor should Pitino/Smith. Nor should McGuire/Smith.

Healthcote/Izzo, Rupp/Hall, and Crum/Pitino still qualify.

CDu
05-30-2013, 10:50 AM
Which would mean that every pro athlete who was ever traded retired. Or for that matter any time someone takes another job in the same field of endeavor he retires. In all sincerity, I cannot believe that such an assertion is up for discussion.

I agree. That was half of my point (the other half being that, if we're not using the agreed-upon definition of "retired", then Brown/Williams qualifies).

BD80
05-30-2013, 10:56 AM
Wow. Had no idea. Still, the point stands. ...

Note I didn't say Brown was recruiting, or doing anything that would attract attention ...

tommy
05-30-2013, 12:44 PM
If we're extending the term "retired" to "stopped coaching at that school" (which appears to be the case since Pitino and Sloan didn't retire), there is still one pair that is notably missing. Larry Brown was immediately succeeded at Kansas by Roy Williams. Williams didn't win a championship at Kansas, but he has won two titles in his career. By the wording of the question ("one coach leaves with a championship during in his career, the succeeding coach also won a title during his"), Brown/Williams qualifies as well. I'd say the Brown/Williams counts just as much as Sloan/Valvano, because Brown never again coached in college.

But the big difference is that Sloan won a championship at NC State, and Valvano followed him and also won a championship at NC State. Roy didn't win a championship at Kansas.

The question was not artfully worded, I think we all agree, but I perceived that its intent was to ask what schools have had two consecutive coaches win championships at that school. I missed the word "retired" and that's why I immediately went to Pitino and Tubby, which was wrong as of course Pitino did not retire. But clearly Kansas with Roy doesn't count, because Roy didn't win the big one there.

CDu
05-30-2013, 01:03 PM
But the big difference is that Sloan won a championship at NC State, and Valvano followed him and also won a championship at NC State. Roy didn't win a championship at Kansas.

The question was not artfully worded, I think we all agree, but I perceived that its intent was to ask what schools have had two consecutive coaches win championships at that school. I missed the word "retired" and that's why I immediately went to Pitino and Tubby, which was wrong as of course Pitino did not retire. But clearly Kansas with Roy doesn't count, because Roy didn't win the big one there.

It's sort of hard to tell the intent. "School" is never mentioned in the question, but "retire" certainly is.

If the intent was to only consider those at one school, then I agree with you. But if that was the intent, then it was REALLY poorly worded.

Of course, if the term "retire" is held strictly, then it doesn't matter (as neither is applicable).

Ichabod Drain
05-30-2013, 01:05 PM
Note I didn't say Brown was recruiting, or doing anything that would attract attention ...

Brown landed him a burger boy this year IIRC

CDu
05-30-2013, 01:09 PM
Brown landed him a burger boy this year IIRC

I believe you are correct. I remember thinking "SMU?" when I saw the McDonald's game. It makes a bit more sense now.

BigWayne
05-30-2013, 01:36 PM
When did Pitino retire?Did you see my other post? Lot of nit picking going on with this topic. Probably time to kill it off now. The question is poorly worded as the discussion that goes with it obviously has a specific intent that cannot be lined up with the actual wording of the question.

Turtleboy
05-30-2013, 02:05 PM
Did you see my other post?Which one?


Lot of nit picking going on with this topic.Sorry, "retired" has a specific meaning that excludes continuing employment in the same field. It's not nitpicking, and I can't allow your assertion that it is to stand.


The question is poorly worded as the discussion that goes with it obviously has a specific intent that cannot be lined up with the actual wording of the question.It's only poorly worded if fuzzily alternative definitions for "retired" are introduced. Hence the objection of the "nitpicker". God forbid that anyone should question the status quo around here. It raises them hackles right up, it does.

brevity
05-30-2013, 02:20 PM
Sorry, "retired" has a specific meaning that excludes continuing employment in the same field. It's not nitpicking, and I can't allow your assertion that it is to stand.

While mind-numbingly repetitive, Turtleboy has a point. The original DBR question left a lot of specifics out, but did specifically provide for retirement. You could argue that we're looking for situations where Coach 1 retires at a school, having won a title there, and is succeeded by Coach 2, who goes on to win another title there.

In a philosophical way, this question is about Coach K's successor, and how difficult it is for someone immediately replacing a legend to win a title. The good news is that it's been done before a few times.

The DBR front page followed up with this comment, which sort of negates the purity of their original intent. They seem lost in the makings of their own trivia now:


When we first thought of our trivia question, we came up with Kentucky and Louisville: Adolph Rupp and Joe B. Hall and then Denny Crum and Rick Pitino. We forgot about our local guys and completely forgot that Pitino and Tubby Smith pulled it off at Kentucky too. Here’s the list as we have it so far. Anyone else??

Kentucky – Rupp / Hall
Kentucky – Pitino/Smith
UNC – McGuire / Smith
NCState – Sloan / Valvano
Louisville – Crum / Pitino
Michigan State – Heathcote/Izzo

Turtleboy
05-30-2013, 02:32 PM
While mind-numbingly repetitive, Turtleboy has a point.Good Lord! It's only repetitive because I have to keep defending the same point. Why not accuse those who refuse to concede it as mind numbingly repetitive? Mount another argument and my responses will vary. A close reading of the thread will reveal that I never repeated my assertion except in response to a challenge, or to new information.

rsvman
05-30-2013, 02:48 PM
And Gut made it to the FF...
...with a team that by all rights shouldn't even have received an invitation!


Luckily, they avoided three in a row.
Amen.

BigWayne
05-30-2013, 03:12 PM
It's only poorly worded if fuzzily alternative definitions for "retired" are introduced. Hence the objection of the "nitpicker". God forbid that anyone should question the status quo around here. It raises them hackles right up, it does. My point was that it was poorly worded because the other verbiage in the original post was in conflict with the question. It's somewhat moot at this point since they changed the wording of the question now.