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View Full Version : Could the Phoenix Suns offense work for us?



UrinalCake
05-21-2013, 12:25 AM
Now that Black has made his decision and we know what our roster is going to be, I'm wondering if anyone thinks the Phoenix Suns-style offense could work for us next year. Also dubbed "seven seconds or less," the main principles as I understand them are

- run like crazy every chance you get
- have your shooters space the court on the break so that your point guard has the option to drive or kick out
- try to shoot within the first seven seconds of the shot clock
- generate defense through offense: by constantly attacking and scoring, your opponent is under pressure to score a lot themselves in order to keep up. And the fast pace will wear most teams down.

Ok, so what type of personnel is required to run this type of offense? You need
- an exceptionally smart point guard to drive this engine (Steve Nash)
- a bunch of athletic wings who can also run and also shoot (Shawn Marion, Barbosa, Raja Bell)
- a big man who can run (Amare' Stoudemire)

We seem to have most of these pieces, but it would all hinge on Cook making smart plays and utilizing his excellent quickness, ballhandling, and shooting. We've got a ton of athletic wings and enough depth to run all day. We don't really have a big man, at least until Plumlee is ready, so our center-by-committee will possess good speed. And this would hide what appears to be our biggest weakness - defending against an excellent post man - because anyone playing against us would have to consider taking their big man out in order to keep up with our style of play. At least they would as long as we were winning the game.

I'm sure I've left out a lot as my understanding is pretty rudimentary. I know we tried to run this type of offense in either 2006 or 2007, after Coach K's first run with the National Team when he learned this from D'Antoni himself. It seemed to be only moderately successful then, but this year I think we've got the horses to do it. Even if we don't go completely with this system, I think we'll use many elements of it simply due to our personnel. And defensively I think we'll have to use some full-court press, which I don't recall the Suns doing. So let me know what you think!

Indoor66
05-21-2013, 07:36 AM
Now that Black has made his decision and we know what our roster is going to be, I'm wondering if anyone thinks the Phoenix Suns-style offense could work for us next year. Also dubbed "seven seconds or less," the main principles as I understand them are

- run like crazy every chance you get
- have your shooters space the court on the break so that your point guard has the option to drive or kick out
- try to shoot within the first seven seconds of the shot clock
- generate defense through offense: by constantly attacking and scoring, your opponent is under pressure to score a lot themselves in order to keep up. And the fast pace will wear most teams down.

Ok, so what type of personnel is required to run this type of offense? You need
- an exceptionally smart point guard to drive this engine (Steve Nash)
- a bunch of athletic wings who can also run and also shoot (Shawn Marion, Barbosa, Raja Bell)
- a big man who can run (Amare' Stoudemire)

We seem to have most of these pieces, but it would all hinge on Cook making smart plays and utilizing his excellent quickness, ballhandling, and shooting. We've got a ton of athletic wings and enough depth to run all day. We don't really have a big man, at least until Plumlee is ready, so our center-by-committee will possess good speed. And this would hide what appears to be our biggest weakness - defending against an excellent post man - because anyone playing against us would have to consider taking their big man out in order to keep up with our style of play. At least they would as long as we were winning the game.

I'm sure I've left out a lot as my understanding is pretty rudimentary. I know we tried to run this type of offense in either 2006 or 2007, after Coach K's first run with the National Team when he learned this from D'Antoni himself. It seemed to be only moderately successful then, but this year I think we've got the horses to do it. Even if we don't go completely with this system, I think we'll use many elements of it simply due to our personnel. And defensively I think we'll have to use some full-court press, which I don't recall the Suns doing. So let me know what you think!

Sounds like playing for Roy over at the snooze dome.

CDu
05-21-2013, 08:03 AM
I am not at all concerned about our offense. No matter what style we employ, it will probably be effective. And honestly I don't think Black would have been a focal point anyway.

I am mostly concerned with our defense (specifically post defense) and defensive rebounding.

FerryFor50
05-21-2013, 02:13 PM
Seeing as how the Phoenix Suns offense doesn't really work for them... no. :)

mgtr
05-21-2013, 04:59 PM
Now that Black has made his decision and we know what our roster is going to be, I'm wondering if anyone thinks the Phoenix Suns-style offense could work for us next year. Also dubbed "seven seconds or less," the main principles as I understand them are

- run like crazy every chance you get
- have your shooters space the court on the break so that your point guard has the option to drive or kick out
- try to shoot within the first seven seconds of the shot clock
- generate defense through offense: by constantly attacking and scoring, your opponent is under pressure to score a lot themselves in order to keep up. And the fast pace will wear most teams down.

Ok, so what type of personnel is required to run this type of offense? You need
- an exceptionally smart point guard to drive this engine (Steve Nash)
- a bunch of athletic wings who can also run and also shoot (Shawn Marion, Barbosa, Raja Bell)
- a big man who can run (Amare' Stoudemire)

We seem to have most of these pieces, but it would all hinge on Cook making smart plays and utilizing his excellent quickness, ballhandling, and shooting. We've got a ton of athletic wings and enough depth to run all day. We don't really have a big man, at least until Plumlee is ready, so our center-by-committee will possess good speed. And this would hide what appears to be our biggest weakness - defending against an excellent post man - because anyone playing against us would have to consider taking their big man out in order to keep up with our style of play. At least they would as long as we were winning the game.


Shades of Loyola-Marymount! They were fun to watch, but not really very successful.

throatybeard
05-22-2013, 02:02 PM
I thought it was 2008 when we ran it.

Kedsy
05-22-2013, 02:04 PM
I thought it was 2008 when we ran it.

You are correct.

antseg
05-22-2013, 02:12 PM
If it means Kennedy Meeks running up and down the court a few times, then I'm all for it.

EARTHQUAKE

CDu
05-22-2013, 02:21 PM
I thought it was 2008 when we ran it.

To be fair, I don't think we really ever ran D'Antoni's offense. We incorporated the weave into the offense, but I wouldn't call that the defining attribute of D'Antoni's offense.

The main reason that we never saw D'Antoni's offense is that we didn't have a PG capable of running it. Our starting PG at that time (Paulus) was just too limited, either due to lack of athleticism or lack of confidence or injury or some combination of all three. You need a PG with terrific court vision and tremendous strength of ballhandling. That's why Nash and (to a lesser degree) Duhon did so well in the system. Both are tremendous ballhandlers and both see the court extremely well. Paulus at times showed good court vision, but his struggles with ballhandling prevented him from being able to maximize that skill.

jv001
05-22-2013, 02:23 PM
To be fair, I don't think we really ever ran D'Antoni's offense. We incorporated the weave into the offense, but I wouldn't call that the defining attribute of D'Antoni's offense.

The main reason that we never saw D'Antoni's offense is that we didn't have a PG capable of running it. Our starting PG at that time (Paulus) was just too limited, either due to lack of athleticism or lack of confidence or injury or some combination of all three. You need a PG with terrific court vision and tremendous strength of ballhandling. That's why Nash and (to a lesser degree) Duhon did so well in the system. Both are tremendous ballhandlers and both see the court extremely well. Paulus at times showed good court vision, but his struggles with ballhandling prevented him from being able to maximize that skill.

Man, what might have been with Kyrie running D'Antoni's offense. I just don't want D'Antoni's defense. GoDuke!

CDu
05-22-2013, 02:26 PM
Man, what might have been with Kyrie running D'Antoni's offense. I just don't want D'Antoni's defense. GoDuke!

Yeah, Irving would have been an absolute force in an offense like that. I mean, he'd be an absolute force in ANY offense, but especially D'Antoni's offense.

UrinalCake
05-22-2013, 03:49 PM
If it means Kennedy Meeks running up and down the court a few times, then I'm all for it.

EARTHQUAKE

In all seriousness, that's one of the main benefits to us running this offense. We've all been obsessing lately over who is going to defend the 5 now that we don't have a big body. By running early and often, the Meeks's and Reggie Johnsons of the world will have a hard time staying in the game.

A couple weeks ago I heard a discussion on ESPN over whether Jordan's bulls teams would beat the current Miami Heat. One commentator pointed out that the Bulls wouldn't be able to play any of their centers because none of them could keep up with Bosh, and they weren't high enough scorers to make up for it on the other end. I think we can employ a similar strategy by using a Phoenix offense or something similar to it; since we can't match up size-wise with an opposing big, we'll have to force them out of the game. And this style would play well to our strengths at the 1-4 positions. Plus it's entertaining as heck and the players like it.

CDu
05-22-2013, 04:02 PM
In all seriousness, that's one of the main benefits to us running this offense. We've all been obsessing lately over who is going to defend the 5 now that we don't have a big body. By running early and often, the Meeks's and Reggie Johnsons of the world will have a hard time staying in the game.

A couple weeks ago I heard a discussion on ESPN over whether Jordan's bulls teams would beat the current Miami Heat. One commentator pointed out that the Bulls wouldn't be able to play any of their centers because none of them could keep up with Bosh, and they weren't high enough scorers to make up for it on the other end. I think we can employ a similar strategy by using a Phoenix offense or something similar to it; since we can't match up size-wise with an opposing big, we'll have to force them out of the game. And this style would play well to our strengths at the 1-4 positions. Plus it's entertaining as heck and the players like it.

At the risk of veering way off topic, I'd say that the Bulls would have actually relished playing small. Their centers (Cartwright and then Longley) were always the fifth option on the floor anyway. Their main purpose was essentially to try to neutralize (to the best of their abilities) the opposing team's center. The engines of those Bulls teams were the SG, SF, and PF, not the C.

The 1996-1998 Bulls teams would have LOVED to have gone with a Harper/Jordan/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman lineup. In fact, they went to that lineup fairly frequently. The 1991-1993 teams would have been just fine taking Cartright out and playing Levingston or Williams or King at center with Paxson (or Armstrong), Jordan, Pippen, and Grant.

That being said, I would not be at all surprised if we tried to press more and tried to run more. We'll certainly have the athletes and the depth to do so. And that is certainly a way to try to counter a lack of size/defense at the 5.

superdave
05-22-2013, 04:03 PM
You can run more on offense, and speed up your opponent on defense without totally abandoning defense the way D'Antoni occasionally does.

A quick perusal of the stats - Duke averaged 83 per game in 2008, which is a few over what we've done the last 5 years on average. The last time our scoring was really evidence of an elite running team was 2002 at 89 per game. But we ran with two guards, a big who could run the floor, two wings still in the NBA today and some other nice pieces (including Andre Buckner, thank you.).

Could we see Rasheed and Quinn push the pace a lot? More so than this year, yes. I'd say Thornton and Hairston are two guys who will get minutes and will not contribute to a running game though.

My initial reaction is we have the depth to do this, but unless it emerges early on, we will only see a slight uptick in transition buckets.

CDu
05-22-2013, 04:13 PM
Could we see Rasheed and Quinn push the pace a lot? More so than this year, yes. I'd say Thornton and Hairston are two guys who will get minutes and will not contribute to a running game though.

My initial reaction is we have the depth to do this, but unless it emerges early on, we will only see a slight uptick in transition buckets.

It depends. If Hairston and/or Plumlee see a lot of time, it will be harder to run than when they aren't in the game. But let's not get crazy here. Boozer was hardly an up-tempo player - even back at Duke. His game was always better suited for a half-court style of play. The up-tempo style was really driven by having 3-4 capable ballhandlers with terrific athleticism on the court at all times, and a very capable outlet passer in Boozer. Any of Williams, Duhon, Jones, Dunleavy, and Ewing could start the break, and they could all get out and fill the lanes, too.

The difference between Hairston/Plumlee and Boozer is that neither Hairston nor Plumlee have shown the ability to be elite defensive rebounders or outlet passers. So I agree that it isn't likely that we could run as much when they're in the game. Of course, when they are in the game, the concern about size (weight-wise at least) at the 5 is mitigated somewhat.

But when we have Parker and Jefferson on the floor together, we presumably have 5 guys capable of playing transition basketball. That's true even when Thornton is in the game. No, Thornton is not an offensive dynamo suited to lead a fast break offense. But he has terrific court awareness and could certainly fill the lanes on a break (if that break was started by, say, Sulaimon, or Hood, or Parker). And with the added benefit of a speedy 5 man, we could offset some of Thornton's lack of speed.

But in Parker, Jefferson, Hood, Sulaimon, Cook, and Dawkins (not to mention Murphy and Ojeleye, though I'm less certain they'll see much time on the floor), we certainly have the horses to get out and run. And a lineup of Parker, Jefferson, Hood/Dawkins, Sulaimon/Dawkins, and Cook/Thornton screams up-tempo offense to me.

superdave
05-22-2013, 04:48 PM
It depends. If Hairston and/or Plumlee see a lot of time, it will be harder to run than when they aren't in the game. But let's not get crazy here. Boozer was hardly an up-tempo player - even back at Duke. His game was always better suited for a half-court style of play. The up-tempo style was really driven by having 3-4 capable ballhandlers with terrific athleticism on the court at all times, and a very capable outlet passer in Boozer. Any of Williams, Duhon, Jones, Dunleavy, and Ewing could start the break, and they could all get out and fill the lanes, too.

The difference between Hairston/Plumlee and Boozer is that neither Hairston nor Plumlee have shown the ability to be elite defensive rebounders or outlet passers. So I agree that it isn't likely that we could run as much when they're in the game. Of course, when they are in the game, the concern about size (weight-wise at least) at the 5 is mitigated somewhat.

But when we have Parker and Jefferson on the floor together, we presumably have 5 guys capable of playing transition basketball. That's true even when Thornton is in the game. No, Thornton is not an offensive dynamo suited to lead a fast break offense. But he has terrific court awareness and could certainly fill the lanes on a break (if that break was started by, say, Sulaimon, or Hood, or Parker). And with the added benefit of a speedy 5 man, we could offset some of Thornton's lack of speed.

But in Parker, Jefferson, Hood, Sulaimon, Cook, and Dawkins (not to mention Murphy and Ojeleye, though I'm less certain they'll see much time on the floor), we certainly have the horses to get out and run. And a lineup of Parker, Jefferson, Hood/Dawkins, Sulaimon/Dawkins, and Cook/Thornton screams up-tempo offense to me.

I agree with you. I am hoping for more focus on this uptempo offense. It can put a lot of pressure on other teams to score with us.

Could we see another leap out of Quinn this year? I have a strong feeling we will out of Rasheed.

CDu
05-22-2013, 04:57 PM
I agree with you. I am hoping for more focus on this uptempo offense. It can put a lot of pressure on other teams to score with us.

Could we see another leap out of Quinn this year? I have a strong feeling we will out of Rasheed.

I am very hopeful that we see a jump from both Cook and Sulaimon. And I feel pretty confident that we will. Both guys seem pretty driven to succeed. If they do that and if Parker and Hood are as good as anticipated, it does take a lot of pressure off of the Jefferson/Plumlee/Hairston combo.

We really need both Cook and Sulaimon to be more reliable. Both were very up and down last year. Thankfully we had Mason and Curry to pick us up most nights (occasionally Kelly, too). But next year, this team is going to be MUCH more reliant on those two guys to make the offense go. And they need to be up to the challenge.